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Interview: Ask the Internet Political Activists
Jonah Seiger and Shabbir Safdar own Mindshare Internet Campaigns, a Washington DC consulting firm that specializes in online political campaigning. Jonah and Shabbir are geeks who originally got into political activism by working to defeat political attempts to muzzle free expression on the Internet. Now they've turned pro -- very successfully -- but they're still avid Slashdot readers, and they're happy to answer questions about how the Internet is gaining acceptance as a political tool, and how you can use it to further your favorite cause or candidate. Please post your questions as comments below. Slashdot moderators and assorted dancing hamsters will pick 10 or 12 of them to forward. Answers will be posted Friday.
Or drug obsessed losers like yourself.
Or idiots like you. [MicroLITH1@yahoo.com]
That is very messed up.
[MicroLITH1@yahoo.com]
What do you think the "mainstream" media have been belching out for the last fifty years, the truth? The Internet finally gives real people the opportunity to share information and state their opinions, all without government-approved media conglomerates filtering out what is "offensive" or "dangerous" to their hegemony.
It's up to you and me to be the "filters," if you aren't up to the task, then go watch Dan Rather and enjoy life in The Matrix.
Moderators will pick questions to forward? Um, why don't we open-source this a little? Everyone, _vote_ for the questions you want forwarded/answered by replying to the question with a subject of "Ask this one!" It will be obvious from the number of replies which questions the /.ers want answered.
The internet is a US creation. If you don't want play by our rules, don't hook up to it. It's just that simple.
I suspect that it is a hopeless cause but is there anything that can be done to revoke the obscene extension of copyright that Mickey Mouse and Sonny Bono (before his apparently not-soon-enough death) succeeded in pushing through that collection of corporate sponsers known as 'Congress'?
It will happen as soon as you're ready to pay for "free" Internet access for every loser who's too lazy to earn the money to buy it on his own. Is that what you really want? What if I don't? Are you going to ask the government to steal even more money from me for this hairbrained scheme?
How about starting out by clamping down on election fraud? In the age of crooked elections, not only are both parties looking the other way, some actually have the brass balls to advocate granting the franchise to illegal aliens!
Maybe forcing Congress to return to the correct proportion of representation would be a good thing, too. The House of Representatives would be so large and difficult to manage that they would only be able to meet for a very short period of time every session and could only concentrate on a few bills at a time. As it stands now, these jerks produce volumes of useless/harmful legislation every session--they have too much free time on their hands.
What is the moral basis of the authority of the State? Why should we participate in electoral politics rather than abolishing them entirely?
all i have to say is HARRY BROWN. vote, damn you.
Could you actaully influence your senator/house rep to vote for/against a bill by saying, "I have registered -sucks.com and will post how you helped destroy free speech and I will list it in search engines, etc."
Power to the People.
If you are planning to use E-mail for your candidates campaigns, are you also planning to use OPT-IN (as you should be), or were you simply planning on adding to the spam problem?
What works on the internet? All the political pages are lame rewrite of brochures designed not to offend Jane Smith, 45 yr. old housewife (the average voter). Do politicos just not get it?
Re:Representative politics. by Solemn Bob on Monday August 09, @01:15PM EDT (#) (User Info) I don't have a homepage. >We can't all be bothered to make educated decisions on every issue that the government has to deal with.
This makes me laugh out loud. You have seen some of the crap out legislators spew forth haven't you. I don't believe that even _they_ make educated decisions on every issue.
Personally, I'd be happy to participate in a direct democracy. Even a baby-step would be interesting, why not start a movement to amend the US constitution to allow an initiative process.
How likely do you think that the gov't will require computers to use ID tags(like a car's license plate)? And require all users to have license to operate the machine(they could be id'd through any one or more of available bio-tec devices) I remember hearing about requiring programmers to have a license. This is only one step further. Do you find it outrageous that in addition to crypto being a munition, the gov't could consider the computer as a munition, also?(maybe they already do) And later as a deadly weapon requiring gov't approval to operate? It appears some in the gov't would like to have them banned as assault weapons in its "cyberwar".
oh my god....talk about some one being a fricking retard-o! don't you look all big and mighty!
hoo boy, you thought the melissa virus was bad... wait til you see the ventura virus.
There has been a lot of discussion about taxing purchases that take place over the internet. I am curious what your thoughts are concerning this issue. We now live in a country where just about everything we do is taxed, even when we die. Wouldn't it be great if we could prevent our congressional leaders from taxing the internet!
>It will happen as soon as you're ready to pay for "free" Internet access for every
>loser who's too lazy to earn the money to buy it on his own
Huh? If someone doesn't have a PC and a 'net connection at home, he cal go to his uusual polling place. They will have the terminal there. Paying for 'net access for people who only need it at most a few times per year is stupid.
Get a clue.
The American electoral process is tightly controlled by Big Money. * Candidates for national office must raise several millions of dollars to have any chance at all of getting elected. * Most American voters received their news from commercial sources: TV, newspaper, info-tainment mags. * Whichever candidate wins the election, his/her legislative decisions are influenced by aggressive teams of lobbyists. Now don't get me wrong, the folks at Mindshare Internet Campaigns are offering a wonderful service. But I'd imagine there are plenty of deep-pocketed individuals, groups, and corporations who'd love to make use of Mindshare too. In a bigger way than you or I ever could afford to. So tell me again how this benefits democracy?
They have an uncontrollable tendency to yammer, that's all. Furthermore, very few of them really are libertarians in any kind of a literal sense. Most of them seem to be garden-variety right wingers but with a slightly different focus. Or, to put it another (and probably more accurate) way: They'll gladly tolerate absolutely any degree of tyranny, censorship, and theocracy in government as long as their taxes go down and they get to keep their guns. Bleagh. Who needs it?
What do they say? "He who gives up a little freedom to gain a little security deserves and gets neither" -- indeed. Oh, yes indeed. See above. On the other hand, all of life is a matter of trading freedom for security. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch": It's just a question of what kind of a bargain you drive. I'm not free to sleep in until noon on weekdays and then drink my breakfast; in return for giving up that freedom, I get a regular paycheck. It's called adulthood. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
Why NOT? Proposition names have no correlation with their content and Corporate Citizenry lobby their own legislative loopholes via Dollar Diplomacy making it impossible to capture *issues* via printed ballot. ONLY people whose interests could be challenged by more accessible polling places feel threatened, risking easier, simpler, more convenient and participatory a democracy.
What is the big ph33r over people voting by computer. Ballots are already counted up by computer in big city and state and national elections. And fully electronic voting booths are already in use (see Clark County, NV) throughout the country. Voters can already vote from home via mail-in (absentee) ballots. Voting from one's own home PC is just the next logical step and is no riskier than any of the other methods mentioned above (mail-in ballots are far more open to fraud). It's like these people who come to Las Vegas and avoid slot machines with a computer screen and instead going to the slots with mechanical reels becasue "they aren't fixed like them computerized thangs". The reel slots decide the outcome of the game within a few microseconds of your hitting the "spin" button just like the video slots. They're ALL computerized now. The CPU then just spins the reels for a while and stops them when they get to the already decided symbol.
Funding religious proselytization is not cool, and don't kid yourself that anything else would come of it. He's talking about taking some random churches and delegating to them the authority to decide who benefits from certain social services. We can certainly debate whether or not those "social services" should be funded by the government at all (I have my doubts), but if they must be, they should be managed even-handedly. I have a problem with all of this. Imagine the reaction if GWB announced that he was going to hand over control of "social services" to Muslim organizations. How would you feel about that? Not so damn good, I suspect (assuming that you're not a Muslim already).
Most legislation is pushed through by the well funded special intrest groups. No one does anything for the people anymore. Otherwise, it truly would not matter who was elected to office as they would be representing their constituients REGARDLESS of their own personal opinions. But that doesn't happen anymore. People actually look at what issues candidates support and then vote based on that! They don't even realize how screwed up the system is! They just prepetuate it.
>* Apathy.
.you pick).
How is this a problem? Assuming the polls were right, we wouldn't have gone into Kosovo, but we still would've intervened in Kuwait. I'll let you decide which one did more to help America's interests in the _____-term (short,long,medium. .
It seems to me that the American people do a better job of prioritization than our current government.
>While only funding things that the masses appear to care about might be a dream for some, it'd be a nightmare for most.
Exactly how would it be a nightmare for most? I think it would be a nightmare for people who need a large amount of government services.
I don't think most people fit into the above category.
>* Education.
This is probably true to an extent. However, the current system allows for a tyranny of the special interest. Which would work harder against the majority's interest, the tyranny of the majority or the lobbyists?
If you don't believe the government should serve the majority's interest, I'd be interested to know:
1) why not
2) whose interests should they serve
>* Scalability: it doesn't.
How is this different from the current situation? It appears to me that the activist minority oftentimes _already_ controls a political debate with good _and_ bad results.
I would say that given _real_ necessity, the American people tend to organize themselves and build consensus quickly. I think most anyone who has been in a natural disaster understands this to be true.
>* Coherence, or lack of it.
I agree with this statement. I believe this relates to the "bureaucracy problem" below.
>* In reality, the current system works reasonably
>well.
This is your opinion. Personally, I think your opinion would be in the minority.
I think there is a large disenfranchised majority in the US. Not disenfranchised as in unable to vote, but disenfranchised in that they could give a fsck about government programs like EEO, AA, or the ADA (which _appear_ to a casual observer to be _the_ driving force behind the current administration's policies).
Off-topic:
The fascinating paradox is that these program have the _exact_ opposite effect that they are intended to have. By trying to unite everyone by valuing "differences", they actually separate people by emphasizing the differences. This is surprising because people who study group dynamics commonly accept the principle that emphasizing "sameness" in a group setting is what is necessary to unite a group. As I write this, it makes me wonder if the invisible "them" wants to keep "us" separate.
BTW: I think direct democracy does have one extremely large (insurmountable???) potential problem--the bureaucracy charged with enforcing the will of the people. I believe a direct democracy would give bureacrats even more power than they currently have. This seems to me to be a bad thing.
Hardware on foreign soil is not under the jurisdiction of the US government. It's subject to the laws of the country where it's located. Furthermore, the people who own it, OWN it. It's theirs, you miserable parasite, not yours and certainly not Bob Barr's.
Or are you suggesting that since TCP/IP was developed on US soil, then the US government somehow "owns" anything that uses it? Well, under US law, you're wrong -- barring a contractual agreement to the contrary (and if you disagree, please write a check to Italy in consideration for your use of your radio). Since TCP/IP is an open standard, anybody can implement it and use it without restrictions.
Jesus Christ, how dumb can people be?
http:\\homebase.freespam.net\DonaldDuck4Preside
I got a 404 on that -- even after I fixed your billy-boy backwards slashes.
Ha ha joke. Ha ha. Except about the slashes. Those really annoyed me.
There was a flap some time ago when it was learned that most of our elected officials admitted that they wouldn't vote in favor of the first 10 amendments (the Bill of Rights) if it were placed in front of them as new legislation.
The same has been done with ordinary Americans, who were overwhelmingly opposed.
It's no shock, really.
Well, Sonny Bono did us all a wrong we're still stuck with today. And all because Disney doesn't want any of it's products to become public domain. Walt has been dead for decades. Mickey Mouse should be free now.Patents expire for a reason: To give the creator time to profit and then make his creation available for the common good.Imagine if Bach/Beethovens/Vivaldi/etc. descendents claimed that they still own the musical works and demanded royalties?
Wow! You've just won the "Idiot of the Month" Award! Given only to those who babble on about things when they have no idea what they're talking about! (ahem) You, sir, have no idea what libertarians support or oppose. I write this response only in case someone glancing through the posts might actually believe you.
The senior citizens always have the largest turnout because they're retired. The rest of us are working our butts off to, in part, keep sending those old people their monthly Social Security checks.
We don't have TIME to march on Capital Hill. I'd sure like to, though. With guns loaded and armored support.... ah, well, it's a dream.
How can we block UCITA from being adopted by the States? Can Federal laws override this disaster-in-the-making? Tim Daly daly@mhv.net
What is the moral basis of the authority of the State?
There isn't one.
The authority of the State is neither moral, nor immoral. It has nothing to do with morals at all. It has to do with who has the most guns.
You might as well ask what moral authority the Sun has to shine on the planet Earth.
Why should we participate in electoral politics rather than abolishing them entirely?
Your question implies that there exists some element of choice in the matter. While you can choose "not to participate" (i.e., choose to neither vote nor stand for election), as a practical matter you do not have the choice to abolish them entirely. The people who want the current system to continue have more power than you do.
So when some non-US site signs up for their internet feed from the US ('net was US-only in the past), didn't they agree to follow our rules? Were they not required to impose those same rules to sites who hook up to them in order to keep their own feed? Thus, US rules should have been propagated with the spread of the 'net. What happened? Who is offering unrestricted 'net feeds?
Buy more bullets while you can. Also buy the means to make the bullets, and the means to clean and polish used brass, and a fair amount of gunpowder, and the means to handload your own cartridges.
For the senior citizens, going out to vote may be the only "outing" they go on that month. It's like a day trip to them.
The 18-25 year olds, after being treated like slaves for the first 18 years of their life, haven't gotten used to the idea of being "free" yet.
How about a short and pointed message written on parchment, tied to an arrow; shoot the arrow so it hits right in front of the congressscum as he/she/it is out walking around? It would sure grab their attention, you must admit.
Please remember that shooting the arrow INTO the congressscum is simply bad manners.
Do you have a pointer to this? I'd be interested in seeing who voted how? Personally, I don't think some of the bill of rights don't go far enough--second and fifth amendment. I'd like to get rid of the well-regulated militia phrase in the second amendment. Similarly, I'd like to extend the fifth amendment to include the ability to refuse to do things like take a court-ordered blood test (it seems to me to be self-incriminating).
>Most of them seem to be garden-variety right wingers but with a slightly different focus. Or, to put it another (and probably more accurate) way: They'll gladly tolerate absolutely any degree of tyranny, censorship, and theocracy in government as long as their taxes go down and they get to keep their guns.
A point about writing, when people state their opinion they usually put something like "I think" or "In my opinion" at the beginning of a sentence.
It's interesting that you called your second statement "probably more accurate." I'd be fascinated to have someone explain to me how a gross generalization can be thought of as "more accurate."
With regards to your second statement, it is quite remarkable to see an argument based on ridiculing a paraphrased quote from Benjamin Franklin (which actually started with Thomas Gibbon I believe).
Anyhow, that was a bit ad hominem. I believe the problem with trading liberty for security is that the trade isn't a gift that keeps on giving. It's not at all clear that a bit o'liberty traded today results in a long-term gain in security.
I believe the problem with trading liberty for security is that the trade isn't a gift that keeps on giving. It's not at all clear that a bit o'liberty traded today results in a long-term gain in security.
Uh, what was that about "gross generalizations"?
With regards to your second statement, it is quite remarkable to see an argument based on ridiculing a paraphrased quote from Benjamin Franklin (which actually started with Thomas Gibbon I believe).
A) It's quite remarkable to see the number of "Libertarians" (not all, I'm sure, just the vocal ones) who think that hauling out a pithy quotation (often that one) proves something.
B) In what way was I "ridiculing" it?
While I'm on wasting my money, why does congress keep wasting time and resources on bills and laws that are clearly in violation of the constitution?
Why shouldn't they? There is no punishment for passing laws against the constitution. Heck, even if it gets dragged through the courts all the way to the Supreme Court, the old coots might just approve it anyway. And the people have proven over and over that they will not punish Congressthings that vote for these laws, neither by voting them out nor tarring and feathering them.
Now, if when they voted for such things, we put a bunch of them up against the wall... (sorry, dreaming again)
The CDA, CDAII, Crypto controls...? If cryptography is a munition, don't citizens have a right to bear arms?
There you go, thinking logically like some kind of programmer or something. Laws don't have to be consistent or anything. Pointing that kind of thing out just makes your FBI file that much thicker.....
Actually it would do us good if they cut off trade relations. We loose more money than we make in trade with china.
true christians don't want to convert the world forcefully, as you seem to assume they will.
I'm not worried about "true christians" -- assuming that we're both defining such people as "those who make a sincere and serious effort to follow Christ's example in their daily life". They don't worry me much at all. What worries me is the majority of people who call themselves Christians. The Rushdoony goons may be 'way out on the fringe, but they're not the only ones, and they do want to force the rest of us to obey the tenets of their religion. That's not precisely equivalent to conversion, but it's close enough to be a problem.
it's silly to assume that religious organizations automatically won't be even-handed in how they hand out assistance
Historically, most religious groups (e.g. the Salvation Army) do help people, but only while (at best) beating them over the head with religion. Look, you're talking about handing over the task of feeding people to groups which believe that it's more important to get into heaven than to be fed -- and that their religion is the only way to get into heaven. Honestly, I'd be a bit suspicious of any "christian" who thought salvation was optional, you know? Some groups, of course, happen to think that providing a Christlike example is a better magnet for converts than beating people senseless with the Bible -- but that's not all of 'em by any means.
[it's] more than it's silly to assume that non-religious organizations will do the same thing.
I don't agree with you on that, for reasons given above. A Christian church is in the business (so to speak) of saving souls. A soup kitchen as such is in the business (again, so to speak) of handing out soup. No organization composed of human beings will ever be anywhere near perfect, but you play the odds.
Finally, I think we've seen throughout history what happens when religions start getting mixed up with government. It's as bad for the religion as it is for the government. Power corrupts. Christ wasn't in the business of civil administration, as far as I can tell from what I've read in the gospels. Nor do I think He really cared to be.
Giving up your freemdom, on the other hand, means you don't have any choice in the matter any more. You've truly given up the right to decide for yourself.
I think both Heinlein and Hemingway have said in various ways that you can always choose to die fighting. Yeah, that's a piss-poor choice, but it is a choice, and it's as much of a choice as anybody gets in some situations. In my ever-so-humble opinion, that's a stronger example than choosing to quit one's job, but not fundamentally different. The fact that quitting my job is a realistic choice has a lot to do with the fact that I live in the U.S., where we have enormous security -- which arguably has been paid for, in part, by our handing over some odd bits of freedom. There are people in this world who have a choice of working or starving. Yeah, they can choose to starve. Yeah, also: If we handed over all of our freedom, we'd be screwed and our wealth wouldn't be worth much. So let's not do that, okay? To me it still looks like a balance that you strike between freedom and security. I don't think we're striking a terribly bad balance at the moment. Then again, maybe it's the Libertarians and whatnot out on the fringes keeping us from swinging too far one way or the other, keeping us in balance. Who knows?
You, sir, have no idea what libertarians support or oppose.
The rantings of right-wing nuts are something of a hobby of mine. I base my views of people who call themselves "Libertarians" on the writings of people who call themselves "Libertarians". I'm sure that's a terribly unfair thing to do, but you're just going to have to deal with that.
I'm guessing you were once out-argued by a Libertarian, and now you hold a grudge against all of them.
I've found it a very rare thing to see any kind of coherent or convincing argument out of a "Libertarian". Mostly they just recite famous quotations about Liberty, and wax otherwise poetic. They seem like dealing in vague generalities and Absolute Truths. It's depressing.
I am sure the vast majority of them hold their entire ideal to be true.
Yeah, I know they believe themselves to be sincere and honest. They're good at making excuses for their own inconsistencies.
This is the original AC who doesn't like "Libertarians".
I think we've already hit the point of diminishing returns for our exchanges of freedom for security. Actually we've sailed on past it. Now we're limiting people's rights to even link to other information on the web. That's not helping anyone and it is going to hurt those who want information. There are lots of other examples of stupid laws that don't do much to help but do quite a bit to harm.
The "War on Drugs" is a good example, too. But IMHO the fact that you've swerved into the ditch (the CDA) doesn't necessarily mean that you must henceforth drive in the oncoming lane (libertarianism). There's always a middle way, and it's usually worth following. Extremism in the defense of anything is a vice, and moderation in the pursuit of anything is usually a virtue. I'm a fanatical moderate! Hear me roar!
It was a joke, Oops. Duh. I bit, didn't I? . . . but it isn't really. I couldn't agree more.
Politics aside, Sonny was a straight shooter who never gave up, even when everyone told him to quit.
I just realized that you can say precisely the same of Adolf Hitler. I know this proves absolutely nothing about anybody or anything, least of all Mr. Bono, but it does seem to suggest that you can't really put politics aside.
Just to be sure: I do not believe, nor would I ever care to suggest, that Sonny Bono advocated, endorsed, or implemented any of the policies for which Adolf Hitler has become known in the international arena.
You could take a lesson or two from him, we all could.
Oh, god, it's going to come out . . . I can't stop it! Hellpp! Helllppp! No, no no! AARRGGHH! Don't let me say it! Please, for the love of god, no! Noooo! Argh, I'm gonna say it, I can't help it . . .
A-hem.
You mean skiing lessons?
Can I invoke Godwin's Law on myself? Sure I can! Yeeeehaaaa!
:)
You say that "not many people would work in the sewers for the good of their fellow man, they would only do it to get paid." If I follow you, then they should be forced to work in the sewers by the government?
You just made that one right up off the top of your head. He's talking about paying people to work in sewers. Okay? That's what he said! You even quote him saying it. So what's the problem? Why did you have to invent this "force" thing?
Did you read the post above from the guy who doesn't like Libertarians? Well, you're the reason for people like that. Congrats. Thanks for making the rest of us look like cranks and lunatics.
That's your answer?? Is getting paid to do a job just too immoral for you??
You're out of your mind. I'm sorry, but you're addressing things he never said. You've just shot off on a bizarre tangent attacking a strawman that the rest of us can't even see.
they think in slogans and don't look at things logically.
yes we could make machines that take care of other machines. so NO people would have to do anything... other then creative work. not the crated work.
I rest his case.
If it lives and lasts, it works. If the people are reasonably happy, so much the better. If it fails, it dies and something else takes its place. If it shits too hard on too many of its constituents for too long, they'll sooner or later do what they can to make it fail.
People create social organizations -- including governments, which are not imposed on us from above by magical forces -- in order to make their lives easier. They create the ones that seem wise at the time, and the ones that last are the ones that change over time to address current conditions.
As for morality: Baptists think sex outside of marraige is "immoral". Eskimos, traditionally, didn't. If they'd been "moral", they'd've died out centuries ago due to inbreeding among small isolated populations. That's what most "morality" is all about: If it's wise to wear earmuffs in a snowstorm, then it must be an offense against God to take them off in July. In reality, all worthwhile morals (and many are) are local, conditional, and entirely pragmatic. Take 'em for what they're worth but don't lose a whole lot of sleep over it.
yeah, I know what you're all about you whining fascist freak! get the fuck out of this country and go to fucking iceland where they fucking fuck fucking ducks all fucking day you goddamn dirtball. you'll be happier there fucking your fucking ducks.
gawd, you liberals make me sick.
It's coming, folks. The black helicopters are from Calgary, and you knew it all along. Don't kid yourself. It's us or them. God will sustain us in this terrible battle, but only if we use nukes.
Don't say that, man, just don't fucking say that.
Stop LOOKING at me, nonononononooooo don't stop stop stop stop stop eaaaaggghhhhh DON'T PUT THAT THING ON ME! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
*click*.
People of Earth, this is your last warning.
At 9:00 AM EST, 8/10/99, your planet will be returned to a pristine state.
Thank you and have a nice day.
p.s. It would be a good idea to wear clean underwear at the moment of annihilation. Thank you again.
Yeah, go right ahead. You just try it. But let me warn you, buster: You go annihilating my ass and you're gonna be in a world of trouble when I find you.
So watch yourself.
But I'm still probably unconvinceable anyway.
I'll have a squint at the quiz you mentioned. Lemme know how Seth did
hehhehehhheheheheh
:)
It labeled me, dammit!
I think it labeled me more or less correctly, but who can really say?
"Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus responded, 'My kingdom is not of this world.'"
Hooo-boy! Tell that to Gee Dubya Bush! Or better yet, to Buchanan, Rushdoony, all the rest. Good heavens.
It was very interesting to see this post, as I am attempting to use the internet for just such a campaign -- http://www.yale.edu/gaso
It seems to be a fantastic medium (Marshall McLuhan, anybody?), in many ways the perfect means for a zero/low budget effort to be effective against enormous budget opposition. However, I wonder if Mesrrs. Seiger and Safda have an obvious solution to an obvious logistical problem -- those people who make the effort to visit a political webpage are either (1) predisposed to agree, and the visit was therefore largely commiserative, or (2) the effort's opponents who are performing reconnaissance, and aren't likely to be converted. In order for a webpage to make any difference, it must be visited by those who are "on the fence," and even more difficult, the apathetic. As visiting the webpage takes active effort from the audience, it seems that it can only be effective if it is coupled with in-your-face advertising, which (1) I despise, (2) seems to defeat much of the point of having used the web in the first place, and (3) precludes small budget efforts from having the voice that they had at the beginning of this post.
Is there an obvious approach that I'm missing?
Why don't you just call them racist, sexist, Nazi, woman-beating, KKK sympathizers and smugly end the discussion?
Because those things aren't true. The things I did say, are true -- not only true, but widely known and frequently demonstrated. You're a good example yourself. If I claim that the sky is blue will you demand that I post the sky on Slashdot, or else shut up? Yeah, you probably will. Twit.
Ummm ... aren't you more-or-less quoting Thomas Jefferson there? (More precisely, "a wall of separation between church and state".) Wasn't he a framer? (Please, no revisionist history. Thanks.)
Pretty simple, eh?
I did it! I murdered him! I dressed up as a tree and killed him!
even funnier that both are spelt the same in French :-)
Since when the truth of a story depends on who is singing it? The is one truth is only that your editors and your company want you to say.
As for the personality of Dan Rather, or the personality of S. Donaldson, that is irrelevent. Though sometime I think this is the most intresting part of the show.
Contributing to a legislator's re-election campain is by far most important, I would think.
$1,000 = 1,000 hand-written letters
10,000 emails = 1 hand-written letter
Sure. Cut us off from _the american internet feed_. Fine by me, also means the americans get cut off from the rest. I'd be mightily annoyed, of course. But it'd be just as harmful for the US net-users as for the rest of the world.
I seem to remember hearing the majority of handgun wounds in the US are caused by the accidental misuse of a firearm or by use on family members
The NRA claims that a) that's a damn lie, and b) okay, maybe it's true, but by definition those people are irresponsible so it's not fair to take them into account.
:)
One of Robert Heinlein's most often repeated quotes is that "an armed society is a polite society", however it depends on a rational citizenry.
I agree. The only problem with Heinlein's statement there is that while his logic looks good, his predictions don't match anything that ever happened in the past four thousand years of human history. Sure, if society is already a battlefield, you're better off being armed yourself, but that doesn't tell you much about a "polite society". However, what we have to face in the US is the fact that we are an armed society -- in fact, we're a mild counterexample (powerfully mild compared to, for example, Chechnaya) to Heinlein's politeness theory. So: Since we're already there, what are we going to do about it? Beats the hell outta me.
"Extremism in the defense of anything is a vice" is a self-contradicting statement. You've taken the extreme against extremism.
Hence the smiley.
Not all extremes are bad, just as not all absolutes are false. The trick is choosing the correct ones. If you think you don't have to choose, them read the previous paragraph again.
It was meant to be an Irishism, played for laughs, as well as a play on something Joe McCarthy (IIRC) said. Whatever serious intent I had (which probably wasn't all that apparent in what I wrote, for which I apologize) had to do with my personal conviction that extremism is mostly a matter of reducing morality to a simple algorithm, and then applying it robotically. Most extremism, in my humble opinion, is reductionism on crack. Of course, as the man said, "All those reductionists are the same".
If you think you can get by with self-contradictions, then you have some very deep philosophizing to do.
If you think you can get by without them, I think you may have spent too much time programming and not enough meeting girls and/or raising cats. This theory of mine is based on personal experience of both options, by the way
Basically, there are so many false premises in his argument that I wasn't too surprised that he might be the type of person who thinks getting paid to do a job is immoral, as opposed to doing it for altruistic purposes.
Huh? Talk about a false premise! Jeez. "There was this communist who disagreed with me, and now this guy disagrees with me too -- therefore he's a communist!"
He also said "Money requires government to be of any value at all." This is false as well.
I think he's got a very good point, actually. Find me a pure anarchy with a cash economy. The thing is, whenever you get more than two families in the same valley, they create a government of some kind. People seem to be like that. It may well be sheer idiocy (though I don't personally think so), but short of brain surgery, it looks to me like we're stuck with it.
He also implies that "working for the good of their fellow man" is a good thing. It's the communist ideal, and it didn't work.
It works fine in Lancaster Co., PA, just as it worked when we were settling the plains. In a cash-poor agrarian economy, people either help each other out they all starve. In those conditions it's just not possible to store enough surplus value to replace your barn by yourself when it burns down -- especially since a big chunk of your wealth just drifted away on the breeze. Hence barn-raisings. In small, economically strapped communities, "share and share alike" has been a necessity for survival throughout history. On that scale, it works.
Furthermore, the notion that "'working for the good of their fellow man' is a good thing" may or may not be the communist ideal (it certainly isn't the whole of the communist ideal), but it's the Christian ideal as well. It also turns up elsewhere. Just because Hitler liked dogs and children doesn't mean that everybody who likes dogs and children is a maniac. You can't judge ideas by the people who latch onto them. You can't judge them by pure theorizing, either; the fact is, I live in the US and pay taxes not only to the federal government, but also to the state of Massachussetts, where state taxes are pretty high. I am, in part, working for the good of my fellow man right now. And you know what? We're doing okay.
There are some politicians in this world who, politically, I think are trying to do the right thing, and I support them.
Just every politician these days is doing the trendy thing and setting up a "web site". Some even are setting up an "e-mail list". They do so with great fanfare and all sorts of wonderfully meaningless buzzwords attached, like "forward-thin king." Most of these are unbelievably amateurish jobs. The web sites are ugly and content-free, and the "e-mail lists" tend to be silly web based things. Both send a message, loud and clear, to the technically clever: this person's campaign has no clues at all when it comes to computers and the 'net. They're even so clueless, or so stubborn, that they can't figure out that they are lacking the clues and go hire somebody with clues to do it for them. This also says something about the politician by extension.
The obvious fix for a clueful computer/net person who would like to help the campaign would be to get in there and do it. However, this is not even remotely how political campaigns work these days. Most of the people running the show are people who are entrenched in the political power structure, and metrics like "clueful" vs. "clueless" don't amount to anything with these people. Their current web designer might be doing a horrid job that's all but discrediting the campaign, but that doesn't mean they'll listen to your saying so if you're a nobody, much less accept your volunteer assistance, because their current web designer is somebody who is "known" in political circles.
Part of me wonders whether someone -- even someone with the right political ideas -- who surrounds themselves with these sorts of people is doomed to be the kind of politician this country is plagued by. But part of me knows that this is a field where you have to know how to "play the game," and that's just the way it is sometimes.
So my rambing does actually lead to a question for Jonah and Shabbir. They, as technology people, were able to work with the system and establish themselves as credible. How would you recommend that others who would like to do the same go a bout doing it?
>We, more than anyone, know there's no such thing as a free lunch. Yes there is, I had one today with champagne. Anyway thats being pendantic. How about you "republicans" or "democrats" or "libertarians" acting like "human beings" and voting for someone with some integrity for a change rather than just cos they are one of the above and you have voted that way since day dot. Baaa Baaa Baaa Brad This message is dedicated to Lord Such (Deceased). Ex Leader of the British Monster Raving Loony Party. Cos at least they were honest.
Can yours or some other organisation make the internet more suited for furthering democracy? For example, I would like a web site to keep track of the past decisions of our representatives for elections. Is this legal? How can such a thing be protected from political interest? What can be used to stop our representatives from deleting or adding information about themselves or others from such a site?
Are online political debates feasable?
Is there any way of choosing political candidates for elections using the internet? How?
In a medium such as the internet, where there is two-way communication, politicians become more equal. I could imagine a great many politicains would be opposed to the internet becoming a forum for comercials, opinion, and debate. How can this be protected? How can this be tooken away?
Kevin Holmes
"extrasolar"
klh@sedona.net
1. How many gallons of cum do you ejaculate each year? 2. Is your jizz scalding hot, like my father's?
It's clear that the net provides a vast, new forum for the dissemination and debate of political ideas. It's also clear that netizens are aware and vocal regarding political issues.
However, it also seems that the net opinions are routinely ignored by politicians. There are some success stories, such as the defeat of CDA and the spy-on-your-customers proposals. But more typically, we hear that email to politicians is considered chaff and earns form replies. Or that netizens' demands are unheard as corporations dictate policy.
So for all we hear about net activism and democracy, what _is_ the connection between Internet politics and the political system? What are the mechanisms by which we make ourselves heard? Which ones work now, and what should we be doing to create effective channels in the future?
Strong crypto? Internet casinos? Child pornagraphy? Sale of perscription drugs over the net? Gun sales over the 'net? Piracy (software, movies, music, pictures, etc.)? All of these items are LEGAL somewhere on the planet. The 'net, though, brings totally counter and conflicting laws and idealogoes together in the same place in a way that's never been done before. And isolationism and treating the whole 'net as within your borders in making up laws to deal with these issues is not acceptable. Tolerance and a hands-off approach to the 'net in the EXTREME is called for and a realization that no-one has a monopoly of definitions for the terms "right" and "wrong" across the planet.
Right now Bill Bradley winning the Democratic nomination is the only hope I can see of getting an at least somewhat sane/competent candidate elected.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I'm not so sure about that. If I understand correctly, canada gets most of its internet connectivity through American backbone providers (mainly MCI and AT&T). Most (all?) of the North AmericaEurope backbones are also run by American companies. If these all died, the rest of the world would have some big problems. Europe could still communicate within itself, and possibly to Australia and Asia, but that's about it.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Sure, this isn't true now, but it could have worked out that way. The Internet was entirely 100% US-only at one point, so when the first Europeans hooked up (basically, getting their bandwidth from the Americans who ran the backbones), the US could have forced them to abide by the Terms of Service in order to get that feed. Fortunately, they agreed on a peer-to-peer network hierarchy instead.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I went to college with someone from New England (some town he never named) who explained who it works in their town which is a demoracy:
for the large majority of town meetings 10 old men (women are allowed, but appearently don't attend) show up and decide how to run the town. These people are responsiable to nobody, are not elected, but they have power to set taxes.
The some students decided they wanted a new track. They printed up flyers, raised interest about their parents and friends parents. On a set night most of the town decended on the meeting, with one issue: voting for a new track. They had no interest in any other issues up for vote. They had no interest in how to get the money to pay for this track. They simply went along with everyone else to vote for a new track, and went home.
The next meeting the 10-15 old men who ran the town sat alone in that room, went overthe budget and decided that since there wasn't money to pay for it (of course the most expensive track was approved) they would have to raise taxes.
Then all the towns folks started complaining about how taxes went up, not realising they were the problem. It only takes a few issues like this before the irresposibility of the people overwhelms the ability of a demoracy to work. Remember, not everyone cares as much as you or I might. MN had the highest voter turnout of any state in the US last year, and 40% of the voters didn't bother to vote! (probably more then 40%.) If I recall correctly, in one state 70% of the voters didn't vote.
Until a large majority of the population keeps themselves informed and bothers to vote on all issues there is not point. At least with representatives there is some control, more then there is over those self selected 10 old men.
I could swear it did.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Why should the rest of the world have to abide by the standards of our idiotic politicians? Especially when many of them are hypocrites anyway? Do you think we should just have one internet for America and not let anyone else in? You'd probably be in the minority... err.. well no.. you'd be with the majority of mindless tv drones that think the internet is just a cool way to find out what the weather will be like and download porn. The point is that you would be isolating the US and drastically limiting the usefulness of the net.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I might not like all of their ideas, but I like enough of them that I might vote for them if the other choice is Bush or Gore(I don't know much about Bradley).
The problem is how the hell this party will get on the ballot. I doubt they'll be able to. If not, I'll probably wind up voting for some other 3rd party, since I am sick to death almost everyone in the big two.
The problem is getting people to want to run for office who are't phsychopaths, sex maniacs or KKK members.
I think that muslim control of the USDA would suck.
I don't eat pork often, but I'm sure proud of my right to eat it occasionally.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
If we had a direct democracy, Ricky Martin would be elected president.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The education issue has been and always will be an issue of who controls the information.
Senators act and vote on information presented to them by the lobbyists. So of course their interests are conflicted, and the result of garbage in is garbage out.
Now, if everybody got to vote on laws, the mass media would control all the information. Sure, maybe the "real" stuff would be on PBS, or CSPAN. But most people are watching CNN and ABC. Now, how do you suppose we got involved in Kosovo over the deaths of a few hundred oppressed ethnic Albanians, when we completely ignored the situation in Rwanda, where over half a million people were murdered by machetes in the space of a few weeks? Could it have been due to CNN coverage?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Not if I have to download the latest version of MSIE to do it!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
IMHO, some very big questions are "how do we detect further abuses of this kind", and "what should be done, once they are detected."
We can't just leave it to the European Union's techs and politicians in Australia to blow the whistle. And once the whistle IS blown, it's criminal to simply allow the abuse to continue. However, with a program of this kind, how can anyone know if anything changes? We're not likely to be told, and I don't see public accounts being set up on their ultra-secret machines.
Whilst it remains possible for Governments to run programs such as Echelon, cryptography is useless. You can regard the message as being essentially open. Privacy is a joke, with anything you send being readable and loggable.
IMHO, if political activists cannot convince politicians to set up an effective watchdog, with teeth, to prevent intelligence services from indulging in industrial espionage and unlawfully spying on private citizens, nothing else you can ever hope to gain will have any value or meaning.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Why don't I see more about low-$$ candidates on the internet? All we get are the high budget media favorites. Do their campaign people not know of the voting and fundraising potential online?
--
(sourceCode == freeSpeech)
How can I make this page more effective in reaching out to the voters of my district?
It's a tall order, I know, but I really think it's a worthwhile project. If there isn't such a resource out there already, I'd be very much willing to build one. (Hello, mod_perl!)
Beer recipe: free! #SourceCold pints: $2 #Product
What is security, but freedom from fear?
-Chris
The problem with this is that even if the US took such a policy, and cut off the connections to states who didn't implement US policies, there's nothing preventing them from networking without the US. The US could threaten to cut off anyone who gave them service, but that would lead to trade wars and such. Also, do we really want the US government imposing its standards (puritanical sexual morality, bans on drug-related content, and various FBI/NSA surveillance proposals, to name a few) on the whole wired world? Especially since there's enough of a consensus on things such as child pornography. Besides, how do you think Cuba, Iran, &c., are connected to the Net?
Fortunately, back then the Net was run by hackers, not politicians; in fact, most politicians were unaware of its existence. And the hackers who ran it didn't see any reason to bring it under the heel of politics.
With the proliferation of the Internet, and the increasing powers of corporate interests to sway the opinions of those elected, haven't electoral politics become obsolete?
What would possibly keep us involved in a failed, antiquated system? What caveats do you see that would keep us from moving towards a
completely direct democracy?
--
Michael Chisari
dominion@beyondtheweb.com
As much as I hate being a US-centric troll, we did invent the Internet itself here (though plenty of Europeans, working here, contributed - and the Web was invented overseas). It was originally built under a US government contract, by our rules and standards. Fortunately, we were smart enough to open up connectivity, but still we control the DNS standard, we control address assignments, and most of the major backbones and access points are on our soil.
Leading me to my point here: this AC has a valid point, though not terribly practical. If the US government decided to take their ball and go home, that would be stupid, but we built it - we make the rules. I have no problem at all with us running the show. That said, the nature of the Internet is to open up information and culture. Politicians need to know that, while we may run the Internet here in the US, it represents something bigger than all of us. We may run it, but we can't control it.
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
martian
"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
Question: How does one organize a group of people entirely online? I have seen several attempts at getting a movement off the ground - setting up a listserv, website, discussing the issues.. but that's usually all the farther it goes, and then the whole thing sinks.
What's the best way to get in touch with people and get something off the ground?
--
The problems with being politically active in an internetworked culture today are twofold: the economics of attention, and accelerated fragmentation.
Some wag said that the most important commodity is people's attention - getting them to consider your product or service, getting them to be aware of what you're offering. Strategies for colonizing attention have become *very* sophisticated and *very* effective - to the point that we don't have a lot of attention left for things that don't immediately deal with entertainment or work.
Civic and public issues can't compete with that *unless they also take the form of entertainment.* Monica Lewinsky, bombing faraway countries, and psychotic gun-sprees are good entertainment. The constant, grinding, slow erosion of our civil liberties (or, more pointedly, the civil liberties of that unfortunate minority that disagrees with the norm) is not good theatre, and the technologies and strategies of attention-getting won't work for them. In fact, it's good theater that's responsible for their erosion: "save our children from drugs!" plays a lot better than "we may not like what people say, but they have a right to say it."
The other problem is fragmentation accelerated by the technologies of anonymous/faceless communication. I'm not an economic libertarian - I *am* a civil libertarian. I could work with a libertarian on civil issues, but the fact is that the animosity pumped up between liberals and libertarians over issues such as environmental and business regulation, public assistance, and labor law is such that we are each unlikely to want to work with each other - and we're essentially drunk on the differences of opinion when our fora for discussion is online groups like this one.
On his page he claims that his page is Open Source. If that's true, then I should be able to take his entire page, modify it slightly so that it says "Al Gore Sucks" and put it on my own web site.
l says "In the spirit of the Open Source movement, we have established the Gore 2000 Volunteer Source Code Project. www.algore2000.com is an "open site". "
e .html that "Only individuals acting as volunteers may participate in source code volunteer efforts. No individual may be paid for their efforts. When submitting your source code, please provide your name, address (mailing address and e-mail address), occupation and the name of your employer.
http://www.algore2000.com/getinvolved/index.htm
Then he goes on to say on http://www.algore2000.com/getinvolved/legal_notic
By submitting this source code you warrant that the code is your original product and you have not reproduced, counterfeited, copied or colorably imitated any, copyright trademark, or service mark or violated any federal or state law.
Further, this source code is not being submitted by a company, business, labor union or other organization, or any federal, state or municipal agency and has not been produced using the facilities of any such groups."
Al Gore is mocking the Open Source concept by calling his page Open Source. It clearly is not.
He should fear the power of the Penguin!
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Al Gore offends Open Source fans by mocking the concept on his campaign web page. He offends internet users by claiming that he invented the internet.
On the other hand, G.W. Bush offends free thinkers by announcing that he wants religous organizations to take a larger part in government programs, and might directly tax dollars to those programs.
What is the best way to let these candidates know that their current positions are counter-productive? I want someone to say clearly that they will increase NASA's budget over the next 4 years.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
What do they say? "He who gives up a little freedom to gain a little security deserves and gets neither" -- indeed. Oh, yes indeed. See above. On the other hand, all of life is a matter of trading freedom for security. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch": It's just a question of what kind of a bargain you drive. I'm not free to sleep in until noon on weekdays and then drink my breakfast; in return for giving up that freedom, I get a regular paycheck. It's called adulthood. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
You don't understand the quote. When you voluntarily give up your ability to sleep in until noon, you haven't lost any freedom because you can voluntarily quit your job. It's a tradeoff, and as you said, we make tradeoffs every day.
Giving up your freemdom, on the other hand, means you don't have any choice in the matter any more. You've truly given up the right to decide for yourself.
Libertarians understand the value of choice. That's why we don't want the bureaucrats making personal decisions for us, no matter how benevolent and well-intentioned they claim to be. We understand that even if they were each a hundred times smarter than the rest of us, they couldn't solve our problems for us. We, more than anyone, know there's no such thing as a free lunch.
There is ONE group in the population who consistantly turn out in large numbers. The Senior Citizens are ALWAYS the group with the highest turn out.
It's because of their vote that the President and the Congressional Republicans are posturing over Social Security and Medicare. It's because of apathetic baby boomers and "Gen-X"ers that the old people get anything that they want from politicians.
The internet is not going to have any significant influence over these people because they get all of their information at night from Dan Rather. The up-to-the-second nature of the internet is not interesting to the most powerful voters that we have. In 30 years when those people are no longer around and the Internet is a part of the daily lives of more voters, it may be too late. By then they can demonize and regulate the hell out of the internet so that it'll be a toothless tiger. We have a "supposedly" free press in the US, but whenever someone prints something that is unpopular, or politically incorrect there is such a cry to shut them down that nobody with two brain cells to rub together would even think of it.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
And if so, why would we want it?
If someone's too friggin' lazy to get their butt to a polling place, do we want them to vote? (Not counting those folks for whom getting to a polling place is very difficult or impossible due to physical impairment, of course.)
If someone's too friggin' lazy to get their
butt to a polling place, do we want them to vote?
I think the high percentage of people who don't
vote has more to do with apathy and a sense of
helplessness than laziness.
I've skipped a couple of municipal elections
because I simply did not like or trust any of the
candidates. In regional elections when there is
nobody worth voting for, I spoil the ballot.
But what is a spoiled ballot really worth? It only
ommunicates dissatisfaction . It doesn't give
those in power any idea what you do want them
to do. (subtext= so why bother?)
-matt
That sounds a little Microsoftish. Not the ignore you part, the we control everything and well kill you if you don't like it part.
--Hunter Pankey
Where does your organization stand on the usage of technologies to block websites in schools and libraries? What opposition have you run into (and from whom) trying to advocate your solution?
Second time: she now HAD a web page (and a very bad one at that), but no email address. The response? "Rep. Fowler feels she doesn't needs an email address: she has no way to know if mail is really from her constituants or not, and doesn't want to offend one by not replying."
So I guess my overall question is what use is it to organize online when many politicians either don't notice or don't take the net seriously?
Things I'm interested in seeing come to pass:
* Fair-minded Intellectual Property Laws and fair minded administration of those laws.
* Freer Radio and communications -- citizen access to a broader spectrum of media (though the net already has improved the situation...)
* Microcredit -- no, not Micropayment, though that'd be nice. But Microcredit loans, like the Grameen Bank does. I'd like to see that idea wider spread; I guess it already exists.
* Better traffic flow!
Weston
Tweet, tweet.
The average voter is older than the average geek. Are there any statistics on geek voter turnout? What about turnout for people who use the Internet?
I was told by a Pol Sci professor that the highest turnout group are all eligible for the AARP (Am. Assoc. of Retired Persons) and the lowest turnout is 18-25 year olds.
So, how much do politicians really care about the Internet?
During TBWP hype, there was some fall out regarding fan sites which turned out to really be run by the studio.
Will mindshare agree to never use this type of trick in its campaigns ? Will mindshare agree to always tell the readers of it's sites that 1) what they are reading is paid advertising, and 2) who is paying for the advertising ?
Personally, I like to know when people are doing something because they are getting paid for, and when they are really doing something because they believe in what they're saying.
Well, to start with I'd expect slashes... :-)
My Question: Can we use the internet to build a Free Global Nation of People (F-GNP) interested in the advancement (Education, Health, Quality of life, ...) of all humanity?
=
... Global). Any individual is doomed to fail and/or harm others when as an individual they attempt to determine the mental and emotional development of others.
I pledged (about 30 years ago) to protect and defend the US Constitution, I will until the day I die. I could also pledge to defend and protect such a Global Nation with the primary interest of promoting and building institutions dedicated to human advancement and community.
My Life, the US Constitution and a Global Nation providing Freedom for all humanity are of equal value to me. Somethings that are concepts are as real as me.
===============================================
To some of the comments already made.
Reality is a self-induced hallucination!
For me liberty is a concept that has varying value for US all. Security can only be secured by the efforts of the community (US, Canada, Australia, Japan, Sudan, Burma,
Only the living individual can defend freedom until death, only the union of all communities can provide security with freedom.
In the end, may God bless the Peace-Maker, and forgive my soul for decisions I made long ago.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
kmj
The only reason I keep my ms-dos partition is so I can mount it like the b*tch it is.
kmj
The only reason I keep my ms-dos partition is so I can mount it like the b*tch it is.
kmj
The only reason I keep my ms-dos partition is so I can mount it like the b*tch it is.
kmj
The only reason I keep my ms-dos partition is so I can mount it like the b*tch it is.
How much of a role do you think the net will have on an election?
Considering the last stat's I saw most people were not on the net it might not be much. But how many of those vote? Most net users tend to over state its importance. Most non-net users tend to understate it importance.
Can a candidate win today without a net presence of some sort?
Can a condidate win today based mainly on a net presence?
-cpd
How effective are online campaign contribution appeals? Are they worth the effort?
What are the best methods for organizing outreach online? If it's through e-mail, how do you avoid the SPAM label?
I'm guessing you were once out-argued by a Libertarian, and now you hold a grudge against all of them. To suggest they are all gun-nuts is just plain ignorant. I am sure the vast majority of them hold their entire ideal to be true.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Bill Moyers recently did a PBS documentary on "The Media". Take a serious look at who owns TV, radio, and newspapers in this country, and you will no longer wonder why truth in reporting doesn't matter. Ratings matter. The American citizen does not have a chance of getting the truth on any issue.
Simple example....What should we do with the "budget surplus"? How many trillions of dollars of dollars in debt are we? If I owe Visa more than my weekly paycheck, I do NOT call that a surplus! I recently heard some statistics on a radio talk show (grab your grain of salt). Approximately 50% of the American citizenry believe the U.S Government has it's own money, and that's what it is spending for all these programs. Also, there are currently more people receiving federal funds, than are currently paying taxes. Sorry folks, it's MY money and I'm tired of giving it away.
While I'm on wasting my money, why does congress keep wasting time and resources on bills and laws that are clearly in violation of the constitution? The CDA, CDAII, Crypto controls...? If cryptography is a munition, don't citizens have a right to bear arms?
So, what can we do? Keep links to real information available. Keep links to email Representatives and Senators prominently available. Use those links often.
If Mindshare can simply get the politicians to recognize email as a legitimate and sincere form of voter communication, I'm sure that the /. effect will pale in comparison to the /tax, /bull, /waste effect.
I ask because I find that the idea of any sort of "political action" is offensive to many in this community.
Regards,
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
There was a flap some time ago when it was learned that most of our elected officials admitted that they wouldn't vote in favor of the first 10 amendments (the Bill of Rights) if it were placed in front of them as new legislation.
How would you vote in that situation? Are there any you would NOT vote for? If so, which ones -or what specific provisions would you strike (if given the chance)?
I personally think every candidate for office should be handed this question - the answers are usually most enlightening.
If the US government decided to take their ball and go home, that would be stupid, but we built it - we make the rules.
Umm, and what would that prove, exactly?
There would be a big, gaping, hole in the internet that the other backbone providers would simply route around (it might create some chaos for a few weeks, until everything settled.)
Likewise, DNS is not a (persistant) issue, my TLD is ca. It's pretty simple to point to different root servers.
"address assignment" is a joke - sounds like you're implying that my IP address would become invalid.
The genie is out of the bottle; there's nothing now that can be done about it. "Taking your ball and going home" would do nothing except piss off the few americans who actually have a brain.
Just as the Internet allows for a new level of free communication, it also allows a new level of disinformation to be spread. Can you remark on what safeguards we might have or expect to have to filter the purposefully misleading information out of Internet campaigns?
---- "When I grow up, I'll know far less"
..it will happen as soon as you're ready to pay for "free" Internet access for every loser who's too lazy to earn the money to buy it on his own. ... Are you going to ask the government to steal even more money... [to "pay" for net access]
... Are you going to ask the government to steal even more money... [to "pay" for net access]
lets brack this up into two points.
one.
would i be ready to pay for "free" Internet.
i think you mean, pay for those people that can't adford internet. well, IMHO "paymant" of "money" for something not produced, seems werd. that is i would like to see that if the net becomes more inportent in everyday life that it becomes a public sysvice that tax dollares "pay" for. ie everyone gets a cable in the house that the tv / computer / phone connects to. now you could pay for better / faster connection.
two
well, the government already steal's (takes money from me by force) from me to "pay" for all kinds of things i dont like. ie war's, anti-drug ad's, bio-weapons. so i dont see the diff.
if only we the people had more say there would be less horseshit in the world.... and no voting for the ether / or parties seems not to help change things.
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
Are the free Web hosting and the relative anonymity really that important for propaganda?
n t2000 ?
I'd believe that anyone wanting to spread propaganda on a national scale will invest at least in a good webdesign and a domain-name. Or can you imagine a candidate running for presidency with a website at
http:\\homebase.freespam.net\DonaldDuck4Preside
Do you, yourselves, see your organization on the grass root's level, where some believe the heart of political change must reside?
*Carlos: Exit Stage Right*
"Geeks, Where would you be without them?"
*Carlos: Exit Stage Right*
"Geeks, Where would you be without them?"
"Got Linux?"
no, i'm a baptist, but even handing over control to muslim organizations wouldn't bother me.
it's silly to assume that religious organizations automatically won't be even-handed in how they hand out assistance, and more than it's silly to assume that non-religious organizations will do the same thing.
there is much more room for people of faith (and the organizations they run) in government. "secular" organizations need all the help they can get, and true christians don't want to convert the world forcefully, as you seem to assume they will.
Mindy: "Well...desserts aren't always right." Homer: "But they're so sweet!"
Many companies have found that one of the Net's biggest benefits is its ability to give them high bendwidth customer feedback (eg auto makers with model selector pages, which tell them what features people want far better than post-hoc sales analyses.) As usual, the political sector is lagging by a good bit, with most pols acting like the Net is another one-way pipe like television.
/dev/null it; wide experience tells us that your chance of having your mail read by a human is zero. Perhaps more frightening are the suggestions that the Y2K elections will be massively spamvertised.
Examples: most Congressional offices either have no e-mail address at all or
After a trial spam or two from the RNC in 1996, several pols tried spamming in 1998 and ran into the (predictable) consequence: spam alienates several nines of the people it reaches. Which might be an acceptable consequence to the spammer if the worst that happens is that they don't send ten dollars to the top five names on the list, but doesn't look so good if the recipients vote.
So, with Bush and Gore setting up massmail pyramids, the RNC hiring spammers, McCain sneaking prospam legislation through at midnight before floor votes, and Congress extending the franking priveledge to spam accounts, the question is:
How do we get a clue-by-four to our Lords and Masters that the Net is much better for information gathering than propaganda pushing?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Perhaps the biggest political change in recent years has nothing to do with the internet. The fact is, third party candidates are starting to get elected in local elections in record numbers. Recently Arcata, CA elected a Green Party majority to their city council. Needless to say, all kinds of interesting progressive legislation got passed!
/really/ empowers voters is ultimately very simple: the voting booth. The voting booth is the only true form of power we have as citizens, because there is no other institution in this country in which we have a direct say. But if we use government effectively, we don't need anything more.
I think it's important not to get side-tracked by thinking the Internet is a political tool that will somehow empower voters. Mostly it empowers politicians by facilitating the kinds of manipulation and distortion that go on in the other mass mediums. Does TV empower voters?
What
I would like to know if they, while up there rubbing elbows with the powerful and incompetent, have gotten some sort of feeling for where the rabid Crypto-phobia of Washington is stemming from?
Certainly, most free thinkers of the world recognize the importance of free and strong crypto in the information society, yet in Washington, which as I understand and hope is still a collection of moderately intelligent and educated people, it seems no one supports the issue. Even our friends (SAFE etc) are just less destructive enemies.
Is it, as many like to believe, the NSA and the rest of the Intelligence community still running the show like puppet masters with absolutely no resistance, or is there in Washington a deep, pessimistic belief that freedom must truly be fought with all means possible because we the lesser people of the earth cannot handle it?
I wonder if anyone else understood The Onion refernece? I showed that one to a friend once and he almost pissed himself laughing. Too bad they don't archive those...
-ElJefe
I emailed my legislators (and some from other districts that I know personally) about this. Two had not heard word one about it (I sent the full articles and URLs).
Next I'm siccing the Statewide offices - Insurance Commissioner, Atty General, Governor - on them.
But, I have an unusual name and they know me, so this is not as easy for others.
Will in Seattle
OK, from my perspective the usefulness of communicating TO legislators is, in order:
1. If you personally know them and they know you - signed email (with full name and address and phone) is most effective.
2. Hand-written letter.
3. Hand-written postcard.
4. Typed letter.
5. Typed postcard.
6. Fax (unless like 1)
7. Email with full name, address, and phone
8. Any other email (since they don't know you're in their district)
Is this true?
Also, for election strategy purposes, I presume web sites and ftp sites are most useful for campaign lit and talking points. Are email lists (Bcc: or full blown lists) useful? For what? By state, for press releases, for coordination, for keeping volunteers involved, for responding to dirty tricks, what?
Will in Seattle
Why not disorganized?
It's more fun - just ask Bob Dole.
Will in Seattle
unlike shrub, who thinks it's a secret handshake used in The Ruins of Seattle.
Will in Seattle
You want your own Net, you pay for it.
Oh, wait, you can't.
Tough.
Will in Seattle
Well, ask the people of the Canal, or any of the many countries where we decide to declare a "peace action" if US laws don't apply to them.
Oh.
It was a joke, but it isn't really. We're more than half of the Net, and what we say goes. Whether that is good (it usually isn't) or not, that's the real world.
Will in Seattle
What really gets me about this is: it's true.
We are arrogant, we do control the "Free World", and if you don't agree with us, we either ignore you or we take it over.
And, sadly, we're not as funny as the French.
Will in Seattle
When do the treason trials begin?
I'm not joking. This is an attack on the foundations of the Republic.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
In the not-too-distant future, I see a time when I can log onto my computer on election day, type in my social security number and password, and vote for the candidate of my choice. Such a system would massively increase voter participation and would result in a government truly elected by the people. Do you think that such a system will truly come to pass, and if so, when?
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
the questions they want to answer aren't the interesting questions. Getting someone to answer a question that they don't want to can actually give you insight.
(Although, when they lie about the answer, or completely try to dodge it, that's another story)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
While not everyone on the net shares a common political philosophy, there are some very common tendencies, such a strong libertarian undercurrent. Do you guys think the net could be used as an important tool in bringing together freedom-loving people to form a third party to represent the interests of liberty that so often get stepped on by the two major political parties in the USA? And could such a party have a chance of winning a significant number of elections, unlike (apparently) other third parties such as the lamented Libertarian Party?
-- $SIGNATURE
Now it seems that the federal government is trying to censor such discussion. For example, we have the "Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act of 1999", which would criminalize many discussions of drug policy.
I believe that you can't have a meaningful discussion on, for instance, the sentancing guidelines for possession of crack vs. powder cocaine without an understanding of how crack is made. Thus, my drug policy site has such information.
Trying to censor "dirty" bits is bad enough, but to censor political discussion is utterly abhorant. Political censorship is a life-and-death issue - people will fight, kill, and die for free speech. What, short of bullets, is it going to take to stop the cybercensors? (Or should I just go buy more bullets while I still can?)
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
There has been a lot of talk about Gore and Bush, but I have read that some very big Silicon Valley CEO's and others have donated a good chunk of money to Bill Bradley. Do you think he would try to make good policies toward the internet and technology in general?
Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only old dog on this new age Internet. I have heard a lot of talk of Libertarian rights but your average web surfing voter has no idea that they are standing in anarchial territory. The Internet is the world's largest free standing anarchy with no centralised control. The inhabitants declared themselves independant of all external governments but our citizens are becoming more and more concerned with external interference. Do you consider it feasible to run a political compain promoting the benifits of a free anarchic society that can appeal to those netizens who have little idea what they got themselves into when they hooked up their modem? The majority of laws suggested to be imposed by various governments around the world relate to outmoded concepts of morality that have no place in an anarchial society. Many governments wish to force their democratic (in in the case of Australia: paternal) additudes onto an unwilling populous. Anarchies may have many inherit flaws (that are to be ironed out by co-operative human will) but they ensure the exchange of ideas free of authoritarian enforced values.
How we know is more important than what we know.
The biggest problem that I ever see is people who's attitude is, "I don't care I've already got mine, and besides, my vote/protest isn't going to change anything." I think, therefore that the most effective way to use the Internet is to convince people that they can change things, and that apathy is not the way to go. Therefore I think tech related "Political Success Stories" would be a handy thing to have. It wouldn't hurt, also, to keep a voter guide of pro-liberty and anti-liberty politicians.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Take a look at The Revolution web site, someone is trying to do something other than the normal two parties demonising each other.
http://www.the-revolution.org/
I have a frew ideas of my own that I put down in an email to R U Sirius who started it all. I've copied it here I hope its helpful
----------------------------------------------
Okay I just read your site and it reminds me of Richard Pryors' "None of the above" in Brewsters Millions, that said you are obviously very intune with people like the EFF. So you have a Web site, what now? Well here are some suggestions for you:-
1. The Revolution as fashion
a) Run competitions to design cool T-shirts for the party different age groups and fashion students.
b) Sell cool designer T-shirts for fundraising
c) Cool T-shirt = cool front logo and reverse with one of your 15 points on it, make it like collecting beanie babies. Include URL on
collar/cuffs/bottom edge
d) Substitute jeans/ jackets/ underwear/ sneakers/ lunch box/ baseball hat/keychain etc. for t-shirt.
2. The-Revolution Cartoon on the Net
a) Comic strip - Dilbert subversive style
b) Macromedia animation see http://www.kimble.org for a good example, see 1st movie
c) Mechandise (see point 1)
3. Never appear in person
a) Always over the Net, have rallies via videoconferencing and simultaniously over the Net
b) Use a computer animated character to speak your words like on TV when the computer head lip-syncs with someone saying the words
c) Have video wall trucks that go from town to town stop and play videos about the Revolution inc. cartoons etc.
d) Guest spot on The Simpsons
4. Revolution dolls that say "vote Revolution".
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
1. New models of politics
What do they think about using the Net to spawn new types of democratic politics, e.g. the ability to vote on individual issues bypassing traditional representatives. Maybe only allowing people to vote if they have already contributed something to the debate on the topic?
2. Advocacy
There is strong advocacy within the geek population as epitomised by the Linux Advocacy
How To, ways of increasing debate, and providing good quality information rather than FUD, therefore increasing everyones understanding of the situation rather than polarising arguements and ending up in irrational finger pointing. Do you think this ethos can be translated to the world of politics, and what effect do you think it might have?
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
i think the problem with political promotion on the internet is that the internet lacks serious context. television and radio are, for most people, mythic industries where only Important People can be heard. the internet, on the other hand, is a forum for everyone, from twelve year old's pokemon fan sites to the KKK to pornography to your particular political candidate. i feel that the image of the internet as a people's media greatly harms it's ability to promote a single individual. it would be much like running ads on CB radio.
an internet site or ad just doesn't seem as IMPORTANT as messages in other media. I was wondering if you agree with my above statements and how you fight the inherent difficulties in giving any web campaign the seriousness you surely want.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
There is a slight difference. You sign up with a US backbone provider. so you abide by their terms of service.
Europeans (for example) sign up with a european backbone provider. So abide by their terms of service.
US and european backbone providers exchange data on a peer-to-peer basis. We handle their traffic, they handle ours. Not at all the same as you and your higher-level provider. The fact that you fall into this thinking-trap seems to be the very essence of the problem. The US is _NOT_ the _core_ of the internet. In fact, from the very design of the net, the net _has_ no core, no single 'highest-level-point'.
Just my $0.02
If these guys are "avid slashdot readers" would it not be easier to have them pick the questions for here themselves?
newton62 (56617) Karma: Bad
Are many campaigns running their own servers? It is my impression that that is currently an outsourced function, and basically just web content. I feel that very soon (if not now), it would be a "good thing" for campaigns to be using SSL secured web based email accounts. Has email made any inroads as a form of intra campaign communication? Given the possibilities (and the enormous motivations, read FDR and Nixon) for intercepting political communications, secure email should be a more favorable form of communication than phones or faxes. Is anyone taking these fears into account?
and finally:
any internship opportunities? heh.
matt, mcse 1999, ba poli sci 2000
What is your organization doing about various congressional legislation that is attempting to legislate away our pricacy. Specifically regarding the plan to make all encryption software makers include a backdoor key that the FBI would hold in escrow to monitor criminals and the plan to "standardize" network communications so that the FBI/CIA/NSA can monitor "traffic patterns" that could suggest a "cyber-attack"? These are, in my opinion, the biggest threat to personal privacy ever.
Some people take their .sig way too seriously
Now this is good. I've been a leading the charge on behalf of PASH (People Against Smart Hamsters) for a few years now, and I need to take my campaign online. How can I get my message heard? I couldn't help but notice hamsters would be moderating our questions, so maybe this is the true test of internet advocacy and political campaign.
SirSlud
"Old man yells at systemd"
Or, at a congressional aide...
"Message for you, sir!"
{keels over}
:)
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Arguably, the Internet can be used as a tool for the dissemination of propaganda -- including outright lies. This is at least partly due to
* The availability of free Web hosting.
* The difficulty of confirming the identity and credentials of 'net publishers/speakers.
* The occasional strange credulity of people...
An organized effort by any reasonably large group, be it a fringe, partisan group of people out to "get" somebody; or an activist group that does not bother with checking its "facts" can rapidly evangelize a cause with nonsense -- such as blatantly questionable statistics, out-of-context quotes, and so forth.
Is there any reason that the people *should* view the 'Net as a medium for information and activism, given all this? That is, why -- and how -- should people write or listen?
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
For over a year, we have been told to either vote for Bush or Gore in 2000. The mainstream media does not let anyone else get air time.
How can you bypass the networks and use the internet to publicize a candidate that actually has a brain and a flying chance in hell of getting elected?
Hey, leave comments about my mother out of this!