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Enlightenment now KDE compliant
teraflop user writes "The Enlightenment window manager now works with KDE, along with a load of other window managers. If you want to run the same window manager under Gnome and KDE, you now have several choices, including E, Blackbox and WindowMaker.
"
I remember reading some time ago, when the KDE and GNOME flame wars were at their height, the sane and sensible voices were calling for the arguments to stop, and instead to let KDE and GNOME slug it out in the only arena that matters -- `code'.
;-)
Which ever product has the best code -- the most functionality -- the most stability, is the one that will dominate the Linux desktop.
I know which one I think is best
Macka
Thats all fine and dandy, most of those are out yet. KFM is not good enough, for I bet most of you (and no, 2, 5, 10, 20 people replying they use it is not most of you) for the job of web-browsing. Same thing with the mail client. The rest is not released, and until they are, they are the same level as bonobo, G Workshop, and the new Gnome-File managers, as most users are concerned (kde developers are not most users). Just wait. If KOffice is as good as it looks, and all gnome has is some loosly related software that is not even GNOME compliant (Abiword, GIMP) by the time it is released, KDE will actually years ahead. It will even have better wiz-bang (relating this to the topic of KDE E support).
This is kinda bull. I don't know why GNOME gets this rep for being a wiz-bang desktop. You can say gnomes shitty, but KDE developers themselves have done more for wiz-bang. KWM for example has pixmap themes, things that made me think I was looking at E. KDE 2.0 has a real theme editor, made by KDE developers. All gnome has is a control-center themes chooser. Its not even there damn themes. GTK+ is stable, yet does provide some nice themeing. E (for version 0.15) is stable, and provides the other half of the desktop theme. Also, I bet most GNOME users use RedHat, or just like how GNOME is more free (no use arguing QPL is more free than LGPL, and saying you don't care doesn't matter to gnome users).
Where is the full web browser (Moz is not Gnome), where is a decent mail client (balsa?), Gnome workshop is far behind KOffice. Meanwhile KDE2 CVS has a fully functional office suite, people are working on Java support, it's file manager can read tons of internet protocol and embed all sorts of stuff like image viewers...
"...adding esoteric stuff or eye-candy that a power user would find useful."
This is not the definition of a power user. Instead, they are interested in tools, lots of tools, at both low and medium levels. They are also interested in fiddling with settings.
"Ask a gnome fan why he prefers gnome to kde and you would hear stuff about enlightenment themes."
Enlightenment is not a part of Gnome. This is like saying you prefer the L.A. freeways over the Bay Area freeways because you drive a Ferrari. A non sequitur.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Transform yourself into an energetic being and influence the electrons in your computer directly.
It needs a lot more practice than lerning to move a pointer and click buttons or typing commandos, but once you've masterd the transformation, you will never touch a keyboard ore mouse again.
Believe me!
And DAMN are they unpleasant to use. Wonder why there are NO C KDE apps? GTK+ is pure bliss to program in C. Go figure.
good thing I am an AC, or that woulda been embarising(sp). Also the fact that i didn't divide it into paragraphs.
If you read the license, once a product is released under GPL, any derived products from that work are also under the same conditions of the GPL.
This applies even to the author! If I write a program and version 1 is GPL, version 2 if it is based on version 1 must also be GPL. You own the copyright, yes. But your "ownership" is under the same contions as the GPL.
Linus can't tomorrow say "This open source software movement was neat, but now that I've got them hooked.." Nope. Of course this is a simplistic example because much of the Linux code is owned by other people, but you get my meaning.
You can probably get more info from http://www.fsf.org. From "What is the Copyleft?",
"To copyleft a program, first we copyright it; then we add distribution terms, which are a legal instrument that gives everyone the rights to use, modify, and redistribute the program's code or any program derived from it but only if the distribution terms are unchanged. Thus, the code and the freedoms become legally inseparable. "
Hahhh.. Using both desktops its easy so see who's going to survive... and its not going to be Gnome... The quality and stability of KDE applications is astonishing... The present version of gnome does not even compare with KDEBeta4 in terms of stability! My first installation of Gnome resulted in a disappointment. What i saw was a lousy and crashy KDE-clone with a panel on steroids. Thats it - just the panel is worth something (if it doesnt crash).
ugh, use one.
as I understand it, the main reason why GNOME exists, is because RMS has declared KDE evil, for using Qt, which isn't GPL-ed.
This is very true. And the reason HURD exists, is because Linux isn't a GNU project.
"Bernoulli was wrong. X proves that you can fill a vacuum, yet still it sucks." - Dennis Ritchie
as I understand it, the main reason why GNOME exists, is because RMS has declared KDE evil, for using Qt, which isn't GPL-ed.
That's pretty messed up.
So "Power Users" don't mind things crashing and are primarily concerned with eye candy while new users just want things to work???
I think you've got the groups backwards. New users (especially those migrating from doze) are used to things crashing as well as the form over substance of eye candy. Power users, on the other hand, are actually DOING stuff with their computer already and don't need distractions.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Ohh yea. I think I remember something like that. Bear with me, nope, can't find it on the KDE application web pages site. Lemme go seacrh for it on freshmeat . . . ok, not their either, not to worry cuase altavista search on the way, and what are they chances anyone else made a 'k' instead of 'c' typo. Ok, is this a bike or something, and what the hell is a kruiser club. Ok, making it KDE keyword manditory, and I got it.
HERE IT IS, IF YOU ARE INTRESTED LIKE ME http://devel-home.kde.org/~kruiser/in dex.html
You must be retarded. That post is from August, 1998. About a year after GNOME was started.
Nope, You *cam* relicense you (own) code, but all previous versions up to that point remain GPL'd.
And at least in Bazaar projects it's very difficult to sort out all the code contributed by others...
The license is an agreement between the owner of the software (in this case the author) and the person who wants to use/distribute/modify the software (in this case you).
;-)
The owner doesn't have to follow the terms of the license because he is not a licensee, he is the licensor.
Look at it like this: remember when your dad told you "in my house you follow my rules"?
Now, do you think he also told that to himself?
/pub/kde/unstable/apps/Utilities
That is also when the very first implementation of the Corba was done in Gnome. Before that it had nothing. And look at the KDE mailing lists. KOffice and KOM existed before Gnome. Please get a clue.
I'm at work on an NT machine, and can't access CVS, does anyone have recent sources that they could post somewhere? I've got 0.16dev4, but want to give the new version a spin...
Well, others will disagree with some things I'll say, but here's the lowdown..
A Window manager is what takes care of placing and decerating the windows temselves.. KDE DOES use a seperate window manager called kwm. The window manager itself is something simular as if you didn't have a taskbar in Windows. The provide other ways to launch programs beside's that little start button. There's ALOT more to it here, but I'm trying to generalize.
I've heard of many good things about E on lower end machines, but be warned. The flashy themes you see on e.themes.org DO take gobs of memory.. E can be configured to use less memory, but you lose alot of flashyness. I use it on a 16 Meg machine with the 'Clean' theme, with little problems.. I've tried to add gnome to it, but the memory requirments of Gnome simply kill my little laptop..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
GNOME/KDE and the like perform best with 32+ MB. I'm sure you *can* run a minimal X configuration in 12 MB, I'm just not sure it'll be very impressive.
MySQL didn't go GPL.. Take another look, Anonymous Coward..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
He's talking about Windowmaker, not E. The article only mentioned WM in passing.
You've obviously not used KDE applications. In terms of quantity and quality there's nothing comparable. Having said that, I hope that people won't loose interest in one project or another since this will promote monopolies and retard innovation.
I've read somewhere that in the future KDE will be providing GTK+ drop-in compatible libraries which will be KDE aware so that you can run GNOME apps seamlessly under KDE.
I find it strange seeing many very computer literate people duking it out over desktop environments. I personally tried both, figured out that both put too much overhead on my system, offered nothing of REAL use to me, and dropped em :) embedding stuff, a pretty graphical file browser that drags and drops files onto applications and so forth... bah to it all, gimme a good ol xterm/rxvt/Eterm. :)But it is nice to see this around though for those NOT competent enough to use a command line, and support it, but you just won't see me using it any time soon.. and my other gripe, the applications that don't NEED gnome that REQUIRE it to compile, can't people remember using #ifdef statements to only use gnome/kde features if present? *sigh*
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Wrappers are just plain bad no matter what the language.
KMail is much better than Gnome, and Gnome doesn't even have anything equivalent to KFM past alpha.
>I've read somewhere that in the future KDE will >be providing GTK+ drop-in compatible libraries >which will be KDE aware so
.. but .. I don't know why .. I don't think it's posible ... Kde is c++ ... gtk is c ... c++ wrapper for c libraries .. ok .. I've heard about it .. but ... c wrapper for c++ libraries ... hmmm ... anyboy know if smth like this is posible ??
> that you can run GNOME apps seamlessly >under KDE.
Woow ! that would really be something worth to see
KDE had it's Corba model KOM/Op before the Gnome project existed. It just didn't go into any of the stable stuff.
"Code includes dependencies", of course it does. What should people do, not use any libraries when they code? ;-)
Because it is older it is much more functional and now in KDE2 CVS far better integrated because all the features needed are there. Unless I missed something and GMC is a corba component that can embed stuff...
It was just made to prove a point.
Anyway: if someone is interested in writing a good C wrapper, ask me how. Putting work in it it can be made arbitrarily good (within the bounds of C, which are more painful than your message seems to imply)
And the reason HURD exists, is because Linux isn't a GNU project.
...competiton between the hurd developers and the linux developers is probably a good thing.
This may be the case, but at least RMS's enormous ego demands that hurd will be: a) very different from the linux kernel, b) superior in every way, c) more ambitious than any commercial product.
If any of these demands aren't met, all work on the hurd will likely have been in vain...
The diffrence between a "window manager" and a "Desktop environment" is that the "desktop environment" includes a window manager, as well as a bunch of other applications that use the same widget styles.
Yes they did... they have an older version under the GPL now.. not sure whiche version tho. Check thier website
KOffice was using Mico and KOM/OP long before Gnome existed. Please check your own facts.
I have no experience with E or Gnome (though I plan to give Gnome a serious try as soon as it will have matured a little more, meanwhile I have work to do;-), but I have used fvwm quite a while and do a lot in KDE now.
What I have come to install on weaker machines recently is XFCE: really elegant, CDE-like looks, easily user-confugurable, supports drag and drop of a sort and is relatively humble in its demand on the systems ressources.
I do use a mixture of applications from "generic X" and KDE under it, and it probably will interact even better with Gnome-apps, since XFCE is GTK as well.
I can really recommend this for smaller machines.
BTW, since I dont have sufficient documentation with me right now: anyone around who knows if there is an option to start kfm in a way that it doesnt put any icons on the root-window and works only as a file-manager/thumbnail-viewer/browser etc.?
I would like to play with it a little under XFCE, to find out if it interacts well with it, but I dont want the KDE-Style icons.
He/She needs these as well (take some of mine, I'll get more):
% %%%^^^^&&&&&&&&******
......,,,,,,;;;;;;::::::(((((())))))>>>>###$$$$
If only "common" sense was actually that common...
I use KDE, but it has some real annoying bugs. I'm using 1.1, tell me if they're fixed in 1.2. When you have the phone connectivity I have, you don't download the latest and greatest every day, and frankly you also get tired of watching your software versions like a hawk anyhow. But I digress...
Session management: you can't save your session whenever you like, only when you quit. There is no option NOT to save your session when you do quit. Not like session management in any desktop environment, whether win (explorer windows), CDE, gnome, or kde has ever been anything more than a joke anyhow, so I never really use it and would like to keep it off.
Desktop pager: It constantly loses all but the first two desktops. The remaining two lose their names.
Panel: No usable web browser button on the panel. Something like CDE's sdtwebclient would be nice, which uses netscape -remote, or some similar voodoo with hotjava.
Tooltips: Those damn useless tooltips for those equally useless desktop folders pop up unbidden and over any foreground window when the mouse just grazes one, and don't go AWAY unless you "swat" them away with the mouse. Major annoyance, and I can't seem to disable them.
General dumbness: The CD player applet from the panel really amazes me. Click it, it launches. Click play, it plays the CD. Okay, nice. Now click it again, and it launches a NEW instance. Close the rogue instance and it stops the playback. DUH. If there's ever a use for KUniqueApp, this one is *it*.
Help in most apps: the content usually isn't too great, but also, clicking help several times launches multiple instances. Should only be one help instance per app (with an option to clone off the help window)
The notepad app: triple-click doesn't work. Triple click (and sometimes quadruple click) are nice features that work across many text editors including notepad on win and emacs on *nix. Minor annoyance, but enough to really irk me (since i copy and paste lines all the time). The toolbar buttons are also really miniscule.
Bug reporting: it's arcane and bureacratic, relying on specially formatted emails. Some bugs have remained open for over a year now. So I just gripe here instead.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
spurtjizz nutwallop sez, "typical nasty weather!"
At least for me this is the first mention of KDE awareness in Afterstep. I got a similar mail about icewm.
If any WM has support for the KDE hints and stuff, let me know, and they will eventually get a headline in the KDE news page as well.
Why use E with anything? Just use E. It rocks my fro.
apparently the next version of kde will include gnome/enlightenment's wonderful ability to make your desktop cp look like a nintendo console
Today's English Lesson: Oxymorons
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
BTW, does Afterstep have any plans to be Gnome/KDE compliant?
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
Does this mean that the information from gnome hints will actually interact with those from kde hints? I mean, if you're running gnome with enlightenment and need the gnome hints (say for gnome pager) but instead of gmc you want to run kfm (which needs kde hints) would it work?
PS. Even though I've programmed gnome stuff before I've never even TOUCHED window manager stuff so if I don't know what I'm talking about......be nice....
I gave up trying to get Enlightenment *or* Windowmaker working right under gnome. When I have multiple desktops, E+gnome was restoring all my windows in the first desktop, no matter where they were. And when I used Windowmaker under gnome, I would get one set of all the saved windows back where they belong, and another entire set in the current desktop, which is a pain in the ass to remove.
So now I'm using a windowmaker login (rather than a Gnome or KDE login) and I just have Windowmaker start a panel. It works well, the windows come back where they belong.
The only problem I have is that if I add or remove desktops, or add or move icons on the desktop file manager, it crashes X. But I rarely do that, and I never need to.
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
With 0.16 just around the corner this is great news. I've been running the last developer snapshot for a while now, and it's never crashed once. I don't know if it has any leaks in it, but I haven't seen any performance degradation yet ... And speaking of performance, for such a feature loaded bit of software it runs faster on my aging Sparc 5 than any other window manager I've tried - that's some optimisation!
Chris Wareham
Why should E support KDE? It works well on its own. And if you feel more confortable with a desktop environment around your window manager, the GNOME should certainly be enough.
Here is a suggestion:
No, this is not only a flamebait (I am fully aware of the usual flamewars between GNOME and KDE). I am thinking about this seriously. Currently, several companies are reluctant about developing for GNOME because of the GNU GPL (this is the same for KDE, although the problems with the license are different). If GNOME was released under a BSD license, I am sure that these companies would not be reluctant anymore. And then the number of good applications would increase.
Before you object about the fact that these applications would be closed-source, I must say that they do not have to be. But the developers and their bosses would be able to choose, and thus they will not be reluctant to at least look at GNOME and start coding something. And if some very good applications are released under a closed-source license, it will probably not take long before someone implements an open-source equivalent.
Currently, the licenses on GNOME and KDE are only encouraging the fragmentation of the Linux desktop.
The slightly outdated ICCCM specification was an attemt to make toolkits, clients and window managers (which are just specialised clients), communicate with each other. As the Blackbox author points out, ICCCM needs some revision to bring it into the late nineties, but it forms a good basis for ensuring X clients don't behave oddly. I don't know whether olwm (the Open Look Window Manager) was ICCCM commpliant, but it always amazed me that I could run Motif apps under it without any problems ...
Chris Wareham
Some at one point in the brilliant future in which Open Source rules totally, you'll have the choice of OS (Linux, Sun, BSD, etc.), the choice of GUI (KDE, Gnome, etc.) and the choice of winmanagers.
It sure beats trying to pass freedom as the ability to change fonts, colours and wallpaper!
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
Just because KDE is easier to use doesn't mean it's less powerful. This is a common misconception among geek type people. Look at the MacOS, it's probably the most powerful desktop today, if you learn how to use it right. And it's the easiest too. Yes i know, MacOS has SERIOUS flaws, but that's because the Apple developers are putting it's efforts into the GUI instead of the underlying OS.
"Bernoulli was wrong. X proves that you can fill a vacuum, yet still it sucks." - Dennis Ritchie
Did we already had the poll "What is your favourite X11 windowmanager?".
;-)
* afterstep
* amiwm
* ctwm
* Enligthenment
* fvwm1
* fvwm2
* fvwm95 (!!!)
* fvwm-wharf
* KDE
* lwm
* scwm
* tvtwm
* twm
* windowMaker
* my own
* other
* I'm still using X10
* I don't use the X Window System at all
* Rob, Hemos, everybody sux
If yes, then I don't remeber and it's probably time to a repeat it.
(Hey, the current poll is so lame...!)
I think that it will probably be GNOME 2.0 before you can REALLY see proper intergration between applications and GNOME.
The one benefit that GNOME has over KDE is that it has been designed with a CORBA core since the very beginning. This *could* make it easier to get working reliably. KDE 2.0 will have a CORBA layer as well, but it will be added after a lot of development has already been done.
The KDE folks will probably still produce a very respsectable CORBA desktop though.
Tne applications that will make most use of the desktop features will probably office applications suites such a KOffice and the GNOME Workshop.
Iggy
IceWM, on the other hand, had been Gnome-compliant for a long time and supports KDE too.
MarkJ
Newbie - plays around with themes and brags to friends that his/her desktop looks cooler than theirs. Power User - Normally command line user, who doesn't care what his/her desktop looks like. Just wants everything to work so he/she can finish his/her actual work (not the tool developers work).
http://www.progressive-comp.com/Lists/?l=gnome&m=9 0240090207203&w=2 Yes, KDE did have Corba KOM/OP months before the Gnome project was started, KDE just hyped a hell of a lot less.
Glad I use KDE ;-)
for window managers, i would look at the smaller
ones, like wm2, lwm, flwm etc. if you can deal,
maybe 9wm. fvwm at the most. how much ram you need
will also depend on the frame buffer (resolution)
ceretainly NOT enlighenment on that one.
It's a Wind*ze like KDE file manager with double click.
What is X10?
I though it was a device intercommunication spec.
John
John_Chalisque
John
John_Chalisque
I guess all of us "power users" who open many many many transparent Eterms and get lots of "actual work" done (while still having a desktop that is cooler than yours) should just delete E and go back to fvwm, huh???
I actually used to use just plain X (no WM at all), starting up a couple of xterms and an editor in the right places in ~/.xinitrc . Than I tried fvwm/fvwm2/afterstep/windowmaker/etc... But now I have been "enlightened" and have a 3x3 virtual screen full of windows, where I can do quite a lot of real work. I will even be going multihead after Xfree4 comes out (depends on $$$). So after adding another 21" monitor and streching E across it, I will be one happy camper!!
(btw, I remember when E was fvwm-xpm, so there!)
If only "common" sense was actually that common...
KDE will work under any window manager. AS does not include the extra KDE hints like WM, BlackBox, and E does.
That the biggest boosters of KDE seem to be Windows Share/Crippleware crowd? Interesting isn't it?
But KDE compliance isn't ready yet ... not even in the latest snapshot of 0.16, because I've tried it , and kpanel wouldn't start , just sits and waits for windowmanager.
... using enlightment with kde .. yummy ... and .. using enlightment with kde 2.0 ... wow ... The is great news ! :o)
But the ideea is great ! wow
Seems like the quick way to do that is to just bring up kfm and delete the icons from the desktop. "Trash" might fight, since it doesn't seem to include a "delete" option on its context menu, but a quick trip to the shell and rm -rf ~/Desktop/Trash will get rid of it.
Don't know if kfm puts it back or not.
------------
Michael Hall
mphall@cstone.nospam.net
Michael Hall
mph.puddingbowl.org
I installed gnome on my BSD machine yesterday. the process consisted of:
/usr/ports/x11/gnome
cd
make install
done. all dependencies accounted for, etc.
honestly, if you're on BSD it's dead easy, if you're on any major linux distribution, it should be almost equally dead easy, there's a site somewhere (no idea of the URL offhand) which keeps recent versions of gnome on tap in (S)RPM format.
Not only is it a year older, it's several years ahead of Gnome in terms of functionality.
Damn lynx! :)
I do not see OpenLook WM on your list. (Yes I still work with Solaris 2.5)
The new devel Afterstep (the 1.7.x series) has Gnome support.
:(
Disclaimer: I don't use Gnome so I can not attest to how well it works. Also, since I have been without net access at home (only at work under NT) I haven't been able to keep up with the newest devel snapshots.
This sig is false.
KDE is not for newbies and Gnome is not for power users. Both are great for either group. Currently, Gnome is "prettier" but this will change with KDE2.0. At the user level, there's just not much difference. Underneath they have differing architectures which will appeal to different developers. Someone from the KDE group (can't remember who) said that the real power of Gnome and KDE is NOT their interface, but that they are development platforms in disguise. ps. Not all Gnome libs are LGPL. There are a couple that are plain GPL.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Sorry! It was not in the netbsd package tree :-).
what makes KDE for newbies and what makes GNOME for power users. I can find nothing, it sounds like you are parrotting something you heard from a GNOME adovate.
I saw another post mention KWM or KFM or something, is that the WM I'm using?
OK I probably need to RTFM but I haven't figured out how to change window managers in KDE yet, nor how to install Themes or make my own themes. (or even what WM I am currently using )
Any easy answers?
or do I just need to go to themes.org and RTFM?
Is there a good FAQ for this?
Gnome is actually a much better choice for Crippleware. As far as windows users, of course KDE attracts more. KDE works.
Anyways, you can't make share/crippleware on KDE/Qt without the Qt commercial license. KDE/Qt discourages such software and encourages developers to use OpenSource.
One of the things Gnome advocates point out as a flaw with the QPL is you can't make shareware without a commercial license. Not a bad thing IMHO.
REALLY old version.. They didn't 'fall for the GPL'. they just happened to release an old version to be nice..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
KDE1.1.2 contains *much* more than Gnome 1.2, and KDE2.0 already has more than what Gnome *plans* to have.
I think you're missing the point of the BSD style license. If you take a BSD licensed open sourced application, and add a buttload of features that people are willing to pay for, then you can sell the binaries only and not be obliged to release your source changes to the mass public. No one is *making* you buy it. Just use or help develop another free and open source alternative, or help put the changes that the said extension added into the original application and release the source. Freedom of choice is a good thing.
black box is not GNOME complient !! BB is KDE complient I mailed the auther of BB and they replyed saying the WM Spec is AFU GNOME have to lay out how it should be done like ICCCM come on sort it out ! KDE is mostly german euro effort what does that say ? regards john jones
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
What's the difference between window managers like E, and desktops such as KDE/Gnome? What essentially are their contrasting functions?
Also, I'm sticking Linux on a 486/100mhz laptop with 12mb RAM. I know this'll run X, but how about a window manager like E that's a step above, say, twm?
Ok, Windowmaker is the official window manager of the GNUstep project. Does it just use the obj-C libs by default or is GNUstep(the enviroment) running underneth it? Is GNUstep an enviroment like KDE and GNOME? If so Do you run Windowmaker on top of GNUstep on top of KDE/GNOME when you use it with them?
Civ CTP is awesome! Thanks Loki!
Romans 10:9-10
I think I should point out to people who are trying out 0.15 with KDE that the 0.16 release is what will be KDE compliant. We're approaching a feature-freeze right now - and like always I won't give a release date because I usually bite myself in the ass, but I can at least say the feature set has slowed down to allow for bugfixes for 0.16 release
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
Geoff "Mandrake" Harrison
Some Random UI Hacker