Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Ask Havoc Pennington

Posted by Roblimo on from the yes-it's-his-real-name dept.

This week's interview victim ... er, guest ... is Havoc Pennington of Debian and Gnome fame. He's one of the world's most stalwart open source developers, and has recently written a book called GTK+/Gnome Application Development. Please post your questions below. Assorted Slashdot moderators, editors, and hangers-on will select 10 - 15 questions and forward them to Havoc via e-mail Tuesday. Per usual, the complete Q&A session will appear Friday.

30 of 102 comments (clear)

  1. Should we resurrect OpenDoc? by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 4

    I hear a lot of good things about OpenDoc. They say it was the future of document editing. They say it was the glue that made a collection of small applications into an infinitely flexible document creations system. They say it was a work of brilliance, and, better than that, the Right Thing.

    Should it be reimplemented? Should it be part of Gnome?
    --

    --
    Xenu loves you!
  2. question by asad · · Score: 2

    With the sucess of the open source movement do you ever wish back for the obscurity of the good old days ?

    --
    Vidi, vici, veni. (I saw, I conquered, I came)
  3. Dominant GUI for Linux? by rrwood · · Score: 3

    Okay, another question:

    For a long time, I've soul searched over the dilemma fo whether to use Qt/KDE, GTK+/GTK--/Gnome for an app I'll be developing. In particular, I don't want to commit to what will be a dead-end technology and have to switch later. After sitting on the fence for a long time, I've finally decided that there probably won't ever be a dominant, winner-take-all GUI API for Linux, which seems to me to be okay, or even a Good Thing.

    What's your take on the whole matter? Please feel free to babble a bit.....

  4. Re:XFce? by Skeezix · · Score: 2
    In case you weren't aware, XFce is based on GTK+ which you say is so slow.

    --Jamin Philip Gray
    jamin@DoLinux.org

    --
    Celebrate the finer things in life
  5. Desktop Standards by Ivo · · Score: 4

    Hello, I like both KDE and Gnome very much, but still something worries me: What if a company wants to release software (e.g. Borland releasing Delphi) for Linux and they want their stuff to interoperate with other applications (like cut and paste or DND)... It looks like they are going to have to implement both KDE and Gnome stuff to operate with all popular applications. Or is there any effort to fully standardise things like application interoperation? (I once submitted this as an Ask Slashdot question for more general discussion, but I think it looked too much KDE/Gnome war provoking..) Greetings, Ivo

    1. Re:Desktop Standards by BadmanX · · Score: 3

      I think a better way to phrase this question (so that it doesn't instigate a Gnome/KDE war) is, "When do you see Gnome getting some sort of threading capability, like that which makes the Be operating system so integrated?"

    2. Re:Desktop Standards by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2
      Allmost all of this windows developers release their material in a closed source fashion (you won't change this overnigth just because they are using Linux, is windows culture), then they have to pay Troll Tech money.

      Then making Delphi not royalty free (thus changing their policy..., I doubt Borland want this)

      "Not royalty-free" in what sense? The Pricing And Availability page for Qt says that

      There are no royalties, run-time licenses or other additional costs. You can distribute your Qt-based programs either statically or dynamically linked without any additional charges.

      I.e., you have to pay Troll Tech money to get Qt Professional edition, which lets you sell closed-source software, but you do not have to pay them per copy of that software sold.

  6. The future of GNOME by Skeezix · · Score: 4
    Could you give us a rough timeline of what we can expect to see coming from the GNOME project in the next months, and years? Could you give us an idea of when we can expect to see the 1.0.50 and 2.0.0 releases of GNOME? And what will those releases look like?

    --Jamin Philip Gray
    jamin@DoLinux.org

    --
    Celebrate the finer things in life
  7. KDE / Gnome code merge? by Signal+11 · · Score: 5
    There has been alot of discussion about merging KDE and Gnome together either via a universal toolkit, or by actually merging the two code-bases together.

    What are the technical (and legal?) obstacles that need to be overcome for this to succeed? How does the KDE and Gnome developers feel about such a merger? Is there currently any work being done to further this goal at present (by either camp)?

    --

    1. Re:KDE / Gnome code merge? by Kenelson · · Score: 3
      It is highly unlikely that there would be such a merger as the technical difficulties are huge.

      Creating a "universal kit" which functions perfectly in C and C++ is not very likely. If one starts a code base in C, it will not be able to use some of the C++ features like static casting to get a particular virtual. This is a fundimental pitfall. If it is written in C++ it could not be used to derive a type or override a virtual unless some C++ mechanisms are not used. As a writer of the C++ wrapper for gtk+, I can testify to the difficulty. The only way it can work is if the data structures are shared and the front end is written by a code generator for both (thus allowing for both to make good use of their language features.)

      Thus the "best" C kit and the "best" C++ kit may not be the same thing. Therefore, one side would have to settle for a downgraded functionality.

      Personally, I don't think either gtk+ or Qt are perfect even in their own languages and therefore there may be room for such a kit. However, switching to it would involve converting thousands of lines of code and debating over which implementation is better for all the duplicated functionality. It would slow the progress of both kits for a long time and since the point of both is to provide a good unix desktop in the near future such a merger would hurt both.

      This is just my opinion. And I would be glad if someone pointed out a good way to use derived types, multiple inheritance, exceptions and virtual overriding in a C wrapper of a C++ kit, or full use of virtual upcasting in a C++ wrapper. (I could use both.)

      --Karl
      Gtk-- Contributor and Libsigc++ author

  8. High or Low Level Integration? by Christopher+B.+Brown · · Score: 3
    OpenDoc suffered from the problem that it provided and required the use/implementation of a rich API of document object manipulators.

    Thus, while it would be neat to have a whole lot of those "little applications," if it's Rather Difficult to write them, they may not be as little as you'd think/hope.

    The document CORBA and You alludes to this somewhat indirectly, indicating that

    Keep interface exposition at a high level. Not only does exposing low-level interfaces cause increased dependence upon the internal organization of a software system, but it also means you have to put more code into exporting your interfaces, introducing the risk for more bugs and increasing bloat.
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
  9. *Why* is GNOME so slow? by Tet · · Score: 4
    There have been many half hearted explanations for GNOME's poor performance, ranging from Gtk to CORBA to X itself. However, none of those really cut it. Given the responsiveness of standalone Gtk apps, I think Gtk can be ruled out. Orbit is supposedly 3 the fastest CORBA implementation by a factor of 3, even with all the assertions left in. While the X protocol may be somewhat slower than it could be, X is still quite responsive on my old 486.

    I now have an AMD K62-450, and GNOME still feels sluggish, about the same speed as Windows 95 on my P75. That has to be wrong. Yes, GNOME probably does more than W95, including things like network transparency, and the like, but even taking that into account, along with Gtk, CORBA and X itself, you shouldn't be looking at more than, say, reducing performance by half, and that's being pessimistic. In reality, you're looking at GNOME being 3 or 4 *times* slower than it ought to be. Simple question: why?

    --
    "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
  10. Future directions... by Zurk · · Score: 2

    What i'd like to see in GTK/Gnome & other such open source projects is : [1] Better collaboration between the desktops. [2] Standard ways for an application to add its icon to the menu of the WM at install time. [3] Standard help systems so the application can add its help at install time. [4] Standard package formats or a simple one click install of *any* package type. In other words, standardisation and interoperability. I consider anything less to be suicide. So, what do you think about standardising everything ? As a GTK/Gnome developer are you biased towards gnome or willing to work for common standards under linux ?

  11. User-friendliness initiatives by Enoch+Root · · Score: 3
    I believe the development of solid and friendly desktop environments such as Gnome and KDE is a big step in raising public awareness on Linux and other Open Source initiatives. What are the future projects in this direction? What can we expect to see in the future that will push Linux in the public's mind not only as a reliable operating system, but also the support for clean, professional and integrated applications?

    "There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."

  12. Writing a Book by SEGV · · Score: 3

    Havoc, how did you find the process of writing a book? Can you tell us more about the process? How long did it take? How did you find the time? What were some of the hurdles you had to overcome? Are you as pleased with the final product as you imagined when you began? Would you do it again?

    --

    --
    Marc A. Lepage
    Software Developer
  13. Multi-Environment Apps? by Tim · · Score: 2

    Given the amount of work that one has to put into coding/encapsulating KDE-specific and GNOME-specific routines for multi-environment applications, what future do you see in the development of multi-environment frameworks like wxWindows? In your opinion, are these frameworks the best way to create KDE-enabled *and* Gnome-enabled applications for the forseeable future?

    --
    Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
  14. Gnome & GnuStep by Le+douanier · · Score: 5


    Is it possible to use Gnome and GnuStep at the same time AND adding the advantages of both application framework, and this for the user point of view (well, when GnuStep will be at this evel at least) and from the developper point of view (being Gnome aware and using some GnuStep facilities).

    Of course in this question Gnome could be replaced by KDE if a KDE developper want to discuss about it.

    --
    "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
    1. Re:Gnome & GnuStep by Mouse · · Score: 2

      GNUStep is a framework that rides atop the environment in which it sits. In order for GNUStep to become GNOME aware, a GTK/GNOME backend must be written. Once such a backend is created, any GNUStep appilcation running atop that backend would look, act, and feel like a GNOME app. The same could be done for Qt/KDE ...

      The GNUStep folks are looking for folks to volunteer to help in that effort.

  15. New versions of the book by Indomitus · · Score: 2

    With your book being released under the Open Publication License, I was wondering how responsive New Riders seems to the idea of actually publishing updated versions of the book instead of just updating the publicly available version?
    It's a great book by the way, very valuable to GNOME/GTK coding newbies like myself. Thanks.

  16. Programming languages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4
    You are known to be a programmer, and a programmer always has some ideas on languages and tools. What of the currently available languages would be your programming language of choice now? What about two years from now? Why? How would you change it so it becomes the ideal language? What's the worst language you've written something substantial in? How would you change it so it becomes the absolutely most evil language?

    -- just some language freak ;-)

  17. Isn't GNOME lagging behind ?... by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 4

    (OK, this message may be a little provocative)

    I want to compare current status of Gnome and KDE. So I open two Netscape windows, one on www.kde.org, the other on www.gnome.org, and I read what's going on in Desktopland.

    KDE : "Well, we've just finished reimplementing Visual Studio from scratch (the last beta is shipped with Mandrake 6.1), and we're almost done with Office, but you'll have to wait a little because KWord still flicks every now and then"...

    Gnome : "Well, we've got a woooonderful spreadsheet and a nifty little editor, and we're currently working on getting together every piece of productivity software we find to set up some kind of office suite (boy, they call it a 'meta-project' !) and as for develoment tools, well, Emacs is fine after all, isnt'it ?"

    Admittedly, the last sentence is forged. But the rest is painfully true. So far, in massive projects as well as in little funny tools, KDE has the lead and doesn't seem anything like close to lose it.

    This is even becoming a point in the Oh-So-Holy-War of knowing whether Linux should be called "Gnu/Linux" : The day KDE 2.0 ships (and that seems to be very soon), talking about "KDE/Linux" systems will make much more sense for a significant proportion of Linux users who will spend almost all of their time using KDE tools.

    So the question is :

    When are you going to remember that you're actually making a desktop environment - not an academic project - and that this time, unlike older GNU success-stories, you have a tough competitor that stands exactly in the same niche as you ?

     Emacs took almost ten years to become more or less usable by novice users without spending days and nights trying to figure out how to configure X or Y parameters. I'm afraid Gnome won't have as much time as its glorious predecessor to break through. In ten years, people will already have chosen their side. So far, Gnome quite doesn't look like the winner.

    Thomas Miconi

  18. GPL violations by DuaneGriffin · · Score: 3

    Corel's dumb move is just one recent example of companies overlooking or deliberately ignoring the GPL. As free software penetrates further into different areas, especially traditional companies, do you see this as an increasing problem? Given that legal action is expensive, and that there is probably no single entity that could afford to prosecute many infractions, what do you think should be done to address the problem?

    Cheers,
    Duane.

    --
    - "I never could learn to drink that blood and call it wine" - Bob Dylan (Tight Connection to my Heart)
  19. ok then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Ok, here's another question: why does Gnome subjectively feel so slow? It's not something you need benchmarks to prove -- it really does seem slower than it "ought to".

  20. Inspirations... by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 4
    There are a ton of preceding and current desktop environments: KDE, CDE, GNUStep, Windows, MacOS, Xerox Star, BeOS, QNX/Photon, and a whole bunch of others.

    Are there any ideas from other such environments that you think are really neat? Any ideas that you would like to be part of Gnome, or even plan to try yourself?

  21. GTK and Cross platform by johnjones · · Score: 2

    Dear Havoc

    could you tell me if the port to Windows of GTK(Gimp Tool Kit) is valued by the core team ?

    I feel it should be. I understand that a company is porting Gimp to BE O/S and has ported GDK as well so that the great unwashed useing GTK may compile on the BE system (my thanks to you).

    Why care about Windows O/S ?
    well while the Qt widget set is free on linux and *nix, it IS NOT FREE under windows the Trolls want your Money for it.

    Now GTK is GPL and a kind sole (appologies I can not remember your name) ported GTK to windows this ment in my understanding that GTK apps may be recompiled under windows with ease (cygwin for named threads and suchlike)

    this means that GTK is more likely to be used as a cross platform toolkit where before I had to try and embed a TCL/TK interpreter(so people may not change the scripts) I may now use GTK.

    companys are looking for cross platfrom applications now and could GTK be that for them ?

    how do you feel about this situation and what do you think will happen ?

    regards

    john

    p.s. have ordered the GTK/GNOME book look forward to a nice rainy day !


    a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)

  22. Commercial OpenSource GUI by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 2

    Is there room in the Open community for a commercial GUI vendor?
    Would a commercial GUI, OpenSourced, galvanize the focus of Linux at the desktop level?
    At what point do all the pioneers unhitch their penguins from the Linux train and settle on one winner GUI?
    Are there any past commercial GUI's if Opensourced you'd consider "good" for Linux?

    -Rex Riley

  23. What is the Window Manager Status? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    One of my pet peaves with GNOME is the lack of an integrated window manager. Sure there are many window managers that play pretty well with GNOME, but I don't know of one that plays PERFECTLY with GNOME. I use icewm right now, but even it has some annoying hiccups w.r.t GNOME. What are the most GNOME compliant window managers out there right now? Has there been any progress on GNOME adopting a default window manager (now that E has kind of gone its own way)?

  24. Glade by ajs · · Score: 3

    I hear things about Glade getting sucked into core GNOME libraries as a way of dynamically reconfiguring applications (an ambitious goal!) How much planning has been done for this, and is it expected to impact application performance?

  25. What do you think makes Gnome special? by extrasolar · · Score: 2
    Mr Pennington:

    I was wondering, of all the things Gnome does well, what do you think separates Gnome from from everything out there? Why do you think someone should use Gnome as their Unix desktop enviroment?

    Thanks for your time,

    Kevin Holmes
    "extrasolar"
    klh@sedona.net

    --

  26. gnome by MaxAttack · · Score: 2

    what inspired u to write gnome ?