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Is Qwest's ISP Deal Really Worth the Hassle?
"My husband and I were paying $21.95/mo for our dialup access. We were also paying more than the difference - $3 - in long distance each month while definately using less than 250 minutes. So we thought, "Hey, this sounds like a good deal. Let's go for it." So we did. After attempting to sign up and being told there was some sort of problem with our phone company and that we'd have to call the 1-800 number to set up our account, the wierdness started. We never called the 1-800 number, but a week or so later, we got a call from MCI (our old long distance carrier) asking if we wanted to switch back - or why we switched in the first place. The poor telemarketer basically hung up when my huband told them we were getting a *far* better deal - they couldn't compete. So we figured, 'Hey, the changeover must have happened. Cool, I wonder when our Inernet Account will be active.' However, we didn't get any sort of confirmation from Qwest for another week or more, and only then after they had sent us 2 copies of a CD containing netscape (which I, naturally, thought was extraneous since I already had Netscape installed on all of our linux boxes). My husband finally sat down this past weekend with one of these CDs, and read through the info packet - the requirements of Win95/98 are apparently set stone. You have to install *their* version of Netscape in order to even *register* for their Internet service. You cannot get your account open unless you use their software that is either imbedded in, or integrally tied to, the copy of Netscape they send you. Which only runs on Win95/98 (according to them - not even NT!).
We tried everything we could to get it working under Linux - no go. My husband called Qwest, and they said the only way to activate your account is via *their* software. Which is Microsoft-centric. Which is not something I'm sure I want to deal with. Yes, we have dual-boot systems, but Win95 doesn't seem to work well on my husband's machine, the only one other than the server, which is linux-only, with a modem. We have yet to move a modem to our third machine (mine) and trying to boot to windows to do it that way. Though I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the effort. What if they've got some funky setup where we can't get all the information we need to be able to set it up in Linux? Then we're pretty much hosed. Are all 'large-scale' ISPs this way? I know Mindspring - while not actively *supporting* Linux - does have many linux-using customers who don't have WinX around to initialize their account. I know there are Linux users using AT&T and AOL. Can you get those accounts without having to go through a WinX middle-OS? Has anyone else had any experiences with Qwest, or know of any work-around to get your account set up? We're already rather close to cancelling the whole deal - but the price just seems too good to be true for what you get. I suppose it is - considering you have to sell your soul to Microsoft just to sign up. "
Is it just me or do some of you find the practice of requiring a specific Operating System to access the Internet? If Qwest is really making this a hard and fast requirement, then they should point this fact out to potential customers especially since the deal forces you to change your Long Distance carrier as well. I wonder how many other unsuspecting folks have been caught by this.
Use this information wisely, and please don't go researching phone numbers, do you remember what you did to the poor woman at Unisys? Keep the comments rational, and don't overreact just yet, you don't know all the information. Maybe a rational query of Qwest will turn it up.
Anyway, Qwest's feedback page.
Regards,
Basically it works like this, the CD that is sent out by sales includes a product code that keeps your billing in order as well as creates your login. This can also be done by calling the support line, NOT sales. We had the ability to create the account while the customer was on the phone AND give them the mail, DNS and dialer settings. The hitch is that the required connection type is PAP, not PPP. The Linux users that I spoke with could not get a PAP login to work, which is the way Dial Up Networking in Win95/98 will connect. So this Qwest deal is fine, the trick is knowing when to call tech support.
And a further extension of the "OS Discrimination" is that roughly 85-90% of users are using Windows (3.x, 95, 98, 2000) or Mac OS. These systems are also the ones taught in school (K-12 and beginning college courses). The problem with getting an ISP to fully support Linux all lies in the training. Most ISPs can provide general settings, but not troubleshoot specific problems. One would see much the same if they were using OS/2 or BeOS. The added cost to train individuals in these systems is far greater than the benefits, because there is more to a PPP connection than a dialer, the rep needs to understand the underlying OS in order to make "tweaks" that will allow support for some modem strings, and general error code checks.
I know that this is going to draw flames, but what should a Windows user expect these days?
It's clear from both the original article and the other comments from people who have dealt with Qwest that this was not an issue of simple trouble configuring Linux.
Qwest requires additional information to initiate the account. The only documented way to supply that information, and start the Qwest account, is to connect with their Windows software. In other words, they effectively prevent non-windows users from accessing their service. Some people suggest good workarounds, but Qwest is not volunteering any such information. Considering how much money Microsoft is dumping into Qwest, this behaviour is hardly surprising.
I don't expect every ISP to fully support every operating system out there. I do think it is reasonable to expect every ISP out there to support generic TCP/IP. That is to say, someone who knows how to configure TCP/IP and communications on their OS of choice should be able to get the basic information and connect with it, without needing any special software. That is not too much to ask, but too many big ISP's (eg. Qwest, AOL, Compuserve) refuse to support this basic level of connectivity.
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Open mind, insert foot.
The people who set these kinds of policies are costing their companies money and should be fired. Mac users, in particular, form a significant share of the home market.
Keeping the setup procedure standard would 1/ reduce development costs (why customize the browser?) 2/ reduce support costs (users who know their way around a standard installation wouldn't have to call for help), 3/ increase revenue (10% is actually a whole lot of revenue when you figure their infrastructure costs are more-or-less fixed - most of the 10% would be straight profit).
Nobody is saying their customer service has to support every OS in the world, but making it easier for anybody to connect (with any operating system) is good business.
I get really annoyed when Dilbertesque executives display their incompetance so clearly.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
If MS were involved in this, I doubt it would be Netscape shipping on those Quest CD's... I think Quest is just catering to what they think is the largest installed userbase. Ask if they have a Mac version of the software, if not, the politely tell them that You cannot use they're service until a version for you favorite platform is available. Then watch how quickly they react....
Do not read this
Dreamweaver's okay as far as visual web apps go. But if there's one dream program that I know of, it's BBEdit. It doesn't suck, and it edits text like a champ, with lots of little extras that help a lot (like grep for those of us with no grep in the OS).
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
My new ISP uses Solaris and Linux internally, so it's not hard to find a geek there who can help me out. This is an advantage of dealing with a small ISP. I signed up with them for my sDSL Service, and they were kind enough to hook me up with dialup while my DSL was delayed at the switch. This was good, because my former ISP (one of those 3 NT boxes and a terminal server in a rack sorts of ISPs) couldn't seem to make reverse DNS function consistently... and my 6 month contract was up.
My new ISP is even going so far as to set up the static address block that I requested, on my dialup, so I can just hop over to the DSL when it becomes available. And they use Linux.
Bell Atlantic has almost the same policy. But I was able to get through to customer service and convince them that I could set it up on my own. They just had to provide me with the information. They don't offer free long distance, though
Bellsouth's DSL service isnt anything out of the ordinary. They do get uptight if they _know_ Linux is involved. Just bait and switch them. They use the MAC address for the DHCP server. Give them a 95 machine with a nic in it and let the Bellsouth guy do his Bellsouth thing, and move the nic to another box (or reboot if it's dual boot :P), and all is well. This is the case for most DSL and cable ISP's. It's easier to let them think they have done what they are supposed to than to fight them.
There's a verification number in the CD package they sent me, but no way to get online without the CD.
So I booted in Windows and used their CD. It took me to their special full-screen login session, I went through it, and then got set up.
After that, I went through the Dial Up Networking, pulled all the information about the connection from there, went into IE, pulled the proxy information from there, rebooted, entered the information into Linux, and viola! I'm using the ISP from Linux.
~mindlace
The problem is that they are supporting operating systems instead of communications standards. I don't want my ISP to support my OS; I want them to support TCP/IP. If they even ask what OS I'm running, then something is terribly wrong with them.
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Have a Sloppy day!
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
As you somewhat note at the end...there's a big difference between "supporting" (as in being able to answer technical support questions), and having a setup that supports (as in, it can work) an operating system. Qwest seems to have made a conscious choice to only support (as in, it can work) Win95/98. That's dumb, IMHO. Its just not that terribly hard to set up an ISP so that a wide variety of operating systems work.
Jeff
>Not only is this a reinforcement of the Microsoft monopoly (are they paying ISPs to do this?)
MSFT has made several significant investments and "strategic partnerships" with Qwest, so...basically, yes.
Jeff
What I'd like to see is one of the Linux Support vendors step up and build a contract with some of the major ISPs. That way, if you are having Linux problems, you call AOL, and AOL refers you to their Linux Support Vendor.
:) They do support for a number of other companies, too like HP and Compaq.
:)
Actually this scenario is not too far fetched. Lots of ISPs already farm out a lot of their support. A perfect example is Concentric Network, which farms out a good portion of their support to a company in Southfield, MI called National Tech Team. You don't even know you're being connected to a different company: their 800 number simply transfers calls to NTT's HQ in Southfield.
I know this because I know a few people who have worked for NTT in this capacity. (And from what they tell me, you do NOT want to work in their call center. But thats a different story
It would be just as simple for AOL or Earthlink or whatever to forward you to some support vendor like LinuxCare ("IF you have windows 95 or 98 press [1]. If you have Linux press [2]...")
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a company like LinuxCare did that.
Lots of vendors say that they don't support other platforms, when in fact they are just using a standard PPP link. My service provider at one time fell into that category (I had to figure out how to setup Linux, and I didn't even have anything like easy like whats in KDE or Gnome--I had to setup chat and pppd by hand.) FlashNet has some very limited (Web-only) Linux support (i.e., you can download scripts and whatever from their page) but no phone support for Linux users.
Whats funny is that a number of their servers are Linux based.
My journal has hot
We have a linux router hooked up to Mediaone's cable modem service. Of course, they don't support linux. But they don't stop us from using it either.
:)"
Whenever I call up there tech support when I think the problem is on their end, I act as a Windows - Linux Translation layer:
Tech support guy: "Does your winipcfg box have all zeroes in it?"
Windows-Me: "Not getting DHCP OFFER"
Linux-Me: "Hmm, checking.... Nope, no offer message."
Real-Me: "Yes, all zeroes. Give me an IP, damnit
Some of the ideas suggested here, like only supporting certain communications protocols seems inpractical, unfortunatly. Tech support has to be able to reliably walk the _average_ user through a series of steps which will reliably fix the problem. Otherwise support costs spiral up.
I know, i know, linux users aren't average users. But, well damnit, we want linux on the desktop don't we?
-Snoot
I just dail up the Boston access number and got dumpped into Concentric Network. I am wondering if Qwest is bumming bandwidth off of their partners? That is one of the problems I have had with ISP's. Everyone is using someone elses Network. My Earthlink account runs through PSI here in boston or Sprint, depending what number I dial. I have found that Sprint's dial up network is much faster then PSI to my servers.
:) I would be interested if they are using Concentric everywhere.
Start up minicom and check your local Qwest number.
Chris Southern
Take it from someone who *knows* Qwest; NOTHING is worth doing business with them. They can't even do PRI's properly, much less an ISP.
I just moved out of state. And out of the range of my original ISP. (They don't service this area.) On top of that, where I moved to has exactly *three* NXX exchanges local. (THANK YOU BELL ATLANTIC, YOU WORTHLESS BASTARDS.) And an old AT&T 4ESS switch formerly owned by Bell of Pennsylvania. Well, I wasn't about to pay $.12/min for 800# access (it costs most ISPs upwards of $.155/min for 800# calls! Not you; THEM!) and I wanted to keep with them.
The solution? I got a local dialup (the only ISP in the *state* that serves my NPA/NXX local) till I move and get my PRIs. I made arrangements with my ISP to prepay for my email for the next year, and they're letting me keep my webpages there too. I got a local dialup account, with the intent of cancelling in about 3 months, and I'm all set.
And if all else fails, remember, some of the national people will work with anything. Afterall, it's just ppp. If you can setup your account on the phone, assume you can connect with Linux. PPP is PPP is PPP. All that you need is your authentication method (plaintext, PAP, CHAP, PAP+CHAP, CID+CHAP, etc. (At home, I had a CID+PAP setup.)) your username, your password, your dns servers, any weird options like gateway and such, and you're good to go!
Good luck.
-RISCy Business | Rabid unix guy, networking guru
your company here.
shelby != ford
Remember, it's Internet Exploder on all those AOL CDs we like to use as frisbees, and AOL owns Netscape! So even if MS is a part-owner of Qwest, it doesn't mean they won't ship with Netscape.
AOL made that deal before they bought out Netscape. AOL uses MSIE for a place on the Windows disk. If I remember the rumors correctly, AOL will switch to a Mozilla based browser sometime in the future (AOL 5?). But for the time being AOL doesn't want to give up their place on the Windows desktop.
This is unfortunate, but it's a support issue. AOL, AT&T and Qwest have all found that the more platforms you support, the more you have to spend on technical support. Which means they take a long hard look at the market, and decide they can live without the ~10% of home users who are not using an MS operating system. My mom went through the same thing with a local ISP, and she's got a Mac. _After_ purchasing a year's worth of the service, when she announced to them that their connection software didn't work, and the ISP found out that she was on a Mac, their first suggestion was, "Buy a Windows 98 PC."
What I'd like to see is one of the Linux Support vendors step up and build a contract with some of the major ISPs. That way, if you are having Linux problems, you call AOL, and AOL refers you to their Linux Support Vendor.
In my experience (and I've only had a few ISPs, and one of them was my old college), they only _say_ that you have to use WinXX to access their systems, because that's all they support. I've always been able to figure out what their software was doing and configure ppp to work, but then again I've never had a national ISP.
I am the king... of No Pants! www.penny-arcade.com
Many linux users would have a copy of named running as a caching nameserver. This would be configured to use the root nameservers (easy to find out) and named would handle the recursion part of the queries. This has the advantage of being totally portable across ISP's and you can also set up your own zones if you require.
So, in short, Linux users don't need to know the ISP's DNS servers, although they could configure them to be forwarders to reduce some traffic. Windows users, however, since they don't normally have a local nameserver, can't use the root nameservers, as AFAIK, the root server will not answer recursive queries.
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Exigo spamos et dona ferentes
Why do they require a customized browser to sign up? I personally never signed up online, but wouldn't signing up for an ISP basicly be:
1> dial their 800 number
2> login as guest
3> goto their website
4> fill out the form
5> hit submit
6> receive an username/pw/local access number
???
_______________________________________________
There is no statute of limitation on stupidity.
A lot of these responses aren't making a clear distinction between non-Win9x "support" and "tolerance." It's reasonable for a company to say that "if you don't run software X.Y.Z we can't offer you help ON YOUR SOFTWARE," it's a far different thing when the company acts like they have *no* responsiblity to answer *any* question if you aren't running that particular program.
As others have pointed out, the bottom line is that *every* network connection comes down to a handful of parameters which easily fit onto an index card. Either the company can provide them or they're blowing smoke and *can't* be trusted. Period.
(That said, some networks, esp. cable modems, use additional authenication methods. But again they should be able to concisely describe it ("kerberos with extensions) instead of waving the magic "proprietary software" wand.)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I've had the same problem of Windows-only, proprietary internet clients with AOL (I'd switch but my parents pay the bill). My aspirations of completely abandoning Windows are impaired by there not being an AOL client for Linux.
Wine runs the AOL software just fine for the most part, but as far as I know there's no way to interface the kernel's networking code with AOL's PPP connection (ie. I want to be connected to AOL through WINE and be able to use all the command line net utilities.
I don't know enough about the internals of WINE to discover whether this is feasable. Does anyone know how hard this would be to implement, or how you'd even do it?
Actualy, I think they own 10 percent stock in MANY different ISPs and long distances carriers. I recall reading that the 10 percent limit is to avoid monopoly laws.
Let's face it, 99% of the people using any ISP are going to think a subnet mask is something one of Batman's enemies wears. You can tell them their default gateway setting but unless you can tell them how to implement it, it does them no good. Therefore they have to support individual OSs, and it would please me no end if each ISP had an entry in their support database on how to set the TCP/IP settings in every OS from Windows 3.1 to FreeBSD to AmigaOS.
Where you're correct is that at the very least, the second-tier support personnel at an ISP should know enough about TCP/IP to be able to troubleshoot a connection. Most first-tier support personnel have been trained to read off a troubleshooting chart, but not what to do when there are problems that are off the list. It would be great if all support personnel were trained in these arts, but as much as I would have liked to see it back when I was doing Windows 95 support, it just isn't cost effective. Training is time is money, and most support companies are reluctant to spend any money they don't feel like they have to. Unfortunately they haven't figured out yet that they really have to.
--
Someone you trust is one of us.
I seem to recall a registry hack that made games think that NT was really 9x and play instead of displaying a simliar message. Perhaps it would help?
See this great NT Registry Page
Here is more info from a different site
How can I bypass "This game require Windows 95" ?
The SETWIN95.CMD program has the ability to make a program think it is running under Windows 95. If a game comes up with a message like "This game requires Windows 95" when you try to run the game, then you can try SETWIN95.CMD on To use SETWIN95 do the follow: Put in the NT 4.0 CD, Copy setwin95.cmd and imagecfg.exe from \support\debug\i386 in your system path. You can use SETWIN95 with setwin95 title.exe.
You don't neccessarily have to pay more. In fact, you can pay less. I worked for an ISP that provided simple net access for $10/month. No tech supp for NT or Linux, but you could easily set it up, even with only the information we sent out to new signups (usually along with a cd for Win9x/NT or Mac).
This was a fairly small ISP, so it might be that only the larger ISPs make silly requirements like Qwest has.
The reason Qwest requires Win9x is to simplify support. NT is very different to configure for dial-up than 9x is, and don't even talk about Linux or Mac (or BeOS, or any other O/S). They want to be able to offer good support. What they don't seem to realize is that most Linux users won't call for tech supp, or if they do, it's because they want to know the IP of the DNS servers, or ask some other intelligent question, instead of calling up and saying "I can't connect" and expecting the tech to fix it.
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END OF LINE
Recently I was travelling in California on business and wanted to set up an account with a no-brainer ISP so that I could check my e-mail (and Slashdot ;->) easily and without long-distance phone charges. I looked at all the majors with national POPs and they all had great deals for $20/mo +/- a few bucks, and places like Sprint and MCI also had options for ISP/Long Distance packages similar to the Qwest deal.
In most of these cases even the $20+/- mo ISP deals required the use of proprietary software (or customized versions of common software) a'la the Qwest deal in order to be able to sign up. After about 2-3 hours of searching for the right deal, I finally decided on an acceptable deal from MindSpring which was *primarily* based on the fact that they had a client which supported NT (I've got NT on my laptop, as well as Linux) and also happened to publish their networking info so you could hand-configure a client as well.
I was pretty annoyed that all the "great" deals required that you use Windows 95/98. Not only is this a reinforcement of the Microsoft monopoly (are they paying ISPs to do this?), but it requires one to use an OS with no security and poor stability regardless of whether or not you are a user of greater technical sophistication and higher requirements.
Essentially, people who know what they are doing are being require to pay a premium for service that will support them, even if their service needs (simple e-mail and connectivity) happen to match up with the lower level users. Why should I have to pay more for the SAME service just because I want to use Linux, or even NT?
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
A "semi-local" ISP, Texas.net, doesn't really care what OS you use. Yeah, they only do tech support for Windows and I think Mac, but do you really need some annoying registration process that requires certain software? They don't seem to think so. Personally, I've found that it's quite simple to set up dial-up on Windows without knowing a damn thing about their configuration or anything else besides the phone number. :)
You don't have to spend money on tech support, you just say that Linux is not supported, but that we don't require you to use something else. Registration doesn't have to be all complicated. It's ridiculously easy, in fact. At least it is with ISPs like Texas.net, since they don't dick you around. :)
~ Kish
I have used Mindspring before, and if memory serves me correct, you can simply sign up over the web. It worked perfect in every OS I tried, Linux, FreeBSD, Windows 9x/NT, and BeOS. But, since my work has an 800 dialup, that makes my life much easier now.. and it too works with all OS's.. though they would hate it if they knew I wasnt using Windows... ARGGGGGG
Pointing to http://slashdot.org/www.qwest.com
instead of http://www.qwest.com
This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you
http://www.qwest.com/aboutqwest/contact.html
This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you
I have been a customer of Qwest since early this year. I was happy when they lowered by monthy service charge and gave me a internet account. I was a little anoyed when I had to use a windoze box to set up my account. After installing thier custom netscape, and going through the sign up process, I simply copied down the:
- username
- password
- mail server
- pop server
- news server addresses.
After this I simply set up my linux box in the same fashion.I Agree they should have a less windows centric approach to the internet account setup. They should atleast offer an advanced setup option.
BTW they are using concentric's dial up lines. see www.concentric.com for access numbers.
On an aside, we do support any and all OS' with reasonable TCP/IP support, and we set up our customers' computers in our shop (for free) if they cannot do it themselves... There are still good ISPs out there :-)
GPL: Free as in will
I joined the same Qwest deal, and found out you can point your browser at this address: https://admin.customlink.net/reg/reg.cgi?vpn=qwest internet.net that is correct, a https:// (secure) set-up your info there and enter your software code. Then when it tries to auto-launch your dial-up, cancel that and set-up your own DUN using the phone number the sign-up page gave you. in the login put cl/username@qwestinternet.net all other settings are automatic, IP, DNS etc. This circumvents the annoying installation of their proprietary version of Netscape. It also allows you to decide when you want to dial-up, not allowing their version to dial up when it damn well pleases. I quit Qwest the next day, however. Their upstream speed didn't even seem to be v.34. At 19200 I was getting poor latencies. The packet loss is low, but the latency blew. I usually make 33600 v.34 connections, and most of my upstream v.90 connects are at 26400. Qwest doesn't even manage their own ISPs, they contract to Concentric! This is directly contrary to what a tech told me. I asked, "does the dial-up have a direct connection to Qwest's nationwide OC48 system" the answer was yes, the truth is NO.