Slashdot Mirror
Download.com Features Linux Distro
Morpheous writes "C|Net Download.Com is showcasing Armed Linux, which apparently is similar to WinLinux 2000 (it runs on top of Windows). Unfortunately, the website doesn't give too many details, except that they are attempting to create the "easiest" to use distro of Linux yet."
fusiongyro sez:
... or are computers just tools for end-users? As much as I enjoy the toy factor, I am painfully aware of how end-users are impacted by closed systems such as Windows, with all that implies (we need not retread those arguments here).
I don't have a problem with people learning to use Linux. I have a problem with everyone trying to make life simple for the users, because that's just going to invite them to come in and stomp all over what we've made so far. There is a difference between teaching users, and catering to them. We have to draw a line.
You are obviously not in the business of building computer systems for end-users, or you'd realize just how ridiculous you sound.
Are computers toys for hackers
My objective in supporting Linux is to have an OS that can be used in a corporate environment, with a much smaller total-cost-of-ownership, and reasonable support requirements. Now, Windows ain't gonna go away, but Linux has a shot at occupying a big chunk of the corporate market.
In other words, I'm not supporting Linux because I think Torvalds is cool and open source is cool and I like being part of a subculture and, oh yeah, Microsoft is evil; I'm actually supporting Linux because it's better for people.
And I'm sorry, but in the real world, easy-to-use is a big part of that, too.
Your "let's keep Linux arcane and difficult so the masses don't find out about it" argument is juvenile. As far as I'm concerned, Linux advocacy does not need people like you. You don't "love Linux"; you love being part of the Linux subculture, and you want to keep it exclusionary and secretive. You're part of the problem. Please stop.
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
...can I assume this is pronounce "Ar-mhed"?
Otherwise it sounds like some high crypto/security release:
"Man, you're not running *BSD; from my perspective, you're a security risk."
"No way dude, my Linux box is ARMED!
...to exterminate all linux users.
;)
#include xfiles.h
Let's see.. it's a linux distro that behaves with windows... to learn more about it (what.asp), you come to a page with cute women -- the graphic is entitled 'chick.gif', for goodness' sake!
Are they really just using sex appeal to lure people over to the dark side, never to return?
Incidentally, I know I've seen that graphic elsewhere before. Anyone know what it's from?
[soapbox-mode ON]
:) Even then, it was still hard: I had to manually configure everything. Now its easier. So what?
What's so bad about them? Because the run UMSDOS, which is slow? Because users don't have to tinker with cryptic config files?
My first distro was Slackware. I set it up on a UMSDOS to try it out (because I didn't want to have to wipe out "working" system...little did I suspect that my machine wasn't working half as well it does now
Myself, I compare this my online experiences. When I first started out online, I had to figure out how to configure cryptic terminal emulator packages like ProComm (not even PLUS!) and learn silly things like baud rate, parity, stop bits. I had to learn to use download and upload protocols. I had to configure my offline mail reader with an ASCII text file (BlueWave). Later, when I setup my own BBS, I had to learn goofy things like FOSSIL drivers and mailer frontend software.
Then comes along things like Prodigy and AOL and they RUIN EVERYTHING. Now anyone and their mother can get online with point and click.
So what? It means more people get to be online. It means that people who don't care about computers the way hackers do, people who use comptuers as a TOOL can finally get to enjoy the things that we have come to enjoy.
The same holds true for Linux. If point and click installation programs that install the thing non-destructively on Windows boxes is what it takes for Linux to reach critical mass, SO BE IT. It means that Linux will get used by a wider audience and the community will grow. People will see why we like Linux so much, and maybe they'll switch to a full Red Hat or Debian distribution. Maybe they'll toss out Windows, and if enough people do that, so long Microsoft, so long Windows. The world will be a better place.
[end soapbox mode]
My journal has hot
Slackware has supported UMSDOS installs since at least 3.5, probably before.
Mandrake has always, as far as I know, supported an install to a loopback file, which is actually a bit better than UMSDOS for rather obvious reasons.
There are TONS of other distributions like this, what makes this one so special?
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
On the FAQ-page the last question:
/forums/default.asp, line 11
;). Also NetCraft says it "is running Microsoft-IIS/4.0 on NT4 or Windows 98".
Q: Why ASP pages?
A: They are quick, easy, and will run on Linux now! We use PERL too.
Why, then, do I get a page looking like:
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '8007000e'
[Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] System resource exceeded.
when I go to the page http://www.armed.net/forums/default.asp (update before I could post this. It now says "Sorry, temporarily offline due to the Slashdot effect."
I guess the word 'will' is an important word here. Personally I don't trust an OS (or in this case a distribution) whose web server is not running on it. (I've heard some Microsloth sites are running Linux. Anybody got any facts on this?)
I doubt, therefore I may be.
Ah, simply that fact that it is?
Okay, so Armed Linux *doesn't* do anything more then some of the other Distro's do that allow you to use a fat partition to install Linux on. But remember, first thing is that download.com can't list *every* like software package. They listed one, that's cool. Someone probably let them know about that distro and they thought it was cool. They probably don't even *know* that there are others that do the same thing. After all that is largely an ungrasped concept in the Windows world. 3 different versions of Linux that all do the same thing? WoW! Perhaps if that bothers you, you could drop them a kind e-mail pointing out the other similar distributions. Or maybe they did know about the others and chose this one as the best for their site. WinLinux' FTP site has been swamped the last few days, that probably cuts them out for a link on download.com.
-Brent--
Look at the site design. That's pretty hip, yet concise. Perhaps a bit too sparse on detail, agreed. Then again, their site is crawling right now... I haven't checked it all out yet. What I noticed was that it's very unlike most open source sites (well, apart from Raster, /. and a few others). First of all, the site looks designed for the Gap generation. A picture out of Friends almost. Or, to put it bluntly, clearly aimed at pop culture. /., the lpd project, hell, RH, gnome, kde, etc. are all much more designed to keep us more typical linux/open source users happy with news, software, toys...
I find this stuff interesting, the sort of cultural differences online and to sort of see an example of the meshing of the two is an example of what might come in the next few years. People are hearing about Linux in the news. Some are curious. But most already tackled the basic learning curve of Windoze and that's all they know. Now they're promised a safe route through installation that promises not to touch windoze, and then they have a dual boot with little hassle, or so they're promised. That's what a lot of people want, something that doesn't threaten them.
So, as I see it, it's just another marketing approach to distribute a product. I don't know anything about the people behind the distro. I plan on finding some out if possible. But if they're aiming to be a consumer distro, I feel you can see where they're aiming. Not the distro for me or the servers I play with, but some people targetting a new market. RH might be doing quite well in the news and market, but they're still aiming for the more tech oriented than most users out there.
I can't wait until the next round in the drive for the consumer market. We've got Corel coming in as well now. Each with a different marketing approach. Armed seems to really be aiming for the home user, and that alone.
Just a few of my ramblings...
UMSDOS? oh yuck. why don't they put their root on a loopback mounted large file in the vfat partition? I'd definitely do it that way if I had to install Linux on Windows w/o repartitioning.
I went to buy a new NIC tonight at Best Buy (I should really stay away from that place) and asked a very helpful customer service agent if any of the NICs supported Linux. "Gosh, nobody done asked us that before." Finally I find one that says in black on green letters "Linux." Oh, yeah, the point? The guy behind me in the aisle was looking for a PCMCIA(NSA) card for his laptop, seems he wanted to get a bit more life out of it, using Linux. He was about 46 bald, greying and wanting to learn what everybody is talking about. Young and old, theeey'rrree heeerrrreee.
+&x
I installed Armed linux after I read a post last week dealing with WinLinux. It installs from the DOS prompt. It is based on Red Hat from teh nearest I can imagine. It sets up everything (mounting file systems and all that) without the user. Then it goes to a nice graphical interface to set up mouse, keyboard, video etc. That of course didn't work for me for some odd reason because it wouldn't boot into the system. So i ran x86config and set everything up and it worked fine. The video was still really bad, but I couldn't find my exact monitor specs and I think that was the problem. This is my second linux install. I installed RedHat early this summer and this install was no easier. The only problem I had last time was getting the video to work and that is my same problem now. So I guess what I am saying is that from a newbie standpoint this install was no easier than the real one. And Armed Linux has a very slimed down version red hat, it is missing some software. So overall, I don't recommend it.
I can just imagine guidance counsellors noticing that Little Johnny is taking interest in something that is, um, apparently related to weapons...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
They want to be the "easiest" distribution.. but they aren't using KDE (or even GNOME)?
I dunno who their beta testers have been but the newbies *I* know would freak out having to use WindowMaker or Enlightenment on their own...
These are Linux distros with Windows-based installation programs. That's the novel feature -- the installation is like any other Windows program. Simplified transition for the newbie.
Both distros also run on UMSDOS (the Unix on DOS file system), a feature which has been around for ages. It means that you don't need to repartition or create filesystems to run Linux (it also means you can blow away Linux from within Windows or DOS).
Neither distro "runs on top of" windows in an executable sense. You get a dual-boot system. You choose, either, or. But both installation and execution (icon-based launcher) are streamlined.
These aren't power-user systems, they're introductory packages for getting Linux to the masses. Realize that a tool is a tool, and there are different tools for different problems. I think it's a neat concept. I probably won't install it myself (I'd have to go out and buy Windows first ....).
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
it was egg.microsoft.com I don't know if it's still up though.
War is necrophilia.
Technologically, Phat seem to be most mature and advanced, featuring the option of installing to a loopback file as well as UMSDOS, giving potentially better performance. I can't compare the hardware detection in the various products. I presume Armed doesn't do loopback, but their web server won't serve me any pages today, so I can't tell.
But technology will not determine success. My take on the ones which will succeed are as follows:
- WinLinux2000 will win. It has the most accessible and descriptive name. It will appeal to Windows users. PhatLinux is an obscure hackerish joke on the name of the file system. Armed Linux sounds like a secure distro, not a newbie intro.
- Mandrake 6.1 may grab the market if they chose to push this feature, on the basis of their reputation as a conventional distribution. Corel could do even better if they wanted to do UMS or loopback installs, because they have the Windows brand-name recognition.
- DemoLinux will do well, and probably make lots of magazine coverdisks. Again, most importantly, the name says what it is.
Armed are going to take stick for their choice of web hosts, and the fact that their pages are unavailable whenever their product is in the news. Which seems perfectly fair to me.As a community out technical efforts are occasionally sabotaged by lack of attention when it comes to image.
glait:/opt/nephtes/src\>host www.armed.net
www.armed.net has address 208.141.56.223
glait:/opt/nephtes/src\>host www.halfpricehosting.com
www.halfpricehosting.com has address 208.141.56.249
Same subnet.
So the reason the server is IIS is because that's what their hosting service uses. Now, you could argue that they ought to be pickier about who hosts their site, but at least they didn't actually decide to set up an NT web server to sell Linux! (No personal interest, incidentally, just thought I'd shed some light.)
Steve 'Nephtes' Freeland | Okay, so maybe I'm a tiny itty
your conclusions are wrong. just because there are some distros that make linux easier to use, etc, shouldn't mean anything to someone who doesnt want to use that distro. they are not putting this stuff in the linux kernel you know. there will always be slackware (or something like it) for those who really want to or have the time to get into linux (read geeks). for the rest, why not let them get a glimpse of linux?
you never know, maybe some little kid is gonna look at his dads computer running cnets linux, and wonder about it and learn more about linux in general, and even someday end up writing code thats useful for you (or at least me anyway) if it hadnt been for that maybe the kid would have ended up writing really bad code for m$.
if everyone in the world used linux, there would still be a core of geeks who had a less user friendly version or whatever. this wouldnt be splintering or fragmenting or whatever. there would still be one kernel.
i personally am pretty geeky, and wish i had time
to learn enough about linux to write my own software. but i dont, so i installed redhat and
gnome. but who knows, maybe someday ill have a
chance to write some cool open source software, ill be glad that redhat was around when i got started
great more point-and-click linux... i still disagree with it!
That is your right, and a fine thing to do. Nobody is going to force you or anybody else to use "point-and-click" Linux.
Linux is about choice. Some people want just a console. Others want a Windows95 look-alike. Others want Enlightenment with transparent terminal windows and motion video as a desktop background. One of the great things about Linux is that any or all of this is possible, at your choice.
I don't think we have to worry about crap programmers on Linux. Sure, crap programs can appear. They already do. But again, it is your choice to use them or not. Unlike certain other software monopolies I can think of, nobody is going to force you to use crap software.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
( e.g. - "Based on Red Hat Linux, with our additional tools," "Based on Debian, Plus Our Stuff," ...)
And whatever other information would be important to allow other people to know how to expect to support it.
It may not matter to the Naive New User That Is Trying It Out, but it sure would be useful for me to know such details if that Naive New User happens to come to me for help.
This may not be in their interests if they planned to provide paid support contracts, but that's not consistent with the ``Best Effort Support'' that the site indicates that they intend to offer...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.