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Good-Bye Nino; Hello from Handspring
arban writes "According to this article on CNET, Philips is discontinuing the Nino, their WinCE base machine. " Phillips is citing lack of sales and consumer response to WinCE machine. On the other side of the coin, Handspring has begun taking orders from their new Palm-OS handheld. Nice and cheap.
There are a handful of applications that offer syncronization between serial PalmOS devices (Visor will need the serial cradle). There's a buggy K app called KPilot. I believe GNOME also has an incomplete counterpart (of course). However, one of the BETTER Linux-Palm Desktop tools is JPilot. It has a built-in Datebook, To-Do List, MemoPad, and Address Book; all very similar to the Windows Palm Desktop suite. While not necessarily as sophisticated in it's syncing technique (basically copies the entire Pilot databases right off the Plot, rather than updates each database by individual records), it's very reliable, easy to use, and (here's the important part) complete to the point that you can use it on a daily basis. You'll need to install the Pilot-Link tools beforehand, but it's worth it!
Check it out here: http://jpilot.linuxbox.com
The Palm IIIe/se is _not_ flash upgradeable, and I found this out thirty one days after buying it from a store with a thiry-day return policy :) Guess it's my own stupid fault for being an impulsive buyer, but 3.3 isn't that groundbreaking anyways. Faster Hotsync - yawn. If they'd come out with a USB cradle I'd be much, much happier. Downloading 1.5 megs of Avantgo everyday over a 115kbps serial link isn't fun, especially when pages start to timeout.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Admittedly, $AU800 for a Palm V is a little expensive, but I was sold on it because of a few little utilities I found on PalmGear:
The Palm is supposed to be a data logger, with the processing being done on the desktop. There's no competition between Palm and Windows (besides, I use a Mac on my desktop).
I looked at WinCE once and the interface was so familiar, I was waiting for the BSOD (or h ere). Microsoft's biggest mistake with WinCE was underestimating the emotional decision that a user makes based on previous experience with products that have the same interface (ie: Windows 95/98/NT).
That, and the fact that a Palm III can run for weeks on one set of AAA batteries. A WinCE machine runs for maybe 6 hours. However, I got the Palm V with the rechargable Lithium-Ion battery (more dollars than sense). Besides, it looks sexy
I see one of the biggest problems of Windows CE as being the damned GUI, which tends to be the problem with most versions of Windows. The Win32 API works marginally well on a low res desktop (remember Win95 at 640x480 resolution?) but on a screen that's much much smaller than your 13.1" monitor is just assanine. The PalmOS is a pretty much "perfect" operating system for palmtop computing, it's super easy to use, great interface on a small screen, and stable. There was an OS before Palm that did that, NewtonOS. I unfortunately was never able to get a Newton even though I really wanted one but I did have the opertunity to use one. If Apple brought the Newton back at a comparable price to the Visor or Palm I'd seriously consider one. If any palmtop designers are reading this, here is what I'd like to see in a palmtop:
1. Easy access expansion slot (preferably a type 2 PC card slot) that can hold anything from flash memory to microdrives.
2. A cradle that uses USB to recharge the batteries and synch it to my desktop or laptop. Not to mention an IrDA port on the corner of the device for use with my Powerbook's IrDA port (the corner so it has wider visibility).
3. A really long battery life, somewhere in the range of weeks (one would be fine). I don't want a colour screen and have third party device manufacturers put little lithium ion batteries in their stuff so my handheld's batteries arent taxed to heck. Enforce a voltage limit of 3.3 and make your device run on 1.1v.
4. Access to the sub-etha net and "Don't Panic" written plainly on the outside. Maybe include travel information for most of the galaxy.
5. Team up with Victorinox to create a Swiss Army Palmtop complete with scissors, fish scaler, and modem.
6. Wireless access given to me in the same fashion as text pager messages (think XML). I dont need cell phone capabilities but I would like be able to hand surf a handfull (pun intended) of web pages parsed to my viewing ability.
I'm done.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
The Windows interface might be great on a desktop (though personally I hate it) but it is way to complex for a PDA. Compare it to the simple, effective, consistant EPOC to see what I mean.
You might not be able to click the OK button offscreen, but you can use the cursors or ESC. I've "driven blindly" when repairing many hosed NT machines.. sigh..
cpeterso
The reason WinCE is failing, and will fail is simple. Unlike Palm, which got a clue a long time ago, people don't want a replacement for their desktop machine. It's ridiculous to try. On the other hand, my Pilot stores the important stuff I need between visits to my PC. The Pilot is small, light and does what it needs fast. WinCE, on the other hand seems to run on grossly oversized handhelds (the Nino is just massive) and the Windows interface just doesn't work well in a small setup, not to mention the complete lack of applications, which is weird since for some stuff it's just a question of selecting a build target in Visual Studio.... but I digress...
The Palm is open, it's efficient, and it works. It's PDA. WinCE is just a tiny, crappy computer.
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
It's notable that although all of the Palms since the Palm III have been flash upgradable, not a single flash upgrade has ever been released.
The 3.3 OS is supposed to be a flash upgrade, but it seems that it will only work on IIIx'es and later. Its main advantage appears to be faster hotsyncing, something which the Visor already provides (thanks to the USB).
So although lack of flash upgradability IS a negative, I don't see it as mattering that much -- in the light of past experience.
-Billy
Yes, the battery is the achilles heel of WinCE devices. I didn't really do any serious measurements on the E100, but with its very bright active matrix screen, it goes through its LI ion battery pack pretty fast. I used it up in two weeks of occaisional use,and if you were on it constantly, I suspect you'd only have a couple of days.
On the OTHER hand, the E100 _charges_ when its in its cradle. Thus, if you return it to its cradle for a few hours every week or so, you'd never run out of batteries. So, unless you are a field scientist out in the bush, you'll probably _never_ give battery life any thought at all.
Putting the Pilot in its cradle, however, seems to cause it to eat batteries; not very fast, but significantly faster than if it is disconnected. If the pilot had a battery pack and charging system like the E100, you would never, ever have to think about batteries, even if you were to disconnect for a month or more. This is the way things should be. Changing the batteries on a PDA should be like changing them on a watch -- something you do every couple of years.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
>More RAM? yeah, you need it because
>Win CE is such a hog. Color? who cares?
>It's not a laptop! Win32? why does that
>matter? So I can run MS office in my palmtop?
Well, of course you don't need color for your address book or to do list, but color is essential many kinds of applications. For example, it is _very_ helpful in mapping applications, because you can increase the information density of the display (very important on a PDA). I can also imagine a real estate agent or other salesman putting a hundred or so images of his current inventory on a compact flash card. Color isn't always just eye candy. (I wonder what the Apple's hideous Quicktime Player would look like running on a Cass E100 -- Simulated chrome inside real chrome, virtual thumbwheels next to real ones... **shudder**)
Win32 makes it easier for developers with experience in Win 9X/NT to develop native applications for WinCE. Having office on WinCE means you can read document attachments to e-mails. Sure, all right thinking people develop in GCC on a free OS, and refuse to read attachments that aren't plain ascii or XML, but it still makes life easier for the great unwashed.
The combination of these means you have to sacrifice some (currently fairly cheap) RAM to the OS, but it would be a mistake to call this "bloat" -- you get something in return. Generally, response feels quite snappy on WinCE, as opposed to the NT or Win9x experience of being mired in some kind of transparent goo. WinCE generlly is probably the best OS in Microsoft's current lineup.
>People haven't bought into Win CE
>because it's a plain dumb idea born
>of Microsoft's need to expand into
>new markets. Palm OS outsells all
>Win CE computers combined by a large
>margin for a reason. It does exactly
>what it needs to do for a palm computer.
PalmOS succeeded where Newton failed because of its form factor was appropriate to the application space they were selling in, whereas the Newton's was not. However, the Newton would have been terrific in vertical market spaces like specialized data entry terminals and controllers (we were developing for the Newton -- burned by Apple AGAIN, curse it!). Flogging the Newton as a PDA seemed almost obstinately stupid, because clearly the device was too big, couldn' really get too much smaller. If anything they should have gone with a flat slate; imagine the size of a VAIO but half the thickness or weight.
The PalmOS interface works on a smaller screen than WinCE, and therefore Palm based devices will always be more sleek than WinCE device. However, until PalmOS acquires some of the features that WinCE has, you won't be able to do many applications.
>In short,
>it doesn't try to be a little laptop
>computer. Win CE fails as a palmtop
>and as a laptop.
Having used Win CE but settled on PalmOS, I can't call WinCE a failure as a palmtop; more accurately, I'd say its less convenient as a PDA, more flexible as a palmtop.
>And since when did MS not marketing Win 98?
I thought that they were unusually muted, though; perhaps they were affraid of being embarassed about charging money for something that amounts to a service pack.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
This only shows there is a definite user base that isn't being tapped here. If Phillips is smart, they would back the project, and let Nino users know they have an alternative to CE.
LinuxCE can be found at http://www.linuxce.org
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
People need an unstable palmtop like they need an unstable desktop. Enough said.
Good is never enough, when you dream of being great!
The Philips Velo, American model, is still IMO the best palmtop PC around, and it was released in 1997. Why? It has a softmodem - 4 hours of e-mail/IE 2.0 level net surfing at 19.2k. I was travelling around the US for a month and it was ideal for keeping in touch with people. AFAIK no other palmtop has this feature, even now (but I haven't been paying too much attention...)
:-)
Stupidly, they made the European version with a mobile phone interface - slower and far more expensive to set up and use. I count myself very lucky I have an American model. But with marketing decisions like that, no wonder it got discontinued as quickly as the article says.
On the downside, of course, it's my fifth one, due to them never getting the hinges designed right - but you can't fault their nice returns department
Gerv
Was the Nino a PC or an Organizer? It was designed and marketed to be both, and there are better examples of both of these things. Compare to the Pilot, which has no pretense of doing everything that a PC does, and has sold more than all its CE Palmtop competitors. It's the Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none principle.
Do I really need a built-in modem? A voice recorder? 8MB of memory? Not for my organizer, I don't. In fact, I would probably be less productive if I was always fiddling with those things (I didn't say they weren't fun to fool with).
Since I bought my Pilot in 1997, I know about 8 people who bought one partially or completely based on the fact that they saw the one I had. I have not seen the same thing with the CE Palmtops. Those machines seem overwhelming the the average person. Any idiot can use a Pilot, just like any idiot can use a phone.
Take a bloated, mutated, and counter-intuitive desktop operating system. Remove most of its functionality. Squeeze it into a smaller display than it was ever intended for. It's fun for a while, but ultimately unrewarding.
PalmOS Desgined from the ground up to work in a small display. You can pull it out of your pocket and get to the data in an isntant. No fuss, no mess. You wouldn't want to enter serious amounts of text in it, but it's a very practical solution for the needs of the average business person. It's massively popular.
Epoc32 A clean and elegently designed system from a company who've been building PDAs longer than anyone. Designed from day one for mobile use - but aimed at people who really need a keyboard, either because they need to process documents on the run, or because they are geeks and like being able to telnet into their linux boxes from half way up a mountain - which is when the excellent cellphone integration comes in handy. Also let's companies easily develop custom apps in OPL for, say, insurance salesmen to use on the move. Massively popular in it's niche market.
There's a pattern here, I think:
Designed to a PDA environment - people love it.
Designed from a desktop environment - complete flop.
Still,I was thinking about buying one, but 2 technical details made me change my mind:
It comes with a USB connection, gotta pay $20 more for serial. What if I dont't want USB, or my 'puter doesn't have USB? Serial does the job perfectly, and for the amount of data a normal user will have to up/download the speed difference shouldn't be a big problem. I just want the choice in there, not being forced to basically buy something I don't need.
You can't upgrade the OS since there's no Flash memory. Sounds like one of the reasons the Visor is a lot cheaper than 3Com's Palm III series (althought the IIIe is locked too, but it's only for US market, so I don't care).
I'd rather pay a bit more for a Palm IIIx or even a V (looks too good), and be sure I can upgrade the OS whenever there's an upgrade, feature that garantees my gadget won't be totally obsolete after 1 or 2 years. Heck, with the OS in a Flash ROM it's even possible to change the OS to something else than PalmOS (which is excellent, btw). LinCE anybody?
For now, I think I'll just enjoy the new prices for the Palm series...
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
I personally shoulder much of the blame for this on Windows CE. I've had a Casio A-20 for over a year now and I don't ever use it for the simple fact that it's not worth it. I ALWAYS use my Palm Pilot Professional because it's fast, functional, and works.
There is NO REASON a handheld PC should give you an hourglass when "opening" your contacts app, NO REASON. Then add the same problems that Win 9x/NT has like constant reboots and lockups/crashes and that seals Windows CE's fate in my opinion.
This is the reason I have not purchased a new CE unit and most likely will not.
a great place for cheap laptops that i know of is outletzoo.com (under pczoo --> notebooks) the only thing is they are mostly 'refurbished' back into 'same as new' condition. i recently ordered a PII 366 64M w/DVD MicronTrek2, etc. and dual booted it w/ RH 6.0. It runs perfectly fine so far, except the perplexing PPP configuration problems that forces me to keep using the EVILBILL partition to go online so far... :>?
prices are $300 and up^
cheers,
bobbaq@ya'wh0?
I think people didn't buy it because even Microsoft didn't seem to care. I remember reading some tepid-at-best pronouncements which seemed to be designed to convince you to skip 98 and go straight to Windows2000.
The reviews were terrible, too.
D
----
What bugs me about all this blessed praise for Handspring's Razor is how off-base the product (and its overpriced Big Daddy) is. While it's less overpriced, it's still incredibly cumbersome to use, and more importantly, it doesn't give universal wireless email access (unless your universe is New York).
Matter of fact, I recently spent a day messing with RIM's new Blackberry device and ended up feeling downright disgusted with Palm/Spring. Specifically, I loved that Blackberry a) had keyboard entry; b) a perfect form factor; and c) and ubiquitous, wireless email.
It was insanely addictive, like the early days of cell phones when it was fun to call someone from the car (or the roller blades) Just Because You Could, it is totally cool to send emails from the neighbor's couch, Just Because You Can.
At the same time, as Mark Anderson points out in a recent column, any device that has united Michael Dell, Steve Ballmer and Paul Allen has got big buzz. After all, Allen just paid $1.65B for RCN which is getting ready to roll out Blackberry service.
P.
http://www.groksoup.com
I'm happy with my SPARCBook3. Cost me $230 shipping included, a bloody sight less than most PDAs.
Sure it's a bit heavy (gotta love that magnesium case). But it runs real OSs (Solaris 2.5/6/7, NetBSD, Linux). It's got great features (builtin sound, ethernet, 2 modems, ISDN ). And it meets my criterion: since it runs a perfectly stable OS (Sol 2.5.1), I can just suspend it and resume it in about 30 seconds each. So I can arrive somewhere and be hacking without waiting for boot. Granted the battery life isn't amazing, just enough for a 90 minute lecture, though newer laptops are much better for that.
It can dhcp in any lecture hall with netbars, and if I wasn't too cheap to spring for wireless it could do that too i think (might need a newer Solaris version).
I spend my class and between class time this morning half listning to lectures, half hacking madly at Verilog. It was a great productivity boost considering my ECE lab tonight. I also use it to take notes that are actually readable for once -- definitely worth the flexibility tradoff verses pen & paper.
Spend an equivalent amount of money on a PDA that's smaller but can only take a few terse notes and keep my appointments? Forget it.
important note: the handspring doesnot put the palmos in flash memory, like all other palms. the handspring uses palmos hardcoded into rom. result? you cannot upgrade to a newere palmos. a pretty big downside, imo.
:) these things just look cool. plus, accessorizing is in. hehe. anyways, for how cheap they, how compatible they are, how cool they look, they can't be beat. but, you'll be stuck with the os that it comes with unless you're a decent hardware hacker.
however, that won't stop me from getting one!
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!