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After Toshiba's settlement, Others Follow (Law)suit
Can Savas writes "After Toshiba's $2.1 Billion settlement of the lawsuit
on the "probably" faulty floppy controller, others have
filed lawsuits against Compaq,
HP, Packard Bell/NEC and eMachines. I wonder where these
lawsuits are heading but I guess some will strike it rich (having
suffered nothing at all to boot). These lawsuits show how
unsufficient the jury system is for cases like this where the
jury is likely to be clueless. If any of these manufacturers end
up settling or losing the suit, then there might be some real
problems for the entire industry. "
They were talking about this lawsuit on NPR last night. They said that the defect was discovered over 10 years ago by an IBM researcher. If they have knowingly been using defective parts for that long, then they should be held liable. Lots of people (including me sometimes) use their floppy drive to backup their work. If my machine crashes and I lose the file from my hard disk, I would not be very happy to find my backup was useless. -ec
I feel the jurors are probably fine for criminal cases where they are clueless only about the case. But when you say this guy stole this or hurt someone with a knife they know exactly what you mean. They have known for years what's right and wrong. But they might not know anything about computers. When someone says the floppy controller was faulty and the data could become corrupt they might think it might cause the end of the world, or wreak some serious havoc. At worst it will just create another coaster. Can Savas (just created an account)
>>and it [trial by jury, american court system] 's a damn lot better than most other countries out there.
Can you substantiate that claim? and I do mean most, not just some that are known to have problems. Yes, it's not the worst system.. but better than most? I'm not so sure... IMO a jury system is too sensitive to emotion, rather than rational interpretation of the law.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
If you read the article again you'll find that the problems in the Toshiba notebooks were caused by a faulty third-party microcontroller. If Toshiba can be forced to pay $2 billion for a faulty NEC microcontroller, why is Microsoft somehow exempt from problems caused by faulty third party OEM drivers?
I am not supporting additional litigation. I agree that the lawsuit against Toshiba and NEC is undeserved. However, I am taking the opportunity to point out that if we must live in such a litigious society, Microsoft should be in at least as much hot water as Toshiba.
Posted by cookieman.k:
YO! Justice in the US = crapy of options ? Disclamer:
I don't think any other country in the world puts up with such a horrible amount of silly lawsuits. So why does America?
After this lawsuit, now maybe you PC Slashdot whiners will understand why Apple ditched the floppy drive on the iMac!
Toshiba chose to circumvent the legal system by settling. Can't pin that one on America.
Toshiba also knew about the defect in its product. Didn't do anything about it.
The world is not a perfect place. It never was. It never will be. Mistakes are made, but life goes on. Live with it.
Your claim that America has not realized the imperfection of the world seems bitter. Is it because Americans do something about it, rather than just live with it?
I'm pretty sure it was Ben Franklin who made a big deal about education at the start of this country. His position was that democracy and trial-by-jury only work when the populace is properly educated.
Obviously, a lot of people aren't learning the things they really need to.
You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
Now, when asked about this, they respond with a settlement that could reach $2 Billion, BUT:
You have to prove ownership of the laptop (receipt) I would imagine,
You have to apply for the payment,
You can only use half the award towards purchase of Toshiba Laptops/accessories.
I own two Librettos, bought new in the last 18 months, so I would expect to get 2x$200 for each laptop, plus minimum 2x$200 coupons toward accessories/laptops. (I paid $600 for the L50 a year ago!) When I heard of this "award," my reaction was to look for a good deal on a Toshiba laptop before they announce the settlement, hoping to get an additional $200+$200 award, and I came across a great deal - a Tecra 8000 w/PII 266 Mhz, 64 Meg RAM, 6.4Gig HD, 13.3" 1024x768 TFT, CD-ROM and 56K modem for $1250. Take $400 or so off that price, and that is one great deal!
My advice: Think real hard about buying a Toshiba laptop *before* they announce the settlement is accepted. The original report said that all laptops sold after 11/10/99 will not have the problem - does this take into account all the TOshiba laptops sitting in distributors/retailers shelves right now?
Interesting...
These chips have a multitude of bugs (quote from /usr/src/linux/drivers/block/cmd640.c - "these chips are basically f*cked by design") all of which could cause serious data loss. I even complained to my motherboard manufacturer who asked what video card I had (S3 864) and dismissed my complaint saying that all PC hardware around including that specific chip has serious bugs...
Then there's the UltraSparc bug that causes problems if you run it in 64-bit mode...
I can't say I've stopped worrying, but I don't see there's much that can be done to fix the situation... :(
Isn't a jury supposed to be made up of "peers". But WHOSE peers? The plaintiff's or the defendent's? In most cases the peers of these two groups are identical. But in a case like this, clearly at least 50% of the jury should be people with technical expertise, computer engineers, etc.
Right? Is there a lawyer in the house?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
As I see it, the idea of trial by jury isn't bad, but in practice it cannot work. Often what is needed is knowledge of the implications of a court ruling, something that cannot be expected from everyone.
This CAN be expected from professionals though...
that's why I am not in favour of a jury in court.
Since I have no idea what a trough of truth is, I cannot comment on it.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
will the companies realize that it's probably better for the industry to fight these law suits and (hopefully) win instead of settling out of court? sure, it's easier to settle, but i think the industry needs to show that nonsense like this won't be tolerated. this is absolutely ridiculous.
--
you must amputate to email me
i read all replies to my comments
now that is want i like to see :)
I swear, people these days are just way to quick to sue. I hope they get sued by some one else in return, for using faulty drives. suckaz
We could have "sue microsoft day"
Can the Times sue the NYT over the models eggs story?
Can I sue my boss for missing a deadline?
Hohum - I could... but I wont... because I have more exciting things to do in life.
It isn't all about an easy buck - there are more things to life than that. Believe it or not.
I *sigh* at the world sometimes.
Jury selection isn't likely to change anytime soon, and I don't think it should -- the idea is sound. What I don't understand is how the Toshiba case (and many others) ever became so inflated. $2 Billion. Seriously, I don't have all the facts, but could their floppy-problem have actually caused that much loss?
Thoughts anyone?
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Computer manufacturers offer warranties on their products just like any other company that makes a product. When the part is defective, they issue a recall. Some, like Dell with the Western Digital issue are proactive and call their customers to let them know when the technician will be coming out to replace the drive. Others try to bury it under the rug. Neither really deserves sued. That's why we have places like the Better Business Bureau. You report a company for slow response, write letters to the CEO, call and complain because the product ise not working as designed, and I can't believe you wouldn't recieve service. I'd prefer to work with and buy products from a proactive company, but I sure can't see myself involved in a class action lawsuit against a pretty reputable company unless I wanted to damage them. I'd take care of the issue myself and maybe even take them to small claims court where the issue belongs. At least that way I would get full compensation.
That's all the rambling. If there's anything good in what I just said it's your responsibility to pick it out.
One or more of these hardware makers is going to turn there attention toward sueing micros~1 for there poor product quality in the past.
I for one look forward to the day when micros~1 is held liable for the billions they cost buisness across america in lost productivity.
These suits won't get anywhere. Toshiba had no guts and settled quickly, but evidence of a settlement is not admissible in court so the remaining computer manufacturers will be free to pull the same procedural dirty tricks to save themselves just like W.R. Grace did in "A Civil Action" without the jury having knowledge taht Toshiba whimped out. Damages in civil court have to be proven by a "preponderance of the evidence" and be at least roughly measurable. If they can't prove they lost data, then they will get nominal ($1.00) damages just to prove they are right. Future damages would be undercut with a downloaded patch. Just some commentary from a geek law student.....
It is truly amazing how ignorant outsides can be.
I Agree!
Lawyers are now seeing a pot of gold in the technology industry. Class Action Lawsuits and Obvious Patents seem to be the way to go. As you summarized it perfectly, it's akin to plain and simple EXTORTION.
The Y2K "Windowing" patent is plain EXTORTION. This bug in the floppy drive is EXTORTION. How many times have I lost data on computers, multiple times! The reason may have been a faulty floppy, a hard drive crash, an operating system crash, improper ventillation for the CPU, bad device drivers, a video card on the fits, poorly connected peripheral cards, etc. To be awarded over $2 billion for a faulty problem exposes almost every technology company to legal exposure. The Doctor's today have to may outrageous insurance fees for legal protection just to be able to practice, will we end up doing the same? This has got to stop!
I have here a Toshiba Satellite 315CDS. New, it cost my wife somewhere around $2000. With the settlement, we're entitled to somewhere around $200-400 and around a $200 coupon for toshiba products. That's around 20% of the purchase price, at least.
What this country needs is a healthy dose of tort reform. Anything (well, almost) that gets people out of the business of suing other people and into something productive can only be good for the nation. (That especially includes legal maneuvering over ridiculously obvious patents... but that's another thread.)
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Man! I predicted lawsuits against japanese companies after the original story ran - just didn't realize how quickly lawyers move in when they smell the chum of large settlements.
BTW - unlikely to see a lawsuit against M$ - these lawyers aren't interested in trials - these guys want the THREAT of a trial (and the bad PR associated with it) to shake down large companies into paying cash booty. This works well against japanese companies that are not tuned in to the lawsuit culture. M$ is famous for aggressively fighting - can't shake them down. Lawsuit-virgin Japanese firms tho are easy game in comparison.
-- If the blues don't kill you, brother, they'll make you a mighty, might man.
- John Hamilton, Pursuit Ballistics
The Pjammer Chronicles --
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
John Dvorak wrote an article around 1989 lambasting the computer industry for the complete and total lack of quality that 5.25" floppies possessed. They were slow, they were loud, and most disturbingly, they lost data with ridiculous ease. (Somebody find me a link to this article. I need it for my files.)
Ten years later, we're using 3.5" disks, and we're in the same situation.
Steve Jobs and the iMac development team had a chance to fix the situation. They recognized that floppies were garbage. They knew they weren't stable by any means. In response...they chose nothing.
Thanks, Steve.
So, floppy disks persist as the one and only truly standard way for moving documents and small files from one machine to another, and maybe even storing them off a hard drive for some period of time. Most of us who build our own computers know--buy Teac, or you might as well throw away your data. Most of us who build our own computers do so because ten more dollars for a part that can be trusted is worth it for us, but for a large scale company churning out thousands of boxes, ten more dollars per unit is suicide if you can get away with using it to pad the bottom line.
This is one of those "diseconomies of scale" when it comes to large computer companies--saving pennies on a box to remove a feature that everybody expects but only 1% know to check for(like supporting more than 32MB RAM on a certain motherboard, Compaq)--that keep the little guys in business.
Anyway, I must say I'm not entirely displeased with the tremendous pain about to be inflicted on those who have been knowingly distributing fatally flawed 3.5" disk technology in an effort to save money. I spent two years as a volunteer tech at my university--the amount of raw labor I saw go down the drain because of floppies gone terribly wrong was shocking, as was the amount of disks that simply couldn't handle a Linux boot disk. Imagining large corporations going through the same kind of pain I've watched a relatively small population of students go through is frightening, to say the least.
Of course, there will be some companies defending their negligence by saying the minimal quality standards were "common industry practice". So too were the falsified 15"/17" monitor statistics that lead to the "Viewable Size in Every Advertisement" agreement. Lets not even begin to mention the coming slap down of the entire 56K modem industry, which was all too happy to claim speeds twice as fast when even in the most generous contexts it wasn't the case. And, of course, sooner or later, Inkjet Printer manufacturers will get their due--8 pages a minute? Yeah, if you're printing a period.
But what's critical is that while faking monitor sizes only strained a few eyeballs, and slow modems and printers maybe caused a missed deadline or two, substandard(hell, plain old standard) floppy drives caused data loss that directly led to wasted employee hours and lost property.
I can't have too much mercy here. I've done the recoveries, I've gotten the pleading phone calls, I've thanked Word's Autorecovery feature innumerable times(and cursed Windows' awkwardness at saving to hard drive and making only a copy for the floppy).
It may have taken a very long while for the industry to be taken to task on this, but hopefully we'll finally see a stable portable media standard arise from the legal ashes.
About time.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
If you are that much knowledgeable please enlighten me, holder of great intellect.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
FIRST POST!!!
second first post!?!?!
This would lead to an extreme case of attorney arms races, and would NOT benefit the system.
- The settlement of the Toshiba suit, and the copycat suits against Compaq, HP et al.
- The patent on "date windowing" and the legal action over it.
- The growing political awareness and clout of tech companies in Washington.
The tech sector of the economy may be the only force in America which has more money to throw around than the trial lawyers. With the ATLA putting its sights on Silicon Valley, this is going to come down to war. The ATLA has been playing the legislation game far longer than the tech sector, but money is a great leveller. When this shakes out, we may actually have two things which are near and dear to all our hearts:- Tort liability reform, where the "lottery" aspect is dealt with, and
- Patent reform, which puts more emphasis on genuine novelty and cuts the term of protection down to something sensible for the industry (or imposes mandatory licensing).
Unfortunately, getting there means that the tech sector has to speak with one voice. That's going to be awfully hard for this fractions, contentious, individualistic bunch to do... but it's very important if we're to have a future!--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
this is all well and good but they are giving away coupons for more toshiba products NOT cash refunds...this is a large CROCK of shit, the only one's making anything are the SLEEZY LEECH-LIKE lawyers...Why would i want to buy more toshiba crap if the problem exists and if it affects no one then kill the two lawyers and lets move on..I'll donate 20$ for the hitman fund :) Better yet I'll give my refund coupon to anyone who can bring me a lwayer head :) :)
I think Robert Heinlen(sp) had the right idea in his timelines
To me it would seem obvious that the jury system is based on the premise that most people are capable of acting as jurors. Let's call this assumption A.
You describe the most people of today in rather unfathery manner, especially their capacity for logical thinking. To make my arguments simpler, let's pretend that I agree with you on this (and I honestly do agree with much of it). However, I would also contend that person fitting that description would be unfit to be a juror. Let's call these assumption B (the description) and conclusion C (unfit jurors).
You start off by stating that jury system per se isn't fundamentally flawed. (Assuming that "problem is not" approximately equals "isn't flawed"). I am puzzled by this. To me A, B and C together bring about the conclusion (D) that jury system can't work.
There are few possibilities that might explain this. You could disagree with A, although that would be rather far out. B is your own words. The leap from B to C is probably questionable, but if you allow C then D is pretty obvious. So I think that either you:
a) disagree with C (Meaning that people don't have to be able to think logically to be able jurors.)
b) just didn't think it thru.
--Flam, who also thinks some people shouldn't be able to vote on account of stupidity
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers - Pablo Picasso
I wonder where these lawsuits are heading but I guess some will strike it rich (having suffered nothing at all to boot). These lawsuits show how unsufficient the jury system is for cases like this where the jury is likely to be clueless. If any of these manufacturers end up settling or losing the suit, then there might be some real problems for the entire industry.
Hmm. This guy isn't satisifed with submitting the story, he also has to offer us his wise prognostications on the deficiencies of the tort system as well. You know what? I'm not buying it.
Big business is always trying to scare us about the evils of seedy trial lawyers and stupid, uninformed jurors. You know what I'm more worried about? Big business cutting corners to make a buck at the expense of the product. They've been doing it for years. Now that it's catching up to them they want to start crying. Too bad. If they had been doing the right thing way back when, they wouldn't be in this position now.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Accountability is a frightening thing for some people, and for some grades of software. Do you think the contributors to the Linux kernel look forward to being sued? If they do their coding at the workplace, their employers could end up being dragged into the lawsuit. Possibly for not supervising them and keeping them from writing buggy crap software. I imagine there are already lawyers putting significant amounts of time into gathering up the lists of contributors to Open Source(tm) software, and getting the lists together of people to sue. How much money does the FSF have in their legal defense fund?
Yep.
And since voters are often not qualified to choose who is elected ("Ruth is voting for Skip Humphrey because he has a face she says she can trust. I am voting for Jesse "The Body" Ventura because it's cool that a wrestler is running for governor!@"), we need a panel of experts to elect our officials.
And the operating system your computer runs will be determined by your friendly Neighborhood Committee. Are you a MSCE? If not, don't even dream that your input is wanted by those making the decision for you. Just thank them and be available on Thursday when the neighborhood technician comes by to format your drive and install the OS that experts have decided you should run.
What it means is unclear. What it signifies is a squeaky-voiced boy (witness- the sterling performance of these kids in the "Nerds in Space" programs) whose journalistic qualifications are that he can write perl. Badly.
NEC shipped Versa laptops with defective motherboards from about 1995 to 1998. They've quietly admitted to the problem, but have not issued any general recall or settlement. Some larger customers got discounts on new equipment, but people had to go through warranty service, where they replaced one defective motherboard with another defective motherboard. I've even been told that power management is "unsupported" on these machines - all of which are supposedly Windows logo certified, which at the very least should mean that APM works.
This is not an isolated example -- there's been millions of fundamentally defective systems dumped on the public over the years. Furthermore, there's very little government protection in this area, mostly because the PC parts market is made up a large number of obscure and offshore companies. Most users rarely expand their memory or run an intensive operating system which might uncover hardware stability or data loss problems, or if they do, they are content to just blame Microsoft Windows. (I see people on Slashdot doing this all of the time. "NT Sucks - I keep getting memory parity errors!")
Toshiba should be given credit for rectifying a minor problem with what have been generally good machines. I'd like to see this huge settlement bring the sharks out of the water -- it might get these clowns to clean up their act and stop peddling defective merchendise.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I can't believe the number of posts calling this rediculous... Toshiba acknowledged that they had knowingly sold faulty equipment to their consumers. How would you like it if you lay in a hospital and your life support system failed due to a known software bug? I figure you'd be pretty dead, and pretty pissed too! Well, how many people do you know save their documents on floppies? Sure, there's such things as tape drives and ZIP disks, but I know TONS of people that are still backing up on floppy (for whatever reason, I don't know). How would you like it if you were writing the next Great American Novel and had your docs stored on a floppy that was then destroyed by a faulty controller? Probably rather pissed. Companies that produce products that fail to perform as advertised or specified should be held liable. Do you realize that most SOFTWARE LICENSES prevent you from suing the software company for anything more than the price of the software if they wrote buggy code???? This isn't just a "M$" practice, it's practically universal in the software industry. People have to be responsible for what they do. Period. Sam Wilson
The worst possible situation for a jury trial would be to have a jury of people who considered themselves experts. The general population isn't stupid. They can figure out what a floppy controller does if somebody bothers to tell them. And most importantly, they can look at the case without biases. Imagine if you had a jury of slashdot readers on the jury in a lawsuit against MS. They'd be standing up screaming Guilty! before the trial even started.
Let's just hope that such systems become more pervasive in the next millennium and filter through to the hardware companies as well.
I can see it now. Pot-bellied old hippies and Jr. High School students fileing away at the rough edges of cast aluminum floppy drive chassis frames, applying the latest "patch" they downloaded from a Usenet newsgroup on floppy drive designs.
The BIOS newsgroup flooded with cries for help (posted from Internet Cafe terminals) from users who've re-flashed their motherboard with the latest "Open Sores(tm)" BIOS image which only produces speaker beeps now.
People flaming one another about which replacement firmware is most politically correct to flash their hard drive with.
USB devices infected with the Gnu Public Virus, which take over any machine they are plugged into. A bitmap of a rotund Richard Stallman appears on the display, captioned "I 0wn Yew Na0, sukkah!"
I don't think any other country in the world puts up with such a horrible amount of silly lawsuits
America puts up with them because America is run by lawyers - and lawyers encourage litigation because they make money at it (doesn't matter who wins or loses, the lawyers make money.)
Combine this with the attitude (encouraged by lawyers) that individuals shouldn't be responsible for their own actions, and you've got a nice environment for this kind of thing.
I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. If you need some, see a laywer licensed in your jurisdiction.
The original idea of a jury was that the king's judges would have their bailiffs round up the men of the town as a jury, since they're the ones that knew what happened (a disqualification today).
Rather than a jury of twelve random people, there are many cases where we'd be better off with, say, three people who know the subject matter, or a group with one of each kind of special knowledge needed--an engineer, a programmer, etc.
We already have "special verdicts" rather than "general verdicts" as a possiblity--rather than yes/no and a number, the jury issues findings point by point, which can be assembled by the judge. The experts could also issue such findings.
And going back to a weregild concept on injuries might be a good idea--an arm is worth X dollars, a leg Y, a death Z, and so forth . . .
I'm not sure that's a 100% accurate statement. Jefferson had some interesting things to say on the matter. I can't remember the document offhand or I'd point you to it, but there is one where he weighs the problem of a basically uneducated populace (and they were at the time) having the vote against the tendency of a government to become tyrannical if the people don't have power over it. The way it was decided to handle this was to give the people the vote and institute our beloved (yes, that's supposed to be sarcastic) system of checks and balances; so while it can be nearly impossible to actually get anything done, it pretty much guarantees that someone with a clue will get a look at things before they go too far.
Keeping in mind that the main objective was to create a government that would survive, rather than one that is aesthetically pleasing or theoretically correct, and I'd have to say that they got it basically right. Not that it couldn't use some serious fine tuning...
The problem with your analogy is that consumers actually notice a bug, something obviously not right about the operation of your software. Then they can expect you to correct it. But noone discovered any actual issues in Toshiba's case. If they had then Toshiba would be responsible to change the controller, or replace the notebook whatever. And a car suddenly bursting into flames has more serious consequences than data corruption.
The problem is not so much with the concept, as with the execution. If jury members were required to have some knowledge of the issue at hand (all have to be EE's in Toshiba's case), and lawyers weren't allowed to be lawmakers (a conflict of interest like that would land you in jail in just about any other profession), a lot of these problems wouldn't exist.
You can't be certain whether layman jurors have hidden agendas either. That's why there are candidates for the jury and there's a screening. Professionals in the field would work as well as layman, and most probably much better.
The system you advocate would be unconstitutional, because it would violate the accused's right to a fair and impartial jury. Especially economicly disadvantaged people would suffer, because they above all others are least likely to be able to afford to miss work to serve on a jury.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
Buggy Microsoft software has certainly caused more loss of productivity in this nation than defective Toshiba floppy drives. Yet Microsoft is allowed to hide behind their EULA (which disclaims all warranties), while Toshiba is docked a billion dollars. Hardware companies have to offer a warranty to stay competitive. Why don't we demand the same from software companies?
The fact that Microsoft can get away with no warranty on its software is smoking-gun proof that consumers have no choice in the software market. With no warranty, Microsoft has no incentive to fix bugs in its software. It's about time that we realize the damage that buggy Microsoft software has caused, hold them accountable for their defective software, break up their monopoly, and give the consumers choice in the marketplace.
Hey guys, we're not talking about a company that shipped defective products. That's not the issue at all.
Anybody can ship defective products and not be sued at all: Anybody can fail.
The issue is that they damn well knew the problem, and as a matter of policy, shoved the crap down the throat of unknowing customers, thinking that it wouldn't be discovered it anyway.
And then it becomes one big, massive scam. Then, they haven't dealt in good faith any longer; on the contrary, they've massively misrepresented facts, subverted the truth, lied and cheated for ten years in a row.
Ok, Toshiba, how much money did you make by doing that?
That's the minimum you gonna pay in punitive damages.
You have a tact for BS. Your example seems to imply that real companies would choose to screw consumers and settle if they have to. How do you know that a company actually calculates how much they'd have to pay to settle? You don't because they can't calculate that. It depends on how many people actually jump on the lawsuit bandwagon and how much they ask for. A real company can't do business like that. And i bet $5 B (that's how much GM was sentenced to) is much greater than the cost of fixing the problem. Each year many cars get recalled, which should trash your analogy. Also when the previous generation Mercedes Benz S-Class was first introduced the wheels could break loose if you turned fast enough. I wish I had an early S-Class, now I could be a billionaire.
This suit is an example of opportunistic extortion by greedy lawyers at its worst. The bug has not been shown to have caused a single byte of data loss, EVER. (Most OSes verify writes to floppy disks by reading back what they wrote, and so would catch errors even if they did occur.) However, the suit may lead to a new trend: lawyers poring over the errata published by chip makers, looking for fodder for lawsuits. Which, in turn, could cause vendors such as Intel to quit publishing them. This could make computers and operating systems far less reliable, because programmers won't be ABLE to work around bugs. And the development of open source software will be hobbled, because chip makers won't agree to the publication of source code which shows workarounds for errata.
Let's hope that this next crop of defendants does not knuckle under, as Toshiba unwisely did.
--Brett Glass
Actually, it's 20% of the purchase price at most.
But carry on!
Imagine you are an e-commerce company with a web site that yields $10,000/hour in revenue. Now imagine that there is a problem in your RAID card that the MFGR new about, but sold the part to you anyway, assuring you of its reliability, that caused it to fail. Now you've got a web site that is crashed (and even with hot spares in place your site is gonna be down for at least 30 minutes while you diagnose and fix the problem... on a good day... that $5,000 in revenue), and the potential for corrupted data (no telling what the RAID controller did to your system BEFORE it completely crashed). Now you have to deal with bad press, pissed customers, and potentially your own liability due to corrupted transaction data. It could cost you MILLIONS.
And all your saying the MFGR should be liable for is the cost of the RAID card? BS.
Sam Wilson
I've always wondered if it was better to spend your money on more evil attorneys, when you find yourself a defendant or spend it on hit men for the plaintiff and his evil attorneys.
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
The American jury system was originally set up to allow only those that can vote to be jurors. However, the original requirment to vote was being a land owner, and that eliminated much of the population. We have since changed the requirements for voting, with the unintended result of lowering the bar for jury duty (I shan't go into what this has done to voting; that is grist for another day's mill)
I also believe you misinterpret what "A jury of your peers" means. For example, if I were a biker, and whacked some cager for touching my ride, would the fact that I am a biker entitle me to a jury of bikers? Of course not. The "jury of your peers" means that the jury is not to be some high-holy tribunal appointed by The Powers That Be.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I've been contemplating a restructuring of the jury system for sometime. The key points are this, -
You state- "most people today are incapable of - listening to facts, remembering facts, following a chain of logic, or going with the logical choice no matter what their personal feelings are"
However, 1)our legal system does not allow jurists to take notes or in anyway have recordings of the trial. 2)Most of the information presented is not 'factual', or at least certainly not objective 'truth', the presentations of both sides are highly skewed and biased. 3) The majority of legal arguements are specifically crafted for strong emotional content because of the length of trials and the ease with which 'fact' and 'logic' can be obfuscated. Whereas emotional content leaves a very deep and powerful impression.
Thus... here are my proposed solutions,
1) The court proceedings should be fully recorded on video- the witnesses, the judge, and the attorney's - yes I know there is a court recorder typing up every word spoken, however much of what we say is in body language, inflection, and tone. The jury should have full access to these recordings during there deliberation. This will likely minimize the impact of the tactics of confusion and emotional plea.
2) I would like to see a pool of 'Professional' jurors. Individuals who have sufficient knowledge about a jurys rights and powers, are at least moderately intelligent, and have decent reasoning ability's. While this may not be strictly a trial by one's peers, the current jury system certainly isn't. Jury selection is based on psychometrics of who will give the most likely verdict- usually chosen on there basis to be emotionally swayed and their predispostion to biases based on there ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds.
... as to your ideas of letting people to reschedule or opt out- I think that is an excellent idea.
Thanks,
LetterRip
(for those who would like to further discuss these ideas, I can be reached at - fstmm@yahoo.com)
How about a class-action suit against lawyers who file baseless class-action suits that waste the court's time and our tax dollars?
If it's true that Toshiba shipped a large number of laptops with defective parts then why is this so wrong?
I recall watching a movie years ago based upon a car company that knew it's cars would explode if hit "just right" while in an accident. The car company went to the bean counters who told them that it would cost X million dollars to do a recall and fix the problem while it was probable that it would only cost them X/2 million dollars to settle lawsuits for people injured or killed due to the defect. Guess which option the car manufacturer chose ?
It's true that getting a defective part in a laptop is not in the same as being killed due to a defective car part, but you get my point (I hope).
I agree that litigation is way out of hand, but companies need to be held accoutable. When power and money and greed become the driving force behind large corporations, or any business, they had better be prepared to deal with the results.
Actually, what's really amusing is the fact that you, youself just made an emotional judgement on the entire U.S. legal system based on 1 case out of millions. It's not clueless juries that are the problem, its the fact that people, that's all people including me, are suspetible to emotions and often make judgements based on them (wheter we know it or not).
Apart from the fact that you are extremely snappy, I feel that you are also delusionary. Even if you are so troubled by the fact that there are some large corporations and some rich people, fining them through malicious lawsuits is not the way to handle the issue. Consider the case of Iomega. Their zip and jaz drives are so flawed that they are expected to go bad and iomega replaces them promptly when the customer complains. So Iomega is not guilty because they replace the product, but Toshiba is because they didn't. People lost hours of work due to zip/jaz drives going bad. Nothing happened to Toshiba users. That's a very serious turn of events, companies get hurt when a case takes too long regardless of whether they win or lose. So some choose to settle even if they might win. And that will hurt every company out there.
I'm not trying to defeat large corporations here. Most of them do bad things. I can't defend sweatshops, etc. but not all are working to screw customers. Every product has flaws. If you think what you have is free from defects it's just that you can't see them. If the defects adversely affect the use or operation of the products then it should be fixed otherwise it's OK (really). For mission-critical things however (medical systems for example) the products have to be more carefully designed. And yes they are.
Also as the guy who submitted the story I should comment on your personal attack on me. I have a right to free speech as much as you do. No one has to accept my words as the gospel (they don't have to accept the gospel either for that matter). You are a bigot preaching rights when you don't have respect for the basic freedom of speech. In other words I think you are an extremist socialist-totalitarian freak.
Can Savas
Good point. The problem with so-called experts is that many of them are self-proclaimed, like most of the loudmouths that stink up this joint. Most slashdot people are fat, myopic gamers who sit on their ass all day slurping cheetos and jolt cola, yet these same nitwits are going to restructure our current legal system. Yeah right.
To all you dumb fucks on slashdot, go eat another devil dog, you fat inbred fucks.
Refusal to fix a problem in your shipping product after you are notified of it is just as bad as (and in fact equivalent to) shipping a product that you know is defective.
On the hardware side, if you read the article you'll find that a ton of companies who used the defective NEC chipset are being sued. The article says that even though NEC fixed their microcode when they discovered the problem, they are still being sued for unknowingly shipping a defective product before it was corrected.
Your post only serves to highlight the staggering double standard faced by hardware and software companies. A software company is not even required to fix bugs after being informed of them, while a hardware company can be sued even if they corrected a bug as soon as they found it.
What disturbs me is that you are a cocksucker. But hey, that's on you.
While I think the actual ruling of the lawsuit seems unfair, I think this is all some kind of karmic justice for Toshiba. Does anyone remember in the late 1980s when Toshiba sold state-of-the-art American submarine secrets to the Soviets? I think Toshiba got off very lightly for one reason or another. Anyways, perhaps this is karma coming back to say hi. Does anyone have any URLs for this Toshiba submarine scandal, or know of any details?
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
I develop custom solutions, hardware and software. When our customers find anything wrong with our products, they hold us responsible. Some little bug in the software? They expect us to put right straight away. If your car spontaneously bursts into flames while in the garage, burning down half the house in the process, and you discover that this is a common fault with your model due too design default, you would sue! Many people and organisations are now dependent on information technology, it is not a gadget. We have the features we need, what the industry needs is quality responsibility and reliability. Hopefully such lawsuits will change the industry, making it increase sales by offering ever better engineered products rather than more features.
These lawsuits show how unsufficient the jury system is for cases like this where the jury is likely to be clueless.
:)
The jury is clueless by design. In fact, showing some knowledge of the subject at hand is usually enough cause for one of the attorneys to bounce you off the jury. Rationale being, I suppose, that if the jury knows nothing of the subject, you avoid having cliques of clueful geeks tieing up the legal process with irrelevantly useful arguments.
"Throw her in the Trough of Truth!"
What about the possibility of the companies filing counter-suits against those sueing them? They could claim frivolous lawsuits or damage to reputation. After a handful of people loose those cases, they'd probably be a lot less likely to persue such lawsuits just for a quick buck.
Alternatively, we could wait until the trail date and just take out all the jerks suing....
This is partially the result of how the US prices lawsuit awards. I.e. The Judge decides how much you deserve to suffer for committing a particular act, then they charge a some that will cause that.
I.e. Loss of life requires shedding of tears and sleepless nights so they will send you to the edge of bankruptcy.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
It's so easy to sue someone nowadays. Maybe there'll be a checkbox on the 1040 forms with "Lawsuits" as primary source of income...
------------
Demanding constant attention will only lead to attention.
Maybe you should let Webster know when you find out...
I am all against frivolous lawsuits is the first thing I would like to say...
;-)
... however the software and hardware industries need to be more accountable for their products. As I work for a smaller web and multimedia-design company, we are very aware that delivering our clients a reliable, working product is very important.
I have read some discussion lately of new laws that would potentially allow US software companies to supply warranties that absolve them of all responsibility from bugs their software causes.
Personally, I feel that I would rather have soft(/hard)ware companies be held *more* responsible for their products than less. However a lawsuit of this type seems ridiculous as well. We need something inbetween - but if companies have warranties that protect them when they ship faulty products, what can we do to threaten them with the message that delivering reliable products is what the consumers want?
Thankfully the Open Source and Free Software movements seem to be helping increase software reliability through peer checking. Let's just hope that such systems become more pervasive in the next millennium and filter through to the hardware companies as well. It would be nice (though unrealistic) if we could make lawyers redundant through cooperation and open working methods
A little planning goes a long way...
How can this happen?
We're talking about hard working people at Toshiba. Imagine if they had _lost_ the lawsuit! It'd be the end of the company.
We have people losing their lives working for Toshiba on one side and then suddenly because of one minor, theoretical issue the company closes 1999 with a deficit and gets hit financially like never before.
Worse yet: we have other rounds of nonsense while other companies are getting sued in the process. When will it stop? Can it stop?
How hard is it for a judge now to say "no, I won't let you win the case"? If one does, how does Toshiba stay then? If one doesn't, will we have to endure this process of stealing hard-earned money forever?
I'm not a lawyer, but perhaps someone can clarify me on this: is there any way to revert Toshiba's case and for them not to pay the 2.1 billion dollars?
Flavio
Generally, if you bring forth a suit and lose, you have to pay the other's legal costs, and perhaps some damages as well, for "inconveniencing" them, especially if the judge decides that your case has no merit in a pre-trial motion...
Probably seen more between companies, if you sue someone in a possibly slanderous or libelous way, you can also counter-sue... but you can't just counter-sue as a matter of principal...
Second, what about the modern warranties, those that say 'This product is sold in hopes that it will be useful, but we don't claim anything about it, particularly fitness for any particular purpose'?
Software "licenses" are the only things that really do this. Real things have various consumer laws on them that don't let them do this, etc. While it is pretty obvious what a Dewalt cordless drill does, it is also pretty easy with that drill to argue what its "intended" purpose is, and argue usability, etc., within those "common sense" confines.
Maybe if you put a marketroid and a lawyer in the same room, they will cancel each other in an explosion of hype/downplay reaction.
Wouldn't that be nice? Less marketroids, less lawyers, more energy! (not necessarily fit for any particular purpose)
Lawyers are bad, until you need one, but I don't think they cancel out marketeers or sales droids.
1. Who will defend the GPL and how
2. what will happen next.
Discuss.
No one is saying Toshiba or other computer manufacturers shouldn't be punished for faulty equipment. WE are saying that a $2,000,000,000 settlement of which the lawyers recieve the majority of the money is unfair. Did you also read the part about the plaintifs not even _owning_ a Toshiba laptop?
Umm... the mechanism for suing already works this way in most places: Loser pays and attornies working on contingency or for free...
Please read the story, not just the headlines. While I agree that software and hardware venders should be held liable for faulty merchandise, or for merchandise that does not perform as advertised, that does not seem to be the case in the new suits that have been filed. Specifically, this quote from the article:
"... the Toshiba case revolved around microcode issues specific to Toshiba."
If the Toshiba drives are faulty because of microcode that is specific to the Toshiba product, what basis is there for a class-action suit against other manufacturers? Unless they used Toshiba's product AND were aware of the flaw ahead of time in the product, then there is no case.
Quite simply, the lawyers are throwing class-action suits around, hopeing that something stick.
I see the possible downside to suing a company for selling a faulty product, losing and then being sued back. Sounds both horrible and possible. I was talking about 'blanket suits' like the ones here, in which there isn't even real damage, but only people betting on the legal system. I can almost see it: instead of 'Lucky Striker on the fourth race' it'll be 'Skeksis Instruments in North Carolina'... that should be stopped.
Also, lawyers are bad, even if you need one. Marketroids are bad too even if not as dangerous, but you sometimes need one even if you're not in trouble!
And lastly yes, I should have known about the ridiculous licenses we see for software being only for software. Now, if you compare the software license agreements (the Microsoft EULA for example), produced by lawyers, with the ads for THOSE SAME PRODUCTS, produced by the marketing people, you'd think they could cancel each other. Just now I realize that what you need to make a real explosion is putting any of them in contact with reality. Now all I need is some reality: do you have any?
Just adopt the English concept of "loser pays". If you file a suit because you weigh 400 pounds and a 150 pound labelled ladder broke, and the suit is lost, you pay both sides' attorney fees. IMHO this would keep a lot of cases out of court - lawyers would take cases only where their client was willing to pay (i.e., had a principle to go for) or the defendant was pretty clearly in the wrong.
John 17:20
"Why have they not issued updates to address the continuing prevalence of blue screens on Windows machines?"
Oh, I don't know. Because most of those BSODs are caused by OEM drivers, not MS code?
People like you are always so eager to jump down MIcrosoft's throat at the slightest provocation. When your day in court comes, thanks to a frivolous lawsuit, your perspective might change.
I heard (a VERY long while back) that the Pentiums had a very minute FPU error (after some cryptically large number)... Wonder if anyone has sued them for that?
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
What disturbs me the most about this type of class action suit is that the consumers seldom get more than a token award: a coupon towards the purchase of another of the manufacturer's products, or a few hundred dollars. Meantime, the lawyers collect millions in fees. I understand that these suits often get started when a law firm gets word of a problem and recruits "harmed" consumers to representative of the class. It's legalized extortion on the part of the law firms, nothing else.
I'm wary of tort reform as it has been presented in the past, because it tends to rob consumers of their rights to recompense for real damages. But I think some restrictions on legal fees would do wonders for the legal system. If lawyers could collect only a reasonable amount, we'd see fewer extortion suits, but consumers with real complaints would not be restricted in their rights to sue and collect damages.
No sig? Sigh...
The problem is that most people today are incapable of
Instead, the jurors make a snap, emotional decision, then stick with it, regardless of the facts or reason. In a case like this, the jurors say "You've suffered (somehow), and so we're going to give you a large sum of money. After all, WE aren't paying for it, insurance is." Of course, insurance isn't paying it, we are (via higher costs, premiums, etc.) but all the jurors want it to get back to watching Wheel of Fortune.
Perhaps instead of the current means of jury selection (Show up on this date or else!), what we should do is more like
This way:
Of course, the system would still have to compel employers to allow employees to take jury duty time without using vacation time, but they do this for Reserve duty anyway.
Of course, we'd then need MetaJury duty (review these 10 cases and decide it they were unfair, fair, or no opinion...)
www.eFax.com are spammers
There are clearly excesses in litigation in the US, driven by the size of the damage awards and the compensation of the lawyers. This does not mean that lawsuits don't have some benefits.
/.'ers are fond of pointing out, corporations don't understand anything except the bottom line, so any punishment for bad behavior has to involve significant amounts of money. I'd just as soon the money be divided among the ostensible victims as the result of a civil suit rather than be given to the government. That being said, any attempts to rationalize the system that don't silence legitimate complaints or needlessly coddle industry are fine by me.
Manufacturers of autos, consumer products, food, and prescription drugs have all been adversely affected by lawsuits. The result has been safer products of generally higher quality, albeit more expensive and equipped with patronizing warning labels. It is reasonable to expect a similar pattern with the rash of suits against hardware companies. Better, but more expensive products, with more and more outrageous disclaimers.
In the end, as McDonalds (the coffee burn), GM (fuel tank placement), and the tobacco industry found out, it is not unknown problems that hurt you so much as not fixing a known problem, or worse, being calculating in your decision not to fix the problem. This was what Toshiba feared and why they settled.
If you want to see what an industry without regulation or liability looks like, look no further than the software industry. You have rapid development, relatively inexpensive products, but weak quality. As they say, if cars were built like software, they would go 1000 miles in 10 minutes on a pint of gas (metric be damned!!!) but they could stop inexplicably at any time and each day there would be a one in a thousand chance that your car would simply blow up.
In the end billions in jury awards seem like a steep price to pay for corporate responsibility, but as
Have fun with you "legal system" - it sure needs some hacking.
Niels Kristian Jensen
-- From Denmark
Damnit I like America as well, don't apologize for that! Our Judicial System, however, is a sad joke! The 'settlements' that laywers get are nothing but extortion.
"They shall all drown is lakes of blood."
-kabloie
This whole ordeal just goes to point out the stark contrast between the ethics guiding the hardware and the software industries. Hardware is expected to fix known bugs and it does. Software on the other hand, has virutally all the factors which could reform it removed. You can't sue a software manufacturer due to all those in package liscense agreements (not alwasy enforcable, though if UCITA is passed, they'll be quite a bit more so). MS has gotten the government to agree to make laws protecting them, claiming that software can't be perfect, all the while raving about how secure its products are. So as repulsive as this lawsuit is, I'm glad that we have them. Because so far its lawsuits like this (along with a reasonable level of industry competition) which has kept the industry producing stuff that actually works.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
1. At least in NY, juries pay less than minimum wage. For some retail jobs, one of the perks is that the company will pay you the difference between what you get from jury duty and what you would've gotten if you'd worked. Lots of people don't have such a standing offer.
2. You're more wrong than you think. Batson v. Kentucky said it's unconsitutional for prosecutors to use preemptory challenges to exclude jurors because of race. J.E.B. v. Alabama ex rel said that it's unconstitutional to do the same for sex. It was the accused's race and gender that were being excluded in each of these cases.
And most of all, your jurisprudence of original intent falls on its face, especially in terms of voting. Nearly every one of the amendments passed since the bill of rights has extended the right to vote to more and more people, until we reach the present where for all intents and purposes it's "one person one vote".
(Go ahead and look at Scott v. Sandford and Plessy v. Ferguson for some examples of what sort of horrors a jurisprudence of original intent can wreak. It's with good reason that Bork isn't sitting on the Courttoday.)
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
Millions of users are subjected to data loss every year because of Microsoft's OSes. Yet we don't sue them. If anybody should be sued because of loss of data it is Microsoft.
What a bunch of thankless bastards. When they bought their machines, they gained the ability to do things that would have been superhuman a decade before. They no doubt clamored over each other in lines to buy these wonderful new machines, and the machines advanced their carreers and incomes and quality of life in far-reaching ways. The sweat and labor of the world's brightest minds brought them this capacity, and all their dim bulbs can muster is "my floppy drive was flaky. I deserve a settlement because although everything else worked beyond my wildest expectations, the floppy drive lost a byte on sundays during 5th month of a leap year, but only if there was a gibbous moon." Screw it! I'm gonna buy a big gun and move to Montana. This shit is getting out of hand.
me thinking that damages awarded in the US is neither based on emotions (I couldn't care less, since for now it doesn't affect me) nor is it only based on this case. damages awarded in the US are in general higher than those in the netherlands (I cannot comment on other countries since I don't know). Proof? the whole discussion about the amount of damages here, that are getting higher and higher. or at least.. the damages that are claimed, not necessarily those that are actually approved.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
First, the suers should be liable to be sued back if their claims are shown to be unsubstantiated, to avoid this 'buy-a-lottery-ticket-suits'.
Second, what about the modern warranties, those that say 'This product is sold in hopes that it will be useful, but we don't claim anything about it, particularly fitness for any particular purpose'? Maybe if you put a marketroid and a lawyer in the same room, they will cancel each other in an explosion of hype/downplay reaction.
Wouldn't that be nice? Less marketroids, less lawyers, more energy! (not necessarily fit for any particular purpose)
JM
It's unfair to blame the jury. Every case in the US justice system is subject to a trial by jury consisting of peers. That's the way it was set up, and it's a damn lot better than most other countries out there. There may be times when the jury is "clueless" regarding the issue at hand, but it's a check and balance that our country set up to prevent abuse of the justice system. The solution to their cluelessness? That's what the trial is for! The side that's worried about the jury being clueless will present the information they need in a way they will understand it. The side that wants to prey on their ignorance will put up a big emotional show while ignoring the technical bit.
Sorry, but I happent to *like* America.
-Chris
substantial penalties assessed against them (the suit might very well be
a reasonable and valid one) - the problem is that in the US you can bring a
lawsuit against a company or person with no risk whatsoever to yourself.
Think about these other mechanisms for potentially becoming wealthy:
In every case the opportunity for massive financial advancement is present
(just like in a lawsuit) but in every case *you* are required to risk something
initially in order to make yourself eligable for those financial windfalls.
I have had enough of this horsesh*t, what we need to do is:
your case you pay the entirety of your opponent's legal fees
plus an additional penalty for the time you have wasted
side's fees an attorney is free to shoulder the burden in exchange
for a healthy percentage should the case be proven
Lawsuit abuse costs us all, you can see the toll it has taken in
the cost of insurance, health care and many of the products we buy. We
are have become a nation of freeloaders and leeches and I don't believe
I am alone when I state that I am sick of it.
there are two kinds of people in this world - those who divide people into two groups and those who don't
Does that mean, we will soon have "no warranty" disclaimers on every piece of hardware? "Should your new processor prove defective, you assume the cost of all necessary servicing, repair or correction" ;)