Slashdot Mirror
IT Salary Comparisons Worldwide
Bagpiper asks: "The combination of a recent /. comment, as well as my wife's desire to live overseas, started my pondering about what my pay (mid-Atlantic US software/firmware engineer w/ 9 yrs exp.) would compare to that of a similar job in another country? Several sources tell me what I'd be making in The Valley or Seattle, but none tell me what I'd make if I moved to Ireland, or to Germany, or to Taiwan (you get the idea)? A related question is what kind of standard of living would I expect in another country on the expected salary? (And just in case my current employers or headhunters see this, I'm not currently looking! I'm just curious."
and this from Johnath: ""The more I look at places like monster.com (and it's Canadian Counterpart) the more I see "Salary: TBD" or "Please submit salary expectations with your resume and cover letter" or other equally vague phrases. As someone in the last year or two of his university education, this gets a little disturbing since I can't really tell what my salary expectations are without some reference for comparison. Normally, I'd get that by looking at the job postings themselves, but of course, they've all taken to being painfully cryptic. So what I want to know is - what's a geek cost these days? What kind of money do Slashdotters make in the various Computing and IT related fields.
What are the broader ranges - do network guys/gals get paid more than code monkeys? How does the pay of the web design team compare to the network admin that keeps the site running (and if they're the same person, how much better is the pay?"
I have two years of full-time experience. 1 1/2 as a SysAd, 1/2 as a software engineer. I work near Philly and currently make around $70K + stock options + education + good medical, etc. Of course the first job I got out of school paid less than I would've liked and was utterly horrible to work in, but it taught me a lot of the things to watch for in future employment. Now I'm exceedingly happy in my job, have enough variety in my job to keep it interesting and the pay, while not amazing, pays the bills nicely. I really suggest finding a GOOD headhunter. While it's hard to find a good one, I found one that I described what I liked about my last job, what I didn't, and she quickly found me a bevy of positions to choose from all of which were well-suited to my desires.
- A.P. (who makes enough, even as a student)
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
The first blank on your questionaire is GPA and major and you dropped out of school yourself to start this business? You've got to be kidding. Seriously though, this is probably the most important thing the article misses. Salaries really depend a lot of your GPA and education.
From a Yank who's been to England (one week training stint).
Housing:
The vast majority of US houses built in the 80's are like what you said, far better than their UK counterparts, for the money. But increasingly, new houses in the states are being built on much smaller plots of land. Even very, very large luxurious houses have these tiny tiny yards. Don't bother owning a large dog if you plan on buying a newer house. In California (at least around where I live), generally, older houses don't have basements, or screens on the windows (no bugs out here anyway). In Illinois though (where I came from) you're darn toonin' right you have screens on the windows. Bugs bugs bugs! And when there's no bugs, freezing rain.
Fuel:
You poor bastards. That's all I have to say.
Although, around London, I'd have to say you DO have a fabulous set of alternatives to driving. Best public transportation I've seen ANYWHERE, and I've been to MANY US cities, major and minor. Between the Great Western, and the Underground, you guys have it so nice. Back when I was in Illinois, they had trains and busses from the burbs into Chicago, but they were noisy, uncomfortable, and expensive as hell. Travelling by Great Western train in the London suburbs was luxurious, and pleasant. (what, I'm sure as hell not going to hire a car and hope I don't forget what side of the street to drive on - I nearly got killed several times as a pedestrian! Luckily, your works people are smart and painted "LOOK RIGHT" on the street by all pedestrian crossings - otherwise, I'd likely be dead now).
People:
No arguments there - but you can't make a blanket statement about US people. It varies widely by region. It's a big honkin country.
Computers:
You poor bastards!
Health service:
You poor bastards. Clinton almost had us in a similar mess. Thank goodness that didn't come to pass.
Other things -
Food: If you like food, England is NOT a nice place to live. Very little fruit is to be had, meat is often tough and fatty, and overcooked, although vegetables are often good quality. Lots of strange customary foods like blood pudding, and meat pies, etc. Luckily, American culture has somewhat infested the areas I was in, so there was some fallback to what I could eat.
Beauty:
I'll agree. England is stark-raving beautiful as a country. It's architecture, and countryside are second to none. It's music and culture are as rich as any in the world. But dentistry is obviously a hundred years behind the US. Not just an "Austin Powers" joke. It's true. BRUSH AND FLOSS DAILY!!!
But for the hottest chicks anywhere, listen to the Beach Boys song; you gotta come to California. The only problem is, they're a rare commodity in Northern California. SV guys should take weekend raids down to LA and import the hot chicks back to the Bay Area. They're wasted in Hollywood, where beauty can be bought cheaply.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Sorry but you're completely off base with those figures (mostly at the low end) - perhaps if you go right to a merchant bank in London you might hit the top of that scale here, but for the most part a graduate can expect around 14 up to 24 depending on location - the further north you get expect it to be lower (the UK's wonderful north/south divide is alive and well thanks to Maggie!).
Graduate salaries aside - a good IT worker here can expect to top out about 35-40k (according to the latest offerings in computer weekly - a trade mag) without going contracting. This is because the UK still is stuck in the 1970's with regard to who should get higher pay - management (big bosses can earn silly money here). On the contracting side of things it's much rosier. Expect low end to be around 25/h (although all contractor segments have been badly hit of late with a market slump prior to Y2K) and upper end can be anything really - I've seen/known people charging 100/hour or more for the right skills.
My advice: Go it alone, either contracting or your own business. IR35 has been killed for a while (do a net search to find out what that's about) and the contract market is looking up again. Also the Chancellor keeps announcing excellent measures for small businesses.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Try Scotland's central belt too. We don't have the beer (you have to like Malt Whiskey if you want a good local drink here) but I'd be willing to bet we come close in our wonderful rain factor. My brollie's never been out so much since moving.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
On the subject of not needing air-con, yes, that's true - you don't need it. It does get hot though. We've just had terrible summers lately. Lest ye forget the summer of 1995 when temperatures in London soared to 40 degrees (and I was stuck in a bedsit in Acton with a window that didn't open).
I don't mind too much about not using my car (I get the train to work every day) - but really there's little valid alternative yet. Our trains are appalling and expensive. Our buses are better but badly maintained and not nice to travel on. Try another country to see what I mean.
And what I really take issue with is "you'll get emergency care quickly and free". Free yes. Quickly, no. Not unless you're bleeding to death. My last trip to the ER was a couple of months ago my wife woke up in agony with pain in her severe womb region. I took her to the ER. It took her 4 hours to be seen. For 2 of those hours we were the only people in the ER (this was now about 3am). There were no emergencies that night blocking us - we were simply waiting - and my wife's pain didn't pass all that time (it was an ovarian cyst, for what it's worth). She wasn't given any pain killers until 6am. Nice health service. I have many similar stories but they aren't exactly slashdot fodder.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Maybe it is time to leave the UK? Let's see.
Maybe, but i doubt it. Just get a good accountant. Most contractor accountants have already figured out the ways around the bill - I know mine has. Need a good accountant? I can recommend mine www.jonesandco.co.uk
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Here's my perspective on the UK vs the US/Canada (my wife is Canadian and I know a lot of friends out in the US).
:)
:)
First thing is that salary is really irrelevant - you just can't compare dollars for pounds. I earn much more than some of the Canadian people I know, but they have more. Let's break that down:
Housing
The average house in the UK simply pales into comparison with our stateside friends. The problem here being LAND. We don't have much of it. Canadian houses I've seen (and US ones too) have much larger plots, have 3 levels (we don't have basements - at least not in new houses - only in houses > 75 years old), air conditioning, larger rooms, larger garages, and better facilities. UK houses are small, have very little land, and often you're lucky to get a garage. Air con is unheard of in a house. We don't have screens on our windows so expect to enjoy bugs in the summer. And expect to feel cramped - your house will probably be sandwiched on an estate with several hundred others, or in a terrace (OK, so that's not true for everyone, but you get the picture).
Fuel
Our govt doesn't like us driving. Current fuel tax is something like 85%. Yes, you read correctly. That makes petrol extortionately expensive compared to the US. And the price also varies vastly throughout the country (e.g. London: 66.9p per litre, A1 road outside of Edinburgh: 81.9p per litre). And there are plans to increase this price to discourage people from driving (eco friendly government - only they dont provide a valid alternative to driving).
People
People in London are miserable gits who don't speak to you unless they're drunk and asking for money. People in Yorkshire or Wales will speak to you whether you like it or not.
Seriously though - people here are friendly, but not outwardly friendly. What I mean by that is you shouldn't expect the "customer is always right" attitude you're used to in America. Oh no. Most definitely the salesperson is always right, and by god you'd better not trifle with them. Thankfully this is changing. Slowly. There is one good thing: Salespeople (except car salespeople, but that's another story) don't approach you unless you look approachable. I like this - especially as I have been acosted in Canada by a salesperson in a lingerie store (buying for my wife, not me!) - somewhere I'd rather just be discreet and leave as soon as possible!
Computers
This is the worst - and most likely to scare you off. It's got me thinking about leaving for the US or Canada...
We have no DSL yet (some trials perhaps). We have very little cable internet yet. High speed internet access is a myth here. Unless you live in Guildford apparently. A T1 is about 20k pounds per year. Even ISDN is extortionate. We pay by the minute for internet access - my bill is about 150 pounds per month.
Health service
Our health service is free (You pay a small percentage tax from your salary for it). And it SUCKS. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise - if they try to they've either never had a serious illness, or they don't know any better. I've got nothing good to say about the health service here - except that the people who work for it are angels - the quality of the service is not their fault, it's financial. Our NHS doctors work something like 80hrs/week (would you want someone that tired working on you?) and our nurses work longer. I could relay some horror stories about the NHS here but I'll not waste my time.
OK, now that I've scared you off, I'll say that England is beautiful. It's a stunning country with huge amounts of history and lovely people. For that alone it's worth living here. And the pay rate for IT contractors means you'll have a big house, a nice car, and be able to pay for private health care. You still won't get high speed internet access though
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Your knowledge of security rules you out of most jobs in the UK, especially Universities, Research Labs, etc.
I -can- tell you that the figures for salaries covers the private sector. Public sector employees can expect 1/2 of that, if they're lucky. Also, the phenominal VAT that the oh-so-generous Conservative Government left England with eats your pay like nothing else.
(Translation for Americans: VAT is the UK version of sales tax. When I left England, it was at 17.5%.)
Oh, also, if you smoke, drink lots, or like to drive large cars, don't bother going to England. Tobacco, alchohol and petrol are taxed through the nose.
In other words, gross salary (other than being literally gross, in England) isn't everything you need to consider. There's the cost of living, too.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Nick (who can't wait for his mountaineering trip in France/Switzerland/Italy this summer.)
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
I'm a Montrealer in exile in Mountain View (we could get a beer sometime!)
/., who, if they moved to Montreal, would find it practically impossible to register in an English school. The abolition of the parochial school boards doesn't change that.
:^)
When I lived on the Plateau (five years ago), it's true that $500 would get you good housing on the Plateau - $300 in Villeray and even less in ParkEx or NDG. (I won't speak of that awful place known as Cote-des-Neiges.) I just went back and found rents were much higher. $800 is a slightly high estimate. I found apts on Rachel between St Laurent and St Denis running in the $700-$900 range. On De Lorimier, it was a couple hundred cheaper. It seems times are good on the Plateau - rents are as high there as in Outremont.
Cheap housing is still to be found in NDG. Monkland Ave is apparently where poor artists live these days.
Only people who have attended an English school in Canada, or whose parents or siblings did, can register in English schools in Quebec. (That's not Bill 101 either - it's the same for French schools outside of Quebec. Turns out this silliness is actually in the constitution.) I intended that for the non-Canadians on
Personally, that doesn't bother me, I'd like to see my kids in French school - I used to date one of the teachers at the Ecole International. Chus ben et bel bilingue, moe'! But, I can see how it might be a turn off for Americans.
I have a couple more stock disbursements coming, and since company competes directly with Microsoft, I figure the anti-trust case has to do our stock some good. Once I see that cash, and pay off the rest of my debts, I'm going to circulate my CV in Montreal. I figure somebody must be hiring UNIX techs, and I'll take the lower pay. I miss the place too - I spent a week there with my fiancee in September and she fell in love with the place. She hasn't seen it in winter yet, but what's life without some surprises?
God, I could kill for a smoked meat sandwich with poutine and a brio. I guess it must be lunchtime.
You know MS Office? Can you write macros in VB? If so, you are now an experienced VB programmer. Written a web page? You are an experienced web engineer, with a background in cross-browser compliant development. Ever worked in an office with both UNIX and NT? You have experience in highly hetrogenous networked environments.
Your background isn't in help desks, it's in end-user assistance. SW/HW testing, advanced software technologies, ISP management (how many users? A few thousand maybe? That'll impress them.)
Use more buzzwords! Use more abbreviations! Remember, you're an engineer!! (I hear all you guys who actually got engineering degrees snickering in the background. So what? None of you are HR people.)
Operating Systems: MacOS v6-9, Solaris/SunOS 1.x-2.x, Windows3.1, 95 and NT.
Productivity systems: MS Office, Applix, CorelOffice (name some more - if you've never used them, go to a software store and play with the demos)
Hardware: Macintosh - 680x0 and PPC-based systems, PC's - 386-Pentium III, Sun SPARC and UltraSPARC. Various high-end computing platforms.
Networking systems: Server administration of: e-mail systems, AppleTalk, NetBIOS, TCP/IP, NFS, FTP and web servers...
Apply for jobs that you're not qualified for. Apply actively - posting your resume on Monster won't do it.
Don't push it too much, apply for jobs where you're pretty sure you can acquire the skills you need. Then, with a buzzword compliant resume to get you in the door, tell them at the interview that you're sure you learn quickly and expect to be on the ball in short order. Remember, it's their job to tell you you're not qualified, not yours.
It took me about a year, going through four jobs, to jump from $8/hr to about $40, and that's most of what I did. Now, at each job, I did actually learn the skills I set out to acquire there. In that year I learned to code and I learned UNIX. By the time I quit a job, I was always qualified for it.
My mother and brother live in Winnipeg, but I hate the place - okay, I'm biased. :^)
Vacation time in Silicon Valley: if you're a contractor (as many are) there is no paid vacation time. Any unpaid time you take off is by negociation between you and your employer. At my company, you get ten paid days off, and a free paid week between Christmas and New Years. Ten paid days is the standard here, plus the official holidays.
Saskatchewan, ewww! I don't think I could take Newfoundland either, although I gather you can buy a house for under $5000 there.
I came to the US the first time when I was 9. My father was in graduate school on a student visa. Three years later, he had a Master's and had finished classwork for his PhD when he got a job offer from a public college in New Jersey. We applied for green cards.
The first year, his university and the college agreed to call his employment part of his PhD training, so he could stay on his student visa and get paid. Legally, they could only do that for a year. The second year, they gave him a loan to cover his salary, and agreed to write it off at the end of the year. I'm pretty sure that's illegal - but hey, who am I to complain. I don't know the details of the loophole they used.
The third year, about mid way through, we got our green cards. Now, this was a public college, the state dept of Ed was pressuring the INS all the way or it would have taken twice as long. This was in the middle of the Reagan years - the INS was notoriously slow.
Immigrating to Canada: I expect to go back to Canada with my soon to be wife, and American. I am told it takes about 4 months to process that kind of application and I get to do it through Employment and Immigration Canada rather than Quebec. Quebec only handles economic migration - family unification and refugees are still handled by the feds.
If you immigrate to Quebec, you have to stay in Quebec until you're a landed immigrant. You can change jobs while you wait - even if you're sponsored I think - but if you spend too much time unemployed, they kick you out.
Landed status still takes a couple of years. Quebec also usually favours French speaking immigrants, but there are exceptions, especially for those in technology.
Welcome to Canada! The winters suck, but the rest is worth it.
In Silicon Valley, relatively inexperienced computer techs can easily pull in over US$60,000 a year. Skilled people can get $100,000 or more with fairly little trouble. (My fiancee who hasn't even finished her BA in German translation makes $53/hr as an intranet contractor here.) Regular empolyees also benifit usually from significant bonuses in stock and options.
:^) Except for Ontario, public universities are far less expensive than state schools in the United States, and quality of education is higher than the US average.
This is certainly a lot of money in an America where median household incomes are about US$38,000/yr and most people have no significant assets. (This is only slightly better than 1979 household medians.)
However, rent here will kill you. A two bedroom apt on the Peninsula starts at $1500/mo in Mountain View or Sunnyvale and goes up to $3000 in Palo Alto or Menlo Park. Studios start at $1000. Services - like eating in a restaurant - are fairly expensive. Gas is relatively expensive compared to the rest of the US ($1.60 a gallon isn't unheard of). Car insurance can be high. And commuting to work is horrible. There is no public transit worth a damn. Buses and light rail in Santa Clara county cost $1.25, $2.00 in San Mateo or to get over the Dumbarton Bridge, and $1.25 in Alameda. BART and Caltrain cost between $1.10 and $8.00 each way depending on how far you're going.
Trust me, that high salary doesn't go nearly as far as you might hope, and quality of life suffers in a lot of unexpected ways.
Entertainment in Silicon Valley: there is none. There are a few movie theatres owned by a quasi-monopoly called Century Theatres. Ticket prices are roughly US$8.50. There is a little bit of high-brow culture in the south bay, but not much and prices are high. San Francisco is better, but you can't drive there very easily and parking is a nightmare. After the first few attempts, you'll stop trying.
Fry's Electronics is perhaps the most entertaining place in the bay area.
Cable modems are available in many areas, starting at US$50/mo with US$150 to install. DSL runs around $400 to install, and about $80/mo for decent bandwidth.
If you work in tech as a regular employee, life, disability and medical insurance is usually included, and usually included a PPO option that is far better than the HMO plans that the peasants get. If you are a contractor, expect to pay a lot for an HMO plan and get poor service.
Now, Canadian tech incomes are lower, but in general no more than 20 or 30% lower. Usually, a tech job in Canada pays the same number of dollers as a comparable job in the US, but Canadian dollars are worth 23% less.
Cost of a movie ticket in Montreal is about CAN$10 (US$6.70). Rent on a two bedroom apartment in Montreal on the Plateau (artsy, yuppie area) is about CAN$800 (US$540). Montreal and Toronto offer comprehensive and rapid public transit. In Montreal a ticket costs CAN$1.25 ($US0.85) and a pass cost less that CAN$50/mo. Most Canadian cities offer at the very least comprehensive, regular bus service. In Toronto, as I understand it, prices are higher than in Montreal, and in Ottawa they are lower. Gasoline in Canada is about the same price as in California.
Quality of life issues: even Winnipeg (Canada's version of hell) has more cultural options than San Jose. Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto compare favourably with many European capitals in this respect. And you can get at least as many channels on cable in Canada as in California.
Cable modems and DSL in Canada cost about CAN$40/mo (US$27) and are available in nearly all core metropolitan areas. Restaurant prices in Montreal are roughly half (yes, 50%) of Silicon Valley prices.
Although many Canadians complain about their socialised medical services (and there are some genuine problems), they remain superior to the American HMOs I've had, and you keep your benefits even if unemployed. There is basically no paperwork when you see a physician, and you can see any doctor you choose. Most tech companies offer some form of supplimental medical insurance as a benefit - usually covering prescription and dental care which are outside normal medical coverage.
Schools in Canada are generally excellent (at least by comparison to the California public school system), and private and religious education is partially or wholly subsidised in most of Canada. Naturally, if you plan to move to Quebec, the only schools you can send your children to are in French - la vie est dure.
Taxes in Canada are somewhat higher than in the US, but not excessively so for those in middle income brackets. There are fewer convienient loopholes, but equivalents of the IRA and 401k are available. Taxes are considerably lower than in the UK or Ireland. (If you plan to be a billionaire, forget Canada - Bermuda is a much better choice.)
As I understand it, prices in New York and Boston are comparable to those in Silicon Valley, but Austin, Provo, Boise, Ann Arbor, Chicago and Atlanta (supposedly where the new tech companies are going) are generally much cheaper. I don't know from personal experience - I have lived in some of those places, but only many years ago. In other parts of the US, there are real bargains. A tech income in Omaha, Memphis, Houston or somewhere else well off the beaten track will probably enable you to live like a king, but I can't stand most of those places. If you can, by all means go for it.
As for me, as soon as my debts are paid off, I'm going back to Canada.
I am a software developer-contractor with $100/hour rate. I am toying with the idea of spending summer in UK, is it possible to get 3-4mo contract there ? If yes, what kind of rate can I expect ? Well, the bottom has pretty much dropped out of the UK contract market at the moment. Mine expires in 3 weeks, and there's almost nothing available. Everyone's waiting until post-Y2K before even considering taking on new contractors. There's a few short term contracts available, and I'll probably have to take one until the market picks up again (which people seem to think will be around March). I even saw a one week contract as a Linux trainer :-) Rates are depressingly low at the moment -- around £40/hour, although I'm hoping they'll pick up again. If you go for financial institutions in the City of London, you're looking more at £55 to £75 per hour. 3-4 month contracts are very common, although you may need to check about work permits and the like.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Ignore the salaries listed there. They usually only list the lower end of the spectrum. You can certainly get 60k+ in the City, and 45k elsewhere in London. I'm not saying it's common, and you need a certain amount of experience to get that sort of money, but it doesn't top out at the 35/40k you're quoting.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
FWIW, I'm currently on £50/hour in London, and am looking for more Unix contract work. I'd consider a permanent position, but not for less than £50,000 a year, and even then, I'd have to think twice about it. I like the freedom of contracting.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
A bachelor's is an undergraduate degree. A graduate degree depends on the field, but is generally called a master's or PhD. A polytechnic degree is usually called a technical or associate's degree.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
Technically I'm under a 1-year noncompete and 2-year IP ownership thing, which is part of how this company controls its employees; they made very strong implications when I was interviewing with them that there wasn't such an agreement, and of course, after spending a few thousand dollars to get my sorry self out here, they give me this very anti-freedom contract to sign - what was I going to do, say "I can't take this job" and be homeless/penniless? It wasn't an option, especially since I had dragged two of my friends out here with me. Fortunately, the contract is phrased in such a way that it's only really valid in Virginia, and if they ever try to take me to court, I'd have a very strong argument that they coerced me into signing it to begin with (which they did; when I was simply dumbfounded by the contract, the company president spent half an hour basically brainwashing me into thinking that the contract was for my good and not the company's - complete bullshit, of course). They also coerced me into taciturnly giving up potential rights to quite a few graphics-related algorithms I developed in college which would have been very useful for them. Fortunately I managed to avoid making it possible for them to claim I'd even thought about any of them at work, which I hadn't.
Regardless, I think going to grad school is right for me, and your response to my post was very helpful in solidifying that notion. Many thanks. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
I'm leaving Virginia, but I already left the company a couple months ago. It was a small company, however, and they're competent - well, enough to be dangerous, anyway. But again, aside from what I put down on my 'prior inventions' page on the contract (which they simply threw out anyway, part of their coersion tactics), I never divulged any information to them on any algorithms I came up with on my own time, and I made a concsious (and successful) effort to not come up with anything new and useful while working for them.
As far as which grad school, I don't feel that I really need to go to a university with an extreme specialization in VR or graphics. The university I'm going back to has enough to make me happy; the department is small, but very diverse, but not so diverse that it's incredibly fragmented and spread thin. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
For me, happiness requires an academic setting. It's just the way I am. I meant nothing controversial by my last statement, which was, I believe, originally directed specifically towards academically-minded individuals such as myself. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
And I'm in northern Virginia, as I think I said elsewhere. Fairfax. though it looks like I'll be out of here as soon as next Friday.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
For the off-topic bit: I have come to realize that the industry isn't for me. Academia is where I belong. I'm not a mercenary programmer. So of course, after a few months of living relatively large (figuring I'd be gainfully employed for a long time) I'm having my world kinda crash down around me, financially anyway. It doesn't help at all that I incurred some debt in moving out here which I, very stupidly, put off paying back. All in all, I'd have about broken even for the whole experience were it not for the various tech toys I suddenly found myself able to buy... Even though I rationally know that grad school is best for me, and emotionally know it as well, it just doesn't help to have all you mercenary types rubbing my nose in what kinds of salary I'm giving up. :)
I've never been into computing and programming for the money, except for a brief period of time when I was graduating college and I got suckered into putting off my happiness for the promises of getting to keep doing the cool stuff while also making enough money to live very comfortably. Of course, those promises never panned out, and the company I got hired by turned out to be nothing more than a pair of two-bit swindlers doing whatever they could to control spineless employees who didn't know better and weren't at liberty to leave for a variety of reasons.
I need to give some advice to academic types who might be reading this thread: which do you prefer, money or happiness?
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
Unless you are aged 18-21 and you live somewhere that doesn't allow under-21s to buy alcohol, tax or no tax. (Although other countries are better still of course.)
Tobacco is expensive, but I don't think the costs of running a car are much worse than elsewhere in Europe. (IIRC Germany has the most large cars of any European country, the UK is second.)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
...stock options. Some companies offer options up front, in lieu of a higher salary. Granted, this is a gamble in a lot of cases, but with a competitive IT field and a raging stock market, it's nonetheless becoming more and more prevalent.
That's about right for Canada. I've mostly seen between $38k and $48k CAD.
But salary's only a part of your compensation. Comparing benefits packages is much more difficult. What do their retirement benefits look like? Stock options? Discounted stock?
/peter
"Looking through all your comments I find this quite surprising. I thought that you guys/gals in the US were all on $80-$100K, but it seems that that isn't the case. It makes me feel slightly happier about my situation here in the UK."
Don't forget that this is a big country. Cost of living and salaries vary everywhere. For the record I live in Northern Virginia and it is quite typical to find programmers making between $80-$100k.
However, in June I just paid $300,000 for a house here. Don't get me wrong, this is a big house. But if I moved out to South Dakota or something I probably couldn't buy a house for that much if I wanted to. I doubt they make them big enough; the cost of living there is much lower. They also don't make as much though.
What I would be interested in seeing is a national or global chart of ratios of cost of living vs. average income. This would be very telling.
For example, supposedly Fairfax County, VA and Orange County, CA keep swapping places for highest average income. However, based on my limited research, the cost of living here in Fairface County is much lower.
The ratios would be very telling.
-Paul
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
This is the Salary Calculator that Money magazine links to in their tools section. It works pretty well. Helps to compute the "real" dollar amount of that large salary offer with relo is worth....
Caveat: I've found that it
So, YMMV. But at least it's a start :)
This is my opinion and my opinion only. Incidentally, IANAL.
MOO;IANAL.
There used to be a picture linked here.
You are getting screwed. Starting sysadmins here in the midwest (a moderate to low cost of living area) are getting at least $40k. Experienced sysadmins are getting $50k-$65k. Sysadmin managers are getting $60-$75k.
Given what you are doing, you should be making at least double what you currently are.
What? In the midwest starting sysadmins make $40K? I wish.
Yep, around here they do. In Chicago they make more, but the cost of living is closer to east coast levels. The cost of living around here is probably fairly similar to Madison.
I work for a univeristy
Here is your mistake. Universities pay poorly. It is very difficult to make decent money in a college town due to the glut of people who will work for dirt. I used to work for a university (about 30 miles from where I live now), about 10 years ago, I then lived for a short time in the SF bay area, when I came back to the midwest I moved to a larger non-university town where I basically doubled what I was making at the University. In the past 10 years I have tripled my income as one would expect with experience.
(UW Madison to be precise - the biggest in the state and one of the Big 10 in the US)
A friend of mine who lives in Milwaukee makes considerably higher than that as a sysadmin with similar years of experience to yours. I should ask him what entry level people are making where he works.
The university though is the most chill work environment you could possibly have - access to equipment and knowledge like you wouldn't believe, and comes with an amazing benefits package that is topped by few private companies.
The benefits at universities are only good if they will give you a full time job. When I worked for a university, I worked full time hours, but wasn't considered full time, and I got no benefits at all. In fact that had a lot to do with my decision to get the hell out of there.
I've worked at small, mid sized and currently work for a large (Fortune 100 sized) company. Access to equipment and knowledge is good at a university, but don't knock the private sector until you've tried it.
A friend of mine still works as a sysadmin at the same university I used to work for. He has been there for over 10 years now, and he makes only about 1/2 what I do. I've tried to get him to move down here, because I could easily find a job for him making considerably more than what he gets now, but he won't budge. Its kinda sad, because he has a degree in Com Sci with a 3.9 something GPA. I never finished college, and I make twice the money.
I suppose you could find that type of work environment in smaller cutting-edge geek-shops where they know how to take care of us types... but those are in short supply here in the mid-west.
Not around here they aren't. Lots of opportunities here in that sort of shop. Lots of opportunities in general, as unemployment around here is currently at record low levels (like 2.5% or something). I recently turned down a C/C++ programmer job that paid in the 60's.
I think you'd find the situation similar in other midwestern cities like Minneapolis, Kansas City, Omaha, etc.
The town I live in is only about 300K people, however the only colleges here are a small private university and some even smaller private colleges, so they have no noticeable impact on the wage situation, especially since none of them are technically orriented and they turn out very few Com Sci students.
:-)
Another bad thing about Madison (which is also true of the town I live in, unfortunately) is that it is the state capitol. The state governments pay poorly also, albiet in general not any worse than a public university does. Luckily the town I live in is really mostly dominated by insurance and financial companies as far as the job market goes.
As for moving to Chicago, you would see dramatically better salaries there, but as I noted before, the cost of living in the Chicagoland area is nearly as high as the east coast. If you can hack the weather, I'd consider the twin cities instead, or for warmer weather I'd look at Kansas City, Omaha or perhaps even St Louis.
For the sake of not appearing biased and the fact that if you like Madison, you'd probably be bored to death here, I am not recommending the town I live in.
For the non-merkins here, let me add another angle to the discussion.
:-)
Canadian immigration procedures seem to be a lot faster, more predictable, and more fair than the US ones.
Using mainstream cases (employment-based, no "exceptional performance" or other "fast" special cases in US green card process) I have the following (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or a statistician or an immigration specialist, other than about my own case. If you find important errors in the information below do a good deed and let us all know, and please talk to a lawyer before you act):
US green card: Best case start-to-finish is 2 years, assuming you've got that much left in your H-1B to go for consular processing. If you go for adjustment of status right now you'll be in a black hole for an unknown number of years. The INS has stopped processing employment based AOS since last March or so. Remember that during GC processing, you must stay with the sponsoring employer.
Canadian PR: My lawyer claims 5-6 months if no interview is required, 11-12 if an interview is required. Very interested to hear about other peoples' experiences. When applying as an independent immigrant there's no "sponsoring employer".
US GC: Employment-based GC means you make a commitment to stay with sponsoring employer "indefinitely". That means that at the time you get the green card you have that intention, although obviously unexpected changes in circumstances would explain you leaving your sponsoring employer. Again, see a lawyer. But don't think that your company's HR and your boss don't know about this one.
Canadian PR: You're a free agent as soon as you land. Some restrictions do apply re: Quebec vs. non-Quebec residence and you do need to continue to be a professional geek if that's what you promised you'd be. But you wouldn't have a problem with that, would you? Again, see a lawyer for real legal advice.
It was a hard decision and I do love the Bay Area, but I've had it with being an (admittedly well-paid) indentured servant. Freedom is indeed worth quite a bit of money, so if all goes well, next year, Hello Vancouver (or Toronto).
Comments most definitely welcome, especially from Canadians offering free advice
Advice to geeks, especially ones who haven't been in the job market for very long: Be careful not to reduce a job opportunity's value down to a dollar figure. Geeks seem to overlook this and then complain about how much their job sucks, but based on the ravenous job market, there's really no excuse other than inertia. If you're looking now, make sure you consider the qualitative properties of a job.
:)
If you look back a few weeks you will see a story about working in a tech sweatshop. Bear that in mind when looking at employers. You can get a big salary and lots of options but it may not be worth it if you are expected to work 80 hours a week. Or, you may be expected to be on call 24/7, which is a hell of a lot more than the 45-55 hours which are typical of the industry. Asking what happens salary wise when you work 100 hours in a week can be very eye-opening. I got an answer from one employer of "nothing, you are expected to do a job, however long that takes." And guess what the hours looked like...
Also, what about knowledge management? Are you doing the same work that has been done before by co-workers? How will you find someone who has done what you are doing? Yeah, trailblazing is fun and all, but rediscovering known bugs isn't especially fun. Also, there should be KM from you to the rest of the organization. Being the main tech go-to guy is dangerous. If you are so important, will they ever let you take a vacation and leave you alone? The geeky analogy is clustering - you don't want to be a single point of failure or the pointy-haired ones will never want to let you out of their sight, much less out of town for a week. Will you be working on Xmas eve, New year's eve? Will you get yelled at if you take a 75 minute lunch?
What is the technology environment? Just because you like *nix doesn't mean your boss does. Will you be forced to use something you don't want to? What is the email environment? Who makes these decisions and how binding are they on the individual? Will you be forced to run Win98 and Outlook just because the MS Exchange sales pitch to the IT manager was slick? How developed is the company intranet? What if you have something useful to post - what is the process for getting your info out there?
If you are looking at a startup, what is the non-stock risk factor? For example, is the current boss going to be replaced by a "real CEO" (answer: almost certainly). What will this CEO's vision be, if any? Will the office move to an inconvenient location? Will you be sure to get a paycheck every time, on time? Are they hiring so fast that a few (or a lot of) a-holes are bound to get in as well? Will they be identified and fired, or will they become your boss?
Ask about things like how project deadlines are set. There needs to be a process - "whenever I need it done by" isn't going to be very fair to you. You should be involved in the process of setting deadlines, or else it's always going to be based on when they want it done (yesterday), not when it is feasible to do.
Consider the commute. If you can take public transportation, that may mean that you can sell your car and save $hundreds a month, or at least you can get back productive time (laptop or magazine on the subway / bus). Plus, sitting in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour each way is a serious pain in the butt, and it doesn't ever really get better unless you move.
If you ever want to go make friends, find/retain a significant other, and see your family, think about more than just the cash and options.
Shameless plug: I like to think I have found a great employer who pays market rate *and* has a great culture, and particularly has a core value of life balance. E-mail me if you are interested - jamie.flournoy@viant.com. Include a resume if you want, of course
Canada is a pretty large place so you'd better watch those blanket statements about salaries in Canada. Here in the Nation's capitol (Ottawa, not Toronto), starting salaries coming out of University are around the $40k mark - it can be higher or lower depending on the company and the skill set/experience you have.
However, if you were to move to Nova Scotia, you're probably looking at $30k starting out.. but again, you have to look at the cost of living/lifestyle differences.
I'd have to honestly say that the choice to live in Canada is mostly a lifestyle choice. After taxes, that $40k salary will work out to just over $20k.. which is still quite a bit to live on in Canada.. however, the high taxes are also one one of the main reasons Canadians head south of the border.
I recently spent a lot of time in the Silicon Valley where everyone seems to be approaching the $100k (US) mark, but no one can afford to live a decent life (what I consider a decent life) unless they're a millionaire, so.. what's the point?
(all the $ values I listed above are Canadian dollars unless I specified otherwise..)
Network Support Analyst £25k (=US$41K)
Network Manager £35k (=US$57.4K)
For a database on average salarys this is an useful resource - UK only though...
Incidentally I am currently looking for alternative employment in the London area. Experience of LAN/WAN connectivity using Cisco Router and Switch equipment. Good NT experience. Experience of UNIX systems. Firewall Experience and general network security knowledge. Any offers?
Looking through all your comments I find this quite surprising. I thought that you guys/gals in the US were all on $80-$100K, but it seems that that isn't the case. It makes me feel slightly happier about my situation here in the UK.
:)
:)
As for people suggesting that a graduate start of £14K is adequate, beware, especially if you are travelling down to London to start your new job. If we say you can spend 33% of your post-tax salary on rent then you will most likely be living under the charing-cross bridge with the tramps. The cost of Living in London is high, especially if you want to have a life!
I didn't get a degree and I started on £14k in 1995, in Surrey, on the border of South London, thankfully I've worked out of that situation to double the value and soon hope to be earning even more for my worth.
If an employer only offers to pay IT staff £14k then he: (a) will probably be going bust within the year, (b) will make a mint, whether it is (a) or (b) completely depends on whether he can sucker accept his measly £14k offer.
Someone mentioned the junk-IT staff that we have in most companies. Yes, they do exist, and they probably cause more problems than they solve - (I had one who disabled User access to our domain controllers today, and nobody was able to login) - but, for some, unknown reason, the managers (or suits) actually seem to like them - usually they have better social and communication skills than the gurus that have championed the tech departments for years.
Our Telephone staff earn £14 or so here, and all they do is answer the telephones!
In short, don't let the side down, get what you're worth and don't settle for less, otherwise you will be devaluing our skills and I won't be best pleased!!!
If you're willing to work contract, you can make a lot more than that in Canada. I started at $40/hr right out of University (although I did have 2-3 years of work experience already). And really, any coder worth their beans can do my job. I'm just building web applications using DB2 and server side JavaScript.
:)
By the way, $40/hr is the minimum that you should ask for (in Toronto). I was asked how much I wanted, and I said $40. That's what I got, no questions asked... Makes me think I should have said 50 or 60 and haggled with them a bit
Your friend made the mistake to start at 2/3 of a normal salary I think.
There is an arti cle in the German IT-Newspaper Computerwoche about German IT salaries. From my experience as an IT Consultant the salaries in that paper seem to be quite low, though.
A typical post-degree starter salary is 75kDM per year.
A junior consultant with some experience gets about 90kDM.
Please keep in mind that we have very high income taxes in Germany. We have progessive taxation (the percentage grows with the income), up to 53% for a high income.
The IT center of Germany is just around München (English speaking people like to mis-spell that "Munich"). For IT people in finance, Frankfurt (we call it "Bankfurt" somtimes) is the place. Smaller IT cities are Hamburg and Bremen in the north, a little bit in the Hannover area. More and more service companies are moving to Berlin now, thus there are some jobs there.
A very good starting point for searching job adverts (sorry, all in German) are the pages of the newspaper DIE ZEIT. They use a crawler to collect information from many other job sites. They have a page for international jobs too.
-- "Wherever you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai)
In my experience starting salaries tend to be around $40K CDN - or about $27K American. That's for any type of coding. Of course, rates rise with experience
Anybody want to offer more?:)
J:)
Oh well, no point in steering now.
Pick a small company in a non-computer related, slow-paced sector. Forgot getting a degree and get lots of experience instead. For preference, get some experience of the business first. Sticking with one company for as long as you can bear it helps as you can acquire seniority simply by being there.
:-)
While it might not be the sexiest work around BEING the IT department is kinda fun. Finding a small, successful company and filling that role can be a lot of fun (with the right company). There is little specialization (for me at least) but I do DBs, network sec./arch., web stuff, support (blech), and like davey said "fix pretty much anything with a plug."
They are also rather dependent on you so when you walk in after a year and ask for a 70% pay hike, they give in happily.
+&x
I'd also encourage folks to contribute their current rates - kind of like open source for salary information!
Steve Cline http://www.clines.org, http://www.objectbap.com
I'm not sure what the IT situation is in Orlando, though I haven't heard much good about Florida. Are you committed to staying in Florida, or are you willing to relocate? Northern Virginia isn't too far away, and seems to need people.
You do mention working in college computer labs. Is this a big college town? That seems to be the kiss of death for salary, since your competition is hungry college students who need beer and pizza money.
You mentioned certifications, but didn't list any of the three and four letter acronyms that resume reading software and PHB's like, you know, CNA, CNE, MCP, MCSE. Do you have those, have you considered working for those?
How about networking? Do you belong to any local users groups, where you can meet someone who can get you in?
How about getting a BS? Some companies have the luxury of throwing all non-BS/BA resumes in the trash, especially if they're older/more conservative, or the labor market is tight. Tying this together with my company, some divisions won't look at you without a four year degree, others will start you at $30k+ if you know computers and are willing to work on the hotline. If you didn't know which division to apply to, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
Hope this helps.
George
You are getting screwed, but you probably already knew that.
Beyond that, I've always found contracts that don't allow you to discuss your salary to be a big red flag. Every company I've ever seen that included that sort of clause has not impressed me. Think about it...why would they stipulate that? It's almost a sort of security by obscurity...and we know how well that works.
Let me guess, they also have some stupid (and probably invalid/illegal) non-compete clause as well, right?
--GnrcMan--
The salary for you first geek job is not terribly important...you won't be keeping it for long...:)
The industry is such that they only way to get ahead is to change jobs frequently your first five years or so. Otherwise you get locked into a 5-7% raise structure, and never get anywhere.
So, forget salary, and try to land something that will expose you to skills in growing areas you can market later. The value of someone with even a year experience is so much greater than that of a college kid...that is when you want to start thinking about the dollar signs.
The bay area is the only place I know you will actually make lots of cash, quickly. If you leave the USA, you may be disappointed. As an Australian I can tell you that salaries there allow you to live comfortably, but only because the cost of living is much lower - and you won't be much better off than say, a plumber or a successful shopkeeper. If you see a Porsche boxster in Australia, I'd put my money on the driver being in real estate or finance. I think in the bay area the cost of living is about double, but my salary is about triple - and if you're prepared to live out of the city you can save a lot of money fast, and of course we all know what stock and options can do. In Germany I understand from talking to engineers there that the situation is similar.
Benefits offered will be different. In some countries there is a real health system, and instead of offering HBO/PPO plans you will get a car + fuel provided. While there may be tax benefits to joining a private health scheme, most people don't as it's not really necessary. Australia has compulsory employer-funded superannuation, so don't worry about 401k deductions either. Four weeks is the standard vacation per year.
Finally, I don't think you will get options in many countries. I have never heard of anyone getting options as an engineer in Australia, and the Germans tell me it is also unheard of.
One possibility I have heard of is to contract in the UK. Figures of around 80 pounds per hour (BTW, this '#' means HASH, not POUND - I want to slap anyone who says "pound define") were mentioned to me when I looked into it. That's a lot of money, but living in London will cost you a packet too. No benefits as a contractor of course, and no holidays either.
The biggest thing you have to worry about is your visa/passport situation. I assume you have already looked into that and have a short list of countries that you can move to/work in? If you haven't then do that first, the USA isn't the only country with restrictions.
AND make sure you know what is like to work in some other place. I'm sitting at my bay area desk in tracksuit pants, with free brewed coffee and a free bagel. I have a 21" monitor and a nice fast laptop. Free cell phone. Card access to the building, any time. FAST internet! Freedom to manage my own computing resources. Flexible hours. Work from home. My current project is something I suggested, and I like it.
Contrast this with the Australian experience... tailored pants & shirt at all times. 15" monitor and Pentium 66. No phone, no expenses, no after hours access, strictly 9-5. Adversarial management. SLOW internet - possibly with some kind of net nanny installed. NO software other than that approved by the half-educated empire-building IT manager allowed! And they wonder why all the programmers are leaving.
Hi,
First the gross salary is just a little part of the equation. You also have to look at the cost of life.
For example, in Silicon Valey, you will get a high salary, but you have to pay >500k for a decent house. In other part of the world you will get lower salary, but the cost of life is much lower. So in fact you can make a better living elsewhere.
Now to answer your question, in Montreal the mean salary for someone who is just out of the University is 40,000$CAN.
For people with 5 years of experience it can go from 50K to 90K ($CAN). This is relative to what technologies you have experience with and how aggressive you are when negociating your salary.
Housing prices:
Toronto: 300,000
Vancouver: 500,000
Saskatoon: 60,000
Calgary: 180,000
:-) The prairies may suck, but they are cheap to live in.
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
The Big Company Myth...
Big Companies DON'T necessarily pay you more!
If your fresh out of University, expect Fl.3500, even at the Big Companies. They usually have a 2 year new recruits program like "Young Proffessional" at CapGemini. Be very careful to enter this program. Unless you're really good, they'll keep you at that level for the two years. Always negotiate!!! They'll usually bump up the amount with a several hundred guilders. Also negotiate the (size of the) company car.
If you apply for a position at a big company and you want to earn more, try to enter via a contact who works there, or apply for a specific position. Don't enter the new recruits program!
Small companies will pay more than big companies for experiene, because there's bigger demand and they need to keep you. It also invloves less negotiation. Maybe in the long run you're better of at a big company, but that's something to decide on an individual basis.
Good Luck !
In Holland, you can expect at least fl. 3500 (before taxes) per month if you're fresh out of shool. That's about $1750. Getting a cellphone and notebook is usually no problem.
;).
If you start working at a big company, you can expect fl 5000 (US$ 2500) per month plus a company car. But you'd have to conform to that company (might be hard for die-hard geeks - they tend to love Microsoft).
If you're thirty (-something) and have lots of experience, and don't mind working hard, fl 8500 or more is usually no problem. In Holland, that kind of salary will buy you anything you want. It's about 3 times average.
Big management positions (IT, IS, ITIL management) start at fl 150k/year plus all the usual bonusses.
Remember that healthcare is standard and LOTS cheaper than in the US (that goes for all European countries).
Most salaries grow 10% per year, but this can vary as well. 20% increases are starting to become more common.
Salaries are lower in remote parts of the country (provinces like Limburg or Friesland).
And there's the occasional bonus, some companies will give you up to fl 20.000,- (before taxes) (US$ 10,000) if you stay with them for a year. But those companies are often quite clueless (they think Windows NT is the *only* server OS in the world. And your job will most probably doing VB/ASP stuff, so you don't want that anyway
As a luser-support martyr (ISP Tech Support, lately in documentation), the going rate seems to be $20-30K to start (with annual / promotional increases, of course), higher in major metropolitan areas (the Valley, SF, NYC, Boston, &c).
Top-notch coders seem to be able to command $80K and up (six figures isn't uncommon. . . makes me wish I knew PERL!)
As with every job, having experience means you can command greater compensation. After two-plus years on the job, I've conditioned my employer to add some intangibles to the job environment: tolerance to eccentricity, a certain level of buy-in to new ideas, &c.
Just remember that the full package isn't just the bottom line on your W-2, there are health insurance, 401(k), profit sharing, and any number of other forms of additional compensation to factor in. Ask at the interview what kind of total compensation the company offers, and what kinf of tenure / vesting structure exists. Some companies give health insurance after 90 days, the potential for 401(k) after 6 months, and start vesting in various things after one, three, or five years, depending. There is so much variance with these that it never hurts to ask.
For example, my company offers discounted memberships (payroll-deductible) to the local health & wellness center and free/discounted service to employees. This doesn't show up on my pay stub every other Friday, but is worth probably $40 a month.
Just remember: no amount of financial compensation will make up for a job you don't enjoy. I can speak from experience that a good job atmosphere with interesting and enjoyable work to do makes a smaller paycheck more attractive than becoming a psychotic stress-monkey at a job that makes your gut clench the instant the alarm clock goes off in the morning.
Anyone looking to hire a slightly freaky tech writer?
Rafe
V^^^^V
Rafe
Opinions expressed by the author may not actually exist in the wild.
NT Admin : $55 - 70K
UNIX Admin $65 - 85K
Oracle DBA : $65 - 120K
HTML Developer $40 - 65K
C/C++ Programmer $50 - 110K
Java Programmer $65 - 120K (very much in demand)
Network Admin : $55 - 80K
Network Design : $70 - 100K
VB Programmer $45 - 80K
PERL Programmer $45 - 75K
Project Manager $60 - 120K
Again, the range compensates for experience, and combination of skills (ie, Unix Admin with some Oracle and C knowledge would be at the 80K level) This is for full-time salaried employees. Independents or hourly types can expect anywhere from a 15-35% premium over those. These salaries are fairly valid for the Boston,DC,Phila. NYC command about 15%-30% more due to cost of living for North Jersey and NYC.
Hope this helps...
That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.
Well it just makes sense to most Americans, myself included. When you have competition to drive it, it's gotta get better in order to
compete!
No. It's gotta get more profitable to compete. A lot of people confuse "better" with "more profitable". How can I make my hospital more profitable? Charge more. Pay the doctors less. Cut corners. Only treat rich patients who can afford to pay. Get good deals from the drug companies by recommending their treatments. Open a lot of hospitals, get a monopoly and then hike prices. Does this sound like a certain software company?
Now I'm not knocking private health care (my company is kind enough to provide it for me free) but common healthcare should be free to all members of society at a good level.
Adam.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
When I moved from Paris to London, I nearly doubled my salary. I left behind me a highly concentrated urban chaos, its traffic jams, non smiling people, and a very polluted city.
However, I oversaw the following facts
I had left a badly paid job in a service consultancy company for a highly pay job in an investment bank,
the GBP is currently quite high compared to the Euro,
health service in France is free and doesn't suck (in fact I got so scared by the low quality of equipment and service in the UK that I go to France when I need to see a doctor !),
Paris is a real city, London is nothing else than a very small center with very large suburbs,
London hasn't got many movie theaters (at least compared to Paris)
I pay USD 1100 per month for a studio here in London - the same would give me a 2 bedroom flat in the center of Paris (althought the Paris market is waking up now after a ten years slump...)
transport infrastructure in the UK is a shame - roads are in bad conditions, the Tube (London subway) a nightmare and as for the trains, well, now there's an accident every few months. On the opposite, France hosts the most advanced train system in the world with high speed trains (they hold the world speed record), good highways, and the Paris subway (they call it the Metro) is efficient and inexpensive (but how dirty !!)
UK credit cards still don't use smart cards - smart cards have been widely used in France for nearly 20 years!
French law forces the employer to give 5 weeks holidays, and to pay minimum 50% of everyone's daily expenses (transport and lunch),
UK IR taxes are much higher than French ones (but in France, they have stupidly high hidden charges no one understands, so I guess it's the same),
net connexions in Paris are thru cable or ADSL - I use a 56K modem in London...
Altogether, I know that life is much better in Paris than in London - except for the Parisians. Londonners are nice and friendly if compared to Parisians. And no one speaks english in France ! (in fact they do but why should they make an effort ?)
This is a very typical tactic.. Currently the IT and IS field is flooded with "junk" employees. (All of you know what I mean!) and the employer having just went through 3 MCSE people for the IS department and fired them or let them go because they were worthless will be a bit gun shy.
Michigan generally get's you $35K to $50K but then the cost of living is dirt cheap compared to california.. A $150K home is in some areas here are beautiful and huge homes. while the same price range in the valley get's you a shed with no door.
If you call a place or email them, and ask what is the range they are looking at so you wont waste your or their time, will not tell you what they will pay DO NOT APPLY THERE!
it isnt worth the time to get through the process to the offer and they say, "Great Mr.X.. We want you to work here for $25,450.00 with no benifits" you just wasted a week or more for these idiots.