> At some point, it will be too crippled to compete with Linux. I don't mean next year, I mean 5 or ten years down the line.
It is having trouble competing now, just not in ways that you can see. For example it is getting killed in the data center.
> MS Silverlight is their planned attempt at killing off not only Adobe Flash but also all this AJAX stuff.
No, they serve different purposes. With Flash the application data is on the client. That is why Flash and Java are portability solutions, but not true Internet application solutions despite the fact that they run from a browser. In this case the web is just used as a delivery mechanism like ftp.
With Ajax the application data is on the server, so it is a true Internet solution. However it is a programming kludge. I doubt anyone thinks it is the final answer.
Why that makes it all OK then Especially a country who thinks of itself as the greatest in the world.
USA! USA! Greatest democracy in the world (when compared to Cuba and Saudi Arabia), greatest living standards (when compared to Bangladesh), greatest freedom (when compared to China), largest (when compared to the Vatican)
...they have strong reason to believe that each of those IPs represents someone illegally offering the file for download to others...
But how do they prove it? Sure they show up to court with thier own documentation, but they are hardly an impartial witness. How can they prove that they did not make it up to collect money by extortion?
...insurers can't indemnifiy insured for statutory fines...
Why not? I think anti-RIAA insurance is an excellent idea (both as a business and as a service to the community). Pre-paid legal. For a small fee if you are popped you will either be defended or your fee will be paid. Home-schoolers do this to defend against prosecution, for example.
Is there a law that prevents it, and if so can you cite it?
If your skills are needed in MY country, MY country should have the decency to accept you as one of US.
So you are suggesting that if you can get a job you should be awarded a citizenship. Is this only for highly skilled workers, or for any skill set or even no skills?
Why should only those with skills be subject to extra competition?
They are finding someone to do the same job cheaper than we are willing to. We don't have a divine right to jobs just because we are Americans.
Excellent. But why just limit it to highly skilled workers competing for my job? Why not import unskilled workers to compete for your job, too? Lets let anybody who can get a job stay. Does that work for you?
Sponsoring someone for a job isn't a trivial matter, and this firm is helping them comply with the law and do something that the company, for whatever reason, has decided that they want to do.
They are complying technically in bad faith manner which is why Congress is investigating them. Congress wants to know if they need to close a loophole.
I'd actually like to see it a bit easier for companies to sponsor people and allow them to come in legally. Why have so many hoops for legal entry for people who will have confirmed jobs when they get to the US?
Great. First of all you need to change the law.
Second, why limit it to highly skilled workers? Why not non-skilled workers to compete for your job, too? Lets just have a law that says if they can find a job here they can stay here. Fair is fair.
> Not that I agree with the lawyers, but this shouldn't be used against them. They probably get paid big bucks for the conferences and wouldn't want it just given away to the public for free.
The original video was posted to YouTube, which is where the programmer's guild got a hold of it. So there must be another reason why they do not want it to be seen...
Silly me, i thought the major drawback of web based applications was that HTML sucks for building rich applications.
HTML is far from ideal, but I think the biggest drawback with web programming is the lack of program state.
In my own open source rich internet application system NewI\O I keep the consumer friendly browser interface, but I add program state, and have a more traditional programming model that does not use HTML.
Sometimes I think it might make more sense to make a browser-like framework for programs, but built from the ground up for applications instead of static pages.
Agreed. This is the premise for my open source project NewI\O.
The web should have been left to hypertext documents. We need a new system for Internet applications. So actually I think it is a good idea to slam Opera and Mozilla for implementing JavaScript.
Next you are going to say we should not be slamming e-mail for attachments...:)
d) come up with something better that can be made cross-platform from the get-go that gives people a compelling reason to use it instead of Silverlight, rather than permanently following along a few steps behind Microsoft.
Yes! That is exactly what I am working on with my open source, cross platform NewI\O project.
The technical advantage is that it is true client/server, not client only as these other technologies are. It is not simply a download and run system. That was data can be retained on the server where it should be.
> We don't need a better Silverlight or a better Flash. We need better tools inside the framework that we already have.
Actually, I disagree here. For the reasons you sited above, I think we need to leave the web to what it was originally created for: hypertext documents. We need a new separate system for running applications. Something better than Silverlight, Flash, etc.
> The problem with your argument is that no one has even tried to make something better.
Actually I am trying to make something better. The main problem I see with Flash, Java, and now Silverlight, is that they are client systems, not client/server systems. Once the application is downloaded they are no longer talking to the server.
To see a true client/server Internet application system, see my own NewI\O system.
The biggest problems with Silverlight, Flash, Java, etc, are that they are client systems, not client/server systems. Once downloaded they are no longer talking to a server. See my own open source project NewI\O for a true client/server solution to the Internet application problem.
Actually I think users do care about portability. If there is a MS Windows program you need to run, and you have a Mac, then you care about portability.
Being able to write one app for the entire user base instead of one small segment of computer users has to be of some value. Someone can write a Cocoa app that might be beautiful, but being able to write a Cocoa app is a very specific skill (Objective C) for a relativley small market.
On the other hand if you write a NewI\O app you write it once for a huge user base (all users). NewI\O apps are way easier to write than Cocoa apps. Furthere there is no reason that NewI\O applications have to be hideously ugly. In fact, native widgets are not out of the question.
Your suggesting is a good one, but we might be able to do even better. Your suggestion solves part of the problem. However, network apps also have the promise of portability. Write the app once and it works on all platforms. With my own project we use standard messages between client and server to achieve this. For more info check out my project NewI\O.
Slashdot Mirror
Do show me the lab experiment you used to prove this. I am sure it would be quite interesting.
You proved this in the lab I suppose?
> At some point, it will be too crippled to compete with Linux. I don't mean next year, I mean 5 or ten years down the line. It is having trouble competing now, just not in ways that you can see. For example it is getting killed in the data center.
> MS Silverlight is their planned attempt at killing off not only Adobe Flash but also all this AJAX stuff.
No, they serve different purposes. With Flash the application data is on the client. That is why Flash and Java are portability solutions, but not true Internet application solutions despite the fact that they run from a browser. In this case the web is just used as a delivery mechanism like ftp.
With Ajax the application data is on the server, so it is a true Internet solution. However it is a programming kludge. I doubt anyone thinks it is the final answer.
Chris Nystrom
http://www.newio.org/
--
Je ne parle pas francais.
I find this last part hard to believe.
But how do they prove it? Sure they show up to court with thier own documentation, but they are hardly an impartial witness. How can they prove that they did not make it up to collect money by extortion?
Why not? I think anti-RIAA insurance is an excellent idea (both as a business and as a service to the community). Pre-paid legal. For a small fee if you are popped you will either be defended or your fee will be paid. Home-schoolers do this to defend against prosecution, for example.
Is there a law that prevents it, and if so can you cite it?
Thank you.
If your skills are needed in MY country, MY country should have the decency to accept you as one of US.
So you are suggesting that if you can get a job you should be awarded a citizenship. Is this only for highly skilled workers, or for any skill set or even no skills?
Why should only those with skills be subject to extra competition?
They are finding someone to do the same job cheaper than we are willing to. We don't have a divine right to jobs just because we are Americans.
Excellent. But why just limit it to highly skilled workers competing for my job? Why not import unskilled workers to compete for your job, too? Lets let anybody who can get a job stay. Does that work for you?
open borders and a welfare state are mutually exclusive.
Excellent point. This is the crux of the issue, isn't it?
Sponsoring someone for a job isn't a trivial matter, and this firm is helping them comply with the law and do something that the company, for whatever reason, has decided that they want to do.
They are complying technically in bad faith manner which is why Congress is investigating them. Congress wants to know if they need to close a loophole.
I'd actually like to see it a bit easier for companies to sponsor people and allow them to come in legally. Why have so many hoops for legal entry for people who will have confirmed jobs when they get to the US?
Great. First of all you need to change the law.
Second, why limit it to highly skilled workers? Why not non-skilled workers to compete for your job, too? Lets just have a law that says if they can find a job here they can stay here. Fair is fair.
> Not that I agree with the lawyers, but this shouldn't be used against them. They probably get paid big bucks for the conferences and wouldn't want it just given away to the public for free.
The original video was posted to YouTube, which is where the programmer's guild got a hold of it. So there must be another reason why they do not want it to be seen...
> Why shouldn't we encourage the immigration of highly skilled foreign workers to our country?
Why limit it to highly skilled workers? Why don't we encourage the immigration of the not so skilled workers to compete for your job, too?
You apprently are not a subscriber to http://www.mlb.com...live sport on the web...
TV as a separate device is obsolete. All displays are now computer displays and the network really is the computer.
HTML is far from ideal, but I think the biggest drawback with web programming is the lack of program state. In my own open source rich internet application system NewI\O I keep the consumer friendly browser interface, but I add program state, and have a more traditional programming model that does not use HTML.
Agreed. This is the premise for my open source project NewI\O.
Next you are going to say we should not be slamming e-mail for attachments... :)
Yes! That is exactly what I am working on with my open source, cross platform NewI\O project.
The technical advantage is that it is true client/server, not client only as these other technologies are. It is not simply a download and run system. That was data can be retained on the server where it should be.
Actually, I disagree here. For the reasons you sited above, I think we need to leave the web to what it was originally created for: hypertext documents. We need a new separate system for running applications. Something better than Silverlight, Flash, etc.
My own attempt is NewI\O.
Actually I am trying to make something better. The main problem I see with Flash, Java, and now Silverlight, is that they are client systems, not client/server systems. Once the application is downloaded they are no longer talking to the server.
To see a true client/server Internet application system, see my own NewI\O system.
The biggest problems with Silverlight, Flash, Java, etc, are that they are client systems, not client/server systems. Once downloaded they are no longer talking to a server. See my own open source project NewI\O for a true client/server solution to the Internet application problem.
Actually, I think people would rather own their own shows rather than rent them. I know I do.
Actually I think users do care about portability. If there is a MS Windows program you need to run, and you have a Mac, then you care about portability.
Being able to write one app for the entire user base instead of one small segment of computer users has to be of some value. Someone can write a Cocoa app that might be beautiful, but being able to write a Cocoa app is a very specific skill (Objective C) for a relativley small market.
On the other hand if you write a NewI\O app you write it once for a huge user base (all users). NewI\O apps are way easier to write than Cocoa apps. Furthere there is no reason that NewI\O applications have to be hideously ugly. In fact, native widgets are not out of the question.
Like it or not Internet apps are here, and are here to stay. As Jeremy Allison writes: "There are now no interesting non-networked applications."
Chris
Your suggesting is a good one, but we might be able to do even better. Your suggestion solves part of the problem. However, network apps also have the promise of portability. Write the app once and it works on all platforms. With my own project we use standard messages between client and server to achieve this. For more info check out my project NewI\O.
My own competitive technology is built on top of openssh. You can set up your own server at home. Check it out at http://www.newio.org.