First: the FSF isn't involved with Open Source. Please, please, please be careful about confusing that with Free Software. Most of the people on both sides of the naming issue tend to be very prickly about it.
And how does an interview with Larry Wall, who's a cool guy, turn into publicity? Chances are, someone will here the interview, be interested, and start looking into things in more depth. That's basically what happened to me, a couple of years back. ^_^
-RickHunter
Re:This is why Linux is so slow moving to the desk
on
Linux Sin Demo
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· Score: 2
Lets put it this way: Windows never works perfectly 100% right after installation. I usually have to spend about a hour (sometimes two or thre, depending on the hardware) tweaking things, installing drivers, and figuring out why something has mysteriously decided to commit suicide. Windows programs are about the same. Especially Windows games. My install cycle for a Windows game usually averages about 30 minutes, including patch hunting, driver updating, and all the other things required to play games.
Remember that most hardcore (or moderately hardcore) gamers are almost as big-time techies and perfection nuts as Linux users, and almost as diverse. No install program's going to satisfy all of them by a long shot.
I've had many problems with the stability of Xfree86, and I've had it lock the system quite hard.
Wow... You must have some very wierd hardware. Or you must be running an old version... or have something misconfigured. I'm using the newest XFree86 available through Debian 2.2, and I rarely have trouble. And I've never had it lock the system hard... In contrast to a Windows system running on this same machine, which tends to lock up at odd times for no apparent reason. Even when I'm not doing anything much with it.
Little you could do with GNOME that you couldn't do with FVWM... Like what? There's lots I can do with GNOME that I couldn't do with FVWM, and even more that KDE lets you do (although I'm not a KDE user myself). Cut-and-paste seems to work universally with few or no problems, I use a mix of keyboard and mouse (almost exactly the same as I did with Windows).
Browser-wise... If Netscape's so bad, then why not try one of the wide range of other Linux browsers available? Like Konqueror, Galleon, Mozilla, etc.
And for office suites... Have you even tried KOffice? Or some of the stuff the GNOME people are putting together? The reason MS Word import filters are so bad is because Word doesn't follow its own guidelines for pasring documents.
Yeah... I agree, Gtk is kind of a pain. Gtk-- doesn't seem too much better. The main problem, IMHO, is the documentation. The basic stuff is documented very well (in the tutorial), but advanced stuff, like fonts and styles or more obscure widget operations, has virtually no documentation that I could find.
Kind of a shame... I like the GNOME interface much better than KDE (something about the feel...) but if Gtk isn't better documented, I think they'll only wind up scaring away new developers.
Well, yes, you're right there... I was just saying that the wording of that paragraph made it sound like they weren't targeting the Microsoft user base because its the right thing to do... Only because its bigger.
I'm not saying the end result is a bad thing. (Its most definitely good - KDE (as I said) should hopefully be very good at attracting Windows users. Its a nice interface) That paragraph's wording just sounds a bit... Odd.
A very good writeup indeed. It seems to address all the major issues in a very balanced fashion. I'm not a KDE user myself (I can't stand some of the interface elements), but I think that publicity will be good for the project. Especially since KDE (from what I've used of it) seems similar enough to Windows to attract Windows users but doesn't replicate too many of the little things that makes Windows so irritating to use (yes, almost every Windows user I've talked to has found something, and often many things, about the interface to be almost painful). Hopefully, the KDE League and the GNOME Foundation will be able to work together on promotion and such, to inform people that the world outside of Windows has options other than the command-line.
The one disturbing thing I found about the letter was the paragraph where he talks about not competing with GNOME. I don't know if its just me, but it seemed like he was saying that they weren't trying to compete with GNOME only because there weren't many GNOME users, and that if there were more, they'd do everything possible to steal them away. As I said, its probably just me, but that paragraph still sounds somewhat odd.
Anyway, that's really a small detail. Good move on the part of the KDE guys, and hopefully this will alert people to the number of interface options available to Linux (and other Unix-style OSes, of course). And more options are always good.
-RickHunter
Re:That's Smart. . . but not the ONLY Advantage. .
on
On Asteroid Mining
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· Score: 3
Exactly. From what I understand, the major cost of establishing a permanent presence in space is getting it started. After a certant point, with the exception of a few things that need to be provided by earth, it becomes financially self-sustaining. Of course, then you run into the same problem as the British did with their colonies back a couple of hundred years or so.
That's another point to consider. Sure, the defaults may be good for the user for the first while they're working at the computer. But they aren't going to stay clueless forever, and eventually they'll want to start customizing things, or performing more advanced operations. In my experience, they slowly start to find that the GUI they found so wonderful when they were new users slowly becomes almost unusable because it prevents them from doing things the way they want.
Unfortunately, few ever bother to try a different OS. Kind of a shame, as I think most Windows users I know would love BeOS. I don't use it myself, but it seems to strike a good balance.
I agree! I'm a Linux user myself, but I've got a lot of friends that use BSD-style systems... Enough so that I'm going to try FreeBSD myself when I get some spare time. Even within the Linux world, there's a lot of problems with coders assuming that Linux == Red Hat, which causes me no end of pain when I want to install some software that isn't available as a Debian package.
Given that I have a computer and don't do business with Microsoft, it sort of implies that they aren't a monopoly, no doesn't it?
No, it doesn't. Even I can remember that from my grade 11 economics classes. Microsoft may not have 100% of the market, but they do have effective control over the market. There's the difference between a government-regulated monopoly and a "natural" monopoly. One gets laws to back up its control, and the other will never be albe to squash ALL competition, even if it can kill off companies that irritate it with little effort. Which actually makes the natural one slightly more dangerous to consumers, because they have loads of power and are in a precarious position they want to maintain.
Oh, you left out two other monopolies: the RIAA and MPAA. And if you expect me to believe the members of either organization compete with each other to any large degree...
Clarification of original poster's second last paragraph:
You, as a free person, have the right to listen to and enjoy whatever content you damn well please. You simply don't have the right to resell or redistribute copies of content that belongs to someone else and is protected under copyright law.
You do, however, have the right to resell a CD or whatever you've bought to someone else, provided that you turn over to them or destroy all copies you've made of it. You also have the right to make copies for backup purposes, changing to a different type of media, and various other things covered under fair use.
Hmm... Actually, I don't think I've ever seen anything on that... Do you have the option of turning over any fair use copies you've made, or must you destroy them?
I agree. I couldn't stand Ender's Shadow, and not just because of that. Not only did I not care about Bean, but the premise of the book was basically that Ender was nothing special, and everything that he thought he did that was out of the ordinary was really done by Bean. So it shifted the focus from a character I did like to one I couldn't stand.
Actually, from what (little) I've read about Freenet, something like Slashdot would be possible - albiet in an altered form. Since its much "cheaper" for a user to upload something to Freenet than it is to create and acquire hosting for a web site, Freenet itself could be used for the kind of discussion Slashdot and Kuro5hin-like sites try to achieve. And in a much more permanent form. Instead of clicking on a reply link, you write a counter-argument or suppliment to a piece by another author and upload it. If its well-written and informative, then it will presumably be passed around by lots of people and spread through Freenet. Which would also (in theory) create interest in other pieces on the same subject....
Specifically, assholes who are big names in the music industry and have lots of money to throw at the American government.:-P Although Scour died due to a bad business plan, which is what sometimes happens in the free market.
I agree about this, although there do seem to be groups attempting to promote more technological and education-related stuff online. And there's still the online gaming industry, a big monster just waiting for someone to get it mad.
Actually, I think there's an option you've got to set to get the prompt... Otherwise, you have to hit shift (left-shift, but could be right-shift too) to get it to prompt you instead of just doing the default boot.
Hmm.... Odd... I have no clue whatsoever what that MBR thing could be... Maybe its just a Debian change to LILO to notify you that its loading from the MBR or something?
Yeah, the post-file-copy stage was a bit tricky for me too, I'll admit that. Especially since some packages wanted to configure themselves based on my "set it now and fix it later" install decisions. And several prompted for things that they didn't seem to need to... But I didn't have most of the specific problems that you'd had, as I said in my prior comment. And the install was generally good, and I haven't had any problems with subsequent installs.
1) Because of the procrustean Debian install. It does walk you through each thing, which is nice. But you can't go back once you discovered you misunderstood something. And you can't go back if you fumble with your fingers. You must be perfect.
What version of Debian did you use? I've done three Potato (2.2) installs in the past month. I seem to remember that, after each step, you're presented with a menu of steps. There, you can choose to proceed to the next step, skip the next step, or any of the previous steps. (And perhaps future ones too, but I never tried)
2) Because of the X configuration module. It is an X application, which is nice. It doesn't suffer fools gladly, which is bad. If you get something wrong, you are out of luck. Maybe you can run it again after the install has completed in a broken manner.
Ahh... Again, what version of Debian? Potato installed XF86Setup, which is a graphical X configuration tool. It can be run after the install has completed, and it also lets you do things in any order you like. I had some problems with it and my mouse, but that's because I've got a very wierd mouse.
3) Because Debian comes with the lousy MBR program that sits on top of LILO. My laptop is intended to dual boot between Win98 (I get $$$ from some clients for consulting there:) and Linux. Let's just call MBR 'unfriendly' and not call names.
Strange... As far as I can determine, this install of Debian includes nothing but LILO, and doesn't write to the MBR unless you tell it to. And my root partition is hda8, with LILO installed on hda4... No problems.
6) Because Storm comes with Storm Package
Manager, a friendlier version of dselect capability. With dselect I've managed to screw up things, or not be able to prevent an installation of what I didn't want. Call it user error, but I don't make those errors or have those problems with SPM.
I'll admit that dselect isn't exactly the flashiest program in the world. Or the simplest. But after taking five minutes or so to read the help, I didn't have any problems with it. Sometimes the dependency stuff can be a bit brain-dead, but shift-q tells it to ignore dependencies and do what you say. And those situations are very rare.
Please note that I only have experience with Debian Potato (V2.2). If the one you're talking about is a different version, could you please say which one it is?
(If you don't live in the US: ) Try not to laugh too hard at our stupid corporate[-funded] laws.
More like flee in terror and try to found a free country or something. A space colony's probably your best bet. Drop a big rock on DC while you're up there, would you?;-)
Remember that the US is, in many ways, the most powerful country in the world right now, matched only by US corporations. Together, they're able to strongarm pretty much anyone into doing what they want. IIRC, even some Canadian citizens have been persecuted (successfully) under the DMCA! And then remember what the MPAA got the Norwegian police to do to Jon Johnson... And most of the places that have the strength and inclination to tell the USA to go fsck off are even less friendly to live in.
Nope, and they don't have to. Or so they think. Remember that (so they claim) you don't really own most software you buy, or any of the DVDs you might've bought recently. Unfortunately, this IS illegal, and is known as post-sale disclosure of terms. Its roughly the same as buying a car, then being told that you aren't able to open the hood and can only drive it on roads approved by the manufacturer. And (often) being told by the car salesman that you have to get your refund from the manufacturer if you've opened the door, and by the manufacturer that you have to talk to the salesman.
Slashdot Mirror
First: the FSF isn't involved with Open Source. Please, please, please be careful about confusing that with Free Software. Most of the people on both sides of the naming issue tend to be very prickly about it.
And how does an interview with Larry Wall, who's a cool guy, turn into publicity? Chances are, someone will here the interview, be interested, and start looking into things in more depth. That's basically what happened to me, a couple of years back. ^_^
-RickHunter
Lets put it this way: Windows never works perfectly 100% right after installation. I usually have to spend about a hour (sometimes two or thre, depending on the hardware) tweaking things, installing drivers, and figuring out why something has mysteriously decided to commit suicide. Windows programs are about the same. Especially Windows games. My install cycle for a Windows game usually averages about 30 minutes, including patch hunting, driver updating, and all the other things required to play games.
Remember that most hardcore (or moderately hardcore) gamers are almost as big-time techies and perfection nuts as Linux users, and almost as diverse. No install program's going to satisfy all of them by a long shot.
-RickHunter
I've had many problems with the stability of Xfree86, and I've had it lock the system quite hard.
Wow... You must have some very wierd hardware. Or you must be running an old version... or have something misconfigured. I'm using the newest XFree86 available through Debian 2.2, and I rarely have trouble. And I've never had it lock the system hard... In contrast to a Windows system running on this same machine, which tends to lock up at odd times for no apparent reason. Even when I'm not doing anything much with it.
Little you could do with GNOME that you couldn't do with FVWM... Like what? There's lots I can do with GNOME that I couldn't do with FVWM, and even more that KDE lets you do (although I'm not a KDE user myself). Cut-and-paste seems to work universally with few or no problems, I use a mix of keyboard and mouse (almost exactly the same as I did with Windows).
Browser-wise... If Netscape's so bad, then why not try one of the wide range of other Linux browsers available? Like Konqueror, Galleon, Mozilla, etc.
And for office suites... Have you even tried KOffice? Or some of the stuff the GNOME people are putting together? The reason MS Word import filters are so bad is because Word doesn't follow its own guidelines for pasring documents.
-RickHunter
Yeah... I agree, Gtk is kind of a pain. Gtk-- doesn't seem too much better. The main problem, IMHO, is the documentation. The basic stuff is documented very well (in the tutorial), but advanced stuff, like fonts and styles or more obscure widget operations, has virtually no documentation that I could find.
Kind of a shame... I like the GNOME interface much better than KDE (something about the feel...) but if Gtk isn't better documented, I think they'll only wind up scaring away new developers.
-RickHunter
Well, yes, you're right there... I was just saying that the wording of that paragraph made it sound like they weren't targeting the Microsoft user base because its the right thing to do... Only because its bigger.
I'm not saying the end result is a bad thing. (Its most definitely good - KDE (as I said) should hopefully be very good at attracting Windows users. Its a nice interface) That paragraph's wording just sounds a bit... Odd.
-RickHunter
A very good writeup indeed. It seems to address all the major issues in a very balanced fashion. I'm not a KDE user myself (I can't stand some of the interface elements), but I think that publicity will be good for the project. Especially since KDE (from what I've used of it) seems similar enough to Windows to attract Windows users but doesn't replicate too many of the little things that makes Windows so irritating to use (yes, almost every Windows user I've talked to has found something, and often many things, about the interface to be almost painful). Hopefully, the KDE League and the GNOME Foundation will be able to work together on promotion and such, to inform people that the world outside of Windows has options other than the command-line.
The one disturbing thing I found about the letter was the paragraph where he talks about not competing with GNOME. I don't know if its just me, but it seemed like he was saying that they weren't trying to compete with GNOME only because there weren't many GNOME users, and that if there were more, they'd do everything possible to steal them away. As I said, its probably just me, but that paragraph still sounds somewhat odd.
Anyway, that's really a small detail. Good move on the part of the KDE guys, and hopefully this will alert people to the number of interface options available to Linux (and other Unix-style OSes, of course). And more options are always good.
-RickHunter
Exactly. From what I understand, the major cost of establishing a permanent presence in space is getting it started. After a certant point, with the exception of a few things that need to be provided by earth, it becomes financially self-sustaining. Of course, then you run into the same problem as the British did with their colonies back a couple of hundred years or so.
-RickHunter
That's another point to consider. Sure, the defaults may be good for the user for the first while they're working at the computer. But they aren't going to stay clueless forever, and eventually they'll want to start customizing things, or performing more advanced operations. In my experience, they slowly start to find that the GUI they found so wonderful when they were new users slowly becomes almost unusable because it prevents them from doing things the way they want.
Unfortunately, few ever bother to try a different OS. Kind of a shame, as I think most Windows users I know would love BeOS. I don't use it myself, but it seems to strike a good balance.
-RickHunter
I agree! I'm a Linux user myself, but I've got a lot of friends that use BSD-style systems... Enough so that I'm going to try FreeBSD myself when I get some spare time. Even within the Linux world, there's a lot of problems with coders assuming that Linux == Red Hat, which causes me no end of pain when I want to install some software that isn't available as a Debian package.
-RickHunter
Given that I have a computer and don't do business with Microsoft, it sort of implies that they aren't a monopoly, no doesn't it?
No, it doesn't. Even I can remember that from my grade 11 economics classes. Microsoft may not have 100% of the market, but they do have effective control over the market. There's the difference between a government-regulated monopoly and a "natural" monopoly. One gets laws to back up its control, and the other will never be albe to squash ALL competition, even if it can kill off companies that irritate it with little effort. Which actually makes the natural one slightly more dangerous to consumers, because they have loads of power and are in a precarious position they want to maintain.
Oh, you left out two other monopolies: the RIAA and MPAA. And if you expect me to believe the members of either organization compete with each other to any large degree...
-RickHunter
Or maybe even...
Linuxnewbie.org?
-RickHunter
Clarification of original poster's second last paragraph:
You, as a free person, have the right to listen to and enjoy whatever content you damn well please. You simply don't have the right to resell or redistribute copies of content that belongs to someone else and is protected under copyright law.
You do, however, have the right to resell a CD or whatever you've bought to someone else, provided that you turn over to them or destroy all copies you've made of it. You also have the right to make copies for backup purposes, changing to a different type of media, and various other things covered under fair use.
Hmm... Actually, I don't think I've ever seen anything on that... Do you have the option of turning over any fair use copies you've made, or must you destroy them?
-RickHunter
But isn't that exactly what they do when they rule a law to be unconstitutional? (Excuse my ignorance)
-RickHunter
Mr. Kaplan, I award you one troll moderation.
What's taken you so long? The rest of us took one look at the original ruling and did exactly the same thing. ;-)
-RickHunter
I agree. I couldn't stand Ender's Shadow, and not just because of that. Not only did I not care about Bean, but the premise of the book was basically that Ender was nothing special, and everything that he thought he did that was out of the ordinary was really done by Bean. So it shifted the focus from a character I did like to one I couldn't stand.
-RickHunter
Oh, great. He's onto us!
*picks up cell phone* Yeah, I need five black helecopters dispatched to... What did you say your address was again? /dev/null, right...
-RickHunter
Actually, from what (little) I've read about Freenet, something like Slashdot would be possible - albiet in an altered form. Since its much "cheaper" for a user to upload something to Freenet than it is to create and acquire hosting for a web site, Freenet itself could be used for the kind of discussion Slashdot and Kuro5hin-like sites try to achieve. And in a much more permanent form. Instead of clicking on a reply link, you write a counter-argument or suppliment to a piece by another author and upload it. If its well-written and informative, then it will presumably be passed around by lots of people and spread through Freenet. Which would also (in theory) create interest in other pieces on the same subject....
-RickHunter
Specifically, assholes who are big names in the music industry and have lots of money to throw at the American government. :-P Although Scour died due to a bad business plan, which is what sometimes happens in the free market.
-RickHunter
I agree about this, although there do seem to be groups attempting to promote more technological and education-related stuff online. And there's still the online gaming industry, a big monster just waiting for someone to get it mad.
-RickHunter
Actually, I think there's an option you've got to set to get the prompt... Otherwise, you have to hit shift (left-shift, but could be right-shift too) to get it to prompt you instead of just doing the default boot.
-RickHunter
Hmm.... Odd... I have no clue whatsoever what that MBR thing could be... Maybe its just a Debian change to LILO to notify you that its loading from the MBR or something?
Yeah, the post-file-copy stage was a bit tricky for me too, I'll admit that. Especially since some packages wanted to configure themselves based on my "set it now and fix it later" install decisions. And several prompted for things that they didn't seem to need to... But I didn't have most of the specific problems that you'd had, as I said in my prior comment. And the install was generally good, and I haven't had any problems with subsequent installs.
-RickHunter
1) Because of the procrustean Debian install. It does walk you through each thing, which is nice. But you can't go back once you discovered you misunderstood something. And you can't go back if you fumble with your fingers. You must be perfect.
What version of Debian did you use? I've done three Potato (2.2) installs in the past month. I seem to remember that, after each step, you're presented with a menu of steps. There, you can choose to proceed to the next step, skip the next step, or any of the previous steps. (And perhaps future ones too, but I never tried)
2) Because of the X configuration module. It is an X application, which is nice. It doesn't suffer fools gladly, which is bad. If you get something wrong, you are out of luck. Maybe you can run it again after the install has completed in a broken manner.
Ahh... Again, what version of Debian? Potato installed XF86Setup, which is a graphical X configuration tool. It can be run after the install has completed, and it also lets you do things in any order you like. I had some problems with it and my mouse, but that's because I've got a very wierd mouse.
3) Because Debian comes with the lousy MBR program that sits on top of LILO. My laptop is intended to dual boot between Win98 (I get $$$ from some clients for consulting there :) and Linux. Let's just call MBR 'unfriendly' and not call names.
Strange... As far as I can determine, this install of Debian includes nothing but LILO, and doesn't write to the MBR unless you tell it to. And my root partition is hda8, with LILO installed on hda4... No problems.
6) Because Storm comes with Storm Package Manager, a friendlier version of dselect capability. With dselect I've managed to screw up things, or not be able to prevent an installation of what I didn't want. Call it user error, but I don't make those errors or have those problems with SPM.
I'll admit that dselect isn't exactly the flashiest program in the world. Or the simplest. But after taking five minutes or so to read the help, I didn't have any problems with it. Sometimes the dependency stuff can be a bit brain-dead, but shift-q tells it to ignore dependencies and do what you say. And those situations are very rare.
Please note that I only have experience with Debian Potato (V2.2). If the one you're talking about is a different version, could you please say which one it is?
-RickHunter
Even death is a bit too long... The original fourteen-year period, with a possible additional fourteen-year renewal, was more than long enough.
-RickHunter
(If you don't live in the US: ) Try not to laugh too hard at our stupid corporate[-funded] laws.
More like flee in terror and try to found a free country or something. A space colony's probably your best bet. Drop a big rock on DC while you're up there, would you? ;-)
Remember that the US is, in many ways, the most powerful country in the world right now, matched only by US corporations. Together, they're able to strongarm pretty much anyone into doing what they want. IIRC, even some Canadian citizens have been persecuted (successfully) under the DMCA! And then remember what the MPAA got the Norwegian police to do to Jon Johnson... And most of the places that have the strength and inclination to tell the USA to go fsck off are even less friendly to live in.
-RickHunter
Nope, and they don't have to. Or so they think. Remember that (so they claim) you don't really own most software you buy, or any of the DVDs you might've bought recently. Unfortunately, this IS illegal, and is known as post-sale disclosure of terms. Its roughly the same as buying a car, then being told that you aren't able to open the hood and can only drive it on roads approved by the manufacturer. And (often) being told by the car salesman that you have to get your refund from the manufacturer if you've opened the door, and by the manufacturer that you have to talk to the salesman.
-RickHunter