Probably not... but I bet some of them think of it this way;^)
Re:Time for environment integration
on
GNU Emacs 21
·
· Score: 1
is time for editors to become better integrated with their environments
Right! Let's hope that somebody integrates Gnome or KDE into Emacs (shouldn't be so difficult to re-code everithing in elisp). I look forward to have panel, applets and other goodies in my preferred editor.
This is just an advertising gimmick; nothing new is being advertised (winex is already available, they are just putting it in a pretty package with some windows game).
There are people out there that do not use the computers as 'general purpose' machine but for a specific purpose, and always the same. And many PC are sold expecially for a purpose: Games. So it quite logic to build a distribution to address this need (if Linux is ready for that is another question).
Linux distributors starts to realize that the 'package and support' business model pays more when you address vertical market segments. Want a web server/firewall/game machine/database engine/whatever ? Just insert the CD, follow installation instructions and you are done.
Linux and open-source software, because of flexibility and aboundance of tools, are quite good to build vertical solutions. Moreover, this allows distributors to sell basically the same things in more than a shrink-wrapped box, sort of like car manifacturers uses the same engine/components for more than one car.
If these pre-built solutions are valid and the price is right, most people will buy them, instead of try to build their own out of pieces downloaded from the Net.
to turn a buffer overflow of a non-privileged nework daemon into a remote root exploit;
to allow unprivileged users to sniff the LAN;
to allow 'viruses' (.i.e. executables from an unknown source which a luser run without checking) to have full access to your machine
This is a serious bug (though not a new kind of bug: as you said, local exploit have been with us for years), because it undermines the basics of Linux security model (every user stays in its box).
Assuming is true, jou just made it 50% easier to find out who _she_ is. Maybe more, 'cause woman teechies this good are not common (uhm, maybe we have to rethink about it).
big company sees that a piece of OSS covers 99%
of its requirements;
big company hires some developers to work to the remaining 1% and release all the 100% as open source.
This could happen (and maybe did happen sometime), at least if the company doesn't see the software as strategic for its business (I guess web servers and office products aren't strategic for a car manifacturer). The problem is that before that, someone should have developed the 99% of the software and released its source. And sometime the 1% of developing a piece of software might still costs more than paying licences for an equivalent close source software.
Like it or not, bugs are a fact of life in all software products.
The problem is that the current way of selling software (the mass-produced version, at least) does not account for this. The consumer thinks to buy a finished products corresponding to some quality standard (DISCLAIMER clauses notwithstanding), but actually it is only buying in a 'support service' which uses the software as a tool. Worse than that
:
there is no warrantee about how long the company will keep the support service going.
there is no formal way to verify that a perceived software failure is actually a bug.
even if a software failure is proven, there is no law to force the company to release the patch (remember the DISCLAIMER clause?). There is only the company good-will to keep good PR with potential customers.
So, if software cannot be sold as a product (because 'bugs are inherent in software') at least it should be honestly sold as a service
(which similar condition and warrantees one gets in a contract for custom software development).
The articles are usually full of keywords like considering, debating, testing.
# translate --cynic-mode "XXX is considering the swith to Linux"
Translation: XXX is asking Microsoft for a rebate
Re:Sun was optimistic. So were we(the OSS supporte
on
No GNOME For Solaris 9
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
KDE and Gnome both feel too disjointed to really make the Unix desktop feel like a computer that non-technically minded people would use.
But here we are talking of _Solaris_, which is not exactly an OS for 'non-technically minded people'.
Rather, the question is: would GNOME or KDE be the best desktop for the kind of people which buy and uses Sun workstations?
My personal answer is: not anymore. The 1.x versions were quite apt (especially kde, IMO, which borrowed several things from CDE). The 2.x versions (present for KDE, near future for Gnome), with their full complement of gadgets, are now much more user-desktop oriented for that (though using selected components only is still an option).
A more effective user interface for scientific and engineering workstation, IMO, could be something like Window Maker + a lightweight file manager (e.g. ROX). Or maybe XFCE, which also offer an easier transition path for CDE users (though I never liked CDE look-and-feel).
To make a Java desktop, Sun should first develop a real compiler for Java, which generates nice old executables and dll (I _do_ hope GCC 3.x improves enough on this to become a standard ).
I can't see the ten processes or so which composes a desktop each running its own JVM ANd make them threads is not a solution, IMO). When I run more than 2 or three java apps , my Sun WS starts trashing for lack of memory.
And what were you using it for? there are plenty of graphical file managers, including gmc - the gnome standard one.
Actually, GMC was the standard file manager up to 1.2. In 1.4, is one of the packages of the so-called 'fifth-toe', i.e. add-ons (and reading mc-devel list, it looks like they are soon going to drop the graphical version of mc).
The standard file manager for GNOME is Nautilus, now, which may be a good choice for middle-to-high-end home desktop, but not for most of the uses for which SUN workstations are purchased ( like scientific workstation in engineering facilities and control centres).
There are compiled ximian-gnome packages for solaris, but (it seems) only for 2.7 and 2.8.
For 2.6 you can try to compile it yourself. It's a day-long operation (especially if you compile it in the wrong order:-( ), but then you can share it with other people:-).
The gcc and gtk+ library (and maybe more) you can get from www.sunfreeware.com, in forrm of pre-compiled solaris packages.
Q : Why I can't XXX in KDE? I can in windows.
A: Because:
Not enough users have asked for it;
Not enough developers are interested in implementing it.
In general, because KDE developers aren't interested in competing with Windows. Their attitude is just to 'make a better KDE'(to paraphrase Linus about Linux), for themselves and their users.
Q: do the issues you have listed improve 'functionality, asthetics, stability and user-friendliness'?
A: They obviously do, for you. They don't, for me. You see, I'm quite minimalist about my GUI nowadays: I don't even use KDE (or GNOME) anymore. I can figure out how to make title bold. I know how to bind keystrokes to my most used applications (so I don't even have to touch the mouse) and I prefer to personalize the menus myself instead of having the computer to do it ( computers are notoriously bad-asses at doing human-related activities).
Anyway, this is just me. But then, what you said is 'just you'. KDE is a success because it has a large user base, and they do not seem disappointed. Neither you nor me belongs to this user base: so, stick with Windows XP (or whatever), while I will stick with my collection of oddly-assorted (but highly functional for me) GUI mini-tools.
One more question: do you feel strange when you tip in a restaurant?
Yes, I do. Or at least I did when I traveled for the first time in USofA (here at home, the gratuity
is part of the regular bill; tips are only used in
extra-luxury places, where I don't have the money to go).
Anyway, back on topic, I would pay a small amount (say up to $100 per year) to get someting like a newsletter containing LWD html pages, even though they are published on the web the same day. And, maybe, an yearly summary on CD.
Exactly. This is the way it has always worked with OSS. Did you ever read the disclaimers at the end of each OSS licence?
Since the beginning, OSS users pay their software doing testing, documentation and, if they can, code.
You know what? Many people are happy with that. Because they discovered that they stll end up with a better product that most commercial stuff, at a lower price.
The reason for this is that, given current software complexity, alpha-level tests,done in laboratory, can only do so much [and often not even that because smart managers cuts test budgets to save their ass].
That is wy _every_ commercial company does beta-testing (e.g. asks user to test their product for them).
In OSS, beta testing is simply done putting out a new release (sometime dubbed 'beta' or 'unstable', but you shold always expect potential troubles).
Whoever don't like this is free to pay whatever company they want for doing their own Test or QA
on whatever software they choose to use.
To an outsider, it would look like the answer is Yes:
AC e LT source trees are diverging on issues sometime techical sometime 'political'. There will ever be a full merge?
The 2.5 tree is not coming out, and the 2.4 is merging huge and 'revolutionary' patches.
It seems to me that the model which worked so well for 2.2/2.3 series is not working anymore. In a true bazar fashion, a new model is already trying to define itself, and the AC and LT tree may be part of it. Maybe it is just time to admit it and try to define the new model a bit more clearly, if possible.
Er..what system is that? It can understand naturally spoken (or typed) English?
I 'use' a very similar system, since 196x:-?
Yes, it can understand naturally spoken english, if not too mangled by an accent (you may have to talk slowly sometime). Almost no problem with written english. It can also speak (somewhat broken) english.
It was hard to program,however. The creation of basic firmware took several years. Now things are a bit better. The understanding of English was a later add-on, and like all patches is far from perfection. But I know of of similar(?) systems with built-in English speach recognition ( or even Chinese speak recognition).
My system is a good one, I think. But lately it started to run out of RAM (and expansions slot were not in designer's mind, apparently). I have to unload non-essential information from main memory and rely on secondary storage device or even other systems to retrieve it.
And I'm afraid it got a virus, since lately spends too much time in silly activities like posting on/., instead of doing proper work.
I think that this is primarily because desktop environments have taken over.
Not completely. 'Simple' WMs still have a 'niche market' (if this term has any meaning in OSS) with people wich use relatively old hardware(and wasn't Linux praised for never obsoleting your hardware?), or for people which prefer snappy response to thight integration.
Like myself: I still use (and hope to use for another couple of years) a Pentium 150 MHz laptop
with 80 MB [the maximum it can handle].
Already had performance problems with the 1.x versions of KDE/Gnome. I'm not even going to try the 2.x ones.My current set-up is Window Maker(I like better Sawmill micro-gui theme, but WM gives me the 'dockapps' bonus), coupled with ROX-Filer (with panel).
Not the best integrated of desktops, maybe. But I like it so much that I recently ditched Gnome (which I quite like anyway) also on my 800 MHz Athlon desktop, to try the same setup. From the increase in responsiveness (especially but not only the start/up of apps), I don't think I'll go back.
So, thanks to all the developers of 'simple' window managers and other little tools which allows me (and I believe many others according to what I read on the Net) to build my own dektop interface.
Hi Mom,
you know you said I work too much with that Linux thing? Well, soon it will be over. They will not let me use it anymore, because they say I could use it to make illegal copies of CDs or electronic books.
No, I don't do that. Never did. But they don't care. They say they want to be sure.
Therefore, we better ask uncle Bob if he as a place for me in his shop, because I'm not sure I can keep my current work.And even if I can, I would not enjoy it anymore, since I'm not allowed to _understand_, but only to _comply_.
What can we do? Not much. Write our congressman? Maybe (BTW, did you vote last time?)
I say, why don't we stop buying Disney things (yes Mom, they are behind this).And stop watching their movies, also - yes, also the ones on free tv, we pay that by watching their ads. And you could return that ticket for DisneyWorld you bought for little Ann.
What. You _love_ disney movies? (as a matter of fact, I do, too). And what we say to little Ann, which has waited for _years_ for that ticket?
Well, then, maybe uncle Bob's shop won't be so bad.At least, I won't work so much anymore.
PGP can be used by people living in countries with oppresive goverments to communicate in a manner that will not place them in jeopardy for their ideals and principals.
But, using crypto is a clear indication that you have something to hide. That, in oppressive regime, could be enough to put yourself in trouble (they don't have to proof anything, suspect is enough).
Steganography(sp?) (toghethere with crypto) may be a better tool in such cases.
Cripto alone is useful in _democratic_ regimes, e.g. to protect your business agains corrupted government 'surveillance' officials that could sell your secrets to competition. Or agains being tagged as 'communist' or 'gay' or 'lover of pink fluffy things' in some government database, and thus being illegally discriminated on your job.
And not only the government: without crypto, anyone with enough means could know everithyng you do on-line.
Slashdot Mirror
Probably not ... but I bet some of them think of it this way ;^)
Right! Let's hope that somebody integrates Gnome or KDE into Emacs (shouldn't be so difficult to re-code everithing in elisp). I look forward to have panel, applets and other goodies in my preferred editor.
This is just an advertising gimmick; nothing new is being advertised (winex is already available, they are just putting it in a pretty package with some windows game).
There are people out there that do not use the computers as 'general purpose' machine but for a specific purpose, and always the same. And many PC are sold expecially for a purpose: Games. So it quite logic to build a distribution to address this need (if Linux is ready for that is another question).
Linux distributors starts to realize that the 'package and support' business model pays more when you address vertical market segments. Want a web server/firewall/game machine/database engine/whatever ? Just insert the CD, follow installation instructions and you are done.
Linux and open-source software, because of flexibility and aboundance of tools, are quite good to build vertical solutions. Moreover, this allows distributors to sell basically the same things in more than a shrink-wrapped box, sort of like car manifacturers uses the same engine/components for more than one car.
If these pre-built solutions are valid and the price is right, most people will buy them, instead of try to build their own out of pieces downloaded from the Net.
- to turn a buffer overflow of a non-privileged nework daemon into a remote root exploit;
- to allow unprivileged users to sniff the LAN;
- to allow 'viruses' (.i.e. executables from an unknown source which a luser run without checking) to have full access to your machine
This is a serious bug (though not a new kind of bug: as you said, local exploit have been with us for years), because it undermines the basics of Linux security model (every user stays in its box).Assuming is true, jou just made it 50% easier to find out who _she_ is. Maybe more, 'cause woman teechies this good are not common (uhm, maybe we have to rethink about it).
- :
- big company sees that a piece of OSS covers 99%
of its requirements;
- big company hires some developers to work to the remaining 1% and release all the 100% as open source.
This could happen (and maybe did happen sometime), at least if the company doesn't see the software as strategic for its business (I guess web servers and office products aren't strategic for a car manifacturer). The problem is that before that, someone should have developed the 99% of the software and released its source. And sometime the 1% of developing a piece of software might still costs more than paying licences for an equivalent close source software.The problem is that the current way of selling software (the mass-produced version, at least) does not account for this. The consumer thinks to buy a finished products corresponding to some quality standard (DISCLAIMER clauses notwithstanding), but actually it is only buying in a 'support service' which uses the software as a tool. Worse than that
- :
- there is no warrantee about how long the company will keep the support service going.
- there is no formal way to verify that a perceived software failure is actually a bug.
- even if a software failure is proven, there is no law to force the company to release the patch (remember the DISCLAIMER clause?). There is only the company good-will to keep good PR with potential customers.
So, if software cannot be sold as a product (because 'bugs are inherent in software') at least it should be honestly sold as a service (which similar condition and warrantees one gets in a contract for custom software development).# translate --cynic-mode "XXX is considering the swith to Linux"
Translation: XXX is asking Microsoft for a rebate
But here we are talking of _Solaris_, which is not exactly an OS for 'non-technically minded people'.
Rather, the question is: would GNOME or KDE be the best desktop for the kind of people which buy and uses Sun workstations?
My personal answer is: not anymore. The 1.x versions were quite apt (especially kde, IMO, which borrowed several things from CDE). The 2.x versions (present for KDE, near future for Gnome), with their full complement of gadgets, are now much more user-desktop oriented for that (though using selected components only is still an option).
A more effective user interface for scientific and engineering workstation, IMO, could be something like Window Maker + a lightweight file manager (e.g. ROX). Or maybe XFCE, which also offer an easier transition path for CDE users (though I never liked CDE look-and-feel).
I can't see the ten processes or so which composes a desktop each running its own JVM ANd make them threads is not a solution, IMO). When I run more than 2 or three java apps , my Sun WS starts trashing for lack of memory.
Actually, GMC was the standard file manager up to 1.2. In 1.4, is one of the packages of the so-called 'fifth-toe', i.e. add-ons (and reading mc-devel list, it looks like they are soon going to drop the graphical version of mc).
The standard file manager for GNOME is Nautilus, now, which may be a good choice for middle-to-high-end home desktop, but not for most of the uses for which SUN workstations are purchased ( like scientific workstation in engineering facilities and control centres).
For 2.6 you can try to compile it yourself. It's a day-long operation (especially if you compile it in the wrong order
The gcc and gtk+ library (and maybe more) you can get from www.sunfreeware.com, in forrm of pre-compiled solaris packages.
I don't know about 'most'. But enough like KDE to make it a succesfull project, IMO.
A: Because
In general, because KDE developers aren't interested in competing with Windows. Their attitude is just to 'make a better KDE'(to paraphrase Linus about Linux), for themselves and their users.
Q: do the issues you have listed improve 'functionality, asthetics, stability and user-friendliness'?
A: They obviously do, for you. They don't, for me. You see, I'm quite minimalist about my GUI nowadays: I don't even use KDE (or GNOME) anymore. I can figure out how to make title bold. I know how to bind keystrokes to my most used applications (so I don't even have to touch the mouse) and I prefer to personalize the menus myself instead of having the computer to do it ( computers are notoriously bad-asses at doing human-related activities).
Anyway, this is just me. But then, what you said is 'just you'. KDE is a success because it has a large user base, and they do not seem disappointed. Neither you nor me belongs to this user base: so, stick with Windows XP (or whatever), while I will stick with my collection of oddly-assorted (but highly functional for me) GUI mini-tools.
I think the secret meaning for K is Kaiser ... but it would be politically incorrect to state it out openly :-)
Maybe both. ;^)
If you can't dream, you will achieve nothing
Yes, I do. Or at least I did when I traveled for the first time in USofA (here at home, the gratuity is part of the regular bill; tips are only used in extra-luxury places, where I don't have the money to go).
Anyway, back on topic, I would pay a small amount (say up to $100 per year) to get someting like a newsletter containing LWD html pages, even though they are published on the web the same day. And, maybe, an yearly summary on CD.
I say subscription. It's clear as water : I want your service, you ask me X money: if I value the service enough, I pay. Otherwise, I don't.
I've always felt strange when I have to hand a tip. It's less streightforward.
From the KML, as reported elsewere in this thread:
On the other hand, the good news is that I'll open 2.5.x RSN, just because Alan is so much better at maintaining things ;)
Linus
Either you alredy knew that, or you are a real cassandra. In the last case, would you mind give me some hints on the next horse race? :-)
Since the beginning, OSS users pay their software doing testing, documentation and, if they can, code.
You know what? Many people are happy with that. Because they discovered that they stll end up with a better product that most commercial stuff, at a lower price.
The reason for this is that, given current software complexity, alpha-level tests,done in laboratory, can only do so much [and often not even that because smart managers cuts test budgets to save their ass].
That is wy _every_ commercial company does beta-testing (e.g. asks user to test their product for them).
In OSS, beta testing is simply done putting out a new release (sometime dubbed 'beta' or 'unstable', but you shold always expect potential troubles).
Whoever don't like this is free to pay whatever company they want for doing their own Test or QA on whatever software they choose to use.
To an outsider, it would look like the answer is Yes:
It seems to me that the model which worked so well for 2.2/2.3 series is not working anymore. In a true bazar fashion, a new model is already trying to define itself, and the AC and LT tree may be part of it. Maybe it is just time to admit it and try to define the new model a bit more clearly, if possible.
I 'use' a very similar system, since 196x :-?
Yes, it can understand naturally spoken english, if not too mangled by an accent (you may have to talk slowly sometime). Almost no problem with written english. It can also speak (somewhat broken) english.
It was hard to program,however. The creation of basic firmware took several years. Now things are a bit better. The understanding of English was a later add-on, and like all patches is far from perfection. But I know of of similar(?) systems with built-in English speach recognition ( or even Chinese speak recognition).
My system is a good one, I think. But lately it started to run out of RAM (and expansions slot were not in designer's mind, apparently). I have to unload non-essential information from main memory and rely on secondary storage device or even other systems to retrieve it.
And I'm afraid it got a virus, since lately spends too much time in silly activities like posting on /., instead of doing proper work.
Not completely. 'Simple' WMs still have a 'niche market' (if this term has any meaning in OSS) with people wich use relatively old hardware(and wasn't Linux praised for never obsoleting your hardware?), or for people which prefer snappy response to thight integration.
Like myself: I still use (and hope to use for another couple of years) a Pentium 150 MHz laptop with 80 MB [the maximum it can handle]. Already had performance problems with the 1.x versions of KDE/Gnome. I'm not even going to try the 2.x ones.My current set-up is Window Maker(I like better Sawmill micro-gui theme, but WM gives me the 'dockapps' bonus), coupled with ROX-Filer (with panel).
Not the best integrated of desktops, maybe. But I like it so much that I recently ditched Gnome (which I quite like anyway) also on my 800 MHz Athlon desktop, to try the same setup. From the increase in responsiveness (especially but not only the start/up of apps), I don't think I'll go back.
So, thanks to all the developers of 'simple' window managers and other little tools which allows me (and I believe many others according to what I read on the Net) to build my own dektop interface.
Hi Mom,
you know you said I work too much with that Linux thing? Well, soon it will be over. They will not let me use it anymore, because they say I could use it to make illegal copies of CDs or electronic books.
No, I don't do that. Never did. But they don't care. They say they want to be sure.
Therefore, we better ask uncle Bob if he as a place for me in his shop, because I'm not sure I can keep my current work.And even if I can, I would not enjoy it anymore, since I'm not allowed to _understand_, but only to _comply_.
What can we do? Not much. Write our congressman? Maybe (BTW, did you vote last time?)
I say, why don't we stop buying Disney things (yes Mom, they are behind this).And stop watching their movies, also - yes, also the ones on free tv, we pay that by watching their ads. And you could return that ticket for DisneyWorld you bought for little Ann.
What. You _love_ disney movies? (as a matter of fact, I do, too). And what we say to little Ann, which has waited for _years_ for that ticket?
Well, then, maybe uncle Bob's shop won't be so bad.At least, I won't work so much anymore.
But, using crypto is a clear indication that you have something to hide. That, in oppressive regime, could be enough to put yourself in trouble (they don't have to proof anything, suspect is enough).
Steganography(sp?) (toghethere with crypto) may be a better tool in such cases.
Cripto alone is useful in _democratic_ regimes, e.g. to protect your business agains corrupted government 'surveillance' officials that could sell your secrets to competition. Or agains being tagged as 'communist' or 'gay' or 'lover of pink fluffy things' in some government database, and thus being illegally discriminated on your job.
And not only the government: without crypto, anyone with enough means could know everithyng you do on-line.