I have a feeling I have come off as saying the MESA libs are worthless and shouldnt be maintained.
I wholeheartedly apologize for that. It is really not my intention.
I even used those libs on my PowerVR Kyro II to play quake and was super greatful they were maintained. This was a viable option for around 2 years for me. And for phones and other wierd hardware they are absolutely neccissary.
But in my defense I am looking at this from the perspective of an old school PC gamer. No touch screens, and you buy hardware that works good with your games. I've been using NVIDIA for a long time now, and I am very greatful they provide solid OpenGL support with their binaries.
I would love for Mesa3d's GL support to be as up-to-date as well. But as a game developer targeting the PC market I would never even consider developing for it.
This I agree with completely, and I see google teatering. And with headlines like "Gives up". I know that might not even be google speaking. But to tell people you've given up is horrible =)
I sorta feel like as an American they've given up on us to. But I hope, we, or google, or someone else finds out a better way to implement filtering. I am all for filtering and I totally agree, when I search for something I don't want 1000 commercial porn sites blocking me from finding a real answer. But that power should always be placed in our hands. Not hidden from us.
I agree they have no choice in China. I think in that case the best they could do would provide secure services people in China could access through torproject or VPNs. And to close shop as a Chinese company doesnt mean they have to refuse that market.
My rant was I think flawed as it is tried to point out though that China is not the only place this is starting to happen. And google seems ok with by literally implementing features into their own site.
Google is actively participating in the fragmentation of the global web. Their search is not fair and equal across all audiences. Its porn now. But mark my words it will be politics soon, if there isnt some subtle chilling effect already.
What happens when only governments with clones of googles accurate unfiltered search database are the only ones with access to all information. Do we start segregating people because of their views on what should and shouldnt be on the net? How do people know that its ok to do it in ways other then missionary if they can't find out all the wonderful ways we can literally screw eachother without jumping through hoops. Its an enlightening process that fundementalists need not be protected from in my opinion.
Anyway the Big point I'm trying to get at is people in sweeden who automaticly route to google.se get more accurate results then the average american who doesnt bother to check what their browser is doing. You cant get the same results through America's portal even if you set your setting to "not filter" its not the same. Its illusion. And google is helping to make the illusion that when you search for boobs on the net, thats what you get even if you set your filter low. When its not.
By creating this double standard Google is further seperating the elite from the non-elite. They are literally making people dumb by being authoritarian and permiting information to be managed in a deceptive way like this. Right now its just "sexual" content more or less but I don't think anyone with the attitude that its ok to go this far is trustworthy.
I'm seriously wondering what I will be able to google in the next 10 years. What search engine can I go to. I've tried things like Ixquick etc... I doubt they'll have that much impact though. They scrape from google, but do they scrape from unfiltered results or what.
In the mean time I'm going to be fuming mad about the general impact on peoples understanding of what is out there. People aught to be able to find out about everything and shouldnt have to circumvent google or anything else. Shit should not be this obfuscated and Orwellian.
And seriously I know you didn't have a friendly agreeing post to give back to me, but I appreciate your dialog that you even took the time to respond and tell me why you thought I was wrong.
Its fine to let them be and not force our western individualism on them until it starts bleeding across borders and affecting us, which it really is starting to do. I don't think this is giong to stop with China, the sings of the times are there for those that care.
And to be clear, google has the power to provide unfiltered results and let the government figure out a way to block things, not cater to them. That is all I expect, its trivial to revert their code back to what it was.
I hate to say this but anyone who runs something as vast, large, and influencial as Google has a responsability to look after the interests of their fellow man and the technologies they rely on. Otherwise they are directly contributing to the dystopian future we are headed towards.
If google doesn't do something about the internet, it will loose potential profit. It will be harming it self as well.
It takes allot of bravery for me to come here and give my trolly rant knowing I will be pissing off allot of people. But thats the same damn thing I expect the LEADERS of our worlds biggest and most influencial institutions to be doing. Corporation, UN, School, University, Sciencists at JPL, anybody who is the gatekeeper to this much power or information, and knowledge.
I can't cite some old Mark Twain, or Goerge Washington, or Jefferson, or any other supposed hero of freedom and liberty and commerce and all that. But I'm sure I'm not the first ignorant peasent to wake up and go... Why the fuck are we doing this to eachother for the sake of personal individual survival, or group survival.
Martin Luther King sure as hell didn't worry that damn much about his own skin, he knew he would piss allot of people off with his rants.
Some of the native OS virtualization in linux and mac is really good. But I wouldn't dare say its workable for 3d games like wow.
I wouldn't have thought about it years ago, and now I wouldn't do it for WoW, because Wine does a better job then any VM could do that I know of.
I think it stands to be said (again) that one of the biggest reasons it has not been a big issue to port something like WoW is because Wine works for the technically inclined.
The feeling is mutual. I played on project 1999.org's regular everquest emu server since launch, then on several pvp emulators for pre-velious everquest. The rigid disipline and mental apptitude to play wow endgame has decreased from hardcore nerd>everyone. There is no longer 2 classes of player and they throw everyone in the same pot to boil now hehe.
I kinda liked WoW for its more casual aspect after playing EQ hardcore for so many years. When they made things just simpler I was very happy to pay for a few more months and toy around in all the changed old world content. But I breazed through it all to fast. And that is probalby why I quit again and did not stay around longer.
Though I think it has allot to do with my personal taste in games changing quite a bit too. So Its hard to say around my own biases. I don't play EQemu anymore because it consumes 8+ hrs a day usually to catch up from a fresh character. I'm bored of my mains so thats basically the only option to keep it fun.
Google have totally abandoned the princeples of freedom, liberty, knowledge, and enlightenment. Google caved and catered to the lowest common denominator here in America and they're not interested in resisting China or any of our thuggish 3 letter agencies here, or anyone.
If you wan't check out the differences between safe search on google.se and google.com from a US ip address, just google something and see what I'm talking about. Google does not care about accurate and unbiased and clean and unfiltered search results.
Google does not want to protect knowledge as a whole, they are perfectly happy to cater to whatever they want to dictate or someone else does so they dont get harrased legally or politically, so they can have one step up on everyone who does not cater to the fear and ignorance of censorship.
Google are victims of political correctness and the evil they do is to victimize its users because they won't stand up for what the internet has become and should be for, free exchange of ideas and information.
Slackware is still the distro to install the defaults are pretty good and its easy to unzip a few tar.gz's or use the slackpackaging system of which theres now an aptitude like repository for. And you can still get away with frankensteining your distro with like 3 different versions of software its pretty resiliant to hacking and pretty hackable.
I sorta meant both, the kittens would learn from the sharks who live on the forums and the sharks would have entertainment for awhile until the kittens figured out they were out of league trying to troll sharks who have seen flame wars since 1980.
Downranking spells was a mechanic the game wasn't really designed around in general, maybe one dev had an idea for a few spells for their class. It is also in-efficent and a boring mechanic when you get mudflation going on after 6 expansions, trust me, its not so bad now in WoW but everquest is a nightmare like this.
As for endurance fights they fleshed out the spell lines and made use of save your as talents for high hps healing vs longer re-use talents for efficient healing, the mechanic of being efficient is still there.
I agree tradeskills got nerfed pretty hard as far as alchemy, and its not just alchemy.
You can still tank with a healadin with some skill for allot of the game, if not to the endgame instances, but it requires teamwork its not something you can force on pugs. I do miss the hybrid builds, I had a hybrid combat/sub rogue that was pretty good. And its sure is a sacrifice the designers had to make to clean things up and fix the exploity buggy metagaming.
As for quest turn ins, that annoys me too I like immersion over conveinience.
Last time I played heroics for about a month in cataclysm you could tell the difference between runners who used communication and threat management and those who didnt. The players your talking about could sometimes barely scrape by, allot of times they'd just split up and re-queue. I had carried a few bad groups through some instances as a pro-healer. The groups that did have skill really showed it, we had very cool runs. I think blizz saw this and is why they wanted to implement the challenge system, like timed runs.
Thats right, and denying change for nostalgia would have surely killed wow far worse then what bliz did to put a little bit of extra life in it.
And lots of blogs because I have done allot of research on what to use to make my own game under linux or across platforms. Personally I would recommend SDL over most libraries because its really fully featured.
Almost every programming library has its quirks, I remember having to deal with bitmaps on windows and the nightmare that was when we ran into an issue with a certain function that was broke because the graphics driver didn't support it. The graphics card company said its the OS problem, microsoft said it was the graphics card problem.
I definately wouldn't say the SDL is immature or bad. Its just as good as any others and I would say better documented since its open source;p
Troubles I had that made me consider just recompiling were with the ptrace issue described here: http://www.codeweavers.com/support/wiki/linux/faq/ubuntu1204 but that was even before that bug report and not for codeweavers just regular wine, way back in like 2004 or something. I don't quite remember the details. I know it was slackware and I didn't have the knowledge at the time to fix it without editing the kernals configs, patching the module and recompiling, I learned alot about setting up all the other fancy tweaks I could in my kernal that day though so it was no big deal. I may have been able to just recompile the individual module, but I'm not sure on that at the time it was all all or nothing fix I think for me. Depending on the kernal flags set it can be tricky to get patched modules to work right. But like I said its like a decade gone by. I think its much easier to deal with that stuff now probably.
However I can completely understand from a developer perspective the maddening fustration that they might have tweaking their software around issues like that. Which crop up allot more frequently in linux. And allot of times tweaking your software is not the solution, fixing it in the kernal, module, OS, or graphics lib is the solution.
I come here because I rarely sometimes get some really cool insight into the topics at hand and links to places like kuro5hin.org. Happens like twice a year, and the rest of the time I am either just parroting my sentiment into the crowd or debating some philosophical or technical point of view (usually badly). But hey its not a total waste of time. Though the over-all quality of discourse I think on the net in general has decreased. And allot of the old-timers really don't get along with the young newbies. I would say I fall somewhere in the middle and so get into trouble with both lol.
U-mad-bro? if u wanted to downmod me u shouldnt post. This account has experienced bad Karma before and will again. I don't have time to speak perfect professor speak for every trivial bit of random chitter chatter I spew forth on the nets.
Also I have had to troubleshoot in userspace issues with these libs over-writing eachother back to back, if you read the script files that come with the NVIDIA sh installer and understand the hassle we usto go through on linux to sort this out u know what i'm talking about.
Theyre useful I suppose for X11 and the framebuffer. But the argument that they are a pain to develop for and that they are a factor in gaming development is FUD.
http://www.ryzom.com/en/ did this. And disregard my reply at shareware I didnt explode your comment (damn abbevation didnt capture the 2cnd line). I rather liked Ryzom for the short time I played it. It didn't get my full support though because I didn't have the money for it and was just checking it out for curiousities sake, but it was very close to WoW as far as MMO's go. There's probably a few other examples out there.
I don't think its a distribution model thats really had serious acedemic thought in the circles of EA and Vivendi and Activision and such. I think it would gain more traction if it was a FOSS client for more then just Linux though, linux users tend to be more frugal people in general. Hence the Obvious trolling of "Freetards".
There are a few that contribute allot in the form of code or other assets though back to the companies they "freeload from".
In some cases the ad-revenue for some sites alone that support linux are worth it.
I'm not 100% sure what financing model your talking about (shareware?) but I don't think its a genre specific issue. Shareware would work better for puzzlers, platformers, top down shooters, and other casual games that just pop up and say please enter $5 here for the next 5 levels. Zuma, Bubbleshooter and its clones are shareware which I personally had to re-aquire for someone of their website who lost it because these games do have a dedicated following amoungst certain demographics. I think it would actually work the best for any game with a real story plot that could suck you in, like "Beneath a Steel Sky" or Myst types. Think, The Longest Journey, or one of those. I bought them anyway, but I would have bought them sooner if I had played a demo and been sucked in for 1 hr.
Changing the boards that the chips are on is not neccarily a bad thing. I'm really happy with my poorly rated on the marketplace, but power efficient video cards from NVIDIA, my biggest actual gripe with them is their bad support of 2d shaders for older games like Baldur's Gate and PS:Torment, and Theif3 which all require a dll patch to run right in the home directy of the games. But its still not a big deal.
Slashdot Mirror
*work
I swear to whatever you want I will work on summing up my thoughts in one post for the future ;)
AFAIK libs like SDL just worth with either Mesa3d or Nvidia, or whatever intel decides to use.
I'll even admit this might be the wrong attitude.
I have a feeling I have come off as saying the MESA libs are worthless and shouldnt be maintained.
I wholeheartedly apologize for that. It is really not my intention.
I even used those libs on my PowerVR Kyro II to play quake and was super greatful they were maintained. This was a viable option for around 2 years for me. And for phones and other wierd hardware they are absolutely neccissary.
But in my defense I am looking at this from the perspective of an old school PC gamer. No touch screens, and you buy hardware that works good with your games. I've been using NVIDIA for a long time now, and I am very greatful they provide solid OpenGL support with their binaries.
I would love for Mesa3d's GL support to be as up-to-date as well. But as a game developer targeting the PC market I would never even consider developing for it.
This I agree with completely, and I see google teatering. And with headlines like "Gives up". I know that might not even be google speaking. But to tell people you've given up is horrible =)
I sorta feel like as an American they've given up on us to. But I hope, we, or google, or someone else finds out a better way to implement filtering. I am all for filtering and I totally agree, when I search for something I don't want 1000 commercial porn sites blocking me from finding a real answer. But that power should always be placed in our hands. Not hidden from us.
I agree they have no choice in China. I think in that case the best they could do would provide secure services people in China could access through torproject or VPNs. And to close shop as a Chinese company doesnt mean they have to refuse that market.
My rant was I think flawed as it is tried to point out though that China is not the only place this is starting to happen. And google seems ok with by literally implementing features into their own site.
http://www.webpronews.com/google-preventing-u-s-users-from-disabling-safesearch-2012-12
http://searchengineland.com/google-updates-safesearch-filter-in-image-search-142330
Google is actively participating in the fragmentation of the global web. Their search is not fair and equal across all audiences. Its porn now. But mark my words it will be politics soon, if there isnt some subtle chilling effect already.
What happens when only governments with clones of googles accurate unfiltered search database are the only ones with access to all information. Do we start segregating people because of their views on what should and shouldnt be on the net? How do people know that its ok to do it in ways other then missionary if they can't find out all the wonderful ways we can literally screw eachother without jumping through hoops. Its an enlightening process that fundementalists need not be protected from in my opinion.
Anyway the Big point I'm trying to get at is people in sweeden who automaticly route to google.se get more accurate results then the average american who doesnt bother to check what their browser is doing. You cant get the same results through America's portal even if you set your setting to "not filter" its not the same. Its illusion. And google is helping to make the illusion that when you search for boobs on the net, thats what you get even if you set your filter low. When its not.
By creating this double standard Google is further seperating the elite from the non-elite. They are literally making people dumb by being authoritarian and permiting information to be managed in a deceptive way like this. Right now its just "sexual" content more or less but I don't think anyone with the attitude that its ok to go this far is trustworthy.
I'm seriously wondering what I will be able to google in the next 10 years. What search engine can I go to. I've tried things like Ixquick etc... I doubt they'll have that much impact though. They scrape from google, but do they scrape from unfiltered results or what.
In the mean time I'm going to be fuming mad about the general impact on peoples understanding of what is out there. People aught to be able to find out about everything and shouldnt have to circumvent google or anything else. Shit should not be this obfuscated and Orwellian.
And seriously I know you didn't have a friendly agreeing post to give back to me, but I appreciate your dialog that you even took the time to respond and tell me why you thought I was wrong.
Its fine to let them be and not force our western individualism on them until it starts bleeding across borders and affecting us, which it really is starting to do. I don't think this is giong to stop with China, the sings of the times are there for those that care.
And to be clear, google has the power to provide unfiltered results and let the government figure out a way to block things, not cater to them. That is all I expect, its trivial to revert their code back to what it was.
I hate to say this but anyone who runs something as vast, large, and influencial as Google has a responsability to look after the interests of their fellow man and the technologies they rely on. Otherwise they are directly contributing to the dystopian future we are headed towards.
If google doesn't do something about the internet, it will loose potential profit. It will be harming it self as well.
It takes allot of bravery for me to come here and give my trolly rant knowing I will be pissing off allot of people. But thats the same damn thing I expect the LEADERS of our worlds biggest and most influencial institutions to be doing. Corporation, UN, School, University, Sciencists at JPL, anybody who is the gatekeeper to this much power or information, and knowledge.
I can't cite some old Mark Twain, or Goerge Washington, or Jefferson, or any other supposed hero of freedom and liberty and commerce and all that. But I'm sure I'm not the first ignorant peasent to wake up and go... Why the fuck are we doing this to eachother for the sake of personal individual survival, or group survival.
Martin Luther King sure as hell didn't worry that damn much about his own skin, he knew he would piss allot of people off with his rants.
Some of the native OS virtualization in linux and mac is really good. But I wouldn't dare say its workable for 3d games like wow.
I wouldn't have thought about it years ago, and now I wouldn't do it for WoW, because Wine does a better job then any VM could do that I know of.
I think it stands to be said (again) that one of the biggest reasons it has not been a big issue to port something like WoW is because Wine works for the technically inclined.
The feeling is mutual. I played on project 1999 .org's regular everquest emu server since launch, then on several pvp emulators for pre-velious everquest. The rigid disipline and mental apptitude to play wow endgame has decreased from hardcore nerd>everyone. There is no longer 2 classes of player and they throw everyone in the same pot to boil now hehe.
I kinda liked WoW for its more casual aspect after playing EQ hardcore for so many years. When they made things just simpler I was very happy to pay for a few more months and toy around in all the changed old world content. But I breazed through it all to fast. And that is probalby why I quit again and did not stay around longer.
Though I think it has allot to do with my personal taste in games changing quite a bit too. So Its hard to say around my own biases. I don't play EQemu anymore because it consumes 8+ hrs a day usually to catch up from a fresh character. I'm bored of my mains so thats basically the only option to keep it fun.
Google have totally abandoned the princeples of freedom, liberty, knowledge, and enlightenment. Google caved and catered to the lowest common denominator here in America and they're not interested in resisting China or any of our thuggish 3 letter agencies here, or anyone.
If you wan't check out the differences between safe search on google.se and google.com from a US ip address, just google something and see what I'm talking about. Google does not care about accurate and unbiased and clean and unfiltered search results.
Google does not want to protect knowledge as a whole, they are perfectly happy to cater to whatever they want to dictate or someone else does so they dont get harrased legally or politically, so they can have one step up on everyone who does not cater to the fear and ignorance of censorship.
Google are victims of political correctness and the evil they do is to victimize its users because they won't stand up for what the internet has become and should be for, free exchange of ideas and information.
Slackware is still the distro to install the defaults are pretty good and its easy to unzip a few tar.gz's or use the slackpackaging system of which theres now an aptitude like repository for. And you can still get away with frankensteining your distro with like 3 different versions of software its pretty resiliant to hacking and pretty hackable.
I sorta meant both, the kittens would learn from the sharks who live on the forums and the sharks would have entertainment for awhile until the kittens figured out they were out of league trying to troll sharks who have seen flame wars since 1980.
Downranking spells was a mechanic the game wasn't really designed around in general, maybe one dev had an idea for a few spells for their class. It is also in-efficent and a boring mechanic when you get mudflation going on after 6 expansions, trust me, its not so bad now in WoW but everquest is a nightmare like this.
As for endurance fights they fleshed out the spell lines and made use of save your as talents for high hps healing vs longer re-use talents for efficient healing, the mechanic of being efficient is still there.
I agree tradeskills got nerfed pretty hard as far as alchemy, and its not just alchemy.
You can still tank with a healadin with some skill for allot of the game, if not to the endgame instances, but it requires teamwork its not something you can force on pugs. I do miss the hybrid builds, I had a hybrid combat/sub rogue that was pretty good. And its sure is a sacrifice the designers had to make to clean things up and fix the exploity buggy metagaming.
As for quest turn ins, that annoys me too I like immersion over conveinience.
Last time I played heroics for about a month in cataclysm you could tell the difference between runners who used communication and threat management and those who didnt. The players your talking about could sometimes barely scrape by, allot of times they'd just split up and re-queue. I had carried a few bad groups through some instances as a pro-healer. The groups that did have skill really showed it, we had very cool runs. I think blizz saw this and is why they wanted to implement the challenge system, like timed runs.
Thats right, and denying change for nostalgia would have surely killed wow far worse then what bliz did to put a little bit of extra life in it.
I speak from a user perspective and second hand information from developers of games I love.
Sources: the now defunct http://web.archive.org/web/20110224114004/http://happypenguin.org/
Tarn Adams,
Many youtube video's
And lots of blogs because I have done allot of research on what to use to make my own game under linux or across platforms. Personally I would recommend SDL over most libraries because its really fully featured.
Almost every programming library has its quirks, I remember having to deal with bitmaps on windows and the nightmare that was when we ran into an issue with a certain function that was broke because the graphics driver didn't support it. The graphics card company said its the OS problem, microsoft said it was the graphics card problem.
I definately wouldn't say the SDL is immature or bad. Its just as good as any others and I would say better documented since its open source ;p
Troubles I had that made me consider just recompiling were with the ptrace issue described here: http://www.codeweavers.com/support/wiki/linux/faq/ubuntu1204 but that was even before that bug report and not for codeweavers just regular wine, way back in like 2004 or something. I don't quite remember the details. I know it was slackware and I didn't have the knowledge at the time to fix it without editing the kernals configs, patching the module and recompiling, I learned alot about setting up all the other fancy tweaks I could in my kernal that day though so it was no big deal. I may have been able to just recompile the individual module, but I'm not sure on that at the time it was all all or nothing fix I think for me. Depending on the kernal flags set it can be tricky to get patched modules to work right. But like I said its like a decade gone by. I think its much easier to deal with that stuff now probably.
However I can completely understand from a developer perspective the maddening fustration that they might have tweaking their software around issues like that. Which crop up allot more frequently in linux. And allot of times tweaking your software is not the solution, fixing it in the kernal, module, OS, or graphics lib is the solution.
I come here because I rarely sometimes get some really cool insight into the topics at hand and links to places like kuro5hin.org. Happens like twice a year, and the rest of the time I am either just parroting my sentiment into the crowd or debating some philosophical or technical point of view (usually badly). But hey its not a total waste of time. Though the over-all quality of discourse I think on the net in general has decreased. And allot of the old-timers really don't get along with the young newbies. I would say I fall somewhere in the middle and so get into trouble with both lol.
U-mad-bro? if u wanted to downmod me u shouldnt post. This account has experienced bad Karma before and will again. I don't have time to speak perfect professor speak for every trivial bit of random chitter chatter I spew forth on the nets.
Yep I concatonated you into U conciously.
Also I have had to troubleshoot in userspace issues with these libs over-writing eachother back to back, if you read the script files that come with the NVIDIA sh installer and understand the hassle we usto go through on linux to sort this out u know what i'm talking about.
Its no big deal now-adways it simply works.
If your talking about these guys, http://www.mesa3d.org/relnotes-9.0.1.html supporting the FOSS drivers, i'm pretty sure NVIDIA's stuff bypasses them entirely.
Theyre useful I suppose for X11 and the framebuffer. But the argument that they are a pain to develop for and that they are a factor in gaming development is FUD.
http://www.ryzom.com/en/ did this. And disregard my reply at shareware I didnt explode your comment (damn abbevation didnt capture the 2cnd line). I rather liked Ryzom for the short time I played it. It didn't get my full support though because I didn't have the money for it and was just checking it out for curiousities sake, but it was very close to WoW as far as MMO's go. There's probably a few other examples out there.
I don't think its a distribution model thats really had serious acedemic thought in the circles of EA and Vivendi and Activision and such. I think it would gain more traction if it was a FOSS client for more then just Linux though, linux users tend to be more frugal people in general. Hence the Obvious trolling of "Freetards".
There are a few that contribute allot in the form of code or other assets though back to the companies they "freeload from".
In some cases the ad-revenue for some sites alone that support linux are worth it.
I'm not 100% sure what financing model your talking about (shareware?) but I don't think its a genre specific issue. Shareware would work better for puzzlers, platformers, top down shooters, and other casual games that just pop up and say please enter $5 here for the next 5 levels. Zuma, Bubbleshooter and its clones are shareware which I personally had to re-aquire for someone of their website who lost it because these games do have a dedicated following amoungst certain demographics. I think it would actually work the best for any game with a real story plot that could suck you in, like "Beneath a Steel Sky" or Myst types. Think, The Longest Journey, or one of those. I bought them anyway, but I would have bought them sooner if I had played a demo and been sucked in for 1 hr.
Changing the boards that the chips are on is not neccarily a bad thing. I'm really happy with my poorly rated on the marketplace, but power efficient video cards from NVIDIA, my biggest actual gripe with them is their bad support of 2d shaders for older games like Baldur's Gate and PS:Torment, and Theif3 which all require a dll patch to run right in the home directy of the games. But its still not a big deal.