This is not the only thing Israel are doing. Bulldozing homes? Racist segregation? Shooting at children who dare to throw stones at the police?
Police have also stood steady in shower of rocks for hours without moving. Lets see your sources so we can better see what you are talking about.
This is a joke. The sanctions will only be lifted when the UN is satisfied that they are not developing weapons - but there is no way to prove a negative, hence this gives carte blanche to continue the sanctions forever.
Well we'll never know at the rate that Saddam is complying so far now will we. As it stands he has not allowed the inspectors to ever investigate the plants that were actualy named in the accords. He's not winning friends and influencing people with that maneuver is he.
Don't believe me - read www.zmag.org And you say USA and Israeli journalism is biased?
We went over this in another thread, It seems your taking the word of counterpunch.org. Heres the quote
CNN's videotape of Palestinians supposedly dancing in the streets of a West Bank town. CounterPuncher Marcio A.V. Carvalho at the state university of Campinas in Brazil tells us that he and his colleagues had compared this tape with one from 1991 showing Palestinian cheering, and found them to be identical.
They should produce the tape, not quote the hearsay of of someone far down in Brazil.
"Congressmen telling people what they should do"
In which I think is a GOOD THING(tm) becuase when I know what they are wanting to do I can tell them if I agree or disagree.
On that list of your war mongers (or should I say conjerers) is, Ted Kennedy, Dianne Feinstiene, etc... I don't think you could pick a more left wing draft-card burning, "lets talk it out" set of people.
Maybe I am right, and the people are screaming for what Congress should do in such an uniform loud voice that they can't go against it. That would be a reverse flow of power than the one you are suggesting and much more probable.
I would like to agree with you. However here is the rub...
The irony is that during the Cold War, the Muslim Brotherhood was supported by the West to fight Communism and as a result, they joined the battle against the then Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But, not even the Americans knew what they were helping create.
That is from the first article you refered to. The next article is even more telling...
That was a turning point, for the regime could no longer deny accusations that it was harbouring top terror suspects including Osama bin Laden, the man suspected of masterminding the blasts that killed over 200 people in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam last year.
(note: Emphasis added, but I didn't put that misspelling in there, but I do in my own comments.)
So where do you think they got that training again?
Since when on slashdot does a call for evidence make a post a troll. Its a way to weed out trolls, not be one. If he has evidence let him back it up, otherwise his accusation stands empty and unwarranted.
Toppling civilian buildings, and killing family members and neighbors does not automagically allow people to see how and why the situation is to be dealt with. You imply that just because it's on TV, we can find out who's really responsible from watching NBC'S 24/7 coverage? How many people were so blank and innocent with opinion until news came on and rid them of their moral oblivion? A whole country?
Which news channel anchor is advocating war against Bin Laden? Did President Bush even mention that name in any of his speaches?
Your urge to become a politician is futile, I'm afraid.
I agree on your choice of efforts, however we *do* have a government that is capable of being toppled from within. Even more so than the USSR, and in the end it was changed from within, not from without. In contrast A whole generation of hippies and grass roots activism could not stop a war in a small asian country.
I heard the conspiracy of covering up the thousands upon thousands dead in Panama also. I even saw a video showing maybe 100 casualties all in all (claiming the piles to be thousands.)
In the end however I was largely unconvinced. Maybe you could provide some more evidence? BTW, Panama has been a happier, prosperous *democracy* since then that even was given control of the Panama Canal.
However maybe when we get bombed to oblivian for our crimes we can all go live in the hemp utopia where we have all the nutritious food, strong rugged clothing, paper and feul all from a renewable nitrogen fixing resource!
No wonder certain people look forward to the end of civilization.
What this magical "American Public" thinks right now is immaterial because their views are based entirely on the biased jingoistic crap on the mass media.
You don't think it is based on someone toppling civilian buildings, and killing family members and neighbors?
Understanding comes from cultural exchange where both sides may choose thier representation.
I'm all for cutting out these fenatical middle men that seem to be speaking up for Islam, and learning directly from them. I think the previous posters perscribed remedy would actualy allow them to portray themselves more and clearer. After all that is what Katz is describing what the Internet did for this news event. People were able to describe their own reactions, and happenings.
He might just not mentioned that, but I would anticipate it as a very welcome and warranted side effect.
Well now the whole area has a lot in common then. Just replace most of the "Palestinians" with "Israelis" and you have an average article in www.jpost.com *sigh*. My brother pointed out something interesting. Why is it only the Western Islamic and Muslim leaders that condemn the trade center attacks as against their religion? (there was an excellent post by an American-Arab about this.) It most definately is. Jihad is only for people oppressed into not following their religion by the government. It definately allows for tolerance and love for people in its own borders.
Remember that Bin Laden is exiled from Saudi Arabia becuase he thought the American presence was a violation of Holy Land. He seems to have no religious founding for that, so we dig up our own rationalization for him anyway. People in America that picked up news paper some stories who think they then know what is going on. Anyone ever track down those 5000 Egyptian women who were shipped to S.A.supply the Soldiers needs during Desert Storm? That was all over the Arab world presses at the time.
I was on the side of the poor victims of American 500-pound-guerilla-ism, and in many ways still am. But I've learned something in the mean time, and have since grown up.
1) We are responsible for the Govt's actions. They did it for us. We say "we want cheap oil" and we say "we want cheap beef." The Government that wants to stay in power just listens and obeys like a humble a-moral robot.
2) Every two bit johny-come-lately to power down there realizes there is much to be gained by listening to their people who look with envy on the prosperity of America. Heck, even Mexico feels the same way. Its easy to look across the atlantic and blame all their troubles on those two towers where world trade happens and they think they get shortchanged. That perspective can twist many events that really are more benign. That perspective twisting is something called hatred.
So all in all, I take what I hear from both sides with a grain of salt. Meanwhile I look to get into the government becuase the only real change will come from within. Not from a plane flying into a building. Also I plan to be nice to Arabs so that my judgement doesn't get clouded by fear, hatred or jealousy.
Becuase in the end, aside from a very few admirable people that I see actively doing something from what they've learned about our secret government, I find that I can lump everyone that starts complaining about American Imperialism into my round "Complainers" file.
And I definately lump people who take their own inadequacy and hatred and jealousy as excuses for destruction as no better than a child who throws a rock through the t.v. becuase his/her parents won't let them watch Barney. Doing something does not mean destroying things for attention. Ghandi and MLK showed us a better way.
Tantrums do not get a sympathetic ear in my experience.
Oh yes, one more thing. The images of Palestinians celebrating in Israel you have seen on the news are most likely fake. In a manner of speaking, anyway. They are from 1991 and unrelated to anything going on currently.
I call your bluff...
Re:The views of a Muslim in NY
on
More WTC News
·
· Score: 1
On a related note, here is the word as I have it from SLC relayed by my EQP. This isn't to be taken as religious agrandizing, or competition. Mearly a bulliten that applies to many readers of slashdot.
[Message...]
As a further note,I bring a message from the Bishop which has in turn been received from the General Authorities of the Church.
1. We are asked to pray for the victims of the terrorist attack that occurred on Tuesday.
2. We are asked to reach out to Muslim friends/neighbors/acquaintances to ensure they know of our love toward them and to not participate in any kind of hatred or discrimination against them.
3. As noted below in Ron's note, there will be a special Fast this Sunday for the victims and their families. Fast offering donations should be made on the Humanitarian Aid line of the tithing/offerings receipt. Please indicate 9-11 on the slip and this money will be dedicated to assisting the victims of the disaster.
Please ensure that you have contacted every family you Home Teach by this evening.
[Ron's message]...
Here's a link to the message from the First Presidency about Sunday's fast.
Re:there's an argument to be made....
on
More On Tragedy
·
· Score: 2
hmmm your logic sounds like... if I drink a gallon of gasoline I die, therefore, if I died then I must have drunken a gallon of gasoline.
But just as there are many reasons for death there are many reasons for unrest and this outlash. Theres also many reasons a three year old takes a rock and throws it through a TV set.
And thats exactly what is going on, they are lashing at authority they don't agree with. "Mommy won't take me to the store to buy guns to fight the Israelies, I'm going to scratch out her picture."
Whether or not it the policy is fair depends on more than if someone is screaming and kicking or not. However mindless destruction becuase they don't like what is going on is unanimously agreed as wrong. See the difference?
One question got me thinking, how can this intelligence account for itself?
I'm not a creator of universes but one of its simple mechanics is exemplified in the question "Can God create a Rock he cannot lift?"
Its a simple logic question, we have only three elements; God, a Universe and a Rock.
We assume the following attributes,
God: Can do Anything,
Universe: place for things to happen
Rock: Something to do by lifting.
Why this excersize? becuase we get to create our own universe and god. In a way we get to play god. Lets see what happens to our simple little universe.
Two things can happen. By definition god can do anything so he can create the rock. But what happens to God when he does? He ceases to be god becuase he can no longer do anything. I suppose the Universe he created goes in to havok also.
So usualy we assume that something else happens other than creating that Rock. If god never creates that rock, he remains a god.
So in this display of personal will, purpose and intelligence we see something interesting. A creator is also confined (by free will) to the purpose of his/her creation. We already know this as the saying "You can't have your cake and eat it too" or "you can't create a universe and do whatever you want."
Such a shame, and such is life. So how does intelligence account for its own creation? At least in this simple example we see that there is an intelligence at work even in the possibility of viable universes. The way universes have to be made shows an order and design. Or in otherwords there must be an intelligence and purpose (and free will I think we just showed) even behind intelligence.
It can go without end like that, but I think its at least logical to conclude that it is there. I'm reminded of the use in many theological text from the East, and from recent texts from not so far away of god using the word "eternity" in plural. From there I'm afraid the veil is drawn and I can't see past it to find an origion, intelligence clings to intelligence.
Slashdot Mirror
You know you keep complaining about the sanctions against Iraq.
I'd love to agree with you but here's my problem. Iraq is the home of many empires because of its own natural recources. Maybe you should just fess up that Saddam is a crappy leader if he can't feed his nation.
Sanctions *only* mean we don't do business with him. It does not mean that we steal food from children, poison food supplies, etc... In fact the if that were true than the US would be violating the sanctions! In fact it could be said that Russia holding up the shipment of supplies if anyone.
This is not the only thing Israel are doing. Bulldozing homes? Racist segregation? Shooting at children who dare to throw stones at the police?
Police have also stood steady in shower of rocks for hours without moving. Lets see your sources so we can better see what you are talking about.
This is a joke. The sanctions will only be lifted when the UN is satisfied that they are not developing weapons - but there is no way to prove a negative, hence this gives carte blanche to continue the sanctions forever.
Well we'll never know at the rate that Saddam is complying so far now will we. As it stands he has not allowed the inspectors to ever investigate the plants that were actualy named in the accords. He's not winning friends and influencing people with that maneuver is he.
Don't believe me - read www.zmag.org
And you say USA and Israeli journalism is biased?
We went over this in another thread, It seems your taking the word of counterpunch.org. Heres the quote
CNN's videotape of Palestinians supposedly dancing in the streets of a West Bank town. CounterPuncher Marcio A.V. Carvalho at the state university of Campinas in Brazil tells us that he and his colleagues had compared this tape with one from 1991 showing Palestinian cheering, and found them to be identical.
They should produce the tape, not quote the hearsay of of someone far down in Brazil.
Then you should say...
"Congressmen telling people what they should do"
In which I think is a GOOD THING(tm) becuase when I know what they are wanting to do I can tell them if I agree or disagree.
On that list of your war mongers (or should I say conjerers) is, Ted Kennedy, Dianne Feinstiene, etc... I don't think you could pick a more left wing draft-card burning, "lets talk it out" set of people.
Maybe I am right, and the people are screaming for what Congress should do in such an uniform loud voice that they can't go against it. That would be a reverse flow of power than the one you are suggesting and much more probable.
oops, that should read "...the next paragraph from the same article is even more telling..."
I would like to agree with you. However here is the rub...
The irony is that during the Cold War, the Muslim Brotherhood was supported by the West to fight Communism and as a result, they joined the battle against the then Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But, not even the Americans knew what they were helping create.
That is from the first article you refered to. The next article is even more telling...
That was a turning point, for the regime could no longer deny accusations that it was harbouring top terror suspects including Osama bin Laden, the man suspected of masterminding the blasts that killed over 200 people in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam last year.
(note: Emphasis added, but I didn't put that misspelling in there, but I do in my own comments.)
So where do you think they got that training again?
Since when on slashdot does a call for evidence make a post a troll. Its a way to weed out trolls, not be one. If he has evidence let him back it up, otherwise his accusation stands empty and unwarranted.
Toppling civilian buildings, and killing family members and neighbors does not automagically allow people to see how and why the situation is to be dealt with. You imply that just because it's on TV, we can find out who's really responsible from watching NBC'S 24/7 coverage?
How many people were so blank and innocent with opinion until news came on and rid them of their moral oblivion? A whole country?
Which news channel anchor is advocating war against Bin Laden? Did President Bush even mention that name in any of his speaches?
Your urge to become a politician is futile, I'm afraid.
I agree on your choice of efforts, however we *do* have a government that is capable of being toppled from within. Even more so than the USSR, and in the end it was changed from within, not from without. In contrast A whole generation of hippies and grass roots activism could not stop a war in a small asian country.
You listen to Dead Kennedy's also? cool.
I heard the conspiracy of covering up the thousands upon thousands dead in Panama also. I even saw a video showing maybe 100 casualties all in all (claiming the piles to be thousands.)
In the end however I was largely unconvinced. Maybe you could provide some more evidence? BTW, Panama has been a happier, prosperous *democracy* since then that even was given control of the Panama Canal.
However maybe when we get bombed to oblivian for our crimes we can all go live in the hemp utopia where we have all the nutritious food, strong rugged clothing, paper and feul all from a renewable nitrogen fixing resource!
No wonder certain people look forward to the end of civilization.
Ha, I knew it was you.
In the words of Tonto...
What do you mean we, whiteman?
Yeah, he should have taken a page from the US's book and bombed hospitals and schools. Done wonders for us.
I call your bluff, name one time that the US targeted a civilian education or medicinal establishments.
What this magical "American Public" thinks right now is immaterial because their views are based entirely on the biased jingoistic crap on the mass media.
You don't think it is based on someone toppling civilian buildings, and killing family members and neighbors?
Thanks I appreciate it. Now if they could only produce the tape...
www.jpost.com for one.
And the atrocities are plenty.
Understanding comes from cultural exchange where both sides may choose thier representation.
I'm all for cutting out these fenatical middle men that seem to be speaking up for Islam, and learning directly from them. I think the previous posters perscribed remedy would actualy allow them to portray themselves more and clearer. After all that is what Katz is describing what the Internet did for this news event. People were able to describe their own reactions, and happenings.
He might just not mentioned that, but I would anticipate it as a very welcome and warranted side effect.
Well now the whole area has a lot in common then. Just replace most of the "Palestinians" with "Israelis" and you have an average article in www.jpost.com *sigh*. My brother pointed out something interesting. Why is it only the Western Islamic and Muslim leaders that condemn the trade center attacks as against their religion? (there was an excellent post by an American-Arab about this.) It most definately is. Jihad is only for people oppressed into not following their religion by the government. It definately allows for tolerance and love for people in its own borders.
Remember that Bin Laden is exiled from Saudi Arabia becuase he thought the American presence was a violation of Holy Land. He seems to have no religious founding for that, so we dig up our own rationalization for him anyway. People in America that picked up news paper some stories who think they then know what is going on. Anyone ever track down those 5000 Egyptian women who were shipped to S.A.supply the Soldiers needs during Desert Storm? That was all over the Arab world presses at the time.
I was on the side of the poor victims of American 500-pound-guerilla-ism, and in many ways still am. But I've learned something in the mean time, and have since grown up.
1) We are responsible for the Govt's actions. They did it for us. We say "we want cheap oil" and we say "we want cheap beef." The Government that wants to stay in power just listens and obeys like a humble a-moral robot.
2) Every two bit johny-come-lately to power down there realizes there is much to be gained by listening to their people who look with envy on the prosperity of America. Heck, even Mexico feels the same way. Its easy to look across the atlantic and blame all their troubles on those two towers where world trade happens and they think they get shortchanged. That perspective can twist many events that really are more benign. That perspective twisting is something called hatred.
So all in all, I take what I hear from both sides with a grain of salt. Meanwhile I look to get into the government becuase the only real change will come from within. Not from a plane flying into a building. Also I plan to be nice to Arabs so that my judgement doesn't get clouded by fear, hatred or jealousy.
Becuase in the end, aside from a very few admirable people that I see actively doing something from what they've learned about our secret government, I find that I can lump everyone that starts complaining about American Imperialism into my round "Complainers" file.
And I definately lump people who take their own inadequacy and hatred and jealousy as excuses for destruction as no better than a child who throws a rock through the t.v. becuase his/her parents won't let them watch Barney. Doing something does not mean destroying things for attention. Ghandi and MLK showed us a better way.
Tantrums do not get a sympathetic ear in my experience.
Oh yes, one more thing. The images of Palestinians celebrating in Israel you have seen on the news are most likely fake. In a manner of speaking, anyway. They are from 1991 and unrelated to anything going on currently.
I call your bluff...
On a related note, here is the word as I have it from SLC relayed by my EQP. This isn't to be taken as religious agrandizing, or competition. Mearly a bulliten that applies to many readers of slashdot.
[Message...]
As a further note,I bring a message from the Bishop which has in turn been received from the General Authorities of the Church.
1. We are asked to pray for the victims of the terrorist attack that occurred on Tuesday.
2. We are asked to reach out to Muslim friends/neighbors/acquaintances to ensure they know of our love toward them and to not participate in any kind of hatred or discrimination against them.
3. As noted below in Ron's note, there will be a special Fast this Sunday for the victims and their families. Fast offering donations should be made on the Humanitarian Aid line of the tithing/offerings receipt. Please indicate 9-11 on the slip and this money will be dedicated to assisting the victims of the disaster.
Please ensure that you have contacted every family you Home Teach by this evening.
[Ron's message]...
Here's a link to the message from the First Presidency about Sunday's fast.
link
hmmm your logic sounds like... if I drink a gallon of gasoline I die, therefore, if I died then I must have drunken a gallon of gasoline.
But just as there are many reasons for death there are many reasons for unrest and this outlash. Theres also many reasons a three year old takes a rock and throws it through a TV set.
And thats exactly what is going on, they are lashing at authority they don't agree with. "Mommy won't take me to the store to buy guns to fight the Israelies, I'm going to scratch out her picture."
Whether or not it the policy is fair depends on more than if someone is screaming and kicking or not. However mindless destruction becuase they don't like what is going on is unanimously agreed as wrong. See the difference?
sorry, the Richter scale is logrithmic, so it would at best be a 5 or 6.
This sounds like...
spaniard: I see you are using Rosettie's Defence...
man in black: Naturaly, I find it good considering the rocky terain.
spaniard: You must expect me to counter with Capapelle.
man in black: Of course, but I find that Tibult cancels out Capapelle, Don't you?
spaniard: Unless your enemy has studied his Agrippa, which I have!
This sounds like...
spaniard: I see you are using Rosettie's Defence...
man in black: Naturaly, I find it good considering the rocky terain.
spaniard: You must expect me to counter with Capapelle.
man in black: Of course, but I find that Tibult cancels out Capapelle, Don't you?
spaniard: Unless your enemy has studied his Agrippa, which I have!
What would you do if Toa's came in seeds?
--You'd sow-a-toa
What would happen next?
--You'd grow-a-toa
What would you call a snake that swollowed it whole?
--A toa-constrictor
What would happen if you invited a toa home for dinner?
--You'd get to know-a-toa
How would you say that you don't trust a toa?
--I don't trust you any more than I can throw-a-toa
What would happen if you hide a toa?
--You would stow-a-toa
Thank you very much, I'm here all week.
Be sure to tip you waitress...
Well said, all in all.
One question got me thinking, how can this intelligence account for itself?
I'm not a creator of universes but one of its simple mechanics is exemplified in the question "Can God create a Rock he cannot lift?"
Its a simple logic question, we have only three elements; God, a Universe and a Rock.
We assume the following attributes,
God: Can do Anything,
Universe: place for things to happen
Rock: Something to do by lifting.
Why this excersize? becuase we get to create our own universe and god. In a way we get to play god. Lets see what happens to our simple little universe.
Two things can happen. By definition god can do anything so he can create the rock. But what happens to God when he does? He ceases to be god becuase he can no longer do anything. I suppose the Universe he created goes in to havok also.
So usualy we assume that something else happens other than creating that Rock. If god never creates that rock, he remains a god.
So in this display of personal will, purpose and intelligence we see something interesting. A creator is also confined (by free will) to the purpose of his/her creation. We already know this as the saying "You can't have your cake and eat it too" or "you can't create a universe and do whatever you want."
Such a shame, and such is life. So how does intelligence account for its own creation? At least in this simple example we see that there is an intelligence at work even in the possibility of viable universes. The way universes have to be made shows an order and design. Or in otherwords there must be an intelligence and purpose (and free will I think we just showed) even behind intelligence.
It can go without end like that, but I think its at least logical to conclude that it is there. I'm reminded of the use in many theological text from the East, and from recent texts from not so far away of god using the word "eternity" in plural. From there I'm afraid the veil is drawn and I can't see past it to find an origion, intelligence clings to intelligence.