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A Tale of Two Media:Tragedy and Images
For me, the images down here will be the barges that chugged out of Battery Park carrying corpses bound for vast New Jersey morgues, the smoke and smell and noise, the gaunt and hollow-eyed looks of the cops and firemen digging desperately for their buddies with their bare hands, the relatives on their knees praying all over the place, the video of the couple jumping off one of the towers holding hands, crushed police cars and fire trucks, many with bodies inside, the distant figure on the water everybody said was the U.S.S. George Washington, an aircraft carrier sent to protect New York harbor, and the soldiers with machine guns that are guarding major roadways and airports.
Big stories like this now are covered two ways -- online and off. The former draws millions to websites like CNN's and USA Today's, and new kind of sites like this one. Bloggers and others put up sites so that people could describe what was happening in their own words. People in apartment complexes and news sites posted accounts, and looked for relatives and housing.
As interesting as the Net is -- some of the best and most graphic video of the tragedy was popping up all over the Web -- and as idiosyncratic, the dominant medium when stuff like this happens is still TV, by a wide margin. Hour by hour, TV culls and culls until it finds a handful of quickly familiar images burned into our national and global consciousness. In our time, somebody has a videocam aimed at everything all the time, and within minutes the pictures show up everywhere, on television and the Net. Almost nothing is our culture goes unrecorded or unobserved any longer. The immediacy was as astonishing as the images were unbelievable.
By nightfall, CNN, MSNBC and the networks were moving away from the dramatic video and the indescribable scenes of wreckage and carnage and calling in the policy wonks and propellerheads who hide out in Washington caves until something like this happens. The focal point of all the airtime then shifted from the devastation in New York to the parsing and analyzing of the political, governmental and intelligence communities. For future reference, that may be a good time to turn off the tube and get online, the medium of individual stories, feelings and experiences.
When things like this happen, TV, much more than the Net or the Web, reveals whether leaders rise or fall to the occasion. Mayor Guiliani of New York clearly rose to the tragedy. President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day. Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue. Bush got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter. At least that was the image that TV brought of us of these two very different leaders.
If you love New York, your heart will break when the smoke clears. Something about the city is busted for good, no matter what the mayor says. The damage is not describable, and surely hasn't been captured on TV. There are dead firemen, cops and office workers all over the rubble, everybody is saying, and the dust is so thick even the cadaver dogs are getting sick. Five techs with thermal imaging probes were retreating uptown, their sensitive equipment almost useless in the mud (caused by water poured on the still-burning fires) and smoke and dirt.
The buzz from the cops and reporters standing around is that the death toll will be horrible -- between two and three thousand -- but nowhere near the much higher figures feared yesterday. It seems that many people did get out, calling wives and cops from their cell phones as they went, as did some of the doomed passengers on the hijacked planes. (And a number of the people buried under the towers are still calling for help on their cells. Others got calls from spouses and friends telling them to get out.)
Across the street, a group of structural engineers were reassuring reporters that the towers collapsed of their own structural weakness, the steel melting from the fires, the buildings designed to collapse inward -- rather than fall down -- to save lives.
With their usual hubris, reporters and politicians were promising us that everything was going to change. But if the attacks demonstrate nothing else, it is the folly of that kind of thinking. Terrorists change too, and for all the high-tech equipment pouring into Manhattan, sometimes there isn't a thing we can do to stop them.
The Middle East Wire is very interesting read. I've especially enjoyed their Commentary and Interviews. For example, here is one very good article...
Jordanian Perspective about Attacks on America
Middle East News Online
By Edna Yaghi for Middle East News Online
Posted Wednesday September 12, 2001 - 06:00:52 PM EDT
While Israeli bulldozers continue to destroy Palestinian homes in the Beit Hanina district of Arab East Jerusalem and while 2 Palestinians in Nablus were killed and 20 injured as Israeli tanks shelled a refugee camp in the West Bank city of Jenin, Tuesday, September 11, 2 hijacked planes cut through the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City and a third plane dove done into the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.
These attacks, the worst ever on the U.S. mainland in modern history, struck at the heart of the American people and paralyzed the entire nation.
Thousands of innocent people may have lost their lives in a most tragic way. Surely, no peace loving person can condone the killing of civilian people regardless of what race, nationality or creed they possess.
Yet, America's blind and unconditional support for Israeli atrocities and crimes against the Palestinian people, plus the ongoing American assault against the Iraqis was bound to boomerang sooner or later. It is, after all, American made weapons that demolish, bomb, cut down and shoot Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. American planes are the ones that also randomly bomb Iraqi civilian targets.
One people are no more human than any other. As Americans grieve for the loss of their loved ones, so do Palestinians grieve for the senseless deaths of their people and the same goes for the Iraqis as well.
For nearly a year, the Palestinian people have been under Israeli siege. Every day Palestinians die in their homes, going to school, going to work, trying to get through an Israeli checkpoint or on the streets where they are open targets for Israeli tanks and snipers.
Every day Iraqi babies die because of the sanctions. Every month the death toll of Iraqi children surpasses 5,000. And George Jr. has taken over the job of bombarding Iraqis by air to make sure that their misery continues.
For the first time in a long time, the American people experienced how it feels to be attacked. People ran in desperate fear through the streets of New York City. Some hid behind cars. Others could not escape death.
America will never be the same again. The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon have proved that the greatest and only super power in the world is not invincible. No mater who is responsible for the attacks on America and not matter how viciously the Americans choose to retaliate, American foreign policy is what brought this all on. Perhaps this is the beginning of the decline of the great American Empire.
All good and bad things eventually come to an end. Americans should become aware of just how detrimental their foreign policy is and for a change, stand on the side of justice instead of supporting injustice all over the world.
On a side note, for those of you thinking about war, I suggest you read Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden. Then think again about sending troops out to battle.
...I'll procrastinate tomorrow...
It is not like we don't have this on every channel of our TV. It is not like you have some special perspective on what is going on. Please, this is not your "I want to post my feelings" soap box. I was there, I saw it. It is sick, it is unthinkable, but please your monotirade on the subject can be passed on. Please people are coming here to have something else to read besides the 24/7 views we have on TV. Not to forget or forgive, but to look at something else. So as not to get desenitised by it all and become apathetic. Sometimes there is such a thing as just to much. I feel for you, as I feel for everyone envolved, but please do us all a favor and print something besides a rehash of things we are being forced to deal with every minute of the day. Sometimes the best thing is not to have it in your face all the time, otherwise it just gets old. This is not something that was can afford to have people thinking "Jezz enough already", this need to be something that we keep burning until it is righted.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
The US will live a long time. And suffer for almost all of it. The US is hung up on its self-righteousness and their ignorance of how dangerous their foreign policy really is.
This act was inhuman but the way to put it to rest isn't by applying less humanity.
When we go to prosecute a murder, we look
for intent. I find it funny that very
little media has given us a detailed
background of the history and possible
motivations of the terrorists. This was
obviously not a spur-of-the-moment thing.
It took determination, planning, willing
to give up one's life. I would like to see
less talk of War and more of Why.
In short, I've listened to CSPAN all day
today and yesterday. Lots of talk of
war, getting retribution, but no analysis
of what part we have played in this story.
Best,
Clark
As such wonderful documentaries as The Siege have so articulately exposed, the Liberal masterminds in Berkeley and their toadies throughout the nation have been silently waging war against the American people and their God-given rights to protect themselves, their worship, their family values, and their hard work. Much of this has been conducted under the guise of preventing "terrorism", a meaningless word engineered by radical left-wingers specifically to bring fear into the heart of honest Americans. Think about it -- can you remember any reference to so-called "terrorism" that occurred before Liberals invaded our government offices in the last decade? Of course you can't, because despite whatever the revisionist histories may tell you, there is no mention of any "terrorism" in classic literature before 1980. Only then did the neo-Marxists invent such absurd figures as Timothy McVeigh and Osama Bin Laden in order to legitimize their anti-freedom agenda, drowning the spirit of the American people in a blatantly-engineered machine of fear and mourning for "victims" of these "terrorist attacks".
In fact, it should be incredibly obvious that the concept of a 110-story building even being built, much less two, is a clear and obvious fraud. No documentation of these "twin towers" existed before a "terrorist attack" occured on the previously-nonexistent pair of skyscrapers on September the 11th. Due to this hoax being perpetrated by the Liberal-controlled media, suddenly people all over the world mourned the loss of thousands of people who had not existed before. Innocent men and women, brainwashed by the left-wing education institutions, gave firsthand accounts of losing relatives they never had until the "attack" happened.
But the most outrageous aspect of this hoax is the "Pentagon" -- a government office fabricated especially for this purpose. Liberal media claims this imaginary building to be "the center of America's defense system", although obviously an organization as proud and God-fearing as the United States Military would never think to station themselves in a building of five sides, so obviously close to the pentagram, mark of Lucifer himself. It is insulting to the nation's intelligence that eight hundred members of the world's proudest institution would be made to meet their Lord by something as graceful, efficient, and secure as our country's fine aviation system.
Don't let the devious tricks of the Liberals allow you, a citizen of the greatest nation this Earth has ever or will ever know, to surrender your freedoms. Any lesser nation would have succumbed to their wills long ago, and indeed the socialist states in Europe already have. It is only the superior resilience, pride, and intellect of America that has allowed it to withstand the constant threat of Liberal control.
I guess you didn't see the remake of King Kong? Having made that obvious joke, I agree, there is something about the Empire State Building that is more evocative than the WTC. Clearly the WTC was an irresistible human and financial target.
My other sig is extremely clever...
How cool they were..So strange..Like it was just another story.Professionalism ? I cant help but wonder if they thought it was real or not ..
,and now a target.
,out there rescuing people, thank you !
Just another image from a movie.I was there in the living room looking at the morning news..Then it came.So unreal i thought it was a sequel to War of the Worlds at first.The came the schock a second airplane and people falling out of the sky.I wish to thank those reporters for being there and congradulate them for the way they kept their cool.I must admit that if they were screaming and crying like the bystanders,they might have created more panic which at the time seemed unnecessary.
My fear now is about biological and chemical attacks.I wont say nuclear.Though the threat is real.But to all of those who been out there on the front line for us , to let us know what went on and that contributed to keep us informed,the cameramen,the soundmen,the mixers,the guys doing the satellite uplinks,to all of those who are there on the frontline for us,thanks.
Hopefully they will never rebuild such a trap
that was for some a symbol.Buildings like these are a danger
To all of you on ground zero
Best regards
Was where I was when the first tower collapsed.
I live 3 blocks below the south tower and was walking to work. It was so surreal. I didnt see the planes hit and I was sure it was an accident and just a small propeller plane. I never even considered the buildings would collapse. Only a handfull of people on Wall St escaped the dust cloud. Luckily I was one of them. But that was just the start of my adventure.
Im just glad to be alive.
WB Grace et al. provided at least about 200,000 pounds of asbestos (~100 tons) for use in the WTC
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I honestly don't think they were attacking the state of NY. They were attacking the federal government, and purhaps capitalism. That's why they hit the WTC and hit the pentagon (althought there's reports they were aiming at the whitehouse).
The only thing I wonder about is what the passengers on the planes that hit the WTC were thinking. Why didn't they try to overthrow their captors like the passengers on the Pennsylvania flight? Did they have time to react? I can't imagine the terror they must have felt when they saw themselves heading towards the WTC...
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Not to be distastefull, but the bigest towers in the world are in malaysia. The Petronas Twin Towers (well known from the movie 'Entrapment' with sean connery and catherine zeta-jones). At 88 floors and 452 meters.
One & Two World trade measured in at 417 and 415 meters and 110 stories.
The Sears tower (443 meters, 110 stories) in chicago and the Jin Mao Building in Shanghai (420 meters, 88 stories) are also taller then the WTC's.
Anyways, non of it matters anyways.. just nit-picking.
When the pundits come on, it is not necessarily the time to turn off the tube and go online to read about people's personal experiences. This is more than a story of brave firemen and watching relatives sob over their loved ones - it is as much a political story as anything else. One thing that the pundits do actually achieve is to tell the political story (if only from one side).
The net is useful, but mostly because you can visit pages of political activists from all sides of the picture. While I have sympathy, I can only take so much of the network's sob stories when there is so much more involved.
my god man.
what a time to harp about how glad you are that they didn't crash into the empire state building.
do you realize how many people are dead?!?!
i have nothing but sympathy for the people affected and for your poor ignorant self.
you should be ashamed
One thing I was thinking today is that if I had to choose, I would rather they had taken out the World Trade Center rather then the Empire State Building.
I had the same thought, only I was thinking about the Statue of Liberty.
Speaking of online media (in another sense) - I've heard reports in the past that claimed that Bin Laden steganographically hid data inside of images and postings on public message boards to communicate.
I was wondering how feasible it would be to create filters for Apache and/or IIS which would strip images of potential steganographic information. For instance, GIF images could be converted to JPG's and then back to GIF's before being served - this would probably eliminate hiding data in the LSB. (Obviously you'd have to do some caching) You could do similar things to other media, like WAV and MP3 files.
How hard is this? Could it be used to prevent use of public servers as repositories for steganographic media? Would it work? Would it be used widely enough to be effective?
The temptation is to bomb whoever did this back into the stone age. If we return senseless evil for senseless evil, we will sow a whirlwind for our grandchildren to reap. Let us respond deliberately, and in such a way that not one innocent person is harmed.
Let us respond by examining ourselves and our policies, but not by restricting our freedoms, or requesting that anyone's liberty be restricted. We need to light a candle for those who mourn, and for those lost. We must become a beacon of sanity, hope, and justice. Justice will be done, but let it not be done with an even greater measure of injustice.
Like most of us, I sometimes wonder if Katz's articles shouldn't just be modded "0, Troll" and ignored. The statement that George Bush "fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day" is rather disingenuous and short-sighted. Bush was evacuated by the Secret Service, doing exactly what they're trained to: get the President out of harm's way and into facilities where he can receive C4I (command, control, communications, computer, and intelligence) data and coordinate a response.
I live less than ten miles from Offutt Air Force Base here in Nebraska. None of us were surprised when it was announced that Mr. Bush was brought here after releasing his taped announcement at Barksdale AFB; the headquarters for US Strategic Command is here. Data from satellites, human intelligence assets, and news media could be easily collated and presented to the President by the staff in the "rabbit hole," the STRATCOM underground command post.
President Bush wasn't hiding or fleeing. He was doing his job: managing the country's business in the best possible manner. Just because the mayor of a city was brave and/or foolish enough to endanger his own life doesn't mean the President of a nation has that luxury. Losing so many thousands of individuals is terrible enough; having to attempt to manage that response and simultaneously transition power to a new President because the last one got himself killed is infinitely more so.
I didn't vote for President Bush, nor do I agree with all (or even a majority) of his other decisions. Nonetheless, to feel the need to criticize the man for doing his job is the mark of a small man indeed.
They that would sacrifice their
I don't appreciate you trashing our President in your comments concerning New York. Yes, the Mayor did a wonderful thing by going down there and helping, but the President was in danger, Air Force One was in danger, and for you to portray him as a coward and a man who "got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter" is just unpatriotic. Jon Katz you have truly offended me, and I'm sure many others.
At the other end of the spectrum is the Statue of Liberty. Only a handful of tourists would have been killed, but the symbolic meaning is far, far greater than that of the WTC. Case in point: these two political cartoonists. Had the Statue been hit, they wouldn't have drawn the WTC peeking through the debris.
So which target is worse? How many people would have to die in buildings less than 30 years old before that loss outweighs the deep emotional, spiritual significance of losing the ultimate symbol of American unity and liberty?
Far fewer than 5,000, I think, but maybe that's just because it really happened.
i already posted this on everything2, but here goes.
total US-Israel state to state financial aid in millions of USD
1949-1969: 74*
1970-1973: 425*
1974: 2,646
1975-1982: 2,348*
1983: 2,501
1984: 2,629
1985: 3,372
1986: 3,800
1987: 3,050
1988: 3,050
1989: 3,050
1990: 3,050
* average amounts
after 1990, the amount of US aid to Israel accounted to about 3,000 million USD a year: 1,800 million as direct military assistance and 1,200 million as civil assistance (which is mainly used to pay interest on past military loans). the United States also provided Israel with 80 million USD a year in "refugee resettlement assistance" for Jews migrating to Israel. In 1996, Israel received another 50 million USD package for anti-terrorism equipment.
in 1998, Israel received the same amount.
in comparison:
Egypt received 2,100 million USD;
Jordan: 150 million USD (under an agreement with the United States, Israel and Egypt returned respectively 50 million USD to the newly created "Middle East Peace and Stability Fund". Jordan will benefit these other 100 million USD for its commitment to peace);
the Palestinians 100 million USD, mainly through NGO's. in August 1997, the US Congress allowed the expiration of a law, the Middle East Peace Facilitation Act, which permitted direct assistance to the Palestinian Authority. it did so because the Clinton administration was unable to certify that the PA was complying with their agreements with Israel.
the reader should note that in 1998 total funding to Israel was +/- 3.1 billion USD. total 1998 funding to Egypt, Jordan, and Palestine totals 2.4 billion USD. any figures on US aid to other Middle Eastern nations were unavailable at the time this node was written. i hope these figures make clear the fallacy of claims that the events of September 11th, 2001 were in response to American aid and efforts in the region.
JonKat's article really drives home something that had been hovering around my mind while I dove deeper into the web and farther and farther away from the TV.
They say that Vietnam was the TV war. The event so saturated by the media that interpreted it that the event itself was changed. The Gulf War might be considered the highest incarnation of event Television -- characterized by just the elements JK mentions. Hyper focused images extracting as much pathos as possible from the event. Tight messages. Repetition. Analysis. Hyperbole without connection.
It seems that perhaps september 11th is the first Interactive war. The impact of cell phones accross the event is astounding. The role of Internet as events unfolded is equally impacting. The tenor of coverage provided by the Net has been throughally, radically, different from the TV coverage.
As much as things will change because of this event, I am struck when considering how this event shows how much already has changed
These attacks force us to look at the uses of technology to spread our risks out. Having 1/2 of the US economic transactions flow through a small island off the Atlantic coast might need to be re-thought. Using airlines for business meetings instead of high-speed videoconferencing should change. Perhaps this event will wake us up to the new world that technology provides for us.
My heart goes out to those in New York and across the country.
A couple of days ago, you stated: "Reporters break down on the air and sob." Now you're saying that they were "remote and detached". Which is it? You have an interesting way of twisting things depending on the angle you wish to cover.
CSPAN an American news network? You might try the BBC or somthing you're likley to find decent analysis. Have you not been follwing the happenings in the middle east for oh say forever?
I suggest you watch the Fontline documentry on PBS tonight. I havn't seen it personally but they're usually quite good and dig a little deaper then CNN.
My God, Katz, is this you? This is a well-done article, I think. You made good sense, you made good points, you even sounded reasonable. I guess something has changed.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
The fact is that individual suffering means little. At this time, while it is nice and probably healthy to think of those who lost their lives and the impact that that will have on their families, the real conversation lies in the political. Who did this? What will the response be?
Though it does not seem so, especially those thrown into the epicenter of this tragedy, the geopolitical ramifications of this event are far more important than the victims' suffering. If this action is to start a large-scale war, it is possible that those who may appear allied with the U.S. turn their backs.
When the dust clears (or the glass hardens), will the power vacuum be filled in such a way to ensure better relations between countries, or will it be filled by an opportunistic dictator? How far should the American military pursue victory against its agressors? What is the ultimate aim of any military strike?
There are many reasons to be interested in the stories of personal tragedy playing themselves out at the base of the WTC, but they are superfluous and not newsworthy. They are like the Style section of the newspaper, fluff.
we've seen this happen many times in past. Extra security measures right after a crisis which begin to wane out soon. This had happened in India too.. when pakistani terrorists had hijacked a indian airlines flight and took it to afghanistan, there was unprecedented security at airports. but this soon waned out. This clearly is a much bigger tragedy but i'm afraid the reaction will be the same.
we should seriously consider having armed air marshells on every fligt .. armed with maybe not regular guns but something which'll not harm an aircraft if fired.
People should give up some of their convinences for the safety of everyone. Together we can prevent this from happening again.
Outside of this, however, I think a small body count is going to be unreasonable. The estimates today (5,000) seem correct. 20,000, as some places were saying, is far too many. I knew a number of people who got out, and 20,000 would be close to half the building's capacity. Unfortunately, "body count" is a vague term. Many bodies have been incinerated, and there have been more body parts found than actual bodies (gruesomely enough).
I think the worse thing is driving on the NJ Turnpike, looking up at the skyline, and NOT making the same comment everyone else made (that there's a hole in the skyline). That there's still smoke is what scares me. A manmade disaster still billowing smoke 2.5 days later. And a slightly acrid smell, even from here. It's amazingly close to home.
It may have appeared that he was shirking away, but from what I understand is that when he first heard the in Florida he requested to be flown to NY to be there directly and immediately. The secret service had a clear understanding that they had to first protect him from any and all danger and flew him to the nearest secure area (Louisiana). From there the secret service took him to an even more secure area (SAC in Nebraska). Finally letting him fly to DC once things were secured. There's just no pleasing people these days, if he would have flown directly to NY, you'd probably have called him a fool and putting the leader of the US in undue jeopardy.
The only thing I wish I had seen more of was a bit more fire in his eyes, an almost WWF Smackdown, we're going to get you look for lack of better words; but of course that would probably not be appropriate for the situation (actually whoever did this would probably just enjoy seeing it).
Now is not the time Mr. Katz to forward your personal political agenda.
I'd like to take issue with this statement, as this phenomena is largely due to design quirks that were a part of a questionable plan to increase floor space in the building. See more information on it in this discussion that was held over at Cryptome.org.
Is your company running tools written by ma
Within seconds after the first plane hit on television, a coworker got a call from his wife.. He ran to my cube (which already had a couple people in it) and announced the bad news.. "A plane ran into the WTC"..
.. loaded up the ip-tv client, and was sat clued in front of my laptop for hours.. (Until I found a coworker with awesome speakers and a 21" monitor)..
Wow. Turned back to my laptop, and the internet was a dog. All the major news sites were impossible to hit.
Then my phone rang.. My wife.. "Did you hear what's going on?!".. Me: "Yea, what a bad situation".. Her: "You know about the second plane?"..
My cube was silent when I gave the news. Now there was a huge group, and we all dispersed to try to dig up information.. Slashdot was very helpful, but we needed realtime. We ended up taking an extended 'smoke break' down in the parking lot listening to the radio on my rental car. AM radio.. After over an hour, we came in..
What did we hear when walking through the office? CNN! I looked, the company had CNN being multicast on the network,
Don't know why I'm telling this, just that I guess it's a pretty diverse mixture of old and new technology..
Frankly, I think this is a very childish and naive viewpoint. It's easy to say when you haven't lost anyone, or don't know anyone who has. The statue of liberty is just a symbol, the WTC housed thousands of people. I'd choose losing a precious symbol over human lives any day of the week.
I disagree. Numerous times i've seen even the major network anchors almost breakdown in tears. There was even video of the president on the verge of tears.
CSPAN = Congress "Live" In particular, I was focusing on CSPAN2 so that I may better assess what kind of leadership we have in this horrible time of crisis. Most of it is very good, just a bit too much war mongering, IMHO.
That would be "victim".
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
With previous significant events where the event itself was caught on film (Pearl Harbor, the assassination and funeral of Kennedy, the attempt on Reagan, the destruction of the Challenger), there was only one version, one angle, one view of the event...and that view was burned into our eyes and into our minds forever -- we all share that same view because it was the only view the media could give us.
With tuesday's events, things are different. There are multiple views, multiple angles, different tapes were made public at different times. There is no one specific version of the crash and the fall that we each will share -- for the first time in a major, caught on film and shown on the media, tragedy, each american's view of it is as individual as if he was there to witness it himself.
Probably won't be the last, but I did feel it was an interesting distinction of the how the new century will differ from the old.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
So is this the new 'American way'? To commit genocide? I have to say I've been bitterly disappointed by the reactions online. I live in NYC, and have been down to the affected area, have inquired about donating blood (got turned away, they have too many applying), and have offered what help I can. EVERYONE I have spoken to in NYC feels a huge sense of loss, and a quiet determination to help in whatever way. There is anger, sure, but it is not the irrational ranting and raving that is so dominant on the net. Yes, I'm an Arab, yes, I utterly abhor what has been done, and wish nothing but the utmost harm to those responsible. However, I fail to see what this hatemongering achieves. I understand and empathise with your anger. hell, I wish I had someone to lash out at and vent, but I recognise how that does nothing more than descend to the same level, and makes a mockery of all that makes this country what it is.
Journalists are (for the most part) human, and don't want to see other humans hurt or killed. They feel emotions, they feel pain, they cry. They throw up the morning after watching several thousand people die before their eyes.
On the other hand, tragedies like this are what make their careers. This is big news. This is how they make all their money. As human as they are, there's something inside of them just hoping something bad will happen to cover. Even worse, sometimes they wish bad situations turn even more horrific...
Even though I'm not a journalist, I can feel this pull. Half of us wants people to be safe, the other half wants to see something spectacular.
What a horrible, contradictory dualism we humans have,
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Because if they were to do this, they would have to admit a number of things which would undermine the message they are trying to send, such as:
1. Osama bin Laden, the current prime scapegoat, was originally supported by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Most of bin Laden's associates, as well as the others associated with the Taliban regime, were trained and financed by the CIA.
2. If it was bin Laden, the bombing was in response to such things as: the bombing and sanctions against Iraq which may have killed clost to a million innocent civillians, the continued oppression of Palestinian civillians by Israel (recent death toll in the thousands, at least), and the destruction of a Sudanese pharmacutical plant by American cruise missiles, death toll unknown because a UN investigation was blocked by the US, but it was the primary source of vaccines and antibiotics for almost all of Central Africa, so it is possible the death toll is in the ten thousands. It would be difficult to acknowledge these things while at the same time clamoring for retribution against Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., because it would be clear that the attack on america itself was a similar act of desparate retribution.
But rather than explaining anything, the media seems more interested in rallying support for another middle eastern war, which will likely lead to further despicable terrorist attacks on america such as this one, AS WELL AS untold thousands of civillian deaths wherever the american government chooses to attack.
Oh yes, one more thing. The images of Palestinians celebrating in Israel you have seen on the news are most likely fake. In a manner of speaking, anyway. They are from 1991 and unrelated to anything going on currently.
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
I clicked on the link from the front page so I could read this "prattle".
Why did you expect any differently?
two words: anonymous, coward
-dk
Dream with the feathers of angels stuffed beneath your head.
First: I would urge everyone to be very aware that not everything we read, regardless of source or attribution, is as it seems. We MUST act with reason and common sense, checking to make sure misinformation isn't used to compound these heinous acts. These bastards want to destroy us, Americans and all of the civilized people of the World, we must not allow it. As we have seen the civilized leaders of the world, even those with whom we have serious political differences, pledge to join us in what must be a massive fight against all those who would seek to destroy civilization and we must hold them to it.
We have already seen extremist from the left and the right, within and without, attempt to advance their "cause" on the back of this tragedy. Surely just as horrendous a crime as the act itself. These extremists must also be dealt with.
I am certain good will prevail over evil.
Second: Tuesday we were all made combatants in this War, we must support our military response. And, perhaps more importantly, all of us must defend the world economy. Remember that it is completely in our hands and minds. Consider Monday the bottom of the economic downturn. Invest prudently, but invest. Buy wisely, but buy. And be vigilant of those who try to gouge or otherwise unfairly profit from this.
Third: I'm a first generation American. My parents were driven from Iran by this same Islamic filth (I'm sorry but I can't help but be prejudice, and feel hate for them all. All I can do is try not to act on it). Deep within me is a hatred of that religion, all religion. They killed more than half of all the people my family knew and loved, stole all they had worked for and filled their lives with pain and terror. Even before the "fundamentalists" took over, my family (Zoroastrian and Catholics) and many others were persecuted for their faith, the cloths they wore, the food they ate (they kill people for drinking wine or eating ham ). I say these things not to spread my hate, It's my burden to bear and I don't wish it on my worst enemy. I say it so I can point out that although I'm filled with hate for ALL muslims and all Gods, my parents are not and didn't teach it to me. They know and love a lot of muslims, muslims helped them flee certain death. But those muslims were secular, they acted in the name of humanity not in the name of Allah. Beware of ANYONE who presumes to act or speak in the name of any god. I understand that some people feel they need faith in gods to be good people , and I try to be respectful when I can but it has gone too far for too long.
Lastly: To all those like me who owe their very existence to this great nation, it's our turn. Half a century ago the descendants of european immigrants went by the tens thousands to the homeland of their ancestors to rid the earth of a great evil. We must do the same, the battles will be fought differently but in the end we too shall prevail. I have great faith in America and the civilized people of the world. This is not a time to wave the flag, it is a time to display it proudly and put all our efforts into the task at hand. Victory at any cost.
It's important to understand that most hijacking's don't end the way this one did. Most of the time you are just flown to a 3rd world country and some one's brother is released from prison. The passengers would have been stupid to try to overthrow the plane, they didn't know their fate like we do now. The flight that crashed in PA was different, it happened after the wtc crashes, so the people on the flight new what was going to happen to them (thanks to cell phones). And also planes only have windows on the side, so it's likely that people didn't ever know what they hit.
brodie@dreamyou.ca
I think this could have been prevented by implementing pilotless planes. The technology has been around for years to make 767's fly themselves from Point A to B.
Also, we should not be scared of terrorists, but the US should not interfere with places such as Chechnya, Kosovo, and Israel.
I hope identical towers will be built in place of the destroyed ones. I will be the first to go the roof of the new ones.
WTC was the worst target possible these days! Think of the economic slowdown, and how things will be much worse now!
:-(
Anything but WTC...
Guiliani [sic] got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue.
As usual, Rudy Giuliani cannot be given enough credit. He is, perhaps, my favorite political figure of this decade. Unlike nearly every other political figure (I try not to refer to him as a politician, as I find that term derogatory) one never wonders where Rudy stands on an issue. He doesn't sit around waiting for the polls to come out so he can announce his stance on that day. He says "Here's my position on issue X. If you like that position, vote for me. If not, don't." He has (with help from others, of course) cleaned up Manhattan (most notably Times Square) significantly. He has slashed the crime rate (no pun intended) dramatically. While I certainly don't agree with his unwavering support of the NYPD no matter how many times they fuck up (Amadeu Diallo for one), I believe his good attributes far outweighs his bad.
Rudy dropped out of the Senate race because he has (I believe) prostate cancer. At the time I felt sure Rudy would have my vote, even considering he was running against Hillary. But he bailed and I was left with Hillary or... Rick Lazio. That was an easy call -- Hillary hands down. But that's beside the point.
He's not running for re-election. His political career is probably nearly over, by choice. He really has nothing to gain politically at this point and still he faces this tragedy with everything he has. he gives press conferences well past 1 am on NY1 and I'm sure he's up before 9 every day.
While Bush's actions weren't too courageous, he has an army of secret service agents strongly advising him what to do next. If the president dies on their watch, their balls are on the line. And Bush was never a very good speaker. I just wonder what would have been different had Gore been in the White House instead of Bush...
It has been said the the government will be investigating suspicious cell phones calls made during yesterday's events in hopes of finding a conversation between terrorists. This is the first time Carnivore is being used in a well publicized situation - and despite my desire for the protection of free speach, I can't bring myself to flame the government for using it under these circumstances. Is Carnivore now our friend? What distinguishes when it should and should not be used?
Two things I've seen about this come from the UK:
BBC Q&A about the situation
and The Guardian saying "They can't see why they are hated"
--stanza
Explaining the reasons for their actions validates the action and gives the terrorists publicity for their cause. This can encourage further acts of aggression.
Brought to you by: "Al"toids - the curiously weird mint.
Seriously, Mr. Katz, don't you think these people have enough to do without you poking around?
Stay out. Leave them alone. Let them do their jobs. They don't need to worry about your sorry ass while they try to do the hardest thing most of them have ever had to
Didn't you already write a rather insensitive article about this, Katz? And by the way, the 5 hour line about the blood bank in your last one was pulled -directly- from a CNN broadcast.
I take that back. The number is zero. It's just a statue for heaven's sake.
I've heard the claim that Airforce One was supposed to be a target, but this just doesn't make any sense. How would airplane hijackers target Airforce One? Surely their targets would be large non-moving landmarks on land, not a well protected moving target in the air that they could not readily track.
The claim that Airforce One was a target feels from here like an attempt to justify the president's scarcity on the first day of the tragedy via the use of an untruth.
http://www.spaceimaging.com/newsroom/attack_galler y.htm
Looks like simcity!
I would have to say the opposite. The Statue is a symbol of freedom, liberty, and hope, the ideas this nation was founded on. A few thousand mindless salaried workers, living vicariously through their material possessions, in a glorified indentured service, living between paychecks -- do the loss of these people really affect anything? Despite the media hoopla, life will go on as normal once the newscast ratings drop and people get tired of seeing the same 15 minutes worth of footage looped repeatedly on TV. As sorry as I am, simply for the sheer number of victims, I can't say I can hold them above the ideal of Liberty.
This editorial, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant
remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today
paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries
in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except
Russia fly American Planes? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you
get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at
home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody Loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced
to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing
with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their
nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!
your kids and others will be asking you all of your lives where you were when the plane crashed into the World Trade Center and burst into that orange fireball and the buildings fell down.
C'mon, Jon, I never once asked my parents where they were when JFK was shot. Neither has my sister, or any of the my parents' students (they are both teachers). Don't be so sensationalistic. This was the most nationally significant event of my lifetime, but where was I? I was in bed, sleeping, when it happened. Big fucking deal.
This is the rumor I heard:
Passengers of the WTC crashed based flights were told there was a bomb on the plane and they were heading back to the airport for negotiations. They thought they would live.
The Pennslyvania crash already knew about the WTC and knew they were dead already.
After we punish the enemy with bombs, with bullets, we must salt the soil that the twisted tree of intolerance and fanaticism takes root in. We must change the hearts and minds of the young.
We salt them with small computers. With internet access. With a telephone in every village. With juvenile novels and encyclopedias translated into Arabic. With teachers who speak their language, and who teach them to use these tools to answer questions for themselves. Yes, some of those teachers will be killed. They are soldiers in this war as much as anyone who takes on a beret or a gun, and we can make martyrs of them for the world.
No tyrant can long survive with an informed and educated populace.
The organizations they declaim as the mouthpieces of the US shall be USED as the mouthpieces of the west. We tell their children that there is a life beyond substistence farming and blood feuds. We tell their wives and daughters that there is a life where they are valued as individuals and people in their own right, not as chattel.
We give them the tools of bilateral communication, rather than unilateral indoctrination. We give them the internet. We declare a great work, of making sure that every corner of this globe has access to fast internet access. Not just the US. Not just Europe. The world.
They will see pornography sites. They will also see sites discussing engineering, and simple improvements to agriculture. The curiousity of children will be piqued, and their questions answered. With each question asked, and each answer given, we slowly wean them away from the culture of intolerance.
They'll be able to ask questions without censure or censoring, and get answers they might not otherwise have.
I would sooner carpet bomb with game boys and Pokemon, and an Arabic translation of Monopoly, than FAEs and nuclear explosives. The adults are beyond our reach. The young MUST be reached so that 20 years from now, the thought of piloting a captured airliner into an office building full if innocent bystanders meets with universal horror.
I fear, in the haste for vengeance, that the nature of this conflict will be forgotten. Make no bones about it -- this is a culture war. It can only end with a declaration on the order of Cartago Delendo Est.
We cannot win this war with bombs or bullets, although we can accelerate its prosecution by those means. We can only win this war through a generational conflict; we must win the war in the hearts and minds of the children growing up in the Middle East now.
Winning that longer war will be costlier and less immediately gratifying than cluster bombs and Fuel Air Explosives, and "killing the bastards and everyone that helped them."
It can, however, be a profitable war.
If you are an author, or someone who creates media, contact your publisher about translating your works into Arabic. Someone in the DoD is in charge of outbound propaganda; we should find who that person is, and give them the munitions to win this war.
Bin-Ladin has declared this a culture war.
Let's show him what a culture war TRULY looks like. Let's send in Shakespeare. And Heinlein. And Harlequin Romances, Pokemon and The Simpsons.
Ken Burnside
reprinted without permission from jerrypournelle.com But Jerry won't mind.
Best Slashdot Co
Usama bin Laden and your message of hate is uncalled for. Arabian peoples don't condone this type of behavior. The simple matter of fact is that first and foremost their gov't doesn't listen to them as the citizens, secondly Usama is a fanatic, he does this in the name of Allah but anyone from Islam can tell you.. these type of acts aren't promoted, they aren't condoned, violence isn't promoted, it's frowned upon. Think of David Koresh; he and Usama are along the same lines except Usama has alot more money, alot more following and protection.
The main reason for his protection; politics. That's all it is. The United States citizens really need to get more involved with how we are represented to the rest of the world. We have no one to blame except ourselves and the people that did this. If we would be more involved with our public relations across the world and how we treat other countries (not to bring anything but Bush has been stepping all over international pacts) we wouldn't be in such a bad position as now. I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened, considering the way it was going it probably would have HOWEVER if treaties and pacts were put into place before this Usama would of probably already been caught.
The last few times I've flown, I've been told that all cell phones must be turned off for the duration of the flight. I assumed that this was because they would interfere with cockpit communications. And now news reports are often talking about the cell phone calls made from airplanes during the hijackings. What gives?
The FAA security increases are irrelevant.
The real security increases took place at internet speed, within the first half hour after the first plane hit. Passengers on that plane used cell phones to let the world know they had been hijacked. The news media let the world know that hijacked planes were being used as weapons. Callers from the fourth plane got their cultural norm updated when they called out on their cell phones. They recomputed the risks and benefits of
A) 30+ people attacking five hijackers armed with knifes, vs.
B) sitting quietly while the plane is crashed at high speed into a large object.
Because they were a little late getting this news, they were unable to regain control of the plane when they attacked the hijackers, but they thwarted its use as a weapon. Within twenty four hours the news had spread: if someone with a knife starts to hijack a plane you are on, jump them-- kick them, bite them, knee them in the holy land. Do whatever it takes, because even though you might get hurt, or killed, your odds are a lot better than if you let them get control of the plane.
The real lesson here is that, when attacking a wired society, you'd darn well better coordinate your attacks, because within a blindingly short time the society will have learned and that trick won't work anymore.
-- MarkusQ
First is a change in the design of the aircraft ...but instead has a private outside door ?
itself.Why not make new airplanes where the cockpit is not acessible by the inside
Second stun gas in the passenger area.
Anything goes out of hand..psssssssssss
everyone to sleep till we reach the airport..
night night
Simple ?
One of the soldiers killed in that incident was a friend's son. It was particularly painful because the military wouldn't tell her a damned thing about how he died, specifically.
My thoughts on the matter are summed up in an essay I wrote addressing what I feel will be most important in the coming months. I would like for anyone reading my essay to share their feelings.
The Price of Freedom
Thanks
Jeremy
Over the past few months, I've been wondering whether I should or should not buy a cell phone. The FCC issued warning about cell phones causing brain cancer, but since that only applies to people using the phones for more than an hour a day, I decided to cave in and buy one. When I first heard about this crisis, I thought about how horrible it might be to be trapped under a bunch of rubble. That's when my cell phone went off, and my friend from back east asked me if everything was okay out here in California. Then it hit me...if only everyone in the building had a cell phone! Hundreds, if not thousands, of lives would have been saved. Fortunately, since these devices are nearly ubiquitous, many people escaped death. Another blow for Nokia. Imagine their next advertising gimmick: "Buy our new 6100 phone. It could save your life.. [display picture of person lying dead in bomb rubbel, and picture of live person holding up phone hugging their family members] yuck. - Z;(Bu911
PayPal $$ if you sign up for free offers (eBay, cred cards, e
The Awesome Cruelty of a Doomed People
Blowback
Terrorism, Television, and the Rage for Vengeance
For some background on Israel - try this for example: America's Last Taboo (Edward Said)
More at ZNet.
Please post more links to analysis as you find them! From whatever perspective. This is a much neglected issue.
Female Prison Rape in NY
With the United States being the only remaining superpower, we (since I am a US citizen) make a perfect target. The sad fact is that the majority of US citizens don't pay much attention to foreign policy. In the case of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, the US support given to Israel makes the US just as guilty of killing Palestinians as the Israelis, from a Palestinian point of view. That's why some Palestinians were applauding the attacks. (Others were donating blood and denouncing the attacks. Most people don't mention that.)
US foreign policy in the Middle East is a long and sordid affair. Our government is not innocent and this will make alot of US citizens wake up.
Now that all of the knee jerkers are ready to flame me - NOTHING that our government has done, should result in a tragedy like this. Regardless of the US foreign policy, innocent civilians DO NOT deserve to die. I stared out of my window towards the Financial District in shock and disbelief as the WTC fell. Terrorism is irrational and results in senseless bloodshed, mostly of innocents.
I hope that the people responsible for Tuesdays attacks are brought to justice swiftly. I also hope that the US retaliation doesn't result in further (and possibly worse) terrorist activity.
The tale of Frankenstein: the monster that turns against its creator.
... all these wars always happen far away while the US tax-payer funding all these policies voluntary or unvoluntarily ignores the truth. Well, misery and destruction seeded for years has finally sprouted and flown home.
Bin Ladens fight against the USSR in Afghanistan was funded & supported by USA.
Saddam Hussein was supplied plenty of arms by the US and UK when Iraq was fighting Iran.
Panamas General Noriega was trained and supported by the CIA.
US decides that an aspirin factory in Sudan is a biological weapons center, launches missile and lots of people die. Nothing happens.
Trying to hit Bin Laden US launches missile towards North Afghanistan, goes ashtray and hits Pakistan. Nothing happens.
Vietnam, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, Granada, Panama, Iraq, Somalia
It has been payback time and doesnt seem a large price to pay for all the previous deaths. It seems the revenge of the third world against the first in the hands of religious fanatics. Every country is accountable for its actions.
Does anyone have links of footage of the couple leaping?
or the second impact from below?
or the first impact? (high quality?)
or any high quality avi's/mpg's ?
most of it is simply mirrors of www.watership.org
Over the past few months, I've been wondering whether I should or should not buy a cell phone. The FCC issued warning about cell phones causing brain cancer, but since that only applies to people using the phones for more than an hour a day, I decided to cave in and buy one. When I first heard about this crisis, I thought about how horrible it might be to be trapped under a bunch of rubble. That's when my cell phone went off, and my friend from back east asked me if everything was okay out here in California. Then it hit me...if only everyone in the building had a cell phone! Hundreds, if not thousands, of lives would have been saved. Fortunately, since these devices are nearly ubiquitous, many people escaped death. Another blow for Nokia. Imagine their next advertising gimmick: "Buy our new 6100 phone. It could save your life.. [display picture of person lying dead in bomb rubbel, and picture of live person holding up phone hugging their family members] yuck. - Z;(Bu911
PayPal $$ if you sign up for free offers (eBay, cred cards, e
The whole fucking point of this article seems to be to criticize President Bush and the media. How utterly ridiculous.
I did not vote for Bush, nor do I agree with all his decisions, but this kind of bullshit article is entirely inappropriate during such a time of crisis. President Bush was being moved around by the secret service, it appeared the whitehouse was a possible target, should he have gone back to the whitehouse to be killed? No, he should stay the fuck out of Washington until the immediate danger is over, he can run the country from anywhere anyway!
Then you criticize the media as appearing distant, etc. I saw the whole thing on live television, when the second plance crashed into the second building, the reporters, camera man, and everyone else in the stupio screamed and started shouting. Some of the news networks STILL haven't run ANY commercials, the same reporters have been reporting for 2 days straight with almost no break, eyes are puffy, speach is slow, and they've put all their partisan political leanings aside and have simply tried to report on the fucking news, which is more than I can say for you!
Fucking ridiculous, and fucking inappropriate, please, Katz, STFU!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
this story from the UK sums it up, rather accurately.
Sad, but true
-
Is is just me, or did the first speech to the American nation made by the president seem very reminiscent of Winston Churchill's "Fight them on the Beaches" speech?
When a dream dreams the dreamer, the dreams the real.
Incorrect! Bush was taken to secure locations due to a credible threat to Air Force One, and clear and present danger to the White House. He went to a secure location (Nebraska) to convene the NSC. These actions may have saved his life. Don't underestimate the importance of these secure locations.
sulli
RTFJ.
He was not speaking of detecting such images - just trying to find a means whereby public servers would feed up all images with the hidden messages mangled beyond recovery by the lossy jpeg conversion.
Sounds good to me, but probably it would be better to convert the images once then store them locally.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Thank god!
Katz are you trying to say President Bush is a coward and is not in control?
I am a fellow New Yorker living in lower Manhattan (SoHo). I understand the mayor of my city (hell of a guy) jumping in front of the camera every five minutes. Guiliani has not been specifically targeted by the terrorists that slammed into the World Trade Towers. Do you want President Bush to be tap dancing in the rubble before the cameras or meeting with his staff to coordinate a response to this unbelievable ACT OF WAR? Remember, Ari talked about specific tactical information the terrorists appeared to have that only President Bush's security detail should know. Scary. Because of former FBI Agent Robert Hanson(sp?), it has been reported those sort of details were passed to the Russians. Who else might have received them? I wish they would have stuck him in the mountain fortress NORAD maintains.
I, personally, believe the "cautious sing-song" monotone is one hell of a lip bitting act. I would not be surprised if a string of profanity that would make a sailor faint has erupted from his soul in private. Remember what he said about Clymer.
Sure President Bush isn't Bill Clinton (glad handing for the camera today) in the speaking department. But, I don't need anyone to feel my pain right now. I want a cold, calculated, well planned, painful, mass devastation of the terrorists, their homes, their families, their harboring country and any nation caught funding their operation. Rinse. Repeat.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Katz, this simply wasn't true. There were several news anchors and people around them full of real emotion, on the verge of tears. For instance Ashleigh Banfield on MSNBC (an incredible woman and anchor who should get a friggin' medal for her work), at the beginning of the terror she was almost crying and could barely speak.
And GW, bless his heart, was almost crying today too. For once, I felt like he was really my president.
There was a lot of reality on TV for once. Too much.
If ever there could be a clear demonstration of the immense power of the television as a medium, this was it. What CNN and BBC effectively did was to invoke a sense of overwhelming shock and "unbounded" compassion for the distraught. Add to this the portrayal of emotion from the reporters. It gives the watcher a sense of communion. He feels he is part of that tragedy, however remote he may have been. This can never be duplicated on the Net, simply because, and pardon the cliche, the human angle doesn't exist.
Bin Laden couldn't have said it better himself.
The people who committed the unspeakably evil deeds were not monsters: they were human, much as we'd all like to forget this. They did what they did because they had been stung to madness, lashing out insanely at a power they felt helpless against. Much like the poster.
It therefore behooves us all to retain our sanity, and then to coldly, dispassionately and rationally erase the cause of the tragedy. If that means a programme of education, so be it. If it means one or two bullets in the right place and time, so be it. A clean nuclear weapon or ten in isolated locations if that's appropriate. But we won't erase the cause by losing our souls and massacring innocents.
Zoe Brain - Rocket Scientist
Everyone, and I mean everyone, who lives in Chicago (even little babies and dogs!) knows that the Sears Tower is still the tallest building in the world. Adding a bunch of paper-mache decoration to the top of your building and calling it "taller" is nonsense and every sensible person in the world knows it. We're 20 floors taller, for God's sake! Some day the records will show the truth.
I wish I could feel safe being so naive as to say something like that. I hope you don't believe that the only role our country has played in this nightmare is as a victim. Certainly everyone who died in the attacks Tuesday was a victim, and purely a victim. But you can't just close your eyes, cover your ears, and pretend that our country has played no role but that of a victim.
Steven N. Severinghaus
Its still just a SYMBOL, you retard.
I'm a first generation American. My parents were driven from Iran by this same Islamic filth (I'm sorry but I can't help but be prejudice, and feel hate for them all...Half a century ago the descendants of european immigrants went by the tens thousands to the homeland of their ancestors to rid the earth of a great evil. We must do the same, the battles will be fought differently but in the end we too shall prevail...Victory at any cost.
I appreciate your patriotism, but (IMHO) that isn't how America works. Here is my position, as posted earlier today on another site.
By The Numbers (a cross post)
2001 will doubtlessly go down in history as a year when thousands of Americans died because some people felt so strongly about their way of life that they were willing to die rather than change, and were willing to kill countless innocent bystanders in the process.
Except of course that "countless" is absolutely the wrong word to use here. One of the many things that Americans do quite well is count things--everything from hanging chad to corpses gets tallied and tabulated here. So we will in fact have concrete numbers to think about, eventually. Even before the year is out we will have good estimates to start thinking rationally about--thinking being another thing Americans are quite good at. We will know not only how many people they killed, but who they were and why they did it.
Drunk drivers, for instance, are expected to kill around 16000 people this year, give or take a few depending on how jolly the holidays turn out to be. While this is a horrid toll, it is quite a bit better than the 27000 or so that smokers will take out with second hand smoke--both because there are fewer of them, and because most victims of drunken drivers are spared the painful, lingering death of the smoker's victim. These are just two examples, falling between the somewhat larger numbers killed by (say) reckless driving in general and the slightly smaller numbers taken out (for example) by terrorists. But we'll count them all.
Terrible, surely. As Americans we can hardly hear numbers like this without asking ourselves the next question: what are we going to do about this?
Some countries have systems in place to deal with these sorts of problems quickly and effectively. Drink alcohol? We'll chop off your head. That certainly solves the problem of repeat offenders, and there is reason to believe that it acts as an effective deterrent. We, of course, aren't so direct. When an individual can be tied to a crime (say, a drunk driver) we deal with their behavior on a case by case basis. But whether a perpetrator can be found or not, we react like--well, like Americans. There really isn't another word for it. We install air bags, we segregate public places into smoking and non-smoking areas, we take myriad small steps to reduce the risks, to mitigate the damage, to solve the problem. We study it. We seek cures and explanations, predictive indicators and systematic risk factors. We debate. We argue. And above all, we seek to educate.
Some may call us wimps, others may call us civilized. In the long run, it doesn't really matter what they call us, because in the long run our system is phenomenally effective. Our wheels may grind slowly, but like the mill of justice they grind exceedingly fine.
True, there are always those who preach the extremes. Anyone with a radio can hear them--just fiddle with the dial until you find a station that's all talk (and I am thankful, little action). Or hop on the internet. Smokers should be doused with gasoline. Drunk drivers are doing us a service by culling those people too weak or stupid to get out of their way. We should use our military might to turn foreign countries into parking lots. All the fags should be sent to Haiti. Everyone should be required to smoke for a year, so they'll see how hard it is to quit. Drunk drivers were sent here by Satin. We should embrace Allah. Nuke them from orbit. Kill them all, let God sort 'em out. Everyone is gay, but most people haven't admitted it yet. The Blacks are behind this. Or the Jews. Or the Californians. Elvis is stalking me. Etc, etc.
The great thing about America is that we don't shut these people up. We don't have them shot, or locked away for decades. We don't even ignore them, really, although most of us don't act on their advice. Instead, we react to them like Americans always react to things. They get counted, along with the chad, along with the casualties, and their voices are weighed in when we consider our options, ground in the mill of public policy.
Which, as has been noted, grinds exceedingly fine.
-- MarkusQ
Q? Any CBers or HAMs that took part during this event?
After the first impact, I hit the web for corroboration.
No cnn.com, no nytimes.com, natch. I got to slashdot after just two tries and got a clue.
When the chips are down, switched traffic gets stuffed. Give me broadcast every time. Radio is all we've got that'll work anywhere and with AA batteries, or no batteries, if you've got the fresh wind-up model.
I realize later that we do not hear a single Emergency Broadcast System session.
Radio stations were dropping everywhere, or evacuating and removing to borrowed facilities. FM pop stations have given up on programming and are simply relaying ABC TV or 1010 WINS, an AM all-news station, and there is none of that two-tone signal interruption sqwaking the opposite of "If this were a real emergency..."
I found the web frustrating when emergency info might have been needed, but later it was very useful as you'd expect.
Has anyone praised Google for allowing their putting their cache farm in service?
Email was flowing freely, and served to be a great thing for folks needing a quick ping check to see if their friends were alive.
There is a reason that Bush went to a bunker (along with Chenney, and others like the speaker of the house). The US is not simply a big chunk of land surrounded with "no tresspassing" signs. America is a set of ideas, covered in the US constitution that are believed in by a lot of people. The US government is the embodiment of these ideas, the judiciary, the executive branch and the legislative branch. It is critical that the US government continues to function, hence COG.
to quote one website:
There is a reason the US government has spent billions of dollars on things like Cheyenne Mountain, STRATCOM, Mount Weather, Mount Pony, Raven Rock Site R, Boonsboro, Casper, Hagerstown, Mercerburg, CMAH, kneecap, etc.
Thankfully i didnt know anyone who died, and I send condolences to those who did. The world trade center has been a part of NYC for as long as I can remember it shakes my sense of permenance to think of it gone. it is one of those things that is always there.
..was. the past tense still doesnt come easily.
I dont think that blood pays for blood. I am saddened
by the events last tuesday, and i am saddened by the events which I am sure to come.
It is a strange feeling to mourn for humanity. To feel that the human race has gone mad.
Perhaps it may help those who are angry to view this webpage. It might remind us all what makes us great.
http://spinster.org/~david
Many might think that this is too lenient a stance. That it is giving in to terrorism. But let us remember the words of JFK, words which very well have prevented WWIII.
"Let no one see an offer to negotiate as a sign of weakness, Let no one fear to negotiate, nor negotiate out of fear.."
just some thoughts.
--------------------- Turn evil by smiling.
Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue.
And if he had been killed, what would that have done to the calm of the city?
We didn't elect Bush or Guiliani for their physical traits. We elected them for their minds, and for their stage presence. At the time the plane diverted, another was heading toward Washington, quite likely toward the white house. Please Jon, go to adequacy, we don't need your trolling here.
I understand your anger; I gave into anger myself two days ago. Fortunately, I grew up. Whoever did this, and whoever is harboring them knowingly, deserves swift justice. But only them. You are calling for the elimination of millions of people based on their religion. Sound familiar? You mentioned a country that tried to do that and needed a "cultural change". Maybe that was different because it wasn't "us"? There are over 25 million people in Afghanistan - a large percentage of them are women, who are not allowed to go to school, earn money or own property. They have no choice at all in their lives and will never have a choice. They have done nothing to you, or the US. Yet, you call for their deaths. I want to see the people responsible receive justice as much as you. I do not want it at the expense of our nations soul. David
In the past I have even defended some of your more outrageous statements but this goes too far. As someone who has served in the defence of this coutry for the majority of my adult life, I can tell you to a certainty that what Bush did is exactly what needed to be done. Protect the top policy makers so they can make the decisions they need to in case immediate response is necessary. Instead of worring about popularity points or getting his face in front of the TV, Bush and his policy team were busy coordinatinbg the first National Aviation grounding. First in the history of the US .EXACTLY THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE. THAT SINGLE POLICY DECISION ALONE PROBABLY SAVED MANY LIVES. I'm so upset by your clueless attitude Katz it almost makes me ashamed that I may very well risk my life in the coming months defending this country only to be spit on by the Katzites of this country. Katz you should be ashamed!
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
So you're saying that the attacks were warranted. Thanks for making your position perfectly clear.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
The reason the US is picked on is envy.
The US must choose between being the big man on campus as its wealth and power enable, or being the big fat kid, its decadence enables.
The big fat, peaceful kid gets picked on precisely because he doesn't retaliate. The little punk knows he can get away with smacking him, etc without having to deal with a serious reprisal.
The big man on campus pounds the punk into the ground, not because he can, but to deter the punk from trying again.
There is no middle ground.
When Bush was on TV, all I saw was a deer in the headlights, a small scared child reading off of a teleprompter. He did not inspire confidence. He did not speak from his heart; he read what his speechwriter wrote for him. I did not feel he was up to the task of dealing with such important tasks.
On the other hand, Colin Powell kicked ass during his numerous apperances. And this really is the thing that comforts me; Bush really does have a great set of advisors and a great cabinet.
Bush leads a group of great men; unfortunately, Bush himself is not a great leader of men.
Dear President Bush,
Thousands of citizens of the United States have suffered a
great tragedy, and we the fortunate survivors throughout the
world are in the first stages of shock, anger, and fear. It is a
very difficult time of mourning and we must begin to heal
now without delay.
I realize that in the current environment of powerful
emotions it may seem like an historic opportunity for
America and NATO to do whatever they want while feeling
fully justified, but I urge you and your associates in various
positions of power (read: responsibility) not to give in to
base and primitive emotions and to remember that you are
not hypocrites, but self-proclaimed people of faith, whether
Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or Wiccan, and therefore
must hold yourselves to a higher standard of conduct,
understanding, and forgiveness. Because of your notoriety
you must shine as beacons of peace and true justice for the
world.
The only right course for self-proclaimed men of faith is to
encourage America to renounce the kind of virulent hatred
that led to this attack, to denounce vengeance and to
discourage the ignorant stereotyping of groups of people by
their religion and ancestry.
I realize that it is easy, tempting, and the door is wide open
to proclaim vengeance and to be careless with hard words
to stir the masses. There is a lot of political mileage in such
modes, and surely you have recognized that in the midst of
this tragedy there couldn't be a more ideal political
opportunity for you and your affluent supporters in business,
politics, and media.
I would like to believe that you are not tempted by such
knowledge, and that you are better in your heart than a
political terrorist. That perhaps you are a breed apart from
the kinds of men who usurp power for its own sake and
who profligate destructive policies in the name of righteous
causes.
Prove yourself a breed apart, George. Stand side-by-side
with those whose names live for millennia rather than those
who live only for the political moment. Be a beacon of peace
in the world, and don't let the enormity of this tragedy
overwhelm your good heart. Everything has changed forever
for humanity. Are you up to the challenge the merciful God
now presents to you? Keep your eyes and heart open. I
believe in you, kid.
Sincerely,
Rev. Anonymous Coward
or something containing noxious, harmful, dangerous, brain-damaging chemicals.
I mean, what the FUCK is a sing-song monotone?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
But I think this qualifies as the most pointless piece of journalism ever, and proves Katz to be the idea-less hack we all suspected he was. Can't the guy give his blabbering mouth a rest for a few days as a mark of respect for the dead?
Where did I say I didn't have any sympathy for the victims? Obviously, I would rather it didn't happen at all. I'm just commenting on the choice of targets.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Your rant reads like a poorly written and politically biased movie review. Take your rhetoric somewhere else. Thanks.
I do not claim to have the "truth". I have what I believe, I have what I know, I have what I suspect, I have what I've heard. What fault do you find in what I said? Do you disagree that the people who died in the attacks were victims? Perhaps you're offended that I didn't also include the many of us who feel deeply and personally wounded by the attack, those of us who lost loved ones, really any citizen of our country. Perhaps you don't believe that our country could have done nothing from a foreign-policy standpoint to have prevented this. In any case, I am offended by your apparent naivete.
Steven N. Severinghaus
Don't be absurd. Read what I said. If you still see that attitude somewhere in my comment, read it again. Repeat this process until you either starve to death or get a clue. I don't appreciate your trivialization of the pain that I feel, little though it may compare to the pain of those more directly affected by the attacks.
Steven N. Severinghaus
Much as I hate to say it, these resources seem every bit as one-sided as President Bush's declaration of war against the terrorists.
Does anyone know of any balanced articles, that talk about Palastinian outrages against Israelis as well as (note: not instead of) Israeli and American outrages?
D
First of all, they didn't care about destroying New York's Symbolism. They were much more concerned with demolishing our lives and breaking us down financially. Second of all, I am saddened that anyone can even think about which other buildings they wish these bastards would have hit instead of the TWC. It's just pointless.
I'm already completely burnt out on the images, the constant barrage, the repeated video of the planes slamming into the towers, the 'expert' commentary.
Not to demean the event - but it seems like since OJ the media has just completely lost it. I don't know what Peter Jennings is snorting but he's been on the air when I get up and when I go to bed, since the event. Tonight while doing the dishes I overheard Connie Chung ask someone if it was true they could hear the screams of people over an intercom while the building collapsed. Thanks Connie.
Now I'm hearing the 'politicians' tell us to be patient, there is not going to be a quick solution, and that Bin Laden is difficult to find, yet I have a nagging feeling Bin Laden will be on TV next week being interview by Diane Sawyer...
I'm going outside and look at the stars for a bit and wish I was somewhere else in this small little galaxy.
While watching the news tonight, there was one quote that sounded ominous to me. I don't have it exactly, but it was something to the effect of the United States employing 'the full spectrum [speaker's emphasis] of its military might' in a retaliatory response.
/.ers' thoughts on these points.
It would seem like overkill to me, but it could be said to sound like the use of nuclear weapons has not been ruled out.
I know the United States has a long-standing 'no first use' policy, but under the circumstances I can't help but wonder if that will remain in effect. How quickly might Afghanistan (or whatever country he's holed up in) cough up bin Laden and his cronies, if they were threatened with an ICBM or two? Would the court of world opinion renounce or support such an action, in light of what has happened? Just looking for other
~Philly
I am not a supporter of President Bush, and I don't wish to push forward a political agenda.
But as much as I don't like the guy, I've got to say I did not find it at all reassuring to not hear much from him, or his advisors even.
I think during the entire day Tuesday I saw him twice. Once in the morning, once at night.
The only other person I saw from his administration was Karen Hughes.
I guess the point is, it scared me as an American. From talking to others at work, many feel the same way both Democrats and Republicans.
That's not to say I don't think he might be appropriately handling it. I've got to say if there is one man I would want as Secretary of State right now it's General Powell.
I want to see my leaders, it's important to me and it's disappointing that I saw far too much of him pushing his agenda of tax cuts and national missile defense, and now I don't see enough.
1968, El Al 707 was hijacked to Algiers. After a month, Israel cut a deal to exchange the hostages for Palestinian prisoners.
September 6, 1970, the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) organized the attempted "simultaneous hijacking of four airliners bound for New York" . On one of the targetted planes, an El Al flight, the pilot put the plane into a nosedive, an armed air marshall shot dead hijacker Patrick Arguello, and the leader of the hijacking Leila Khaled "was overpowered by male passengers and savagely beaten". When the plane arrived at London, Khaled was taken into British custody. However two successfully hijacked airplanes had been diverted to Jordan at a former British airfield, Dawson's Field. The PFLP also successfully hijacked a fifth plane to bring their total to hundreds of hostages, dozens of them British. What followed were dramatic secret negotiations between the PFLP, Jordan, Britain, the United States, and Israel, some of whose details are now known because of a British law requiring release of documents after 30 years. A deal was struck to exchange Khaled and other Palestinians for the hostages. The PFLP had won again. Or had it?
King Hussein proceeded to launch a war which drove out the armed Palestinian groups he had formerly welcomed on his soil. This war was what came to be reviled by the Palestinians as Black September.
On the other hand, Leila Khaled has claimed "The success in the tactics of the hijacking and imposing our demands and succeeding in having our demands implemented gave us the courage and the confidence to go ahead with our struggle."
You say that you think the U.S. is complicit because of its meddling excursions abroad. You go on to say that we do not have clean hands. If that doesn't say that you think we deserved what we got, then you're grossly abusing hyperbole.
This is a very old article that was written around the time of the Vietnam War (early 1970s?) that somebody dug out, edited, and is now making its
way around as chain mail. Hence all the emphasis on putting people on the moon, and the strange almost xenophobic ranting about other countries not helping the US in times of need. Don't spread it any further. The guy who wrote it has been long dead anyway.
For an older, but even more bizarre bin Laden link:
Check out USA Today
I found that a lot of the journalism was horrid. My favorite comments:
"Security in this building is so tight, how could this have happened?"
"It was terrible watching those people jumping out of the window. Why don't they have parachutes on those top floors?"
These were REPORTERS. Any others?
Having worked overseas I can understand how unimportant Australia is and how far we are away from the rest of the word so before you all trivialise my comments I would like to say is that a lot of Australians have sat up till 3 and 4 am (AEST) watching the coverage from CNN and abc. We care, we are hopping mad! A lot of Australians will loose friends and love ones over this. And today our government will debate enabling the ANZUS treaty which will put our country very close to a war footing.
Right will overcome these maniacs and their supporters..
God save the Queen and God bless America!
... although I also like C#..
Again you say that the U.S. deserved this attack. When are you going to admit that you think the attack is a just punishment for our foreign excursions?
While I like your attitude a lot more than that of all those guys running around yelling bloody revenge, I have a couple of problems with your post:
To start off, who exactly do you refer to as "the enemy"? If I read you correctly, the whole of the Islamic/Arabic world. Sorry, sweeping overgeneralization.
What's even worse is the total disregard for cultures other than our own your post shows - there is nothing inherently better in modern Western culture than in traditional Islamic culture (which was, as can not be pointed out often enough, a haven of learning and tolerance for centuries during which European crusaders lined their way to the holy land with corpses). Sure, there are extremists, and there's not the slightest reason to defend them and their sick actions, but these extremists are by no means a majority, and they are by far not the only thing that makes up Islamic culture.
I have a gut feeling that this sort of (sorry) cultural chauvinism is at the heart of much of the terror we have been witnessing during recent years...
frotz grue
hate brings more hate. one world, one people.
"Real Geeks use text editors"
And could someone moderate the parent up? If my post is worth +4, his damn sure is.
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By nightfall, CNN, MSNBC and the networks were moving away from the dramatic video and the indescribable scenes of wreckage and carnage and calling in the policy wonks and propellerheads who hide out in Washington caves until something like this happens. The focal point of all the airtime then shifted from the devastation in New York to the parsing and analyzing of the political, governmental and intelligence communities. For future reference, that may be a good time to turn off the tube and get online, the medium of individual stories, feelings and experiences.
On the one hand, I agree with Katz. When the talking heads start spouting, it's time to move on.
But then, when Katz starts spouting silliness like this...
President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day.
...I know it's time to get off the 'net as well, and move on with life.
I don't feel a profound sense of loss. And neither did many who I saw in the park yesterday, smiling, playign football, baseball and soccer. The ducks and swans were fine. Dogs walked the grass happily with their owners.
:p) to voluntarily surrender certain "detainment" rights, in exchange for immediate legal representation. It is a shame you will have to suffer for the sins of other Arabs, but that is the nature of life. Accept is as Allahs will, or in the less religous viewpoint, Life Sucks (usually, just wait for the good points, that's all there ever is.)
That's not to say that there was no loss, but that's being covered and pick apart on every major station. We don't need to dwell on it.
And we won't. Because at the end of the day, there's another 299.999 million people willing to rebuild, and a billion or two who would love to come to the US and help make it better.
The US will of course win. It cannot help but do so. The only question is whether it will do so without "glassing" the MidEast as others have referred to using nuclear weapons.
The US citizens - particularly those osf Arab descent, may lose freedoms for a time, which I oppose. But the Taleban and its associates will be killed. They will not die in glorious battle, or for their cause. They will simply cease to be. Allah may not support the methods used to eliminate them, but he likely will not care about them enough, as terrorists, to save their souls.
Religious terrorists are far worse than those like McVeigh. They practice the very sins against which they preach. If they are, in the end correct in their view of an afterlife, their's is likely to be most heinous indeed.
P.S. to all the Arabs out there. In 1993 there was an Arab cabbie driving around in NYC with a bumper sticker "F-ck Saddam." Most Americans don't blame you, but the media rarely cares about those with moderate views. My suggestion is to have Arab civil rights organizations work with your PR spokespeople (ala Sharpton
$ps PID TTY TIME CMD 666 tty1 00:00:00 binladen $kill -9 binladen or killall -9 terrorists In the above, the word terrorists is not targeted toward any religion or race. It simply means terrorists.
A coworker of mine mentioned this-- an indian curse on US presidents. Like Nostradamus, you have to take it with a grain of salt, but check out (some of) the results of a Google search:
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2000/Dec-03-Sun-200
http://www.comedyzine.com/tirade201.html
http://www.ifa-usapray.org/Features/Zero%20Year%2
I'm no historian, but I think more presidents than this died while serving, pushing this to the coincidence corner. Anyone with more facts?
The simple fact is that many of the leaders in the Islamic world simply treat their people like shit. They half to make up some enemy to distract from the fact that they are tyrants and any decent people would overthrow them. The peacfull state of Isreal is a perfict target - and likewise their strongest ally the USA.
The current assinations used in self defense by Isreal are a perfict example. The peace process was going along nicely until Airifat started to face political unstability - immeadiately Isreal started to be provoked. Lets make no mistake about it - it was not at all for religious reasons, or at all for moral reasons, but only because political islamic leaders started to feel threatened and needed an enemy to distract the people from the current corrupt powers.
In a way, it is America's fault. We should never have tolerated such an injust government as Saddam Husseins (spelling) to stay in power. He has more than anybody used the war mentality to distract the people from the fact that they are murdered and pillaged (by him) not the USA. But displacing him, and not tollerating others like him was politically costly so the USA simply put up with them, and managed it. - That was a fatal mistake that we paid for this tuesday.
$ps
PID TTY TIME CMD
666 tty1 00:00:00 binladen
$kill -9 binladen
or
killall -9 terrorists
In the above, the word terrorists is not targeted toward any religion or race. It simply means terrorists.
None of us were surprised
That should be "None of us was surprised." Think of "none" as a replacement for "not one."
The media are focussing on one thing, showing the western world terrible images of a wounded country. Everyone sympathises with the U.S., but who was symphatising when the U.S. committed crimes agains innocent civilians? Who was reporting those events?
We don't like to see that, we prefer to listen to media that confirm our perception of good and bad.
A few lines from an article I read on michaelmore.com:
We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing.
We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!
We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit.
We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.
If I recall correctly, how long sanctions last on Iraq is up to Iraq. The conditions for the lifting of sanctions are clearly stated in UN resolutions.
As for a US assult on Iraq, we are just patrolling no-fly zones. Zones established to prevent Saddam's ill treatment of people within his borders. We don't bomb civilian targets, only military ones. If those military targets are in civilian space, that is Iraq's doing. We only bomb to defend our patrols.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Good God, I'm actually defending Katz.
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Exposing the oppressive power relations that drive desperate people subordinate to the might of America's international might to lash out like this, at this moment, would be much too depressing. Also, if we really wanted to prevent this sort of thing, we wouldn't have built a world demarcated by cash and guns. We basically like it like this. An "enemy", a "cause", a reason to live and avoid those truly horrible things we dread above all else: peace, love and understanding. It's all great sport. The coming carnage ought to be covered on ESPN - appropriately a property of Disney.
Of course, the terrorists are no better. They knew all along that nothing was going to change by this and that all they've really accomplished is the establishment of a new baseline for the ambient level of violence. It's all a big game of tag to gratify the egos of hate-filled fools. War? Terror? I'm afraid we ain't seen nothin' yet. My suggestion? Since you've got no real choice, kick back, man the clicker and have a good ol' time. Just remember that everybody already knows how this particular game ends: with the last two humans dying with their hands around one another's throats.
Proteus7
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless." - Gandhi
www.jpost.com for one.
And the atrocities are plenty.
That's EXactly the foreign policy he's talking about.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
Resume your Katz-bashing on Monday.
Predictably, Jon continues to grind his new media vs. old media 'axe'. However, there's a new twist: in this case, at least, he admits that the old media has an impact that the new hasn't significantly blunted.
Typically, Katz frames the argument about the relative benefits of both old and new media outlets in terms of politicians/pundits vs. the man on the street. Presumeably, the Politicians and Pundits cannot present news sans bias, yet the man on the street can. His position has always struck me as simplistic and puzzling. I could give a damn about the media outlet type...the question is whether or not the outlet reports the news accurately, fairly, and professionaly. Katz himself is a perfect example of the "Man on the Street" that reports with bias. PBS's Newshour is a perfect example of "Old Media" that gets it right (see below). Dan Rather and the newsroom that he runs is an example of "Old Media" that shows regular bias despite their protestations to the contrary.
The sad fact is that Jon's brand of 'reporting' is a good example of one of the reasons that the "New Media" continues to lag behind the old. I've read his pieces off and on since 'Wired' and his bias and, frankly, immaturity, are often on display.
Furthermore, it's obvious that Jon frequently heeds his own call to "turn off the tube and get online, the medium of individual stories, feelings and experiences". He often has a poor grasp of facts, political realities, and the world in general. His slanderous use of the phrase "fled to various bunkers" to describe the President's activities after the incident is evidence that Jon has little understanding of the facts surrounding events nor the tremendous repercussions should the President have been killed. The destruction of the World Trade Center was a tremendous blow struck against US, and world, economics. The destruction of the President, (not George W Bush the man, mind you, whom it's obvious that Katz despises, but rather the President of the United States) would have been a tremendous blow against the US government. The combination of the two blows would result in chaos for this country, and the world. Katz's statement is silly, petty, and poorly thought out for so many reasons, too many to describe here. I'm not surprised by them, though: it's typical of him.
The "cool and natural" demeanor of Reporters that Jon calls "odd" I call refreshing and professional. I don't want a reporter sobbing, dazed, shocked, exhausted, angry, etc. I take it for granted that even the most hardboiled reporter is genuinely moved by recent events and, if they're capable of containing their emotions while doing their job, they're to be congratulated.
Anecdotes are nice and occasionally important. However, hard facts are what makes news, IMHO, and I want those facts presented rationally and dispassionately. I enjoyed Jon's first piece about the tragedy but I certainly wouldn't describe it as journalism: I was genuinely moved when he mentioned that he fell to his knees and prayed. However, that's anecdotal. Ultimately, I want facts, not emotions.
On-Line reporting, at least reporting unconnected with "Old Media" has a long way to go and attitudes like Katz's are at least in part to blame. Katz has crowed for years about the impending demise of "Old Media" and now, in today's piece, he's admitted that "old Media" still reigns supreme. I was surprised to see Katz admit that much: I'll be even more surprised when he admits that his brand of "reporting" is one of the reasons why "On-Line" journalism still eats the "Tube's" dust.
Replace Katz and his ilk with the On Line equivalent of Walter Cronkite, Robin McNeil, or Jim Lehrer, and things might change. Until then I'll still rely heavily on the "Tube" for news.
Now it's time to plug my favorite news program: PBS's "NewsHour". If you:
1. take News seriously and
2. despise the "O'Reilly Factor" method of news reporting
then do yourself a big favor and watch the NewsHour tomorrow afternoon.
There is too much talk of war. The rhetoric from the figures of authority and now the media is slowly taking on the tone of violent armed conflict. This may be what's needed... but first you need an enemy to launch the war against.
When pressed for details of the evidence against the alleged terrorists they reply, "We will not reveal details of how we are getting intelligence." I don't need the how, I need the what! I especially need this if the leader of the country is going to start a war over it. If we don't have this information then the leader is being handed carte blanche to do what ever they want in our name. The word "democracy" is being bandied about - it's time to show what this actually means by sharing this information.
The media machine is now catching up with the situation after initially being pushed onto their back foot. We now have the office slogan, America Under Attack. Soon we will have the official song (I have heard several candidates) and not long after this, the official images. I could do with fewer carefully crafted soundbites from the media commentators and a little more considered analysis of why this has happened, what this country (and the West in general) has done to provoke it, and how they intend to adjust the way they behave towards other countries to prevent it happening again.
quoteth the pratt
Let's kill lots of innocent people because they killed innocent people? Are you human? Or am I replying to TrollBot4001(TM)?
And creator of the attacker - Mr bin Laden is an American creation, much like Hussein and Noriega before him.
Sadly ironic how the thugs America supports overseas all come home to roost.
---
Book(n): Utensil used to pass time while waiting for the TV repairman
I have nothing further to add other than REDUNDANT, TROLLesque comments--things like: "John Katz is a self-serving asshole, who doesn't understand the people on this site, technology, or something that the rest of us haven't figured out a zillion years ago as we were pushing 8 bit boxes to the limit while Katz was masturbating to women lingeree pictures in the Sears catalog."
Yes, comments just like that.
Palenstinians never got any of my sympathy:
1) They teach thier children hatred from day ZERO in the name of thier bastard "religion" that brings destruction on 2000 years of civilisation and progress.
2) They shoot thier guns in the air and cry for more blood on TV.
3) They have wreacked havoc on countless nations with thier travesties hijacking planes, and bombing innocent people for decades now! I
Personally have had enough of this shit.
Enough is enough.
Time to start rounding them up and putting them someplace where they can't hurt people. Once we get rid of the governments, the countries and the organizations doing these sorts of terrorist activities, it should be a much quieter place.
The only people who will be left are those willing to settle thier differences at the table, peacefully, like civilised human beings.
Not too mention the fact that once those sorts of precedents are set, people, nations will THINK TWICE before invading, bombing or killing innocent people.
-hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Thanks to some local cops and firemen from my town, I just got to within a couple blocks of what the volunteers call "Ground Zero" -- the shockingly small pile of rubble that is all that is left of two of the biggest buildings on the planet. It's the perfect place to write about how the media -- new and old -- handled this story.
I'd like to respectfully suggest that there's less difference between the "new" and "old" media than you seem to want to think. I've been increasingly irritated by so-called reporters who seem to feel that it's necessary to get as close to "ground zero" as possible in order to report this story effectively.
Frankly, I didn't find any insights in this editorial that seem to require proximity to the disaster, nor pestering the heros who are trying to help, even if they are from your hometown. I'm certain that your intentions are good, and this is obviously a hugely important story that needs coverage. But if you're not working to clean up the mess, or recover victims, or help find survivors, or directly assist the heros who are doing those things, you really shouldn't be there. You may well find yourself in the way, or in danger, or endangering others, and for what?
I think this sort of thing is absolutely typical of the traditional media. And it essentially boils down to a judgement call: Will the story that you're expecting to get benefit the public enough to put yourself and others at increased risk? Too often, I'm afraid the answer is "no."
Now repeat after me: "Can you tell us how you feel after viewing this horrible tragedy?"
Earth to Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan:
Before you point fingers at the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, you might want to start with your own government, who engaged in some heavy-duty blood letting against Palestinian groups some years back.
one of my friends in IRC clued me into this one:
Check out NYC in Wingdings
If you love New York, your heart will break when the smoke clears. Something about the city is busted for good, no matter what the mayor says.
One has only to think of London under the blitz or the San Francisco earthquake to know that great cities can recover from great disasters.
According to seminal urbanologist Jane Jacobs, cities are inherently resilient to catastrophe. More damage is done by misguided urban planning.
The World Trade Center, as its name suggests, serves a national and international market. The demand for the products and services that the companies in the World Trade Tower provided is still there. Compared to the damage caused by hurricanes in Florida, the cost to rebuild is manageable.
If New York could thrive despite a crime rate that killed many more people than the terrorist over the last 10 years, it can survive this single event.
I suspect that the most lasting effect is that architects will reconsider the need for 110 storey buildings.
News said Congress is considering calling in the first round of the draft.....
If that is true, and the U.S. did something wrong, it would sure help if the terrorists explained themselves rather than hiding and laughing to themselves. As it is, without being given a reason for the attact, we might as well assume that these guys simply don't like tall bulidings.
I have not yet been to NYC. I lived there for 5 years. I only left in the last few months. I am going to head up there tonight for a meeting with my employer, and to see this for myself.
In the meantime, I have spent the last couple of days capturing video and stills from CNN and MSNBC. They still do not have a good archive of their own media on their web sites. I have put the captures up on my web site at http://www.boredom.org/. I also have my comments about the what we must do moving forward. They are sparse and certainly incomplete, but they capture what I feel are the most critical points
When I return from New York, I will no doubt have a lifetime worth of mental images of how this event has changed New York. I do not mean the changes to the sky line that people are constantly talking about. I mean the way it has changed the people of New York.
The skyline is superficial and can be rebuilt. New Yorkers, while often regarded as hard-nosed and insensitive, are some of the most real and honest people I have met. They may try to rip you off, but they will rarely pretend to be something they are not. Many of the best people I have met in NYC, the city's Bravest, have died trying to save others in this tragedy. I fear that the psychological damage may take far longer to repair than the collateral.
I would not know if that is true or not, but according to this site, they passed 1991 footage showing the palestinians dancing.
Anyone with better info can deny/confirm this ?
The Story is here
David
this is a completely ridiculous statement. I could say:
If I recall correclty, how long the US wants to live under fear of terrorist attacks is up to America. The coniditions for stopping the attack are understood throughout the world.
You fully accept the Govt line on all this, that i am surprised you post hear. Do you question anything??
You are incredibaly stupid.
America is not the 'controler' of the islamic world, we have practialy no control whatsoever, and are widely reviled by a lot of people there.
Russia is in no position to do anything right now. They have tons of oil, but no capablity whatsoever to manage it.
Oh, and they tried and failed to take over Afghanistan. Are you so sure we can do it?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Oh yes, one more thing. The images of Palestinians celebrating in Israel you have seen on the news are most likely fake. In a manner of speaking, anyway. They are from 1991 and unrelated to anything going on currently.
... you imply the Palestinians are complaining about old footage. Funny, let's see ...
Palestinian Authority threatens camera crews covering celebrations
Oh but wait, an anonymous internet website that offers no proof is more credible than our corporate eviiiiil media, no ? Please.
- sigs are for wimps.
Airforce 1 is touted as having the best in communications systems so that the president can do his part to run the country after all the nice bits have been blown into radioactive rubble. Why didn't we hear from him then?
DFing. They wanted to be as quiet as possible moving around in a big sky. IIRC, they didn't even let reporters with them use cell phones. My ham buddies and I have gotten very good at DFing and we use toys made of PVC pipe and wooden dowels. A buddy has a nice circuit built on copper clad board which implements a doppler device and he has it interfaced to GPS. We hunt here in Austin one Saturday night a month and then go eat. Geek fun. But we're just losers compared to the pros.
So you had an unknown enemy jumping several places at once in a highly coordinated fashion. Their capabilities were unknown, but it was clear that they were highly motivated and out for blood. There are grad level courses on this and tons of think thanks that study all this I'm sure. They did the right thing...
N: Black skull and crossbones
Y: Star of David
C: Hand giving "thumbs up" sign
Kinda freaky.
~Philly
Windows Ex Platform
And to stop now and say "maybe we should think about why we were attacked..." just encourages the idea that if America does something you don't like, kill a few thousand of their people to make them change their course.
There is a less violent way to have your voice heard. Whether that be through non-violent protests, publicizing points-of-view, or bribing and lobbying your them to change their policies, there is way.
You listen to Dead Kennedy's also? cool.
I heard the conspiracy of covering up the thousands upon thousands dead in Panama also. I even saw a video showing maybe 100 casualties all in all (claiming the piles to be thousands.)
In the end however I was largely unconvinced. Maybe you could provide some more evidence? BTW, Panama has been a happier, prosperous *democracy* since then that even was given control of the Panama Canal.
However maybe when we get bombed to oblivian for our crimes we can all go live in the hemp utopia where we have all the nutritious food, strong rugged clothing, paper and feul all from a renewable nitrogen fixing resource!
No wonder certain people look forward to the end of civilization.
Thank you. The Katz flames really could take a break and I would not complain.
sulli
RTFJ.
does it really matter what the anchors think and act when people are dead? feeling's from the inside, not whatever you tell them to feel. what the hell does information age has to do with this? next thing you know you'll be blaming the internet for this. oh oh.. or maybe it's the transister's fault. maybe it's slashdot's fault. you seriously have isues. why dont you save your shit and shut up. sometimes it's better for you not to say or write anything - especially in the situation right now - dont act as if you know everything; you're offending a lot of people and making matters worse
my blog
We must accomplish this task in the time-honored manner: wholesale slaughter of civilian populations.
I certainly hope that the entire thing was satire...
Witty, +1
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
I have never understood the constant Palestinian DEMANDS. With the repeated Israeli victories their behavior resembles the knight in "Monty Python's In Search of the Holy Grail". He has his arms and legs cut off but keeps yelling "COME BACK AND FIGHT LIKE A MAN!" Adjustment to others and compromise seems to be a missing set of life skills.
Golda Meir's decision was for Israel to resort to assassination of those responsible for organizing and carrying out the attack, an operation later referred to be the media as the "Wrath of God". Calahan concludes that method which worked was for Mossad to cut loose from bureaucratic restrictions a mostly independent operating team organized similar to current US special forces. This team was given a list of potential targets, a directive to not harm innocents, and autonomy to go hunting.
I am concerned that it would be simply impossible for any current United States government to authorize similar autonomy despite the necessity of success.
One key difference between then and today is that today's targets might be less inclined to be in Europe, an area in which it was relatively easier for the Israeli assassination teams to operate in than say Afghanistan or Pakistan for Americans. Calahan's thesis also mentions an operation where the proximity of Israel to Lebanon enabled a massive force of dozens of Israeli commandos to kill three major targets and about a hundred Palestinian guerillas.
In another disturbing article The Atlantic Monthly raises the issue of whether the unwillingness and/or inability of United States intelligence agencies to conduct longterm missions to penetrate local populations in areas such as Afghanistan might make any effective action against Osama Bin Laden's organization impossible. The United States doesn't even train agents in the local languages let alone assign agents to become experts specializing in a country.
This is not a time to point fingers at ourselves, I was disgusted last night watching some asshole rip into one person after another who could be connected with this act, from airport officials to intelligence agency members.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
I don't think I am qualified to answer your question but for those interested there some links to info on steganography: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3
All of this is based on the premise that Israel is an oppressor, has stolen land unjustly, etc.
Please keep in mind that this land, specifically the West Bank and the Golan Heights and Gaza Strip, was not in Israeli control until the Six-Day War in 1967. Prior to this, it was in control of Jordan. No-one is asking why didn't Jordan create a Palestinian state from 1948-1967. As far as why Jordan was involved, Israel asked Jordan not to get involved, and Jordan responded with an artillery barrage on west Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv.
Also, this land was in control of the British from 1918 to 1947, and before that it was in control of the Ottoman Turks for 500 years.
You can also go back further to a part of this story which, surprise surprise, most of the other countries in this region do not want to discuss.
When Israel was created, a Palestinian state was supposed to be created at the same time. However, the Arab nations rejected this, and the leaders at the time told the Palestinians to flee Israel (this was before they all declared war on Israel in 1948). They assured the Palestinians that they would drive the Jews out of Israel, and once they were done they would let the Palestinians return and have the whole country to themselves. People keep blaming Israel for all the Palestinian refugees, but a lot of the blame should go to the Arab nations that forced this issue.
Most other Arab nations do not like the idea of a Jewish nation, and it is in their interest to spread propaganda blaming Israel for everything.
Israel is a democracy, and they have tried to make it a secular nation. Arabs and Christians are able to serve in the Knesset, and the religious locations under Israeli control are open to everyone. When the Arabs were in control of some of these landmarks they were off-limits to any non-Moslems.
-AC
Bin Laden is not an American Creation; he might have received training in Afghanistan, but that was after he took his millions to fight the Soviets. I am aware that CIA training can be horrific (the School of the Americas torture manual, for instance) but I find it hard to believe we trained him convince people to fly planes full of innocent people into large buildings.
Dependence on Middle Eastern oil is poor from a long term economic standpoint and from a national security standpoint(i.e. if all the costs of Middle eastern oil were passed on to the consume in an obvious way, little Middle Eastern Oil would get used). We need to really consider our long term options here. Part of the problem is that the inflation that started in the 60's and 70's has made long term infrastructural projects more difficult than they were in the early part of the 20th century when private individuals could borrow money at 3% interest.
The simple fact is that the funds that have been pumped into the Middle East by the biggest international transfer of wealth has _not_ made the Middle East more stable or the US more
secure.
Killing Arabs here is a bad idea. Instead, the US should cease its addiction to Middle Eastern oil and adopt a truly neutral policy in that regions conflicts. I suspect that if this were to happen, the technical skills the Israeli's have would be much more appreciated by their Arab neighbors
and the whole world would be a much nicer place.
His statement was ridiculous? I think you need to check the dictrionary. It was a simple statement of fact. The UN has, in writing and through much fairly open deliberation, given Iraq a set of very specific things they must do to end the sanctions. On the other hand an unknown group which is angry at us for unknown reasons killed thousands of people without warning and without remorse.
Drawing parallels between terrorism and negotiated economic sanctions is the ridiculous thing here.
jello.
aka aron.
It is rare in such a time to read something both so humorous and poignant, thank you...
....d
i have walked down train tracks, walked down train tracks, drunk at 3 a.m. it not magic, it's no great trick, w
We need to stand behind our president whether he reads from a prompter or not. Not only is he a person of the utmost authority in the US, but a symbol of our freedom. We need to stick beside him and not speak harshly of him, even if you didn't vote for him. He's our president and our leader.
Too bad the speech was lame and he looked like a deer in the headlights. He looked better earlier in the day when he was speaking off the cuff between airplanes rather than staring at a teleprompter; the various world leaders that CNN and BBC were showing were mostly speaking from notes or without notes, and looked much more genuine. I agree with Katz that Giuliani was doing a good job of acting like a leader, and like a mayor, and reacting like an actual human (though almost getting killed like he did will certainly get your attention.) While Bush just didn't.
On the other hand, Bush at least didn't go off on a "we'll kick your ass" rant against anyone specific before they've really identified which Bin Laden was responsible for it; we're better off without that kind of warmongering.
Note on my political biases - I don't like either of these politicians - Giuliani's a fascist who substantially increased government power by inventing extensive abuses of RICO and by pushing poor people and non-"respectable" people out of the visible parts of NYC. But he's doing a great job here. Bush never struck me as being Presidential material - he's a frat boy along for the ride on the coattails of his despicable but competent father and doing whatever the military-industrial complex wants; Jeb Bush would have been a much better choice. And I'm not really impressed here. Bill Clinton would have done a much better job - he may be a sleazy used-car dealer, but he's a really really competent politician. I'm not sure how well Al Gore would have done - he'd be more genuine than the other two, and I'd guess he'd be more likely to end up looking like a leader than Bush, but he could also blow it pretty badly. I'm glad I'm not stick in their shoes this week.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The only motivation that they've ever mentioned so far is hatred of America. Unfortunately, they will undoubtedly succeed at their real goal. Aside from causing pain.
The real goal is radicalization. Hopefully, the US will become radical. We will lash out. If they're lucky, we'll lash out at a pharmeceutical plant, but even if we lash out at the proper people, we will do so with extreme force. This will radicalize the people that sympathize with the terrorists. And that is the real goal.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
I'm no medical expert, but I thought the big problem with asbestos was normal prolonged exposure. Especially in the construction industry, people were breathing it in every day of their lives. Those are the people that first developed cancer from abestos. Since we don't have as much of it, and people are running around with masks on, it shouldn't be a problem.
The WTC is a big target, but at 8 miles away, even 4 miles away, you can't tell that's where you're going. It won't even look very large at that distance. Remember, the windows (except the cockpit) all face sideways. But suppose you realize where you're headed in the last 4 miles/30 seconds. Is that enough time to confer, decide, overwhelm several hijackers, bust a door down and wrest control away? I think not.
Add that to the fact that, in the past, hijackers want money or asylum or whatever. I'm sure airline employees have been trained to cooperate, get the plane down safely, ensure the safety of the passengers, and let a anti-terrorist squad handle the hijackers. This is what these guys took advantage of.
Hell, I suppose it's possible that only the guy flying knew they were a suicide mission, maybe the others thought it was a traditional hijacking ("traditional hijacking"? What a sick irony, but I can't think of a better term.). That way they only needed 4 suicidal pilots, not 20 suicidal guys.
A witty saying is worth nothing - Voltaire
Don't life insurance companies have an interest in having this called an 'act of war?' The last time I checked, my life insurance policy won't pay out because of acts of war, $DIEITY, etc.
I've heard rumors about the advertising rates on some of the major networks...mind you, just rumors, but it's been said that the rates are nearing Superbowl-level slots for primetime on some of the news channels.
First the insurance companies, next the TV stations...who else will try to profit out of this?
Just my thoughts/$.02 worth.
I disable sigs...do you?
Like most of us, I sometimes wonder if Katz's articles shouldn't just be modded "0, Troll" and ignored.
/. account that way. Get off the band wagon. If you don't like the post, say so with facts, not by attacking the author's name in your reply.
Apparently it's getting cooler by the day to keep trashing Katz posts. You have the option to NOT read his articles, and you can even configure your
Nonetheless, to feel the need to criticize the man for doing his job is the mark of a small man indeed.
Didn't you just do the EXACT same thing by criticizing Katz for doing his job?? While I don't agree with everything he says, He makes valid points and I enjoy his articles. I'd like to hear your responses and replies to his post. I don't give a rat's ass if you like him or his articles.
- give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe...
The Kartoum (perhaps as driected by their training) has bombed a Red Cross building in Sudan. Source: http://www.makemeyourvoice.com/1.htm
The US is hardly innocent, but they know better than to do their own dirty work.
I find it funny that very
little media has given us a detailed
background of the history and possible
motivations of the terrorists.
I find it perfectly natural in light of the fact no one has yet admitted responisibility, much less presented their reasons.
Until they do, attempts to attribute motivations will be, at best, speculation, and at worst hateful diatribes by people trying to cash in on this tragedy to further their own political aims.
I'd like to come up with an intelligent and witty rebuttal... but I just can't. Somebody please put this post out of our misery.
Rykard
Breaking the Internet one standard at a time, since 1999
So basically you are saying the US and Europe should prepare a wide ranging war against 1.3 billion muslims. What do you suggest we do with these people? Kill them? Enslave them? Force them to "convert"? What exactly?
I'm sorry but it is pretty obvious from your words that you are a religious fanatic. Your God is hate and hatred is one of the worst human frialties. Your hatred is the same hatred that was in the hearts of the people that caused so many innocent people to die. Your hatred of anyone who does n't follow your hatred is completely totalitarian and in complete contradiction to what America is supposed to stand for.
I am a muslim, I believe in God, there is no need for the armed forces to invade another country there are plenty of muslims here. I can give you my address, and the addresses of other muslim people, come and kill us, I don't want you to send the army I want you to come. I'ill give you a knife, you can be like the people who hijacked the plane, I won't even retaliate, I will be like an animal for you to slaughter.. Because surely thats how you see me, as an animal, non-human. I'm sure though that your hatred wont be quelled as you cant find peace in your self by exacting more hatred.
All people want is inner peace, regardless if they are religious or not. A person at peace with themselves won't harm others.
I hope people reading this will realise that hatred (and other human defects) does not have religious, ethnic, national or cultural boundries. I hope people think twice before we start to segragate entire groups of people into good and evil because all this does is foster hatred and if we cant even see what hatred brings in this troubled time, I'm affraid we never will.
Yes. The US _free_ press is all magically censoring your "reality" while the wonderful free "Arab press" is providing you with the Truth.
1) They teach thier children hatred from day ZERO in the name of thier bastard "religion" that brings destruction on 2000 years of civilisation and progress.
In the name of their "bastard" religion? No in the name of their homeland that was wrested from them. I think you'd get pissed if the people that lived in your house before you came back and took it from you. I understand being {upset,distraught,hurt,angry,confused,etc} but think before you speak.
Time to start rounding them up and putting them someplace where they can't hurt people...
Don't tell me, the Holocaust was a fake right?
The only people who will be left are those willing to settle thier differences at the table, peacefully, like civilised human beings.
But will you still be able to call yourself a human being after slaughtering innocent people?
Not too mention the fact that once those sorts of precedents are set, people, nations will THINK TWICE before invading, bombing or killing innocent people.
Yes, it just ups the ante. I'll see your act of genocide and raise you a tactical nuke at The Mall in DC.
By saying stuff like this and propogating it you do nothing but spread more hatred and bigotry. It's exactly those things that have put us in this tragic position.
And to think, just under a year ago there was what seemed like the promise of peace in the Middle East.
And Ireland too for that matter.
-Mark
"The doctor never panics."
I'm sure that after the coverage is over, many of these journalists go home and sob. Journalists can be very detached in time of crisis. It lets them get their job done. Afterward, they are given the luxury to feel their own emotions.
Journalists are tinkerers. We are curious. We want to know what is going on. Think of the greater panic if people would have been unable to find out exactly what happened. Sure this is horrific, but knowing the extent of the horror is the first step in comming to terms with it.
-Peter
. Penguins Surely Ca
I think that Mr Katz has made a mistake about President Bush's 'singsong monotone'.
I used to be a doorman and I have hit a lot of people and thrown them out. Mostly they yell and swear and threaten with anything they can think of. A few, a very few fortunately, use just the same tone as President Bush did and they are the ones who come back when you have finished your shift and, well in one case, beat up my friend so badly he had eight broken fingers, a broken jaw, two cracked ribs and a broken arm. He never worked on the door ever again. Another acquaintance got an iron bar across the back of his head. Someone even got shot (most unusual here in Australia) as he walked out of the club when his shift finished.
That singsong monotone is the most dangerous thing that I have heard for a long time and I am worried that all that suppressed anger might lead the US into something they can't win and can't leave.
Afganistan has been the key that broke three empires already (Moghul, British and Russian). We could have a lot bodybags coming back home if prudence isn't used.
Solve this problem by declaring peace, not war. There are many innocents in Afghansitan, just as in the US. To slaughter them is to behave in the same way as the terrorists. So, don't declare war on Afghanistan, declare peace;
Get the UN support (would be easy at the moment) to invade Afghanistan with a "peace" force. Announce to Afghanistan and the world that the purpose of this is to have a free and open election to elect a government. It is unlikely that it will re-elect the Taliban. Admit that this is a violation of national sovereignty and say in recognition of that fact, schools, hospitals and roads will be built for their use before they leave.
Instead of enemies, you will have made friends - and picked up Bin Ladin as small change.
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
No.
They were attacking a free society; one whose generous liberties are at odds with their view of what is right. They were out to dammage or destroy a way of life that makes a mockery of their rigid, authoritarian views. And if, as a result of their actions, we curtail our own freedoms -- change our way of life, then their attack will have succeeded, their objective will have been attained.
By Jerusalem Post Staff
JERUSALEM (September 14) - The Foreign Press
Association expressed deep concern yesterday over life
threats made to journalists by the Palestinian Authority, after
PA security personnel on Tuesday tried to prevent photo
and video coverage of a rally in Nablus where hundreds of
Palestinians celebrated the terror attacks in New York and
Washington.
The videographer, on assignment for Associated Press
Television News, was summoned to a PA security office
and told that the material must not be aired. Calls in the
name of the Tanzim militia, an armed group associated with
Yasser Arafat's Fatah group, warned him he would be held
responsible, and made what he interpreted as threats on his
life.
Several Palestinian Authority officials spoke to AP in
Jerusalem urging that the material not be broadcast. Ahmed
Abdel Rahman, Arafat's cabinet secretary, said the
Palestinian Authority "cannot guarantee the life" of the
cameraman if the footage was broadcast.
The cameraman then requested that the material not be
aired. In light of the danger, APTN has not released the
footage of the rally in Nablus.
The protest by AP Chief of Bureau Dan Perry said, "I ask
the assurances of the Palestinian Authority that you will
protect our journalists from threats and attempts at
intimidation, and that no harm would come to our freelance
cameraman from distribution of the film.
"We strongly condemn the direct threats made against local
videographers by local militia members, and the attitude of
Palestinian officials who made no effort to counter the
threats, control the situation, or to guarantee the safety of the
journalists and the freedom of the press," said the FPA.
"We hold the PA fully responsible for the safety of each and
every journalist operating within their areas, especially those
who were filming and covering Tuesday's events in Nablus."
Asked by telephone about the allegations of harassment,
Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said:
"We deny that."
(AP contributed to this report.)
I'm not convinced it's the perfect path to peace. It may be the easiest however. Obviously, though, the US culture is the same one that has incensed some group of people enough to carry out such horrifying attacks. These attacks were NOT carried out by uneducated fanatics that didn't and, more importantly, couldn't see what they were doing was wrong. They knew full well the implications and the horror. Yet it was still worth it.
For our culture to be so out of touch, so concerned with itself, so focused on all the trappings of everyday that we didn't realize the danger we were in... well that is a sick culture. Like the family and friends of individuals who go on a massacre of innocents, we missed the warning signs. Actually "missed" might be the wrong word. We didn't care, the suffering of others at our hands wasn't interesting enough to pull in the necessary ratings to the big media networks. Instead we have O.J. and Princess Diane. We see more minutes of advertisements and product placements than world news.
So, sure, we can fight them culturally... we can make them just like us.
Perhaps ignorance is bliss.
Then again, maybe we need to change before we can help anyone else.
I also agree with the posters above me, You my friends (LinuxLudite, [amorphis], and Reality Master 101) are fucking idiots
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101010b 2Ah 52o
Thanks Jon. I used to have my /. prefs set to exclude you from my home page. I heard you wrote some interesting things the other day about this event. So I went back and have read your postings.
You've again demonstrated why I don't read your babbling. Back onto the killfile you go...
OK, I'll admit my first reaction to the events was 'wow! a plane flew into the WTC! I gotta watch that again and again!' And thanks to TiVo, brought to you by the Linux OS, I did. I did this with the footage of people falling from the buildings too, I admit.
I'm not so ashamed to look back and admit this now, because before the dust even settled folks started looking at how this tragedy can benefit them. In Indiana they raised the price of gas to $5 a gallon to take advantage of scared suckers. A local grocery store urges you to shop there because a percentage will go to the rescue efforts, or the families, or the children, or some such. Scam artists are burning up the phone lines begging for donations for the families of firemen lost in the wreckage.
I was watching the news, and the anchor is getting all misty-eyed about the flag being raised out of the wreckage, saying 'this is our Iwo Jima'. Well, we had 'our Pearl Harbor' a couple of days ago, I guess the logical next step is 'our Hiroshima' before we get thru the weekend. Stay tuned for the details.
The anchor then introduced a chee-zee poem written and recited by a student of a teacher who perished in the disaster. It was accompanied by 'stirring' music.
Wow, we Americans know how to put on a show. We know how to use death and mayhem to further our careers. We can know indulge ourselves in a bit of jingoism and racism, too. Woo-hoo! In bars across america country musicians are furiously penning what they hope will be 'our 'Proud To Be An American, where at least I know I'm free by Lee Greenwood', while outside the bass player and drummer beat the crap out of an Indian student they've mistaken for a 'rag-head'. I need to turn the TV off. We all do. If you can in some way do something that helps directly, do it. But spare us the schmaltz and cheese.
Thank you very much, goodnight.
What an ignorant post. All we have to do is bombard them with culture and they'll see how superior we are and then they'll wanna be just like us! It worked in Berlin, right?
Christ.
The statement that George Bush "fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day" is rather disingenuous and short-sighted.
Which part of that is wrong? He did flee to various locations (which I can only assume contained bunkers for his safety), and he did seem to shrink throughout the day. The first is fact, the second is a statement of opinion backed up widely by popular opinion, buffered by a "seemed by." You've got no gripe here, and nor does anybody else that's been posting and bitching about this statement.
-Waldo
Does anyone know if the 6 stories of mall and subway below ground level caved in? If so, that's a lot space for rubble.
Well, the planes did crash! You do the math.
-Waldo
sunset in israel was at 6:50pm on the 11th. israel is 7 hours ahead of EST.
if the video was taken around 11[am] our time (which seems to be just about the right time). that would make it 6 pm their time
and thus... sunset....
NOT around 3pm as some of the videos show.
So, either CNN knows how to defy Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion.....
Or they reused at least *some* old footage.
Complexity Happens
No, the way to put it to rest is to kill the people that did it and everyone who lent them aid, as should have been done a long time ago.
We could have got real with Bin Laden after he took out those military barracks a few years ago. Instead, we postured and blew some holes in the sand with a few cruise missiles. Now we see the price of half-hearted strategy and wishful thinking when it comes to implacable enemies.
Next time it will be a lot worse. Think missing Russian nukes, or Anthrax. This isn't a fight we can avoid, as much as we wish to. It's time to finish it now before the price is even more than we can bear. And it's time for Moslems everywhere to decide which world they want to belong to.
I just spotted this at the BBC's website. Quote: "Two Americans, two Australians and six Germans are being held in detention in Kabul, charged with spreading Christianity. If found guilty they could face the death penalty. " Apparently they've been held for some time, but our wonderful U.S. media failed to mention it before as far as I can tell. The link is as follows:
i a/ newsid_1543000/1543135.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_as
'President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day, [and then] Bush got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter.'
I'm going to have to agree with Katz that Bush really didn't set an example that I feel is true for Americans. However, I have to wonder what any of us would do if we where in President Bush's shoes? I couldn't honestly answer that question.
I would like to think that I could be as brave as Mayor Guiliani, but I really might be as cowardly as Bush. Now I am not supporting Bush's actions of hiding out in his bunkers gathering information, and making small comments to the American people. Let's take a second and think.
'Would I put myself in the line of fire? Or would I run and hide?' A tough choice to make, I would hope most of us do not follow Bush's lead, and that we follow Mayor Guiliani's actions.
The Tweak Files: Sanity is for t
The key sign that Jon Katz has poor journalistic sensibility is that whenever he writes, we wind up spending so much time talking about Jon Katz rather than the issues. I believe in giving everyone a chance, but when someone shows a repeated inability to achieve a professional result (in this case, successfully leading readers into meaningful discussion of the issues at hand) then that person has to be replaced. This is not an attempt to troll, nor is it a personal criticism of Mr. Katz. It is a professional criticism. Mr. Katz does not seem to appreciate that controversy for the sake of controversy is not valuable journalism. An appeal to Rob and Jeff: please find someone who appreciates the same standards you do, because Jon Katz does not maintain those standards.
Mayor Guiliani of New York clearly rose to the tragedy. President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day. Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue. Bush got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter. At least that was the image that TV brought of us of these two very different leaders.
my god, so katz says guiliani was near a place where there was "shooting"? he might as well have said guiliani=god, bush=dogpoo for all the maturity of that statement. A time when more consideration should be shown towards safety, especially of public officials, and patriotism than there has been need for in what, sixty years, is not the time or place for denigrating the president of the country. i'm a lifetime democrat for pete's sake, and even i recognize when the safety of the president is a wee bit more important than some cavorting around the rubble of a mass grave for the PR boost it gets from irrational touchy-feely types who will be the ones cowering should this turn out to be more than what already has happened. I'm going to spend the next few minutes trying not to be sick.
and that's it, i'm going back to bed.
peace,
laura
Be a moderator, not a brick.
The difference between loved ones, huge copper statue, and the concept of liberty itself is that you can always put the statue back together again. There is no way to destroy the concept of liberty here without putting every last countryman into bondage and taking their children to be educated elsewhere.
I want you to stop typing for a few minutes and think about the impossibility of undoing the damage we've suffered Tuesday. Don't type another paragraph until you realize that there are no more than 2 degrees of separation between you and a loved one who was hurt or killed.
That is all.
First we have JonKatz, using this tragedy as another oppurtunity to bash the president. The President had a chance to hide in NORAD but he didn't. The only reason he didn't immediately go back DC is because of his secret service and because he could have been in imminent danger. The last thing we need is a dead president. Was the NY Mayor a terrorist target? I doubt that. He went back to DC on Tues afternoon and that's good enough. It's horrible that people are using this as an opportunity to bash people they don't like. I'm sick to my stomach of people who only care about their political agenda. The man cares. Almost all Americans care. That is what is important.
Then to make matters worse on these boards, we have people, whether they know it or not, who are trying to justify the attacks. They are essentially saying "the US brought this on to itself." Well, GWB didn't bring it on. Those innocent people in the WTC didn't bring it on. So who did? The terrorists and their supporters did as well as anti-american propoganda which some on the board seem to be following. Yes, whether you think so or not, you are in a way trying to justify the deaths of thousands and that is a tragedy in itself.
We have a lot of misrepresentation of facts running around the boards and a lot of conspiracy theories. And even if they were true, it doesn't justify, by any stretch, what happened Tuesday. America is far from being an "evil" nation as many have suggested. In the past few days alone, we've seen that. And is it really because of Iraq that some Muslims hate us? Ofcourse not. It's because of our way of life and the fact that our nation is so powerful yet is not Muslim, that along with our occasional support of Israel.
And what about Israel? Ever since the creation of Israel. They've been constantly attacked by Muslim nations. Those people, including most of the Palestinians, do not want to live peacefully with the Jews. They want to wipe them out. I think we should help them because they will be wiped out without our help.
You all have a right to your opinion but I don't have to agree and neither does anyone else. That should go without saying.
"Everybody said they were shocked, but nobody seemed to be. "
Did you actually listen to any of the politicians or journalists? Rudy Juliani (sp?) was almost in tears. Same with most of the anchors. One anchor was genuinely shocked when he heard that people were jumping off the WTC. They have to maintain composure when they are on TV. They tried to. But like all people they couldn't. Watch the news when it is happening instead of writing Slashdot articles before you make such statements (even though I liked the one you wrote on Tuesday because it felt heartfelt).
JK
This is serious s[tuff|hit]. We need to vanquish the ENTIRE threat. Be warned though, we must be prepared. Not only for civilian victims in war zones, but more attacks in America resulting in the loss of life. My prayers are with us all.
My sig speaks for me...
[unclesam@usa
Please consider stopping by to read and sign the Internet Sympathy Card at http://isc.wwe.com/ If we get enough signatures and comments we will print and distribute the card in areas impacted by this tragedy.
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, it's worth sharing. Widespread but Only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial Broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television Commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
America: The Good Neighbor.
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.
None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its Remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war mongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines Except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even Consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the Store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not Pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down Through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of Other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned Tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing With their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that The rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.
I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you Can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends Until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this,
I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Kill em ALL!
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
There's a difference between inspiring retribution, and deserving retribution.
Where is your proof that that footage is ten years old?
No unauthorized use. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
Then you're foolish. The CIA is very much into training contacts to inspire a mindset that will accomplish our foreign goal. If we want to kick a leader out or overthrow a Government, this means terrorism. We've done this in most of our recent military campaigns, from Vietnam on.
This is probably the best post I've read all day. When I went to class this morning I walked by a group of students. Yeah, I overslept and was late but what they were talking about caught my ear. As I stopped their conversation reached a point where they were talking about invading the middle east and just killing everyone. Not a one of them spoke against it. I want retribution as much as the next guy, but farcking have proof before you point a finger. Retaliation is nothing if its blind.
= They say "guns don't kill people, people kill people", but I think the gun helps. -Eddie Izzard =
1bin laded was not the primary recipient of cia aid; that was well covered in the media.
2 we obviously didn't kill enough of the towel headed bastards; If we did, this wouldn't have happened.
3 Are you telling us that afganistan made pharmacuticals for central africa? That's laughable.
If the tv images of palestinians we saw were 10 years old, why was that van only 4 years old?
and, why were they were mentioning the world trade center by name in the translation?
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
Only the naive apply right and wrong to international affairs - think instead of your interests and who is for and against them.
For all those individuals who are not aware of the situation, there are numerous executive orders
and laws(the biggest one passed in 1947, IIRC the National Security Act) which lay out and govern the functioning of the government in a state of emergency.
In Bush's case, he is practically required to keep moving until such time that the emergency is over. Again IIRC, during any instance where there are large number of government officials in a small area such as a State of the Union Address,
at least one of the four top officials in the chain of command is taken to another location...just in case.
Amazing how I learned this back in Junior High in Civics class and yet most of the media and the obviously superior and brilliant John Katz are not aware of these simple facts.
For a some discussion visit Continuity of Government - United States Nuclear Forces.
Newsmax has a discussion of accused spy Hanssen allegedly revealing these plans to the Russians located here.
There is a short blurb located here.
CF
Hindsight is 20/20, Katz.
Bush did what he was supposed to do - if he had a crystal ball and could tell that he was safe, then maybe he would have gone to the White House or New York sooner.
Since you're so quick to point out the wonders of technology, did you stop to think that Bush could run this country from his bathroom if he really wanted to? Air Force One, SAC in NE, even the AFB in LA, these are all places with advanced communications gear - you don't have to pull some strings with your cop buddies and stand on a pile of rubble to understand what's going on. If anything, staying away from the scene helped Bush to be a little more calm and rational about this whole thing.
No doubt Guilianni's got the biggest brass ones of any mayor in the USA, but you can't reasonably expect the leader of the free world to behave in the same way.
"Forty-two," said Deep Thought, with infinite majesty and calm.
No, actually he received very little. He was, however, sought out as a source of financing by the CIA as he himself has quite a bit of money.
No. Are you familiar with the word SUDAN? It is a country in Central Africa.
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
You are ignorant and your line of reasoning is borderline traitorous.
I will be the first to agree that the US's conduct in the past has not been exemplary, OK?
But any mention of that, in the same discussion of the attack on Tuesday, does imply that you are trying to excuse the attack. IT DOES. There is no way you can tell me you are not trying to hint that the attack was somehow justified. THIS IS TREASON.
We are under direct attack -- DIRECT ATTACK -- brutal and vicious and excessive and callous. Haven't you ever read any history? This is a fucking war, man. Even some TERRORISTS are saying they went too far this time. (Gadhafi of Libya, to name one.)
How does it feel to know that right now, someone is probably plotting to kill you? Doesn't that scare you? Don't you see how this is different?
Don't you dare try to excuse the actions of these slimy people. Don't you dare try to insinuate that the US is somehow on their level.
Our country may be fucked up, but it's still worth fighting for.
>If resources were distributed equally, everyone would be living very humble lives.
Why should resources be distributed equally? Darwinism still applies - humans are not special. If all food was disributed equally between all species, we'd all be protozoa with no incentive to move higher.
BTW - Why is it those with little or no resources tend to breed MORE?
It appears from the press that we are headed to war. I was wondering, what are our goals? Retribution? Revegenge? "Justice?"
Ten years ago I remember large disapointment of the American Public when we attacked Iraq; we didn't go further and replace their dictatorship with a democracy. Is this our goal? This is very much different from the above. Is this goal more nobel or permanent?
I have bad recollection, but about 2 years ago I heared an NPR article on the Mexican/American war and the general in charge; who made it clear to the civilian population that they were *not* staying and *not* going to control their contry; and they we only wanted to remove their dictator and replace it with democracy. From the story, at first the Americans were greeted with suspicion. Then, one of the weoman accuesed a soldier of rape. The very next day the General held a court-martial and hung the soldier in the town square (even though there was ample evidence that the soldier was innocent). Word of this spead, and from the documentary, passage through each remaining town was easier and in some cases brought cheer.
Is this too idealistic of a picture to have? Perhaps I'm just too niave.
>>Actually, a laptop would be a great weapon against them , imagine being hit in the head repeatedly with a laptop.
Or being pummelled in the head by 2 fists over and over and over again, only to have their ears boxed, their foreheads slammed into a knee and then either shove their nose up into the base of their brain, or pop their eyeballs out.
Laptops are great tools, but sometimes a guy should just do things by hand.
Microsoft Fucking Sucks!! Up The Penguins!!
You friggin moron! Of course Bush moved around while Rudy stuck it out! Bush is the US President! His safety is of FAR greater importance than that of the mayor. His job is to coordinate and mandate the response of the nation. He has to pull together the country and the world.
The President has a much greater responsibility than does the mayor. Both roles are vital. Bush's is critical.
Writers imply. Readers infer.
That's because the attack was meant to send a message, not to correct a problem, and the intended audience for that message was NOT Bin Laden; the intended audience was the American public. People wanted a big dramatic gesture so that they could believe that their gov't was "doing something"... then America could forget about those tiresome foreigners and get back to important things: like Jon Benet, the WWF and what naughty Congressmen might do with their interns
-- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
I'm not so sure the analysis of W is entirely accurate, at least from my POV. I am ostensibly free to watch TV all day so I have poured myself into observing all that I can. I've been watching ABC (I think they have the best news people of the majors), BBC, and CBC (I now have digital cable,too). First, let me say that I haven't been much of a fan of any politician from either of the big parties for the last ten years. Today, however, I saw something refreshing from W. Senator after Representative would rattle off some sound bite, essentially saying nothing. This morning W made a call to Guiliani and Patacki (spelling?) and actually sounded like a real person, as Guiliani always does (on Letterman!), and Patacki (and Frau Clinton for that matter) never does. Then he answered questions from the media and showed more of his inner character. W is less of the measured, read the prompter type of politician that has destroyed government. Granted his hem and haw speaking style makes him sound less prepared, or less intelligent than a talking robot like Gephart or Gore. And it hurts him on issues such as the budget, because it doesn't sound as though he really knows what he is talking about. In contrast, I think the current situation requires that type of leader; one that is human and one that understands what we are all going through. Can you imagine Gore showing emotion at a time like this? The tears would short circuit the motors that control his mouth. W wanted to go back to Washington on Tuesday, but the FBI had learned of other teams (who were recently arrested at NY airports) that may have still been in control of planes and were targeting the White House and Air Force Uno. His security people refused to let him do anything, but stay out of harms way. Notwithstanding, W was still in constant communication with Guiliani, et al. which was not reported due to the mandatory gag order placed on the media as to the movements of the Commander In Chief. Far be it from me to spout off a lengthy paean of a Republican or a Democrat, but I have been pleasantly surprised by how W is respoding. I recall how much maligned his father had been up until the Great Patriotic Oil War of 1991, and perhaps the apple didn't fall too far from the tree. Throughout his governorship of Texas he was a bumbling fool when it came to policy - environment, crime, education - often taking credit for other's success and quick to run from blame. However, people in the Lone Star State still elected and re-elected him based on some quality. As much as I would like to accuse all the residents of Texas of being morons, alas, I cannot. Perhaps this is the stage on which he can shine and prove to be the leader that Texans have known him to be. Looks like I launched into a little bit of a rant, again. I apologize.
President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day....
...Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue.
Ah yes, and of course while the advice to Mayor Guiliani begged him to be careful in his decisions soon after the most frightening terrorist attack in U.S. history, the advice to President George Bush was most likely, "Rush back to D.C., Mr. President. We must present the image of a strong courageous President. Another attack on Washington Mr. President? Oh no, highly unlikely." We have had many heros in this crisis. Please don't waste your time and my nerves by writing such nonesense.
Far be it for you to rely on experts that collectively gather and montage a situation faster, more accurately, and in less time that you can squeeze out another kidney stone of a commentary. As we all on /. know, you have again opened are eyes to the "Devil's Advocate", errr perhaps "Devil's Idiot" point of view.
Jon, is it not painfully obvious to you that a squished N.Y. Mayor and a splattered president make for a terribly demoralizing image. Try, just for once, to not take advantage of a deeply moving event to further your trailer home foundation of opinions.
Your comments are deeply un-patriotic, un-feeling, and in truly poor time.
"...when the plane crashed into the World Trade Center and burst into that orange fireball and the buildings fell down..."
...and then the big boom happened and then more big booms and then lots of people cried and my mommy was sad and I was scared.
The United States reaffirms that it will not use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear-weapons States parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons except in the case of an invasion or any other attack on the United States, its territories, its armed forces or any other troops, its allies or States towards which it has a security commitment, carried out or sustained by such a non-nuclear-weapon State, in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State.
That is one hell of a truck-sized loophole, and this situation certainly applies. So it looks like the U.S. could certainly demand the Taliban hand over bin Laden and associates to American authorities, "or else," while not-so-subtly jingling the keys to a Minuteman III.
Other than that, I see the most likely scenario being U.S. military forces invading and sealing the borders of Afghanistan, then hunting down bin Laden themselves.
~Philly
Why hasnt katz posting rights been taken away and katz himself shot and dumped in a river
the following are anagrams of "osama bin laden":
a damn alien S.O.B.
a lesbian nomad
bean sad oilman
blonde asia man
a salami nob end
a salad bin omen
a slain abdomen
animal bed son
be a oil sandman
abandon a slime
a salina mob den
a asia blond men
a annal bid me so
i'm on a nasal bed
a bad menial son
a bad man lesion
bad man is alone
a blade man is on
a bald man is one
a bland sea i'm on
a able man do sin
a lebanon midas
almond is a bean
a damn bean silo
i'm on a land base
lend mao a basin
a bias man led on
a lamb inane sod
a slab made in on
a bam lead in son
a ideal man snob
a denial man sob
a inland sea mob
a mad insane lob
a sand alien mob
be a sand oilman
mean salon bid
a slain man bode
a main salon bed
a man an bed soil
banana model is
baa sand oilmen
baa snail demon
amoeba land sin
so die banal man
madonna is able
bad seaman loin
bad animal nose
bad alien mason
bad insane loam
bland sea amino
lesbian and mao
bemoan sad nail
nab idea salmon
nab damn sea oil
ban domain sale
This kind of blatant misinformation is exactly what we need to guard against. It's an old trick, take the facts and distort them subtly to completely misrepresent reality. The US and other allies regularly bomb Iraqi military targets, they bomb Radar installations and command and control infrastructure Iraq uses to direct missile attacks on overflying jets. Your loyalties are betrayed by the bare faced lies in the text of the article you are promulgating. There are thousands of innocent civilians dead in America and Palestinians are dancing in the street. There is a clear distinctions to be drawn between right and wrong here. The Palestinians and other Arabs have been hell bent on the destruction of Israel as a state, they tried to destroy Israel and failed, now they want Israel to forget all that and concede the territory they were attacked from back to their attackers and just HOPE that the Arabs will be nice enough to not try the same thing again. Moreover they want the parts of Jerusalem originally offered when they collectively walked out of the UN decades ago and embarked on their antisemitic crusade. In the mean time just to underscore how insane that policy would be for Israel, Palestinian terrorists rocket and suicide bomb civilian targets while hiding in civilian centers like the refugee camps. Your two faced lies don't withstand scrutiny. The only deliberate and targeted murder of civilians is the terrorist attacks and we're all doomed if we forget that and listen to the lies and doublethink from the groups who condone murder. I no longer give a damn about Palestinians or their cause. Enough is enough, you can gloat over the death of innocent lives but that's the same mistake that the Palestinians made when celebrating Sadam's SCUD missile attacks on Israeli cities and American & Saudi targets. It's time for the Palestinians to drop the murderous and futile rhetoric and genuinely support peace. If there's a wrong side to be on they have an instinct for picking it. The only way they can ever hope to regain their territory is by earning the trust of their neighbours, that will take decades of concerted work towards peace. Every bomb and rocket moves them further away from their ultimate objectives. If they knew how far the attack on America had set back their cause they'd have been weeping not celebrating.
Alas, you wouldn't know truth if it leapt up and burrowed into your ass.
Do make the effort to become informed, RJames. Pulling the "victim" card will only earn you disgusted looks from the civilized world.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
This is just sick, as the nation morns he attacks and cheapens the mourning. there is a sound clip at http://www.poenews.com or search for falwell.mp3 on limewire or kazaa.
If you don't quite know what ANZUS means, check this full text of the treaty.
It's a security treaty between the US, Australia and New Zealand struck in 1951.
No unauthorized use. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
'Cause no one fukks with America.
Nukke 'em.
Phil Zimmerman makes the point far more effectively than I could ever do, but in summary: a potential message hidden being sent between two terrorists could also be the victim of human rights abuses trying to get a plea for help through to Amnesty International. Without secure encryption and tools such as stenagography those living in oppressed regimes would not be able to report the truth to the outside world without certain execution. Please consider the effects fully before making knee-jerk comments such as this.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Reality Master has been a confirmed idiot of the highest order for some time now. You don't get to +2 on /. by posting thoughtful, interesting, factual and thought provoking comments.
They went after the people who finance these developments, and finance their use against innocents as well as outraged third-world maniacs. And like the US in Iraq, never mind the collateral damage.
Doesn't it strike you as significant that several times as many more or less innocent bystanders are killed every day, directly and indirectly, by US involvement in the affairs of other nations, as were killed in one day in New York?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Urgh. I don't even know where to start.
First of all, MY analysis of two media. The integration of TV and the Internet has created a bizarre mutant child of online and offline media, where the repetitive imagery and propellerheads of television news are subject to the scrutiny and discussion of numerous newshounds with too much time on their hands... the result being that along with television's processed, plastic-packaged presentation of events, we have the opportunity to view with a few clicks of the mouse how hundreds, maybe thousands (we won't have specific numbers for possibly three weeks, so stop asking... ... hmm, poor taste alert) of people feel about the presentation, and how other people feel about how people feel... and so on and so forth. This makes media uniquely responsible for what they present... not so much now, but as interactive forums become larger and more common, television will bend to the will of the message maniacs.
It's quite obvious that Mr. Katz didn't vote for President Bush. That's fine; I didn't, either. I think the president rose to the occasion quite nicely, though; his staff made sure that he was safe for the duration of the attacks (I bet Mr. Katz feels pretty silly now that the New York Times reports there was a credible and specific threat to the President), and he played his political cards right.
When our president addressed the nation, he had two options. He could read a teleprompter containing a script approved by his staff and listen to their advice on how to remain calm and deliver it so that he didn't identify with and therefore justify the violent feelings brewing in most of America and start a mass lynching of Arab-Americans... or he could just say whatever was on his mind at the moment. Given those two options, I think we were pretty lucky.
It's also rather obvious that Mr. Katz also shares my distaste for television network news. I think the news organizations of America performed far above and beyond the call of duty... the Three Horsemen (Rather, Jennings, and Brokaw) put in two back-to-back sixteen-hour days on the air. Aaron Brown and Shep Smith both remained with us, commercial-free, for the first two days after the attacks. Ashleigh Banfield herself narrowly escaped WTC 1, and was struggling to remain composed as she related the story of herself and her crew. No thought was given to the advertisers who weren't having their products or services displayed for us to buy; in fact, CNN was broadcast over nearly every Turner network instead of regular programming. In times of ongoing crisis such as this, the news becomes a grueling business. Everyone involved with every network displayed a tremendous amount of intestinal fortitude as they reported on this most, ah, unique event. Rather than dismiss them, I think they all deserve our praise... for a change.
With their usual hubris, reporters and politicians were promising us that everything was going to change.
I have late-breaking news for you, Mr. Katz. Everything HAS changed. The bar has been raised for Shocking Terrorist Acts. Americans everywhere are fortified with cellular phones and the memory of this incident, coupled with a firm resolve to never let it happen again. (I would like to see anyone try to hijack a plane with a knife now.) All of us have seen the powerful impact that the Internet and wireless communications can have and have had in this situation, and we will use this knowledge the next time disaster strikes.
...bringing me to my final point. Sadly, the change that will have the most impact on America is that despite increased security, despite carriers off the coasts, despite air marshals, despite military strikes around the world... there will no doubt be a next time.
"China is ready to help as well since the terrorists from Bin Laden's camps also cause mischief in their south western provinces"
Maybe an example of making *too* many enemies.
I'm not entirely sure of the answer to this: is there anything in either Zoroastrianism or Catholicism which requires yout to eat pigs, drink fermented beverages, or wear certain kinds of clothes? You could make a case for fish on Fridays, but is there any reason that you must risk trichinosis, alcoholism and probably also being shot?
Actually, your hate would logically be directed at organisations claiming to have authority from one diety or another, when they patently don't. The Q'ran requires Muslims to treat ``the people of the book'' (ie Jews and Christians) gently. The so-called fundamentalists ignore this plain, fundamental instruction; they don't even treat their own people gently. Clearly, they are not who they claim to be, they are not genuine fundamentalists.
It's just another case of blind, stupid our-side vs their-side bullying and you can put in pretty much any set of opposing names you like: Protestant/Catholic (Ireland), Atheist/Diest (USSR, China), White/Black (Rhodesia, RSA), Islander/Chinese (Indonesia), Hutu/Tutsi (Rwanda) and so on.
However, for each bullying asshole, there are hundreds of reasonable human beings, swept along in the flow. Don't write them off, or the militant idiots will have achieved their goal for you.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The real enemy of freedom in this attack is the narrow-minded delusions both Christians and Muslims willingly indulge in; the fundamentalist Muslim delusions just happen to be more immediately violent. Bush's reading of Psalm 23 during his 9/11 Oval Office speech is so ironic it's laughable. Consider: "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Death, I fear no evil, for you are with me" roughly equates to "I'm not afraid of death because God is on my side. God is on my side which means I'm right, and my enemies are evil. I am so right, I'm ready to die over it."
Quoting Christian martyr-making propaganda as part of a rant denouncing Islamic martyrs?!? I know the speech-writers were pressed for time, but come on! Could they possibly milk the situation for any more sentimentalist, inflammatory remarks? Was that a Presidential Address or the dramtic climax of a made-for-TV movie?
A whole country of the fattest, most spoiled, and most self-righteous people on the planet are filled with indignant fury, and the country's leaders (elected by popular vote) know that all they need to do for their approval ratings to shoot through the roof is FAN THE FLAMES OF WAR. Loose them doggies! "The people are hungry for blood, let them gather in the colosseum (their living rooms) to watch the lions (the US Military) tear apart the evil and insurgent Christians (Muslims)! Maybe afterwards we can go cruxify Jesus (Bin Laden)! Yee ha!"
Scotty, beam me up quick! This planet is so stupid it might be contagious!
Read it in the NYT (print) this morning. I don't know about six stories, they just said the tunnel itself was blocked with rubble and it appeared to have been from an actual collapse of the tunnel.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
Yes, but not the thirty or so times that it has been shared already in the last three days. Read before you post.
Sad that they don't have the balls to do it again. There are bits of the Moon just screaming to be explored.
Speaking of America, my favourite quote from the Moon era was one astronaut, who was asked (silly reporter!) what went through his mind on the launch pad. His reply was along the lines of ``The fact that every nut, bolt and rivet in this thing was built by the lowest bidder.''
That kind of makes the point that it's not adventurous leaders taking the decisions any more, but greedy and conservative businessmen. As it was in the Moon era, so it is now ten or a hundredfold. And it's killing America's heart and soul.
NASA's hamstrung and couldn't launch a kite for under a billion dollars, Microsoft is given pretty close to carte blanche to rape the IT industry, and the Army's way of fighting a war is to drown the opposition in hardware rather than fight with careful, efficient style.
Who can respect that?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Why not pick the British Hawker Harrier, Franco-British Concorde or Australian HoveRoc as examples?
Or rockets? What does the US have to match Russia's Energia, or even China's Long March launcher? Can the USA launch little loads for a fraction of the price that Japan does?
Or how about radar? Both Australia and China have radar systems that stomp all over Amercia. Jindalee can track and identify air traffic on the other side of the world, and the Chinese equivalent shows up ``stealth'' aircraft like magnesium distress flares.
Yup. Countless times, the Commonwealth countries (among others) have pulled US asses out of a sling.
Take time off blowing your own trumpet to appreciate everyone else, and they might be nicer to you.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
So, is the US really giving them this money, or is it just borrowing from Peter to pay Paul?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Several religions have a bad habit of finessing their rules to mean ``we can do what we like'' or in other words ``the end justifies the means.''
An Islamic example is the sura that places woman as ``one step below'' men but often gets read in practical terms as ``one step above an animal.'' A Catholic one is classifying heretics as not being neighbours, despite copious instruction and example to the contrary in the Bible, a book which they sometimes claim to follow. It's doctrinally OK for a Catholic to break any kind of deal or agreement made with a heretic, without notice. Using similar methods, Saddam and many others who (I believe falsely) call themselves Muslim work with a similar self-defeating finesse.
They're being ``penny wise, and pound foolish.'' And I quote: ``Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.'' Matthew 23:23
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
You're a self important fuckwit, Katz. Stop wasting our bandwith with your shit.
There's a big difference between the attack being "deserved", "on a not wholly innocent country", and "we're innocent, it's entirely unprovoked".
"Deserved" means the attack was wholly justified. Few people are saying that, only the most extreme enemies of the USA (such as Saddam) who want to provoke more attacks.
I don't think anyone here holds this opinion, it only gets mentioned because some of those going with the "innocent and unprovoked" option find it easier to argue when they misrepresent the "not wholly innocent" folk as supporting the terrorism.
"Entirely unprovoked" means the US did absolutely nothing, they were just sitting there playing nice and the bully came up and hit them. This is true of the specific target of the attacks, but probably not of the country as a whole. It's also a rather extreme view; even if the US HAD always somehow picked the right side to support, they'll still be making enemies on the other side.
The middle option seems more likely. It's not endorsing any of what happened, just saying that there were certain reasons why it happened. Like moving your secure data on a standalone computer to protect it from hacking attempts, instead of just trying to stop each one as it comes in. See if there's anything you can do at your end to stop things happening, instead of just reacting when it does.
Why do I prefer the middle option?
"Deserved" - it was fair to attack innocent people for the supposed actions of their country.
No, it wasn't.
"Innocent" - the attack was entirely unprovoked and so there's nothing we can do except try to stop the next one.
Not a particularly cheery thought.
"Not wholly innocent" - the attack was unreasonable but there are issues behind it that we might address to stop this happening again.
At least this one offers some hope of improving things.
Was down at GZ thx to a friend in FDNY. It's a war zone. You can't recognize body parts from the rubble thx to the dust. Indescribable. Having my 5th Jim Beam to try to kill the imagery. Sad.
Revenge for this is unthinkable and wrong. Justice is right.
The article does absolutely nothing to justify the WTC tragedy.
It simpy says what many people outsite the USA are thinking, that here are reasons for why America is almost always the target of terrorism, and the reasons are pretty clear, but unfortunately, the American people get their reality from CNN and the state.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
An amazing number of you miss the point. I have traveled extensively throughout the middle east and asia. I have also lived in the US, and in Europe. I have holidayed in Vietnam and Cambodia.
Bin Laden is a extremist in a religion that like christianity preaches "Love of Fellow man" above any other edict. To generalise from Bin Laden to Islam is the same as generalising from Hitler or the KKK to the average Christian person. It is prejudice and racism.
I believe that Bin Laden's hatred of the US is deep and complex. It is a sentiment shared to a lesser degree by much of the 3rd world and in particular the Middle East.
From what I have seen of the anti-US sentiment it revolves around a feeling that the US has been undertaking a form of cultural and economic imperialism. I don't think that a majority of Americans wish harm to anyone else. I even belive that most decisions the Americans have undertaken have mostly been well intentioned. Even if somtimes mis-guided.
However, if you go to a small village in Pakistan or Vietnam, Bangladesh, or Iran then you will see there is a sense that contact with the west has degraded their societiy's moral fibre. The images shown on MTV in Pakistan sadden many Pakistanis and the government even had it banned. While none I met ever felt that violent action could ever be justified they were saddened to see their society be changed by coke, pepsi and Nike. There was also a strong sense that they were being exploited.
My experience in Iran was of a repressed society that some locals described as being run by "Bad Muslims". The hospitality and kindness shown to me by the ordinary people put any I found elsewhere in the world to shame. People with nothing, would give everything to help a stranger. To many of these people America is seen as morally corrupt.
To many non-Americans there is a view that America applies its set of values and culture on other cultures. These "uncivilised countries" often have a stronger sense of family values, support for your own community, and respect for others than our own culture.
The Point:
1) If America reponds without proof of who did it, then hatred of the US will increase.
2) If the response is seen as revenge, rather than as Justice and Respect for other people, then this will further increase the sense that America is morally corrupt.
3) If the reponse if strong and fair, then America can show the world that it ranks Justice and Freedom for all humanity as high as Justice and Freedom for Americans. By this I mean targeted attacks on the murderers. Collateral damage of 200,000 civilians like in the Gulf War will merely further the image that American's view of Justice is only for Americans.
I hope that Bush has the sense and skill to do this. His father's example of accidentally shooting down an Iranian civilian internal flight, and then refusing to apologise is not good.
Elivs
elivs@zdnetonebox.com
(stated bias : I'm an aetheist New Zealander)
Anyone else noticed this? US policy favors smart bombs over smart soldiers, signals intelligence (Carnivore type stuff, see janes analisis), balistic missle defence over convertional (patriot style) measures.
Rear Admiral Kathleen Turner, who works on Star Wars II, said yesterday (I'm gatecrashing an arms fair) that "Threats come from many sources" and that a balistic defence should be a part of US defence. She did cut her talk short in light of WTC. Wonder how many people in the US actually speak Arabic, and how many of those work for the govt. in relavant fields. This goes for the UK too (my country), that as we speak English we never bother to learn other languages. When I'm working in the West Bank I find almost everyone - except Jewish settlers - speaks 3 languages, Arabic, Hebrew and English. Then there are a lot of Christian schools in the area who teach French, Spanish, Greek, Latin etc.
Just an observation from a news photographer.
dear loyal american, of course you are right .... how can you not be ?
yes, of course, you are the united states of america and always been a nation wiht a strong set of values and it is a totally unprovoked assault on the american set of values and the resolve of a great nation. Of course, you will show the world how great a nation is and what can happen when someone awakens a sleeping giant ( quoting an Admiral in the aftermath of Pearl Harbour ).
Of course, it does not matter that you sell military equipment to countries like pakistan for a few dollars. After all, you need a military base in the troubled Asian continent. Why should it bother you if the same guns and planes that you sell them are used to kill thousands of innocents in Kashmir. Why should you bother if the same guns and planes are in the hands of a militant regime in a country which is the only nation which has recognized Afghanistan, the base of your beloved Osama Bin Laden. Of course, a military base, a few dollars and constructing 110 storey buildings are more important. and that Pressler ( of the Pressler amendment fame to ban sale of a few F21's to pakistan ) is a fool. To think that a decent and honest nation like Pakistan will use it for nefarious purposes is foolish.
dear loyal american, of course you are right .... how can you not be ?
yes, of course when iran fights with iraq, you will help iran first and then iraq. Of course, you have to think of the thousands of planes and military equipment lying idle in companies like lockheed. Of course, you have to think the millions of americans working in these companies who will starve to death otherwise. What Iran or Iraq does with your equipment is none of your problem.
dear loyal american, of course you are right .... how can you not be ?
yes, of course you have to spend more on defense so that you can make more money by selling those to would be terrorists. and of course you have to constantly keep proving to the world, that america is a great nation. so you have to spend billions to make new and better bombs which can trillions. what if a few billion are dying out of hunger every year. Of course we understand that missiles which can travel a longer distance are of greater importance.
dear loyal american, of course you are right .... how can you not be ?
and of course, how can we forget the great set of values, the great nation america has. Of course, parents have no place in your home when they become old. and Of course, marrying someone does not mean anything more than a business agreement with another which can be terminated anytime you want with the appropriate money settlements. Of course, Love means nothing more than Lust. Of course, above all making money is the sole purpose you have been send to earth by God. We quite understand that you need money to buy your way into heaven after the way you have lived.
But if you ever want to be proved wrong in your life, come over to a place you might have seen on the map. A country we call india. You might have seen pictures of snake charmers, monkeys and beggars on the CNN. yes, i am asking you to come over to the same country.
sorry, here you will not find any 110 storey buildings full of small people. instead we have small huts with lots of people with big hearts.
sorry, here we dont have concrete highways with people screaming at 100 kmph so that they can make a few dollars extra. instead, we have people walking on dirt roads to their office with a song on their lips.
sorry, here we do not have hydrogen bombs and stealth bombers. insead, we fight along the principles of non - violence.
The beauty of this nation is not visible on the outside. We dont have tall skyscrapers dotting our skylane. We are a few people here, a lot of love, a set of values and a culture that is 1000s of years old.
We conquer others not with force but with love.
written by an INDIAN who is used to reading about KAshmiris getting killed everyday.
IMAGINE the pain every indian has felt every single day for 50 years because of terrorists fighting for a few acres of land. Just Imagine.
PS: This is not meant to be an insensitive. We Indians know and understand the pain of a terrorist attack. We fully sympathize with you. But to use the word unprovoked attack is a bit offkey. At this point, look back and think hard. Maybe, you will see the point i am trying to make.
If you read it again perhaps you'll see what I was describing was an internal struggle as honestly as I could and in context. I needed to write it and included it in the hope that others might benefit from reading it. Hate is a perfectly valid emotion, how we deal with it and the actions we take is what separates the humans from the filth.
Also, I certainly wasn't suggesting genocide or WWIII (full scale nuclear war) or any such thing. This will be a very different kind of war and we are in it for as long as it takes to root out all those who would do such a thing, those that provide aid and comfort (physical or rhetorical), or cheer. And we will find them wherever they are within our borders or abroad, there will be no rock under which to hide. Equivocators and vultures your on that list too.
Is the US expected to correct all injustice, end all wars, free all the oppressed people of the world?
Is the US some freaking collective Messiah (or the AntiChrist)?
US has had terrorism for years and dealt with it. I'm sure the US will pull out of this, but I'm dumbed by the fools that say "This was well deserved". Did the US do too much or too little?
Are the US accused of interventionism or indifference? I'm sure your wife would say indifference and most palestinians would say interventionism. Maybe the UN should organize an international conference and help them decide?
Well, I hope the US is gonna give them a lesson in commitment. Intervene. Find the guilty and punish them, even if this means war.
I see your point, but.. while Christianity remains a powerful movement in the first world it is no longer a majority. The majority are capitalists, wage earning capitalists, it is the only system that they (and I) know. There are no alternatives unless you want to go to a socialst republic (which is really turned upsidedown fascism) or the Amish which is Luddism.
So, we are all capitalists even though we are feeding on the bottom. The Arab countries are different, not better nor worse, just different.
This time the fight is between Capitalism and The Future of Islam. Capitalism wins by inherent vigor and seduction. It is just too easy to buy a greasy Kentucky when you are late/tired/birthday/hungry. It is cheapish and you know what you are going to get and kids get a job until they get a real job (erhmm did I just say that?).
So, the Americans value money over god (mostly) and the Moslems want to be left to follow god without the intrusion of capitalism (read take over of the media and thoroughly intrusive advertising). They want their kids to be like them.
America will win this one in the short term. However an eye needs to be kept on the future.
Incidentally, do you think that TimeWarner will be selling "Fuck tha Police" in New York tomorrow. Maybe some rapper could make a song called "Fuck tha Fire Brigade 2".
The music/media/film corporations are deriding the heritage that has been earned by America through two world wars and billions of dollars to set the world on its feet again.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
In addition, I really do wonder what people mean when they refer to Israeli "atrocities." In most cases, the incidents refered to are the shootings that have left so many young Palistinian men dead. These deaths have nearly brought me to tears, but not for their injustice - for their stupidity. Think about the circumstances under which so many of them have been killed. If you initiate or participate in a riot and assalt police officers, you will probably get shot. It doesn't matter what country you are in, or what religion you are, or what ethnic group you belong to, or how rightous your cause might be. The Police will eventually have no choice but to shoot you. It sucks, but that is how you have to maintain order. Honestly, if you throw rocks and bottles at someone with an assault rifle, you are practically begging them to shoot you. If they eventually do, that doesn't make you a martyr, no matter what you might have been screaming at the time. It makes you an idiot.
What makes me sad about these deaths is not just that Palistinian children are being killed. What makes me sad is how the Palistinian community glorifies their deaths, and exploits the sadness that anyone would feel about such an event. Parents, role models and leaders all but beg their children to go out to Israeli checkpoints and get shot. Their lives are being manipulated and expended by a self-serving and cynical leaders. This is not exactly what I would call an "Israeli attrocity."
The other complaint that one hears about the most is the demolition of Palistinian homes, and the construction of additional settlements. I've never been in support of either of these actions. I think it's wrong to take away someone's home, even if they didn't have a permit to build it. Furthermore, I think it's unwise to settle territory in the way that Israel has chosen to given present circumstances. These are both probably mistakes. But again, people seem to forget what we're talking about here. Israel is 20,330 square kilometers. The state of Vermont is 23,957 square kilometers. Areas like the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights are comparable to in size to such places as Windhan county or Bellows Falls. Not to belittle the Great State of Vermont, but why on earth would people get so worked up about such tiny, insignificant dollops of land? It would be like going to war because the state wanted to move you from Bellows Falls to Brattleboro. It's utter foolishness.
It always seems to come down the the fact that there are all sorts of "holy sites" all over the place there. In my opinion, if these holy sites are really causing that much trouble, they ought to destroy them all, for all religions, and be done with it. No pile of rubble, no matter how mystical or aincent, is worth the blood that has been spilt. I'm sure that if Muhammad, Moses and Jesus all appeared as guests on CMM'sCrossfire, they would all agree that a holy site isn't worth a single human life. So, with respect to land and settlements, I beleive that Isreal has acted beligerantly and unwisely. But the Palestinians (or at least their leadership) has acted completly insane. When the whole country is small enough to drive across in a couple of hours, what does it matter if you live here or there? We should be hearing demands from the Palestinian side that sound more like this:
Instead, they are blowing themselves up on streetcorners and taking potshots at preschools. Not all of them, of course. But the critical thing is that this behavior is all but encouraged by their leadership, and was officially encouraged not too long ago. We have such people in the United States, but we go to lengths to discorage them from actually killing people, and when they do, we lock them up.I happen to think that a lot of the things done by Israel have been mistakes. There have been times that I've been ashamed to call myself a Jew on acount of what Israel was doing at the time. But the fact is, Israel offered a final and permanant peace to Arafat, and Arafat turned it down. Israel allowed the United States to twist its arm until it yeilded to just about every demand made by the PLO. But Arafat decided to hold out for a better deal. Parez knowlingly sacrificed his leadership of the nation in an attempt to make this peace, and Arafat must have known that this would be his last shot at such a sweet deal. Up until that point, I was on the side of the Palistinians. I felt that they had been wronged, and although they behaved very, very poorly, they ought to be copmensated. But to respond to a peace offering by starting a war, and to do so with the blood of their own children is to betray the very name of Peace.
Arafat and the Palestinians wanted a war, and Israel has merely obliged them. It is exactly the same situation as the rock-throwers and the soldiers, only with whole nations. Israel (the soldier) might not be the most enlightened in its opinion of the rock-thrower (the Palestinians), but will reluctantly shoot when forced to. It sucks, but that's how you defend a nation.
In spite of the suggestions and all the tests that I have made, I have not cavato a spider from the hole.
Get out yer hankies!
It's a really moving set of pictures over on ars tehcnica. This is not a troll
Have you seen this sick employment agency in the UK: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21663.html
I should start by stating that I don't believe the answer to any of the problems I mention below lies in murdering innocent people. That can only make things worse. If what you read below angers you, please scroll back up and read this again. I feel strongly about this, but killing people is probably the most ineffective form of persuasion ever contrived.
No, we'd begin to grow in such a manner as to grab a larger share of that food; trees contort themselves to get limbs and leaves to where the sunlight is. That aside, evolution is not a program in which you redeem coupons for better senses and reflexes; i.e., there are no incentives. If you don't make it long enough to spawn, your DNA doesn't get passed down. And it should be remembered that evolution is a biological process, not an economic or political process. Organisms mutate, economies may grow or contract, but only species evolve. Social Darwinsim is a concept that should have been discredited long ago.
BTW - Why is it those with little or no resources tend to breed MORE?
Two prongs here:
1): Fewer resources means fewer resources devoted to family planning and contraception. It also leads to higher infant mortality rates, which in turn leads to making more babies in the hopes that some of them will make it to adulthood and start families of their own. Please do not lose sight of the fact that US funding for these efforts has been lashed to the wheel of the "pro-life" movement. If you want someone to blame, start there, and don't stop when you get to Mother Teresa. Traditional beliefs do play a role in this as well.
And yes, it puts an additional strain on resources. Humans will always reproduce; reproduction is the raison d'etre of all life. Which leads me to
2): Imagine the economies of the world's nations as a food pyramid. Put the US at the top. Put the G7 on the tier below that. Place Russia and China (or China's potential) below that. Under them, put the rest of the human race, perhaps putting OPEC nations a step above the rest. You know that predators require a large breeding population of herbivores and weaker carnivores upon which to feed. The herbivores require plant matter, the weaker carnivores insect life and each other. If plants, insects, and many other types of animals didn't reproduce in huge numbers, the predators at the top would soon starve. This model is not a perfect fit by any means. Political factors introduce a great deal of distortion. Brazil and Nigeria are two of the richest nations in the world, resource-wise, yet the average existence there is a profoundly shitty one compared to what you or I might put up with in the course of an average day. And yes, there is corruption there. Why, and who tempts them, are questions worth pursuing if you find the discrepancy between natural wealth and prosperity troubling.
All of this is not to say I'm equating people of different nations with different animals, etc., but this IS how the global economy works. With shorter lifespans, the people who toil in third-world sweatshops must breed at a higher rate than we do. The frightening alternative is higher prices at Wal-Mart.
The parent post didn't say resources SHOULD be equally distributed at all. It merely pointed out that IF they were, our lifestyles would be very different. I don't mean this as an insult or an attack, but the general inability or unwillingness to distinguish between descriptive statements (this is,) prescriptive statements (this should,) and conditionals (an IF...THEN should be a no-brainer here, but apparently it isn't...) is really distressing. If resources were equally distributed, you and I would be worse off than we are now. Billions would be better off than they are now. That is true. It is also true that that sort of stasis doesn't allow much room for much of an economy, which is necessary if the human population is being added to faster than it is being subtracted from..
Am I signing my paycheck over to Angola, you ask? No, obviously not. I have to look after myself first and foremost; I'm not a humanitarian by any means. I do know a rigged game when I see it, though.
What would be the point? Then everyone would die.
You, however, are using the greatest terrorist action in history to grind your well-worn axe against old media and take cheap shots at the president.
The last thing in the world we need now is pointless editorializing by the media--and believe me, I including you in that group in the loosest possible fashion--and definately not to advance personal agendas. This has to be a time for unity, not pathetic personal squabbles.
You should be ashamed of yourself. Normally, you are just a misinformed, unedited blowhard. Now you are despicable.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
- In Texas firebomb was thrown to islamic school and several shots were fired to islamic cultural centre. Local muslims are afraid that locals will attack any of them.
- In Chicago, arabian cultural centre was firebombed. Angry mob of approx. 300 people marched towards local mosceij yelling "USA, USA!" Police was able to turn them back.
- In Huntington, 75 years old drunken man tried to drive over palestinian woman. When he missed, he threatened to kill this woman, claiming that she "destroys his country."
- In Indiana, person in skimask shot towards a gas station with assault rifle. Gas station was run by Hassan Awhad, who was born in Yemen.
- Kuwaitian children recieved therapy in Washington, after their lives were threatened on their way to school. Persons had been yelling them things like "You should all die!"
Way to go, Usians! Really civilized...Road to Hell is paved with frozen door-to-door salesmen.On weekends many of the younger demons go ice-skating down it
A reporter for PRO7 [www.pro7.de, in german], a private German TV channel, was on her way with a camera crew to south Manhattan. I think the film started after the aircrafts' impacts in the WTC towers. The reporter was in a car on one of the north-south streets, the WTC was clearly visible, and when it started to disintegrate they got out of their car (massive traffic jam, of course), and she can be seen on the side of the picture, her hands holding the microphone fluttering, in tears. She tried to compose a few coherent sentences into the camera a few moments later, but was unable to do so.
Granted, she probably wasn't in the same league payscale-wise and experience-wise, as Peter Arnett was 1990 in Baghdad, or Christiane Amanpour is today. And what, I asked myself on seeing her, should we expect from professional reporters? Especially today, in the age of multiple 24-hour TV news channels. It wouldn't be helpful at all if the anchors in the studio or the reporters on the scene broke down in tears all the time. Of course, most of them come down on the other side of cool by asking obviously stupid questions at the most inappropriate moments -- but that, I believe, is a question of personal qualification. There are some better ones, and some worse. You can usually tell which is which. (Personal preference for TV and online news reporting: the BBC of Great Britain. Unbiased to a fault, and good language, too.)
-- H. Wilker
While I didn't feel particularly moved by any of President Bush's comments, I found myself soothed by Secretary of State Colin Powell's performance at the press conference. The man was asked somewhat random questions, and extemporaneously came up with speech-level answers. This is the kind of manner that makes British public figures seem more intelligent, even when they say the same things.
I do not feel entirely safe with George W. Bush as our nation's chief elected official, but Colin Powell's presence makes me sleep a little easier. It's a damn shame he decided not to run for the 2000 nomination; I would have voted for him over Gore in a heartbeat. And it's too bad also that he would never run against GW in the 2004 primaries.
Terrorists change too, and for all the high-tech equipment pouring into Manhattan, sometimes there isn't a thing we can do to stop them.
This is true but incomplete. There will always be bad people who will plant bombs, etc. But to cause destruction on such a scale requires many competent, dedicated people. These come from an even larger pool of people who are very angry about the injustices they or their relatives have suffered. We don't know yet whether this particular group was angry about the million+ civilian deaths caused by the US in Iraq, or about the horrifying suffering of the Palestinians, or about American attacks on civilian targets in Yugoslavia, or something else. But America has certainly enough blood on its hands to have provoked a very large number of people. Violence leads to more violence, which leads to yet more violence. I was saddened to see that the response from US leaders seemed to be to seek to escalate the cycle of violence even further, rather than to think about its possible causes.
I don't think it is fair to say that America acts in the world only to serve its own ends. When viewing the matter on a national scale it may be true that America always keeps its own interests in mind, but this does in no way diminish he selfless sacrifices and devotion that Americans have been displaying - we Europeans only have to think of WWII.
And in many instances, we can only be thankful for American aid and intervention. But this is not always so. Furthermore, the outright arrogance and narrowmindedness that we see so often from Americans - Republicans, especially - are hard to stomach.
Terrorism can never be excused, and we don't know what drove the attackers to their deeds, but the present government would do well to fix its attitude problem, just in case.
"Something about the city is busted for good, no matter what the mayor says."
Okay, you're in shock. That's understandable. But when you get a chance, go in your bathroom, lock the door, slap yourself in the face a few times, and then look yourself in the eye in the mirror and say, "Get ahold of yourself!"
From my vantage point on Mott Street, a mile and a half or so from "Ground Zero," the damage is indeed horrible.
But the city is not "busted for good." In New York's long history, there have been so many events that led people to declare the city "busted for good." The Triangle Shirtwaist Building Fire. The Draft Riots. The Departure of the Brooklyn Dodgers. The Renovation of Madison Square Garden. AIDS. Typhus. The Wretchedness of Five Points. And so on.
And for every person willing to declare New York City "busted for good," there are five of us (or ten, or twenty) who -- sadly, and at times even reluctantly -- get up in the morning, read the papers, have breakfast, get some coffee, and go to work. And then come home at the end of the day, grateful for the opportunity to live in the capital of the world.
Your grief is understandable. Your hysteria is not.
"But if the attacks demonstrate nothing else, it is the folly of that kind of thinking. Terrorists change too, and for all the high-tech equipment pouring into Manhattan, sometimes there isn't a thing we can do to stop them."
True. And seeing as this thought seems too much for you to bear, I think the best solution is for you to relocate. I doubt the Dallas/Ft. Worth area is a very attractive target to terrorists. Wouldn't you feel safer there? Or perhaps rural Vermont. Or Colorado. Michigan?
The specific place doesn't matter; there are thousands of other places for you to live. Let me help you find the right one and pay your relocation expenses. I'll even come over and help you pack!
And then I'll happily move into your apartment (but only if it's bigger than my current one, and no more than three blocks from a good newsstand, Korean deli, dry cleaners, Starbucks, book store, record store, and movie theater.)
Because I -- like millions of others -- like it here. And will continue to live here. And will eventually die here. And we wouldn't think of doing these things anyplace else.
Ah, of course. So even if you were to find that you were doing something wrong, the wrongdoing must go on because of the attack.
At worst, you'd end up with a different crew, with the same tendencies. And again, terrorists would continue about on their merry way.
It's a mistake to think that everybody in the world craves a democracy, televisions, and a McDonald's on every corner. In a place like Afghanistan, family, clan and the various levels of association between clans are the most important thing. When they are ready for democracy, they will have it. Right now, I don't think they want it.
If there's anything we (by which I mean much of the world, not just the US) need to learn, it's that democracy requires a certain social structure, or it will not work. Just putting in a voting system and a piece of paper with a constitution does not turn a place into a democracy, else Haiti, Serbia and Moldavia would be the most democratic countries on earth. Said social structure must be developed and grown by the people in question, it can't just be created in a vacuum.
You are right that war with Afghanistan would solve nothing. Firstly, no one has ever come close to subjigating the Afghans, and I think no one ever will. Ask the Russians, the British, the Indians, the Persians and so forth. They've all tried, over the centuries, and all backed away with bloody noses, or worse.
"Bomb them back to the stone age." Written in the 60's, regarding Vietnam. Similar sentiments here and there on /., on other boards, sad to say. As then, the problem is that they already live in the stone age. And that's not an insult - they just have very little, and live the way they have for 1000's of years. Sure, they have cell phones, computers, etc., but those are only tools they use to deal with us on our terms.
Lastly, most Afghans are being squashed by the Taliban. They don't like it. They put up with it partly out of fear of the Taliban, partly because they fear the West, and the Taliban promise protection from the West. A little respect and discrimination (in the sense of "discerning between various groups", not in the sense of "excluding certain groups for no good reason") would go a long way towards alleviating that fear. The Afghani people haven't, I think, forgotten the help they received against the Russians. They may be bitter that they received no followup after driving the Russians out, but one shouldn't underestimate the character of a people, based on the actions of a lunatic who's from another country entirely. I think the character of a people who have withstood incursion after incursion must be extraordarily strong.
In summary, I think invasion, in the name of peace or otherwise, would harden them against reason. They might make allowances for a time, if it were understood to be a quick and swift attack to root out those responsible for last Tuesday. But trying to impose an outside order on them, then expect them to like us? Arrogance disguised as benevolence. Patronizing. Let's learn from history, people, that's what it's for.
(Sorry for the strong reaction, it's not just to the replied-to post, it's sort of pent up in reaction to many posts in the last several days).
A witty saying is worth nothing - Voltaire
...it was, in fact, the US government that backed his initial rise to power, and funded him in the war against Iran from 1980-1988. During this time he used chemical weapons on the enemy. Part of the extreme bitterness that Saddam had towards the US was that we essentially sold him out during the Iran-Contra scandal by selling weapons to the Iranians while ostensibly working on his side. Bush senior was heavily implicated in this scandal, though nothing was ever proven. So yes, I agree that we shouldn't have tolerated him staying in power. I'll go further and say we shouldn't have put him there in the first place. Similarly, perhaps we should have been more cautious about supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Now that all of the knee jerkers are ready to flame me - NOTHING that our government has done, should result in a tragedy like this. Regardless of the US foreign policy, innocent civilians DO NOT deserve to die.
There's quite a few things about US policy itself that display these characteristics. It's OK for US foreign policy to:
These points are not the mindless ravings of a Muslim fanatic (whatever that means - all the Muslim guys I've ever known are really cool). I'm a white journalist who has lived through 15 years of terrorist war in Southern Africa and then fought against it in Northern Ireland - and I'm not just mindlessly sounding off. (I've also travelled widely in the US). All of my points are facts which can can be independently verified. But don't take my word for it - check them out. Don't rely on your own mainstream media which can't even bring itself to talk about how Bin Laden was funded by the CIA and the Taliban are a bastard creation of a US-sponsored agency in Pakistan. Go and find out just why these political problems in other parts of the world are the fault - in whole or in part - of the self interest of the United States of America.
Mantras seem to be the order of the day so here's mine:
In the eyes of some, US citizens are fair game as long as they continue to ignore their own government's foreign policy
Having correctly pointed out that US foreign policy has caused misery, suffering and death to millions elsewhere in the world, you seem horrified that a couple of those people are ready to give as good as they get.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
At least I hope that if we intervene (I'm talking about NATO, I'm not an american citizen) it will not only be to find Bin Laden, but also to help the afghani people get rid of the Talibans. Many of these people are suffering, especially the women.
By the way experts here are guessing that for the first time since vietnam there should be soldiers sent, instead of just shooting missiles from a cruiser. Has there been talks about that in the US?
The quickest way to become an atheist is to study the Bible thoroughly.
Not only did the Palestinians in Nablus & elsewhere celebrate, they threatened an AP cameraman with death if the tape got out. This is who we're dealing with. Barbarians for whom diplomacy is as subtle as a bullet in the head. They don't want the truth to get out, they only want duplicitoius conduits like you to spout their doublethink. As they say, a lot of damage has been done, not just by the footage but by the actions of these monsters parading as diplomats. From a Washington Post article:
"Palestinian officials told an Associated Press video cameraman that tapes of the gleeful demonstrations in Nablus, a West Bank city about 40 miles north of here, could not be aired. Arafat's cabinet secretary, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, warned the Jerusalem office of the Associated Press that the Palestinian Authority could not "guarantee the life" of the cameraman if the footage was broadcast. Members of Fatah, the main faction of Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization, issued statements holding the cameraman responsible for the tape.
But the public relations damage was done. Images of smiling demonstrators elsewhere were broadcast, horrifying Palestinian politicians who have pressed for a negotiated end to the conflict with Israel. "A lot of damage has been done," said Saeb Erekat, a Palestinian negotiator."
...plus Carnivore is used for tracking email, not cell-phones. I know, I know: it's hard to keep track of what technology they're using to violate our civil rights these days.
If you knew anything about what brought the 2nd gulf war to head it was the fact that Kuwait had been stealing billions in Iraqi oil via angled pumps or something.
Iraq wanted 5 billion in compo, Kuwaited offered 3 billion, & Saddam took it as an insult.
Well it went something like that.
Ten SAS guys, parachute into Afghanistan, kill bin Laden & his mates, and come back carrying a box. Tony Blair then flies over to America and on the steps of the White House presents Dubya with bin Laden's head on a stick.
If anyone could do it, they could,
"Information wants to be paid"
I am saying that to change our policies to STOP the worngdoing -- on its own -- would encourage more attacks of these kind. To attack but continue the wrong doing would do nothing to repair the hate many have for America.
But a combination of these two would work. Show the world that we will not accept terrorism (as they have shown they will not accept unjust American actions). Change our policies to be fair and just to every person on this planet. Stop giving people legitimate reasons to hate us while not bending to the fist of terror.
By UN precedent (going back to Nazi settlers in occupied Poland) they are conside war crime.
Remember they are the ones chosing to settle on ethnically cleansed land.
You know that Israeli settlements are in contravention of the Geneva Convention (A49P6), the Hague Convention (1906C), the IDHR & dozens of UN resolutions.
& the only reason Israel gets away with all this is because American politicians are so shitscared of the Jewish Lobby & American Jews voting as a block on a single issue. Consequently the US uses the threat of its veto to water down any UN resolutions against Israel to the point of uselessness.
Which is the reason that Israel hasn't been forced by a 20 year campaign of sanctions to comply with international norms, Like South Africa was.
Read your history books
Let's face it, the political and religious issues that caused these bastards to commit this horrible act are extremely complex. There really are no easy answers. There's no clear enemy to retaliate against. There's no one reason why the terrorists did this.
It's clear that U.S. foreign policy, politically, ecomonically, and militarily is flawed in many ways. But I believe that our government really does try to do the right thing. But they are human, just like the terrorists, just like the people working in the World Trade Center.
The one thing that could have prevented this enormous tradgedy is proper implementation of security measures in the airline industry.
The airline industry has been criticized in the news over the past years for a myriad of things, delayed and cancelled flight, rudeness by personnel, lost luggage, and lax security. It's no secret to us, we've seen the 60 Minutes episodes. And it's no secret to the terrorists of the world.
This outrageous act might have been prevented had we continued the Sky Marshall program, eliminated carry-on luggage, had better training for flight crews, etc.
I say "might have been prevented" because I wasn't on the plane. I don't really know what happened. I have scenarios running through my head, and I'm sure you do too. Who knows?
Again the answers aren't so easy. Getting up on our soapboxes about U.S. policy being evil, or being stalwart patriots isn't really the answer is it? It's not so black and white. The U.S. does a lot of good in the world, but we also do a lot of bad.
Let's not forget history. Here's a couple of notions: Dresden, The Crusades.
Who's right? Who's to blame? It's not that simple.
The best use of our energy is to put into place procedures which make it more difficult for religious and political fanatics from carrying out their mad schemes. And since the spotlight is on the airline industry, let's start there, then move to the intelligence community, then foreign policy, etc.
And if you believe in prayer, say one for the poor victims of the WTC, and one for the insane, deluded maniacs that committed the act, and for the wisdom for the world to respond sensibly to a billion mistakes at a thousand levels.
fuck you, slimebag... IT IS UN-AMERICAN TO ATTACK INNOCENT PEOPLE and TO DISPLAY RAGING INTOLERANCE towards those who do not believe in the same religion as YOU do. Many Americans are also Muslims, get over it. What religion do YOU believe in, scumbag? (I am atheist, btw)
Is it just me, or is the irony of Hindus and Sikhs being beaten up here just a little much? Ignorant Patriot syndrome strikes again, and again, and again...
Talk is cheap. Have we become that Oprahized that we need to FEEL good about everything ? We are called to action by the events. If we need a president to tell us that, then our enemy has already won.
... words mean things.
I agree with the above poster. The terrorists that hit the Pentagon flew over both the White House and the Capital Building. We have since learned that other cells were at work and that other planes were targets of hijacking. There are other details we're just now getting as well. Perhaps we should temper our commentaries until we know more of the facts (I'd say all, but we'll never learn it all).
Probably Clancy-esque spectulation on my part, I think the terrorists were trying to LURE Bush into a trap. Hoping he'd rush to this scene or that, putting himself in situations that are less than secure. Yes, we have big nasty fighter jets at Andrews, but that chopper is relatively slow as it lumbers onto the WH grounds.
As for everyone whining about Bush not looking presidential. First, I'm glad he was away from the emotional impact of seeing the WTC or the Pentagon. Last thing I want is any man with that much power to make a rash emotional descision.
I'm similarly relieved that he didn't say anything rash that would destroy the chances of building a coalition or paint us into a corner. Remember, the world is watching, and whether coldly read from a teleprompter, or delivered with all the hellfire and damnation of a black Baptist preacher
I'm also a bit disturbed by the complaints I read here. I can't believe that we don't have what it takes within ourselves to "get it up," that we need some cheerleading a face on TV. Meaning, I can't believe we're getting worked up over STYLE issues. I really don't give a fig how he looks, but I do care deeply as to the type of response he'll take.
Imagine the confusion that would have ensued if he was attacked, even unsuccessfully ? Or perhaps disabled by falling debris as he 'helped' the resuce effort. No, I'd rather deal with Bush than add the confusion of a political transition. And having lived in NYC, I would have rather had a Mayor alive in office to make calls, obtain resources, manage a crippled city, than one who's been impaled by a steel girder.
Could you imagine the confusion, with all the security and stuff that goes on, if the President did go to the WTC or Pentagon ? The distraction and possible obstruction to the men and women who were busy saving lives ?
I think ALL of us want to go to NYC and dig out rocks. But we're more effective doing our jobs. Sending money to the Red Cross. Paying taxes that will help fund the relief efforts. Giving blood. Praying. Encouraging our neighbor.
We each have different jobs to do. I hold up those who are in the thick as heros, men and women who do the work of God. But I also realize that heroism is not the call of everyone. Nor is it necessarily helpful that everyone, especially to the bonafide heros who need the 5th graders in Virginia making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and sending them along with the nameless faces of Red Cross and Salvation Army workers.
Talk is cheap. Have we become that Oprahized that we need to FEEL good about everything ? We are called to action by the events. If we need a president to tell us that, then our enemy has already won.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
JonKatz said:
When things like this happen, TV, much more than the Net or the Web, reveals whether leaders rise or fall to the occasion. Mayor Guiliani of New York clearly rose to the tragedy. President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day. Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue. Bush got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter. At least that was the image that TV brought of us of these two very different leaders.
Oh, come one. If the Mayor of New York is killed in a secondary attack, the country is still stable. Yes, he is the mayor of the largest city in the country, but his death would have had nearly no effect on our country. He would have been a statistic.
If the president is killed, then it's a whole other story. Sequestering him away from the public eye for about 5 hours while we determined if the attacks were even over was prudent and handled perfectly.
Grow up.
"George hid" is all you can say? Our country performed nearly flawlessly in how we initially reacted to the attacks. That's why the death toll is 10% of what I originally feared. Every death is a tragedy, yes, but imagine the numbers if we had dragged our feet at all.
- Hans
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel. -
Have we become that Oprahized that we need to FEEL good about everything ?
OW, that one hurt. Anyone seen Dr.Phil?
...that Katz wasn't there in the middle of it so he could get a really good feeling how detached things were.
I'm writing in "Rudy Giuliani" in the general election. I don't care if he's ineligible. The man deserves some props at the ballot box for a farewell present.
If Hillary Carpetbagger can run for office here, then so can Rudy.
From http://www.politechbot.com/p-02505.html
When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
September 12, 2001
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But there shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth - that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.
When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment - that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent people - while the presidents remain completely insulated from any danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the first place.
When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in the name of freedom?
What to Do
What should be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.
Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and un-American - that this is not a time to question our country or our leaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?
Harry Browne was the 2000 Libertarian presidential candidate. You can read more of his articles at www.HarryBrowne.org, and his books are available at www.HBBooks.com.
Above it states that president Bush hid out in bunkers while Mayor Guilliani went to the crime scene.
I find this statement ridiculous as the author clearly has no understanding of safety and security for our national leaders. You DO NOT send your leader to the site that has JUST BEEN BOMBED! It is insane to think that George Bush would rush from Florida to New York without properly ensuring that the leaders of this nation are secure and that the american leadership will go on.
I am all for having him go see the site today. The area is secure, the security is tight, and those that wish to harm our great leader are scurrying to get out of dodge.
Once again another liberal is taking a pot shot at our leader just due to the fact that he wants to preserver order and leadership in our nation instead of rushing to the scene like some lone ranger on a white stallion...give me a cool and calm leader any day.
So, if turning on cell phones is gonna crash the plane into the ground, then that's exactly what I want to do if a bunch of terrorists are flying my plane towards the White House!
In light of the recent tragedies, is there anything that the hacker community can contribute to the inevitable reprisals against terrorist activities?
The Register reports that "an undisclosed number of Web sites have had their front page redirected by "Fluffi Bunni" in response to the events that have shaken the world".
Entitled "Fluffi Bunni goes Jihad" those behind the hack say: "If you want to see the internet again, give us Mr Bin Laden and $5 million in a brown paper bag. Love Fluffi B.
The Red Chinese got behind their government with the Sadmind worm earlier this year (f**k USA Government, f**k PoizonBOx) so how about it, you hackerz?
cogito ergo sig...
I have no clue about the CNN footage, but in Copenhagen, Denmark, there were in fact palestinians celebrating (and the Danish PM said: "It is distasteful, unacceptable and inhuman").
As Pheobe from friends says: "I don't want to be all judgemental, but it's wrong. Sick and wrong".
-Kraft
Live and let live
I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments of the above posting, but I do agree that most U.S. citizens [and citizens of nations that line up alongside the U.S] should be prepared to see this as a generation-long struggle.
Many of the terrorist organizations throughout the world, most notably the PLO and IRA, have operated according to the "30-year war" doctrine used with expert effect by the Viet-Minh/Viet Cong/NVA troops during their 1945-1975 war for independence. Simply put, no industrialized nation, not even the U.S., can afford to maintain a full war footing much longer than five years. Why do you think most of the major wars of the last 150 years have ground to a halt after the 4th or 5th year? Guerrilla movements thrive off this fact by adopting a hit-and-run strategy and waiting until the citizens of the occupying nation lose the political will to endorse continued bloodshed.
This will definitely be the case over the next decade. Even if we do send in a coalition army to unseat the governments of every state from Morocco to Pakistan, the battle won't end there. If anything, it will heighten the need for a decade-long commitment, at minimum. All the posters who decry U.S. policy prior to this attack are justified. Perhaps a pan-Arab Marshall plan will make these states and their citizens friendlier to the Western world.
In order to help these states accept such a plan, however, we have to make sure it's an offer they can't refuse. That's where the war part comes in.
Sad but true.
When was the last time Americans were dancing in the streets because some Palestinian or Iraqi CIVILIANS were killed?
Didn't you ever see the footage of the celebrations that happened in several places across the US when we were bombing Baghdad during the Gulf War? You can be pretty sure there were civilian casualties then...
President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day.
You're comparing the "Leader of the Free World", whose plane BOUND for Washington was diverted to another base after Air Traffic controllers lost contact with the plane that crashed in PA (after it had done a 180), to a City Mayor? I suppose you think Schwartzkopf should have been on the front lines, or flying an F15 during Desert Storm. "No, he was cowaring in Saudi Arabia."
60% of American's favor war. 80% will go along with it. Bush has 90% approval rating, and you said he's shrinking?
Are you INSANE? Oh wait, this is a Jon Katz article. It's political observations are obviously flawed.
I think if you want to keep readers, you're going to need a new pen name, and don't pick Peter Jennings, we'll all know it's going to be the same old dribble...
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
You sir, obviously don't know texans...
There is a wonderful misconception, that because people from texas have a slow, deliberate way of speaking, that we are lacking in the IQ department somehow.
Nothing could be further from the truth, JK. What I saw was a man who's advisers where telling him the nation needed to see him calm, and in control, not raging that we were gonna find the fools who did this and rain the righteous hell fire of the U.S. down on thier heads...
He managed to say it anyway, but just watching him get off the his helicopter, and stride accross the lawn to his office, I saw one thing: A resolve to get the job done.
If you prefer
...but this article takes the cake.
This is nothing but a TROLL.
You're degrading portrayal of Bush's character and actions are TOTALLY uncalled for. Stick a sock in it - no one needs to hear this at a time like this.
I feel for our president. Consider what has happened in the nine or so months he's been in office: the confrontation with China, the dot-com crash and now the WTC disaster. How do you think ANY president would handle this?
People are bitching about Bush "not doing anything". BULLSH*T! I personally find the restraint our government is showing a HUGE relief. The last thing that would help anyone right now is the start of an international conflict - ESPECIALLY before we have INCONTROVERTIBLE proof of who is responsible.
Just save it, ok? Push your petty political agenda some other day. Not now.
God bless America.
I am glad to see that others also tune in to the BBC World News. One thing that constantly stands out is the sheer amount of violence in the world that the major US news vendors never report.
It kind of makes you stop and think - americans are always so quick to criticize the news or information "agencies" of other nations, but what of our own?
Plus, on the BBC they have nifty accents.
I'm a 2000 man.
In the late 80's, a cartoonist named Steven Johnson did some peices for the Sacremento Bee. Those (and a lot of others) were collected in a book called "Public Therapy Buses". One cartoon, adressed the issue of hijacking and aircraft bombing.
The plane towed a flying wing holding the luggage. The passengers had to remove all clothing, and don pocketless (paper?) clothing.
-dp-
Organizer:New England Rubbish Deconstruction Society;The NERDS,first US team in the UK Scrapheap Challenge/Junkyard Wars
The USA should have ended the occupation of Iraq within a year of the active war.
The continual presence of planes and incidents for eleven continuously rankles the nerves
of all those countries. The USA should have either finished the origional war,
or pulled out in a year or two. How would you like
if the former Soviet Union had occupied Cuba and closed off the Gulf of Mexico to traffic for a decade?
Then flew recon flights over Florida all the time?
Just saw clinton out copping feels on CNN...
He doesn't look the least bit sorry for those poor people. He looks like a robot, or like someone just woke him up out of bed!
Of course, maybe he is just in shock, like the rest of us...
Big stories like this now are covered two ways -- online and off. The former draws millions to websites like CNN's and USA Today's, and new kind of sites like this one. Bloggers and others put up sites so that people could describe what was happening in their own words. People in apartment complexes and news sites posted accounts, and looked for relatives and housing.
In all honesty, I think making a distinction between big media coverage and blog-type coverage is a mistake. They both ran the same info for the most part. And usually the blog items, with a few exceptions, were postings of things heard on TV or radio. Were the blogs immune to the misinformation and hype thrown around on TV? No. They repeated the same false information (there's a fifth plane, state deparment car bomb, etc). Metafilter.com even ran a scare headline about a "Small, unidentified plane circling Manhattan," which turned out to be a FEMA plane. Dave Winer at scripting.com started banging on the war drum right away.
Yes, I appreciated the weblog coverage, but it was more because other news sites were unreachable. I found out most of my information from slashdot and scripting.com, but that does not mean I find those sources to be better than others.
I'd hope the president looks like a deer in the headlights. We don't know enough to make a response. Who did it? Was it underlings acting outside of the leaders controll, or the leaders wishes? Did foreign goverments aid in this or not?
We don't have answers and people are demanding them. What can the president do, we need to be level headed about this without destorying the emotion of the event. Not an easy task, if it is even possibal.
Maybe part of freedom comes in being prepared to be the victim of anarchial/terrorist acts. No i'm not trying to reduce any sympathy for the victims... i'm not talking about those who have died- i'm talking about us survivors... do we make the choice to have our lives controlled incredibly [which i actually don't think would happen anyway] or do we go about our lives as usual except with the knowlegde and understanding that at anytime we are susceptible to such violent acts? Someone who is truly free to do exactly as he pleases should understand[and we didn't until this point] that we are free because of the lack of security.
Also, we who call ourselves free should take on the responsibility to look out for eachother- suspicious people should be reported to security/local law enforcement. I don't mean any person who looks Muslim[which is a broad definition anyway]... i'm not even speaking on muslims... if a caucasian or african-american should happen to look as though they have ulterior motives, should we report them so that proper surveillance can be done? I have heard a story that the men who are responsible for this act where in a scuffle out in the parking lot before boarding the planes. how is this possible?
Someone should say in cases like this- hey, these people seem to be aggressive, i'm afraid of them... and then security can take it from there. Or we can do nothing and truly be susceptible to any attack. Or we can allow big brother to decide our involvement or to decide our lives in order for our absolute saftey? There is a tremendous amount of gray area here... i'm interested in what slashdotters think.
I'm with Katz. Show support - sure. Have all of Congress hold a sing along for the cameras, that's just lame. Show endless carnage on TV followed by feel-good warnings about "What to tell the children..." What is this make-news about?
What's this national prayer coverage, with Senators going on at great length about Jeremiah? I'm pretty sure everyone believes God is on their side and that they're justified.
Really- the media channels decided that whether they had anything to say or not they are going to stay on the air 24-7. Did they forget that they are in the business of news? I for one am tiring of being told just exactly how and when I have to experience some cathartic reaction.
They haven't even done a good job of getting their own facts straight in a foaming effort scoop one another. It's been an endless stream of interruptions to their interruptions followed by corrections and counterclaims.
And now the first polls are out. 90% of people want immediate violent force applied pretty much anywhere. That's kind of like asking a rape victim's father the day after if he wants to kill the rapists whole family.
A chorus of talking heads screaming "Nuke the ragheads!!!" "Crush terrorism everywhere!!!"
Everywhere? Gee I really can't see O'Reilly advocating we carpet bomb Belfast or assassinate the IRA leadership.
So in the end it's NOT eradicate terrorism everywhere. It's eradicate terrorism OVER THERE. and even that it's eradicate terrorism over there if they don't sell oil to us, have a really big mechanized army or have missiles or a strong cultural bond with people over here.
Let's get through this paroxym and work toward keeping our citizens and the citizens of our allies safe.
Instead of acrhitects reconsidering the need for 110 story buildings, it is my opinion that after all the smoke and tears have cleared, NYC should rebuild the Towers EXACTLY as they stood before. I say, stuff it in their faces by showing them our resiliency is unmatched. Show them they can't change our skylines, because we can always change them back. At least, that's my opinion, but I don't know if we are hard enough to use such tactics.
> This model is not a perfect fit by any means.
The model is completely wrong by every means. That the wealthier countries somehow "prey" on the poor ones is completely backwards, and is also the core belief that, while wrong, many have an enormous emotional investment in. This belief can't be wrong -- then everything I think, my entire worldview is wrong! In this sense, it's much like religion.
People will pick themselves up and make a better life for themselves if gun-toting thugs (i.e. governments) just get the hell out of the way. In so far as governments adhere to this principle, their populations make their own lives better. In so far as they violate it, they lessen the quality of life, because the government sits like an obese bon-bon eater on the shoulders of people trying to lift themselves up.
"Don't do it this way, do it that way. Step there! Hop a little for me. Buy me more bon-bons."
To any doubters, just match relative economic freedom with wealth of citizens. This is one of the most tested principles known, with a thousand and one results around the world to every variation. Yet people, especially Ivory Tower Intellectuals, who should know better because they've been trained in critical thinking and science, continue to believe the opposite, and for exactly the same reason that intelligent people continue to believe in myriad religions -- they have too much emotional investment in it.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to
a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans
as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all
the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were
lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions
of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries
is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United
States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the
Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and
swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States
that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of
dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries
are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating
over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.
Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't
they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly
American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or
woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get
radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You
talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in
the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are
not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of
them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking
down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help
of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of
this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to
thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present
troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
i think we're tired of it in general. even if it doesn't happen to us, we can see it happening everywhere else.
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
I think its important to note that many of the Israeli attacks against the Palastinians are provoked. Palastenian terrorists have been carrying out a campaign against Israel for a long time now. I feel bad for the innocent Palestinians who are being hurt and killed in the Israeli counter-offensive (if you will) but after seeing the pictures of little Palastenian kids cheering at the tragedy in the US I'm in no mood to sympathize with them. I think we have to realize that the situation in the Middle East has two sides, its not just about Palastenian kids killed by Israeli tanks, its also about Israeli citizens blown up by Palastenian suicide bombers. Further, I think if there are Palastenians being hurt and killed, its not Israel's fault, its the Palastenian Authority's fault. If they were doing their job and curbing criminal terrorists in thier area of authority, arresting, or even just preventing the near daily drive by shootings of Israeli citizens by Palastenians, then I think the Israeli's would probably be exercising a lot more restraint. You have to see the situation from the Israeli point of view, there's these nests of terrorists lurking on their border and the supposed government of Palestine won't do anything about it for fear of losing popular support. What would you do in their situation? Especially if you watched pictures of your cities getting blown up daily and you knew who did it? If we knew which, if any country, was behind the 9-11 tragedy we sure as hell would send the tanks in, and I don't think people would shed many tears for the kids who got killed along the way. If the Palastinian government had been doing its job and keeping law and order (in much the same way the Taliban should be doing) there wouldn't be such an escalating situation.
By far some of the best writing on this event I have seen yet. A unique view and a fascinating perspective.
Peace.
I saw several news reporters break down, I saw several pundits have to stop what they were saying. I don't think you can characterize anyone in the US as being unaffected. I didn't feel anyting but scared on the 11th, and showed very little emotion, but I broked down and cried several times in the next few days. Don't be too harsh just because people aren't showing the emotions you deem to be appropriate.
Why is it that no mainstream news source has mentioned tha fact that Bin Laden was originally trained and funded by the CIA in it's effort to prevent the Soviet Union from taking over Afganistan. After Bin Laden successfully helped the CIA repell the Soviets, the US set up a puppet government in Saudi Arabia (through which they could attack Iraq) which then denied Bin Laden re-entry to the country. This was just the first of many US betrayals against Bin Laden than provoked his revenge mentality.
The chain of events in the middle east over the past 15 years doesn't speak very highly of US foreign policy. First we backed the Shaw (sp?) in Iran and sold them arms, then when they were overthrown, we backed Saddam Hussien and helped him take over Iraq. Then when he failed to do our bidding, we started influincing Saudi Arabia so that we could attack Iraq. Is it any surprise that so many people in the Middle East hate the US? And I haven't even mentioned all the atrocities we've purpetrated through our support of Isreal. If there weren't such fatal consequenses, I would call it laughable.
I didn't vote for Bush and I still wont in the future. I don't care for him at all but having stated that, I cannot ding him for anything substantive that he has done in reaction to this monstrosity.
I do not fault him for the wandering way of getting back to D.C., that was mere prudence - and there is literally nothing he could do in D.C. that he couldn't do from Air Force 1 except make a public feel-good appearance. AF1 was designed to be THE command center in event of nuclear war, I'm sure it's up to the task at hand. He never was out of the loop or out of control by being on AF1.
He is definitely NOT an orator. He never could hold a candle to Clinton or Reagan (I never voted for the latter either - but ya got to give him credit for oratory). He is doing what he can with his limited intellectual facilities. He has enough facility to leave the planning to those with smarts - Colin Powell, Rumsfeld, et. al. They will devise a solid and appropriate response and Bush certainly has the smarts to say "Yay" or "Nay" as appropriate. As for oratory, I cannot say that MY man, Gore, would be much more effective, though he certainly wouldn't stumble over words and meanings and names, but that is cosmetic, not real.
I wont stand by and criticize Bush until he actually makes a REAL mistake...a mistake of judgement, or shows a weakness of fortitude or will. Somehow, in spite of my dislike for the man and his ideas, I really doubt that he will present us with the latter case.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I'm a fairly new Slashdot reader but I have noticed one thing. Jon Katz seems to use Slashdot as his personal soap box. He seems to think his opinions are the only ones. I also noticed that he gets to submit a lot of movie reviews. I understand that he has had a book published, but that does not make him a good writer. Why does he get special treatment? The Slashdot post regulators must have a thing for him. In reading comments from other posts, I have also noticed that I'm not alone in my opinions. I know it probably does no good to bitch about it, but damn it, it makes me feel better!
No problems, only solutions
I have a really great idea, and no, I am not in
the least bit joking:
If our foreign policy is what caused this all, and
people in other countries are tired of us interfering
in their lives and with their countries, then I think
the USA should start today to sit quietly on its
rump and not "intervene" in any other country's
affairs.
-we should immediately stop the H1-B program and
send all the ingrates back to whatever hellhole
from whence they came
-we should immediately stop sending money and
supplies to oppressed and tragedy-stricken
countries
-we should immediately seal off all borders (except
Canada, we like them for the most part) and send
all illegal immigrants back to their country, instead
of letting them collect welfare while working
under-the-table for cash.
-we should immediately stop schooling anyone
not born in the USA.
you see, if we did all these things, we would no
longer feel compelled to have our hands in the
affairs of others...
it's like parents who have raised their kids and
sent them through college, and helped them get a
nice cushy job--they now somehow have the RIGHT
to scold you and sanction you when you screw up,
even though you're 25 years old!
and the parent who leaves the child to fend for
himself at age 10? of course, this person will
likely never have a say in the child's life again.
the authority and respect have not been earned!
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
You must mean spell properly? Is grammar of no importance? :-)
you ran a Google search! Good for you, Karma Whore
Why don't you show some respect Jon and call them police officers, not "cops".
I think we should really examine what policys are pissing people off to this point. I also feel no remorse for countries that want to destroy us just because we are christian. Now if we have wrong them and are assiting another country in attacking them that needs to be examined and halted. No one side of a civil conflict should have the help of bigbrother for destruction only resolution. Since bin ladens has declared war on us..he said so..we should erradicate him. I think airlines need MUCH more stricter security measures, I think carry-on luggage should be banned and stewardesses should be replaced by security guards. With MACE and battons who have all had 20 year background checks. Cockpits should be secure compartments and pilots should ignore all requests to open the door. The cockpit should be self-suffcient bathroom/food etc...and require nothing from the passenger compartment. Pilots should board from a seperate door entirely. People with baggy or loose clothing should be patted down. All personnel at airports should have background and security personnel should be certified..
Extreme actions call for extreme measures.
Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
The news anchors I saw were noticeably shaken compared to the usual cool professionalism. Dan Rather in particular looked like he was about to burst into tears all day, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had been crying off camera--he looked like he had at times. All of them had the starts and shakes in their voices that told this viewer "I'd like to freak out completely, but I'm trying to stay calm and professional for this broadcast".
/., I've learned that Jon Katz is probably a nice guy with a good heart, but his essays seem to come from some slightly twisted parallel Earth that's *almost* like ours, but not quite.
Personally, I think Mr. Katz thought he had a cool sounding turn of phrase about modern media and just had to use it, even if it didn't happen to fit the facts. Either that, or he's displaying his usual vague attachment to reality. After more than a year of reading
He obviously didn't see the same President Bush I did, but I attribute that to the distorting lens of political partisanry. Apparently Peter Jennings is suffering from the same skewed perceptions. I saw a president who had something to say as soon as he got near a camera that was direct and to the point; I also see a president who isn't breaking down on national TV, and who isn't rushing off half-cocked to throw cruise missiles at someone. I see the Administration he picked acting quickly and decisively in a crisis, without going overboard (yet). In short, I see a president acting like a president should, and one who has damn good people supporting him. Did anyone notice that SecDef Rumsfield's first reaction when the plane hit was to go out and help rescue people?
Mayor Giuliani was also doing a damn good job as mayor of NYC, and deserves the plaudits. If I was a New Yorker, he'd definitely get my vote--the man has all his shit in one sock.
Former President Clinton was surprisingly classy when he got to New York and got camera time, and I'm commenting as someone who seriously loathed and despised the man for his entire eight-year abortion of a presidency. His former hanger-on Stephanopolous has been doing a bang-up job as a photo-journalist in New York during this mess; his coverage of the rescue efforts, and of the wreckage of what used to be the heart of NYC has been very interesting and powerfully moving.
I have been very impressed by the way most everyone has been pulling together and ignoring trivial crap like which political party they belong to (with the exception of Peter Jennings). There are also people in this country that I am disgusted by, but so far none of them have been decision makers or reporters (with the exception of Peter Jennings).
---dragoness
The coverage here has been quite complete and is updated fairly regularly....
If the last article is correct, the war starts soon.
Are you really asking why millions around the world hate America? Isn't it plain and clear?
American intervenes when it is in her interest (Iraq - oil) but not when it's not (Ruanda). The US therefore have morally no leg to stand on in the world community, but they keep boasting that they are the beacon of hope for freedom on human rights in the world. Then they happily spit in the face of the world by not paying UN dues, even though they are richer than anybody else. They use more of the world's resources than anybody else per capita, and when it is suggested that that may endanger the future, they laugh it off and ignore international treaties. The world is almost uninamously in agreement that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians should be condemned, but the US uses its veto power (why do they deserve veto power anyway?) to stop all action in that direction. Poor countries are desparately trying to protect their fragile economies from foreign competition, but the US insists that even the weakest immediately join the free trade world economic order and compete on equal terms with her own sophisticated industry. The US hoard intellectual property and then complains when poor countries start to manufacture Aids drugs which are otherwise unaffordable.
Is it really that hard to understand?
Why doing revenge with the same methods terrorists attack?
We are in the capitalist world, we control most of
the money flowing around. So why not just get all those millions from Bin Laden and others to finance the rebuild?
With some will there are ways to find that money.
George
Atari rules... ermm... ruled.
There are news all over that Sikhs are beign targeted because of their dress. I cannot imagine if people cannot make a distinction between two religions, or people who wear head dress, how are they going to find bin laden?? To make matters worse the media is not helping either. The person pulled from Amtrak trian in Rhode Isalnd was a Sikh not a bin laden associate. If the law enforcement agencies cannot make that distinction, I highly doubt their efficiency.
Moreover at the airports the police need to man the metal detectors and the xray machines. This would give them some purpose instead of harassing innocent motorists on the highway and issuing them tickets..
Please take a look at this. I think this says it very beautifully.
r ad e/digdocs/008039.htm
http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/worldt
A whole country of the fattest, most spoiled, and most self-righteous people on the planet are filled with indignant fury, and the country's leaders (elected by popular vote) ...
Correction. SOME of the elected leaders were elected by popular vote. The administration was NOT elected by popular vote. The administration LOST the popular vote.
Correction. I am an American and I am far from "fat" or "spoiled" unless by spoiled you mean I live in a country designed by and for freedom with a Constitution that protects the rights of men AND women, the rights of the majority and IN PARTICULAR, the rights of the minority against the tyranny of the majority(sometimes ignored or thwarted but the spirit and design is there).
That said, the Administration is handling this thing appropriately, competently, and correctly thus far. In any case, no matter how "fat" or "spoiled" a people, the atrocity committed is indefensible and utterly reprehensible and is to be condemned and PUNNISHED. Period.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
This is a very good idea. Please don't believe the enourmous amount of propaganda you people eagerly swallow. The US does nothing to help suffering, it only sends aid to "sympathetic" governments. The US is not alone though, all governments do this. Stop pretending you are the victims, you're as guilty as the rest of us.
Oh by the way, if terrorism is so bad could you please stop funding the people blowing up the people on the streets of London and Belfast or are they the freedom fighters. It's so hard to tell the diffence these days.
Yeah, and McDonalds, and Barbie, and WWF, and American Gladiators, and...
Talk about an oxymoron...
cLive ;-)
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
If GORE had been president we'd have all been asleep by the time his short speech was over...., Sorry but I heard the President's statement over the radio and it sounded fine to me.
Listening to his advisors (Secret Service and Cheney telling him don't go to Washington yet, and Washington itself was being evacuated), landing in Louisiana to make a statement to show he's alive and around, moving on to US Strategic command base hold a meeting with key gov't officials, are returning to DC when the all clear was given, seems like someone who is making good decisions at a dangerous confusing time while keeping the government running and responding to this devastating attacks.
the US has definitely funded its share of *bad*
people, but do those mistakes counteract the aid
we have sent to the tens of countries in the past
decade alone?
point me to whatever perfect country you're living
in, please, because I would like to live in the
same Utopia you seem to be enjoying!
I'm not saying the US is always a nice place to
live... we have bad laws, government officials
that care more about padding their own pockets
than about doing the right thing, and civilians
who don't always treat each other with the amount
of respect they should, but as I look around, I'm
not seeing any other country doing anyhting much
better.
My $0.02
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
At the time, America-bashing was fashionable - in particular, the Viet Nam war was unpopular in many places.
Sinclair's editorial struck a strong resonance against the bashing fad; leading many Canadians to think again about the many positive aspects of our neighbours and to stop thinking exclusively about their few failings.
So, the references to draft dodgers was current when the editorial was written; the Boeing Jumbo Jet was at the top of the aircraft industry, and so on.
Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue.
Guiliani did not rush to the scene. He rushed to the city's emergency operations center, which was located adjacent to the WTC, where he was nearly killed in the collapse. That is his place in a situation like this. It is unfortunate (and in hindsight, perhaps stupid) that it was located where it was.
My own city has had similar situations. The city's EOC was previously located in a flood-prone area and the current one is located in an area that would be surrounded by water in the not unlikely event of a serious storm.
She is 5'9", blond and placed in the Miss Poland beauty pageant when she was 21 - if you saw here you would stare. She speaks three languages, has traveled to China, Thailand, USSR, Israel, Africa and probably plenty more places I haven't heard about yet. She learned English in London.
She has a degree in programming and knows UNIX, too (seriously). Although she has forgotten a lot since she hasn't used it in ten years.
Who's the retard? =)
I (not the original poster) have no idea if it is still true, but it certainly was true during the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The reformer John Hus was burned at the stake *AFTER* he had been given guarantees of safe conduct; the papal officials justified it by saying that vows or promises to heretics were not binding.
---dragoness
Remember!?
If this is what Mr.Katz thought... big deal! He's not shoving it down anyone's throat.
Just my humble opinion...
v.26
This link was passed around, even heard quotes from it on a local radio station:
http://bb12.betterbox.net/~fusion/patriotic.html
Why? Do you think homeless people don't appreciate quality? Or is it because you consider them beneath you? Hmmm, I think that sig says more about you than I need to know.
cLive ;-)
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
Jon,
Did you not see the coverage of the President when he spoke candidly with reporters yesterday? Did you miss the anguish in his voice, the tears in his eyes, and the pain on his face?
I will grant you that President Bush isn't as dynamic a public speaker as the past few Presidents. But that is part of shows me what kind of leader he is. He doesn't hide his emotions behind some facade, he wears them on his sleeve for all to see.
Hiding in bunkers? We suffered a big enough national tragedy on Tuesday, adding the loss of the President on top of that would have multiplied the tragedy by an exponential amount. I for one stand behind his (and the Secret Service's) decision to keep President Bush out of harm's way until the situation was more under control.
You missed the bus again JonKatz...
Fifty Years of Appeasement Led to Black Tuesday
Fifty years of increasing American appeasement in the Mideast have led to fifty years of increasing contempt in the Muslim world for the U.S. The inevitable climax was the tens of thousands of deaths on September 11, 2001--the blackest day in our history, so far. The Palestinians, among others, responded by dancing in the streets and handing out candy.
Fifty years ago, Truman and Eisenhower ceded to the Arabs the West's property rights in oil--although that oil properly belonged to those in the West whose science and technology made its discovery and use possible.
This capitulation was not practical, but philosophical. The Arab dictators were denouncing the wealthy egoistic West. They were crying that the masses of their poor needed our sacrifice; that oil, like all property, is owned collectively, by virtue of birth; and that they knew all this by means of ineffable or otherworldly emotion. Our Presidents had no answer. Implicitly, they were ashamed of the Declaration of Independence. They did not dare to answer aloud that Americans, rightfully, were motivated by the selfish desire to pursue personal happiness in a rich, secular, individualist society.
The Arabs embodied in extreme form every idea--selfless duty, anti-materialism, faith or feeling above science, the supremacy of the group--which our universities and churches, and our own political Establishment, had long been preaching as the essence of virtue. When two groups, our leadership and theirs, accept the same basic ideas, the most consistent wins.
After property came liberty. The Iranian dictator Khomeini threatened with death a British author--and with destruction his American publisher--if they exercised their right to free speech. He explained that the book in question offended the religion of his people. The Bush Administration looked the other way.
After liberty came American life itself--as in Iran's support of the massacre of our soldiers in Saudi Arabia, and the Afghanistan-based assault on our embassies in East Africa. Again, the American response was unbridled appeasement: a Realpolitikisch desire not to "jeopardize relations" with the aggressor country, covered up by a purely rhetorical vow to punish the guilty, along with an occasional pretend bombing. By now, the world knows that we are indeed a paper tiger.
We have not only appeased terrorists, we have actively created them. The Reagan Administration--holding that Islamic fundamentalists were our ideological allies in the fight against the atheistic Soviets--poured money and expertise into Afghanistan to create an ever-growing band of terrorists recruited from all over the Mideast. Most of these terrorists knew what to do with their American training; their goal was not to save Afghanistan.
The final guarantee of American impotence is the bipartisan proclamation that a terrorist is an individual alone responsible for his actions, and that "we must try each before a court of law." This is tantamount, while under a Nazi aerial bombardment, to seeking out and trying the pilots involved while ignoring Hitler and Germany.
Terrorists exist only through the sanction and support of the governments behind them. Their lethal behavior is that of the regimes that make them possible. Their killings are not crimes, but acts of war. The only proper response to such acts is war in self-defense.
We do not need more evidence to "pinpoint" the perpetrators of any one of these atrocities, including the latest and most egregious--we already have total certainty with regard to the governments primarily responsible for the repeated slaughter of Americans in recent years. We must now use our unsurpassed military to destroy all branches of the Iranian and Afghani governments, regardless of the suffering and death this will bring to the many innocents caught in the line of fire. We must wipe out the terrorist training camps or sanctuaries, and eliminate any retaliatory military capability--and thereby terrorize and paralyze all the tyrannies watching, who will now know what is in store for them if they choose in any form to attack the U.S. That will be the end of the terrorists.
Our missiles and occupation troops, however, will be effective only if they are preceded by our President's morally righteous statement that we intend hereafter to defend by every means possible each American's right to his property, his liberty, and his secure enjoyment of life here on earth.
To those who oppose war, I ask: If not now, when? How many more corpses are necessary before this country should take action?
The choice today is mass death in the United States or mass death in the terrorist nations. President Bush must decide whether it is his duty to save Americans or the governments who seek to kill them.
By Leonard Peikoff
Dont know if this link made it one of the previous posts on this subject...
i at ion/read.main/336291/4/
But apparently the grim situation of planes striking the WTC towers was discussed about a year ago...
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_av
Briefly noted on EPrarie:
http://www.eprarie.com/
Don't even bother with that anonymous idiot.
Meddling? Is that what you call it? I call it humanitariuan intervention versus persuing American economic interests...
First off, the World War's were not a european civil war. Europe isn't, and has never been a country. It is a series of countries, who in 1939, had two agressors who decided to try and conquor the continent.
The US likes to get involved when it will protect its interests. The reason it has gotten so involved in the middle east is because of oil. Everyone knows that oil runs America, and you people can't get along without more then your fair share of it. Why do you think the US supports israel? Because it needs a non-OPEC, non-arab country in the middle east to help protect its interests. The US got involved in Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, etc, to help topple socialist governments. Why? Because at the time Americans were terrified of anyone with an ideology of socialism. They supported the fascists in these countries to turn them into capitalist trading partners.
On the other hand, why didn't the UN get involved in Rwanda? There was a genocide going on, and the only person trying to stop it was Canadian Romeo Demare, and his troops. Why didn't the US get involved in Cambodia? I mean, there were only 1.2 million people slaughtered. Right, no american interests. In fact, Cambodia was fighting with Laos, which helped out the US. Why aren't they getting involved in Afganistan? Because of sanctions. There are only 1.5 million people starving to death, but then there's a terrorist leader and oppresive government in the country, so we should sanction them.
Whay American refuses to realize that that Americans have the same rights as everyone else on earth. Every human is garaunteed equality, food, shelter, education, and a host of other things. I think that the US should follow the example of other countries and go to war to protect these rights in people. For the richest country in the world, you sure aren't acting like it.
-Michael Roy
roy@videon.wave.ca
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
I called it! Back on Tuesday afternoon, I posted here and on numerous other forums that the death toll would most likely be 2-3 thousand. I based this on a statistical analysis of the damage patterns and extrapolation based on past tragedies of this sort. All the talking heads should have just listened to me. But no, they'd rather pull numbers like 20,000 out of the air.
Buddy, I wasn't mocking America: I was mocking you, specifically.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
I think you managed to sum up all my feelings about Bush over the last week. I found his reponses to be too little, too late, and too profoundly lacking in any emotion whatsoever. I was appalled. I'd never been impressed by Giuliani before this week, but right now I have to say he would have done an infinitely better job as president than Bush did.
~ Leilah
And a slightly acrid smell, even from here. It's amazingly close to home.
Funny, I though New Jersey always had an acrid smell. A day the adverb "slightly" applies is a good day.
Hey the Iraqui people do not have the privelage of knowing the whole truth OK? and so they blindly follow what they get, and the Leaders will not care if they starve that much. If saddam wants a Filet Mignon, he will get it. its the citizens who dont know better that suffer. when you say its Iraq's doing, its only the leaders who know what the fuck is going on. the rest have been starving and dying for over 10 years due to the lack of accessable knowlage and the noncaring of the gov't. Iraq (the nation) is the only one who suffers for Iraq (Saddam and friends) lack of compliance. So nothing will happen and both sides can go on believing farie tales.
unless bush puts a ton of trops on a plane sends them to afganistan and brings back all of the taliban and hesbola members to the states for trian and inediate execution. plus enforces a compleate ban on all trade with any contryies who tacitly alow , endorse, or harber terrorists ( including isreal) i think this whole thing will be a joke. rosevelt would have called a joint session of congress and declared a state of total war with any and all terrorists and the contries that harbor them. this is a golden opertunity to root out terrorisim in all its form in our world. to pass it up would be a crime
Just a small addition to the best idea, I've heard in the discussion since now...
Hopefully the world wants America's Way of Life. A way of life which speaks of freedom and democracy but all along brings McDonalds, TV (violence, pornography and Hollywood), Pokemon...
For us this all are great things (my little sister just loves Pokemon), but to others this is almost cultural blasphemy. The blessings of modern american civilization aren't so welcome everywhere. Sometimes it is perceived to take away the freedom from you.
So while I like all of those, I can understand people hating them...
One last remark:
Everybody is praying right now. I'm asking myself what god they pray to. They can't be Christian. Christians hold the other cheek. Jesus told us to get over this "eye-for-an-eye"-mentality.
Its obvious Katz and the majority of the Slashdot crew will never like anything a person on the right of the political spectrum will ever do. Its sad that even the fake news has a liberal bias. All Katz ever does is bitch and rant about whatever subject is in the news at the time. Does he even have a real job, or is this it? There are thousands of untalented writers looking for work, why did slashdot choose this one?
Interesting how all the news is concerned with is "catching the bad guys" and war war war. How about stopping the problem at its source, and stop pissing off nations in the middle east. Trade embargoes, puppet governments to protect oil interests, and an overall careless attitude for the last 30 years is what got the WTC blown up. I'm certain the US's embargoes have killed more innocent people than this one-time attack. Of course CNN wont discuss this, because they trying to brainwash you into hating arabs, so when the time comes to go to war and kill innocent people you'll be cheering in the streets just like those Palestians were yesterday. But remember, WE are the GOOD guys.
Why stick up for big business?
I feel as though we should find the terrorists and put them in front of the courts. This will show the rest of the world that Americans *CAN* be fair, in light of the tragic and vengeful voices portrayed in the media. I also feel that we should do anything that we can to avoid killing ANY innocent citizen.
I also feel that we can all come out stronger after this. U.S. has been a bully to other nations, but we sure as hell didn't "deserve" this. We do a lot to help out other nations who will ally with us. If you extend an arm to a person walking down the street and they refuse to shake your hand, you don't have a good view of that person.
I feel that G.W. will do the right thing (I voted for Gore)
I am saddened and embarassed by the television and print news outlets' rush to print unverified stories. This to me is reminiscent of last November. I feel like I can't trust anything I hear now because so much has been but out there and then rescinded. Haven't they learned anything? I have yet to find a source of good accurate information, or people answering or even asking the questions that immediately spring to my mind. Everybody seems too busy revelling in the sadness of it all, for one thing. The evocation of strong emotion is an easy job for TV, and they swing us from sadness to anger to patriotism by the second and it's all CHEAP MAUDLIN CRAP!
We should be better than this. Is it better on cable? I only have broadcast TV...
The US has pushed Isreal for the past 10 years to come to terms with the Palestinians. Isreal gave in to 98% of the Palestinian demands. The only things they did not do was (1) Give complete control of the Temple Mount to the Palestinians (instead insisting on joint access because its also a Jewish holy site) and (2) kill all Jews in Isreal. The Palestinians decided they didn't really want a homeland without the last two items and the second intafatad occured.
+ The US bent over backwards to help the PLO and this is our thanks.
+ The US bent over backwards to defend Saudi Arabia and the Islamic holy places within from Iraq (which prior to the gulf war was the most anti-Islamic of the Arabic countries). And this is our thanks.
+ The US tried really, really hard not to kill civilians in Iraq and this is our thanks.
The Islamic world does not respect compromise and weakness and the USA is realizing that now. If you thought our help was unfriendly you haven't seen what things will be like when the US really gets angry. The gloves are off.
So, the original AC that you replied to didn't actually get anything wrong. He never claimed that it wasn't a British ship, just that it was a commercial passenger ship rather than a military ship.
dont you people get it. terrorists cant be reasoned with . contries like lybia afganistan iran iraq and pakistan actively support and harbor terrorisim. many people say that the US is a bully. well if i had a bunch of phycopathic killers in my house and i was giving them directions to your house. while saying . its ok i understand your need to kill. i think you would call me a bully if not pretty crazy myselfe. its the same thing. no government is perfect. but the us is pretty close. i think russias policies on dealing with terrorisim and kidnaping are more appropriate. line up ten of their people . innocent or not and shoot them every hour. untill the guilty parties are extradited or the kidnaped are returned. you dont see this kinda stuff happening to the russians. the middle east knows if they tried this with russia the middle east would be a glass parking lot by now. guilty or not proof or not. unless you make the consequenses for these actions so horendus that perpetrating them would be unthinkable. do you think that we would have terrorists if they knew that their famalies frends and everyone they knew would be massacared for their actions. it wouldnt take mutch just one or two examples. and poof no more teerorisim. i may sound harsh but sometimes the cold hard truth does.
"It was odd how cool and natural all of the reporters and anchors were. Everybody said they were shocked, but nobody seemed to be."
No Jon, that wasn't odd at all...
Reporters (especially News Anchors) have to deal with reporting tragedies
large and small, distant and personal, every day. Part of the many
years of experience they put into the role is learning to control
thier own emotional response to tragedy in order to better serve the
public need for accurate information, especially in this age where
a mis-reported piece of data can become instantly repeated around
the world thru the very advent of networked system that also bring
them the basic news items that they are trying to disseminate.
I was listening to NPR (National Public Radio) coverage for as long
as I could stand during this past week; and there we're many occasions
during this tragedy where the reporters were either unable to continue
a line of questioning, or we're simply too overwhelmed to continue reading
the various reports that were constantly being thrust in front of them
moment by moment.
I was amazed and impressed that they could continue reporting the
news, when I know that so many of them have personal experience with
many of the places and people struck down by these events.
And I am thankful that they were able to serve so calmly, to help
in reducing widespread panic, and to serve some small part in the
rescue efforts that are still ongoing.
What the hell are you talking about ?
.. are you fucking nuts ?
"we dread above all else: peace, love and understanding. "
Do you dread those things ? Do you see people in US lusting after blood of some people they never met ?
Seriously, do you think that people you see in the supermarket are just waiting and hoping for a war ? Do you believe their hearts are filled with hatred of others ?
Sorry, I have to ask this
As i sat in first period art calss in asutin,tx. i gaped in horror at the actions taken against the US. All of it live on cnn. WE watched hundreds die live on television and i am suprised we are not as disturbed as we were. I am now filled with anger and hope the bastards get what they diserve.
The BBC world service covered this story a lot though I don't know how much N.Am. media did. I recall one small story about it on cbc.ca, but mostly I heard about it on the radio. Every day in fact. The Afghan judge trying their cases was apparently openly calling for a harsh sentence before the trial! Disturbing to say the least, well beyond the gut "westerners languishing in third world jail" emotional response one gets. Most Afghans would probably let them go free if they could, but their gov't is of a different mind. In fact, I suspect they probably *were* prosyletising (sp?) and thus are in fact guilty under current Afghan law. A civilized gov't would kick them out - now alas they share an unfair fate with the Afghan people...
Freedom: "I won't!"
"O'Reilly Factor" method of news reporting "
,it is editorializing and you are bitching because you don't like his point of view and not because somehow he is more biased than Jim Lehrer is.
That is not reporting
I have no problem with you watching PBS but , please, at least admit that you do that because views presented there better represent your point of view and not because these people are less biased.
"This planet is so stupid it might be contagious!"
...
And the worst part is
You are part of it and willing going along ( apart from occasional inconsequential rant on some web site.)
Get back when you have something better.
Sir, I know why you chose to remain an anonymous coward. You have no knowledge of the world at large. We have extended the olive branch to every country that hass given us the opportunity. At times we put ourselves in danger doing this. Many of my friends were attacked while we were offering aid to starving people in Somalia. The truth of the matter is that the US gives aid were aid is deserved as demonstrated by the cooperation of the reigning government of the time. The message is simple and clear. We will help you, if you let us and abide by the international community's wishes. If you visit the horrors of war upon us or our friends prepare to have them visited upon you in return.
Switzerland doesn't have a terrorist problem.
Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Holland, Monaco,
don't have terrorist problems.
Empires always have terrorist problems. Empires always fall, no exceptions, and faster and faster as the possible scope of Empire/government has increased.
Seems pretty obvious what to do to me.
Lew
"The Constitution, the WHOLE Constitution, and nothing but the CONSTITUTION."
Let me direct your attention to Afghanistan and the Taliban.
You would not DREAM of suggesting that the Apartied of South Africa 20 years ago was a "not inherently worse" culture, because you understand the systematic oppression of black people is morally repugnant. You would not DREAM of suggesting that Nazi Germany was "not inherently worse", because you understand that the systematic oppression (and murder) of Jews, Romani, etc. is morally repugnant.
But evidently you don't find the systematic oppression of women quite so troubling. Evidently to you, the Taliban's quaint cultural custom of making chattels of half their people is just as valid and reasonable as our culture. Have you any idea of what has been done to women in that country?
Perhaps the Taliban is not representative of "traditional Islamic culture", but then that is the culture being discussed.
You make me sick.
I think 0.5 meters of compacted matter per story is probably an overestimate. Also consider that a significant amount of matter scattered laterally when it approached ground level; the current rescue efforts aren't at the base of the former towers, but in the substantial rubble field that now surrounds the plaza.
considering bush's previously moderate approval ratings and the weak economy, some leftist friends of mine are stipulating this was us gov't sponsored. I am of course appalled by this..
props for the mark twain reference...
it's unfortunately very applicable
Hmmm. The US did help the UK immensely with equipment and cash during WWII. Without it we'd have taken years longer before we'd have been able to invade Europe. Then again, even with US help, if the Germans hadn't attacked Russia things wouldn't have looked good. Still, it does piss me off when Americans claim that without them, we'd be speaking German - they didn't bankrupt an entire empire to make a stand on a matter of principle without even being attacked. The UK did.
I don't expect Americans to 'die for every other country in the world'. I don't even hold it against them that they delayed so long in entering WWII. I do hold it against America that they insist on economic and military sanctions against people long after it's justified or necessary. How many Iraqi civilians have to die before the US is happy? Just how much longer will Cuba be the pariah of its own continent when the US has absolutely no sensible basis for persecuting it?
American aggression in Iraq continues now. Why did the Iraqis just shoot down a US spy plane? Was it flying in Turkey, or Iran, or Jordan? Or was it invading the Iraqi airspace, flying over militarily sensitive targets? Is it part of the same airforce that has bombed Iraq already this year? I believe it might. And you don't consider that aggressive?
Finishing the Gulf War: America trained up Saddam, as good as said they wouldn't mind if he invaded Kuwait, reneged, destroyed his army, caused widespread hardship for his people, and now complains because he's pissed at them? What exactly is this, a US case study on how to best give people reasons for terrorism?
No, I guess I don't concede the rest of his points
~Cederic
You couldn't be further from the truth:
I consistently agree with O'Reilly on issues. However, I dislike his vitriolic, aggresive, and often rude methods. His comments are regularly irrational and occasionally just plain ridiculous. Did any SlashDotters catch his Tuesday-or was it Wednesday?-interview with a guest about Airline security? The guest commented that Americans are often hesitant to surrender freedoms to National security forces, a reasonable statement, especially relative to the average SlashDotter. O'Reilly proceeded to jump all over him, denying that Americans might have reservations about the power of the FBI, CIA, NSA, et al.
He regularly browbeats his guests, especially those he disagrees with. My two-bit ananlysis of the phenomonon of his success: many viewers find vicarious pleasure when watching O'Reilly abuse guests that they disagree with.
I prefer the NewsHour's approach: arrange a panel with well-behaved and well-spoken representatives from both sides of the political spectrum, add an Academic or two, then moderate with an intelligent, informed, professional, and unfaillingly courteous journalist.
Publications and Organizations whose writers/leaders are regularly represented: Weekly Standard, National Review, The Nation, Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, ACLU, Cato Institute, American Enterprise Institute, NAACP. The list goes on and on, and includes just about every well known conservative and liberal publication/organisation in the country.
As to Jim Lehrer's bias: you are absolutely wrong. I've watched him for years and still have no idea what his politics are (and if anyone knows, for God sakes don't tell me). You've failed to grasp the fact that Jim Lehrer's political androgony is precisely what I find appealing: I firmly believe that he, and many others in his newsroom, are completely committed to providing me with the information that I need to make a judgement. That's most certainly not the case with O'Reilly and most, or at least many, other journalists.
To sum-up: I would agree that O'Reilly editorializes, but at least in his case it's obvious. Many other journalists mask their editorial bias behind a facade of journalistic balance. A rare few, Lehrer among them, actually attempt to convey the facts and are willing to let their viewers make up their own mind.
Now let's address the war, and how to really win it.
We need to cut off our enemy's blood supply in two ways.
First, by re-starting the peace process. We were close last time. We must pressure Israel, hard (I mean really hard) to get back to where it was, in terms of a deal with the Palestinians (some of whom are Christian, not Muslim). That will eliminate a cause of the conflict.
Many Jews and supporters of Israel say this is impossible. They dehumanize all Palestinians. But they have practical alternative to peace. They must either commit genocide, suicide, or come right back to where they were a year ago. There are no other choices. And the United States cannot support either of those first two choices any more.
Second, we need to switch from hydrocarbon-based energy to hydrogen-based energy. Electricity from wind, or surf, or sun can produce hydrogen, and liquify it. Hydrogen can be combined with oxygen from the air to create energy in fuel cells used in transport and for electrical power generation. These non-grid sources of non fossil-fuel energy are necessary not just for the environment, but to destroy our dependence on Middle East oil, which fuels the tyrannies Muslims rail against as well as Bin Laden himself.
I agree, in general, with most of the posts on this board. We need to declare war on Afghanistan. We must take out the Taliban, pour in food and medicine for the people, and hunt down the heart of Bin Laden's cells. I don't object to anything the U.S. government has proposed in terms of the war -- I just object to their ignorance on how to end it and secure the peace.
While there has been plenty of creepy (and likely bogus) coincidence with that alt.prophecy.nostradamus guy, there is still a number of other chilling or otherwise creepy things to dig up from the past that relate, and maybe put into perspective, 9/11's events. Got passed this one [Airliners.net] just now; not sure how many have seen it yet. Apologies for redundancy. But the last post in the batch above was particularly prophetic, and I needed to share.
Kineska: Cinema, soapbox, music & musings
Some may take offense, but I think it's the perfect, defiant, and ultimately New York gesture there is for rebuilding:
The NEW World Trade Center[home.net]
Desperately needing to laugh with someone, and this is a start.
Kineska: Cinema, soapbox, music & musings
umm... airbus makes planes dont they? I guess those dumb Europeeans who keep on sponging off the US figured that out.
Although out of the following countries, the USA is by far the biggest in both population and economy, its economic aid doesnt seem to reflect that. The US with a population ten times that of Canada donates just 3-4 times more money in the form of economic aid. Not what youd expect of the leading superpower.
Japan
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $9.1 billion (1999)
USA
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $6.9 billion (1997)
Canada
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $2.1 billion (1997)
France
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $6.3 billion (1998)
UK
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $3.4 billion (1997)
Germany
Economic aid - donor: ODA, $5.6 billion (1998)
courtesy of your CIA world factbook.
"A whole country of the fattest, most spoiled, and most self-righteous people on the planet are filled with indignant fury, and the country's leaders (elected by popular vote) know that all they need to do for their approval ratings to shoot through the roof is FAN THE FLAMES OF WAR"
--The point that the American population in whole has no real power behind the insult. The reason that people are fat is because our advancements in medecine, technology, and overall efficiency allows us to be lazy... leading to low exercise and weight gain. So just because we don't have to walk to work, manually tend to a farm, or even wipe our own asses anymore shouldn't come off as an insult. We're smart enough where we can invent the technology to make our lives eaiser.
Bush wasn't elected on popular vote... do your homework...
Even if they were, that shouldn't be an insult. Having somenone become the leader of a country due to their blood-line or who they marry is totally idiotic. well... ok... so maybe that helped bush a little that his daddy was prez, but still you get my point) If someone comes into power by declaration of the current leader... thats pretty frekin stupid too. Democracy is the only safe way of government.
The US isn't the only people goin to war here (again... do your homework). The entire NATO alliance has envoked article 5 that says that an attack on one is an attack on all... NOT goin to war would be a horrible move on our part. All it's doing is appeasing the terrorists, who will continue bombing and killing lives if we don't fight back... if we don't fight back, it would be an invitation for terrorists to begin open hunting on Americans.
"The real enemy of freedom in this attack is the narrow-minded delusions both Christians and Muslims willingly indulge in; the fundamentalist Muslim delusions just happen to be more immediately violent. Bush's reading of Psalm 23 during his 9/11 Oval Office speech is so ironic it's laughable."
--I'm pretty sure that the book of psalms was written before Christianity... before Jesus was even born. Most psalms were written through the inspiration of David. They're insightful, powerful, and do not directly point to christianity. A beautiful quote has no race, nationality, or religion... just pure inspiration...
They were attacking a free society; one whose generous liberties are at odds with their view of what is right. They were out to dammage [sic] or destroy a way of life that makes a mockery of their rigid, authoritarian views. And if, as a result of their actions, we curtail our own freedoms -- change our way of life, then their attack will have succeeded, their objective will have been attained.
Is this just complete speculation on your part? How did you come to the conclusion that that's their motivation?
Way to go, Usians! Really civilized...
There's ignorant, violent, racist people in every country. To point to that kind of behaviour and say that that's what Americans are like is no different than pointing out what the terrorists did and then saying that's what Muslims are like.
Yes, but that was an armed invasion, I'm talking about something where the 'invaders' are armed with food and construction equiptment, not military weapons.
>At worst, you'd end up with a different crew, with the same tendencies. And again, terrorists would continue about on their merry way.
If that eventuates, then at least we can say we tried. But I don't think that it is true. I don't think you are seeing the same documentaries that we are. Women risking death in secret 'make up' parties. Teaches risking death for teaching girls.
>If there's anything we (by which I mean much of the world, not just the US) need to learn, it's that democracy requires a certain social structure, or it will not work. Just putting in a voting system and a piece of paper with a constitution does not turn a place into a democracy, else Haiti, Serbia and Moldavia would be the most democratic countries on earth. Said social structure must be developed and grown by the people in question, it can't just be created in a vacuum.
But building hospitals, schools and roads will take time. It will also take the employment of many, many Afghani. Here is an opportunity for them to see western culture working - not failing.
>Lastly, most Afghans are being squashed by the Taliban. They don't like it. They put up with it partly out of fear of the Taliban, partly because they fear the West, and the Taliban promise protection from the West. A little respect and discrimination (in the sense of "discerning between various groups", not in the sense of "excluding certain groups for no good reason") would go a long way towards alleviating that fear. The Afghani people haven't, I think, forgotten the help they received against the Russians. They may be bitter that they received no followup after driving the Russians out, but one shouldn't underestimate the character of a people, based on the actions of a lunatic who's from another country entirely. I think the character of a people who have withstood incursion after incursion must be extraordarily strong.
That's my point. Going in 'in peace' with the whole world watching means that the US cannot 'misbehave' and *will* leave (after reconstruction is complete). Use Japan, Germany and the Marshall Plan as an example of what has been done before. They *will* want that. Tell them in their own terms that it is the charity that Islam requires of us.
>In summary, I think invasion, in the name of peace or otherwise, would harden them against reason. They might make allowances for a time, if it were understood to be a quick and swift attack to root out those responsible for last Tuesday. But trying to impose an outside order on them, then expect them to like us? Arrogance disguised as benevolence. Patronizing. Let's learn from history, people, that's what it's for.In summary, I think invasion, in the name of peace or otherwise, would harden them against reason. They might make allowances for a time, if it were understood to be a quick and swift attack to root out those responsible for last Tuesday. But trying to impose an outside order on them, then expect them to like us? Arrogance disguised as benevolence. Patronizing. Let's learn from history, people, that's what it's for.
It isn't patronising if the U.N. does this. The U.N. is not a nation, it's the closest we have to a world government. It isn't imposing an outside order, it is ensuring that they get to choose one in a threat free context. No factions playing with guns permitted, only factions playing with words.
Also, if you send in essentially unarmed construction workers (with a quick strike force available do deal with those who initiate violence) then they haven't got much if any excuse. Islam requires both that charity be given and be *accepted*. There are enough Arab Americans (>3M) so that you could could do this with people who really understand their culture. Even iff it took a long time and cost a lot of money, remember that Bin Ladin and his ilk are not far from having access to nukes. If these problems can't be solved now, then we are all history. Flood the place with supplies, keep on giving until their attitudes change. Then let them arrest the criminals for you.
>(Sorry for the strong reaction, it's not just to the replied-to post, it's sort of pent up in reaction to many posts in the last several days)
It's hardly surprising that you feel so. But I din't feel your reaction excessive. Be at peace.
But one last thing, your media do not serve you well. Every person I know who has visited the United States is amazed at the ignorance of Americans to what is happening outside it's borders. This isn't because Americans are ignorant, it is because you media 9as does everyones media) tells you want they think you want to hear. In other countries we have more benefit of "over-the-border" opinions.
You really should take an active look at what your country is doing in the rest of the world. But, God bless you all.
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
>it's unfortunately very applicable
I thought I was refering to George Bernard Shaw.
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
If the US escalates this into open warfare with an Arabian country then things are going to get very ugly. Hopefully you guys can just get in, shoot Bin Laden between the eyes along with 100 or so of his closest lapdogs, and get out!
Because statements like this vaguely concern me re: The Australian Arabic Council
"The Arab people, spread over a vast area, enjoy common bonds of history and tradition. Members of twenty-two different countries, the Arabs consider themselves to be part of one nation."
I posted something to this effect as a reply to an earlier comment, so with the risk of being redundant...
Spending the day at work without access to TV or radio forced me to completely rely on the net as a news source, and since all the majot news sites were down, I checked a number of forum sites (mostly slashdot, but maybe a dozen others too) to see what other people knew and discuss my thoughts with others. If this didn't give me a human angle on the events, I don't know what ever could - and it was in fact dozens of different angles, ranging from various eyewitness accounts to people being worried about friends and relatives, to people (usually the ones less personally involved) willing to discuss their take on the politicla background. Differences to TV:
*Not only did the Net present dozens of different viewpoints (as opposed to just getting CNN's angle), but all these people cama forth and spoke of their own accord because they had something to share - no sensationalist journalists sticking microphones in people's faces and asking "how did you feel?", "were you afraid?" or similar crap.
*In addition, it was immediately possible to join in on discussions, tell people they were mistaken about their facts, offer opinions and get comments on them.
As a whole, I was absolutely impressed by the Internet's capabilities as a medium for communication. Make no mistake, the couple of thousand people coming to slashdot and the substantially larger number of people reading news online at cnn.com or bbc.co.uk are nothing compared to the millions who watched the series of events on TV, but the potential is there - and I expect to see more and more activity on the Net with future major news events.
frotz grue
I was watching here in South Africa live after the planes had hit but before the buildings collapsed, about about an hour after the attacks began, and it was as I remember it about 3 PM here. We are on the same time as Jerusalem, so from the time of the attacks there were probably at least four hours more of daylight up there in which to have shot those scenes. So this indymedia story sounds to me like it is probably FUD. In fact "3 PM" sounds pretty accurate to me. Lets get our facts straight here and keep FUD off /. and elsewhere. Check before you post, it isn't complex math.
NOT goin to war would be a horrible move on our part. All it's doing is appeasing the terrorists, who will continue bombing and killing lives if we don't fight back
Not going to war would be even worse than that. Not going to war means allowing various countries to continue giving safe harbour (and organizations to continue financing) terrorist organizations. The level of terrorism was raised a couple notches Tuesday, but by allowing terrorists to continue, you give them the freedom and ability to raise the level a few notches more sometime in the future. That is, by not stamping out terrorism now (and if that requires a war, so be it), we pave the way for the next level, which would undoubtedly be slaughter by the millions, not thousands. Terrorist organizations are widespread, well-financed and well-protected .. this allows terrorists to perhaps build nuclear or biological weapons. The madmen of this world (e.g. pot pol, hitler etc) have proven that there is no limit to the scale of mass-murder by an individual, and sooner or later one of these terrorists (perhaps bin Laden) will decide to take terrorism to the next level (if someone will willingly kill up to 50,000 people or more, as this attack had the potential to do, then why not 200,000? and why not 1,000,000 then?). This must be stopped before it ever gets that far, and that means doing whatever is necessary to prevent terrorists from having that safe haven and financing.
No one that I've read has made a connection between the raids on a major host of arabic websites, more than a week ago and the events of tuesday. Coincidence? Maybe. But it may also indicate that the authorities did have some indications that something was afoot.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
chmod a+x /bin/laden
Strange how people advocate more gun control laws, even after tragedies were no guns were used at all! Ban kitchen knives and box cutters instead!
Through all the mourning, chaos, soul-searching, fear and discussion of the past week, one question emerges larger than all others. What do we do?
We must minimize the effectiveness of this attack and we must prevent anything like it from happening again.
To minimize the effectiveness of this horrific act, we must strengthen those things which the mass murderers sought to harm: the victims, the economy and our quality of life.
Donate money. It's the fastest and most flexible help one can send. Contact the Red Cross or the City of New York to find out where money is most needed, and give what you can. The disaster-management professionals will appreciate it more than random packages of food, clothing or equipment.
Prevent a recession. The economy will bounce back. We all know it. Show confidence in that fact by investing and not running. Your confidence will pay off handsomely in 6-12 months. Don't be irresponsible and spend or invest money you can't afford, but don't get frightened and hide your money under the bed either. Invest what you can, don't cancel travel plans, and go shopping for a few of those items you were holding off on.
Don't repress individual freedoms. Greater restrictions on individual movements or communications will do exactly nothing to prevent a group of people who are willing to die from taking over an aircraft. Neither will they help us catch the perpetrators. Tightening personal freedoms gives the attackers a big victory. They will have moved our society backwards, closer to the police states of the 20th century.
Now we come to the question of prevention. How do we prevent such atrocities in the future? Here, the answer lies in human behavior. Humans are ingenious. Very, very ingenious. We will never be able to prevent a group from doing such things if they want to. But we can make it so that few groups are interested in mass murder as a tactic.
Right away, we have to bring those responsible to justice. That does two things: it prevents these maniacs from murdering more people, and it makes such crimes less attractive to other potential perpetrators.
Bringing them to justice requires a great deal of investigative work, as we build an ironclad case before the world. If our case is strong enough, as it can be if we bring to bear all the legal, investigative and prosecutorial expertise we have in this nation, then none will be able to support the murderers. Even the Taliban, the demon du jour, has said they will turn over their guest to an Islamic court if the evidence is persuasive.
The entire world -- not just our friends -- has expressed abhorrence at the slaughters of 9/11. If these acts are clearly linked to individuals, those individuals will have literally nowhere to hide. Further, few people will support a criminal organization of their own free will. Criminalizing those responsible erodes the support systems for groups which conduct terror attacks.
We must not go to war. Before you denounce me as unpatriotic or soft, hear me out. Military action will be tactically, morally, behaviorally, and fiscally ineffective or counterproductive.
War is ineffective. Guerilla tactics have never been defeated by a military response. The American revolutionary war, all five of the past wars in Afghanistan, the war in Vietnam, the war inside Israel today...the list is endless. One can only end a guerilla war by bringing the guerillas to the negotiating table and addressing the issues which drive their cause.
War is immoral. If we kill innocents -- which military action will do -- we are not morally superior to these murderers. If America is the land of justice, how can we avenge the actions of the guilty by slaughtering the innocent? The citizens of Kabul, now fleeing for their lives, are no more a part of the Trade Center murders than New Yorkers have been a part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In fact, many of them do not support the current Afghan regime.
War justifies these crimes. Finally, going to war inherently recognizes the hijackings and mass murders as acts of war, which are on a much higher moral plane than crime. When Germany killed millions of Russian soldiers during World War II, that was war. The Holocaust was crime. The individuals behind the events of 9/11 are criminals, not soldiers.
War helps the murderers. No matter where a military action takes place, it acts as a recruitment drive for these butchers. Need an example? Notice how the entire nation of America is roused to action when our New York and Washington, D.C. citizens suffered. This is a human response, not a uniquely American one. We will create many new terrorist cells if we attack and kill innocents abroad.
War is not cost-effective. Military action costs a tremendous amount of money. And as noted above, it can't win this kind of conflict. Already our Social Security system is at risk: the "lock box" so frequently discussed can be opened with either of two keys: national emergency or war. Why should we worsen the damage they have done? Are we going to let these murdering bastards kill our future too?
The way to remove this murderous cause, root and branch, is to use the same methods we have employed here in America to keep factional differences from becoming blood feuds. Support the rule of law, due process, and basic freedoms (speech, press and religion) abroad. Vigorously. Make our financial and political backing contingent on the institution and protection of these essentials.
These murders were the acts of a group which felt silenced and oppressed. As long as people around the world are powerless and speechless, they will become desperate -- some murderously so. Let them speak, bring them to the table, and you remove the cause of their desperation. Oppress and demonize them, and you heighten that desperation.
Freedom of speech is a powerful weapon against the desperate, for many reasons. Control of information is necessary to indoctrinate fanatics, and the freer the flow of information, the harder this indoctrination becomes. Negotiation is stifled when speech is stifled, and conflict resolution is impossible without negotiation. Repression exacerbates conflict, leading to a cycle of death and injustice.
It has been said that this was an attack on freedom. Balderdash. Those evil maniacs were acting against a people whom they saw as oppressors. Tuesday's murders were an attack on government policy.
We need to change what America stands for. America must no longer stand for corporate profits, for blind loyalty to oppressive governments, for short-sightedness, for having the biggest guns, for "my way or the highway." America must stand for freedom, for tolerance, for generosity and for justice. Not American-style nationalism, but American-style freedoms for all. Not imposition of American goals, but liberty to pursue individual goals.
Think about it. Some human beings burn American flags in the streets of Amman, while others erect Lady Liberty and rally around her in Tiananmen Square. The first group resents our government. The second reveres our way of life. Which do you stand for?
Kyle Brink
1) Not the US's fault that the UK economy wasn't strong enough and ended up going bankrupt, but at least the US was nice enough to forgive all your debt. I'm not saying what the UK did wasn't great and all, but we all realize that the UK saw the writing on the wall- they were going to be next. It was in their own best interest to help Poland. Better to fight the war on Polish soil than on their own. And how many more millions of people would of died in those years while the UK got the resources to invade Europe?
2) As for Iraqi civilans, again not our fault that the Iraqi military intercepts our humanitarian aid. The US has been very clear and supportive of the UN resolution requiring Sadddam to let inspectors visit suspected bio/chem factories. Damn straight we (and the rest of the world) should be agressive and try to limit Saddam's access to weapons of mass distruction. If Saddam priortized his own people's well-being above his ability to kill others the Iraqi people wouldn't be in this mess.
3) As for Cuba... well shit, maybe if they hadn't let the Russians install nukes in our backyard we wouldn't of gotten so damn pissed. Perhaps it's not sensible or reasonable, but it's hard to blame us for our response. Not like Castro is worthy of help (notice his comments regarding the WTC). The reality is that the US has always supported democracies in the world and given the finger to communisim.
4) Did we help Iraq against Iran? Yep. Does the US have a history of helping people who then hurt us? Yep. Does this make a strong argument that our leaders in the past have been pretty damn stupid at times? Yep. Did we tell Saddam, "Go ahead, invade Kuwait, see if we care." Nope.
As for your final argument that the US gives people reason to attack a bunch of stock brokers and bankers, I find that highly offensive. Face it, these people were by and large innocent. Regardless of what the US has done in the past, two wrongs still don't make a right.