"So you are just rambling about something you admit you don't have knowledge about. Fine."
No, my background is behavioral psychology, not language acquisition. This is the kind of logic that got you in trouble in the first place, and made you think you were right when in reality you're just too stupid to know how wrong you are.
"No, I'm not. I'm assigning CAPABILITIES that are present in humans to a non-human."
Which is exactly the definition of anthropomorphism. I'm glad you admit it.
"Please, oh please, I want to learn, badly. Tell me more about my mistakes..."
Speaking, breathing, I pray I'm wrong, but breeding. Sharing your opinion, and commenting on a subject you're clearly not qualified for.
You're wrong, and you're (now) deliberately misrepresenting data to support a point that has been discredited for years.
You want to learn? STOP BEING A FUCKING TWAT AND ASSUMING THE ARTICLE YOU READ IN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC IS TRUE.
It just makes you look even more like an ignorant slut.
"All that has to be done is to declare a perpetual state of war so you don't have to declassify anything anymore, since it would hurt national security if the enemy knew some plot of a while ago"
Then you say this
"Yeah, but the war that papers refer to is dead and over. Colder than it ever was."
These two statements cannot be reconciled. If you can declare a perpetual state of war (a state which we are in now, as GP said) and never have to declassify anything anymore then why does it matter how old something is or that it's over? Your second point directly contradicts your first.
"Sometimes, the ends justify the means, and the means ain't too pretty. But the thing is, most of these abuses are just that- they're abuses, not places where tough choices had to be made to save lives."
This is an excellent point, and one not enough people focus on. I expect abuses from any government agency (and if you don't you're an imbecile, thousands of years of history prove me right) but it is the organizations that are tasked with doing the distasteful, dirty business of statehood whose abuses infuriate me the most.
When given the kind of power and access the CIA and other such agencies have, going above and beyond to actually abuse the power you're given is quite a feat. An "abuse" from the CIA means they did something very, very wrong. It is exactly these agencies, with near limitless power to act, that need to be slapped the hardest when they step out of line.
"But who's to say that what _we_ do that makes us think we're special isn't conditioning either?"
Why do you think the genesis of the behavior matters? It is the ability to engage in the behavior at all that is the discriminator. Let's say you're right, and that all human behavior is the result of conditioning (it doesn't, but let's pretend). So what? No amount of conditioning can make a non-human a human.
"so then you might elucidate us as to what the reasons are that humans use language, and which of those reasons are so human-spcific that they cannot be found in animals?"
No actually I won't. It's not my field.
"koko has the vocabulary of a roughly five-year-old and is using it to the same extent"
Inaccurate.
"she understands spoken language and can even read a few written words."
Inaccurate.
"she names things by herself by combining words intelligently"
No, she most certainly does not. This is the most inaccurate statement so far.
"she never saw another kid reading a book to itself"
She HAS, however, seen adults do it.
"she might not be smart enough to follow this discussion or understand the subtle insults (thank you for not using the same rude language you are using in other recent posts) you are directing against me but neither are 99% of the american population."
This makes no sense.
"i'm not anthropomorphizing,"
That is a patent falsehood. You are assigning human traits to a non-human. Regardless of whether it is appropriate or not, it is the VERY DEFINITION of anthropomorphism. How can we discuss this when your base claim is false, and you refuse to admit your irrefutable anthropomorphism of koko.
You illustrate my point nicely. Rather than examine my criticisms, you respond by reasserting that you are not doing something that you are, in fact, doing the textbook definition of. You are so attached to your pre conceived notions that you flatly reuse to even admit you're doing something that is clear in black and white.
THIS and people like YOU are why I generally avoid these topics. It is simply futile to argue with a zealot who denies their actions in the face of incontrovertible evidence. Like you have done in this post.
We can continue this if you choose, but you'll have to examine your opinions more carefully. I have no desire to waste my time trying to educate any more zealots.
Despite the fact that you believe what you're saying, that doesn't matter.
The process of determining "motivation" in an animal is extremely complex. It usually involves long stretches of observation in specific settings, followed by more long hours of testing to elicit responses to stimuli. It is the kind of process, which when undertaken by a professional who is talented, observant, and qualified, can give great insight.
It IS NOT ever done by an amateur with any accuracy, unless that amateur has very specific training and instructions. You do not.
Asking you to accurately describe why your dog does what she does is similar to asking me about particle physics. It is not my bailiwick, and any answers I have will be of suspect nature.
When I said what I said before, I think you missed my point. You, unless you have some education that you're not sharing, CAN NOT have the toolset to accurately assess your dogs behavior. You can't. It is not possible. The main, and simplest, reason is because of exactly what you have already displayed, a tendency to assign human motivation to a non-human. This should NEVER be done without extreme caution. Simply watching what your dog does and assuming is not good enough.
I know, for a fact, 100% certainty, that given a sufficient amount of time, I could give you a reason for every single one of your dog's behaviors. And none of your assumptions would be correct.
I suggest you look into types of conditioning. You will gain a great insight into why everyone (humans, animals, and everything else) behaves the way they do.
Sadly though, your illusions about your dog having "conversations" will be shattered.
"and that koko has been reading picture books to herself at bedtime just like a school kid would do, it's only imitation."
It is. I'm glad we agree.
"that she has the wish to express herself via paintings and drawings, that's no sign for intelligence."
You're right, it's not a sign of intelligence, it's a sign of YOU anthropomorphizing an animal. SO this point speaks dircetly to your failings.
"and that she invents new words is a sign for... what?"
Nothing.
"you, as many others, suffer from delusions of grandeur regarding human capabilities..."
And YOU as SOOOO many others, suffer from delusions that animals who engage in behavior similar to humans do so for REASONS similar to humans. Again, this says far more about your inability to reason than it does about koko.
None of which means koko doesn't use language. It only means that the reasons YOU think are definitive are meaningless and trivial, and that you don't have the mental processes necessary to realize it.
"It will be interesting to see whether AT&T will unlock the phone on request, as they do for other GSM phones (for international travel and prepaid SIMs), and if that is the case, how well other carriers' networks work with iPhone (obviously sans things like Visual Voicemail)."
This runs contrary to everything I've read, heard, and personally experienced with unlocking a phone from AT&T (Cingular). Has their policy changed recently? All evidence I have indicates you must wait 90 days before they will unlock a phone.
"It's clear that you're just trolling, but really - is that the only way you could find to tear apart my post?"
No, of course not. Just the most glaring and obvious. Is this the only way you could think of to draw attention away from your lies?
"Seems silly to try to redirect the discussion by accusing me of lying to you when all I did was clearly point out where my originally quoted numbers came from."
Not to me. You lied, why pretend that anything else in your post matters after that?
"Could you at least make a token effort to respond to the points I made?"
No, you're a liar. You'll just lie when you're wrong like you did before.
"You may be a troll, but you're not a very good one."
SOP for people like you, get caught lying, get caught being wrong, accuse the other guy of being a troll because you are a liar and were wrong so your only hope is to draw attention away from your lies.
Stop lying and I might pay attention to you. But probably not.
"My bird wants to be a dog. He's jealous of our dog because the dog interacts with us more."
So, the bird doesn't want to be a dog, but simply wants what the dog has. Not the same thing.
"She tries to talk. It's not growling or attention-grabbing barking."
I hate to be the one to ruin your well crafted anthropomorphic fantasy, but that's exactly what it is and you know it. She did something, you reinforced it, behavior continued. It's not nearly as weird as you seem to think.
This is why I rarely get involved in these types of discussions. As a professional in the field, analysis like yours is all too common, and is wrong every time. It's nice to pretend that your dog "thinks it's people" but that's all it is, you pretending.
I do love the assertion you made that it's not attention seeking, especially since there's no way in hell you could know that, and more importantly, because it's clearly not true.
"Stupid fucking bitch is a parody of their own stupid comment about bravery behind a keyboard, without even a userID's worth of courage."
Maybe, but I wasn't, yet your bitch ass ran like you were French.
"OK, coward, come to NYC and I'll explain it to you in person. When will you arrive?"
Give me your address. I'll be happy to show and smack the fuck out of your sorry cowardly ass.
And why is it that losers like you always posture and say "come to where I live". That cunt drinkypoo does the same pathetic shit. How come you bitches never ask for someone else's address so you can go to them?
Oh right, cause you're a fucking twat. You PRETEND you want a confrontation, but you know most people won't travel across country to slap you in the mouth. So you get to pretend you're hard while not risking a fucking thing. What a bitch move.
Too bad for your punk ass I'm in Nyack. Tell me where I can go and when to be there so I can shut you the fuck up.
"His over all lack of any real information about the world is apparent from his other posts and his grammar just helps make a point that you cannot take him seriously."
I used exactly the same criteria to dismiss you. I'm glad we agree you're both not worthy of listening to.
By the way, douchebags like you justify flaming someone for spelling while they also misspell. Had you not been a douchebag, you'd have simply had a good chuckle at your bad luck.
Don't bother replying, as I said, I used your own criteria to come to the correct conclusion to ignore your opinion.
"Standing in front of tanks in the Mideast is what's keeping us part of their civil war."
It sure is. Now, if you'll kindly tell me what areas exist in which WE are a part of "their civil war" we can get to the part where you got caught in a moronic argument then gave us this gem.
"The Mideast is a lot bigger than Iraq, stupid shit."
Then of course, because I owned you so easily, you gave us this
"That's your last free clue. Goodbye."
I didn't need a single clue. I knew you were a lying troll who like a coward attempts to end discussion after being shown to be an ignoramus.
"And you wait until now to object? Oh come on now."
YOU tried to use the rulebook to argue from authority. You honestly think I'm going to allow that without taking advantage of your ignorance? NO fucking way.
"If you're not going to discuss, why bother replying? Are you working off stress or something?"
Because you're wrong, and hate it, but can't let it go. So I'll keep reminding you until you get it.
Listen, you said something wrong, I clarified, and NOW instead of admitting it, you're changing the subject. I'm not going to lead you around by the nose if the best you can do is make blanket statements from ignorance, ASSUMING you know WTF you're talking about and arguing with me the whole way, only NOW realizing that your ignorant assumptions crippled your argument.
In the future, should you choose to share your opinion again (bad idea) DO NOT be so fucking arrogant as to think a google search is a substitute for real knowledge. It fucked you quite badly this time.
"nope he didn't "fucked up" as your bad english puts it."
Hmm, I fucked up, we fucked up, she fucked up, they fucked up, it fucked up, sorry little guy, even though you posted AC, I know it's you. And there's nothing wrong with the english, are you really that stupid?
"that is NOT free tivo service."
FIne, it's a TiVo service for which you pay nothing. OH WAIT THAT MEANS FUCKING FREE! Are you really that fucking stupid?
"Try again fuckup."
At least you were nice enough to sign you post AC. Thanks!
"If you'll check your link again, you'll note that it's an informational listing only. There's no item for sale there."
There was when I posted it. The rest of your post is more useless garbage.
"Per the above math, by the time you factor in everything, you'll have a very nice MythTV box for less than running a Tivo box for 2 years, no matter how you slice and dice it."
Which, as usual, discounts the labor involved in setting it up and maintaining it.
Slashdot Mirror
"Violence against your wife is inappropriate and illegal (unless of course it's to protect yourself from her)"
Bondage. S&M. You are wrong.
As to the rest of your moronic reply, YOU JUDGE A CASE ON THE FACTS, not on your imbecilic preconceived notions.
Do you have a problem with adhering to the Constitution?
"So you are just rambling about something you admit you don't have knowledge about. Fine."
No, my background is behavioral psychology, not language acquisition. This is the kind of logic that got you in trouble in the first place, and made you think you were right when in reality you're just too stupid to know how wrong you are.
"No, I'm not. I'm assigning CAPABILITIES that are present in humans to a non-human."
Which is exactly the definition of anthropomorphism. I'm glad you admit it.
"Please, oh please, I want to learn, badly. Tell me more about my mistakes..."
Speaking, breathing, I pray I'm wrong, but breeding. Sharing your opinion, and commenting on a subject you're clearly not qualified for.
You're wrong, and you're (now) deliberately misrepresenting data to support a point that has been discredited for years.
You want to learn? STOP BEING A FUCKING TWAT AND ASSUMING THE ARTICLE YOU READ IN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC IS TRUE.
It just makes you look even more like an ignorant slut.
You say this
"All that has to be done is to declare a perpetual state of war so you don't have to declassify anything anymore, since it would hurt national security if the enemy knew some plot of a while ago"
Then you say this
"Yeah, but the war that papers refer to is dead and over. Colder than it ever was."
These two statements cannot be reconciled. If you can declare a perpetual state of war (a state which we are in now, as GP said) and never have to declassify anything anymore then why does it matter how old something is or that it's over? Your second point directly contradicts your first.
"Sometimes, the ends justify the means, and the means ain't too pretty. But the thing is, most of these abuses are just that- they're abuses, not places where tough choices had to be made to save lives."
This is an excellent point, and one not enough people focus on. I expect abuses from any government agency (and if you don't you're an imbecile, thousands of years of history prove me right) but it is the organizations that are tasked with doing the distasteful, dirty business of statehood whose abuses infuriate me the most.
When given the kind of power and access the CIA and other such agencies have, going above and beyond to actually abuse the power you're given is quite a feat. An "abuse" from the CIA means they did something very, very wrong. It is exactly these agencies, with near limitless power to act, that need to be slapped the hardest when they step out of line.
"But who's to say that what _we_ do that makes us think we're special isn't conditioning either?"
Why do you think the genesis of the behavior matters? It is the ability to engage in the behavior at all that is the discriminator. Let's say you're right, and that all human behavior is the result of conditioning (it doesn't, but let's pretend). So what? No amount of conditioning can make a non-human a human.
"so then you might elucidate us as to what the reasons are that humans use language, and which of those reasons are so human-spcific that they cannot be found in animals?"
No actually I won't. It's not my field.
"koko has the vocabulary of a roughly five-year-old and is using it to the same extent"
Inaccurate.
"she understands spoken language and can even read a few written words."
Inaccurate.
"she names things by herself by combining words intelligently"
No, she most certainly does not. This is the most inaccurate statement so far.
"she never saw another kid reading a book to itself"
She HAS, however, seen adults do it.
"she might not be smart enough to follow this discussion or understand the subtle insults (thank you for not using the same rude language you are using in other recent posts) you are directing against me but neither are 99% of the american population."
This makes no sense.
"i'm not anthropomorphizing,"
That is a patent falsehood. You are assigning human traits to a non-human. Regardless of whether it is appropriate or not, it is the VERY DEFINITION of anthropomorphism. How can we discuss this when your base claim is false, and you refuse to admit your irrefutable anthropomorphism of koko.
You illustrate my point nicely. Rather than examine my criticisms, you respond by reasserting that you are not doing something that you are, in fact, doing the textbook definition of. You are so attached to your pre conceived notions that you flatly reuse to even admit you're doing something that is clear in black and white.
THIS and people like YOU are why I generally avoid these topics. It is simply futile to argue with a zealot who denies their actions in the face of incontrovertible evidence. Like you have done in this post.
We can continue this if you choose, but you'll have to examine your opinions more carefully. I have no desire to waste my time trying to educate any more zealots.
If you ever serve jury duty. That way they can dismiss you and choose jurors who can do the job correctly.
Despite the fact that you believe what you're saying, that doesn't matter.
The process of determining "motivation" in an animal is extremely complex. It usually involves long stretches of observation in specific settings, followed by more long hours of testing to elicit responses to stimuli. It is the kind of process, which when undertaken by a professional who is talented, observant, and qualified, can give great insight.
It IS NOT ever done by an amateur with any accuracy, unless that amateur has very specific training and instructions. You do not.
Asking you to accurately describe why your dog does what she does is similar to asking me about particle physics. It is not my bailiwick, and any answers I have will be of suspect nature.
When I said what I said before, I think you missed my point. You, unless you have some education that you're not sharing, CAN NOT have the toolset to accurately assess your dogs behavior. You can't. It is not possible. The main, and simplest, reason is because of exactly what you have already displayed, a tendency to assign human motivation to a non-human. This should NEVER be done without extreme caution. Simply watching what your dog does and assuming is not good enough.
I know, for a fact, 100% certainty, that given a sufficient amount of time, I could give you a reason for every single one of your dog's behaviors. And none of your assumptions would be correct.
I suggest you look into types of conditioning. You will gain a great insight into why everyone (humans, animals, and everything else) behaves the way they do.
Sadly though, your illusions about your dog having "conversations" will be shattered.
"'Not buying' is passive; you have to do something that actively makes them stop."
I do, I buy from other people. That was the part of my post that read
"and if you wanted to choose not to buy the OS, there's a company called Apple...
It's ok, it was near the end, you probably missed it.
"and that koko has been reading picture books to herself at bedtime just like a school kid would do, it's only imitation."
It is. I'm glad we agree.
"that she has the wish to express herself via paintings and drawings, that's no sign for intelligence."
You're right, it's not a sign of intelligence, it's a sign of YOU anthropomorphizing an animal. SO this point speaks dircetly to your failings.
"and that she invents new words is a sign for... what?"
Nothing.
"you, as many others, suffer from delusions of grandeur regarding human capabilities..."
And YOU as SOOOO many others, suffer from delusions that animals who engage in behavior similar to humans do so for REASONS similar to humans. Again, this says far more about your inability to reason than it does about koko.
None of which means koko doesn't use language. It only means that the reasons YOU think are definitive are meaningless and trivial, and that you don't have the mental processes necessary to realize it.
"you can't choose NOT to buy it"
Why can't you choose not to buy the game?
Your point is stupid. (and if you wanted to choose not to buy the OS, there's a company called Apple...)
"It will be interesting to see whether AT&T will unlock the phone on request, as they do for other GSM phones (for international travel and prepaid SIMs), and if that is the case, how well other carriers' networks work with iPhone (obviously sans things like Visual Voicemail)."
This runs contrary to everything I've read, heard, and personally experienced with unlocking a phone from AT&T (Cingular). Has their policy changed recently? All evidence I have indicates you must wait 90 days before they will unlock a phone.
"It's clear that you're just trolling, but really - is that the only way you could find to tear apart my post?"
No, of course not. Just the most glaring and obvious. Is this the only way you could think of to draw attention away from your lies?
"Seems silly to try to redirect the discussion by accusing me of lying to you when all I did was clearly point out where my originally quoted numbers came from."
Not to me. You lied, why pretend that anything else in your post matters after that?
"Could you at least make a token effort to respond to the points I made?"
No, you're a liar. You'll just lie when you're wrong like you did before.
"You may be a troll, but you're not a very good one."
SOP for people like you, get caught lying, get caught being wrong, accuse the other guy of being a troll because you are a liar and were wrong so your only hope is to draw attention away from your lies.
Stop lying and I might pay attention to you. But probably not.
"My bird wants to be a dog. He's jealous of our dog because the dog interacts with us more."
So, the bird doesn't want to be a dog, but simply wants what the dog has. Not the same thing.
"She tries to talk. It's not growling or attention-grabbing barking."
I hate to be the one to ruin your well crafted anthropomorphic fantasy, but that's exactly what it is and you know it. She did something, you reinforced it, behavior continued. It's not nearly as weird as you seem to think.
This is why I rarely get involved in these types of discussions. As a professional in the field, analysis like yours is all too common, and is wrong every time. It's nice to pretend that your dog "thinks it's people" but that's all it is, you pretending.
I do love the assertion you made that it's not attention seeking, especially since there's no way in hell you could know that, and more importantly, because it's clearly not true.
"Stupid fucking bitch is a parody of their own stupid comment about bravery behind a keyboard, without even a userID's worth of courage."
Maybe, but I wasn't, yet your bitch ass ran like you were French.
"OK, coward, come to NYC and I'll explain it to you in person. When will you arrive?"
Give me your address. I'll be happy to show and smack the fuck out of your sorry cowardly ass.
And why is it that losers like you always posture and say "come to where I live". That cunt drinkypoo does the same pathetic shit. How come you bitches never ask for someone else's address so you can go to them?
Oh right, cause you're a fucking twat. You PRETEND you want a confrontation, but you know most people won't travel across country to slap you in the mouth. So you get to pretend you're hard while not risking a fucking thing. What a bitch move.
Too bad for your punk ass I'm in Nyack. Tell me where I can go and when to be there so I can shut you the fuck up.
You just used it.
How does it feel to get owned like that bitch Ruby did?
By the way, you're an AC, are you really stupid enough to think anyone gives a fuck what a loser who can't even log in thinks?
Now take your own advice and ban yourself (and I know it's you Ruby, you stupid cunt, posting AC because you said something stupid again)
"His over all lack of any real information about the world is apparent from his other posts and his grammar just helps make a point that you cannot take him seriously."
I used exactly the same criteria to dismiss you. I'm glad we agree you're both not worthy of listening to.
By the way, douchebags like you justify flaming someone for spelling while they also misspell. Had you not been a douchebag, you'd have simply had a good chuckle at your bad luck.
Don't bother replying, as I said, I used your own criteria to come to the correct conclusion to ignore your opinion.
"Standing in front of tanks in the Mideast is what's keeping us part of their civil war."
It sure is. Now, if you'll kindly tell me what areas exist in which WE are a part of "their civil war" we can get to the part where you got caught in a moronic argument then gave us this gem.
"The Mideast is a lot bigger than Iraq, stupid shit."
Then of course, because I owned you so easily, you gave us this
"That's your last free clue. Goodbye."
I didn't need a single clue. I knew you were a lying troll who like a coward attempts to end discussion after being shown to be an ignoramus.
And you just proved me right. Again.
"And you wait until now to object? Oh come on now."
YOU tried to use the rulebook to argue from authority. You honestly think I'm going to allow that without taking advantage of your ignorance? NO fucking way.
"If you're not going to discuss, why bother replying? Are you working off stress or something?"
Because you're wrong, and hate it, but can't let it go. So I'll keep reminding you until you get it.
Listen, you said something wrong, I clarified, and NOW instead of admitting it, you're changing the subject. I'm not going to lead you around by the nose if the best you can do is make blanket statements from ignorance, ASSUMING you know WTF you're talking about and arguing with me the whole way, only NOW realizing that your ignorant assumptions crippled your argument.
In the future, should you choose to share your opinion again (bad idea) DO NOT be so fucking arrogant as to think a google search is a substitute for real knowledge. It fucked you quite badly this time.
"nope he didn't "fucked up" as your bad english puts it."
Hmm, I fucked up, we fucked up, she fucked up, they fucked up, it fucked up, sorry little guy, even though you posted AC, I know it's you. And there's nothing wrong with the english, are you really that stupid?
"that is NOT free tivo service."
FIne, it's a TiVo service for which you pay nothing. OH WAIT THAT MEANS FUCKING FREE! Are you really that fucking stupid?
"Try again fuckup."
At least you were nice enough to sign you post AC. Thanks!
"If you'll check your link again, you'll note that it's an informational listing only. There's no item for sale there."
There was when I posted it. The rest of your post is more useless garbage.
"Per the above math, by the time you factor in everything, you'll have a very nice MythTV box for less than running a Tivo box for 2 years, no matter how you slice and dice it."
Which, as usual, discounts the labor involved in setting it up and maintaining it.
You're an imbecile.
"Here's your pie."
Here's my finger. Stop lying.
"I already did show you which Tivo I was referring to."
No, you're a liar.
"Or at least..."
OH SO the truth comes out. You did, then didn't. Like I said, a liar.
You said
"What I will do is everything I can short of kill to stop the killing you're wallowing in."
Which really means "I'll type furiously, while doing not a fucking thing of substance."
Then you said
"Standing in front of tanks in the Mideast is what's keeping us part of their civil war."
Um, what? WE have the tanks twat. Why would WE stand in front of our own tanks and by your assertion, be extending our part in "their civil war"?
You're a moron.
"I look forward to you getting a clue"
Oh the irony.
OOOH Good one! Because he has typos, you can safely dismiss his point.
"Clearly a unbiased"
So, now I get to do the same to you.
"torture, illegal wiretapping and spying on the citizenry, and election fraud???"
LBJ. What do I win?