I can empathize with some of what you're saying. Developers interviewing developers is generally a BAD idea as egos quickly get engaged. If there is an architect/PM/Manager present, things generally stay civil. Not sure if this was the case described in the previous post.
Also not sure why the interviewers had it in for this guy since it didn't sound like his email was aimed at them specifically. I mean did they have previous personal history with this guy that would justify screwing him over in the interview? Sounds to me like they were pissed because he got out of a shit job before they did and made the mistake of gloating about it.
At the end of the day interviewers probably did this guy a favor.
1. Many H1Bs are taken advantage of by their hiring companies who have no interest in educating the candidate on current market rates. So they come over on a salary of 50k (or less), which sounds good compared to where they are now. However, they are soon disgusted when they discover the non-H1B in the cube next to them with similar experience is getting paid maybe twice as much.
2. H1B is an expensive, unweildly visa. Expensive to hire and expensive to transfer. For this reason, most companies will not work with H1Bs directly. What this means is that once you're here on H1B, it is very difficult to jump to another company if you want to get out of your submarket rate range and you're stuck with your current employer who is the only one really making any money. This issue is compounded once the green card process begins, because jumping ship would be having to start ALL over again unless you've already got EAD.
Also, H1Bs are NOT always cheaper for the hiring company. An H1B contractor costs just as much as any other to the company hiring them from the same agent. Rates are generally determined by skillset and experience (not on visa status). But the H1B will be getting paid less because they are salaried and their employer is pocketing a large percentage of their rate. H1B contractors only getting 40-50% of their rate is very common in my experience, while any other contractor would be getting 75-80%.
I don't think it was the governments intention to depress the wages of H1Bs, but that's just the way it worked out. There are wage minimums (around 40k I think), but that's it.
> So you've decided to replace it with your own brand of tyrrany?
Um yeah, it's called DEMOCRACY...
> They're not asking you to bow to anything, you divisive bigot. All they're demanding is the right to get up off their own knees and stand beside you as equals.
Right, marriage determines equality. Gotcha.
> What label would you use for anyone who would deny their fellow man such a right? How can you even imply that such a label is somehow unwarranted, or unearned?
The People of California? Sorry but different states think differently and I'm sorry if that offends you. But freaking out and yelling Biggot also probably doesn't help.
> (And yes, I can say with resolute and immediate authority that California is, in fact, chock full of assholes, of every brand, stripe, and political leaning)
I see nothing inappropriate about a Church encouraging their members to be active in a current political issue and last time I checked people are free to donate to whatever cause they like.
However, there have been some allegations of the church contacting non-members which must be reported to the state and wasn't.
Don't be too hard on the kid, he's just a teenager after all. What guy that age doesn't have some angst to vent?
Nobody likes to get their ass kicked in a game - take some time to play it by yourself then have a re-match with him and kick his butt(in a nice way). You'll have more fun and he'll respect you for beating him on his own turf.
But there are games you're never going to win at, so if he wants to play with you, then make sure to play some games where you are the expert. This will ensure no one is always winning (or losing) and give you the feeling of fairness you're looking for.
A lot of visas require degrees/diplomas + experience. ie TN/H1. I'm a Canadian working in the US on an TN, for which a university degree is a requirement.
If you want to keep your options open, I would seriously recommend pursuing a degree.
A CS degree, despite what some have said, isn't just a lot of hoop jumping. You will learn many fundamentals of computers from hardware to databases to software engineering. Actually, the hoops are there no matter what path you take, degree or self taught. In the course of a 4 year degree you will definitely take a lot stuff that seems meaningless but some of it will be interesting even if it is not in your field. Will you have to kiss the occasional prof's butt? Sure. But this is reality and even more so in the corporate world. Almost every colleague I knew that got a promotion got it because his/her manager loved them - definitely not on technical merit alone. Want to take the self taught path? Better be prepared to work your ass off. From the posts here most of the guys who made it this way worked at least the first few years in crap jobs. Can you really see yourself working in a call center?
But to each their own. If you're an entrepreneurial type with *a lot* of motivation I'm sure you'll be successful eventually either way.
Since these were probably just CSRs, they probably would have been accessing customer records via a published internal interface which of course will log and audit all transactions. Also, these sorts of systems are not stupid and will categorize VIPs differently from your average Joe thus giving their records added scrutiny during any audit which explains how quickly the perps were caught.
SQL queries at the DB level using a service account would have allowed them to snoop autonomously. The service account would protect them to a certain degree since these are generic credentials that any number of people (admins) might have access to. Also, raw SQL is normally not logged on a production system, although it can be. But it doesn't really sound like these guys had this level of access.
Debt is an inevitability, to one degree or another, for those who don't have the cash (or their parents don't) to drop on their education and IMHO most of the time makes sense. I worked summers and did an internship, but even with all that still ended up around $40k in debt. The government forgave 10k and I was left with the rest. But I would much rather rack up some debt and be able to really focus on studying rather than having than burdening myself with the additional responsibility of a full/part time job.
Also, working your way through school to avoid debt, as some here have proposed, doesn't always make sense if it will significantly defer your graduation. The $12/hr you're making now cannot compare with the $25/hr after you graduate. Plus how stressful would it be to be working full time with a full course load? Of course if for some reason you actually find yourself with spare time/energy then by all means get a job - but this certainly wasn't my situation.
After you graduate, put in a few solid years with a good company then start jumping. If you have a CS degree then 6 figures is well within your reach and if you're focusing on paying off debt, it shouldn't take you more than a couple years.
Of course there are ways to greatly reduce debt load:
- COMMUNITY COLLEGE: stay there as long as possible. The teacher to student ratios and hence the quality of instruction is much better. 1/2 price tuition. Do your experimenting where it's cheap.
- Live with your parents. Seriously. If your sanity/social life can handle it, then do it. Rent is money down the drain. This probably implies that you're going to a local university.
- Live humbly. Do you really need that car?
- get a scholarship
Both are valid motivations, but might take you in very different directions.
Couple years after I had just graduated money was really tight. I had a rock solid perm job but at just a couple years out of university, I was being paid crap. So I bought a commercial cleaning business to do on the side. Nothing glamorous, but I wanted to start small since it was my first go at this sort of thing.
It was a BLAST! Doubled my income almost overnight. It was like I had this double life or something. But all good things must end and after a couple years I was totally burned out. Since I had really just been in it for the cash, I thought that there had to be a less stressful way - so I decided to sell out and just focus on my one career (Java) for a while.
Just one year later I was making what I had been before with just one job thanks to consulting. There's a lot of money to be made in just computers if you're willing to go and chase it.
If your motivation is a need for some variety, then you could pick all sorts of things, really depending on your own interests. Some things my geek colleagues have done:
- freelance photographer (portraits/real estate)
- home renovation/house flipping
- trading: stocks/forex
- slumlord
Something I'd really like to do is open a bead and breakfast, but I can't do what while I'm consulting.
On what you want to do in your career. I mean seriously, have you thought about it? Game programmer? DBA? Internet/eCommerce? Device driver developer? Management?
What you're shooting for will dramatically influence what technologies you will be using, hence the background you will need to do the job. Make a list of the top 3 IT market segments you would like to end up in and then find out what is needed to work there. A simple way to do this is go to Dice, and search on your target area. A detailed job description will tell you in a nutshell what your skill set needs to look like. I'd say that a good working knowledge of C/C++/ASM is important for any Java developer, but a much deeper knowledge will be required in certain market segments such as gaming.
| My education has not been particularly difficult or time consuming to get
| good grades, so I have spent my free time dabbling in topics and languages
| that interest me (ie Multiple GUI Toolkits, Python, Linux).
If you're working under a full course load and not finding it 'particularly difficult', then I'd say you're a very bright individual (good for you). However, this also means you're not getting your money's worth from your university (not so good for you). I'm sure there are other worthy subjects you can include in your studies that will challenge you appropriately. Try taking something that you normally wouldn't. Maybe a second language. I studdied some art history my last year of CS and had a blast. Your last year of CS is probably the most important because you have the opportunity to do some project based courses and test the theories you've learned.
Don't underestimate real world experience. A coop/Internship (potentially with more than one employer) can help you get your bearings.
Also, keep your options open. Don't assume that you will be in IT forerver. Keep your GPA up - this will keep the door open for a Masters or PhD or other professional school (ie Law, Medicine).
Slashdot Mirror
I can empathize with some of what you're saying. Developers interviewing developers is generally a BAD idea as egos quickly get engaged. If there is an architect/PM/Manager present, things generally stay civil. Not sure if this was the case described in the previous post.
Also not sure why the interviewers had it in for this guy since it didn't sound like his email was aimed at them specifically. I mean did they have previous personal history with this guy that would justify screwing him over in the interview? Sounds to me like they were pissed because he got out of a shit job before they did and made the mistake of gloating about it.
At the end of the day interviewers probably did this guy a favor.
1. Many H1Bs are taken advantage of by their hiring companies who have no interest in educating the candidate on current market rates. So they come over on a salary of 50k (or less), which sounds good compared to where they are now. However, they are soon disgusted when they discover the non-H1B in the cube next to them with similar experience is getting paid maybe twice as much.
2. H1B is an expensive, unweildly visa. Expensive to hire and expensive to transfer. For this reason, most companies will not work with H1Bs directly. What this means is that once you're here on H1B, it is very difficult to jump to another company if you want to get out of your submarket rate range and you're stuck with your current employer who is the only one really making any money. This issue is compounded once the green card process begins, because jumping ship would be having to start ALL over again unless you've already got EAD.
Also, H1Bs are NOT always cheaper for the hiring company. An H1B contractor costs just as much as any other to the company hiring them from the same agent. Rates are generally determined by skillset and experience (not on visa status). But the H1B will be getting paid less because they are salaried and their employer is pocketing a large percentage of their rate. H1B contractors only getting 40-50% of their rate is very common in my experience, while any other contractor would be getting 75-80%.
I don't think it was the governments intention to depress the wages of H1Bs, but that's just the way it worked out. There are wage minimums (around 40k I think), but that's it.
> So you've decided to replace it with your own brand of tyrrany?
...
Um yeah, it's called DEMOCRACY
> They're not asking you to bow to anything, you divisive bigot. All they're demanding is the right to get up off their own knees and stand beside you as equals.
Right, marriage determines equality. Gotcha.
> What label would you use for anyone who would deny their fellow man such a right? How can you even imply that such a label is somehow unwarranted, or unearned?
The People of California? Sorry but different states think differently and I'm sorry if that offends you. But freaking out and yelling Biggot also probably doesn't help.
> (And yes, I can say with resolute and immediate authority that California is, in fact, chock full of assholes, of every brand, stripe, and political leaning)
Stay out of California I guess (and Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah)
I see nothing inappropriate about a Church encouraging their members to be active in a current political issue and last time I checked people are free to donate to whatever cause they like.
However, there have been some allegations of the church contacting non-members which must be reported to the state and wasn't.
Wow, there sure are alot of assholes in Califoria.
OR maybe they're not really jerks and revilers, just normal people tired of the tyranny of political correctness in this country.
Time to stop labeling people who don't bow to the Gay movement as heartless abusers.
They'd never sue for 98EUR.
They'll just forward her to a collection agent who will harass her for the next couple of years.
Or if they're a scam, they'll just give up after a while.
Don't be too hard on the kid, he's just a teenager after all. What guy that age doesn't have some angst to vent?
Nobody likes to get their ass kicked in a game - take some time to play it by yourself then have a re-match with him and kick his butt(in a nice way). You'll have more fun and he'll respect you for beating him on his own turf.
But there are games you're never going to win at, so if he wants to play with you, then make sure to play some games where you are the expert. This will ensure no one is always winning (or losing) and give you the feeling of fairness you're looking for.
A lot of visas require degrees/diplomas + experience. ie TN/H1. I'm a Canadian working in the US on an TN, for which a university degree is a requirement.
If you want to keep your options open, I would seriously recommend pursuing a degree. A CS degree, despite what some have said, isn't just a lot of hoop jumping. You will learn many fundamentals of computers from hardware to databases to software engineering. Actually, the hoops are there no matter what path you take, degree or self taught. In the course of a 4 year degree you will definitely take a lot stuff that seems meaningless but some of it will be interesting even if it is not in your field. Will you have to kiss the occasional prof's butt? Sure. But this is reality and even more so in the corporate world. Almost every colleague I knew that got a promotion got it because his/her manager loved them - definitely not on technical merit alone. Want to take the self taught path? Better be prepared to work your ass off. From the posts here most of the guys who made it this way worked at least the first few years in crap jobs. Can you really see yourself working in a call center?
But to each their own. If you're an entrepreneurial type with *a lot* of motivation I'm sure you'll be successful eventually either way.
Best of luck.
Since these were probably just CSRs, they probably would have been accessing customer records via a published internal interface which of course will log and audit all transactions.
Also, these sorts of systems are not stupid and will categorize VIPs differently from your average Joe thus giving their records added scrutiny during any audit which explains how quickly the perps were caught.
SQL queries at the DB level using a service account would have allowed them to snoop autonomously. The service account would protect them to a certain degree since these are generic credentials that any number of people (admins) might have access to. Also, raw SQL is normally not logged on a production system, although it can be. But it doesn't really sound like these guys had this level of access.
Debt is an inevitability, to one degree or another, for those who don't have the cash (or their parents don't) to drop on their education and IMHO most of the time makes sense. I worked summers and did an internship, but even with all that still ended up around $40k in debt. The government forgave 10k and I was left with the rest. But I would much rather rack up some debt and be able to really focus on studying rather than having than burdening myself with the additional responsibility of a full/part time job.
Also, working your way through school to avoid debt, as some here have proposed, doesn't always make sense if it will significantly defer your graduation. The $12/hr you're making now cannot compare with the $25/hr after you graduate. Plus how stressful would it be to be working full time with a full course load? Of course if for some reason you actually find yourself with spare time/energy then by all means get a job - but this certainly wasn't my situation.
After you graduate, put in a few solid years with a good company then start jumping. If you have a CS degree then 6 figures is well within your reach and if you're focusing on paying off debt, it shouldn't take you more than a couple years.
Of course there are ways to greatly reduce debt load:
- COMMUNITY COLLEGE: stay there as long as possible. The teacher to student ratios and hence the quality of instruction is much better. 1/2 price tuition. Do your experimenting where it's cheap.
- Live with your parents. Seriously. If your sanity/social life can handle it, then do it. Rent is money down the drain. This probably implies that you're going to a local university.
- Live humbly. Do you really need that car?
- get a scholarship
Both are valid motivations, but might take you in very different directions.
Couple years after I had just graduated money was really tight. I had a rock solid perm job but at just a couple years out of university, I was being paid crap. So I bought a commercial cleaning business to do on the side. Nothing glamorous, but I wanted to start small since it was my first go at this sort of thing.
It was a BLAST! Doubled my income almost overnight. It was like I had this double life or something. But all good things must end and after a couple years I was totally burned out. Since I had really just been in it for the cash, I thought that there had to be a less stressful way - so I decided to sell out and just focus on my one career (Java) for a while.
Just one year later I was making what I had been before with just one job thanks to consulting. There's a lot of money to be made in just computers if you're willing to go and chase it.
If your motivation is a need for some variety, then you could pick all sorts of things, really depending on your own interests. Some things my geek colleagues have done:
- freelance photographer (portraits/real estate)
- home renovation/house flipping
- trading: stocks/forex
- slumlord
Something I'd really like to do is open a bead and breakfast, but I can't do what while I'm consulting.
On what you want to do in your career. I mean seriously, have you thought about it? Game programmer? DBA? Internet/eCommerce? Device driver developer? Management?
What you're shooting for will dramatically influence what technologies you will be using, hence the background you will need to do the job. Make a list of the top 3 IT market segments you would like to end up in and then find out what is needed to work there. A simple way to do this is go to Dice, and search on your target area. A detailed job description will tell you in a nutshell what your skill set needs to look like. I'd say that a good working knowledge of C/C++/ASM is important for any Java developer, but a much deeper knowledge will be required in certain market segments such as gaming.
| My education has not been particularly difficult or time consuming to get
| good grades, so I have spent my free time dabbling in topics and languages
| that interest me (ie Multiple GUI Toolkits, Python, Linux).
If you're working under a full course load and not finding it 'particularly difficult', then I'd say you're a very bright individual (good for you). However, this also means you're not getting your money's worth from your university (not so good for you). I'm sure there are other worthy subjects you can include in your studies that will challenge you appropriately. Try taking something that you normally wouldn't. Maybe a second language. I studdied some art history my last year of CS and had a blast. Your last year of CS is probably the most important because you have the opportunity to do some project based courses and test the theories you've learned.
Don't underestimate real world experience. A coop/Internship (potentially with more than one employer) can help you get your bearings.
Also, keep your options open. Don't assume that you will be in IT forerver. Keep your GPA up - this will keep the door open for a Masters or PhD or other professional school (ie Law, Medicine).
Good luck!