Slashdot Mirror
IT Job Without a Degree?
adh0c writes "I have been lurking Slashdot for some time now without registering and I don't think this question has been answered yet. Is it possible to get a good IT job (assuming that there is such a thing), preferably a sysadmin position, without having a BS or other degree? From browsing the job postings on Monster and such, it would seem that everyone wants university papers. Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
Since, there are lots of people who have the degree, I think that you will be in bad shape to compete against them.
Without a degree, the only way to really get a sysadmin job would be a few years of experience, certifications, and some good recommendations/connections.
Absolutely. Frankly I don't see why anyone would require a degree for a SysAdmin position. The skills required for such a position are better aquired nerding at home or being an assistant...
Do you really want to be a computer janitor? It's a good part-time or summer job but should only be a whistle stop on your way to CS degree or other useful education.
mostly by knowing someone/demonstration is how i've made it. make an impression, show your skills. my resume and publications speak for themselves mostly.
Yes, but you'll probably need to work your way up or get into a small shop via networking. You'll need to prove yourself and work hard.
Consider that a university degree takes ~4 years w/o pay... you shouldn't expect to jump in at the same level w/o a similar ordeal.
One of the things that has always appealed to me about computers is that people who deal with them are as often hired on ability as credentials. I don't know any IT guys who are respected for anything other than ability and how easy they are to work with. I hope that this isn't going to change. But I don't think it will, because some of us find these devices inherently fascinating, and spend endless amounts of time learning about them just because we enjoy it. It is very hard for someone just wanting to complete a degree and get a job to compete with that. I would say, based on my experience, that if you are good you will rise to your level regardless of credentials.
Augustus
I propose the article be renamed to "Useful (stupid) employment tricks"
There's no way you can start as a sysadmin without having the degree, but there are other ways. I'd suggest starting at a lower level with a company that will pay for your certs, get your MSCE, CCNE, etc and work your way up.
HR departments are all about covering their own asses. A degree (and course grades) is the easiest "objective" evidence of some sort of qualification.
You're going to have to at least do an 18 month "ITT Tech" style training program to not get weeded out right off the top.
Yes, one can get an IT position without a degree, but usually its a management position with major decision making capabilities. You might even have the chance to create novel products or services like the Cue Cat or HomeGrocer.com. Be sure the negotiations include a hiring bonus for a new Beemer and back-dated stock options. Also, watch the movie dot-com before making any life altering decisions.
but it's certainly going to be harder getting a foot in the door.
I've seen autodidact sysadmins do quite a lot better than ones with degrees, however the reverse is also true.
In general my experience is companies will prefer one with a degree over autodidact people, reason being someone with a degree has shown ability to sit down and learn - this is very important since pretty much no matter what job you end up getting there is going to be some learning to get familiar with the running systems.
I'm the senior network administrator for an S&P 500 company and I have some college but no degree. I do have a ton of industry certifications, but I only got those for employers who asked for AND payed for them. Of course before I got my first "real" IT job I had already owned my own PC company for 5 years and volunteered for a number of different schools and charitable organizations so it wasn't like I went in with zero experience to show on the resume. I also started near the bottom as a deskside support guy. I think the only way to get in today without any formal education would definitely be to work a helpdesk position. Personally I would look for a midsized company because if you show good initiative, hard work, and some smarts it's a lot more likely you will move up from within. That's what happened to my junior admin, he had been stuck at the helpdesk level at a number of very large companies but within 2 years of starting with my company he was advanced because he showed all the traits needed to be a good sysadmin.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I never finished my degree, yet I have been able to pursue a computing career without it being a roadblock.
My present role is as an engineer at Google.
Sparks:Gadget:Beer Maker
That's not completely true. You can also do well going to a trade school instead of college.
We've had good results with simply giving out actual trial programming tasks and comparing the results of several programmers.
Degrees don't seem to be a strong predictor of usefulness.
Incidentally, we're hiring right now.
https://spideroak.com/blog/200810280100
But there are jobs and then there are jobs. Keep in mind that first and foremost question in the mind of a hiring person is whether or not you can do the job, and whether your skills are good value for the money they will be paying you. And plus you can forget the big labels. You will have to start in a small company, gain a few years of experience under your belt, and then try to apply for a better position.
Or instead, you can just do a few certification courses while you are working. While most companies would prefer someone with a computer degree, they also are willing to take someone who has proven level of skills.
... but I would advise against it.
I am living proof that it is possible, but that was right in the internet bubble, when I got media attention for designing a website and was hired as a web designer. I learned programming Perl and PHP on the job, together with basic sysadmin and this experience let me apply for a job as servicedesk employee, get more experience doing sysadmin stuff, getting my MCSE and ending up being a consultant, coÃrdinating 5 people in releasing software packages over 4000 machines working in a bank and insurance environment. And this within 10 years.
I suspect however that if you don't have any experience, you'll have a tough time getting a sysadmin position. Try to find a position as service desk calltaker, study hard on various certification exams and then go for junior sysadmin positions.
But remember employers will favour degree+experience over just experience... And in a tough economy with an overflow of available IT people with degrees, you score low.
...started as an operator and is now a Sr. VP at a very prominent software company. Start small and you can go a long way!
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
You may find a job without a degree, but expect to be offered half or less of what a person with a degree would get. My son-in-law "to be" worked as IT mgr for non-profit for several years while going to college and getting degree, and was almost instantly able to land a job making three times as much with full benefits as soon as he graduated and started applying w/degree in hand, (got job in Solar panel manufacturing/installation industry, an industry that seems to be holding it's own in the recession).
Short answer is "yes, you need a degree"
The fortune 500 typically have HR departments that roboticly follow a check-list and a college degree is almost always on that checklist. You won't even get to the point where an actual technical manager will see your resume without one.
But, smaller shops without an HR department to institutionalize stupidity may let you in to interview and if you are a hot-shot than no one gives a damn about a degree.
If you are a hot-shot, you can also work contract. Contractors often bypass the HR department completely, even at fortune500 companies. No one hires a contractor for their college degree. They do hire contractors for their experience and knowledge.
So, if don't have experience your only hope is a college degree. But if you do have experience and are good at it, then the world is your oyster.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I've known many people who were great sys admins or developers who did not have degrees so it is possible. However, it is much easier to get a job if you have the degree. Every time you do a job interview you will spend 5-10 minutes explaining why you don't have a degree - that is, if they even bother to call you in. That's 5-10 minutes that you're spending getting yourself up to the level of the other applicants that you could have spent putting yourself above the level of the other applicants.
Your pay level may suffer throughout your career as well. When I was in college, I had a job as a developer at a computer company. I switched from a full-time student, part-time developer to being a part-time student, full-time developer. They even asked me once to drop out to devote more time to the job. One day they hired a new developer, fresh out of college. She was quite sharp but had 0 experience. One day it came out over lunch how much she was making and it was more than me. I asked my boss why and he replied "She has her degree". Needless to say, I didn't entertain any more requests to drop out and work more.
Prior to my retirement I spent five years as a technical architect. No degree. Made an absolute fucking fortune and an insane portfolio. Now I'm dedicating the next decade to being with my family. Fuck the work.
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
I was hired at my company based on nothing but an internship and my personal experience. They also gave me a pop quiz on site to make sure I had a clue.
Those pieces of paper don't mean anything if you can't figure problems out fast, and my IT team knows that. Video game companies tend to not be your average workplace, however.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall
With your opinion which is of no consequence at all
In my 3rd year of pursuing my Bachelors Degree in Telecommunications, I dropped out of College in 1996 for the allure of the Computer Industry. I started as an entry level IS Support Technician (Help Desk) and moved up several layers through the "Help Desk" chain. I realized after 2 years that getting out of Help Desk was going to be difficult. That's when I jumped ship for a startup company that offered me a Systems Administration job. I've been a Sys Admin since 1998 and feel the need at this time to go back and finish my Degree if I ever want to go into management of any kind.
To answer your questions:
"Can I get a Systems Admin position without a Degree?"
Yes you can, but you have to really work towards it by gaining a good amount of experience (3-5yrs technician work) and perhaps take some risks as many of us have in order to secure the rights to wear the Sys Admin hat.
"Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
I recommend at least an AA Degree and a couple of paper certifications to get you started. Anything less is reducing your odds significantly.
Disregard all these flame-boys with their computer janitor comments and remember this:
Do what you love to do.
If you have any doubts about what it is you want, I recommend taking on a "Geek Squad" job or looking elsewhere. You only get one really good "free" chance to start a career, try to make sure it's one you'll enjoy looking forward to for 30+ years.
There are typically two reasons someone will employ you without a degree.
1). They want to get the best skills without paying for them.
2). You have sufficient experience that no-one reads your resume far enough to notice you've never been to college and wouldn't care either way, or you present extremely well at interviews.
I'd say work on (2) because companies that focus on (1) tend to be bad employers, although not always. Sometimes it's just employers who realise the value of the skills you have, not the paper you paid for that claims it.
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
I manage an area that fortunately has lots of people interested in working for us, doing sys admin work amongst other things. I wouldn't hire you. The problem is, all things being equal, the guy with a college education is going to win. Unfortunately, all things generally are equal. There's no shortage of people with good attitudes, good experience, and are bright. So, often the education becomes a focus. It proves you know how to learn, can follow directions, and have some discipline to pursue a long-term goal.
Now, having said that, if one of my friends told me I had to hire you, I'd generally trust them and do it. So, it's possible to work your way up, but it's hard.
I recommend working for the phone company. It's more interesting than computers anyway.
----- obSig
Just write a decent resumé/CV that outlines your abilities. Degrees don't mean squat in IT. People with them would like to think otherwise, but they don't. What matters is end results. If you are competent, skilled, and available, you're fine. The number of people with degrees I've worked with who were shit at their jobs is incredible - a degree does not automatically mean a person is skilled, and not having one doesn't mean you're not skilled. My advice: go for it.
A degree is one way of getting your first job. A basic BSc. won't really mean anything after the first 2 years in the industry, although some employers will pay more attention to a Masters, or a Doctorate especially.
If you can't show previous jobs, write your own software and publish it somewhere. Or contribute to open source projects. There are some people who can read code who also have the power to hire.
Get some industry certifications. Microsoft certification, (*ducks*) Java certification etc. are all worth something to some people. That's something you can get yourself for a lot less time and money than a degree although they're generally not worth as much.
All that aside, the current job market is not your friend right now - or anyone elses for that matter. :(
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
We've both hit six figure incomes doing it, too! The key is to actually do a good job and devote yourself to customer/boss satisfaction. It's more than just being technical--you have to be great at communicating with your boss or customer and setting expectations properly.
I've met techs who were far better than me technically but who were rotten at communicating with customers. And I've met far better communicators who knew less technical stuff than me and earned far more than I did (they eventually became technical sales consultants).
Word of mouth counts for much more than a degree on the resume. Hiring managers will often fast-track you to HR based on strong word-of-mouth recommendations. In the past six years, I've never had to show my resume--all my jobs were won by my sterling reputation.
It all depends on a lot of things, of course! Do you have any experience? What is your work background? If all of your experience is customer service at Best Buy, then you're probably not going to have much luck, going in cold.
You've got several options, none of which are easy.
You've got plenty of options... good luck!
--brian
Take on some volunteer work at a local charity of some sort as the IT guy, work your way up the volunteer chain until they start paying you for it.
I do have a colleague whose first job was right out of highschool at a local AIDS charity, ended up in the regional office for a while, now he works at some hosting firm for pretty decent money
...that specifically drops that requirement from any consideration or makes working for the degree a lot less costly.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Experience + certs.
You will have to tough it out for a year or two on helpdesk or desktops or field grunt work. Do your certs at night.
Cisco engineer, no tertiary IT qualifications at all, doing just fine with CCNA + experience + references.
Read Noble Laureate Michael Spence's famous article about Job Market Signaling Once you understand the thinking of this article you should try and think about what signals can you send to potential employers. It has to be something that can not easily be falsifier and it has to have been "expensive" for you to achieve. Expensive defined as effort by you. Contributing meaningful to an Open Source project or something like that.
Help fight continental drift.
See above.
Crack the books, learn some good stuff, and go to work. Sure you can get a good job after working hard for a long time without a degree in shit jobs. Or you can get a degree and (maybe) still work shit jobs but with good pay and health/vacation benefits.
You can likely get to the same place with or without a degree if you are motivated. It's a matter of on what timeline.
The second thing I want to say is be patient. You're going to get an entry-level position and you've got a lot of learning to do. If you're willing to learn and you show ability, then you'll get more responsibility.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.
I currently work as a Systems Architect, working on fairly distributed systems and a wide range of languages and tools. I have the Finnish equivalent of a High School education, on the formal level.
I started in a help desk job and worked my way up, always trying to learn new stuff and seeking out new jobs when I felt I was standing still. With enough experience I now hold positions which need the skills equivalent of a university level education.
So yes, it's possible. Risky, but possible. Learn the art of interviewing.
.: Max Romantschuk
I'm a Systems Engineer (SAN & ESX) at a large Australian hosting company. I started out as a Level 1 phone tech at an ISP, switched after a year to the hosting company as a Level 2 and after about 2 years went for my current role. You can get a Sysadmin job without a Uni degree but: - You'll have to work your way up vs going straight in after Uni - It's probably easier at the same company provided you keep a good rep for hard work without drama - You learn outside of the role eg. setup a home ESX cluster from old comps, this doesn't have to be training with a piece of paper (though it helps) but just to show you really know your subject matter
It is not physically possible.
It's all fun & games until someone loses the game.
I've dropped out of college six or so times (depends on how you count) and still don't have a degree. Nevertheless I'm holding a very technical and highly challenging and enjoyable programming position and absolutely no one I work with cares in the least about my interrupted education. What they do care about is my technical ability and I wouldn't have been hired if I hadn't been able to impress the engineers I interviewed with.
That said, the company I work for isn't too large, and I was referred by a friend, so I was able to clear the first hurdle of just getting noticed. It's unfortunate, but with larger companies especially, a decidedly non-technical person (or an equivalent SQL query) will be reviewing your resume and will only be looking for certain magic keywords. My advice is to make sure you're solid technically (which you should be anyways), then either try at smaller companies where you're more likely to be noticed, or impress someone and have them bring your resume in. There are, I'm sure, other ways to go about this, but that's my experience. Good luck.
"I am Dr. Freud, but you may call me.siggy."
Getting an SA/SE/NE job without a degree is fairly easy. The degree is only useful in passing the initial HR education check. I recommend that you bypass this check by having an insider get you an interview. Once you have your first job and foundation for a resume, finding other/better jobs becomes much easier. Passing the phone screen and interview will be entirely on you. Make sure your fundamental skills are sharp. Look over the job listing and invest 72 hours reviewing your weak spots. I conduct a number of phone screening and p2p interviews. I have a list of general questions ranging from basic to complex. For SAs, I usually start with the following.
/commands that they are most comfortable with. I could care less if they know the intricacies of windows/unix/linux chattr/chown/chmod, I just need them to understand the concepts and be able to read, interpret, and implement the information in a man page. I've ended up converting a fair number of MCSEs to actual SAs this way.
In pseudo script (any language, bash, dos, etc)do the following:
copy a file from dir A to Dir B
copy a file from server A dir A to server B dir B
copy all/only xml files from server A dir A to server B dir B
copy all files except xml files from Server A directory A (recursively) to servers B, C, D, E
As you see, the questions range from "are you retarted", to "are you useless" to "are you actually able to use what you know to solve something". I really don't care if the candidate is 100% syntactically correct on the phone. What I do care about is "how" they think. Do they use a for loop and find combo (for foo in `find . -name *xml` ; do scp dirA/${foo} user@serverb:/dirb/ ; done ), or are they using ls/grep/xargs, or do they not know scp, ftp, or windows UNC path utilization and shouldn't be interviewing for an SA position. I have a set of questions for pretty much evey dicsipline that a job at my company would require (regex, sql, etc), and let the candidate use the language
YMMV but I don't even have a High School Diploma, and have a well paying job in IT as a Systems Engineer/Admin. I get to go overseas to work with an expense account that pays for most everything. If you have a good outgoing personality, and have a real interest in what you do, you will succeed. I see too many drones that have Diplomas up the ying-yang, that got into the industry because "they thought IT was a good career choice" while absolutely having no interest whatsoever.
Actually, the most well paid (well into 6 figures) buddy I have doesn't have a High School diploma. On average everyone I know that doesn't have a Uni Diploma makes MORE than the ones that do. Again, YMMV.
Your evaluation period for Productivity 1.0 has ended. Please purchase more coffee to continue using this product.
Of course you can. I left High school 2 years early, got a diploma (dunno what that equates to in the US?) and now Im contracting in an unrelated discipline (Diploma in Network Engineering, working Web Design/Development). And before someone mentions $$ - both by previous and current contracts are six figures. I was somewhat lucky, but I am also living proof you don't always need a piece of paper.
What is...?
No degree?
Shipping in a PhD is more cost effective than hiring you.
Ten years ago I had no diplomas but I wanted to get money from playing with linuxes. At first I helped school sysadmin for free. The guy gave paper saying that I was possibly worth to try.
Next I got my first real job as a technical sales support for small company selling software and some hardware. Pay was minimum that law made possible. After staying year there I applied to telco and said that minimum wage is ok. At the end it took about three or four years to get same salary as other. On the other hand I've always done what I've wanted.
Be warned. This method requires lots of effort. You will need to teach things to yourself. It will take lots of time and as long your skills are not good pay is lousy.
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm. Don't let anyone lie to you and say you need a degree, for what you lack with paper you'll just need to make up for with effort.
Qualifications aren't just for show, they mean that you've extended your knowledge in the area and that someone has verified it.
There's a lot more to computing than writing a few programs that do something useful without crashing. That's important too, but it barely figures on the wider scale of merit of a computing professional.
What a CompSci education gives you is tons and tons of theory and context: theory so that you have a large portfolio of logically sound techniques upon which to draw instead of reinventing them and doing so badly, and context so that you understand why you're doing something, why you should not do something else, and how your solutions fit in with all the other methods and systems in the subject area.
Without an education in this field, you won't even know when you're making a mistake, owing to lack of theory and context. Your boss may like you because you'll always be saying "Yes" (until everything falls apart), but nobody else will appreciate it, not even you yourself in time. And you'll feel dumb every time that you come into contact with other computer people, as well as getting a bad rep because you can't hide ignorance in tech.
Just don't.
Take the time and make the effort to get yourself a proper CompSci education. You won't regret it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Getting a job in IT without a degree is extremely challenging.
Without a degree you may be able to get a Hell Desk job at most. From there depending on the company and your performance, you might be able to climb the ladder.
To get yourself promoted, take on projects outside of your normal duties, making sure you can succeed at them. Nobody gets promoted simply by keeping clientele at bay on a daily basis.
In order to receive pay raises, you may need to switch companies. Companies rarely notice (salary wise) how much experience an employee has gained over the years.
In the end though, you may be out of luck. The company I work for did not give me a decent paycheck until three months before I got my BS. I had a two year degree already, which is probably what allowed me to get my foot in the door.
Consider getting at least a two year degree from a reputable community college. Avoid private technical colleges like the plague, nobody takes them seriously. Load up on credits that you can transfer to a four year public university, and get a BS degree in something.
A degree might take five years, but that five years will last a lifetime. However, five years of job experience may only last a decade.
A computer science BS degree is four years long? Or more? Although, the cases are much greater that you will convince recruiters and interviewers, that you have the skills to make the business want to hire you. You do not necessary need such a BS degree. What I did was take Certificate courses at University of Washington for C, C++ and JAVA. Each langauge coonsisted of 3 classes. Beginning C, Intermidate C and finally C Advanced. So, for a total of 9 classes for the 3 languages. At about 500 dollars a class, this aproach is WAY WAY less than a full blown 4 year commitment to a BS degree. The final BILL and resulting student loans may take years and years to pay off. What you need to do, is build web sites. Write software, even if the software is already commmon and written. Have code and working programs as proof you can code. If you are in Networking, write articles and Subnet masks, how they work, and post them to as many blog and tutorials HOWTO sites as you can. making sure your Full real name is credited with their submission and prove they are authentic. Finally, make friends on the Internet, by chatting in Forums and collecting a 'contacts list'. Meeting people already in the field, I have been offered many jobs, even to goto London to work for someone there. What you may end up finding you will only know. until you try. Dont expect to find anything, just do it and see what happened. Have a portfolio of your work, that with Certs in your specific fields of interest (even able to be taken ONLINE) is the most efficient way through pricy college fees.
Hi
IÂm not exactly IT guy, but IÂve done tech support and sysadmin stuff in a small scale. My primary job is 3d graphic designer.
I donÂt have any degrees on these fields. In fact, my studied profession is social educator.
The good thing with degrees is that employer has better idea of your competence beforehand. Degree also shows that you can dedicate many years of your life to something. Third, it shows that you are able to learn new stuff.
But if you are able to impress employer face to face, then it probably is not a problem, at least in the private sector.
Unless you don't have the paper DUE to a lack of effort! Not that I would know...
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
Depends on the country and how snobby the company is. There are plenty of smart companies hiring autodidact people, but they just have to prove their credentials through other means, and will be tested harder at interviews.
Personally I work as CDO without any degree, but that is because I've studied at the highest IT education in Denmark where it is common for students to quit before finishing the degree because they are offered 6 figured salaries (in dollars).
On the other hand, I turned down a job offer from Google, because their mentality there is such that you can't have a career there without a Ph.D.
So if you want to get hired as an autodidact, either work you way from the bottom, or get involved in open source and write some really awesome code that proves your proficiency.
I only have my high school diploma but i always managed to get very good payed jobs (That's why i never finished my college)
If you are autodidact and learn new stuff instead of playing stupid games, and if you can prove you're better than everybody else in a interview, then it's easy.
i'm just 28, i'm now a project manager and my salary is over 100k.
But if possible, to back to school.
I agree with starting at a lower level position but I'm not sure about no IT career without a degree.
I work for my college's IT department, it's a small shop and my direct boss doesn't have a degree. However he spent quite a few years at a couple different places getting lots of experience and he is now the senior help desk guy and mid-level sys admin. As I said we are a small shop so there is alot of cross over between jobs but not all of the higher level people have degrees.
With that said, without a degree you aren't going to get the top level jobs, my brother has a BS in CS and an MBA and makes six figures as a system administrator. I don't think someone without a degree or a ton of experience has that much earning potential. Though if you've got what it takes and don't mind proving it for a few years I think it's possible to get a career in IT without a degree.
IT obviously uses a lot of CS, but it is not CS, and is certainly not nuclear physics or medicine. For working in the real world, there are pile of things that are just as important, if not more so, than your educational background. Are you willing to work hard? Long hours? Stay up to date on new technology (if only to let your bosses know that you don't need it)? Deal with fickle and often unreasonable management? Deal with so-so pay and/or benefits? Do you have good communication skills? The ability to translate loose/abstract/unclear requirements into concrete ones? Do you have good networking skills? Are you a lifelong self-learner (college stops, your learning never does or can in this industry)?
This is just a starting point. A degree will get you in the door, but a straight A student who is unwilling or unable to navigate the often unforgiving and highly capricious real world will fail every bit as badly as the hard-working know-nothing.
If you want to write software for NASA, or the DoD, you may be out of luck. If you want to design chips for Intel, you may be out of your league. If, however, you just want to be a systems administrator or developer - especially for a small or medium size organization - your hard work, self study, and tolerance for abuse will go far.
As long as interviews will be held by non technical people.
From the technical point of view I would say it's more important that you do have technical skills at the proper level than how you got them.
I do have BS, but rarely used those skills, by the way!
As with most places it is who you know, not what you know. Applying for a job online you need to compete with MANY x10 applicants who do have letters after their names.
If you are applying for a local job where you know people or cn network with people who do know, then you have a chance.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
The answer to this question really depends on the economics of the job market.
If there is an excess supply of degreed Systems Administrators and a limited number of available positions, much like now, getting a Systems Administration job without a degree is nigh-on impossible.
Alternatively, if there is a high demand and limited supply of degreed Systems Administrators, it's a piece of cake to get a Systems Administration position without a degree. The role may be a junior position, however it's a foot in the door and it will lead to the experience one needs to stay in the Systems Administration game without a degree even during difficult times.
If you're trying to get your first job now, reconsider whether it might make more sense to try to get a degree first. You can probably work a crap job part-time and live with the parents for a few years now in order for a pay-off in a few years.
If you must get a job now, and without a degree, set your expectations very low. You won't be doing much of the fun stuff.
It won't get you a job.
Third..ed? Left school in junior year and got a job repairing macs. Stayed there for three and a bit years and found a great job as a sysadmin for a reasonably sized organisation.
I'd say the most important thing is perseverance, and obviously you have to know something about what you're doing. This all comes with work experience. Good luck to you.
Getting job is one side of coin, the second side is getting safe job means you are sure for no reason related to academics you will be sacked, so getting job is easy without degree because working is directly proportional to competency & skills but staying and getting up in the verticals. seems tougher without a degree.... i myself started working in IT company before i was out of my grad school.
Oh, and whatever you do. Don't get a job working in phone support. I've heard it's incredibly hard to get out of, and you learn very little. Look for a job that challenges you every single day.
While I don't need to find new a job, I could instantly work in half a dozen places all around the world. Solely because I know people who work in the field with those people knowing that I am good. Similarly, there are several people I know which would get a job offer from where I work if they ever need one.
You need to be good at stuff, know people who are also good at stuff and then make sure they know you are good at stuff.
Places to start this process (yes, it takes time and you must not expect quick results) are your local LUGs, IRC, mailing lists and FLOSS projects. LUGs having the advantage of consisting of people who are close to where you live.
And yes, this is a long-term investment.
You could do that during the .com boom. Then everything went boom, and so did those jobs.
Absolutely.
I was offered my first job as a web developer when I was 17. I'd been studying English Literature at Otago University (New Zealand) until then, but had been doing casual front-end web development on the side.
Now I'm still on this first job, although I've been there well over a year. I'm earning above the average (New Zealand) salary, I've plenty of future prospects, I'm involved in some fairly interesting projects and I'm having a good time.
I don't see my lack of degree as being any problem in the future. Once you've got experience and can show previous work you've done you shouldn't have any problems. As other comments have said; getting your foot in the door is the hardest part.
(Oh. And shameless plug. My latest project was www.digitalnz.org
I was making 6 figures and then left to start my own company, and I still make 6 figures.
Someone once told me this, and it is true. It takes 2 things to be a success. One is intelligence, and the other is drive. Someone with a lot of intelligence and no drive will find it very hard to succeed. Someone with a lot of intelligence and a lot of drive will find it fairly easy to succeed. Someone with a lot of drive and little intelligence WILL SUCCEED.
All things being equal, execution is what it takes to win.
It's by no means guaranteed. A lot of companies take what they think is the safe way out by hiring people whose papers are in order. Of course, the fact that someone has a degree, or has an MCSE, or whatever, is no guarantee that they know jack. (Especially in the case of MCSEs. ;)
If you don't have a degree, though, you're going to have to offer them something else - like quantifiable hands-on experience with the OS, demonstrable skill, and, ideally, freakishly inhuman quick-learner stuff.
I've been there; I've done that; I've said things like "Give me the AOS/VS manual and the Fortran 77 manual, and I'll be up to speed in a couple days" and delivered. It's not a career path for the faint of heart, nor, I suspect, for the sane.
By the way, this also applies to other fields - in my case, astronomy, environmental policy and foreign affairs. The PhDs know I'm not a PhD, but they generally figure I must just have a Master's. ;)
(Applying for grad school soon, in hopes of fixing that.)
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
You can have a proper understanding of computers with out going to a University. It just takes more dedication and willingness then the average person has.
I've had conversations with people that have a "proper CompSci education" and they couldn't hold an intelligent conversation about programming with a monkey.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
No degree, HS dropout w/ GED. No certs (I'm about to get my Security+ due to job requirements), in 100k /yr sysadmin position. Oh, and I managed to get a Secret Clearance out of the deal too...
Granted, I may have worked harder to get here, but it is possible. Even so, in the environment I'm in, I'd almost rather be in a trade then a Sysadmin type position.
There's a theory of trust called "signaling", the idea is that for those who do not know you personally there are particular 'signals' that someone who is a Philomath and a hard worker will fulfill. One of those things is to get a degree.
On top of that, even after you have a job, it is important to continue to 'signal' interest and motivation. If you stay later than you're "being paid for" and come in earlier than expected then you are 'signaling' interest in the wellbeing of the company. If you continue your education while doing the aforementioned you are 'signaling' that you are motivated.
A degree says one thing: you where willing to work hard enough to get through collage. It also opens up a career path. Without a degree you are only as valuable as your trade skill. With a collage degree you are able to advance, through an executive MBA or masters in your field, and become a leader of men.
If "database guru" is your life's goal I am sure you can make enough money to raise a family on without getting a collage degree. But if sending your own kids through collage is your intent then the number one predictor of that is you, yourself, going through collage.
It's fairly easy to get out of, if you get out quickly. Both places I've been, you're pretty much either out of the front line phones within a year, or you're stuck there practically forever.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
I don't know about the States, but up here in Canada they are addicted to Certs, age and University degrees for ANY job, let alone IT stuff.
I am a dual citizen, and moved back to London, England not long after I left high school. I grabbed a job as an IT tech at 19 years old that payed about 45k a year and moved up to 55k with-in 18 months. All they cared about was my experience, and even more important my ability. I moved back to Canada a few years later and was shocked to realize that they were perfectly willing to ignore my experience due to my lack of A+ certs. I got fed up being their "go-to" guy to fix all the cert'ed tech's mistakes, but they still refused to pay me the same.
I moved back to London and picked up an sys administrator job for the media dept. of a large sixth form college that payed 54K a year, day one. The guy I replaced was cert'ed up to his eyeballs, but they fired him because he could not relate to people.
I'm back in Canada for other reasons now, but only now that the baby boomers are starting to retire are companies getting over the age/Certs hang-ups.
... when I started back in 2001. I *almost* finished my university, practically missing a few key grades. I hovered around a lot of job agencies at that time, carefully and honestly explaining my situation (*almost* finished, got the bagage, not the paper). This was taken up good with one agency, and they included me in a trainee-track ; the application consisted of some simple tests which were the same for my colleagues who *did* have a degree.
So I ended up with the same job as my peers, same pay, same benefits, same internal courses. Did I get lucky ? Don't know - it mostly came down on knowing that you have the qualities which come with the paper, and conveying that knowledge to any interviewers you come across.
When I lost my job due to reorganization/fifo, I did have issues (I was not the only one though, others with a degree were also sacked). The time (2003) was not very good to be on the market, and it took me quite a few months to get a new job, for which I also had to readjust some of my wishes (not a technical job, but more database oriented). After a year, I managed to get a new job with an employer that *was* technically (and not database) oriented. All that, without a degree.
Currently, I do have a degree ; I decided the hassle was too great. Yes you can get a job, but you always have to be careful on how to approach (while still being honest!).
In the end, getting the degree was easy - never knew what kept me from finishing it in the first place (with first class honours no less...).
Answer: yes you can get a good IT job without a degree; be honest about your qualifications, include your real-world experience; for bargaining, use the "I will get my degree within a year" card - and keep that promise.
I've recently been laid off, and I was thinking about looking for something entry-level in the IT field (help desk or something) and trying to get a foot in the door somewhere. (Hell, I've been looking at doing IT work all my life, but just never finished the BS in CS.)
Does it help to have worked on projects that you can show to someone? Will they care to see example code, or does this not come up as long as you can "talk the talk"?
The reason I ask is that, unfortunately, I've not written a line of C/C++ in over 6 years, and most of my recent work was done AT work (mostly JavaScript and VB, but I can pick up most languages pretty quickly), which then became the property of my company and was lost along with my job...in short, I can perform but I have nothing to show, and very little time to whip up something impressive to show off. Will that kill my chances?
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
I dropped out of college during the dot com boom. No degree at all. No certs either. I graduated from high school in '93. Last year I cleared $150k. It was an unusually good year but even this year I'll do better than $110k. I normally post with my named slashdot account but since I'm providing salary info to support what I'm saying I'll post anonymously. You won't do this well starting out of course, I've been at it 15 years. But you can definitely get jobs and make good money with dedication and the right attitude.
You need passion. You need to be good. You need to love what you do. You need to be opinionated and become known for something. I'm known for being good at Linux. And I work on my personal Linux-related projects or work projects all the time. Even now on a Sunday night I'm converting my personal svn repo to hg. My wife is downloading music on her Linux laptop while I work on hg and browse slashdot and the dogs play under the computer desk. Once she is done downloading music we'll hit the gym for an hour or so. Then I'll come back home and mess with my hg migration for a little longer before going to bed.
Being a good talker and not a total anti-social geek helps too. If you are a total introvert who can't make friends or get along with people then by all means get the degree. You'll need all the help you can get. But if you are passionate about some sort of technology be it Linux, Windows (gag), coding, and aren't a total social reject you can do it. I'm a bit introverted and not really outgoing myself (working on changing that) but I'm mild mannered and people get to like me easily enough.
Being clean-cut and dressing professionally helps also. Dress for the job you want. The last 4 years I've been wearing a dress shirt, slacks, and nice leather shoes. I have short cut hair, no jewelry, no tattoos. I don't smoke. People trust me more easily this way. Look the part and you are more likely to get it.
Monster is a poor place to look for a job. Get involved in the local sysadmin scene, have a few personal projects going on, have a good personal website, get involved in local LUGs and professional groups, and get your name out there. That is how you get jobs. The job I have now I got through a LUG contact. The job before that I got as a result of having kept in touch with some folks from my first sysadmin job almost 15 years ago. Meet people and keep that network of friends and contacts going. Remember: You are your own personal brand. Build it up. Get your name out there!
That reminds me...I need to make a big fat donation to the FSF and whatever charity Linus prefers (perhaps the Buy Linus A Beer Foundation). Without Linux I wouldn't have my house, my car, or my wife (who I met on a business trip while on my way to do Linux related stuff). I met them all because of Linux and Free Software. I have been so lucky to have my freedom, a roof over my head, and food on my table. THANK YOU!
Yes it is very much possible to achieve something like that. My friends only have degrees from tradeschools (in finland at highschool level) (no MBA or BS) One is head-admin of a shipping company, another is his closest helper. Another of my friends have been offerd a job at a global shipping company admin. Then there are a few who are sysadmins in municipalities and on federal level here. None of them have a higher education degree.
I dropped out of High School as a sophomore. I immediately started working in the industry. I started out doing tech support, and eventually moved into network administration. In IT, what people care about is your ability. Companies know that the best IT workers are those that would do it as a hobby even if they couldn't do it professionally.
In Zoology. I got my first job on the strength of my CNE (old-school Novell certification, equivalent of a MCSE today) and willingness to work cheap. That started my career. Once you have experience it's all good.
Hah... "Supercloud"!
I have had done very well but I do a lot of contract work. i have a good reputation and well respected for my views and ability to solve problems. With no degree or trade school training. Though I did try to do the trade school thing, hint go to college if you want the education. Most trade schools are proving to be ripoffs. I even worked for NASA on contract so yes its very possible to move in the IT field with no formal education. I have been a Lead Systems Administrator for a couple of companies and also worked as a CIO/CTO for a small company in Texas. A few people were very surprised I had no college education in the IT field whatsoever, which, as far as I know, there was only one person whom ever complained about being more qualified than me but the boss there shut him up. Not sure what he said to the guy but he stopped immediately. Truth is, this business is less about degrees than it is about results. If you make results happen you make a good reputation for yourself. Also anyone without a degree needs to be active in the online community so that you have an instant reference other than that. No degree no worries for me.
Get temp jobs doing computer type jobs for small companies. Show that you shine and youll be the "Whizz Kid". Even if its data entry or something. Your first few jobs might be a bit boring but the cunning plan is how you write your CV/Resume. That data entry job suddenly becomes
"Worked in the IT Department assisting with data collection systems and acted as first point of call for members of staff requiring support".
That'll act as a stepping stone for your next career move and before you know it you will be away!
N.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Consider a job in infosec. Here are a few quick suggestions for building experience without a job - Research something within the infosec space, publish a paper - Find some vulns and publish some advisories (responsible disclosure!!) - Start attending OWASP chapter meetings and start networking I've been in infosec for 8 years without a degree and as long as you know wtf you're talking about (as is the case in many tech jobs), can admit when you don't know something, and can figure it out on your own you're fine.
Believe me, if I started murdering people, there would be none of you left.
'BS degree' says it all. Most of these posters have degrees so they don't really know what they are talking about when they say it's a requirement. It depends also on what you want to do. Many sys admins inherit the job and were once programmers (the best way IMO since you understand the systems you are managing). But much of the 'education' you can get at university is.. eh. Still that depends on if we are talking MIT or E. Buttfuck Community College. BOTTOM LINE: You need to know your stuff. You can do this at the library (or online) if you are committed. To that I would further that a HS degree is unnecessary. Has anyone ever asked you to prove you graduated HS? Most of it is BS, so why not dump public school and start studying on your own towards something practical? PS Consulted on Wall ST for years; no CS (or any) degree.
From what I've heard here in Australia, you can still get just about any IT job without a degree, however, if you don't have a degree you won't be paid as if you did. A degree doesn't just show the employer that you can do something, it gives them a reason to pay you well for it.
I started with a local ISP in sales and moved through helpdesk and am now managing the department and working as on-call sysadmin and engineer in training, the only thing stopping me from making the jump to full sysadmin/engineer is a lack of desire for that type of work, I prefer to work with the desk monkeys. I dropped out of community college and worked in construction, only ended up where I am due to an injury that took me out of the construction field. best thing that ever happened to me.
You're not going to land a senior level position making a ton of money without a college degree, but if you apply yourself, you'll find someone willing to hire you. You need to know a lot about what it is that you want to do, and you need to be willing to get paid dirt, and maybe get treated like it, for a while, too.
While you're at your dirt job, you'll meet people. Make sure to keep in touch with at least some of the good ones. They'll be future references for you, and are worth about 10x a college degree, give or take a few multiples.
Some places are snobby and will never hire you without a degree, period, end of story. I'd tend to avoid those kinds of places, anyway, though, because so many of the brightest engineers I know are degree-less. I've also interviewed candidates with degrees, for what was advertised as a senior-level software engineering role, who were unable to define basic computer science terms, such as binary tree, heap, hashing algorithm, class factory, etc.
I'm not the only person in the field who has made these observations, every time it's brought up, my colleagues agree with me. There's no substitute for a good interview process, and a degree doesn't even come close.
So I guess what I'm saying is that you need to study hard, be ready to answer tough questions, and persevere. You will find a job eventually. If you're smart, have initiative, and don't make mistakes, you'll rise fast.
Are you tied down to the city you're in? If not, consider moving to where the jobs are.
Seek and ye shall find. Those words are as true today as when they were first written. Good luck!
Depends on where you are, and what you want. In the UK - yes. I took on two junior sys admins straight out of school earlier this year. You'll need to either start with a junior position or have experience though. A degree really doesn't prove anything in IT, I value experience and knowledge far more.
College degrees are the new high school diplomas. If you didn't go to college, you're like a backwoods hick whose parents took him out of schooling early so he could chop wood and feed the pigs.
You're half right, college degrees are the new high school diplomas... they are completely worthless the instant you graduate.
As for the hick comment, you realize that the reason kids used to get pulled to do chores was because that's what their families needed to survive, right? Are you seriously making fun of poor, rural families or are you just not creative enough to come up with something better.
I bet you spent so much time becoming l33t in college that you don't even know how ignorant and offensive you sound to people educated in the real world.
I currently work as a systems architect but spent many years as a sysadmin as well as in other closely related positions.
I never graduated high school.
Yes, it's possible. But those first couple of jobs will be very hard to find. I came into the industry in 2000, when jobs were plentiful. Things have settled now and they're not as crazy as they were. Once your resume is fairly built up though, no one will even mention it.
What I would do is ensure that you have other things to put on your resume (as I did), such as open source project work, etc. If you don't have the work experience, you can at least show a strong drive and initiative that will make someone see you as a rising star.
Yes, it is very possible. I currently sysadmin three schools without a degree based largely on the fact that I knew enough about server 2003 and Active Directory to do so. Admittedly, yes, in total my job's not highly paid but I enjoy it, and the more time I can spend in the IT industry the more chance I have of 1. keeping my job or 2. getting a better job if I lose my current one.
The best advice I can give is to go out, seek yourself an MCSE/CCNA to prove you're willing to train, get some mildly interesting hobbies (something bizarre, it gets your CV noticed), and then the best place I found to apply for IT positions is in councils....they love new technology and constantly need new techies for someone's pet project.
Sure, it's entirely possible. However, you have to start from the ground up as soon as possible after high school. You'll be doing almost 100% grunt work that any trained monkey can do. Stuff that I personally was doing when I was like thirteen, and I started getting into computers real hardcore fairly late. Also, while you'll find you probably know a hell of a lot more than people who graduated from college, those people will probably get paid more. Your very best bet would be to get some kind of low-level IT job while going to school. Experience is great, formal education is great, but both combined are excellent.
What's life? Life's easy. A quirk of matter. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
Going back a few years so not sure what the market is like these days for new starters, but when i first started looking for a job in IT they required BOTH experience (5 years preferred) and a degree.
However, this was mainly a bag a shit because they rarely could find people with all their requirements and would settle for someone who could demonstrate they knew their stuff.
I took temp work until i got a junior sys admin type roll (mainframe and dumb terminals... man, those were the days), and built up from there. I've worked for some big companies over the years as well as some smaller ones as well.
All without a degree. ;-)
No university degree for me, but I did study Software Engineering at a tertiary level and got a Diploma with merit (meaning a 90% pass or better). From there I spent over a year unemployed looking for work before starting at a small company selling PCs and doing tech support. We had some Netware customers, so I studied for and passed my CNE, then after another year studied for and passed my MCSE for Windows NT4, then have kept this current, my CNE is only up to Netware 5.1 however 8)
Now 15 years later I am a Consultant Engineer working for a NZ owned company, full time contracted to the Parliamentary Service, where I am part of a small team keeping the systems running for the organisation that provides all of the computing systems for the NZ Parliamentary Campus. We look after just under 200 servers, and 1500 clients (if you include all of the other agencies on the campus. I think I'm doing pretty well for "No Degree" 8)
I'm in the same boat as the article poster, in a similar manner.
/.
I couldn't really afford an ivy league 4 year college, and I had to leave community college before my first year was done due to an illness in the family. A few years later I went to a local trade school, that was accredited, in the tech and IT field. I learned a good deal, even though I knew a certain amount already of what they were teaching.
They offered a Associates Degree program you could do, after you graduated, online. This was not covered in your initial tuition cost or factored into any student loans you got, so if you wanted the degree program it would come straight out of your pocket. Long story short, I couldn't afford this program, still can't.
As for certifications, I trained in what they called the C.E.T program (computer electronics technology). Not really IT (that was a different class path) but focused on hardware repair, PC repair, etc basically all the shit you need to be the local tech support in an office or "The Geek Squad". So I could get by with just the A+ and if I really wanted to look good on paper, the Net+. On the plus side, I aced the course that taught you about the A+ cert, so I got a voucher for one-free attempt at taking the test (it's like what, $150-200 normally?) Needless to say I still have the voucher. Why? Well the A+ textbook they gave us to study is a huge book, and as the professor explained not all the stuff we covered in class and other classes would be on the A+. For example we stuck with Windows 2000 mainly as the OS of learning. We never covered XP, Server, etc which were the big thing at the time (2003-2004). So I never took the test. If I failed, I'm out the one and only free voucher. If I fail and attempt it later, that's money out of my pocket. Money I don't have, at all.
So after I graduate I got six months to find a job before I gotta start paying student loans back. The school had a job placement option which was practically guaranteed. They never found me a job. I looked myself. Locally all places want a degree, or 3-5 years experience even on Entry Level jobs.
4 years later I'm still unemployed, and my student loans that were $3,500 I owed in summer of 2003, are now over $15,000 due to interest rate and non payment.
Yea if it were bad enough a normal person would break down and take a shit job at Walmart or your local McDonalds. Sadly I am not able to stand on my feet for more than an hour or so without getting extreme pain in my lower back, ankles and feet. Not just pain that makes you think "damn this is sore, but I gotta tough it out for 8 hours then go home". It's pain that is like "holy fuck, if I don't sit down in a minute I feel like my bones in my feet are going to shatter". (Let's not get into seeing a doctor, that's something for a whole other discussion).
So while I could easily work say, an office IT/tech job where I'm not on my feet for 8 hours minus a lunch break, I can't fill store shelves at Walmart, even part time, without the absolute need to sit down and rest every hour or so.
Luckily I have family to fall back on, other wise I'd be homeless, starving and not posting on
I knew going in, degrees matter. Sure they don't really mean squat in the "real world" but when it comes to a job, the more good stuff you have about you on paper, matters. Sadly, I just could not afford to get a degree. Couldn't pay for it out of my pocket and couldn't get any more student loans at the time (long before my dues went from 3k to 15k).
Get a degree if you can. It's a hassle, it's just a piece of paper, but that piece of paper can make the difference between you saying "So, your cd rom drive is acting up?" and "Would you like fries with that?"
Aw Frell this
Of course you can. It's just that the likelihood of it happening is extremely low.
The clincher is that the allegedly self-educated person is almost never going to be aware of what they don't know. They'll believe that they have a "proper understanding of computers" when actually they have a very narrow and even a flawed one.
Educating yourself is fine and dandy, but it has its limits, and in an area as diverse and colossal as CompSci, those limits are pretty severe. Universities cherry-pick the massive theoretical base very effectively.
What's more, self-education never gives you the breadth of background of a college/uni course --- at best it can give you deep vocational training in some narrow aspects, and years of experience can make you a useful practitioner too. But you still may be making less informed design decisions compared to a good graduate because you're very likely to lack the breadth and theoretical basis upon which to make your judgments.
Plus, it would take forever to replicate a university course at home. I'd estimate that a good 10 years of really dedicated home study would be required to match 3 years at uni in CompSci ... and with all the distractions at home, those 10 years might turn into "never".
IT is all about the push of information throughout a company. Independent certifications are the only recourse unless you can show a firm understanding of the needs the corporation is seeking to fullfil. It is completely possible without degree ', ', and then again most people with degrees are as only functional as the education they received when they showed up for class.
With that in mind, I have not seen an overall implicit change based on my studies of a university system which promotes true informational technological changes that are desired by the faculty in the sense that implimentation is completely deficient in providing access on the level that is bias free.
While I have uncovered a desire for everyone to have full understanding of the informational systems available to them. It is typically that those who desire the information systems who truly communicate incorrectly with those who are capable of implementational research.
It is a situation which is close to a paradigm shift in the aspect of understanding when and who is capable of providing services needed for any corporation on a communicative basis as opposed to a "I sat through 4+ years of repetition to get a peice of paper with my name on it," therefore I understand more about those that have not.
It depends, of course, but I think that in IT it is not really necessary. I don't have, for example, and I am working for the biggest telco in my country, in the most important division.
There are many skilled people with real experience out there that do not have university degree and I think this is what really matters to do your job properly - skill and experience.
If you're applying to a large corporation, you can pretty much forget even a help-desk job without an associate's or greater. But if you're willing to work your way up at a small- or medium-sized enterprise (SME) -- broadly defined as having 500 or fewer employees -- then you should be OK. Plus, working at a smaller firm will give you the opportunity to wear several hats and get a broader base of experience, where you'd probably be typecast at a larger place. :)
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
I was 39 and had never turned on a computer, well x86 anyway (good ol' C64, err no actually Vic20), then I got an x86(DOSonly) and played for a year and even eventually loaded Window 3.11; wrote some programs and ferked around with it. revamped my CV to include all sorts of previous jobs into a computer related jobs including 4 years at a business that didn't even exist.Managed to get on a six week IT job ready scheme. Had been unemployed a while and was government sponsored. this got me an intership at a Uni doing PC repairs and looking after some student labs. The next job required MAC and PC/Windows which by then I had, plus I had to have some UNIX. Read UNIX for dummies and got the job as a Sys Admin at another Uni. 18 months and some more experience later I was being poached by another faculty. I learned quick and was good at the job.
For ten years since then I have progressively worked above my knowledge and usually knew what I said I had to get the job by the time I left. Been a little stressful at times. Now I do Change Management and run some projects. Again working above what I really know but got so used to it that it's second nature now and sometimes I forget I am bull$hitting.
All this helps as I sold used cars once and in fact ran a car yard before I was twenty. Bottom line, can be done and don't let degree people blow you. They mostly know stuff they don't need to and to be frank some of them are the most useless IT people.
Industry certs help with bosses but again I know so many useless people who have those as well.
Good luck and give it a go if you think you can do it.
How, praytell, do you get stuck at a phone support company? I realize there's not much moving UP, but can't you just look around for another job and simply leave?
College degrees are the new high school diplomas. If you didn't go to college, you're like a backwoods hick whose parents took him out of schooling early so he could chop wood and feed the pigs.
You're half right, college degrees are the new high school diplomas... they are completely worthless the instant you graduate.
As for the hick comment, you realize that the reason kids used to get pulled to do chores was because that's what their families needed to survive, right? Are you seriously making fun of poor, rural families or are you just not creative enough to come up with something better.
I bet you spent so much time becoming l33t in college that you don't even know how ignorant and offensive you sound to people educated in the real world.
Nice generality that isn't remotely correct. The value of the bachelor's degree depends on the choice of degree.
All Applied Sciences [Physics, Mathematics, Engineering, Chemistry, et.al] are highly valuable.
What companies would truly prefer are those highly technical backgrounds with natural self-motivators who also have innate marketability for themselves and their prospective employer. [especially for their prospective employer]
The one area that a University degree offers you over a straight up job is a wide spectrum of social networking contacts. You either see that, leverage it and build upon it or you don't. That part doesn't take a degree.
If you live near any higher education institutions I'd suggest socializing within those circles while you're working your way up. Go work for a University and you can get a massive discount on the cost of classes. That will help you figure out and continue building contacts. Don't plan on making it in 5 years, but build upon a goal for 10 to 15 years down the line.
No. I have seen a lot of sys admins who did not have a degree. One told me he used to work in collecting scrap iron before he started working 'in computers'. He was one of the highly regarded people in the team. At the company i am currently working for, i know a developer who is a physics student drop out. So no. But I don't know how they did it.
Liar.
I've been interviewed by Google, and they do not require you to have a university degree.
I've been lurking on Slashdot for years too, and I registered an account to answer your question (without being an anonymous coward). The answer is absolutely yes. Here's the rub - you have to be bright/intelligent/good at what you do. Take a lower, entry level job, do a great job (volunteer for projects, find ways to improve process/documentation etc - without stepping on toes), and you'll rise. Talent gets noticed. I've been hugely successful, without a high school diploma, let alone a degree. I keep a very open mind when hiring (for my team) and I've been impressed by people without a lot of formal education, and very unimpressed with people who have degrees and certs falling out their... Of course the opposite holds true as well, my point is that intelligence and enthusiasm will win every time.
Companies are concerned with getting the job done, they just ask for a degree because they can. Get a certification, its easy and not expensive. Get a low paid job. Lie about your experience. That will get you a job. Now, if you want to be successful, learn to love your job, don't stop studying at home. If you don't, you may end up hating it because of how poor are the quality standards of most companies.
I have no degree still and had no certs when I started off. I started out at $32,500, ten years later I have a few certs, MCSE, RHCT (expired) and VCP, but I don't think those are that important and I make over $85,000. I haven't had to apply for a job since my first one and when I moved to a new state (and I tend to move every 18 months because I get bored), rather I get offers from people I meet in bookstores, on the job, etc. I prefer statups, but have worked for universities, consultants and even myself. I don't think a degree is what matters, rather problem solving, along with depth and breath of knowledge, hard work, ability to communicate (I cannot write worth shit, but I can use clear examples to common users and CEOs). Depth in an area can make you more cash so long as that skill is in demand, but breath is a key to being about to deal with whatever comes your way and find/take good jobs. For me I knew Windows NT back in that day, but I made sure to learn 2000 by playing with betas. I then learned Exchange, recently I have even picked up SharePoint (which is stupid, but there are lots of SharePoint jobs out there). I also learned Linux, ESX, and Cisco along the way. Breath baby. If you ask me some people who do really well in school suck at life. Other people who do really well at life suck as school. I was OK in school, but just found what I was learning in college lecture too boring while the Redhat 5.1 I was installing from a friend and a friend to be incredibly challenging and interesting and fun and MORE educational. At some point I realized, I was fighting to put things into my head because that is what the class outline said I was supposed to do. It was stressful, it was hard for me, I felt like crap, I could not focus, it sucked. Then I just said "OK, trying to say I will study X today is not working", so I decided, let me just try to put whatever feels right, so I would start putting in Y and Q and then parts of X and more Q and more X and eventually I knew all the stuff I was supposed to learn in class. I just it had to go in different ways, sometimes just shooting shit with friends, mainly messing with stuff late at night, lots of sweat, many many times with books, but not strait reads, chap here and chap there. Once I realized I could learn faster then other people, only I could not control what I learned, I realized, doesn't matter, just get it in there, it will be useful at some point. And I started working and I worked my way up. I think college for good sys admins my eventually fade (at least I hope so) and that it will be replaced with apprenticeship and real world type learning. College structure fails on number of levels, first it doesn't fit ADHD type admins, second it being structured based on cutting edge stuff means it is outdated by the time the class starts. It is good for background and fundamentals to a small extent, but so are google groups and wikis.
I actually *have* an IT degree and I can't even get a simple help desk job with it. Graduated with a bachelors degree in 2006 and I'm still loading trailers in a warehouse for a living.
I do see your point and I do agree with it. Which is why I said it takes more dedication and willingness then the average person has. Just to clarify I'm not saying I'm one of those people as I am actively pursuing a degree.
My point is a college degree doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
Anyone who claims that you need a degree has their head firmly lodged up their arse. I'm a J2EE consultant without a degree of any kind. Sure, it took me a little while to find a job, but I managed in the end. Once I was hired, I was offered to take certification exams (paid for by the company) so I can prove my know-how to customers.
Being intelligent helps, of course.
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm.
Unless my math is off, you started during the dotcom years when they were looking for talent under every rock they could find, and it was generally accepted that web developers could be very young as the web wasn't many years old. There's always ways for the entrepreneuring individual, but I think you'll agree the market looks very different today.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
As someone who's tried this... not a prayer in hell.
If you have a bunch of certs (MSCE, A+, etc) you might have a shot, but even if you land something with those, you won't like the pay. They assume that since you're "underqualified", they can get away with paying you a pittance if they do hire you.
The job market for anyone without a degree (even a community college two year) is fucking miserable these days.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
Correct. I started my first gig about 6-8 months before the dot com implosion. It was no fun being told it was my mentor's last day, and I'd be assuming his position. Luckily, everything worked out for the best (he went on to get his CCIE and get a really sweet gig at a law firm), and we're good friends to this day.
Starting right into sysadmin? Unlikely! Build up experience via other roles to get a sysadmin position? Absolutely! Sysadmin, programmer, most things related to computers. I've worked as a sysadmin at some nice places and now work as a programmer. Making about 60k USD this year without an education as a developer and I have no certifications or degrees I just have experience on my resume and to be honest I think I score my main points on the interview. Showing that you have the ability to learn and adapt and that you are aware of your weaknesses is usually a good sellingpoint even with weak credentials (Cert/education).
Best of luck =)
Hey, here is an idea.. Move to Macedonia, I am 100% sure you will find a job (seek for Macedonia on Google map if you don't know where that is :))
Sorry for posting as Anonymous Coward. :)
Employers have a tendency to list in their ads their dream candidate, which is often far more restrictive than what they are actually willing to accept.
Sometimes this can be pretty funny. I saw a place once advertising in the LA Times for people with 5+ years of experience with Unix System V. The problem was that at the time, System V had only been available outside of AT&T for under a year. The only people with 5+ years of System V experience were its developers, at AT&T. Even if they were looking for jobs, they probably weren't looking in the LA Times.
I had a period once where I was out of work for something like six months. Right at the start, I saw a job that I seemed to be a good match for, except they said a Master's degree was a requirement, and I only have a Bachelor's. So I did not apply.
Six months later, they were still looking, and the head hunter I was then using sent my resume. Guess what? I got the job, and performed spectacularly. If the company had advertised more realistic requirements, they would have had me six months earlier, and without having to pay several thousand dollars to the head hunter.
I taught laptop repair for a major company with a mere GED in my possession.
Having done it since I was a kid and having had working references helps out.
It's mostly about the network of people you establish.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I am a Senior Service Engineer at Yahoo!.
I work on Y! Buzz (buzz.yahoo.com), the new Y! Front Page (m.www.yahoo.com), and My Yahoo! (my.yahoo.com).
I don't have a degree.
"To err is human, to forgive is simply not my policy." --root
I'm currently 21, living in the UK and working as a Systems and Database Administrator with no University Degree. When I left college at 18 with an A-Level in Computing I went straight in to a Systems Analyst position for a firm that I had done a little freelance work for before. About a year ago, I moved into my current sysadmin position and in January i'm due to start a new position in Computer Forensics. Anything is possible!
We just hired someone for a sysadmin position without a degree. Smart kid, was being wasted in another department, knows his linux and windows servers so why not?
As long as you have some experience to show for it, I believe it is possible. Of course it helps if you change areas internally (as it was the case) or get a recommendation.
g'luck.
I have an IT job Analyst Programmer and I do not have a degree in IT.
I have been in the role for 4 years.
I started as a tester and worked my way up from there. You just need an opportunity and to show you can do the job well.
Persevere and you will get a role if you look and try hard enough
Although a lot depends on your country (Im in the UK, I've heard its a lot harder in the US) and although I started over 10 years ago, when there were a lot less techies to go around, it is quite possible to get a good job, but you need to start at the bottom.
I left school at 16 with no qualifications, and started by getting a temp job in an IT company (EDS, as it happens) doing general office work, and was lucky to impress my boss with an interest in IT, from there I transferred into the desktop support team, and then went to another job doing desktop repair. From there, I got lucky and got a trainee Unix admin job at my local ISP.. BTW, these guys are a goldmine for learning *nix/networks, etc, and I would recommend applying to your local ISP from the off, if its a small-medium outfit, they are more likely to hire someone with enthusiam, although the pay will probably suck. After a couple of years of unix under my belt, I was set. Since then, I've worked for major corporates, and earned upwards of £100k a year for contract work.
However, a friend of mine took the university route, and has done very well out of it and a lot easier than I did. So I guess the upshot it yes, you can do it, but its easier with a degree..
As an interesting aside, my friends experience has mostly been very commercial, whereas mine has been mostly Open Source. I wonder if theres more than a coincidence there..?
I currently work as a sysadmin for a rather large company taking care of 4 sites. When I applied for the job I basically said you have 2 kinds of IT people in the world. A guy like me that has been around computers his entire life and lives for them with lots of experience and a bookworm who gets great marks in school but does not understand computers. In the real world they don't have the mind set for it and fail. I ended up with the job and found out the 2 previous people before me both had degree's and sucked bad because they just didn't have the problem solving mind set. Been with the company now for 3 years.
Huzur
I work as a Critical Response Engineer for EMC and I can vouch that it is possible to get a good computer job in IT without having a degree. The key thing is though that you will still have to prove yourself and that is likely to mean starting at the bottom somewhere. I started working help desks at IBM and gradually working my up from job to job so don't expect to just walk in on a good job :)
I was working as a musician before I decided to settle down and "grow up". I had only a diploma in music as a qualification. I have now worked my way up to Senior Developer with a great little company. I think that from my experience some companies are impressed by people who are self taught. It shows you have discipline to sit and learn unaided. My experience of developers who are straight out of University is that they may know lots of theory but ask them to complete a real world job quickly and they struggle.
Oh, uh, good question. Now technically speaking, uhh, let's say, put me down as a... 'Whatever'?
There's no way you need a degree. You may well have to start in a lower paid position but in 3 years you'll have something that the other uni applicants wont have; work experience.
Notice how a lot of the job adverts say must have a degree and 3 years work experience - even if you do get a degree you're still gonna be in a similar position!
In my experience after 3 years work companies haven't been interested in my qualifications only in what I worked on previously.
Thats not to say that training isn't a good idea - take any courses you can, read books, lots of books. Try things out, get a network working at home, script, code find out everything you can. If you need the extra credibility take some of the certified exams (If you're pretty competent you can usually read a book or two to pass and the exam will cost about £100 in a testing centre).
As someone who works for a very large multi-national corporation, i've noticed the following trends:
Large companies that have rigourous HR involvement almost always require some sort of Higher Ed or preferably degree, and not always because they think it will mean a better employee, it's just that it makes the interview process a lot easier for them, and helps them pre-select candidates that then move to dealing directly with the boss of the particular department that's hiring. When HR is involved, quite often they are a filter. This can be a complete roadblock in some cases.
Motivation and attitude count for everything, everything!, I couldn't stress this enough!
Smaller and even larger companies that more or less restrict HR involvment during the selection process will generally be a lot more receptive to skills and experience, especially if the person interviewing is also technically minded and you can demonstrate your keenness, and ability to work as productive member of a team. If your being interviewed by the actual department hiring, you stand a much better chance, as they aren't interested in dotting i's and checking boxes like HR, they just want results, which means if your experience or qualifications are a bit lacking, you have a chance to make up for that by exhibiting motivation and a willingness to learn on your own, (on your own is important).
Degrees, Batchelors, CCNA, etc, don't really matter quite to the extent that some people imply, while they are very valuable, and will certainly help get past early interview stages, and while a lack of them can be an obvious detriment, quite often being able to show continous studies even in various unrelated fields (myself electronics initially!) can really help open a door, but you might need to push it home as to what you can bring to the role and offer as value for the company.
I originally started out as a one day a week casual and over a period of 5 years ended up looking after the infrastructure for a number of departments, before moving through various roles including network engineer, senior sys admin, all within the same company. I'm now responsible for several ESX clusters, around 100 servers, as well as numerous other projects and support for within our own business unit as well as quite a few others. I achieved all this through sheer hard work, never complaining at the long hours, the stressful load, all the while training myself as most times we were too busy working on projects to take time off for training. Management notice these things and a good company will reward you well for it. Several others at work (who even started before me) have never advanced in the last ten years from when they first started, but that is entirely because of their attitude, management want people who are flexible, committed, and above all, capable.
Job != career. Google has entry-level jobs in the server rooms, and apart from that Google has careers for those with the experience, education and drive to take the company to new places.
Thirded! I, for one, am a Philosophy student, but a Linux/FLOSS hobbyist for a few years (had - and administered - my own home Debian server during most of those). Two years ago I got a job as a sysadmin at a small R&D lab at Warsaw University of Technology (yes, I still work there). Caveat 1: they've been looking for a student, degree in IT was not listed as a requirement. Caveat 2: I live in Poland, so YMMV.
If you're already experienced and have a good job in IT without a degree, great!
However, I've interviewed and worked with people with and without degrees. It may not be the case later on in your career, but early on you can tell the difference a mile away.
I have found that those with degrees have much greater ability to pick things up under their own steam, and the theoretical knowledge is more helpful than you'd imagine because it means that you spend less time guessing what a problem is and more time being able to work it out properly.
It may be tempting in the current economy to get a job and so avoid all the debt that accompanies a degree - but the recession won't last forever, and while it's going on you'll be competing for work with a lot of people with far greater qualifications who may well be prepared to drop their salary expectations just to get food on the table. To my thinking, sitting out a recession in college is a very smart move. You're not seriously looking for work in your chosen profession at a time where there is little work to be found, and with any luck the economy will be recovering when you graduate and you'll find a job that much more easily.
sure you can get in without a degree. i've been a solaris operator/tape monkey, then support engineer, then Unix SA in the 4 years since i dropped out of the first year of unversity.
to be honest, my course was a waste of time, and some professors really did subscribe to the "those who can't, teach." with some of them not really connected to the real world having been in academia for so long.
pretty much all companies i've worked for have valued expirience over school/university qualifications. industry qualifications being valued most of all.
except microsoft certifications.... those it seems are generally regarded as things you get free with your breakfast cereal, as almost every IT monkey has a list of useless MCSE's as long as your arm.
one company i worked for (veritas, before it got eaten by symantec) even hired an ex-hotel manager with no previous I.T. skills to join one of the teams. they put him through the mill learning everything from "this is a computer" to doing his Sun solaris SA's, and learning their product line. 6 months he was ready and an effective BOFH. his only skill he brought in was that he was a fluent German speaker. so, one idea is to learn a 2nd or 3rd language if you want to stand out skill wise in IT.
TBH, most SA's aren't SA's straight out of University, unless it is their own startup, or daddy's company. they still have to work their way up the ladder, and show some affinity with being an SA.
dropping out of year one just put me three to five years ahead of those that actually completed their degree course.
just be prepeared to start at the bottom and work your way up if you have to.
going to Uni isn't garanteed to land you the perfect job as soon as to set foot outside of student halls. you just gotta fight a little harder to get your foot on the ladder.
anyway, thats where i'm comming from, and my general expirience...
Who's gonna hire you if you're the kind of person who did phone support?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
If you don't have a degree then you really need to get trained and experience within a company. A move to another company will put you back at square one.
As with every other profession, having a degree or not is quite decoupled from being good at your profession or not. However, we IT people still have one huge advantage: Information Technology is advancing so fast, it is almost easyer being up to date without a degree. I studied a semester of CS a year ago. We were wasting our time learning with tools from the early 90ies, including a Windows 95 diagramm tool that nobody in the real world would ever use nowadays.
The speedy advancement in IT and the large gap it often causes between academic eduzcation and reality are large enough for even the one or other HR deptartment to notice that a degree in IT doesn't really matter that much.
If you are *interested* in studying CS (including Math 1 through 4 and basic economy) and you are young enough to do it (read: haven't started a career yet), then do it. If you don't know if you'll like it, try it out. Do a semester and then take it from there. Either drop out or pull through and specialize. Do not study CS simply for a career opportunity.
If you are positive that you mostly hate studying CS or racking up the dept for doing it, then don't do it. Focus on the IT field you're interested in, get some internships and small projects and join an OSS project. Your initial salary will be lower at the begining of your career, but listening to my team lead ragging about his tour de fource to a MSC in CS (during a time in which the first degree was still free in Germany) lets me suspect you'll have more fun getting there.
I have a diploma in performing arts (ergo: completely unrelated) 22 years of computing and programming experience and have gotten my current job based on my skills and not a degree. It is possible and happens far more often than in other, more entrenched fields.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I dropped out of my degree course after a year. I am currently working for an extremely large multinational in their software testing factory. My job also requires that I know the C programming, so to that end work is letting me re-learn it on their time. I echo the sentiment that it isn't what qualifications you have it is the knowledge you have and how you apply that knowledge. I am not saying that having a CS degree won't help you because it will. However there are a lot of people coming out of University with degrees in CS and Software Eng that are working McDonalds. Start at the bottom of the ladder and don't miss rungs else you might find yourself falling back to the floor again. Good luck on finding that elusive job. It is out there!
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flamebait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
i am currently in a quite decent job, as a web developer, i have no degree at all. i found it difficult at first to get a job without experiance, but even with a degree, that would have been the same, as everyone was looking for commercial experiance.
once i got a years commercial experiance, i found it so simple to get a better job, and then into the job i am in now it was unreal.
all you need is commercial experiance, or to say you have. and your goood.
portfolio
I would comment that there are 3 essentials for any profession, including IT. They are; 1) Skill, 2) Reputation, 3) Education. If you are lacking in any of these, then eventually you will "hit a ceiling" with your chosen career. We have all seen folks that have two, but not all three of these. Examples: - a person has the highest of skills and works great with others (reputation), but lacks a degree. They will always be the last person hired, and usually the first person let go from a company. - a person can have a degree, but lack skills, although they are well liked by others. They fail from lack of ability. - a person can have a degree and skills, but be such a miserable jerk that no one wants to work with them. They are also eventually let go from the high cost of the personal problems they cause at work. I recommend you sign up for school and at least put on your resume "currently enrolled in "xx" school, working toward a degree in Computer Sci.
I work for Tibra Capital as a software architect, pretty much everyone here except 2 or 3 people don't have degrees, I myself am an architect with 2 years experience working on market making systems that handle billions of dollars a day, we really don't consider degrees to mean much, we just like people to show up to work on a daily basis and to put in a good 8hours before they head-off, btw if you're in the sydney area we're hiring so feel free to send your resume to us. http://www.tibra.com.au/
You will get 150K answers to this. The short of it is, speaking as someone who has been in the biz for 20 years, the degree only matters if you are being hired by someone who has one.
And that's all that needs to be said about it.
I didn't read the list of replies. The follow is all my personal experience. In my senior year of high school I was hired by the BOE as a student worker doing IT. From there the next IT job I got was for a consulting firm doing general tech/setup/cabling/etc.. From there I was hired as an admin for a medical office who was a previous client of the consulting firm. I am currently a co-sys admin for a company that does IT and telecom, and am in a position to eventually run the IT side. We do installs, admin, tech support, cabling etc.. I will say that I have, however, been extremely lucky. The BOE job was on a recommendation of a teacher (who was the tech guy at that school) who saw that I knew PCs and got me in. The consulting firm job was from a chance encounter while I was working retail (at radioshack) discussing VPN to the owner. The admin position at the medical firm was because they knew me from the consulting firm and knew I could handle it. Finally, the current position was a lucky encounter with the IT admin (and partner) of the company. I had just started my own business doing IT, and was looking at taking a client in a building where he was doing IT for another company. I'm 27, and had one year of college. It IS entirely possible to get a good IT job, and a position such as sysadmin without a degree, it just takes some luck, skills, knowledge, and a few connections.
I am one of those people who work an IT job without a degree. My duties include normal help desk stuff for our office of about 30 workers, otherwise I am working on our new dispatching client which is written in Java. I have now been a full-time Java programmer for a little over a year. I doubt I could get hired at another company at this point, possibly after 3-5 years experience.
The way I came about my position was from being hired from within the company. Admittedly I was low balled on pay but that is being fixed. Starting pay was about $23k a year, although then I was just doing web developing and help desk. Its been about two years since then and I make about $25k a year now all hourly. In a month or two I'll be getting promoted to making some where around $35k. Personally I think that's pretty damn good for being a high-school drop out.
The point to keep in mind is I work in a rather unique place. We are a worker owned and operated cooperative under a democratic structure. This is what kept me despite the low pay. I've also served on the Board of Directors and several committees.
The story of my father:
My father on the other hand gave a go at two-year college, but then I happened so he had to drop out and get a real job. The real job turned out to be a pascal programmer. From there he moved up the ranks and jobs and now works for the local four-year university.
Given all of that I still plan to go to college, but instead of comp sci I was going to go electrical engineer.
So lesson learned unless you like getting low balled and otherwise taken advantage of, get your degree. Not that will guarantee that doesn't happen.
IMAGE VERIFICATION IS EVIL!
It is important to understand that IT professionals are distinctly different from computer scientists (although even the latter do not know the difference these days). One applies what is yielded from the work of the other (figure out who's who). For instance, an IT professional may know how to implement a netfilter traffic policing scheme based on independent research (even through a simple glance at the man pages) and/or knowledge garnered through professional studies. However, he/she will not know the intricate mathematics that ensure performance levels or robustness. They may not even know how to write userspace components for netfilter. Yet, they can serve as a network security 'specialist' in an organization. The difference between IT professionals and computer scientists need to be recognized, understood and respected. The lack of this respect has led many organizations to hire IT professionals where they should be looking for computer scientists. This is a problem. It is a problem that will lead to both the demise of an employment market as well as cutting edge ventures in computing. IT professionals should stop deluding themselves into thinking that they are computer scientists. Just because one knows how to code in C# doesn't mean he/she has Donald Knuth's insights (or that of Ray Kurzweil, Michael Abrash, Gordon Moore, Leonard Adleman, Bill Joy, etc)
The professions use entry qualifications to maintain verified high standards. In many cases it is illegal to practice without passing the examinations. Even the majority of lower level "trades" have recognised and verifiable entry requirements.
Clearly entry examinations raise the bar and decrease the number of people able and willing to participate. This directly affects the supply of professionals and results in much higher salary levels than would be the case if no such barrier existed.
The computing business is different, no formal qualifications are mandated in order to work in the field.
This is highly advantageous to hiring companies since it serves to keep compensation levels at a much lower price point.
Many companies recognize that the inconvenience of applicant testing outweighs the significant financial advantage of lower wages.
When you consider your options regarding academic qualifications remember that employers have a strong incentive to maintain the status quo and to favor unqualified candidates.
For the past 9 years I've worked as the Technology Coordinator for a small all-girls school in PA. I had no degree (only a few certs), but I was hired for my experience in networking. The school was using teachers to do the job (poorly) previously. I presented myself well at the interviews and even gave them a prepared list of things that needed the most help on the second interview - that really impressed them!
I took a big drop in salary, but I live on campus for free, eat free, and have been able to save money as well. I was able to weather the dot-com crash, where I watched every single one of my friends in this business lose their jobs, their businesses, or worse. In short, I'm needed here no matter what the economy does - as long as we have students of course!
The best thing about this job is that, for the most part, the people are terrific to work with and everyday I see the improvements to the school that I was responsible for.
It's an unusual situation, and probably not for everyone, but for me it was ideal.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
I did it.
I'd have to say this depends on who's looking for a job and what country your looking for a job in. There's nations like Belgium where its returning that instead of paper credentials being interviewed and evaluated, the person is. I have no official degree, although I do either have licences or had formal training from Microsoft, Cisco, Lucent, Avaya, Bay, Remedy and a crapload of others. Although I have those credentials, I also have one major disadvantage compared to most of the other people, in being that I've been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. And with that have some major quirks and minor annoyances. But turns out my caracter and personality, in combination with a massive IQ (yeah get over it, I'm officially handicapted, so I'm allowed to brag about something nature DID give me) and the lucky fact that my Aspergers Induced limited interrests field is wholly focussed on IT and datacommunications. So, to summarize, If you make sure you got some training and licences to show of, so that you can get your foot in the door, and then are able to convince your skills are up to spec, a degree isn't needed. If you don't have training and even if you do, can't make it so that people know your know your shit by just talking to you, don't even bother. I guess thats one other advantage for me. Being a geek seems to ooze from my very being and when I come before someone they only need a minute to know I know my shit.
First you need to know if you have an aptitude for it, are you better than some people you work with? half the people? or 90% of the people you work with? You'll need to be good, there's no point pursuing this course if you're not any good.
Start low and work your way up, you'll find out soon how good you are. Start on a helpdesk, and don't spend too long there. Then move on to desktop support and/or sys admin work. From there the world is your oyster (networks/dev/management) - I've pursued this course and am now a developer after 7 years of this path. I'm not great with the math side of it, but I have a colleague we call 'rainman' who does all the deep math while I just stick to good architecture and design principles. Rainman can't communicate for crap, so that's where I come in, I'm the buffer between the genius and the rest of the world. You don't need a degree for that.
If you've got a good attitude and an aptitude for technology/programming/software/problems you'll go further and earn more than most of the negative 'genius' posters on this thread, why? Because you can still have a positive social attitude, and to a profitable forward thinking company that's worth 3 brilliant socially inept techies, all of whom who will need to be lead by someone with good social skills.
I managed it ;)
Just make sure that you don't overstate your actual abilities (which such a piece of paper is supposed to prove you have... Yeah right)
All the jobs I've had or applied for say degree or equivalent, I have the latter, now on about £27k-$41k Experience counts in it I believe?
I have several friends, peers and colleagues that work in the sysadmin/networking field that do not have degrees (a couple do not even have high school diplomas), and they all do quite well for themselves as far as salaries go.
Like many other people, I view IT as more of a trade. I would much rather hire the person who started working right out of high school with 4 years of experience under his belt than the newly minted BSc with none. Of course, it would all come down to the technical interview, but the trend that I have noticed is that those without the degrees tend to be more "self starters" and capable of learning and researching on their own.
Now don't get me wrong, a degree doesn't hurt. It will definitely open up many doors for you, but if you are seriously looking to get into IT, experience trumps all. Hard work, determination, initiative... these are all the keys to a successful career in IT, imo.
As for myself, I've never had any formal CS or IT training, nor do I have a college degree. Everything I knew, I learned from a book that I bought so I could build a computer to play Doom with on a LAN. After getting out of the Marines in 2001, I took my meager Doom knowledge and landed myself an entry level help desk position making $12/hour. Now, I'm a Network Architect making over 6 figures a year and I work from home 95% of the time. I still don't have a degree, but now I'm back in school, and I have the time and money to get a degree in a subject that I'm actually interested in and not having to worry about making money with it to put food on the table.
But you damn well better have your certifications in line, and some experience under your belt. I really dont get where this idea of EVERY job needs a degree to function came from. I would easily say that a good 60% of jobs out there SHOULD be done by people without higher ed experience. Leave higher end for who it matters for, science/math geeks, buisness jerks, and fine arts. IT is a trade job for all purposes, I know a lot of IT people who really had that designation but its true, as a person WITH a degree in technology and currently in IT, I see no reason to surgar coat the simple fact that we are 21 century plumbers and electricians.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Any company worth their salt will look past qualifications and degrees if you have relevant experience. That, and having a checkable, demonstrable work history, commercial or not, helps.
I earn £22k/y, started doing sysadmin three years ago for -half- that wage in a junior position (was 18 at the time and desperate for a job). I don't hold a degree, in fact the only certifications to my name are 3 MCPs and a CompTIA Linux+. It's VERY possible, but you have to be determined, have balls of steel and be willing to put up with a lot of doors being slammed in your face.
If you live in the United States, you need a degree.
If you live in Europe, for the most part, you don't for an IT job, but you will for a software development job. "IT" is really a trade like plumbing. You don't need a degree to pull cat5 cables, fix broken printers, or write shell scripts to automate various repetitive jobs, just intelligence and experience.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
In the long term a trend will be that more sysadmin positions will be open to those without degrees, but still limited. The FLSA has set descriptions of Exempt/NonExempt work tasks. Sysadmin is basically a non exempt job until you get into sys admin leadership positions or higher levels of experience and knowledge. Most people with degrees would not want a non-exempt job. [current economic times will override this]. Your best bet is to get into the door and start with hardware support or helpdesk.
Depends on the company you do phone support with. If its scripted, then yeah, you will learn very, very little. I currently work in an unscripted phone support dept, looking after clients that contract us to care for their servers and desktop kit. For some clients we essentially provide a full sys-admin service, all given by myself and the other guys on the phones. This said, it is a PITA to get out of, I've been doing it for three and a bit years now and am having a hard time finding something to move onto from here.
I worked in the IT field for 8 years before moving. When looking for a job after moving, I was willing to take a wide variety. I applied for a front-line tech support position, and was denied to be considered because I didn't have a degree in CS. I had done support my first year out of college (I got a non-technical degree). I since moved on to other things, had my MCSE and CCNA and such at the time. And with 8 years experience and an MCSE, the HR department refused to forward on the application to the hiring department because it didn't meet the minimum requirements. That's why it's required. So many places will not even consider you without it, and there's nothing you could do to change their minds because the people making the initial filtering selections have no idea what is required for the position, nor what the words on a resume mean.
However, I'm still working in IT 5+ years after that, and have been working in a variety of fields (with specific expertise that well exceeds any that can be gained in college). I went back and got an MBA as well, so whenever I get tired of working for a living, I can move into management (I've had management-level positions and supervised people, but have avoided taking the actual management positions because that's not my personal preference now). If that ever occurs, I will have worked my way up from the begining ($20k per year crap support job) through varying technical positions into management wihout ever having a degree in anything technical. So it isn't necessary to succeed. However, it is quite hard to take that path, because even now when I look at positions, people seem to expect a technical degree.
Learn to love Alaska
I was amazed at first by the negative attitude of most posts here. But then, I am in Silicon Valley and the mileage of those elsewhere probably varies...
I've known many sysadmins with no degree (indeed I WAS one of them until I graduated earlier this year). In many ways, Silicon Valley is a meritocracy and having the skill is sufficient qualification for many IT positions. That said, not having a degree definitely makes the candidate less credible and less likely to get pass the first filter (i.e. the HR/recruiting types).
As many have noted, the progression to sysadmin-ness without college means more work--like via phone support or similar in conjunction with classes or certifications (though certifications are never enough on their own). It's very doable, but it may be easier to get an AS through your local community college in something related.
Speaking of, I can't emphasize the community colleges enough. Here in California, they're awesome (and they were none too bad in the Phoenix area where I grew up, either). If you're hitting a brick wall in the search for an IT job in your area, that may be the path of least resistance to bridge the gap.
As for requirements listed on job postings, I tend to take them with a grain of salt. If you think you can do the job, then apply (just don't invest too emotionally and keep looking).
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
I feel am able to comment on this.
Firstly, if you do get a degree it can be useful. If you have the time do it, and you will have fun too.
However, as a network manager (having done my fair share of grunt work on the way) I knew of a person at the local LUG who was looking for a job, without any formal qualifications. I needed help, so I hired him, on a reasonable wage (ie not far off a full permie) and now he is loving it. He is hard working, enthusiastic, and doesn't mind the crappy jobs so much. He is learning on the job.
The thing is, you need to find someone who is looking for you. Thats the issue. It's about building networks, and these networks can open doors that you just couldn't open by yourself. ie If I had not met this guy through the lug, then I wouldn't have offered him a job if he called on the off chance.
Just my two pence worth.
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
However, when the add says something like "a degree will be advantageous" it means IT pro's without degrees could apply and (hopefully) they will be evaluated based on metrics like experience and perhaps some other certifications.
Example: For a Linux sysadmin job, a RHCE certification with some experience could do. But, if this sysadmin has to also run a department or a group of sysadmins, a degree qualified individual would probably have a better change in landing the job.
Personally, I do not have a degree and I work in a Sysadmin/DBA/Developer role. I was lucky - timing was perfect etc. But - the company owns me. I basically can not go outside and perform the same line of work for the salary I get now without a degree. So, in order for me to position myself better (especially in the light of possibly some tough times ahead), I have decided to do a degree from next year. I can just hope I am not too late :-)
Need an ISP in South Africa?
This is just my experience, yours may differ in mileage. I was home schooled and very badly home schooled at that, so f**k off grammar/spelling Nazi. I fallowed this up with a GED and I have interviewed for many sysadmin jobs and I have held 3 sysadmin jobs. Being I don't have a (professional) look, I tend not to get the good jobs. Right now I am very happy as a Datacetner Operations Tech (mmm server monkey) however, I have been a sysadmin and even run my own small hosting company (very small these days). In the first job, I had to work UP to the Systems Admin position in the company, this took me nearly 8 months to just prove my worth(mm night shift) and 2 more months to start moving up the food chain. After you get that first 1yr+ of "Systems Administrator" down, you can then start putting your resume out their and move into a better paying more official sysadmin job. in my case I hunted down a small Hosting provider where I would get crappy pay but be able to move up by proving my self. Find Your Path, Make Your Self Pretty (Professional) and Attack. Mid Range Systems Admin Jobs are 3 Percent Skill, 95 Percent Self Sales and 2 Percent Ass Kissing.
I don't have a degree, and I'm working as a senior C developer and Team Leader at Capgemini.
IMHO, the degree is quite an important step towards making a good career. Making your way up without one is harder, though not impossible.
I was able to make it to this point by starting at a small company and finding some good connections that liked the way I work.
Here in Czech republic there is no problem to get an IT job without a degree. There is big need for programmers. Every day when I travel to school by tram, there are many ads for IT workers. On each there is tat they don't require university degree. But there is the other side of the coin. No degree less money and very low possibility for career developent. You'll remain in team MK30P (mouse, keyboar Ã-- 30 programmers :).
If you are naturally a computer person then a degree is optional for you in your IT career since your experience and skills will speak a lot better as to your ability to do useful work for a company. If you have the knack for computers then you will be able to go a long way just on that alone. Many of today's computer degree programs focus on theoretical knowledge and seem like they are designed for people more interested in the science part of technology such as algorithm design and computational design work and not for systems administration or engineering skills.
If you are looking to be a systems administrator then you really need relevant experience for the systems that you are going to be administrating. That means that if you are going to work with vendor's server operating system you should be an expert on that vendor's desktop system. The skills that you learn hacking away at your desktop dealing with issues leads directly into the role of administrating server operating systems.
One thing that many people scoff at is vendor certifications but I personally feel that they are a good alternative to degree coursework. The certification training teaches you the very specific knowledge required to use and manage vendor hardware and software so that you become familiar with the vendor's design principles, implementation of those principles, installation, management, and troubleshooting of the system that you are being certified in. Many folks look down on certifications since they only think of them as a piece of paper and a title but the training for the certification is the important thing because it gives you very relevant skills for that vendor's product. That training is a lot more useful and relevant to an employer and yourself when working with a specific product in your job because it teaches you how to do things exactly the way that the vendor planned. This is an important thing to know since many vendors use very strange ways of doing simple things. Degree coursework in a college only teaches you the theoretical and this knowledge, while very deep, is far too distant from a particular implementation and it takes a lot to transfer to actual useful knowledge.
I am sure that many people will with disagree with me about the value of certification and recommend a degree program instead but everyone is welcome to their own opinion.
A previous poster on this thread mentioned that systems administration should be an apprenticeship based program versus a computer science degree type program and I wholeheartedly agree. The skills required to deal with daily operations and troubleshooting of computer systems is mostly based on experience and training with a particular implementation more than deep knowledge of generalized theoretical ideology. It is much more valuable to know how a vendor implemented the debugging procedure in a system than to know the basis for a debugging in systems design when you are the one responsible for fixing a problem that is happening right now with a critical production system.
I as an example started as a computer kid upgrading his Tandy in elementary school and playing computer games in high school to end up working as a computer repair guy in a retail store fixing problems with people's personal computers and installing upgrades for them. It was a logical career progression after dropping out of an unchallenging high school program. Do what comes naturally to you and you will always be paid well. The retailer had a requirement for certain number of certified technicians to work in the department so that they could advertise it so the company put me on the track to taking the first desktop hardware certification. I read the certification book and learned a few interesting facts that I never knew about systems then did the test which was not difficult since the practice at the repair shot and study of the materials paid off. I later studied and earned certifications for most of the other equipment that was being repaired there for e
But do need Indian passport.
i Do not have a Degree and ive got a sysadmin job in a decent sized company :)
Not having a degree will not hold you back. Speaking from 20 years experience in the IT industry. But don't expect to jump into that plumb job even if you do have a degree.
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
I've been programming since I was a child (first dabbled on a BBC at around 8). I truly started when I got an Acorn A3000 in BASIC making games for me and my friends to play. It was great! I was always arty as well as math/computer/science in interest, so computers where fertile ground for me. But I'm badly dyslexic (poor audio discrimination and no memory for random sequences). In my middle school I was top in top maths, but in my high school they connected math and english. I was bottom english, and put into middle maths. This was a very frustrating time for me as I was finishing halfway through the lesson getting pretty much everything right, and having to be set more. I pleaded to be moved up but my teacher refused. On the GCSE maths paper I took B was as high as you could get. She said to me and one other, "your my Bs". I did no revision, and sure enough got the B. In case you can't tell it's still a grudge I've not got over. This and other things left a very bitter taste in my mouth about standard education. I left high school and went on to study art at college. I specialized in sculpture and had a great time. I did a lot of stuff on the computer as well as clay. All this time I was still programming odds and sods. I went to university to be part of the first year of a virtual reality design course. It seemed perfect combining the technical and artistic. It was not. I was expecting to come in and be surrounded by people who had gone down the math and computer route that I could learn from. I found I knew more than any, including most of the staff. We had a "professional" 3D animator come in and I wanted to know about skinning and IK, and he hadn't heard of either! When talking about processors our technical lecture thought a Pentium pro was much like a 386. We were set a project for over the summer, to do a multimedia toy, mine ended up with me deciding I was going to write a 3D engine on my RiscPC in C++. After that coming back to second year just wasn't feeding me what I wanted. I became depressed. I dropped out. It was such a weight off my shoulders. I went home and did the factory work I had done for many summers, but while I did that I moved myself to PC/Windows. My parents thought I was in a dream world and there where many arguments. After 6 months I had learnt more C++ and OpenGL, and did a nice looking little demo and got a job in a Dutch multimedia company as a programmer. I've been a professional programmer ever since. I've worked with many who went down the computer science route, some very good, some nothing special. I've worked with a professor of computer science who code was terrible, breathtakingly slow and inelegant. But I still kind of wish I had done computer science as I know there are holes in my knowledge. I'm sure my career would continue just fine without more formalized education, but I feel it should be a channel to quench my thirst. The Open University does do some computer modules, but none of it looks at the level I want. It's all for people who don't know anything already. So education wise, I'm stuck teaching myself as always (Linux and drivers is my current interest). Open source is great for people like me as there is so much to read and learn from, but it's not the same as a good mentor.
You're completely wrong!
If what you say were true (that IT professionals are distinctly different from computer scientists), then it would be possible to find an accurately labeled IT professional who has no knowledge of topics in computer science at all, but who has learned merely by rote which buttons to push to get something to work. That's not an IT professional at all, nor any other kind of professional --- that's the definition of clueless monkey, full stop.
So your "distinctly different" separation is actually false. You seem to be forgetting that "professionalism" implies understanding the basis for your profession, and not just being able to wield its tools. Amateurs do the latter, not professionals.
There are degrees of knowledge of course, and an IT professional will in many cases have less deep knowledge than a CompSci researcher, and less broad knowledge than a professional CompSci educator. But that's just a matter of degree. *All* IT professionals must understand the foundations of their discipline to a good extent, otherwise their chosen label is simply inaccurate, and very harmful to both their employers and their profession.
The clear separation that you see does not exist. Monkeys belong in zoos, and the fact that we often have monkeys in the IT department does not contradict that: they are not IT professionals.
"Professional" means something. It does not mean "Practitioner".
Smaller companies have, in the past, emulated this behavior. However, as time has passed, as a way to gain a competitive edge, more and more have begun to take long, hard looks at un-degreed candidates for a couple of reasons:
The lower pay level is temporary, so don't go thinking that just because you don't have a degree, you're gonna get jizzed for the rest of your life. Non-degreed employees experience an initial loss of income, but over time, likely within 5 or 10 years, the value of experience plus your own ability to negotiate your employment contracts will normalize your income.
Myself, I don't have a degree, and I've held lead developer and system administrator jobs that have paid me competitive rates. I'm now the owner of a small development shop, and the lack of college degree doesn't matter one bit. My advice, if you're going to roll without a degree, is to not stop looking for that first, entry-level job, and to work your ass off at it. Put in extra hours, be a fucking superstar, and put on as many hats as you can. If you're a developer, learn systems stuff. If you're a systems guy, learn to do development, or design, or SOMETHING. Without a degree, you are your major selling point, and the more you know how to do, the more attractive you are to employers.
This is said many times.. but as someone who have only high school, and work in IT, i feel like i need to reply. ... self-taught people vs degree people.
And, btw, I think this discussion is
So my post, as well as those above me, will sound biased.
First of all ... why degree ? I look at it this way.
If I interview sys admin for a job, I'll judge his character and his knowledge. Why ? Because I'm sys admin from age of 16, literally. I hang out with sys admins, developers, and other IT people for 7 years now. I know them, how they think, and what they can do.
I don't need a paper saying he can learn, or he's smart, or whatever... If I want to test his knowledge, or improvising or other skills, I'll assign him a task, and see how he will do it, in what timeframe, etc.
The problem is, people who are hiring, obviously lack skills to determine that, so they need a paper that proves they can.
Another thing, all the people I know are self taught. Maybe thats because my country doesn't have a CS school, but anyway, the people Im talking about, programmed in assembler when they where 14, now, they develop apps in 10 languages, whatever you ask them to do. From C,C++,VB,php,java, .. etc. Some of them do only php, some of them do only C, but they have a job for years now, and they are doing really well.
Why won't you hire that guy ? I know I would.
Self-taught people ARE self-taught because they liked all that things. They loved it ... I skipped from school, so I can get home earlier and mess around on my freshly installed Linux when I was 13 years old. I'm sorry, but the amount of energy people like me put into all this, can beat every degree. I'm not in this for money, I'm in this because I am this.
Of course, there are CS people like me, who eventually went to college and got degree.. so Im not saying having a degree is bad thing.
The reality is, If you have a degree, you will find a job 10x easier. But that shouldn't work that way. Not in IT.
And reply to parent, you can always find job online. And work from home as a sys admin/developer. IMHO, that's even better then sitting in the office 8h/day. I know people that have families, and work that way, not because they can't get a job, but because they like it that way. So you might consider finding a job that you can do from your home. No degree neccesary.
You can do it without a degree - but it'll take much longer to get there. I don't have a degree, nor do I have any certifications - yet I'm moderately successful. I have no desire to be a manager - so I was hired despite the lack of a degree (because I'm not a threat) I worked my way up through the years (I'm 56) while others with degrees have lagged. I'm successful because I work hard and I know my stuff. The degree is a foot in the door - without it you've got to work for years to establish that. Once in the door tho', you'll meet different kinds of resistance depending on how the powers that be view the need for a degree.
I don't see why you could not get the job without a degree, asking for Degrees and such are are easy (good) way for a company to filter out most of the unqualified massed. But if you can show otherwise your expertise to them and you are overally normal case then there should not be any trouble.
If you have the skills and you are eager to learn etc then I think you're in the good side of things. Hardest part is to get into interview, helps if you have connections etc.
Try to contact them directly or send open application and phone after couple days for confirmation that they have received it. Try to look like you're interested in the job and do some digging what the company does and what its values are.
...is that you will be a bumbling idiot without formal education in system administration, IT and CS in general.
You need that degree, if for noone else than yourself.
Unfortunately the world is run by people who are so stupid and dense they actually have to pay people to supplement their pathetic learning skills. Universities and Colleges prey upon these hapless halfwits, take all their money and give them pieces of paper that can replace having actual job skills or a brain. They aren't so good at giving out hearts, courage or rides home but the principal is the same.
Since most people in senior management have suffered this type of learning disability their whole lives they can't even imagine someone capable of learning on their own. They will never trust this strange power some people seem to have to read documentation, play around with things and gain new skills.
Now a person like me with no credentials at all (except some product courses) has to wait until one of these mental defectives screws up really badly and management has to bring me in to fix the mess. Then I get my chance to show my superior skills.
All this would have been much easier if I had a magic piece of paper because the first person I have to get past is usually an HR person and they are very rarely capable of understanding most of what's on my resume. I generally don't even see resumes without degrees when I'm doing my hiring because the HR moron strains them out. Even though I'm biased against people who wasted all that time and money in school I rarely hire someone without those credentials.
I should also mention that it's a crappy job. Best case scenario you end up working for some scum bag corporation like me and being part of the problem with this world. You can be a consultant but then you spend all your time selling garbage..usually this is self promotion.
The idiot who fucked up the systems in the first place usually makes more money than I do for fixing their mess.
The school system, custodian of print culture, has no place for the rugged individual. It is, indeed, the homogenizing hopper into which we toss our integral tots for processing. -Professor Marshall McLuhan
I myself am a telecommunication technician with 5 years experience, and since I was laid off 3 months ago, no one will hire me because I dont have an engineering degree. The part I think is interesting is that they want the engineering degree for the technician jobs, which to me makes no sense, If I was a hiring manager I'd always go on experience, especially since when I worked I was handling millions of dollars worth of equipment, like GQAMs, Fiber Xmtrs/Rcvrs, and etc... I wouldn't trust a kid straight out of college in a Headend or Central Office.
It's my uncle's company. My father is dead, you insensitive clod (and I have his job)!
I'm sixteen years old, and am only working towards an A+ certificate [I do not have it; mostly because of the damn prices], and the local Mom&Pops Computer Shop hired me. That's straight IT though, close, but not as fun as sysadmin'ing would be I guess.
TooMuchToDo is correct, it's the effort that really matters, because papers can't TRULY tell what someone knows.
Try and find ads for IT jobs localy, and send in a resume; just not your standard resume. Send in one with what you've done with computers your entire life, and where you are now. That's what I did.
Anyway,
Degree's mean money.
You spent money for college and you need money to pay that back.
No degree means less money.
You didn't spend money on the degree so why should they pay you.
That is not always the case. Some companies lower their standards for whatever reason but you probably don't want to work there for long.
I would say get a certification if you can afford it. But I've known people that get neglected even having certifications.
Business managers just like to hear terms that make customers happy. MSCE CISCO Certified, Masters of I.T.,
If you just want to wing it then study the company. Know the subject matter. If the interview person is an amateur they won't know the questions they ask either so any reasonable answer will work.
Be prepared to start at the bottom. Along as you are willing to work odd jobs in the company they will move you around faster.
I've seen zero's shoot up to hero's at my company.
But we all know that hero's never survive long.
They usually leave for a higher paycheck.
Yes as I am living proof, but I worked my way up from being a Operator (Tape Monkey as we were called then) to being an Oracle and SQL Server Database Admin earning £44K in the UK. I dont even have any computing qualifications, except for course certificate for which I never took any examinations. You just need a lucky break, and also, its not what you know but who you know that can get you in the door.
I find it interesting that every post I read that says 'no degree' emphatically is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes.
Can you get a job with no degree? Sure. Can you get a good job? It's not likely, but still possible. Can you get a good and well-paying job? I seriously doubt it.
Unless you are absolutely amazing with a computer (and if you were, you wouldn't be asking this question because you'd already be working) then don't expect to get a decent job with no experience and no degree.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Get the paper.
The key to getting a job is getting an interview.
The decision on who to interview is most often made by the clueless (HR) who rely on the presence of "paper" to qualify you.
When you're first starting out, it's very important to have that degree to get your foot in the door. Without having the degree it can be difficult. But the ironic thing is that technology changes fast enough that the degree very quickly becomes irrelevant. This is especially true when it comes to system administration. Even those "schools" (ITT, DeVry, etc) that offer general IT/Sysadmin "degrees" have a very difficult time keeping up with industry trends. After about 5 years of working in IT, nobody will care about your B.S. degree (or Associates). Now if you're working on a Masters, Ph.D., or MBA, that's a different story.
But if you can break into the market without a degree and get those first few years of experience you absolutely can work yourself up to a good IT job. Remember, after 5 years in the workforce your experience will be comparable to everyone else's and their degrees will be outdated. Just don't expect to come in as a sysadmin from day one. You'll probably have to start at the helpdesk/PC tech level, then work your way up to a junior admin, and so on. I don't have a degree but after several years of hard work and continued learning I'm just shy of a six-figure income in a city where the median individual income is about $32k.
Find yourself a good recruiter/head hunter, and if you have the right experience and a well written resume, you can get a great job. My degree is in Illustration, but I'm certified MCSE, A+, Network +, and a few others, all along with having over eight years of experience in the field. That was enough to land me my current job recently via a recruiter. I think it all depends on how you present yourself and how much experience you have, as well as going through the right channels.
WWJD? (What Would Jonas Do? - Spinward Fringe by Ran
Getting hired comes down to two things:
1) Do you rock at what you do?
2) Does everyone know it?
A degree simply provides evidence that you have a clue about what you're doing, nothing more. Same for certifications. But neither are substitutes for actually kicking ass and getting caught taking names.
If you can demonstrate you're awesome at what you do, you'll get hired. If not, no degree or certification in the world will help you.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
You have to get yourself out there like a good IT company. You do it by word of mouth, and advertising when you want to reach some new people. Experience goes a long way in IT, but you've got to be able to demonstrate a progression. The more success you can show, the more employers are willing to realign their criteria when looking at your resume. You have to be good at what you do, as your record will reflect that. If you're very good, your formal education won't matter, but you've got to have real world success to compansate for that. You can't walk in and say, "I've got a GED and I like computers...also I can run scripts." You need to be able to demonstrate that experience. You get it through hobby and work. You probably need more of both though than your college educated counterparts.
A good friend of mine works as a sysadmin for a large company you know well. He's recently moved here (Switzerland) from the UK, as have I. He has no degree, I have a BSc, an MSc, a PhD, and about 7 years more experience. He earns a bit more than twice what I do. So no, having a degree is not necessary. I'd be jealous, but as a scientist my job is more like a an obsessive hobby I get paid for anyway.
I have no degree, been working in IT for 4 years now. Started as a Web Developer at a PHP house; and now am a Developer on Microsoft products. I don't think you need a degree, and I believe 100% in an apprenticeship model. On a side note, my wealth of experience working on open source projects really helped with getting a job, and with the first job was as good as having a glowing reference. So I would say a good starting point would be to get involved with some open source projects.
I've been in IT for almost 15 years now. No degree. I started college, found it slow and a waste of money, so applied my efforts instead to jumpstarting my career.
My first job in the industry was not in IT. It was in testing. But I made sure to volunteer for projects that involved key concepts that a sysadmin would need to demonstrate competency in. While other guys my age were fighting over jobs testing video games, I was testing various network products (hubs and routers, mostly, and other device types that have faded into obscurity since). And while all of the sysadmins were fighting over Novell jobs, I was testing this new product called Windows NT that nobody expected to be taken seriously.
The Novell guys had been so smug in their superiority and discounted the possibility of NT gaining a foothold in the market place that a great opportunity opened up for me within a year or two of my first job. I already had a couple of years of NT experience (granted, in a lab setting) while these Novell guys were struggling to catch up.
Over the years I've had to jump from one keystone technology to another. Along with Windows NT, I made a fair bit of coin on OS/2. Later I did some Solaris but for the last 10 years I've been doing really well on Linux. This run has been a good run, but I'll be keeping my eyes open for other opportunities. I don't want to be like those unemployed Novell CNA's in the mid-late 1990's.
So get your foot in the door with a more menial job. Do anything you have to do to learn the technologies and skills needed for system administration. Help desk work is often a great way to enter the system administration field. But once you're in, there is no time to rest. You have to keep learning, stay competitive, and be ready to jump to a different core technology as your major strength if you sense the winds changing direction.
Go into sales ;-)
We are all packets in the Internet of life!
Write a good and complete resume which contains absolutely all the technologies you know. This is important if your resume goes to recruiters and head hunters as most of these resumes end up in a database where keyword searches are done.
The more matches the more you will end on top.
If you send your resume directly to a company which is recruiting for themself, send your resume to at least 2 persons inside that company at the same time. This way your faith is not in the hands of 1 possible frustrated
"I have a diploma so screw the ones who don't" person or "I'm not going to stick out my neck for this diploma-less sucker" HR personel.
You're set if your resume makes it to the manager of the department who's looking for someone. Only talented people recognize talented people.
All due respect but most HR departments are merely a simple "if then" clausule, I've seen it happening more than once that they shred resumes from people without the right diploma, but with a wealth in knowledge and experience. Talent is often overlooked by HR.
Commit yourself to an open source project and have create a good name in the open source community. It helps your credibility.
I've seen more then once, people without a diploma, performing better than people with one.
It just means you'll have to start at the bottom if you don't have any previous work experience in the field. I know a number of people in sysadmin jobs who don't have any sort of degree, but they generally started at the bottom and worked their way up.
You can always start out as tech support somewhere just to get your foot in the door.
Many of the best IT people I know have no school past high school.
Some of the worst people in IT I know have a CS degree.
Certs on show you can pass the test
It all comes down to experience.
I would get your resume out to about 10 to 15 recruiters that do contract only stuff.
Take them to lunch, get to know them, let them get to know you.
Find a small non profit that needs help, and volunteer your skill with them
put them on your resume.
Your going to be cheap for the first few years then as your skills show themselves
your pay will jump.
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
I'm an example of it. I've sat in all of the chairs in various IT Department sizes and I don't have my BS or BA in anything. Although I do still wish to pursue it as a personal goal and not so much as a career builder. I have obtained some certifications that I felt were worthwhile (CISSP and CISA) but haven't gone the pure vendor specific cert route.
Just to set the reality of my statement; I was the CTO and architect of the Shipyard in Philadelphia and held other V/C Level titles as well. In my current life 'phase' I chose to prioritize quality of life over bucks. Plus I like doing 'pure' engineering work and actually working with the technologies as much (if not more) than the management side of IT.
I do not have a degree. I bring home a nice salary and live in a big house and support a family. I do, however, have Microsoft certification. That's what gets me in the door, past the HR filters.
What gets you and keeps you a job is being good at it. There are a lot of people out there who picked IT as a career out of a hat. I chose it for myself, because it's what I love to do. When you love to do something, you're going to be dedicated to it, and always thinking about how to do it better.
Oh, I'm almost forty, too, and I've noticed that there's definitely a maturity benefit that I have over my colleagues in their early 20s. I tend to consider what the business needs, and how technology can meet that need, as opposed to implementing things because they're awesome. I view everyone as my customer, even the other people on my team, not as "those fuckers from UNIX."
Love what you do, get certs, rise above office politics, learn to see the big picture, and be in the right place at the right time. Without any one of those things, you're definitely going to need a degree.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
I've been working as a developer for around 10 years now and have no degree. I'm making A Lot of Money(TM) while working a 40 hour work week.
Only once has not having a degree been a problem, my employer said 'you can only make X max', I put in my notice that day and within 2 months had a new job with a 30% pay raise.
Part of my current job involves me interviewing others. Never (and i really mean never) have i even looked at what school people go to, i just don't care. I don't care about your references either. Show me you have good experience (that you can demonstrate), are easy to work with (and it comes across in the interview) and are interested in the job - and you got it. Side note, in all my time doing this i never hired a 'dud'
And before anyone says 'what about the guys with 0 experience?!', that's not a problem either. Apply for JUNIOR level positions. Show me what you do that makes you worth my time (internships, open source projects, personal projects with examples - anything). I will probably give you a 'test' (basic thinking code examples to test how how think, not right or wrong).
If you have the skills, someone wants to pay you for them.
Why should anyone hire you if you are not willing to do the work to get the degree? That would be like coming to the job without the tools for the job. Get the degree. Give the employer what they want. It will only benefit you now and in the future.
I chuckle when I read the comments that to get a sysadmin you need as BS. I think the BS stands for bull shit, and I'm calling it.
I had to leave college after a year due to lack of money to pay for tuition and books etc. I went straight to the job market and got a low paying job, but one that got my foot in the door. 14 years later, I run my own successful business. OK, so it's not fair to say that every college drop out will be doing as well as I am in 14 years, but it's just as unfair to expect only BS holders to be able to get a sysadmin position, which by my standards is a pretty shitty job that you'll want to move out of eventually.
Truth is, experience will trump any degree in the IT world. The catch is that you need to have the experience to show, and that means you'll need to start out with low paying grunt jobs. Just remember not to give up, and keep an eye out for opportunities to move up the ladder. If you're doing the right thing, the opportunities will be around.
I think I share the sentiment of most HR personnel though. If a fresh college graduate with a BS in CS comes through the door and seems full of himself, he may get an offer as the janitor. Maybe. If some kid that couldn't make it through college for whatever reason, comes in and makes it clear that he's very willing to learn, and has a bunch of odd stuff to show for it, then he gets the job. They key is willingness to work hard in order to do a good job, and learn. In short, college degree or not, he who fits the bill and seems like an ethical person willing to do the work, gets the job. Sysadmin is not rocket science. You don't need a BS for that.
Ever seen this?
:)
It's my cute li'l rendition of you
I would always recommend a degree. You do pay for a degree; however, money is not the only currency. Your time is also required. People always like to bring up Bill Gates. He is an anomaly. You aren't Bill Gates. Being Bill Gates doesn't mean being as smart as he. He is bright, ambitious, and extremely lucky (AKA in the right place at the right time). If you were as lucky as he, then you wouldn't be asking /. about this.
I have met two more than competent software engineers guys that didn't have a degree. Both of them say that no degree closes a lot of doors.
For example, one gentleman worked for MS. He could only get in the door by working for a contracting company; he worked for Boeing in the same manner. Neither company would even talk to him.
The other gentleman that I know worked his way up during the dotcom boom. At that time there was such a shortage of IT workers that he was picked up. He showed talent and he survived the bust. He is different than most non-degree guys; he actually learned CS on his own. His studies didn't cover 100% of a CS degree; however, it was pretty close. He read a lot of pure theory books and was a true autodidact.
I obviously recommend getting the degree; it was a lot of fun. If you don't find it enjoyable, then you don't need to be working in the field. (NOTE: I do understand that you are asking about a sysadmin job; however, I do believe that my experiences apply there too.)
I don't have a degree and I've been working for years, but I've had (and still have) my share of trouble. Many companies said that they were impressed with my resume but they simply won't hire me because I don't have a proper degree. In the end, it turned out fine because the places that accepted me seemed to be a lot more open and friendly and they recommended me to get a degree and insisted that they don't mind but it will help me in the future.
It is possible, you can get more decent jobs (with same or even better pay) without one, but everyone recommended me to get my degree.
I should add, the "position" was doggy style. I learned a lot of valuable things, though. For instance, I learned how good it feels to have a big cock massaging my prostate.
I didn't finish my degree and I have a high level, well paying IT job, but I've also been in the industry for 15 years. "Back in the day", when computers were more for geeks and hobbyists, it was much easier to learn and work and you were hired because you had the knowledge and the experience. Keeping up certifications and not letting my skills get rusty have kept me secure. Starting out fresh, though? Right now, most of us IT folk are a dime a dozen, and even if you have a degree in underwater basket weaving, it's going to win out over no degree.
Baseless self confidence kills more people each year than bathtubs.
Degree+certifications+good resume show you know Something.
Connections get you known, and help you find a good interview. References build trust but are not always necissary.
Most university and college IT degree's are shit and don't teach you anything you're going to use in the real world. Most techs coming out of college with an A+ cannot fix a PC and certainly can't fix a laptop.
Most certifications are a joke but are there as an additional hurdle to show you know something. Having experience and certifications shows you spend your time on the job learning and teaching yourself, employers value that. I met a sysadmin that didn't know what QWERTY and Dvorak were, or what virtual interfaces were for on routers or what RIP was. If he had studied for CCNP, he'd have known what those are and would've been able to make some killer recommendations for hardware to his superiors, or dump his shitty 18/hr job for someplace else. And sure, if he grabbed CCNP/MCSE/Redhat+, etc, made the requests for hardware, got the shop running right and was badly underpaid, you stick with the job for a year and list on your Resume' you took them from a Windows workgroup to a fullblown domain with FTP and the whole 9 yards and you have experience with it and, ultimately, when you leave for a nicer job, the company hires a shitty new IT dude and supplements his incompetence with expensive contractors, hopefully learns their lesson, then hires a new guy and pays him what he's worth. It's one of the ways we, in IT, force companies to pay a decent wage; by letting incompetent rabble at low pay work with the equipment and fuck it up. Sometimes, that incompetent rabble turns out to be damn good, and if he is, he ain't there for long.
One of the unique things about the IT industry is every few years there's a culling whereas high-paid specialists and generally useless people are let go and because companies are tightening their belts; managers and HR become the most competent when there's less money to hand out. When companies are hiring, they don't get re-hired and you hear belly-aching about jobs shipped to chinks and sand-niggers. If you know your shit, you can do your shit right, you can make "magic" happen, and you're on your toes the moment you're let go/fired, and you're near a major city, you'll have a job in this industry. If the economy is shitty, expect to be underpaid; if the economy is good, expect to be paid what you're worth.
You might be able to do something with programming if you had a very impressive portfolio, which is an area where open-source projects can come in handy. This holds true for similar positions where portfolios can apply.
But there are some IT careers where you just can't build a portfolio. How would you do such a thing, for example, doing sysadmin work? In these cases, a degree is probably your best option.
I do computer penetration testing for a living. Imho I know a lot about everything computer related and I do full scale pen tests. I'm a freelancer and I'm 16 tho so things are kinda hard (a "hacker" job is not easy to find when you're underage). I find most certifications in the field silly (especially some considered "elite" like CEH and other) just because they're so lame. Imho it really deppends on what you really want to do... If you want to hack into networks, overflow and fuzz stuff for money you don't need "hacker" education but rather (woah) leet skills... Giving presentations, having publications etc is what you need to be "famous" and thus have companies accept you and your work easier...
I can easily confirm one can work in the IT industry without a degree. However, the difference in pay can be staggering, especially when you see your advancement path... More than likely, you'll have to start in one or two areas: Tech Support or Software Testing. I can't say for sure, but seems like most people who enter tech support are doomed to stay in is black bowls (though Im sure some escape). Software testing is a fairly dull job most places. You often simply follow a set of test scripts, and raise PR's as needed. However, most places use some form of automation (Rational Robot), so there is a chance you would have the ability to branch into coding easily enough. If you're lucky, you might get a junior position as a coder in a year. Heck, most test groups have their own servers to maintain, and you could "get stuck" adminning them (which sounds up you're alley). However, sticking with the coding example... I and a friend of mine started as testers around the same point. He is a high school grad, where as I have a masters. My starting salary (In Canadian dollars; so yes, it does suck): $35K His: $30K As we moved into development, the delta grew: Mine: $45K His: $32K Now, after two years, we both have the same position (quite high up for where we are...) but a nearly $20K difference in salary. Is there REALLY a difference between us; no. He and I are pretty damn good coders, but the higher ups love to see that piece of paper. IF you can, get one of those lower end jobs and just study to get a degree or certification of some kind. Your pay scale may suck at first, but it might pay out soon. But those loans are going to suck....
idioelectric - Electric per se, or containing electricity in its natural state.
Hi, Iâ(TM)m 25 years old, I went to university for 2 years and then decided it wasnâ(TM)t for me. At this time I took a run of the mill job in a local DIY store just biding my time till I could work something out more "me". By the time I hit 23 I thought "Right, itâ(TM)s time to do something". So I looked into work in other countries and low and behold I found a job as a Systems Admin in Denmark (of all places). Iâ(TM)ve now been working here for 2 years and Iâ(TM)ve got 3 people working under me. So to answer your question, it is possible, but it takes a lot of hard work. And previous experience is instrumental in securing your job, as a guy that can pass a simple test in an interview is worth more than a guy that canâ(TM)t. Hope this helps ïS
Short answer: yes you'll want a degree.
Long answer: Technically its not so much about what you know, as most companies offer continued education for thier employees, its about who you know. If you and I go for the same position and the hiring manager is your brother, regardless of the differences in education, you would have a higher chance of getting a job....unless of course your brothers one of those by the books people, or we're both applying for some mission essential job where what you know could spell the diff between life and death. But lets face it, we're geeks, what means death to us means little to most others.
Enthusiasm is what gets geeks jobs. If I was going for a system admin job if I showed no enthusiasm for my work do you think I'd be in the running against those that did? Noone wants someone working for them who doesn't care about thier job.
Well, I don't have a sysadmin job, but I am the senior network engineer for a small local integrator. I get paid similar to what a sysadmin for a medium-sized company would start at in my area. I have no degree, and my "big" certs are all dated (MCSE NT 4.0, CNE 3/4/5), but I have over a dozen years experience, and I know something about almost everything we do. I'm also a darn good troubleshooter. Years ago, my first IT job was workign for a guy who also ran a local BBS, I had been helping out with the BBS as a volunteer. That got me a job, which put experience on my resume. Then I worked in a call center (tech support... ick.) for a while. I had another lucky break, my best friend at the time got a job offer, and recommended me as his replacement. I was also recommended by my first boss, who had done some work for the law firm that my friend had been working for. This is all 11 or 12 years ago. So that one volunteer position really helped launch me to where I am now. I have had a couple of other positions since then. I'm by no means comfortable that I will stay where I am long-term, but I'm coming up on my 5 year anniversary there, so this one has been pretty good.
My advice, based wholly on my personal experience, is to go volunteer somewhere, if you have the financial means to make that feasible. (I was living at home, working another part time job when I did my stint). Then, get yourself into an entry-level position, and get some certs (not necessarily in that order). With experience and some certs, you should be able to land a better position after a while, and so on until you get where you're going.
The important part of all your replies is TIME. 10 or 15years ago the number of people working in IT and the proportion of them with a CS degree was significantly less. Also take into account the amount of people who are encouraged to transfer to IT. The number of university graduates in CS increases every year. In the current market getting a job without a degree is almost impossible. Unless you have experience. Getting experience requires either contacts or a DEGREE. You can only show what you know once you get to an interview. With the shear amount of people who think there good at IT out there every job vacancy has hundreds of applicants. Certificates show you know about the systems involved while a degree shows you know the theory. This is in principle the only way to be sure is to interview. So while you can get a job without a degree its better to go for it. As if you don't you will be competing with people with 10 or 15 years experience on you which you will never catch up on.
I left school with one 'O' level (for I am that old).
I am now a third-line support bod, and get to install/ break the latest toys (Exch2007, SQL2008 and so on).
I used to think that it would have been much easier if I'd gotten 'proper' qualifications - however, if I'd have gone to college I would have found myself competing for jobs with bods that had already been in the business for three years.
Now I am on the 'other side of the desk', and find that when interviewing, I'll almost always go with someone that has experience, as opposed to someone that has qualifications that, in real terms, will already be out of date in terms of practical usefulness (I'm talking about hands-on tech knowledge here).
The downside of the 'experience' approach for the worker is that you're going to have to take less money for the first few years, so that you can then apply for more jobs and quote your experience.
However, IMHO this will give you an advantage over the straight-into-management college applicants - you'll know more real-world tech stuff, you'll then have a much better idea how long IT jobs take (if you want to move into management), and you'll have a lot more respect from staff in those areas, having done the job yourself.
Don't bother with MCSE's to begin with (you could maybe a single MCP), as without any experience they simply show aptitude as opposed to actual real-world knowledge. I've interviewed dozens of applicants who were MCSE, but couldn't tell me how managing Exchange 2003 was different from 2000. Do them once you've been in the job a few years.
I got a Masters degree in Computer Science from a "top" university in the UK.
However, if I were a boss interviewing candidates for a role, I humbly admit that I would sooner take a solid open-source hacker (for example) without a shred of paper qualifications over somebody like me!
I learnt many useful things in my course, some much more successfully than others, but there were students in my course who knew more about computers and programming before they started their degrees than I probably still do, years after graduating. I do have a lot of knowledge and a good level of experience after having worked for 6 or so years in the software industry, but the nature of computing is such that you can obtain huge levels of experience and expertise in your bedroom without ever taking a course. Take the Linus Torvalds stereotype, as an obvious example.
OK, there aren't many Linuses out there, but there are plenty of other very skilled programmers or sys-admins who acquired their knowledge totally independently of academia.
A degree shows commitment to a technical discipline, but not nearly as well as some good code or some practical example of systems expertise!
Been a DBA and Unix SA for over 10 years now. I finished school at 16 and went straight into tape monkey work on mainframes back in '92. After about 2-3 years good production experience, you can usually get your foot in the door. The boring, backroom jobs like SA/DBA are so "black-art" that IT managers just hire you and leave you to it, they don't really care too much about paper-qualifications.
It is completely possible. Personally I still do not have a Degree and have nearly 15 years of experience I have worked in IT ever since I got out of HighSchool. Albeit I started at a lower Wage then someone with a 4 year degree, but I also did not have the Student Loans ;)
15 years later I work with people who have PHD's and MS in Comp Sci and make the same or nearly the same wage
-Daver
The education component is just an obstacle course and the degree is just a piece of paper that says you can do it. It's not about the courses you take its about getting them all done, you'll teach yourself everything you need to know.
Some companies won't even consider you, but I've had a successful 25+ year career as a software developer without a college "education." In this business, if you can't teach yourself you will be at a severe disadvantage. I'm currently a software engineer with a Forbes top 20 corporation.
Sure there is a hope but you have to be willing to make few compromises first. Start on a bottom and work your way to the top. Donâ(TM)t be afraid to speak up when youâ(TM)re confident that your solution is better than the one proposed. Take me as an example â" I have no university degree but I was always passionate for what I do which eventually brought me all the way up to managing projects and having my own startupsâ¦. If thereâ(TM)s anything I may be able to help you with, please do not hesitate to contact me on jparick(at)gmail.com. Good luck!
I have no degree (just a BTEC in computing), but have worked my way up from the bottom. Starting by doing part time work painting floors in the warehouse, then offered data entry job, and then programmer, I then moved on to one of the largest Pharmaceutical companies as a programmer and I'm currently in one of the largest Computer Companies in the world, still in Dev IT.
Part of me would have liked to go to Uni, but with my experience now it does not really matter. I've worked with some really amazing people far more qualified than myself, but also I've worked with folks with amazing degrees (Astrophysics, etc)but have been shockingly bad at Dev IT.
All I can say is never ever let anyone tell you that you can't!
A buddy of mine who flunked out of college his first year now runs his own wireless security business and is quite successful. Not sure if that meets your interests, but it is possible, if you put a lot of work in.
What is the difference between someone with a degree and someone without? Generally it's their intellectual level an ability to adapt. This doesn't apply to everyone of course but in my experience it does to most.
A bachelor of science means you not only completed your core requirements but you also explored a great deal more expanding your mind, making you think in other ways and you aren't a limited tool. It also means you took classes in a variety of different classes to understand the underlying technology. On top of that it means that you dedicated yourself to learning for at least 3 and a half years and are fully capable of learning at that level. That's extremely important to companies especially in IT.
A friend of mine is a Sysadmin and took thermodynamics, electronics of computers etc... classes that really delve into why things work the way they do. Not only does that help you understand what the cause of the problem is but the best way to fix it. It allows you to give the companies you work for more options and a better evaluation of the problem. Trying to sum up 4 years of this does not do it justice...
But I would hire someone with a degree and 3 years of experience over someone without a degree and 5 years of experience, if they both worked in similar jobs.
What I have seen of the industry is, you definitely need a BS... BullSh1t!
In my experience the people talking all the BS, but actually don't know jacks and do not have a genuine passion and interest in computers are the ones getting the jobs and the nice salary, just because they were able to write a dissertation largely composed of BS. Where as most of us, the genuine computer freaks who can write C++ code with our eyes shut and know operating systems inside out are lined up at the Job centre....
All my uneducated 2p worth of course.
most managers are not technical, therefor they really have no idea whats going on. Drop a lot of keywords that make managers wiggle in their seats for the position you are applying for. Get your foot in the door, then dazzle the people giving the technical interview.
I'm personally a high school drop out, who works as a linux sys admin. I used to work for the big corporation, but after 8 years of that mess, i went with a much smaller company, who was even less concerned with my education and more concerned with my know how.
I think small companies are the way to go in these 'economic' times. Less worry of layoff, etc.
A college degree only shows your capacity to pay money for extended and unneeded education. A sys admin job requires 0 school training imo, its better to have the skills. You could always take night classes to fill the specific needs of specialized training for your future goals in the job market.
If you go work for a company that is strongly filtered by HR, your not going to get an interview, unless you are persistent.
If you REALLY want to work there, you need to be calling EVERY DAY. You need to find out who the hiring manager is. You need to find out who his boss and his bosses boss is.
Otherwise, no matter how talented and experienced you are, HR will _never_ put that info in the right hands. and not all managers have the time/experience to know to tell HR not to filter based on degree.
To quote an HR person who was standing in the way of a raise: "We CAN'T pay a person without a degree more than someone who HAS one! This raise would pay him more than I make"
Fortunately my boss understood the correct role of HR in a company. He heatedly explained (with me waiting in earshot just outside her door) that people who are actually building large nation wide networks from scratch 1) don't grow on trees 2) don't always have a degree and 3) are worth 100 times what the HR department was to the bottom line for the company. and 4) The president AND the CEO AND the CTO of the company had already signed off on the raise, so would you please do as your asked and stop wasting my time!
(apparently the raise had been approved nearly a month before, but HR was refusing to process it)
Yea, that was fun, I learned a lot about HR from that experience.
Depends on experience, I started at the very bottom with a firm and worked my way to senior sys admin. I would have never expected a senior position without a degree or experience.
I dropped out of high school and got my GED. Shortly thereafter I started learning to build computers and got my first job as a computer repair tech, from there I self studied and picked up my Novell certification and Microsoft certifications back when they actually meant something, this was 14 years ago. Currently I own my own IT consulting business and make easy over six figures. I have done consulting work for carnival cruise lines, MTV networks and Burger king Corp. You might not get a job as a computer scientist but can make a decent living even without all the fancy degrees.
Sorry, but you've ever met the SA's or help desk personnel I work with. The majority of them suck. The reason? They have no critical thinking skills. They don't know how to solve problems, or think outside the normal workflow routines. The reason is because they all have certs instead of degrees. Had they gone to college, they would have skills like critical thinking, leadership, and the ability to form complete sentences. Instead, my development team and I must pick up their slack, and it's not fun. Do yourself a favor and go to college. No matter how overpriced it is, you'll be better off in life with it than without it.
For example, at my first developer job out of college (Insurance company, 2000), the lead developer drove a truck for Frito-Lay and BS'ed his way into IT Dept. Of the 12 of us, I was one of two with a degree, and the only one with a Comp Sci related one.
Of course, they all produced the kind of code you'd expect from the guy driving the potato chip truck. When I left a year later, they were considering getting Source Safe instead of using zip files for source control...
How much do you want to be a janitor. Companies these days treat their hard working, talented, educated (with Masters or PhD) people like crap, let alone someone they pick off the street with no education.
I would say, Masters is becoming the new college (aka university) degree. And due to influx of educated people and massive number of Chinese and Indians who believe in education, soon enough PhD might be considered a normal thing to have to be a programmer.
So, however you look at it, get education if you at all can. I know it is not easy and affordable any more. But it is worth it and it will change you and make you see more and be more independent. However it will also make you more frustrated and unhappy as well.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
I don't have time to troll through all the responses to see if I'm repeating anything, but I offer my wisdom. Its more difficult to get a job without a degree, but not impossible. Some employers only care that you have that piece of paper, and could care less if you actually knew the stuff. The trick lies in finding one that knows that the talent behind that paper (or that would be behind it) is way more important than the paper itself.
"Is it possible to get a good IT job without having a BS or other degree?"
For most people, yes. For you? Probably not.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
I have no degree and work as a corporate systems administrator for a billion dollar company. I started off attending a local community college with plans to transfer to a four-year school. As part of my community college classes I interned in the IT department of a mill for this company. After the intern time was through, I was asked to stay on to help with a project. From there I became an independent contractor for a couple of years and then was hired on. Over the past few years I've worked my way up to being one of two systems administrators that handle the corporate level systems. I never finished even finished community college. I have to thank my internship for getting my foot in the door, but I've made it to this level without a degree.
"Don't hate me because I'm right...Hate me because I'm an MCSE."
A degree is helpful, it tells the employer that you are dedicated to the field and have the ambition to learn the subject material, but as others have said, it only tells half the story. In IT there are certificate programs which Degree vs. Certificate is often a good debate but again it depends on the employer and location for what they value more. Often what it comes down to is experience, can you do what the job requires? I've just turned 28 in the past month and nailed my first sysadmin position. Up to this point I have worked help desk like positions and assistant to the sysadmin. That admin recognized that I liked doing that stuff and delegated lots of his tasks to me so it brought lots of on the job training. I do have a 4 year degree, a couple of entry level certificates, but almost 10 years of experience now which like I said earlier, it depends on how much value the employer puts on those things to determine if they are necessary.
a degree will help you get started, and it's a nice leg up, but a degree without experience isn't worth alot.
however, if you don't "know" anyone to help you get that first gig, a degree may be a good option, if an expensive one.
i've worked in IT for 16 years now, and no relevant degree. i did start off doing student work in the VAX/UNIX lab at my university, which, as it turned out, was worth more in the market than my degree. ;p
i can count on one hand how many people i have worked with that had a degree in CS. that is changing or has changed due to the demand for IT people, and the difficulty at "getting started" without experience. that is where a degree program comes in. getting one started, of course at ridiculous prices.
there are little number of fields in which knack and experience has more weight, than I.T. has.
if you are good at what you do, it is quite easy to get a decent job. and even foreign job, irrelevant of where you live.
there are a lot of dinosaur companies, in which the hirings are decided by human resources. human resources is a relatively new field that lacks defined methods and foolproof approaches. hence one of the pitfalls they fall into is shoving a college degree requirement into I.T. jobs, just like they do to anything else. not only that, but some requires 'respectable' colleges, or degrees, which further diminishes their chances of hiring competent i.t. staff.
i.t. is a free field, in which all tools to learn and conduct your trade is contained IN the big cloud, internet, itself. one can start with nothing and become a competent sysadmin or developer within 2 years, doing nothing but learning from the internet through guides and tutorials and constantly developing.
not only that, but it also provides you all the tools to set up your own business ranging from marketing tools to word of mouth.
however if you mean, you want to land a job in some old school (non startup), monolithic, big megacorporation or corporation, you will need extra reputation on top of your abilities. but even then you may not be able to get past the stupidity that is human resources in some corporations.
but then again it is rather foolish to be wanting to work in such a corporation which lets human resources axe its chances of hiring capable individuals - if corporation's philosophy is skewed there, it is highly possible that it is also skewed in other stuff too, which may include work ethics, employee relations, or company psychology and atmosphere.
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Well, I held an IT position for a couple of years but I had a better job - same company - as an Analyst that required my technical expertise that wasn't in IT. But after moving with my partner across the company I had to give up the job. Trying to find a position that was in IT was hard but I decided I'd rather teach CS rather than trying to find another rat race job. Best thing I ever did. Now, I'm 40, in school, and loving everything about it. So, consider going back and getting that degree it might be the better option.
Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
As an employer, I do look for degrees. What they mean to me is evidence that you can take on a difficult process, manage it to completion in a reasonable period of time, and learn something in the process. The latter isn't always true though, as I have seen people with high school diplomas do their jobs (of equal difficulty) much better than masters and Ph.D. level workers.
Degree pedigree doesn't impress me. Degrees themselves are check marks. If you don't have one, it doesn't exclude you, but I would need to see clear and convincing evidence that you can work very hard, accomplish difficult tasks, and think on your own. Things that would show me this would be military experience, volunteer experience for difficult scenarios (peace corp, etc).
Without such experience, it would be hard for me to justify trying someone without experience.
This said, due to several dismal hires, where the resume and "experience" suggested strong success when in reality we got abject failures. Lifers I like to call them ... people who hide out in large companies who are functionally incompetent in their positions, yet are never fired due to political reasons ... makes the hiring boss look bad. All new technical hires have a 1 month, 3 month, and 6 month review cycle. This way we can filter out obvious lifers quickly, and avoid having them on the payroll for longer than a few months.
You would need to be able to be much better than the lifers. You would have to be able to convince us that you could solve difficult problems, and not get stuck at simple details. I have had MS level people completely unable to perform their tasks with a web page next to them explaining which actions to take. Yeah ... you have to be better than that.
The university degrees are more of a demonstration that you can navigate a complex process. I personally have higher expectations of MS and PhD level people. Sadly most of my expectations have been unmet by the candidates I have worked with to date.
I am a biochem drop out and have been in the Infosec industry for nearly 15 years. I have also worked occasionally as a AIX or Linux administrator and mentor/trainer. I am currently making $120,000 USD per year at a large Saudi Arabian bank in Riyadh.
At first it can be difficult to land a decent position, but if you play your cards right and represent yourself well you'll eventually get to a place where your experience trumps your lack of degree. There are a few places, mostly "big five" type consulting firms, that require you to have at least a BA or BS for insurance purposes. Employers in the Middle east or Asia are typically sticklers for degree holders, but most of them just assume that Expatriates from europe and especially the US have them, and don't ask.
This is largely because from their perspective, everything is learned in the classroom. If you know something you MUST have learned it in training, so if you know a lot of stuff you obviously have a degree. Its actually quite entertaining to see guys (mostly indian) puff their chest out and talk about their master's or phd only to get shut down for a week because they need to symlink libc.so.6 to libc.so. =)
But I digress, most of my colleagues do not have degrees or did not have them for the first 4 or 5 years of their career.
I do recommend that you go to college, though, you should get the background in general studies, science, math, and so on. Just don't think that you need a piece of paper to get a decent job.
If you are in highschool still and have a solid background with UNIX/networking/security/programming I suggest that you go and study something else. A Chemist, Economist, or Physicist that can program is better than a programmer that can program.
I'm a programmer for a huge corp. and I don't have a degree. I had some experience and that went a long way. Degrees are great to get your foot in the door and a higher starting pay.
Twenty years ago, I was 2 years out of high school. I'd completed one year of a Computer Science degree, but my parents split up and I had no money to continue. I took a job at a small consultant/reseller in my hometown - I met the UPS guy at the door each morning, and spent the day putting away everything that came in, and preparing stuff to ship out that afternoon. At some point, I started tinkering with FoxPro, helping one of the consultants there modify SBT Accounting to do some custom stuff. Through to course of deploying and supporting those modifications, I started doing some Xenix administration.
Flash forward to today - I'm the senior production DBA for an 18,000-employee, 24x7 company, and I crossed the 6-figure salary threshold last January. Over those 20 years, I've done FoxPro/dBase/Clipper development, classic ASP web development, PHP development, Windows and Unix/Linux administration, network security work. For the last seven years, I've been focusing mainly on DBA work, and today my job is 100% SQL Server and Oracle administration, tuning, and development work. Sadly, many of the biggest messes that I've had to clean up in my career have been caused by college educated, degree-bearing "professionals". A degree doesn't guarantee ability.
It can be done without a degree, but it takes a certain mentality. You have to live & breath this stuff. When others go home to play WOW or Xbox all night, you need to be experimenting with something new, teaching yourself some new skill. You need to be downloading, installing, and breaking (and subsequently FIXING) various Linux distributions. You need to participate in online communities.
Like other says, it all depends. I worked in Canada for 3 years in a small town (40k ppl) then the company changed it's needs. So I started my own company and tried to find work for a year and it never really took off because I had not so many contacts in the area.
So I decided to apply for jobs around and still couldnt get anything because I had no university degree. That's why I'm now doing one in IT Engineering.
On a side note, last year a friend of a former coworker called and I'm working part time for him now and could probably work full time too... So, experiences, education and good references are everything. Use them in different doses depending on the situation ;-)
I had a long career in comp sci with no degree. This was never a problem until a few years ago when I wanted to enter grad school in another field.
The quickest way was to earn a degree by examinations through Excelsior College. It's completely legit and utterly unrelated to fake degrees via spam.
All testing was all done locally and I never visited the college. You can use Excelsior's exams, as well as standard CLEP, DANTES, and subject GREs to earn credit. They'll grant credit for prior university coursework, and they also offer their own online courses.
For more info about testing out of college, see bain4weeks. (A 4 week degree is hype but the content is otherwise very useful.)
Unless you want a job with Google or Microsoft, get out there and get working. Do anything, cut deals, get to building pcs and servers. Then, once you get some knowledge, get some MCSE tests at http://www.vue.com/ . For Linux certs, hit the http://www.brainbench.com/ site, unless you want to pay for some of the higher end certs like RHCE or LPI. Brainbench is fairly cheap, and got me my current job five years ago, where I now make 40k/yr, which is decent for where I live. I have a friend who works an hour south of me, and makes 70k/yr and doesn't have a degree.
You have to get out there. A BS in CS is nice, but your really not going to make that much more having a degree. Its all in what you know, not what classes you took.
-- 4 8 15 16 23 42
It depends what you call good. I have an interview today with one of the top IT employers in North America. I have no degree (I do have a diploma) and have made it to the third interview no problem. I'm told by people inside the company that my (approx.) 3 years experience should bring me in around 45k, my buddy's been there two years making about 40k. That may not sound like much in NYC, but this is in Eastern Canada where the cost of living is fairly low (we have a lottery where the grand prize is 52k/year). So yes, you should be able to get a decent job without a degree if you look in the right places. Of course the degree increases your earning potential, but there is such a thing as over-qualified.
Sure. I've got one. I have been working in the industry over 13 years though. I think a lot of it depends on your ability and your talent. I don't do very many things in life well, but this is one of them. :)
Illiterate? Write for free help!
The first question would be what type of sysadmin do you want to be and do you have any good contacts? I did consulting for a number of years (small to mid size companies) and the lack of degree never hurt me.
But wait; now you are getting bored. You realize that you are lucky to roll out one server every two years and 80% of your time is patches/account maintenance/backups. The more you think about it, the more you realize that you could be replaced tomorrow because your boss/his boss thinks that all you do is push buttons. If you are wise you spent all that sysadmin free time (you have free time right? All good sysadmins should) learning about what interests you and getting certs as those are what it will take to "move up" if you don't have contacts and/or a degree.
Once you get to a higher level getting asked about what you need (ie: "The Budget") the ability to understand the relationship between IT and the business is critical to your continued growth within the organization. I had to do a business case/presentation for a data dedupe solution that I wanted and I can say without a doubt that the writing and research skills I gained during my bachelors (and now masters) courses helped me a more than just a bit when it came to getting the purchase approved.
At the bare minimum I would say that you need to start earning certs and building your business contacts. Join local user groups or even Infragard (if IT security interests you). Set up a Linked In profile and join a bunch of groups (on that site). A degree can always come later should you feel that it will help you further advance your career. I can tell you that when it comes to many larger companies a degree figures in what your pay will be. Fair or not it is just the way things are.
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
I have no degree and am finding it increasingly difficult to get a job. I'm 45 years old and have been writing computer programs since 1974. I've designed embedded computer systems, and contracted for AOL, Microsoft, Yahoo, and others.
I had "computer science" in high school. My teacher was an old navy computer scientist from the early weather research. I learned the fundamentals from a hard core scientist before "computer science" was its own persuit.
Todays market is tough, if you have the option, get a degree.
I started out without a degree. I landed a job as a receptionist years ago with a company that had a website done by another outside company. My company learned that I knew HTML and had some technical know how when it came to computers. The next thing you know they let me start doing website updates and mini sites, as well as some computer help desk work for them since they had no one in house. I did that for about a year or two and was able to land my first "assistant webmaster" position with another company afterwards.
At that point I started being able to prove my back end development skills using Perl as the language of choice at the time. Over the past 10 years I've been able to work my way up to Senior Developer at an Advertising Agency that works with high end clients. Examples of my work and my 10 years experience have gotten me where I am today without a degree. You just have to be lucky enough to find an open minded company like I did that will allow you to try new things with the skills you have. The hardest part will be finding that open minded company that will allow you to get started.
I don't have a BS degree but I was able to get into the field and work my way up. It was durning the 90's tech boom. But I was originally hired into Operations by a guy who liked to hire non-tech people and train them in the field. I worked into Unix Administration over the years. You will find that 80% of the job is just being able to adapt, remember, learn, and get along with the other people. You will also find that no matter what you do, what qualifications you have, a Sysadmin job is not a Sysadmin job. Each company will approach things differently so your main trick will not to "learn the OS" but to "learn the environment". What they have in place and how each part relates to the other part. Working in a cubby whole will get you nowhere. I've also known people, who don't even have a Highschool degree, get hired into the field. They just had to work at really crap jobs and really work their way up. Start looking for jobs. Start looking for anything that will hire you that's close to where you want to go; study; build systems at home and on your spare time (without google) and be ready to change jobs multiple times. Oh, and don't burn bridges. I don't know where you are but I've found that even in large urban centers the sysadmin community is a small one. You may not know the new guy they just hired in, but odds are good that the both of you know someone in common.
I agree. It's not so much who you know as what you know. I've seen several sysadmins without college degrees achieve their position by taking a tech support role or something similar and then demonstrating talent and interest beyond your job. If someone in your organization notices that your talent is wasted in a support role and needs you elsewhere, you'll get promoted, degree or no.
Yes, if you have 10 years experience, or a degree and a handful of experience you too can be a rack monkey at google.
Thats his point. No Ph.D. no good job, good location and involvement in good projects. Once a company becomes large enough it takes some luck to be able to move from the bottom tier to anything else, and honestly why bother if you can get a job someplace else off the bat that pays better and allows you more satisfaction (time worked, projects worked on, career growth & flexibility etc etc)
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
I got my present SysAdmin job through a series of networking... I was working as a repair tech for Staples, and had a regular customer that I kept in touch with through my following job, which was an on-site tech for small business at a local Mom-'n-Pop. When I left the Mom-'n-Pop, the regular customer hired me on as the sole person in IT. Now I'm the head of a 2-person, 3-building IT department.
My Father-In-Law has only his HS Diploma, and is a project team manager for a large (solvent) big-box electronics retailer.
-Pope Peter Porker, S.O.W., K.M.K.R., U.G.O.A., F.S.G.S.D.
Just get a job sweeping floors somewhere where they have an IT staff. Look for every opportunity to step in and outshine the IT staff when they have a problem they can't solve quickly. There are a lot of college educated morons out there, trust me. We have several here. We've got two guys with CS degrees that do sales and a gal with a BS in some stupid subject who picks parts in our warehouse. I'm a high school grad who does the IT work, electronics repair, PCB design and layout, embedded software programming, and customer tech support. My point being, most degrees don't mean shit and a lot of (good) employers know it. My wife has a BS in broadcast telecommunications and she does bookkeeping for a living.
I have been working in the Information Security group with a global Fortune 100 company for nearly 2 years now, and am paid just barely below the median salary for the job description. I had nothing more than 1.5 years of college and 4 years in the Marine Corps when I landed my current position.
There are employers out there that are definitely willing to take a look at your personal experience and desire to learn new things.
I was specifically told that the 'personal experience' section of my resume, in which I gushed about the mini datacenter in my laundry room and my creating DOOM maps and running a BBS as a kid in my spare time, was the big reason I was hired. I showed that I had a genuine interest in IT, and I wasn't just going through the motions for the money.
Don't get me wrong, there are some asshole hiring managers out there that will take one look at a blurb like that and write you off post haste, but you're probably better off without that job anyway.
Good luck.
And let me say this: forget about it. Not these days.
I speak this as somebody who did what you are asking about, only decades ago. Back then they didn't have enough people who had ever actually seen a computer to fill all the open jobs. That is not the case these days, I should remark. In any case, if you'd ever touched a computer (wheedling computer time off of system admins used to be quite common) and you seemed bright enough to figure things out, you were hired. Math geeks were preferred. It wasn't a bad way of doing things, but it's as extinct as medieval style apprenticeship. It's as different as going out West in the pioneering days and staking claim to some land, and trying the same thing today.
These days, no degree means that from an employer's standpoint, you're damaged goods. That has always been true once you reached a certain level. I became an MIS director, then later lead engineer in a software development firm, and what I found was that I could no longer apply for entry level jobs and work my way up, but I couldn't pass the filter for high level jobs. It was always a limit on mobility, a filter of which jobs I could apply for and which I couldn't. So, my choice was consulting, or getting the degree. I'd done enough consulting to know that I didn't care for the things I'd need to do to run my own business, so I went back and got the degree.
The degree-less career path was always a dead end, it's just how long you could travel it that has changed; once that path was long enough to make a reasonable career, now it's not.
There's only one option (other than going back to school) when you hit the degree dead end: starting your own business. It could be a screwdriver shop, it could be a web business, or it could be a consultancy (if you have experience worth selling). These days you hit the dead end from the get-go, so I'd say we're looking at a screwdriver shop or a web business. Either way you're going to be self-employed, and most likely won't break even unless you have a hidden gift for business.
Alternatively, you go back to school. A computer related degree is of course, ideal, but really any degree will do, especially if you can scrape together a minor in CS. That, and some luck and fast talking, can get your foot in the door. Maybe you're English major means you can write; maybe your Art History major gets you a position at a museum's IT staff, or at a software developer who sees the advantage of bringing some visual sophistication onto staff. Then once you have a few years of experience plus a degree, you're in much better shape, especially if you continue to take night courses in technology and claim you're working towards a Master's. A CS minor working towards a master's and with two or three years of experience should be pretty competitive with CS majors coming out of school.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Here, we prefer candidates who have some phone support experience, when hiring for 7/24 operations positions. From there they can switch to regular day time (means from 08:00 to 20:00 in good days) engineering/sysadmin/network_jockey jobs. In fact this is the only way in a company where I am managing the related departments.
Reasons behind phone support experience requirement are:
1) Your normal (!?) network engineer with a BS degreee lacks communications skills (that is between carbon based life forms, they can talk SMTP, HTTP, POP etc. alright...).
2) Increased resistance to frustration...
3) They can handle heavy language (King's English and international variants) easier.
4) They have experience to tell people how to perform difficult to tell operations on the phone. If it is difficult for your mother in law to reset a screen saver password, it is difficult for most (IT trained) users to line up a satellite dish after a long ESD shutdown.
they are offered 6 figured salaries (in dollars).
With today's exchange rates, that'll be minimum wage? Whoops...
I'm a professional programmer, have been since I dropped out of school at 16. Read: I have NO qualifications (including the UK version of the GED), and no extra certification of any sort. I came into this game totally naked.
I started out doing IT Support, quickly moved into PHP development, and now 4 years on I work for a small but very profitable company who write software for the insurance industry. We use a wide range of languages, from Python to C#.
Personally, I have NEVER felt held back by my lack of qualifications, it just hasn't been an issue for my previous employers. I've found all that matters is you're easy to get on with, and really know your stuff.
On the flip side, the number of graduates who don't know the first thing about REAL development or the business world is quite staggering. I'm often left wondering what the fuck they spent the last 4 years doing.
As far as I can tell they spend 2 years learning buzzwords and the rest trying to master procedural syntax. They're vaguely aware of silly little things like object orientation, functional specs, version control, coding standards, and the kind of robustness you need in the enterprise, but often can't seem to understand why they're useful.
This may seem harsh, and of course there are some excellent graduates, but I have been quite surprised, time and time again, at the general quality of candidates.
When it boils down to it, a prospective employer wants to know two things:
Can you do the job?
Can you integrate well with the group?
Personally, I'll take the professional and passionate enthusiast over the wet behind the ears cocky young graduate any day.
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
... hmmm, just a lucky guess: Has the name "Herkules" any let's say "relation" to your company? If so, we're very probably talking of the same person ;-)
But back to topic:
A friend of mine was just hired out of another contract and works now as sysadmin for a large software development company.
He has no certificates at all, not even did he finish secondary school. And he has also no job training. So to say, he's totally uneducated.
But he tought everything himself about IT and administration. For years. He has no IT certificates not because he wouldn't pass the test, but because it's not important from his point of view (I'm talking to him like maniac that he's wrong in this point).
University grades are _not_ meaningless. Especially not if it comes to your monthly payment. Ungraduated will earn less, noticable less.
Without a grade, you won't be able to get certain jobs. E.g. becoming sysadmin in a bank or public office, or at government. There you just won't pass the entry level -- regardless if you're capable of actually doing the job or not.
So, without a grade you first and absolutely need a _perfect_ letter of application. You have only one or two pages to tell the HR people that you're the right person regardless of your education or grades.
You shouldn't tell them streigt "I did not finish school at all, school sucks", but distract them by tactical ommissions. E.g. summing up your education and your carreer very short and using only the starting years instead of start and end. When you write "1992: Secondary school; 1996 web programmer at XYZ", they might not notice that your secondary school time was a bit too short to finish.
To cut it short: Becoming a sysadmin in a medium size or bigger company is possible, even for "uneducated". But it's hard, and nothing I would advise. You'll have to compete with people having the right papers allthough they can't do the job at all -- and it's usually the entry level which is the hardest. If you've managed to get to an interview, you can demonstrate your qualifications.
The slighly overweight penguin.
Sorry I'm anonymous coward, but my boss banned me from logging in on Slashdot hehe
I've been a high paid IT recruiter for 3 years now and I can give you one advice, if your CV/Resume sucks don't use a temp agency or recruiter.
The reason for this is that the temp agency will charge the company twice what you would be earning, the recruiter would ask between 20 - 35% on top of your yearly salary.
In my first few years I tried to get people a job this way but it hardly ever worked. More times than not I scr*wed them over as they would have gotten a job with those companies if they just applied themselves.
However as all companies that use recruiters/temp agencies have contracts in place that once a candidate is introduced (which can be as little as a manager who downloads your CV on our site) they are not allowed to hire them for a full year or two without paying us our fee. (and yes this is upheld in court every time).
My advice; get 3 or more certifications on your belt and you'll be alright. Try (special ed) schools... preliminary schools... don't know what you call them (I'm Dutch). Those are always in need of some good staff. Call them up even if they don't have an ad out (ads are costly for them) and be positive about yourself. Stay in the same job for at least 2 or 3 years before moving on, else it will be a big disadvantage.
Oh and uninstall Windowz now and put in a copy of linux.
I'm did it; I did go to college, but didn't get a degree.
I am the IT director for a medical technology company and have been for several years now. I would say that any company that is innovative or really knows what they're doing is going to prize experience and knowledge over certs/diplomas.
If you want to do this I can tell you how I ended up where I am, and I think it's not an unusual trajectory for those who end up in this field without a degree:
1. learn all you can, you have to really like the work and having a knack for it, being good at learning new skills and picking up technical things helps a lot. You do need a solid base of at least some sort of knowledge to get your foot in the door.
2. Find a job as an intern or entry level employee at a small firm (start ups, non-corporate privately owned - perferably) somewhere where you can be mentored and where they use technology you are interested in. You need some skills before doing this, enough to bring at least something to the table - be willing to work hard, pay your dues and learn. I did this at a pirvately owned small ISP/consulting company that built and hosted websites/web applciations. I already had been building computers and doing freelance technical support and tutoring for people, and I learned everything didn't already know there in a few years, the following are just some of the things: Windows Server administration (IIS, DNS, networking etc); HTML, ASP, VBScript, the basics of working with databases, particularly SQL server (EG designing dbs, writing queries and stored procedures etc), the basics of dealing with code revision systems etc, and many other things.
3. In addition to providing me with a place to work with all sorts of hardware and software in live and development states and a mentor, I ended up getting all sorts of contacts in the IT field...That is the other key - after you learn enough to advance or outgrow a position, you need to know people who see that you're good at what you do. I got a reputation among the customers and clients of the company I worked for as someone who was knowledgeable and able to troubleshoot or fix just about any comptuer related issue who is patient and very good at taking very technical things and translating them into something non-technical lay people can understand..
4. One of those contacts was the company I now run IT for - we hosted their website and email and when they needed to solve some technical issues they called my boss and asked for me - I ended up doing consulting for them on several occasions. Eventually the companhy I worked for ended up moving all of their operations to hosted providers (like rackspace) as it ended up being less expensive, the owner retired and couldn't afford to pay me what I was worth so I left amicably. Two months later the CEO of the company I now worked for called my old boss to see if I was available. He gave them my number and I went and did contract work for them. after seeing that they were doing things like buying new PCs when a PC that was less than a year old had a minor problem, and that they were trying to host databases on consumer PCs instead of real servers and were growing to the point that that would be a serious issue for them I made recommendations - one was that they needed a real IT staff - we negotiated and I ended up where I am now. The company has grown significantly since that time.
So that is how I did it - I would say the real keys out of all of that though are to be self motivated and good at learning, and to find a mentor or place you get paid to learn new technical skills...That is crucial, because you have to learn somewhere, and you can learn a lot on your own and online, but it's by no means enough without the real world experience and the input and guidance of others.
There will be some companies that want a degree. They're usually the very big, old, traditional companies or types of companies that do government work.
But the majority of the market prefers job experience or computer certifications over college degrees. Personally I don't think the 4 years and 50k+ spent on a college degree is anywhere worth it.
Maybe 10 years ago, but the price of college has fair outstripped inflation and the time and money spent on it can be used much more effectively to self train and get your foot in the door via the desktop support route.
I now have my degree, but with allot of hard work, and low pay I was unable to do very well in IT without a degree. I think it is harder now. I finally got my degree, for personal reasons not professional. I worked for 4 years making almost nothing in the early 90's to get experience. I have a deep passion for computers, so I played with computers anyways. After a couple of year's slave labor, I had enough experience for consulting. I will admit I am a workaholic, so after 5 years I was not only managing my own clients, but did all hiring and firing for the small consulting firm. We were lucky and had a lot of good clients. Then in 2002, I went in-house as a developer at a Fortune 200 company. I have been there since, and I am currently a software development manager.
Now that you know my story, I will say this. I was lucky and had to work very hard. Like I tell my little sister who had an interest in IT and did not want to go to college, do not look at where I am at. I had luck at my side, I had to work harder than anyone did with a degree, and who knows where I may have ended up, if I could have gotten my degree, before entering the IT market.
The problem with not having a degree is that in a tight job market you are competing against people with degrees and more experience. Since you are asking this question i assume you have little experience and no degree so it's going to be tough even to get entry level jobs so i'd go get a 2 year degree in IT and some certs and work while you are in school. After you graduate you'll be in better shape to find a job because you will have a degree and expierience AND hopefully the economy will be better.
I don't have BS, and I'm working in IT for last 7 years. As system engineer/release engineer and last years as senior software developer.
But my overall experience starts at level of ZX Spectrum. (so its more than 15 yrs)
I've seen many people with BS in computer science, who were totaly not professional, and opposite, people without degree who were real guru.
Engineering is a state of mind not a degree :)
I own an IT consulting company that is quite successful and prosperous, with a number of government contracts. And, I have no degree. Push and you can achieve! :)
I have no degree. I started out in tech support, was there for 3 years, then moved to sys admin, then sys engineer, and am now a linux engineer. It is absolutely possible to get a good sysadmin job without a degree, you just have to know your stuff.
I am a college dropout with a very successful career as a network and security engineer.
Seek certifications in the IT field you are interested in, and take an entry level job to gain experience. Once you have certifications and experience, people will forget the college degree for many positions.
I have been in Software Development for 21 years and have no qualifications in IT whatsoever. I left school with 4 O levels (UK) and started an IT career almost immediately as a junior programmer. I thought IT experience would be more beneficial than a degree and I think I was right. I have NEVER been out of work for longer than 1 month and I earn more money than most of the people I went to school with.
I never finished my AA. Took all the major requirements I could (the fun stuff), and then dropped out.
Currently, I'm a Sr. Software Engineer. Been in the business for 10 years.
Just means you have to try harder, but you can do it.
-- Jason
I really hope this helps you: If you can build a box with parts you bought and install a linux or bsd with some useful server applications along with properly configured security then you probably can find a decent IT job. If not then I'd say no. I am employed as a data modeler. I do not have a degree, but if you need a box running a database to house 78 million rows of protected health information then I am your guy. In all honesty though, if you can do the above and you have a degree you'll make more money in the long run and be more valuable. I think that says a lot. Don't be like me. I am almost 40 years old and I returning to university next semester to complete my non-IT degree.
I have a big smile on my face when people ask me where I got my advanced degree in CS.
Don't have any degrees. I just have genuine passion for my field. 14 years later, I am still doing my work in it. At this point, no one even remotely cares whether I have such papers.
And yes, this has been answered many times over the years on Slashdot. :)
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
i graduated without honors, pretty much unheard of in the UK and people thought my prospects would be terrible. I took a job doing some development at a small company, worked fucking hard and did well. i've always been a good coder etc, i just didnt get into the uni way of life.
a few years later i get paid more than any of my graduate friends in the same field, am further up the ladder and can jump between jobs. when i was recently looking for work not one recruitment agent asked about my degree, it was all about experience.
if you are good at what you do and you like doing it then your likely better than the majority that are treating it as 'just a job'.
(web dev in london)
jaymz
I dropped out of high school and managed to get a decent IT job. Computers aren't an overly difficult thing to learn.
I was making money while other people were going to college, and now I'm in charge of a few people who have college degrees. You don't have to chop wood just because you drop out of high school.
Please post the details of the position(s) for which your organization is currently hiring and an email address to contact your organization. A virtual workplace environment would be ideal.
I see absolutely no correlation between a university degree and the ability to support anything, whether it's some leftover turnkey application that runs on SCO or 1000+ servers.
I have a degree, but I became a sysadmin as an intern. I happened to enjoy the courses leading up to the degree, but the subject matter has very, very little to do with any of the work I've ever done as a sysadmin, or even as a systems architect. I got practical experience on the job, including how to drive an API, and a wealth of other experience that simply was not available in school.
Granted, there is a distinct advantage to understanding programming paradigms. I probably could have learnt the basics on my own, but it doesn't seem likely that I'd have entered the market with them. OTOH, I was hired out of school for systems support, then moved to software engineering when some idiot manager thought it would be a good idea to decimate the support staff. I found it to be utterly soul-crushing, but to be fair, it was a very customised system, e.g., they'd rolled their own network transport and DBMS.
That is, working alone or on a small development team is rewarding beyond description. Being a cog in a large software development corporation is a slow roast.
The enduring lessons I learned at university are critical reading and writing (handy with most manuals), the value of re-reading (manuals), and the value of project completion. The single most valuable lesson, which I use daily, is the confidence that I can tackle any subject matter, even when it seems impossible at first, with careful reading and asking questions. That alone is worth the time and money spent, because I know the difference between my own shortcomings and those of computing products.
Simply put, college provided enough trial and error for me to convince myself that I really grok computers. You may not need this for yourself, and it's too bad that most hiring managers don't have the same luxury of trial and error. They're probably going to be stuck with whomever they hire, so the degree is very attractive to them.
"Press to test."
(click)
"Release to detonate."
Degree or not. I'd say it depends on a several factors.
First, and probably the most important, I believe, is how bright (IQ) you are. I'd say that you might fare better over the long term with a degree if you IQ is 120 or less. Less than 110, then consider a different career.
Second, is your personal learning style. If you learn best in a classroom setting, then the degree is probably the way to go. If you can RTFM and figure it out yourself, then you may do fine without.
Third, is your overall career goal. Sysadmin is a good start and pays well enough. If you think you'll do your entire career in sysadmin or operations management, then no degree might be OK. If you see yourself designing and coding software of some significant complexity, or managing software development then the degree is probably a good idea.
Fourth, is the curriculum you plan to study if you pursue the degree. If your aspirations are toward software development and design, then the curriculum should have courses specific to that career direction. I do not mean programming language courses, but theory courses such as analysis of algorithms, discrete math for comp-sci, and the like.
From my own personal experience, a high school dropout with a GED, there were times over a 30-something year career where I faced software development issues where I knew the degree, at least some very specific knowledge during the pursuit of the degree would have helped a lot. There was one assignment where my employer told me to go buy the books, take 3 months to learn the pre-requisite theory (on their nickle), find a mentor among my peers, then do the job. I did exactly that, but that was a good employer and I had a good track record with them.
There were at least two jobs I did not get because I did not have a degree. In retrospect, those two jobs would not have benefited my career anyway, but there were doors closed because I did not have the degree.
Given my career goals, given the advances in compsci over the years, given the kinds of jobs I had, the degree would have been a good thing. Then again, at the time I was of age to have gone to college (1963), there was no compsci, or IT focused degree.
On reflection, at the time I retired (2001) I'd say that there were, and still are, some holes in my software development education. Had I been able to pursue the degree when I was younger, I might have taken a different path through my career. That path not taken may, or may not, have made a difference in job choices, money made, my personal legacy, ... whatever. At this point, it's moot. For you, however, your decision now will influence your long term career outcome.
JMHO, YMMV.
Same boat, No degree. After working very hard to become very good at what I do, Sr. UNIX/Storage admin, I have a 6 figure salary at a very large pharmaceutical company. In another year I will likely be in an architect role. It took a long time to get here, probably longer than if I did go to college, but I am here and it is possible no matter what anyone says. I live in the Bay Area and if you are good then there is a job for you.
Posted as Anon for obvious reasons.
I'm in IT, and have been since the mid-90s. I have no college education - in fact, I dropped out of high school midway through junior year because I was bored of it all.
To say I took the long road would be an understatement - years of desktop support, mom & pop shop work, etc - the entire time working in my spare time on furthering my knowledge. Certs, proof of concept labs, etc - I did it. I had a network of over 2 dozen servers at one point, all connected with Cisco gear - sounds more expensive then it is, the dotCom bubble dropped things considerably.
Then a friend of mine was doing construction for a finance company, they needed someone so he arranged an interview. That was literally my 'big break'. I went from $32k, 6 months later $53k, and then it kept growing. Now I make over $120k/year as Principle Administrator of a fairly exclusive university on the east coast. Ivy league. So yes, it can be done, but it won't by any means be easy.
A large part of IT is 'talking the talk'. If you're smart, willing to work hard, and don't mind the extra work - you can talk yourself into a position you might not be 100% qualified for. Then you pick it up, fast, as you go and bam - there you go, more skills to add.
Good luck! It can be done!
I went to college back in the 80's for about 2 months. I quit when they went on strike. I have no college degree and I work for the US Government. I've been a sysadmin since 1993. I've also held positions of network administrator and programmer (before they were called developers). I do typically advise people to get a degree when possible because I think that IT jobs without degrees may be the exception.
If you get interviewed by an IT professional instead of a human resources professional, odds are the IT person will value experience over papers...unfortunately the vice versa is usually the case.
I don't have time to sift through the comments on this Monday after a Holiday, but I don't know if this has been presented... I have a Bach. degree from BIOLA (Bible Institute of L.A.). It's officially a Bach. of Science (I took the biblical language requirement to get it as a science degree) in Christian Education... I have the papers and ordainment to be a pastor, specifically, a youth pastor. In reality, that's a tough gig to raise a family on, so I do IT work. I hold a network/sys. engineer and DBA position at my company without a computer certificate or degree to my name.
I think the big thing a lot of people seem to forget about college is that it forces you to jump through hoops. Lots of them, every day. Tons and tons of hoops. Hoops you wouldn't otherwise give a damn about, but you do it because you have to.
Proving you can do this, and do it well, is pretty much exactly what I need to know about you. Guess what? Most of any modern job is doing just that; jumping through hoops. Sometimes the hoops in question are complex, and it'd be nice knowing you were able to manage your way through those at some point at a University.
Basically: given two people of equal knowledge, one with a college degree and one without, barring any personality concerns, I'll pick the university degree over the person without one any day.
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck? What is there to tell me that you won't just coast and accept said check and mail it in, day after day after day?
It's not fair to say that you're like that, because it's very possible you're not. However, when it comes down to it, I'm not willing to take that chance.
(Sidenote: I'm not actually a fan of bullshit and jumping through hoops, but to say they don't ever happen is a bit naive at best. Just saying...)
Well i am currently i live in England. Studying IT for another two years, then ill have an opportunity to join a uni or to go to work. While most of the teachers recommend going to uni, i think going straight to work would be better for me because i'd want to work as: :] Those kind of work positions sometimes require more exp than education. I know i'd have to start working at lower levels when i finish college and only then try to go up the ladder. :]
network technician/linux admin/network admin...etc
But i read about volunteering to charities and such, i quite like the idea of being junior IT guy for a charity related thing. Should i just go around and ask the shops if they need any IT staff? Or any advice how i can approach it would be great
For people with zero experience. Degree, Certs are the tickets to pass the screening and interviews.
Say two people, one with degree and one without. Both have zero experience, and I only have time to interview one...you do the math.
But if you get some experiences, like self employ, or volunteer, or some recommendations and connections that can bring you to the Interview room, degree is not a must. As long as you get the ticket...
The interview would play an important role. Make sure you are prepared. Don't try to play smart and think the interviewer is stupid, that just says that you can't work in teamwork and can't communicate. Try your best to demostrate that your are passionate in the field, and is a quick learner.
Knowledge does play a role but not a top factor. People are most likely looking for those who can communicate well, and quick learners that can upgrade oneself from time to time, especially in IT field where speed of technology changes are blazing fast.
After you get the job. The degree and cert is a past. No one cares about your past history.
Some people learn a lot in the degree (say they might have participated in extra-curriculum activates, or simply means they learned how to interact with people and do teamwork), some people learn nothing and wasted 4-years just on WoW. The HR and interviewers all know this fact, but if it's still better than nothing.
If you want a position for sysadmin in the Microsoft world, you're going to have to spend a few thousand getting certifications. You'll need those whether you have a degree or not.
If you're going for a position with Linux or Unix, check out a local LUG (Linux Users Group) for some great resources and job leads.
Don't stop there though. I got my last SysAdmin job from a guy I played Battlefield 1942 with who was a fellow Linux enthusiast. You never know when opportunities pop up and where, so keep your eyes open.
Evil Walrus >83=
Well, I don't have a degree, but I spent about 6 years in college, studying applied mathematics, physics and computer science.
I never finished mainly due to a liberal arts requirement, lack of money and a lucrative job years ago in visual effects. But I never
stopped educating or training myself. Everything from Veritas cluster, LInux/Solaris internals classes to management classes.
I've been working as a senior Unix engineer/administrator for over 15 years and currently I am vice president of Unix engineering at an investment bank.
So far this has never been a problem, so far, knock on wood. The last two jobs I've had required a degree, my current required a MS or MBA. But my supervisors were happy with my interview, my references and my experience and would deal with HR to get me on board.
But I would NEVER, EVER recommend the path I've taken for anyone. If you are relatively young, go (back?) to school and at least get your
Associates and take some related classes and do what you can to get some experience.
That being said, I never usually look at someone's education, unless they have little or no experience and even then, I look
for people who are willing to learn, have a genuine interest and curiosity in the work and a good personality.
It is true you can't learn system administration in school, but you can learn the foundations for a lot of the things you do as
you advance in your career. I've used the basics I've learned in my OS courses and have applied concepts from algorithm classes
as I have done more at some of my employers than just bread and butter SA work, including systems programming.
But I've been looking at finishing my degree for sometime now, just need to find a few cycles. Considering a
degree in management, finishing my applied math degree or a comp sci degree.
Good luck to you.
I actually got a job as a sysadmin and was making 6 figures without ever making a degree in any related field... however, it all depends on what you know and (pardon me for saying it) how good you are. I was able to pull it off because I grew up in a household where my father worked in the computer industry (as a Salesman) and literally brought minicomputers home for me to play with. I spent my whole childhood programming, fiddling, and hacking, and developed an incredible intuitive grasp for computers and what makes them tick. I followed that up by going to college and flunking out of everything by spending all my time in the computer lab learning everything I could about UNIX and Networking back in the early nineties, just before the Internet hit big.
However, even then it took a lucky break--I was working in the college computer center as an assistant to the chief systems engineer on campus when he got fired. Since I was the only hand on deck who could do his job, I got to do the job (for peanuts) while this state institution tried to hire someone. After three search committees failed to find someone qualified willing to work for what the university was willing to pay, they gave me the job officially.
For what it's worth, I did eventually get a degree... a B.A. in Philosophy concentrating in Religious Studies, followed up with a Masters in Theological Studies. But that was for me, and hasn't had any impact on my job prospects.
So... I guess the short answer is, it's possible, but you'll need a lucky break at some point. And I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you've got the skills to make everybody ignore your lack of degree.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Companies know that the best IT workers are those that would do it as a hobby even if they couldn't do it professionally.
You hit the nail on the head there. I am IT manager at a small internet company (40 employees) and I am in charge of hiring/firing for my dept. With only 2 notable exceptions, the best employees I have had did not have a degree. However they could tell me how they set up a Linux RAID NAS to supply movies and music to their Xbox or some other similar project. These guys live and breathe technology.
Oh... I also do not have a degree (8+ years experience though).
If you've got the attitude and aptitude to do the job, as well as a desire to learn from your mistakes (or others'), then yes, you have a chance.
I've met too many technical people with degrees that weren't worth the paper it was printed on, not to say that there haven't been very bright and talented people with degrees as well. I guess I'd say that I mean that it's the person, not the degree or lack thereof that makes a good technical person, whether you choose to become a systems admin / engineer (definitions of these terms differ from region to region), network admin / engineer or some other facet of IT.
I started as a UNIX admin in high school, and never looked back. 24 years later, I'm pretty much where I want to be, designing new systems and solutions for a fortune 500, with no desire to *move up* into management.
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
The degree requirement is there for a couple of reasons. It weeds out the people who are truly and completely unqualified and it demonstrates a minimum requirement for someone with little or no experience in the actual work force.
Every job I've had for the past decade "required" a degree that I don't have. If you bring the experience to the table, the degree requirement isn't even discussed.
Now, having said that, I do wish I had a degree and I encourage anyone who has the time and wherewithal to get one -- not necessarily in CS or engineering -- even history or literature. Because I do feel like I have missed out by not having gone through that experience. Every now and then I'll hear somebody mention something and I have to go wiki it and get a quick primer and then, if it sounds interesting enough, I can learn more about it on my own. A solid university education gives you a nice broad exposure to a lot of things that you don't have time to get to in the work force.
I did the military instead and I swear I don't know how anybody grows up without either college or the military.
After graduating, I found that my degree wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. I focussed on selling myself with a good CV and interview technique.
While I was at uni I worked in pubs and bars. From this I could boast enough about my customer service skills to get a 1st line suppoort position. It didn't pay great, but at least I was on the ladder. Since then I've moved jobs three times, each time moving up, learning new skills, gaining experience of new systems.
Getting that first job is very competitive (even more so now), you've gotta sell yourself as best you can.
I'd also try to move around alot early in your career, to get a varied experience. I don't think you should stay in the same job for more than a year or two, chances are you won't get much more out of it after then. If you're clever you can push your wage up pretty quickly like that too.
Some companies simply will not hire you without a degree, however that is not always the case. I have a decent Network Admin position and I only have two years of college. I have over 10 years of real world IT experience however which I (and my company) find more valuable.
They call it "networking" but I dislike this term as it has a well defined technical meaning.
There are Cisco networking certificates. Where can I go to get a certificate in the other kind of networking?
It is still possible, but it might take a while to obtain. The gatekeepers use the degree requirement as a way to weed through the multitude of applicants they get. They figure that a degree (in almost anything) shows that the applicant is able to apply him-/herself for at least four years. While I'll agree with many who say degrees are overrated, I will say this: they tell me that the applicant should have a basic body of knowledge. Experience is what lets us take book knowledge and make it work in the enterprise, so I'll favor experience any day. Sadly, I've seen both degreed and experienced people who simply can't make things happen in an enterprise. I'll assume you wouldn't fall into that categeory.
Unless you are well connected (a good network), it will be difficult to jump into a sysadmin position without a degree or significant prior experience. You may need to start in an entry level job and pray that you move through the ranks quickly. Alternately, and perhaps a better way for the enthusiast, would be to document all of the significant projects on which you've worked, and then seek out volunteer positions with non-profits. The non-profits will (most often) be more concerned about your skills, and since you won't be paid, they have less to lose in taking a chance on a non-degreed person. The non-profits will then give you those experience items on your resume (like a list of jobs--people perspective employers may call for references).
In any case, be sure to structure your resume to focus on your technical expertise, rather than your employment history. Start with a list of major projects and IT skills, then employment history, and finally education (if you have any degrees or certifications of any type). When preparing to interview, be sure to have stories and illustrations ready that demonstrate your level of skill, and the complexity of the environments in which you have served.
I landed my first two full-time IT gigs without a degree, but I started in support positions. Over time, I went back to school and earned a degree (in business management with an IT emphasis), mostly as a "just in case" degree--in case I ever needed to apply for another job, since degrees were starting to become a litmus test. In time, that degree served me well, and helped me to parley my way into some better positions.
So, it can be done, but it can be a long road.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Disregard that, I suck dicks.
Absolutely you can get a job and work in IT without a degree. However, that being said, it depends on the state of the economy where you live and who is doing the hiring how difficult it is compared to having a degree. In all likelihood without a degree you will have to start at a lower rung and work up till you have some experience doing what you want to do.
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Many of the smaller organizations I have worked for have had their IT responsibilities filled by one office worker who just happened to have an interest in computers. I.E. an engineer who knows how to configure a wireless router, or something like that. If you can figure out a way to get your foot in the office door, for some other purpose, like being a receptionist or some other kind of clerk, and you have the skills, and the patience, and get lucky, then you might.
But you shouldn't expect the big bucks. The reason such companies don't look for the IT specialists is because they are trying to get by on a shoestring budget. You would be daisy chaining $50 routers and fixing jammed printers for $8-10 per hour.
I personally would suggest either
I'm a senior software developer for a large fortune 500 company. I've had some college but didn't finish my degree. I rely heavily on my expertise to keep me competitive. A degree looks better to the PHB's but in the end they just need work to get done.
Ironically, the degree requirement is often disconnected from any technical ability. I know plenty of people who have undergraduate degrees in liberal arts, English, biology or other disciplines who work in IT.
What you can do is summarize projects you've worked on - if you have no experience, try to get internships if you can, though those positions might be slim pickings in the downturn.
Another place to get real experience, albeit without concomitant compensation, is doing work for nonprofits. You can do some free community service, and you get a resume bullet and a glowing recommendation from the nonprofit. Plus you can get a tax receipt for your work. This helps you build technical credibility to offset the lack of a degree.
There are often good reasons to work for free - it's worthwhile to work for free in order to learn a valuable skill or to get experience in a technology or business practice. You may get hungry while you're doing it, but if that's what it takes to open the door, take it.
One of the many other routes in the door to a good sysadmin job is the dreaded helpdesk. It's grunt work, but if you get in the door and are sharp, it's pretty easy to rise above the pack and lobby for a sysadmin opening when it comes along. An alternative path out is to get into a business analyst slot rather than a sysadmin - if you are really good at VBA and Crystal Reports, you can parlay that into a career, in fact it may be more lucrative than doing sysadmin work.
You'll note weasel words (or equivalent experience) in most job reqs (at least, if the employer wants to stay out of legal trouble.. Griggs vs Duke Power)
Practically speaking, though, it's a very tough row to hoe w/o a degree these days. The key is that it doesn't matter what degree or from where for the most part, assuming you have experience. If the degree is standing in for actual experience, then it does.
Does it HELP? Yes. You're likely to find that without a degree you have fewer prospects and make less money; that's where I'm stuck. That said, I have a job, and I'm making as much as I really need, even if I'd like to be making more. So it's not like it's impossible to get a decent job without a degree... it's just harder.
I graduated High School and took 2 semesters of college (didn't pass any classes)... I'd been a computer hobbyist my whole life and built linux servers and toyed with coding in almost every language.
Now I'm working as a sysadmin/network engineer for an elite technology architecture group in a fortune 500 company.
Some of the downsides of working in such a group is that I didn't have mandatory exposure to low-level networking stuff like some of my CS-majoring friends did... and they were also exposed to additional design patterns and optimization profiling (bigO notation, etc) that I didn't work with until I needed to, but overall, I've found that you can learn faster and be exposed to more useful technologies when you do it yourself.
I mean, what do they teach you in [american] higher education that pertains to IT? basic networking technologies and Java?
...spike
Ewwwwww, coconut...
i am a perfect example of how you CAN succeed in this field without a degree.
i was able to get some experience doing security and sysadmin work on the side for very very little money. this gave me SOME experience that i used on my resume to get a co-op position in a manufacturing company in the helpdesk.
i took this position and eventually pushed myself into a role where i was doing some system administration work. i volunteered for every project that was offered and did well in them. i worked late without taking overtime. i made suggestions when no one else would speak up.
now i'm the sysadmin for the company doing the job of three former employees at lower pay then any of them.
the point is that you CAN get a job without a degree but you have to get your foot in the door first! even if that means chugging out in the helpdesk for a few years in order to get seen by the higher ups. make sacrifices with pay and overtime initially and you will be rewarded in the future.
IT as a job title is pretty meaningless. You can't go up to someone and say I work in IT and expect them to have any idea what your job actually is. Even if they work in IT in the same company as you. It could be anything from someone who changes tapes for backups to a help desk worker to a project manager to software engineer to sys admin. Depending which of these you think you can just walk into will decide whether you need a degree or not. I'm going to assume that you think you will just walk in the door and be given root/admin to a bunch of boxes so you can start using your elite skills to run big brother on a bunch of machines to impress people. Chances are, without a degree you will find a job answering phones and running help desk scripts.
You see a lot of posts about how 15 years ago I broke in without a degree and now I run the world. Well, this isn't 15 years ago anymore. 15 years ago there weren't boat loads of 2 year tech and certification programs available. Experience is always the most important. A degree simply allows you to substitute it for some experience. No degree, no experience pretty much equals no job now, unless you have an inside.
Also, assuming you are young, just do the smart thing and find something else to do. IT sucks. ;)
Do yourself a favor and go to college. No matter how overpriced it is, you'll be better off in life with it than without it.
I'm not sure who you are addressing this to. I have a bachelors and a masters degree. Mine are non-technical. At the time I applied, I had a BS and MCSE and CCNA and 5+ years of experience. The HR department refuesed to pass my application on to the hiring department (I presume IT, but for all I know it was a customer service department) because I didn't have a degree in Computer Science. The only degree that counts as a degree was CS. Any other degree was counted as if they were a high school graduate, including if I were to re-apply now that I've completed an MBA.
Had they gone to college, they would have skills like critical thinking, leadership, and the ability to form complete sentences.
Well, I'm presuming from your attitude that you've completed college. However, you haven't managed basic reading skills. I said nothing that indicated someone shouldn't go to college. I indicated that I had gone to college (presumably an endorsement of it) and even after the experience I relayed, I went back for my masters (a further endorsement). And somehow you seem to take my comments to indicate that I'm supporting not getting a degree. I stated that someone may run into places where a degree is required (even when it shouldn't be) and thus will have limited access. However, even without a degree, one can still succeed. Starting off a reply with "sorry, but..." makes it sound like you are disagreeing, yet you said nothing that is in disagreement with what I've said. You essentially said "whether it is good or bad for your career, it is good for you personally." As for certs vs degrees, you are trolling. People with degrees like to claim superiority. However, I've seen nothing that supports that. I would guess that I have more degrees than you and more certs than you, and depending on what you are aiming for, one may be better suited than the other, but none of them are a reflection on the person holding them for anything more useful than sorting resumes. A degree is a cert, like all the others.
Learn to love Alaska
You're about five years to late. In the early 2000's you could get an A+ Certification and be on your merry way. Unfortunately, most companies share the saying that "People who can't do, do certifications." I still hang up my Comptia certs in my office so I can reflect on all those good memories.
i completely disagree... i meet people with computer sci degrees, who know absolutely nothing. i met a guy who used to work for microsoft had 3 computer degrees and still had to ask me questions on windows. i also met a programmer who had a degree in computer science and java programming who had no idea about computer hardware, who was in charge of the test lab at that location. the more computer sci grads i meet the smarter i feel
In my opinion college is overrated. And I'm glad I wont be paying for a 4-year degree for the rest of my life like the majority of my peers.
It's really all about gaining experience and being able to back it up. I started working on computers in high school, started playing with Linux, and teaching myself.
Since '05 I've had five tech jobs, most of them low-level support / computer tech jobs. But the more experience you gain, the better the positions offered.
I now work for a medium-sized company and wear the hats of IT Support, Mobility Manager (cell phones/aircards), and Linux guru.
PS - I'm not saying that a college degree isn't worth it. Because it totally is. But you should have an open mind. There are other ways to get ahead =)
Having a college diploma matters a lot in latin american countries. I grew up in Chile where they teach you "the diploma is everything" but that was not a problem with me. There, I dropped out of college with 3 semesters remaining, after a few weeks got IT job in a multinational corporation earning more than my 5-year experience graduated brother.
Now I live in the US and what I see here is they care a lot more about your experience. They even put "college degree or equivalent experience" in most job postings.
If you can't land the job you are seeking and you think your lack of degree is in the way, take the reasonably low salary for a couple of years so you have experience in your resume, then move on.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but 10 years ago was right in the middle of the dot com boom, when if you could power on a computer, you could probably get an IT job.
Unfortunately, with the economy the way it is right now, nobody is hiring without a degree unless the person has significant "professional" experience. Lacking that experience, you're shit out of luck without a degree. Hell, even with a degree it's difficult to find a job without experience.
He could try going the startup route, but that's difficult without experience. "I don't have references, but I've networked my mom's basement" usually doesn't cut it.
I'm sure it's theoretically possible to start out without a degree right now, but he'd make his life 1000x easier by just getting the degree.
Maybe not
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel."
Qualifications aren't just for show, they mean that you've extended your knowledge in the area and that someone has verified it.
But the question is often, "how well did anyone verify it?" There are lots of people who just barely squeaked by through college or their certifications, and so sometimes those qualifications don't mean as much as they're intended to.
I had a boss once who hired two college drop-outs and a guy with a CompSci degree and certs out the ying-yang all for the same job. Within a couple years, he'd promoted the two drop-outs and was busy looking for justification to fire the CompSci major because he was sloppy, slow, and had a bad attitude. These things happen.
What's more, I'd say that a lot of time, education is a poor band-aid to cover lack of experience. I don't mean to argue that education isn't important, but I've had a regular problem with computer science majors fresh out of college who are to focused on how things are "supposed to work". Like something breaks, and it's sitting there broken, and the recent grad sits there and tells me, "it's not supposed to do that!" So I'm thinking, "no shit, sherlock, if it was doing what it was supposed to, it wouldn't be 'broken', would it?"
In Argentina, where I live, there is not a single institution that is able to produce good IT professionals (in ANY field). I've been in both sides of the game, hiring and postulating, and the only thing we care about is experience and the ability to prove in an exam what you say you know...
According to USA Today, 20.4% of farmers have a 4 year degree and 90% of farmers are self-employed and the middle half of farmers earn from $766 to $1382 a week in 2006. College degrees and income are in line with the rest of America and self-employment is much higher than the rest of the population.
Why is it that a college educated person running a business, with millions of dollars of equipment is considered uneducated?
I've been in the industry for over 10 years now. Between my certifications and my experience, I have no problems getting interviews for higher level positions. Just last year I was recruited and offered a job by a well known defense contractor for a systems administrator position at one of their facilities near DC. Ultimately, I turned it down because it would've been a 2-3 hour commute every day, and at my current job, I'm 10 minutes away from work, but it was a nice ego boost.
That said, I think sometimes I'm "grandfathered in" so to speak. I stand out because of my experience. If you're new to the industry, I can see where not having a degree would be a problem, since of most of the entry level candidates will have one.
The main thing though is you're going to have to have SOME type of paper to back you up. Whether it's a 4 year degree, or a whole bunch of certifications, no one's going to want to talk to you without something on paper. It's just the way HR works. My advice is to get in on the ground floor somewhere as a desktop/network technician. If you can show an employer that you know what you're doing, you'll stand out and move up.
In these economic times there are few jobs and those there are have plenty of competition.
It's certainly possible, but it won't be easy unless you work very cheap
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
Yes, you can develop a good career in IT if you are smart, hard-working, and willing to do the "Dirty Work" initially (and even to some extent long-term). What I mean by "Dirty Work" is you need to plan on spending many hours outside of work learning technologies, understanding issues, and combin the internet for technology information. You need to be a talented problem solver (Do you like Logi Puzzles?) and you need to "Work Hard"! This last point I cannot stress enough.
I've managed to turn my lack of degree into a comfortable six-figure salary over time. I did it through hard-work and hard-study. I know much, much, more than the average (or even above average) college grad and I've consistently delivered during my career.
Now, that being said, I really wouldn't recommend this road. It's tough!
I have a lot of regrets. I know I've had to work twice as hard as my peers to achieve recognition. There are still jobs, that I would love to pursue, for which it is difficult to get my foot in the door for lack of degree.
I would strongly recommend you not worry about getting a "Good Job" without a degree and instead focus on how you can get a degree without bankrupting yourself or starving to death. You may be, like me when I was young, thinkging you have no choice other than to work to survive, but, trust me, you have more choices than you think. You really, really need to consider whether you want to go down the "No Degree" road, because, once you do, it is very difficult to change later.
If you stick with the degree route as long as possible, you can always change to the "No Degree" route easily later. Changing back from the "No Degree" route to "Hey, I think I want a degree after all" is much, much more difficult.
Does anyone else have similar experience?
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
That being said your first few jobs are probably going to have to suck while you amass some experience. Once you have four or five years of experience, it'll be a lot easier to find positions and companies that will take you seriously.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Currently without a degree I am leading a team of sysadmins managing around 600 servers spread across a large geographical area. I got here based on luck, making the right impression at the right time before I was available for another job. If you get a job in a high turnover, high tempo environment you can easily get experience and progress if you know what your doing.
For example, i am currently working in a warzone as a sysadmin team lead for 400-500 servers spread around the country. I work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week making excellent money. When I took this job I had no professional linux/windows system administration experience. What I did going for me was that I owned RedHat 4.x back in 1996 and have been a linux fanboy since. So 12 years of using linux variants in my spare time got me in this position, and will sustain myself and my family for many decades with the experience I have now.
wow, that's the really crappiest reason to attend university I've heard in a long time and I'm very very glad you're not my employee.
What is the person was in the military and did the same exact job you're hiring for his 4 years? Will that weigh in with a degree? The military has more hoops than any higher eduction.
I dropped out of high school early in my academic career and did not go to college. I did get my GED and took one or two certification courses, only to eventually pass the Network+ and quit the rest.
I now work for a fortune 500 for several years as an SA and really enjoy my work. I'm fairly confident if I got laid off tomorrow I could find work in a month or two. (Partly that's because I branched out and am a competent programmer so I can take contract gigs until another SA position of equal value crops up)
Now, there is something to be said for having a BS depending on the career you're aiming for. Working in academia and probably certain sections of the gov't requires proof that you're not a total crackpot. I've been offered nice jobs only to be later turned down by the same people once they realized I never went to college. In the future it might get more important as the field becomes more flooded with even better-qualified applicants from overseas who require less compensation while providing skills of equal or better value.
Bottom line: if you can, get your degree. It's a good way to network for the future, a good way to learn to work with others and secures you a little better position when future hiring managers are diff'ing resumes looking for which one to interview.
There are definitely companies out there that have very strange ideas of what qualifies someone to do a particular kind of tech work. This place you reference, that refused to consider you because you didn't have a CS degree - even though you [i]have[/i] a degree - is plain stupid. I'm not saying it's purely anecdotal; I think there are way more places like that than you'd expect. But I also think that the vast majority of companies that have tech positions to fill are not so rigid. Good hiring managers know that technology is a moving target, and that the most important thing is to get someone who has an aptitude for the work, can roll with the punches and grow with the position.
Maybe it's just sour grapes, but I suspect that had you been hired into that position, you would have ultimately hated working for that company. As I've gotten older, I've come to realize that the ideas that come from company management are not the best ones just because they come from company management. Companies are comprised of people, and most people are average. Sometimes, you'll get a situation where the person making the decisions is below average, and that's when you end up with stupid crap like requiring a CS degree for front-line tech support. On the other side of that spectrum is creating laminated flow charts and expecting to be able to put low-paid monkeys in front-line tech support positions, but that's a whole other thread.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
Two weeks ago I just got a "Faculty" position at a major university... I was hired with no degree, and less than a year completed in College. The job pays well (>$50K/yr) and it is definitely sysadmin work. I now admin a Beowulf Cluster.
Sadly high school degrees have been degraded by requiring less and less of students in the US. Still, employers really want them as well as college degrees.
But the real ice breaker is when you can demonstrate work that is original and of blatantly obvious value to prospective employers. For example if you can create a real killer of a game and let the prospective employer know that it is your work you will gt the job and get paid big time.
Many universities teach you different things. We're not talking hidden trade skills or secret knowledge about standards (oxymoron), but rather skills for the rest of your life. Like how to learn, how to interact with people in a professional setting, the time to meet people, prestige, and more.
They're called institutions for a reason, as they give a "prescribed education". You don't need them as has been proven over and over and over again, but in today's business world, it's nice to have proof you know how to learn.
It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.
And it's absolutely true. Absent seriously special circumstances, I would not consider hiring someone without a college degree.
'Tis a shame the max for mod points is 5.
If you truly value experience over credentials, the experienced non-degree candidate gives you exactly that. In fact, they have nothing else to sell.
There are a few other benefits as well. Thanks to the mechanics of HR departments, the non-degree candidate is not likely to be a job hopper. Their only path to success is to pick up new skills and fully dominate the challenges in front of them. One other bonus: Never having to listen to someone trying to win an argument with the "But I have a degree!" logic. That alone makes the non-degree strategy worth considering.
The only downside is that people learn some useful skills in college. You need to verify that your candidate learned those skills somewhere (preferably at the expense of some other employer).
Considering the increasing number of foreign candidates with bogus degrees, the number of non-degree IT workers is much higher than anyone is willing to admit. The majority of offshore people have real degrees, but fakes are certainly out there. It certainly explains the occasional MSCS with third grade English skills who trips over a SQL select statement. Being a foreigner is not a prerequisite for having a fake degree, but it helps when the school in question has language and time zone barriers that interfere with verification. And of course, technology favors the fakers.
I once worked in government. They were REALLY strict about checking transcripts. About 5% turned out to be bogus -- people whose degree claims could not be substantiated with transcripts mailed from the school. The percentage of fakes would have been much higher, but the verification was limited to finalists -- people who were probably getting a job offer if their references checked out. God only knows how many fakes we would have caught if we considered H1-Bs or did a full verification on all candidates. I was originally hired as an entry-level temp, and reluctantly admitted by the HR department (only after they realized that I had accepted an offer and it was too late for them to say no). Thirteen years and 6 promotions later I still had no degree, but I was much higher in the org chart. As a department manager, I had candidates getting their applications tossed for bogus degree claims, while I had none in the first place. And of course, we hired contractors who were somehow exempt from the process.
If your company's degree verification is anything less than superb, you can assume that 5% of your co-workers have fake degrees.
No matter what a job requirement might claim, employers HIRE experience. Degrees are a screening criteria -- simply a reason to NOT hire a candidate. It allows the HR department to take a large stack of resumes and turn it into a smaller stack. If the stack is already small, the degree requirement is suddenly less important.
Some candidates think they can get hired by eliminating all of the reasons why employers are saying "No". To me, this is impossible. The excuses never end. I think it's much more productive to work on things that make employers say "Yes".
Some fields are truly credentials-based. You get the credential and sooner or later someone hires you. Getting into the field is merely a numbers game -- put enough paper in play, conduct a reasonable interview, and wait.
IT hiring has always been more like the world of dating. No matter what we SAY we want (personality, honesty, compatibility, etc.), the REALITY is different. An attractive person walks into the room and all heads turn. We preach the importance of degrees until a highly experienced candidate walks into the room, causing the discussion to shift dramatically.
For what it's worth: I have over 20 years of experience in practically every job you can get in the IT industry. Although I have no degree, my career has been a great success. Not everyone should follow my example, but no one should be discouraged about the possibilities.
I tell IT people to plan their educ
Hopefully the industry hasn't changed TOO much, but I can tell you from experience that you can definitely do that, but you'll need to start at the bottom first. You really need to have experience managing hundreds (more or less) machines before you can handle servers and other equipment. Learn your TCPIP. Become a guru in one OS, and it'll be easy for you to master other OS's. Finally have faith in yourself and if it's something you want to do, don't listen to naysayers. Just will it into being.
I studied engineering physics, but had to leave school due to family issues. I had been self-employed since high school in IT, then went to work for a university spin-off in aerospace engineering. I was there for 2.5 years, where I worked my way up from a 20hr/week "computer guy" to full-time IT and R&D engineer. I had a job with Cessna (which due to the economy they reneged on), and now I work for a large (10k employee) consumer electronics company based in Kansas on a team of software engineers that supports internal company applications. Generally, I help make developers lives easier. I have excellent health insurance, a 401k, job security, and nobody questions my education. One of these days I'll get that piece of paper though...
I have gone the no degree route and have been very fortunate. You need to realize though that those with degrees put in time at school and earned some equity from just doing it. You need to make your own personal equity. Networking with others in the field and outside the field (opportunities come from the most unlikely sources). Volunteer at a local non profit, they can always use some help and people take notice of this. In my location there has been a resurgance of user groups. Interestingly enough they are unabashedly less technical and more oriented towards making contacts, as well as vertical or horizontal movement. Flexibility is important too! You may want a sys admin job but a stint on a helpdesk will get you in the door. Once in offer suggestions and improvements to the admins but know your place. I caught some flack on this one in an earlier post but I still believe in it. A person that works well in a team (doesn't bully his ideas) is more appealing for a promotiion. Hang out for after hours maintenance and help is allowed to. These things will build the personal equity you need to overcome the lack of paper...trust me it works.
I don't know about in general, but I am an anecdotal example of being able to get a job without a degree.
I'm an senior software engineer with Red Hat, and am not degreed. Granted, I've been in school for a several years now in order to get my degree, but did not have one when I was hired three years ago.
Prior to that I have had several very good paying jobs as a developer all based on my experience and not my education. But, when the economy slumped in 2002 I was laid off for an extended period and had a problem finding work. Most employers then were filtering out candidates based on a lack of degree or lack of anything less than a masters.
Darryl L. Pierce "What do you care what people think, Mr. Feynman?"
I see lots of people saying that you don't need a degree and I have to agree, sometimes. The problem is that there are a certain number of jobs that will only go to people who have degrees. It often doesn't matter what the degree is in but to even interview for those jobs you'll have to have some sort of degree. You have to remember that you are dealing with personnel weenies many times and they have a list of qualifications that have to be filled by an applicant. If college degree is on that list and you don't have one they won't even give you an interview. The guys/gals in IT won't care but it's on the list for Personnel so that's the way it's going to be. So if you can get a degree of some sort it's one sort of ticket that can't ever be taken away from you. Truth to tell it doesn't even matter what the degree is in. Mine's in music from back in the 70's and I've still had interviews where that particular ticket was enough to get me in the door. AG
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
I can say from my own experience "yes". But I was lucky that I got a foothold when the industry was desperate for people - during the dot com bubble. They'd take on anyone at the time, and fortunately they did for me. I kept my head down, worked hard and ended up as a Java Technical Architect years later with 8 years professional experience. Which - lets face it - means I'm a 1000x more employable that someone with just a degree!
I got lucky tho. It hard times I'd expect it's nigh on impossible to get that "first experience" whether you've a degree or not.
Who's to say I didn't mail it in to get through school, and continue to mail it in day after day at work? "It's a problem of motivation, alright? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime..."
Absolutely. Will it happen right away? No. You've got to be willing to work at it. It's taken me nearly 10 years to get the IT Manager position I have now, but I have no degree. I've been through plenty of not so great jobs along the way, but always with a goal in mind. Don't be discouraged if it seems like you are being overlooked for jobs you want or have hit a wall. My greatest strides have come in the last 3 years. 3 years ago I was sitting in a cubicle answering phones and walking clients through software installs. Today I have quadrupled my salary and have my dream job. My family and I are finally reaping the benefits of a lot of hard work. In the beginning take whatever meaningful work you can get. Potential for experience to be earned trumps salary starting out. I've also found that there are basically 2 breeds of employers - ones who put all their stock in degrees and ones who hire based on reputation and experience. IMHO those who look solely at a degree and deem you qualified/unqualified for a job are idiots. Many college graduates don't know the first thing about running a network. Conversely some of the most intelligent people I have ever known dropped out of college or never went at all. I don't think a degree ever hurts if you can afford it or have a scholarship or some financial assistance, but it's not the end all be all of the IT world. It's really just a matter of patience and finding the right employer - someone who hires based on track record vs fancy papers. Or as so many other comments have noted - work for yourself. No papers required. All that matters is results. Good luck.
I'm a Jr. Admin and there's no sign in site that I'm going to stop climbing anytime soon. I spent a couple of go-nowhere years in higher education.
A degree is great for many obvious reasons but consider the recruiter's perspective: you have 200 applications on your desk for one position. 100 of these either don't include a resume or have a generic, irrelevant resume that tells you the applicant saw your job posting and added it to the massive list of places to which they're applying. 50 or so are overqualified. 50 or so sound about right. Which of the 50 gets the job? The one with the prettier piece of paper?
If someone already inside the potential employer knows you, likes you, and thinks you could handle the job even if you're a little underqualified (or a little overqualified), your name just went to the top of the list of 50. The only place that has hired me without knowing me first was Wendy's- and they weren't going to hire me until I came in and made a good impression!
It's all about the People style of networking. Speaking of which, if you'd like to chat about breaking into the industry or just add another IT industry contact to your list, shoot me an email!
And hey, same goes for any IT folks looking to network!
Here's my take on it - you can get a job, depending on the job. It probably won't be a great one, and you'll have to work that much harder to establish yourself on merit.
My own abbreviated story behind that rationale: I went to college for a couple of years in the '80s. Left and got an entry-level (at the time) job doing training and support for a computer store. I mainly drifted between sales and support jobs at resellers for several years and made squat, but it was a way to be in the biz. Then one of my customers hired me to run the systems they'd installed. From there, I wound up gaining enough real-world experience (and, as we grew, I got a small staff to manage) to be useful. When it became time to move on, though, my lack of a degree was a factor. I wound up with a good job after that, and gained more experience and expertise (along with a larger staff), but that job went away when the office I worked at got shrunk back in '03. And the lack of a degree was definitely a factor again in looking for jobs afterwards - in fact, there was one I would have absolutely gotten (I found this out after the fact), but for that lack.
I wound up striking out on my own, and have managed to do quite well with my own company (we employ several other people as well), but that's really the first job where it hasn't mattered somewhat. I'm probably at a point now where age and experience outweigh the lack of formal credentials. But it took over 20 years to get there. So as much as you don't _need_ a degree, it certainly makes life easier, especially early on.
It doesn't have to be an IT-related degree, though. I'd say study whatever interests you the most, so long as you take at least some classes to help you with what you want to do for a living.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck? What is there to tell me that you won't just coast and accept said check and mail it in, day after day after day?
You're right... It might have been my military experience that got me the job, if jumping through hoops and being willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want are qualifications... haha
I've been coding and doing my own learning from an early age, much akin to I'm sure many others who read Slashdot, amongst other sites. All too often people mistake the lack of a formal degree as a lack of an education. The two are not one in the same.
Can one get a good job in the field without an Education. No. This doesn't exclude those who are self educated and make serious investments in their self-education and self-evaluation of weaknesses so as to better improve oneself. There are bound to be deficiencies in a non-formally educated individual as they may opt (at first) to ignore that which they don't see as relevant or boring, just as the formally educated I've found (with little exception) are educated in a 'box' if you will, and are more oft than not horribly averse to venturing outside of that comfort zone even when a project dictates as such.
A passion for the art as well as the discipline to learn on ones own are what are truly necessary. The degree while required at some places is less meaningful as years of experience are attained. Getting ones foot into the door at their first professional position proves to be the hardest part.
Eric Elinow http://www.codedevl.com/
Seriously... Go apply at McDonalds.
Is this a joke?
I was a IT Coordinator at the age of 18. IT Manager by the age of 19.
It may not be the simplest thing to get an IT position for a large OIL/Gas company downtown as an example. But as for smaller businesses 50-200 employees, if you take a chance and actually apply and have a touch of experience, chances are if they are seriously looking for someone to fill the position, they will keep you in mind.
On another note, I'd just like to mention that most companies don't even care about certifications. Just keep in mind that you may have to start out with a position at the bottom of the chain like desk-side support. But if you stick with it and prove yourself you won't stay there for long.
There are temp agencies that "farm out" IT techs to larger businesses. I don't think they REQUIRE a degree, just that you pass their basic computer knowledge test before they start placing you in positions in their client's firms.
Having at least an A+ certification would obviously help, but if you show them you're smart and ambitious, they'll start placing you higher.
I can tell you from experience that an CS Degree and even certifications aren't that important, if you're willing to work your way up the ladder. What you do is get placed at various companies for a short duration as a temp, get some experience. When you find a good enough temp spot at a company you click with, talk with your immediate superior at the firm about hiring you away from the temp agency.
It can be done (as I said, I speak from experience), but it can also be a rocky road. Hang in there though - like I said, it's more important that you're smart, dedicated and able to solve problems.
ttyl
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I think it has more to do with how bureaucratic the company is than with how "snobby" it is. Often in larger companies the job requirements will be made up by someone from HR who doesn't really have anything to do with the position that they're hiring for, and "must have a degree" gets tacked on to the job listing more or less arbitrarily.
It has been a while since I've been involved in interviewing / hiring anyone in IT, but here's my opinion and experience. Disclosure: I have a (4-year) degree with an area of concentration in Computer Science.
I'm not so interested in the piece of paper of the degree, but I am interested in the (typically 4) years prior where you spend your time learning, and developing an understanding of computing, computer architecture, computer science, software engineering, problem solving, and time management. One small but critically important lesson is learning how finite your knowledge is. That they are people who know "more" than you do. Other lessons include dealing with success, failure, pressure, and interacting with others.
In my experience the self-taught IT person may be capable, but at least as many are not. Interpersonal skills are probably the biggest unknown. Some are insecure or "have a chip on their shoulder" about the differentiation between degreed and not. Some may have excellent knowledge of all-but-obsolete technology (DOS batch files wizard?) and try to solve every problem with what they know, rather than looking for a "proper" solution (one that is better suited).
So if you have a decent understanding of the fundamentals and a desire to learn more, then you're a good potential candidate.
The biggest problem is that you are not likely to get hired through an advertised job position. The competition between candidates with degrees and HR staff who are risk adverse will likely throw out your resume along with the 200 other people not short-listed to give to the hiring manager. So you likely want to learn about business 'networking' to find unadvertised jobs, often through friends and colleagues who know that you are capable and worth considering. In this case your resume is given directly to the hiring manager, without the HR 'filter' process.
If/when you can afford it and have time, you may want to seriously consider getting "something" for post-secondary education or 'professional' training in IT to show not only education, but genuine interest and initiative.
I don't know if that explains / helps any.
honestly, as a hiring manager for R&D for some 10+ years, i look for seasoned veterans with skill sets required. I dont care if you have a degree. i know admins and coders who can code and manage unix systems much better then someone who has no hands on experience. id rather take the guy who used and administered linux or bsd at home and used it as their primary desktop then some who doesnt know what a c prompt is. I hired one guy was barely old enough to go to college but was a far better more capable coder then the college grad from a top uni. id say hands down with me, certifications and degrees dont hold much water. as im 50ish now and i never graduated college, hell never went to college, never stopped me from earning 300K a year.... dont let it stop you either
A lot of comments are eluding that if you have a degree there is no way to gain experience? How would starting out with a degree be any different then starting out without a degree? Both have zero experience, but at least one shows they have atleast some sort of ability. I will be graduating with an IT degree while having 2 years experience...
Who's gonna hire you if you're the kind of person who did phone support?
Working the phones is often a foot-in-the-door kind of job. There's no shame in starting on the phones... If you're still there after 10 years, though, that's kinda bad.
I started on helpdesk in college, then worked the phones at another job, then worked my way into a junior sysad role at the same company. Left that job, worked as sysad/web monkey, then moved into senior sysad roles, leading teams of other sysads.
In my last role as the tech guy in a small biz partnership, I hired my successor off of the phones at another company. He'd just finished college, and I could tell that he was bright and ambitious. I knew he was bright because he did well in the technical interview, and I knew he was ambitious because he'd found ways to challenge himself on and off the job (which isn't easy to do in big callcenters).
In short, if you're going to skip the diploma (or even if you do get one), be prepared to put some time in the trenches in order to demonstrate your worth. The people who do hiring are most interested in seeing what you've done, not what you say you can do.
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
You know, it's real funny your asking this question. I was just going over this myself. I find you will need: 1.)Either industry certifications with experience. Or 2.) College degree with experience. It is so HILARIOUS that some people say your Doomed unless you get a degree. Typically these are the people you want to stay away from. Yes, it's good to get/finish a degree. Yes, it's good to get industry certs. Even better if you have all the above with experience. I've worked for the world's 3rd largest oil conglomerate in I.T. Perhaps you've heard of them, they go by the name Schlumberger. They hired me based on personality, skill set, and the desire to grow/learn. Yes, it is possible to work your way through, but you will find it easier to obtain the "good IT" job with certs or degree. So if you choose the certs way. Force yourself to do two things. One buy the right book and two READ it. Then you can go take a test and pass the test. Good luck to all of you who have made it through College/Certs/Hard work. I commend all of you who are in inspiration to me.
That's not completely true. You can also do well going to a trade school instead of college.
Assuming you can follow instruction well, you could also join the military. I know it sounds crazy, but with the incoming administration, deployment rates will likely drop significantly. Plus, you'll at least have a solid job for ~4+ years. I joined the Chair...erm, I mean "Air" Force and served on active duty for 4 years. I only had a few college credits when I joined, and I have yet to finish my degree. However, the experience I gained in the military really shines on my resume, and I'm happily making just under 6 figures only 1.5 years after separating.
Nevertheless is one word. I'm not picky, but you did ask. And I'm pretty sure service-oriented should be hyphenated in this context, but I'm not 100% positive on that. Most English speakers don't handle compound adjectives well.
If you've got some skill and ambition then you can get a job, but you've got to be willing to do it for less pay. I went to a dice.com job fair and accepted a paid internship to prove my worth. I had no job experience and no degree at the time, but I had a kid on the way and was in college for computer science. A great company gave me a shot because they could see the determination in me and that means a lot to many companies. Its a year later and I'm a mid-level programmer and I got my BS and my family is going to celebrate a fruitful holiday. If you put in the effort, and play office politics the right way, you'll get the job and income you want sooner or later.
I had no (IT-related) degree when i started working in a pc shop. Then after working there for some time i moved to a junior admin job, learned alot there and got some minor degrees (CCNA, some MCP's). Now i got a job where i'm a sysadmin for several companies and studying for extra certifications (NCLE passed, now doing RHCE) to get a bigger salary and have a better base for when i move to my next job. And if i spent some more time studying IT-related stuff instead of gaming i would have been there a lot sooner.
Just start your own business. You don't need an employer if you already have a computer. Just start writing an interesting program or start offering some sysadmin service, you alone or with friends. No degree needed. No investment needed other than your own effort and time. I really cannot understand why everyone skips entrepreneurship as something remote or utopian and only thinks of becoming an employee when realising that they need some income. I can understand that you would prefer to become an employee if your specialty is about aerospace engineering because the tools of your job are more readily found in companies rather than at home, but with computers you already have anything you need to start producing. You only need creativity and intelligence.
I would say that a degree isn't absolutely necessary but highly recommended. Even more important than a degree is if it's something that you're naturally interested in. As in would you still pursue it even if you didn't make all that much money? Do you spend hours keeping yourself updated on what's new and tinker at home regardless if it's job relevant? If you do then I suspect you're am amazing tech. However, I would still say going to University is a good thing. It teaches you to handle stress and to learn quickly. More importantly, I had a chance to work with others. While a degree isn't always a sign of a good candidate, it's a sign they have the strength and will to at least accomplish a goal. Don't forget too that there's lots of IT candidates out there. Sometimes when it comes down to it a degree might be the only way to distinguish two candidates apart. I know it played a part in my current system admin job. Finally, don't expect to make a 6 figure income in IT. I certainly don't. I enjoy what I do and my pay is very reasonable. It's taken me a while to get where I am and I have to admit I didn't have the best luck in the world but it did work out in the end. The fact that you emphasize on money has me worried. As it's long been said, take a job because you like doing it. Even if it's a great paying job, it will cost you your health and life in the end if you don't like what you're doing.
3 years of college, no degree. 17 years in IT. I am among 33 System Administrators that support 7,000 + UNIX and Linux servers enterprise-wide for a leading drug retailer. Nothing I learned in college even applies to what I do for living. I would say, depending on the company, getting a sysadmin job is easier than you think. When in the interviews, talk up your UNIX or Linux experience. It will go a long way.
Reading the posts I agree with most of them. I work as a team lead and perform the interviews, etc. I, personally, have a BS in computer science and looking at a MS. I look more for experience than for a degree. But if it is an entry level position, and I have two junior candidates, one with a degree and one without a degree, I will opt for the degreed candidate. The degree tells me the person will put up with the BS (no pun intended). If you do not have the degree and you are looking for a job in IT, then be prepared to accept a job in operations monitoring systems until you can get the experience required.
I got my first sysadmin job at 19, no degree. I had been an intern at a software shop for a couple years, and I had friends working there. It was a tier I backbone.
But I knew my stuff. Degree's are not required, just know you stuff, and I mean KNOW your stuff. Stop listening to people who tell you what you need, and figure it out yourself.
Yes you are able to get a good IT job with out a degree or certifications. I am an IT Director with some college experience and w/o any IT Certification.
My experience is the strong point of my resume of 15+ years of IT related positions, starting out in Help Desk.
Slowly but surely I have work my way up to IT Director.
I do admit that education is key to have on a resume and is likely to get you in the door for a interview if you don't have experience to back you up.
But learning on the job is much better that going to a 5 crash course for a program.
I've been building computers since I was about 11 years old, and have always played with computers and their software as a hobby. I've administered my systems at home running websites, databases, etc. After high school, I got a job doing security systems, satellite TV, cable TV installs, all sorts of things *not* computer-related.
Being a member of TCBUG (Twin Cities BSD User Group, http://tcbug.org/), I came across a job posting for a FreeBSD sysadmin, and interviewed for the job. I was able to prove I was knowledgeable and overcame the hurdle of not having a degree, due to the many 'hobby' hours I put in tinkering. Even without a degree, http://payscale.com/ indicates I'm above the 50th percentile for my salary range.
That being said, get a degree if you can. Life will be much easier and you might learn something. I don't recommend the non-degree path as there's a certain stigma in white-collar jobs for people without a degree.
What you say is absolutely true for a programmer, but I am not sure why it's relevant to a system administrator.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
...start your own business.
And here I thought that college was just a way to prove you know how to spend an exorbitant amount of money to have someone who isn't actually in the field teach you something you could learn on your own with outdated equipment and concepts.
Sure you can get an IT-related job without a BA or candidate degree. It just wont be the highpaying stuff or private-sector unless you know someone who know someone etc.
I, for instance, am working temporarily for the danish government in switching from old hardware to new hardware in the different branches (about 4000 machines or so) with a salary of 130 danish kroner an hour (that's about $22 an hour). Not really a brainy job, but relative to the users you get the pleasure of being the local Einstein on call.
Today we were switching out computers in a mental institution. What saved my day was someone asking me to install Ubuntu on their box off the books. I was paid in coffee and pastry. I do have a BA though, in philosophy.
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
I second this. In the US, college degrees are actually becoming less important because managers are realizing that, on average, non-technical colleges don't actually help the student get experience. They just get them to jump through hoops, which is not particularly useful when you need someone with experience in problem solving and innovative thinking.
As others have recommended, just look for entry level jobs that will gain you experience. This also will enable you to increase your flexibility, since you'll likely learn many different skills, and have the opportunity to become proficient in all of them. The more diversified you are the more valuable you are.
As a personal testimony, I only have an associates degree in Computer Science (2 years) but I've worked for a couple small companies and have ended up with fairly stable and enjoyable work for the past 10 years.
The way I see it is that you can get to the same place with or without a degree. It just might take a bit longer.
:P
If you know your stuff all you really need is an interview. To get an Interview you need experience backing the technical acronyms on your CV
The only formal training I have received is 13 years in the Marine Corps.
I was an aviation mechanic.
I dabbled in computers as a hobby (Commodore64 and the Amiga) when I got out of the service I was fortunate enough to get a job just running a computer elearning center. As the company grew and also imploded I found myself being the Network admin for the company.
When I grew tired of(The company was not investing in new technology)I searched for 2 years to find something that would advance my career.
There are numerous companies out there who love to waste your time with false promises. Make sure you don't leave your current position and take a vacation that coincides with your start date. That way you have something to fall back on and you don't make the mistake of finding yourself in a company that has the same mentality of the one you are trying to leave.
I got lucky after 2 previous employers who I told I don't think this position is going to work for me. I landed a job where the growth potential was extraordinary. I have learned so much in the 2 years in this new company.
Linux projects, new servers, new desktops, Full support contracts and windows projects. I love it here.
I have no certs. But I did attend a class for Server 2000, Cisco CCNA and CCDP. I never took the tests but the classes taught me a lot of basics about networking and Active directory.
CCNA was important so that I became familiar with the command line within our Cisco Routers and our Pix Firewalls.
Sure I paid a lot for taking those classes but the home study method doesn't work for me.
Heh. Haskell is a novelty teaching language that is seen outside the academic sphere about as often as the Dodo.
Nobody makes a living writing Haskell.
Excellent, well said, & correct:
Degree tracks in comp. sci., & imo @ least, especially in courses like DataStructures for example, lend you insight into things that ON YOUR OWN TOTALLY, you'd mess around for weeks/months trying to figure out something as efficient in, IF you ever can figure it out @ all, purely on your own!
(Sorts are a prime example, especially when combined with searches of data that is in a more "raw form" than you find in say, an indexed database, such as raw text for example. I saw some replies here saying "I will never have to do a sort", yea? B.S. - when you're going after data in text files, logs, or other things that do not have a 'Prebuilt script kiddie tool" to do it for you? You'll learn, & very fast, how valuable sorts are... especially for HUGE AMOUNTS of DATA, & then searching thru it for specifics, repeated items, etc. et al)
You'd most likely never get it right, or as right as it can be, if you did not have the training & insights a degree in comp. sci. gives you - especially in algorithms that are proven and work.
Imo @ least?
Anyone in this field, without a degree in computer sciences, especially ones without years (preferably decades) of experience under their belt hands-on in the trenches doing the jobs MIS/IS/IT entails?
Those guys are just "playing music via tablature, instead of actually reading & UNDERSTANDING, music"...
(Anyone who is musically inclined will know EXACTLY what I mean here, because it is exactly what you stated, albeit, in regards to music rather than comp. sci.)...
I.E.-> They're script kiddies, to-the-max, who most likely only know a LIMITED set of things to do in this arena anyhow, and are heavily dependent on tools to do the job for them, but those kinds of "IT GUYS" have very little understanding of what is actually going on (& without that level of understanding? You can't fix things that you do NOT understand in detail, intimately).
Yes, you can get an IT job without a degree, but it does limit your pool of jobs as many corporations REQUIRE a college degree for certain positions. Many don't care what the degree is in but they do require one.
I am a netwok technician for a large construction company, and do not currently hold any computer related degrees. I graduated college for graphic design and 3d animation, but was looking to improve my portfolio while i was in the real-world making good money....I luckilly was able to start in a field position doing dispatch and started learning the computer systems and messing around with effeciency - I have had experience coding C and most other languages, so I created a database application that allowed alot of our daily reporting activities to be streamlined throughout the company - I was doing this on the side (without the blessing of the I.T. dept). The project was a hit and got implemented across the whole region, and is still in use today. While I was working on all of this, the I.T. department had expressed an interest in me and we talked about me possible going there when I was finished with the implementation. It was a good opportunity, and I have been in my current position for over two years.. I had no prior experience with any OS level stuff, no network infrastructure experience, no hardware experience, and we also run alot of PLC's and plant controller systems that I had nooo idea about when I started. I was never discouraged, and even today I get into things that I am completly new to.... I have learned an immense amount and consider myself to be doing very well currently - I am 23. I enjoy the work (although I know it is not a career for me - not creative enough) and I get to learn constantly, which makes it all worthwile. Since I never grew up as a kid saying "I want to work on computers!", sometimes it is discouraging being just another cog in a wheel, and sacraficing alot for the good of the network.. but things are the same wherever you go it seems... My coworker currently does not hold a degree or any certifications; and my immediate boss was a AS400 programmer and learned computers while they still had punch card readers....needless to say we make it work very well and are always pushing eachother further. We run a very secure network with amazing uptime, and service over 400 users in 20 sites between the 3 of us.
Part of what I was trying to say here is that there are many companies who may not be super tech inclined, but will give someone a chance if they can display knowlege and seem like they will be able to roll with the punches. (and youll still get to implement cool new tech) It also may not be a bad idea to start low and work your way up - especially if there is a company you have your eye on. Its one thing to have a great piece of paper and one shot to show yourself off, but it is much easier to show you will work hard and do what it takes to get the job done...Good luck! - Mike Forgione
I meant that universities have outdated equipment and concepts...
For all the people with 10 plus years in the industry, don't think that because it did work and go smooth for all of us way back, the current climate allows it as easely.
So you're under the misguided assumption that University actually teaches you important skills that are used in the pursued career?
Listen: college didn't teach me anything I didn't already know about software engineering. Mostly it just took up my time and my money. Showing a willingness to jump through those hoops for the end goal (a degree) was apparently enough to interest my employer, who hired me as an intern. I learned more working on the job in my first 2 months than I did the entire 4 years of University combined.
Add to this was our University president, who at commencement stated "Remember: an undergraduate degree does not mean you are educated. It simply means that you are educatable."
The whole point he was trying to get across was that we didn't go for an undergraduate degree to learn the subject matter so much as we obtained an undergraduate degree to learn how to learn.
The thought process is "teach a man to learn, and he will learn his entire life".
I have been a Senior Systems Engineer for a company employing over 6,000 people. I was a Senior Security Engineer for a large Medical and Insurance company employing over 270,000 employees and now a Director of IT for a furniture manufacturer. I never finished High School, I've taken two art classes in college and to top things off, I don't even have any tech certifications. Although I am an expert, 90% of my career has been socially engineered. I'm a likable guy. If you are good at what you do and can sell yourself, and education means nothing in IT.
Seek Christ the Lord!
If you're not going to go get the degree, you have to compensate for it by being more competent than you otherwise would have to be to get the same job. When I walk into a job interview people look at my resume, and bang, strike one. I have to make up for that by being better than their other candidates by enough to overcome the bias. You say you're an enthusiast, but almost everybody trying to get an entry level position at any decent company in this industry is to some extent. The question becomes, are you better than most enthusiasts with degrees?
If I had it to do over again, I'd just get a degree. With the economy in the crapper, now's the perfect time to do it. If I didn't love my job and have a mortgage to pay I'd probably do it myself.
By the way, there's always the tech support route. It's real easy to get a tech support job without a degree. Sure, the work sucks, but you get your foot in the door somewhere. If you're good, you can move out of there into a "real" job. The flip side to that is that a resume with nothing but tech support on it might actually be worse than no resume at all. There have been "Ask Slashdots" about that before.
Game... blouses.
Despite never getting my BSEE degree, I have been able to work more or less continually since I decided to switch careers from engineering into computers.
Originally, I was living at home and taking classes for my BSEE, when I had to start working part time jobs for tuition. Gradually, my interest in having money in my pocket began to occlude my vision of graduating, and I went from one job to the next, each time taking steps and making decisions designed to increase my income, at the ultimate expense of my education. I went from full-time classes to three-quarter load to half as my hours and responsibilities at work increased.
Eventually, I got a job as an electronic technician and ratcheted my engineering classes down to part-time. After that, it was merely a matter of time (and a series of jobs as an electronic technician) before I eventually landed a job as a junior engineer while attending night classes. It was there that I first came into contact with professional programming.
It was the early 80's and an idle Apple ][ computer was in the engineering lab, so I started tinkering with machine code and Applesoft BASIC on it and eventually produced an automated testing tool for my company's photocells (the kind that are used to turn on/off streetlights). A rack of photocells was placed on the roof of the building and a cable brought down and connected to two add-on parallel i/o ports; the software would periodically scan the ports and record the time when the photocells switched; this could be correlated against sunrise/sunset times, indicating which cells were defective. Although a simple project, I loved it.
When it became time to look for my next job, I completely eschewed anything related to electrical engineering in favor of writing code, and took an interview for a position that would have made it geographically impossible to continue taking classes without spending an inordinate amount of time traveling. I got the job, and simply stopped taking engineering classes, presumably to continue at some point in the future.
At that time, in 1983, microcomputers, although starting to be widely used, were just emerging from the cachet of being largely hobbyist devices in the eyes of the general public. There was no real specialization yet; we techies did everything, not just programming, but also building them, upgrading them (hardware and software) connecting them to each other over point-to-point serial (RS232), modems, networks, etc.
In the succeeding twenty-five years, I never returned to finishing my electrical engineering degree. Partly this was because it was largely irrelevant for the work I was doing and also because at that time, the alternative, computer science, was practically in its infancy; programming was considered simply an adjunct to what was then referred to as "data processing", which meant COBOL. No one had really even heard of structured, much less object-oriented programming. By the time those concepts started to be widely taught, my own level of experience far surpassed them. Of course, eventually the discipline caught up and passed me, but by then finishing my BSEE would not have positively affected my earning potential in any real way.
Regardless, my lack of degree has never been much of an issue and I've had a reasonably successful career as a computer consultant developing software for hire, until I recently succumbed to the constant pressure of consulting and found a job with a good company.
I wonder if the same kind of career could happen today. I've gone from having to do everything from installing hardware and configuring machines and software to now where I am only writing code for specific PARTS of a subsystem and not allowed near other parts, while NEVER being allowed to so much as install a memory card (Sys Admins do that).
Not sure if I have any direct advice for you beyond perhaps to say that it was once possible to do well without a degree and perhaps by avoiding the "fall-line" of mainstream IT, to borrow a skiing expression, maybe it still is.
"No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." -- Lily Tomlin
As not having a degree worked out ok for Bill Gates.
To quote wikipedia: "...Alma mater Harvard University (dropped out in 1975, honorary degree in 2007)..."
CNET: Bill Gates "graduates" from Harvard 30 years after dropping out
Yes you can, I'm living proof. I have worked for some of the largest companies, and some of the biggest IT projects. That being said, it wasn't easy. Many places will not even look at you without a degree. Often you can't even get your resume past HR and onto hiring managers. If I had it to do over again, well I never really had a choice, so I guess I would do it the same, but given the choice, I would get the degree.
I completed HS and joined the Navy. They put me thru their schools that teach not just how to fix this particular equipment but how to troubleshoot anything. I got out, got a CNE and several MS programming certs, worked as lead Network Designer and programmer for a small company, worked for a major hotel(until occupancy went into the toilet all around), now I work for a mid-sized company doing sysadmin, troubleshooting, and web programming. I'm quite happy here.
If you want, I'll give you the long version of it, but bottom line is you'll have to start at the bottom (helpdesk) and work your way up. Because a sysadmin tends to work with very critical systems, you'll have to build a reputation of handling more and more responsibility with the same amount of precision. Basically, you'll need to outshine your peers for quite a while.
That being said, I've worked with both degreed and non-degreed people. Experience is the only thing that ever seperated them. Degreed people, I've noticed, tend to complete jobs more often; but I have found that they also tend to think a little too highly of themselves and ignore the people who have been doing it for years.
So, it'll be a struggle, but I, along with quite a few other /.'ers, are living proof that it can be done.
-What have you contributed lately?
Yes, it's definitely possible. Most of the job postings I've seen that specify a degree requirement also say something like "or equivalent experience". Yes, there are a few companies that absolutely require a degree, but most do not. So, you will usually need either a degree or experience to even get the interview.
The fact that a person doesn't have a degree doesn't automatically mean their education is lacking. Not everyone requires the structured environment of a classroom to learn. Many people are driven to learn on their own. It's that drive to learn that's important. I'd take that person over an unmotivated college grad any day as an employee.
"I had a boss once" - by nine-times (778537) on Monday December 01, @09:50AM (#25943915) Homepage
Once? I've had, over a nearly 17 yr. long career in this field, only 2 bosses that actually "grew from w/in the ranks"... they only, knew what they were doing, & could actually second-guess their help & improve things!
Whereas, by comparison, MOST so-called "bosses" in this field don't even have any experience in comp. sci., let alone, formal training via degrees in it (& certs? They're NO MATCH or even a COMPARISON, for a full-blown degree in this field, far from it, period)... they make piss poor decisions because of it, & certainly aren't any help when it comes to deadline time, & another saavy + competent mind & set of hands could help... good bosses, actually CAN, because they've done the job themselves. MBA Fratboys, as I call them? Cannot, period.
Most "bosses" in this field, in my experience @ least, over nearly 17 yrs. now?
Hey, they don't have enough hands-on in this field themselves to justify their being "superiors" over their "inferiors" anyhow...
Thus, I.E.-> They don't make good judges of who is good in this field or not, anyhow, because they themselves usually only have their "MBA" & no actual comp. sci. specific experiences themselves, hands-on, for decades in the actual trenches doing the job.
A combination of degrees, AND EXPERIENCE, as well as a good resume/track record, is what is required.
Unfortunately, most companies try to "pinch pennies" either via outsourcing, OR, hiring in rookies (by comparison to more expensive experienced guys that are proven on the job, AND, have their degrees + certs), OR, by going with no degree people (who with MANY years of hands on experience coding for example? MIGHT do well - without that experience, hands-on, for YEARS to DECADES, though? They most likely don't understand many areas well enough to do so)...
In those cases?
You get, what you get - usually shoddy work, full of rookie bugs, or bugs due to the fact the person coding did NOT have the benefits of a course like say, for instance, DataStructures!
(Which helps in cases where you do NOT have a prebuilt script kiddie tool doing the job for you, and you have to invent it, yourself - for things such as parsing logs, finding unique or repeated data, & sorting it + far more (varies by task)).
With degrees, you get understanding that otherwise w/out said degree's training, showing you proven tips/tricks/techniques + algorithms etc.? You'd most likely either screw it up, write it poorly & have it fail on many conditions, leading to "patch after patch" type scenarios, OR, you'd burn too many days/weeks/months attempting to figure out something you do NOT understand properly, & are largely screwing up, because of that lack of understanding.
In my experience, You are going to need some sort of certifate-- MCP, Networking, MCSE or something like that. I have been in the job market on and off in the southwest region and most jobs here do not specify a BS or a BA, but they definitely want some sort of certificates. You will not be able to get in just on your good looks and the fact that you hack at home :)
Yes, but uou MUST have A LOT of experience in what the company is looking for. Don't think you're going to leave high school and after two years grab a Direct of Infrastructure job. I am a Director of Infrastructure. I have a GED, but I also have 10 years experience at building infrastructures. I started at the very bottom. I was Tech Support for three different companies. (two ISPs and a major Anti-Virus company) Then I became an Computer Operator for a medium size company that was still computing with early 80 era technologies. They allowed me some leeway since they felt I knew how to do a lot of things and for two years I revamped most of their infrastucture. Then we built a new building and they hired a design engineer and he and I worked together designing the new buildings entire infrastucture. That was my foot in the door. I moved to New York and now I've built infrastuctures for several different companies and am not doing it again for a online trading firm.
Depends.
Schools these days target the lowest common denominator in order to keep their graduate and placement rates up. It's a fine balance between reputation and the bottom-line. Unfortunately modern institutions are increasingly concerned with profits and find it difficult to resist the temptation to give a few more grads a free ticket to impress their investors/beneficiaries.
It's also not really fair to exclude people of a certain economic fair who may not have been able to afford the luxury of a college or university education. Speaking from experience, I came from a poor family and couldn't afford four years at ever-increasing tuition rates on a part-time wage. That fact has no relation to my intelligence or capability -- I work on web, computer graphics, and computer vision technology and I never spent a day in university or college.
I might try joining an institution some day, but my hopes of finding a more rigorous and dialectic education remain dashed. Too many institutions are monastic and profit-driven factories. Boring.
I'm sure I've sat across the interview table with people who have the same opinions as you. I obviously didn't get hired by them. In hindsight, I'm rather glad. The people who do tend to hire me have a broader insight into reality.
No degree. No certs. Went through the whole CNE 4.1 bit but never bothered with the test. My ability is what people come to me for. None of my top guys have degrees. None of them have certs. They are all too busy.
I have never seen a degree program that could improve the troubleshooting process that goes on inside someone's head. A lack of functional fixedness is a major plus and that can't be taught either.
We tend to laugh at MCSEs and people with Computer Science degrees. They come out of their training with ideas that need to be beaten out of them to make them useful. (Three users on a network! Lets install a domain!!! (GAAACK!?)) We've tried hiring a few people with MCSEs and A+ certs. They are all gone. Degrees and certs do not delineate a person's ability. You are better off asking applicants how they would solve various technical issues so you can see their brain at work.
Lots of customers ask me how their kids/relatives can get into the business. I tell them that a certification might get them an entry level job but the real important bits are how they think and how much experience they have. They need to be the type of person who remembers every bad thing that ever happened to them and what they had to solve those things. Then they have to go out into the world and let bad things happen to them for about 10 years. Then they will be good techs.
Programming is a totally different side of IT. A degree would actually make a difference there. Companies also love to snap up young programmers too.
Maybe you should have taken an English major?
Obligatory Joke: Do you know how to tell an English major when you meet one?
It's easy: They say "Would you like fries with your meal?" instead of "Want fries with that?"
All the jobs I've held have had an "... or equivalent experience" clause in the position description. As a professional software engineering consultant (18+ years consulting experience) nobody cares if I got the degree or not.
That said, it's not easy to get in the door at most organizations as a programmer without a degree, although if you could demonstrate your ability and you had the attitude and aptitude for the job, I know I'd hire you.
On the other hand, I turned down a job offer from Google, because their mentality there is such that you can't have a career there without a Ph.D.
...if Google don't want people without a PhD, why did they extend you a job invitation for you to turn down?...
My cousin starts his IT job for an oil field company today. He has no degree. He called me up before the interview early last week asking for advice, as he had no idea what he was in for. I told him that as long as he asked a bunch of questions everything should be fine.
[quote]On the other hand, I turned down a job offer from Google, because their mentality there is such that you can't have a career there without a Ph.D.[/quote]
It was a few years ago when I interviewed with Google, but there was a distinct air of elitism in the interviews. Suffice to say I wasn't terribly hurt when I heard they weren't going to continue the process.
I HAVE taken an English major. She's my girlfriend.
As a person that is an application developer and a consultant* and without any university degree, let me say that YES, you can get a job in IT, even a well payed one.
But the problem is that you have to be in the upper 10% in knowledge and talent. If you are mediacore, then you will have hard time to get in. And I am 24 now.
* - Not freelancer and not self employed
I only have an AA not a BS and several IT certifications. I've been in IT for 15 years now and I want out of it. Bad career choice period.
But I would have to take a cut in pay to less than 1/2 my income to do it. ( Seriously I would rather be a plumber and plunge toilets than work IT anymore. )
I'm doing everything I can to find a way out of this career without bankrupting myself to do so.
My advice learn a trade skill ( eg ..welding or pipe fitting ) a journeyman in any trade skill make more than an IT worker with equal time experience or become an auto mechanic. You will find yourself in a career where you are not thought of as disposable and outsourceable.
The boss that promoted me from a Engineering Tech to an Engineer said "We all have 98.6 degrees, you've shown you can do the job". You have to work harder. I am telling my kids to go to College more for the social experience and the parties.
I myself am one of those people. I have no "official" credits, and I am self taught. Currently managing IT for a mining company. Granted I had a little luck with my first IT job that got me into the field. By time left my first job, I had 4 years experience at an enterprise level. So that helped there after. I have found (thus far) that experience itself can carry you - BUT I am sure the certificate would be an asset still... especially when applying for a job and there are other candidates with equal experience.
There's a lot of us out here with degrees that are having a hell of a time getting jobs. Partly, it's competition, but to a larger degree, it seems to be HR departments (95%) and recruiters (apparently down to 50%-60%) who *insist* on not only degrees, but want certifications (even when they're irrelevant), *and* want you to be "fresh", as though we're some sort of fruit that bruises and spoils if we're not working now, or through last week at the latest.
As for "or equivalent experience" - back in '88, I was living in Austin, TX. At the time, I only had an AA (two year degree, for those outside the US), but over seven years experience. I applied for a job with the state. Had a good interview, then got a call from the manager at their HR (someone named Genie), who told me, in so many words, that although the ad said "or equivalent experience", she'd decided that she wouldn't accept that, and so wouldn't allow me to be hired, since I didn't have a 4-year degree.
It's bad out here.
mark
The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all. -king solomon
Touche!
(I would type that properly but slash doesn't do UTF-8...)
I am an executive at a very large financial institution. I started as a help desk person with no degree about 12 years ago. I've worked my way up over the years in various job (including Network Administrator) and now I am a top IT executive at a top-10 US bank. I don't have a degree, and now recently, I don't plan on getting one.
But, I don't hire anyone (especially Sys Admins) without a degree and I don't think I would.
The reason is that although I think the degree is meaningless the people that I would hire either have them or don't. It's *my* choice - and although the people problem (finding and hiring good people) is alive and well (yes, even in this economy), I get enough applicants that I can be picky.
Think of this question - if two candidates had exactly the same experience and one had a degree and the other didn't - who would you choose?
hmmm....
Anyway - I'm a well payed CTO (33 years old) got and conditional offer to work at Google this year (very interesting terms). I studied Physics with the Philosophy of Scince Msci, but dropped out.
If you're bright, you have ideas, and you can make them a reality, then you will will do well. a degree, is only good for proving you can get a degree.
Because you can - or because you should?
It less that you need the degree and more that a degree makes it easier for your.
-- dnl
Exactly. All these people saying "OF COURSE you don't need a degree!!!" and posting stories about how they were able to break into IT and get a six-figure salary after dropping out of the 4th grade need to realize that it isn't the 1990s any more. Back then every company suddenly needed IT workers, and there was a terrible shortage; companies would hire anyone breathing if they knew how to set up a web site, regardless of formal training. Now every job posting will usually get multiple applications from people with degrees, and companies are able to be choosy.
I dropped out of colledge when I was offered a full time sys-admin position. Became friends with the webmaster. The rest is history. Paid well, lots of perks. A degree is only good for getting your first real job. If you can get that far without one go for it.
That's right. Without a real computer science degree, you just wouldn't have that same access to wikipedia and google. Just because you can write an operating system in hex doesn't mean you understand anything significant about computers. Being able to rebuild a transaxle doesn't make you an auto mechanic. Get the education so we can all feel good about that extra house payment worth of debt we have to repay from it.
I work as a Unix admin for a medical school, with out a degree or any certifications. Most of my co-workers do not have degrees either. The ones that do have degrees in theology, ministry, psychology, physics, chemistry and journalism. I put in a LOT of hours on my own time to get the experience I needed to pass my technical interviews. A lack of both experience and a degree will make for a long hard road of tech support.
A degree is rarely a bad idea, though. I'm going back to finish mine. It's very possible to find a good job with out it, but it's a lot easier to move up the ladder with it. In IT, the degree is often used more to show that you can stick with something rather than prove you know something.
If your interviewer does not know what questions to ask, they will probably look more for a degree than expertise.
I recommend hooking up with a head hunter or a recruiting agency. They often have tests that they will use to gauge your abilities and attach them to job postings on your behalf. They will also help you get your resume in order.
If you can manage, don't be afraid to take a contract or contract-to-hire position that will gain you valuable experience and give you the ability to add that 'System Administrator' title to your resume.
In my experience the more dynamic your capabilities the better off you will be. I have M.S. in CS which helps me get a foot in the door. I have been turned down by plenty companies who did not like my mixed background of web development / system administration or my degree. I am very glad those companies turned me away! At my current job(small company) I get to do web development, system administration, and project management. I do not always get to play/learn the technologies that interest me so I work with a non-profit on the side that lets me satisfy the need for creativity and gets me experience in the technologies that do interest me. Volunteer your skills for good, help a non-profit and gain some experience.
And the previous n years of experience doesn't prove that? You can argue that taking a degree proves nothing other than a mind-set of avoiding work as long as possible (how does that stack up with your companies requirements?). Maybe those who didn't do a degree (and by this I mean a European, started at 18, usually 3 years + 1 year in industry) actually wanted to get a job and get on, not live a student lifestyle for a bit longer. I've seen plenty of degree-educated slackers in my time. Apologies to hard-working students, but it's a counterpoint to the above post.
Yes, I said "once", and that was because I was relaying a specific anecdote about how a college degrees and certs aren't everything. A college education can give you a depth of understanding that isn't otherwise available. Notice I said (and emphasized) "can". It can help you develop that understanding, but only if you're a smart person who pays attention and works at it. Lots of people aren't.
Like I said, lots of people skate by and come out learning some things, but still being inferior to someone with a little common sense, a little experience, and a half-decent work ethic.
I will note, however, that a formal CompSci degree seems to be far more helpful in producing good programmers than good support people and sysadmins. My theory is that being a good programmer involves much more knowledge about how things ideally should work, whereas support/administration is often more about knowing how things tend to break when they don't work the way they ideally should. Knowing how things break in the real world tends to be something you can learn a little more easily from experience.
NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK.
you get jobs at places like LUG's, special interest groups, monthly chat-and-drink meet ups, hobby meetings, the library, etc.
there is always room for "qualified" drones to fill out rosters with "acceptable risk" employees, ones that are likely to output a consistient boring amount every year and follow the rules - but the bulk of real work in most IT shops is consultants, people who are too weird or far out or unemployable to get in the normal way but are willing work outside the box or long long hours at home to make stuff "really work." ... Don't expect medical benefits and alot of luxuries that Well Branded Workers (tm) get, but there is plenty of room to work.
Just don't be overconfident of your abilities and maybe work as hard on your social and interpersonal skills because thats what catches up most of the skilled sneak-in workers and consultants. Wearing clean clothes helps too.
--- ask me about nihilism, I will have nothing to tell you.
In my experience, it is who you know that will land a decent job. A degree is nice to have and will look good on the resume but reflects little about your practical skill/ability. A college degree is just one variable in getting hired and will be overlooked if you can do the job.. IMHO
In many of the past jobs that I've had, I've often been laid with the burdon of assisting or handling in the interview process for new applicants. With virtually every new hire that had little to no experience and a shinny new CS degree, it required a good 3-6 months of hand holding just to get that person to a point where they could contribute. My personal belief is that structured education institutions cannot become proficient, organize a course, create a sylabus, and then offer a class available fast enough to be a current state in the working market. Technology simply moves too fast, and being a year or two behind makes your marketability limited and legacy.
I've been the Sr. Software engineer, system administrator, or CTO of the last 5 companies I've worked at, and although I have a couple college degrees, I've never taken so much as one computer class at school. Books and information on the web will be available and very comprehensive long before a school offers them, although that is a different style of learning and not for everyone. There is a distinct difference however between learned principles from school and real world application, and they are rarely the same - at least that's my take on it.
- Davey
What did you just call me?
University doesn't only teach you how to sandbox your users, it also teaches to
1) Submit work at the highest quality every time (A+ work)
2) Show up on time (I had a university prof who would lock the door at a minute after the hour)
3) Work with a vast array of people in an environment where you don't get to choose.
4) Time management. Anybody who has juggled five courses, a job, a girlfriend and a kid knows exactly what this means.
So yeah, a University grad usually brings these things to the table. Plus they also know to dress in a suit in an interview
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
I was hired as a IT Technician with my current company after working as a Production Controller / Aircraft Mechanic. Within a year I was promoted to the IT/IS Manager posistion. I did not have a degree, any technical certifications, and my last work experience was for my high school 6 years prior. I was able to show an aptitude and gained the neccesary knowledge on my own time. I have since received an Associate's degree in Information Technology. My theory has always been the degree will help get past HR and maybe an interview, experience is the rest. With the lack of a degree try to use networking to find a job where a friend can recommend you.
A degree doesn't mean all that much. It means you've been to university and stuck around long enough that you got a degree, but I've seen lots of incompetents get degrees.
Work experience doesn't mean much either. There are plenty of idiots with over 10 years of work experience.
What really matters is if you're good, and if you can show that you're good. The economy doesn't matter. There is always a demand for people who are good (but only in real boom times is there a demand for crappy programmers, like in the late '90s).
So how do you show you're good? The easy one is to work on open source projects. You can show off your leet programming skills, and if you're really good, you may become a committer on that project. If you're a committer on Apache httpd, every recruiter with a brain will want you as his server administrator.
I'm not a sys admin, but my impression is that every single good sys admin has his own overly elaborate computer network at home with which they experiment and learn. Do it. Play. Run your own network, your own server, your own website, and do funny stuff with it. Start a blog about system administration. None of this will get you a big name, but it gives a prospective employer something to look at when he wants to know if you're good.
So is it hard to get a job without a degree? That depends. I don't have a degree (dropped out about a year before my MSc, and BSc didn't exist here back then), one of my more successful programmer friends dropped out years before that. At my previous job, several people (including a server admin) didn't have degrees. And despite my lack of degree, I successfully switched to a new (and more exciting) job two months ago.
Now a lot of companies do care about degrees, so you'd better not waste any energy on them. They're depressing, and you wouldn't want to work there anyway. Go for the small, exciting, innovative companies that are capable of telling if you're good. And, of course, you have to be good. If you're not, you'd better get a degree.
I can't say for sure in these economically questionable times, but it's not impossible to succeed with college. It can't hurt, but I find that experience and motivation trump education any day.
I started in the mid 90s as an entry level developer with just a high school diploma. I bought a PC and toyed around with a bit, did some simple stuff in TurboC, and landed a job doing some very basic VB3. From there I kept reading, kept learning, and kept moving up. I was the lead developer on a couple fairly large projects, did some consulting, and right now I'm the IT Director at a small company making a comfortable six figure salary.
seriously? for a technical role?
I could see for a professional engineering role, MechE, EE, ChemE, Biologist or something like that, you don't really want bridges or chemical weapons built by amateurs, but for a technical role?
Respectfully, that seems too limiting.
Anybody working in the IT field will tell you that degrees don't necessary mean that the person is competent at their job. In fact, most of the time, people that flaunt their degrees and certifications, are those that can do the least when push comes to shove. So the only thing a piece of paper will help you do - is get your foot in the door at a place where you have no contacts... at the end, your papers don't say anything about how good of an employee you will be - I will take past experience and opinion of others before any certificates, when interviewing someone for a job. It always helps to have some business contacts to recommend you - I would recommend you start building your network at LinkedIn or some other professional networking site...
Bow before me, for I am root.
Well said. As a "senior infrastructure engineer" at a $20billion company, with no degrees or certs, I have to agree with everything you said.
Programmers definitely need formal education, but I've found that admins without a degree are often better at the job (there are always exceptions of course).
so the assumption is that you can't learn if you don't have a degree?
I agree. While I did go to college for a while, I never finished because I started getting the kinds of jobs I was going to college for.
Without a degree, I have worked for Microsoft, Intel, Novell, and several other companies; all with a good salary.
I have had one interview with a guy who, once he realized I didn't have a degree, threw a girly tantrum about the importance of college, but most companies just want to know that you can do the work and are more than willing to accept real-world experience in place of a degree.
see, that's the point I can appreciate.
If you want to work for google/MS/Facebook/Amazon doing interesting things you probably should (HAVE)get a degree - even if its just for "sys admin" work. Keep in mind sysadmins at these places are really engineers that are the best of both worlds. In fact they are usually called Site Reliability Engineers. They can code, can deal with high pressure real world scaling, and understand how the internet is put together. If you want to work at mom and pop webhosting then you can get by without a degree. Just make sure you get your MCSE.
Just keep plugging away at it, you don't need a degree, although it will be rough if you keep plugging away at it someone will hire you. There are always going to be those that are snobs and plain out think that someone with a degree is the best in the world (which sometimes, acctully it's becoming alot of times not always the case)
I'm trying to get in my field with basiclly no degree but when I mention it to people they just say "oh you learned yourself, that's good" So if you know your shit and a stranger asks you a question and you can answer odds are you're already on the right path, just wait for the company to hire you.
This is exactly the path I ended up taking.
I blew my first opportunity at college. I simply wasn't ready for the freedom. I slacked off, and didn't take it seriously. I did "OK" grade-wise, but lost much of my financial aid, and couldn't make it for a second year.
Spent the next few years maturing. Moved out of my folks house after finding that I simply couldn't live with them anymore. Moved in with my then-girlfriend (now wife) in her college dorm for a while. Eventually got our first apartment. Was in shit retail jobs for a few years.
Networking is everything. One of the guys I knew from a retail gig ended up manager of a dial-up tech-support department, and got me a job there. Busted my ass in that tech-support hellhole, sponged every bit of knowledge I could, and eventually moved into Web Design, then Web Development. I kept picking up server admin experience along the way.
Got a job offer on the east coast for more than twice what I was making, doing a webmaster/admin gig. Moved. The bubble burst, the company went under, and I was unemployed for a little more than a year and a half. What sucked was that the jobs I was applying for either rejected me out of hand (no degree), or were just far enough outside my experience that they didn't want to take a chance. I hadn't built up a significant enough volume of experience to open those doors without the degree.
Finally, after more applications and resumes than I can count, I got a sysadmin position at a small company. Intolerable conditions and expectations were the order of the day. After about 3 years of that, I needed to get out.
And that's how I landed my current job, as the second sysadmin at a slightly larger company. I'd finally accumulated a large enough body of experience in my field that my lack of a degree wasn't a concern. I had exceptional references, which I'm sure helped quite a bit. Great people here, and a much better environment. We're understaffed - but then again, who isn't? In this economy, I'd much rather have too much work (and reasonable expectations) than not enough!
Talking from a SW developer/architect POV, this job is a matter of passion, not degrees.
There people with a CS degree taken "because they told them so, in order to get a job", whose knowledge gets old after two years because they are not driven by the passion to stay on top of the edge on technology.
When hiring new developers, I'm way more interested in passion for the job instead of silly degrees.
I'll let Google follow its own degree chasing pipe dream.
I am 23 years old with no degree. In 2004 I started work for a marketing company doing cold calls (everyone has to have a job). During that time, I made a few suggestions on how to increase the responsiveness of our auto-dialer and get better results. After a few of those suggestions were implemented I was handed the system to manage and enhance as I saw fit.
Then my company wanted to increase its web presence. With my High School Web Design and Creative Design classes, I put the company on track for a giant web presence (you've probably seen my work if you've looked for a car in any southern metropolitan area).
Fast forward a couple months and I was put back to making cold calls because the web business hadn't taken off (yet). Here is where the tough choice comes in. Do you continue making calls, or do you HOPE that experience puts you elsewhere. Well I went on hope.
I started working in a DSL help desk for $10 an hour ($5 less than what i was making). I sat in the call center for 2 months before making supervisor, and then product specialist (ended up going from $10 to $28 an hour). I felt myself in another dead end, so I bailed yet again.
I worked tech support at a Hosting Provider for about 4 months before making Jr. System Admin. At this point in my life I had NEVER seen or even touched a linux system. I spent a year and a half as a Jr. and realized that my boss was going to be the end of my sanity and my career if I didn't leave, so I left.
I got a job at SAAS company working as a System Admin for their servers (over 100 Linux Servers). I get paid very very very well (imagine what other people that are 23 with no degree...or even with degree make). And that job came from 10 months of web design experience, 6 months of tech support (total) and a year and a half of admin experience. I'm not saying my story is typical, what im really getting at is if you can digest computer languages and systems with ease, and sell yourself as a million dollars, you will have no problem making it as an admin or a programmer. Many of the techies in my office dont have degrees (no one in the sys admin side has one), and I would love to put us against a lot of other degree touting individuals when it comes to information about the field. It all has to do with how quickly you can adapt. If you can do it...You'll succeed. If you can get yourself noticed for the excellent work and ideas you produce, you'll succeed. The meek may inherit the earth, but they will be waiting quite a while. Get out there and sell yourself and you'll SUCCEED!
I went to college. I don't have a "degree" per say, but I received two diplomas from local colleges. Now mind you, the college is long gone now, and a lot of people were screwed by them, but I did get something. No, I don't have a university degree and I really have no intention of getting one.
What do I do? I'm a product consultant now with the world's largest enterprise software company.
How did I start? Did crap work for the government. My schooling got me an unpaid internship at the government where I did some programming for them. That lead to two other contract jobs for the same government outfit. I earned those contracts based on my good work I did previously
When I got out of school, I worked for the school district, then as a programmer for IBM, and eventually as a sysadmin for a box manufacturing company.
How did I get to where I am now? By proving myself as someone of value.
Having a degree is nice, and I will admit that maybe down the road, it will hinder my desire to get into management, but I won't know til I get there. I make a good pay (same level as my peers) but I had to work hard to get here. My first IT job was in the summer of 1993. That was when I had the crap government job. Throw in 3 years of delivering pizza, and a year back in school, then I got back into IT. I got hired onto where I am now in 2006.
I had to start somewhere and prove that I was valuable enough to "climb the ladder".
Any company that won't hire someone because they don't have a degree is not a company I want to work for. Companies that realize that real value comes from the person, and their experience, not the diploma or education they have, are the ones that you want to aim for.
Here in Canada it's a tough place to find IT work, but there's always somewhere to start, regardless of education.
No matter how fast computers get, you'll always be waiting - Matt Klem
I'd hire the one that did better in the interview. Of the two, which one of them does my gut tell me would do a better job.
The diploma does not dictate the person.
If I couldn't decide based on my interview, I'd request a second interview with different questions, different scenarios until I knew which one was better for job.
No matter how fast computers get, you'll always be waiting - Matt Klem
Now having declared unto all the world that his life is perfect, he has therefore tempted fate with the utmost of arrogance that any mortal can muster. Since then he's been running to those 'executive health clinics' every week for various tests for fear that 'some life-threatening malady seekest to pounce upon him that he be snatched away from his toys as the penalty for declaring his life is perfect.' How dare he attempt to violate karma!
How's that for pagan philosophy with a daff dash of Monty Anaconda?
All I can say is the piece of paper is not THAT necessary. I've been in the IT field for over 15 years (25 years if you count supporting my parents' PC's), and I have 1 certification that is for Basic HP LaserJet training. The rest of my resume is EXPERIENCE. I don't even have a Bachelors degree, only an AS (in Computer Science). Meanwhile, I'm currently a Sr. Network Engineer, and, technically, I'm a combined NE and Sys Admin. I'd agree with several posts that I've seen that EXPERIENCE is more important than a piece of paper, and being able to interview well.
no, the assumption is that if you have a degree, there is a higher probability that you can learn or else you wouldn't have made it through university in the first place. depending on what university you are from, the probability increases or decreases.
for those who haven't attended university, the employer basically has no idea. do you know how terribly bad it is to judge someone on, at most, 24 hours worth of day-long contact? this is assuming a rigorous 3 1-day-long interview sessions for that specific person. that's probably more time than most organizations are willing to give (rightly or wrongly).
it's hard to tell after just a few hours and a resume what a person can do. people who do exceptionally well at interviews still bomb out after a few weeks of work. at least if they have a degree that is just one more piece of evidence in their favor. but to claim that that degree says they know everything there is to know about a specific subject (be it Computer Science or Secondary Education or Underwater Basketweaving) is silly. it's even a stretch to claim that what they do know is worth relying on; i've seen many college graduates who are completely lacking in understanding and experience in what i consider to be incredibly key areas. the fact that they can pick up on it with a little bit of extra effort on both of our parts is what separates the good employees from the bad. i have more faith in a relatively random person with a college degree doing that than a relatively random person without a college degree. i wouldn't bet on either, but I'd be more surprised if the former fails than the latter.
I've been working as a programmer since 1997, with no degree. I currently work in genetics research.
So yeah, it's completely possible. I just bought books and taught myself, it's not that hard.
If you're looking for help desk workers you may be right. For more intellectually demanding jobs, a PhD here or there might prove more beneficial.
Mod parent up! If you have a genuine interest in technology, you will educate yourself naturally outside of the structured education system and end up with a more apropos and current knowledge.
ayottesoftware.com
One important piece of the higher-education requirement isn't the degree you have but the fact that you have one. Why is that important? Two words: critical thinking.
This is a very broad and general assessment, but I think most will agree: Primary education in the US is, unfortunately, mostly focused on rote-learning curriculum designed around standardized tests. A college education introduces creative and critical thinking skills as well as a well-rounded buffet of experiences and information. Also, getting through college is quite different than high school since you're usually not living with family and you're learning to be disciplined enough to get yourself to class and do your homework.
It's quite possible for many people to reap those benefits without setting foot on a university campus--but it certainly only adds to your quiver of skills to have the education. Employers are looking for self-starters with high marks. Experience in lieu of education is second best to education AND experience. It's getting very competitive--the ones with the best resumes get the best jobs.
I have a bachelor's degree in music composition but I work in the IT sector. The fact that I have a degree in anything has helped quite a bit--the music bit is actually quite helpful because of the left brain/right brain balance. Now, if I were trying to get a job as a hardware engineer, that degree wouldn't help me much so the degree should match something your career aspirations for more specialized type of work.
My advice to the poster: get a degree even if it takes 5 or 6 years. You'll benefit in all areas of your life with a better education.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
It is possible, but don't expect to get the job of your dreams right out of the gate.
I had a BA in History with what amounted to a minor in CS.
I spent the summer earning an MCSE while looking for a job.
Took a job as a Network Administrator (actually I was their whole IT department for most of my stay there) at a small company for 3 years at a low salary to gain experience and work on some other certs.
Moved to a better paying job as a Network Analyst for a municipal government nearer to my home.
No CS/Comp Eng. degree, and I'm making over $65k...but it's been 9 years since I started that first job at $32k
Totally shameless plug for our podcast where we just talked about how much school really matters. Of course the episode was totally biased (all university guys) so we naturally came to the conclusion that we didn't waste our money on our fancy degrees.
I know for programmers there are a lot of "theoretical" topics you learn in university that you never think you'll need, but when you do, you'll be thankful you have it. For example, algorithm performance, compiler construction, or database theory are actually quite applicable in most jobs, just not everyday. When you do utilize it, you (and hopefully your team) really appreciate the knowledge.
http://basementcoders.com/
Basically: given two people of equal knowledge, one with a college degree and one without, barring any personality concerns, I'll pick the university degree over the person without one any day.
I would agree with you 100%, even though I do not have a degree and I am very well paid in IT. That said, the easiest way to get around the 'degree = better' mindset is to make sure that someone can NEVER take you and another applicant with a degree and compare you both apples to apples. Be the orange. The only way to do this is to be smarter than the other guy, and all the smarts in the world are not going to get you the job if you come off like an idiot, so you will need to be able to speak and sell yourself too. If you do this you will never lose to someone of equal knowledge with a degree. Also keep in mind that if this is how you are going to job search in this manner you have to be selective. Don't apply for jobs with a shotgun (otherwise you will be applying for jobs that you are not 100% qualified - which means you will not be the orange). Pick your jobs and follow them through to the end.
-matt
$diff terrorists hippies
$
$rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
Depending on where you live, HR departments might weed out candidates based on degrees. I know I wouldn't stand a chance if I wanted to apply for other jobs in the east coast (North Carolina specifically).
I dropped out of university on my second year, but since I have Linux experience, I got hired to do sysadmin work for a start-up company in CA in 99 (prior to that I've been doing other work not related to IT). We're no longer start-up, having been acquired by a much larger company :-) So ... if you want to get in, you might want to start small, and work your way up. It's more likely that small companies will not care about your degrees.
I became so frustrated with watching the contractor futz around attempting to get the user accounts set up, and getting answers like "Sometimes it just does that" - Really, he actually said that! - So we just had to fire them, and got our money back for the server.
That left us in a dilemma - So, over coffee at the local coffee house before work one day, I mentioned in passing that I could have the whole shop up and running in an afternoon if we went all Mac.... Now this post isnt going to be some Mac-Zelot Rant, Im just saying that you can find the right situation to get yourself in place as an IT dude (or dudette).
We grew from five to thirty-five users in a year, I sure learned quickly what I didnt know about ethernet management(!), but the important part is; Dig around, and get yourself some face to face time with the right people (decision makers), and sell yourself - It Can Happen.
I live in Michigan, and there are a lot of tech-savvy companies up here, but it seems all the good IT folks move away ; )
Cheers,
TJ
change it.
Sure, you can find a job without a degree. It'll take you longer, you'll have to do garbage-work more often, your pay scale will be lower, and about 4 years into the job when you've got real-world experience comparable to what you'd have gotten in getting the degree, they'll replace you with someone who has a degree, and you still won't have a degree. TLDR: you want fries with that?
I think Philip Greenspun's Career Guide for Engineers and Computer Scientists is probably the most inspiring and useful web page you'll ever view.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Problem is I started at the bottom. At 18 I was a bench tech working at a Big Box retailer...20 , I was working 3rd level support at a call center. 23 I was the junior sysadmin at a small company and doing alot of 'side work'. 25 I was the SysAdmin for a decent sized company with a couple of juniors. At 30 I'm the IT Director for a medium size business.
I will say it is sometimes easier to get your resume looked at if you have the sheepskin. After that, it is all interview and references. I plan on being CTO in 5 years.
Id say if you are looking for a Sysadmin job you don't need a four year degree in CS. It works the other way around too. If you were to have a four year degree in CS it would be a total waste of your education to then work as a sysadmin.
The university degree will NOT (I hope) taech yo the "technology of the day". They should be covering subjects that don't go out of style. Math is like that (Nobody every says "deferential equations are so 1970's")
On the other hand those support jobs, like Sysadmin and network instalations and help desk and feil repair really do depend on you knowing the "technology of the day" which universities don't typicaly teach.
I do had the CS background and I've worked in software engineering in the aerospace industry. I've worked on radar signal processors, rocket telemetry systems, guidance and navigation and secure message processing, simulations and so on. For this kind of work you want a degree in CS, math or engineering and hopefully an MS degree. For this kind of work a degree is an absolute requirement. but for work that suports a company's computing infrastructure most don't have degrees.
How ever thing about what will hapen when you are 45 or 50 years old. If you want to be in management by then some kind of degree, maybe in business or an MBA is very helpful
Well, I didn't complete my studies and I found a job at a small company that wasn't paying very well at first. Now I'm happy with the extra experience I get there. So yes, you can get a job if what you offer is what they want, including learning new stuff.
I'm sure it's theoretically possible to start out without a degree right now, but he'd make his life 1000x easier by just getting the degree.
I would suggest he start college, but at the same time start pounding the pavement hard looking for a gig, and dump school after he's been at a solid gig for a while. I don't regret skipping the four years at college and the $25K-75K in school debt I would've accumulated.
Without a degree, I started as a tech and was an administrator for a Mitel PBX, Symantec Corporate, Exchange, and a number of other things I can't think of off the top of my head. When my director was leaving, he was going to promote me to his level then our boss brought in his software engineer friend (which by no means makes you qualified to be an IT director, very true in this case) and made him director. I ended up fixing his "improvements" over a few weeks and outright quit with no notice when he and I had it out.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
"I will note, however, that a formal CompSci degree seems to be far more helpful in producing good programmers than good support people and sysadmins." - by nine-times (778537) on Monday December 01, @11:32AM (#25946097) Homepage
Well, I'll disagree with that, because techs that don't understand how say, a virus/trojan/rootkit/spyware/malware-in-general, work? Are not NEARLY as effective as someone who does, especially with a programming background, because 9/10 times, a GOOD programmer who understands the underlying OS & API's, can just look @ most any program, & tell you HOW things are being done, in any program (not just viruses) & get it right.
Someone w/out said saavy? Usually, cannot... let alone invent such a thing, themselves. They're usually "script kiddie tool" dependent, @ best/most.
No, without deep understanding, such as a comp. sci. degree gives you, in addition to years of real world hands on in the trenches experience??
There is really no way you can be as good as someone who actually has experience, AND DEGREES (degrees help here, they provide you foundations & tips to avoid mistakes like mad, & part of why you take them - so you avoid said mistakes, and have a good logical toolset to work with as a foundation)...
I've just seen it, TOO many times, over 17 yrs. now in this field as a pro, & many years before that as an "amateur" also... & I know it's the truth.
----
"My theory is that being a good programmer involves much more knowledge about how things ideally should work, whereas support/administration is often more about knowing how things tend to break when they don't work the way they ideally should." - by nine-times (778537) on Monday December 01, @11:32AM (#25946097) Homepage
No theory here though - pure work in practice, on most any levels there are in comp. sci. related fields over 17 yrs now almost.
Well, I do BOTH for a living (both a network engineer/admin/tech & write code (for log parsing & far more, where I don't have an 'automated script kiddie tool' to do the job for me, or, have an indexed database helping me)). I know I can say, without question because of the degrees and that much experience in this field, hands-on? That it IS how it is.
I have found, that when those that depend solely on "Script Kiddie Tools" (automated scanners vs. virus/trojans/spyware/rootkits/malware in general) are LOST, when those tools fail... &, they do - Witness below, take a GOOD read:
----
TOP SECURITY SUITES FAIL EXPLOIT TESTS:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9117042
----
Nuff said...
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"Knowing how things break in the real world tends to be something you can learn a little more easily from experience." - by nine-times (778537) on Monday December 01, @11:32AM (#25946097) Homepage
That, I'll agree with... but, when you KNOW this field, & especially @ levels like Comp. Sci. degrees give you, in addition to years (if not decades) of professional hands-on experience in the trenches gives you, @ most of the levels that timeframe gives you much of the time?
You not only know "real world experience", but, rarely fail vs. say, a malware infestation, when virus/spyware/rootkit scanners fail... & per the above, from COMPUTERWORLD? They clearly do, especially vs. today's "blended & polymorphic" threats...
&, that's JUST @ the "techie" level... when it comes to REAL problem solving (like making tasks that would take days/months/years with HUGE data) & being able to automate a machine to solve it for you, far faster than a human being can??
Computer Science IS the answer... real computer science, not just script kiddie using the tools that those that CAN DO THE JOB @ THESE
Have to agree as well... I am now working as a senior developer for a major online university in the US, and have no degree. Although, I am probably the only person working on this floor without a degree and/or certification. So ymmv. I think it really comes down to experience. If you get your foot in the door working at a more entry-level developer, there are lots of places that will hire people with very little experience for developers at $12-15/hr USD, which is about the same as a lot of interns make. You can gain some experience, and move up. After 4-5 years you are in a better position than new graduates tend to be.
It is harder to move into management roles, but a friend of mine who left high school early, got his GED, and went into the Army for a few years is now in senior management at a major airplane mfg, and military contractor. It's not easy going it without a degree, especially if you are interested in going into management, but it is possible.
Some companies won't consider someone without a degree, others will consider equivalent experience. Above all, if you can do the job, and have done the job, you should be okay.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
I have been doing tech work for 10+ years and for personal reasons had to pull up and move. The job market sucked, so I just filed a DBA and started my own business. Made my own job. Done. :)
And it can be a very painful road. Without the degree most companies will ignore you. However, once you have the experience under your belt, the degree means less and less.
I now have plenty of experience under my belt and make a $135k. I work with plenty of others who make the same, but have degrees. The experience I have allows me to troubleshoot issues FAR faster then any of those with a degree.
I got a job without having a degree. I was going to school at the time though to prepare for the CCNA. My instructor noted my proficiency and recommended me for a position at a local network management company. So yes it is possible, but in my case I knew the right people.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the question was "You think that's a typical or representative situation?", rather than "Is there anybody else out there who's done the same?".
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I dropped out of a CompSci degree after the first year. I took a developer job with a fledgling hosting company, where I worked as a developer, a sysadmin and, finally, a network engineer. The job was easy to get, because the company was run by inexperienced, dope-smoking 20-somethings who just needed someone with a lot of technical knowledge who could get the job done. The experience I got there, and being able to grow with the company, meant that I was able to write a great resume.
That resume got me an interview for a Software Engineer position with a well-known anti-virus company, even though the job description listed a degree as a requirement. I presented myself well in the interview, wowed them on the C test, and had a job offer 20 minutes after leaving the interview. That's where I formalised my understanding of OO analysis and design, and really got to grips with the intricacies of C++.
After that, it was pretty easy. I worked as a Software Engineer for a company in the telecoms sector, after doing well in the interview and being the first candidate to score 100% on both of their coding tests. As far as I know, I was the only developer there without a degree. After all, a degree was one of their stated requirements. (Actually, I might have got the job because they needed someone to play lead guitar in the company band.)
I now work as a Security Specialist for a billion-dollar software company, finding the security holes that developers have created and left open, and on a higher grade than several of my degree-bearing colleagues (including Cambridge graduates). Again, as far as I know I'm the only engineer here without a degree, and a degree is listed as a requirement.
So the moral of my story is this: if you're one those people who has a natural aptitude for this kind of work, and have developed knowledge and experience on your own time, then there is no reason that you can't be as successful as someone with a degree. Don't ask if it's possible -- just go and do it!
(Incidentally, one of my responsibilities in this job and my previous one has been interview other job candidates, and it's very clear that having a degree and a resume that looks like it has the right experience means very little. Once you talk to these people, you realise that often they struggle with the very basics. I've seen so many alleged C/C++ programmers who can't even get their heads around pointers.)
Did it teach you what anecdotal evidence is?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
most places are willing to part on the school requirement if you have experience. but usually, it's somewhat heavy-handed for those without degrees. such as: BS in computer science or equivalent experience [which usually turns out being like 3-5 years doing whatever is related]. I know that degrees can be utter crap these days, but I guess it's supposed to prove that you're motivated or something [or that you can stick with a plan and won't use this new job as a stepping stone; being able to stay the course]. I'm just rambling now. just my 2 cents.
I have an associates in engineering, several certifications and work as the CTO of a $300 mil a year business. I am intimately involved in the interviews and hiring of each and every new member (directors to help desk) of the (40 man) IT department. As many commenters have pointed out, experience trumps everything. In fact a degree makes an impression on me at the entry level positions but doesn't really matter to me when i am looking for skilled candidates. And unless it is a hard degree (math, computer science, engineering) I don't really consider it at all. I am just as likely to be impressed with certifications as with degrees. The gist is. If you have a well put together resume, have followed the normal procedure for applying (i don't respond to cold emails with resumes attached) and show clearly within your resume that you have a real passion for your particular area of IT I will bring you in for an interview. I believe in tough technical interviews so be prepared to back up what you put on your resume (Don't say you are a networking expert if you've never heard of the OSI model. Don't try to BS an answer; if you truly don't know it admit that and explain what you would do to find the answer). Make sure you check your resume for typos (don't just assume that the spell check fixed them correctly, especially on technical resumes). All of that said. I have never hired a level 1 help desk with a degree. I have also never hired an entry level programmer. But I have promoted help desk folks to development positions. You may have to get into the department before you can get into your core specialty. Just make sure that once you've proven yourself in the job you got that you make it clear what the job you want is.
First of all, can that "enthusiast" language. Talk like that around a hardcore datacenter-centric is fighting words.
No, you do not need a degree to get anything up to an admin position. There are plenty of employers out there willing to go on pure talent and experience, but your experience better be something more than "used samba on Linux to connect my two PCs to a shared printer" or "configured a CISCO wireless access poing for my house".
Where do you get that experience? That's the real catch. After you have "educated" your self sufficiently in whatever you want to work with you may want to try volunteering for non-profits like schools, Churches, charities, etc doing tech work in that vein. Theyn you can try to sell yourself to consulting houses. You may get lucky and land a gig as an operator or fistline tech desk. Warning, be prepared to work some crappy shifts.
After 2-3 years of equivilent fulltime work then someone would probably be willing to take a chance on you. Don't expect to get above an admin position though. Engineer and up, will require the expensive wallpaper with the latin on it. Also don't expect top dollar. I would say you would probably get 30% less than a degree would.
Never completely believe that "degree required" nonsense. If they are strapped enough for an admin, they will let that one slide provided you have the talent and experience. Technical references mean alot too when you first start.
Perhaps they were impressed that he knew the difference between a job and a career?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
"That's right. Without a real computer science degree, you just wouldn't have that same access to wikipedia and google. Just because you can write an operating system in hex doesn't mean you understand anything significant about computers" - by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 01, @11:30AM (#25946031)
Ok, script kiddie: What are YOU going to do, when say, an antivirus or antispyware prebuilt script kiddie tool fails you, & per this, they often do nowadays:
----
TOP SECURITY SUITES FAIL EXPLOIT TESTS:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9117042
----
What happens then, when you (the degreeless & foundationless wannabe) don't have an underlying understanding of an OS & its API that comp. sci. degrees can give someone? You'll be lost in the sauce, 9/10 times, period.
By comparison, someone with a degree and what it gives you, plus hands on years to decades of experience in & around this field, in the trenches? Most times, they can just LOOK @ a running program, & tell you how its doing what it's doing, and how (as well as how to beat it, especially in the case of malwares)...
Heh - The kind of "wannabe tech" you're describing is helpless without his forums boards, wikipedia, & automated script kiddie tools...
I've seen it, so many times, over a 17 yr. experience in this field, it's not even funny.
Fact is?
Most network admins/techs/engineers? "Users with a better password" @ best/most, & that's it, especially by comparison to say, a seasoned programmer who actually has his degrees and years of experience.
AND, yes - I've done both realms (network admin/tech/engineer as well as programmer/analyst - software engineer as my titles), & for over nearly 2 decades now, & have those things under my belt (degrees, & experience at both programming/software engineering AND network admin/engineer/tech levels) - clue:
MOST PROGRAMMERS THAT ARE ANY GOOD? HAVE TO DEAL WITH TASKS THAT NETWORK ADMINS/TECHS DO, &, are often largely assigned the same rights, so they can just set things up themselves, & not have to BOTHER the techies... why are they allowed that luxury/privelege most times?
Because they KNOW what they're doing, & many/most times, often better than the network techs/admins do... case in point? SQLServer. A DBA is needed, or a programmer that can function as one (& in MIS/IS/IT? That just "comes with the territory", & you as the coder had best be able to function with that type of BackOffice application engine)
NOW - the 1 advantage that network techs/engineers &/or network admins MIGHT have?
First, is a better password - Honestly? I feel MOST of them, are just "users with a better password", who are dependent on tools that those with comp. sci. programming experience MAKE FOR THEM TO USE (keyword, use)...
(&, they MIGHT MAYBE possesss, for a little while, some better knowledge of the overall network topology (big deal, that only takes a little time to get down anyhow, & certainly by way of comparison to inventing a program, when you have NO OTHER RECOURSE (such as a prebuilt script kiddie tool, & every company has that having to be done, because their data, their needs & the way they manage them, are unlike anyone else's, period))
I know that I can say 1 thing, that anybody with equal experience & degrees will most likely largely second & agree with:
That there IS a huge difference between the 2 types of computer people I am describing, vs. how you see it & understand it (playing music by tablature, but not reading music, is what you describe)
A college degree? Who needs that?!?! The only piece of paper I need for my job at Initech is a TPS Report! =)
And I do mean GOOD! I don't have a degree but I worked my way into the position from electronics tech up to test engineer then to software engineer. I have never really been formally an IT person but I work in IT as a systems analyst and developer and often as the only DBA and developer. I mostly work for small start up companies but even then I have 30 years of experience behind me and I still struggle to prove I have the skills to do the job. My advice is get at least an AA and all the certificates you can get. But a BA/BS will open more doors. As an enthusiast you haven't a prayer.
Why bother
I am 24, and make about 50k a year with good benefits doing administration with another guy for a company with about 150 employees.
As evidenced by the mass numbers of replies, yes you can succeed without a degree. However, unless you plan on a lead or "self-made" then your growth cycle is likely to be longer.
The knowledge associated with the various degrees is useful to the job you will be doing. For example, if you program but have never understood the "Big O" of various algorithms, then you will inevitably encounter a problem where you'll need to learn the concept. So yes you can be successful, but you will (at some point) end up learning much of the material included in a degree or your growth will be stopped.
As an engineer with no degree I'm glad not to be part of your organization. What a bunch of bullshit.
Why bother
You've hit one of the nails on the head. IS/IT largely has two aspects: Design and TroubleShooting. However in large part they both benefit from the same experience/skill and that is, 'How do I break down this problem?' This is a critical thinking skill.
You need to be able to look at the issue and discard the relevant information. This skill group is generally taught in two classes. High school maths gives you a light introduction with word problems. It gives students practice with restructuring information to better describe the problem. The challenge in the problems increases all the way through the mathematical curriculum, until at the later university levels, the student is figuring out what the question is first and then working on the answer.
The other course is Philosophy: Critical Thinking. The same skills that teach you how to filter the incoming information are applied whether you're watching a commercial, listen to the news (was that redundant?) or trouble-shooting a problem. It's that filtering, the ability to break down the problem, that makes a good trouble-shooter.
Design benefits from this as well, when you can break down the requirements of a system and get down to making individual components that work independently before trying to reassemble the whole mess. However, where an education provides an advantage, is in knowing how to design something without spinning your wheels. Experience only teaches you things as they come up. Education covers a huge breadth of material in a much shorter time-frame. The idea isn't necessarily to make you an expert remembering every last thing you were taught. But, from a purely practical aspect, with an education you are more likely to have come across something before and stop yourself from repeating someone else's mistake or reinventing the wheel.
IS isn't just about fixing IT systems. It's also about successfully building/deploying new IT systems, and you can bet management doesn't want to be experiment to see what works to get it built.
Essentially what I'm driving at is that there isn't 'one true way'. You're best bet, is to get some experience while you're getting an education. This will give you the best of both worlds. Anyone who says you just need one or the other is selling snake oil. In IT/IS/CS as in all religions and everything else, there is no 'one true way'.
This is also where the true strength of Linux/Unix comes from, but that's a different Slashdot article.
I was a self-taught hacker kid in the late 70's.. I took a year of comp-sci but did poorly because I spent all my time hacking 4.2BSD instead of doing my math... Talking to my uncle-in-law, who was a programmer, he said "A degree shows that you can be taught. Experience shows that you can be employed.". I've kept that little sentiment in the back of my mind and over the years, I've seen lots of people with Bsc's and Msc's in computer science who were almost completely unemployable. 25 years later, I still don't have a degree and it's hurt me a bit in larger corporations with short sighted HR departments but I recently ended up at a company that could not, would not hire me full time due to HR policy, but really did need my services. So they hired me on contract for almost twice what I'd be making as an employee (gross); and they're laying off some of my co-workers while simultaneously extending my contract. I won't get severance if I get laid off, but I'm saving up my cash in lieu of the possibility I'll find myself out of work. I have over a years worth of money in the bank, and at the beginning of my second 1-year contract... If you don't get the degree, it will still be possible if you're competent and a team player; but it will be a longer road...
As a Mgr., I think having a degree is important for the following reasons:
1) Degrees are often a pre-qualify tool for HR along with experience. Together, they provide Mgmt. with peace-of-mind that they don't have a bunch of hacks working for them.
2) While it is possible to get an IT job without a degree, you'll increasingly be competing with others that have it. Given a choice, Mgrs. will generally prefer the person with a degree.
3) Certs complement degrees and experience, they're not a replacement for either.
4) Exposure to a broad range of topics directly and indirectly related to IT
Unfortunately, attaining a degree has become so costly in the US that many have decided not to pursue it. This is the real issue that needs to be addressed.
I believe education at all levels should be free
I have been in many interviews. I could have told them that I had a Ph.D. and they'd believe me but not care, and jump straight to the experience portion.
The IT world moves so fast that 99% of the universities' study plans are TOO out-of-date.
It moves so fast that actually, I think college can only slow you down when learning things that actually matter.
I've dropped college in 3rd year, work as an independant IT consultant in my spare time for medium-large companies, and have a strong position in a leading retail company as leading architect for a 5+ million dollar SOA project.
Of course, I've been working in IT since I'm 15, worked on several million dollar projects worldwide and been there in earlier stages of many IT paradigm-shifts and always cared about working on companies within mission-critical high-exposition projects.
Unfortunately, this situation will remain for at least other 10 years or so. If you have no real experience, unfortunately, means you have no real knowledge on how the IT world actually works.
So people that don't have that kind of money are pretty much fucked, eh?
Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
"who had no idea about computer hardware, who was in charge of the test lab at that location. the more computer sci grads i meet the smarter i feel" - by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 01, @09:44AM (#25943813)
Spoken like the typical "academia bound" wannabe - I know, I was YOU once, & thought I knew more than some guys I met who were already out in the real working world... what a mistake.
What did I find out, later in the real working world? Especially about "hardware know-how"...
LOL!
Well, first, anyone can read a review, but, is that actual "hands-on experience" with said hardwares? NO, it is not, & no one has tested EVERY KIND OF HARDWARE THERE IS... don't fool yourself, especially IF you think that YOU personally, have.
AND??
Hey, face it - Any moron can read a manual, install hardware & its drivers, & test them. I know, I did that, for YEARS, prior to realizing that I only knew a VERY LIMITED SET OF POSSIBLES IN THIS FIELD, as regards employ & skills...
AND, let's face facts: People do much the same, everyday, setting up stereos, phones, & other home appliances, for Pete's sake! They read a manual, & set it up, following directions (but, not necessarily understanding HOW it works, & THAT? That's KEY, to problem solving, period!)
So - though, after all that "said & aside"?
How many of the kind of "IT Professionals" that you describe, though, could write that driver or a better one?? Not many, if any at all.
Probably none.
ALSO - What are YOU going to do, when say, an antivirus or antispyware prebuilt script kiddie tool fails you, & per this, they often do nowadays:
----
TOP SECURITY SUITES FAIL EXPLOIT TESTS:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9117042 [computerworld.com]
----
What happens then, when you (the degreeless & foundationless wannabe) don't have an underlying understanding of an OS & its API that comp. sci. degrees can give someone? You'll be lost in the sauce, 9/10 times, period.
By comparison, someone with a degree and what it gives you, plus hands on years to decades of experience in & around this field, in the trenches? Most times, they can just LOOK @ a running program, & tell you how its doing what it's doing, and how (as well as how to beat it, especially in the case of malwares)...
Heh - The kind of "wannabe tech" you're describing is helpless without his forums boards, wikipedia, & automated script kiddie tools...
I've seen it, so many times, over a 17 yr. experience in this field, it's not even funny.
Fact is?
Most network admins/techs/engineers? "Users with a better password" @ best/most, & that's it, especially by comparison to say, a seasoned programmer who actually has his degrees and years of experience.
AND, yes - I've done both realms (network admin/tech/engineer as well as programmer/analyst - software engineer as my titles), & for over nearly 2 decades now, & have those things under my belt (degrees, & experience at both programming/software engineering AND network admin/engineer/tech levels) - clue:
MOST PROGRAMMERS THAT ARE ANY GOOD? HAVE TO DEAL WITH TASKS THAT NETWORK ADMINS/TECHS DO, &, are often largely assigned the same rights, so they can just set things up themselves, & not have to BOTHER the techies... why are they allowed that luxury/privelege most times?
Because they KNOW what they're doing, & many/most times, often better than the network techs/admins do... case in point? SQLServer. A DBA is needed, or a programmer that can function as one (& in MIS/IS/IT? That just "comes with the territory", & you as the coder had best be able to function with that type of BackOffice application engine)
NOW - the 1 advantage that network techs/
Speaking from experience, it is possible to attain an admin position without a degree, but as has been pointed out, it will take longer to find, and you'll start at a lower salary, but it's possible. I would start by looking for smaller, locally-owned and operated companies that need an IT professional, but don't think they can afford one, and try to work something out with them. Also, a couple of basic certifications won't hurt you, and they're cheaper and quicker than a college degree. Best of luck to you, Riff
It's like the Nike Commercial, which I didn't get for a long time.
Just Do it!
Sure sounds so simple, and it is in a way.
You just start doing it.
There are companies that hire based on tests and papers, they usually get OK people but more importantly the managers covered there asses.
Smaller companies are interested in those to can get the job done, to hell with the degrees and certificates. This is where to start.
Set up your box, in a Colo, around $100 per month.
And Start doing things, setting up sites, hosting other people, scripting. Setting up services.
Then start feeding back into the FOSS community with bug reports asking and answering questions etc.
I find if your the guy answering questions, jobs soon follow. www.videotechnology.com has been my bread and butter for a long time. I don't sell anything, just field questions on the subject and occasionally write something useful.
My name is now in the Linux Kernel too, that helps. And over enough time I have so much experience that seldom do I have any problems getting accepted. It's just with the Big names that I get stonewalled, for example getting into a E-bay, Yahoo or Google, which is odd since I taught some of there early sysadmins on how to set up their networks at the Silicon Valley BSD users group. (svbug)
So stop whining and just do it, and keep doing it.
and eventually you will be going places. Since those with certificates only know what they trained for, those that are self taught, can get up to speed on anything.
I am going to respond to a few things I have seen in here.
It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.
College just shows you had some privilege in life. This a crock of shit, about being able to compete. So far I have help 3 people finish there Masters Thesis and one PhD Thesis. These guys couldn't complete this on there own, on the other hand I am more then capable of competing work, but just can't afford to sit around for 10 years in school to get my PhD. and there it little point in anything less for me at this time.
I started making money with electronics repair when I was 12, and have had to support my self 100% since I was 16. Where was my chance to attend school where I get the luxury to take my time to learn something?
For all of you that think a degree is needed, bite me.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
Many people have pushed me to get my degree and certs, but in all honesty they really mean nothing when it comes to standings for a position. I have seen total incompetents with Masters Degrees get hired and I have seen genius techs get turned down. All because of social skills. Can you talk your way into a job? The best class you can take in college or out are speaking classes.
I worked with one of the sloppiest looking people you would ever meet. We went to a site and he brought two pairs of slacks and two t-shirts as clothes for a 10 week job. He would stand in front of the customer unshaven or half shaved(really he would shave only parts of his face) and they were totally impressed by him.
At first I thought he was a Tech God, but the truth was he knew very little more about the equipment than I did. He knew how to talk to the customer and they wanted him around for that.
He gave me the best piece of advice I had received in my adult life. "It's not what you know, it's what people think you know that's important."
I had a 20-year career in IT (starting in the early 80s) without a degree.
Never noticed the lack, until I quit my job three years ago.
Now I'm back in school again.
I don't even check whether or not someone has attended college when I look at a resume. However, HR insists on putting down 'college BS required'.
.... if someone has the means to attend college, I would never advise against it. I just wouldn't advise someone to go into large scale debt to do it. Live at home or attend part time. Put on your resume 'Attending college and working towards a BS in whatever'.
I would argue that not going to college shows how smart someone is by getting into the work force 4 years early and not spending big bucks. My salary has consistently been at or above the average for whatever part of IT I was working in. I took courses based on what my employer needed my skills to be, not on what some college thought I needed, and used tuition reimbursement to cover several of them. The studies that show 'college degrees mean X% more in pay' are bogus, they may show correlation, but they don't show cause. Since people who are smarter and more motivated tend to go to college, of course they make more money later in life. It doesn't mean college had anything to do with it.
Smart, motivated people don't need degrees. Average people need degrees to suggest they might be smarter than they really are.
HOWEVER
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
But not necessarily the college degree kind. The hardest part is getting your first job. From then on your knowledge, experience and personal skills are the most important. If a company is using HR applicant filtering software (e.g. Disney), you won't have a chance, because your resume will never be seen by a hiring manager. Of course, a degree is advisable, but mandatory, depending on what you want to do.
I started out as a programmer, but was able to earn promotions to Director IT and CIO. Now with over 40 years management experience, I can attest to the fact you can have a great career without a degree. I can't determine how many jobs I didn't get without a degree, but I did change jobs several times, and didn't really have any problems moving up in the process.
There are tons of jobs out there for people with linux skills. However, you have to start at the bottom - datacenter monkey, tech support, things of that nature. These jobs only pay 10 to 15 an hour, but you work one of those jobs for a few years, you will move up, build up experience, etc. If you are a talented person, then you will move up quickly.
I did this myself working at a datacenter, then eventually started working at a software company doing tech support - now i'm doing perl development. I started maybe 4 years ago, so this isn't impossible to do.
Most tech jobs that I look at require "degree or equivalent experience" meaning that as long as you can prove that you know what you are doing through work experience, then you should be fine. But you have to jump through the hoops of helldesk and crappy jobs first - not many people will hire you directly into a network administrator position if you don't show that you have a background in dealing with networks on a professional level.
payed? you are obviously too well PAID and undereducated for your job!
From what I've seen, it depends on who you want to work for and what you want to do. Many companies require degrees, but even more companies could care less as long as you can do the work.
In my immediate group of friends I grew up with, there are 6 of us in IT (3 programmers, 3 Net Admins) - only one of us has a degree and it is in Theater. Salary Ranges from 40K to 160K (not bad at all for Southeast Texas) and almost all of us make more than the guy with the degree.
And, from my own career (IT/Net Admin), I find just as many individuals without degrees as with.
If you have a degree in something, even if not in IT, it would be better than no degree.
If you have no degree since you are competing with others who have them it would be a good idea to get a certification of some sort.
But yes you CAN get a job in IT without one. You may have to move somewhere you don't wanna be and work hours you don't wanna work, but you can get a job.
You're best bet is (if you already have the skill set) to start your own company that specializes in taking care of small businesses IT needs.
If you can demonstrably code and as a sysadmin demonstrate you know your systems then that is WAY more important than a piece of paper. I have interviewed a lot of people w/ degrees that can't code and have little real interest in or knowledge about building software or infrastructure or much of anything else actually needed. Getting that first job may be a challenge. But doing well on one is the doorway to other interviews. Successful involvement in an Open Source project is a good entry for programmer types. If nothing else works then do some volunteer sysadmin stuff for some non-profit for a while.
I always and only consider the person and what they demonstrably know and/or have a passion for. The degree is nearly irrelevant to me except in the negative sense of "I can't believe they have CS degree blah-blah and can't even code up a very simply b-tree walker".
I too have had several great high paying IT jobs with only 1 year of college and 5 years of crypto in the Army. College helps mostly when you are just starting out, it gets you in the door. Once you've had a good job with good references in IT, especially 5-10 years worth, it makes less of a difference. The military will really help you out. Many hiring managers will be ex-military and recognize your worth. Also, many managers that I've had regard the military higher because for many careers, it shows that you can do more than what college requires. Regardless, you'll have to have something compelling to offer. Every job I've had listed a college degree as a requirement, but obviously it wasn't. If you have experience, great. If not, then you'll have to convince the hiring manager that you're smart, motivated and will work for less, or maybe on contract until you prove yourself. I learned a lot on my first job with EDS. It didn't pay great at first, but after several years it did and it really helped propel me in my next and next jobs.
HTH
The majority of the worst programmers/developers I've worked with had degrees, the absolute worst had doctorates or masters degrees in computer science or math. Most of the best developers and architects I've worked with were self taught and had no college degree. In fact, there was one person that we interviewed a while back that I really liked. But three of the interviewers felt like you did, no degree, no job. We discussed many times whether we should hire him over some other people that had Masters degrees but lacked experience. In the end, we hired the person without the college degree and that individual was the best thing that ever happened to the company. He met every deadline, had motivation and imagination like no one else I've met, could solve nearly every problem creatively and very cleanly. Had an incredible ability to interpret what you really want in a spec as opposed to how you describe it. Looking at support tickets, most of what he put into production had very few problems except where a business requirement was misunderstood but otherwise, you could trust that if he implemented the functionality, it was ready to go production when he said it was. That individual understood more about technology trends, design patterns, algorithms and data structures than some of my own college professors. In short, he was one of the best hiring decisions we made for that company and one of the best programmers I ever met. The company later also hired the individual (who had two master in computer science and mathematics) that it wanted to over the same candidate. The company had to let him go about a year later for lack of ability to complete assigned tasks and those he completed often were not reliable.
If anything, while I really don't care whether people have a degree or not (for business type software development positions or most types of heavy-duty server application development); I will pick the one with more experience regardless, depending on whether they can demonstrate the requisite skills and personality. I usually end up interviewing people for positions where they must be technically sound (much higher than average technical abilities) and be able to work very well with people because they will need to jump through hoops (as you put it). Otherwise I have no real bias. If the candidate can demonstrate his/her ability to perform and survive in the work environment, then I'll hire the candidate.
Me, I don't have a degree either. After 12 years I have worked up to be a software architect for one of the credit bureaus. Interviewing for the position was very difficult. Our technical ability must be top-notch to succeed in this company as well as our people skills. I'm accustomed to start ups. This is actually the first large corporation I've worked for and I can say, jumping through hoops is an understatement. But I do fine.
I have been attending college part time. All my schedule could afford is one or two classes per semester and it has taken me 7 years to get finally get an associates degree. I stopped there. I work long enough hours at work than to leave and attend school for 3 hours two or three times per week plus homework. It was beginning to affect my marriage and my ability to keep my skills sharp at work. I don't learn on the job, I learn at home. So I stopped attended school.
You likely wouldn't hire me for that. A lot of others that only look for paper also wouldn't. But can pull my own weight and have outperformed many of my peers wherever I've worked. I also have produced or played very large role in launching many products into the market place that have succeeded very well. But I likely wouldn't be happy working for a place that is so superficial that if you don't have a degree, you don't get a job (for the type of work that I do).
Having a degree does not translate into knowing how to perform your job well. Of course, not having a degree does not mean you can't do can't job well, either. I suppose all things being equal between
I have been a network admin at a small company (roughly 75 people) for about 2 years and I have no college degree. I started in a phone tech support position and got promoted to this position after about 6 months. I got the tech support position by having a lot of customer service experience on my resume. Our company employs 8 software developers, half of which also do not have degrees. Most of them started in tech support as well. I think you'll have a hard time getting hired right off the bat for an IT position, but moving up the ladder is always an option. Also, small businesses would be your best bet as they are generally less strict about degrees.
I managed to get my job through experience rather than a degree in the field, that said however, my company will not hire anyone without a degree of some kind, it just doesn't have to be in the area of study where you will work. I think that a lot of certifications and a good personable attitude can take you far, but employers are also skeptical. We have hired non-university educated programmers and have been burned because they didn't understand basic good practices. They could get things done, but not as cleanly as we wanted. I think a degree helps dramatically, but once you have experience, you will likely never need to mention it again. If you can get that first job and build a reputation, you should be fine. Good Luck,
In the Navy, if you're just an enlisted sailor, that might be the case. You wouldn't believe the bureaucracy they have to survive on a daily basis. But if you are motivated enough to make it to a SEAL team, we had much less bureaucracy to contend with and much more "get it done". Of course, that was back in 1994-1996 era. I don't know how it is now.
Thanks,
Leabre
You don't need a degree to get a decent IT job, or even an awesome IT job. You just have to start somewhere at the bottom. I worked in a datacenter for 5 years working with an IBM mainframe... the only one in the entire State. Did side jobs, took a contracting job with a fed agency for a few years. Now I'm VP of IT for a local credit union. Chances are if a place won't hire you because of a piece of paper, then you really wouldn't want to work there. My brother has paper and is 5 years older than me, but makes significantly less than I do and we're in the same field of work. It's all about ambition and what you're willing to do get the job. I love interviews, I've done probably over 100 all resulting in "You Suck" letters telling me they selected someone else. Now, I'm turning down offers like others here. Just have to do the time and make some sacrifices "lambs are good" and befor you know it you're climbing the ladder. FYI, Business Management skills are huge bonuses if you plan on advancing the ranks, but if you want to be a techy, experience and time will serve you well.
You aren't an engineer until other engineers bestow the title on you.
Try joining an Engineers union without paperwork and steadfastly claiming you're worthy.
I like your perspective. I never thought about it that way. Though, certain types of positions should require a degree: law, medical, structural engineering, pharmaceutical, rocket science, etc. But technical roles such as programming and administrating I do not think should require a degree. Vocational training may qualify also, as it is more specialized. But on-the-job trained or self-taught people will suffice if they can demonstrate their ability to perform.
Thanks,
Leabre
I completely concur with the sentiment and posts regarding the ability to "navigate a complex system" -- the OTHER important part of the degree is follow-through. It shows that you're goal oriented.
I can tell you from first hand experience that, unless you start your own consulting firm or IT company, you'll hit a glass ceiling. You'll likely never ascend into the CxO ranks.
The lack of degree will likely become an albatross around your neck, and the older you get the heavier it becomes.
You will find that your access to social circles will diminish, and you'll likely be passed over for ANY candidate that has one.
But if you want to be the equivalent of an electronic custodian for the rest of your life, go for it. The world always NEEDS you...it just doesn't have to pay you what you think you're worth.
I'm 40, have a BA in CS, an MS in Software Engineering, and in a few months my MBA. They have made ALL the difference in terms of opportunity (and starting salary).
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Of course it's also a good way to reduce the chances that someone is a jew or black, since many universities CONTINUE to favor legacy, and the legacies of many schools are based on discrimination.
"do see your point and I do agree with it. Which is why I said it takes more dedication and willingness then the average person has. Just to clarify I'm not saying I'm one of those people as I am actively pursuing a degree." - by wmbetts (1306001) on Monday December 01, @04:06AM (#25941165)
Your first point, is CORRECT - I agree.
That's the difference between some kid who just wants 2-4 more yrs. of "fun time" in academia, just "skating by" on GPA probably, + taking the MINIMUM set of requirements in actual comp. sci. courses - to me? That's a fool!
(Heck, or even in DataProcessing/MIS degree tracks, vs. straight Comp. Sci., which is the same for MOST part, except usually less math is involved in Dataprocessing/MIS degree tracks in this field)
The "no degree joe", vs. that of the person who has one, especially if they're sharp, educated, & dedicated + studied their butt off, and "LIVED IT" as much as possible? They'll get the job...
That's where great understanding in this field, & any other, comes from. Working @ it, & loving it is even more important. Folks don't work hard, at what they do NOT like doing.
The kid who does love it, and do well in academia because of his love for it, & desire to understand it as thoroughly as possible?
Hey, they'll haul in 60k-150k out of the door, out of academia, because this kid is going to do well on interviews first of all, vs. the "fake wannabe" minimum courseload types out there!
(& I went to school for a comp. sci. degree with PLENTY of those type, 120 of us in the major @ the start, & only 12 of us left @ the end in fact, in comp. sci. - the second of my 2 degrees around this field (the other is Business with an MIS concentration), & on said 2nd degree (comp. sci.)? Only myself & my best friend @ the time, were hired immediately by a Fortune 500, right out the door on the recommendations of our prof.'s no less).
"Living, breathing, eating, sleeping & heck, crapping it even"
They achieve good things, because they worked HARD @ it, & nothing good, comes easy... not really.
They do well, beacuse they understand it, & with understanding (real DEEP understanding, say down to OS & program design + API levels, in addition to some hands on experiences not only coding, but also network tech/admin/engineering work?), comes the ability to solve problems, & certainly on MORE LEVELS, than w/ out a degree.
Genius = 1% inspiration, & 99% perspiration, in other words.
----
"My point is a college degree doesn't mean you know what you're talking about." - by wmbetts (1306001) on Monday December 01, @04:06AM (#25941165)
Well, first off? I don't think I saw anyone here state that it did... however, I'd be able to tell if they did know their stuff in this field, or not, easily, in the technical portions that most interviews in this field actually HAVE! Plus, I would STRONGLY wager, that folks who actually do get past their Bachelors (or even Associates) in computer science, WILL know a "thing or two"...
However & also, on the "flip-side"?
I'd certainly hire someone with a degree, AND years to decades of experience in comp. sci. related areas, than someone without both of those qualifications (experience, hands on in the trenches doing the job, & for a LONG while + degrees in said field)...
AND, I'd most likely do the same, unless the no-degree guy blows away the degreed person in an interview (rare, especially in the tech portion), also. A combination of good hands-on understanding @ the levels required by the job post, and a cert or degree, helps.
Having BOTH experience, and degrees (or at least certs), is preferable.
Most companies do that too, along those same lines. Get the BEST you can buy, for as little as possible, but... you DO get, what you pay for (in most things, including personnel)
There is also a higher probability that you are not a jew or black, since EVEN TODAY many schools favor the children of prior graduates, and those prior graduates were probably excluded from being jews and black, Yeah us, progress is sweet!
I got an AS from a technical school and that gave me my "foot-in-the-door" with the piece of paper from them and the job placement program they had. In fact they found me a pretty sweet "first IT job" at a company that sells science equipment doing desktop support and helping our CIO/developer. I also suggest making a list of all your marketable skills (including non-technical ones) this gives you a good idea of where you stand and where you might need to improve. I found that I had a good knowledge of applications and hardware but needed to bone up on my networking skills. And finally market your non-technical skills as well, you would be surprised how many HR people, and IT managers are happy to talk to IT folks that can TALK TO PEOPLE. Especially if you are starting out, typically you will be doing a lot of desktop support which requires the ability to speak and react well.
The answer, which may be hard for you to hear, is that *you* will not be getting a "good IT job" as a sysadmin any time in the near future.
To be a sysadmin, or to qualify for some other "good IT job", you need experience, knowledge, and the proven capacity to learn and adapt. No company (besides a tiny mom-and-pop joint) will be entrusting their systems to a person who has read a lot on websites, but has not accomplished anything. A degree is an accomplishment of sorts, because it means that you are willing to use your resources (time and money) toward your chosen industry. Of course, a degree without a related internship or other work experience is still very sketchy.
If you want a sysadmin job without a degree, then you will have to work your way up through other less glamorous IT positions - like a help desk. This is a completely acceptable route because you will learn a lot in these positions, gaining that much needed experience and knowledge and showing whether or not you can learn and adapt (as a job in the tech field always demands).
Lower your expectations and look for a job in the IT industry that is commensurate with your level of experience and then work hard at it. As time goes by and you gain experience, you can look for other IT jobs that fit your higher level of experience.
You do not want a job that pays a lot for a level of experience that you do not have. You will find yourself overwhelmed by the responsibilities, unhappy in the position, without respect from your fellow co-workers, and wishing you'd taken the longer route.
One of the most talented programmers I know doesn't have any sort of higher education degree, and has no trouble finding work. That being said, he also had 20 years experience in coding for the Air Force and the NSA. I'd say it'd be easier to get a degree than to go through that, especially with the market as it is now.
I did not complete a college degree. And even if I had it would not have been in CS or any computer related program. I have a good job as a sysadmin for a small business. Actually I am more than the sysadmin, I am the whole computer department, we only have about 55 users. Everything I know I learned as a hobbyist and on the job.
That said, I was lucky to connect with my employer, it was a chance recommendation, I am under-paid by about 20% per local and industry standards, and I am skeptical of finding comparable employment if I choose to leave. Although experience is worth far more than a degree.
If you can get a degree, do it. Period. It can only hurt you if A) you go way overboard in debt, and/or B) you go WAYYY overboard and overeducate yourself. You don't want to appear to be above the jobs you want to get.
"Waitress I need two more boat-drinks..."
In reading the replies, I'm dumbfounded by the assumption that people with degrees have the ability to learn and autodidacts do not.
Many of the posts imply that a person with a degree has proven they have the ability to learn and will learn things more readily than their non-degreed counterparts. To them I say, look up the definition of autodidact.
I'm hiring people, not papers. I've seen too many people stupidly bashing repetitive knowledge into their brains to value a degree more than a person.
And contrary to what has been said before - performance metrics in academics and companies are very much different. Certainly - people with a good degree can perform well, but it's not a guarantee.
The worst above all are by the way the french. There it's not only the fact that you have a degree but even more so at which establishment you've made it. If you have a diploma from an university with a good reputation you'll get into management regardless of what a moron you are and that you can't go to the toilet without help.
I think you're missing the point -- its not that the degree automatically proves you have more capacity to learn or do more than the autodidact
Its that its been VALIDATED by a host of instructors in a variety of areas and signed off by the school or university.
They are vouching for the persons capacity at that point in time.
I would take it on their authority over the candidates any day.
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Thank you. College graduates form a tight, very insular clique that makes it very difficult for those without one to get into any sort of skilled position, regardless of abilities and skills.
In my last job, I was the only employee out of a group of probably 150 that didn't have a degree. It wasn't a computer programming field, though; I've always wanted to work in that area, but I don't have a degree, so I'm dismissed out of hand.
What's better than having a good experience OR a degree, is to have an experience AND a degree. I was working as a chemist without a degree for 4 years, i had few courses to take at university left before taking my degree.... because i did not have a degree i worked hard and i was admired at work, but then again, someone comes with a degree with zero experience and suddenly he is your manager!!! Now that i have my degree i can continue with an MBA or whatever. A degree is just a passport. I know how bad it feels without a degree, what i suggest is that you leave everything and take a 3 years degree... you'll have a happier life!
mmmmm.....
I'm a developer turned dev manager turned VP of software development.. In my current dev team, 2 of 6 developers are college dropouts
(both told me they couldn't afford college anymore)
One is now taking courses while working to get his degree, the other plans to do it sometime.
It's all about the interview. If your resume doesn't suck, you get a call. If you nail your phone interview, you get invited in person and by that time its just a matter of you not doing anything stupid. That's my MO as far as hiring is concerned.
Education is just secondary to your other qualifications. It may help, but it almost never hurts. I tend not to think too highly of people who have too many certifications. That says they had nothing better to do than to seek anonymous approval of their ability of follow instructions/manuals.
Perhaps an interesting fact is that I passed on several post grads to hire my latest developer (who is a second year college dropout) and I couldn't be happier with him. He started at a relatively low salary but is scheduled to get a significant raise not quite 4 months since he's joined
I never said it was a realistic possibility, or even that it would be a good idea. I just said I would like it.
Programming is a hobby as well as a profession for me. The programming languages I use at home are much more advanced then the ones I get to use professionally. This is frustrating at times.
I'm trying to improve my English. Please correct me on any spelling/grammar errors in this post.
I am a systems/network administrator for a Fortune 100 Company (the only admin for my region) and I've done it without a degree. Not even an associates. Granted I did serve in the military for 5 years doing the exact same type of work. My pay is competitive with those that have a B.S. and similar work experience. So yes, it is possible. You just have to put your hard time in somehow. If you can prove your worth, there is a place for you.
I never finished college, but found work in the IT field via the grape-vine effect. My employers have to-date been smaller businesses which, at least here in the U.S., appear to be more willing to employ people without degrees as long as they can demonstrate sufficient skills and/or experience. You will likely find them less willing to pay the same rates/salaries as bigger businesses, but that's the trade-off. Once you've demonstrated your skills (after 5-10 years in the field) at a smaller firm you will find it easier to find jobs/contracts with bigger firms who at that point will be more interested in your experience than your degree. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to get a good letter of recommendation or two so you will want to foster good relations with your employers/supervisors past and present.
FYI: I started by own business in the IT field several years ago and I for one am more than willing to interview people without a degree.
Well neither Steve Jobs or Bill Gates finished their degrees, and they both seem to have done allright. Infact they now both have honoury degrees.
I dont think that degrees are absolutely needed, but they do help... That being said, my experience secured my position in IT for a MLB team... Haven't found the time to finish my degree since starting...
30-odd years ago when I started in this profession, a degree was desired but not required. I started as a programmer trainee, advanced to programmer, programmer/analyst, lead systems analyst, was a consultant for a few years, and for the past dozen years have been the senior IT manager at a manufacturing company. I've worked in mom-and-pop shops to Fortune 500 and Fortune 100 companies. I've never gotten a degree. This is probably as far as I will go in corporate America; without an advanced degree (Masters, at least,) I'm either stuck in little companies or little jobs -- no CIO track.
Although I started on large systems, I implemented one of the first business microcomputer systems I've heard, of, a store inventory and accounting application using dual floppies (8 in.!) on an Exidy Sorcerer, running CP/M. I've been an advocate of PCs since before there were PCs, was an early networking implementor (Banyan Vines, Netware, token ring, etc.) and have kept up with my Microsoft education. I went the path of the developer certifications instead of the networking ones -- that may have been a mistake, too.
I've always gotten great performance reviews, been on the continuous education treadmill for most of those 30 years, have the respect of my peers, and have never made as much as the person next to me who had a degree. I have to fight harder for my position in meetings, simply because no matter how much experience and respect you have, people just don't respect you as much if you don't have the credentials. IBM and Microsoft certification is helpful but doesn't make up for it.
If this is your profession, get the degree. It may not seem to matter much now but over the long haul of a profession, it's definately worth it.
I've got an associate's degree (in a technical, but not IT, field). I lead a team of a dozen guys responsible for 2,000 Unix servers. The smartest guy on my team, possibly the smartest guy I've ever met, is "a bit shy" of his HS diploma, has some college I think.
The degree thing, like certifications, is more impressive, I think, to people who don't understand the field, than those in it. Hey, it's great that you have a BS in Computer Science - now tell me, how would you troubleshoot (scenario)? Because your degree doesn't enter into it. Same with certs (with the possible exception of RHCE). Your paper doesn't help at 2:00 AM when we have something critical, down. How do you think? What do you know? What have you done?
When I'm in the interview room, I don't ask about education, because it's not relevant. Mmmmmmmaybe, if I was hiring entry-level people, it would matter, maybe. But even then, I want to throw a scenario at you and see how you think, what your thought process is, what questions you ask in response to my scenario. I don't care if you learned it in comp-sci:232 or whatever, I'd prefer you learned it in the trenches.
Often I'll see jobs posted as "4 year degree or equivalent". If you don't have the 4-year degree, be able to explain to the HR droid how what you've done qualifies as "or equivalent" in the context of what you're going for. If they're good, they'll understand your point. Think of it as a test of dealing with non-technical people in order to get your project done - in this case, your project is to get hired.
Sorry kinda long and rambly, but I think you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.
It has been my experience that the job listings are a "wish list", not a "demand list". It is often the case that Person A sends a message to Person B that a person is needed in their department for a certain job. Person B actually creates the job listing without fully understanding what the job is or what Person A really needs. If I have all but one or two of the items, I apply for the job. Worst case I get the job and have to scramble to learn the other needed skill(s).
...at what point does your amount of experience obviate the need for a degree? I worked 2 years as a low level admin and I've been working for 9 years as a software engineer with no degree. If I start job hunting, are interviewers going to ask me about a degree?
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
I live in New Zealand, and I'm not sure how it applies on the World Scale. But IT jobs require just one thing to obtain... Experience. If you start by targeting the little computer companies, and acquire a job. After a while, with experience etc... You're then exactly what every Large scale corp is looking for (provided good references form previous job). I started out as an orchard worker, although i've always been obsessive about computers, I think started work at a small Computer repair and service Company. After that I was targeted by Gen-i. New Zealands biggest comp company, owned by our Telecom Network:) Over in NZ at least, they figure... Okay well this person has their qualifications, but that doesn't mean they're any good at the actual work. They only know the theory. However this other person has worked in the industry with good references:):) He's in:):)
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I'm in México, and I've been working as web developer and sysadmin the last 4 years, I do have a degree in chemistry, and I'm even trying to get a Ph.D. (in chemistry too) done, but it took me way too long, so a few years ago started to work on the TI side, I learned a lot of networking and programming while on college, so I had little problem to find someone that doesn't care about my actual degree, but do care about a lot of stuff I know (specially FOSS related) that most computer degree guys don't know that deep, I even managed to pass as "analyst" even when I've never had an assinature about UML, development process, etc
I don't think I would have a lot of trouble to work on USA either, I can make a lot of stuff done relating to any sysadmin/developer activity.
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
It's entirely possible. I became a full-time musician after school, even though I had math/science/IT in high school.
Then one day a muzo buddy of mine phoned me and asked if I'd be interested in working for a student start-up because he quite literally couldn't find anyone to help, it being exams and all at uni, and pre-holiday season.
So, armed with my high school Pascal, and C knowledge from the demoscene, I signed up.
Needless so say, the programming bug bit again. It was a tough time, because I was only paid the equivalent of £300/m and some nights I would go home at 5AM, take a shower, then go back to work.
Today, 8 years later, I'm senior Java developer for the top blah blah blah outside of America (I won't name names), on £50K/a and just gnawing my way through as many (cool+interesting) courses as I can. I don't see myself going to uni (still haven't) because I seriously don't see myself doing CS101 or any boring stuff like that.
And to be honest, no course substitutes good ol' getting your hands dirty and coding something up. I've done enterprise-grade work using RoR/Python on Pylons and Perl, and the experience has taught me many things.
Just work hard, learn as much as possible in your free time, and you'll conquer.
I think a loot of people would think like you, the good thing for competitive guys is that most of the time, the positions that matter don't usually find more than one person to do the job, that's where a degree-less guys like my find their opportunities :)
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
Funny, my experience was exactly the opposite. Perhaps the difference is between Ivy League vs State Schools? My State School absolutely favored the children of those who had not gone to college.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I forgot to mention one of the most important things about working as a systems administrator and that is the fact that this position should only be used as a stepping stone towards another type of work, such as management, engineering, project consulting, or running your own computer business. The reason for this is that as a systems administrator your job focuses on a runaround dealing mostly with resolving issues and performing tasks to enable operations on a day to day basis. This is an endless cycle of issue resolution requiring immediate attention that generates stress as a natural byproduct and over extended periods of time this stress slowly builds up that will either build you up and motivate you to learn and move to another position or it will break you down and turn you into an ineffectual administrator.
Working in fast paced and high demand environments such as enterprise sized computing in multinational firms does this to many administrators who in turn either break down or move out of administration to focus on another type of work in technology such as management roles, or try to take on project work instead of administration and operations to balance the issue resolution work with improvement and design type projects.
As a younger technologist I always looked towards systems administration as a holy panacea of positions and I always dreamt of becoming a systems administrator. After attaining my goal and after years of working as one and becoming one of the more technically senior ones in many of the departments that I worked at I always looked up towards engineering as the next position on my career track. I looked up to engineering since this position was more focused on creation of new works through design and architecture work on projects as a solution to the repetitive and stress creating work that is performed through administration.
I started working towards this goal and I picked up a short contract a while back where I was the sole engineer on the project and as responsible for the entire analysis, recommendation, design, and to a small extent the implementation of the project. I worked with a project manager to carry out this project and hand my design work to systems administrators who would carry out the work. I really enjoyed the creation part of this project since I was able to utilize my expertise and knowledge of systems administration to analyze and plan the design of the work. Then with the project manager I demonstrated the design to the business management and got the go ahead to create the design. At this point I utilized my scripting and automation skills to create a number of scripts to automate the analysis and also the implementation of the work for the project. I then deployed the implementation scripts to the systems administrators working on the project and let them handle the operation of those scripts while also giving the project manager the metrics generating scripts to monitor the work that the administrators were performing. As the project moved along I had to redevelop some scripts and tweak others due to changing requirements. At that point my work on the project was finished and the daily operations were now being handled by the administrators and the progress monitoring was being done by the project manager.
After this project was finished I was very happy with the work that I have done and I was glad to be involved in the creation of new and useful products and processes that helped other people perform their work faster, easier, and better. This was a much more challenging and enjoyable work that required my expertise on the the systems that I used to administer but also required knowledge of other systems and their interaction amongst each other thus broadening the field of knowledge that was utilized to carry out this project. Since the systems themselves are rigid in their design the hard difficulties came from the flaws in their design or implementation that basically required the solution or workaround. The soft problems
One wonderful fallout from dot com was that everyone and their dog got into IT. Very few of those people had papers. So as a backlash now companies want some kind of paper. But don't worry! Going to college or university doesn't mean you'll get a job, or that you are any good at what you do... (In the "I went to school with people that were muppets" category.) Now you need some kind of paper - that is prodginy of the zeros - a certification of some sort will do. Either your Microsoft Cert, or your PM Cert, CISA Cert, SA Cert... all these organizations have popped up that for about $2k and a yearly tax you can have a piece of paper that says you know something about desktop IT, project management, audit, software, etc. Those are more eye catching these days than someone with years of experience.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
After all - Bill Gates doesn't have a degree.
I've spent the last decade as a web developer, and most positions I've applied for (and been accepted in) have said something along these lines in the description:
"BS in computer science OR EQUIVALENT EXPERIENCE required" (caps mine)
I got away with the first few jobs until I had enough years under my belt to argue that I had experience equivalent to a BS. Now, I'd say I have enough experience to surpass a BS.
So, they're usually flexible.
But, be forewarned - I've always been paid something like half of what dice.com and other salary data has claimed to be the going rate for my position in my area. Maybe I've just been consistently unlucky in my choice of employer, but I'm starting to think that they simply pay less for somebody without the BS.
The bastards.
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
I donno about that. My father was a coal miner (and still is). My mother stayed at home.
Actually, turns out that I'm the first on either my mother or father's side of the family who completed college. Of the roughly 10 cousins older than I, 3 attended college at the same time or before I. One dropped out to work, another got hooked on smack, and the last just took a long-ass time to figure out what the hell she wanted to do.
Do I sound like your stereotypical child of an affluent white family? My father was making about 28k a year (which is why my FAFSA reaped such huge dividends for me), and at least 1/3 of my family is either addicted to heroin, crack, or cocaine, with one particularly colorful cousin the proud mother of 4 crackbabies.
Needless to say, I don't consort with most of my family any longer.
But, I guess that just because I'm white, it automatically means my family was mega rich and completely adjusted, eh?
I work for a company in Fort Wayne, IN as a software developer. We provide our software on an ASP model as well as technical support to our clients so besides software developers we have sys-admin down help desk people. I started here in '01 with no degree. Our current sys-admin has no degree. We've found that some of the brightest people just graduated high school and some of the dimmest just graduated college. I'm not saying college makes you stupid. It just doesn't make you intelligent. College tries to teach you, but you still have to put effort into learning. We have had to train college grads and non-grads alike. We are more interested in the ability for a person to learn new things, not their knowledge of current things.
How about networking with many people, so many people that literally a company can be formed. Have some real, usable products with real world solutions. He could post himself to IT Czar. Others could be the HR, Payroll, R&D and other roles-takers. But, he could name his own price, so to speak.
Hell, they might even get some VC funding where VCs might be looking for aggressive new upstarts that have their act together. Or, alternatively, a bigger, frightened company might buy them just to hoard them, or to shut them down. They all might get 1 or 2 years salary to work or to not compete. Might beat unemployment compensation.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Except for "scientifically" speaking "intellectually" demanding jobs, I don't think you are right.
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
I'm not going to sit here and lie to you. Not everyone can just visit a friend for lunch and walk away with an IT job for dessert, but that's exactly what happened to me. I was an AutoCAD draftsman that happened to get into gaming, then deeper into computer modding, and eventually networking and ultimately started teaching myself UNIX. I was working at a local independent telco when a friend invited me to Chicago for lunch one day. I saw the server room, found my self in awe of it's row upon row of servers, and in an odd twist of fate my friend's boss (and my future boss) got to chatting with me, discovered I was ex-Military and offered me a job on the spot.
I've got a few classes @ Purdue, (actually 3 left to get my associates degree) but no degree. I may not make what other UNIX admins in Chicago make, but I'm comfortable at my job, relatively secure in my position (only UNIX admin, 50+ servers, flying solo) and I get training "on the house" every year.
So yes, you can get a good paying IT job without a degree. I may be one of the few, but it can be done.
-Phil
To avoid corruption, one must remain dishonest.
There is no magic bullet. You have to work hard, learn as you go and be open to all possibilities. Keep learning!
HopZen/ Tim Hardy,Founder and CTO thepaperceiling.com No Degree. No Problem.
Keep learning! HopZen/ Tim Hardy,Founder and CTO thepaperceiling.com No Degree. No Problem.
Until a couple months ago, that was my exact situation: My title was Software Engineer, and I lived/worked in California. I have no degree.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's wrong.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
say: "degree in CS, EE, MS or Math or related field. Will substitute experience for education." I shit you not. There are plenty of total, uneducated retards in all facilities of IT. Please, do us a favor and don't swell the ranks of ignorance.
I can't say it's a "great" job; the pay is below par, but it is also a very small company in a small town. I have been offered other Linux "Admin" positions, which would have paid 50% more in the area, but turned them down, because of the enjoyment I get out of this position, that I felt would not be as likely at the other companies that have offered me positions.
When other folks my age would have been getting a CS degree, I was busy going into debt running a dial-up ISP (before dialup was completely dead)... So I have "real-world" experience where most people in my industry have a degree.
I have since hired two other friends, who now work under me. Neither of them have degrees, either...
It is completely possible, I know people who are currently working without a degree right now. Though those same people will tell you it's hard to get hired without having a degree with many major employers.
...and I manage the IT department at a large international hospital in East Africa.
There are jobs out there for folks without degrees. It's all about gaining the right experience and knowing how to play the game.
I don't have a degree either, and yet I hold a pretty high paying IT job. I think the key is being able to supplement enough work experience that it does not matter to the person doing the hiring.
I had to start low, working tech support for a few years for an Internet company that allowed me to move up to system administration. This was easy for me to do because I was 18 at the time and everyone else I knew was working low end - low pay jobs too... it's a much harder thing for someone much older to do who has more financial obligations than I did at the time.
I do agree about the college clique that exists. Techies in IT tend to be pretty elitist, degrees mean something to a lot of people in this field. I see people come in often with very little or no work experience just on a degree alone. They usually end up make poor (read: newbe) decisions and screw something up before moving on to the next big thing. While the rest of us old folks (10+yrs in IT) say I told ya so.
If you have enough experience it's going to be of value to anyone hiring. You always need a few Senior level people around who have the experience that only comes with doing the job for many years. Lessons and knowledge a degree will never teach you. For many people working to that point might not be an option though. I'd recommend finding a job you can do with a company that does offer IT services. Network and work your way to that point where you know what the guy trying to get hired knows. Many companies (usually medium or smaller ones) still promote within over bringing fresh blood in from outside.
Wisely said!
Farmers have a better handle on accounting, government, economics, technology, and mechanical repair than most of the US population. If you want to see some sweet tech toys, today's farm equipment will blow your mind.
Tech folk shift bits around by plucking away at keyboards from the comfort of their warm, dry cubicles, with very little risk. Farmers work to create a product that is real, tangible, and without which we could not fuel our cars, feed our families, clothe our children, even though they have to handle variables related to temperature, rain fall, planting and harvest times, and disease that are complex and financially risky.
As tech folk, we solve a lot of problems. We cull, and sift, and display, and protect valuable data. We transfer funds and help people to communicate and all of that. But we still don't produce anything that continues to exist when the power goes out. The biggest problem of our day, feeding a hungry planet, will be solved by farmers. So let's not pretend that we are so wonderful at the expense of one of the most productive and creative segments of our population.
10 years ago you could - right now you will need all the help you can get
My story might help the OP.
Background: Playing with computers since very young. Started an information publishing business before the Internet was ready (wrong partner.) Used the experience to consult buiding database applications. Almost took a job programming C++, but returned to college (wrong move.) Dropped out for finances (poor loans and grants advice and policies.)
No degree; want job in IT.
1995: Joined cattle call for Windows 95 call center. Over 200 people; very few with computer experience. I bothered the best technician with questions. The current best technician would leave for a non-support job about every two weeks. Repeated until I was the best technician.
1996: Used that reputation to land job as "Lotus Notes Administrator" answering support calls. Learned administration. Also learned LotusScript and the rest of Lotus Notes. The development group would call me for help when they could not read their own code. Several of the developers were consultants from one company.
1997: Joined the consulting company. Would try me as a developer, but threatened a long-term administration position if I did not produce. I produced. Became certified as both administrator and developer. Built reputation for completing the impossible in very little time.
2000: A large consulting company recruited me for contract work. That company has provided about half my work since. Also working for other consulting companies and on my own startup.
2006: Decided to try being an employee. Gained position that required Masters degree; I was the only applicant with the required experience. Need a degree to be promoted and a B.S. before a Masters so college while working full-time.
2007: Left company just before completing B.S. Management. Returned to consulting.
The first goal is to enter the field. Support centers always need people. Do not work phone support more than one year. Use the experience to learn everything and make friends to land the next job. Since the OP's goal is to be an administrator, the next job will likely be a junior administrator. Get promoted if possible, otherwise wait a year and move to an administrator position.
Learn everything you can in each position. In the last two years, I have completed projects using Java, Lotus Notes/Domino, Microsoft, and SAP on MSWindows and Unix/Linux, also programming in other languages: Bash, C#, CSS, HTML, JavaScript, PHP, SQL (MS SQL Server, Oracle, and PostgreSQL), and XSL/XPath. (I am certainly forgetting some.) As an administrator, you will not need quite as much variety, but the more you know, the more jobs you can handle. A good administrator should know Bash, MSDOS, Perl, and VBS.
I spend my life entertaining my brain.
It's only important if you stress that you didn't go there. Just stress what you are capable of doing and change the question everytime they mention college. A lot of the IT people here are not very competent but they have a degree. If they can ask you what kind of cable this is or how many pins are in it or if you know how to climb up in the ceiling to redo their phone lines just change the subject. ;p
"I guess I'm gonna fade into Bolivian."
hmmm.... Anyway - I'm a well payed CTO (33 years old) got and conditional offer to work at Google this year (very interesting terms). I studied Physics with the Philosophy of Scince Msci, but dropped out. If you're bright, you have ideas, and you can make them a reality, then you will will do well. a degree, is only good for proving you can get a degree.
I know. But you have to have experience. If you do not have experience, chances are you won't get a (good) job with a degree.
Based on what I have seen in my efforts to get employment, having "commercial experience" seems to be more important these days than having a degree. What they dont tell you is how you GET that "commercial experience".
So basically you've been working hard for 10 years now and you've got yourself a position that nets you about the same money as decent graduate.
Meanwhile guys that get a degree, "study" for couple of years and live an important part of their young adult lives to the fullest.
And you try to prove what point?
There's a wide range of IT jobs in between 'help desk worker' and 'PhD Computer Scientist,' and in most of those in-between jobs, experience counts for more than a college degree.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I have interviewed 50+ people at my current job in the past 4 years. I would say that that if i could have the following 2 questions truthfully answered with 100% certainty, the process would be much more efficient:
#1 Can you solve technical problems: Yes [ ] No [ ]
#2 Can you teach yourself new technology/systems quickly: Yes [ ] No [ ]
I have had to fire people with Doctorates because they dont know (or cant apply) basic software engineering concepts. The best people are the ones that truly enjoy #1 and #2 above.
After studying at college in the UK (17 - 19 years old) Taking A-Levels in maths physics chemistry and ICT (more business than a computing A-Level) I went on to be employed there at the college.... so this was a 'recommendation' in essence as I knew the staff and had volunteered anyway.
After 4 years here I had well documented evidence of experience, but no qualifications at all (college wasnt too up on paying for qualifications) this was enough to get to interview and after this I talked my way in to the job. Interviewed by network architect and two 'generic boss' types I impressed the networking guy and was hired.
So yes - it is possible to get an IT job without a Degree as I am now Server Administrator (sysadmin?) for the whole of SW England (ok... only 3 offices so far :D) and we are expanding. They let me (without quals) build the whole of the windows network on vmware on dell servers. With no previous evidence of much vmware experience. Maybe I was good at interview - or the competition was terrible.
Personally I would advise (as I am doing)
- Some qualifications if possible
- Experience (luck)
- More quals
good luck!
This is ask slahsdot, not ask slashdot readers to do scientifically sound, heavy research with large sample sizes for you. The author wants to know the readers thoughts, he doesn't (shouldn't) expect 'proof'.
Easy answer? No.
I'm posting anonymously to avoid getting into trouble at work.
Disclosure: I do HR for a Fortune 50, and quite simply resumes without college degrees are rejected as a matter of policy.
It's an impossible sell to even get a candidate without a degree hired no matter how qualified they think they are.
The reasons behind this policy are legion but a quick summary is.
1.) The company does not want to subsidize the cost of your undergrad education should you decide to go back to school. This has been a policy as far back as I can remember, and it makes very effective business sense. The company will pay for a graduate education (and beyond) if the candidate can justify that it would help them do their job.
2.) It shows the candidate is either lazy or unqualified because they couldn't even make the effort to get a diploma from a diploma mill or distance learning institution.
3.) The company maintains a list of schools that they prefer to hire from. It ranks schools in the order of elite, advanced, and minimum standard and for a lot of the IT positions, if your degree isn't from one of the schools on the list of elite schools, you really have no chance of ever getting hired.
4.) Resumes are stored on file basically forever, and all new resumes are screened against previous ones, so that if you reapply five years later with a degree, the system will pick up the change and dismiss the candidate. The HR process is a one time only process.
5.) The company can afford to be choosy. So far in November, we've been screening to hire 5 different IT positions--I have personally handled over 3000 resumes for only five jobs. The leading candidates are all from elite-tier institutions , and the lowest level position is an sysadmin position, and the leading candidate for that is a FILM MAJOR from an Ivy.
So yeah, get back into university, get your degree and then start applying. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by applying without a degree now, it will come back to haunt you.
I would agree with Morgaine. I obtained only an AA in CS Technology before beginning work. I was lucky enough to land a development job out of the gate, and hit the ground running too. The problem is, I not only had a complex of "am I smart enough?" but I also found it difficult to understand complex problems (and the pitfalls) fast enough. I could solve any problem, but sometimes made mistakes that I could have avoided if I had the theory of CS under my belt. That said, companies I worked for paid for me to finish my degree. Looking back on this, I think I got WAY more out of the degree than most students since I had seem some of the problems and currently worked with in the field every day. Long story short, I believe you can get your foot in the door, but you may have to work much harder to keep up with your peers.
I got my first job in the IT field before I graduated with an Associates degree in PC Support. Granted I was at the bottom of the food chain but the main thing is I got a lot of experience working for 10 months in a very technical environment. I then moved out of state once I got my degree and went on to get a very good job in the IT field. I was told my experience was a deciding factor once I got my position. Now my current company is paying for my Certifications.
Funny how you don't actually mention that huge caveat when you talk up getting a job. Do you not think that had some impact, or are you deluded to think that your skills shine through.
I am not saying that people without degrees aren't as skilled at computers. What I am saying is that this is one of the hardest things to get across, to non-technical people. So they go interview by the numbers.
Without an education in this field, you won't even know when you're making a mistake, owing to lack of theory and context. ... And you'll feel dumb every time that you come into contact with other computer people, as well as getting a bad rep because you can't hide ignorance in tech.
Seems like a pretty skewed opinion for an 'educated' fellow. I went through high school taking math electives (and hating them) because I had heard that's what it took to be successful in a computer career. My senior year of high school I actually went to work part time as a computer tech and realized how far off that advice really was.
After that I picked a couple relevant college classes to take and just focused on acquiring practical experience and attending job-specific training (Cisco, Microsoft, etc.). Never once have I felt inferior to my peers due to a lack of a college degree. Instead I've written magazine articles, spoken at national conferences, and been paid to teach others about IT topics.
Theory, principles, historical context, etc. all have their place. But please don't overstate the importance of getting what you need to know for a successful system administration career from a formal college degree program.
I'm a database engineer (software developer) at Microsoft, and I never finished a degree. I started out as a contractor and got hired on after my last contract was up. To me, a degree doesn't make a bit of difference. It's someone's experience and problem-solving skills that matter to me. A degree doesn't make someone a better or worse employee, there are plenty of idiots with or without a degree. All of that being said, there have been some times where it has been harder to get my foot in the door. When it came down to it, I've done just fine.
Wow. You truly must be an asshole.
I'm indeed fairly certain that I got my first job on my skills. My boss interviewed 15-20 people before me, and ended up employing me.
I don't care if it's a boom time or a recession. If you're competent, you'll be able to find a job in IT.
I'm the Senior Systems Administrator for a healthcare IT company and I have no formal education beyond graduating high school.
I have been a Linux SA for four years now for several large companies and have no formal training. In saying that, I had to start right at the bottom in a small business consultancy and work my way up. I also learnt everything I know about Linux on my own back which took a lot longer than it would have had I gone to university.
Dropped out of college after one year. Did the helpdesk thing / tech support thing for about a year at $12 a hr. Now I'm earning 95K + travel all over the country for my job and still get a new job offer about once a week.
No degree yet but I do plan on going back to school to be an effective manager.
Oh and no certs either. Employers (in the *NIX area at least) prefer experience over *anything* paper.
I've been working professionally with computer since 1981, but with no computer degree. I took one course in college and then, several years later, went back for two more courses. At the time I heard the interesting statistic that the majority of computer programmers had undergrad degrees either in English or Psychology. Being a Psych/English double major myself, I assume it's because they found out that real-world jobs in those fields were few and poorly paid compared to the lucrative field of computer programming. Companies were so hungry for computer folk that they were willing to give you a shot if you claimed the necessary skills, whether or not you had the requisite paperwork. Even now, you'll find that later in your career nobody pays much attention to your degree if you have enough experience.
The trouble now is in getting that first job. There are plenty of folk out there with computer degrees and many of those have experience as well. On top of that you have the various "certifications" that are also supposed to imply competence on the part of the bearer. I suppose it's theoretically possible to work your way up under those circumstances, but nobody's going to give you a job just because you know the difference between a GOTO and a GOSUB.
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
One mistake that people often make with this comparison is that they compare two people of otherwise equal experience, but one with a four year degree, and one without.
Clearly, this comparison makes no sense - one of the people has a four year degree. i.e. they have four more years of experience.
If you want a great job in IT, and you don't want to fork out for school, then it's still possible. But don't expect to get one now. Plan for your great break only after committing to 3-4 years of mediocre IT jobs where you are learning while working.
You've still got to put in the time. Depending upon what you do during this time, and what employers you try to find afterwards, the four year degree vs four years of real experience debate could go either way.
What if the person who holds a degree is tired of jumping through hoops in order to get crap done?
There are a few ways to get a job. First, tailor your resume for the job/company for which you are applying. Another way, you have an idea of what you want. Now, find out what the competition is like. You have been doing that by pursuing the job ads. Just remember, some of those ads are written by people that don't know much about what is needed. You see people posting jobs and asking for someone with a MSCS and CCIE and all kinds of Certs just to be a Level 1 call center tech. Target the company/industry/etc. you want to work in. Get some information. Network (which can help you find job leads and possibly get you references later), find out what companies are really looking for (sometimes they post prerequisites for people to discourage just anyone from applying), and research (pay, job requirements, education requirements). Some companies might see you in a better light with any certification or any degree rather than no piece of paper at all. Finally, experience is the best teacher. Have and be able to prove job experience. IT has changed in the past 10 years. More people have IT/CS degrees. But, to have a combination of experience and paper...
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
I've been working for 2 years as a network admin/database administrator/computer repairman/computer teacher, for my company, all without a degree. I used to sell computers to the company I work for, and when I let them know I was quitting, they hired me. The old computer guy retired and now I run the whole show. There's about 50 employees, and that makes for a very busy IT guy. I get paid pretty well. I think the key is to find a smaller company who is willing to invest in their employees.
I got my first programming job when I was 15 because I knew someone working in a software company that threw me a bone and took me on as an intern for $8 an hour. This turned into a really great job where I kind of made a name for myself.
I went to a couple years of college at UW-Madison and then dropped out and started working again.
By now, it really doesn't matter ... I have 11 years of experience under my belt and a fat resume of really successful projects at some of the largest companies in the US.
The trick is just getting in the door. You have to ask yourself the question, "Would I hire me?" What sets you apart from some guy or gal who has a degree in the same field, because that is who you are competing against. If you have something really good going for yourself, you have to somehow convey that to your potential employer. It's just really hard to prove sometimes when you can't even get an interview. That's when knowing people really helps.
Ha, I'm a self-employed consultant (software engineer) doing stuff for the DoD and bill over $200K a year and I only have an Associates degree from a community college. It has taken me 19 years to get to this point tho.
So you can almost do what you are asking but you will need some experience on a resume to get an interview. I did shareware back in the 80s. Today, get involved in open source so you have some bona fides to show.
(I'm posting as a coward as my /. login is my real name)
Um.. I've been working in the sysadmin field for the last 14 years. I have 1/3 of a degree in CS, English and Geography. You just have to be in a position to take junior IT positions (cleaning mice, replacing broken hardware, etc.) and work your way up. You'll probably start out at $10-$12 an hour, have to work long hours and put up with a lot of b.s. from the people you work for.
You'll also need to be dedicated to educating yourself on the technology involved. It will mean buying books out of your own budget and long hours spent in your home lab figuring out how to make things work.
Also plan on replacing the novels and misc. rags sitting next to your toilet with printed copies of RFC documents :)
Anyway, it's possible. Good luck!
I've been in IT for many years and I still don't have an IT degree. I was in Jr college at the time and I got a part time job as a "computer operator", which was like a junior sysadmin. I took a single HPUX class and a couple programming classes on my own time because I was into that sort of thing anyway.
I ran batch jobs and backups, mostly, working crap overnight hours and holidays. After 5 years I worked my way up to full sysadmin over a data center with 4 HP-UX servers and 3 assistants.
The key is you are going to have to start at the bottom and learn everything on the job and on your own time if you don't learn it at school. It's an option, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily any better than just getting that degree and starting a bit higher up the food chain.
I'm with you, HappyDrgn. I went to Uni for three years, but didn't graduate. This was because I went for a job where 150 of us sat an aptitude test. After the results came out, I reckon they wouldn't have cared if the top 20 of us were in the prison system. I'm a pure techo, and Uni didn't teach me anything new about computers, although I use the higher maths that I learned every day. Having said this, I reckon I'd be a pretty crap manager, and a few extra courses might have smoothed off some of the rough edges, but hearding sheep has never really appealed to me. There are people in my field (performance engineer) that I respect for their higher learning, usually in the statistices field where the sort of discipline required can only come from Uni, although I personally wouldn't spend the extra four years to get to that level.
Skye,
Your statements still make you sound like a fan of bullshit, regardless of your claiming the contrary. True professionals spot the bullshit and do their best to eliminate it from the process ~ I.e. they get shit done, regardless of the obstacles (Within reason, of course).
I'm similar to Instine, in the fact that I studied Astronomy and Physics, but never finished school (Got half way through my junior year).
I now have a good IT position (Systems Architect) with a large corporation. My resume is very solid, regardless of my so called lack of formal education. I am, however, an autodidact and very interested in my field (Interested in everything, actually, but I digress). I've worked with many highly educated folks who were functionally worthless in this field. The college degree's will help you with computer and information science theory, but, in most cases, won't give you many marketable skills or experience in applying it. Companies have to train college grads on the latest tools, HW, and applications anyhow, because in IT, it all evolves rapidly and the schools cannot keep up with it.
I entered into my first professional gig based upon the referral of someone that knew how talented I was with troubleshooting machines and software, so the old 'who you know' paradigm definitely helped in my case. Once, I landed my first professional position, I rapidly advanced because I was very good at it, and could learn new technologies much faster than my peers. I also new how to communicate with non-technical people in a way that helped them understand the practical applications and limits of a given technology. This is a skill that to few in the field have.
I think you and I are in the same camp. I dropped out after my first year of college in 1994 and started working in the tech bench at a big box retailer. Eventually, I moved through a few different positions, computer operator at a bank, then the data processing center at another company, until I got hired on to do phone support for our data products.
Eventually I moved into tech support, which led to a sysadmin career and then technical training. During that time, I pursued both the MCSE and CCNA certifications. Some of my certs were sponsored by my employer, others were not. After doing sysadmin work for a number of years, I moved into a more soft-skills focused role.
I've been more of a process management / performance management / business intelligence specialist the last couple of years. I just finished the first draft of my second book, and I will probably gross six figures this year. Not bad for an English major who dropped out after Freshman Year.
The bottom line is this. Whether or not you have a degree, expect to start at the bottom, and work your way up. If you advance too soon, you may be in over your head. If your career stagnates, it's because you haven't put enough initiative in moving forward.
Never be afraid of a challenge. My specialty is in Microsoft SysAdmin, but I can configure Cisco routers and switches with the best of them. I've installed a few Linux testbeds, and while it's not my OS of choice, I can manage my way through it.
I will say this; if you're not going to get a degree, at least pursue a basic cert like A+ or Network+ to start.
Hmm.. I do have a degree, and I don't care one whit whether applicants have a degree or not (and I care even less about certifications). The bulk of what I learned in college is useless in my job (sysadmin), the bulk of what I use daily I learned on my own. I even place more importance these days on a person's ability (and especially drive) to learn on their own over experience anymore. I'd rather hire a driven person with little to no experience over a person with years as an admin that balks at learning new stuff. The latter tend to be the ones that try to get others to do most of their work for them rather then spend some time learning something new to finish a task too.
I don't really see much of an elitist (with respect to degrees.. yes many are very elitist in general about computer knowledge) in the people I work with in IT, but that's me.
- My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
The long answer is... While many companies mention a CS degree requirement for Sysadmin Jobs, I have found that they usually leave out the "or equivalent experience" in the offering to cut down on the truly inexperienced admins applying for any sysadmin position. I personally don't have a degree but this has never prevented me from getting a job. Traditionally, their has been little crossover between a CS degree and good sysadmin ability, though this may be changing nowadays with some schools offering a glimpse into what we do. Just know that 1) there are good IT jobs out there and 2) you don't need a degree to get it. I'm living proof. :)
I just lost a whole minute because you didn't even go through the effort to prove that you were willing to use your brain before posting... or thinking for that matter...
Interesting you would say such a thing...
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/04/2210200
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/25/139203
While there have been a zillion postings on /. about uselessness of certifications and degrees when interviewing sys admins, dba's, programmers, and engineers, I look for both certs and degrees as evidence that the applicant can not only learn, but put up with the inevitable aggravations of any organization of 100+ employees.
If you don't want to go to college or take exams for certs, then your outstanding professional skills should get you past the interview process for an underpaying job in a smaller company. Then, you can build references and real-life skills and interview for larger organizations more likely to pay more for your time.
Just remember that lack of certs and degrees will always mean that some companies won't even let you interview. Fortunately, you don't NEED a million jobs, just one at any one moment in your life.
Best of luck....
If I have a choice between being lucky or being good, I'll take lucky every time.
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
The reality is that university degrees, saving a small percentage of highly technical schools, mean absolutely nothing and in no way indicate the capability of the person that has them. I have one from a state school that has a fairly prestigious technology curriculum because my parents thought was important. I have never listed it on a resume and I have been working in this industry since I got out of high school making real money. These days I make alot of money doing something I love and learning new things every day and no one has ever asked me if I have a degree. Comp sci and bis programs in most schools are absolutely worthless as far as their ability to teach you skills that you can use in the workplace. While interviewing people do often ask me about my technical expertise though. Some bigger larger companies that I have worked for conduct several highly technical interviews and are even smart enough to look for overall aptitude above specific skills. To do this successfully, at a high level in the real world you need to have IT .... and that's not an acronym. It's the ability to put 1+1 together and get 4 ... get from a to d without going through B and C ... something that isn't as common as you might think
You need to have very diverse skill sets and experience that allow you to make neural connections quickly that others don't. One of my best hires was a kid that grew up farming and tinkered with electrical engineering .... part of IT is also a passion for learning and finding answers.
I work for a community college as the network specialist. One of the requirements for the position was a B/S in computer science. What a waste of time that would have been. Instead of taking courses to program in COBOL (a requirement in the curriculum I looked into) I opted to freelance, and gain experience points working on production Cisco networks. I have a CCNA, that helped me get started, but in real world environments, itâ(TM)s only a primmer.
Higher education is a good thing if you need to have the structure. If youâ(TM)re a self starter, motivated, and have a professional work ethic, you can BS the BS degree. You might find difficulty convincing a techtarded employer that a degree is not necessary, as I have on occasion. Do you really want to work for someone who values paper appearance vs. real world experience anyhow?
I will say this, in the government education microcosm which Iâ(TM)m a part of, the degree looks really important. Especially when youâ(TM)re introduced on your first day as this is bobâ¦and heâ(TM)s got a AA/S fromâ¦.seems to be a posturing thing.
I'm a Google SRE, and I didn't go to college. I started here at 18 and spent three years working hard, and eventually moved up. I've been here 5 years now. I imagine there are plenty of open-minded employers who would let you do something similar.
It's a question of how much time you want to invest gaining experience. My guess is that whether you spend 4 years in college or 4 years learning on the job, you're looking at a similar time commitment.
Nice generality that isn't remotely correct. The value of the bachelor's degree depends on the choice of degree.
You miss my point completely. Time spent studying is time spent studying, whether in a university, in your own home, or at a broke ass public library computer terminal.
A degree is motivation for the student, nothing more.
Every competent manager I have ever worked for has had a mortal disdain for CS students without 3+ years real world experience, because that is about how long it takes for the reality to sink in for most degree holders... in the corporate world it boils down to A Real World Track Record.
I am speaking from experience as a currently self employed programmer who spent years maintaining infrastructure for a regional auto parts chain while paying my dues, moved on to slightly bigger pastures, and then found a nice cozy niche of my very own.
If you live near any higher education institutions I'd suggest socializing within those circles while you're working your way up.
The majority of my friends at the University level cherish the few students that pass through their classes on the way to bigger and better things. The sad fact is that most kids go to college because that is what is expected of them, and most professors I know go through periods of disillusionment due to the lack of dedication displayed by the majority of their charges.
I wonder why Dilbert rings true with so many IT veterans... If advanced degrees insure proficiency where the hell's all the MBA talent?
The only way that lacking a college degree could have hindered my career is if I had been the sort to get hung up about starting at the bottom. I was not that sort, and now I live on my own terms, with a wide network of contacts that I met while successfully delivering technical services over the years. Anyhow, CS grads prolly wouldn't be the butts of so many jokes if companies didn't keep hiring them in way above their experience level, but that's life.
College Degree not required.
As a college student getting ready to graduate in a couple of weeks I cannot be more greatful for my degree. I have less than two years of experience in the Telecom/IT world but my degree will get me in the door to gain the valuable experience I need to excel in my field. With the economy the way it is now it would be hard to gain qaulity job prospects without a college undergraduate degree and win a position.
Well, I've done ALL you have as far as "notoriety" in this field, as far back as 12 yrs++ ago, & up to as late as only 5 yrs. ago... & many times, having my work appear in the likes of Windows IT Pro mag for instance (widely recognized & respected) to great review, and that same work took that article's wares & theories to practice several years later (6 to be precise) to a finalist 2 yrs. in a row @ MS Tech-Ed 2000-2002, in its hardest category: SQLServer Performance enhancement.
That's just one, would you like more? I have another 10 that are easily verified, & even by major publications and companies in this field/art & science.
See - You're not the "only game in town here", & I strongly suspect your alleged accomplishments are QUITE a bit less than that, based on what you stated, thusfar, in regards to them... those?
They're cake, personally, & speaking as a peer...
Thus, I am going to speak a BIT more bluntly, than the person you are cutting down:
System Admins/Network engineers or techs & the like?
To put it bluntly, as far as their "knowledgebase" (such as it is)?
They are relative MORONS by way of comparison to what a GOOD programmer with many years of experience under his belt especially, & what they know, period.
Most coders have done most of what networkers do, because, let's face it: It's easy by way of comparison, & part of the job. Especially considering the fact that most network monkeys only USE, what programmers MADE FOR THEM TO USE, & most couldn't do it themselves to save their own lives.. funny how you omit that much!
There is clearly no comparison - it would be like comparing a 1st grader, vs. a college grad.
It is a fantastic entry level position. Many great coders I know started out in phone support or other similar jobs. It teaches you:
*Communication skills with non-technical people. It always amazes me how bad some people in IT are in regards to communication with other people. The scary part is I find the more qualified someone is, the worse they are at communicating, it is almost as if they feel that communicating with non-IT people is beneath them.
*Troubleshooting skills (so long as it is a non-scripted support role). You have to think on the fly - a customer on the other end of the line is not going to put up with an answer of "it's too hard - go away". You have to rapidly diagnose possible causes and propose solutions.
*You learn to deal with incompetent / abusive people. Similar but not the same as learning communication skills.
*Following tasks through to completion. The customer will just keep calling back if you dont fix the problem. You lose the concept of the 'too hard basket'.
*Humility. You get out of the mindset of 'I am too good for X job'
I started out in IT in phone support and as much as I hated every moment of it, it has served a great purpose. I have since had no issues finding very well paid positions in development without a degree (and yes this was post-dot-com). However I was also doing freelance dev on the side as well as using the phone support pay checks to pay for some certification (however basic it was). If I was interviewing someone and they said they did Level 1 phone support for 2 years and did nothing else I would not hire them - not based on them having done phone support but based on them showing no personal motivation. In the type of position I am interviewing I need someone who is very pro-active in responding to issues, not someone who sits back and waits for someone to tell them what to do.
The key is to demonstrate personal motivation and desire to contribute ie work ethic. This has nothing to do with what types of jobs previously worked. It is quite pathetic the number of people when interviewed and asked the question 'why do you want to work here?' will go on for several minutes on what they will gain from the employment and do not bother to mention what they will contribute back. Even if you don't mean any of it - at least you have put some thought into it.
The big problem these days, especially with new grads, is that they expect to land a senior position irrespective of how little experience they have. For a senior position I do not care if a candidate can write an algorithm slightly more efficiently than the next candidate - I want to know how they will react in a situation that is not taught in their degree - eg how to handle several critical deadlines if it is impossible to meet all of them or how to react in the case of something going really bad. This is where I have found non-grads tend to excel - they do not expect a senior position straight away and those that are experienced generally have worked much harder to get where they are (and thus have gained more experience along the way). Having said that - there are many fantastic grads as well (and many pathetic non-grads).
A degree is purely a tool to help you, it is not the be all and end all as some seem to think it is.
If I may share how I landed my current job:
Like you, I have no degree, although I spent a significant amount of time in two universities. What I did have was a year and a half's worth of experience as a fraternity house IT person and the chapter webmaster, and several years of my childhood Saturdays spent in a Japanese "cram school"-- yes, in America. When I moved back home a year before the current recession officially started (the area I was living in was already facing more IT people than jobs), I immediately started looking through employment agencies as I had zero network connections in the area-- and yes, if you have no network, they really can be your best shot. It took two and a half months, but my contact found an employer who needed someone fluent in Japanese with IT skills who was either a citizen or a permanent resident-- less than a year later, my coworker had to leave because her student visa expired and she wasn't able to get an H1-B ahead of time.
Now, granted, the current downturn will make job hunting even more difficult than my situation 2 years ago, much less if you don't have skills other than IT, and you only contact those who are looking for straight-up IT specialists. That's a scenario where, as other commenters have mentioned, the candidates with degrees win. The key is to leverage your way into a spot where your skills match your prospective employer's needs, and then convince them that hiring you would be a great idea. If you can't manage that, you'll need to do it the hard way and take a less-desirable job to support yourself while you build the skills you need in your spare time. Or, if you're still financially able to go to school, get that degree.
And don't rely on Monster alone. I tried that and got exactly zero hits.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
I am a self taught IT geek with no degree or formal training in the area. When i was living in London a few years ago I had a few sys admin jobs and a few people i know were doing similar things with out the formal qualifications that seem to be so sort after nowadays. Saying that, now i live back in Aus and trust me no degree = no "real IT" work here so and i would presume that this is the same issue in the US. HR in corporate environments seem to have lost their way with what experience really is vs that piece of paper saying that you can do the job. If they only ignored qualifications to allow people to the interview, the occasion when i've gotten to that point i've shocked them with my corporate references from previous employment. Alas now i am doing my degree, cant keep up with the market without it now.
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck??
Honestly that's an odd thing to say, you think it's bullshit but you want proof someone went through a bunch of it? I guess you could just as easily come at it from the other side and say if they will waste a bunch of time doing something irrelevant why wouldn't they waste a bunch of time when you hire them? Either way your view that education is hoops and bullshit says something about either the current education system or society.
You are better off getting a 4 year degree. In retrospect, I wish I had.
However, I never got a degree and I am doing OK. 6 figure salary and all the side project hours I could want doing interesting Linux stuff.
Not having a degree definitely closes some doors, but experience trumps a degree in this line of work.
My first serious job was as a sysadmin for a small software company in the mid-nineties. At the time I was attending university pursuing a BS CS degree. I had no prior sysadmin experience, but worked my way up into the position doing technical support.
Fast forward to today, some 10 years later: I never finished my degree (only completed maybe 50-75%) and am earning ~$105k as a software engineer at a pretty prestigious institution that hires lots of PhDs and other advanced degree holders.
The bottom line is this: If you can prove yourself, there is hope for a decent IT career without a degree.
Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
Your ability to get into a good IT career will always depend on your experience and personality. Technology is unique as achievment is based on your passion and willingness to learn. It is possible to find a good job without a degree, but propably not your first job. To begin you should seek an opening position in some form of IT support role like tech support, helpdesk, call center, etc... This will help establish yourself and provide proof of your willingness to do the work.
Don't let people discourage you, a real interviewer knows that in today's world there's more to an employee than a degree or fancy resume. A resume only gets you a conversation, the rest is up to you. If you can prove you have a compatible personality and relevant experience then your on the right track. Anyone who is so close minded that believes a degree is the only way to prove your worth, is probably not the person you want to work for.
Innovators are born, not learned
I didn't bother getting a degree as i looked at my friends who had and after several years at University they graduated to get a job at McDonald's!!!!
However in saying that I would recommend education , but in a specialized field.
For instance in you want to be a sysadmin, you probably want an Microsoft cert - MSCE (or MCITPe as its called now) and a Cisco cert - CCNA or CCNP.
After you've got them go an get a crappy job such as help desk or Junior sysadmin and get some real world experince.
If your a quick learner you will get ahead in a few years. Beside I.T. Changes every 3 years so what you learned 3 years ago will probably not be that relevant - except for the fundamental (such as TCP/IP).
I'm a high school drop out. I don't even have a G.E.D. Without any experience or connections I landed a job at MediaDefender through craigslist as a SysAdmin. My only prior job experience was working at a gas station attendant pumping gas, for three years.
However, I was always a proficient programmer. At age 16 I had already written port scanners, packet sniffers, games, etc. I knew C, C++, perl, html, etc. I also knew how to maintain a linux machine. (had been using Linux since I was 15, specially for a audio creation.) I was very familiar with package management and software compilation.
I don't think I could stomach one day in school, seems utterly pointless. I learn much faster on my own.
So, now after 3 years in the IT industry. I am now a full time perl developer for a F500 company making $60K a year.
Not bad for a high school dropout.
So no, you don't need a degree OR connections. You just need to be good. Hell, you don't even need a job to make money in IT.
Self taught are generally more passionate for computing, most students just want a stable job that pays well.
If you feel you need school to land a SysAdmin job, then you probably suck.
BTW, I'm 22 now.
...and the admissions departments being held to quotas of "minorities" far outnumbering the amount of educatable individuals does nothing to offset that.
The only thing we can do to truly held "unprivileged" classes is to leave them alone. How can someone gain the same life skills when they aren't allowed to compete for their accolades?
Depends on where you are, I have been in IT for about 3 years now (in Australia) Never finished high school and have zero qualifications. I started in help desk where I worked with all sorts of people some graduates some not.
I often found the graduates were a lot less interested in technology as a whole and didn't want learn anything new.
anyways I now work for a large bank where I am going to be the "Senior" system admin for our upcoming blade server and virtualization upgrades and it was all because I showed an interest and went out and learnt a lot on my own in my own time.
Wait...
You got where you are based on luck...but you are in a warzone?
Was that bad luck?
No reason to lie.
I am a (soon to be) 31yr old Sysadmin without a degree. I've been sysadmining for about 15 years now, and it did take a bit of luck perhaps to break into the industry. you just have to put in extra time than those with a degree. (which I argue, makes you a better sysadmin than those who start with 0 experience) I would consider myself "successful," (I'm above 6 figures at the moment and have 4 direct reports) However, I will say I have noticed a perceived ceiling. perhaps related? unclear, but it's either go up the management chain, where a degree is definitely required if i ever moved positions, or stay down in the technical areas, where experience can count as a degree. Regardless, I am a sysadmin for a company that does tuition reimbursement, so I am using that benefit to hopefully fix at least the BS piece of paper, on something i find more interesting and as a hobby. (Electronic Engineering)
Wait... this is the Internet, right? You're supposed to argue with me and fling meaningless insults.
You're right and I totally agree. For jobs where human lives or millions of dollars are at stake, it's probably a good idea to impose some sort of rigorous examination and regulation. Accreditation and standards are important.
I'd rather put the regulation of standards and examination in the hands of an unbiased non-profit professional organization.
The worlds greatest lawyer to come out of the greatest law school could just be the greatest cheater or worse... didn't even have to try that hard.
Cheers.
Look - I did it and I'm doing it.
I barely graduated high school - went directly into construction. Worked my way up through construction management all the while "hacking" my way through company computer systems.
I truly had a "lucky break" where I'd worked my a** off, impressed the right people at the right time, and was asked to be a Director of I.T.
No College, no certifications.
Subsequently as that company went out of business I applied for a job on Craigslist with a non-profit and got it. I am gifted with great interview skills... but the tough part is getting in the door. I must've applied for 150+ jobs before getting 2-3 callbacks.
It's very hard to get the callback without the degree or cert, but it does happen.
Then when I was laid-off from that non-profit after 4 years... I responded to an add for another and got another well-paying IT Management/Sysadmin job.
I'm not rolling in the dough but I'm 31 and I'm providing well for my wife and kids completely by myself (she does not work). We have a nice house in the suburbs of Denver and I have great job security where I'm currently at.
I've certainly been blessed by God in this - but the point is that it can be done.
Be prepared, you'll have to work harder and earn less despite often being smarter and having better skills.
but it can be done.
Sooo do you have any jobs in Jacksonville, FL? I'd LOVE to work for someone like you! wyvernATphoenixphamilyDOTcom
Oops..was I supposed to push that button?
Hey! Not TRUE!
My personal story starts with breaking into BIG IT in 2006. So there! And I was picked over people with masters degrees. Guess starting programming at 14 helps, since I am 24 now...
In the current market getting a job without a degree is almost impossible.
I disagree. For any company that's worth working for, it's not what you have, it's what you can do - and the enlightened ones know this. I've seen both sides of the coin - and based on what I've seen from people with degrees, most of the time it's nothing to write home about. Many people get degrees in IT not because of a passion they're after, but because that's where the money is.
Uh... you guys do know that "engine"er comes from a trade? right? ( it was the guy that conducted, fixed the trains ;) )
Oh wait, I'm sure you both have your PE's. Right?
Its funny seeing programmers, because computer scientist you surely are not, bitch about the engineer title. Then I ask them if they have their PE, which is based on Apprenticeship, and then love to see their blank stare lol
"what's a pe?"
Look, while there are many unqualified and cert monkeys passing themselves as sysadmin, a true sysadmin, systems engineer is closer to the true meaning of an engineer, then someone with a CS degree is.
The role of the sysadmin, is a true systems engineer ( look up that meaning too, you'll see).
A true sys. admin, or systems engineer in IT, looks at the whole system, and uses components as building blocks to a scalable and stable architecture.
My story seemed like a successful one. And yet, it is indeed the simple piece of paper holding me back.
I began hobbyist programming in 8th grade working on command line game servers. When I was in high school they paid for me to take computer science classes at our university because they didn't offer any. I continued doing hobbyist programming, landed a huge scholarship for computer science, did paid custom coding projects for professors on campus and other individuals, worked computer tech on campus, and then I ended up with an internship freshman year at a big company working on flight control software. I worked my ass off all summer, then asked them if I performed as well as a new hire, fresh from college. Their response was that I had performed beyond their expectations of any new hire. So I asked them, if I perform as well as or better then a normal new hire with a degree, why not hire me? Why wait another 2+ years? They were hiring people like nuts, I was willing to work hard (10-12 hours days most of my internship), relocate at my own expense, and leave school. Their response, however, was that I lacked a degree.
And so I have returned to college where I have taken every course required by the computer science department to graduate by the end of sophomore year. All I lack are the other 50 hours of gen ed and electives. I continue to jump through bullshit hoops at my university and pay money I don't have, hoping to one day find a company willing to employ me so I don't have to wait two more years to apply my skills full time. I fully intend to get the degree, but with mostly gen ed left, I don't see why I can't do that during night classes or online while working full time so I can actually afford it.
From other companies I have inquired about, their response is much of the same. Internship? Sure! Job? No way, get the paper.
So, even after putting myself in the best position possible (as far as I could tell anyway), I was still denied. And yet I know graduates from our program who can't fix syntax errors and have never programmed beyond what was required by their classes that are landing jobs simply by their degrees. Knowing these people are getting jobs not only scares me, but makes me want to change professions. How do you work with someone who barely comprehends the basics of the tool that is required to do the job?
The only good thing I've found out from all of this is that most companies don't really care between a BA or BS in computer science, just that I have the degree, which can make my life a bit easier.
Computer janitor, huh?
Look, a true sys admin or systems engineer is truer to "engineering" than "CS" is to "science".
Most CS graduates are venerable code drones, doing fixes and minor features at the helm of Pm's. That sounds more like a janitor to me.
Sys admin work is true systems engineering. iow, building complex systems out of building blocks. Way more interesting than being a code monkey for the most part.
( and btw, most good admins can code )
Spend time and show work ethic and performance and results. That will always move you forward.
Hard work and dedication have always done it for me.
Get in the door of a good place, then work at it. If you are good, you will move forward. Simple...
While I agree that some of the smartest people I've worked with don't have degrees, it's harder to convince HR, etc., What's worse is that our specialized industry certifications aren't a guarantee of being a competent employee or getting a job.
Personally, I don't like certs much, but when you have nothing, getting your A+, MCP, or CNA is a start. It will make your resume looks less empty.
I'd say that about half of the people where I live have degrees of some sort with the other half purely being self-taught. The folks I talk to with without degrees report a harder time getting their foot in the door and a harder time getting promoted after a certain level.
If you're the self-starter/entrepreneur type, I'd recommend getting any IT-related job you can, including Geek squad or a local PC repair shop for a couple of years to learn what customer support means and get some experience and then take off on your own when you think you can do better than who you work for.
Here's the most important part: With whatever job you get, work hard and show up on time. Being a good worker is something that takes practice. If you slack off because you have a "unimportant" or entry-level job, you'll develop bad work habits. If you work hard people will notice. After a few years (which seems like an eternity when you're just out of high school), former co-workers will start asking you if you want a job when they have openings.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
Yup, it's possible to get a considerably well paid IT job without a degree. It all depends on which employers you find, so job hunting is the most complicated part of it. As an example, you can take myself: I started computer programming as a kid, quit school a year early, and have now over 25 years of programming experience in my book, despite being just 38. Finding an employer can be a tough one, though. I've been unemployed for about half a year now, and haven't found any new job yet. The current economical crisis might also factor into this. With a degree you might have more job options, but it all depends on the conservativism of a work environment; so, if someone hires only graduates, that might not be a company you'd want to work for anyway. In some companies you'd only get looked down upon, so choosing your employer carefully is a necessity, despite the urge to get a job.
WTH are you talking about? Maybe Ivy League colleges are easier if your dad went there, but that doesn't mean it's easier for a Caucasian either.
Have you looked at the scholarships available for minorities lately?
Ivy League schools aren't the only game in town.
--- The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw.
Then you've never worked for companies like NeXT, HP, Intel, AMD, IBM, Honda, Toyota, Boeing, et.al or any other corporation that relies on leading experts in their fields to lead their respective industries forward with product development.
Let's just say my Mechanical Engineering degree and Computer Science degree, combined with my years of IT support at a major University, plus tutoring a wide variety of subjects and students, not to mention my years of networking are what made it possible to get into companies like NeXT and Apple.
There are a lot of companies that will throw 20 bodies to resolve issues a team of 5 diversely skilled professionals can do; and when economies scale back those 15 people with limited skill sets and backgrounds are the first to go.
For less life-critical systems like the ones that involve security (see also protection of privacy, or protection from identity theft and fraud), I guess you could get away if your prospects "demonstrate their ability to perform", but considering the liability issues, that may be a bigger risk than some employers are willing to take.
On the other hand, for video games or MP3 players, I guess I don't care what your credentials are. You are likely to do damage only to your employer's reputation.
I'd do agree that at some point, demonstrated ability is better than a degree - but it's tough for prospective employers to assess ability. It's easier to verify a degree. Plus, a degree should also certify that the prospective employee has passed classes in written communication and technical presentation, which might even be more valuable than the strictly technical skills. (Some of my coworkers excepted.)
* - I guess I'm assuming that CS students still study things like the Therac incident. I went to a state school for CS almost 2 decades ago, and we did.
I graduated High School and took 2 semesters of college (didn't pass any classes)...
How did you manage that? I think I passed most of my first year classes without actually attending any classes except the tests. Were you purposefully answering the test questions wrong? Did you scratch insults signed with your name on your professors' cars? Get caught performing indecent acts with the dean's daughter?
Dude, I'm a dropout. I started working real jobs 3 years ago. Came on board to a startup that will remain nameless. They brought me on at 39k and had me doing tech support BS.
I didn't take crap from anyone, especially because (initially anyway) I lived at home and had nothing to lose. After a month or two into it, I got called out on my incessant bitching about how I could make things better for them (as opposed to flipping tickets) -- they gave me a chance. I kicked ass. They tried to give me a raise to 42k when I approached the topic. I calmly shot it down. I got 50k. Bought a car, moved out. Year later, more ass kicking. 60k.
I led the direction of technology at this company at 21yrs old. I left at 70k, with a damn solid resume.
Now, what does any of this mean for you? Well, if you don't have a damn solid resume, you might need to take shit to get started. You'll likely not get very far working for a really corporate place. Startups are your friend, because they are generally clueless about IT, and scare the shit out of people that actually know their stuff. Thing is, if their business model is sound, and you can get their tech straight, this is a HUGE opportunity.
I left the place recently. Got snatched up almost instantly at a new company downtown, making more money, at a better place, etc. etc.
As long as you know your shit, or have a reasonable belief that you can learn it -- take risks, huge risks, even. Just remember, you may get called on it, and if you do, that just means you gotta do what you wanted to do in the first place.
If you're self-directed and self-motivated, and confident, you'll go far. None of this stuff is anything you can't pick up.
Avoid the corporate hellholes. They're old money that's swirling down the drain, and overrun by management fucktards just looking to hire someone like you for 1/4 what you're worth to do shit-work that won't take you anywhere.
Avoid middle managers -- they only care about how they look. You should have two things you care about:
1. How can you help the company
2. What do you need to do to fulfill #1, and how much will this help the company, and over what period of time.
Anyone getting in the way of this is obstructionist. Go over heads if this is the case. Understand you'll be talking to important people. Be composed. Don't rant / be negative. Understand this is about money and business. How can you make it better? Make your pitch.
And, these startups know there are hackers out there that are willing to do the job for less than the 6-figure demanding graduate that doesn't know their ass from their head.
All of this assumes that you are a true geek at heart, and actually care about the job you are applying for.
For example:
If you're applying for a job involving Linux, but you don't run it at home -- NONE OF THIS APPLIES TO YOU.
What year did you start? How many graduates were there in IT related majors at the time, competing against you?
The people who've said networking is the way to go are, of course, right. All my best jobs have come that way; what few I've gotten from the classifieds (online or otherwise) have been crummy.
But either way, I've learned that it's best to try for jobs with smaller companies. Anyplace big enough to have an HR department will, often as not, screen out your resume if it lacks some credential they specify (college degree at a minimum, usually), whereas a smaller outfit will have a human reading them and might actually give your application enough attention to see that you have something to offer.
Once you get an interview, your degree or lack thereof no longer is important. Just like it won't matter if you actually get the job. What the degree does for you is keep your resume from being tossed out the door during the first round of culling.
Perfectly Normal Industries
I've been working in the gnu/linux field as a sysadmin or software engineer for over 10 years now. No degree, never went to college, self-taught and earning six figures in silicon valley.
Degrees are not needed, talent, experience, dedication, enthusiasm, and determination are. The more experience and good references you get the easier it is. No degree can compete with officers of successful tech companies willing to advocate you as a top notch engineer.
I did not finish Uni because I was snapped up by a big corp due to my skills before I had a chance to finish my degree. I would have loved to finish it, but world hopping is not very conducive to this, so I gave it a miss...
Many moons later I still don't have a degree, I really don't need it any more.
In an interview situation I would put your offer under the microscope before deciding if I want to work with (not for) you. I can tell you without any shade of irony that I have more choices of good companies that you have of good candidates for a position in my field, so if being in a weak negotiating position you would pull the "have you got a degree" nonsense in front of me you would lose me, to the detriment of your organization.
My advice is not to be dogmatic.
Obtaining formal education is a good indicator of character, all other things being equal, the fact is that normally all the things that should matter to differentiate candidates aren't equal 99% of the time, thus Uni education is a differentiator that clever hirers use rarely.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Many folks here are talking about HR departments.
Ha! Companies with a few employees will not have such luxury. That is the place where you can start and where you have got a better chance.
Build your expertise, get some certifications and you will be where you want sooner than you think.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I'm 25, i don't have a degree, i don't have any certs either - i'm the information systems manager for an insurance company in california; i'm only pulling in about 80k a year but have a staff of 8 and service hundreds of users. just goes to show - if you know your stuff, and can sell yourself (much less perform your job duties properly) - you can do anything! :)
I don't have a degree and I have a great job in IT. It's at a university actually. :-) I also know many professionals in IT, including current and former coworkers, without degrees. My former manager went from being a housewife, to a librarian's assistant, to a Technician, to Manager in less than 10 years without any formal training.
My coworkers with degrees are great at what they do, and I highly value having a degree of some sort, but I don't think the degree gave them what they needed to do the job. Some of the coworkers with degrees have completely unrelated degrees like history, or English.
All of that aside, if you can get a degree, DO. You will most likely be paid more, be more respected by your peers, and make lifelong friends with people who can recommend you when you apply at the company they work for.
Best of luck to you adh0c
Borphos
Frankly unless you're up for management I don't see a need for a degree.
First of all, the company I work for (global corp with 500k+ employees) doesn't give a damm if you have a degree or not (at least here in Europe). However, if you have no experience, they allow you to work your way up the ladder, which is in my opinion best way of making a career despite the degree. Throughout my 9 years career I've seen bunch of college graduates making a fast track management careers in IT, but they have never been as good leaders as the people who just work their way up old fashion way. So yes, you can have the job no problem, just expect it's going to take the time to get better money, respect and responsibility.
If you don't have a degree and you're good at programming, you might want to try out freelancing. It's one place where people don't really care for what you are, who you are or where you are as long as you produce good software.
Besides, most of the good programmer folks out there who do have a degree, don't necessarily have it in a computer related discipline!
The real question is not EDUCATION vs. EXPERIENCE, because experience means education. Most of the programmers that don't have a degree did study by themselves. The real question is diplomas vs. experience. Companies an people tend to believe that a diploma on the wall is a proof of something. Let me tell you that is just a proof of the ignorance. Internet and programming evolved thanks to enthusiasts that didn't care so much for a diploma. And I would hire anytime an experienced programmer over a diplomat one.
the IT industry has nothing to offer except consulting jobs where you sell crap to incompetent people.
BUT you need paper for everything here. Even for a job you didn't want.
If you're into IT and creative... stay the hell away from here.
We even have to pay taxes for our computers since the public TV offers it's crap program in the internet without asking. Innovation hasn't been killed earlier and more painful than like that.
I have a fantastic IT position with no degree. My tips:
1) Be professional, meet lots of people, show that you are willing to work, etc. If people like you and know that you would appreciate working for them, that goes a long way. It always amazes me how many people display 0 appreciation for having a job until they don't have it.
2) Start your own little business and do contract jobs. Small businesses want a guy who is dependable and available. And they'll pay well for it. No one ever asked me about having a degree and eventually one of my bigger clients hired me full-time.
I started with technical support, albeit top level ISP support. I did that for 2 years all the while learning SQL, BASH scripting and the usual MS Office stuff before getting in on the ground level of a new department. It was part luck, part timing and part skill but I'm now a DBA/Analyst/Tools Developer for that same ISP...and now more than ever they love to hear the word "FREE" so they gave me 3 severs for Linux development.
I have a degree, though...in CLASSICAL GUITAR PERFORMANCE...but they weren't hiring musicians at the time...
I've had conversations with people that have a "proper CompSci education" and they couldn't hold an intelligent conversation about programming with a monkey.
The ability to speak to monkeys would be a plus in this tight job market.
I'll be graduating in December, meaning I'll have my degree and all, and despite spending the last 4.5 years working in the "IT Industry" (support, web dev, quality assurance) I'm still finding it very difficult to find a job. But, given the sheer number of positions that require a degree to even be considered, I'd say you're penalizing yourself before hand. Best bet - internships and on the job learning. I have had very few classes which directly will apply to the job area I've chosen (sys admin ideally). Its been the on the job experience that has landed me the interviews thus far, but that only gets me so far, and only if I get my foot in the door first - which is what I'm now coming to realize is what a degree is for.
I agree that having a degree from a respected institution tends to help open doors and make life easier in general. Some larger and more conservative companies will not even hire or promote you without a bachelors degree or better. However, I wouldn't say that all individuals would be well advised to pursue a degree, especially if they're already doing well in the working world.
At many smaller organizations it's more a function of how intelligent, capable, and sophisticated you are. Many people ascribe to "lack of degree" problems that are really the result of poor communication skills or lack of polish (which may tend to correlate with formal education but are _not_ the same thing). Someone that has these skills is far less likely to be passed over in a more entrepreneurial organization that cares more about results than procedures or appearance. Someone with solid communication skills, that understands the concerns of management, and has broader interests, and so on will fair much better (even over people with degrees from presumably good schools).
If one cannot attend a well respected institution and/or obtain a somewhat relevant degree for whatever reason (e.g., financial, educational background, etc), then essentially dropping out of the work force for 4 or more years is not necessarily a good decision. This time out of the work force or working part-time is an opportunity cost, more so if they have some highly needed skill-set or a particular opportunity available to them at that moment that they would otherwise turn away from. This is even more true if one is not going to get a lot out of the degree because they're not motivated or interested in the work.
I have known tons of people with degrees (BS - PhD) from some of the best schools in the country that basically go nowhere because they frankly never got much value out of their education (i.e., they just cruised through because that's what was easy) and/or lacked the intelligence or the work ethic to add real value. It's far from an automatic key to success. Intelligent people with the focus and the drive to bring real insight to problems are rare commodity in this world, with or without extensive formal education, and these are the people that tend to succeed in areas like IT, business, etc.
In short, while a bachelors degree tends to help significantly, it depends a lot on the situation and the answer is much less obvious the further one gets away from high school.
Accreditation is important, but even a student with the best grades from the finest engineering institution may turn out to be the greatest cheater.
Yet I may not have been in school, be just as smart and capable as anyone on your team, but cannot get a job at your company. Why? Because I didn't pony up $40k for a piece of paper like everyone else?
I have no college degree at all in any major and I have consecutively held 3 senior level development positions in the last 15 years and have even been on the hiring end a few times. Admittedly, I have taken some courses at a local community college just to keep up with technology but mostly I've found that I learn better on my own. I've often been asked during interviews if I have ever had a hard time finding a job because I have no degree and the answer is a resounding "NO". While interviewing for my current job I had several interviews and 3 offers. If you look close at every job posting they usually say BS "or equivelent experience". I'm not telling anyone to quit school, the advantage I had was that I have been obsessed with computers and programming since I was a kid. By the time I was looking for my first job I had already written dozens of programs and had extensive experience building my own machines. My first position was as an entry-level in-house programmer, but I moved up through the ranks and gained experience along the way. Four years into the position, I held a senior level title; the same amount of time it takes to get a BS and I actually got paid to get experienced. As someone who actually looks at resumes, I, personally, don't look at the degrees; I look at experience, what skills the person has used that parallel our needs and more importantly, I google the crap out of the person's name and visit the links they put on their resume. I want to see if someone is programming for their own enjoyment. If someone really loves computers so much that they do it at home, the are bound to be good. So if you have done projects on your own, definitely put them on your resume. There's no harm in sending your resume without college credentials, the worst thing they'll do is throw it in the trash and move on, but you won't get any calls if you don't send them out at all. You gotta play to win ;)
-cor-
Ugh, thank you. I am so tired of people assuming that because I'm white, I've never had problems. My dad left my mother 3 weeks before my youngest brother was born (and he was premature at that). She had a newborn, 3yr old, and 6yr old at home. We were on and off welfare as she worked her ass off to support us, and we went without a lot of things for most of my childhood. (Think no power, cooking whatever was left in the fridge in a pot over a kerosine heater to keep from starving.)
All this ensured that I now do not care about shallow things, and I don't look much beyond necessities when spending, even if I can afford things. And I learned that you have to work very hard if you want to achieve anything. My mom did that, and she was able to get off welfare quickly, we slowly moved up from terrible apartments to an okay one, to a good one, etc... she now has her own house, nice car, etc. Personally I worked hard to learn what I know and get where I am--no family friends, no inheritance, nobody handed me anything.
Sorry for the rant, I just completely agree with you here, and I get so aggravated when people assume things about how I got where I am now.
10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
20 DRINK COFFEE
30 GOTO 10
...you do need a 4 year degree to get an interview. Why? Because of the glut of qualified IT folks looking for work. It's supply and demand.
Add to this the fact that IT seems to be the dumping ground for exiles of other professions who were good with a spreadsheet or MS Word and think "going into computers" is the easiest way to make good money quick. Maybe that was true in 1995, but times have changed. IT is no longer quick money no matter how many certification boot camps you sit through.
The IT job market is now filled with "paper tigers" who think their $3000 boot-camp certification qualifies them as an "Engineer" deserving of a $80k salary. This ain't your daddy's IT market anymore. Expect to work for just better than minimum wage IF you can get your foot through the door. And in 6 months expect to get replaced by a guy like Ramesh...after you've trained him of course.
Steer clear of IT or prepared to be another over-worked and underpaid or unemployed IT casualty.
I have a degree and 5+ years of Sys Admin experience and I was close to getting hired before I was rejected by the owner because my GPA was not up to snuff.
Turns out that the owner is a College Professor. So EVERYTHING depends on the bias of the hiring manager. I've been on interviews where I believe I was snubbed because I had a degree and the interviewer didn't.
If only we knew the personal biases of the people doing the hiring.
I started out 'professionally' in 2003 as a desktop support technician. I did that for four years slowly advancing at one location until my official title was computer support specialist. During that time, I did a lot of system admin stuff even though my title didn't reflect it. I also took the opportunity to volunteer all kinds of other work, such as developing internal web applications for the company I worked for and pushing new technologies on the boss and getting those implemented. Eventually, I had enough broad experience to move on. I then ended up as the internal systems engineer for an ISP before I moved on again a year later to a better job. The only education I have is about a year of community college where I picked up a certificate which is actually worthless paper since it's not a degree. I do have my CCNA but I don't know how much pull that thing has, if any. So, the bottom line: start at the bottom. Put in as much extras as your boss and/or company will allow which will develop your skills and fatten your resume, then move on to better things, all without a degree. If I can do it, I'm guessing many others can as well. For the first time in my life, my current job (and highest paying) contacted me via an online job posting board instead of me having to contact them. A broad range of skills and experience helped make that happen and not a degree.
You can get a job as a Sys Admin without a degree of any sorts. I did it. Now I had to take the crap jobs for about 9 years not making jack squat for a salary. But then I got into that one place after I got my "or equal experience" time and here I am... A Sys Admin... Yes it is possible but you have to do the crap jobs first to get up to the good job.
I am a full-time network administrator, without any IT degrees. I am just finishing my associates degree, and have taken some training from SANS.org, but had little IT experience when I was hired. The jobs are out there, but hard to find.
"Trust that little voice in your head that says 'Wouldn't it be interesting if...' and then do it." - Duane Michals
I can't stand paper tigers. You spend $3,000 on a fucking bootcamp or $200 on some CISCO books for what? A switch is a switch is a fucking switch. I don't need to be able to regurgitate IOS syntax in order to be a competent network engineer. Once I learn general concepts like OSPF, RIP, VLANS, trunks and subnetting, I can fucking Google the syntax. They all work the same! They have to in order to be interoperable.
By running out and getting vendor certifications, all you are doing is making yourself a fucking marketing drone for Microsoft and Cisco. Now HR departments are picking up on this shit and they don't know a Cisco switch from a Nortel or HP. The next time I hear a hiring manager say, "We're a Cisco shop!" I'll punch him in the fucking mouth.
Seriously, when you go to a auto repair shop to get your brakes changed, how often do you hear: "Sorry but we're a Toyota shop!"
A fucking car is a car and any mechanic worth his salt can repair any run-of-the-mill vehicle as long as he has access to the right parts.
Well I've been given the title by managers and CEOs of the companies I have worked for. I have survived for at least 25 years with the working title of "Engineer". I have a patent so at least I can claim inventor as well. So Mr. Asshat you may shut the *$%@ up.
But I admit in Canada I cannot claim to be an "Engineer". I do not have the Iron Ring nor the education required to have that title.
Why bother
The people without degrees who got into the industry during the boom and feel threatened by people with degrees say: "You don't need a degree! They are a waste of time and money! I've worked with people with degrees and they were absolute idiots!" The people with degrees who are working on their MBA and currently in management say: "Degrees prove that you are dedicated and have soft skills unlike the unwashed masses of rack monkeys in the Datacenter. If given a choice between a degreed and non-degreed individual, I will choose the degreed. BTW, my boss just told me that my lip-print has been permanently branded onto his ass. He showed me. There's absolutely no hair in that area. I was flattered!" Then there are realists like me who have a 4 year degree in C.S. 5+ years real-world experience and a couple of certs and a job working as a Sys Admin says: It all depends on where you live and where you apply. Some companies and hiring managers resent any type of degrees (because usually they don't have one themselves), then there are the HR filters from the Fortune XXX companies that use keyword filters to reject certain resumes. Then there are the anal companies that require you to have a certain GPA in order to even be considered. It's your job to figure out which company is which and apply accordingly. This ain't the 90's and the days where people who "like computers" get hired into IT positions with insane salaries are long fucking gone. The truth is that the market is glutted with experienced IT talent fighting over meager salaries. IT job seekers these days need every competitive advantage they can get. That includes a degree, certifications and real-world experience. If you have neither or one out of three, you're fucked. That's the cold hard truth.
I was a highschool dropout, studied anything and everything about computers for a few years, then after I was done studying and playing games for a living, I completed highschool (got a diploma) and then I got in as a network administrator. You just have to get someone from the inside to get places in the IT world (or any industry).
Later on I got on the board of directors for another company (larger and better salary) because of my skills and innovative ideas. So yes it's possible, but you have to be able to prove what you can do, and you need help from the inside. Another good tip is make as many connections as you can, wherever you go, and a degree just means that you can complete what you started. There's nothing much more than that. Take my experience as a grain of salt, it can't work for everyone, and for those crazy enough to try, make sure that you have a backup plan because nothing is for certain.
Certs, and on-the-job experience is what you will need. But don't think its going to be easy. You MUST get certified. Get Net+, A+ and as many Microsoft certs as you can stand. There are some schools around that will offer training and the certs. (I went to TechSkills) There are job placement programs, of course, and temp/contract to hire companies like Robert Half Tech., and Sapphire Tech. They do not tend to offer "Good" IT jobs, but will get you experience, which more and more is...well...more important to a company then your education. They would be stupid to hire a student right out of college, than someone with 3 to 5 years on-the-job experience under their belt. I'm a college drop out who did terrrrrible in high school. After working for 'Tha Shack' for 4 years and getting laid off, I decided to break into IT. I signed on to a Vocational College and 3 Years and a few dreadfully awful IT jobs later, here I am working IT for a fairly small, privately owned, wealthy, international company. It's exactly the job I had been looking for for so long. Good pay, benefits, fun, educational, not a call center IT job. A wise, older friend of mine once told me. "The best jobs are never advertised" and to "Develop a network of people" Get certified, work some crummy IT call centers and what-not and you will eventually find a hidden gem.
A lot of visas require degrees/diplomas + experience. ie TN/H1. I'm a Canadian working in the US on an TN, for which a university degree is a requirement.
If you want to keep your options open, I would seriously recommend pursuing a degree. A CS degree, despite what some have said, isn't just a lot of hoop jumping. You will learn many fundamentals of computers from hardware to databases to software engineering. Actually, the hoops are there no matter what path you take, degree or self taught. In the course of a 4 year degree you will definitely take a lot stuff that seems meaningless but some of it will be interesting even if it is not in your field. Will you have to kiss the occasional prof's butt? Sure. But this is reality and even more so in the corporate world. Almost every colleague I knew that got a promotion got it because his/her manager loved them - definitely not on technical merit alone. Want to take the self taught path? Better be prepared to work your ass off. From the posts here most of the guys who made it this way worked at least the first few years in crap jobs. Can you really see yourself working in a call center?
But to each their own. If you're an entrepreneurial type with *a lot* of motivation I'm sure you'll be successful eventually either way.
Best of luck.
Bad advice. We don't need more paper tigers littering the streets with their hopes dashed. A certification without real-world experience is useless and limits you to one vendor's technology. The most valuable certs are vendor neutral, requires re-certification and X amount of years of actual industry experience in the discipline. Both the CISSP and PMP require such. MS and Cisco certs just turn you into a marketing bitch for the rest of your career and if someone threw a Linux box or Procurve switch in front of you, your eyes would cross and glaze over.
Without reading each comment I'll share one more aspect and that's the starting salary. I'm a VP/IT for a $B company and because I don't have a degree I see it as less a requirement as the skillset. The resume is key to show the various skills you have acquired. Then if you ace the interview you may be in the door. Now comes the salary issue. Since you're not in IT you may make something less than I would pay for a sysadmin. I pay around $50sK for a Windows and $60s for Linux guys. More or less depending on my exact setup or vertical apps. Now if you're new to IT without a degree and making less say $30K then I'm not going to bump you $20K, it just doesn't happen in corporate america. Now your in the door making $35K but will take years to build to par with accredited coworkers. All this means is get the first job and jump about every 18 months to another company for a $8-10K bump at each cycle. After that you'll get the salary you deserve. The final kicker is that you'll have a harder time rising farther up the chain without the degree. Good Luck
I do enterprise server support for a large computer corporation. I completed 3 years of HS, got my GED and completed 1 year of college. I make 40k+.I didn't get a certification until I had been working here over 1 year. Depending on who you work for certifications make a bigger difference than college.. Just depends on how high you want to go.
It is hard to get any job right now without a degree. There have been so many layoffs that many people with degrees and experience are willing to take pay cuts. So people with degrees and experience to the front of the line, then people with experience, then people with degrees, then people with no degrees and no experience. If you can't afford to go to school try doing some certification programs, they are better then nothing.
"It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.... I would not consider hiring someone without a college degree."
..... oh, wait....
What if they went to college but didn't finish?
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Why the fuck do you blindly base what you'll pay based on someone's prior history? Some companies simply cannot pay as much as others--especially smaller ones and non-profits. Based on your logic, grads fresh out of college should make no more than $10k since they were making $0 before. Do you see how screwed up that is? It makes NO SENSE to use previous salary as a litmus test for what you're willing to pay. I'd lie to you about my salary and tell HR at my current job to only disclose my start date and my job title--most do that anyways.
I think you'd be right about that. It's the Ivy leagues which favor legacies, and I think it's also the Ivy Leagues which have a history of discrimination.
It's true the Ivy Leagues aren't the only game. But they are part of the game, and thus they contribute to the statistics. As long as one school prefers legacies, and as long as that school's legacy includes bigotry, then college degrees will be fairly considered the fruit of a poisoned tree. Why shouldn't we demand a zero tolerance policy for discrimination?
Have not worked for one of those you listed, but I am a Sr. software architect for one of the 3 credit reporting bureaus.
Thanks,
Leabre
I highly recommend the book "What color is your parachute" which teaches you how to land the job you want regardless of education or experience. That said, I have seen many of the facets of this question. I have seen folks get technical training (but NOT a degree) in the US Air Force or other military branches. When they get out of the military, the training, experience (and, often, their security clearance) combine for a non-degreed entry into the civilian workforce.
As a former computer science professor, I helped people earn college degrees, or just technical training certificates. Both will help you land a job.
As a Boeing employee, I KNOW there are IT jobs we have that do not require college degrees. They do not pay as well as our jobs that do require college degrees. Boeing encourages employees at all levels to continue their education; pay raises and promotions often go to those who do so. Now, the hiring manager may decide that even though the job itself does not require a degree, he wants to hire the most qualified individual. All things being equal, the person with the CS or IT degree will win the job before the non-degreed person. (But all things are rarely equal. The "team player" type person with four years military experience may well beat out the college grad that was terrified during the interview.)
Do what you can do until you can figure out how to do what you can't do.
Sure, that might overlook one or two amazing autodidacts, but I think it's a reasonably safe strategy to help filter the candidates down. Now, if you have 5+ years experience, well, maybe... But why should we take the risk? And since you're competing in a bigger pool (of uneducated workers), you'll get a lower wage. C'est la vie.
If you want a position for sysadmin in the Microsoft world, you're going to have to spend a few thousand getting certifications. You'll need those whether you have a degree or not.
If you're going for a position with Linux or Unix, check out a local LUG (Linux Users Group) for some great resources and job leads.
Don't stop there though. ... You never know when opportunities pop up and where, so keep your eyes open.
This is close, I think, if you want to work for a bigger shop.
As above posters have said, the HR Nazis read the spec and it says "degree in cs or related dis" and the door stays shut unless you know someone.
Get yourself enrolled in a college and go after that degree. You owe it to your future to expand your horizons.
But small and medium biz need help, and in this economy if they can get somebody junior to help BigBuxBob, there's a good chance you can get in the door, study your ass off - learn about EVERYTHING: mail, databases, LDAP, Active Directory, Web Application Servers, IIS & Apache, Linux, Unix, Windoz. Expect to take your lumps and pay your dues. Be ready when Bob has a vacation coming to fill his shoes!
A few tips:
- NETWORK - join users groups and meet people.
- Volunteer to help Non Profits with IT Stuff - heck, even helping cable a network is a good thing for your resume.
- Learn everything about networking and IP.
- Consume slashdot, sourceforge, and support sites.
- Keep a paper brain or a huge doc file that contains urls and commands you have used.
- Have a thumb-drive with a toolkit you can use to fix probs on unix, linux, windows. There are plenty out there - find and compile them for your self.
- Publish - have a blog people can find (which means having useful content, not just drivel).
- Never, ever, be without a current resume ready to email or hand out with 30 minutes notice!
Within a year or so, something will pop.
One final thought: Ask colleagues with degrees what their degree is in. Then ask if they are working in the field of their major. Approx 2/3 in tech will say no. Ask the rest how many hours (not credit hours - actual hours of class and study only) in their four years were in their Major. The answer is probably fewer than 1000. First two years and much of last two years is to make a well-rounded student who can (should be able to) read and write. The extremely competent may have LOTS more hours or be extremely bright, but the average joe... um, maybe not.
Do NOT be impressed by MS degrees from University of Boom Chalawalla or East Cha-ching. I've worked with a lot of guys with MS who can't write a script, couldn't troubleshoot a sick Apache.
Be confident. You will make it.
I am an IT Professional and I do not have a BS or any degree. I DO have my MCSE 2003 w/ exchange and my A+ certifications. Most job listings will ask for a degree but the will also say or with some number of years of experience. I have 10 years of job experience and since I got my MCSE I have not had a shortage of job offers. Nothing beats experience and almost all companies know that.
I didn't say that the State Schools didn't have a history of discrimination- just that the discrimination seemed more in keeping with the mission of the school.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
While there are times I wish I had one, my work speaks for itself. Don't get me wrong; life would have been easier and I probably could slack off more (my experience with degree'd IT people) and easily get away with it.
Not having a degree does mean you have to work harder and gain more experience. It helps to have people along your career that can vouch for you as well. I started my first 'corporate' job as a Tech Support rep. Worked there until I became a Senior Systems Engineer (6yr) and then moved onto my current job as an IT Manager by knowing the Owners of this company through my experience with the last. I've also gotten to know many in the healthcare and general technology industry.
Generally; as long as you work hard, know the right people and can easily prove your strengths you should be able to get a job just about anywhere. The more you bullshit the less likely you are to get a job. Most people in the industry that are worth a grain of salt can detect BS a mile away.
Government and big business HR departments will require the often useless piece of paper. Small organizations are much less paperwork bound. Trouble is how do you find those? I'm not at all sure.
I agree. I've done well so far in my career, and my degree (English, not CS) has had little to do with it. I started as a computer operator working through school, and moved into systems administration, then later management.
When I moved into management at my current employer, I rewrote the requirements for the positions under me so that "equivalent experience" was allowed as a substitute for the degree. The degree does indeed show me that you can stick with something, sometimes under absurd circumstances or in ridiculous environments. It doesn't tell me that you know anything about systems administration. In fact, most of the people I work with who have CS degrees know little or nothing about what I do.
Equivalent experience shows me the same ability to stick it out; but with the added benefit of some expected level of skill in this particular arena.
So, my advice is to go ahead and apply, even for those positions that ask for a degree. Some of them may have more flexibility than they let on, and if you have the skills, you'll have an advantage over your job competitors.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
No, but if you fail a degree course, you can't learn.
The question wasn't if I deserve it, but whether it was possible likely that someone in my position could be in my position. If you see what I mean. BTW - as it happens, being dyslexic is often a benefit in my particular line of work.
Because you can - or because you should?
Another option is to find a startup that's hurting for employees.
I'm still going to school, and I managed to land a job doing web design for a company that's doing pretty good business.
I guess it'd be a good idea to notice that the main reason I got the job because of who I knew though. I only heard about the job because a friend of mine informed me: they weren't advertising as needing people.
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
Nearly 30 years ago, not too long after Viet Nam (when it was not as socially acceptable to do so), I enlisted in the Air Force (as a mainframe operator) straight out of high school, for four main reasons, (not necessarily in this order of importance):
Four years was enough, I never planned to make the military a career, but these days I'm still in the field I knew I'd be in as a kid. Some onsite work (routers, telco installs, break-fix, etc.), some sysadmin for small businesses, some coding, some webwork & hosting. Don't like cubicles, so no desk job per se, but happy with the meld of vocation and avocation.
I've also maintained an attitude throughout the years of rather knowing how to actually do things than collect pieces of paper. So, I may not have a 100K+ desk job, or a wall full of certs, but I'm busy, and happy.
Good luck!
If you saw the money I am making, with the only expenses being a storage unit. You'd ask where do I sign up.
I am going to night school at California bapstist university. You can work hours during the day and school at night and in weekends.
You have to prove to HR and yourself you can handle real work and a degree proves it. MCSE or without you are nothing without it in states such as California.
Like a job you may have to work 60 hours a week to get promoted and the same is true with working and going to school as businesses want people to not be lazy and take the weekend off (sarcasm on taking a weekend off).
http://saveie6.com/
THis is true. Its infuriating to many who spend 100k and years of their time for a degree but its true. A degree means you are smart and can learn. Thats it.
Its a great way in the US to start out with a degree with a low salary for 2 years until you can prove yourself and can then start making bigger bucks later on.
For the Dutch GP I will say what was true 10 years ago is no longer true today. If you were born 10 years later you could not just simply take a jr level software engineer position without a degree. Today employers will just throw out your application and resume in the trash.
http://saveie6.com/
Linus studied at the University of Helsinki between 1988 to 1996 before graduating.
He might not have needed to go to University but it sounds like he thinks the experience helped him...
If you want to get a job without a degree - thats cool - no problem.
Here is a great tip - when you put your application in...actually ring the agency up and introduce yourself and have an open and honest chat about the position you applied for. Very few people actually do this.
Once you have a job - work hard and take an interest in the company and by respectful of other people. Be aware of your experience and take full responsibility of tasks assigned to you. Follow up with people and ask for feedback on your performance. After quite a few years of working like this you will find yourself moving up the ladder.
Good luck!