Re:I tend to agree with the arcticle...
on
Salon on the XBox
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· Score: 1
Or hell, even on the PC... remember Lemmings?
Lemmings was best played on Amiga and originally developed for that platform, I think. =)
The music of the PC version was horrible (with latest SB) and the graphics looked worse, even though it should have been better (256 colours vs Amiga's 64). The game "flow" was also better on Amiga.
A nice thing about the xBox, along with all other consoles is obviously the standard HW. It will make it easier to develop new games, as the developer probably has had the time to "get to know it".
Many ppl, at the same, time see this as a disadvantage. "This HW & SW will be junk compared to what will be out on the market just a couple of months later".
Well, I disagree.
Since you know the exact specs of the hardware and software it will use, you can optimize your games a lot for this specific platform, and get (almost) the same performance as you will get on your much newer PC. PC games are not nearly as optimized, since they are required to run on a lot of different configurations.
Just look at the PSX. It's old, I don't know exactly when it was released (1995?), but some of the games were at least two years ago comparable to the ones on PC.
This was implied in the article, but I think a lot of ppl seem to have missed it???
Well, the only Linuxes I have actually used is Redhat and SUSE, and I must admit that Redhat works for me. I like the simplicity. But I am at the same point very aware of many people not liking it because of clumsiness, etc.
Wait.. I'm talking back nicely to an AC-flame... Karma whoring again.
Well, as a Linux user I think it is a good oppertunity to get some game development going.
Although many Linux users don't play that much games (not interrested?), it could be a mayor problem when trying to convince casual computer users to convert to Linux. I have friends that would never use Linux, just because it can't run Starcraft.
On the other hand (as an old amiga user), I think this is good for Amiga, because Redhat is a respected (as in business) company. Respect and trust is something this company needs badly.
Well, Redhat is maybe not that much respected among Linux geeks though...;-)
Anyway who'd be interested in downloading from a source that can channel only a few kilobytes a minute.
Sometimes you have to dowload from a slow source. Me, for example, with my kindda "odd" taste in music, often have only one or two separate sources of downloading from. And according to the Law about everythings suckishness, they are always on a crappy 56kbps connetion somewhere far off in the world.;-)
Maybe I should just change my music taste. Start listening to Britney Spears and stuff like that.
NOOOO.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
But when quality matters [Even more offtopic]
on
Computer Historian?
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· Score: 1
That's why we'll get DVD-audio. Hopefully that will improve all audiophiles situation a bit.
I have only seen MST3K - The movie, so I can't really have an opinion regarding the series. The movie was pretty funny sometimes though.
But there are cool american comedy shows out there. David Lynch & Mark Frost's (Yeah, the Twin peaks guys!) - "On the air", for example. Too bad most ppl never understood (or liked?) the humor.
Isn't what you just said a pretty good description of UN, only more powerful?
And to make your point, UN doesn't work very well at all times and is sometimes just considered a tool for NATO countries (US?) to play with (Iraq, Somalia, Yugoslavia).
They took cartridges and had keyboards, BASIC, et.al., so they were hybrids, effectively, and the Amiga
followed a similar system design. Not that the Amiga was a console at all, but you can see that it would
have come out as one in happier times for the console market:)
Ok, I get your point, the whole problem here is to determine what is a console, what's a hybrid and what's a computer. I think it's safe to say Amiga is in computerland, but I also see why some (morons) would call it a hybrid (I am aware that you don't agree).;-)
If you'd been 16 or something I could have played the "I was there" card:)
LOL... That's the best argument of all. "Shutup... I'm older than you, goddamnit!":)
I'm basing my knowledge on 12 years of using the platform, not just one small article years after the platform has stopped being developed.
I only used it for 8 years, so I must be misinformed then, right?
Ummm... the 400 & 800 were 8-bit home computers with some nifty gfx chips, for the time. How old are
you, anyway?
Well, you made them sound like they were consoles, why else would someone think Amiga is a hybrid because of Miners work on Atari400&800? And no, I've never used either of them. Only C64, Amiga and PC (Linux win BeOS)for me. So, as far as I knew, they might have been consoles. And neither of them were big hits in Sweden, I think.
I'm 25, why?
Hey, I didn't say I agreed with them:)
Hmmmmm... Well, actually you didn't... Hmmm... Ok.:)
BTW, is your.sig a PWEI quote? Been trying to track that one down in my memory....
Don't mind what others say, think by yourself, is a nice saying.
According to this article, the story was this: As the machine developed, there was increasing conflict between the financial backers and the developers. The Amiga team wanted to create a computer but the management simply wanted a game console. Amiga were under obligation to create a console, leading to the addition of a cartridge port in the Lorraine prototype. Alongside this a number of 'features' were added, including a keyboard interface and room for expanded memory.
That tells me that amiga was designed to be a computer. I know others won't always find it necessary finding all the facts, but...
I think Jay Miner, one of the original hardware developers, had previously worked on the Atari 400 & 800...
So??? If you developed some consoles, you can't ever develop anything else ever? C'mon...
My belief is that you in a case like this, look at the product, think for a while and then make your own judgement. The only reason I can see naming the amiga a hybrid, would be that it's possible connecting it to an ordinary TV? But that was the fact with most home-computers these days.
so you can see why this design is sometimes also considered a computer/console hybrid.
No, but I can see why this design is sometimes misconsidered a computer/console hybrid, by people that doesn't know better.:-)
Yes, and there was the Amiga CDTV too. But they were practically stripped down versions of the full computer. The CDTV was an Amiga500 with a CD-rom, without the keyboard and mouse (optional). The CD32 was an Amiga1200 with CDROM + special video chip, without a keybord.
I bet you could make a console out of an IBM compatible PC too (Sounds like the xBox, doesn't it?), but that wouldn't make your standard PC less PC, right?
Some games are better off in 2d, for exemple Lemmings, Populous, etc. I never really liked the 3D versions of these games. I'm not even sure of Blizzards move, releasing Warcraft2 in 3D.
But if we are still talking 3D shooters, it would be a pretty bad move to go back to sprites & bitmaps.
"And there's also the possibility of hybrid PC/console machines (like the Amiga was).
Please explain to me in which way amiga was a hybrid PC/console machine. I always thought of it as a PC, only better (at the time). The fact that the games on the amiga kicked most console games ass doesn't make it a console.
Really what ever happened to having graphics good enough that when you look at your hand in the game it looks like your hand in real life...
Huh???
Are you talking about going back to sprites and bitmap graphics instead of real 3D graphics? I hope not.
The reason the game devlopers started using real 3D is that the bitmaps and sprites are static. If you want an object or a player to perform a new action you have to render a completeley new bitmap for each movement, distance and angle, while in 3D you just apply some transformations to the model (Very roughly spoken).
This is much easier to handle ingame and looks better, at the cost of details. The 2% advances you are talking about are the slow, but steady advances in making real 3D graphics as detailed as your mentioned photo realistic hand.
I always thought the real difference between console games and PC games is the social part. Often you fire up the consol to play with your friends (I recently spent 6 VERY fun hours playing WWF Smackdown with a friend...).
Then on the other hand most PC games are made for playing alone or over LAN. While the LAN gaming can be a social experience (LAN parties, etc.), you are mostly playing by yourself.
With a console, you and a couple of friends could have a bud... Playing the game...;-)
Well, even I, half a world away, here in europe, have gotten the impression that Bush Jr is an extremely slimy little nasty frog. Very pro capital punishment and other non civilized stuff. BTW, capital punisment is a crime against the Universal declaration of human rights, in case you didn't know. (3rd paragraph).
On the other hand, all europeans are commies, aren't we?;-)
Hmmm... Yeah, that would be interresting, but he is not what he used to be. Too soft these days.
Maybe they should hire Stephen Donaldson as a plot writer, but then the main character would probably be a psychotic rapist or something. Might not be good for sales.
Well, read Donaldson's Covenant or Gap series anyway.;-)
Slashdot Mirror
Or hell, even on the PC... remember Lemmings?
;-)
Lemmings was best played on Amiga and originally developed for that platform, I think. =)
The music of the PC version was horrible (with latest SB) and the graphics looked worse, even though it should have been better (256 colours vs Amiga's 64). The game "flow" was also better on Amiga.
Offtopic, yes, but I couldn't resist.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
A nice thing about the xBox, along with all other consoles is obviously the standard HW. It will make it easier to develop new games, as the developer probably has had the time to "get to know it".
Many ppl, at the same, time see this as a disadvantage. "This HW & SW will be junk compared to what will be out on the market just a couple of months later".
Well, I disagree.
Since you know the exact specs of the hardware and software it will use, you can optimize your games a lot for this specific platform, and get (almost) the same performance as you will get on your much newer PC. PC games are not nearly as optimized, since they are required to run on a lot of different configurations.
Just look at the PSX. It's old, I don't know exactly when it was released (1995?), but some of the games were at least two years ago comparable to the ones on PC.
This was implied in the article, but I think a lot of ppl seem to have missed it???
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Well, the only Linuxes I have actually used is Redhat and SUSE, and I must admit that Redhat works for me. I like the simplicity. But I am at the same point very aware of many people not liking it because of clumsiness, etc.
Wait.. I'm talking back nicely to an AC-flame... Karma whoring again.
I'll just quit now, I think.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Well, as a Linux user I think it is a good oppertunity to get some game development going.
;-)
Although many Linux users don't play that much games (not interrested?), it could be a mayor problem when trying to convince casual computer users to convert to Linux. I have friends that would never use Linux, just because it can't run Starcraft.
On the other hand (as an old amiga user), I think this is good for Amiga, because Redhat is a respected (as in business) company. Respect and trust is something this company needs badly.
Well, Redhat is maybe not that much respected among Linux geeks though...
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Anyway who'd be interested in downloading from a source that can channel only a few kilobytes a minute.
;-)
Sometimes you have to dowload from a slow source. Me, for example, with my kindda "odd" taste in music, often have only one or two separate sources of downloading from. And according to the Law about everythings suckishness, they are always on a crappy 56kbps connetion somewhere far off in the world.
Maybe I should just change my music taste. Start listening to Britney Spears and stuff like that.
NOOOO.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
That's why we'll get DVD-audio. Hopefully that will improve all audiophiles situation a bit.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
On the air
Me thinks "target" didn't work out very well.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
I have only seen MST3K - The movie, so I can't really have an opinion regarding the series. The movie was pretty funny sometimes though.
But there are cool american comedy shows out there. David Lynch & Mark Frost's (Yeah, the Twin peaks guys!) - "On the air", for example. Too bad most ppl never understood (or liked?) the humor.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Seems like someone has been watching a little too much "Survivor" lately... :-)
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Isn't what you just said a pretty good description of UN, only more powerful?
And to make your point, UN doesn't work very well at all times and is sometimes just considered a tool for NATO countries (US?) to play with (Iraq, Somalia, Yugoslavia).
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
How could you make this list and exclude Beavis and Butthead?
:-)
Considered by many as just childish or immature, I think it's the most funny, ironic, sarcastic view of modern America that exists.
Who can forget lines such as "Hello cu-uh-stomer my name is... your name" and the equals.
MTV wouldn't let Beavis say "Fire". (But the guy was fired, yeah! FIRED! FIRED!)
The beard episode *Damn we're smooth*.
Or is just me beeing immature?
Oh yeah, we also have "King of the Hill", it's... ok, I guess.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
They took cartridges and had keyboards, BASIC, et.al., so they were hybrids, effectively, and the Amiga followed a similar system design. Not that the Amiga was a console at all, but you can see that it would have come out as one in happier times for the console market :)
;-)
:)
... That's the best argument of all. "Shutup... I'm older than you, goddamnit!" :)
Ok, I get your point, the whole problem here is to determine what is a console, what's a hybrid and what's a computer. I think it's safe to say Amiga is in computerland, but I also see why some (morons) would call it a hybrid (I am aware that you don't agree).
If you'd been 16 or something I could have played the "I was there" card
LOL
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Ooh, very catty.
:)
:)
:)
.sig a PWEI quote? Been trying to track that one down in my memory....
Sure is, isn't it?
I'm basing my knowledge on 12 years of using the platform, not just one small article years after the platform has stopped being developed.
I only used it for 8 years, so I must be misinformed then, right?
Ummm... the 400 & 800 were 8-bit home computers with some nifty gfx chips, for the time. How old are you, anyway?
Well, you made them sound like they were consoles, why else would someone think Amiga is a hybrid because of Miners work on Atari400&800? And no, I've never used either of them. Only C64, Amiga and PC (Linux win BeOS)for me. So, as far as I knew, they might have been consoles. And neither of them were big hits in Sweden, I think.
I'm 25, why?
Hey, I didn't say I agreed with them
Hmmmmm... Well, actually you didn't... Hmmm... Ok.
BTW, is your
Yup, "This is the day...", "Inject me."
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Don't mind what others say, think by yourself, is a nice saying.
:-)
According to this article, the story was this:
As the machine developed, there was increasing conflict between the financial backers and the developers. The Amiga team wanted to create a computer but the management simply wanted a game console. Amiga were under obligation to create a console, leading to the addition of a cartridge port in the Lorraine prototype. Alongside this a number of 'features' were added, including a keyboard interface and room for expanded memory.
That tells me that amiga was designed to be a computer. I know others won't always find it necessary finding all the facts, but...
I think Jay Miner, one of the original hardware developers, had previously worked on the Atari 400 & 800...
So??? If you developed some consoles, you can't ever develop anything else ever? C'mon...
My belief is that you in a case like this, look at the product, think for a while and then make your own judgement. The only reason I can see naming the amiga a hybrid, would be that it's possible connecting it to an ordinary TV? But that was the fact with most home-computers these days.
so you can see why this design is sometimes also considered a computer/console hybrid.
No, but I can see why this design is sometimes misconsidered a computer/console hybrid, by people that doesn't know better.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Yes, and there was the Amiga CDTV too. But they were practically stripped down versions of the full computer. The CDTV was an Amiga500 with a CD-rom, without the keyboard and mouse (optional). The CD32 was an Amiga1200 with CDROM + special video chip, without a keybord.
I bet you could make a console out of an IBM compatible PC too (Sounds like the xBox, doesn't it?), but that wouldn't make your standard PC less PC, right?
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Some games are better off in 2d, for exemple Lemmings, Populous, etc. I never really liked the 3D versions of these games. I'm not even sure of Blizzards move, releasing Warcraft2 in 3D.
But if we are still talking 3D shooters, it would be a pretty bad move to go back to sprites & bitmaps.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
"And there's also the possibility of hybrid PC/console machines (like the Amiga was).
Please explain to me in which way amiga was a hybrid PC/console machine. I always thought of it as a PC, only better (at the time). The fact that the games on the amiga kicked most console games ass doesn't make it a console.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Really what ever happened to having graphics good enough that when you look at your hand in the game it looks like your hand in real life...
;-)
Huh???
Are you talking about going back to sprites and bitmap graphics instead of real 3D graphics? I hope not.
The reason the game devlopers started using real 3D is that the bitmaps and sprites are static. If you want an object or a player to perform a new action you have to render a completeley new bitmap for each movement, distance and angle, while in 3D you just apply some transformations to the model (Very roughly spoken).
This is much easier to handle ingame and looks better, at the cost of details. The 2% advances you are talking about are the slow, but steady advances in making real 3D graphics as detailed as your mentioned photo realistic hand.
WowTIP, stating the obvious...
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
I always thought the real difference between console games and PC games is the social part. Often you fire up the consol to play with your friends (I recently spent 6 VERY fun hours playing WWF Smackdown with a friend...).
;-)
Then on the other hand most PC games are made for playing alone or over LAN. While the LAN gaming can be a social experience (LAN parties, etc.), you are mostly playing by yourself.
With a console, you and a couple of friends could have a bud... Playing the game...
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
That we probably pretty soon will be able to read Alec Guiness jokes at Dead Celebrities Jokes Graveyard.
[Disclaimer] Not for the easily offended. [/Disclaimer]
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Well, even I, half a world away, here in europe, have gotten the impression that Bush Jr is an extremely slimy little nasty frog. Very pro capital punishment and other non civilized stuff. BTW, capital punisment is a crime against the Universal declaration of human rights, in case you didn't know. (3rd paragraph).
;-)
On the other hand, all europeans are commies, aren't we?
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Well uh... I dunno... Doesn't seem right to me...
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
We now have a socialist government here in sweden.
;-)
Our unemployment is on it's way down below 4% (No double digits here).
The government takes one third of my income in taxes. (Yup, too much, but no three quaters).
And I didn't even vote for those suckers...
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Maybe it's simply because they want ppl spending their time and money on the new games, so they can cash in some extra bucks?
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
Hmmm... Yeah, that would be interresting, but he is not what he used to be. Too soft these days.
;-)
Maybe they should hire Stephen Donaldson as a plot writer, but then the main character would probably be a psychotic rapist or something. Might not be good for sales.
Well, read Donaldson's Covenant or Gap series anyway.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone