The real kicker here, would be a domestic attack in the wake of all this. If the NSA, CIA, and FBI can't stop an event with the amount of information they seem to be gathering, no more amount of access would allow them to stop it.
Boston just had a domestic attack. The warnings were completely ignored/missed because of usual stupidity and shortsightedness.
A mere technicality. Pass a law saying certain donkeys are citizens, then bam, there you are.
The harder part is ensuring their age is above the Constitutional minimums. Not that they can't live that long, just who keeps records of donkey births?
That guy should have ran at the engineers who were 'desperately' trying to find the problem. If he was holding a couple of them in place, maybe they would have tried harder.
Why can't the woman shutup for 10 seconds so I can concentrate on the effect she keeps prattling on about? It makes it difficult to study when her voice is over top of the illusion half the time.
Scenario: A female college student goes to a party, has consensual sex with a guy, gets pregnant from it, and wants to abort the fetus.
If I oppose the last part, how am I wanting the woman to suffer? What is the suffering of living with the consequences of her actions? Why isn't the better solution not willingly engaging in activities that cause her suffering?
Without straying from this particular scenario, what is your best response?
What's more, even if it did mean a civilian organized military, why then hell aren't people screaming about such militia organizations being outlawed and put on terrorist lists?
Because they just don't want people to have guns. It isn't about whether a group is actually "well regulated" within their own ranks, it is only about the fact that someone owns a gun, and they don't like that.
I think it's funny that they would fight to (mostly) preserve the other rights the Constitution guarantees us, but want that one to vanish.
I'm saying all of these are middle class. But the statement I refuted to start with was that all 400 people on that list are from upper-middle class or established wealthy families with important connections. I could see the argument if even 90% fit that mold, but they don't. (I thought about noting on the list whether I considered each one to be upper-, central-, or lower-middle class. That would be too subjective.)
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue just to argue, and I know you aren't either. Please join me and tragedy at the bar for a couple rounds.
Hey, good commenting. Even your previous post, really. And yes, it is difficult to get definite statements of many of their family situations. I googled around for many of them to help fill in more detail. For the ones that are listed "unknown", I just assume they were working class, so low-middle to middle class. One or two of them I felt like putting in my "Poor Background" list, but didn't think that was appropriate without proof.
As for whether "Russian Jewish immigrant" is a mark of poverty or not, I worked under the assumption that if the grandfather or great-grandfather had been a banker, jeweler, or court advisor, that would have been mentioned. So the ones that have little to no information on immigrant parents or grandparents, I consider they came in like the millions of others, poor. But I could be wrong, so thank you for stressing that.
Everything else you wrote is excellent, even though we don't agree on various things. As for the points we are arguing, yes we are looking at this from two different angles. Time to shake hands and go out to the bar for drinks. I'll buy the first round.
. Finally, the thought of you shouting at the monitor "She had a knitting shop you bastard!" is funny.:^)
Honestly, you're wrong. And way too worked up about it.
Oh yes, we are all just supposed to follow all the little rules, without questioning authority. Complete obedience, no independent thought. How cheery.
As an added bonus, just your description of it made you sound like an insufferable douche.
I'm not insufferable at all, and wasn't back then. I actually would usually help the other kids in class who didn't understand whatever math concepts were the lesson of the day. I didn't lord it over them that I understood it better than them. I used that fact to help them understand it better, so they got better grades. Even the dense ones.
Here's a hint: It's not acceptable to be correct and a jerk.Being correct does not offset the jerkiness.
But I wasn't a jerk in class. I simply didn't follow one specific rule, and never made a fuss about it at the time. You may think I'm being a jerk now, but I'm not being graded now, and your opinion is your own.
Plus, you think way too highly of yourself. Get some humility.
I accepted a lower grade from a teacher specifically targeting me, without making a big deal out of it when it mattered. That negates your statements.
I guess there's the possibility that you're just trolling here. "Too bad life isn't more like the movies.". Seriously?
Have you seen the type movies I'm talking about? That's the whole setup of many of them. The one thing keeping some burnt out teacher going is hope that she'll find that one bright flame of understanding. My teacher found that flame and threw a bucket of water on it.
I get that you don't like me from what I've written here. Please don't feel offended when I say that doesn't matter. I wrote my story to illustrate why some students don't have a favorable view of school and teachers. If you think I got too personal there, I can only say I barely scratched the surface.
But if I copied someone else's work, I would have copied the 'show work' part as well. So it wouldn't be proof that I didn't cheat. She knew I could do the work in my head. I did on the pop quizzes, and had the same level of accuracy. That was better than 99% overall, with simple errors being the problem, not my understanding of the math.
And, no, it isn't hard to comprehend that there are thousands of little rules we have to live by, or face punishment. I faced the punishment for choosing to ignore that one in particular. I never contested the 'fairness' of the homework quizzes, I accepted that it brought my 99.8% grade down to a 99.7% for the class.
What's funny is if that scenario was a Hollywood movie, my teacher would have gone home, looked at her husband, and said, "Damn, most of those kids are dense, couldn't figure their way out of an isosceles triangle shaped room if you told them there was a hidden doorway at the apex. But this one kid, I tell you. He's sorta strange and quiet, but he can do this shit in his head. I put a problem on the board, he reads it, closes his eyes, and says the answer. The other kids are still trying to figure out what buttons to press on their calculator, and he has the answer. I wish all my students were that way." Too bad life isn't more like the movies.
As for code, I'm not a programmer. But for the minor programming/scripting I have done over the years, I comment it as needed.
3 Larry Ellison, born to an unwed mother, adopted by family members
Adopted by family members yes. Wealthy ones.
Read his wikipedia page: "He grew up in a two-bedroom apartment in Chicago's South Shore middle-class Jewish neighborhood." Is that a sign of a wealthy family?
His adoptive father was "was a pompous government employee who had made a small fortune in Chicago real estate, only to lose it during the Great Depression." So, no, not wealthy.
10 Michael Bloomberg, gather was a real estate agent, grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants (not a group known for being wealthy)
His parents were middle class at least during his formative years, certainly not poor. It's a little unclear what his father did, some sources say bookkeeper and some say real estate. Varied business interests? In any case
I didn't say his parents were not middle class. I actually said that list is all middle class, simply not upper-middle class with powerful connections. He had Russian Jewish immigrant grandparents on both sides of his family. Are you agreeing this isn't an upper-class background, which was the argument I refuted in the first place?
11 Jeff Bezos, while his mother came from a ranching family, his adoptive father was a Cuban immigrant
So, his mother's family were rich and she married someone who might not have been rich. I'm not sure how that makes him not from a wealthy background.
Jeff Bezos is the only one I listed that you have a chance of claiming comes from a rich background with good connections. Yes, his mother's family owns a ranch, but I don't find anything on how much money they made, and it is really easy for farmers and ranchers to lose everything. His mother's father was a regional director of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, which probably helped open a few doors as well. As I say, this is the closest of the ones I listed to being upper-middle class with connections.
I listed Jeff specifically because I think it is great that a Cuban immigrant can come to America, alone at age 15, and marry a young ranch girl with a young son, and now be the father of the 11th wealthiest person in the US.
12 Sheldon Adelson, father drove a taxi cab
Mother ran a knitting shop. Not that it made them rich, just wondering why you only count the fathers.
Wow, you got me. A knitting shop.
I listed the father because I didn't feel like adding that his mother ran a knitting shop. Check out the list I posted in response to mvdwege, where I had that detail as I made the list, with all the others whose mother's occupation was listed. But for the short list, I went with the fact Sheldon's father drove a taxi cab to illustrate that the family was not upper-middle class with powerful connections.
13 Sergey Brin, born in the USSR, came to USA with parents at age 6
Father a math professor and mother a researcher for NASA. Once again, not rich, but definitely middle class.
What part of "born in the USSR" doesn't scream "not upper-middle class with powerful connections"?
Also, Once again, you are implying I said they are not middle class. Why?
15 George Soros, while his parents were not poor, they were Jews in Hungary when the Nazis invaded
Mother from a reasonably well to do family and lawyer father. Not necessarily rich, but far from poor. So middle class background and family connections.
Have you heard of the Nazis before? Have you heard of the Holocaust? Do you have any idea what happened to many "reasonably well to do" Jews during that time? Of course you do. I don't care for Soros' actions or what I have read of his outlook ( I have read one of his books, but it was disappointing
You'll have to ask turbidostato if his claim was hyperbole. It doesn't read as such. And I never claimed to refute any correlation between someone's current wealth and that of their parents. I am simply refuting the agrument that the 400 richest people in America are all from rich backgrounds.
Since a few examples of poor immigrant parents and grandparents don't sway you, I'll expand the list. Here are the ones from a middle class background, out of the first 60. Some of them are from the working upper-middle class, but most are central- or lower-middle class. Some, I couldn't find specifics, and may be from any range, but I assume here that their family was middle class.
# Person / father's, mother's careers / grandparents' careers / notes 2 Warren Buffet / finance, politics / groceries 3 Larry Ellison / public employee / unknown / born to unwed mother, adopted by relatives 4 Charles Koch / oil / newspaper/ grandfather was Dutch immigrant from middle class family 4 David Koch / oil / newspaper/ grandfather was Dutch immigrant from middle class family 6 Christy Walton/ unknown / unknown / widow of John Walton 7 Jim Walton / Wal-mart / various 8 Alice Walton / Wal-mart / various 9 S Robson Walton / Wal-mart / various 10 Michael Bloomberg / real estate agent / unknown / grandparents were Russian immigrants 11 Jeff Bezos / ranching / ranching / adoptive father was a Cuban immigrant 12 Sheldon Adelson / taxi driver, knitting shop / unknown 13 Sergey Brin / math professor, NASA researcher / unknown / born in Russia, left at age 6 13 Larry Page / computer science professors / unknown 15 George Soros / lawyer, silk shop / unknown, silk shop / born in Hungary, invaded by Nazis in 1944 19 Steve Ballmer / manager at Ford / unknown / father immigrated from Switzerland 20 Paul Allen / library director / unknown / co-founded Microsoft 21 Carl Icahn / singer & teacher, teacher / unknown 22 Michael Dell / orthodontist, stockbroker / unknown 23 Phil Knight / lawyer & newspaper / unknown 25 Len Blavatnik / unknown / unknown / born in USSR, moved to US at age 20 28 Laurene Powell Jobs / unknown / unknown / widow of Steve Jobs 28 James Simons / shoe factory / unknown 28 Jack C. Taylor / unknown / unknown 33 Ray Dalio / jazz musician / unknown / can't find his father's name 33 George Kaiser / oil / unknown / parents were Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany 36 Richard Kinder / unkown / unknown 36 Mark Zuckerberg / dentist, phychiatrist / unknown 39 Charles Ergen / nuclear physicist, accountant / unknown / father left Austria preceding WWII 40 Steve Cohen / dress manufacturer, piano teacher / unknown / not a politician in Tennessee 41 Andrew Beal / mechanical engineer, government / unknown 45 Eric Schmidt / economics professor, psychology / unknown 47 James Goodnight / hardware store / unknown 49 Harold Simmons / teachers / unknown 50 Charles Butt / grocery stores / pharmacist, grocery store 52 Ralph Lauren / house painter / unknown / parents were Jewish immigrants from Belarus 52 Ira Rennert / unknown / unknown 55 Eli Broad / house painter, dressmaker / unknown / parents were Lithuanian Jewish immigrants 56 John Menard, Jr / math professor & dairy farmer, teacher / unknown 57 David Geffen / clothing store / unknown / parents were Jewish immigrants from Palestine 57 John Malone / engineer / unknown 59 Jeffery Hildebrand / unknown / unknown 59 David Tepper / accountant, teacher / unknown
Notice how many of these people are either first, second, or third generation Americans. That's not even including the ones that I found no information on. So, go on and tell me how you'll excuse the 'hyperbole' of these sons of a taxi driver, house painter, real estate agent, jazz musician, etc, are from the upper-middle class with powerful connections.
I almost forgot - these are the first 60 out of 400. What are the chances that the next 300+ who are not quite this rich include many who are from decidedly poor backgrounds?
Your math teacher was correct. Answers themselves are not so important, but how you obtain an answer is. She was very nice not to fail you for the class.
I obtained them using the exact methods the book gave for each lesson. It isn't like the kids who showed their work had a dozen different methods they used.
And she would have had a hard time justifying failing me simply for not showing work.
I know it isn't fashionable to say this, but he was actually the head of the socialist party. Yeah, yeah, his didn't do the whole union pension thing, but the socialists still put him up there. So your point really is that socialists are idiots.
As for fascism being conservative, only if by conservative you mean wanting no individual liberty and all effort being to support the state. It's funny that I don't see conservatives in the US being in that vein. Some of them may want people to go to church, and not gamble or drink, but other conservatives just want people to support themselves and be decent citizens who go to church.
No, if there is a block in the US that wants everyone to pitch in to make the state stronger, it is certainly the left. It seems the only individual liberties they insist on are legal drugs and indiscriminate sex.
[Stupid BS clipped.] But say: "I'm a coder with self-diagnosed Aspergers and people should listen to what I have to say about the education system" and somehow its considered "informative".
As a technician who was diagnosed with autism back before they had re-discovered Asperger's syndrome but whose symptoms match its list quite well, and who has stories of both great teachers and bad teachers, what I say about public education can be considered as "informative" as the readers wish.
They don't care about your experience. They don't care about logic. The vocal minority (I hope) here simply thinks that their limited experience is both typical and sufficient for them to draw conclusions about a diverse system spread across a country.
It's funny you mention "limited experience", considering so many people are bringing up issues that have been discussed for decades across the whole country. Just because you haven't bothered to be informed in this matter doesn't mean we as a group have your limited experience with it.
As for my experience, I had a math teacher specifically create a test with the point of failing me. She was mad that I didn't show my work on my geometry problems. In her words, it meant we can't know where we went wrong when we have an incorrect answer. Never mind the fact that I had generally one or two incorrect answers a week, out of a couple hundred problems that I solved mainly in my head. (I used a basic calculator for long multiplication and division; all other calculations were mental.) The times I was wrong was usually because I missed the negative sign, and added instead of subtracting. I caught that during the review of our homework, so I understood what I did wrong.
But my geometry teacher kept telling the whole class to show their work, as if the other kids didn't all have to do so to work their way through the problems anyway. I was the only one who never showed work, and I wasn't going to just to please her. She also kept saying to write down the correct work and answer during the review as well, which I also didn't bother doing, for the one or two, if any, I missed per week.
So she started 'homework quizzes', where she would have a page with sections for the four or five assignments from that week, with five or ten numbers listed for each. We were to go through our sheets of homework, find those numbered problems, and write down the answers for those problems to show we either had the correct answer to begin with, or had written it during the review for ones we missed. We only had a few minutes to fill in all the answers, so there is no time to figure out the problem. Either have the correct answer available or get it wrong. And what a surprise, the ones I missed were always there, and I didn't have the correct answer, and therefor had incorrect answers on the homework quizzes.
Then, after a few weeks of this crap, she added the requirement of showing the work for some of them as well as the correct answer, presumably because I wasn't getting enough wrong. Or I didn't have any wrong answers that week to get hit with again. (I know, you are thinking I'm exaggerating my importance in this story. Wait to the end.) So now, even if I had the correct answer from doing these problems in my head, I lost points because I could do the problems in my head. I still refused to show my work.
Then one day, there was a really confusing problem. I guess it must have been confusing, because apparently most of the class got it wrong. Even with showing their work, they got it wrong. I of course, got it correct, with just the answer written down. The following day, during the review for that assignment, the class went over that problem about a dozen times, because the other students just could not get it figured out. I'll give the teacher credit, she didn't give up on the slower ones (this class was considered to be in the 'college prep' track, there were no stupid students in it). I watched the first few
Have you looked at the backgrounds of the people on the list. Most are solidly middle class, some are lower middle class, and some are from poor families. Considering the comment that started this particular line of discussion was "all of them come from at least upper middle class", I can show more than a few outliers quite easily. The two I chose were just off the top of my head. You want some of these "outliers"? Here they are of various family backgrounds:
3 Larry Ellison, born to an unwed mother, adopted by family members 10 Michael Bloomberg, gather was a real estate agent, grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants (not a group known for being wealthy) 11 Jeff Bezos, while his mother came from a ranching family, his adoptive father was a Cuban immigrant 12 Sheldon Adelson, father drove a taxi cab 13 Sergey Brin, born in the USSR, came to USA with parents at age 6 15 George Soros, while his parents were not poor, they were Jews in Hungary when the Nazis invaded
While none in the first 20 are from decidedly poor backgrounds, these ones did not come from rich, well-connected families. How many more do I have to list before they are no longer the outliers?
As for whether Sam Walton is an appropriate case, since he is dead, let me restate what I posted in response earlier.
a discussion based around poor people not managing money is the perfect place to bring up the heirs of Sam Walton, as in "Sam Walton came from a poor background, but managed his money well enough that his kids are in the top 10 richest people in the country"
I could have finished that statement with ", having taken his place when he died."
I used the Waltons to illustrate the ignorance behind the claim that all the rich people are from rich families. The ignorance is in assuming they are from long established wealth, the so called 'old money'. I would be surprised if only Oprah and Sam Walton came from low backgrounds. I would not be surprised if half of that list came from either poor childhoods, or their parents had one generation before.
If you can't figure out that a discussion based around poor people not managing money is the perfect place to bring up the heirs of Sam Walton, as in "Sam Walton came from a poor background, but managed his money well enough that his kids are in the top 10 richest people in the country", you have a rather obvious case of cognitive dissonance.
Slashdot Mirror
The real kicker here, would be a domestic attack in the wake of all this. If the NSA, CIA, and FBI can't stop an event with the amount of information they seem to be gathering, no more amount of access would allow them to stop it.
Boston just had a domestic attack. The warnings were completely ignored/missed because of usual stupidity and shortsightedness.
Technically, if the engine isn't pushing them through the air, they aren't flying.
They are falling ... with style.
A mere technicality. Pass a law saying certain donkeys are citizens, then bam, there you are.
The harder part is ensuring their age is above the Constitutional minimums. Not that they can't live that long, just who keeps records of donkey births?
and then shoot you anyway.
That guy should have ran at the engineers who were 'desperately' trying to find the problem. If he was holding a couple of them in place, maybe they would have tried harder.
And a park in New York. That dumb kid should have had a friend with a rifle spotting for him.
I noticed that too, and wasn't sure he wasn't correct.
plain - not unusual, boring, no distinctive feature
plane - large flat area
Between the two choices, plane does seem to fit better.
Why can't the woman shutup for 10 seconds so I can concentrate on the effect she keeps prattling on about? It makes it difficult to study when her voice is over top of the illusion half the time.
Scenario: A female college student goes to a party, has consensual sex with a guy, gets pregnant from it, and wants to abort the fetus.
If I oppose the last part, how am I wanting the woman to suffer?
What is the suffering of living with the consequences of her actions?
Why isn't the better solution not willingly engaging in activities that cause her suffering?
Without straying from this particular scenario, what is your best response?
Because populaces never overthrew oppressive governments while carrying swords, spears, or pitchforks.
What's more, even if it did mean a civilian organized military, why then hell aren't people screaming about such militia organizations being outlawed and put on terrorist lists?
Because they just don't want people to have guns. It isn't about whether a group is actually "well regulated" within their own ranks, it is only about the fact that someone owns a gun, and they don't like that.
I think it's funny that they would fight to (mostly) preserve the other rights the Constitution guarantees us, but want that one to vanish.
ftfy
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, ...
But a clock that loses one second a day is much more useful to us.
Japan has that covered already
No, he said "nice" not "rice". That rice burner they have isn't what he had in mind.
I'm saying all of these are middle class. But the statement I refuted to start with was that all 400 people on that list are from upper-middle class or established wealthy families with important connections. I could see the argument if even 90% fit that mold, but they don't. (I thought about noting on the list whether I considered each one to be upper-, central-, or lower-middle class. That would be too subjective.)
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue just to argue, and I know you aren't either. Please join me and tragedy at the bar for a couple rounds.
Hey, good commenting. Even your previous post, really. And yes, it is difficult to get definite statements of many of their family situations. I googled around for many of them to help fill in more detail. For the ones that are listed "unknown", I just assume they were working class, so low-middle to middle class. One or two of them I felt like putting in my "Poor Background" list, but didn't think that was appropriate without proof.
As for whether "Russian Jewish immigrant" is a mark of poverty or not, I worked under the assumption that if the grandfather or great-grandfather had been a banker, jeweler, or court advisor, that would have been mentioned. So the ones that have little to no information on immigrant parents or grandparents, I consider they came in like the millions of others, poor. But I could be wrong, so thank you for stressing that.
Everything else you wrote is excellent, even though we don't agree on various things. As for the points we are arguing, yes we are looking at this from two different angles. Time to shake hands and go out to the bar for drinks. I'll buy the first round.
. :^)
Finally, the thought of you shouting at the monitor "She had a knitting shop you bastard!" is funny.
Honestly, you're wrong. And way too worked up about it.
Oh yes, we are all just supposed to follow all the little rules, without questioning authority. Complete obedience, no independent thought. How cheery.
As an added bonus, just your description of it made you sound like an insufferable douche.
I'm not insufferable at all, and wasn't back then. I actually would usually help the other kids in class who didn't understand whatever math concepts were the lesson of the day. I didn't lord it over them that I understood it better than them. I used that fact to help them understand it better, so they got better grades. Even the dense ones.
Here's a hint: It's not acceptable to be correct and a jerk.Being correct does not offset the jerkiness.
But I wasn't a jerk in class. I simply didn't follow one specific rule, and never made a fuss about it at the time. You may think I'm being a jerk now, but I'm not being graded now, and your opinion is your own.
Plus, you think way too highly of yourself. Get some humility.
I accepted a lower grade from a teacher specifically targeting me, without making a big deal out of it when it mattered. That negates your statements.
I guess there's the possibility that you're just trolling here. "Too bad life isn't more like the movies.". Seriously?
Have you seen the type movies I'm talking about? That's the whole setup of many of them. The one thing keeping some burnt out teacher going is hope that she'll find that one bright flame of understanding. My teacher found that flame and threw a bucket of water on it.
I get that you don't like me from what I've written here. Please don't feel offended when I say that doesn't matter. I wrote my story to illustrate why some students don't have a favorable view of school and teachers. If you think I got too personal there, I can only say I barely scratched the surface.
But if I copied someone else's work, I would have copied the 'show work' part as well. So it wouldn't be proof that I didn't cheat. She knew I could do the work in my head. I did on the pop quizzes, and had the same level of accuracy. That was better than 99% overall, with simple errors being the problem, not my understanding of the math.
And, no, it isn't hard to comprehend that there are thousands of little rules we have to live by, or face punishment. I faced the punishment for choosing to ignore that one in particular. I never contested the 'fairness' of the homework quizzes, I accepted that it brought my 99.8% grade down to a 99.7% for the class.
What's funny is if that scenario was a Hollywood movie, my teacher would have gone home, looked at her husband, and said, "Damn, most of those kids are dense, couldn't figure their way out of an isosceles triangle shaped room if you told them there was a hidden doorway at the apex. But this one kid, I tell you. He's sorta strange and quiet, but he can do this shit in his head. I put a problem on the board, he reads it, closes his eyes, and says the answer. The other kids are still trying to figure out what buttons to press on their calculator, and he has the answer. I wish all my students were that way." Too bad life isn't more like the movies.
As for code, I'm not a programmer. But for the minor programming/scripting I have done over the years, I comment it as needed.
3 Larry Ellison, born to an unwed mother, adopted by family members
Adopted by family members yes. Wealthy ones.
Read his wikipedia page: "He grew up in a two-bedroom apartment in Chicago's South Shore middle-class Jewish neighborhood." Is that a sign of a wealthy family?
His adoptive father was "was a pompous government employee who had made a small fortune in Chicago real estate, only to lose it during the Great Depression." So, no, not wealthy.
10 Michael Bloomberg, gather was a real estate agent, grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants (not a group known for being wealthy)
His parents were middle class at least during his formative years, certainly not poor. It's a little unclear what his father did, some sources say bookkeeper and some say real estate. Varied business interests? In any case
I didn't say his parents were not middle class. I actually said that list is all middle class, simply not upper-middle class with powerful connections. He had Russian Jewish immigrant grandparents on both sides of his family. Are you agreeing this isn't an upper-class background, which was the argument I refuted in the first place?
11 Jeff Bezos, while his mother came from a ranching family, his adoptive father was a Cuban immigrant
So, his mother's family were rich and she married someone who might not have been rich. I'm not sure how that makes him not from a wealthy background.
Jeff Bezos is the only one I listed that you have a chance of claiming comes from a rich background with good connections. Yes, his mother's family owns a ranch, but I don't find anything on how much money they made, and it is really easy for farmers and ranchers to lose everything. His mother's father was a regional director of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, which probably helped open a few doors as well. As I say, this is the closest of the ones I listed to being upper-middle class with connections.
I listed Jeff specifically because I think it is great that a Cuban immigrant can come to America, alone at age 15, and marry a young ranch girl with a young son, and now be the father of the 11th wealthiest person in the US.
12 Sheldon Adelson, father drove a taxi cab
Mother ran a knitting shop. Not that it made them rich, just wondering why you only count the fathers.
Wow, you got me. A knitting shop.
I listed the father because I didn't feel like adding that his mother ran a knitting shop. Check out the list I posted in response to mvdwege, where I had that detail as I made the list, with all the others whose mother's occupation was listed. But for the short list, I went with the fact Sheldon's father drove a taxi cab to illustrate that the family was not upper-middle class with powerful connections.
13 Sergey Brin, born in the USSR, came to USA with parents at age 6
Father a math professor and mother a researcher for NASA. Once again, not rich, but definitely middle class.
What part of "born in the USSR" doesn't scream "not upper-middle class with powerful connections"?
Also, Once again, you are implying I said they are not middle class. Why?
15 George Soros, while his parents were not poor, they were Jews in Hungary when the Nazis invaded
Mother from a reasonably well to do family and lawyer father. Not necessarily rich, but far from poor. So middle class background and family connections.
Have you heard of the Nazis before? Have you heard of the Holocaust? Do you have any idea what happened to many "reasonably well to do" Jews during that time? Of course you do. I don't care for Soros' actions or what I have read of his outlook ( I have read one of his books, but it was disappointing
You'll have to ask turbidostato if his claim was hyperbole. It doesn't read as such. And I never claimed to refute any correlation between someone's current wealth and that of their parents. I am simply refuting the agrument that the 400 richest people in America are all from rich backgrounds.
Since a few examples of poor immigrant parents and grandparents don't sway you, I'll expand the list. Here are the ones from a middle class background, out of the first 60. Some of them are from the working upper-middle class, but most are central- or lower-middle class. Some, I couldn't find specifics, and may be from any range, but I assume here that their family was middle class.
# Person / father's, mother's careers / grandparents' careers / notes
2 Warren Buffet / finance, politics / groceries
3 Larry Ellison / public employee / unknown / born to unwed mother, adopted by relatives
4 Charles Koch / oil / newspaper/ grandfather was Dutch immigrant from middle class family
4 David Koch / oil / newspaper/ grandfather was Dutch immigrant from middle class family
6 Christy Walton/ unknown / unknown / widow of John Walton
7 Jim Walton / Wal-mart / various
8 Alice Walton / Wal-mart / various
9 S Robson Walton / Wal-mart / various
10 Michael Bloomberg / real estate agent / unknown / grandparents were Russian immigrants
11 Jeff Bezos / ranching / ranching / adoptive father was a Cuban immigrant
12 Sheldon Adelson / taxi driver, knitting shop / unknown
13 Sergey Brin / math professor, NASA researcher / unknown / born in Russia, left at age 6
13 Larry Page / computer science professors / unknown
15 George Soros / lawyer, silk shop / unknown, silk shop / born in Hungary, invaded by Nazis in 1944
19 Steve Ballmer / manager at Ford / unknown / father immigrated from Switzerland
20 Paul Allen / library director / unknown / co-founded Microsoft
21 Carl Icahn / singer & teacher, teacher / unknown
22 Michael Dell / orthodontist, stockbroker / unknown
23 Phil Knight / lawyer & newspaper / unknown
25 Len Blavatnik / unknown / unknown / born in USSR, moved to US at age 20
28 Laurene Powell Jobs / unknown / unknown / widow of Steve Jobs
28 James Simons / shoe factory / unknown
28 Jack C. Taylor / unknown / unknown
33 Ray Dalio / jazz musician / unknown / can't find his father's name
33 George Kaiser / oil / unknown / parents were Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany
36 Richard Kinder / unkown / unknown
36 Mark Zuckerberg / dentist, phychiatrist / unknown
39 Charles Ergen / nuclear physicist, accountant / unknown / father left Austria preceding WWII
40 Steve Cohen / dress manufacturer, piano teacher / unknown / not a politician in Tennessee
41 Andrew Beal / mechanical engineer, government / unknown
45 Eric Schmidt / economics professor, psychology / unknown
47 James Goodnight / hardware store / unknown
49 Harold Simmons / teachers / unknown
50 Charles Butt / grocery stores / pharmacist, grocery store
52 Ralph Lauren / house painter / unknown / parents were Jewish immigrants from Belarus
52 Ira Rennert / unknown / unknown
55 Eli Broad / house painter, dressmaker / unknown / parents were Lithuanian Jewish immigrants
56 John Menard, Jr / math professor & dairy farmer, teacher / unknown
57 David Geffen / clothing store / unknown / parents were Jewish immigrants from Palestine
57 John Malone / engineer / unknown
59 Jeffery Hildebrand / unknown / unknown
59 David Tepper / accountant, teacher / unknown
Notice how many of these people are either first, second, or third generation Americans. That's not even including the ones that I found no information on. So, go on and tell me how you'll excuse the 'hyperbole' of these sons of a taxi driver, house painter, real estate agent, jazz musician, etc, are from the upper-middle class with powerful connections.
I almost forgot - these are the first 60 out of 400. What are the chances that the next 300+ who are not quite this rich include many who are from decidedly poor backgrounds?
Your math teacher was correct. Answers themselves are not so important, but how you obtain an answer is. She was very nice not to fail you for the class.
I obtained them using the exact methods the book gave for each lesson. It isn't like the kids who showed their work had a dozen different methods they used.
And she would have had a hard time justifying failing me simply for not showing work.
Of course they were. For very large values of 'right'.
I know it isn't fashionable to say this, but he was actually the head of the socialist party. Yeah, yeah, his didn't do the whole union pension thing, but the socialists still put him up there. So your point really is that socialists are idiots.
As for fascism being conservative, only if by conservative you mean wanting no individual liberty and all effort being to support the state. It's funny that I don't see conservatives in the US being in that vein. Some of them may want people to go to church, and not gamble or drink, but other conservatives just want people to support themselves and be decent citizens who go to church.
No, if there is a block in the US that wants everyone to pitch in to make the state stronger, it is certainly the left. It seems the only individual liberties they insist on are legal drugs and indiscriminate sex.
[Stupid BS clipped.] But say: "I'm a coder with self-diagnosed Aspergers and people should listen to what I have to say about the education system" and somehow its considered "informative".
As a technician who was diagnosed with autism back before they had re-discovered Asperger's syndrome but whose symptoms match its list quite well, and who has stories of both great teachers and bad teachers, what I say about public education can be considered as "informative" as the readers wish.
They don't care about your experience. They don't care about logic. The vocal minority (I hope) here simply thinks that their limited experience is both typical and sufficient for them to draw conclusions about a diverse system spread across a country.
It's funny you mention "limited experience", considering so many people are bringing up issues that have been discussed for decades across the whole country. Just because you haven't bothered to be informed in this matter doesn't mean we as a group have your limited experience with it.
As for my experience, I had a math teacher specifically create a test with the point of failing me. She was mad that I didn't show my work on my geometry problems. In her words, it meant we can't know where we went wrong when we have an incorrect answer. Never mind the fact that I had generally one or two incorrect answers a week, out of a couple hundred problems that I solved mainly in my head. (I used a basic calculator for long multiplication and division; all other calculations were mental.) The times I was wrong was usually because I missed the negative sign, and added instead of subtracting. I caught that during the review of our homework, so I understood what I did wrong.
But my geometry teacher kept telling the whole class to show their work, as if the other kids didn't all have to do so to work their way through the problems anyway. I was the only one who never showed work, and I wasn't going to just to please her. She also kept saying to write down the correct work and answer during the review as well, which I also didn't bother doing, for the one or two, if any, I missed per week.
So she started 'homework quizzes', where she would have a page with sections for the four or five assignments from that week, with five or ten numbers listed for each. We were to go through our sheets of homework, find those numbered problems, and write down the answers for those problems to show we either had the correct answer to begin with, or had written it during the review for ones we missed. We only had a few minutes to fill in all the answers, so there is no time to figure out the problem. Either have the correct answer available or get it wrong. And what a surprise, the ones I missed were always there, and I didn't have the correct answer, and therefor had incorrect answers on the homework quizzes.
Then, after a few weeks of this crap, she added the requirement of showing the work for some of them as well as the correct answer, presumably because I wasn't getting enough wrong. Or I didn't have any wrong answers that week to get hit with again. (I know, you are thinking I'm exaggerating my importance in this story. Wait to the end.) So now, even if I had the correct answer from doing these problems in my head, I lost points because I could do the problems in my head. I still refused to show my work.
Then one day, there was a really confusing problem. I guess it must have been confusing, because apparently most of the class got it wrong. Even with showing their work, they got it wrong. I of course, got it correct, with just the answer written down. The following day, during the review for that assignment, the class went over that problem about a dozen times, because the other students just could not get it figured out. I'll give the teacher credit, she didn't give up on the slower ones (this class was considered to be in the 'college prep' track, there were no stupid students in it). I watched the first few
Have you looked at the backgrounds of the people on the list. Most are solidly middle class, some are lower middle class, and some are from poor families. Considering the comment that started this particular line of discussion was "all of them come from at least upper middle class", I can show more than a few outliers quite easily. The two I chose were just off the top of my head. You want some of these "outliers"? Here they are of various family backgrounds:
3 Larry Ellison, born to an unwed mother, adopted by family members
10 Michael Bloomberg, gather was a real estate agent, grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants (not a group known for being wealthy)
11 Jeff Bezos, while his mother came from a ranching family, his adoptive father was a Cuban immigrant
12 Sheldon Adelson, father drove a taxi cab
13 Sergey Brin, born in the USSR, came to USA with parents at age 6
15 George Soros, while his parents were not poor, they were Jews in Hungary when the Nazis invaded
While none in the first 20 are from decidedly poor backgrounds, these ones did not come from rich, well-connected families. How many more do I have to list before they are no longer the outliers?
As for whether Sam Walton is an appropriate case, since he is dead, let me restate what I posted in response earlier.
a discussion based around poor people not managing money is the perfect place to bring up the heirs of Sam Walton, as in "Sam Walton came from a poor background, but managed his money well enough that his kids are in the top 10 richest people in the country"
I could have finished that statement with ", having taken his place when he died."
I used the Waltons to illustrate the ignorance behind the claim that all the rich people are from rich families. The ignorance is in assuming they are from long established wealth, the so called 'old money'. I would be surprised if only Oprah and Sam Walton came from low backgrounds. I would not be surprised if half of that list came from either poor childhoods, or their parents had one generation before.
If you can't figure out that a discussion based around poor people not managing money is the perfect place to bring up the heirs of Sam Walton, as in "Sam Walton came from a poor background, but managed his money well enough that his kids are in the top 10 richest people in the country", you have a rather obvious case of cognitive dissonance.