"Your aircraft have dropped enough sonar buoys that a man could walk from Greenland to Scotland without getting his feet wet. Shall we dispense with the bull?" These Soviet Russians are up to something I tell you! Oops, wait, err...wrong movie...err forum...I mean...In SOVIET Russia, buoys drop YOU!
It's the first in a series of claws that are slowly being sunk into the Fleshy Underbelly that is the LINUX Penguin. A couple more cleverly thrown chairs and my plan will be complete! Muhahaha./Ballmervoice:)
Well, what can ya do? I'm glad to see that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner has been updated for the Modern Age. Incidentally, it turns out the "Ich bin ein Berliner" isn't actually correct. Germans in Berlin refer to themselves as Berliner regularly. Maybe we need a president more like the jelly donuts of yesterday? Somehow, I've digressed from the topic. I think I need more coffee, and a jelly donut.;)
/sigh. Not the old inaccurate-comparison-to-the-inferior-Microsoft-backup-that-isn't-like-Time-Machine-at-all-reference again. You'd think people would RTFM...oh wait...
Yes it is misleading, IMO. The _Intent_ of open voting is that there aren't weak links in the chain where monkey business can happen. Closed Source Code is a huge part of the entire Deibold Voting Machine Debacle, for example which is what has gotten us to where we are now.:D So again, the whole thing is misleading - a dog and pony show.
Tag this story as "inaccurate", "badtitle", or "badsummary"? If the source code isn't open to the public then this is basically a dog & pony show, IMO.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana, Spanish born American Philosopher, Poet and Humanist who made important contributions to aesthetics, speculative philosophy and literary criticism. 1863-1952
"..That's an argument against the way transparency is being used in Leopard, not against its use in general..."
Correct! I'm glad you understand!
One more time:
To recap, it is a latent spatial depth cue adding to the Gestalt of the UI, towards a more 3D metaphor of operating systems in congruence with real world objects.
"...Except that cue as indicated by transparency is not tied to the linked objects, so it fails to tie the menu with the windows of an application, providing an inaccurate clue. At the same time it reduces readability. Even Apple must have noted this since they reduced the amount of transparency in later builds. None of us can know for sure what Apple's usability tests showed, but from a basic UI design perspective, it does not seem to make sense...."
Hey smart guy, take a read and quit steamrolling over my response with your clever trolling: http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A%20gestalt&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
It doesn't reduce readability, that's your opinion, and not everyone agrees with that. To recap, it is a latent spatial depth cue adding to the Gestalt of the UI. You're just not able to grokk what I wrote.
Did comprehension suddenly go out of style? Depth cue? Hello world? It's like you've never seen Star Trek II. "..pattern indicates 2 dimensional thinking..."
I agree that branding is important. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joomla to see a great example of OSS done right with a branding approach. I also agree that most young people aren't worried about privacy, like a frog in a slow boiling pot of water isn't worried about boiling to death.:D
Building an Open Source version of Facebook is probably one of the smartest thing people can do right now in this Web 2.0 (*shudder*) world. More to the point, privacy advocates should be actively boycotting Facebook if they know what is good for them. I refuse to use it. The people who maintain it have too much power and it has reached a level of social and interpersonal networking utility that trumps novelty and freedom for conformity.
"...Well, I've done UI design and testing professionally, taken classes specifically on the subject as part of my undergraduate degree, and attended a number of conferences and lectures on the subject. I've got to say, he does make some good points (in my opinion)...."
I have done UI too.for.years. I don't agree, we have different experiences, and I think I have very different experiences than you have had. I think most people here are missing the forest for the trees on this one.
"...I must have missed where Mr. Siracusa argued against using transparency..."
He said it right here when he used the word arbitrary, he implied that it was used in Leopard and that it was bad:
"...The phrase "arbitrary graphical change" has become increasingly applicable, and the sheer number of possible looks for any given element of the OS has exploded."
I think you're right that it's possible that it's just flashy, but that would go against the history of Apple and their usability, which the Ars reviewer lopped off by excluding all of the development of Mac OS X by only looking at it from '99 on. His review about UI is lacking. His under the hood review was good. End_of_story.
To recap, it is a latent spatial depth cue adding to the Gestalt of the UI, towards a more 3D metaphor of operating systems in congruence with real world objects. If you don't like that or think its real, guess what? - there are millions of other people in the world and some of them do!
- You clowns can mark me troll all you want but it doesn't change the fact that Apple has a history of looking at this and you guys just think it's electro porn and you're wrong.:D -
You just want to bash Apple and OS X so you can hump your Ubuntu builds (which I love, BTW, but it still needs a lot more work).
The only person in this series of replies who gets it is Space Cowboy. Kudos to you. I'm done.
The first half of your rant is basically irrelevant, elitist mumbling about how John Siracusa isn't "qualified" to offer his opinion on user interface design. Passing over that:
Translucence is part of a real world set of Metaphors.
A metaphor for what, exactly? What does making the menu bar translucent actually accomplish? You can argue that it fits better with the "Gestalt" of the interface as a whole, but unless you can point out specifically how the translucency improves usability, Siracusa's point stands: the translucent menu bar's decreased legibility makes the change a net usability loss.
This is arguably the goal of a tool such as a computer, a Turing Machine, a Robot. Getting closer to real.
A "real" menu bar is what, exactly? More than that, I do not want my computer's interface to be "real"; I want it to be usable. Computers are significantly different from other consumer products, so it stands to reason that the best interface for a computer would not necessarily mirror those of other, physical devices. I did argue that the translucency fits with the "gestalt" of the interface. You just steamrolled over it. As your website clearly shows, user interfaces are not your priority. All future opinions from you now have a good context.
But it doesn't have to be doing something discretely beneficial, per se, if it's about a spatial consideration, which is where I was going with my comments. A spatial consideration is about a general level of perceptual depth, think Semiotics or Gestalt Psychology. When you say "...That doesn't hold true for the menu bar, no useful information is being conveyed through the transparency, just visual clutter that makes the menu illegible...." this is your opinion, and clearly subjective. In my opinion, the depth and translucency add to the Gestalt of the UI in a restrained manner, as opposed to Windows Vista and Aero, which IS distracting with the overtly blurred translucency. So to recap, the lack of useful information you cite in your above example is actually latent spatial information and you, sir, are incorrect.
I would argue that Vista got it wrong and Leopard got it right, that Vista was taking cues from OS X development and that your comments are inaccurate. Post as something other than an AC and we'll talk. One more thing about the review: the Ars reviewer knows lots about code, but not lots about UI's. Yes UI's matter.
I read the review written by John Siracusa today. I have to say I disagree with him on many points. What makes him qualified to nitpick these changes? SE/30? He's used OS X since 99? That's kid stuff. Basically, this review is from a PC-centric-everyman point of view. To me, this review is basically a Jazzed-up Troll that is being passed off as Silicon Ten Commandments. Specifically, where he loses credibility in my book is when he says: "...The phrase "arbitrary graphical change" has become increasingly applicable, and the sheer number of possible looks for any given element of the OS has exploded." - arbitrary according to you, Johnny_come_lately! You would think someone from Ars would study up more on Interface Design. 3D effect? Manipulation of Data, Depth as part of the User Experience? Metaphors? http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGHIDesign/chapter_5_section_2.html Translucence is part of a real world set of Metaphors. It's not Eye Candy. As an astute poster has mentioned on/. in the past, translucent objects are used in the real world every day. Map Panels, Dividing walls, Map Overlays, etc. find use by Engineers, Scientists, Military, etc. Continuing to use the metaphor is a progression towards advanced 3D UI's IMO. This guy just doesn't seem to get it. When real world metaphors that use cues,depth, reflection, translucency are used they help for people to FORGET the interface and focus on the task. This is arguably the goal of a tool such as a computer, a Turing Machine, a Robot. Getting closer to real. Get it? Instead, we get this guy whining about the minutiae admittedly that we all love so well and have to focus on as part of our work here but the rest of the world doesn't really care about. In short, to recap, If a computer or gaming platform is a task enhancing device or tool, then real world metaphors in the user interface that bring it closer to an intuitive, natural interaction similar to real life are to be promoted. Think of it as suspension of disbelief to use a phrase from Cinema./rant
Slashdot Mirror
"Your aircraft have dropped enough sonar buoys that a man could walk from Greenland to Scotland without getting his feet wet. Shall we dispense with the bull?" These Soviet Russians are up to something I tell you! Oops, wait, err...wrong movie...err forum...I mean...In SOVIET Russia, buoys drop YOU!
In SOVIET Universe, opposite direction spins YOU!
Proven huh. Hmm. Smells fish to me, those absolutes you wield....Care to post with a user account?
I, for one, welcome our Ancient MULTICS, Father of UNIX, Overlord. :)
LOL. I know my post didn't sound like Ballmer. I was just being silly. He should sound like that, though.
It's the first in a series of claws that are slowly being sunk into the Fleshy Underbelly that is the LINUX Penguin. A couple more cleverly thrown chairs and my plan will be complete! Muhahaha. /Ballmervoice :)
It should probably be based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography . Unless they want something that only they can break. :O
Well, what can ya do? I'm glad to see that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner has been updated for the Modern Age. Incidentally, it turns out the "Ich bin ein Berliner" isn't actually correct. Germans in Berlin refer to themselves as Berliner regularly. Maybe we need a president more like the jelly donuts of yesterday? Somehow, I've digressed from the topic. I think I need more coffee, and a jelly donut. ;)
Now we can finally track http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceGodzilla in High Definition detail!
Sounds like Ballmer has been busy throwing chairs within chairs. *rubs hands*
Yes it is misleading, IMO. The _Intent_ of open voting is that there aren't weak links in the chain where monkey business can happen. Closed Source Code is a huge part of the entire Deibold Voting Machine Debacle, for example which is what has gotten us to where we are now. :D So again, the whole thing is misleading - a dog and pony show.
Tag this story as "inaccurate", "badtitle", or "badsummary"? If the source code isn't open to the public then this is basically a dog & pony show, IMO.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana, Spanish born American Philosopher, Poet and Humanist who made important contributions to aesthetics, speculative philosophy and literary criticism. 1863-1952
The amusing thing is one third of all of us are probably reading and commenting on this article from work. Oh the recursive irony!
"..That's an argument against the way transparency is being used in Leopard, not against its use in general..."
Correct! I'm glad you understand!
One more time:
To recap, it is a latent spatial depth cue adding to the Gestalt of the UI, towards a more 3D metaphor of operating systems in congruence with real world objects.
"...Except that cue as indicated by transparency is not tied to the linked objects, so it fails to tie the menu with the windows of an application, providing an inaccurate clue. At the same time it reduces readability. Even Apple must have noted this since they reduced the amount of transparency in later builds. None of us can know for sure what Apple's usability tests showed, but from a basic UI design perspective, it does not seem to make sense...."
Hey smart guy, take a read and quit steamrolling over my response with your clever trolling: http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A%20gestalt&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 It doesn't reduce readability, that's your opinion, and not everyone agrees with that. To recap, it is a latent spatial depth cue adding to the Gestalt of the UI. You're just not able to grokk what I wrote.
Did comprehension suddenly go out of style? Depth cue? Hello world? It's like you've never seen Star Trek II. "..pattern indicates 2 dimensional thinking..."
I agree that branding is important. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joomla to see a great example of OSS done right with a branding approach. I also agree that most young people aren't worried about privacy, like a frog in a slow boiling pot of water isn't worried about boiling to death. :D
Building an Open Source version of Facebook is probably one of the smartest thing people can do right now in this Web 2.0 (*shudder*) world. More to the point, privacy advocates should be actively boycotting Facebook if they know what is good for them. I refuse to use it. The people who maintain it have too much power and it has reached a level of social and interpersonal networking utility that trumps novelty and freedom for conformity.
Oh come on, go ahead and say it! Don't be shy!
FUD
"...Well, I've done UI design and testing professionally, taken classes specifically on the subject as part of my undergraduate degree, and attended a number of conferences and lectures on the subject. I've got to say, he does make some good points (in my opinion)...."
:D -
I have done UI too.for.years. I don't agree, we have different experiences, and I think I have very different experiences than you have had. I think most people here are missing the forest for the trees on this one.
"...I must have missed where Mr. Siracusa argued against using transparency..."
He said it right here when he used the word arbitrary, he implied that it was used in Leopard and that it was bad:
"...The phrase "arbitrary graphical change" has become increasingly applicable, and the sheer number of possible looks for any given element of the OS has exploded."
I think you're right that it's possible that it's just flashy, but that would go against the history of Apple and their usability, which the Ars reviewer lopped off by excluding all of the development of Mac OS X by only looking at it from '99 on. His review about UI is lacking. His under the hood review was good. End_of_story.
To recap, it is a latent spatial depth cue adding to the Gestalt of the UI, towards a more 3D metaphor of operating systems in congruence with real world objects. If you don't like that or think its real, guess what? - there are millions of other people in the world and some of them do!
- You clowns can mark me troll all you want but it doesn't change the fact that Apple has a history of looking at this and you guys just think it's electro porn and you're wrong.
You just want to bash Apple and OS X so you can hump your Ubuntu builds (which I love, BTW, but it still needs a lot more work).
The only person in this series of replies who gets it is Space Cowboy. Kudos to you. I'm done.
But it doesn't have to be doing something discretely beneficial, per se, if it's about a spatial consideration, which is where I was going with my comments. A spatial consideration is about a general level of perceptual depth, think Semiotics or Gestalt Psychology. When you say "...That doesn't hold true for the menu bar, no useful information is being conveyed through the transparency, just visual clutter that makes the menu illegible...." this is your opinion, and clearly subjective. In my opinion, the depth and translucency add to the Gestalt of the UI in a restrained manner, as opposed to Windows Vista and Aero, which IS distracting with the overtly blurred translucency. So to recap, the lack of useful information you cite in your above example is actually latent spatial information and you, sir, are incorrect.
I would argue that Vista got it wrong and Leopard got it right, that Vista was taking cues from OS X development and that your comments are inaccurate. Post as something other than an AC and we'll talk. One more thing about the review: the Ars reviewer knows lots about code, but not lots about UI's. Yes UI's matter.
I read the review written by John Siracusa today. I have to say I disagree with him on many points. What makes him qualified to nitpick these changes? SE/30? He's used OS X since 99? That's kid stuff. Basically, this review is from a PC-centric-everyman point of view. To me, this review is basically a Jazzed-up Troll that is being passed off as Silicon Ten Commandments. Specifically, where he loses credibility in my book is when he says: "...The phrase "arbitrary graphical change" has become increasingly applicable, and the sheer number of possible looks for any given element of the OS has exploded." - arbitrary according to you, Johnny_come_lately! You would think someone from Ars would study up more on Interface Design. 3D effect? Manipulation of Data, Depth as part of the User Experience? Metaphors? http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGHIDesign/chapter_5_section_2.html Translucence is part of a real world set of Metaphors. It's not Eye Candy. As an astute poster has mentioned on /. in the past, translucent objects are used in the real world every day. Map Panels, Dividing walls, Map Overlays, etc. find use by Engineers, Scientists, Military, etc. Continuing to use the metaphor is a progression towards advanced 3D UI's IMO. This guy just doesn't seem to get it. When real world metaphors that use cues,depth, reflection, translucency are used they help for people to FORGET the interface and focus on the task. This is arguably the goal of a tool such as a computer, a Turing Machine, a Robot. Getting closer to real. Get it? Instead, we get this guy whining about the minutiae admittedly that we all love so well and have to focus on as part of our work here but the rest of the world doesn't really care about. In short, to recap, If a computer or gaming platform is a task enhancing device or tool, then real world metaphors in the user interface that bring it closer to an intuitive, natural interaction similar to real life are to be promoted. Think of it as suspension of disbelief to use a phrase from Cinema. /rant