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Germany Seeks Expansion of Computer Spying
gooman writes "The LA Times reports on a proposal to secretly scan suspects' hard drives which is causing unease in a nation with a history of official surveillance. Along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen."
You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately.
Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed
We already have something like that in America. It's called Geek Squad.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Next they will be mandating the use of Windows because their trojan does not work on Macs and Linux. I can just imagine getting a letter: "Dear Suspect, in order to secretly monitor your computer use, we require..."
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Yes but... does it run ON Linux? Or am I again forced to run Windows "to satisfy my government's spying needs"?
sign these papers!
what do the papers say?
they say that we have treated you well.
i cannot sign the papers
why not?
you have broken all my fingers
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
If this doesn't convince anyone who'd be considered 'suspicious' online in Germany to load up on spyware prevention-and-detection tools (assuming they're using Windows), I don't know what will.
It'll be interesting to see if some future mandatory German tax software might have a list of 'incompatible software' that it will kindly uninstall for you in future tax seasons.
Ryan Fenton
The fact that they think they can actually implement this shows how stupid they are. I would guess that some gov agencies do this already on a small number of highly targeted computers. Smart criminals ( there aren't very many ) can beat that stuff anyway. This kind of news is good for Linux, where everything is open and if you really want to know what's going on with your computer, you CAN find out.
How dare these Germans! Don't they know that wiretapping is against the Constitution!??!
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
I hope hacker organizations around the World all do the same, and if possible, do it for folks who live in countries where such activity will get them killed. *ahem*Chine*ahem*
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
In America, the government just does things like this, hoping it stays a secret. If it is found out, you smear anyone who is upset as anti-American. If there are hearings on it, you get amnesia and claim executive priveledge. Eventaully, a congressman will have sex with something, or somewhere, he isn't supposed to, and everyone forgets.
Really, it's a wonderful system we have here.
Norton Security will fix that.
May I know how exactly they are going to get through my OpenBSD firewall and implant a trojan on my FreeBSD desktop? I'm a bit confused...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Nicht touchen das Blinkenlights! Das Harddisk sind belong zu UNS!
Imagine a back door, vulnerability or leaked/cracked private key in one of those.
Given governments' competence in such matters that's just a matter of time.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
Isn't this the country which is going to utilize the Open Document Format? Now they are proposing to spy on computers. What if I issue the command "make buildworld". Are they goin to reinfect my BSD system? Are they even going to try to compromise Linux and BSD? What about live filesystems like Knoppix. How the hell are they going to infect your CD?
So will they come up with an 'approved' list of software ( and hardware ) that you are allowed to possess. Anything else would make you a terrorist.
Better hide those Ataris and Amigas !
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Is it going to be legal to protect yourself from these? Assuming they are found, dissected, and something is available to block or corrupt their program, would it not be classified as malware and thus, completely legal to protect against.
As for the reliability of the information gathered: Is information gathered in this way admissible? It would seem that there are to many potential snags with this that it would never be able to be relied upon by itself.
Invexi - a Phoenix, AZ based web design and web development company.
Wow, sounds like the Geheime Staatspolizei are making their comeback.
It will be more like 'come with us'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
than give up my rights.
"No one will really be free until nerd persecution ends."
I wasn't around back then, but I'm pretty sure facism has a proven track record in germany.
At first I thought they were talking about the US. Then the next sentence says it's Germany. Then I thought they meant the US but wrote Germany by mistake.
--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
Im not completely familiar with how this could be done so forgive me if im being ignorant. But if this is a virus that scans peoples hard drives and sends back info, if it only sends file names that it is easily defeated by using nondescript file names. If it actually sends back the files themselves then its going to take a huge amount of bandwidth eating up the citizens network and most likely alerting the would be terrorist anyways. It seems like this would be awfully tough to implement, but this is more of a really. I just want to know how this could really work.
What is this FP you keep babbling about? Is it someone's initials?
Flew via Frankfurt with my sister last week. From what I've seen the sense of 'protection' on that airport is very different from other places I've been (I've not been outside Europe).
A tiny-tiny metal piece in my trouser set of the metal detector. They searched me 'nazi-style' with shouting and everything. In the meanwhile I was thinking 'Get real!'. It's almost as if they want people to get used to it.
It's about time Europe does something better than the US.
We consistenly whoop their collective ass at everything from science, technology, medicine, etc, etc, etc. No wonder we even fuck and steal their women too.
Even without ever catching one of these Bundestrojaner (read: federal trojans) (autotranslated), you can always redirect all your incoming traffic to some russian Gazprom server. That could lead to diplomatic difficulties if the actual attack attempt would also be redirected. Given, you IP Address would be used, but the initiator of this whole incident would be the state and that would certainly be provable.
I don't think creating a hack to block stuff like this will have any more effect than the actual software itself. I think any trojan will still be semi-effective, just not against anyone who is actually dangerous.
This kind of thing just isn't that hard to avoid. Trojans do work, but generally only against people who are sloppy, or do not have the skills or interest to correctly handle their computer. I have wiped viruses repeatedly off my 70 year old step mother's computer for instance. She repetitively turns off her antivirus software because she thinks the startup logo is ugly. Some people just can't be saved.
There will be people caught who do things, but they will get the crazies who paint stuff on walls, not the nuclear armed agents they are professing to be on the lookout for.
It failed.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Whenever governments want some new power, the major threat is nearly always "Mission Creep". They start off by saying that the new measures will only apply to terror suspects (or whatever) and things will have to be approved etc. A year or so down the line though, once people are used to it, they extend things a little. Then a while later, they do it again. Before you know it, you can end up with a real big brother situation.
An example of this is the criminal genetic database in the UK. Initially it was only for convicted criminals, but there has been mission creep for years and they now keep huge amounts of genetic data, even from people who are completely innocent.
So I don't see a problem as long as they need the court system to grant them a warrant before proceeding.
It's called WGA, they are going into your computer without authorization several times recently, and perhaps all the time, sending back information to Redmond (NSA).
I doubt that there is anyone who works for the government AND can write a proper virus/trojan in Hungary :)
Definitely not one for Linux :p
the following might shade a light ...
"What is striking is that whereas collaborators of the old regime have made careers in high politics in the new Germany almost all the dissident figures of the DDR, even ones like Rainer Eppelmann, who joined the CDU, have faded from the scene, leaving only Markus Meckel, last DDR foreign minister (SPD) and Arnold Vaatz, an old dissident (CDU) as the only critics of the DDR-regime with a chance of winning seats on 18th September.[12] Dr. Merkel represents the politically upwardly mobile, post-1989 class of ex-DDR citizens, who either served the old regime in one of the Bloc parties or were silent and obedient to all outward appearances." ( c.f., emphasis mine)
Thus, one might think that there still is a lot of 'Stasi-thinking' around, which for sure has fruitfully merged with the remnants of 'Gestapo-mind-set'.
CC. (born & living in Germany, at least physically)
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
A terrorist attack with nuclear weapons is certain. The question is no longer whether such an attack could be carried out by terrorists, but when," Schaeuble told the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper in September.[emphasis added]
If the attack is so certain, why haven't we arrested the terrorist(s)? Which is more likely:
Fearmongering for personal political gain only detracts from the real issues surrounding terrorism. You know, things like:
Instead of responding to goons like this, we should instead focus on the fact that other law enforcement officials have been able to conduct successful terrorism investigations without resorting to devices such as these.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana, Spanish born American Philosopher, Poet and Humanist who made important contributions to aesthetics, speculative philosophy and literary criticism. 1863-1952
"Time is nothing; timing is everything."
A government reserves certain rights for itself. They can do things that others can't. For instance, the state can take a life in circumstances that if it were performed by a citizen would be murder. The police can use methods that would be unlawful if a private citizen did them. Even the city water department can assert authority that a non-government authority would never be able to.
For the most part we citizens are aware of the rules that we live under. This is no different in Iran than it is in the United States or Cuba. The problem comes when the power is abused. Will Germany just automatically allow this invasion of privacy or, will they require some sort of probable cause and warrant? Will this process be subject to scrutiny or will it be done under a veil of secrecy?
Isn't it kind of hard to really understand just how invasive this is before you know how you feel about it?
Lets change the scenereo a little bit. Should the state be permitted to spy on someone's computer who they have some evidence is involved in child pornography? Lets say they suspect that they felt that they could uncover an entire ring of pedeophiles if they spied on the suspect's computer; would it be okay then? I think many people would say "I have no problem with that."
It boils down to what protections are in place to prevent abuse. At a minimum, I would expect that investigators would be required to present evidence that meets some mininium standards to justify a warrant before they did this.
We have learned that almost any system is fallable and that someone who is determined to get around the rules will do it but they do not need laws to do this. I'd rather see a system that has rules than none at all. Hopefully a system that has review and oversight so that it is non easy to abuse.
When it comes to security, you have to expect that it's war outside your firewall, and all varieties of people are going to be trying to get in. No one is responsible for your security mistakes except for you. I hate the government, but if they manage to root my system, I'll tip my hat to them. If they manage to root the system of a terrorist, I'll bow in deep respect.
Someone needs to attempt to hack the computers of known terrorists. I know that vigilante justice is trying. I don't know why we would restrict the government from trying too.
Free unix account: freeshell.org
Shouldn't that be:
In Nazi Germany IBM computers kill you.
And that's definitively not funny. States tend to extend their power as much as people let them do so and Germans have several times in history failed to oppose this tendency. I'm saying that as a holder of a German passport. As far as I can see Germany is currently not worse than the USA or the UK, but some politicians in Germany long for the possibilities the US government currently has or even for more.
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
Fred Palnicki. Famous slashdotter, died in the middle of an epic raid with his wow guild. His guildmates try to honor him here, whenever they get the chance.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
"What this case showed us is that they are using laptops, they are using computers, and it would have been very, very helpful to track them down with online searches," said Gerhard Schindler, director of the German Interior Ministry's counter-terrorism bureau.
You can't take the sky from me...
With a warrant, I bet cops can legally do that in USA too. Probably just about any country.
If there's due process, it isn't unusual for courts to grant LE special surveillance privs against a specific suspect.
Note the qualifiers: due process, warrants. The article doesn't say this new authority is an end-run around the usual barriers. (Doesn't say it's not, either.)
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Europe is at least eight years behind the USA on this one. The FBI been installing spyware in people's machines since at least 1999 and a judge ruled it was Ok to do so in 2001.
See: http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2002/01/49455
(Or google for something like "scarfo keylogger")
No sig today...
"Is information gathered in this way admissible?"
In the USA it is: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2001/12/27/fbi-snooping.htm
No sig today...
Governments have "powers" which are granted by the people.
Any government which claims to have "rights" is a dictatorship.
No sig today...
Hi there, This topic was announced a lot of time ago, and at least in Germany, nobody cares about. This topic is over. There was just one crazy politician (Schäuble), that thought doing this USA kind of thing would be great, but I think that he just killed his politician career. An even if the BND (like the CIA in the USA, but they arent evil :) ) is already watching me, I really don't care. Because no Police men has nocked on my door so far :)
As somebody of the CCC (Chaos Computer Club) told to the Spiegel some time ago, this is not even Pratical. If they really want to tap a PC of someone effectively, they will fail at least at the cost of such a operation. It is just nonsense.
Best Regards,
mjander
Maybe a trade-off is best.
Government, make virtully all crimes fully legal. Pornography? Fully legal (except child porn). Drug use/advocacy etctera? Groovy. Copyright infringement? Have at it, mates. And whatever else we can think of.
That way, when searches are conducted for terrorism, that will be the only possible crime that could be found, anyway. Sounds like a good trade-off to me. Government, if you want greater search and seizure powers to prevent terrorism, then trade us for it. Make everything else we do legal.
The MPAA/RIAA won't be happy, but just let 'em know if they won't budge, we're all going to get nuked by terrorists.
Copyright law supports terrorism after all. Imagine that.
If you're concerned about security, just boot one of the Linux live CD distributions instead of booting from hard disk.
"Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen."
But can it cause a suspect's dongle to fall off?
But I run Linux, you insensitive clod.
Obviously (some people in) the German government doesn't have a clue about governing a democratic country. I get so pissed off over these things. COME ON, it is not that hard. To represent the people, all they have to do is turn around the question- Would they want their personal computers to be scanned by other people without their knowledge and approval?
Perhaps all governmental roles - not just presidents - should have a limited term. That way, people in the government would be forced to think about the long-term consequences of their plans, i.e. what happens with their great ideas *after* they return to the society of the common people. If plans will directly backfire on them, they'll have to think twice instead of half before coming up with foolish ideas.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
They are planning the same thing in Austria. What is happening to us?
"... Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones... "
This is so ridiculous. I want to see how are they going to plant a Trojan virus on my Linux system. I mean, what are they going to do? Do they thing they can plant Trojans in the official Debian or Ubuntu repos?
If this law is approved I'm going to do exactly the same thing these people are doing: Use the peoples fear in order to get them to approve things they wont otherwise. So I'm going to start telling everyone that the only way to conserve privacy is to use exclusively 100% free software. I mean you don't know if that fglrx driver contains a government Trojan.
As gillbates said: "The most successful terrorism investigations have involved regular, old-fashioned police work". The las time there was this story about three guy who wanted to fabricate explosives for a "major attack". and the police had been watching them for quite a long time, they actually changed the barrels content for some harmless substance. But the media and Schäuble made a big deal out of it.
For these kind of amateurs you really don't need Trojans because you'll get them with other methods, and you will just end up spying a lot innocent people. And if we are talking about talented terrorist, I don't think they will fall in such a cheap trick like a Trojan.
I fear these kind of laws will never help to prevent a REAL threat, but in two or three year we will be seeing how they start using these mechanisms in order to prevent you from downloading a song or a movie.
Somebody should have tagged this "Slow news this month". This is the same topic that was mentioned in http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/01/1945235.
That said, I'm nonetheless happy that mainstream media seems to slowly pick up this story.
...that you install zee OS on the enclosed CD. Our new, completely free linux distribution, Nazix.
This post inspired by an entry on the old Dave Letterman Top 10 list "Top 10 Names for the Newly Reunified Germany"... Nazichusetts.man, if they done this to hitlars computer we could have avoided the korean war all together!!! :P
Does this seem a little Backassward to anyone else? In order to effectively monitor the computer content the government would have to count on third party companies not removing their spy ware, I understand Germany's reputation for quality and efficiency but it would still be a government agency and in ANY situation with a free market economy government development can't touch private sector talent. In disclosing the name/location/any identifiable data about the program they are leaving vulnerable to both the people who would remove it and the people who would exploit it. This seems like one of those black hole projects that bankrupt government projects. You could make the removal of this software illegal but the penalty would have to be something on par with the crimes they are trying to fight.