As much as I hate to say this, but it looks like MacOS X will be the best chance to get quality midi apps ported over to Linux.
I run a forum for professional musicians, and even within the professional community their is a large outcry for systems other than Windows / Mac.
Windows just suck for a musician as most have little understanding to make these systems stable (it can be done, but ya gotta buy quality components...none of this SoundBlaster shit works for a Professional...the latency is just unacceptable).
Macs are way too expensive, though this is what a good deal of Professionals use (don't tell me that all the musicians you know use windows unless you can supply statistics for their sales...) but even these guys hate fronting for a system that has half the MHz at 2x the price even if they can get their work done far faster (MHz ain't everything folks).
Steinberg is now supporting Be which might be a nice platform for Midi/Multimedia other than the fact it is a closed system and as such has no chance of ever competing with Win/Mac as they've already got the userbase.
Hell, Linux sems the perfect way to go. I've often wished that Hardware Synth manufactures would stop creating proprietary chips and use off the shelf Intel/PPC stuff and build linux systems with extremely low latency. Linux would be perfect for Midi / Softsynth because one could make a distribution that kills anything that is a performace hog and simply does Midi / Audio. Shit, one could even make an embeded version of this for complete stability...
In the meantime, it looks like MacOS X will be the savior for Midi on Linux. As soon as a good deal of people start using this system, companies would be able to port crap over to Linux rather easily. I wouldn't even be supprised if the Linux version was the Prefered platform, with the Mac versions being their for ease of use purposes (If a musician can't stabilize Win, then he's not going to be able to configure Linux...then again I know too many geeks that 'claim' not to be able to stablize apps on Win as well).
hmm...enough hypothesizing...I need to get up and awake. Ya know someone is a geek when the first thing they do is to reach for their laptop before even getting outta bed.
Damn, I've been meaning to se about hacking the code to give me this kinda functionality for a while:(
On the sites I host, I usually have a template that I use with a assload of variations incase someone types crap in wrong, I want them to still get into the machine.
Example: www.*.com ww.*.com w.*.com wwww.*.com
It gets to be a pain. I watch my DNS servers error records to see what people put in and if its a new variation that I haven't seen, I usually update my records with the new one. Having a wildcarded DNS would have made this a lot easier.
Now if I could only apply this feature to my personal server SoniKmatter.com so if they spelled it soniCmatter.com it would send them over to me without having to register another damn domain.
Damn, I should do this anonymously to save the Karma but what the hell.
Maybe this is why open source programming strikes so many of us as more ethical: The geeks are running the show, free of markedroids preventing the rest of us from doing it The Right Way.
This is what ya'll just don't get. The marketdroids are the ones trying to find what the Average Users want. I hate Marketting as much as the next guy (or the next guy that isn't on/.) but they do serve a purpose. Geeks running Open Source is great for those writting for other geeks, but I've never seen an Open Source program that was any way geared towards the every day person. Geeks just don't know how to think in someone elses shoes. They don't understand that someone may not understand the usage of simple geek structures (Just look at my dads face when I tell him it'd be easier just to pipe the output to a text file....nevermind, Ummm just use word and copy and paste...).
Geeks may be ethical, but its because they are only writting software for themselves.
clif
Re:...and if problems are related...
on
NASA Gets Smart
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· Score: 1
whereas a shuttle can throw 24,400 kg. to a 204 km orbit... So weight isn't really a problem. As always with the shuttle, volume is the real limiter.
If I recall, they actually have a few modified shuttle 'thingies' that simply use the booster rockets and strap on the payload sans the orbiter. The wierd thing was that this was called the Shuttle Payload System or some other crap like this as if NASA had intended Shuttle to mean only the booster rocket system, not the big ol' space plane part of it that we normally call the shuttle.
Anyways, check out the images over at NASA and do a search on experimental vehicles and shuttle payload. For all I know, I might have found this originally from a story here (it was something to do with the images from the recently fixed hubble and I was wondering around from there).
clifyt -- half asleep and not sure if he's makin' sense...
Why the hell does everyone think THEY know whats good for the musicians? Im my part time, I run sound design resources for professional musicians (or anyone else that can afford to waste big bucks on that equipment) as well as do my own Music. Every PROFESSIONAL (ie., they are getting payed and not just for playing frat parties) I've talked with seems to have mixed feelings about this all. Some of them use MP3 to get their music out to their audience, but that is their choice how they distribute it, no one elses.
Before one talks about how this is effecting musicians, you better be one or work directly for one.
BTW this stuff is rediculious...I down loaded the software when it came out and I thought to myself, 'Hmmm, I guess it'd be legal for someone to prove they were at a workstation with M$ word on it, therefore MP3.com can legally distribute it to any computer they use now'. Then again, Sun wouldn't complain about someone doing this with StarOffice so I'd be safe (if I actually installed it at work).
Agreed. The users should never be allowed to talk about openly about ejecting or censoring others. That is something even worse than a flame. I run a set of boards as well and we've simply gone to the policy of deleting entire threads (not just closing them down) as a way to eliminate censoring a single individual.
I've never had to remove an individual, but I have censored certain postings of theirs. This is very rare though.
As for Moderators, increasing the # of moderators just means the new moderators will then feel as though they are justified in voting with thier politics./. makes this seem to be acceptable. Ya have more people and the more their are, the more democratic things get to be, so they feel if someone doesn't like their decision, they can moderate it back up.
I've never moderated someone on/. because I disagreed with them (hell sometimes I've begrudgingly moderated them up). You are right, others have to learn this, but few will. I just wish Rob and the boys would go back to a few hundred moderators that they personally selected (v3 of the moderator system I believe...were at v7 or something?). This seemed to be the most fair system.
Remember the net might be democratic, but personal servers don't need to be. Ya come into my house, if I don't like what ya are saying, I can ask ya to be quiet or show ya the door.
AC Says: "I think Xerox should have gotten a bunch of money from Apple after they made it big, and that MS should never have gotten away with what they pulled in the first place."
Xerox did get a bunch of money from apple, and that was before they made it big. I wish people would give up the APPLE STOLE myth that M$ tried to propogate. It was bought and key members of the Xerox staff even worked on the new one as it was floundering as Parc.
So does anyone know if this technology has been used to reappropriate others Ad Space? As a business owner, I'd be up in arms if someone decided to film outside my office and thus reappropriated billboard space I payed good money for. To me, it would be like someone reappropriating content from a piece of my software to advertise their own adgenda...look at the problems Real is having because someone decided to change the advertisement in their free software (free as in it doesn't charge ya to download and thus you are paying for it with your eyeballs).
To me, this is nothing more than theft. If you don't want my advertising don't film near it. If you don't like my advertisments in software, don't use my software.
Having said all this, I do very little in the way of advertising and usually the whole concept sickens me, still if someone pays for something it cannot and should not be taken or edited without their permision (hmmm...maybe I'll rent a sign outside my office and GPL it for non-commercial work, but require a $50k licensing fee for every other occurance).
There's always a None of the Above option. I don't understand why more people don't know this. The candidate that wins has to get a majority of the votes. This means 50%. Now, technically Clinton didn't get the majority vote (was it the first or second term...can't remember) but he did get the majority of the Electoral Votes.
The way I was taught was this, if their is an election where none of the candidates get the majority of the votes, the election has to be rerun, and technically with different candidates (though I don't think anyone would even pay attention to this detail if it happened). If enough people go in and pull the damn lever but not punch any candidates, ya get counted as one of the electorate but no one gets your vote. If enough people did this, no one would get the majority.
In the last two elections, I've voted for one person out of the 20 or so elected offices I could have voted for. If I don't know about someone I don't just go the party line, I just don't vote for them...
Traditional Journalist integrity comes with age and size. Its cool when you have a small weekly alternative like most bigger US cities have...I use to believe/. was the digital equivelent of these alternatives. The main difference is that as the readerships of these alternatives grow, the only way they survive is to live off the facts and journalistic integrity far greater than the mainstream press.
What we have here is just the opposite. Over the last several months, starting with Katz and as the new 'reporters' are added on, these journalists have been trying to make their name by stiring up controversy. While this may be a stepping stone for these people, this is slowly turning into the digital equivelent of the Enquirer.
I have been a reader of this site for several years under several aliases. I've seen if go from informative and the 'New Wired' to the 'Old Wired' with an XFiles / I got beat up as a kid / I'm getting beaten up now twist.
Slashdot was the Wired without the glitz, the advertisments, and the BS. Slashdot is now, all glitz no substance: I find myself skimming/. just for the articles, ignoring almost all editorial anymore and simply clicking on the links. More often than not, I go back to wired and get a far more journalistic picture of whats going on than Roblimo or others seem to want to give you.
Lastly, because of the Katz effect (was he fired from Wired, I wonder) the readership of/. has dropped to the assumed midteens. He was once a damn fine journalist with articles like his last months Epcot stories. Others are way off the mark, reactionary and inciteful. In a few private messages I've sent him, his response was shooting from the hip trite cliches about BigBrother without a real idea of what he was talking about. Those of us in the fields that he seems to be an instant expert in know the only research he's done, or at the very least has choosen to alude to, we're from emails sent to him by disallusioned teens.
Because of people like him,/. has brought in a large midteen population. Yes, these were always here, but one could tell the averge level of intelligence in the posters has declined. I have always welcomed the oppinion of others. I'm just sick of reading every other article about the pain of High School. I was a geek in High School. I won the first Computer Award for my school, after more or less teaching the first computer course as my teacher was clueless towards programming (she was however the one that fought to have courses, as well as our brand new Apple IIes). And yes, I got beat up or at the very least attempts were made, as any good geek, I took several years of martial arts. Guess what, this is life...people of small intelligence resort to violence when their little brains give away, and you're not the only ones being singled out, though ya do make yourself an attractive target. I'm just sick of hearing all the Hellmouth crap. Places like/. are just fueling the fire for these disallusioned teens to feel more disallusioned and more justified in their actions.
I've often thought about 'cancelling my subscription' to/. over the last few months. I keep loggin back on, and doing my daily metamoderation (my reg mod doesn't seem to work anymore...maybe I got metamoded out of it?) hoping that the quality starts the steep slope up again to where it once peaked. Unfortunately, by staying here, I have been fueling the flames just as much as anyone of the 'Journalists' here.
We use these types of security all the time at the university I work. The system we use is the Safeword Card. Again, it looks like a calculator, but ya are prompted for a challenge, which ya type in and then return to the computer.
These are really nice, until ya realize almost everyone I know keeps their safeword card in their desk with their pin # written on them. I've learned a long time ago, physical security is as bad or worse than software security. With software security, the only one that is going to get my records is some tiwaneese hacker that won't be able to do much with them (ie., I've canceled CCs because of theft and will do so again).
Physical security like this allows for the feeling of security (ie., its in my office...no ones going to break into my office) but is infact far less insecure because most of those ya have to really worry about will then have an easier access to my files.
Of course it depends on what you are programming, though I'd have to disagree with you on real world programming.
If its Quick and Dirty the real world uses Visual Basic. Who cares if it's slow when the slowest desktop I have to support is a PII 300. We've got far too much power on the desktop. I can get a PII 300 Celery MB for just over $100, so my software costs more than the hardware...
VB is also fast enough for most webapplications, so perl is out of the question. I use Perl for NT on a few apps we may convert over to a mainfram platform, but most are not going to deal with perl in the real world.
Java...no one uses this if they want stable applications. This will change, but not soon. If I want a GUI I use the Web as the front end and my server as the application host. If ya want it standalone, use VB as a front end and C as the back end. I use to do this with Hypercard on the Mac,and ya'd have a easy to change GUI as well as a fast back end.
If ya want only speed, and a hell of a long programming time, go C or C++.
If ya want a decent GUI as well as a fast backend and ya want RAD where it is most applicable, go with the hybrid approach. As most of my C stuff is portable, I'm actually thinking of learning the KDE toolbox one of these days and using that as the front end on Linux (some one needs to port this to Win and the Mac...make my job easier:)
Looks like others can't figure out myths either. I keep my desktop machines up all the time. Crashes happen, but 24 to 48 hours??? Ya gots to be a moron if ya can't figure out how to get that kinda up time. My personal machine gets about 4 or 5 weeks before rebooting, and thats because I reconfigure stuff for one of my personal webservers...yeah yeah, I can reconfig my linux server with out powering down as well.
Servers on the other hand are usually up for a few months at a time. I was sad when my MO Jukebox / SQL Server machine died in april...its been up since replacing the HD April 19th. The problem is that most M$ servers are run by secretaries and others that think having a MCSE means they know shit. Remember ya'll, once ya make linux easy enough for the general public to handle, these are going to be the same people that admin these boxes as well and yer gonna find ya have a whole slew of problems ya never knew existed...
Right on the money. Even these suck compared to the mac sound tools available, except for Nuendo (which I believe it for NT and BeOS, or will be soon). This is why most (professional) musicians use the Mac. This is changing and changing rapidly. Sound Forge is getting better, though I still don't like the UI as it seems it was designed by geeks for geeks (hmmm...then again, I know one of the guys that use to work there...) Certain other programs on the PC side are making inroads, like Acid (again by the makers of SF). Acid kicks ass as a DJ Tool, and it sucks I have to run in under emulation on the mac:(
Cooledit is the place to start if yer gonna emulate a good freeware OS sound soft in Linux. It needs alot of work before it would be what I consider professional status, though most of that is in UI and product flow type stuff (its got batch processing I believe...again, geek logic not sound/musician logic).
There are a few softs that run on Linux natively that would be perfect for a front end and other utilities. CSound would be a good start as I beleive it is open and could use a real interface. Even if ya killed most of the really cool things about it (like the hard to use physical modeling stuff) and made it an all purpose sound editor. I think KeyKit is also Linux native, though I can't remember if this is Midi oriented or sound, and finally aRts which looks like a nice replacement for those of us that use Reaktor and other softsynths for sound design (been meaning to load that up on my Linux machine, but not sure if the hardware is fast enough).
So the starting points are out there, but no ones developed them enough that those who would find them to be of the most use can use them.
Ya know what I hate more than Christian Bashing is people who claim to be Christians who bash others. I wish people would read their fucking bible and they'd know they don't recogize the same God as I do. I consider myself a Christian, and a pretty damn tolerant one.
The fact is, most who say they are Christians are infact not. People heard the Jesse V. interview and thought he was bashing Christianity, he was bashing Organized Religion which is completely different. I've alwas felt the best form of Christianity is the least organized versions of it...this way ya don't get a bunch of dumb asses that hypothesize one thing means something that it doesn't and then tries to make their own religion based on this.
The best example I have of this was when I was dating one very cute Pentacostal girl...talk about a religion. The preacher got up and started talkin' bout evolution. He claimed that for the white man there was no evolution but for all other races, there was because they were not based on God (granted this was a more progressive church:) His example was to look at a black man and then look at a monkey and ya could see it plain as day. EVIL-oution he'd shout, EVIL-oution. I would have left right then and there, but I was curious to see how much ignorance one man could spew.
Having said this I still consider myself a Christian and I consider evolution to be the most viable theory on how man was created, but something had to start the chain of events that caused this all to take place. Some of us actually are open minded and pay attention to science, but a good deal of us let others shape our oppinions and rarely even read our own books let alone something that might disuade ya. Don't judge all Christians as of one mind.
If ya wanna read the rhetoric of one I'd call a real Christian, check out the liner notes on any Moby album, don't listen to the hypocrites in the pulpits and those who claim to be one just because it gets them elected As a side note...I wonder if GWBush has the same ideas on Abortion as his father did...oh wait those all changed once he was asked to be Regan's VP. I may not have agreed with the Ronald, but at least the man was never a hypocite.
Aargh, the geek mindset. If you want a GUI go with the mac mindset...if you want geek, stick with your CLI. Then again, the Mac mindset gets me pretty bothered at times as well. The average user types with one hand and mouses with the other. I personally would be very happy with the focus on cancel, but unlike macs have the ability to change the focus of the widget to OK with the tab, as is the case on windows. The problem is ya can't select system widgets (or at least as a standard) on the mac. But back to HI stuff...what works for us, may not work for others. Computers were designed so people can get work done in the most efficient ways possible. 10-20-30 years from now, their will be no need for people like us (slashdotters in general) and all those visual programming languages we all hate will be our equivelent of Assembly later on.
Again, remember folks we are not the ones that ya need to design GUIs for and should not be used as any benchmarking. Read books on the subject (Apple's User Interface Guidlines is a start...not sure if its even mentioned in the article as I didn't read it). I've spent the last 5 years doing little but creating testing systems for humans...part of this is making sure the interface is obvious to the student and making sure one forgets he/she is in a computing environment. I nearly got violent about a year back when the university decided to use a committee to 'help me' design these things.
Few people understand Human Interface theory, even less implement it. If the KDE boys are really that interested in making things more usable, they need to designate one person the HI leader and anything they say goes...no frigin committees nothing. Make sure this person is studied in both the arts and sciences behind this technology. Yeah, and send him/her to a few courses dealing wih the Americans with Disabilities Act (or what ever is prevelant in yer country) because once Linux hits the desktop in any significant way, yer gonna want this stuff in there. Companies always forget about the disabled as its not very profitable for them (ie., hasn't apple the company with the largest corporate presence in this area dropped to maybe 10 people over the last few Jobs years...) Why should Linux...
This is why most of these systems depend on whats known as the Good Faith Essay. If you write in complete sentences, show a bit of style and can write a bit more gramatically correct than most of my stream of where my fingers hit the freekin' keys conciousness, the keywords may be all ya need to get a good score. This is one of the reasons companies like ETS still employee at least a 1:1 ratio of human raters to computer raters. Ya need a content checker right now or at least someone to quickly scan to see that you ain't just full of crap. This is one of the things I get so upset about when I'm demonstrating our system (TruJudges and IUPUIs collaboration on PEG) somewhere and people think of it as a way to keep them from doing any work what so ever...no, it probably makes it harder in some aspects. People have to learn to look at these things as tools, nothing more. Computers have really never simplified any work, it just helps us do more at once. Teachers are going to get more and more students in their classrooms and their little we can do about it. Politicians on both sides of the isle will never do anything about this situation...before ya blame them, ask who elected them and why ya wanted them to vote against the latest tax hike. blah clif
Good call:) I'm a horrid speller and type at the speed of light...too much real work to proof read slashdot shtuff. Then again, I've now seen myself quoted in a few magazines so I'm probably doing myself a friggin' disservice by not proofing. Doh!
BTW Almost forgot...damn why doesn't slasdot allow one to go back and edit articles at a later time.
If ya think yer not already getting graded by computers and algorythms, yer sorely mistaken. I had one teacher at a High School raving about how great this system was, and was actually using it as a gradebook app for her class, grading every assignment, but using Project Essay Grader as a backup. It turns out she only looked at a page long essage for about 30 seconds before assigning a grade and pressing next.
Turns out she was only looking for stylistic differences in the essays, like did ya indent the paragraphs and the paragraphs of a certain size and when I had someone else rate these essays, they were right on the mark with what the others were giving them. Talk about bio-algorythmetic grading. Easy to figure out what she was doing, but very robot like as well...
I work for the Testing Center at IUPUI (Indiana University Purdue University Indianapolis) we've been working with technology that does alot of the same things as IAE and Landauers work. We use something called the Project Essay Grader (PEG) and unlike Landauer, we don't make any fanciful claims as to what this stuff does or doesn't do. It grades papers and writting styles and nothing more.
We've been targetting this at the Indianapolis Public Schools for the last few years as well as trying to figure out uses of this for College entrance exams...along the way, we've built some damn good models for essay grading as well.
Here are the big plans we have for this :
Teachers have way too many papers to grade each and every day. The only way one learns is from writting...the years I've spent as a lit major (one of these days I'll finish that degree, but I'm geeking for a while) has taught me, classroom instruction means nothing. Ya need someone forcing ya to write and giving constructive criticisms of your work. Teachers don't have the time to grade papers, and if they do, they don't have time for a social life (ya wonder why most of them are angry and bitter).
With this software, we were actually paying teachers to grade about 3 essays (for model building purposes) and after that, they could use our grading software free of charge. What does this do for them? Well they probably had to grade the essays to begin with, and they probably had far more than 3 to deal with. Now they can assign alot more papers to the students and grade only a random sampling of them or check the ones the computer spits back out as invalid.
I wouldn't want any friggin' robot grading my paper or anyon elses, but if ya don't know if this is going to be read by a teacher or P.E.G. your gonna try harder than if ya just thought the teacher was gonna half ass it or ya thought that no person would ever read it. This was ya are forced to write, ya still get criticisms and ultimately, you should only be graded on those essays the teacher has seen and read.
The student also gets advantages from this, a student can ultimately run their own essay through the system before it ever reaches the teacher. Its not entirely accurate, much the same way that the grammer checker in Word isn't (well not much the same way cause this actually works). Either way, both the student and the teacher have advantages from using this software.
Our second usage of the PEG software comes from College Placement Exams. I design tests for a living and most of them are for helping a student choose the classes they need...very few of these are actually used to exclude students from college, but to make sure that they are in the levels they need to be. Its supprising how many Johnnys and Janeys come into school thinking they have the skills it takes to succeed and fall flat on their face. US High Schools suck and they suck big time in the state I live...if it doesn't have a basketball on the end of it, we ain't funding it. I get complaints all the time 'bout student testing and how it ain't an accurate reflection of the students actual knowledge (ie., if they've taken AP Calc, why can't they figure out simple algebra equations...) Well the test isn't about all that...College Councellors need to do their jobs as well, but most don't have the time either. These entrance exams are a help, but they are not always 100% accurate. They can give ya an aproximation of what ya know or don't know, but thats 'bout it. We're just about trying to make sure that students succeed.
We got alot of other projects going on with essay grading (as well as other testing shtuff) and its not all about making ya out to be just another #. Again, unlike Landauer's work we don't claim to do everything nor do we even claim that our software understands the essay ie., ya could write gibberish if ya wanted to, but it'd have to be nonsense on par with something like Jabberwocky to get a good score.
If any one is interested in this stuff, please feel free to email me personally, I can either field the call or pass it along to my boss Dr. Mark Shermis or the creator, Dr. Ellis Page - TruJudge Inc. and his head programmer Matt Lavoie. Right now, I've just killed the PEG demo on my site as my computer is being used for a whole host of other things and I don't want it/.ed (ie., the software can rate 1500 essays an hour but thats batch mode...it takes about a minute for every batch to start up even if its a batch of ONE). If ya want access to the demo, I can give ya a temp password.
Clif Marsiglio Mgr., Development - IUPUI Testing Center 317.274.2897 - ccmarsig@iupui.edu
Well considering those statements were attributed to me, I should say you don't know what the hell you are talking 'bout. Friggin geeks, for the most part, simply like like linux because it makes ya stand out about the rest of the croud and makes ya look special. I use it because I need file servers and webservers and don't feel like paying the damn bills for another NT box nor do I wanna give up my kick ass Compaq 486 server with all its hardware advantage when I know my boss is going to say "Why can't we use a Deskpro for the Server instead of the Proliant 1600 ya keep asking for??? Mine works just fine and was alot cheaper than that 486." The sad part is the 1600 is at the bottom of my list. The linux box works fine even though it is a 486...
I still can't imaging why anyone would want one of these for there desktop though.
As for the Mac...1) There are several free TCP utilities. The common person doesn't need ping, nor would they be able to understand the crap. Most users simply type in the parameters as directed by the instructions and go at it. If it doesn't work, they do it again...usually its a user error.
1a) The monochrome desktop??? what MacSE have you been using??? Elegant? Unlike this NT box I'm on now, the UI is light years ahead of anything else in the game. The only things that are not elegant are things like windowshade (which is technically not a default standard) where ya can click the top of the menubar to hide the majority of the window.
2) Rename grep to regexp-filter??? Are you nuts? every geek remembers grep means get regular expression, but if you said those words to a macoid, they won't know what you are talking about. Neither would a Wintel biggot for that matter. Search, I will give ya, but it would have to be far easier to use than it is now...
Lastly, Apple is sueing the dumbasses that think they can get away with using apple as their marketting department as well as their research and design wing.
OK, ya'll got upset when Amazon was posting private information about the most popular books being bought at different companies (which IMHO is kinda cool, but thats not the point) and how that was bad...Slashdot goes ahead and posts whats being used at M$ (again, I don't think this is bad either).
Why isn't there some sort of policy statment that says 'Tech support will not be used to ridicule or even comment on the specifics of others or the companies.' I know for one, I don't tell the specifics or even generalities of those I have to support as it just ain't right. Then again, we're talkin' bout M$ here so I guess all rules get thrown out the windows, eh?
it was happening a few years back at Eli Lilly in Indianapolis. A few friends of mine got to keep all the Quadra's they could find. Too bad their pretty much worthless now except as DNS Servers or other such low volume type servers. Until recently, I used one of these as my main Midi box for my synths, but my silver and purple Powerbook 140 looked so much cooler. The funny thing is I hear several departments are going back to using these things once again after their experiment of only having to support one OS didn't work out for some types of work...
Slashdot Mirror
As much as I hate to say this, but it looks like MacOS X will be the best chance to get quality midi apps ported over to Linux.
I run a forum for professional musicians, and even within the professional community their is a large outcry for systems other than Windows / Mac.
Windows just suck for a musician as most have little understanding to make these systems stable (it can be done, but ya gotta buy quality components...none of this SoundBlaster shit works for a Professional...the latency is just unacceptable).
Macs are way too expensive, though this is what a good deal of Professionals use (don't tell me that all the musicians you know use windows unless you can supply statistics for their sales...) but even these guys hate fronting for a system that has half the MHz at 2x the price even if they can get their work done far faster (MHz ain't everything folks).
Steinberg is now supporting Be which might be a nice platform for Midi/Multimedia other than the fact it is a closed system and as such has no chance of ever competing with Win/Mac as they've already got the userbase.
Hell, Linux sems the perfect way to go. I've often wished that Hardware Synth manufactures would stop creating proprietary chips and use off the shelf Intel/PPC stuff and build linux systems with extremely low latency. Linux would be perfect for Midi / Softsynth because one could make a distribution that kills anything that is a performace hog and simply does Midi / Audio. Shit, one could even make an embeded version of this for complete stability...
In the meantime, it looks like MacOS X will be the savior for Midi on Linux. As soon as a good deal of people start using this system, companies would be able to port crap over to Linux rather easily. I wouldn't even be supprised if the Linux version was the Prefered platform, with the Mac versions being their for ease of use purposes (If a musician can't stabilize Win, then he's not going to be able to configure Linux...then again I know too many geeks that 'claim' not to be able to stablize apps on Win as well).
hmm...enough hypothesizing...I need to get up and awake. Ya know someone is a geek when the first thing they do is to reach for their laptop before even getting outta bed.
clif
Damn, I've been meaning to se about hacking the code to give me this kinda functionality for a while :(
On the sites I host, I usually have a template that I use with a assload of variations incase someone types crap in wrong, I want them to still get into the machine.
Example:
www.*.com ww.*.com w.*.com wwww.*.com
It gets to be a pain. I watch my DNS servers error records to see what people put in and if its a new variation that I haven't seen, I usually update my records with the new one. Having a wildcarded DNS would have made this a lot easier.
Now if I could only apply this feature to my personal server SoniKmatter.com so if they spelled it soniCmatter.com it would send them over to me without having to register another damn domain.
clif marsiglo
This is what ya'll just don't get. The marketdroids are the ones trying to find what the Average Users want. I hate Marketting as much as the next guy (or the next guy that isn't on
Geeks may be ethical, but its because they are only writting software for themselves.
clif
whereas a shuttle can throw 24,400 kg. to a 204 km orbit... So weight isn't really a problem. As always with the shuttle, volume is the real limiter.
If I recall, they actually have a few modified shuttle 'thingies' that simply use the booster rockets and strap on the payload sans the orbiter. The wierd thing was that this was called the Shuttle Payload System or some other crap like this as if NASA had intended Shuttle to mean only the booster rocket system, not the big ol' space plane part of it that we normally call the shuttle.
Anyways, check out the images over at NASA and do a search on experimental vehicles and shuttle payload. For all I know, I might have found this originally from a story here (it was something to do with the images from the recently fixed hubble and I was wondering around from there).
clifyt -- half asleep and not sure if he's makin' sense...
Why the hell does everyone think THEY know whats good for the musicians? Im my part time, I run sound design resources for professional musicians (or anyone else that can afford to waste big bucks on that equipment) as well as do my own Music. Every PROFESSIONAL (ie., they are getting payed and not just for playing frat parties) I've talked with seems to have mixed feelings about this all. Some of them use MP3 to get their music out to their audience, but that is their choice how they distribute it, no one elses.
Before one talks about how this is effecting musicians, you better be one or work directly for one.
BTW this stuff is rediculious...I down loaded the software when it came out and I thought to myself, 'Hmmm, I guess it'd be legal for someone to prove they were at a workstation with M$ word on it, therefore MP3.com can legally distribute it to any computer they use now'. Then again, Sun wouldn't complain about someone doing this with StarOffice so I'd be safe (if I actually installed it at work).
clif
Agreed. The users should never be allowed to talk about openly about ejecting or censoring others. That is something even worse than a flame. I run a set of boards as well and we've simply gone to the policy of deleting entire threads (not just closing them down) as a way to eliminate censoring a single individual.
/. makes this seem to be acceptable. Ya have more people and the more their are, the more democratic things get to be, so they feel if someone doesn't like their decision, they can moderate it back up.
/. because I disagreed with them (hell sometimes I've begrudgingly moderated them up). You are right, others have to learn this, but few will. I just wish Rob and the boys would go back to a few hundred moderators that they personally selected (v3 of the moderator system I believe...were at v7 or something?). This seemed to be the most fair system.
I've never had to remove an individual, but I have censored certain postings of theirs. This is very rare though.
As for Moderators, increasing the # of moderators just means the new moderators will then feel as though they are justified in voting with thier politics.
I've never moderated someone on
Remember the net might be democratic, but personal servers don't need to be. Ya come into my house, if I don't like what ya are saying, I can ask ya to be quiet or show ya the door.
clif
AC Says: "I think Xerox should have gotten a bunch of money from Apple after they made it big, and that MS should never have gotten away with what they pulled in the first place."
Xerox did get a bunch of money from apple, and that was before they made it big. I wish people would give up the APPLE STOLE myth that M$ tried to propogate. It was bought and key members of the Xerox staff even worked on the new one as it was floundering as Parc.
damn...probably redundant...
clif
So does anyone know if this technology has been used to reappropriate others Ad Space? As a business owner, I'd be up in arms if someone decided to film outside my office and thus reappropriated billboard space I payed good money for. To me, it would be like someone reappropriating content from a piece of my software to advertise their own adgenda...look at the problems Real is having because someone decided to change the advertisement in their free software (free as in it doesn't charge ya to download and thus you are paying for it with your eyeballs).
To me, this is nothing more than theft. If you don't want my advertising don't film near it. If you don't like my advertisments in software, don't use my software.
Having said all this, I do very little in the way of advertising and usually the whole concept sickens me, still if someone pays for something it cannot and should not be taken or edited without their permision (hmmm...maybe I'll rent a sign outside my office and GPL it for non-commercial work, but require a $50k licensing fee for every other occurance).
blah
clif
There's always a None of the Above option. I don't understand why more people don't know this. The candidate that wins has to get a majority of the votes. This means 50%. Now, technically Clinton didn't get the majority vote (was it the first or second term...can't remember) but he did get the majority of the Electoral Votes.
The way I was taught was this, if their is an election where none of the candidates get the majority of the votes, the election has to be rerun, and technically with different candidates (though I don't think anyone would even pay attention to this detail if it happened). If enough people go in and pull the damn lever but not punch any candidates, ya get counted as one of the electorate but no one gets your vote. If enough people did this, no one would get the majority.
In the last two elections, I've voted for one person out of the 20 or so elected offices I could have voted for. If I don't know about someone I don't just go the party line, I just don't vote for them...
blah
clif
Traditional Journalist integrity comes with age and size. Its cool when you have a small weekly alternative like most bigger US cities have...I use to believe /. was the digital equivelent of these alternatives. The main difference is that as the readerships of these alternatives grow, the only way they survive is to live off the facts and journalistic integrity far greater than the mainstream press.
/. just for the articles, ignoring almost all editorial anymore and simply clicking on the links. More often than not, I go back to wired and get a far more journalistic picture of whats going on than Roblimo or others seem to want to give you.
/. has dropped to the assumed midteens. He was once a damn fine journalist with articles like his last months Epcot stories. Others are way off the mark, reactionary and inciteful. In a few private messages I've sent him, his response was shooting from the hip trite cliches about BigBrother without a real idea of what he was talking about. Those of us in the fields that he seems to be an instant expert in know the only research he's done, or at the very least has choosen to alude to, we're from emails sent to him by disallusioned teens.
/. has brought in a large midteen population. Yes, these were always here, but one could tell the averge level of intelligence in the posters has declined. I have always welcomed the oppinion of others. I'm just sick of reading every other article about the pain of High School. I was a geek in High School. I won the first Computer Award for my school, after more or less teaching the first computer course as my teacher was clueless towards programming (she was however the one that fought to have courses, as well as our brand new Apple IIes). And yes, I got beat up or at the very least attempts were made, as any good geek, I took several years of martial arts. Guess what, this is life...people of small intelligence resort to violence when their little brains give away, and you're not the only ones being singled out, though ya do make yourself an attractive target. I'm just sick of hearing all the Hellmouth crap. Places like /. are just fueling the fire for these disallusioned teens to feel more disallusioned and more justified in their actions.
/. over the last few months. I keep loggin back on, and doing my daily metamoderation (my reg mod doesn't seem to work anymore...maybe I got metamoded out of it?) hoping that the quality starts the steep slope up again to where it once peaked. Unfortunately, by staying here, I have been fueling the flames just as much as anyone of the 'Journalists' here.
What we have here is just the opposite. Over the last several months, starting with Katz and as the new 'reporters' are added on, these journalists have been trying to make their name by stiring up controversy. While this may be a stepping stone for these people, this is slowly turning into the digital equivelent of the Enquirer.
I have been a reader of this site for several years under several aliases. I've seen if go from informative and the 'New Wired' to the 'Old Wired' with an XFiles / I got beat up as a kid / I'm getting beaten up now twist.
Slashdot was the Wired without the glitz, the advertisments, and the BS. Slashdot is now, all glitz no substance: I find myself skimming
Lastly, because of the Katz effect (was he fired from Wired, I wonder) the readership of
Because of people like him,
I've often thought about 'cancelling my subscription' to
clif
We use these types of security all the time at the university I work. The system we use is the Safeword Card. Again, it looks like a calculator, but ya are prompted for a challenge, which ya type in and then return to the computer.
These are really nice, until ya realize almost everyone I know keeps their safeword card in their desk with their pin # written on them. I've learned a long time ago, physical security is as bad or worse than software security. With software security, the only one that is going to get my records is some tiwaneese hacker that won't be able to do much with them (ie., I've canceled CCs because of theft and will do so again).
Physical security like this allows for the feeling of security (ie., its in my office...no ones going to break into my office) but is infact far less insecure because most of those ya have to really worry about will then have an easier access to my files.
blah
clif
Of course it depends on what you are programming, though I'd have to disagree with you on real world programming.
:)
If its Quick and Dirty the real world uses Visual Basic. Who cares if it's slow when the slowest desktop I have to support is a PII 300. We've got far too much power on the desktop. I can get a PII 300 Celery MB for just over $100, so my software costs more than the hardware...
VB is also fast enough for most webapplications, so perl is out of the question. I use Perl for NT on a few apps we may convert over to a mainfram platform, but most are not going to deal with perl in the real world.
Java...no one uses this if they want stable applications. This will change, but not soon. If I want a GUI I use the Web as the front end and my server as the application host. If ya want it standalone, use VB as a front end and C as the back end. I use to do this with Hypercard on the Mac,and ya'd have a easy to change GUI as well as a fast back end.
If ya want only speed, and a hell of a long programming time, go C or C++.
If ya want a decent GUI as well as a fast backend and ya want RAD where it is most applicable, go with the hybrid approach. As most of my C stuff is portable, I'm actually thinking of learning the KDE toolbox one of these days and using that as the front end on Linux (some one needs to port this to Win and the Mac...make my job easier
clif
Doesn't anyone ever read slashdot anymore, or is everyone here just to try to be heard...
l/p: cipherpunk
has been for quite some time and is always mentioned here. I think the usual first post kiddies need to post this on any nyt articles...
clif
Looks like others can't figure out myths either. I keep my desktop machines up all the time. Crashes happen, but 24 to 48 hours??? Ya gots to be a moron if ya can't figure out how to get that kinda up time. My personal machine gets about 4 or 5 weeks before rebooting, and thats because I reconfigure stuff for one of my personal webservers...yeah yeah, I can reconfig my linux server with out powering down as well.
Servers on the other hand are usually up for a few months at a time. I was sad when my MO Jukebox / SQL Server machine died in april...its been up since replacing the HD April 19th. The problem is that most M$ servers are run by secretaries and others that think having a MCSE means they know shit. Remember ya'll, once ya make linux easy enough for the general public to handle, these are going to be the same people that admin these boxes as well and yer gonna find ya have a whole slew of problems ya never knew existed...
clif
Right on the money. Even these suck compared to the mac sound tools available, except for Nuendo (which I believe it for NT and BeOS, or will be soon). This is why most (professional) musicians use the Mac. This is changing and changing rapidly. Sound Forge is getting better, though I still don't like the UI as it seems it was designed by geeks for geeks (hmmm...then again, I know one of the guys that use to work there...) Certain other programs on the PC side are making inroads, like Acid (again by the makers of SF). Acid kicks ass as a DJ Tool, and it sucks I have to run in under emulation on the mac :(
Cooledit is the place to start if yer gonna emulate a good freeware OS sound soft in Linux. It needs alot of work before it would be what I consider professional status, though most of that is in UI and product flow type stuff (its got batch processing I believe...again, geek logic not sound/musician logic).
There are a few softs that run on Linux natively that would be perfect for a front end and other utilities. CSound would be a good start as I beleive it is open and could use a real interface. Even if ya killed most of the really cool things about it (like the hard to use physical modeling stuff) and made it an all purpose sound editor. I think KeyKit is also Linux native, though I can't remember if this is Midi oriented or sound, and finally aRts which looks like a nice replacement for those of us that use Reaktor and other softsynths for sound design (been meaning to load that up on my Linux machine, but not sure if the hardware is fast enough).
So the starting points are out there, but no ones developed them enough that those who would find them to be of the most use can use them.
damn...meeting time...gots ta run...
clif
I love that episode where the little sister is trying to get raj into trouble. That was a classic.
clif
Ya know what I hate more than Christian Bashing is people who claim to be Christians who bash others. I wish people would read their fucking bible and they'd know they don't recogize the same God as I do. I consider myself a Christian, and a pretty damn tolerant one.
:) His example was to look at a black man and then look at a monkey and ya could see it plain as day. EVIL-oution he'd shout, EVIL-oution. I would have left right then and there, but I was curious to see how much ignorance one man could spew.
The fact is, most who say they are Christians are infact not. People heard the Jesse V. interview and thought he was bashing Christianity, he was bashing Organized Religion which is completely different. I've alwas felt the best form of Christianity is the least organized versions of it...this way ya don't get a bunch of dumb asses that hypothesize one thing means something that it doesn't and then tries to make their own religion based on this.
The best example I have of this was when I was dating one very cute Pentacostal girl...talk about a religion. The preacher got up and started talkin' bout evolution. He claimed that for the white man there was no evolution but for all other races, there was because they were not based on God (granted this was a more progressive church
Having said this I still consider myself a Christian and I consider evolution to be the most viable theory on how man was created, but something had to start the chain of events that caused this all to take place. Some of us actually are open minded and pay attention to science, but a good deal of us let others shape our oppinions and rarely even read our own books let alone something that might disuade ya. Don't judge all Christians as of one mind.
If ya wanna read the rhetoric of one I'd call a real Christian, check out the liner notes on any Moby album, don't listen to the hypocrites in the pulpits and those who claim to be one just because it gets them elected As a side note...I wonder if GWBush has the same ideas on Abortion as his father did...oh wait those all changed once he was asked to be Regan's VP. I may not have agreed with the Ronald, but at least the man was never a hypocite.
blah
clif
Aargh, the geek mindset. If you want a GUI go with the mac mindset...if you want geek, stick with your CLI. Then again, the Mac mindset gets me pretty bothered at times as well. The average user types with one hand and mouses with the other. I personally would be very happy with the focus on cancel, but unlike macs have the ability to change the focus of the widget to OK with the tab, as is the case on windows. The problem is ya can't select system widgets (or at least as a standard) on the mac. But back to HI stuff...what works for us, may not work for others. Computers were designed so people can get work done in the most efficient ways possible. 10-20-30 years from now, their will be no need for people like us (slashdotters in general) and all those visual programming languages we all hate will be our equivelent of Assembly later on.
Again, remember folks we are not the ones that ya need to design GUIs for and should not be used as any benchmarking. Read books on the subject (Apple's User Interface Guidlines is a start...not sure if its even mentioned in the article as I didn't read it). I've spent the last 5 years doing little but creating testing systems for humans...part of this is making sure the interface is obvious to the student and making sure one forgets he/she is in a computing environment. I nearly got violent about a year back when the university decided to use a committee to 'help me' design these things.
Few people understand Human Interface theory, even less implement it. If the KDE boys are really that interested in making things more usable, they need to designate one person the HI leader and anything they say goes...no frigin committees nothing. Make sure this person is studied in both the arts and sciences behind this technology. Yeah, and send him/her to a few courses dealing wih the Americans with Disabilities Act (or what ever is prevelant in yer country) because once Linux hits the desktop in any significant way, yer gonna want this stuff in there. Companies always forget about the disabled as its not very profitable for them (ie., hasn't apple the company with the largest corporate presence in this area dropped to maybe 10 people over the last few Jobs years...) Why should Linux...
blah
clif
This is why most of these systems depend on whats known as the Good Faith Essay. If you write in complete sentences, show a bit of style and can write a bit more gramatically correct than most of my stream of where my fingers hit the freekin' keys conciousness, the keywords may be all ya need to get a good score. This is one of the reasons companies like ETS still employee at least a 1:1 ratio of human raters to computer raters. Ya need a content checker right now or at least someone to quickly scan to see that you ain't just full of crap. This is one of the things I get so upset about when I'm demonstrating our system (TruJudges and IUPUIs collaboration on PEG) somewhere and people think of it as a way to keep them from doing any work what so ever...no, it probably makes it harder in some aspects. People have to learn to look at these things as tools, nothing more. Computers have really never simplified any work, it just helps us do more at once. Teachers are going to get more and more students in their classrooms and their little we can do about it. Politicians on both sides of the isle will never do anything about this situation...before ya blame them, ask who elected them and why ya wanted them to vote against the latest tax hike. blah clif
Good call :) I'm a horrid speller and type at the speed of light...too much real work to proof read slashdot shtuff. Then again, I've now seen myself quoted in a few magazines so I'm probably doing myself a friggin' disservice by not proofing. Doh!
clif
BTW Almost forgot...damn why doesn't slasdot allow one to go back and edit articles at a later time.
If ya think yer not already getting graded by computers and algorythms, yer sorely mistaken. I had one teacher at a High School raving about how great this system was, and was actually using it as a gradebook app for her class, grading every assignment, but using Project Essay Grader as a backup. It turns out she only looked at a page long essage for about 30 seconds before assigning a grade and pressing next.
Turns out she was only looking for stylistic differences in the essays, like did ya indent the paragraphs and the paragraphs of a certain size and when I had someone else rate these essays, they were right on the mark with what the others were giving them. Talk about bio-algorythmetic grading. Easy to figure out what she was doing, but very robot like as well...
clif
I work for the Testing Center at IUPUI (Indiana University Purdue University Indianapolis) we've been working with technology that does alot of the same things as IAE and Landauers work. We use something called the Project Essay Grader (PEG) and unlike Landauer, we don't make any fanciful claims as to what this stuff does or doesn't do. It grades papers and writting styles and nothing more.
/.ed (ie., the software can rate 1500 essays an hour but thats batch mode...it takes about a minute for every batch to start up even if its a batch of ONE). If ya want access to the demo, I can give ya a temp password.
We've been targetting this at the Indianapolis Public Schools for the last few years as well as trying to figure out uses of this for College entrance exams...along the way, we've built some damn good models for essay grading as well.
Here are the big plans we have for this :
Teachers have way too many papers to grade each and every day. The only way one learns is from writting...the years I've spent as a lit major (one of these days I'll finish that degree, but I'm geeking for a while) has taught me, classroom instruction means nothing. Ya need someone forcing ya to write and giving constructive criticisms of your work. Teachers don't have the time to grade papers, and if they do, they don't have time for a social life (ya wonder why most of them are angry and bitter).
With this software, we were actually paying teachers to grade about 3 essays (for model building purposes) and after that, they could use our grading software free of charge. What does this do for them? Well they probably had to grade the essays to begin with, and they probably had far more than 3 to deal with. Now they can assign alot more papers to the students and grade only a random sampling of them or check the ones the computer spits back out as invalid.
I wouldn't want any friggin' robot grading my paper or anyon elses, but if ya don't know if this is going to be read by a teacher or P.E.G. your gonna try harder than if ya just thought the teacher was gonna half ass it or ya thought that no person would ever read it. This was ya are forced to write, ya still get criticisms and ultimately, you should only be graded on those essays the teacher has seen and read.
The student also gets advantages from this, a student can ultimately run their own essay through the system before it ever reaches the teacher. Its not entirely accurate, much the same way that the grammer checker in Word isn't (well not much the same way cause this actually works). Either way, both the student and the teacher have advantages from using this software.
Our second usage of the PEG software comes from College Placement Exams. I design tests for a living and most of them are for helping a student choose the classes they need...very few of these are actually used to exclude students from college, but to make sure that they are in the levels they need to be. Its supprising how many Johnnys and Janeys come into school thinking they have the skills it takes to succeed and fall flat on their face. US High Schools suck and they suck big time in the state I live...if it doesn't have a basketball on the end of it, we ain't funding it. I get complaints all the time 'bout student testing and how it ain't an accurate reflection of the students actual knowledge (ie., if they've taken AP Calc, why can't they figure out simple algebra equations...) Well the test isn't about all that...College Councellors need to do their jobs as well, but most don't have the time either. These entrance exams are a help, but they are not always 100% accurate. They can give ya an aproximation of what ya know or don't know, but thats 'bout it. We're just about trying to make sure that students succeed.
We got alot of other projects going on with essay grading (as well as other testing shtuff) and its not all about making ya out to be just another #. Again, unlike Landauer's work we don't claim to do everything nor do we even claim that our software understands the essay ie., ya could write gibberish if ya wanted to, but it'd have to be nonsense on par with something like Jabberwocky to get a good score.
If any one is interested in this stuff, please feel free to email me personally, I can either field the call or pass it along to my boss Dr. Mark Shermis or the creator, Dr. Ellis Page - TruJudge Inc. and his head programmer Matt Lavoie. Right now, I've just killed the PEG demo on my site as my computer is being used for a whole host of other things and I don't want it
Clif Marsiglio
Mgr., Development - IUPUI Testing Center
317.274.2897 - ccmarsig@iupui.edu
Well considering those statements were attributed to me, I should say you don't know what the hell you are talking 'bout. Friggin geeks, for the most part, simply like like linux because it makes ya stand out about the rest of the croud and makes ya look special. I use it because I need file servers and webservers and don't feel like paying the damn bills for another NT box nor do I wanna give up my kick ass Compaq 486 server with all its hardware advantage when I know my boss is going to say "Why can't we use a Deskpro for the Server instead of the Proliant 1600 ya keep asking for??? Mine works just fine and was alot cheaper than that 486." The sad part is the 1600 is at the bottom of my list. The linux box works fine even though it is a 486...
I still can't imaging why anyone would want one of these for there desktop though.
As for the Mac...1) There are several free TCP utilities. The common person doesn't need ping, nor would they be able to understand the crap. Most users simply type in the parameters as directed by the instructions and go at it. If it doesn't work, they do it again...usually its a user error.
1a) The monochrome desktop??? what MacSE have you been using??? Elegant? Unlike this NT box I'm on now, the UI is light years ahead of anything else in the game. The only things that are not elegant are things like windowshade (which is technically not a default standard) where ya can click the top of the menubar to hide the majority of the window.
2) Rename grep to regexp-filter??? Are you nuts? every geek remembers grep means get regular expression, but if you said those words to a macoid, they won't know what you are talking about. Neither would a Wintel biggot for that matter. Search, I will give ya, but it would have to be far easier to use than it is now...
Lastly, Apple is sueing the dumbasses that think they can get away with using apple as their marketting department as well as their research and design wing.
blah
clif
OK, ya'll got upset when Amazon was posting private information about the most popular books being bought at different companies (which IMHO is kinda cool, but thats not the point) and how that was bad...Slashdot goes ahead and posts whats being used at M$ (again, I don't think this is bad either).
Why isn't there some sort of policy statment that says 'Tech support will not be used to ridicule or even comment on the specifics of others or the companies.' I know for one, I don't tell the specifics or even generalities of those I have to support as it just ain't right. Then again, we're talkin' bout M$ here so I guess all rules get thrown out the windows, eh?
clif
it was happening a few years back at Eli Lilly in Indianapolis. A few friends of mine got to keep all the Quadra's they could find. Too bad their pretty much worthless now except as DNS Servers or other such low volume type servers. Until recently, I used one of these as my main Midi box for my synths, but my silver and purple Powerbook 140 looked so much cooler. The funny thing is I hear several departments are going back to using these things once again after their experiment of only having to support one OS didn't work out for some types of work...
clif