I only maintain a handful of desktops PCs, and 4 online servers facing the internet.
On those, replacing my Debian setup with a windows equivalent would cost me between 20 and 25 000 dollars _per machine_ in licensing fees, renewable every three years.
Also, Windows can't run fast enough on these machines (they're Atom based computers), so I would also have to pay for more expensive hardware.
I enjoy the full disclosure that open source provides, so I know exactly what's going on. Zero downtime in three years. _Very_ pleasant and efficient development environment (I started on Windows, so I can tell the difference).
"When was the last time they needed out-of-house Office editing"
It might happen, and Open/LibreOffice are no obstacle for plain documents (e.g. contracts).
I've shared/edited documents with my clients who use Windows, while I have a Debian desktop with OO; no problem in years. Actually even less than them on occasions, because that makes me less version dependent.
"the prefix was added by people who simply got tired of waiting for Hurd"
Wrong : the prefix was added by Richard Stallman himself, who wanted people to remember that if Linus Torvalds did the kernel, GNU built the ecosystem it resides in.
I heard him in person saying this in a speech over 10 years ago.
Considering the amount of actual work that gets done in these meetings (IMO absolutely *nothing* that could not be done over a simple exchange of mails) it's no wonder these people elected Microsoft products in the first place.
Sure, but one fundamental difference with open source software is that it does not foster the multiple layers of executives found in proprietary software.
And I believe these people actually spend most of their time inventing new rules to justify their presence, artificially inflating the need for change, and create a mess in the process, because proven reliable software then gets broken.
Comparing the evolution of MS's office suite and that of Open/Libre Office over the last few years is a good example of that process, I find.
>I suspect that most people will be able to do the same thing, especially if the IT guy is the one doing all the installation and then telling them "to do that, just click on this icon right here..."
Yo, nice way to reduce maintenance cost : have an IT guy behind each clerk to show him where to click. Don't forget to train the IT guy first, because he probably won't know where to click either if you use anything past windows 7.
I work full time running Debian on an eee-pc that is now three years old.
All I've had to do is type this : apt-get update && apt-get upgrade in a console window once in a while to keep my system up-to-date. I did the same on my previous laptop for the preceeding three years, the machine is still in use.
In the meantime, Windows' Office suite has become absolutely useless to me, due to the staggering amount of changes introduced for reasons I can't fathom.
I have no idea what potential interruption in business you talk about, it certainly is far less common in open source software than in proprietary software.
The only information I gather from the linked article is that Seralini's word is largely approved by people who are against GMO's, and not by people who support them. Totally hollow.
"Finally, it is notable that Seralini's funding comes from Greenpeace, and organization not shy about distorting facts."
Sure, quite unlike Monsanto, ever so truthful... are you serious?
They most certainly do. Brain washing plays a very important part, and it involves paying for skewed studies, favorable articles in news media, and more.
"I would have to buy a cheaper laptop and install Linux on my own. I don't at all mind doing this, but it does take time and patience."
a LOT less than trying to install windows, I assure you.
Linux is actually quite easy to install. I'm partial to Debian, but for an easy trial, just burn a Knoppix CD, boot your machine off that CD, then click install in the menu bar. It will preserve your windows installation
I have been developping full type with Debian Stable on my PC for the past five years. The environment is extremely pleasant and efficient for what I do (databases + web apps), and I dread the rare foray I occasionally have to do in windows. My limited office suite needs are largely served by OpenOffice.
The only hindrance was not being able to view some videos, for lack of the proper codecs, this seems to be fixed. I probably could have worked on it, just did not for lack of time. As you wrote, backports offer many possibilities.
I write software for the insurance industry, where the constant flow of money breeds more managers than at places like IBM.
The amount of meaningless metrics required by these people is staggering (think quarterly statistics on liability insurance for a 30 person team which generates an average of four claims a year; multiply by hundreds of contracts; do not aggregate, use individual Excel spreadsheets)
I have come to the conclusion that the vast superiority of OSS stems from the very absence of management in its conception/realization.
Also, I believe cubic rage is a sign of _good_ mental health
Listening to one of them speaking would give you all the evidence you need. I'm being harsh, though : they do seem relatively bright, when compared to soccer supporters.
(yes I _am_ bitter from seeing that stupid sport being hugely subsidized)
"I'm a big linux advocate, but it doesn't necesarily mean postgres can be swapped in for MSSQL, it all depends very heavily on the POS software."
No doubt this would be very difficult, hence the use of a virtual machine to host Windows; but using linux on the hardware would provide the desired stability of the server, and the possibility to use some open source software, if any.
But there is a learning curve, which is why is recommended the LUG, where one can probably find some competent admin(s) to set up a very stable machine for a fraction of the cost of MS's licences.
Slashdot Mirror
Sure, let's do the math :
I only maintain a handful of desktops PCs, and 4 online servers facing the internet.
On those, replacing my Debian setup with a windows equivalent would cost me between 20 and 25 000 dollars _per machine_ in licensing fees, renewable every three years.
Also, Windows can't run fast enough on these machines (they're Atom based computers), so I would also have to pay for more expensive hardware.
I enjoy the full disclosure that open source provides, so I know exactly what's going on. Zero downtime in three years. _Very_ pleasant and efficient development environment (I started on Windows, so I can tell the difference).
Keep counting...
"open source software stacks take time to maintain"
To keep my Debian systems up-to-date, I simply need to type
apt-get update && apt-get install
If you're a slow typist (80wpm), that's about 8 seconds per machine. You may copy/paste and get down to 2 seconds.
You can also have your document display changes/edits made by the third party and validate those changes, or not.
"When was the last time they needed out-of-house Office editing"
It might happen, and Open/LibreOffice are no obstacle for plain documents (e.g. contracts).
I've shared/edited documents with my clients who use Windows, while I have a Debian desktop with OO; no problem in years. Actually even less than them on occasions, because that makes me less version dependent.
I never heard RMS talk about GNU/Minix; I did about GNU/Linux
"the prefix was added by people who simply got tired of waiting for Hurd"
Wrong : the prefix was added by Richard Stallman himself, who wanted people to remember that if Linus Torvalds did the kernel, GNU built the ecosystem it resides in.
I heard him in person saying this in a speech over 10 years ago.
Indeed, ovh.com has statistics on the systems installed on its dedicated servers :
Windows =~ 5 000
Linux =~ 60 000
Concurred : I spent the last seven years on Debian, all upgrades went without a hitch, all my software needs being covered many times over.
Also, I have been working full time for over 3 years with an eee pc, which is close to unusable under Windows, and quite pleasant with linux.
Considering the amount of actual work that gets done in these meetings (IMO absolutely *nothing* that could not be done over a simple exchange of mails) it's no wonder these people elected Microsoft products in the first place.
>training will happen, like it or not.
Sure, but one fundamental difference with open source software is that it does not foster the multiple layers of executives found in proprietary software.
And I believe these people actually spend most of their time inventing new rules to justify their presence, artificially inflating the need for change, and create a mess in the process, because proven reliable software then gets broken.
Comparing the evolution of MS's office suite and that of Open/Libre Office over the last few years is a good example of that process, I find.
>I suspect that most people will be able to do the same thing, especially if the IT guy is the one doing all the installation and then telling them "to do that, just click on this icon right here ..."
Yo, nice way to reduce maintenance cost : have an IT guy behind each clerk to show him where to click. Don't forget to train the IT guy first, because he probably won't know where to click either if you use anything past windows 7.
What a joke.
I work full time running Debian on an eee-pc that is now three years old.
All I've had to do is type this :
apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
in a console window once in a while to keep my system up-to-date.
I did the same on my previous laptop for the preceeding three years, the machine is still in use.
In the meantime, Windows' Office suite has become absolutely useless to me, due to the staggering amount of changes introduced for reasons I can't fathom.
I have no idea what potential interruption in business you talk about, it certainly is far less common in open source software than in proprietary software.
One thing is certain : I am not looking back.
"Sorry if my postings on this upset the anti-GMO crowd, but the facts are sometimes annoying."
Which is the reason why pro-GMO lobbyists so vehemently prevent any form of serious research on them, presenting only their own as valid.
Here is one example, among many others :
http://www.naturalnews.com/037665_gmo_scientists_organ_damage.html
The only information I gather from the linked article is that Seralini's word is largely approved by people who are against GMO's, and not by people who support them. Totally hollow.
"Finally, it is notable that Seralini's funding comes from Greenpeace, and organization not shy about distorting facts."
Sure, quite unlike Monsanto, ever so truthful... are you serious?
They most certainly do. Brain washing plays a very important part, and it involves paying for skewed studies, favorable articles in news media, and more.
If you meant what you wrote, do wake up, please.
"I would have to buy a cheaper laptop and install Linux on my own. I don't at all mind doing this, but it does take time and patience."
a LOT less than trying to install windows, I assure you.
Linux is actually quite easy to install. I'm partial to Debian, but for an easy trial, just burn a Knoppix CD, boot your machine off that CD, then click install in the menu bar. It will preserve your windows installation
>I have been developping full type
Duh. full time
I have been developping full type with Debian Stable on my PC for the past five years. The environment is extremely pleasant and efficient for what I do (databases + web apps), and I dread the rare foray I occasionally have to do in windows. My limited office suite needs are largely served by OpenOffice.
The only hindrance was not being able to view some videos, for lack of the proper codecs, this seems to be fixed. I probably could have worked on it, just did not for lack of time. As you wrote, backports offer many possibilities.
some people seem to get plenty of good performance :
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/modperl/modperl/104941
Agreed on all points.
I write software for the insurance industry, where the constant flow of money breeds more managers than at places like IBM.
The amount of meaningless metrics required by these people is staggering (think quarterly statistics on liability insurance for a 30 person team which generates an average of four claims a year; multiply by hundreds of contracts; do not aggregate, use individual Excel spreadsheets)
I have come to the conclusion that the vast superiority of OSS stems from the very absence of management in its conception/realization.
Also, I believe cubic rage is a sign of _good_ mental health
Listening to one of them speaking would give you all the evidence you need. I'm being harsh, though : they do seem relatively bright, when compared to soccer supporters.
(yes I _am_ bitter from seeing that stupid sport being hugely subsidized)
"One expensive commercial product with ultra-low overhead "
Contradiction in terms.
"Because bitcoin is a pure pump and dump scam."
I wonder why so many hackers are interested in it then?
" The faster it dies the better."
If it doesn't die, I would guess it will come out stronger
Call me when you have anything meaningful to do with more than
1024 columns
Very valid points against the cloud, thank you.
"I'm a big linux advocate, but it doesn't necesarily mean postgres can be swapped in for MSSQL, it all depends very heavily on the POS software."
No doubt this would be very difficult, hence the use of a virtual machine to host Windows; but using linux on the hardware would provide the desired stability of the server, and the possibility to use some open source software, if any.
But there is a learning curve, which is why is recommended the LUG, where one can probably find some competent admin(s) to set up a very stable machine for a fraction of the cost of MS's licences.