Because if it were, more people would join it, and the powers that be wouldn't be the powers that be anymore. There'd be a new boss, same as the old boss.
While I certainly can't argue with the field manual angle, a soldier being given a choice by his commanding officer of A) follow the order, we'll sort it out later or B) court martial is not a fun one. Court/court martials are psychologically traumatic, and even being accused of a crime is guilt enough for many people. Therefore, the officer's admonitions of "it's okay" or "we'll worry about that later" are the icing that gets the soldier to go along (they submit to authority figures, who are presumed to know what they're talking about).
Following orders becomes quite a bit easier in military situations like this, even if it isn't the right thing to do.
I should have been slightly more clear here. "At the risk of being modded down for playing the devil's advocate."
Your post thoroughly endorses moral relativism and then closes by saying "be wary of moral relativism".
Do you mean "be aware of" or are you just confused?
I never said it completely absolves the soldier. However, a repentant soldier who was commanded to fire is probably far less culpable for his actions than the officer who ordered him. Torture is slightly more clear cut, but still fits here. Another exempli gratia: Would you blame a small child for doing something his parents told him to do? He likely didn't know any better, and was told that it was right to do.
There are different levels of culpability. The peon soldier perhaps doesn't know any better. The officers are more responsible in this sense. Punishing the peon soldier for his part probably isn't going to have much effect, since the rest of the peon soldiers don't know any better.
Would you blame the hand holding the gun, the arm the hand is attached to, the torso the arm is on, or the mind controlling it all? Do you blame the employees for the mistakes of the executives of a company? How about the foremen? Or the lower managers? They're all following orders to some degree, but the workers are just following policy, they're not expected to evaluate it. That's what managers and officers do.
None of this explains how this absolves them of guilt. The same could be said of Nazi prison camp guards. They were told the jews and other political prisoners were dangerous and were destroying German society.
It's not sufficient to be willing to die following orders. You must also be willing to die for disobeying immoral orders. Otherwise you're just a mercenary.
Immoral orders? By whose morality? The victor's. If the Germans had won, a completely different measure of morality would have been applied.
At the risk of being called a troll or something, the guards working the concentration camps probably thought they were protecting their homeland. I'm no expert, and assuming they were drawn from the ranks (one could technically make the leap and consider lower ranking SS to also be ignorant). They were told these people were dangerous to their society. Did they have any reason not to believe it (I'd wager that the guards had no way to disprove their superiors in this matter). It wasn't clear-cut as if the jews, gypsies, and others were taking up arms.
Be wary of moral relativism. You may consider your enemy immoral for wanting to kill you, but I'm entirely sure he considers it quite moral. The reverse is also true.
Soldiers aren't really trained in much law beyond some really basic stuff involving the UCMJ. Anything involving fine details generally requires a military lawyer.
I can't imagine how an effective military would be hampered if every soldier had to consult a lawyer about the legality of his actions every time he was given an order.
Sgt: "Privates! Ready, Aim! Fire!" Pvt: "Sgt, I need to consult my lawyer first."
I agree with your first point, but IMHO soldiers who committed torture do not deserve protection. They could and should have refused to execute their orders.
Actually, soldiers are generally not any more privvy to information than you are. They're just told "this guy has information that will prevent <X-Deadly-Action>, and I need you to get it out of him." Of course, the soldier is trained to A) follow orders B) not worry about the ramifications (don't believe everything the army tells you about wanting brains) and C) is usually an 18-24 year old who wants to do the right thing.
If you don't know what Cmd-Shift-1 and Cmd-Shift-2 are for, GTFO.
If you think Firefox is a decent Mac application, GTFO.
If you're still looking for the "maximize" button, GTFO.
If the name "Clarus" means nothing to you, GTFO.
Bandwagon jumpers are not welcome among real Mac users. Keep your filthy PC fingers to yourself.
Did you just find the "Any Key"?
I have a key combination for you. It'll tell your computer to work for you while you just sit there and collect money. Just press the Alt key, Ctrl key, and Delete key all at the same time!
Ironically, it's probably the single fat mammy. Assuming the four kids grow up to be gangbangers, and each kill three people, thats 12 criminals off the street dead saving us $120,000 per year on average EACH to incarcerate.
Your contribution to the GDP : 14 x $40,000 = $560,000
Fat nigger savings to the GDP : 12 x $120,000 = $1,440,000
Plus the gangbangers will likely be killed and might provide income to the local hospitals, etc.
I should be shocked at this callous outlook on human life, but I'm more impressed that someone took the time to do the math here.
Your ideas intrigue me. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
The "recommendation" referred to is almost two years old and has nothing to do with the worm. Article is a troll pretty much. One support article is for disabling Autorun on CD-ROMs, while the other is for Autoplay. Neither was created specifically to support Downadup as far as I can tell.
Ironically, I saw this one coming in 1998 when I first installed windows 95. I made sure to disable Autorun as soon as I figured out how to work the registry.
RE Nagasaki, Bockscar's primary was Kokura, another "major nexus" as you put it. (HQ, barracks, logistical hubs, etc.) In fact, it looks like Kokura was second on the unified target list, after Hiroshima, and would have been the first city nuked if Hiroshima had to be skipped.
When Bockscar arrived at Kokura, it was cloud-obscured, and their attack orders specified visual bombsighting only. (Rather than radar targeting, which was an option.) So, they left Kokura, proceeded to their secondary (Nagasaki), found it obscured also, and loitered until close to the end of their mission time. The cloud cover broke, they prosecuted their attack, and history was written.
Apparently, Nagasaki was a planned secondary, mostly for industrial, transport, and military value. Nagasaki was one of the most important civil seaports, and home of military naval base Sasebo and the Mitsubishi shipyard (source of ships like Musashi). So definitely, inasmuch as any major industrialized city can be a valid and high-value military target, Nagasaki was so.
Thanks. I didn't have a ton of time to hunt that stuff down again (posting at work, yet I have time for/. =P)
In light of the enormity of the historical event, a trivial personal note: If Bockscar had hit her primary, I might not exist. My mother is Japanese and was a teenager living close to Kokura that day.
Isn't it interesting how things come together like that?
Alright, this is complete bullshit. While America may have violated the Geneva convention, and I don't agree with those violations at all, we are not war criminals because we "drop nukes on cities." That's just ridiculous. We've used two atomic bombs on an enemy that wouldn't have stopped fighting; they would have inflicted more civilian deaths with their fighting than the bombs did. Also, we weren't sure exactly how much damage and destruction those bombs would cause. We didn't know how the radiation sickness would pan out. Plus, it wasn't a war crime at the time to drop a bomb that no one needed to exist.
Really, that comment was just unnecessary and a flamebait. If you had alluded to the recent POW scandals, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. But the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That's just ridiculous.
Actually, I'm not sure the Geneva convention specifically addresses nuclear warfare. But the GP is exactly correct about the firebombing to have been far more devastating.
Hiroshima was a major nexus for the Japanese military, including multiple HQs. Nagasaki was basically a fishing town that got bombed by accident (I believe they missed their primary and secondary targets due to weather). It wasn't a sustained moral campaign, though I'm certain any Japs who knew about it were certainly terrified of new super weapons.
As an aside, the nukes dropped were in the low kiloton range. Basically, 10 2000lb bombs each (~20kT yield). Later nuke tests went up into the megaton ranges. Wow.
Yeah, that's called "realism." People in real life often rarely grow sufficiently large backbones to "do the right thing" either, particularly when they're threatened and running for their lives.
And, as for secrets, is there any one of us who doesn't carry a TON of those around with them? Do you wake up every day and tell your wife that she's become a fat, bitter shrew and that you don't want to be married to her anymore because you want to go find a cute younger woman who isn't a fat, bitter shrew? Do you tell your kids that you're disappointed that they're not as smart or handsome as you'd hoped they'd be? Do you tell your boss he's a fucking idiot and that you think you could do a better job than him? Do you tell you mother that you don't want to visit her or call her because you're too different from her now to have anything to talk about? Do you tell yourself that you're not the hero of the story, just another loser in a world full of losers?
...I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?
We were talking about your issues. Now, then. Everything is going to be alright. Just relax on the couch, and tell about your father.
Let's see, so far, computer models have failed to accurately manage loan portfolios to higher risk buyers, failed to manage risk books for hedge funds, could not capture currency trading, can't predict the weather and are probably wrong about climate. Sure, let's have them predict nobel prize winners while we are at it!
Actually, using it to predict Nobel prize winners would be a silly use.
But it would be quite useful to allow scientists to focus their research, find all the tidbits, maybe shed some small extra bit that they may have missed otherwise.
>That's exactly what a couple of US researchers have done for physics papers published by the American Physical Society since 1893
I wasn't aware that Google's PageRank existed in 1893.
It didn't. But they don't just throw away published papers. Those papers tend to sit around on a dusty shelf, forgotten in a library (unless they're really well-cited). Or in an archive (most likely).
Slashdot Mirror
However, the revolution will not be televised.
Because if it were, more people would join it, and the powers that be wouldn't be the powers that be anymore. There'd be a new boss, same as the old boss.
While I certainly can't argue with the field manual angle, a soldier being given a choice by his commanding officer of A) follow the order, we'll sort it out later or B) court martial is not a fun one. Court/court martials are psychologically traumatic, and even being accused of a crime is guilt enough for many people. Therefore, the officer's admonitions of "it's okay" or "we'll worry about that later" are the icing that gets the soldier to go along (they submit to authority figures, who are presumed to know what they're talking about).
Following orders becomes quite a bit easier in military situations like this, even if it isn't the right thing to do.
At the risk of being called a troll or something
I should have been slightly more clear here. "At the risk of being modded down for playing the devil's advocate."
Your post thoroughly endorses moral relativism and then closes by saying "be wary of moral relativism".
Do you mean "be aware of" or are you just confused?
I never said it completely absolves the soldier. However, a repentant soldier who was commanded to fire is probably far less culpable for his actions than the officer who ordered him. Torture is slightly more clear cut, but still fits here. Another exempli gratia: Would you blame a small child for doing something his parents told him to do? He likely didn't know any better, and was told that it was right to do.
There are different levels of culpability. The peon soldier perhaps doesn't know any better. The officers are more responsible in this sense. Punishing the peon soldier for his part probably isn't going to have much effect, since the rest of the peon soldiers don't know any better.
Would you blame the hand holding the gun, the arm the hand is attached to, the torso the arm is on, or the mind controlling it all? Do you blame the employees for the mistakes of the executives of a company? How about the foremen? Or the lower managers? They're all following orders to some degree, but the workers are just following policy, they're not expected to evaluate it. That's what managers and officers do.
None of this explains how this absolves them of guilt. The same could be said of Nazi prison camp guards. They were told the jews and other political prisoners were dangerous and were destroying German society.
It's not sufficient to be willing to die following orders. You must also be willing to die for disobeying immoral orders. Otherwise you're just a mercenary.
Immoral orders? By whose morality? The victor's. If the Germans had won, a completely different measure of morality would have been applied.
At the risk of being called a troll or something, the guards working the concentration camps probably thought they were protecting their homeland. I'm no expert, and assuming they were drawn from the ranks (one could technically make the leap and consider lower ranking SS to also be ignorant). They were told these people were dangerous to their society. Did they have any reason not to believe it (I'd wager that the guards had no way to disprove their superiors in this matter). It wasn't clear-cut as if the jews, gypsies, and others were taking up arms.
Be wary of moral relativism. You may consider your enemy immoral for wanting to kill you, but I'm entirely sure he considers it quite moral. The reverse is also true.
Soldiers aren't really trained in much law beyond some really basic stuff involving the UCMJ. Anything involving fine details generally requires a military lawyer.
I can't imagine how an effective military would be hampered if every soldier had to consult a lawyer about the legality of his actions every time he was given an order.
Sgt: "Privates! Ready, Aim! Fire!"
Pvt: "Sgt, I need to consult my lawyer first."
I agree with your first point, but IMHO soldiers who committed torture do not deserve protection. They could and should have refused to execute their orders.
Actually, soldiers are generally not any more privvy to information than you are. They're just told "this guy has information that will prevent <X-Deadly-Action>, and I need you to get it out of him." Of course, the soldier is trained to A) follow orders B) not worry about the ramifications (don't believe everything the army tells you about wanting brains) and C) is usually an 18-24 year old who wants to do the right thing.
fat colored Urrr . . . what color is "fat," exactly?
Whitish yellow.
I, for one, welcome the first instance of grey goo ! Tell me, these things will run some software, right ?
Yes. It'll run linux on a beowulf cluster of grey goo.
static or sliding friction? Specifics, people!
If you don't know what Cmd-Shift-1 and Cmd-Shift-2 are for, GTFO. If you think Firefox is a decent Mac application, GTFO. If you're still looking for the "maximize" button, GTFO. If the name "Clarus" means nothing to you, GTFO.
Bandwagon jumpers are not welcome among real Mac users. Keep your filthy PC fingers to yourself.
Did you just find the "Any Key"?
I have a key combination for you. It'll tell your computer to work for you while you just sit there and collect money. Just press the Alt key, Ctrl key, and Delete key all at the same time!
mOOF
Ironically, it's probably the single fat mammy. Assuming the four kids grow up to be gangbangers, and each kill three people, thats 12 criminals off the street dead saving us $120,000 per year on average EACH to incarcerate. Your contribution to the GDP : 14 x $40,000 = $560,000 Fat nigger savings to the GDP : 12 x $120,000 = $1,440,000 Plus the gangbangers will likely be killed and might provide income to the local hospitals, etc.
I should be shocked at this callous outlook on human life, but I'm more impressed that someone took the time to do the math here.
Your ideas intrigue me. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
The "recommendation" referred to is almost two years old and has nothing to do with the worm. Article is a troll pretty much. One support article is for disabling Autorun on CD-ROMs, while the other is for Autoplay. Neither was created specifically to support Downadup as far as I can tell.
Ironically, I saw this one coming in 1998 when I first installed windows 95. I made sure to disable Autorun as soon as I figured out how to work the registry.
Maybe this will encourage the Russians to apply themselves to developing pirate space travel.
That sounds better...
Sign me up! Arrrr
Please take one more tourist into space for humanity's sake: the world's most dangerous person AND his crime sydicate.
Thank you for your help.
Yours In Socialism, Kilgore Trout
I think Messiah Obama is afraid of space, based on his lack of concern for space exploration.
RE Nagasaki, Bockscar's primary was Kokura, another "major nexus" as you put it. (HQ, barracks, logistical hubs, etc.) In fact, it looks like Kokura was second on the unified target list, after Hiroshima, and would have been the first city nuked if Hiroshima had to be skipped.
When Bockscar arrived at Kokura, it was cloud-obscured, and their attack orders specified visual bombsighting only. (Rather than radar targeting, which was an option.) So, they left Kokura, proceeded to their secondary (Nagasaki), found it obscured also, and loitered until close to the end of their mission time. The cloud cover broke, they prosecuted their attack, and history was written.
Apparently, Nagasaki was a planned secondary, mostly for industrial, transport, and military value. Nagasaki was one of the most important civil seaports, and home of military naval base Sasebo and the Mitsubishi shipyard (source of ships like Musashi ). So definitely, inasmuch as any major industrialized city can be a valid and high-value military target, Nagasaki was so.
Thanks. I didn't have a ton of time to hunt that stuff down again (posting at work, yet I have time for /. =P)
In light of the enormity of the historical event, a trivial personal note: If Bockscar had hit her primary, I might not exist. My mother is Japanese and was a teenager living close to Kokura that day.
Isn't it interesting how things come together like that?
Maybe this will encourage the Russians to apply themselves to developing private space travel.
you're war criminals who drop nukes on cities.
Alright, this is complete bullshit. While America may have violated the Geneva convention, and I don't agree with those violations at all, we are not war criminals because we "drop nukes on cities." That's just ridiculous. We've used two atomic bombs on an enemy that wouldn't have stopped fighting; they would have inflicted more civilian deaths with their fighting than the bombs did. Also, we weren't sure exactly how much damage and destruction those bombs would cause. We didn't know how the radiation sickness would pan out. Plus, it wasn't a war crime at the time to drop a bomb that no one needed to exist. Really, that comment was just unnecessary and a flamebait. If you had alluded to the recent POW scandals, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. But the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That's just ridiculous.
Actually, I'm not sure the Geneva convention specifically addresses nuclear warfare. But the GP is exactly correct about the firebombing to have been far more devastating.
Hiroshima was a major nexus for the Japanese military, including multiple HQs. Nagasaki was basically a fishing town that got bombed by accident (I believe they missed their primary and secondary targets due to weather). It wasn't a sustained moral campaign, though I'm certain any Japs who knew about it were certainly terrified of new super weapons.
As an aside, the nukes dropped were in the low kiloton range. Basically, 10 2000lb bombs each (~20kT yield). Later nuke tests went up into the megaton ranges. Wow.
Yeah, that's called "realism." People in real life often rarely grow sufficiently large backbones to "do the right thing" either, particularly when they're threatened and running for their lives.
And, as for secrets, is there any one of us who doesn't carry a TON of those around with them? Do you wake up every day and tell your wife that she's become a fat, bitter shrew and that you don't want to be married to her anymore because you want to go find a cute younger woman who isn't a fat, bitter shrew? Do you tell your kids that you're disappointed that they're not as smart or handsome as you'd hoped they'd be? Do you tell your boss he's a fucking idiot and that you think you could do a better job than him? Do you tell you mother that you don't want to visit her or call her because you're too different from her now to have anything to talk about? Do you tell yourself that you're not the hero of the story, just another loser in a world full of losers?
We were talking about your issues. Now, then. Everything is going to be alright. Just relax on the couch, and tell about your father.
It didn't, but it really wasn't all that funny, either.
Let's see, so far, computer models have failed to accurately manage loan portfolios to higher risk buyers, failed to manage risk books for hedge funds, could not capture currency trading, can't predict the weather and are probably wrong about climate. Sure, let's have them predict nobel prize winners while we are at it!
Actually, using it to predict Nobel prize winners would be a silly use.
But it would be quite useful to allow scientists to focus their research, find all the tidbits, maybe shed some small extra bit that they may have missed otherwise.
>That's exactly what a couple of US researchers have done for physics papers published by the American Physical Society since 1893 I wasn't aware that Google's PageRank existed in 1893.
It didn't. But they don't just throw away published papers. Those papers tend to sit around on a dusty shelf, forgotten in a library (unless they're really well-cited). Or in an archive (most likely).
You know, it's funny, maybe 5 or 6 years ago it would've been:
Windows 2000 = lean Windows XP = bloated
All operating systems are bloated. I'll take bare metal any day over a silly, bloated OS!
Radio waves are photons! You need to get some better science teachers if they are not aware of wave-particle duality.
No they're not! They're Radons! Everyone knows that! It can't be a particle AND a wave! Think of the children!
Note: This message was paid for by the DNC, EPA, the Ad Council, society for really bad science, and Barack Obama approved this message.
MS-DOS = Lean Windows 3.1 = Fat
Sounds a bit like THX1138, and not the modern "remaster" that shows people getting out of the way (instead of knocked off the scaffolding).