By making it a marine reserve, this encourages other countries and environmental NGOs to provide funding for patrolling that they wouldn't recieve if it were not a reserved area. This isn't Africa, the threat of reporting on these illegal operators is usually enough to deter them...
You're an idiot if you think the foreign companies employ i-kiribati labourers on their fishing ships. And what a strawman it is talking about fishermen starving, you still have not comprehended that subsistence fishing is a WHOLE other activity compared to commercial fishing operations. You still cannot see how completely wrong you are on this issue. Anyone living in Kiribati can fish for food. It's foreign commercial licenses that have been banned, you know, for overfishing the fishing grounds, and giving back a minimal profit. And because they're a poor small country with a huge EEC mostly comprised of ocean, illegal fishing is widespread, meaning chinese and japanese fishing companies are getting fish without paying them anything at all. They SHOULD starve, or at least get better jobs. Your argument suggests that people should let robbers clean their homes out, because if not, the robbers would starve. Idiot.
If you knew anything at all about commcercial fishing in the south pacific, you's know the government gets paid for a commercial license to fish, because small island states lack the manpower and resources to maintain their own fishing fleets. They don't actually sell the fish, just permission to fish for them. At least RTFA and google for a few minutes before posting a totally ignorant commen!
$46,381 per capita GDP seems excessive for americans, I wonder if other countries are protesting that americans are too rich... Seriously, this blindness to other (read non-western, non-white) ways of life and other problems is disappointing... News for nerds indeed, more like news for ignorant ethnocentric hicks...
If you'd RTFA, locals are totally allowed to fish, only large foreign companies are banned from fishing! I can't believe this was modded insightful. the point of this ban is to create a marine preserve out of kiribati territories, so even with the loss of their homes, they leave the earth a substantial patch of pristine (as possible) ocean...
I think the poet Wislawa Szymorska wrote a nice poem about how artifical country lines are, animals don't follow them, or oceans and clouds... We're all in this together on this blue mudball, and the depletion of fish stocks in the island territories surrounding kiribati will just cause some of the plentiful fish to disperse to less comptetitive waters, while marine pollution from outside will just diffuse across national borders like it does across a test tube... A beautiful gesture, but if things get as bad as you say in your last paragraph, they'll be screwed too...
There are no rivers on the kiribati islands, and large barrier reefs keep away most wave action from the atolls... Any shrinkage would be due to either the ocean floor sinking out from under the island, or the more plausible cause, global warming causing sea levels to rise... Why are you comparing volcanis islets in hawi'i to reef formed atolls?
From the title (not having RTFA nor RTFS), I pictured this island nation makes virgin sacrifices to the volcano god and all Kitibatian (Kiribatan? Kiribatinese? Kiribatish?) slashdotters have scattered and gone underground.
It's written "i-kiribati" and pronounced ee-keereebas, thats the adjective for that country. Also, don't knock the pacific island countries! Although poor and tiny, some countries have higher phd/capita ratios than the US (although it's mostly in humanities disciplines).
The middle is the middle regardless of its absolute level. You're saying, in effect, that because of unions someone else who would have been middle class is now lower class.
You either didn't understand what GP said (families with blue collar jobs like his would be much poorer, i.e not middle class), or you're some freetard who would rather play pedantic than address the fact that real life is a hell of a lot messier than simplistic economic theories.
Economically, unions are a drag on the economy, which means that overall, everybody gets less because less is produced.
This can be true, but not the way you think. Unions do cause some net loss, but they pay for this cost by ensuring that those who get the least (workers), get a fair amount of the remaining pie. If you think a company will pay it's workers more (particularly factory floor workers) when it becomes more profitable, you're deluding yourself. The harsh fact of the matter is that the greed that runs capitalism needs to be threatened with a big stick before it acts more equitably to the workforce. You might think "Oh, they just need to find another job." Well in company towns, or when a family lacks the resources (i.e is too fucking poor) to move, there is no alternative.
Historically, unions have gained power through violence, the threat of violence, corruption and ties to organized crime. They have successfully promoted laws that allow unions to violate rights in a manner that no individual could get away with. (Try arresting a striker for trespass or criminal mischief).
Finally, unions increase immoral personal properties: sloth, jealousy, and the use of threats and violence to achieve goals. A person who voluntarily joins a union cannot be fully moral.
Sorry, let me clarify what I was agreeing with. I was agreeing that it's difficult for new users to find good/appropriate applications when using package managers. Community forums and blogs have done a great job of informing people that want to do the research, but for less motivated/capable people, it's a crapshoot whether they'll find something awesome or horrible. I don't think this is because of large amounts of applications, but rather that they are not arranged and indexed, with maybe tags, and hierachies based on at least: popularity (downloads), popularity (ratings), last updated, and update frequency. Several steps in the right direction were achieved in 10.04 with the software centre, but more work is needed. Hmmm, what I described above sounds like the sourceforge project search page.... Imagine that!! With more coherent settings management (a la YaST) and the aforementioned features in the software centre, thats my dream for 10.10.
In fact, I'd say that Ubuntu while not perfect, at least it has the Software Center, while Windows has nothing.
While I agree with this, there's a cultural difference between the platforms. For Windows, application vendors generally advertise and deliver apps to the users, whereas for most linux distros, distro makers must tweak and distribute the apps themselves through their repositories. What I mean is that, on windows, someone is pushing for a user to install program X, whereas on linux, a user installs program Y if and only if they can find it and understand that it does what they want. There's a tradeoff between apporaches, but I think it would be best if the application makers were to deliver their apps tuned and bugfixed into the repositories of the larger distros, rather than the distros having to do this. It would eliminate downstream bugs cropping up as a result distro's tweaking (Remember the debian openssl debacle?), and the distros would get the latest app versions alongside windows and mac os...
In any event, this side argument fails to demonstrate Ubuntu's alleged shortcomings in terms of web browsing.
Oh, I realize you thought I was eldavojohn... Using linux (and even FreeBSD), I have never ran into problems browsing the web, I would never say that... Neither would I say that desktop linux has "big problems". I would say that desktop linux has many, many small problems, that projects like a thousand papercuts try to address. Tiny interface quirks that would never even give pause to your average slashdotter can confuse and frustrate many less able users.
From personal experiece (yes I know, anecdotes are not data), I am a linux/windows dual booter. I do most things in linux, but keep a windows partition for games. Whenever someone I know, mostly uni students non-CS fields (like medicine, biology, etc) , wants to use my PC, I'll let them use it, often leaving them to use it alone. When I come back to them, they've booted into windows to continue reading/watching/listening to whatever it is. When asked, they usually mention some small irritation or surprise (e.g the screensaver coming on while a movie is playing, or the web browser not supporting some windows feature like middle-scrolling).
Often a lot of interest is shown, but this falls sharply upon encountering a "missing" feature, or a little quirk.It may be true that 80% of users use 20% of an app's features, but this seems to be a different 20% for different users...
You consider clicking the 'Applications' menu and scrolling to and clicking 'Ubuntu Software Center' in-depth knowledge
But these applications aren't weighted by popularity, something that should seem obvious to anyone, especially after the example the Apple App Store, Adroid Marketplace and Firefox Addons website show us. Also, most screenshots fail to load, and the summary/blurb about the applications, particularly the more obscure ones, are less than helpful. To a user uncomfortable with linux, and computers in general, this is very intimidating.
My first exposure to Linux Hater was your link, which led to a page where a lunatic is ranting about a font and declaring ogg sucks because it isn't mp3. I think your initial thoughts about that blog were correct.
Had you followed the links, you would have seen it was lunatic ranting about lunatic ranting across certain less intelligent sections of the FOSS blog world. In the last few weeks, there has been much ado about nothing regarding some fonts Canonical is proposing to use in Ubuntu 10.10, probably in their drive to strengthen branding. But of course, because they didn't roll it out EXACTLY like those idiot bloggers would like, you'd think Canonical was violating the GPL or something...
From the GP:
Even with a user-friendly package manager you are still faced with a huge noise to signal ratio created by the large amount of applications that might do what you want, none of which are the application you've heard of.
This is so true, even though lots of good progress has been made, they're close but no cigar. It's funny, because Mozilla does it so well for their addons, and then Apple and Android do it for smartphones, you'd think linux distro makers, who've used repositories for ages, would get it right before them. I'm filled with hope for 10.10, and the Linux Mint derivative of that release...
Following your logic, it's ok that vista sucked compared to xp on release because xp had 5+ years of polishing after release.
Actually, yes. Not features-wise, but for stability and polish, yeah, the old version is expected to be less featurefull but more polished, expecially when its such an entrenched pdoduct...
I think bigstrat2003 was talking about applications, as in legacy applications on a modern OS, not a modern OS on legacy hardware.. And this is true, data should not be locked down, so when an application, or system of them (like a business app suite) is not updated in a while, this can be moved to a system that's still alive. I know people complain about feature creep, but the fact is, most updates fix security bugs as well as adding features...
Which is why egg shells seem to stay at the apparent hardness they have now, without getting any harder (or softer) on average. Too hard and the chick can't peck it's way out, too soft and the egg breaks too easily... Also, many birds have a "tooth" on their beaks when they're at the hatching age, evolved to help them hatch from the shell. It's called selection pressure
Strawman much? All that could be done is a work with a single bit added, and a requirement that each time it was copied/passed around, this bit were 'flipped' so to speak, such a trivially achievable loophole around the license would allow trustworthy copies of the work in the community... Comparing two works, showing only one bit of difference, would be enough security for most people...
I thought go-oo also required copyright assigned to them when submitting patches (I agree they're not as retarded as Sun when it comes to accepting patches).. Why is Oracle making an even bigger mess of it? By attaching it's name to the project? And what exactly did Novell do different than Red Hat that makes Suse such a 'dog'?
If someone's mind does not work fast enough to absorb and apply the information in a few seconds, one is not very intelligent after all... I've seen it happen in a classroom filled with fellow students. The less intelligent need to review the literature, think about it, talk about it, blah blah blah... The truly bright ones just got it, end of story... Now, I wouldn't call this former group dumb, but rather than wait for them to catch up, they should try harder to stay with the top of the pack...
I don't like Microsoft any more than the next guy, but whats the big deal with the conspiracy theories over this? When linux distros have centralized updating and app installation, it's touted as a "Good Thing®" by the slashdot crowd, when MS plans to do it, it's a sign of the tyranny to come!?! Rationality is needed here people. MS has a much better track record of working with third-party app developers than Apple does, their mis-deeds lie in other categories... This sounds like a really good idea for average non tech-savvy windows users everywhere!
I know this is an old thread, but still, you haven't replied to the last part of my post, that pollution reduction measures should be helpful regardless. Also, you agrees with me that temperatures are rising, and that sea levels are rising. All this hairsplitting about whether we are the cause or not is getting in the way of so many smart decisions, it makes me sad... There are very few scientific facts when studying something as complex as climate, or evolution. How the earth's climate changes over time, how human activities fit in this, is hard to reduce to facts, but the theories fit quite well with the facts, and all this hand-waving to the midieval warm period, which WAS local to a certain region, and not beyond, is till weaker than the alternative, that human activity (particularly industrial activity) is responsible for climate change...
Slashdot Mirror
By making it a marine reserve, this encourages other countries and environmental NGOs to provide funding for patrolling that they wouldn't recieve if it were not a reserved area. This isn't Africa, the threat of reporting on these illegal operators is usually enough to deter them...
You're an idiot if you think the foreign companies employ i-kiribati labourers on their fishing ships. And what a strawman it is talking about fishermen starving, you still have not comprehended that subsistence fishing is a WHOLE other activity compared to commercial fishing operations. You still cannot see how completely wrong you are on this issue. Anyone living in Kiribati can fish for food. It's foreign commercial licenses that have been banned, you know, for overfishing the fishing grounds, and giving back a minimal profit. And because they're a poor small country with a huge EEC mostly comprised of ocean, illegal fishing is widespread, meaning chinese and japanese fishing companies are getting fish without paying them anything at all. They SHOULD starve, or at least get better jobs. Your argument suggests that people should let robbers clean their homes out, because if not, the robbers would starve. Idiot.
Hehe, I think the I-kiribati name has been around a millenium or so longer than Apple Inc...
If you knew anything at all about commcercial fishing in the south pacific, you's know the government gets paid for a commercial license to fish, because small island states lack the manpower and resources to maintain their own fishing fleets. They don't actually sell the fish, just permission to fish for them. At least RTFA and google for a few minutes before posting a totally ignorant commen!
$46,381 per capita GDP seems excessive for americans, I wonder if other countries are protesting that americans are too rich... Seriously, this blindness to other (read non-western, non-white) ways of life and other problems is disappointing ... News for nerds indeed, more like news for ignorant ethnocentric hicks...
Says westerner who probably lives on a large continent far away from the ocean...
If you'd RTFA, locals are totally allowed to fish, only large foreign companies are banned from fishing! I can't believe this was modded insightful. the point of this ban is to create a marine preserve out of kiribati territories, so even with the loss of their homes, they leave the earth a substantial patch of pristine (as possible) ocean...
I think the poet Wislawa Szymorska wrote a nice poem about how artifical country lines are, animals don't follow them, or oceans and clouds... We're all in this together on this blue mudball, and the depletion of fish stocks in the island territories surrounding kiribati will just cause some of the plentiful fish to disperse to less comptetitive waters, while marine pollution from outside will just diffuse across national borders like it does across a test tube...
A beautiful gesture, but if things get as bad as you say in your last paragraph, they'll be screwed too...
There are no rivers on the kiribati islands, and large barrier reefs keep away most wave action from the atolls... Any shrinkage would be due to either the ocean floor sinking out from under the island, or the more plausible cause, global warming causing sea levels to rise... Why are you comparing volcanis islets in hawi'i to reef formed atolls?
From the title (not having RTFA nor RTFS), I pictured this island nation makes virgin sacrifices to the volcano god and all Kitibatian (Kiribatan? Kiribatinese? Kiribatish?) slashdotters have scattered and gone underground.
It's written "i-kiribati" and pronounced ee-keereebas, thats the adjective for that country. Also, don't knock the pacific island countries! Although poor and tiny, some countries have higher phd/capita ratios than the US (although it's mostly in humanities disciplines).
The middle is the middle regardless of its absolute level. You're saying, in effect, that because of unions someone else who would have been middle class is now lower class.
You either didn't understand what GP said (families with blue collar jobs like his would be much poorer, i.e not middle class), or you're some freetard who would rather play pedantic than address the fact that real life is a hell of a lot messier than simplistic economic theories.
Economically, unions are a drag on the economy, which means that overall, everybody gets less because less is produced.
This can be true, but not the way you think. Unions do cause some net loss, but they pay for this cost by ensuring that those who get the least (workers), get a fair amount of the remaining pie. If you think a company will pay it's workers more (particularly factory floor workers) when it becomes more profitable, you're deluding yourself. The harsh fact of the matter is that the greed that runs capitalism needs to be threatened with a big stick before it acts more equitably to the workforce. You might think "Oh, they just need to find another job." Well in company towns, or when a family lacks the resources (i.e is too fucking poor) to move, there is no alternative.
Historically, unions have gained power through violence, the threat of violence, corruption and ties to organized crime. They have successfully promoted laws that allow unions to violate rights in a manner that no individual could get away with. (Try arresting a striker for trespass or criminal mischief).
Finally, unions increase immoral personal properties: sloth, jealousy, and the use of threats and violence to achieve goals. A person who voluntarily joins a union cannot be fully moral.
Oh I get it now, you're just trolling...
It's sort of like why divorce is permitted but forbidden
Wait, What? That's incredibly acrobatic logic right there, it should have gone to the Olympics, maybe it could have won gold!!
Sorry, let me clarify what I was agreeing with. I was agreeing that it's difficult for new users to find good/appropriate applications when using package managers. Community forums and blogs have done a great job of informing people that want to do the research, but for less motivated/capable people, it's a crapshoot whether they'll find something awesome or horrible. I don't think this is because of large amounts of applications, but rather that they are not arranged and indexed, with maybe tags, and hierachies based on at least: popularity (downloads), popularity (ratings), last updated, and update frequency. Several steps in the right direction were achieved in 10.04 with the software centre, but more work is needed. Hmmm, what I described above sounds like the sourceforge project search page.... Imagine that!! With more coherent settings management (a la YaST) and the aforementioned features in the software centre, thats my dream for 10.10.
In fact, I'd say that Ubuntu while not perfect, at least it has the Software Center, while Windows has nothing.
While I agree with this, there's a cultural difference between the platforms. For Windows, application vendors generally advertise and deliver apps to the users, whereas for most linux distros, distro makers must tweak and distribute the apps themselves through their repositories. What I mean is that, on windows, someone is pushing for a user to install program X, whereas on linux, a user installs program Y if and only if they can find it and understand that it does what they want. There's a tradeoff between apporaches, but I think it would be best if the application makers were to deliver their apps tuned and bugfixed into the repositories of the larger distros, rather than the distros having to do this. It would eliminate downstream bugs cropping up as a result distro's tweaking (Remember the debian openssl debacle?), and the distros would get the latest app versions alongside windows and mac os...
Well this seems like a day for mistakes, my reply to this post is below. I accidentally replied to myself...
In any event, this side argument fails to demonstrate Ubuntu's alleged shortcomings in terms of web browsing.
Oh, I realize you thought I was eldavojohn... Using linux (and even FreeBSD), I have never ran into problems browsing the web, I would never say that... Neither would I say that desktop linux has "big problems". I would say that desktop linux has many, many small problems, that projects like a thousand papercuts try to address. Tiny interface quirks that would never even give pause to your average slashdotter can confuse and frustrate many less able users.
From personal experiece (yes I know, anecdotes are not data), I am a linux/windows dual booter. I do most things in linux, but keep a windows partition for games. Whenever someone I know, mostly uni students non-CS fields (like medicine, biology, etc) , wants to use my PC, I'll let them use it, often leaving them to use it alone. When I come back to them, they've booted into windows to continue reading/watching/listening to whatever it is. When asked, they usually mention some small irritation or surprise (e.g the screensaver coming on while a movie is playing, or the web browser not supporting some windows feature like middle-scrolling).
Often a lot of interest is shown, but this falls sharply upon encountering a "missing" feature, or a little quirk.It may be true that 80% of users use 20% of an app's features, but this seems to be a different 20% for different users...
You consider clicking the 'Applications' menu and scrolling to and clicking 'Ubuntu Software Center' in-depth knowledge
But these applications aren't weighted by popularity, something that should seem obvious to anyone, especially after the example the Apple App Store, Adroid Marketplace and Firefox Addons website show us. Also, most screenshots fail to load, and the summary/blurb about the applications, particularly the more obscure ones, are less than helpful. To a user uncomfortable with linux, and computers in general, this is very intimidating.
My first exposure to Linux Hater was your link, which led to a page where a lunatic is ranting about a font and declaring ogg sucks because it isn't mp3. I think your initial thoughts about that blog were correct.
Had you followed the links, you would have seen it was lunatic ranting about lunatic ranting across certain less intelligent sections of the FOSS blog world. In the last few weeks, there has been much ado about nothing regarding some fonts Canonical is proposing to use in Ubuntu 10.10, probably in their drive to strengthen branding. But of course, because they didn't roll it out EXACTLY like those idiot bloggers would like, you'd think Canonical was violating the GPL or something...
From the GP:
Even with a user-friendly package manager you are still faced with a huge noise to signal ratio created by the large amount of applications that might do what you want, none of which are the application you've heard of.
This is so true, even though lots of good progress has been made, they're close but no cigar. It's funny, because Mozilla does it so well for their addons, and then Apple and Android do it for smartphones, you'd think linux distro makers, who've used repositories for ages, would get it right before them. I'm filled with hope for 10.10, and the Linux Mint derivative of that release...
Following your logic, it's ok that vista sucked compared to xp on release because xp had 5+ years of polishing after release.
Actually, yes. Not features-wise, but for stability and polish, yeah, the old version
is expected to be less featurefull but more polished, expecially when its such an entrenched
pdoduct...
I think bigstrat2003 was talking about applications, as in legacy applications on a modern OS, not a modern OS on legacy hardware..
And this is true, data should not be locked down, so when an application, or system of them (like a business app suite) is not updated in a while, this can be moved to a system that's still alive. I know people complain about feature creep, but the fact is, most updates fix security bugs as well as adding features...
Which is why egg shells seem to stay at the apparent hardness they have now, without getting any harder (or softer) on average. Too hard and the chick can't peck it's way out, too soft and the egg breaks too easily... Also, many birds have a "tooth" on their beaks when they're at the hatching age, evolved to help them hatch from the shell. It's called selection pressure
Strawman much? All that could be done is a work with a single bit added, and a requirement that each time it was copied/passed around, this bit were 'flipped' so to speak, such a trivially achievable loophole around the license would allow trustworthy copies of the work in the community... Comparing two works, showing only one bit of difference, would be enough security for most people...
I thought go-oo also required copyright assigned to them when submitting patches (I agree they're not as retarded as Sun when it comes to accepting patches).. Why is Oracle making an even bigger mess of it? By attaching it's name to the project? And what exactly did Novell do different than Red Hat that makes Suse such a 'dog'?
The term for such as that, I believe Microsoft has termed Shared Source.
If someone's mind does not work fast enough to absorb and apply the information in a few seconds, one is not very intelligent after all... I've seen it happen in a classroom filled with fellow students. The less intelligent need to review the literature, think about it, talk about it, blah blah blah... The truly bright ones just got it, end of story... Now, I wouldn't call this former group dumb, but rather than wait for them to catch up, they should try harder to stay with the top of the pack...
I don't like Microsoft any more than the next guy, but whats the big deal with the conspiracy theories over this? When linux distros have centralized updating and app installation, it's touted as a "Good Thing®" by the slashdot crowd, when MS plans to do it, it's a sign of the tyranny to come!?! Rationality is needed here people. MS has a much better track record of working with third-party app developers than Apple does, their mis-deeds lie in other categories... This sounds like a really good idea for average non tech-savvy windows users everywhere!
I know this is an old thread, but still, you haven't replied to the last part of my post, that pollution reduction measures should be helpful regardless. Also, you agrees with me that temperatures are rising, and that sea levels are rising. All this hairsplitting about whether we are the cause or not is getting in the way of so many smart decisions, it makes me sad...
There are very few scientific facts when studying something as complex as climate, or evolution. How the earth's climate changes over time, how human activities fit in this, is hard to reduce to facts, but the theories fit quite well with the facts, and all this hand-waving to the midieval warm period, which WAS local to a certain region, and not beyond, is till weaker than the alternative, that human activity (particularly industrial activity) is responsible for climate change...