If I sign a contract giving you the right to cut off my arm with a rusty chainsaw, and it goes to court, who do you think the judge will rule in favor of. It's not legal for a company to dictate what you can do on your own time (they could concievable fire you over it, but not claim ownership over something you produce). So contract or not, it will not happen.
What seperates this from any other hobby (from an economics standpoint) is what people do after coding. Sure it's concievable that some wierdos will actually LIKE writing programs and debugging and all that fun stuff. What economists cannot understand is why they then take all the "product" they have created, and give it out to the world. Not only that, but give it out to the work and the world free reign to do whatever they want with it, including using it for their own works. Strange group, those open source guys:)
Seriously, I'd imagine the only reason they are so shocked at the concept of open source is because programming is something they consider very difficult. They also realise that programmers make more then they do (the average economy major that is, which is why I'm a systems programmer) and cannot understand why anyone would do it for free.
Let's hope they pick up some of the great ideas that the Middle Earth team came up with. For those of you who don't remember, Middle Earth was going to be a massive RPG along the same lines as this, but it had some unique features (perminent death being one of the most argued). However, in typical fashion, Sierra killed it and fired all the designers. It was a real shame too, as the designers were in close contact with the potantial game players the whole way through the design phase by e-mail, web, and irc. They were attempting some things that had never been done before.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to see something new and original, not an UltimaOnline clone with lightsabers:)
That's true, and I've seen up close several cases of this type (all were in favor of the employee). The general gist of what I got from these rulings is that a company cannot deny you the right to make a living.
And yes, I'm sure most software companies would frown upon you for working at Redhat while working for them.
However, we are talking about the guy who, in his spare time, on his own machine, at home who submits code or runs an open source project. The company has no hope of claiming IP rights over his work if in this case.
My first impression of this paper is that it is pretty well written for the audience it was intended for. As an Economics major (who is also a full time mainframe system's programmer, wierd huh?) I have run into some strange attempts by my professors and others to try to explain open source in economic terms.
Most of them get it wrong, assuming that there has to be some form of tangible gain from contributing code. The very science of economics tells us that basically there is no free lunch, and that people will not give up resources (in this case free time) when they do not recieve something of value in return. The recent rash of IPO wealth has sort of supported this belief, despite the fact that it was unexpected (unless this whole thing has been a clever ploy of Linus and ESR's to get rich slow)
While yes, they did get some aspects wrong (what do you expect, they are economists:), the general gist of the paper captures the economic implications of open source pretty well. The section on corporate reactions to open source is very interesting, presents it pretty well.
Some NC/IP agreements do indeed cover anything you create during your term of employment, even if you do it during off hours with your own pc. The one our new VP has proposed has exactly this clause.
Although they may cover everything, I'd venture to guess that no company has ever won a case with that clause. The courts have been pretty consistant with cases where a company tries to exert control over someone's personal life in such a manner. For that matter the NC agreements that stipulate that you cannot work for a competitor for X number of years after leaving the company never hold up in court either.
Now, it would not be unreasonable for their employment agreement to state that they won't work on such in their off hours (a sort of no moonlighting clause, which a lot of employers have and is itself questionable in some US states)
Even then, I would wonder if they would consider coding free software work (since no money is changing hands). I would thing that would be looked at as more of a hobby.
I can't claim to have seen the non-compete agreement, but I highly doubt they can claim ownership to something you coded at home, on your own equipment. Any attempt to enforce that (if it's actually in the agreement) would be tossed out of court anyway.
I have to disagree with you there. The tools make the user interface, the kernel makes the OS. Also the Linux Kernel could be replaced, but I don't know about easy. Look how long it's taken Mach to approach usability.
You are right, and I agree with everything you just said. However, the whole reason this was brought up was because someone started by saying that the RMS must think he write linux since he insists on calling it GNU/Linux. I was defending RMS to begin with, in that he has reasons for calling it that. However, I don't always call it that (neither do most), and the impression that seems to be prevelant (although I assume it's false) is that RMS attacks anyone who doesn't call it GNU/Linux and only does so out of jelousy and spite.
it is *bundled* with an enormous amount of gnu tools (and that it would not even run without them).
While, yes, it is bundled with gnu tools, I cannot think of any that couldn't be replaced (with non gnu free software at that). The GNU tools are not essential to Linux any more than a particular window manager is essential to X.
That being said, I DO often write it as GNU/Linux (in fact, it appears that way on my resume!), but in casual conversation or writing, I usualy refer to it as Linux for simplicity's sake.
It's arguable that without RMS, there would be no open source movement. Not to say that he alone was responsible for it, but it probably would never happened without his work along with the work of others. In today's business world where one's values can be bought and sold, it's nice to see someone who never changes his mind.
As for the GNU/Linux issue, he knows he didn't invent Linux, but Linux cannot exist without the large array of tools he created. I disagree that everyone should call it GNU/Linux mainly because if I use the MS VisualDev to create a program called Goober, I'm not going to refer to it as VisualDev/Goober. However, you have to let the guy have his opinion. Many in the open source community do not agree with RMS, but due to his outstanding contributions to the Open Source community, he IS respected.
This is interesting reading. The list HAS gotten out of control and yes, some of it is most likely fake. However, there is a good portion that CAN (and has been) verified. Sure, the extreamists have added (on some lists) just about everyone in Arkensas who has died!
Like any politically motivated document, it must be taked with a grain of salt. I've personally looked into some of the names and found the claims to be baseless, others have been supported by traditional media and court and/or medial records. The strange claims of the Clinton appointed medical examiners is well covered in their local paper (decapitations ruled as "death by natural causes", people with multiple gunshot wounds to the body and head ruled as suicides, etc.)
Last, Vince Foster's case is strange in that almost everyone associated with the investigation has a different story of what happened. Only the FBI believes it to be a suicide, the park police began investigating it as a murder given that there was no weapon near the body. When the FBI took over, they announced the discovery of a gun and a suicide note (verfied by handwriting experts and his family as not being from him)
Ron Brown is an even stranger case. The Tribune Review (a major Pittsburgh paper) ran a story on the Air Force medical examiners where they told that he had a gunshot wound to the head and a "metal storm" of bullet fragments inside that hole. Their findings were taken by investigators higher up and they were told to forget what they saw. Now these are MDs with the Air Force, not some redneck militia guy who carries a gun for when the UN invades us:)
Like any story of this nature, it's to be taken with a grain of salt. Many of what I've read about the Iran-Contra scandel has been blown way out of proportion on the web also, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
I wonder why the documents were unsealed. I wonder why they were sealed.
As to why they werer unsealed, I have no idea. That is something I would like to have learned in the article, but they made no mention.
As to why they were sealed, I also don't know, but it's in keeping with this administration's policy of complete secrecy. Of course, they are also the most investigated admin in history (assumption), so I'd imagine I'd be sealing stuff too, knowing that everyone is coming after me. However, the actions on each side just fuel the actions on the other.
I still don't see any connection to Internet anonymity (timothy's claim, not yours).
I don't either, I suspect Timothy just wanted to post this and somehow justify it:)
Instead, substantiate your claims with facts. Care to provide references?
Foster - (Suicide, right) Ron Brown
Now for the ones you don't know about
Kevin Ives & Don Henry: Initial cause of death was reported to be the result of falling asleep on a railroad track in Arkansas on August 23, 1987. This ruling was reported by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon a Mena drug operation.
James Milam: Milam had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes.
Paul Tully: Tulley was on the Democratic National Committee. He was found dead of unknown causes in his hotel room on September 24, 1992. No autopsy was ever allowed.
Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeahan & Conway LeBleu: Died Feburary 28, 1993 by gunfire at Waco. All four were examined by a pathologist and died from identical wounds to the left temple. All four had been body guards for Bill Clinton, three while campaigning for President and when he was Governor of Arkansas. They also were the ONLY 4 BATF agents killed at Waco.
Sgt. Brian Haney, Sgt. Tim Sabel, Maj. William Barkley, Capt. Scott Reynolds: Died: May 19, 1993 - All four men died when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. - Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." A videotape made by a firefighter was seized by the Marines. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths.
John Wilson: Found dead from an apparent hanging suicide on May 18, 1993. He was a former Washington DC council member and claimed to have info on Whitewater.
Jerry Luther Parks: Parks was the Chief of Security for Clinton's national campaign headquarters in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car on September 26, 1993 near the intersection of Chenal Parkway and Highway 10 west of Little Rock. Parks was shot through the rear window of his car. The assailant then pulled around to the driver's side of Park's car and shot him three more times with a 9mm pistol. His family reported that shortly before his death, they were being followed by unknown persons, and their home had been broken into (despite a top quality alarm system). Parks had been compiling a dossier on Clinton's illicit activities. The dossier was stolen.
Barbara Wise: Wise a 14-year Commerce Department employee found dead and partially naked in her office following a long weekend. She worked in the same section as John Huang. Officially, she is said to have died of natural causes.
Jim McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally, sent to prison for eighteen felony convictions. A key whitewater witness, dies of a heart attack on March, 8 1998. As of this writing allegations that he was given an injection of the diuretic lasix has not been denied or confirmed. Died on March 8, 1998
There are dozens more, look on the web. Yes, most of this is from right wing sites, but some of the better ones provide news paper and offical document links or images to back this up. Not that Clinton is to blame for any of this, it's just he has had more friends die in suspicious circumstances than I have friends.
Assuming she believed the alleged threats to be credible, what has changed? If there was something for her to fear then, there is surely something for her to fear now. Why the sudden change of mind?
She gave this deposition several years ago (if you read the story), only recently have then been unsealed. She hasn't "come forward" publicly at all. Please read the story before you assume this is just an opportunist trying to hurt Gore, she had nothing to do with the timing of the unsealing of court documents.
Anyways, in this instance, what exactly did the Clinton whitehouse do?
Allegedly, they hid evidence (nothing new). Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean.
Some 70+ of clinton's business partners and "close" friends have died in very strange events. Would you come forward without being very carefull about it? Besides, perhaps she just waited until election time to come put with this on purpose, does that make what the clinton whitehouse did any better?
If you in any way suprised that the Clinton Whitehouse got caught hiding documents from investigators, then you must not have been paying attention for the last 7+ years.
If there has been any consistancy in this administration at all, it has been their willingness to destroy/lose/play dumb about every document that has been requested in their back to back illegal activities. But they tell us the economy is good, so let him do what ever he wants right?
Is there any to change the ec.d scripts to sysvinit style? I love slackware, and I really want to continue using it, but this bsd style rc.d system is causing me and undue amount of headaches. One of my main problems is that vmware refuses to run (and will not install without major kludges), and I kind of need NT (shudder).
Well, unless they change the protocol, and force everyone to upgrade, they can't very well charge me for the old one. Besides, in that unlikly case, we juse make an open source clone. That's pretty much been the standard operating procedure all along.
Slashdot Mirror
If I sign a contract giving you the right to cut off my arm with a rusty chainsaw, and it goes to court, who do you think the judge will rule in favor of.
It's not legal for a company to dictate what you can do on your own time (they could concievable fire you over it, but not claim ownership over something you produce). So contract or not, it will not happen.
Finkployd
What seperates this from any other hobby (from an economics standpoint) is what people do after coding. Sure it's concievable that some wierdos will actually LIKE writing programs and debugging and all that fun stuff. What economists cannot understand is why they then take all the "product" they have created, and give it out to the world. Not only that, but give it out to the work and the world free reign to do whatever they want with it, including using it for their own works. Strange group, those open source guys :)
Seriously, I'd imagine the only reason they are so shocked at the concept of open source is because programming is something they consider very difficult. They also realise that programmers make more then they do (the average economy major that is, which is why I'm a systems programmer) and cannot understand why anyone would do it for free.
Finkployd
Let's hope they pick up some of the great ideas that the Middle Earth team came up with. For those of you who don't remember, Middle Earth was going to be a massive RPG along the same lines as this, but it had some unique features (perminent death being one of the most argued). However, in typical fashion, Sierra killed it and fired all the designers. It was a real shame too, as the designers were in close contact with the potantial game players the whole way through the design phase by e-mail, web, and irc. They were attempting some things that had never been done before.
:)
I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to see something new and original, not an UltimaOnline clone with lightsabers
Finkployd
That's true, and I've seen up close several cases of this type (all were in favor of the employee). The general gist of what I got from these rulings is that a company cannot deny you the right to make a living.
Finkployd
And yes, I'm sure most software companies would frown upon you for working at Redhat while working for them.
However, we are talking about the guy who, in his spare time, on his own machine, at home who submits code or runs an open source project. The company has no hope of claiming IP rights over his work if in this case.
Finkployd
My first impression of this paper is that it is pretty well written for the audience it was intended for. As an Economics major (who is also a full time mainframe system's programmer, wierd huh?) I have run into some strange attempts by my professors and others to try to explain open source in economic terms.
:), the general gist of the paper captures the economic implications of open source pretty well. The section on corporate reactions to open source is very interesting, presents it pretty well.
Most of them get it wrong, assuming that there has to be some form of tangible gain from contributing code. The very science of economics tells us that basically there is no free lunch, and that people will not give up resources (in this case free time) when they do not recieve something of value in return. The recent rash of IPO wealth has sort of supported this belief, despite the fact that it was unexpected (unless this whole thing has been a clever ploy of Linus and ESR's to get rich slow)
While yes, they did get some aspects wrong (what do you expect, they are economists
Finkployd
That is really cool. I had no idea netscape had a feature like that. Learn something new every day I suppose...
Finkployd
Or you get wierd, badly formatted stories like this. Methinks the Commander is still celebrating with the green beer :)
For those of you who don't understand this, it must have been fixed. When this story was posted, it effectivly scrambled the main page and this one.
Finkployd
Some NC/IP agreements do indeed cover anything
you create during your term of employment,
even if you do it during off hours with your
own pc. The one our new VP has proposed has exactly this clause.
Although they may cover everything, I'd venture to guess that no company has ever won a case with that clause. The courts have been pretty consistant with cases where a company tries to exert control over someone's personal life in such a manner. For that matter the NC agreements that stipulate that you cannot work for a competitor for X number of years after leaving the company never hold up in court either.
Finkployd
Now, it would not be unreasonable for their employment agreement to state that they won't work on such in their off hours (a sort of no moonlighting clause, which a lot of employers have and is itself questionable in some US states)
Even then, I would wonder if they would consider coding free software work (since no money is changing hands). I would thing that would be looked at as more of a hobby.
Finkployd
even in their off hours
I can't claim to have seen the non-compete agreement, but I highly doubt they can claim ownership to something you coded at home, on your own equipment. Any attempt to enforce that (if it's actually in the agreement) would be tossed out of court anyway.
Finkployd
group of well-meaning individuals has similarly shrank down to a tiny portion of what it used to be.
No, I'm willing to bet that group is even larger than what it used to be. The problem is the other group is growing at an exponential rate.
Everyone said we need Linux for the masses, welcome the masses. They outnumber the origional users and they have very different beliefs.
Finkployd
I have to disagree with you there. The tools make the user interface, the kernel makes the OS. Also the Linux Kernel could be replaced, but I don't know about easy. Look how long it's taken Mach to approach usability.
Finkployd
You are right, and I agree with everything you just said. However, the whole reason this was brought up was because someone started by saying that the RMS must think he write linux since he insists on calling it GNU/Linux. I was defending RMS to begin with, in that he has reasons for calling it that.
However, I don't always call it that (neither do most), and the impression that seems to be prevelant (although I assume it's false) is that RMS attacks anyone who doesn't call it GNU/Linux and only does so out of jelousy and spite.
Finkployd
it is *bundled* with an enormous amount of gnu tools (and that it would not even run without them).
While, yes, it is bundled with gnu tools, I cannot think of any that couldn't be replaced (with non gnu free software at that). The GNU tools are not essential to Linux any more than a particular window manager is essential to X.
That being said, I DO often write it as GNU/Linux (in fact, it appears that way on my resume!), but in casual conversation or writing, I usualy refer to it as Linux for simplicity's sake.
Finkployd
It's arguable that without RMS, there would be no open source movement. Not to say that he alone was responsible for it, but it probably would never happened without his work along with the work of others.
In today's business world where one's values can be bought and sold, it's nice to see someone who never changes his mind.
As for the GNU/Linux issue, he knows he didn't invent Linux, but Linux cannot exist without the large array of tools he created. I disagree that everyone should call it GNU/Linux mainly because if I use the MS VisualDev to create a program called Goober, I'm not going to refer to it as VisualDev/Goober. However, you have to let the guy have his opinion. Many in the open source community do not agree with RMS, but due to his outstanding contributions to the Open Source community, he IS respected.
Finkployd
This is interesting reading. The list HAS gotten out of control and yes, some of it is most likely fake. However, there is a good portion that CAN (and has been) verified. Sure, the extreamists have added (on some lists) just about everyone in Arkensas who has died!
:)
Like any politically motivated document, it must be taked with a grain of salt. I've personally looked into some of the names and found the claims to be baseless, others have been supported by traditional media and court and/or medial records. The strange claims of the Clinton appointed medical examiners is well covered in their local paper (decapitations ruled as "death by natural causes", people with multiple gunshot wounds to the body and head ruled as suicides, etc.)
Last, Vince Foster's case is strange in that almost everyone associated with the investigation has a different story of what happened. Only the FBI believes it to be a suicide, the park police began investigating it as a murder given that there was no weapon near the body. When the FBI took over, they announced the discovery of a gun and a suicide note (verfied by handwriting experts and his family as not being from him)
Ron Brown is an even stranger case. The Tribune Review (a major Pittsburgh paper) ran a story on the Air Force medical examiners where they told that he had a gunshot wound to the head and a "metal storm" of bullet fragments inside that hole. Their findings were taken by investigators higher up and they were told to forget what they saw. Now these are MDs with the Air Force, not some redneck militia guy who carries a gun for when the UN invades us
Like any story of this nature, it's to be taken with a grain of salt. Many of what I've read about the Iran-Contra scandel has been blown way out of proportion on the web also, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Finkployd
I wonder why the documents were unsealed. I wonder why they were sealed.
:)
As to why they werer unsealed, I have no idea. That is something I would like to have learned in the article, but they made no mention.
As to why they were sealed, I also don't know, but it's in keeping with this administration's policy of complete secrecy. Of course, they are also the most investigated admin in history (assumption), so I'd imagine I'd be sealing stuff too, knowing that everyone is coming after me. However, the actions on each side just fuel the actions on the other.
I still don't see any connection to Internet anonymity (timothy's claim, not yours).
I don't either, I suspect Timothy just wanted to post this and somehow justify it
Finkployd
Don't forget that David Letterman almost died after Hillary visited. :-)
:)
She must have planted some anthrytax in his coffee
Finkployd
Instead, substantiate your claims with facts. Care to provide references?
Foster - (Suicide, right)
Ron Brown
Now for the ones you don't know about
Kevin Ives & Don Henry: Initial cause of death was reported to be the result of falling asleep on a railroad track in Arkansas on August 23, 1987. This ruling was reported by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon a Mena drug operation.
James Milam: Milam had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes.
Paul Tully: Tulley was on the Democratic National Committee. He was found dead of unknown causes in his hotel room on September 24, 1992. No autopsy
was ever allowed.
Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeahan & Conway LeBleu: Died Feburary 28, 1993 by gunfire at Waco. All four were examined by a pathologist and died from identical wounds to the left temple. All four had been body guards for Bill Clinton, three while campaigning for President and when he was Governor of Arkansas. They also were the ONLY 4 BATF agents killed at Waco.
Sgt. Brian Haney, Sgt. Tim Sabel, Maj. William Barkley, Capt. Scott Reynolds: Died: May 19, 1993 - All four men died when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. - Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." A videotape made by a firefighter was seized by the Marines. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths.
John Wilson: Found dead from an apparent hanging suicide on May 18, 1993. He was a former Washington DC council member and claimed to have info on Whitewater.
Jerry Luther Parks: Parks was the Chief of Security for Clinton's national campaign headquarters in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car on September 26, 1993 near the intersection of Chenal Parkway and Highway 10 west of Little Rock. Parks was shot through the rear window of his car. The assailant then pulled around to the driver's side of Park's car and shot him three more times with a 9mm pistol. His family reported that shortly before his death, they were being followed by unknown persons, and their home had been broken into (despite a top quality alarm system). Parks had been compiling a dossier on Clinton's illicit activities. The dossier was stolen.
Barbara Wise: Wise a 14-year Commerce Department employee found dead and partially naked in her office following a long weekend. She worked in the same section as John Huang. Officially, she is said to have died of natural causes.
Jim McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally, sent to prison for eighteen felony convictions. A key whitewater witness, dies of a heart attack on March, 8 1998. As of this writing allegations that he was given an injection of the diuretic lasix has not been denied or confirmed. Died on March 8, 1998
There are dozens more, look on the web. Yes, most of this is from right wing sites, but some of the better ones provide news paper and offical document links or images to back this up. Not that Clinton is to blame for any of this, it's just he has had more friends die in suspicious circumstances than I have friends.
Assuming she believed the alleged threats to be credible, what has changed? If there was something for her to fear then, there is surely something for her to fear now. Why the sudden change of mind?
She gave this deposition several years ago (if you read the story), only recently have then been unsealed. She hasn't "come forward" publicly at all. Please read the story before you assume this is just an opportunist trying to hurt Gore, she had nothing to do with the timing of the unsealing of court documents.
Anyways, in this instance, what exactly did the Clinton whitehouse do?
Allegedly, they hid evidence (nothing new). Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean.
Finkployd
Some 70+ of clinton's business partners and "close" friends have died in very strange events. Would you come forward without being very carefull about it? Besides, perhaps she just waited until election time to come put with this on purpose, does that make what the clinton whitehouse did any better?
Finkployd
look at the picture of Al Gore in the Fundraising article. That's just offensive.
Sorry to offend you, but that's what he looks like. It's not written anywhere that every photo a news org prints has to be of you best side.
Emails from 1996 don't concern me much.
Me neither, considering that there are many more recent alligations of illegal campaign fundraising.
Finkployd
If you in any way suprised that the Clinton Whitehouse got caught hiding documents from investigators, then you must not have been paying attention for the last 7+ years.
If there has been any consistancy in this administration at all, it has been their willingness to destroy/lose/play dumb about every document that has been requested in their back to back illegal activities. But they tell us the economy is good, so let him do what ever he wants right?
Finkployd
Is there any to change the ec.d scripts to sysvinit style? I love slackware, and I really want to continue using it, but this bsd style rc.d system is causing me and undue amount of headaches.
One of my main problems is that vmware refuses to run (and will not install without major kludges), and I kind of need NT (shudder).
Finkployd
Well, unless they change the protocol, and force everyone to upgrade, they can't very well charge me for the old one. Besides, in that unlikly case, we juse make an open source clone. That's pretty much been the standard operating procedure all along.
Finkployd