But the CODE was 32-bit, the addressing range was only 24-bit, but the registers of all the Mac CPUs from the 68000 to the G4 are all 32-bit. The addressing system is not the same thing as the bitness of the CPU, though it is LIMITED by the 'bitness' of the cpu, except for kludges like Intel's PAE 32/36 system.
If this wasn't true, binaries from the '24-bit days' would not have run on the 68030 and 68040 (or the PPC) without the CPU going into a compatability mode.
Checking to make sure your apps, ROM, and OS were '32-bit clean' wasn't an issue of the 'bitness' of the CPU, but the 'bitness' of the memory addressing. The Macintosh has never had a 'bitness' change on the CPU.
Ahh, THAT makes sense, the memory bus had 24 ADDY lines, for 16MB hard limit, but was only 16-bits wide. The bus width means nothing in this context though, it's just the pipe. Just like a 256-bit wide Nforce2 RAM bus doesn't mean anything to my CPU, the addressing capability and CPU registers 'matter'.
Well, I consider myself to have good manners, and any public conversation that all parties aren't privy to should be kept quiet enough to ignore. I feel embarrassed when I get a call and someone else can hear me, that's how it's supposed to work.
If your phone rings, you're supposed to scurry off to somewhere more private and/or speak quietly.
Phones should be off at or in any dining situation or meeting. If you're chatting with someone and your phone rings, hit 'cancel' and send them to voicemail, finish your conversation, and call the person back.
I think talking while driving is OK, but only when travelling at reasonable speeds, on the highway, and not 'maneuvering' excessively. All 'in transit' conversations should be kept to a minimum, it's not time to engage in idle chatter.
When I'm driving I answer "This is Marc, I'm driving, what's the problem?" Most of the time people excuse themselves and say the conversation can be handled later
Welcome in, RedHat and RPM drove me to Gentoo as well.
Bounce me a message if you'd like anything, I'm building cutting-edge stagefiles now with 2.6 kernel-headers, and NPTL glibc libraries. I don't mind sharing what I've learned, or compiled.
BTW, advice from a two-year GentooJunkie, keep the CFLAGS simple, and compile at -O2 unless you've benchmarked better at -O3; -O3 makes bloaty binaries that can run slower on modern systems with decent cache.
Just wondering, since I've enever handled a beast like that, at least knowingly:
does it work transparently to a Windows install or do I need special config? Like in the WindowsNT/2k/XP installs where you can select 'different' x86 architectures, or use 'generic PC' instead of ACPI.
Can I boot MS-DOS 6.22 on it?
Can you give an example so I can find one to look at?
No, you've got it mixed up. The CPU has ALWAYS been 32-bit, the 68020 is 32-bit, the the 68000 is 32-bit. The CODE was 32-bit, system 4 was 32-bit, Macs have been 32-bit since day one. What changed, and I was running several Macs back during the Mode32 stuff, was the memory addressing system. The 68000 was a 32-bit CPU with a 24-bit memory addressing capability. A 16-bit address would be limited to 32Kilobytes, 1/4th the original Mac's RAM. 24-bit addresses limit memory to 16MB, several Macs were under that because of physical limits.
Macs until the II series were 32/24 CPU/ADDY, several macs in the '030 series needed 'help' from either an extension or patch to 'realize' that they had 32/32 hardware. The SE/30, IIRC, can address up to 4GB RAM, but much is reserved for I/O and physical limitations peg it WAY under that.
After that we've been using 32/32 for everything. The bus width of SDR memory is 64-bit, but the addressing is 32-bit on almost all machines.
Now we've got a 32-bit OS running on a 64-bit CPU that sits on a 128-bit-wide (or is it 256b?) memory bus.
I think as Flash becomes more and more capable we'll see fewer and fewer Java VM installs. We had two whole departments at my work not even aware that they were missing Java for three months.
Really? I use GRUB, which doesn't need me to reload LILO, so all I have to do is drop the kernel file where there's a grub.conf entry and it boots.
Ahh the joys of a two-stage bootloader.
BTW, I run two entries in GRUB, unik-mpd1 and unik-mpd2, unik-mpd2 is the 'safe' kernel, when I'm happy with 2.6 I'll copy it to unik-mpd2 and run newer kernels in unik-mpd1.
Maybe they're supposed to to that IN THEORY, but in practice I've never seen a PC get beyond IRQ15. Unless there's something masking where the IRQs are really being routed, I think you'll find this is the standard.
it's 32/16, so the CPU is 32-bit, and the memory bus is 16 (I thought it was 32/24, but whatever). Today's CPUs are 32-bit with 64 or 128-bit memory, it doesn't make them 128 bit cpus.
Why did it take so long? I just upgraded all four of my boxes last night. It took five hours to upgrade them all.
emerge development-sources cd/usr/src/linux-2.6.2 make menuconfig... set options and save make && make modules_install && cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage/boot/vmlinux-1.krnl reboot
How hard is that? Are you running a 486 or something? Compiling took under 30 mintes on my 350MHz box.
Alright, I've got a G3 decked out with SCSI as a file server, I tried running OSX on it, but found that Gentoo-PPC was way faster at serving up files to my other machines. Also, I've got 'universal' configuration files, it's a lot easier to have the same tools and configs running on all my hardware (several x86 linux boxes, one PPC linux box) than to run two totally different operating systems.
Also, I run that server totally headless, the only thing I WANT running on it is the kernel, Samba, nfsd, BIND, and OpenSSH. Anything else is bloat. I can't get OSX down to that easily, so I run Linux.
The Mac has been 32-bit since day one, the 68000 8MHz CPU. I don't know if that's why, but the Macs have a LOT of IRQs, one for every device, and MANY more to spare.
My IDE is on IRQ 26 on my Mac, and USB is 28, I don't know what else is in there, but I'm pretty sure the Mac has 255 IRQs and there's no sharing.
This is why hardware for the Mac is so much easier to plug-and-play.
Do you realize that even on modern PCs there's only 8 IRQs? There's another 'cascade' interrupt device that provides IRQ 9-15.
'Fraid not, I refuse to tell any females who come over what the green glow from the computer room is late at night when I get up to piss and 'check up'.
Re:Age is no excuse
on
Beyond Pay?
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Wow, I agree with almost everything you say. You write with a lot of wisdom.
I burned some bridges BAD when I worked at a local University, I had no idea how predatory those people who'd been there for decades were. Now I keep EVERY email, I shorthand EVERY phone message, and I write down whatever I can about when people said to me.
It seems to work to have documentation, my last employer tried to pin a lot of shit on the lower ranks (of which I was one), and I always had that request for something impossible, or bad driving directions to show to the boss; it probably saved my skin a dozen times.
Ahh, CFLAGS. I did a lot of hitting the GCC manual and diffing binaries to see what worked best. I've been hooked on Gentoo for two years, and was building packages from.srpms for years before that.
I've got an Athlon-XP, functionally equivalent to your CPUs, and I use:
I know, you're thinking I must be nuts, but I've found that -O2 is FASTER and SMALLER than -O3 in MANY instances, especially when your CPU has decent L1/2/3 caches (mine's a barton, so 640K total). Also, the -msse -mmmx options are INTRINSIC to the -march=athlon-xp switch, so there's no good done by explicitly enabling them.
The -mfpmath=sse option tells GCC to use sse for all floating point math, instead of the i387 emulator on the chip. I'm actually not sure if it helps that much since almost nothing I do is FP-intensive. My guess is that it really boosts apps that do 'big math'.
Other advantages to my conservative CFLAGS are:
It's easier to manage multiple machines when there's less to change in the flags, all I have to do is change the -march= option to build for a Pentium3, 4, or C3.
I KNOW that when something doesn't work or my system pukes that it's not my CFLAGS, it's something -I DID-. My bug reports are worth a lot more than some kid with 30 flags. And I can safely run more cutting-edge stuff than most, because more flags = more issues to work out before 'stable'.
Compiling is significantly faster, -O2 and -O3 are the SAME THING except -O3 adds -funroll-loops, which takes a lot of work on the compiler-end, and can actually SLOW DOWN code that would execute faster if it could all fit in the cache (which a lot can't when it's been 'unrolled').
I find that the real beauty of Gentoo is portage as a package manager, and the 'build from scratch' capability. Granted, setting my own CFLAGS is what brought me to Gentoo in the first place, but after about a year of tearing my hair out as a CFLAGS junkie, I decided to just cut my losses and build stable, working systems. Life's been much better since then.
Well they don't seem to mind bundling iTunes and Quicktime toghether, I know that makes a lot more sense than adding Java too, but an install-time option (on by default) to install 'Apple Java VM' in the background after itunes and quicktime are installed would be a great way to get a VM back into XP machines, which have lacked the Java VM since SP1.
And why do it? Apple has a GREAT java development platform, and they could sell more Macs if the population-at-large (read: Windows Users) had a VM installed. Imagine a website has a java app, and the IE autoinstall asks if they want 'Apple Java VM' to run it, that opens the door for Apple to get iTunes and QuickTime out to more users too.
Overall it would be a good strategy if the price from Sun was right, which it naturally won't be.
No, I wouldn't. But I WOULD sell it to Apple, who could put it under their ASPL domain and open it up somewhat. Apple could bundle it with their iTunes/QuickTime installer on Win32 and there's be a LOT more JAVA installs out there.
It would really be the best of both worlds, we get the source and ability to improve it, and Apple distributes it much wider than Sun ever could.
Age is no excuse
on
Beyond Pay?
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
How old are you? I'm 21 and I run all the Macs at a VERY prestigious school. I've been running tech aspects of private and public schools since I was about 10, and getting paid for it since I was 16.
Never underestimate the education industry, a lot of the people at most schools are clueless, and it takes a young person to 'mold'to the inbred political culture.
A good idea is to not mention age until you're hired, people at my current job thought I was in my mid to late twenties because of how I carried myself. It doesn't hurt that I live on my own, so I can relate to everyone else who has to pay their own bills and deal with the 'real world'.
'Performance Ride'
on
Hack Your Car
·
· Score: 4, Funny
I just feed speed to the nearest underage goth girl. the insurance is cheaper.
Obligatory Gentoo...
on
Friday Apple Fun
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Well I run Gentoo-unstable, does that count? I'm compiling unreleased kernels with unreleased GCC versions built on a system with a prerelease glibc version.
What do I get out of it? Not much. I can file bug reports so the bleeding edge becomes the cutting edge in less time.
Well a Mac virus would probably need you to enter the admin password, which on any MANAGED system is unknown to the users. As for personal machines, I've found that the VAST majority of Mac OS X users DON'T KNOW their own password, as they've had auto-login turned on.
For a virus like this to work on a Mac it would have to either:
1. find a root exploit, and use it on a machione that Apple hasn't patched yet.
2. Get the user to mount a disk image, open an installer or binary, and enter an admin password to plant files in privileged areas or modify startup scripts. That's one DUMB user.
I'm not dissing Mac users, they're my bread and butter (I manage a 200 Mac network).
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How would one know if they can use this? Should I just flip on Uniproc-APIC in my kernel and see what happens? This sounds HIGHLY appealing!
But the CODE was 32-bit, the addressing range was only 24-bit, but the registers of all the Mac CPUs from the 68000 to the G4 are all 32-bit. The addressing system is not the same thing as the bitness of the CPU, though it is LIMITED by the 'bitness' of the cpu, except for kludges like Intel's PAE 32/36 system.
If this wasn't true, binaries from the '24-bit days' would not have run on the 68030 and 68040 (or the PPC) without the CPU going into a compatability mode.
Checking to make sure your apps, ROM, and OS were '32-bit clean' wasn't an issue of the 'bitness' of the CPU, but the 'bitness' of the memory addressing. The Macintosh has never had a 'bitness' change on the CPU.
Ahh, THAT makes sense, the memory bus had 24 ADDY lines, for 16MB hard limit, but was only 16-bits wide. The bus width means nothing in this context though, it's just the pipe. Just like a 256-bit wide Nforce2 RAM bus doesn't mean anything to my CPU, the addressing capability and CPU registers 'matter'.
Well, I consider myself to have good manners, and any public conversation that all parties aren't privy to should be kept quiet enough to ignore. I feel embarrassed when I get a call and someone else can hear me, that's how it's supposed to work.
If your phone rings, you're supposed to scurry off to somewhere more private and/or speak quietly.
Phones should be off at or in any dining situation or meeting. If you're chatting with someone and your phone rings, hit 'cancel' and send them to voicemail, finish your conversation, and call the person back.
I think talking while driving is OK, but only when travelling at reasonable speeds, on the highway, and not 'maneuvering' excessively. All 'in transit' conversations should be kept to a minimum, it's not time to engage in idle chatter.
When I'm driving I answer "This is Marc, I'm driving, what's the problem?" Most of the time people excuse themselves and say the conversation can be handled later
Welcome in, RedHat and RPM drove me to Gentoo as well.
Bounce me a message if you'd like anything, I'm building cutting-edge stagefiles now with 2.6 kernel-headers, and NPTL glibc libraries. I don't mind sharing what I've learned, or compiled.
BTW, advice from a two-year GentooJunkie, keep the CFLAGS simple, and compile at -O2 unless you've benchmarked better at -O3; -O3 makes bloaty binaries that can run slower on modern systems with decent cache.
Just wondering, since I've enever handled a beast like that, at least knowingly:
does it work transparently to a Windows install or do I need special config? Like in the WindowsNT/2k/XP installs where you can select 'different' x86 architectures, or use 'generic PC' instead of ACPI.
Can I boot MS-DOS 6.22 on it?
Can you give an example so I can find one to look at?
No, you've got it mixed up. The CPU has ALWAYS been 32-bit, the 68020 is 32-bit, the the 68000 is 32-bit. The CODE was 32-bit, system 4 was 32-bit, Macs have been 32-bit since day one. What changed, and I was running several Macs back during the Mode32 stuff, was the memory addressing system. The 68000 was a 32-bit CPU with a 24-bit memory addressing capability. A 16-bit address would be limited to 32Kilobytes, 1/4th the original Mac's RAM. 24-bit addresses limit memory to 16MB, several Macs were under that because of physical limits.
Macs until the II series were 32/24 CPU/ADDY, several macs in the '030 series needed 'help' from either an extension or patch to 'realize' that they had 32/32 hardware. The SE/30, IIRC, can address up to 4GB RAM, but much is reserved for I/O and physical limitations peg it WAY under that.
After that we've been using 32/32 for everything. The bus width of SDR memory is 64-bit, but the addressing is 32-bit on almost all machines.
Now we've got a 32-bit OS running on a 64-bit CPU that sits on a 128-bit-wide (or is it 256b?) memory bus.
I think as Flash becomes more and more capable we'll see fewer and fewer Java VM installs. We had two whole departments at my work not even aware that they were missing Java for three months.
Really? I use GRUB, which doesn't need me to reload LILO, so all I have to do is drop the kernel file where there's a grub.conf entry and it boots.
Ahh the joys of a two-stage bootloader.
BTW, I run two entries in GRUB, unik-mpd1 and unik-mpd2, unik-mpd2 is the 'safe' kernel, when I'm happy with 2.6 I'll copy it to unik-mpd2 and run newer kernels in unik-mpd1.
Maybe they're supposed to to that IN THEORY, but in practice I've never seen a PC get beyond IRQ15. Unless there's something masking where the IRQs are really being routed, I think you'll find this is the standard.
it's 32/16, so the CPU is 32-bit, and the memory bus is 16 (I thought it was 32/24, but whatever). Today's CPUs are 32-bit with 64 or 128-bit memory, it doesn't make them 128 bit cpus.
Why did it take so long? I just upgraded all four of my boxes last night. It took five hours to upgrade them all.
/usr/src/linux-2.6.2 ... set options and save /boot/vmlinux-1.krnl
emerge development-sources
cd
make menuconfig
make && make modules_install && cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage
reboot
How hard is that? Are you running a 486 or something? Compiling took under 30 mintes on my 350MHz box.
Alright, I've got a G3 decked out with SCSI as a file server, I tried running OSX on it, but found that Gentoo-PPC was way faster at serving up files to my other machines. Also, I've got 'universal' configuration files, it's a lot easier to have the same tools and configs running on all my hardware (several x86 linux boxes, one PPC linux box) than to run two totally different operating systems.
Also, I run that server totally headless, the only thing I WANT running on it is the kernel, Samba, nfsd, BIND, and OpenSSH. Anything else is bloat. I can't get OSX down to that easily, so I run Linux.
The Mac has been 32-bit since day one, the 68000 8MHz CPU. I don't know if that's why, but the Macs have a LOT of IRQs, one for every device, and MANY more to spare.
My IDE is on IRQ 26 on my Mac, and USB is 28, I don't know what else is in there, but I'm pretty sure the Mac has 255 IRQs and there's no sharing.
This is why hardware for the Mac is so much easier to plug-and-play.
Do you realize that even on modern PCs there's only 8 IRQs? There's another 'cascade' interrupt device that provides IRQ 9-15.
'Fraid not, I refuse to tell any females who come over what the green glow from the computer room is late at night when I get up to piss and 'check up'.
Wow, I agree with almost everything you say. You write with a lot of wisdom.
I burned some bridges BAD when I worked at a local University, I had no idea how predatory those people who'd been there for decades were. Now I keep EVERY email, I shorthand EVERY phone message, and I write down whatever I can about when people said to me.
It seems to work to have documentation, my last employer tried to pin a lot of shit on the lower ranks (of which I was one), and I always had that request for something impossible, or bad driving directions to show to the boss; it probably saved my skin a dozen times.
I know, I never said which one had more installs, nor does that matter.
What matters is that MS is no longer shipping ANY java VM, and there's no incentive for JoeUser to install one unless something else shoehorns it in.
Without MS putting a VM in their OS, you can bet that client-side Java's years are numbered. Sad but true.
Ahh, CFLAGS. I did a lot of hitting the GCC manual and diffing binaries to see what worked best. I've been hooked on Gentoo for two years, and was building packages from .srpms for years before that.
I've got an Athlon-XP, functionally equivalent to your CPUs, and I use:
"-O2 -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -march=athlon-xp -mfpmath=sse"
I know, you're thinking I must be nuts, but I've found that -O2 is FASTER and SMALLER than -O3 in MANY instances, especially when your CPU has decent L1/2/3 caches (mine's a barton, so 640K total). Also, the -msse -mmmx options are INTRINSIC to the -march=athlon-xp switch, so there's no good done by explicitly enabling them.
The -mfpmath=sse option tells GCC to use sse for all floating point math, instead of the i387 emulator on the chip. I'm actually not sure if it helps that much since almost nothing I do is FP-intensive. My guess is that it really boosts apps that do 'big math'.
Other advantages to my conservative CFLAGS are:
It's easier to manage multiple machines when there's less to change in the flags, all I have to do is change the -march= option to build for a Pentium3, 4, or C3.
I KNOW that when something doesn't work or my system pukes that it's not my CFLAGS, it's something -I DID-. My bug reports are worth a lot more than some kid with 30 flags. And I can safely run more cutting-edge stuff than most, because more flags = more issues to work out before 'stable'.
Compiling is significantly faster, -O2 and -O3 are the SAME THING except -O3 adds -funroll-loops, which takes a lot of work on the compiler-end, and can actually SLOW DOWN code that would execute faster if it could all fit in the cache (which a lot can't when it's been 'unrolled').
I find that the real beauty of Gentoo is portage as a package manager, and the 'build from scratch' capability. Granted, setting my own CFLAGS is what brought me to Gentoo in the first place, but after about a year of tearing my hair out as a CFLAGS junkie, I decided to just cut my losses and build stable, working systems. Life's been much better since then.
How'd you get the Cisco VPN client working under 10.3? I've had to halt 10.3 rollout at my work because it doesn't work.
Well they don't seem to mind bundling iTunes and Quicktime toghether, I know that makes a lot more sense than adding Java too, but an install-time option (on by default) to install 'Apple Java VM' in the background after itunes and quicktime are installed would be a great way to get a VM back into XP machines, which have lacked the Java VM since SP1.
And why do it? Apple has a GREAT java development platform, and they could sell more Macs if the population-at-large (read: Windows Users) had a VM installed. Imagine a website has a java app, and the IE autoinstall asks if they want 'Apple Java VM' to run it, that opens the door for Apple to get iTunes and QuickTime out to more users too.
Overall it would be a good strategy if the price from Sun was right, which it naturally won't be.
No, I wouldn't. But I WOULD sell it to Apple, who could put it under their ASPL domain and open it up somewhat. Apple could bundle it with their iTunes/QuickTime installer on Win32 and there's be a LOT more JAVA installs out there.
It would really be the best of both worlds, we get the source and ability to improve it, and Apple distributes it much wider than Sun ever could.
How old are you? I'm 21 and I run all the Macs at a VERY prestigious school. I've been running tech aspects of private and public schools since I was about 10, and getting paid for it since I was 16.
Never underestimate the education industry, a lot of the people at most schools are clueless, and it takes a young person to 'mold'to the inbred political culture.
A good idea is to not mention age until you're hired, people at my current job thought I was in my mid to late twenties because of how I carried myself. It doesn't hurt that I live on my own, so I can relate to everyone else who has to pay their own bills and deal with the 'real world'.
I just feed speed to the nearest underage goth girl. the insurance is cheaper.
Well I run Gentoo-unstable, does that count? I'm compiling unreleased kernels with unreleased GCC versions built on a system with a prerelease glibc version.
What do I get out of it? Not much. I can file bug reports so the bleeding edge becomes the cutting edge in less time.
Well a Mac virus would probably need you to enter the admin password, which on any MANAGED system is unknown to the users. As for personal machines, I've found that the VAST majority of Mac OS X users DON'T KNOW their own password, as they've had auto-login turned on.
For a virus like this to work on a Mac it would have to either:
1. find a root exploit, and use it on a machione that Apple hasn't patched yet.
2. Get the user to mount a disk image, open an installer or binary, and enter an admin password to plant files in privileged areas or modify startup scripts. That's one DUMB user.
I'm not dissing Mac users, they're my bread and butter (I manage a 200 Mac network).