Slashdot Mirror
Beyond Pay?
An anonymous reader asks: "I was wondering if Slashdot readers have encountered harassment in the workplace, and how they have dealt with it. In particular, when working for
technology-based companies. Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't, to actual personal harassment in the work place by management staff. My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law."
At my age, my job choices are pretty much limited to the low end of things-- data entry, burger flipping, stocking shelves, and so forth.
Granted, I don't get paid as much as most of you probably do, but I do have one thing going for me:
If my boss treats me like crap, I can quit and find a job with a similar pay rate in pretty much the same day.
Berrik
Current karma: Terrible (due to mods without a sense of humor)
The subject describes my physical appearance.
I've never had problems with harassment.
"Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
Telling you to work overtime or you'll be fired is not harassment, but it could be a violation of some labor laws (IANAL) depending on the nature of the job and the way you're paid. For example, if you're paid hourly, then they have to pay you for overtime. If you're on salary, you may or may not be entitled to paid overtime. Most states now are right-to-work states, which means that they can fire you for no reason, and you can quit for no reason, and nobody can do anything about it.
Actual harassment, such as sexual harassment, physical intimidation, etc., is a whole other can of worms. You can and should fight this sort of thing, if for no other reason than to ger the person doing it fired. You can easily find a lawyer who will represent you for a percentage of the settlement. Just be prepared to find a new job when it's over.
- Vincit qui patitur.
At my old job, my boss had something against me. I have about 10 years of experience in the field, but I look young. I'm around 30, but look more like early 20's. At first I thought my boss was kidding around when he'd make comments about me not knowing something or "my many years of experience", but after awhile I realized the guy actually thinks because I look young, I must not know anything.
Projects that I was on before he started were slowly being given to other people, and he joking around finally got to me. I asked him to stop, and it just got worse. And he got spiteful about it.
Eventually it escalated to the point where I told him to fuck off and I walked out. Yeah, probably a bit childish, but I don't wanna be in a workplace where I have to go to HR and deal with jackasses who can't look past a person's physical appearance.
I guy that was younger than me, with less experience and definintely less knowledge, got promoted to a position I applied for, but he looked much older than I did. That kind of shit is plain wrong, but almost impossible to prove. And it happens everywhere.
Do you normally keep it tied up then?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Change "her" to "him" and you'd be right. In the past year alone I've seen two men be fired, on the spot, without a chance for any rebuttal because a woman claimed sexual harassment. Of the four times I've seen a man claim he was sexually harassed by a female empoloyee, NOT ONCE was the woman fired, or even punished. In fact, in one instance, the man was fired!
As far as being bullied into working unpaid hours, don't. It's that simple. You don't want to work for a company that bullies it's employees. The employment market is bad, but not bad enough to stay in a situation like that.
When you work for a company, the company is basically your customer, they are buying your labor.
If you don't want them as a customer, quit selling your labor to them. Don't whine and bitch and look for someone to sue.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
if you are loose in your job, perhaps you deserve to lose it.
Whatever you decided to do, you won't have a leg to stand on without a solid paper trail. So get creative with ways to get your boss to put stuff in writing. It's your only chance of having any kind of case.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
He is of Middle Eastern ansectory and has an Arabic last name. They asked him where he is from. As soon as he told them he is from the ME, their next question was "So learning to fly planes?" There were 2 other interviewers in the room, and all they were doing was laughing.
My friend was a bit puzzled, but kept on answering the questions with a smile. He didn't really know these questions were inappropriate. Well later that day he did get a job offer from them, so all seems to be good.
Later on he found out that he was one of the 5 candidates who applied for the job, and the others were not even close to being qualified for the job.
He isn't pissed or anything, but me and him always wondered if he had would have considered this harassment and taken it to court, how exactly does one go about proving that such things were said?
You have to be very careful in the way you deal with harassment. My brother-in-law has a B.S. in Building & Construction Management, and an MBA, and worked as a project manager for a very large builder, leading multiple projects in the tens of millions of dollars. His immediate supervisor was a very gruff guy, and would frequently scream obscenities in my brother-in-law's face, and at co-workers. Finally, my BIL couldn't take it anymore, and complained to his boss's boss. My BIL was promptly fired. "Sorry, the supervisor's been here longer, and is friends with the owner and and..." It took him three months to find another job.
:)
I have a very different situation. The girl who works with me in my office is constantly demanding attention of a sexual nature that is totally inappropriate to a working environment. She often makes explicit comments about my appearance. Sometimes, she exposes herself to me, and makes comments of a graphic nature. I, of course, indulge her.
I should also mention that I'm self employed, and work at home with my wife
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
I once worked nightshift at my local Safeways.
/not/ in a strong position, where they don't need me and they can sack me any time they want. I do however know how to build against this.
They were always desperate for people. ~every 1:2 days they'd have us working 30mins extra unpaid. Unlike everyone else I wasn't relying on the job so I offered to do an extra hour when the manager was on the floor ensuring I got paid.
The difference between me and everyone else is that they didn't have the guts to stand up to it.
After we once did an hour extra every day for 4 days I said we should go into the office together and come to an agreement. I can understand not doing so for fear of losing the job but similar to me (albeit to a lesser) extent we were in a position to negotiate.
Of course the argument as always is "Work harder".
I think the principle difference between myself and others is that I see employment as a two-way negotiation.
What really worries me is when I'm in a position where I'm
My father employs people, I can see it both ways. It's like buying a 2nd hand car but far more complex and important.
So you hate the place you work? Why are you still working there?
Look at it this way. You are the victim of a faulty syllogism:
Why do you have to be a software engineer? Is it because you like the job? Well, taken as a whole you don't appear to like your job.
Is it the pay? Well, do you have time to enjoy the pay?
I don't want to oversimplify this, because if you demand respect, you may end up with respect but no job. But if you start from the position that you need this job to survive then your prospects are grim.
On the other hand if you start from the attitude that you can survive without this job, and that every person has a right to dignity and a personal life, you can make a rational decision about where to draw the line. You have your line, your boss has his line, and the space in the middle is where you can negotiate changes without having to issue an ultimatum. If you're boss's line is behind your line, then you have to look for another job.
So, we've established that you should attempt to negotiate working condition improvements. How do you do it? There's no magic formula becuase it depends on your boss. Of course, if your boss is a narcissitic jerk, then there is no hope, and you have to pull the plug on the relationship. I'd suggest that you point out he can get more out of his employees if they are happy and willing. Appeal to his sense of leadership. A little fear now and then is a good thing, but a constant atmosphere of fear and powerlessness is poisonous to productivity.
I manage a highly productive development team. Any one of them would, if I asked, willingly put in an 80+ hour week. The key here is willing. My management problem is that I actually have to throttle them back so they don't repeatedly throw themselves into the breach. Today I have people taking an enforced four day weekend because they gave up their last weekend. I just tell other managers they can't keep going to the same well over and over without consequences in quality and productivity. I express sincere gratitude for efforts above and beyond, and find various little ways to reward and acknolewdge them. The result is we have a lot more fun, and in an emergency I can call any of them on 8PM on a Friday and they will gladly come in for the weekend. Respect and cameraderie are incredibly powerful management tools.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Many bigger companies have an "Ethics Compliance Hotline" that is supposedly "Confidential". Has anyone every used one? Was it effective?
Of course, these situations are highly political. So, you call the hotline, the boss gets canned and give you a real mean look on the way out (how many people could have squealed, anyway).
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
First off, what your "rights" are according to me and your rights according to the current government are two totally different things. If you want to know what the gov. can do for you talk to a lawer.
Second, my actual opinion on the matter:
Employment is a type of contract like any other. If you don't like it find a way (under the terms of the contract) to renegotiate or get out of it.
Many states mandate at will employment meaning either side can end the aggreement at any time for any reason. This is "A Good Thing" it means that you can always make yourself available to other parties who are interested in your labor.
As to the comment above that said the employer has extra responsibilities because they are your sole employer... You might think that they do. It's up to you to negotiate the terms of your employment.
If the government stopped meddling so much in the way businesses work, the forces of capitalism would act much more directly on the way employment aggreements function. As it is there are many outside conditions that cause employers to be more cautious and more obvious in the fact that they are looking out for the company and not nessecarily you.
So to put it bluntly. Deal with it. If it violates laws (most of which I morally dissagree with) then call up the government whistleblower's line (try googling for it), call a lawyer, or get the heck outta Dodge. =)
Your life is your responsibillity. Good luck!
~foooo
"actual personal harassment"
If you are at the receiving end, take the following steps:
- Call a lawyer. If you don't know one, go to Google and search for "state bar association" +nameofyourstate. They will have a lawyer referral service. This is a great way to get a lawyer.
- If you can't find a lawyer that way, look through the yellow pages or some other place.
- The first thing you should ask the lawyer is how much he charges for an "initial consultation." This might be free. It should not be exorbitant.
- By talking to a lawyer you will gain a good picture of whether you have a case.
- If you have a case and wish to proceed, you should call at least two lawyers before choosing one of them.
You have legal rights. You should at least find out what they are.My main question along this thread is "how do you deal with a workplace where you are 'trained' in diversity to tolerate everyone else except that they are never trained to tolerate you?
Our diversity training at a Fortune 500 company included information on how to tolerate/be sensitive to:
women
gays
blacks
hispanics
muslims
bhuddists
athiests
I was pissed that those groups were never 'trained' to tolerate:
men
asians
whites
christians
I work in Pennsylvania. This is a "work at will" State meaning your employer can terminate you anytime without notice or reason. They are also not required to pay unused vacation. Basically, any action which may be interpreted as "non-conforming" will get you invited to conference room 1-B. This is the one next to the front door. You are not allowed to clean-out your office or take personal belongings including your coat with you as you leave. Security will go through your desk, decide what is yours and place a box outside the building at 6:00 PM for pick-up (hopefull by you). Five people were terminated earlier this week a couple of hours after their group director held a meeting telling them the rumors of more terminations were false. Employers have us right where they want us.
I went through three of them. Wrote core code for each, then got squeezed out when it was time to get profitable. Startups are abusive by design and you as a programmer mean nothing to them. My advice, a larger, more stable, long term profitable company is probably not such a bad thing. Definately not as sexy, but what's wrong with a little of comfort and security to look forward to?
"Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
make your own compensation. :)
/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
I know at least one leading computer security organisation (name begins with a Q) that makes it's workers go to quarterly report meeting early on Saturday mornings. Once they took everyone to tahoe, but that isn't going to happen again.
They are very bad with giving credit to employees as well
By concluding the post with ...given current employment law, the question immediately becomes a troll or flamebait. So its the evil employers, who have the System in their pocket, to 'exploit' the Working Class? Geesh. Rephrase, with less inflammatory language, please, and we'll discuss. Lets discuss some specifics.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Don't I have a RIGHT to take a job where they make me work long hours and don't pay extra?
And don't I also have a right to go somewhere else, negotiate a better deal, or work by the hour as a contractor?
What is the problem here?
Anyhow, when someone thinks they are getting screwed because they are being forced to work extra hours without pay, the two relevant questions to ask are:
(1) Is the person a salaried aka "exempt" employee?
When they are, there's no legitimate legal claim. The "exempt" pretty much means they have chosen to take a position that is classified as exempt from most labor laws.
But if they're an hourly employee, they are legally entitled to get paid for all of the time they work, and probably higher overtime pay as well.
(2) Okay, so if they are an exempt employee, are they classified correctly according to the law?
The laws on this vary from state to state. In order to be exempt, usually the employee has to make some decisions on their own, have special training, have some control over their work schedule (again, as long as the job gets done), etc.
Many states have laws which make it very easy for pretty much any high-tech position to be exempt, which seems like a good thing to me.
I don't want to be forced to work hourly, because then I might have to accept a lower wage! If my position could not be classified as exempt, the company might lower their hourly offer to account for expected overtime. They may expect to have me work more than 40 hours per week. Then, to make the same money I make now, I'd need to work overtime every week instead of just when needed.
If I felt like my employer wasn't paying me enough (and if I didn't like it), I would focus on getting a better job rather than putting time and energy into a lawsuit.
-=Ivan
(I Am Still Not A Lawyer), but....
Even if it doesn't apply to labor/workplace laws, anyone who personally harrasses you is setting themselves up for a civil and/or criminal court case. You can't tape them saying that stuff (since it breaks wiretapping laws, I believe), but I'd check with a lawyer about it.
I also don't know the labor/employment laws of your state, but I don't think that bringing either kind of case would be grounds for termination.
On the other hand, if you're really getting this kind of abuse, I would suggest that you pack up your stuff and walk out as soon as you can. If you need to submit a two-week notice, do it... but get out, man.
~UP
Eat the Path.
Working as a contractor at another company, I had my contract terminated for writing an email to my manager at that company complaining that he was discriminating against me, and that that was illegal. When I complained to the EEOC, they explained "Since the manager was not your employer, we have no jurisdiction." So apparently it is perfectly legal to harrass contractors! As a contractor, apparently your only recourse is to find another position.
Chistoph? Is that you?
Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't, to actual personal harassment in the work place by management staff
You should look at your employment contract. There are some employment contracts under which you never get paid overtime, and there are others in which you are. In either case, the employer can fire you if he isn't satisfied with your performance. Maybe the fact that your employer tells you to work overtime is a last opportunity he is giving you for making up work you should have been getting done during working hours if you had been reasonably effective (and not been posting on Slashdot).
My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law."
Of course, and why not? There is a small set of things your employer cannot fire you (e.g., your race). Anything else is fair game. After all, you yourself wouldn't want to be forced to keep employing a nanny or cleaning lady if you don't like the way she is performing. Why should your employer be forced to do the equivalent, then?
- where is the poster from? Are they referring to US law?
I have seen sexual harressment laws here in the UK used as an attack following a secret lovers sacking.
Should people who have little in common work together? Are men and women different?
Ot: Sometimes something needs to be said; I'm more effecient working on my own and working with women makes me work less well yet I like to see equal opportunities so I feel stuck.
As with any Bully, bite back early.
How old are you? I'm 21 and I run all the Macs at a VERY prestigious school. I've been running tech aspects of private and public schools since I was about 10, and getting paid for it since I was 16.
Never underestimate the education industry, a lot of the people at most schools are clueless, and it takes a young person to 'mold'to the inbred political culture.
A good idea is to not mention age until you're hired, people at my current job thought I was in my mid to late twenties because of how I carried myself. It doesn't hurt that I live on my own, so I can relate to everyone else who has to pay their own bills and deal with the 'real world'.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
Currently, I'm in the 'won't cave in and haven't suffered' group.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't
In some states this is illegal. At my last job it was well-known that layoffs were in the works, and the CEO told me that unless I committed to working 60 hour weeks I'd probably be on the list. I agreed and promptly started job-hunting. I quit about a month later, coincidentally right when the 10% pay cut they had announced kicked in. It was very satisfying..
At the post-layoff meeting I was talking with our company lawyer and the CEO, and he she jokingly asked him "So, did you do anything illegal this week?" When he said "No", I mentioned the conversation we'd had and the lawyer's jaw dropped. She admits that employment law isn't her specialty (she mostly does licensing and contracts) but she's pretty sure that what he said was illegal in California.
My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law.
I used to be a manager, so I've been through lots of training on this. If you're talking about sexual harassment, there are basically two kinds: "climate" and "quid pro quo". The first is where the harassment makes the company an unpleasant or intolerable place to work. Quid pro quo harassment is an explicit bargain or threat: have sex with me or you won't get the promotion. Both of them are grounds for a lawsuit, but quid pro quo harassment cases are easier to win (juries are more sympathetic). I think they're also worse in a legal sense, like being eligible for punitive damages in addition to actual damages.
Laura, who INAL and all that.
Should our society establish civil rights on the basis of behavior?
For example:
I drive a station wagon. Some other drivers don't like that.
I like Linux. Some people think that it's nerdy to use Linux.
I like Mac OS X. Some computer users (eve n some linux-likers) look down on me for that.
I like to go for walks. Some people get upset when others get exercise while they sit.
I like to sing. Some people don't like the kind of songs I sing.
It is conceivable that an argument could be made that each of those activities is one that could be the subject of discrimination.
When our society begins to establish protected classes of citizens on the basis of behavior alone, there will be no end to the number and types of protected classes.
As such, it doesn't sound like a good idea to use behavior as a standard.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Nothing to see here....move along.