Products that are used on Linux extensively without the company knowing this (because of the "hacked" drivers available), are in my eyes worse than this.
This company shows goodwill, but can't get used to our development model, in which backwards compatibility is sometimes not much of an issue. You must note with this, that a driver written for Win3.1 still works today. So a company does only have to think once. With Open Source OSes, this is different. We don't care about compatibility.
In this view, I think that companies only willing to release binaries should be better supported by the community than those not willing to release something at all. You (still:) can't force a company to release sources, and I think we should (still) say "thank you" for the things we get - including binaries.
Again, I think that those companies showing absolutely no support at all but still profit from "us" because of third-party open-source drivers, are worse.
I think that the essence of this topic is not the question "is a commercial patch illegal".
*This* is our topic: <i>we should probably modify GPL because the legality of a commercial patch is questionable</i>.
Otherwise we'd get the same discussions in court. See OpenDVD. See any court session. As long as something is questionable, the people who can pay the best lawyers have a good chance to win without being backed by any law whatsoever. Justice is nothing more than psychology. If we don't put this black on white, and that famous first GPL court test starts, and it is about patches, this might be overly dramatic.
Hi, As a general comment on all the comments already posted: Todays UNIX systems work hard for POSIX compliance. It's the new hype. It seems like no UNIX today is really interested in earning the name "UNIX" (trademarked by X/Open for standard-compliant Unices as I recall), but saying you are POSIX compliant is really neat - so it seems. What's the result? In my opion, the result is that nowadays every UNIX ships ed and other things that really belong to the past. (e.g. who's interested, today, in the baud rate of a terminal. Maybe some, but you know what I mean). This is not only valid for POSIX; UNIX has anyway a habit of keeping op with old traditions. While I must agree that a lot of the basic principles behind UNIX will survive, I do fear that some of the traditional habits could cause it to get "old", if people will not alter them quick. What do you folks think? Whill this happen, or will we stick to the standards? Thanks,
There is almost no way to avoid this topic online, having DMCA, but also (something like) ELITA, the DVD stuff etc. It's all around and it is worrysome.
Yet, I do not feel like I have the complete picture. You see, I don't live in America. So there's nothing I can do against these laws in the way Americans can do (you know, like going to the Santa Clara courthouse `n' stuff;). So I can only sit and wait what'll happen.
You could claim that it is none of my business, then. I answer with this: America has got important relationships with Europe, and they do take care of "internationalizing" some rules. Especially the Copyright laws, which apply "for the world" (and that is because of these international relationships). Also, when it comes to "new" things, European countries have the tendency to say "how was that solved by the others?". So what happens is that when America creates an important law on a "new" topic, this law will sooner or later influence some European laws as well. It is also important that these Big Businesses we're talking about also go beyond country borders*.
Slashdot is very OK but it doesn't, and cannot, inform people about what's going on in other parts of the world, in such a way that the people of that country will be able to respond quickly. I am also not a politics guy, so I don't follow everything that's going on in my government. And although I write "I" and "Europe" all the time, I know from previous Slashdot postings, that more people in other countries than America are worried.
In concrete words, I think that there is a need for a "slashdot international" that keeps people up-to-date about the international or country-specific legal topics.
Cheers.
__oooO__Footnotes___Oooo__
* The author lives in Holland. The nearest IBM bunker is in Amsterdam, the nearest Microsoft nest is somewhere in the BeNeLux (Belgie Netherland Luxembourg), and the nearest McDonalds, Shell, etc. are around the corner. Just in case you didn't realize how international Big Businesses behave.
Reading this, I must reply. Actually, I've got a completely new Slashdot scope, it's kinda important.
One of the latest saturday specials of the Dutch newspaper <A HREF="http://www.ad.nl/">Algemeen Dagblad</A> there was an article about Echelon.
This is supposed to be a kind of European FBI/CIA project that makes you entirely paranoia. It's just like in the movies, but it's for real.
They filter all kind of info, but explicitly telephone information, to see if there's something of interest to America there. Officially they're supposed to filter only political information to prevent rebellistic actions, but it seems that also the American economy uses confidential info to respond to the market.
As a sidenote, the article told us that "somebody with a mobile phone can be traced to 10 meters precisely".
Ocalan was arrested after doing a telephone. Before that telephone nobody knew in what country he was. Another example is that of a lawyer whose client phones him and is arrested the other moment - the phone being tapped.
There are actually laws in Holland (and I suppose we're not the only one) that a phone company should always reserve a large percentage of its capacity for tapping phone lines.
Note that I'm not some paranoia alien-believer, but that I quote the article, and that the article quotes authors of books, lawyers and amazed ministers.
So if you think you're safe on a phone, you'd better email and destroy your private key once in a while.
The IBM PC has its bottleneck on the processor, being also responsible for I/O etc. This processor also has got to do big work just for backwards compatibility. The remaining time it is just doing NOPs on 500 mHz, because it needs to be fast (they say). This overstressed piece of hardware needs cooling.
Now do the following calculation: the more important the computer, the bigger the CPU mHz must be, and the bigger and noisier the cooler.
So these black heli's can come nearer to more important computers without being heard through the noise of the CPU ventilator (chop! chop! chop!).
It appears to be childish to the audience. And anyway, having major M$ and Linux events at one the same day is like using an orange-and-purple wallpaper. It just looks afwul.
If we were in business, we would look very ugly for having this event happen on purpose during the Win2k release. Even Judgie Jackson would disapprove such behaviour - we'd better give Mickey a fair chance to compete with us! Also, we show that Win2k matters by trying to compete with it.
Hey, if win2k is not important for you, then this date also isn't. If you plan to use Win2k, well then the Linux demo might not be your favourite. If you plan to use both, then you might say that there is no need for such a direct attack, because both have its goods and bads.
I keep saying that OSS is a great alternative to M$ bullpoop, but that we must offer it as a free choice, not as "you're either with us or against us".
Geeks generally are bad at marketing and usability. This is why Linux started as a server system, not a desktop. Companies however, are generally good at this point. This is why Linux (and possibly other OSS) will end to be usable and marketed, once it has reached some point of maturity.
Meanwhile, we can try to add these features ourselves, as we always did. Good thing.
Anyway, Linux is a buzz-word, and generally it is used for more than just the kernel. Best example: mkLinux doesn't even use the kernel, but is still called Linux.
We have got loads of perfect open source software: for the developer, for server use, as well as for the end user. Still, we do lack a complete desktop-oriented piece of software that even Granny can use.
Didn't read anything new here? OK.
Just wanted to state that OSS WILL be recognized one day for its benefits and that it WILL be adopted by companies. Meanwhile, every commercial product has to face the comparision with Linux, which provides us of two things, already now: choice and quality.
Quality: it is already explained here that Linux is (perpetual) competition for commercial products, and competition will lead to product quality.
Choice: Very often Linux is compared with Windows. Very often Windows is chosen best. Very often people feel the need to defend themselves when they step back from Linux to Windows. Don't defend yourself! It is the choice that matters, and Linux is also not God! Instead, it is freedom of religion we talk about;-)
(Just note for sure that MY choice of the moment is Linux, though...)
Meanwhile, OSS has inspired Apple (though yet only server software), Amiga (although you might know that at the moment all they can make is beautiful plans for the future, and open source is not yet fully considered), and many others. Many of these people, individuals as well as companies, also see the need of usability.
So my conclusion: we might not have the best OSS user-friendly system, but Linux did win many souls for OSS, and it is only a matter of time. While waiting (or working on it), there are plenty of (non-)free choices that you can make for your computer use.
Just wondering: GNU says that Apples public source license is bad because it can CHANGE THE LICENSE on any moment back to something commercial. Meanwhile, all those enthousiasts trapped by this fake OSS license work for free for Apple. How do we feel about this? Thanks.
Slashdot Mirror
Hi,
:) can't force a company to release sources, and I think we should (still) say "thank you" for the things we get - including binaries.
Products that are used on Linux extensively without the company knowing this (because of the "hacked" drivers available), are in my eyes worse than this.
This company shows goodwill, but can't get used to our development model, in which backwards compatibility is sometimes not much of an issue. You must note with this, that a driver written for Win3.1 still works today. So a company does only have to think once. With Open Source OSes, this is different. We don't care about compatibility.
In this view, I think that companies only willing to release binaries should be better supported by the community than those not willing to release something at all. You (still
Again, I think that those companies showing absolutely no support at all but still profit from "us" because of third-party open-source drivers, are worse.
It's... It's...
I think that the essence of this topic is not the question "is a commercial patch illegal".
*This* is our topic: <i>we should probably modify GPL because the legality of a commercial patch is questionable</i>.
Otherwise we'd get the same discussions in court. See OpenDVD. See any court session. As long as something is questionable, the people who can pay the best lawyers have a good chance to win without being backed by any law whatsoever. Justice is nothing more than psychology. If we don't put this black on white, and that famous first GPL court test starts, and it is about patches, this might be overly dramatic.
Fill up this hole in the GPL!
It's... It's...
Hi, As a general comment on all the comments already posted: Todays UNIX systems work hard for POSIX compliance. It's the new hype. It seems like no UNIX today is really interested in earning the name "UNIX" (trademarked by X/Open for standard-compliant Unices as I recall), but saying you are POSIX compliant is really neat - so it seems. What's the result? In my opion, the result is that nowadays every UNIX ships ed and other things that really belong to the past. (e.g. who's interested, today, in the baud rate of a terminal. Maybe some, but you know what I mean). This is not only valid for POSIX; UNIX has anyway a habit of keeping op with old traditions. While I must agree that a lot of the basic principles behind UNIX will survive, I do fear that some of the traditional habits could cause it to get "old", if people will not alter them quick. What do you folks think? Whill this happen, or will we stick to the standards? Thanks,
It's... It's...
Hi,
;). So I can only sit and wait what'll happen.
There is almost no way to avoid this topic online, having DMCA, but also (something like) ELITA, the DVD stuff etc. It's all around and it is worrysome.
Yet, I do not feel like I have the complete picture. You see, I don't live in America. So there's nothing I can do against these laws in the way Americans can do (you know, like going to the Santa Clara courthouse `n' stuff
You could claim that it is none of my business, then. I answer with this: America has got important relationships with Europe, and they do take care of "internationalizing" some rules. Especially the Copyright laws, which apply "for the world" (and that is because of these international relationships). Also, when it comes to "new" things, European countries have the tendency to say "how was that solved by the others?". So what happens is that when America creates an important law on a "new" topic, this law will sooner or later influence some European laws as well. It is also important that these Big Businesses we're talking about also go beyond country borders*.
Slashdot is very OK but it doesn't, and cannot, inform people about what's going on in other parts of the world, in such a way that the people of that country will be able to respond quickly. I am also not a politics guy, so I don't follow everything that's going on in my government. And although I write "I" and "Europe" all the time, I know from previous Slashdot postings, that more people in other countries than America are worried.
In concrete words, I think that there is a need for a "slashdot international" that keeps people up-to-date about the international or country-specific legal topics.
Cheers.
__oooO__Footnotes___Oooo__
* The author lives in Holland. The nearest IBM bunker is in Amsterdam, the nearest Microsoft nest is somewhere in the BeNeLux (Belgie Netherland Luxembourg), and the nearest McDonalds, Shell, etc. are around the corner. Just in case you didn't realize how international Big Businesses behave.
It's... It's...
Hi,
Reading this, I must reply. Actually, I've got a completely new Slashdot scope, it's kinda important.
One of the latest saturday specials of the Dutch newspaper <A HREF="http://www.ad.nl/">Algemeen Dagblad</A> there was an article about Echelon.
This is supposed to be a kind of European FBI/CIA project that makes you entirely paranoia. It's just like in the movies, but it's for real.
They filter all kind of info, but explicitly telephone information, to see if there's something of interest to America there. Officially they're supposed to filter only political information to prevent rebellistic actions, but it seems that also the American economy uses confidential info to respond to the market.
As a sidenote, the article told us that "somebody with a mobile phone can be traced to 10 meters precisely".
Ocalan was arrested after doing a telephone. Before that telephone nobody knew in what country he was. Another example is that of a lawyer whose client phones him and is arrested the other moment - the phone being tapped.
There are actually laws in Holland (and I suppose we're not the only one) that a phone company should always reserve a large percentage of its capacity for tapping phone lines.
Note that I'm not some paranoia alien-believer, but that I quote the article, and that the article quotes authors of books, lawyers and amazed ministers.
So if you think you're safe on a phone, you'd better email and destroy your private key once in a while.
Greets,
Stefan
It's... It's...
In the "Slashboxes"*: Amazon.com. BuyBooks at Linux.org: at Amazon.com.
Amazon.com was doing a good job on these sites before the patent issues started (which is prehistory now), but is doing so even up to today.
If this is meant to be a boycott, it's a *weak* one.
(* Can anybody tell me what "slashboxes" really are? I mean, they're in the Slashdot prefs, but I don't understand what they're supposed to be.)
It's... It's...
The IBM PC has its bottleneck on the processor, being also responsible for I/O etc. This processor also has got to do big work just for backwards compatibility. The remaining time it is just doing NOPs on 500 mHz, because it needs to be fast (they say). This overstressed piece of hardware needs cooling.
Now do the following calculation: the more important the computer, the bigger the CPU mHz must be, and the bigger and noisier the cooler.
So these black heli's can come nearer to more important computers without being heard through the noise of the CPU ventilator (chop! chop! chop!).
Strategic, eh?
It's... It's...
It appears to be childish to the audience. And anyway, having major M$ and Linux events at one the same day is like using an orange-and-purple wallpaper. It just looks afwul.
If we were in business, we would look very ugly for having this event happen on purpose during the Win2k release. Even Judgie Jackson would disapprove such behaviour - we'd better give Mickey a fair chance to compete with us! Also, we show that Win2k matters by trying to compete with it.
Hey, if win2k is not important for you, then this date also isn't. If you plan to use Win2k, well then the Linux demo might not be your favourite. If you plan to use both, then you might say that there is no need for such a direct attack, because both have its goods and bads.
I keep saying that OSS is a great alternative to M$ bullpoop, but that we must offer it as a free choice, not as "you're either with us or against us".
It's... It's...
Geeks generally are bad at marketing and usability. This is why Linux started as a server system, not a desktop. Companies however, are generally good at this point. This is why Linux (and possibly other OSS) will end to be usable and marketed, once it has reached some point of maturity.
;-)
Meanwhile, we can try to add these features ourselves, as we always did. Good thing.
Anyway, Linux is a buzz-word, and generally it is used for more than just the kernel. Best example: mkLinux doesn't even use the kernel, but is still called Linux.
We have got loads of perfect open source software: for the developer, for server use, as well as for the end user. Still, we do lack a complete desktop-oriented piece of software that even Granny can use.
Didn't read anything new here? OK.
Just wanted to state that OSS WILL be recognized one day for its benefits and that it WILL be adopted by companies. Meanwhile, every commercial product has to face the comparision with Linux, which provides us of two things, already now: choice and quality.
Quality: it is already explained here that Linux is (perpetual) competition for commercial products, and competition will lead to product quality.
Choice: Very often Linux is compared with Windows. Very often Windows is chosen best. Very often people feel the need to defend themselves when they step back from Linux to Windows. Don't defend yourself! It is the choice that matters, and Linux is also not God! Instead, it is freedom of religion we talk about
(Just note for sure that MY choice of the moment is Linux, though...)
Meanwhile, OSS has inspired Apple (though yet only server software), Amiga (although you might know that at the moment all they can make is beautiful plans for the future, and open source is not yet fully considered), and many others. Many of these people, individuals as well as companies, also see the need of usability.
So my conclusion: we might not have the best OSS user-friendly system, but Linux did win many souls for OSS, and it is only a matter of time. While waiting (or working on it), there are plenty of (non-)free choices that you can make for your computer use.
It's... It's...
Just wondering: GNU says that Apples public source license is bad because it can CHANGE THE LICENSE on any moment back to something commercial. Meanwhile, all those enthousiasts trapped by this fake OSS license work for free for Apple. How do we feel about this? Thanks.
It's... It's...