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Linux Demo Day Advocacy Event
Thanks to Deepak Saxena for forewarning us about the Feb. 17 Linux Demo Day Event. He writes "On February 17th, Microsoft will be releasing Windows 2000, the next version
of their enterprise/business OS. I propose that the Linux community take
this opportunity to inform as many people as possible about Linux by having
demonstration/education events. To help in doing so, I have organized a
group of Linux vendors who are willing to help LUGs and individuals by
providing freebies that can be handed out. For more info on how to
participate, go to www.linuxdemo.org "
It's great that we have people who want to support and encourage the use of linux, but I think that the timing here could have been better. Why compete like this - wasn't the whole point of linux simply building a better product and letting the consumer / marketplace decide?
the same days as micrsoft ones? Let's be realistic: People are going to be more gung-ho about win2k rather than linux, this OS that we've heard very little about and been in the underground. If people really want to get linux out there, perhaps they shouldn't always do the big demonstrations on days where most people will be dealing with microsoft.
I hope that any media coverage that this event gets isn't like the Windows Refund Day coverage. Honestly, someone dressed up like people out of Star Wars isn't going to convince the general public of something, it's just going to make them think badly of what that person was representing.
"Oh, look at those freaks marching up to Microsoft demanding money back."
I think it would be a very bad idea to try to host a media event on the release date of Win2k. First of all, nobody would be there. Sure, you'd get al the die hard linux supporters, but the idea behind an event like this is to gain NEW support, but all the "newbies" would be busy watching MS. Secondly, trying to steal the spotlight from Microsoft is a REALLY bad idea. Although the event really wouldn't be stealing that much attention from the release, it would be enough to incur the wrath of microsoft the next time the linux community held a really big event. I think we (the linux community) should just sit back, let win2k have it's moment, then show up a week or two later and show what you can REALLY do with your PC.
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There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
I think we might be taking the wrong approach. This perpetual attitude of Linux>M$ is kind of annoying. What if Win2K is good? What if it works? What if it's the greatest thing since sliced silicon?
I'm not saying it will be, but give Microsoft a chance. Why pick Win2K's release date? Why not any other day? Why can't all OSes live in harmony?
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-Ravagin
Karma: T-rexcellent.
...of being repeated in 10 hours just like this was.
But it will not because the corporate behemoth Andover has silenced John Katz in some Microcoft mind reeducation camp along with that pitcher from the Atlanta Braves!
John!!! The sky is really falling!!!
Now back to the Andover approved comments and "content".
(No, duh, I am really just kidding, this is intended as humour, get a sense, k?)
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Linux has to stand for something more than just being anti-Microsoft.
99.9% of the people out there just want something that's going to let them get their job done. All this fanaticism does is makes people think that this is for people who hate Microsoft so much that they're willing to put up with less functionality.
Name some high end enterprise features on high end hardware. Please, be detailed.
Ungh
Linux also cannot compete on the number of bugs in code i guess
When we see the new XFree and we see big companies like Creative come over to the linux world then we will see the average user using linux.
But like the easiest to install distributions. Why would the average user need an HTTP, FTP and Telnet dameon running? A security minded version of linux protecting the not so keen user of linux from outside troubles is what we need. Corel Linux has a nice pretty installation, but it also puts ProFTPd, Apache, Sendmail, and Telnetd on right at installation. And Root and whatever other user you choose are given no passwords until you set them. Yep that's right ... all those services running with Root with no password.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
This is more of a media stunt than anything else. What are demodays intended to do? They are intended to demonstrate linux to potential users. By staging one on the same day as the win2k release, we are saying that we will not tolerate and it will appear to potential users that you have to choose Linux OR Windows. That is not what the potential user wants to hear.
Do we not remember when Win98 was released. People lined up outside of stores as if they were buying tickets to a concert. Most users are so blind to the truth, and accept MS propaganda, that by staging a demo day on the same day as the win2k release, it makes us appear as the enemy.
Repent!
I hate to admit it but you are right. I have a copy of each flavor of win2k (Professional, Server, and Advanced Server) and I've not the computer to run Advanced server. and I quote "..windows 2000 supports up to eight CPUs on one server, 256 MB RAM Reccomended (128 MB minimum supported; 8GB maximum)" That's alot of machine. And I do think that running out to crash thier stupid shin-dig is a colossolly bad idea, and will make us all look like a bunch of zealots. Just leave them alone and continue to contribute to the linux community and we _should_ all be able to co-exist just fine. I almost forgot: Linux still does better on my hardware than win2k server does (IMHO)
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
Linux Demo Day is the place for me.
...John Hall.
...Linux Mall.
...2K will flop.
...Open source is top
Open source is the LUG for me.
Press spreadin' out so far and wide
Keep your Windows, just give me that RaQ 3i.
Win2K is where I'd rather stay.
Treaking kernels is hard I say.
I just adore a closed source view.
Dah-ling I blue screen but give me my NT too.
We own root.
Good bye, Windows life.
Linux Demo Day we are there.
As for media coverage and the issue of stupid people, I am specifically asking people to behave in a proper manner. We don't want people running around making fools of themselves trying to advocate Linux. We don't want people who do nothing but say "Microsoft bad. Linux good." It's up to each LUG to try to inform their membership that this is meant to be a well organized, well presented event. Hopefully some idiot won't fsck it up.
The goal is to educate people that there is an alternative. I don't want Linux to be shoved down everyone's throats, but just to let people be aware that there is something other than what the big media machine tells you there is. I don't want Microsoft to die, but I do think there are a lot of small/medium size companies that will just get caught up in the Win2K hype and spend gobs of money to get it up and and running without ever knowing what alternatives exist. Maybe some of these people know that Linux exists, but how many of them do you think have given it a test drive on their own? Probably not many. I'm not trying to go into Intel or some other large company and talk them out of using NT. It's the small companies, with limited funds, that really need to learn about Linux. The idea of an OS upgrade will already be in their mind due to the Win2K release hype, so why not take the opportunity to show them some alternatives.
--
Deepak Saxena
Deepak Saxena
"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers" - Picasso
Seems to me kind of silly to try to undercut the Redmond PR machine (that's what makes release days, after all), whereas if we hold off until March, it's no longer about PR, and more about quality.
You could have an "Uninstall y2k for St Patrick" day the month after... if people aren't *too* busy drowning the shamrock :)
Give Windows enough rope to hang itself before we get a lynch mob together :)
Dave Neary.
There is ABSOLUTELY no point in having a Linux Demo Day that starts at the same time as Windows 2000 is officially rolled out. That's not where the press will be.
Yes, you absolutely want the event to go -through- the roll-out, but you really want to start the day before with a massive campaign to the press.
That way, come the release of Windows 2000, eyes are on Linux, -not- Bill Gates or whoever Microsoft decides should make the press announcement.
The newspapers and TV stations only have so much space/time to allocate to computer news, so the more you can shift the focus to Linux, the less time (and therefore mindshare) Windows 2000 will get.
Just keep in mind, Microsoft has the advantage of numbers. But numbers really don't count for much in a well-planned ambush, and don't count at all if you can be sure that you can strike first.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I'm not the original poster, but try installing Linux on an HP NetServer LXr-8500. Of course, you can't find drivers for much of the hardware, such as the fibre channel HBAs or the RAID controllers. Even if you could, which OS would make better use of eight Xeons, 4GB RAM, two Gigabit ATM NICs, and 250GB RAID storage, Linux or NT? I realize some /. poster will claim that his 486-SX/33MHz with 16MB RAM is faster running Linux than any SMP NT box, but honestly, is Linux ready for the enterprise?
I wouldn't.
Besides, why would MS do such a thing? Linux kernel releases do not get much attention from the mainstream media. Windows releases, on the other hand, do get a lot of media attention. It makes sense for Linux devotees to piggyback on the hype of the Windows release. There is no (or little) such incentive on the part of Microsoft.
I think this could be a great thing. What I imagine is having mild-mannered people setting up tables from which they can distribute linux distros (supplied by various distributors) and maybe pamphlets about why Linux is so k-k00l.
-- My comment is above.
I propose that the Linux community take this opportunity to inform as many people as possible about Linux by having demonstration/education events.
Why? Do you seriously believe that the people that will be considering upgrading to W2000 are not aware that Linsux exists? Who is your little show going to be for... the CTO of a fortune 500 company? You think he needs you to bestow the virtues of Linux? Maybe you want to target the old lady around the corner trying to find a recipe on AOL for prune soup, but something tells me she might have a bit of trouble with Linux, so you would be wasting your time there as well.
Enough of stupid fervor. Anyone that hasn't heard of Linux and its "virtues" has been dead for the past year. We don't need anymore rah, rah bullshit, we need a viable mainstream alternative (please don't tell me we are already there, cause you would be full of shit) to Winblows.
More support, apps, and compatibility, and less extolling the virtues of an OS that isn't quite up to the level it needs to be to be considered viable for mainstream America.
Because this is going to be a Windows-sponsored media "event" - that means a lot of money dumped by M$, and a lot of media coverage, and a lot of attention from the public. That's EXACTLY the time Linux should be presented as an alternative, and the media, many of whom will be looking for balanced coverage (Don't think I'm giving them too much credit-- in this case "balanced coverage" is also more interesting than just reporting what they've been spoonfed) will be more than happy to present another OS-option, especially considering that the mainstream media already knows about Linux.
This will work if we're unified in our message and we have some good spokespeople who can show how/why Linux is better than Win2k. Waiting a week or two will totally miss the wave.
It's free publicity folks-- and to those of you who say "who cares, Linux isn't about marketshare, it's not supposed to be a replacement for Windows, it's about the ART, man...." Uh.... suuure. Coulda fooled me.
W
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This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Do you think that an average consumer version of linux needs to install various header files needed to compile new programs? You'd think the average user would just use .rpm and such for new software. Also, removing the unneeded daemons, such as telnet, FTP, NFS, etc would save on resources and protect against security. And perhaps an option to login easier (no password, just click a button or picture, based on the honor system).
AFAIK, Win2k is only available on Intel architectures, and it's far from being high-end hardware. If you really want high-end equipment, go for something 64-bit (i.e. Alpha or UltraSparc). As for Gigabit Ethernet, etc., I guess we'll just have to see how well Win2k handles it!!
"Code free or die!"
"Linux is much easier to administrate, you only need to dive deeply into the good old unix cruft to get it (3 or 4 years should be completely sufficient)."
...blabla ... security fixes ...blabla ... bugtraq ...blabla... he may not get cracked)."
Not so good, isnt it?
"Linux is inherently insecure due to the flawed security design of UNIX, which it clones. But it at least it can be more secure than Windows 2000, which is even worse. Of course, to get superior security, you need to learn about UNIX, but 3 to 4 years... (we already had that)"
Not really good for marketing, unfortunately.
"You only need to apply 20 or so security fixes to your distribution and look at bugtraq with argus eyes, and with some luck you may not get cracked!"
Oh, no, please.
"While admittedly setting up and administrating anything non-trivial on UNIX is pure hell for any beginner, it will be much more stable than anything Windows. If the poor admin didnt give up. (And
Well, it IS much more stable. Still... suppose the marketing people need something better to promote Linux...
Anyway. Please be honest:
Do you REALLY want to send all that poor Windows people into UNIX hell? And tell them that Linux/UNIX WILL make them happy?
I dont. How about this:
With Windows X you are using a crappy system from a company that repeatedly has proven to be unable to deliver good stuff. If you switch to Linux you =can= get a more stable and secure system. But keep in mind that UNIX is not designed for easy administration. For beginners its pure hell. The UNIX design is 30 years old and flawed. For security its deeply flawed. But unfortunately still the best this poor planet has.
(moderators: moderate this down, please, it lacks expression of popular opinion.)
Crashing the W2K release should not be about bashing Microsoft. It should be about promoting GNU/Linux as an alternative. If you are unclear about how to go about that, please read the Linux Advocacy Mini How-To.
For information about the Microsoft W2K release hoopla, check out Microsoft's Event Page.
Lets face it folks. About all your average person (please don't be offended if you consider yourself one) knows about Linux is that some company named Red Hat makes it. Now, while this is far from the truth and changing fast, the public really has to know what an OS is before they can make an informed decission about which one is best. Anything that helps spread the idea of Linux as a viable desktop OS is going to help, not hinder the effort to educate the public.
The idea isn't to change everyone into a drone (leave that to corporate software), but to ease them into the idea that MS isn't the only thing you can use to operate a computer. In this sense, anything that educates the consumer to alternatives is a Good Thing. Maybe they'll still like Win2K, who knows, but with the knowledge it is not the only choice.
You're reading Slashdot. Of course you like Linux and pc hardware
Is it ?
Or is a 64-way Ultra Enterprise 1000 with 2GB Ram a "lot of machine", and what you just describes is actually a workgroup server, that is not much more powerful than the PC on my desk ?????
Some of us work for organisations with more $$$'s than sense, and know a powerful machine when we see it. What you just described is a souped-up desktop. NT may well be ideal for this low-midrange application.
NT gives you no such migration path. If you outgrow the amount that PC hardware can support, you're stuck. And while a 8-X system is much more powerful than PC's were a few years ago, they are still many orders of magnitude smaller than the Enterprise class systems I mention above.
Would it be a good or a bad idea to wear my white labcoat (see here and here) with a Linux shirt underneath?
My labcoat's pretty groovy looking (I wear it to my high school on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays) and people seem to like it a lot; I was just wondering if this could be damaging to credibility any.
Well, you're half-right. Enterprise usually refers to >1000 users, although complex WAN configurations can justify calling a smaller company "enterprise class". This fits well within NT's capabilities.
Can NT2000 do 64-way SMP ???
Nope. You got me there. You could probably make do with distributing the load across multiple servers, though.
Multi-terabyte filesystems ???
Yes, it can. In the real world, it can support 16TB volumes now. Internally, the OS and NTFS can support 16EB volumes, but we won't see this materialize in the real world for some time.
I'm planning to install a linux web browsing box for my parents, who are thousands of miles away. If the box is broken, chances are, I can just fix it remotely. I see my parents once a year and i really don't see the possibility of Windows running for so long without problems. So telnet, ftp are a must and a plus.
unfortunately a lot of GPL ppl really do seem they are some kind of socialist heroes of the working class. to real socialists its kind of amusing
99.44% of Slashdot readers have never even SEEN Windows 2000. The fact that they are judging it before they see it demonstrates that they have an entirely non-technical agenda, and that they simply want Microsoft products to fail, regardless of technical quality.
Either that, or they don't understand that it has absolutely nothing to do with Windows 95. A majority of Microsoft haters I've met have never even used Windows NT but think that their experience with Windows 95 makes up for it. They use their experience with Windows 95 to judge Widnows NT and spread lies as a result ("Windows doesn't haven't command history", etc.)
You do realize that this event further perpetuates the notion that GNU/Linux exists because of Microsoft, not despite. This is really unfair to many of us. A teacher at my school has a rather faint idea of what the operating system is about. He thinks it is for people who hate Microsoft. I fear he may be right.
I must ask. What does Microsoft have to do with GNU/Linux?
I can see that much of this event has already been planned. Perhaps it would be wise to have the attendees of this event wear formal dress.
It is also notable that actually most people interested in computers at all usually already know what GNU/Linux is, or rather "Linux". But many of them think is an operating system from people who hate Microsoft.
I sincerely hope that this event becomes a Pro-GNU/Linux event instead of an Anti-Microsoft event, but it seems like you are setting yourselves up easily for the latter.
Microsoft has nothing to do with GNU/Linux.
I can almost hear the cheesy porno-flick music in the background, as the dicksize crowd starts pulling 'em out to show 'em off.
I suggest a FreeBSD event, since it is the most likely competitor to Win2k.
www.freebsd.org
I use Linux at work, the RH flavor, and it is nice for the business. BUT UNLESS linux can play MY GAMES, and it can't, with the exception of a few tired ports by LOKI there is no way I am switching and ya know what LOTS of people say the same thing. If you want to compete with Windows do it at home and do it through entertainment. ie games and DVD, The Linux community is stepping in the right direction with the DCSS and getting some response from vendors but they are the wrong kind Ii am afraid. Games are driving the hardware market LINUX should try and jump on that wagon for momentum..otherwise I think the end is fairly plain for LINUX. They will provide M$ with some great idea which will be rolled into some release of M$ and things will continue the same way for 15 more years...sigh PLEASE someone compete on the desktop with M$....
Its a very simple secret:
Technology that is difficult and complicated to operate is inferior technology.
Oh, and of course: Technology that shows you nice hip windows and is easy to operate but doesnt work well is an even more inferior technology.
I personally know how to administrate UNIX. But I also see its shortcomings. If you dont, you may be blind.
Face facts -- aside from a different approach to development and marketing, Linux and Windows are the same thing: operating systems. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. If one or the other were to just disappear, some tasks would not be performed well when the other stepped in to fill the gap.
While I spend most of my time in Linux, simply because I enjoy using it more than Windows, it's not all things. I'm limited in my ability to surf because of an underpowered browser (Netscape) and a lack of plugins (Macromedia Shockwave and a workable Realplayer, as well as Windows Media Player formats that nothing in Linux can handle).
I do a lot of webpage design, and Linux has serious shortcomings in this area. While I can code by hand in any text editor, or use Bluefish, it is simply more practical to use Homesite in Windows.
Office software is another area sorely lacking. Staroffice comes close to filling the bill, but in a world where MS Office has set the standard, asking users to trust their productivity to underpowered and incompatable Linux equivalents would simply be wrong.
And such a rally would do nothing to correct this situation. Constant bashing of MS has done nothing in the past. It's preaching to the choir when done in venues like /., and makes Linux users look like Trekkies with their rubber ears and toy phasers when done in public.
Time should be better spent writing code for Linux. See something that's lacking? Create it, or improve on what's already available. That is the whole idea behind Open Source software. Windows got to where it is partly because it does what people want it to do. As buggy as it might be, if it didn't fill a need, no amount of monopolistic practices would have caused it to spread the way it has.
I have no desire to turn on CNN the day of the W2K release and see a bunch of Linux Geeks who can't get a date and have too much time on their hands waving stuffed penguins and burning Windows CDs. I would rather be able to walk into my favorite software store and find useable products made for Linux.
Actually, you're sort making my point for me. The "you_can't_afford_it" box from HP might cost $15K stripped, $80K fully loaded. How many millions does the Sun E10000 cost? Wouldn't I be better off distributing the load across multiple, cheaper servers?
This is exactly the sort of thing M$ does. I remember being a t Netscape Developers Conference and there were Microsurfs outside handing out copies of ie and invitations to a M$ party with free beer and t-shirts. (I gave my shirt to a bum on the street :)) Anyway, let them have a taste of their own medicene. The point is to tell people that would be stupid enough to buy w2k that there is a better solution, if the linux gets some publicity at Bill's expense, it's fine by me.
The revolution will be televised!
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
On CNN:
Microsoft Releases W2K
CNN will present 24 continuous hours of live coverage starting at 6am EST (3am PST) February 16, 2000. Join anchors Wolf Blitzer and Christiane Ammanpour as CNN visits various sites around the world as midnight on February 17 and the release of W2K dawns on each of the world's time zones. Featured are live reports from Paris, Toyko, Rome, London, Newfoundland and New York, as well as a countdown of the top 100 events in Windows history.
(And yes, it will be almost this bad.)
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Tempfiles fugit.
From a multi-billon dollar company you can expect well designed, ergonomic, secure, stable, and easy to use stuff. Unfortunately, the company in question doesnt deliver it (and I dont mean Red Hat).
From a bunch of loosely organized hobby programmers you cannot expect anything like that.
Impressingly the stuff delivered by this bunch is superiour in many regards when compared to the things delivered by the specific multi-billion dollar company.
Still, it is a mistake to lie to people about Linux. Linux is not easy. Not to use, not to administrate. This will improve. But it isnt now.
And people should be aware of this before they try it.
I personally was, but I started with kernel 1.2, anyway.
What vapourware? Win2k is actually shipping this month pre-installed on Dell computers.
Where is the USB support for Linux?
"Stupid enough to buy w2k" ? Um have you tried windows 2000? Wouldn't it make sense to buy it if it worked for that person? Or is every Windows user now "stupid" as Linux is obviously a better solution in every way imaginable? Hold that banner up high smartin and chant "Linux is all about choice, the only choice we let you have is Linux"
Why doesnt RedHat do a commercial? This would boost the public awareness.
Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
It appears to be childish to the audience. And anyway, having major M$ and Linux events at one the same day is like using an orange-and-purple wallpaper. It just looks afwul.
If we were in business, we would look very ugly for having this event happen on purpose during the Win2k release. Even Judgie Jackson would disapprove such behaviour - we'd better give Mickey a fair chance to compete with us! Also, we show that Win2k matters by trying to compete with it.
Hey, if win2k is not important for you, then this date also isn't. If you plan to use Win2k, well then the Linux demo might not be your favourite. If you plan to use both, then you might say that there is no need for such a direct attack, because both have its goods and bads.
I keep saying that OSS is a great alternative to M$ bullpoop, but that we must offer it as a free choice, not as "you're either with us or against us".
It's... It's...
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
Yes, there is a learning curve. But just because you have to learn something new doesnt mean you have to trash it. I dont know about most people but I like to think for myself. When I first heard about linux (sept 1994) I was amazed at what control and power it gave the user. I had never used unix before only waited for the day I took COS 250 (Unix programming in C) to get my CS login on our digital Unix boxen in the CS lab. But here was a Unix like OS that I could install for free on my home PC. I didnt know a thing about it but was ready to learn, and at that time you archied/gophered HOW-TO's inorder to do anything.
The concept of Virtual consoles blew me away and the fact that It came with a free C compiler just made me allocate more for it than DOS. I think Linux is ready for the desktops of those who are willing to learn something new everyday and not those who would rather "just do it".
Each OS has its strengths and weaknesses lack of applications for Linux. Lack of stability for windows (NT/95 Go ahead I dare you to install SP6 on your mail server) Just use the one that you feel is geared towards your personality.
Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
Just out of curiousity, can Linux "do 64-way SMP" or "Multi-terabyte filesystems"? I don't believe so. BTW, Win2k may not be as scalable as anyone would like, but check out Data Center 64 (the new enterprise OS). It can do what you want.
If people want to get Linux into the average consumer market's hands, there are quite a few things that need to be done.
1) Lock everything down. Any service running at all is theoretically vulnerable to some form of attack. While it is great the you can administer through telnet and everything else, the average person has no use for it. Open ports have no purpose on most consumer's machines. Uncle Bob isn't going to be telnetting into his box to read his mail. If someone's UNIX guru son decides to set up a box for his parents that he can take care of remotely, great.... but if you are doing that, it probably isn't too much trouble to go through the machine and open up the services you need. It is, however, a lot of trouble for the average newbie to go through and lock down unneeded services. Linux gets a bad name if a major exploit is discovered in sendmail and half the consumer market is vulnerable to it..... say goodbye to that security reputation. The average consumer we are marketing it to wont know how to apply the patch, they only know that their box was rooted and all the personal data they had on it was taken.
2) (Getting off the topic of your post, but I'm ranting) The user should never have to touch a CLI. Keep in mind this is a consumer we are talking about here... one who probably couldn't figure out DOS, let alone the intricacies of the mount command every damn time they wanted to put a cd in the drive (yes, I know supermount is coming). Screw make, screw RPM... For the consumer market, Linux needs something like Install Shield... a lesson should be taken from windows here... everything can be done from the GUI, adding programs to the Start Menu does not require editing a text file, installing and removing software does not require foreign command lines.
Before you start saying that Linux is viable for home users, look at who we are talking about here. Linux is not yet an alternative for:
1) The 16 year old girl with an AOL account who wants to talk to friends on ICQ.
2) An elderly person who is already having trouble seeing, the current font support in most UNIX web browsers is lacking, text just looks blocky and it is sometimes hard on my 21 year old eyes, I wonder what it looks like for those 60+.
3) The teenage boy who wants to play the latest game (support isn't quite there yet, plus the drivers for a lot of common video cards suck. I believe the TNT2 under Quake3 is an example)
4) Mom, who wants to do word processing and print stuff on her recent HP Printer (most of those printers coming with the computer deals at Best Buy are Win printers)
6) Dad, who wants to balance his checking account (are there any viable Linux alternatives to quicken out there)
7) Anyone who wants to browse the web on their brand spanking new computer from $MAJOR_MANUFACTURER. I have yet to see a new system for under 1000 bucks that comes without a winmodem. If your talking about Linux as a free OS, lets do some math here:
1 Copy of RedHat, about 50 bucks (its the one everyone buys because it's well known, right?)
1 Basic lousy hardware modem (probably won't connect any better that a win modem), 60 bucks
Total cost: about 110 plus tax.
1 copy of win98, about 99 bucks plus tax(ostensibly free because they bought it with their computer).
Looks like Windows is ahead on this one, especially since it does everything the average consumer needs right now. Yes, it is unstable, but for most applications, it doesn't matter. I personally have never lost any work due to a crash. BTW, I'm running win2k final right now, and am working on about a 2 week uptime. I have not had it crash yet, the only times I have had to reboot were after I added new hardware, which autodetected perfectly.
Linux is good for:
1) Sysadmins
2) Hobbiests who like to screw around with Unix for fun.
3) "Power Users" who tend to do a lot of work and need an OS that can keep up with them.
4) People who have it inflicted upon them by sysadmin family members, who want to lock it down so they don't get any 3am support calls. I personally would rather have my family running win98 that they could play with and install their own crap on. My family can install anything they want without having to call me about it, and it usually doesn't screw up, but when it does, a reinstall (of the program)gets everything back together in short order.
BTW, before anyone labels me a M$ supporter, the minority of my computers run windows. OS's I'm currently running on my personal machines:
Win2k (main box)
Win95 (p100 laptop)
Solaris 7 (Sparc2)
Linux (suse) (p90, k5-133, 2 486's)
BeOS (Cyrix MediaGX)
I use Windows as my main operating system because I can do nearly everything I need to on it. I switch among the unices when I want to do development or networking stuff.
Don't say Linux is viable for the average user, because it isn't... yet.
W2kAS can support such hardware, but it's not needed. I've seen it running on a PIII-450 with 128MB RAM and, it was slick.
If you like Linux, use it! Why waste your time protesting. With so much Linux publicity everywhere, you don't really need to create more: if people want to find out about Linux they can.
People aren't completely trapped with Microsoft anymore.
Some people like Windows 2000. Let them use it - after all, if they like it, why not? Instead of wasting your time demonstrating, why not stay at home coding or doing something useful or enjoyable to you?!
But then, on a similar note, if you like protesting just for the heck of it, don't let me discourage you! :-)
I'm surprised by all the negative comments about having some public Linux events on the day of Windows2000 release. I agree there shouldn't be people picketing stores, or trying to disuade people from buying Windows2000. But let's be objective here.
Linux can't afford multi-million dollar ad campaigns. The suggestion for linux enthusiasts to go out and make some noise about the OS is a great idea.
And, in response to the comments about "how would you like it if windows rallied users to protest Linux releases.".. you've got to be kidding. Can you picture a bunch of guys in suits and ties dressing up as 4 color flying windows icons or that cute little paper clip and picketing outside a CompUSA. I'd like to see that. ^_^
Cheers.
-Paul
"I'm nobody suspicious... That makes me sound even more suspicious, doesn't it?" - Spike (Cowboy Bebop)
> M$ bullpoop, but that we must offer it as a free
> choice, not as "you're either with us or against us".
Agreed. But most people a)don't know that there is a viable choice, or b) if they have heard of Linux, are not going to go out and install it on their own. This gives them an opportunity to see what Linux is all about and find out about the local Linux community.
I concurr, the date might not be the best, but like I said below(above?), most people are not doing something on the 17th itself. They're doing something that weekend(19th) or waiting another week before doing anything. It's the principle more than the actual event details that matter: Let people know that there is choice.
--
Deepak Saxena
Deepak Saxena
"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers" - Picasso
We've had this discussion on our local lug listserve, i've heard many positions on it, and can only come to the conclusion that it's a one of the worst ideas.
Linux has not come this far by going head to head with the fud-master!
Unfortunately many linux enthusiasts are starting to emulate the ways that the Opensource movement has despised.
Advocacy is something that is done on a daily basis, not just for one event. I wonder how many of the rocket scientists here on /. are actively participating in their local Linux User Group? , and if one's not available, starting one? Here in Phoenix we have a couple of very active LUG's, with leaders that are motivated and actually follow thru, to make every meeting worth the time to attend.
I will not be participating in any W2K/Linux activism, instead I will continue to work with our LUG, which is currently developing a pilot project to introduce linux into our local school systems, and insuring that our teachers have the skills required to utilize these systems. As well I will keep plugging along, enhancing my linux skills so when the business requirement at work comes, and it's between a NT box and a linux box, i can effectively and with confidence recommend and implement Linux.
On another note, if your going to write an article or rebuttal on the win/lin debate, use the following article as an example on how not to introduce more FUD into the industry. This guy had an excellent opportunity to take and admin's comments line by line and give facts, but it was not to be, the linux-nazi rears his ugly head once again.
Lame Linux Rebuttal
Well, why do "trained professional" programmers demand integrated graphical development environments for they work? Why do most of them refuse to exclusively work with vi, some xterms, and some scripts?
But the user interface is not the main beef I have with UNIX. Its the flawed design and amount of chaos below that interface.
Microsoft had a chance to do a fresh start and create a new and well designed system. But, as we now, they didnt use that chance.
As has been pointed out, this could be a really bad idea. Completely apart from the risk of annoying Microsoft, looking petty, etc., scheduling against Microsoft's release will fail because it doesn't underline Linux's real advantages. This should be about why people should want to use Linux instead of why they should hate Microsoft.
To do that, we should take advantage of a positive, Linux centered event, and the release of kernel 2.4 seems like a perfect opportunity. It's an event of roughly comprable significance (within the community) to the Win2K rollout, and it provides an opportunity to show Linux's strengths. You could point out that when you want to start running the latest version of Linux, you only need to download the latest source, make it, install it, and reboot. No upgrading your hardware because of system bloat, no hideously expensive upgrade cost, and no waiting until Service Pack 1 comes out until it actually works as promised.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I dunno where you get all these pessimists bashing Linux Demo Day (probably the same bunch that didn't understand why the Casio MP3 watch was cool)... doesn't anyone remember The Great Linux Revolt of '98 for the Win98 launch? That was cool and got plenty of media attention.
F0 07 C7 C8
You're creating a "Linux Advocacy Day" ?????
Come On! Don't you understand that by doing this, you're only putting the ball further in Microsoft's court by giving them power over you? You're letting them force you to whine to the public about how "Linux is soooo much better" and "Microsoft is the Devil Incarnate" and all that crap.
People, especially consumers, don't like cry-babies.
Make every day a Linux day. Don't wait until Microsoft makes a move to make your own!
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Lyell E. Haynes
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
You are right.
Microsoft really has money to make enough noise to cast full media silence upon the planned Linux activism event. I think postponing the event for a week or two might be a good idea. There's bound to be some f*ckups with the w2k, they just need some time to come out.
Hahaha! That was great, man. It's just too funny: Dark Lord of Sith, Darth Gates. Muahaha. I bet his light saber sometimes suddenly goes blue and turns itself off...
- as I'm sure you meant to say. Or for a corrollary - A bad workman always blames his tools. - Idea - engage brain before posting. Think it will catch on??
Ahem, shouldn't ppl be going about convincing public institutions that they should support Linux? Imagine the numbers of new Linux users flocking to the penguin each day when libraries and public schools have their PCs running Linux (and imagine all the tax writeoffs the distros could be receiving). Start with the grass-roots campaign, then we'll have M$ where we want him.
Only aspiring members of the real world use phrases such as '.. know how the real world works' . I think you've fallen into MS'es mind-trap. You think that its acceptable for a company like MS to expect you to learn another complicated OS from scratch. Who pays for the lost productivity meanwhile??? (hint - not MS). *NIX users never have to re-learn things from scratch. *NIX has evolved steadily over 30 yrs. Thus *NIX users steadily add to their knowledge and I bet that hour for hour they learn to achieve more than you would while you learned DOS, Win 3.0, Win 3.1, Win95 , Win98 /NT 3.5, 3.51, 4 , W2000 (pro, server, dataserver).
I think most people talking here are not actually reading the website. The idea is not to bash M$ but to inform people that they have a choice to in OS. I do agree that the timing is bad, but unless you get some publicity there is no other way to get the events out to Windows everyday users. Unless someone starts advertising, either through donations or from their own pocket, the only way that a choice is even going to be announced to most people is through word of mouth. Now that is good enough for a while but when you would like support to improve many of the standards in the computer industry. Now I think the idea behind the Linux support day is good but timing definitely needs to be looked at again.
Leader of the Purple, Leaf-Eating, Open Source Advocates.
-- brought to you by the author of the above post.
-- brought to you by the author of the above post.
So I told him lInuX RuLeZ and M$ blows, then hit him really hard with my penguin purse
He got his kids out of the Sharper Image store in the mall and they chased me through Sears and stuff, then the kicked my ass just because I am a geek.
I cried for John Katz to write an article about me but Andover is controlling his brain now I can't type too long because my wrist supports were in my penguin purse and the security guard has it.
First of all, it's a Communist operating system, so even if you do want to read the source code, it's all in Russian or Cyrillic or whatever the hell it's called. It's a pathetic operating system. If you use it, the government will come over and take all of your land away. That's what commies deserve. Use Windows 2000, the Christian alternative to all of the putrid dreck that's been floating around in the past couple of years. People who use software should pay for it, and that money should go to the people who wrote it. That is God's way. Use anything else and you're itching for eternal torture in the Lake of Fire.
Then I will pray for you. Capitalism is the only acceptable Christian economic system, because it is the only system that has been blessed by God. Socialists and communists are doomed to a life of eternal torture. This is why Linux and other operating systems like it are so universally despised by true people of faith. They are an eyesore; they are an offense to God. I sincerely hope that you take some time and reconsider before it is too late. For I will only be able to say "I told you so."
Oh, come on.... Why would I go around calling BillGates Satan? Do I go around calling you human, maybe?
An IBM System/390. Hows that for high end hardware? (Which Linux supports, of course.)
NT gives you no such migration path
PC technology is growing at an accelerated rate - that's why it's catching up with Sun etc.
Besides, ATM you can always upgrade to a 32way 64GB Windows 2000 Datacentre server. And if you really want to, wolfpack several servers together into a nice cluster.
Ok, ok all yeah first time post on slash, so go ahead and make the jokes..:-) Anyways, by no means am i a 'puter geek...I'm worse.. i'm a econ geek that is starting a comp. what i wanted to know from ya'll "gods of bytes" is if corel's linux os is really better than windows, and if when corels office suite might be launched. Reason? well if it as good as window's and it is less expensive than "uncle billies" then i just might use it on the systems we will be giving away. Also, is there any "conversion" programs that allow a window prog run on linux? that's it mike lawson ceo/pres 2kwel.com
If you want a Linux day, it should be Linux co-existance day. Show people how to install Win2K AND Linux on the same machine. Also,alot of people will have to buy new computers to run Win2K. Show people how they can turn their old machine into a nifty little server.
While people are in the mindset to "upgrade" their OS, show them how to install multiple operating systems. Its alot easier to get people to partition their drives now than later (since most people don't own partition magic).
Now instead of a Linux vs. Windows event, you have Linux showing you how to get more out of your Win2K upgrade.
If was all excited about running Win2K and some guy started telling my how Linux was so much better I would immediately be turned off. But if someone offered to show me how I could get Win2K and this "linux thing I have heard about" both installed, then I would see that as a favor!
On a seperate note. Regardless of what is under the hood, Win2k is really nice on the surface. It installed fast and I think I only had to reboot once from start to finish to get all my hardware installed and networking up and running. It has not crashed yet and it seems to run faster than Win98 did on my system. (but I also installed a faster hard drive so....).
I tend to buy products on the track record of the company and their previous products. Hmm, windows nt, gee my office mate who uses it was just screeming at a blue screen of death not more than an hour ago. Hmm, 40+ million lines of new code in w2k from a company that can only get something somewhat stable after selling you half a dozen upgrades. Yes, i'd say that anyone who has ever used nt and goes out and buys w2k because they hope that somehow it will be stable is stupid. Anyone that doesn't use nt and is thinking about w2k should really look around for something better.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Ok, ok all yeah first time post on slash (ok not really but first on linux), so go ahead and make the jokes..:-) Anyways, by no means am i a 'puter geek...I'm worse.. i'm a econ geek that is starting a comp. what i wanted to know from ya'll "gods of bytes" is if corel's linux os is really better than windows, and if when corels office suite might be launched. Reason? well if it as good as window's and it is less expensive than "uncle billies" then i just might use it on the systems we will be giving away. Also, is there any "conversion" programs that allow a window prog run on linux? that's it mike lawson ceo/pres 2kwel.com
Please read above article and notice the FLAMEBAIT
Hrm, what about Windows 2000 Datacentre?
64way, 64GB in one server, capable of being clusterable.
And microsoft pays lots of attention to threading (just look at COM+), which makes 64way REALLY mean a lot.
sorry for the double post...still tring to fig out slash's weird posting system
Linux users crying "we are ok too" on the same days as win2k is released, along with the big $$$ hoopla is just going to show how sad linux is in the promotion and PR departments. "we are almost as good"
linux is better, and should start taking the lead, not following the blind man.
A linux rally a week BEFORE, would do much better, and actually have some type of effect. Why would somebody who just bought NT2K bother to worry abou t linux? give linux to them a week before, and they just might take the time to see that it's better.
But it will still be easier for the average clueless user than setting up Linux.
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
To save myself from the cries of "Microsoft apologist", I also run Linux and OpenBSD, extensively.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
eight CPUs on one server, 256 MB RAM blah blah ... blah blah? Oh, I forget, this is the bit where he mentioned '8 GB', the bit that would destroy the argument you make in the next paragraph inflating your ego by the fact that it talks about a two gig machine.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
Sorry, but they probably don't even know that much. They probably think of Linux as being some sort of anti-MS movement, and know little or nothing else. Personally, before I came to a tech school, all I knew was that it was based on something called Unix... without having any idea what that meant. Now, of course, I know better... :^)
But anyway, my point is that we DO need better education concerning Linux. Don't assume people know much, but don't talk down to them, either. It has to be an individualized approach.
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
Uh whooptie, does this mean that any future Linux installs should be judged by the 1.x kernel tree? Is Redhat 6 the same as Redhat 4? If we took a Redhat 4 box today, how many upgrades would it need to be secure and bug free? There is no need to "hope" for stability, just find a Win2K beta tester and ask them what their experiences have been. The majority will tell you the same thing. On supported hardware with microsoft certified drivers Win2K is rock solid.
Once again, open source, _closed mind_, we are slashdot
OEM's (Compaq, Dell, etc.) has got the final build since sometime in December and will roll out PC's with Win2k installed on 24. January...
Kernel 2.2.14 is out by then.
XFree 3.3.6
gcc 2.95
Updated Gnome 1.0.55
Installer fixes
glibc 2.1.3
Full crypto with ssh and gnupg ?
A nice stable distro to use while we watch the trouble with RH 7.0 (because of brand new kernel 2.4 and XFree 4.0) and everyone asks for RH 7.1 :-). Redhat would get a lot of free marketing, and users will be hunting for something stable, while they are staring at their "upgraded" blue screens.
RFC1925
doing it at the same time is a death sentance, and an all around bad idea.
About a week beforehand, and you'll get the optimum effect of getting people who are anxious for a new OS, yet have time to experiment before making their final choice.
doing it at the same time is a very, very bad idea. please don't.
The Linux Advocacy mini-HOWTO
There, I have linked to my $0.02.
--Have a Johsonville brat.
What would be great would be if the W2K release was pushed back a week. Then we could give them a brand-spanking-new copy of Debian 2.2 or something, and say "Tired of waiting? Test-drive this while you wait."
And let them have The Experience.
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"I already have all the latest software."
Macromedia Flash is available for Linux, but there is no Linux version of Shockwave. RealPlayer G2 for Linux is probably permanently stuck in feature poor alpha since RP brought out a new player, currently only for Windows. And Realplayer 5 can no longer be configured as a plugin, only as a stand-alone application.
Are there any systems out there running NT (any version) with these levels of performance and scalability ? I'm not aware of any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.