We can stop this entire thread right now. By saying that JC wants to rewrite the Linux "IP Stack" they're implying that someone as network knowledgable as he is would infer that latency is an artifact of it.
Bzzzzzzt.
Latency is caused by a ton of factors - and the IP stack, unless you're talking about running thousands of clients on a single, multi-processor machine, aint really one of them.
As in, the network guys where I work took all of the NT servers offline for fear of as-of-yet undiscovered virii.
People just don't seem to be able to THINK about things. For instance, if the box has a virus that goes into effect when the clock rolls over, isn't it pretty damned likely to activate as soon as you turn the box back on?
In what way is taking the machines offline staving off the date rollover? It aint - all you're doing is postponing FINDING and having a chance to FIX all the problems.
Might as well let it happen on the night when no one expects things to work right anyways.. Who cares about some dumb stigma re: our equipment isn't Y2k compliant - I'm only interested in making sure that it works as soon as possible.
You cannot forsee the unforseen, it's that simple. Be prepared, do backups, and stay alert.
And smack the stupid executives around when they need it. I find yelling at the top of my lungs in meetings is a good way to make a point.;)
-- blue, who is no longer invited to meetings, but who also didn't have any of the machines he runs turned off for the date-over.
also think most other Unix operating systems will dissappear, with the probable exception of Solaris and AIX... all the rest will fade away into obscurity...
DYNIX, which is most of what will become Monterey, will rule all over everything in the next 5-6 years.. and then go completely away, once everyone realizes how much IA-64 are a waste of time and money.:)
Enough money to be comfy and save/invest + Close to the mountains + Close to the ocean + Cool mix of people + Plenty of trees + Low crime + Gorgeous weather 10 months of the year + Easy access to lots of bookstores/used CD shops + Coffee = Raleigh, NC!:)
It's an awesome place to live and work. To hell with Pittsbrugh, it's too damned cold and everyone's all pissy. Raleigh's cheap to live in, I make good money, and there's lots of cool stuff to do.
Didn't get to be judges because they're stupid, I think.. Who knows, maybe one will come along soon to prove me wrong..
On the other topic, how's this for history in the making - has there ever been an effort like this? Thousands of people, around the world, called to action within hours to show up in court and fight a stupid attempt at a legal stifling?
If this sort of behavior can be maintained.. who knows..
No one complains when bacteria are used to produce antibiotics. No one complains when bacteria is used to produce food. Why not get all fired up over that?
Heh, actually, a lot of people have been complaining about that - as antibiotic resistant bacteria have arisen to make life more difficult for those trying to kill them.
We're going about it all wrong, from an evolutionary standpoint. It's much, much better for us in the long run to keep the bacteria weak and the weak humans dead. Of course, this won't happen, and because it hasn't happened, we will pay the consequences - we are breeding organisms that are more fit to exist in our biological niche than we are. Whee!
Personally I find this fair. Linking to music should be considered equal to broadcasting it.
Wow.. interesting point, indeed. Being a musician myself,.. I still dunno how to feel about it.:)
I would say, however, that a link is not a broadcast - the 'music' is still originating from the host. If the host doesn't want people linking to stuff, it should be easy enough to make all links dynamic, and change em every couple of hours, or to use a simple authentication system, to at least make it annoying to link to things.
I firmly want to believe that the Alpha is a better processor, but thinking so because of the contents of a marketing release from a manufacturer is prolly not the greatest of ideas.
Sure, the Alpha has cool technology, and it always has, but "better" also include price-performance, something which Intel has historically been better-than-average at (until the advent of AMD, and in comparison to Motorolla/Sun/HP). There are signs that the Alpha may actually become affordable in the near future, and no one knows what Intel will do with pricing.
On a side note, there is a pretty interesting article on news.com about the past year's troubles for Compaq.. It blames most of the issues on executive malfeasanace.
did you try running it under dosemu/vmware? you could at least hack something together for it.. or, hell, nab that data (unless it's well encrypted) and pop it into an sql database..
I'm a little tired of the 'we'll start it out sounding neutral and informative and then switch to some unsubstantiated claims about BSD's superiority' articles posted here. This person claims that BSD's kernel is much more 'sophisticated' than linux's, in ways preferred by grad students and professors.. Sigh, and yerg.
So, responders, do us all a favor, if you wanna prove how, why, and where BSD is better than linux, post code and illustrate the difference - then explain why each OS does it a certain way.
My opinion: shut up and use whatever you feel like using. If popularity is important, go use windows.
At least, when I worked for the IBM e-business division, all of the major sites the used a unix web server pretty much used either Netscape or Domino. Very few used apache. Netscape is threaded, ie designed to work well on large, multi-processor boxes.
I would say only about 15% of the major IBM customers used NT on the front end, and MAN, what a mistake it was for them, across the board.;)
This is not, btw, an endorsement of any particular server - just the facts as I remember em.
The web server in an e-commerce site, for those of you who haven't implemented one, is almost an afterthought. Much more important are things like the database, switching/routing, load balancing, and the boxes on which the w/s runs.
Most of the really large sites have 3 or 4 web servers with either a cisco local director or IBM's e-net dispatcher in front of em.
is continuing - see quake.sourceforge.net - Also, quakeforge is working closely with the quakeworld people, as well as some people from Loki games, to bring Q1 up to speed.
They have a development roadmap, and the cheating issue is addressed. They have already managed to merge QW/Q1 into a single client, port it to SDL, etc, etc, etc.. It's rocking along, and quickly.
To those of you saying "THIS is the problem with OSS.." - shut up and code. It isn't a problem, just a little bump in the road till things settle out. There are several solutions to it, including ones not mentioned by Carmack.
I am fairly certain that this does not spell Doom (hehe) for OSS id software. Get lives, and get over it, in the face of what's already been accomplished, it's really not that big of a deal.
On the other hand, Linux, and all Unices, have "security through a single valuable secret." Once a single key secret (the root password) is known to someone penetrating the system, the entire resources of the system is at that individual's disposal. On a Unix system once a hacker has the command prompt, there isn't a thing s/he can't do. There isn't a single additional layer of security. There's no granularity at all. This isn't necessarily a good thing.
Jeeze, settle down a little bit. Did you forget already that the person running the Linux hack-this-box-and-keep-it contest gave out the root password? Also, ever heard of ACL's? And, as someone else pointed out, it's not like NT is any better.
And, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, you could also make a big-ass 'sudo' file, give all root commands out to certain users, and recompile login to not allow root - so the only way anyone could get root access would be by booting into single-user mode.
Shrug, there's a great deal of granularity there - as much as you want, _if you have the source code_.
I support RMS in this. I wish people would understand that security isn't always important.
Especially in the face of the fact that standard unix security really IS just a way to keep honest people honest - very few systems are truly secure, and, even if you don't have to worry about other users, what happens if you can't trust root?
I supposed you could think/write volumes about how a unix security model reflects societal insecurites.. if you were that bored, and didn't have an apartment in need of cleaning.;)
For the love of *od, will you PLEASE stop posting crap like that? If you can't post an article without addind some half-baked 'me-too'ism to it, then don't post! There are a ton of GPL-equivalent licenses, and some that are far more free, including my favorite, and the one that I personally use, from some OpenBSD code:
Free Software! No Warranty!
OB-E-Speak:
The guy above me beat me to the Sourcexchange link, they have all sorts of info on it. Basically, it's a set of frameworks for exchanging all sorts of data, authentication info, and even a desktop over port 80.
HP also sponsored the development of an Apache test suite. All of this goes back to their new CEO, who is completely insane, and believes that HP is going to define the next big protocol for internet commerce development. Check C-Net for more info on her.
I've read those.pdf's. It's.. uhm.. there are some interesting ideas there. Somewhere. Buried deeply.
everyone is implying that life started on earth and got ejected onto mars/europa - clearly, it is the other way around. life started on europa, and got spewed all over the solar system.
I urge slashdot to STOP posting self-promotioning articles, and start doing their own comments on things.
I totally, completely, 100% agree with this - except.. There are all of two people who post articles on/. with any sort of objectivity or even cohesion. They are Michael and Justin, and they rarely post. The most likely scenario is that you'd get Roblimo tacking on some really, really poorly thought-out comment, or a 'hear hear!' from Taco or Hemos.
These guys have proven that they can write well, and are generally much more interesting than the average posting. I would suggest perhaps making them all posted as 'features,' or some other mechanism by which those of us uninterested in long opinion peices can just whack em at the perl level.
Thanks!
BTW, last time I posted this exact same sentiment, I ended up moderated at "0 - Troll." Do these people even know what a troll IS? READ YOUR DAMNED MODERATOR GUIDELINES OR CHOOSE 'I don't want to moderate' IN YOUR PREFERENCES. Danke.
Is it just me, or has linux started absorbing (at an absolutely incredible rate) all the qualities it's supporters initially dismissed as both irrelevant and/or evil?
It's not just you, there are lots of other reactionary, negative people out there, and I bet at least 20 or 30 more will post in support of your opinion.
Linux is not absorbing anything but code, and buttloads of it. Those of you who bitch and whine about all the 'evil' things corporatization is doing to linux need to step back even 2 years ago, when all of the cool things we have now were pie-in-the-sky "Real Soon Now" fantasies: a journalling file system (reiserfs, paid for by mp3,.com and suse), support for buttloads of new devices, several choices of office suites (including star office, sun's attempt at further annoying M$), IDEs (free or otherwise - and vi still rules), JDKs (thanks, IBM), Voodoo 3's (my XF86 glide server sucks balls, btw), and on and on. Those things didn't just happen because people are nice - money makes the monkey dance. For once, the monkey dances in our favor - keep your eyes open, but relax and enjoy the ride.
We've been fighting all these spectres of Big Business Squashing the Little Guy, actively refuting the FUD companies throw against our cherished OS' (while replacing it with some of our own, admittedly), and essentially emulating all the behavior of the big businesses we're fighting against!
I dunno to which 'we' you refer, but I haven't been doing anything but coding, installing linux on anything that can't run away, and helping everyone I know get and use linux. I'm not sure there are a lot of 'big' 'evil' corporations out there that were doing that.
In short, shut up and code, or at least spend the rest of the weekend manufacturing a fresh new approach to being a whiny little sot.
"You call it sour grapes, I call it wine!" - Smart Went Crazy
Some people need graphics, animations and sounds to keep them interested.
Then those people should go watch tele-vision.;)
I defy any assertion that jiggly-fied web pages get more traffic than content-at-all-costs ones do. I believe the numbers speak in favor of those who provide services or information, not eye-candy.
Qualifier: I don't have a tv, and I spent about three hours tonight reading www.webelements.com. That's right, it's the periodic table. Some neat stuff in there. No flash.
I can't see the fox site at all. There are no links. Pretty cool. Sorta artsy, all black and imposing.. Hmmm.. maybe it's a metaphor for some new dirge-comedy they have brewing. Damn, those kids are smart.
Slashdot Mirror
We can stop this entire thread right now. By saying that JC wants to rewrite the Linux "IP Stack" they're implying that someone as network knowledgable as he is would infer that latency is an artifact of it.
Bzzzzzzt.
Latency is caused by a ton of factors - and the IP stack, unless you're talking about running thousands of clients on a single, multi-processor machine, aint really one of them.
Chalk it up to the rumor mill.
--
Blue
As in, the network guys where I work took all of the NT servers offline for fear of as-of-yet undiscovered virii.
;)
People just don't seem to be able to THINK about things. For instance, if the box has a virus that goes into effect when the clock rolls over, isn't it pretty damned likely to activate as soon as you turn the box back on?
In what way is taking the machines offline staving off the date rollover? It aint - all you're doing is postponing FINDING and having a chance to FIX all the problems.
Might as well let it happen on the night when no one expects things to work right anyways.. Who cares about some dumb stigma re: our equipment isn't Y2k compliant - I'm only interested in making sure that it works as soon as possible.
You cannot forsee the unforseen, it's that simple. Be prepared, do backups, and stay alert.
And smack the stupid executives around when they need it. I find yelling at the top of my lungs in meetings is a good way to make a point.
--
blue, who is no longer invited to meetings, but who also didn't have any of the machines he runs turned off for the date-over.
also think most other Unix operating systems will
:)
dissappear, with the probable exception of Solaris and AIX... all the rest will
fade away into obscurity...
DYNIX, which is most of what will become Monterey, will rule all over everything in the next 5-6 years.. and then go completely away, once everyone realizes how much IA-64 are a waste of time and money.
--
blue
Enough money to be comfy and save/invest :)
+ Close to the mountains
+ Close to the ocean
+ Cool mix of people
+ Plenty of trees
+ Low crime
+ Gorgeous weather 10 months of the year
+ Easy access to lots of bookstores/used CD shops
+ Coffee
= Raleigh, NC!
It's an awesome place to live and work. To hell with Pittsbrugh, it's too damned cold and everyone's all pissy. Raleigh's cheap to live in, I make good money, and there's lots of cool stuff to do.
But I'm hoping for armageddon.. I'm gonna go hang out at the dam and see if the sky turns red with the blood of two thousand years of sin..
:)
Failing that, I'll go home and go back to coding.
--
blue
Didn't get to be judges because they're stupid, I think.. Who knows, maybe one will come along soon to prove me wrong..
On the other topic, how's this for history in the making - has there ever been an effort like this? Thousands of people, around the world, called to action within hours to show up in court and fight a stupid attempt at a legal stifling?
If this sort of behavior can be maintained.. who knows..
Wishing something fun would happen in Raleigh..
--
blue
No one complains when bacteria are used to produce antibiotics. No one
complains when bacteria is used to produce food. Why not get all fired up
over that?
Heh, actually, a lot of people have been complaining about that - as antibiotic resistant bacteria have arisen to make life more difficult for those trying to kill them.
We're going about it all wrong, from an evolutionary standpoint. It's much, much better for us in the long run to keep the bacteria weak and the weak humans dead. Of course, this won't happen, and because it hasn't happened, we will pay the consequences - we are breeding organisms that are more fit to exist in our biological niche than we are. Whee!
--
blue, host.
Personally I find this fair. Linking to music should be considered equal to broadcasting it.
.. I still dunno how to feel about it. :)
Wow.. interesting point, indeed. Being a musician myself,
I would say, however, that a link is not a broadcast - the 'music' is still originating from the host. If the host doesn't want people linking to stuff, it should be easy enough to make all links dynamic, and change em every couple of hours, or to use a simple authentication system, to at least make it annoying to link to things.
--
Blue
I firmly want to believe that the Alpha is a better processor, but thinking so because of the contents of a marketing release from a manufacturer is prolly not the greatest of ideas.
:)
Sure, the Alpha has cool technology, and it always has, but "better" also include price-performance, something which Intel has historically been better-than-average at (until the advent of AMD, and in comparison to Motorolla/Sun/HP). There are signs that the Alpha may actually become affordable in the near future, and no one knows what Intel will do with pricing.
On a side note, there is a pretty interesting article on news.com about the past year's troubles for Compaq.. It blames most of the issues on executive malfeasanace.
Go Alpha!
--
blue
did you try running it under dosemu/vmware? you could at least hack something together for it.. or, hell, nab that data (unless it's well encrypted) and pop it into an sql database..
:)
blue (it's a lot like mewtwo)
overseas mirrors.
:)
Make the code ubiquitous, and it simply won't matter any more.
--
blue
I'm a little tired of the 'we'll start it out sounding neutral and informative and then switch to some unsubstantiated claims about BSD's superiority' articles posted here. This person claims that BSD's kernel is much more 'sophisticated' than linux's, in ways preferred by grad students and professors.. Sigh, and yerg.
So, responders, do us all a favor, if you wanna prove how, why, and where BSD is better than linux, post code and illustrate the difference - then explain why each OS does it a certain way.
My opinion: shut up and use whatever you feel like using. If popularity is important, go use windows.
--
Blue
Name specific sites or cease and desist.
sears.com, victoriassectret.com - right off the top of my head.. lessee.. metlife.com, uhmb..
i worked mostly for vickie's.. anyways, there's three quick ones.. email me and i'll try and find a better list, if you REALLY don't believe me.
--
blue
Netscape!
;)
:)
At least, when I worked for the IBM e-business division, all of the major sites the used a unix web server pretty much used either Netscape or Domino. Very few used apache. Netscape is threaded, ie designed to work well on large, multi-processor boxes.
I would say only about 15% of the major IBM customers used NT on the front end, and MAN, what a mistake it was for them, across the board.
This is not, btw, an endorsement of any particular server - just the facts as I remember em.
The web server in an e-commerce site, for those of you who haven't implemented one, is almost an afterthought. Much more important are things like the database, switching/routing, load balancing, and the boxes on which the w/s runs.
Most of the really large sites have 3 or 4 web servers with either a cisco local director or IBM's e-net dispatcher in front of em.
--
Blue, formerly root@justabouteverybigecommercesiteinamerica.com
is continuing - see quake.sourceforge.net - Also, quakeforge is working closely with the quakeworld people, as well as some people from Loki games, to bring Q1 up to speed.
They have a development roadmap, and the cheating issue is addressed. They have already managed to merge QW/Q1 into a single client, port it to SDL, etc, etc, etc.. It's rocking along, and quickly.
To those of you saying "THIS is the problem with OSS.." - shut up and code. It isn't a problem, just a little bump in the road till things settle out. There are several solutions to it, including ones not mentioned by Carmack.
I am fairly certain that this does not spell Doom (hehe) for OSS id software. Get lives, and get over it, in the face of what's already been accomplished, it's really not that big of a deal.
--
Blue
My first opera session:
./runnow ~/opera-19991224 ./runnow ~/opera-19991224 ./opera ~/opera-19991224 ../ ~/opera-19991224
:)
one% cd opera-19991224/ ~
one% ls ~/opera-19991224
gif opera runnow
one%
one%
Sorry, not implemented: ProxyServerConfigurationDialogx::slotHelp()
UNDEFINED STRING -- SEE PrefsManager::GetLanguageString()UNDEFINED STRING -- SEEone%
one% cd
one% rm -rf opera-19991224 ~
opera-19991224 opera-19991224.tar.gz
one% rm -rf opera-19991224* ~
one%
Yes, it is beta. I think I'll wait another 2 or 3 months.
--
blue
On the other hand, Linux, and all Unices, have "security through a single valuable secret." Once a
single key secret (the root password) is known to someone penetrating the system, the entire
resources of the system is at that individual's disposal. On a Unix system once a hacker has the
command prompt, there isn't a thing s/he can't do. There isn't a single additional layer of security.
There's no granularity at all. This isn't necessarily a good thing.
Jeeze, settle down a little bit. Did you forget already that the person running the Linux hack-this-box-and-keep-it contest gave out the root password? Also, ever heard of ACL's? And, as someone else pointed out, it's not like NT is any better.
And, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, you could also make a big-ass 'sudo' file, give all root commands out to certain users, and recompile login to not allow root - so the only way anyone could get root access would be by booting into single-user mode.
Shrug, there's a great deal of granularity there - as much as you want, _if you have the source code_.
--
Blue
did you run ldconfig as root after installing the lib?
I support RMS in this. I wish people would understand that security isn't always important.
;)
Especially in the face of the fact that standard unix security really IS just a way to keep honest people honest - very few systems are truly secure, and, even if you don't have to worry about other users, what happens if you can't trust root?
I supposed you could think/write volumes about how a unix security model reflects societal insecurites.. if you were that bored, and didn't have an apartment in need of cleaning.
--
blue
For the love of *od, will you PLEASE stop posting crap like that? If you can't post an article without addind some half-baked 'me-too'ism to it, then don't post! There are a ton of GPL-equivalent licenses, and some that are far more free, including my favorite, and the one that I personally use, from some OpenBSD code:
.pdf's. It's.. uhm.. there are some interesting ideas there. Somewhere. Buried deeply.
Free Software! No Warranty!
OB-E-Speak:
The guy above me beat me to the Sourcexchange link, they have all sorts of info on it. Basically, it's a set of frameworks for exchanging all sorts of data, authentication info, and even a desktop over port 80.
HP also sponsored the development of an Apache test suite. All of this goes back to their new CEO, who is completely insane, and believes that HP is going to define the next big protocol for internet commerce development. Check C-Net for more info on her.
I've read those
--
blue
everyone is implying that life started on earth and got ejected onto mars/europa - clearly, it is the other way around. life started on europa, and got spewed all over the solar system.
--
;)
I urge slashdot to STOP posting self-promotioning articles, and start doing
/. with any sort of objectivity or even cohesion. They are Michael and Justin, and they rarely post. The most likely scenario is that you'd get Roblimo tacking on some really, really poorly thought-out comment, or a 'hear hear!' from Taco or Hemos.
their own comments on things.
I totally, completely, 100% agree with this - except.. There are all of two people who post articles on
These guys have proven that they can write well, and are generally much more interesting than the average posting. I would suggest perhaps making them all posted as 'features,' or some other mechanism by which those of us uninterested in long opinion peices can just whack em at the perl level.
Thanks!
BTW, last time I posted this exact same sentiment, I ended up moderated at "0 - Troll." Do these people even know what a troll IS? READ YOUR DAMNED MODERATOR GUIDELINES OR CHOOSE 'I don't want to moderate' IN YOUR PREFERENCES. Danke.
--
blue
Is it just me, or has linux started absorbing (at an absolutely incredible rate)
all the qualities it's supporters initially dismissed as both irrelevant and/or
evil?
It's not just you, there are lots of other reactionary, negative people out there, and I bet at least 20 or 30 more will post in support of your opinion.
Linux is not absorbing anything but code, and buttloads of it. Those of you who bitch and whine about all the 'evil' things corporatization is doing to linux need to step back even 2 years ago, when all of the cool things we have now were pie-in-the-sky "Real Soon Now" fantasies: a journalling file system (reiserfs, paid for by mp3,.com and suse), support for buttloads of new devices, several choices of office suites (including star office, sun's attempt at further annoying M$), IDEs (free or otherwise - and vi still rules), JDKs (thanks, IBM), Voodoo 3's (my XF86 glide server sucks balls, btw), and on and on. Those things didn't just happen because people are nice - money makes the monkey dance. For once, the monkey dances in our favor - keep your eyes open, but relax and enjoy the ride.
We've been fighting all these spectres of Big Business Squashing the Little Guy, actively refuting the FUD companies throw against our cherished OS' (while replacing it with some of our own, admittedly), and essentially emulating all the behavior of the big businesses we're fighting against!
I dunno to which 'we' you refer, but I haven't been doing anything but coding, installing linux on anything that can't run away, and helping everyone I know get and use linux. I'm not sure there are a lot of 'big' 'evil' corporations out there that were doing that.
In short, shut up and code, or at least spend the rest of the weekend manufacturing a fresh new approach to being a whiny little sot.
"You call it sour grapes, I call it wine!" - Smart Went Crazy
--
blue
Some people need graphics, animations and sounds to keep them interested.
;)
Then those people should go watch tele-vision.
I defy any assertion that jiggly-fied web pages get more traffic than content-at-all-costs ones do. I believe the numbers speak in favor of those who provide services or information, not eye-candy.
Qualifier: I don't have a tv, and I spent about three hours tonight reading www.webelements.com. That's right, it's the periodic table. Some neat stuff in there. No flash.
I can't see the fox site at all. There are no links. Pretty cool. Sorta artsy, all black and imposing.. Hmmm.. maybe it's a metaphor for some new dirge-comedy they have brewing. Damn, those kids are smart.
--
blue
They have had similar openings in the past. And there have been recent announcements about them releasing drivers for all of their products to linux.
;)
With modular device drivers, generally speaking, who cares if it's open-source.
--
blue