For the most part that's what happened, there were about 700 arrest do you really think there were only 700 protesters? there were thousands upon thousands of protesters (probably upwards of 10K).
Several people were arrested for an 'illegal march' meaning they were blocking traffic because they decided to march in a place for which no permit was issued and they would not disburse.
I third this (Eagan) and I completely avoided St. Paul when they started throwing crap onto buses and cars from overpasses. My Cousin went in on the last day and peacefully protested there was no trouble for people who were organized in peaceful exercise of their first amendment rights, it was the morons attacking cops and delegates that got arrested.
Some group need to write a half dozen or so policies covering a range of options and publish them under a license which *does not* allow them to be used under the same name if any changes are made.
Who really reads the GPL anymore after you have went through it a few time? the MPL? BSD? If you get somewhere under a dozen options out there you can save *everybody* time..
"This, of course, assumes that the government can do a better job with its limited knowledge, expertise, and equipment."
Its not hard today to throw a rock and hit an able network/systems admin or three and many good ones who live locally might be willing to take a slight pay cut to avoid the commute into MSP or just for the fact a govt job is a much less stressful place than private industry.
"I find it hard to imagine that running fiber around is cheaper, but it must mean that their city buildings are right next door to each other or on the same block."
Cheaper than what? its probably slightly cheaper for them than the teleco's (after all they can way speed up their own permit process). And they seem to be reasonably densely populated (and small) for such a move
Area
- Total 6.2 sq mi (16.1 km)
Population (2000)
- Total 11,414
- Density 1,264.6/sq mi (488.3/km)
Actually its pretty densely populated (and small)
--
"There are few things that I have experienced the government doing better than a competitive private sector."
I generally agree with this but when a government *wants* to do something like this I prefer its a local government and not the state or federal.
And why should the UN be trusted with this? As another poster pointed out they are comprised of many nations that censor speech, expression, assembly and thought. On top of that they have been shown to be as (if not more) corrupt (Oil for Food in Iraq), Inept (Sierra Leone), and Impotent (Rwanda)...
The problem is this, look at Korea... How far do you have to route *between* high density areas? (Answer) None..
Even if you ignore every city with a population of less than 100,000 in the united states you still have to support an infrastructure which has hook on three coasts (east, west, and gulf), inland cities like Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh Denver,...,...,....
Very, very few nations have to deal with *that* kind of distribution, Geographically the US is very, very big (3rd or fourth in the world depending on who you talk to) of the nations that are ahead of the US in terms of average performance only Canada and Australia are in the top ten in terms of land area and neither of those is nearly as distributed as the US (seventy-five percent of Canadians live within 160 kilometers) and most of Australia is empty(ish) outside the south and east coast.
No nation with the challenges the US has does any better than we do..
Apple has done a good job evolving the iPod it went from a trendy music player to the most useful PDA I have ever had. The Touch generation of iPods has little similarity to the other line and that will probably be the way they go. The strength of the iPod is no longer its trendiness and while it has nowhere to go but down (in terms of market share) Its not going to 'die' anytime soon.
Option 1 (Airlines are Liars): So the current attitude of fear can be used in such a manner than any defect in design or operation of an airplane can be blamed on something that happens on *every flight* (people using electronics) thus freeing the Airline of responsibility. I just flew this past weekend and in addition to using my laptop to let my toddlers watch a movie (thus not drive me and the other passengers insane), We have all seen dozens on laptops on a two hour domestic flight, I don't fly internationally all that much but I'm guessing there is more of a need on a 6-10 hour flight.
Option 2 (Aircraft makers are Fools): Did you really design a system that a blue tooth mouse can take off course! you do realize people fly in these things right? If this is the case I will avoide Airbus like the plague!
Not really Manhattan *maybe* but the point is in Singapore, HK, Japan, and South Korea they don't have to connect these urban areas which are separated by great distances (NY to LA)... The US can also not ignore the 40=% of its population that lives in areas with a population of less than 200,000
I have lived in Big Metro's, Small Metro's and rural areas and you can add to your list (for the vast majority of places satellite service and PCS service...
Besides, the OP said there was *not* choice, not little choice..
20% of Finland's population lives in the Helsinki Metro area, another 10% live in just three cities..
40% of the population in 4 metropolitan areas..
IN the US the top 4 metros NY (18 Million), LA (12 Million), Chicago (8 Million), and Dallas (5 Million) together contain just 15% in those ares who's mean distance apart is far greater than Finland..
In Korea 50% of the population lives in *1* metro area, in Japan 14% live in and around Tokyo, and 25% of the population live in just three metro areas! with the average distance between metro areas being next to nothing.
"So, is your argument intended to suggest that the USA cannot improve its internet access?"
Nope, just pointing out the reality of the task. May here (some Americans and some not) believe laying fiber to improve service in the US is a simple matter when they don't get just how big and spread out this nation is (most Europeans cant wrap their mind around it either).
"You might not be able to reproduce internet access to the levels enjoyed by many other countries at the same cost, but you can improve it so that people are not tied to a a single provider"
People *are not* tied to a single provider. I can go with Comcast, Verizon, Road Runner, SprintPCS, and others. When people say 'you only have one option' they generally mean for a cable modem and ignore other methods of access.
"Tell me that again in a few years time when your businesses cannot compete because they cannot communicate"
Businesses generally don't use the kind of access that were discussing here, the bring in a T1 or use a co-location for hosting. You're confusing residential options with commercial options.
"when a large proportion of your population cannot get adequate TV coverage because the digital revolution has left them unable to get analogue signals"
Ummm, what? the US is *giving out converter boxes* for the digital signal conversion and TV access in the US will be as far wide and deep in march 2009 as it is today.
"i live in the suburbs of L.A. but my broadband bills are still several times those of similarly dense population centers in other countries."
The cost a provider puts out there is distributed among all its customers so while comcast has high density areas it also has low density areas.
"but most Americans live in metropolitan areas or their surrounding suburbs."
But more than a fifth live in rural areas and of the 80ish percent that live in 'metro areas' 20% live in area with a population of less than 200,000! Much of America does *not* look like the suburbs of LA..
"check out this chart of average broadband speeds to see how far ahead Japan and Korea are. if we want to catch up to those countries"
more than 25% of Korea's population lives in *1* city (and well over half live in that cities metro area), and Japan fits half the population of the United States into a nation smaller than California I really don't think you're wrapping your head around the Geography of this whole thing..
"Were we in a backward place like Korea, Japan, or Singapore we would enjoy HUGE bandwidth and no limit for a reasonable monthly fee."
You mean geographically small and dense areas with less infrastructure needs to get glass to the curb than the US who have all built the majority of their physical infrastructure (roads, electricity, telephone,...) in the past 30 years... oh yea that's apples for apples/sarc
"Am I the only one who cringes when hearing the phrase "multiple layers of security". It is like a process where you have five people proof read something to check for mistakes, but none of the five bears any responsibility if a typo goes through."
Never, in the history of man has the true process of government been summed up so well!
D students would still be getting 60% at the very least with this scheme, which would still be a semi-passing grade compared to a 50% failing grade.
A D student would be getting their own 60 but an F student who, for example, copies home work could parlay that given 50 on exams into the same grade as the kid who is working.
Most Classes I took in HS had distributions like this:
Homework 10% Project 10% Quizzes 10% MidTerm 30% Final 40%
Assume Student A is a D student they will pull a 60% avg in these areas..
Now Assume Student B is a kid who copies HW and Projects and sleeps during test of all sorts:
Like I said this is not hurting the kids getting A's this is hurting kids who work really hard but may not be there greatest student..
I had one such class my freshman year of HS, For some reason (Maybe ADD, maybe a bad teacher, maybe the fact going from a Montessori system to a standard system was a big adjustment, maybe the planets lined up just right) but for the first and only time in my life I was struggling with math! I would go home do my HW, stay after for help from the teacher but I could barely crack a C I would have been pissed if some kid who did no work at all (other than copy hw before class) pulled the same grade..
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For the most part that's what happened, there were about 700 arrest do you really think there were only 700 protesters? there were thousands upon thousands of protesters (probably upwards of 10K).
Several people were arrested for an 'illegal march' meaning they were blocking traffic because they decided to march in a place for which no permit was issued and they would not disburse.
I third this (Eagan) and I completely avoided St. Paul when they started throwing crap onto buses and cars from overpasses. My Cousin went in on the last day and peacefully protested there was no trouble for people who were organized in peaceful exercise of their first amendment rights, it was the morons attacking cops and delegates that got arrested.
Some group need to write a half dozen or so policies covering a range of options and publish them under a license which *does not* allow them to be used under the same name if any changes are made.
Who really reads the GPL anymore after you have went through it a few time? the MPL? BSD? If you get somewhere under a dozen options out there you can save *everybody* time..
"This, of course, assumes that the government can do a better job with its limited knowledge, expertise, and equipment."
Its not hard today to throw a rock and hit an able network/systems admin or three and many good ones who live locally might be willing to take a slight pay cut to avoid the commute into MSP or just for the fact a govt job is a much less stressful place than private industry.
"I find it hard to imagine that running fiber around is cheaper, but it must mean that their city buildings are right next door to each other or on the same block."
Cheaper than what? its probably slightly cheaper for them than the teleco's (after all they can way speed up their own permit process). And they seem to be reasonably densely populated (and small) for such a move
Area
- Total 6.2 sq mi (16.1 km)
Population (2000)
- Total 11,414
- Density 1,264.6/sq mi (488.3/km)
Actually its pretty densely populated (and small)
--
"There are few things that I have experienced the government doing better than a competitive private sector."
I generally agree with this but when a government *wants* to do something like this I prefer its a local government and not the state or federal.
And why should the UN be trusted with this? As another poster pointed out they are comprised of many nations that censor speech, expression, assembly and thought. On top of that they have been shown to be as (if not more) corrupt (Oil for Food in Iraq), Inept (Sierra Leone), and Impotent (Rwanda)...
..
The problem is this, look at Korea... How far do you have to route *between* high density areas? (Answer) None..
Even if you ignore every city with a population of less than 100,000 in the united states you still have to support an infrastructure which has hook on three coasts (east, west, and gulf), inland cities like Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh Denver, ..., ..., ....
Very, very few nations have to deal with *that* kind of distribution, Geographically the US is very, very big (3rd or fourth in the world depending on who you talk to) of the nations that are ahead of the US in terms of average performance only Canada and Australia are in the top ten in terms of land area and neither of those is nearly as distributed as the US (seventy-five percent of Canadians live within 160 kilometers) and most of Australia is empty(ish) outside the south and east coast.
No nation with the challenges the US has does any better than we do..
Use a clean install and email the photos to yourself while you are there... or put them on an encrypted thumb drive / cd and snail mail it..
Apple has done a good job evolving the iPod it went from a trendy music player to the most useful PDA I have ever had. The Touch generation of iPods has little similarity to the other line and that will probably be the way they go. The strength of the iPod is no longer its trendiness and while it has nowhere to go but down (in terms of market share) Its not going to 'die' anytime soon.
Option 1 (Airlines are Liars): So the current attitude of fear can be used in such a manner than any defect in design or operation of an airplane can be blamed on something that happens on *every flight* (people using electronics) thus freeing the Airline of responsibility. I just flew this past weekend and in addition to using my laptop to let my toddlers watch a movie (thus not drive me and the other passengers insane), We have all seen dozens on laptops on a two hour domestic flight, I don't fly internationally all that much but I'm guessing there is more of a need on a 6-10 hour flight.
Option 2 (Aircraft makers are Fools): Did you really design a system that a blue tooth mouse can take off course! you do realize people fly in these things right? If this is the case I will avoide Airbus like the plague!
Not really Manhattan *maybe* but the point is in Singapore, HK, Japan, and South Korea they don't have to connect these urban areas which are separated by great distances (NY to LA)... The US can also not ignore the 40=% of its population that lives in areas with a population of less than 200,000
I have lived in Big Metro's, Small Metro's and rural areas and you can add to your list (for the vast majority of places satellite service and PCS service...
Besides, the OP said there was *not* choice, not little choice..
Besides do you really think they read the majority of mail they get?
20% of Finland's population lives in the Helsinki Metro area, another 10% live in just three cities..
40% of the population in 4 metropolitan areas..
IN the US the top 4 metros NY (18 Million), LA (12 Million), Chicago (8 Million), and Dallas (5 Million) together contain just 15% in those ares who's mean distance apart is far greater than Finland..
And Albany, Syracuse, Utica.... Get out much?
In Korea 50% of the population lives in *1* metro area, in Japan 14% live in and around Tokyo, and 25% of the population live in just three metro areas! with the average distance between metro areas being next to nothing.
"So, is your argument intended to suggest that the USA cannot improve its internet access?"
Nope, just pointing out the reality of the task. May here (some Americans and some not) believe laying fiber to improve service in the US is a simple matter when they don't get just how big and spread out this nation is (most Europeans cant wrap their mind around it either).
"You might not be able to reproduce internet access to the levels enjoyed by many other countries at the same cost, but you can improve it so that people are not tied to a a single provider"
People *are not* tied to a single provider. I can go with Comcast, Verizon, Road Runner, SprintPCS, and others. When people say 'you only have one option' they generally mean for a cable modem and ignore other methods of access.
"Tell me that again in a few years time when your businesses cannot compete because they cannot communicate"
Businesses generally don't use the kind of access that were discussing here, the bring in a T1 or use a co-location for hosting. You're confusing residential options with commercial options.
"when a large proportion of your population cannot get adequate TV coverage because the digital revolution has left them unable to get analogue signals"
Ummm, what? the US is *giving out converter boxes* for the digital signal conversion and TV access in the US will be as far wide and deep in march 2009 as it is today.
"i live in the suburbs of L.A. but my broadband bills are still several times those of similarly dense population centers in other countries."
The cost a provider puts out there is distributed among all its customers so while comcast has high density areas it also has low density areas.
"but most Americans live in metropolitan areas or their surrounding suburbs."
But more than a fifth live in rural areas and of the 80ish percent that live in 'metro areas' 20% live in area with a population of less than 200,000! Much of America does *not* look like the suburbs of LA..
"check out this chart of average broadband speeds to see how far ahead Japan and Korea are. if we want to catch up to those countries"
more than 25% of Korea's population lives in *1* city (and well over half live in that cities metro area), and Japan fits half the population of the United States into a nation smaller than California I really don't think you're wrapping your head around the Geography of this whole thing..
Well oligopoly comes to mind, cartel in another appropriate word.
"Were we in a backward place like Korea, Japan, or Singapore we would enjoy HUGE bandwidth and no limit for a reasonable monthly fee."
You mean geographically small and dense areas with less infrastructure needs to get glass to the curb than the US who have all built the majority of their physical infrastructure (roads, electricity, telephone, ...) in the past 30 years... oh yea that's apples for apples /sarc
Well, like anything else in American politics is 90% of one party moving with 40-50% of the other..
Many democrats voted against this but the reason its being pushed by its leadership is because of things like this:
http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/09/19/congressional-black-caucus-and-its-cozy-relationship-with-fannie-mae.php
And this:
http://nwrepublican.blogspot.com/2008/09/democrats-caught-on-tape-fanie-mae-not.html
--
Many republicans are voting for it because they also know where their bread is buttered..
The two parties really are remarkably similar..
Well we reserve that kind of money for folks who fail upwards..
After all the Hubble is less responsible for its state than Wall street is for where it ended up!
"You think thats unique to government?"
Its not unique to government but it is ubiquitous within government!
"Have you never worked in a private company?"
Yup some are like this and some are not.. More often than not the companies which are like this die or, at the very least, change leadership.
"A massive slice of incompentence and stupidity is the one thing ALL human endeavour together."
Aye' but the instituted practice of making people not *responsible* for their stupidity is a pillar of government bodies..
"Am I the only one who cringes when hearing the phrase "multiple layers of security". It is like a process where you have five people proof read something to check for mistakes, but none of the five bears any responsibility if a typo goes through."
Never, in the history of man has the true process of government been summed up so well!
D students would still be getting 60% at the very least with this scheme, which would still be a semi-passing grade compared to a 50% failing grade.
A D student would be getting their own 60 but an F student who, for example, copies home work could parlay that given 50 on exams into the same grade as the kid who is working.
Most Classes I took in HS had distributions like this:
Homework 10%
Project 10%
Quizzes 10%
MidTerm 30%
Final 40%
Assume Student A is a D student they will pull a 60% avg in these areas..
Now Assume Student B is a kid who copies HW and Projects and sleeps during test of all sorts:
10(HW) + 10(Project) + 5(Quiz) + 15(Midterm) + 20(Final) = 60!
--
Like I said this is not hurting the kids getting A's this is hurting kids who work really hard but may not be there greatest student..
I had one such class my freshman year of HS, For some reason (Maybe ADD, maybe a bad teacher, maybe the fact going from a Montessori system to a standard system was a big adjustment, maybe the planets lined up just right) but for the first and only time in my life I was struggling with math! I would go home do my HW, stay after for help from the teacher but I could barely crack a C I would have been pissed if some kid who did no work at all (other than copy hw before class) pulled the same grade..