Seriously their government is hell bent on controlling what goes into and out of that nation and what better way to do that than by forcing people to use a proxy..
"maybe my perspective is different because i used to tutor other students in high school, but not all poor students are "pisspots""
Never said all poor student were pisspots, just said student B was, but please commence with the genuine outrage and moral superiority..
"some lack studying skills, some simply need a little extra attention or different teaching methods. it's hard to say why students do poorly."
Personally Student A was doing poorly but as I said working hard and thus deserving of a better grade than student B. We all knew the guys in High School who copied homework before classes and for that Test and quizzes were the great equalizer now that will be gone..
"besides, what's a warranted grade is subjective. this simply changing the grading scale."
No, its not if you get 10% of the answers right that a 10% and not a 50%, assign it a D- if you like (smart curves have their place) but dont take a crap and tell me is a brownie.
"there's still the top percentile and bottom percentile. it's just more forgiving for struggling students.""
This does not hurt the kids at the top, it hurts the kids in the middle to low end who now get lumped in quite nicely with the kids in the bottom. And teaching kids life hands you a 50 for doing nothing is not forgiving struggling students.
"IMO school isn't there to punish those who are lazy or unmotivated"
Nor is it there to *enable* that behavior!
"if a more forgiving grading system does that then who cares whether lazy students go home with a 50% or 0%?"
Like I said a student who copies on home works can now pull the same grades as kids putting in effort, so I guess they might care.
You see implied violence in PG-13 movies all the time, you also see implied sex all the time, maybe the reason you don't see it is for the same reason that many don't see the violence, you're not sensitive to it. Hell on the 'House' season primer episode they had Cutty doing a pole dance in a dream sequence. Episodes of scrubs where JD and Elliott hook up show a good deal of flesh and that's just broadcast TV...
Never in either case in a PG-13 movies have they shown a woman's bare breast.
"how does it punish students for not gaming the system?"
Student A has trouble with math but they work their tail off in pre-calc to get through with a 65%. Student B copies their homework from someone else and does not study for the test (thus getting a 50)
Its possible for Student B to swing the same grade..
This is a crap system because it does not consider the disposition of the students and its insulting to teachers to make them give an unwarrented grade (even a 50%) to some pisspot who did not study...
Teacher pay varies from district to district but on the whole their pay is more than adequate.
Back in the day my teacher would have one day a week where you could come and do a retake on a quiz if you failed it for a max of 80%. .
But teachers in most districts have a study hall period given to them and given the school day is officially from about 8:30-3:30 staying a 45 minutes before or after once a week is not a huge burden.
Every time I hear someone barf up the old call for 'more education dollars' I have to ask how much is enough to do the job? It seems that 12.5K per kid per year is not enough in Minneapolis but a fraction of that is enough at a Catholic school..
The difference is parental involvement. You can double spending or you can cut it in half and you'll get the same results, parents are the key not federal dollars and if this is not enough evidence that many school districts don't know sh*t from shinola then there is never going to be enough.
"APPROACH ONE: The stats approach: The homocide rate per 100000 people is 5.7 in the US. That's compared to 2.03 in the UK, 1.64 in France, and 0.5 in Japan."
There is a huge false assumption here: correlation equals causation... Lets look at non violent crime rates what you will find there that Japan is more often than not among the lower rates, because of culture. There are underlying issues which pushed the US to high levels of crimes in multiple areas..
meh, we all have abrain fart from time to time... but you make a good point, all those flks in upstate NY might like to be able to go across the border a bit easier, still I would not consolidate my ID in this fasion on principle alone! I dont think states should be issueing ID to suit federal standards..
"Our government has made it clear, non citizens are not humans"
Come off of it! Saying that rights enumerated in the constitution are for all people automatically is a debateable point. The US constitution (and the Bill of rights within) are a social contract between the American people and their government *not* definitive work on what rights all people inheirently have.
If, for example, canada bans certain public religious teachings that are allowed in the US does that mean canada does not conisder its own people human? China does not allow freedom of assembly does that mean they dont consider their people human?
And what about nations that provide services like healthcare for their own people but would not do much more than stabalize a visiting American? do they think only their citiznes? If I discover while on vacation in england that I have cancer would their refusal to treat it mean they dont think I am human?
Stop with the pointless, not to mention thoughtless, self hating mod point seeking attacks..
BTW if you buy a car with defective brakes and hit a person with it is it your fault or the person who sold it? now lets say you sell the car to a friend before the breaks fail and he hits someone... are you, he, or the comapnie that made the car at fault?
"It's still a bad scenario, and once an employee is placed in that scenario there's really no telling what's going to happen either way."
I did not say it was a 'good' scenario but it was the *best* available and the only mature way to deal with the situation.
"All that would accomplish would be giving the passwords to the people who were never authorized to have them."
With him being fired his management had every right to say 'give us the passwords' he no onger had a right and they *define* who is authorised.
" If the employer had hired a competent admin to replace him, then yes, it would have been totally wrong of him to refuse to give those passwords to the new admin, but they didn't do that, and I'm not going to criticize the admin for not wanting to hand the passwords over to the boss who still wasn't authorized to have them."
Once he is fired its not his concern anymore, its folks like him who give IT workers a reputation for being unproessional.
"If and when the boss sticks his neck out that far, somebody's in for trouble, and it's a toss up whether he'll successfully pin it on you"
That is why you document it and immeaditly let the managers boss know what is going on. This is the *best* way out of such a senario.
"What's he supposed to do, cut out his brain and FedEx it to them?"
A simple post-it note with the passwords would do.
"Ok, well, like I said, even if it's possible there was absolutely no need to change the passwords"
we keep coming back to this, due dilligence! even if you have competant management (which he clearly did not) you need to make sure the beating of your heart is not the only thinkg keeping your employer from having to rebuild *everything*.
"We really can't assume anything because it didn't happen that way, but since he's innocent until proven guilty I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt."
Oh dont play that card you have already tried, convicted, and executed his management. You are insightful, thoughful, but nowhere near impartial..
"Be that as it may, I'd be surprised to see that it was consistently enforced in very many of them."
Im not one who thinks 'no call no foul'. If thereis a policy against it then it should not be done.
"hand over the passwords, watch his boss screw up the network, get blamed, and justify himself but be in the very bad graces of the boss, probably leading to him leaving the job."
you yourself pointed out the win, emial the guy saying 'look, you're not qualified to touch this network and you may damage it I will not give you the passrwords until you acknowledge this' and cc his boss..
"Amend (a) to someone competent. Before he was fired, he said "No I'm not giving you the passwords - you'll screw up the system." It doesn't much surprise me that after he was fired he still thought that."
except that after he was fired he had no right to own those passwords and no responsability if the network was destroyed.
"That may or may not have even been possible on that equipment, and in any event it certainly wasn't necessary"
It was cisco equipment, it is possible and if youre the only admin then it is absolutly necesary.
"True. However, passwords aren't "keys". I don't really want to get into the whole "I don't believe in imaginary property" debate here, though... IIRC, he eventually gave them the admin passwords (the relevant network passwords)."
I was, of course, using 'keys' as a metaphor but thats a debate better left for another thread. He only gave the passwords when criminal prosecution came up you get no points for that.
"He just didn't give them the password to the "Mystery Device", which isn't all that surprising since the login message claims it's his personal property (and it's not really surprising that a sysadmin would hook one of his own personal devices to the network if it served a useful purpose."
Actually most orgs over a given size have policies against such actions, unless approved my management. His 'personal property' ended up on a tax payer owned WAN without authorization, or even notification what it was doing. This to me begs the question 'what was it doing' and given its location (on the SF WAN) he can not claim privacy..
"Yes, but what's "right" often takes secondary position to what's "easy"."
And thats what makes him a bad admin..
"If the network was really as important as they apparently think it is, they should have found the money to hire redundant IT personnel. It's basically that simple."
I don't disagree, but two wrongs don't make a right, its *that* simple..
"If his employer hired another IT person, then yeah, he'd be ethically responsible to train the new guy well enough to administer the system without him. However, since his employer decided to screw him over it's not really HIS fault when they were left with no one to administer the network."
Depends on what were talking about? should he have to script everything he does to the point of being more busy maintaining scripts and docs than doing his job? no... But he should have made sure (a) someone, anyone had the passwd other than him or (b) the equipment was set up in such a way that the passwd could be reset via resetting registers, he did neither.
"Whatever. Your complaints don't change the fact that it's true."
Whats true is he was employeed, in the end, by the people of SF and due dillignce demand he had a DR doc (even if his pointy haired boss did not). Also when he was fired he should have been compelled by ethics to hand the keys back to the people who *own* the network. Being smart (and he might be brilliant) does not give you the right to take something that is not yours.
"that the PHBs were idiots and shouldn't have been trusted with admin-level passwords."
I dont doubt that management folk should not be trusted with passwrods with the rare exception of it you (a) dont have a backup or (b) have no documented proceedure for altering the passwords so that if you shed your mortal coil the network is not so ocked down it has to be rebuilt.
"Perhaps the correct response wasn't "absolutely not"... what this admin should have said was, "You're not authorized to have those passwords. If you wish to countermand protocol and you demand that I reveal them, I will have no choice but to comply, and I won't be held responsible if/when you screw everything up.""
I agree 100% The boss is not always right but he is always the bosss and if the PHB demands you do something you feel is dangerous best get him to acknowledge that. but this guy did not even turn over the passwords when fired! nor did he even have the network set up so that *anybody* could step in and take it over.
"It would be entirely in the hands of the same incompetent morons who refused to hire a second competent IT person... which, I might add, is extremely obvious common sense. "
Please dont think I am backing the morons who let this thing evolve in the first place nearly all failures in life are failures of management and good management realizes that! But even if you have a PHB you should still be an ethical employee, this guys was *clearly* not.
"Good policy dictates that you always, ALWAYS have at least TWO competent people for any mission-critical position that requires 24-hour on-call availability"
Depends on the budget, a good business continuity plan may include a contract for backup support. I have worked for companies who sent out who helpdesk at the same time for training and had a contract with a local it shop to fill in... the key for this is good documentation by the technical staff. But your point stands the management is also responable for the hit by a bus event.
"What you mean is, "He should have foreseen the possibility of being unexpectedly terminated and made things easy for his green successor to handle." Frankly, I disagree... he had no obligation whatsoever."
Unless its his organization yes, he does, have an ethical responsability. We will have to agree to disagree..
"Well, ok...but, do realize...today, more so than when I was a kid....they do like status things."
They like them just as much its just the things have changed. Back in the day the 100$ sneakers was the thing, or a gameboy,...,...
"And you have to remember, there are a LOT of people out there, that to them, $400 or so is pocket change and isn't very much money...hence, junior will get one of those as a cell phone."
The median American household income is 50K, or close to 1,000 a week before taxes and about 700 after taxes. Not too many people consider three days labor 'pocket change'. Especially people with kids! The problem is parents not amking their kids work for crap, back in teh day when I wanted the super nintendo in the 8th grade my Parets told me to get a job! So I did..
Now when I had the chance to visit China with my school and I could only earn 2K of the3K needed my parents stepped up and provided me with the extra money, its not that my parents could not afford to help with the SNES its that they sure as hell were not going to spend good money on a video game system but they would do it for a life changing experience.
"Some things are just too important to allow stupid people to do. Not even if they have carefully-written recovery procedures"
Gotta love that/. intellictual elitism.. This admin was not elected, not appointed by an elected official (he was hired by someone who was hired by someone who was appointed by a comitee of elected people). He could be working for the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots and he should still have a dr doc! on the off chance he gets killed in what ever disaster happens the people elected by the citizins of SF should have a way to hire someone else to get the system up.
"at face value that's fair enough, but he probably figured a competent replacement admin would be able to navigate the roadblocks he placed"
Not his call to make and were that the case he might have bothered to make sure that the network gear configurations could survive a reboot. This guy is a terrible admin I dont care how skilled he is.
I can see a situation in which a phone *might* make sense (kid works a late shift, has an unreliable car, etc... But I cant see the wisdom in getting a kid the iPhone or any other upper level phone. If a kid works and uses their own money thats all well and good but its way to much to give a kid because 'they need one'.
Slashdot Mirror
Seriously their government is hell bent on controlling what goes into and out of that nation and what better way to do that than by forcing people to use a proxy..
"maybe my perspective is different because i used to tutor other students in high school, but not all poor students are "pisspots""
Never said all poor student were pisspots, just said student B was, but please commence with the genuine outrage and moral superiority..
"some lack studying skills, some simply need a little extra attention or different teaching methods. it's hard to say why students do poorly."
Personally Student A was doing poorly but as I said working hard and thus deserving of a better grade than student B. We all knew the guys in High School who copied homework before classes and for that Test and quizzes were the great equalizer now that will be gone..
"besides, what's a warranted grade is subjective. this simply changing the grading scale."
No, its not if you get 10% of the answers right that a 10% and not a 50%, assign it a D- if you like (smart curves have their place) but dont take a crap and tell me is a brownie.
"there's still the top percentile and bottom percentile. it's just more forgiving for struggling students.""
This does not hurt the kids at the top, it hurts the kids in the middle to low end who now get lumped in quite nicely with the kids in the bottom. And teaching kids life hands you a 50 for doing nothing is not forgiving struggling students.
"IMO school isn't there to punish those who are lazy or unmotivated"
Nor is it there to *enable* that behavior!
"if a more forgiving grading system does that then who cares whether lazy students go home with a 50% or 0%?"
Like I said a student who copies on home works can now pull the same grades as kids putting in effort, so I guess they might care.
Are you serious?
You see implied violence in PG-13 movies all the time, you also see implied sex all the time, maybe the reason you don't see it is for the same reason that many don't see the violence, you're not sensitive to it. Hell on the 'House' season primer episode they had Cutty doing a pole dance in a dream sequence. Episodes of scrubs where JD and Elliott hook up show a good deal of flesh and that's just broadcast TV...
Never in either case in a PG-13 movies have they shown a woman's bare breast.
"how does it punish students for not gaming the system?"
Student A has trouble with math but they work their tail off in pre-calc to get through with a 65%. Student B copies their homework from someone else and does not study for the test (thus getting a 50)
Its possible for Student B to swing the same grade..
This is a crap system because it does not consider the disposition of the students and its insulting to teachers to make them give an unwarrented grade (even a 50%) to some pisspot who did not study...
Teacher pay varies from district to district but on the whole their pay is more than adequate.
Back in the day my teacher would have one day a week where you could come and do a retake on a quiz if you failed it for a max of 80%. .
But teachers in most districts have a study hall period given to them and given the school day is officially from about 8:30-3:30 staying a 45 minutes before or after once a week is not a huge burden.
Every time I hear someone barf up the old call for 'more education dollars' I have to ask how much is enough to do the job? It seems that 12.5K per kid per year is not enough in Minneapolis but a fraction of that is enough at a Catholic school..
The difference is parental involvement. You can double spending or you can cut it in half and you'll get the same results, parents are the key not federal dollars and if this is not enough evidence that many school districts don't know sh*t from shinola then there is never going to be enough.
"APPROACH ONE: The stats approach: The homocide rate per 100000 people is 5.7 in the US. That's compared to 2.03 in the UK, 1.64 in France, and 0.5 in Japan."
There is a huge false assumption here: correlation equals causation... Lets look at non violent crime rates what you will find there that Japan is more often than not among the lower rates, because of culture. There are underlying issues which pushed the US to high levels of crimes in multiple areas..
"we find that just above half the time, they kill their owners."
Via Suicide... which can be easily accomplished without guns
Maybe your passport does not have a place but my secert place is under m.... ohhhh, you're a clever one
meh, we all have abrain fart from time to time... but you make a good point, all those flks in upstate NY might like to be able to go across the border a bit easier, still I would not consolidate my ID in this fasion on principle alone! I dont think states should be issueing ID to suit federal standards..
ummm drivers license, not license plate... and a license is easier to lose.
"Our government has made it clear, non citizens are not humans"
Come off of it! Saying that rights enumerated in the constitution are for all people automatically is a debateable point. The US constitution (and the Bill of rights within) are a social contract between the American people and their government *not* definitive work on what rights all people inheirently have.
If, for example, canada bans certain public religious teachings that are allowed in the US does that mean canada does not conisder its own people human? China does not allow freedom of assembly does that mean they dont consider their people human?
And what about nations that provide services like healthcare for their own people but would not do much more than stabalize a visiting American? do they think only their citiznes? If I discover while on vacation in england that I have cancer would their refusal to treat it mean they dont think I am human?
Stop with the pointless, not to mention thoughtless, self hating mod point seeking attacks..
not keeping up with the news? its in their food as well http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/16/china.tainted.formula/index.html
BTW if you buy a car with defective brakes and hit a person with it is it your fault or the person who sold it? now lets say you sell the car to a friend before the breaks fail and he hits someone... are you, he, or the comapnie that made the car at fault?
Are you saying
1) China is not spending millions on their state owned corporations?
2) the US is ot spending millions on its space program?
Or were you just looking to bask the US?
"It's still a bad scenario, and once an employee is placed in that scenario there's really no telling what's going to happen either way."
I did not say it was a 'good' scenario but it was the *best* available and the only mature way to deal with the situation.
"All that would accomplish would be giving the passwords to the people who were never authorized to have them."
With him being fired his management had every right to say 'give us the passwords' he no onger had a right and they *define* who is authorised.
" If the employer had hired a competent admin to replace him, then yes, it would have been totally wrong of him to refuse to give those passwords to the new admin, but they didn't do that, and I'm not going to criticize the admin for not wanting to hand the passwords over to the boss who still wasn't authorized to have them."
Once he is fired its not his concern anymore, its folks like him who give IT workers a reputation for being unproessional.
"If and when the boss sticks his neck out that far, somebody's in for trouble, and it's a toss up whether he'll successfully pin it on you"
That is why you document it and immeaditly let the managers boss know what is going on. This is the *best* way out of such a senario.
"What's he supposed to do, cut out his brain and FedEx it to them?"
A simple post-it note with the passwords would do.
"Ok, well, like I said, even if it's possible there was absolutely no need to change the passwords"
we keep coming back to this, due dilligence! even if you have competant management (which he clearly did not) you need to make sure the beating of your heart is not the only thinkg keeping your employer from having to rebuild *everything*.
"We really can't assume anything because it didn't happen that way, but since he's innocent until proven guilty I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt."
Oh dont play that card you have already tried, convicted, and executed his management. You are insightful, thoughful, but nowhere near impartial..
"Be that as it may, I'd be surprised to see that it was consistently enforced in very many of them."
Im not one who thinks 'no call no foul'. If thereis a policy against it then it should not be done.
"hand over the passwords, watch his boss screw up the network, get blamed, and justify himself but be in the very bad graces of the boss, probably leading to him leaving the job."
you yourself pointed out the win, emial the guy saying 'look, you're not qualified to touch this network and you may damage it I will not give you the passrwords until you acknowledge this' and cc his boss..
"Amend (a) to someone competent. Before he was fired, he said "No I'm not giving you the passwords - you'll screw up the system." It doesn't much surprise me that after he was fired he still thought that."
except that after he was fired he had no right to own those passwords and no responsability if the network was destroyed.
"That may or may not have even been possible on that equipment, and in any event it certainly wasn't necessary"
It was cisco equipment, it is possible and if youre the only admin then it is absolutly necesary.
"True. However, passwords aren't "keys". I don't really want to get into the whole "I don't believe in imaginary property" debate here, though... IIRC, he eventually gave them the admin passwords (the relevant network passwords)."
I was, of course, using 'keys' as a metaphor but thats a debate better left for another thread. He only gave the passwords when criminal prosecution came up you get no points for that.
"He just didn't give them the password to the "Mystery Device", which isn't all that surprising since the login message claims it's his personal property (and it's not really surprising that a sysadmin would hook one of his own personal devices to the network if it served a useful purpose."
Actually most orgs over a given size have policies against such actions, unless approved my management. His 'personal property' ended up on a tax payer owned WAN without authorization, or even notification what it was doing. This to me begs the question 'what was it doing' and given its location (on the SF WAN) he can not claim privacy..
"Yes, but what's "right" often takes secondary position to what's "easy"."
And thats what makes him a bad admin..
"If the network was really as important as they apparently think it is, they should have found the money to hire redundant IT personnel. It's basically that simple."
I don't disagree, but two wrongs don't make a right, its *that* simple..
"If his employer hired another IT person, then yeah, he'd be ethically responsible to train the new guy well enough to administer the system without him. However, since his employer decided to screw him over it's not really HIS fault when they were left with no one to administer the network."
Depends on what were talking about? should he have to script everything he does to the point of being more busy maintaining scripts and docs than doing his job? no... But he should have made sure (a) someone, anyone had the passwd other than him or (b) the equipment was set up in such a way that the passwd could be reset via resetting registers, he did neither.
"Whatever. Your complaints don't change the fact that it's true."
Whats true is he was employeed, in the end, by the people of SF and due dillignce demand he had a DR doc (even if his pointy haired boss did not). Also when he was fired he should have been compelled by ethics to hand the keys back to the people who *own* the network. Being smart (and he might be brilliant) does not give you the right to take something that is not yours.
"that the PHBs were idiots and shouldn't have been trusted with admin-level passwords."
I dont doubt that management folk should not be trusted with passwrods with the rare exception of it you (a) dont have a backup or (b) have no documented proceedure for altering the passwords so that if you shed your mortal coil the network is not so ocked down it has to be rebuilt.
"Perhaps the correct response wasn't "absolutely not"... what this admin should have said was, "You're not authorized to have those passwords. If you wish to countermand protocol and you demand that I reveal them, I will have no choice but to comply, and I won't be held responsible if/when you screw everything up.""
I agree 100% The boss is not always right but he is always the bosss and if the PHB demands you do something you feel is dangerous best get him to acknowledge that. but this guy did not even turn over the passwords when fired! nor did he even have the network set up so that *anybody* could step in and take it over.
"It would be entirely in the hands of the same incompetent morons who refused to hire a second competent IT person... which, I might add, is extremely obvious common sense. "
Please dont think I am backing the morons who let this thing evolve in the first place nearly all failures in life are failures of management and good management realizes that! But even if you have a PHB you should still be an ethical employee, this guys was *clearly* not.
"Good policy dictates that you always, ALWAYS have at least TWO competent people for any mission-critical position that requires 24-hour on-call availability"
Depends on the budget, a good business continuity plan may include a contract for backup support. I have worked for companies who sent out who helpdesk at the same time for training and had a contract with a local it shop to fill in... the key for this is good documentation by the technical staff. But your point stands the management is also responable for the hit by a bus event.
"What you mean is, "He should have foreseen the possibility of being unexpectedly terminated and made things easy for his green successor to handle." Frankly, I disagree... he had no obligation whatsoever."
Unless its his organization yes, he does, have an ethical responsability. We will have to agree to disagree..
"Well, ok...but, do realize...today, more so than when I was a kid....they do like status things."
They like them just as much its just the things have changed. Back in the day the 100$ sneakers was the thing, or a gameboy, ..., ...
"And you have to remember, there are a LOT of people out there, that to them, $400 or so is pocket change and isn't very much money...hence, junior will get one of those as a cell phone."
The median American household income is 50K, or close to 1,000 a week before taxes and about 700 after taxes. Not too many people consider three days labor 'pocket change'. Especially people with kids!
The problem is parents not amking their kids work for crap, back in teh day when I wanted the super nintendo in the 8th grade my Parets told me to get a job! So I did..
Now when I had the chance to visit China with my school and I could only earn 2K of the3K needed my parents stepped up and provided me with the extra money, its not that my parents could not afford to help with the SNES its that they sure as hell were not going to spend good money on a video game system but they would do it for a life changing experience.
"Some things are just too important to allow stupid people to do. Not even if they have carefully-written recovery procedures"
Gotta love that /. intellictual elitism.. This admin was not elected, not appointed by an elected official (he was hired by someone who was hired by someone who was appointed by a comitee of elected people). He could be working for the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots and he should still have a dr doc! on the off chance he gets killed in what ever disaster happens the people elected by the citizins of SF should have a way to hire someone else to get the system up.
"at face value that's fair enough, but he probably figured a competent replacement admin would be able to navigate the roadblocks he placed"
Not his call to make and were that the case he might have bothered to make sure that the network gear configurations could survive a reboot. This guy is a terrible admin I dont care how skilled he is.
I can see a situation in which a phone *might* make sense (kid works a late shift, has an unreliable car, etc... But I cant see the wisdom in getting a kid the iPhone or any other upper level phone. If a kid works and uses their own money thats all well and good but its way to much to give a kid because 'they need one'.
and they would, I have seldom (if ever) met one who I thought was a light weight and I have been to quite a few apple stores...
they do that as well but what many on /. would consider a hard question is probably a huge out lier for what the geniuses get..
It makes me wonder what parental unit is stupid enough to give their kid an iPhone