Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experience?

CWmike writes "As part of Windows Vista's $300 million marketing rehab, Microsoft will hire an initial wave of 155 'Windows Gurus' to walk around Best Buy and Circuit City stores to answer customer questions and defend Vista's reputation against skeptics, reports say. Gurus will earn $20 an hour or more, plus benefits. (Apply here.) One way Windows Gurus will differ from Apple Geniuses is that they are not intended to be sources of free technical support for existing Vista users. 'The Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs. It is not to be an alternative tech support channel for Microsoft as this has no financial return beyond improved customer satisfaction,' Baker said. One reason: Windows Gurus could end up 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

Comments

Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

We'd... um... like to be like that company... that sells that O/S... that every one like... likes.

So we're going to send out these expensive sales people... to hype our product... but not stand behind it like the other guys do... because that would... be like work, man.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[lysergic.acid]

ok, several things:

1. real stoners don't call weed 'Sativa', as Cannabis Sativa has a low ratio of THC to CBD and also lower levels of cannabinoids in general, thus they are generally only used for manufacturing hemp, not for recreational ingestion. brick weed is generally of these strains because Sativa is much hardy as a plant, and also produces higher yields.
2. pot smokers will, however, sometimes refer to weed as "Indo," as in Cannabis _Indica_, because it is the more potent subspecies and the one primarily cultivated as a drug source. strains referred to as Chronic are generally only bred from Indica strains, though they are sometimes cross-bred with Sativa, sacrificing potency for volume.
3. the attitude displayed here is one of shortsighted greed, plain and simple. they want to attract customers & increase sales, but once they've got your money they don't give a damn about you anymore. that is the attitude Microsoft is expressing. i don't know what that has to do with pothead stereotypes.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[BrokenHalo]

real stoners don't call weed 'Sativa', as Cannabis Sativa has a low ratio of THC to CBD

Cannabis sativa is still your regular dope plant. regardless of what strain it is. The emphasis here is on the strain, biovar or subspecies, though many (perhaps most) biologists will argue that there is no such thing as the latter.

But as a former dope-head (I'm too old for it now, and I have to look after the neurons I have left), I will agree that I never gave it the appellation of "sativa" in conversation.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[spun]

I did computer security for a medical marijuana club in San Francisco, and learned quite a bit about cannabis while there. While I agree that real stoners don't call weed 'Sativa,' I disagree about the reasons.

First, Sativa does not have a low THC to CBD ratio. If anything, the reverse is true. Sativa gives an up, chatty, let's go out and do something kind of high. Indica has been bred for centuries to have a high CBD to THC ratio, for pain relief. It gives a sink you into the couch, stoned out of your gourd kind of high.

Indica and Sativa plants grow differently, sativa has a tall, rangy habit while indica grows a single, fat, 'donkey dick' bud. Under ideal conditions, both strains can produce the same amount per square foot of indoor hydroponic space. Sativa does tend to produce more outdoors on a per plant basis, however, as it can grow to enormous size.

Almost all modern pot is a hybrid between those two strains, as most recreational users tend to prefer the high from sativa, while indoor growers prefer the compact habit of indica. You can actually talk coherently on a sativa high, while medical users tend to prefer indica for its pain relief and appetite stimulating effects.

The strains bred for hemp production are generally sativa type, but these strains have very little THC at all. Modern high grade pure sativa strains generally top out around 20% THC, while indica strains can achieve 30%, and most crosses, when grown under perfect indoor hydroponic conditions, achieve 20-25%. By comparison, brick weed has about 2-5%.

As for the on-topic part of your post, I completely agree. :)

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Saint Stephen]

Dude, you know way too much about weed :-)

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true at all -- any Haze variety, such as Purple Haze is primarily, or entirely Sativa.

As for pure Indica, Northern Lights are the most common.

The vast majority are crossbreeds.

And most people call them "nugs" or "sensi" now. Only rappers and wiggers use "indo" or "chronic"

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, as a "counter-cultural horticulturist" you're partially right. Yes, Cannabis Indica does have a potent level of cannabinoids. However, so does Cannabis Sativa. You mistakenly confused Cannabis Sativa with it's industrial use cousin - Cannabis Ruderalis - which DOES have very low THC content.

Cannabis Sativa and Indica BOTH contain THC - One generally produces a muscle-relaxing "body high", while the other produces a more cerebral "head high". Common strains are blends of the two, like bubblegum, or AK-47. Depending on where in the spectrum of Indica/Sativa the hybrid lies, will determine the type of high associated with the plant.

Just wanted to clear up (pun intended) any confusion.

Side note - obtaining Ethanol from Cannabis Ruderalis (industrial hemp) is up to 80% more efficient than creating it from corn. Not to mention that Hemp can outgrow cotton 8 to 1 - and can actually grow under some of the harshest soil conditions, i.e. it is very easy to grow.

There is absolutely no reason, given today's economy and energy crises, that raising Hemp for industrial reasons should be prohibited by law. Contact your state representative!

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[plague3106]

In regard to your third comment, I'd have to say that's simply not true. I've contacted their support a few times, and was suprised when I actually got a real email back at 7PM on a Friday night. The email even included the proper fix to my problem.

I wish I could say the same about hardware manufacters though..

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

Sativa is the lower yielding more potent species. It has a much longer flowering time making it difficult to grow indoors. Sativas are crossed with indicas to increase their potency and to reduce the sativa flowering time. Indicas are generally known for their body high, while sativas are more known for their brain high. Indicas tend to put you to sleep. Sativas wake up your brain.

All in all your knowledge is totally backwards.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

as a weed smoker and former grower i can tell you that you don't know much about weed.

first cannabis sativa is the species name, yes indica and sativa are species and or subspecies. there are also a few more subspecies. The whole thing isnâ(TM)t really that clear.

cannabis sativa is hemp, but certain strains from satvia tend to have a "heady" high. Cultivars from indica tend to be more "stoney" often you have a hybrid of the 2 and a mixing of effects.

you canâ(TM)t smoke hemp. Well you could but you would never get high, just a head ache. A hemp field would also render any marijuana grown near it useless and seedy. Marijuana is a type of hemp, just like you have types of corn and wheat. Those properties must be selected for and maintained. Otherwise it goes right back to being hemp.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Khyber]

1. WRONG. Ruderalis was the strain used primarily for making hemp ropes. Sativas buds are small and STRINGY (pure sativas, anyways) while Indica buds are fat and hard like rocks. Most weed found today is a cross between the two, although there are some ruderalis crosses specifically for auto-flowering (no need to change light timing,) but the yields of THC are reduced due to Ruderalis not producing any worthwhile amount of THC.

2. WRONG. THC is the main psychoactive ingredient, CBD and CBN are PRECURSORS. THC is made in the trichrome of the flower,where UV light is filtered and used to convert CBD and CBN into THC. You can also make THC from CBD and CBN using a weak acid bath.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to school to continue my degree in Cannabis Cultivation (Yes, it's an actual degree here in California!)

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[lysergic.acid]

no, i just go by scientific data rather than drug myths/hearsay/urban legends.

while, as another poster pointed out, there are some high-potency sativa strains which i neglected to consider, the cannabinoid ratios of indica vs. sativa are well-documented, wheras there is so scientific basis for your claims of "Indicas tend to put you to sleep. Sativas wake up your brain."

people who rely entirely on anecdotal evidence and subjective statements are generally the type who are easily deluded by the placebo effect and misinterpret psychosomatic symptoms for factual reality. instead of going along with what all your friends say, it it would be wise to actually perform some research on the documented pharmacological effects and other research data regarding the drugs you consume.

of course, you sound like the type of person who probably also believes that methadone poisons your bones, LSD crystals form in your spinal cord, and that coke from the 80's (or "good coke") produces no peripheral stimulation or causes come downs as other stimulants do.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Khyber]

Can you tell me the strain that has 30%? Last I heard it was only physically possible for about 23% THC production in the trichrome due to the size of the pocket inside of the gland.

Brick weed is stuff that's been kiefed and then compressed - it's also generally been exposed to light, which destroys THC over time.

Wow, I study to get a degree in Cannabis Cultivation/Business and end up using the knowledge on Slashdot. What's the world coming to?

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[popeye44]

In other news, Fresno County just approved pot cards :D

I'm a Guru, Rhymes with Gum-Shoe or poo-poo.
I'm not sure I could stand working at BB or this might be a fun part time job for Xmas money. I should be qualified I've installed their OS 400+ X of course being as that is kinda my job I guess I'm overqualificated.

Ars has the job bulletin up for Guru's. For those of you who only turn to Linux for a sleep aid. :-]

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[spun]

Well, I could be wrong about the percentages, and maximum THC percentage certainly depends on the growing method as well. This was in 2000-2002, and I'm not in that business anymore. I think the 30% was quoted for some of the new Dutch strains.

I wasn't aware of a pocket in the trichome, but I do know that various strains produce different size and densities of trichomes. The better strains are nearly covered in trichomes, all of them huge fat globs on the ends of the hairs.

I know that the trichomes themselves contain much higher than 30% THC. Water hash, which is mostly compressed trichomes, has higher than 30% THC content, so the trichomes themselves must have more than that. I always thought the percentage figures included leaf matter and stems, so not only growing methods, but trimming methods can make a difference.

THC production also depends on timing. Make sure to harvest just after the trichomes turn amber. Past that point, the THC starts to break down into other compounds. Before that point, production hasn't peaked.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[mweather]

Sativa produced higher yields? No. It has a much longer internodal length resulting in ligher, wispy buds. Also Sativa has a higher ratio of THC to CBD. Indica has a low ratio. That's why Indica makes it hard to get up off the couch, while Sativa can actually be uplifting.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[CSMatt]

I see you have admitted to smoking the reefer earlier in your life. Expect a pink slip come Monday.

-- Your Boss.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[darkvizier]

We'd... um... like to be like that company... that sells that O/S... that every one like... likes.

So we're going to send out these expensive sales people... to hype our product... but not stand behind it like the other guys do... because that would... be like work, man.

Ah, I see. It's like the Cheech and Chong approach to product support. Groovy.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Windowser]

Last I heard it was only physically possible for about 23% THC production in the trichrome due to the size of the pocket inside of the gland.

The Montreal Police Department asserted that we have 25% THC in our Quebec Gold http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/canadasenate/vol1/chapter5_thc_concentrations.htm

La Belle Province indeed

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[DrSkwid]

"Our own founder, Tom Forçade, used to personally fly planeloads of Colombian sativa, then known as the strongest smoke on the market, into the country."

http://hightimes.com/entertainment/ht_admin/1670

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[rocketPack]

This sounds like a terrific new opportunity for GNU/Linux and Mac users to get out more often: to go harass the local Windows Guru for a couple of hours as entertainment.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[phreakhead]

Actually, as an experienced ex-stoner, Sativa and Indica can both be very powerful strains, although they have different effects:

• Sativa gives a more heady, energetic high which is best for creative work (art/music) and social interaction.
• Indica gives more of a body-high, which is a good painkiller but also makes you very sluggish, tired and mentally slow.
• Generally, Sativa strains are better for daytime or social use, whereas Indica strains are better for medicinal use, sleep aids, or getting hella baked and playing video games on the couch.
• However, most strains are a combination of Sativa and Indica, not only to get the best effects of both, but because in the 1960's, when everyone was homegrowing indoors, they mixed the traditional Sativa strains with Indica because Indica grows shorter and fatter than Sativa, thus making it ideal for high-yields in small spaces like closets. (source: The Anarchist's Cookbook, Ch 2. [Yes that's right, I cited an actual paper book on Slashdot. Mod as you wish.])

When I used to buy weed, (and I bought a lot, since we have medical here in California), I usually requested Sativa so I could still interact with people and use my brain in a normal manner without falling asleep. The media's common depiction of a "stoner" is of one who smokes a lot of Indica, thus the droopy eyelids, slow talking, and general unresponsiveness which is probably what you're thinking of.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[phoomp]

You mean that company that's been releasing alot of buggy software lately? You know, that company that makes fun of how buggy *other* company's software is?

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Jaysyn]

And all this time I thought it was called indo because it was grown "indoors"!

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[korbin_dallas]

Yeah, so is the uniform a "No, I will not fix your computer" t-shirt!

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[jaguth]

30% seems pretty high. The last time I checked, %15-20% were the highest dutch figures. of course hashing it makes it much more dense, thus increasing the percentage. But I do like this thread, as i'm sure a "Windows Guru" knows less about Windows than the average stoner.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[spun]

15-20% seems right for the whole plant, but well manicured buds should have a higher trichome to regular plant matter ratio. Perhaps the figures I was quoting were for perfectly manicured buds, and the lower figures are for the entire plant?

I remember being told that 15-20% was the most that one could usually hope for, and the higher figures were for the best strains grown, cured, and trimmed perfectly. But you know how stoners are, those numbers could all have been completely made up :).

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

And the "Windows Guru" definitley does not know this much about weed neither, man, i'll stick to /....

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[sakasune]

Dude, you know way too much about weed :-)

No such thing :)

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Dr. Smoove]

Exhibit A: Your brain on drugs. It's sizzling, has a yellow center, and is mighty tasty with hot sauce. 1. wrong. sativas are tall stringy plants that grow in areas like jamaica and mexico you fucktard. they have longer flowering periods, they make for lousy commercial operations indoors and are generally only grown inside for connoisseurs in small amounts for personal use. the reason bricsk are usually sativa is because they come from DING DING DING outside in subtropic to tropic areas, unless you're talking about mountain type stuff from the middle east which would thenm be short plants with shorter flowering periods and higher yields called 'indica'. 2. It's "indo" because it's growing INDOORS and not to be racist or anything pretend you're black and for a second and say indoor. You will notice tyou just said indo. Refer to Exhibit B: The Chronic by doctor dre (not a real doctor btw) Beyond gardening I enjoy Italian cuisine, the C Programming Language and raging funk music.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[BrentH]

Jeebus H Christ, on an article about Vista promotions the first 30 first 30 or so posts are nitpicking about weed. Priorities people! /First/ Vista bashing, /then/ back to smoking pot!

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

Sativa gives you a better buzz, even if it comes from a brick. Sativa is the stereotypical stoned and laughing you see in movies. Indica is watching crappy t.v. for hours on end because you don't want to get up. I smoke a lot of pot.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[cultofmetatron]

ok, several more things...
1.) while Hemp may be a strain of cannabis sativa, there are in fact plenty of sativa strains containing thc among a cocktail of other euphoria inducing cannabinoids. Purple Haze for nstance is a sativa, not an Indica. Also, Indica is a hardier plant actually and there are stains that grow up to 6 feet tall
2.) never heard of "Indo" but the effects garnered from indica are diffrent from sativa, Indica strains are heavier leading to an intense body high while sativa strains more to a cerebral heady awake kind of high. I wouldn't descrive either as "LESS"
3.) Agreed

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[cl0s]

Too much info. There's dirt, airy & kind bud (which includes haze, kush, dro, etc.). I usually buy a half oz of airy because its cheap and last me the week. Kind bud on occasion, some uptown haze or cali kush when I get the chance.

What that has to do with Microsoft? Not sure, but works over and I got a roach waiting in the car!

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[ta bu shi da yu]

Well, it's certainly clear you don't consume it yourself.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah and who the hell calls it indo cuz it's indica?

It's "endo".

urbandictionary definition:
endo
The bottom tips of the marijuana plant that accumulate the most resin and crystals after being hung to dry.
Because its so dank, endo usually costs more.

2nd definition:
"Endo" = pot grown indoors, as opposed to outdoors.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[falsified]

Is that still true? I've never grown but I thought indica was preferred (at least for growing domestically, and outdoors) because it's much shorter and therefore harder to see aerially (and probably faster to grow).

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[d3ac0n]

Is it just me, or is this entire thread reminding anyone else of this:

Dude: - Hey Front! You got a mag?
Front: - Ex Cash man... I mean I quit.
Dude: - Whaaat? You mean if I took out a fattie RIGHT NOW, you wouldn't spark it?
Front: - Whoah! I'm impressed that you rolled a whole Z of Mexican brickweed into one J, but I'm not tempted!
Dude: - I don't smoke no brickweed man, this is Mountain Kind right here.
Front: - For real? Ya got a light?

Or am I the only one that occasionally fires up MC Frontalot on the drive home from work?

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[ksd1337]

I smoked some G13 yesterday, and do you know what happened? Duke Nukem Forever was released!

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[metlin]

Duuuuuuude! Word.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[jeremiahbell]

Six feet tall eh? Hemp can make it well over twelve feet. Right out back of my house there is about ten acres of Hemp, and where it has plenty of water and sunlight there are plants more than twice my height (about six foot). I am amazed by the variety of wild hemp. Some of it is short, stubby with big buds, and some is giant monsters of plants as wide as you are tall. It is all worthless for smoking, but screw the stoners, we have an energy crisis to fix and we can use it for that. P.S. - no stoners, the shorty stubby ones that resemble indica, or might have some indica genes will not get you high.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

The truth about Macs: Mac is all about image. The customers are people who buy into that image. As long as it looks fabulous and the reps assure them it is "the best", they'll buy anything. These are the same people that drive BMWs, wear Nike shoes, and have Calvin Klein underwear. They pay $3000 for a sleek laptop when they could have the same thing but not so sleek for $700. What's really gonna get their panties in a bunch is when they find out they're running a Linux mod without all the cool free stuff... lol

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Kattspya]

There are plenty of hybrids which are more than 50% Sativa while still producing plenty of THC. The problem with Sativa isn't the potency but the phenotype not being well suited for in-doors growing. Some Sativa heavy hybrids might also have a lower yield but I'm not certain.

In grower/smoker circles Sativa heavy strains are usually considered to be more up than down and affects your mind more than your body. Medical strains on the other hand tend to be dominated by Indica.

Don't forget to check my footnotes. I have just as many as you do.

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[cultofmetatron]

12 feet? well I for one worship our impending medicinally laced overlords...

Re:Now we know who's been Bogarting the Sativa

[Anonymous Coward]

I admit too! I smoke pot!

Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[bigtallmofo]

FTA: The good thing is that Microsoft will be able to get Windows explained appropriately on the sales floor.

Oh my God, does this sound ominous. Any Best Buy employee explaining Windows "inappropriately" will be taken out back by a Windows Guru and "evangelized".

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[NeverVotedBush]

I think "explained appropriately" is all in the eye of the beholder.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[BitterOldGUy]

FTA: The good thing is that Microsoft will be able to get Windows explained appropriately on the sales floor. Oh my God, does this sound ominous. Any Best Buy employee explaining Windows "inappropriately" will be taken out back by a Windows Guru and "evangelized".

It's Windows we're talking about here; not OSX.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Just Some Guy]

Any Best Buy employee explaining Windows "inappropriately" will be taken out back by a Windows Guru and "evangelized".

"This sucks - avoid it" is appropriate, although perhaps not what they intended.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Stanistani]

As a newly hired Windows guru, I pledge to teach breathing exercises, tantric meditation, and contemplation of your inner penguin.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[orclevegam]

FTA: The good thing is that Microsoft will be able to get Windows explained appropriately on the sales floor. Oh my God, does this sound ominous. Any Best Buy employee explaining Windows "inappropriately" will be taken out back by a Windows Guru and "evangelized".

It's Windows we're talking about here; not OSX.

Precisely, if it was OS X it would be the customers taking the employee outback, not the company rep.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Ethanol-fueled]

That's why they're paid 20 bucks an hour!
Slashdotters - give 'em hell. Here are a few questions to ask:

"Where can I get that Linux thing that everybody's talking about?"

"What's the point of those stupid commercials we keep seeing? It's like Bill Gates has money and likes to mock us."

"Do windows PCs suck as much as the Mac ads say they do? I want to be cool, not old and dumb."

"Why did Windows Vista fuck my wife? I heard it also eats babies and starts wars with defenseless countries."

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[FudRucker]

what would be good is if everyone that uses Linux would go to BestBuy and look at Windows Vista PCs and mention that they prefer Linux just to get the idea/word across that they are not interested in Vista...

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Amazing Quantum Man]

OK, so they'll either:

1. Have a chair thrown at them
2. Have their F***ING air supply cut off!

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[ByOhTek]

what bothers me even more:

> The Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs.
? It is not to be an alternative tech support
> channel for Microsoft as this has no financial
> return beyond improved customer satisfaction,'

So, let me get this straight. They are trying to improve customer satisfaction by telling everyone how great it is, but not provide help to get it to do what they want.

Funny. That's /exactly/ my experience with Linux evangelizers, and the primary reason I don't use Linux.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[ronoholiv]

So, let me get this straight. They are trying to improve customer satisfaction by telling everyone how great it is, but not provide help to get it to do what they want.

Not completely. It seems that they can answer questions as long as they don't have to fix a problem. After all, these "gurus" will have to run how-to trainings and workshops. However, the "gurus" would have to defer true technical support to Geek Squad/Firedog idiots.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[ByOhTek]

Given my experience with that crowd...

That's an even WORSE way to get customer satisfaction.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[PenguSven]

That's why they're paid 20 bucks an hour!

Um.. are you under some delusion that $20/hr is a LOT?

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Machtyn]

Are you thinking it's that hard to evangelize a BB employee to Microsoft? I mean, they are working for Best Buy, right?

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Jarjarthejedi]

If those are the best you've got then I'd happily be paid $20 to discuss Vista with you. And I don't even use it (probably disqualifies me :P).

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[russotto]

Um.. are you under some delusion that $20/hr is a LOT?

Probably is, compared to what the regular Best Buy salesdrones are getting. I'm wondering if this is some sort of masterful plan by Steve Jobs. After the sort of "defense" Vista will get from Best Buy employees, I doubt anyone will want to buy it!

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Ethanol-fueled]

It may not be a lot in the grand scheme of things but it is a lot just for being a PC salesman(i.e. a starving student) whose job is to be a mouthpiece soapbox shill who dosen't even offer any helpful advice, much less fix anything!

As others have pointed out, it might even be fair -- danger pay, you see :)

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Machtyn]

Not only that, but they can mock the Vista Aero and say, "Hm, yeah, Mac had that several years ago and Linux had that before then."

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Machtyn]

Strangely, I've found all the help I've needed to get Linux up and running. The help forums and IRC channels are very good. Yes, you get some jerks, but for the most part, people are ready and willing to help you "learn" how to use it (not just tell you what to do). Yes, sometimes that means RTFM.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[sumdumass]

It is a lot for the lower qualifies MS drones.

That was MS's entire point behind all those TCO studies that they published way back, windows is cheaper over the long run because you don't need an expensive techs like with Linux/Unix. I know a couple of windows techs, assuming it is a full time gig with benefits like medical and not just free versions of Vista or office, who would love a $36,000 or so a year job. ($20/hour at 36 hours a week and 50 weeks a year)

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[hardburn]

If you don't live on the east or west coast, yes.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[PitaBred]

In many areas of the country, it IS a lot for the type of job they're doing, especially since it almost certainly doesn't require a serious education. It's not exactly a "highly skilled" profession, it's just sales. A kid with a high-school diploma and some interest can do it.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Windows_NT]

Hey, 20/hr isnt bad. Especially in Northern Minnesota, For programming, i dont make quite that much. And for being a linux slacker (slackware, yo!) Id walk around ShittyCircuts and tell them how awesome Vista is. Maybe they will buy it, and get home, and install it, and then be pissed at me for lieing!

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that the national median household income is about $4k more and most households are two income, $41k/year is pretty darn good.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Firehed]

Yeah, but at least Linux distros have some decent material in their myriad forums. I don't use Linux either for much the same reason, but at least their support sites don't tend to be unhelpful error messages followed by a popup for Silverlight (which doesn't do a damn thing to enhance the site if you install it, by the way, other than stopping the damn ad from showing again).

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[PenguSven]

Um, no, it just means you have a shit load of low-income households.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[ByOhTek]

Yeah, but at least in other groups, I am given a rough idea of where to look.

"I have TV Tuner XYZ, I don't know how to get it to work, can anyone help?"

My experiences:
Linux: "RTFM"
FreeBSD: "Handbook, chapter XX.Y"
Windows: Usually it just works. When it doesn't I usually end up getting a reference to a web page.

That tends to be my experience with each OS. Sometimes the reason I can't get something to work, is I don't know /where/ to look. More often than not, I haven't gotten even that minimal amount of assistance from the Linux community. But they are more than willing to tell me how great it is. I'd qualify that with some recent experiences - The Ubuntu and Gentoo communities have usually been a lot better at giving useful suggestions on where/what criteria to look than the others.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Colonel Korn]

That's why they're paid 20 bucks an hour!
Slashdotters - give 'em hell. Here are a few questions to ask:

 

"Where can I get that Linux thing that everybody's talking about?"

"What's the point of those stupid commercials we keep seeing? It's like Bill Gates has money and likes to mock us."

"Do windows PCs suck as much as the Mac ads say they do? I want to be cool, not old and dumb."

"Why did Windows Vista fuck my wife? I heard it also eats babies and starts wars with defenseless countries."

Try going into an Apple store and asking for the identity of all of the processes run by iTunes for Windows. I do it or a variation every time I go to the mall and have time to spare. It's genuinely fun - but please be polite, accept the amusement brought about by the answer, thank the Genius and walk away.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[superbus1929]

Yes, but at least Linux evangelists are only on forums, and in basements. These guys are RIGHT IN YOUR FACE. :(

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[myz24]

Yes, $20 is an assload of cash to pay someone to simply walk around and defend an operating system. Either you're too elite to think $20 is quite a bit or your delusional on what you're going to be making after school, either way you have to take into considering what this monkey is doing. Microsoft has to PAY people $20 an hour to convince people that Vista isn't so bad, something Linux and OS X users do for free everyday.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[superbus1929]

And do what, exactly? Tell that to someone that now knows you're not going to be a purchaser, so they can move on somewhere else? That's a waste of gas, if you ask me.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[surferx0]

what would be good is if everyone that uses Linux would go to BestBuy and look at Windows Vista PCs and mention that they prefer Linux just to get the idea/word across that they are not interested in Vista...

Who exactly would you be getting the word out to? I work for one of these companies and it's hilarious when idiots walk in and start ranting about random BS to me thinking I am somehow responsible for the production and engineering decisions of the products we sell or that I have anything to do with the company policies and purchasing decisions.

Look, we're mostly college students just there doing a mindless job to make a paycheck at the end of the week. We don't care that you have some love affair with Linux and that you think computers should come with it instead of Vista, do you want me to go get the laptop out of the lock-up cage or not is all I give a crap about.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Dan667]

That has not been my experience with Linux. I can google any problem I have on Linux and find an answer or post to a forum for free (as in beer) help. Now, I may get help from a 35 year old man living in his parents basement that berates me for being an idiot over and over while getting the answer, but you cannot have everything.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why did Windows Vista fuck my wife? I heard it also eats babies and starts wars with defenseless countries."

Two of those are bugs, the other is a feature. Which ones are which is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[moderatorrater]

That's /exactly/ my experience with Linux evangelizers, and the primary reason I don't use Linux.

Yeah, and also, they're paid to do it.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[mpoulton]

"This sucks - avoid it" is appropriate, although perhaps not what they intended.

About a month ago, I had a Best Buy salesman tell me just that! Looking at new laptops, I commented that they all ran Vista and I considered that a problem. He proceeded to tell me that Vista is so bad that not a single one of their laptops runs well with it, and I should probably not buy one at all! He went on to say that I should hold out until Windows 7 comes out, if I can, because Vista is so bad that Microsoft will never fix it.

I couldn't believe I was hearing this from a BB sales drone. I'm not kidding. I wonder if he was an early pioneer of this "Windows Guru" program?

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[RiotingPacifist]

with linux i find that support often takes a while (especially IRC) but aslong as im friendly ive only had 1 problem (some idiot insiting everything was flash's fault) hell yesterday i actually got help from the developer of my webcam driver. the key is not to pretend that linux owes you something.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

"Man this Vista thing sounds pretty neat. Does it run Linux?"

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[ByOhTek]

I don't pretend it owes me something. It doesn't. Nor does it's users.

That being said, if it doesn't provide what I want (decent documentation, friendly community, etc.) I don't owe it anything either.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[smoker2]

How many people do you evangelize windows to then ?
Or are you just a tight fuck all round ?

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

"OK Mr windows best buy guy, why would I use windows Vista on my 1.6Ghz Atom based netbook with 8GB flash drive?"

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[MBGMorden]

For this type of job (glorified retail sales drone), yes, it's a whole hell of a lot. Depending on the area, it's a lot regardless. Cost of living varies from place to place. I know lots of places where anybody making more than $15/hr is considered to be doing pretty good for themselves.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why did Windows Vista fuck my wife? ..."

Guru reply: "That's nothing! I heard there was a Linux filesystem that killed someone's wife!"

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

pointless post, but that made me lol.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[operagost]

OS/2 fans used to do that back in the 1990s and it didn't work then either... unless by "work" you mean "appear really lame and obnoxious."

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[jimicus]

"Linux support" is an extremely broad brush because really it depends on what package you're talking about. I'm a sysadmin so most of my experience relates to Linux on the server type issues, but I can tell you now:

OpenLDAP : Frequently outright hostile to newbies. Core product is good at what it does, but is severely limited in terms of features compared to every other LDAP server around. The core developer team will actually go so far as to write papers explaining why OpenLDAP is better than any other LDAP server and why feature "X" cannot reliably/sensibly be implemented by anybody because it's physically impossible (even if feature "X" is already implemented by every other LDAP server in existence). Strangely, these people don't seem to object too loudly if a new version of OpenLDAP supports feature "X". (Any OpenLDAP supporters who wish to dispute this, first examine the mailing lists for the history of multimaster replication in OpenLDAP).

Samba : Generally very helpful, but expect you to have RTFM and ask intelligent questions. If there's one fault there are about 100 ways you can write a configuration file such that Samba will run and seem to broadly work but under specific circumstances will fail to work as expected in various interesting ways, none of which are discussed in the manual. The FM only discusses configurations that do work, and it's very easy to have a single line that messes everything up.

Bacula : Very helpful mailing list. Core developers hang out on it and have been known to diplomatically raise it as an issue when unwelcoming "RTFM n00b!" replies are sent.

Ubuntu Forums : No disrespect, but once you get to a certain point in Linux you're generally better off joining the mailing list that applies to the specific app that's causing trouble. I've read plenty of threads in these forums which went on for pages when they could be answered in one short paragraph and thought "In the valley of the blind...."

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[operagost]

Well, it's just enough to kick you into the 25% tax bracket (or the 28%, if Obama's tax plan goes into effect).

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[jedidiah]

If you don't give volunteers the same consideration that
you would be expected to give some Dell phone drone, then
don't expect any help.

Saying "waah it doesn't work" won't get you very far.

Being a total ignoramus is probably what got you the RTFM response.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[pembo13]

If you hit up the IRC rooms of most distros (at least Fedora) you should get some fairly good support.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[JackieBrown]

I make a little over $15.00 an hour and that's pretty good for San Antonio.

http://www.bls.gov/ro6/fax/oes_sa.htm

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

Still waiting for a reply on how to fix your spell checker, I see.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Bob Loblaw]

And I don't even use it (probably disqualifies me :P).

Actually ... that makes you imminently qualified since your mind is not polluted with things like "facts" and "knowledge" about Vista. You might have a chance at saying nice things about it.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Sentry21]

Try going into an Apple store and asking for the identity of all of the processes run by iTunes for Windows. I do it or a variation every time I go to the mall and have time to spare. It's genuinely fun

You must be a blast at parties.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

What really sucks is when you tell them you want the laptop but not the overpriced crappy OS and they say "Sorry, we can't sell it without Vista".

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

Don't forget sphincter relaxation techniques and reach-around methodology.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

Or "Can you explain the End User License Agreement to me?"
"What's the telephone number for tech support? What level of service can I expect?"(they might have anticipated this one)
"Where's the manual?"
"What's the upgrade path going to be in the future? What will be the total cost of ownership?"
"How much will it cost to have it customized?"
"What encryption standards are supported?"
"What standardized protocols/file formats does it support out of the box?"
"How much ram does Internet Exploder 8 use?"
"How many threads does Internet Exploder 8 open?"

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[TheViewFromTheGround]

Actually.... perhaps that is partially the point. The boys and girls at Best Buy and Circuit City are starting to talk shit about Vista, and MS really can't stop them. But planting a Windows Guru at prominent stores means that MS can keep tabs on other salespeople.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[stewbacca]

Depends on what an Apple Genius makes. In any case, it's not a lot for me (tech writer), or for a lawyer, or anyone with an established career, but it is a lot for someone (probably in college) serving in what boils down to a customer service position.

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[stewbacca]

$41k/year is pretty darn good.

Uhh...are you serious? I'm rich, bitches! (even without my wife's income doubling my income).

Re:Anyone named Bruno instantly hired

[Anonymous Coward]

All three of you?

Guru? Not really ...

[bestinshow]

Only people in marketing could come up with the term "guru" to mean "someone who can't help, and exists to market to you until you give in".

And Microsoft misses one of the myriad small points in why Apple is seen positively by so many people despite having software release management run by a Crurotarsan.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[ColdWetDog]

Only people in marketing could come up with the term "guru" to mean "someone who can't help, and exists to market to you until you give in".

OK guys, let's help:

Windows Warriors?
Vista Vultures?
Ballmer's Boys?
Hardy Heron?

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Only people in marketing could come up with the term "guru" to mean "someone who can't help, and exists to market to you until you give in".

Actually, see definition 2b at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guru

"one who is an acknowledged leader or chief proponent"

These people are "chief proponents." This is actually using the word correctly.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Spazztastic]

But... but... $20 extra an hour?! That'll certainly pull in a few MCPs! Come on!

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoooosh

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[devman]

Woooooosh!

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[JustinOpinion]

Indeed. These "gurus" are just marketers under a different name. Of course, the intention is to deceive the customer into thinking they are getting impartial technical advice, when in fact they are getting a sales pitch. Some quotes from TFA show that people are already fooled:

"After years of monopolistic behavior, Microsoft is finally recognizing the need for the softer things, dealing with customers in a higher-touch way," said Lisa Bradner, an analyst at Forrester Research Inc. "All of our research shows that customers want their hands held. They're tired of being dumped to a Web site where they have to look through some FAQs."

Yet the article points out that the purpose of the gurus is NOT to hand-hold with respect to fixing problems, or even selecting the most appropriate product. Rather, it is to convince the customer to buy a Vista computer. This isn't a "softer" approach: it is another avenue for them to continue their usual (monopolistic?) tactics.

I worry about this because most in-store customers will assume that the "gurus" are providing sound technical advice, but instead they are just trying to get them to buy something. The same could be said of the other store employees, I suppose; but in this case instead of steering the customer towards buying *something*, they will invariably steer the customer towards Vista. Regardless of whether or not it is the right choice for them.

I can see this causing headaches for the stores as well. When a customer seeks out an employee for help, they are typically not aware of the distinction between different departments. Customers may become frustrated when they ask a "guru" for help but said employee can't help them ("I'm looking for a new washer/dryer." "Have you considered this Windows Vista Home Media Center desktop computer?" "WTF?")

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Hyppy]

I wouldn't hire an MCSE for that much. Minimum wage plus a paid lunch break (15 minutes). Max.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[voodoosoup]

oh boy! that 70-620 cert will finally come in handy for something! gah.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[cleatsupkeep]

You put the oosh in woosh.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[_Sprocket_]

Someone needs a little explanation of the joke from the Ballmer Boys.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[JamesP]

Hardy Heron

No, I think Feisty Fawn may be more apropriate...

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Woosh.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[i_liek_turtles]

Looking at most Best Buy employees, Warty Warthog would be more appropriate.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[f0dder]

Needs Masturbating Monkeys & Wanking Walruses

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[CaptSaltyJack]

I'll admit it openly (without using the "post anonymously" cover) that I also didn't get the Hardy Heron joke. Someone care to explain? Yes, I get it that each of the names has two words that start with the same letter. But... "someone who can't help, and exists to market to you until you give in"? How does Hardy Heron fit that description?

/I admit it..I'm slow sometimes

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[initialE]

Hardly Heron you mean. Anyway, if I wanted someone to talk to, now instead of going online and being an ass, I can go into a store and be an ass... in real life... Because you know what they say about arguing on the internet and all.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Bryansix]

That's really dumb. Yes, the cert by itself doesn't mean much. But if this MSCE had 4 years system admin experience and just as many years Desktop support they they are damn well worth more then minimum wage. I'd start them around $15-18 an hour.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Hatta]

Only people in marketing could come up with the term "guru" to mean "someone who can't help, and exists to market to you until you give in".

Really? That sounds to me like exactly what a "guru" does. Isn't that the perfect way to describe this guy?

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[ByOhTek]

It's the name of a version of Ubuntu

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[JWW]

Look here http://releases.ubuntu.com/8.04/

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[CaptSaltyJack]

Yeah I get that :) I'm using Hardy. But I don't see how it fits in with Windows Warriors, Ballmer's Boys, and the idea of someone in a store pushing marketing BS on you.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[scrib]

Microsoft Marketeers

M I C, See the UAC!
R O S, Our O/S boots!
O F T, F U!

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

$20/hour is dirt. What qualified person would accept this kind of money?

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Machtyn]

Only people in marketing could come up with the term "guru" to mean "someone who can't help

Congrats, bestinshow, you've come up with my next tag line!

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[RobertM1968]

What I think will be interesting is when the rest of Best Buy's "less paid but do more work" employees get fed up with the fact that there are staff on hand who make $5-12/hr more for simply being able to lie.

Think about it.... be a member of the "Geek Squad" and actually be the person stuck dealing with Vista and other issues, and actually be responsible for fixing problems, and you get paid less. Run around all day convincing people that Vista is great, do nothing to alleviate customer issues (other than point them to the less paid "Geek Squad" members) and get paid significantly more.

I think this is a wonderful way at raising employee moral. I wonder how much money Best Buy is getting handed from Microsoft to make this happen - or if they (Best Buy) are just too brain dead to realize it's going to piss off the rest of their less paid/do more (or real) work staff - or if this is a "requirement" that Microsoft stipulated for some future or continuing concession for carrying certain products.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[curmudgeous]

I think they should hire women wrestlers and call them the "Vista Valkyries".

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Firehed]

Sorry, but I dibsed WW on behalf of my fellow Mac users.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[spazdor]

Each is a proposed name for a strategy to solve Microsoft's crappy-OS reputation problems.

Hardy Heron names an altogether different strategy...

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your geek card has been revoked. Awareness of other operating system/distributions is mandatory.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Eil]

Of course, the intention is to deceive the customer into thinking they are getting impartial technical advice, when in fact they are getting a sales pitch.

The isn't the first time Microsoft has tried to deceive people into using Vista. Every time I run into some one who claims that Vista is actually doing well or (heaven forbid) a competent OS, I pull up the Mojave Experiment site and say, "Look, Vista is so bad that Microsoft now has to trick ordinary people into using it."

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ballmer's Butt-boys you meant.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[CaptSaltyJack]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, got it! Thanks.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[HAKdragon]

What does Tron have to do with this?

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[jp10558]

I swear, and this bears it out, you get paid more without certs. Actually, the recent Redmond magizine also showed this in their 08 salary survey, though they were slightly higher amounts . . .

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[jp10558]

If customers want their hands held, they're going to need to actually pay someone as an impartial consultant, or find a friend / relative who is qualified to do said holding. The downside is many of the qualified people charge significantly more per hour than MS is paing their sales drones, and figuring out if one is reputable is like finding a good doctor or good mechanic - hard.

Seriously, get ready to pay per hour, and at rates that are similar to your car mechanics.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[CodeBuster]

"Have you considered this Windows Vista Home Media Center desktop computer?" "WTF?"

That reminds me of the old MUD days when certain theme areas would have annoying mobs that followed you around and spammed you with themed slogans like that. Invariable the mob was named "annoying salesman" or something else like that. In fact it probably went something like this:

> Annoying Salesman: Have you considered this Windows Vista Home Media Center desktop computer?

> consider salesman

> consider: annoying salesman appears weak to you...

> attack salesman

combat> you attack annoying salesman and HIT (12 damage)...

combat> annoying salesman grabs the nearest chair and readies it for his next attack...

combat> you attack annoying salesman and MISS...

combat> annoying salesman throws the chair and HITS (1 damage)...

combat> you attack annoying salesman and CRITICAL HIT (24 damage)...

combat> annoying salesmen is stunned and misses next turn...

combat> you attack annoying salesman and HIT (8 damage)...

combat> annoying salesman dies...

> loot

> you loot the corpse of the annoying salesman for 20gp

> exit s

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

2nd Weekend job and a store discount to buy more toys :) might be worth it..

Nah.. I couldn't wash off the guilt from pushing Vista on unsuspecting customers all day.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Blakey Rat]

Rather, it is to convince the customer to buy a Vista computer. This isn't a "softer" approach: it is another avenue for them to continue their usual (monopolistic?) tactics.

Now plain ol' fashioned marketing counts as "monopolistic?" It's official: the word has lose all meaning.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

I am so glad I am a Unix admin. I don't think I could afford to eat on $15-18 am hour.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[orlanz]

This is exactly what I was thinking. Compared to CC and CompUSA, BB has "knowledgeable staff" on the floor... from the average customer's point of view. Now I can easily see the average customer going to the "guru" thinking he is the expert of experts instead of the actually product experts.

Their experience is pretty much going to be what I recently had at a CC store. The bloody expert (normally called a car salesman) tried to explain what a "Thin DLP" was compared to a regular DLP, and the benefits of that additional foot of space, in trying to convince us to buy the DLP. No, I kid you not!! And that wasn't anything remotely close to our question!!

I think this is going to make BestBuy look like crap in terms of customer assistance and bring it down to CC and take CC a few notches down.

It might help sales, but it certainly won't help image. People are going to take this stuff home, and still hate it (those who didn't in the 1st place don't need salesman). But this time, they will blame Bestbuy and CC along with Vista.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista Vixens, appropriately staffed, would do the trick ;-)

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Employees want the customer to be satisfied because that means they ensure future purchases because they've gained the customer's trust. Furthermore, finding the customer what they want avoids stupid returns and complaints and whatnot. This program is a sham. If they actually provided tech support I would understand.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Bryansix]

You sure do have an expensive appetite. You do know the poverty level is now pegged at below $22k a year right? $15 an hour would yield approx. $35-37k a year depending on the amount of hours worked.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Shot below the belt there, man.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Locutus]

speaking of monopoly, is this something a convicted monopolist can do to push their OS? Paying vendors millions to put "Windows Ready" stickers or similar junk on boxes, keyboards, literature etc is bad enough but now they are paying salaries of people at the stores to push their operating system over the competitions?

And how much is the store getting because I'll volunteer 8-16 hours a week at the local retail store to explain open source and even hand out CDs for free but I'm not going to pay the store to let me do that.

Something just does not smell right about this plan IMO.

LoB

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If I really wanted a guru to be involved in my computing experience, I'd still be using my Amiga. At least that guru would honestly tell you about problems occuring with the OS.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Jaunty Jackass

captcha: invalids

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[Sentry21]

Sounds like management.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[badkarmadayaccount]

Hardy Heroin User

Fixed.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[stewbacca]

I think this is a wonderful way at raising employee moral.

Morale? Teenagers with no skills, working part-time for minimum wage are probably just happy to have a job that doesn't deal with happy meals. I was young and dumb once and would have LOVED to have been on the Geek Squad.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[RobertM1968]

Hmmm... except that if you actually go into a Best Buy, you would notice that many of the Geek Squad members and sales force are not "young and dumb" teenagers working for minimum wage.

Sometimes its a matter of getting a job wherever one can...

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[TheQuantumShift]

Regulators of the Reinstall and their Powerpoint Posse?

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[stewbacca]

I guess in Austin, with all our tech companies, the Best Buy jobs are all filled with teens because their the only ones left. Maybe other Best Buys are different, but San Antonio, Portand OR, and Boise aren't any better. I tried (unsuccessfully) to have questions answered about PlayStation3, Klipsch surround speakers, and the HDMI configuration on a Yamaha AV receiver. Not a single employee could answer my questions (not even geek squad) and all of them just tried to bullshit me instead.

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[bestinshow]

I actually feel as if I made a difference to somebody's life now :D

Re:Guru? Not really ...

[bestinshow]

Maybe these Windows Gurus will wear red and blink a lot.

No Return Beyond Customer Satisfaction???

[NeverVotedBush]

So existing customer satisfaction isn't important to Microsoft? Who would have ever thought that?

Well, knock me over with a feather! ;-)

Re:No Return Beyond Customer Satisfaction???

[diersing]

Clearly, they have adopted the cell phone industry model. Next, they'll plant gurus in the parking lots of Apple stores to win the "converted customer" market.

Now THAT is delicious, thank you Jerry Seinfeld, Windows Guru #000000001

Re:No Return Beyond Customer Satisfaction???

[jmpeax]

Actually the person who said that had nothing to do with Microsoft - the summary is misleading. From TFA:

Van Baker, an analyst at Gartner Inc.

Re:No Return Beyond Customer Satisfaction???

[Machtyn]

Customer satisfaction is Microsoft's guarantee. But, just who is their customer? (Hint: It's not the one's who purchase the software.)

Re:No Return Beyond Customer Satisfaction???

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, knock me over with a feather! ;-)

Surely, you mean with a chair?

Cue the villagers

[$RANDOMLUSER]

...Windows Gurus could end up 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

More like villagers with torches and pitchforks.

Re:Cue the villagers

[CaptainPatent]

...Windows Gurus could end up 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

More like villagers with torches and pitchforks.

My father's name is Zeus you insensitive clod!

Re:Cue the villagers

[dzfoo]

My father's name is Frankenstein you insensitive clod!

There, fixed it for you.

      -dZ.

Re:Cue the villagers

[Bryansix]

That's a trident. It's different.

Re:Cue the villagers

[oiron]

That's Poseidon. He's different.

Re:Cue the villagers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I would hope they get hazard pay on top of that $20/hr.

'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[darth_MALL]

So does the $20/hr include danger pay?

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[BasilBrush]

Do people actually get out of bed for $20 an hour? $20 an hour, and a target painted on your back as a Microsoft rep who's supposed know everything about Windows, but won't help you out with your crappy windows computer that you bought last month.

Worst job ever.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Lord_Frederick]

$20 an hour isn't bad pay for someone going to college full time.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[CaptainPatent]

So does the $20/hr include danger pay?

Danger pay is covered, but they don't reimburse you for the cost of your soul unfortunately.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[devman]

Needs more hyperbole, I don't think you supplied nearly enough, would go well with a hint more elitism too.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Hyppy]

Do people actually get out of bed for $20 an hour?

The median household income per resident in the U.S. is $26,036, which works out about $12.50 per hour per person for a 40 hour week.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[SatanicPuppy]

41,000 a year for a job with a low entry skill is "not bad"? Are you serious? It's 5k above the national average wage.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[truthsearch]

Soul? Come on, CaptainPatent, there is no such thing as a soul. It's just something they made up to scare kids, like the boogeyman or Michael Jackson.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[BasilBrush]

"Guru" is low entry skill?

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[BasilBrush]

That sucks.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Anonymous Coward]

And that includes lots of people who don't work. Try looking for average wages instead of 'household income per resident' - If only one person works then you're making below this median between the two people living there...

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[fotbr]

"Salesman" is. Look at a used car lot. Apply the same ideas to windows pc sales.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Hyppy]

From the Wikipedia article (parenthetical figures mine):

The real median earnings of men who worked full time, year-round climbed between 2006 and 2007, from $43,460 (20.89/hr) to $45,113 (21.69/hr). For women, the corresponding increase was from $33,437 (16.08/hr) to $35,102 (16.88/hr).

Keep in mind that these are the median earnings. By definition, half of the population makes less.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[The Dancing Panda]

Wow. Where do you live that 20 dollars an hour isn't good money? I don't make too much more than that, and I'm a full time engineer with a degree.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[RobertM1968]

"Guru" is low entry skill?

Depends on the definition of "Guru" being used, as someone else clarified earlier.

A "Guru" in this sense, is simply someone who can tell you... I mean lie... I mean tell you... how much greater Vista is than everything else...

If you can stand in front of a display PC and say "Look! Shiny..." and that is all you pretty much have to do, then $20/hr is pretty nice indeed. ;-)

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[fredmosby]

That includes people that aren't working. According to that wikipedia page the median income for men that are working is $45,000 per year ($35,000 for women).

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[jopsen]

Is it a good pay?

I worked at a local factory this summer with no educational requirements what so ever and I got 25$ per hour.
I personally wouldn't consider 20$ a news worthy wage...

Note: I live in Denmark... so it was about 25$ per hour, + between 5$ and 10$ extra if you worked evening shift (in the late hours)...

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[supernova_hq]

Yes, a "Windows Guru" is a low entry skill, the same was a "Slug Racing Guru" is a low entry skill!

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Machtyn]

guru, in this case, = marketeer, or slightly above-average sales-person. Those of you living in NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, or the west coast really should check out middle America sometime. Cost of living is excellent. $20/hour is excellent. Most people do fine at $12-$17/hr where I live. (Especially if they gave up their tobacco and alcohol habits.)

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[nabsltd]

Unfortunately, Michael Jackson is all too real.

My mommy always said there were no monsters—no real ones—but there are.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[sumdumass]

In high dollar places like NYC or Chicogo, you can expect a lot of that to be taken in absorbent taxes associated with and on everything you buy. And when what I would call a cracker box of an apartment in my neck of the woods goes for over $700 a month in NYC, you can easily see where it wouldn't be enough.

Think about this. $8,400 a year for rent in a one room squallier, the subway if about $2.00 a ride as well as the bus, so if you have to take a subway and then catch a bus (because owning a car in NYC is expensive too with parking and all) your looking at spending around $8 a day, so 8 time 5 times 50 weeks is about $2,00 bringing living and working up to around $10,400 just to be in the city. Now this isn't even considering your electric bills, any travel outside of work or groceries or anything. And god forbid is you have to take a taxi, the last time I was in NYC, it costs me something like $45 to go halfway across town. Now part of that is the tolls I had to pay. Good thing I didn't have to go back that night or it would have bee $90 in one day.

Here is a report (PDF warning) from the NYC housing authority. In it, it contains the lines

Every year the National Low Income Housing Coalition (NLIHC) issues a study to determine
whether rents are affordable to the lowest wage earners. The 2007 study has not been released at the time of publication, but using the NLICHC's methodology,18 in order to afford a two-bedroom
apartment at the City's Fair Market Rent ($1,318 a month19), as determined by the U.S. department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), a full-time worker must earn $25.35 per hour, or $52,720 a year.

Alternately, those who earn minimum wage would have to work the equivalent of 142 hours a week (or two people residing together would each have to work 71 hours a week) to be able to afford a twobedroom unit priced at Fair Market Rent.

I could say that this is the costs of liberalism but I think we can all conclude that it has more to do with greed and population demand. The 52Gs a year supposedly includes normals costs like food, clothing, transportation and so on. Quite a surprise if you ask me who is from a smaller town in which the same apartment can be had for much less. I rent my 4 bedroom house out with .6 acres of fenced yard for $850 a month and I rent a 2 bedroom with about .75 acres bordering my land from a neighbor for $600 a month (because I live alone and it is easier to keep up). Both of us have twice the house, peace, and tranquility then the NYC apartment and we pay a faction of their costs.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[SatanicPuppy]

Working on the floor in a box store is low skill, regardless of what you do. If you had real skillz, they'd have you in a back room where you wouldn't have to answer questions about camcorders.

Though the last time I was there with my wife, looking at camcorders (my copious geek research having been rejected on the principle that a 7.00 an hour employee must somehow know more than me about cameras), we had no less than 4 salespeople wander by, listen to a question, and then go off in search of someone who knew what they were talking about.

Judging by the direction they took upon leaving us, that person resided anywhere in the store except where we were. Box store "experts" are in real danger of being replaced by the product reviews on the average e-commerce site.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[smoker2]

They are only contracted for 1 hour a day, or the $20/hour is on target earnings.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[moosesocks]

$20 an hour isn't bad pay for someone going to college full time.

Actually, I think most college students would kill for wages like that.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[martinw89]

Hell yeah, I started at $7/hr at a bottom of the barrel tech support job. With some really hard work, I got it up to $9 after a while. And this was for a max of 20 hours per week! Sheesh, I don't get these people scoffing $20/hr for a salesman position.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[quacking duck]

"Salesman" is. Look at a used car lot. Apply the same ideas to windows pc sales.

No need to imagine what that's like... Ballmer did this with Windows v1.0:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6YgZc5th6g

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Anonymous Coward]

The change from the subway to bus is counted as a 'transfer' and is free.

I take the subway every day.

Your point stands tho, 100K a year in NYC is pretty much entry level if you live here.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, wealth is so concentrated in this country, once you take out the top few percent even that number drops drastically.

Re:'lightning rods' for customer frustrations

[stewbacca]

Congrats. Now take out the 6% of people who are unemployed and the millions of other people who choose not to work, and your median income per resident increases greatly. In other words, $26,000 is not the average wage for all people who work--just all people.

riiiiight...

[Anonymous Coward]

i think $20 an hour for a "windows guru" to walk around a retail store and "convince the skeptics" sounds appropriate for Vista's legacy.

Re:riiiiight...

[indifferent children]

For $20/hr they could just set-out a couple of boxes of free pizza every hour with the Vista logo emblazoned on the box.

Re:riiiiight...

[orclevegam]

For $20/hr they could just set-out a couple of boxes of free pizza every hour with the Vista logo emblazoned on the box.

... That's actually a really good idea, at least better than the recent ads and this new "Guru" idea. Good thing you don't work for Microsoft, or they might actually be managing to hold on to more of their customers.

Re:riiiiight...

[supernova_hq]

Yeah, until the bestbuy guys try to figure out why all the keyboards and mice have a 1/16" coating of grease on them...

Re:riiiiight...

[orclevegam]

Yeah, until the bestbuy guys try to figure out why all the keyboards and mice have a 1/16" coating of grease on them...

This is a new problem? Hell, half of the keyboards in the store by me are missing keys, and the other half are so grimy it's hard to read the labels. Now, a layer of grease on the actual merchandise boxes, that would be something new.

Sales Experience

[D Ninja]

I've had some sales experience and, yes, these gurus will most definitely be lightning rods for customer frustration...any customer frustration. It doesn't necessarily have to do with Windows Vista.

I had a guy tell me I was an f'ing idiot because I tried to sell him a warranty (AKA do my job) because his printer just broke (after 5 months, which our warranty would have covered). I wasn't pushy, but, man...that was just rude. I certainly didn't cause his $500 printer to crap out. It was nice when our manager kicked him out of the store and told the guy never to talk to his employees that way.

Some people just like treating other people like crap.

Re:Sales Experience

[91degrees]

So someone bought a piece of equipment, and expected it to last more than 5 months. You tell him that if he wants a printer to have such an epic lifetime he needs to stump up some extra cash, and use the weaselly "just doing my job" defence to avoid taking responsibility for your own actions.

I can see why he was upset.

Re:Sales Experience

[bestinshow]

I'd be livid if something I bought for $500 broke after only 5 months use, and if I then found out that because I was living in a country with barely any consumer rights I had no way to get this sorted out in a fair manner. I'd rip someone's guts out if they were in any way associated with that purchase.

You have a reasonable expectation at purchase that the goods will last a certain minimum amount of time. One year should be a legal minimum for home electronics purchases. Full stop. It would stop some companies releasing utter crap onto the market as well, and thus the situation would improve for everyone.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

I don't understand your story. Why would you have to buy a warranty to cover a failure 5 months after purchase? Wouldn't the original manufacturer's warranty cover it?

Re:Sales Experience

[SatanicPuppy]

Not the sales reps fault. Anyway, what kind of moron buys a piece of equipment that doesn't have at least a 6 month manufacturers warranty? That's the first thing I check; if the manufacturer doesn't offer a warranty, then their product is probably crap.

Retail shops try to screw you with that stuff. I've had them try and sell me warranties on RAM that comes with a lifetime manufacturers warranty, and hard drives that come with a 3 year manufacturers warranty, but they pitch a less comprehensive warranty for a decent fee.

Re:Sales Experience

[GreenEggsAndSpam]

People need to remember that you CAN be pissed off at a poorly performing / defective / overly expensive / ugly products. It's perfectly OK to be angry.

What is NOT acceptable, under any conditions, is to take it out on the person who sold it (unless of course they were responsible for the construction / repair / destruction / damage / defilement / or it being vista). Gas is an ass-rape, but it's NOT the fault of the pump-jockey earning minimum wage.

The printer broke, it's not this guy's fault. He tried to sell the store's standard extended warranty, which would have saved aggravation (bad timing on the breakage), and unless this guy pointed it out in an asinine way ("If you bought the warranty like I told you to, you'd be fine, but you're cheap and screwed now, ain't ya?" type response), it was simply not his fault.

BTW: I don't work retail. I just sympathize with people getting blamed for things well beyond their control. I don't sympathize with them being dumber than dirt or the crappy attitudes many have.

Re:Sales Experience

[MyLongNickName]

I love it when they try to sell you a service warranty on something that costs $30.

Re:Sales Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an f'ing idiot. You should have told him to deal with the manufacture directly. He would have gotten a replacement printer and saved a lot of money. Instead you tried to sell him a warranty.

Re:Sales Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, you tried to sell him a warranty AFTER the printer broke? How is that supposed to work?

Re:Sales Experience

[bjkinney]

Chances are the consumer didn't bother checking to see if it had a manufacturers warranty. Most people just assume that they are supposed to go back to the place that they bought the product to get it repaired/replaced.

Someone I knew bought a brand new laptop and a week later the power supply was dead. She kept telling me that she didn't buy the warranty and I kept telling her that all laptops come with a warranty but she'd probably have to send it in to the manufacturer as opposed to having it replaced at the store. Sure enough she went back to the store and bought the warranty they offered her and had it replaced the same day as opposed to actually going through the manufacturer.

Re:Sales Experience

[D Ninja]

I agree. I didn't say he shouldn't be pissed. I'm saying he shouldn't take the route he did by cursing up a storm. I was just trying to do my job and if he didn't want the plan, I could give two hoots. But, all he had to say was, "No thanks." Heck, he could even say, "No thanks, those things are worthless" and I would have shrugged my shoulders and taken his printer to the front of the store.

The "you must be an f'ing idiot" remark was what kind of pissed me off. No matter how upset someone gets, there are just some things that you don't say to people.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

If you're right, then the grandparent was dead wrong. When a customer comes into your store with a problem that could be fixed through the manufacturer's warranty, the correct answer is "call XYZ Corp and they'll fix it for you", not "spend some more money on our store's warranty".

Re:Sales Experience

[morgan_greywolf]

Retail shops try to screw you with that stuff. I've had them try and sell me warranties on RAM that comes with a lifetime manufacturers warranty, and hard drives that come with a 3 year manufacturers warranty, but they pitch a less comprehensive warranty for a decent fee.

Actually it sort of depends on what it is. Buy a pair of headphones from Radio Shack and the warranty they'll sell you pretty much gives you free replacements for 3 years. It's $20, but well worth for it those who tear through headphones like there's no tomorrow.

Also, I like Sprint's service plan for cellphones, which is like $7/month ($84/year) per phone. If your phone breaks, gets lost or stolen, even if if you drop it in the toilet, they'll give you a new (reconditioned) phone for the cost of the deductible, which is like $50. A very good deal for someone with a $300 or more cellphone who get a new one about once a year (most people).

Re:Sales Experience

[D Ninja]

I actually asked him that (I knew the printer came with a minimum 1-year warranty) and his response was this, "I don't have time to deal with that crap. I just want a new printer."

In all honesty, I think he just wanted to take the aggression out on someone.

Re:Sales Experience

[LandDolphin]

Yeah,

It is rather funny when they tell you, that for only $19.99 you can get a one year warranty on the merchandise you just purchased for $29.99.

Re:Sales Experience

[D Ninja]

No. I tried to sell him the warranty on the NEW printer that he was buying.

My mistake in the telling of the story.

Re:Sales Experience

[athdemo]

How is this modded insightful? I'd mod troll but instead I'll respond. In what way, shape, or form, is this OP's fault? Customer came in with a broken printer and no warranty. Lets look at OP's options: Sell him a new one, and encourage him to buy a warranty so that this does not happen again. That's it. There's nothing else he can do. He's a sales rep for a store that sold him a product. Obviously OP was not involved in manufacturing that item, and neither was his store. It's perfectly ok for a customer to be angry that their expensive printer crapped out in 5 months, but it's absolutely absurd and unwarranted for him to be angry at and abuse the rep. Are you by any chance the customer in question?

Re:Sales Experience

[krakelohm]

What gives the customer the right to be an ass to the sales representative because his printer broke? What happened to common decency?

Re:Sales Experience

[bjkinney]

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately most employees in those types of stores are trained to always try and sell the warranty. They aren't looking out for the customers they're just looking for more ways to make money off of them.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation.

(And I assume it should go without saying, but obviously my other post where I said you would have been dead wrong doing this is incorrect, since you did bring it up and he refused it.)

Re:Sales Experience

[RobertM1968]

True, but the sales rep is not at fault for a printer company making shitty products. And as upset as a customer may be, there becomes a point where it needs to stop or be redirected at those responsible for the shitty product (the printer manufacturer).... and if it doesn't, a good manager will redirect the person to the manufacturer as s/he is throwing the customer out of the store (I've done that, and would continue to... as a manager, I never subscribed to the "Customer is always right" nonsense when the customer is being abusive to my employees. I dont pay my employees to be abusive. The flip side is I did pay them to be truthful about the product (ie: "If you want something that will last for your business, don't get that _________")).

Being "always right" isn't carte blanche excuse for verbally abusing other human beings who are not responsible for the customer's problems.

Re:Sales Experience

[penguinbrat]

Not the sales reps fault.

I agree it's not the REPpresentatives fault, although I don't blame *anyone* getting upset at them, as in *reality* (regardless of ignorance on the part of the rep) the said rep is REPpresenting either the store that wants extra money to back the products they sell, or REPpresenting the manufacturer selling the said crappy products.

It wasn't all that long ago that most products were *NOT* made to crap out in a matter of months, intentionally or not.

If you can't deal with the heat of a product your representing as quality - when it turns out it's not, then why in the hell do it in the first place? Either take the responsibility of what your representing or make it damn clear your not... It's not rocket science guys, it's called taking responsibility for what your saying - unless of course you know in advance your lieing to everyone then it's a moot point all around.

Re:Sales Experience

[RobertM1968]

Not necessarily. We used to have customers come in for issues all the time that were not covered under manufacturer's warranty. Such as, (laptops being a case in point), "I cracked the screen"...

"Sorry, can't help you. It's not covered. Had you bought our extended warranty, 2 screen replacements would have been covered, but the manufacturer warranty does not cover it. Worse, currently you have NO manufacturer warranty (with about half the manufacturers) for anything else, until you pay to get the screen fixed."

That's another attribute that the customers choose to ignore when a sales rep is trying to sell them an extended warranty. Many manufacturers will not cover any warranty issue if a non-warranty physical issue is present until that issue is fixed (it's in their accidental/abuse/misuse clauses).

With printers, there are similar situations as the example I outline above for laptops.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

Well, if you follow the sibling thread, turns out he did tell the guy to contact the manufacturer, but he refused. So in this instance, it was a sensible thing to do.

But I agree, in general the whole business of selling warranties is kind of nuts. Store-bought extended warranties tend to be obscenely overpriced too.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

Are you seriously that much of an asshole to your customers?

"You are screwed. If you had bought our overpriced warranty then you would be saved, but you didn't, so now you lose! Ha ha!"

What a great way to lose a customer. The insanity where everybody tries to sell you stupid and overpriced extended warranties is already bad enough. But to literally taunt a customer with broken hardware because he failed to purchase the extended warranty is completely ridiculous. Do you really want these people to take their business elsewhere?

Re:Sales Experience

[supernova_hq]

Wait, they let her buy the warranty AFTER it broke?!?

Re:Sales Experience

[FrankieBaby1986]

Umm, I'd just like to point out the that guy behind the point-of-sale counter making minimum wage or less (commission) probably doesn't have much choice where he works, and definately cannot afford to say "this company's products are sketchy, i'd rather not eat than work here"

Re:Sales Experience

[FrankieBaby1986]

buying the in-store warranty often means getting a replacement = go to store, get new one today. This is apposed to: pay shipping to send the defective unit to manufacturer, wait three weeks to find out they won't cover it/get a re-manufactured one, etc. For certain items, this can be very worth it.

Re:Sales Experience

[Smauler]

I agree completely, and 1 year is the minimum expectation on consumer electronics in the UK IIRC. AFAIK, the 1 year limit is not set in stone, it is just one of these interpretations by the courts of a law in which 'reasonable' is used. If something like this happened to me here in the UK, I'd go back to the shop I bought it from and ask for a refund or replacement, which they have to give by law. If they don't, I'd go straight to small claims court, which costs hardly anything. Your contract is not with the hardware manufactorer, it is with the retail outlet you bought the item from, and it is their duty to replace something if it breaks within the proscribed time limits.

Re:Sales Experience

[91degrees]

He gets to be an ass when the sales guy doesn't offer to fix it and instead tries to use it as a marketing opportunity.

Re:Sales Experience

[bjkinney]

Yea, I don't know exactly how these warranty programs work but she bought their warranty and they gave her a replacement the same day.

Re:Sales Experience

[91degrees]

The store sold him a faulty product! Seriouly - anything so flimsy that it only lasts 5 months clearly had something wrong with it when it was made. I'd expect a representative for the store that sold it to fix this problem. Then it's up to them to take it up with the manufacturer.

Re:Sales Experience

[RobertM1968]

Are you seriously that much of an asshole to your customers?

"You are screwed. If you had bought our overpriced warranty then you would be saved, but you didn't, so now you lose! Ha ha!"

What a great way to lose a customer. The insanity where everybody tries to sell you stupid and overpriced extended warranties is already bad enough. But to literally taunt a customer with broken hardware because he failed to purchase the extended warranty is completely ridiculous. Do you really want these people to take their business elsewhere?

What reality do you live in? The MANUFACTURERS make their warranties. The STORES have no say in that. The stores often offer supplemental warranties that cover deficiencies in the manufacturer's warranties since we cannot force a manufacturer to honor something that they clearly state they do not cover.

Keep in mind, all of this gets explained at the time of sale. The re-explanation doesnt come until the customer keeps bitching that we should cover something we or the manufacturer's warranty (or both) clearly told them was not covered at the time of sale.

So... am I the asshole? Or are you for (I hope) pretending to be too stupid to understand what I said?

"Do you really want these people to take their business elsewhere?"

For what? For them getting obnoxious? Or did you just decide to skip the posts I was responding to? Go take a valium, come back and re-read these threads.

Re:Sales Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a guy tell me I was an f'ing idiot because I tried to sell him a warranty (AKA do my job) because his printer just broke (after 5 months, which our warranty would have covered). I wasn't pushy, but, man...that was just rude. I certainly didn't cause his $500 printer to crap out.

I think I'm really missing some context here, I must be missing something. So, this guy's printer breaks. He shows up, and wants a new one (I assume), you guys tell him that he didn't have any warranty, so tough luck. For an insane reason, he buys another printer with a close to non-existent manufacturer's warranty. You ask him if he wants a warranty this time, and he says you are a fucking idiot.

Holy shit, you shouldn't be offended dude. I would have laughed my ass off. I never buy retail store warranties either, but I sure as hell don't buy shit without an appropriate-length manufacturer's warranty. And anything I'm paying $500 for better have a year's worth, or I'm not buying it.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

What are you talking about? You said that when someone comes to you with damage not covered by the manufacturer's warranty, you launch into this spiel:

"Had you bought our extended warranty, 2 screen replacements would have been covered, but the manufacturer warranty does not cover it. Worse, currently you have NO manufacturer warranty (with about half the manufacturers) for anything else, until you pay to get the screen fixed."

This, to me, is taunting. You're telling the customer that he would have been in great shape if he had purchased your extended warranty. But he didn't, so now he's screwed. Too bad for him! Maybe next time he should listen to the pushy annoying sales droid instead of ignoring him! Ha ha!

Seriously, pushing a hypothetical like this serves no purpose except to piss people off. If I came to you with a problem like this and you decided that this was the perfect opportunity to tell me how much I lost out by not buying your store's extended warranty, I would tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine and never come back.

Apparently you didn't grasp what I was talking about. You seem to think that I'm complaining about what the manufacturer's warranty covers. This is not the case. I'm complaining about the fact that you apparently think it's reasonable to use a customer's misfortune as an opportunity to tell him how stupid he was for not listening to your extended warranty spiel.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

Like what items?

I can't recall the last time I experienced what you described. I've had a few items require warranty attention over the years, from Apple, HP, APC, iRobot, and others. In all those cases, they simply shipped me a replacement, and then had me send them the broken unit in the same box.

I don't doubt that what you describe happens sometimes, but it seems fairly rare. Given the enormous expense of the extended warranties compared to a separate insurance policy (such as renter's insurance or similar) or simply eating the cost of the occasional out-of-warranty replacement, it doesn't seem worthwhile even if you do occasionally have to wait for a replacement.

Re:Sales Experience

[smidget2k4]

I agree, my hat is off to the people can work retail and maintain a good attitude. When I was doing retail, I became cynical and bitter quite fast do to the never ending foot parade of idiots blaming me for everything wrong in their life.

I honestly don't know how others can do it for longer than a few months.

Re:Sales Experience

[Nebu]

I'd be livid if something I bought for $500 broke after only 5 months use, and if I then found out that because I was living in a country with barely any consumer rights I had no way to get this sorted out in a fair manner. I'd rip someone's guts out if they were in any way associated with that purchase.

You have a reasonable expectation at purchase that the goods will last a certain minimum amount of time.

(Empaasis added)

Do you also feel that one should have reasonable expectations about what scenarios will lead to having one's guts ripped out?

A: I'd like to return this $500 device which broke after only 5 months use.
B: Did you purchase the extended warranty?
A: No.
B: Sorry, the basic warranty only lets you return the product within 30 days of purchase.
A: I am livid for having found out that I live in a country with barely any consumer rights.
B: Hey, I hear you man. I'm actually a member of several consumer's rights groups, and have written quite a few letters to my political representatives.
A: I am going to rip your guts out, since you are associated with the purchase.
B: What? Are you serious? Hey, man, look, I'm just a poor college kid. I only got $20 bucks on me; but if you let me call my parents, I can try to get $500 bucks. I'll pay you out of my own pocket if it'll mean you won't kill me.
A: Rip. Guts. Out. Anyone associated.
B: Aaaaiiieeeee!

Re:Sales Experience

[RobertM1968]

No apparently you simply didn't understand the context I was applying, which was to the whole thread. Which I guess explains it. No, we don't taunt them. The situation varies depending on the customer. It usually boils down to a "We can't help you without charging you. We can fix it for less than the manufacturer will rape you for. We can get you prices for both." (again, and to clarify, a summary of how the conversation will go... the actual wording isn't so extreme). Then we get the manufacturer's price, our price, as well as replacement price and offer it to the customer.

In the event the customer bitches still, well then, on occassion, things may go the route above or a similar route. The wording though is usually a lot more subdued. "I'm sorry, I cant help you. We advised you that this type of damage would not be covered under the manufacturer warranty when you purchased the machine." (which implies the rest of my statement above without the need for saying it - unless the customer then asks "Well what about your warranty?" - at which time, in a less direct way, we explain they needed to purchase our warranty at the time of purchase - not after such damage - as was also explained to them at the time of purchase).

Hopefully that clarifies things.

Re:Sales Experience

[mattbee]

EU law mandates a minimum 2 year warranty on most goods sold to consumers. It seems insane to me that you could buy a new bit of electronics in the US and have no recourse after it dies after 5 months!

Re:Sales Experience

[ignoramus]

I just sympathize with people getting blamed for things well beyond their control.

I completely agree. My main problem is that as a consumer, end-user, whatever there is simply no way, ever, to deal directly with someone who actually does have control.

Products are created in such a distributed manner and we are so far removed from anyone with the power or the balls to take some personal responsibility that almost everyone can and will hide behind the "I don't have any control over that, I'm just doing my job" excuse.

Gladly, it seems there are some exceptions... I've yet to try the whole apple store genius thing but the idea that, even if we can't go ask the head honchos at apple to fix issue XYZ, they have arranged to make it not only doable but easy to get some help sounds great. I need to purchase a Mac for some dev work and this goes a long way towards making the pricetag easier to ingest.

Re:Sales Experience

[nine-times]

Yeah, I'm all for being polite and all that, but I wouldn't be happy if my printer broke after 5 months, and honestly I'm generally pissed when someone at one of those chain electronic stores tries to sell me a warranty.

The problem with those warranties is not so much, IMO, that they're overpriced or anything. My complaint is that nobody honors them. They're usually written in such a way that they exclude the store from fixing anything that's caused by accidental damage, and also say that any "manufacturing defects" will be covered by the manufacturer and not by their warranty. The problem is, pretty much every time something breaks, it can be categorized as either "accidental damage" or a "manufacturing defect", and so their warranty effectively covers *nothing*.

I've had a couple different stores do that to me, and even had employees lie to me about the terms of the warranty. I've talked to the manager of the store, and I've talked to customer service people in the corporate offices, and nobody made any efforts to help me in any way. At one of the stores (a CompUSA in Manhattan) the store manager even called me names and lied to me, even though I was being polite.

The most recent time it happened, I talked to a lawyer friend of mine who said, "Yup, that's a problem. You can try taking them to small claims court, and you might be able to get back the cost of the warranty." That's it. Not the cost of the product I bought or the cost of fixing it.

Warranties are a rip-off, pure and simple. These days, if a salesperson at an electronics store tries to sell me one (beyond simply asking, "are you interested in the warranty?") then I tell them, as politely as I possibly can, to go screw themselves.

Re:Sales Experience

[darrenkw]

After having worked retail for 7 years (approx) I would say that it's wrong of the customer to be an "ass". However, if the $500 printer actually broke after 5 months then it's the job of the sales rep to contact the manufacturer and try to get this dealt with.

Re:Sales Experience

[jimicus]

The store sold him a faulty product! Seriouly - anything so flimsy that it only lasts 5 months clearly had something wrong with it when it was made. I'd expect a representative for the store that sold it to fix this problem. Then it's up to them to take it up with the manufacturer.

In theory, the free market should fix this by making manufacturers who pull stunts like this (sell $500 printers that pack up after 5 months and refuse to replace them) go out of business.

However, when an entire industry is trying desperately to cut every corner they can by reducing warranties to the bare minimum and outsourcing manufacturing to the cheapest, nastiest companies that wouldn't know QA if they were run over by a lorry delivering printed copies of ISO 9001, it doesn't quite work.

(I have the luxury of being able to say "Sucks to be you!" because I live in Europe and everything has at least one year, and up to 6 years mandated in law. Though to be fair some manufacturers (*cough* HP *cough*) have got the "fail 3 weeks after the warranty expires" trick down to a fine art).

Re:Sales Experience

[Pontiac]

Why is it people expect a cheep Inkjet printer to last for years and years? Yes I'll agree that a device should last a minimum of a year..

Companies used to offer decent warranty but the consumers keep demanding lower and lower prices..Box stores demanded bulk discounts.. So they cut where they can.. put in cheep parts and hack the warranty period down to save $$.

I won't buy into the the extended warranty game.. Why pay extra to for free repairs on a piece of junk.. What's your plan when the extended warranty runs out and it breaks again? Buy another one?

Invest in quality people! Yes it'll cost more today but you'll save in the long run..

Otherwise buy cheep and buy often

Re:Sales Experience

[athdemo]

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but that is not really close to how the world works.

This is how this went down:
Step 1: Customer chooses to buy product from Best Buy (or whatever store this happened in), and chose not to buy the extended warranty, understanding that by choosing not to do so, the store is not obligated to service this product.
Step 2: Printer breaks (why, we don't know; it may not even be broken for all we know) and customer comes back and expects store to fix his printer, knowing full well that this is not going to happen because, as I said earlier, he chose to not buy the extended warranty. If it's only 5 months then the manufacturer warranty should still stand and that is his only recourse. It is the customer's fault.

Then, to top it off, the customer insults his sales rep, and from what OP's post entails, he didn't even have anything to do with the original sale! This customer deserves to be flat out banned from the store. He knew, or at the very least should have known, exactly what situation he was putting himself in by choosing not to buy a warranty, and yet he comes back and is unbelievably rude to an employee that he has never even met before.

I just can not fathom how you can defend this. It's absurd. I don't know if you live in some fantasy world where everything has perfect justice or something, and scarcity of resources is just not a problem so that any store can just replace $500 printers on a whim, but that's not the world I live in, or the rest of the planet.

Re:Sales Experience

[D Ninja]

You're implying that I sold it to him in the first place. The printer he bought wasn't even from our store.

And, yes, I agree. I would only advertise things that I thought were worth having and would discourage people from buying the crap. I wasn't always 100% right, but generally customers seemed happy with me.

Re:Sales Experience

[D Ninja]

Even better, his original printer wasn't bought at my store. He bought it at a different company's store altogether.

If one of my own products would break, I would honor it - that's absolutely fair. But, if you're buying from someone else and expect me to honor their merchandise (and then curse me out), forget it.

Re:Sales Experience

[Koiu Lpoi]

I'd rip someone's guts out

Also, if they are huge.. That would mean they would have huge guts.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

Probably one of those "wink wink nudge nudge say no more" situations, where the terms of the warranty say that it doesn't cover any existing problems, but neither the sales guy nor the customer are going to tell them that this problem was already there. Presumably in the case of more blatant abuse the warranty company would investigate and consequences would ensue.

Re:Sales Experience

[Weedlekin]

"even if if you drop it in the toilet, they'll give you a new (reconditioned) phone for the cost of the deductible, which is like $50. A very good deal for someone with a $300 or more cellphone"

Especially of you can avoid thinking about the possibility of being given a phone that was reconditioned because it was dropped down somebody else's toilet...

Re:Sales Experience

[Weedlekin]

"The problem is, pretty much every time something breaks, it can be categorized as either "accidental damage" or a "manufacturing defect", and so their warranty effectively covers *nothing*."

It does however give you the pleasure of knowing that by ending up paying more for something from a zero-service box shifter than the full-service ones charge, you have conclusively proved to the world that you aren't a stingy bastard who always goes for the cheapest option.

Re:Sales Experience

[91degrees]

Printer breaks (why, we don't know; it may not even be broken for all we know) and customer comes back and expects store to fix his printer, knowing full well that this is not going to happen because, as I said earlier, he chose to not buy the extended warranty. If it's only 5 months then the manufacturer warranty should still stand and that is his only recourse. It is the customer's fault.

Assuming it is actually is broken, it isn't the customer's fault. It's the shop's fault for selling him something faulty. The shop may not have known it was faulty but they are aware now, so should fix it. The customer didn't break it. If the manufacturer is to blame then it's up to the shop to deal with the manufacturer. Not the customer. If the problem is with one of the parts from the manufacturer's supplier, then it's up to the manufacturer to deal with their supplier, and so on up the chain. The shop represented a product they sold as reasonable quality (this should be implicit).

Then, to top it off, the customer insults his sales rep, and from what OP's post entails, he didn't even have anything to do with the original sale! This customer deserves to be flat out banned from the store. He knew, or at the very least should have known, exactly what situation he was putting himself in by choosing not to buy a warranty, and yet he comes back and is unbelievably rude to an employee that he has never even met before.

He was rude to the employee after the employee tried to make money from him rather than solve the problem. His printer is broken. Fix the problem! Once the problem is fixed, then you can try to sell him something. Do you really expect an expensive item to fail after 5 months?

I don't know if you live in some fantasy world where everything has perfect justice or something, and scarcity of resources is just not a problem so that any store can just replace $500 printers on a whim, but that's not the world I live in, or the rest of the planet.

They shift hundreds of these printers. Each one nests them a tidy profit. If a few of them are going to go wrong and they need to replace them then they should take that into account when setting the price. If too many of them go wrong, then perhaps they should consider whether to stock that item.

Although I will say I'm actually rather confused about the whole situation. The customer bought something from a shop, and took it back to a completely different shop when it broke. That doesn't really make sense.

Re:Sales Experience

[stewbacca]

Name one extended service warranty that is worth it, regardless of the cost of the product!

Re:Sales Experience

[stewbacca]

Gas is an ass-rape, but it's NOT the fault of the pump-jockey earning minimum wage.

Something tells me you live in OR or NJ.

Re:Sales Experience

[stewbacca]

Apple will sell you extended warranty after the original warranty has run out so why not?

Re:Sales Experience

[jp10558]

Hmm, I think it will vary by store quite a bit. I worked at a Best Buy, and while they weren't perfect, they did make a significant effort to honor the warranty. Now, just like manufacturer warrantys, they did not cover abuse to the product, including outside impact damage, like being dropped. They would, however, cover wearing out or various other defects. And where I worked, even if it was covered by the manufacturer, we would still take care of that behind the scenes for the customer.

Now, the biggest downside to the warranty was that it could often take a month of shipping for getting something fixed (waiting to ship, trundling ground across the country, waiting to get parts at the repair shop, trundling back to us, us processing and calling customer). This was majorly improved just before I left, going from major truck shipping once a week to daily UPS shipments. Customer wait time went from an average of a month to an average of a week for a repair.

The other thing that started up was offering insurance in the form of Accidental coverage warranties. So now for more money, you also got coverage on you dropping the item, or running over it with a car.

I think one of the things people always forgot was the difference between insurance and a warranty. No warranty I know of covers you running the item over with a car, but insurance might.

Re:Sales Experience

[jp10558]

You know, I hear about renters insurance, but can you point at some more info on that? What I found googling was $500 deductable... In this case, he'd not get anything from his insurance either... In fact, your home electronics that are over $500 are going to be somewhat limited... Maybe your laptop? Possibly your TV. Likely NOT your average printer or iPod etc... And the insurance isn't going to cover the first $500 either, whereas the extended warranty + accidental coverage will cover with no deductable.

I'd be interested in the "low cost" insurance option . . . if someone could point me in that direction.

Re:Sales Experience

[Free the Cowards]

An insurance company will be happy to give you any deductible you wish to have. Of course you will have to pay for it. I don't know how much it would cost to have a deductible that would be reasonable for small electronics, but from what I've heard from friends it can be reasonable.

Of course the first rule of insurance is that you should never insure something you can afford to pay for yourself. The insurance company is in the game to make money, so in the long term, on average, you'll be paying them more in premiums then you would pay in replacement and repair costs. The exact same goes for extended warranties, of course, which is why I never buy either one for any of my electronics, because I can always afford to replace them.

Re:Sales Experience

[bestinshow]

Good point. I'll remember to call over the manager to complain prior to the gut ripping action.

(I do also believe that consumers do have a little responsibility to do basic research beforehand, but in this case you would expect a $500 printer to last a few years if used sensibly, and in addition I'm sure that it would have been recommended by the store to him at the time of purchase)

Re:Sales Experience

[nine-times]

Just stumbled across this today: http://consumerist.com/5050054/ex+best-buy-employee-regrets-selling-warranties-now-that-hes-a-customer

Honestly, I've had various problems with warranties from Best Buy, Circuit City, and CompUSA. At first for me buying my own stuff, but then for helping other people try to get things covered under warranty.

If you're lucky, they'll just stall and delay and you'll eventually get something repaired. But pretty often, they'll lie to you about the coverage, and then, somehow or another, it ends with them flatly refusing to repair the item. I've once seen it end with the store refusing to repair the item, and then subsequently informing the customer that they would not be returning the broken item (apparently they lost it).

I've never seen or even heard of an actual case where anybody was happy with the coverage, but like I said, I've been lied to by these stores' employees first-hand.

Re:Sales Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! I like treating other people like crap, you insensitive clod!

Apply here?

[PotatoFarmer]

While the application link is a nice touch, for some reason I think Microsoft may be wary of anyone coming in with a slashdot referer.

Re:Apply here?

[nschubach]

You think they'd fire me if I wore a Linux shirt while "pitching how great Windows is"? /wink

Re:Apply here?

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, a microsoft page (a form no less!) that works with firefox on Linux! maybe I should apply.

Re:Apply here?

[FrankieBaby1986]

oh great, so now I have to worry about where my link came from AND what's on my facebook page to get hired? jeez!

Re:Apply here?

[Flyers2391]

network.http.sendRefererHeader;0

;)

Re:Apply here?

[Anonymous Coward]

While the application link is a nice touch, for some reason I think Microsoft may be wary of anyone coming in with a slashdot referer.

Why whould they be wary?

These days, there are lots of Microsoft supporters / apologists / fans / shills / astroturfers / whatever on Slashdot. And they're getting more numerous by the day too, it seems.

No, I'm not one of them.

Vista Sala

[Rie Beam]

Given the commercials, I think it would be more appropriate for them to wander around Foot Locker...

Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[filesiteguy]

I'm not quite sure I understand the tactic here. Best Buy and Circuit City - last I remember - don't sell Macintosh PCs or Linux/UNIX PCs. Therefore, the person would be in the store to shop for PC's loaded with Windows.

Can I apply?? /me raises hand

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[cowscows]

Best Buy has sold Macs for quite some time. The new-ish BB store not far from me has a small but reasonably nice Apple section.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[ronoholiv]

Best Buy does sell Apple desktops and laptops; granted, not in every store, but they certainly have them in the DC area.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Piranhaa]

Not sure about Circuit City, but Best Buy has for a while now. link here: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050006&type=category . Both Future Shop and Best Buy do sell Mac computers. In-store stock isn't always the biggest (that I remember), but they do sell and have for almost 2 years IIRC...

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[thedak]

At least here in Canada they actually sell both; they have a whole apple section, and they sell the subnotebooks with *nix, possibly desktops with *nix.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[smitty97]

Best Buy has had Macs for some time now. They even got the iPhone just last week.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Lumpy]

No they would be blindly looking for a Pee cee.. they dont know there are options and therefore are simply cattle being guided into the gates that lead to the rotating knives...

90% of people buying a computer at best buy barely know what a computer is let alone they have differnet flavors and operating systems.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[cleatsupkeep]

Best Buy now sells Apples, and will be getting the iPhone 3G soon.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[oahazmatt]

The store by me has a nice Apple section as well.

That being said, I go to the Apple Store that's a little further out of the way on some occasions. I usually get greeted and asked if I'm looking for anything specific. I'll say I'm just looking around, and they smile politely and let me browse.

Now, the "Genius" they have in the Best Buy Apple Section is more in line of the Windows Guru seems to be, a salesman. I walked into that section and she was absolutely relentless. She asked if I could help, I said I'm just looking. She asked what I was looking for, and I said I was just browsing various things I might need in the future. She asked what I do with the computer, and I told her I do some graphics and web design, and I was just checking out some NAS options. Then she starts pitching .Mac at me. I told her I didn't need .Mac for my projects, and I kept looking at the external drives and the Time Capsules. Then she started throwing iLife in my face. I told her that wasn't going to do what I need to do. I said I work with a lot of SQL DBs and write everything in PHP. She actually said "But you won't need to do that anymore with iLife". I asked her if she had been listening to a word I had said, or if she was just picking up keywords and throwing back responses she thought fit best.

Now I always go to the Apple Store when I need to buy things for my Mac. If the Windows Gurus will be anything like the Best Buy Mac Fanatics, they won't last long.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[CthulhuDreamer]

Which will be interesting when the Vista Vultures try to steer Macintosh customers over to the Vista systems. The stores may have product disparagement issues if their employees aren't careful when favoring certain vendors over others (especially if their salaries are being paid for by outside vendors).

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I was at the Best Buy near my house (about 6 months ago), they had sort of a mini-Apple Store inside.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[morgan_greywolf]

I'm not quite sure I understand the tactic here. Best Buy and Circuit City - last I remember - don't sell Macintosh PCs or Linux/UNIX PCs. Therefore, the person would be in the store to shop for PC's loaded with Windows.

They're not extolling the virtues of Windows, they're extolling the virtues of Windows Vista. Many people are convinced that Vista sucks and want to stick with XP. Microsoft doesn't want that to happen.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[j_kenpo]

Not sure about CC, but BB has been selling Macs for at least a few months. I have two withing 10 miles of me that have Apple sections.

Best Buy's MacBook Link

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[LandDolphin]

Which is why a Windows PC is probably better for them. Because, once they purchase their computer, they are going to expect that they are going to be able to purchase any Software/Hardware they see advertised. As most of that Software/Hardware is for Windows, I'd argue they would be better off with Windows.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Circuit City sells the Acer Aspire One with Linpus Linux Lite. Don't know if they sell any other linux machines.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[The Dancing Panda]

I said I work with a lot of SQL DBs and write everything in PHP. She actually said "But you won't need to do that anymore with iLife".

I think I should tell my employers this. Its nice to know that SQL databases are unnecessary thanks to iLife. Though you may be able to replace PHP with iLife. It's replacing something useful but hideous with something inane but pretty. Basically the American dream.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[RobertM1968]

Besides the stores that sell Apple computers, keep in mind, this is also to push customers towards Vista as opposed to XP.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Jodka]

" I asked her if she had been listening to a word I had said, or if she was just picking up keywords and throwing back responses she thought fit best."

Was her name Eliza?

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[cowscows]

Yeah, Apple Stores are certainly nicer. There's supposedly going to be one opening up around here soon. But until then, BestBuy is about the best I can do.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[NiteShaed]

Some maybe, but it seems that most of the people I talk to really want internet access, and maybe something like Office for the most part. Next comes music and the ability to play movies. Windows, OSX and Linux all offer these (assuming you don't mind substituting Open Office for Office on Linux). The other theme I run into over and over again is Windows boxes crapped up with spyware/viruses or just weirdly botched up, which I don't see very often with the OSX and Linux machines.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Taxman415a]

Speaking to the GP, yeah this is kind of the point of what MS is doing here. Best buy is carrying Apple machines because people want them. They are selling very well, particularly the laptops which carry a higher margin than most Windows laptops and certainly PCs. So now MS realizes they need to hire an army of their own more highly trained sales people to steer people away from buying Apple. This is because they are realizing that if given the choice, more and more people are choosing something other than Windows and they need to do something about it.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[oahazmatt]

Actually, that would be an interesting social experiment. Talk to the Windows Guru, mention you're going to go look at the Macs, and see if they respond negatively to the idea. If they do, mention that Macs can run Windows, and the idea of Windows hasn't been ruled out completely, you just may want both worlds. If the Guru's head hasn't exploded at this point, ask them if they're more interested in selling Vista or if they want you to buy any hardware other than a Mac.

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[svank]

[Cluelessness of Best Buy's Genius]

Did you perhaps have a coil of a rare metal from outer space on your person that was somehow interfering with the reality distortion field?

Re:Um, Since When Did BB/CC sell non-windows?

[Mike1024]

I walked into that section and she was absolutely relentless. [...] She asked what I do with the computer, and I told her I do some graphics and web design, and I was just checking out some NAS options. Then she starts pitching .Mac at me.

See, whenever someone asks me that question I tell that I use my computer in life support systems, for controlling airliners, and in the design, manufacture and production of rockets and missiles. The software license agreement allows me to do that, right?

One way Windows Gurus will differ

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides being straight?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Guru meditation

[Spatial]

That's cool, but do they meditate?

Re:Guru meditation

[sl0ppy]

yes, but for some reason, it always results in an error.

Re:Guru meditation

[Maestro485]

They'd like to, but they're still waiting for someone to Cancel or Allow.

Re:Guru meditation

[seanonymous]

Of course, why do you think Best Buy is stocking the Wii Fit?

Re:Guru meditation

[Anonymous Coward]

You misspelled "medicate".

Re:Guru meditation

[Anonymous Coward]

Amiga reference? Hope so :)

Re:Guru meditation

[Zwicky]

That's because like children who can't get rid of a bad habit, they can't help but hold their breath during meditation. This makes them go blue and they approach death pretty quickly. The only way to bring them back up is to reboot them with your size nines. It's not pretty.

Re:Guru meditation

[Anonymous Coward]

Filthy pervert.

They'll be easy to spot

[Anonymous Coward]

"Baker said. One reason: Windows Gurus could end up 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

That explains the uniform, a helmet and athletic cup.

Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[psyque]

How could selling Vista machines possibly improve customer satisfaction?

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[NeverVotedBush]

Free cake?

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[SJ2000]

The cake is a lie

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[Kemanorel]

In Soviet Russia, the lie is a cake.

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[Machtyn]

In Soviet Russia, the lie is a cake.

That actually makes some sense...

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[decep]

> Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

As long as it is written in Perl.

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[cp.tar]

So they gladly eat up the lies?

Well, that explains a lot...

Re:Vista = Customer Satisfaction?

[st33med]

You do realize that the cake is a lie? I mean really. You have to jump through Portals and Warranties to get to it...

Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experience?

[greenguy]

I think I speak for us all when I say...

No.

Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Foofoobar]

I use Apple and Linux at Home and Windows and Linux at work and I have to say that Apple (like Pixar) does a great job on polishing under the drawers; they don't do anything halfassed in the total experience. They control the product, the store and the whole experience for a reason... to make them look extremely polished and extremely in control.

Until Microsoft opens their own shops and controls their own hardware OEM, they can't quite duplicate the same experience that Apple has at their stores. They only thing they can do is create propoganda in a controlled environment. And Apple already has retail people and retail sections in Bestbuy locations so these MS people are going to have to compete on their turf; Apple people don't compete with anyone in their stores.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[pandrijeczko]

They control the product, the store and the whole experience for a reason... to make them look extremely polished and extremely in control.

Well, if I ever had a reason to try out an Apple product, you've just destroyed it in that one sentence. What about if I want to use a computer but don't *want* to be controlled?

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[SatanicPuppy]

Well, and Best Buy is well known for pushing hardware and peripherals over actual support...No matter what you ask them, you always need a new one.

I went in there once trying to get a "real" modem (not a winmodem) and I got told first, that there was no difference between a real modem and a winmodem (lie), and second, that I should just get a new computer because modems were old tech.

Never actually asked any meaningful questions, obviously, because a new computer wasn't going to get my fax server running any faster, but a new modem replace the dead one would have been peachy.

Ask for a KVM switch, they'll try and sell you a monitor, and never, ever, buy a usb cable from them.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Foofoobar]

What about if I want to use a computer but don't *want* to be controlled?

One word... Linux. :)

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[orclevegam]

They control the product, the store and the whole experience for a reason... to make them look extremely polished and extremely in control.

Well, if I ever had a reason to try out an Apple product, you've just destroyed it in that one sentence. What about if I want to use a computer but don't *want* to be controlled?

Install Linux, otherwise you've got no options.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you don't want an Apple. There - different tools for different jobs.

You don't take a Chevy Astro to pick up chicks, and you don't drop off your 5 kids with your two-door coup.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Tracking Device]

We don't need any more pushy sales people trying to sucker us in to buying something we don't need. I can see controversy coming between competition.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Just Some Guy]

Until Microsoft opens their own shops and controls their own hardware OEM, they can't quite duplicate the same experience that Apple has at their stores.

If Microsoft opened their own shops, I'm 99% sure they'd look and feel exactly like Best Buy already does.

Walking into an Apple store is like visiting a BMW dealership: everything is wood and polished aluminum and sparkly. Walking into a Microsoft store would be like visiting a Kia dealer: it might look and smell like greasy plastic, but hey! It's cheaper!

Then again, I'm partial to FreeBSD. Their store would be staffed with guys in jeans, flannel shirts buttoned all the way up, and hiking shoes, and might smell like wood smoke or patchouli. Actually, I think I just described my office. Minus the patchouli. Eww.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Anonymous Coward]

What about if I want to use a computer but don't *want* to be controlled?

The discussion in this thread at hand is about Apple. Specifically. If you subscribe to the knee-jerk "don't control me, man!" dogma and feel Apple is "controlling" you, don't buy Apple. That's nice. But wholly off-topic here.

What do you do in your spare time, walk into a Volkswagen dealership and butt into conversations between the customers and dealers with "But what if I don't want a car? Maybe I wanted a refrigerator! What're you gonna do about THAT, smart guy?"

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Anonymous Coward]

>went in there once trying to get a "real" modem (not a winmodem) and I got told first, that there was no difference between a real modem and a winmodem (lie),

You have seriously unrealistic expectations of minimum wage salespeople. How about you do your own homework before going to the store? Is that too much to ask of the self-entitled crowd? Seems so.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[jellomizer]

I think when people go to Best Buy they expect the sales man to sell whatever will give them the most money. If they are pushing Vista when they hear contradictory information from other sources, they will just assume that Microsoft is paying them to sell vista. At the Apple store you know it is going to be slanted for apple products but you feel more comfortable that they will try to sell you a Mac Mini vs. a MacPro if they hear your requirements and see that you can do well with a Mac Mini or perhaps they may explain that an iMac if you don't have keyboard mice and display is a better value.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[pandrijeczko]

This is a general discussion web site - I wasn't aware that all postings were considered to be *whispered*.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[orclevegam]

>went in there once trying to get a "real" modem (not a winmodem) and I got told first, that there was no difference between a real modem and a winmodem (lie),

You have seriously unrealistic expectations of minimum wage salespeople. How about you do your own homework before going to the store? Is that too much to ask of the self-entitled crowd? Seems so.

Saying "I don't know" to a technical question is acceptable. Bullshitting and saying that it doesn't make a difference in the hopes of fobbing something off on someone and getting a bit of commission is not. When I've asked technical questions of various people at stores they usually tell me they don't know, or that they need to go ask "one of the technical guys" which is perfectly fine, it's the assholes that try to talk down to you and convince you that your a moron and they know exactly what they're talking about even when they have no clue that are the problem.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Anonymous Coward]

they don't do anything halfassed in the total experience

Bad leopard networking, iPod Touch + iPhone bluescreens vista, iTunes8 pwns AirTunes, Mobile Me Launch, iPhone 3G woes, ...

No, they certainly don't do anything half-assed.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[ceoyoyo]

The headline made me laugh out loud. I've been in a Best Buy. Best Buy + anything != Apple store experience.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, I think Best Buy + Windows Guru would cause quite a few people to go have an Apple store experience...

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Zadaz]

Microsoft did open their own stores back around 1999. And closed them a couple years later. Here in San Francisco it was in the Metreon, a block away from the current site of the Apple store.

I went there a bunch of times. Well I went through there a bunch of times because it was a shortcut between one end of the mall and the other, but it was interesting. Not at all like Best Buy.

It wasn't necessarily good, but they did try some new stuff. It had a boutique feel with an open layout, not shelves of mishandled merch. They had a small classroom with maybe 18 workstations where the would run training. (You could also rent it out for your own events.) They had a book section that was roughly equivalent to a good book store's 'computer' section, plus a lot of design books. Most of the store was accessories (mice, scanners, notebook locks, etc) and office stuff (travel alarms, pens, pen holders, etc.) They often had new technology out on display or demo. They had guys in blue polos who were friendly and helpful, and who never did a full-court press trying to move MS products.

They also had zero customers, even though the store was the only good way to get from one end of the second floor to the other. Why? I don't really know except it wasn't really compelling. Much like Microsoft's other products, it was just fine, but if I didn't need to go there I wouldn't. And why would anyone need to go there? They wouldn't. Everything they sold was available within five blocks of the place (usually at better prices). Although it was nice, it wasn't an 'experience' like an Apple store is. And MS is mostly software and mice. No one gets excited about that.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[SatanicPuppy]

I didn't have unrealistic expectations; I specifically laid out the difference between a winmodem and a modem at the beginning of the conversation. I didn't do the alpha geek thing and ask for a modem, then berate the poor schmuck when he led me to the winmodem section.

After I carefully explained what I was looking for, I got inexpertly bs'd and then told that I needed new hardware if I still cared about things like modems. It's hardly the only time it's happened to me; I don't care if they don't know, but they inevitably make things up when they have no clue.

On the aforementioned KVM switch incident, they told me (first) that there was no such thing, and I should buy a monitor, then (second) that if there was, as I was insisting, such a thing, they didn't have any in the store. They had 4 different kinds, as it happened, though they were all kinda crappy.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[nine-times]

It's not that *you* are controlled, but rather their product is controlled. Microsoft sells a license to Gateway for a copy of Windows, but they don't necessarily have a lot of control over what else is installed on the machine or what hardware it has. Apparently they have some control through licensing arrangements, but not much.

Whereas with Apple, they control the hardware and nothing comes pre-installed without Apple's consent. The poster is just noting that Apple controls the product that you get when you buy a computer and Microsoft doesn't. Once you have the computer, though, you can do anything you can do on a Dell, with the addition of running OSX legally.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[Anonymous Coward]

What about if I want to use a computer but don't *want* to be controlled?

Then you don't want a Mac. The whole point of the Apple experience is to make you think you only want to do what they let you do.

You "do" want to boot OSX off an external USB/FW drive, and Apple' will let you.

You "don't" want to boot Linux, Windows or anything else off an external USB/FW drive, so Apple prevents you from doing so.

"This isn't the boot drive you're looking for..."

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[ceoyoyo]

Excellent point. My last trip to Best Buy made me have an anything but Best Buy experience.

I had a $30 gift card for BB. I wanted to pick up this bit of hardware that they happened to sell. So I found a price on the web. BB was advertising it at a not horrible price, so I went to grab it. After watching the sales guy wiggle out of giving me the web advertised price I went across town and bought it at a non-chain place for literally half the price BB wanted. I think I still have the gift card.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[DannyO152]

Which raises a question. The lowest end Wintel systems are less expensive than the personal Macs. I think that suggests Macs are more profitable as measured in dollars. So if the WGs succeed in harassing, I mean, educating the customers looking at Macs and turn $1200 sales into $400 sales, is Best Buy really going to be happy they let the Gates's Gurus onto the floor? Do the robot if you disagree. The funky chicken means you're on my page.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[NotBornYesterday]

My experiences are similar to the GP's. If I go into a store and expect not to be bullshitted, that is not being "self-entitled", you condescending ass. If sales help at BB doesn't know what they are talking about, they should shut up and get out of my way. Better yet, they should impose on their manager to get you properly trained before they misinform more customers.

How many product returns and how much user frustration results from idiocy like this? Apparently the GP did do his homework, because he knew modems better than the glorified idiot salesdweeb. However, if the GP hadn't know the difference, he would have been sold a bag full of overpriced crap useless for the purpose he had.

What are the odds you're wearing a blue shirt right now and posting from a computer at BB ...

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[oblivionboy]

In which case there is Linux, which requires you (aside perhaps from Ubuntu) to learn an insane amount of stuff just to control a bit of it. And I say this being someone who's used all three, and built my own Linux distros up until around 2000 (Base + X + etc, etc). Like NeXT, OS X just lets you get down to work. And if you want to tweak just as much as Linux (with the exception of say drivers and kernel -- and even then there are ways around it as the osx86 community has shown) then its all there for you.

I suspect that half the time that Linux users get in such a tizzy about the Mac stuff, is that Mac did it better, Mac is successful, and Linux to some degree is still the lunatic fringe element in alot of the general public's mind. That I'd guess creates resentment in alot of people.

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[stewbacca]

I also don't pick up chicks based on what they think about the kind of car I drive...just sayin'

Re:Best Buy + Some Guy != Apple Store

[stewbacca]

Walking into an Apple store is like visiting a BMW dealership: everything is wood and polished aluminum and sparkly. Walking into a Microsoft store would be like visiting a Kia dealer: it might look and smell like greasy plastic, but hey! It's cheaper!

Finally a good car analogy on slashdot!

Astroturfing in stores.

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, so this is a combination of corporate astro-turfing, and Grima Wormtongue.

Big deal.

[DogDude]

Big deal. They're called manufacturer's sales reps. Tons of companies do it. Manufacturer's reps occasionally do the same with cat/dog food. Why this is considered a "story", I have no idea.

Re:Big deal.

[Billhead]

So, you mean I can go to PETCO and talk to a normal saleman, or I can talk to a "Purina Guru"?

Re:Big deal.

[DogDude]

I don't know. I've never been in a Petco. It happens in my store, though, sure. Just this morning there was a "HVAC guru" in Lowe's hardware selling his company's heat pumps. Again, this really isn't news, unless you've never been in a retail store other than Wal-Mart, before.

Re:Big deal.

[myz24]

Except that it is news because Vista is doing so poorly that they have to HIRE people and pay them well to convince people that Vista isn't nearly as bad as people tell them.

Sure hardware reps are getting out there but it is to make new sales, not to fix their reputation.

Re:Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experienc

[DogDude]

It would be true if PC prices were tripled, and the whole interior of the store was white.

Some Questions To Ask

[Rie Beam]

"I'm really interested in Vista, but I can't afford it. Are there any cheaper alternatives?"

"Hey, can I still use X feature of Vista if I downgrade to XP? Why not?"

"Quick question -- when is the next operating system after Vista coming out? I'm really excited about that one. No, I don't know anything about it yet..."

"How does Vista compare to non-Windows operating systems?" (Open ended, should provide some laughs)

"If Vista is so good, why are you being $20/hour to stand around and tell me how good it is?"

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[mgkimsal2]

Well, go ask the same questions of Apple employees in an Apple store. Replace 'vista' with 'leopard'. It would serve the same purpose.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Peter Simpson]

"My hard drive just died. How do I reinstall Windows?"

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Tubal-Cain]

"If Vista is so good, why are you being $20/hour to stand around and tell me how good it is?"

Well, that's certainly a new trick.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Tubal-Cain]

And I forgot the obligatory xkcd reference.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[jefu]

How do I get a refund if I refuse the Vista EULA on the computer and want to install something else?

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[orclevegam]

Well, go ask the same questions of Apple employees in an Apple store. Replace 'vista' with 'leopard'. It would serve the same purpose.

In my experience the guys at the Apple store would at least attempt to answer your questions honestly. I've had some really interesting discussions with some of them regarding the compatibility and differences between Linux and OS X, and they often try to convince people to buy whatever meets their needs best even if it's cheaper than what the customer was originally looking at.

My experience in Best Buy on the other hand is that if you seem to know what you're doing they'll more or less leave you alone, and attempt to answer your questions as best as possible, but if you ask for advice about which product to buy they'll try to steer you towards the most expensive option, preferably with as many addons and extras as possible. Of course, that's not always the case in either store, but it's the general rule.

Interestingly, the guys at Best Buy are generally more "technical" than their equivalents at the Apple store, but simultaneously less likely to give good advice concerning a purchase. The Apple guys don't know much about the technical side of anything outside a select few pieces of Apple hardware, but are well versed in the pluses and minuses of everything they sell, if not all the gritty details.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[supernova_hq]

HAHA, finally a guy being paid more than $5/hour will be forced to come up with an answer!!!

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Anonymous Coward]

Also:

"If I buy this computer with Vista, how can I get the money back when I replace it for Linux?"

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[jtosburn]

"If the expression 'It's so good that it sells itself' is true, are you then living proof that Vista is a steaming turd?"

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Nebu]

Actually, I don't think your questions are particularly difficult. Here are the answers I suspect a well trained Windows Guru would answer (note I am not saying that I agree with these answers; just that I can easily imagine a Guru giving such an answer without much difficulty).

"I'm really interested in Vista, but I can't afford it. Are there any cheaper alternatives?"

"If you're buying a new PC, Vista will be bundled with your new computer for free. If you've already got a computer, you can probably buy the upgrade license which is only around $99."

Generally this is a safe response because most people who are coming into Best Buy looking to upgrade their computer would be running Windows XP.

"Hey, can I still use X feature of Vista if I downgrade to XP? Why not?"

"No, feature X is only available in Vista, and Microsoft is going to discontinue XP soon anyway, so you should probably upgrade."

"Quick question -- when is the next operating system after Vista coming out? I'm really excited about that one. No, I don't know anything about it yet..."

"The next one after Vista? You mean Mojave?"

"How does Vista compare to non-Windows operating systems?" (Open ended, should provide some laughs)

"Well, it really depends. Most home users out there right now are using Windows, which means anytime you walk into a Best Buy and buy a computer product like a program or a game or something, it'll probably only run on Windows. There are other OSes out there, but they really tend to be geared for 'computer-people'. If you really know computers well, they can be great, but if you just want to use your computer with as little hassle as possible, your best bet is probably to stick with Windows Vista."

"If Vista is so good, why are you being $20/hour to stand around and tell me how good it is?"

"Vista has been getting a lot of negative PR -- unfairly, in my opinion -- and so a lot of people who don't even know what an operating system is already have this negative vibe associated with Vista because of an article they read somewhere. They actually did this experiment a while ago, they called it the 'Mojave' experiment. What they did is they took people who said they disliked Vista, even though they did not personally try it out for themselves, and then let them try this new OS called 'Mojave'. Everyone who tried it almost unilaterally loved this new OS. And then they revealed that 'Mojave' was actually Vista all along. So you see, Vista really has this undeserved reputation, and Microsoft is trying to fix this by hiring people like me."

How do I get a refund if I refuse the Vista EULA on the computer and want to install something else?

"Sorry, but I'm not a lawyer, so I'm really not qualified to answer that question. I mean, I can tell you what I've personally heard, which is that usually you have to contact the computer manufacturer (e.g. Dell, Gateway, or whoever), and they'll each have their own process for giving you the refund, but I really can't offer you any concrete legal advice."

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[slashdot.org]

"If Vista is so good, why are you being $20/hour to stand around and tell me how good it is?"

It's actually a really good question.

The answer is, in my opinion that Microsoft is currently making a classic marketing mistake. One which, from what I understand, I'm not an expert, rarely pays off.

It's the one where essentially the seller is in denial, and starts blaming the potential buyer for not understanding how fantastic their product is.

Apparently, to Microsoft it is inconceivable that people don't want Vista. And now they start blaming 'us', that we just don't understand.

I realized that when I saw this ridiculous website.

On top of that, they are dissing their own products! They literally say "PCs with Vista are 60% less likely to get infected than PCs with Windows XP SP2". Heh. How do I know you are not going to say the same thing when your next product comes out?

If all this stuff wasn't so arrogant, it would simply be pathetic.

they are telling their potential customers that they are ill-informed, don't have the ability to evaluate a product on their own terms and they can't make the decision about what they want themselves. This product can't be bad, the customers are just wrong!

I hope the customers will prove to be not gullible and understand that and reward them with what they deserve.

(this btw from someone that chooses to mainly work on Windows XP, not Linux or Mac)

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[nine-times]

How about, "I don't want a computer with Vista, I want one with that new Mojave thing I've been hearing about." And then no matter how clearly they explain it, pretend to be confused. When the fun runs out, say something about, "I don't know why Microsoft would lie to people like that!" and then walk away.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[samsonov]

My experience in Best Buy on the other hand is that if you seem to know what you're doing they'll more or less leave you alone, and attempt to answer your questions as best as possible, but if you ask for advice about which product to buy they'll try to steer you towards the most expensive option, preferably with as many addons and extras as possible. Of course, that's not always the case in either store, but it's the general rule.

I can attest to this. I went to get a laptop there just as they were phasing out XP and they had one laptop in their clearance section that had XP. I got the sales goon to come over and he immediately tried to steer me to a newer (and more costly) laptop. I sternly told him that I didn't want Vista, was going to put Linux on half of it and he left it at that.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm really interested in Leopard, but I can't afford it. Are there any cheaper alternatives?" Well, it comes for free with a new Mac. Of course you can always run any OS you want as well, including Linux and Windows.

"Hey, can I still use X feature of Leopard if I downgrade to Tiger? Why not?" Except for the new features in Leopard, sure. Although you probably won't notice much difference in performance or usability, so you might as well just use the newest thing.

"Quick question -- when is the next operating system after Leopard coming out? I'm really excited about that one. No, I don't know anything about it yet..." It's planned for sometime next summer. It's called Snow Leopard.

"How does Leopard compare to non-Mac operating systems?" Well, it's faster than Vista, has less spyware/adware than Windows in general (virtually none), and has more commercial applications available than Linux.

"If Vista is so good, why are you being $20/hour to stand around and tell me how good it is?" Actually I'm just paid to answer any questions a customer has and help them fix any problems they might have.

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[Rie Beam]

1. "So, Vista is free? How does Microsoft make any money?"
2. "Why do they need to upgrade? XP seems to be fine, I haven't really noticed any problems.."
3. "Yeah, that one! How is that one different from XP and Vista?"
4. "My daughter just went away to college, though, and she asked me to buy her a Mac. They seem a little different, but not something too ...hard. How different is Vista from XP?" (it's a trap!)
5. "So, everyone liked Mojave? But people hate Vista? Why don't they just call it Mojave then..."

You would make an amazing salesman, if you aren't already one, but it does boil down to that it's all a game of selective truths...

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[sootman]

I'd like to see someone go up with the slowest-possible laptop (some $349-on-sale POS with 512 MB) and ask for setup help and let them watch the famously-long first boot, then ask for help removing all the crapware. Bonus points if they bring a friend on the same day, standing next to them at the counter, with a just-purchased base MacBook and whipping through the setup in 3 minutes, then recording the rest of the proceedings with the iSight. :-)

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[doesnothingwell]

Did you also think Windows Me was a quality OS, and can you say it with a straight face?

I was once forced to attend a Microsoft system builders show, the emcee stated "now this makes up for Windows Me", the response was silence followed by "nothing will make up for ME".

Re:Some Questions To Ask

[DannyO152]

Where can I get this Mojave I've seen advertised?

Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[LWATCDR]

Windows Vista Guru = salesperson.
Good grief Vista must suck.
Their adds where people try Vista and say gee this doesn't suck.
Their ads with with Gates and Sienfeld.
Until now I thought that Vista was just too much pain for not enough gain. I thought that maybe Windows 7 would be better.
Now I get the feeling that Vista is the Yugo of OSs. It must really suck if they are having to push this hard.
I was going to put Vista 64 on my wife's new PC. Now I am going to rethink that one.

Re:Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[Zordak]

I was going to put Vista 64 on my wife's new PC.

You know, when you have a little spat with the Mrs., it's usually a bad idea to start with the juvenile pranks. Sure, you think this one can't be topped, but that's because she hasn't told you about the MS Bob install disk she has stashed for emergencies.

Re:Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[Stan Vassilev]

Windows Vista Guru = salesperson.
Good grief Vista must suck.

So I guess Apple Geniuses mean OSX sucks too.

The thing is, Microsoft has played low for many years now, thinking that not replying to the attacks by Linux/Apple is the winning strategy, but it's not.

Just like any defendant has right to a lawyer no matter how quilty you may think he is, Microsoft has stepped up to level the playing field by boosting their marketing to counter the claims by their competition.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of Linux/OSX/Windows, the three of which I use happily, and will continue to. But I think you all need to tone down the drama a bit.

Depending on how those Windows Gurus are trained, they can be in fact helpful for getting an informed opinion on your question, even if it comes with an inevitable bias (there's no such thing as unbiased opinion, if there is, go and ask an Apple Genius which makes a better web server: Linux or OSX. Guess what the answer will be).

Re:Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[LWATCDR]

Except that the Apple Genius is there to provide tech support. The Microsoft Guru's are their to sell you Vista and not provide support.
I thought that Vista was just not worth the effort. Bur frankly these ads are so bad and pushing the "We don't stink as bad as you think" really does make me wonder.

Re:Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[LWATCDR]

Actually my wife wants to try out Vista 64. She currently dual boots in Ubuntu and XP. She likes Ubuntu just fine except that some of the graphics indexing programs for Linux don't handle indexing pictures on removable media as well as the programs on Windows.
She does digital scrapbooking using Gimp and really needs good indexing software for all of her images.
She figures she might as well try Vista64 on her new PC.

Re:Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista is the Yugo of OSs, just as long as you take off all the tires.

"I was going to put Vista 64 on my wife's new PC." Dear god! You must really, really hate her.

Re:Microsoft hireing salespeople to push Vista.

[Anonymous Coward]

Their adds where people try Vista and say gee this doesn't suck.

No, they SEE vista then say it doesn't suck. They never use it.

Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[jcr]

This could be worse than staffing one of the Dell kiosks in a mall where there's an Apple store.

-jcr

Re:Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[Hyppy]

Except many people are actually interested in buying a Dell. See, the human population doesn't entirely consist of frothing Mac/Jobs fanbois.

Re:Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[jcr]

"frothing Mac/Jobs fanbois"?

Your witty retorts need a bit of work, sunshine.

-jcr

Re:Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[dzfoo]

>> See, the human population doesn't entirely consist of frothing Mac/Jobs fanbois.

No, but I'd bet that the majority of people would be more impressed with the shiny boxes found inside the trendy store with the cool looking guys, than with the ones sitting on a pull-cart in the middle of the walkway, manned by a bored looking bloke payed minimum wage.

        -dZ.

Re:Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[Hyppy]

"The majority of people" cannot afford a Mac. When you spend $2,500 on a computer, versus $500, you're not getting 5 times the computer, especially for what most people do.

Re:Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[Anonymous Coward]

They just need to change their approach a bit.
--happy ubuntu dell owner ($1020 inspiron 1420n)

Re:Man, talk about a job that would suck.

[myz24]

But they'll happily shell out the additional 2k in AV upgrades over the next 3 years, trips to BB's geek squad to get their PC fixed again, another battery and the general unhappiness with their computer after a few years.

At the end of the $500 computers life time the $2500 computer will still be worth $500.

Guru

[notknown86]

Sure. And I'll be the guy paid nothing. To push something people don't know they want. Funny thing is - I actually like my job.

So, propaganda then?

[gstoddart]

Not to be overly cynical, but this sounds like paying a bunch of people to walk around and try to convince the user that the experience won't suck, has never sucked, and that I'm merely deluded.

I mean, how much of it will be true, and how much of it will simply sound like a sales pitch from someone who drank the Kool Aid?

Man, shopping in most electronics stores is annoying enough -- having some git wandering around stumping for Windows Vista is just one more nuisance to avoid. If I'm standing there looking at a PC, and after I've shooed the salesman away, I don't want to then have to deal with some MS shill.

Hearing that they won't actually be useful sources of information for existing customers only re-affirms my cynicism about this program.

Cheers

Re:So, propaganda then?

[RobBebop]

Sooner or later there will be "Milk Mavens" at the local supermarket standing in the Diary isle to tell you that you should drink milk and that the stories about lactose intolerance are just myths told by "Big Soda" to ween you into their camp.

And after that "Coke Crusaders" will start marching up and down public commercial streets crying the glories of their black carbonated sugar water.

And then, the terrorists will have won.

Re:So, propaganda then?

[supernova_hq]

after I've shooed the salesman away

You must not be familiar with BestBuy...

Re:So, propaganda then?

[gstoddart]

"after I've shooed the salesman away"

You must not be familiar with BestBuy...

Actually, here in Canada, we have Best Buy and Future Shop -- both owned by the same parent company. To the best of my knowledge, Best Buy isn't commissioned sales, Future Shop is.

The sales people in Best Buy are actually fairly good at backing off in my experience. Walking through a Future Shop, and you get one humping your leg and following you around every few feet -- they can be quite aggressive.

I have had to resort to finally telling the salesman to piss off, and if I needed him I'd get him. If you look cranky enough, they do get out of your way.

Cheers

Re:So, propaganda then?

[supernova_hq]

I also live in Canada, and I think you actually missed the joke. The joke was meant to be read so as to explain that the BestBuy personnel are pretty good at AVOIDING customers, every time I go there, I have to find them (usually hiding 10' behind a counter looking at the corner of the wall) and then "interrupt" their silent moment in order to answer a question. Next thing I know, they're gone again!

Re:So, propaganda then?

[gstoddart]

*laugh* Yes, obviously I missed it then. I interpreted it as "how could you possible shoo away a Best Buy salesman". :-P

Cheers

Re:So, propaganda then?

[nine-times]

I mean, how much of it will be true, and how much of it will simply sound like a sales pitch from someone who drank the Kool Aid?

Well I, for one, can't wait until the training manuals for this job get leaked online.

I discovered the script for Seattle.

[BitterOldGUy]

Looking at where they're hiring I noticed Seattle, WA. I obtained the script that the Gurus will use there. It says, "Buy Vista or else the man on the hill there will find out!"

Re:I discovered the script for Seattle.

[gcarriger]

the page you linked contains a phishing Attack http://www.winvistaclub.com/forum/windows-vista-clubhouse/21519-microsoft-looking-windows-gurus-phishing-attack.html#post96280

Good luck with that

[Fishbulb]

they are not intended to be sources of free technical support for existing Vista users

Until the people they convinced to buy Vista come back to the store in a black fart of rage looking for blood or someone to kidnap until their machine works like it did before.

Good. Freaking. Luck.

Re:Good luck with that

[Just Some Guy]

Until the people they convinced to buy Vista come back to the store in a black fart of rage

Either you mistyped "fit" or you have some seriously unpleasant anger issues.

Re:Good luck with that

[gstoddart]

"Until the people they convinced to buy Vista come back to the store in a black fart of rage"

Either you mistyped "fit" or you have some seriously unpleasant anger issues.

Just wait for his yellow fart of contempt. It's a doozy!!

Cheers

Re:Good luck with that

[hendrix2k]

Until the people they convinced to buy Vista come back to the store in a black fart of rage looking for blood or someone to kidnap until their machine works like it did before.

Good. Freaking. Luck.

Actually the amusing part is that I've seen a number of new Apple customers come back to a Best Buy in just such a rage after the Apple Rep encouraged them to dump windows.

For the average (quote "I ain't very computer illiterate" unquote) user who is coming from Windows XP, Vista really is the better choice for them. It's horribly depressing, but true.

Also of note: Best Buy does, in fact, sell Ubuntu (when I was a salesperson, it could often be found sitting right next to the Vista machines).

Re:Good luck with that

[Ron_Fitzgerald]

Just wait for his yellow fart of contempt. It's a doozy!!

Is that because it is +12 poison attack?

Re:Good luck with that

[Quiet_Desperation]

black fart of rage

You win my "Phrase Of The Week" award. :-)

Slashdot not listed on where I saw this Job

[Ash Vince]

For some reason they do not list Slashdot in the list of sites to choose from where you heard about the job on the Application form. Strange.

Re:Slashdot not listed on where I saw this Job

[pandrijeczko]

I think what's funnier is having the application form visible to Slashdotters now.

How many bogus applications do you think they are now going to get from "Mike Rowsoft-Sucks" and "Tux Penguin" do you think they are *now* going to get?

Not a chance

[FireStormZ]

The apple stores centers around 3 things

1) The Genius
2) An army of employees running around to help people
3) A non intimidating open and easy to navigate store

Everything they do hight lights those two things, because they can do your credit card purchase remotely they can spend more time helping people decide. They reserve so much of the store for their training sessions and demo units that the Apple store does not feel like a big box store. I don't have to work my was past cameras, dvd's, home appliances, and video games to get to the computers.

The apple gurus are *not* sales folks and I have had them send me other places rather than buy an over priced adapter (ironically they sent me to best buy) meanwhile the 'The (Microsoft) Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs'. Yea thats what MS need more sales pressure at best buy...

Re:Not a chance

[jbreckman]

I was at an Apple store looking to buy Logic Express 8 (which I love), and was talking to an employee about the stuff I would be missing by not having Logic Studio 8.

It was a $300 difference and I only really wanted 10% of the added stuff that Studio had, so I said "Hey, is there a way to just get that one plug-in pack?"

The response? "No... you could always just go find a torrent with it and download that"

I was very impressed :)

Re:Not a chance

[FireStormZ]

Yea, The apple store is a *very* non pressure environment which for many non technical users is very helpful. The whole point of the genius is to answer simple questions..

Re:Not a chance

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to diminish your post, but I have a a few friends that work or have worked at the Apple store. Yes, the geniuses are great, but there is pressure to sell "if there is an opportunity". It's kind of hands off, but if you can definitely "underperform" on the sales end. I mean, it makes sense. Apple wants to sell you more things.

Re:Not a chance

[initialE]

Is it no wonder that they don't have an Apple store where I live. Over here I don't think they would trust anyone to run one, so all we get are stores that kinda look like Apple stores, but in the end, they feel just like any other computer shop.

Re:Not a chance

[Anonymous Coward]

The apple stores centers around 3 things

1) The Genius

2) An army of employees running around to help people

3) A non intimidating open and easy to navigate store

Everything they do hight lights those two things

Swing, and a miss.

Re:Not a chance

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think they're not there to make sales you're in the wrong head space. I spent 25 minutes explaining a so called 'genius' im not interested in the Apple Care warranty program.

Re:Not a chance

[FireStormZ]

"It's kind of hands off, but if you can definitely "underperform" on the sales end."

There may be pressure on them, Im pretty sure apple is just as into selling crap as MS is but the Apple store employees don't make customers feel pressured..

Re:Not a chance

[ceoyoyo]

One point: Apple stores centre around the customer, before and after purchase.

Best Buy centers around the consumer. You need it, they've got it (somewhere, probably). After you've consumed they're done with you.

Apple has figured out that if you treat your customer well they're both more likely to come back and more likely to forgive you when you screw up.

Re:Not a chance

[jaymz666]

If the point of a genius is to answer simple questions, who is supposed to answer the hard questions?

Re:Not a chance

[FireStormZ]

they do that as well but what many on /. would consider a hard question is probably a huge out lier for what the geniuses get..

Re:Not a chance

[jaymz666]

If you're going to use the term Genius for a store monkey, then they should know the answers to most of the outliers.

Re:Not a chance

[FireStormZ]

and they would, I have seldom (if ever) met one who I thought was a light weight and I have been to quite a few apple stores...

Re:Not a chance

[nine-times]

The apple gurus are *not* sales folks and I have had them send me other places rather than buy an over priced adapter (ironically they sent me to best buy) meanwhile the 'The (Microsoft) Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs'. Yea thats what MS need more sales pressure at best buy...

The original Apple store in SoHo used to be famous for sending people to other stores, particularly Tekserv (an older store that specialized in Apple-related products), whenever the customer would be better served by that other store. Since the store was being run by Apple, they were more interested in making sure people were happy with their Apple products than making a quick buck from an overpriced sale.

I'm not sure if they still do that, though. I haven't been in there in a pretty long time.

Re:Not a chance

[sootman]

...they can do your credit card purchase remotely they can spend more time helping people decide...

Except when the credit card machines are on the fritz (like after recovering from a mall-wide power outage)--I had to stand in line 20 MINUTES behind 4 PEOPLE being helped by a SINGLE CASHIER who had to write out a sales slip BY HAND for EVERY PURCHASE, even my $20 CASH transaction.

Not an Apple hater, just had a really dopey experience there once. :-)

Re:Not a chance

[bill_mcgonigle]

If the point of a genius is to answer simple questions, who is supposed to answer the hard questions?

They send you to 800-SOS-APPL, or whatever the number is now.

So, the proper procedure for a hard mac question is, assuming each step fails:

1) go to Apple store
2) wait in Genius Bar line
3) ask question
4) be told to go home and call 800 number, which you do and:
5) get level 1 tech. explain your problem and be asked to archive&install OSX
6) get level 2 tech. explain your problem and be transferred to a level 3 tech
7) get level 3 tech. explain your problem and be offered mail-in hardware service
8) post to macrumors forums and get an answer in a few hours
9) post to apple discussions and get an answer in a month
10) post to dedicated software mailing list and get a good answer in a couple days
11) start in on ktrace/dtrace and find the problem or file a bug report
12) problem reported fixed in release not yet for sale
13) buy upgrade

Re:Not a chance

[bill_mcgonigle]

Good advice for any business. 'consumer' is such a dirty word.

Re:Not a chance

[ceoyoyo]

If only more would catch on.

Calling your customers consumers not only irritates them, but it psychologically puts your salespeople, managers, designers, execs -- the entire operation on entirely the wrong footing.

Re:Not a chance

[Anonymous Coward]

The apple stores centers around 3 things

Everything they do hight lights those two things

Proof Apple fans can't count!

Re:Not a chance

[r_jensen11]

Yea thats what MS need more sales pressure at best buy...

Funny- whenever I go to Best Buy and have a question (e.g. Where is X?) the employees are too busy talking to each other to bother to pause even as I'm standing next to them for over a minute.

Don't bother trying to solve problems...

[FranTaylor]

"as this has no financial return beyond improved customer satisfaction"

This just says it all about the entire Microsoft experience.

Re:Don't bother trying to solve problems...

[Anonymous Coward]

exactly. but note that this is a quote of a gartner analyst, not someone at MS.

Lucky?

[Anonymous Coward]

I must be extremely lucky. I bought a PC with Vista on it last Thanksgiving. I have had absolutely no problems with Vista.

Windows Gurus vs Apple Geniuses

[ilovesymbian]

Windows Gurus vs Apple Geniuses... they are more or less the same.

Lets see who'll win the bout. I've been to BestBuy many times since they started selling Macs, and I have yet to find someone who can answer my questions.

Maybe the best guys to hire are the little Linux school geeks in my neighborhood.

Re:Windows Gurus vs Apple Geniuses

[joetheappleguy]

Maybe you are asking the wrong questions to the wrong people?

If you are asking Linux questions to a an Apple or BestBuy rep at a retail floor it might be a lot like complaining about your Volvo's air conditioner to the Kawasaki salesman.

Re:Windows Gurus vs Apple Geniuses

[ilovesymbian]

Actually, I'm asking the guy wearing the "Apple" badge questions about MacOS. He doesn't know anything about iWork licensing or about the kernel. All he knows is "these are iMacs and MacBooks". Smart genius indeed!!!

Maybe...

[Arc the Daft]

Maybe it's not a good idea to deploy a new product when the majority of the existing user base already has your previous product, which meets their needs.

Maybe it's not good PR to actively try and change the needs of said user base for the sole purpose of getting more users onto your new product.

Maybe it's the most effective thing Microsoft can do...

Who comes up with this crap?

[dave562]

What tool in Microsoft land decided to create a highly visible position that can't actually help people with the system? One of the most frequently asked questions directed toward me when I enter any retail establishment is, "How can I help you?" As consumers we are conditioned to expect that people who are employed at a store are there to help us. This is just a PR nightmare waiting to happen. I can see the PC vs Mac commercial already....

[Enter PC and Mac. Each of them has a friend.]

Mac, "Hey PC, who is your friend?"

PC, "This is my [Microsoft store tool]. She's here to tell everyone how great Vista is. I see you have a friend. What does he do?"

Mac, "This is my genius. He helps everyone USE their Apple and answers any technical questions that they may have. PC, does your friend answer technical questions? Does your friend do anything other than try to convince people to spend money on a product and then leave them out in the cold when they have questions about it? Huh? Does he? Or is he just another over paid, worthless, Microsoft marketing..."

PC, "Shut up Mac!"

Re:Who comes up with this crap?

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is wrong with this Mac dude anyway? Why is he always an asshole? Seriously, I bring a friend over, and he insults him?

You know what my response to Mac is in this case? "You know what Mac? You can just go f' yourself. You think you're so f'ing hot with your vendor lock in and limited developer support. Hey, I've got a question for you Mac. If your OS is so f'ing great, then why the hell did you create boot camp to run Windows. Why are you just some fancy unix operating system that sells for twice the price as the cost of an equivelently configured Ubuntu box?"

Re:Who comes up with this crap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft store tool: pulls out a gun and shoots the mac guy in the head.

PC: pats tool on head, "That's a good Microsoft store tool."

End of mac commercials.

Re:Who comes up with this crap?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least Windows users get laid.

I guess technically Mac users get laid too, if you count gay anal sex.

Re:Who comes up with this crap?

[ceoyoyo]

"As consumers we are conditioned to expect that people who are employed at a store are there to help us."

Hm? As a "consumer" I'm conditioned to expect that people who are employed at a store are there to separate me from my cash with a minimum effort.

In the very few places that treat me as a customer, I'm pleasantly surprised that they're able to help me.

The first time I smashed up a vehicle my father and I drove to the little one-man autobody shop in the next town. Why? He told me "this is the only autobody guy who's ever told me something wasn't worth fixing. I've come to him ever since."

Re:Who comes up with this crap?

[Nebu]

[Enter PC and Mac. Each of them has a friend.]

Mac, "Hey PC, who is your friend?"

PC, "This is my [Microsoft store tool]. She's here to tell everyone how great Vista is. I see you have a friend. What does he do?"

Mac, "This is my genius. He helps everyone USE their Apple and answers any technical questions that they may have. PC, does your friend answer technical questions? Does your friend do anything other than try to convince people to spend money on a product and then leave them out in the cold when they have questions about it? Huh? Does he? Or is he just another over paid, worthless, Microsoft marketing..."

PC, "Shut up Mac!"

WTF is wrong with this Mac dude anyway? Why is he always an asshole? Seriously, I bring a friend over, and he insults him?

Agreed. I was originally going to respond to the GP with a comment along the lines of "You know, this commercial you wrote doesn't sound like it'd be very effective, 'cause it makes the Mac guy seem quite hostile, and generally give off 'negative vibes' which is usually not what you want in a commercial." but then I remembered that most of Apple's official commercials tend to have this tone.

You know what my response to Mac is in this case? "You know what Mac? You can just go f' yourself. You think you're so f'ing hot with your vendor lock in and limited developer support. Hey, I've got a question for you Mac. If your OS is so f'ing great, then why the hell did you create boot camp to run Windows. Why are you just some fancy unix operating system that sells for twice the price as the cost of an equivelently configured Ubuntu box?"

Actually, I feel like your ending then makes the PC guy drop down to the Mac Guy's level. If I wanted to promoted Microsoft over Apple, I'd probably instead end it like this:

Mac: This is my genius. He helps everyone USE their Apple and answers any technical questions that they may have. PC, does your friend answer technical questions? Does your friend do anything other than try to convince people to spend money on a product and then leave them out in the cold when they have questions about it? Huh? Does he? Or is he just another over paid, worthless, Microsoft marketing...

PC: Hey man, what's your problem? Why are you always being an asshole? Seriously, I bring a friend over and you insult him? Look, I was trying to be your friend and hang out with you and stuff, but you're always putting me down. And for what? My choice in operating systems? Anyway, look, I'm gonna go hang out with my friend here. If you want to talk about this again in a couple of days, give me a call or something. Or if you just want to end our friendship right here and now, that's fine too. Whatever, is fine. But you've really made the situation awkward right now for badmouthing my friend before he even said hello. So maybe I'll see you around later. (Nodding to the Apple Genius) Oh, and it was nice to meet you. Sorry we couldn't have met under better conditions.

If I wanted to promote Apple's products over Microsoft's products, on the other hand, I probably would have gone with a completely different approach than the "Mac guy vs PC guy", 'cause as I hinted above, I really don't find the Mac guy appealing because of his antagonism. Maybe I'd go back to that old "computers for the rest of us" image, and try to imply that non-Apple computers are what you use at boring desk jobs, but when you're at home, having fun, Apple is the only way to go. And completely drop mentions of one specific enemy (e.g. Microsoft) altogether.

Re:Who comes up with this crap?

[Anonymous Coward]

well to be fair there is no reason why people should think that store employees are here to help us. There job is as a means to sell us things, just because the retail sales model has in recent decades moved away from a commission based model doesn't mean that a more aggressive sales pitch doesn't work.

So? Apple does this too

[Anonymous Coward]

I know in my country everytime I go into a chain electronics store I'm badgered by those damn Apple "guru" guys in the computer section.
How is this any different?

New Apple Commercial goes:

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I am a Mac.
and I am a PC.
and I am a Mac Genius.
and I am a Windows Gurus.

$20 and hour? Plus benefits? Sweet ....

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if the benefits include discounts on other Microsoft products, such as, er, Windows XP licenses?

They feast on the computers of the living

[David Gerard]

Maybe they could get Windows zombies instead. "Memoryyy ... memoryyy ..."

Seriously, these guys will be the human equivalent of Zunes as far as an answer to Apple goes. "I dunno, reboot and reinstall." How are they going to do more than the local PC shop does?

Re:They feast on the computers of the living

[griffjon]

So, you initiate conversation with a Vista Guru while continuing to walk through BB, innocently meandering towards the Apple area, making sure to get near the Apple rep (if any). Once within earshot, ask about the whole iTunes/Vista BSOD silliness, and wait until the Guru and the Apple guy knock each other out, then loot the bodies! Effortless!

Re:They feast on the computers of the living

[Creepy Crawler]

Wow... A usenet crosspost troll in real life!

+5 Real Ultimate Powah

Re:They feast on the computers of the living

[griffjon]

I was thinking more along the line of catching enemies in their own crossfire in DOOM.

But that works too.

Only 155?

[Capt James McCarthy]

I guess that's all they could find for a "Guru" willing to accept $20.00 per hour. Sorry, but if you use "expert," "genius," or "guru" in your title, you will not see $20.00 per hour.

Re:Only 155?

[Overzeetop]

That was ny thought. $20/hr? Hell, I live in the middle of nowhere, and if these were really people who knew the ins and outs of windows they'd have to pay twice that. Of course, if the goal is to have someone who can memorize the CS support line script instead of reading it off the screen into the phone, then you can probably find some out of work actors (are there any other kind?) who will shill for $20/hr.

Hell, I don't think I'd let anyone making $20/hr touch my windows boxes. They're fragile enough as it is.

Re:Only 155?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you live in Finland where 20 euros per hour is a pretty good paycheck. But of course goverment remembers you with at least 25% income tax plus n+1 other taxes above that.

And yes. I'm bitter. And drunk. That's how we Finlanders are on friday evenings :)

Re:Only 155?

[cp.tar]

I guess that's all they could find for a "Guru" willing to accept $20.00 per hour. Sorry, but if you use "expert," "genius," or "guru" in your title, you will not see $20.00 per hour.

Well, they do say people are willing to accept a shiny, snazzy job title instead of a pay raise. So just like with managers, you'll be seeing a lot of gurus, expert, geniuses (genii?), wizards, enlightened ones (maybe these will be marketing E17?), geeks and whatnot, all of them without a clue.

My Best Buy sells Macs

[theurge14]

The Best Buy here in Overland Park, KS (few blocks away from the Sprint headquarters) has an Apple booth near the entrance. I got to see the Macbook Air there for the first time.

Let's "Get The Facts"

[mpapet]

From the site...

Windows Guru
Full-Time, including week-ends
Retail with highly competitive pay & benefits for a very rewarding position ($20/Hr+)
Requirements
Don't miss out on this unique opportunity:
If you are passionate about changing peopleâ(TM)s lives by changing how they experience technology, apply to join our team today.

Locations
Windows Guru
Store Locations - Please enter the locations of your choice in the resume box of the application form

W Hollywood CA Los Angeles CA Downey CA
Hawthorne CA Torrance CA Pasadena CA
Burbank CA Rancho Cucamonga CA West Covina CA
Chula Vista CA San Diego CA San Bernardino CA
Riverside CA Irvine CA Costa Mesa CA Westminster CA San Carlos CA
San Francisco CA Pleasant Hill CA Dublin CA
Union City CA Oakland CA Mission Viejo CA
Fullerton CA Lakewood CA San Jose CA
Washington DC Hialeah FL Pembroke Pines FL
Miami FL Aventura FL Fort Lauderdale FL
Plantation FL Boca Raton FL Brandon FL
Tampa FL St Petersburg FL
Clearwater FL
Framingham MA
Danvers MA
Rockville MD
Richfield MN
Nashua NH
Salem NH
Manchester NH
Newington NH
Union NJ
Secaucus NJ
West Paterson NJ
Paramus NJ
Henderson NV
Las Vegas NV
New York NY
Staten Island NY
Long Island City NY
Brooklyn NY
Elmhurst NY
Westbury NY
Fairfax VA
Springfield VA
Woodbridge VA
Virginia Beach VA
Newport News VA
Bellevue WA
Seattle WA
Tukwila WA
Tacoma WA

The $20/hr number has got to be some weird concoction of contractor-base+commissions. Knowing Microsoft, base pay is probably pathetic. The key here being Microsoft wants to sell hard with Worst Buy during December. I wonder if the computer brands are kicking in for this one... From the stores mentioned in my area, I'm guessing these stores perform well with a higher likelihood that they'd sell lots of PC's.

This gives you an idea how out of how dominant Microsoft is. A manufacturer like HP can't even afford to do something like this. My fondest hope is that Microsoft is under some pressure from Worst Buy to improve performance.

It will be very interesting to see Worst Buy's Q4 performance next year and what excuse they use for poor sales.

Re:Let's "Get The Facts"

[Anonymous Coward]

Only $20 an hour ?! In San Francisco, for that low of a salary I can only imagine the quality of rep they are going to get. If I were to guess, they would have the same amount of knowledge as your typical DMV rep.

Different?

[jspenguin1]

How will this be any different from the salestards that already work at BBuy? I went with my dad to buy a video card recently, and my dad mentioned that he went back to XP on his laptop. The salesguy got very defensive, saying that Vista is TEH MOST AWSOME OS EVAR, and that it runs perfectly on his machine. As it turns out, he was running Vista Ultimate with 6GB of RAM.

Line

[petehead]

I'm pretty sure that BB would have no problem replicating that huge line I always see at the Apple Store.

BSOD not enough?

[mikeboone]

I guess the BSOD was not enough? Now they want to have gurus too?

Yet another poor job of ripping off Apple

[Nova Express]

Just as the Zune was an inferior rip-off of the iPod with key features disabled, so this is an inferior ripoff of the Apple Genius concept. Why does Microsoft continually cripple their own efforts? Do they actually hate themselves that much? It's like the parable of the scorpion and the frog. Just as the scorpion can't keep from killing himself by stinnging the frog, so Microsoft can't help making their ripoffs inferior to the Apple original; it's just their nature.

Re:Yet another poor job of ripping off Apple

[ceoyoyo]

"this is an inferior ripoff of the Apple Genius concept..." with key features disabled. Like the ability to actually be helpful.

Because users need their hands held

[ronoholiv]

FTA: "All of our research shows that customers want their hands held."

What? You needed to spend money doing research to determine that? Maybe I should become a researcher and get my hands on some of that money.

Again, FTA: Gurus will also be able to help ensure that the demonstration PCs running Windows are running properly and that the in-store Vista displays are spiffed up."

So now gurus are glorified cleaners too? I'd bet that they'd spend most of their time playing solitaire on the TouchSmart HPs...unless they could install games to prove that Vista works with games. I'd happily take the position if all I needed to do was that.

Seriously, though, $20 an hour or more plus benefits for knowing and teaching Vista? Damn, if they had had that while I was in college, I wouldn't have done work study doing nearly the exact same thing with XP (and Office) for $7 an hour.

Some good bogus names for the application form

[pandrijeczko]

Ivor Bluescreen

Jen Protectionfault

D.L.L. Smissing

Mal Wareholes

Bill Ownsmee

Justin Safemode

Re:Some good bogus names for the application form

[pandrijeczko]

Norma Soverhead

Pat Chitdaily

Dee Fragmuch

Alotta Buggs

Used car salesman

[MrMarket]

"It is not to be an alternative tech support channel for Microsoft as this has no financial return beyond improved customer satisfaction"

If they are not providing tech support, where does the improved customer satisfaction come from?

Re:Used car salesman

[Weedlekin]

"If they are not providing tech support, where does the improved customer satisfaction come from?"

It comes from knowing that you only have to accept part of the blame for not listening to all those people who told you to only buy machines that come with a version of Vista which has fully manufacturer-supported XP "downgrade" rights.

real stoners

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

Don't have the energy or desire to determine all that.

I need a twinkie and some diet squirt.

Re:real stoners

[quacking duck]

I need a twinkie and some diet squirt.

Perfect! Microsoft provides this in the form of its Zune-wielding CEO, Steve "I'll squirt this song to you" Ballmer.

Oh wait, you asked for diet. Never mind.

Re:Guru? Not really ... When is "The Linux Store"

[davidsyes]

When is "The Linux Store", one like the Apple stores, coming? IBM and HP and Sun could get together, fine tune various laptop, desktop, GPS, multimedia, cellular, console, and home management systems in 10 major cities:

San Francisco
Boston
Dallas
Houston
Los Angeles
New York
Baltimore
Denver
Phoenix
Atlanta

just to name some/around 10 cities. I imagine these and other companies could find a creative way to write this off as marketing. Rent or lease properties, them them like Gateway did and Fry's does, aim the products at people earning less than $35,000 a year, and MAKE DAMNED SURE that Gutenprint, SAMBA, Webmin, VNC, and other mixed-environment tools work. Get Compiz/Beryl/Metisse working like never before. Commit to being open 18 hours a day for 2 years. Tie it in to local unemployed/trainable people so cities and counties will allow some variances that otherwise would hamper such a project. Make sure smoothies and coffee and magazines are available, as well as some games, joysticks, and ESPECIALLY CAD apps, like Punch! ViaCAD, Medusa, and products such as 3dConnexion are on hand.

It's both.

[BitterOldGUy]

OK, so they'll either:

1. Have a chair thrown at them 2. Have their F***ING air supply cut off!

This is Windows we're talking about. You better fall in line or else!

Shit! That was a sucky job of karma whoring. Umm...letme think here.....oh fuck it.

Re:It's both.

[Johnny O]

"Fall" or "Fail"?

Re:Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experienc

[dzfoo]

And the products would, you know, not suck.

        -dZ.

More like a sales guy

[www.inkampus.com]

From the summary: The Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs

I think a better term would be either "technical sales guy" or "sales engineer". Since their primary job is to SELL windows to consumer. This is further clarified by saying they wont be offering "technical support" to consumers. So its really a sales position with (some, indepth?) technical knowledge.

Expensive sales people...

[Arthur Grumbine]

The overall expenditure on this "campaign" seems relatively minor in the scope of the whole "rehab" effort.
Assuming the full-time hours stated in TFA, and that they continue this for a whole year (not stated):
$20/hr=$40k/yr
155*40k=6.2 mil
6.2 mil = A little over 2% of their total rehab effort
What sucks even more from the perspective of being one of these "salespeople" is that you, unlike the other store salespeople, don't even have the opportunity for commission, which must make it even harder to internally justify the act of promoting Vista to unsuspecting saps.

Re:Expensive sales people...

[hardburn]

Best Buy has never paid on commission. Circuit City used to, but doesn't now.

Re:Expensive sales people...

[Sorthum]

Actually, neither Best Buy nor Circuit City commission their salespeople. I know CC used to, but I don't know as BB ever did...

Re:Expensive sales people...

[rukcus]

Yea, but neither do Circuit City salespeople. On the other hand, you will be earning about 3 times as much wages that the stoner, computer illiterate salespeople will. That's a good incentive.

Re:Expensive sales people...

[Locutus]

you left out the cost of benefits for each employee. IIRC, that's around 30% so roughly that's another $2 million or $8.2 million.

With Seinfeld getting $10 million, Gates is probably getting 2x that(guess) so there's another $30 million. With production costs of all the ad spots and odds/ends it's probably $50 million not including the costs of running the TV ad spots or paying the ad company.

A drop in the bucket when you need to keep Windows important since it is pretty much your only money maker and it brings in $10s of billions in profits annually. IMO.

LoB

Re:Expensive sales people...

[Darundal]

I thought office was the big moneymaker, hence it's availability on a non-windows platform as well as on windows.

Re:Expensive sales people...

[Locutus]

nope, MS Office isn't on 90% of PCs sold, the Windows OS is. They do make a profit from MS Office but IMO, if they didn't have the Windows OS, MS Office would not have the market share.

Why they make it for the Mac is something only the execs at Microsoft know. As a rule, they do not build product for other platforms because Windows is what feeds them and without it, they all starve. ie without Windows, they have no leverage and that means a much much smaller marketshare. Every time they did do some version of a product for another OS it was for the purpose of protecting Windows. Sounds strange but it is true. IE for Solaris was to pay MainSoft so they didn't get an anti-trust case for ditching the Win32 for UNIX vendors. IE for Mac was to keep Netscape and Java off the Mac for 5 years and helped MS terminate the Netscape threat. MS Office for Mac was IIRC, Microsofts first real software project( Word for Mac ) or something like that so there's history there. If they dumped MS Office for Mac, they know the Mac crowd would file anti-trust charges and so they keep it going. I would bet they constantly talk about when to kill it as Apple is growing at a good pace at Windows expense.

I can't recall anything else in the last 15 years Microsoft did outside of their own OS. In 1994/95 OS/2 had over 15 million users, Bill Gates had once said if an OS got 15 million users they'd port MS Word to it but we knew they would never do an OS/2 version. But some still brought it up. Know of any apps I missed?

LoB

Re:Expensive sales people...

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

They could just give me $6.2mil and I'd fix the damn OS so everybody likes it and it runs well... but NOOOO, that's completely against their policy of not hiring qualified programmers from the US and retaining them.
I'm completely convinced the company is run by nuts and the developers are squirrels, chasing the nuts around and trying to get a cut. And when they find out they won't get a cut, they get cut, and the nuts bust a nut over the cut.

Re:Expensive sales people...

[stephanruby]

Best Buy has never paid on commission. Circuit City used to, but doesn't now.

Best Buy used to pay 'bonuses' on quotas, not commissions. Same difference thought.

Their sales people used to be pushy as hell to try to up-sell you on their worthless extended-warranties. Thankfully, Best Buy has stopped giving those 'bonus' incentives a couple of years ago, and their sales people have behaved as normal human beings ever since.

Re:Big deal. "do the same with cat/dog food"

[davidsyes]

Well, as long as they don't do it near the meat section...

Your Jedi mind tricks will not work on me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh well... another day, another Microsoft marketing exec NOT HAVING A #@#$$%@# CLUE.

I'm past the point where I used to laugh at this nonsense... Microsoft marketing just makes me sick to my stomach now, and it has far too much influence on the final product.

MS's new mission: Lower total equity?

[Torodung]

Seriously, it's like they've got a strategy to bleed out their legendary capital reserves on stupid crap, so when the inevitable legal settlements against them start rolling in, there won't be anything left for their opponents to recover.

This doesn't sound like sound marketing or PR; it's more like a fire sale.

If I was still a shareholder, I'd be pissed. This kind of gratuitous, overpriced PR nonsense does not increase shareholder value. Ballmer's wasting money that *you* have a stake in. He's wasting your money.

Please do something about him before your share value plummets. I really think he's lost it.

--
Toro

Do they get

[DomesticatedOnion]

Chairs to sit (or to use it otherwise)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Oh Boy, a Living, Breathing "Clippy"

[retiredtwice]

Just what MS needed....

Re:Oh Boy, a Living, Breathing "Clippy"

[smoker2]

That's ok. I found that after you've poked him in the eye a few times, he stays away.

Chief proponent implies chief

[Nicolas MONNET]

Chief comes from latin for head; the chief proponent is the top proponent, the head of the beast. Even hydras don't have 155 heads. And being a promotional tool is more bottom than top. But that's just me.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[eln]

19. All positions require the successful completion of a thorough background check and multiple-panel drug test prior to the start of your employment.

I think you're reading this requirement wrong. "Successful completion" of a multi-panel drug test means that you need to show proof that you are actually taking some sort of mind-altering drug or they won't allow you to work for them. The reason for this is simple: Being willing to work as a Windows Vista evangelist without being under the influence of narcotics is a sure sign of dangerous mental illness.

This might backfire, too

[ghoti]

When people start to realize that these "gurus" won't help them with their problems, they will get more irritated than with the usual clueless Best Buy salesdrones. After all, what do you expect a guru to do? Answer questions!

So they will either have to figure out some kind of transition to make those gurus available for tech support (which of course means a lot more training), or end up doing more damage than good.

Re:This might backfire, too

[Firehed]

My thought exactly. Either Microsoft is more ass-backwards than I had previously thought, or they simply don't understand how to compete on the same plane. Apple has plenty of people walking the sales floor answering questions and doing actual sales work, but so does Best Buy. Aside from generally needing less support in the first place, part of that Apple Store Experience is seeing that help desk and seeing that there's a physical presence where you can get any problems solved (or at least assessed, when it comes to hardware repair and such).

The last thing that would make me buy Vista is more people pitching the damn thing to me. I don't hate it, but knowing that I could bring the machine in to have someone actually look at it and not have to fail at diagnosing it over the phone from India would be a HUGE selling point for most people. Not the geeks of Slashdot for the most part, but at least for the majority of those who have attempted to use phone support.

Customer service-oriented companies are destined to succeed when their competitors are only sales-oriented. Apple creates a positive experience* by trying to start you off well and ensure that you're taken care of if problems are encountered. This is rarely if ever the case with Microsoft and the hardware companies that bundle its software. They treat customer support as a cost of doing business rather than a value-add for customers, and it always shows. That may work once, but it sure as hell doesn't generate repeat customers, let alone all of the free word-of-mouth advertising that Apple gets these days.

*I've had plenty of issues with my MBP, but they've all been hardware-related except for one odd corrupted plist file that took them all of five minutes to fix, unlike all of the software problems on my Windows-based systems. They actually worked to fix the problems. Except for when I had a CD burner die in a Dell back in 2002 or so, I've never witnessed this with MS-based vendors as a consumer.

Re:This might backfire, too

[nine-times]

The last thing that would make me buy Vista is more people pitching the damn thing to me. I don't hate it, but knowing that I could bring the machine in to have someone actually look at it and not have to fail at diagnosing it over the phone from India would be a HUGE selling point for most people. Not the geeks of Slashdot for the most part, but at least for the majority of those who have attempted to use phone support.

Where you hit a bit of a problem, though, is that Microsoft is just providing the OEM software, and other people provide the hardware. Even if Microsoft wanted to provide tech support like this, what do they do when it's a hardware/driver problem?

So there's an advantage that Apple has by selling an integrated hardware/software platform. It allows them to provide a better experience and provide better support. At least in theory.

Re:This might backfire, too

[jp10558]

I don't hate it, but knowing that I could bring the machine in to have someone actually look at it and not have to fail at diagnosing it over the phone from India would be a HUGE selling point for most people

Isn't that what the Geek Squad and Firedog(WTH name is that?) is supposedly for? What role are these Gurus supposedly filling that the salespeople or Techies *already* hired by the retailers don't? Why would Best Buy or Circuit City *want* the competition from MS Gurus who supposedly do... something...

I mean, even if the salespeople aren't on commission, they are given sales #s to hit, and often there are contests with some sort of prize for winning...

Re:This might backfire, too

[jedidiah]

It's still Microsoft's software. A Microsoft expert should still
know a lot more about getting to the heart of an OS problem related
to XP or Vista than anyone else.

They might not be able to do anything more than pass blame but
they should be able to do that part very effectively and very
efficiently.

Infact, such a "microsoft guru" could isolate the user's problem
and complain to the relevant 3rd party vendor.

Re:This might backfire, too

[NotBornYesterday]

Knowing how to sell something at a technical level does NOT mean that you know how to service it. Granted, there are areas where presales technical knowledge will help in a postsales environment, but they really are two different areas of expertise, requiring different training and experience. Of course, that's why real gurus are is high demand ... because they know something inside and out, and can explain it to others. Somehow, I don't think that rushing some PFYs through Vista indoctrination is going to yield a high-quality crop of "gurus".

Re:This might backfire, too

[Sentry21]

I'm inclined to agree here. Customers might be more wary when they find out that the 'gurus' are only there to help you until you buy, at which point you're on your own.

And what does Best Buy do if a customer brings back a computer to return, claiming that one of the gurus told them something that turned out not to be true? If it's a BB salesdrone, then the company takes responsibility, but what if it's a Microsoft staffer? Are they going to say 'sorry, we didn't tell you that so we won't refund you'?

Re:This might backfire, too

[Firehed]

In theory, yes, that's what they're for. However from the customer's perspective, that's a (very much not insignificant) added cost. Remember, Geek Squad will charge you something like $120 for an OS install (that number comes from my ass, but I doubt it's too far off the mark), and lord have mercy if you ever have hardware problems and are out of the manufacturer's warranty.

With Apple OTOH, you pay $(150|200|250 depending on system) once and get unlimited parts and labor for three years, and people that are actually good at what they do. Yes, Apple's closed ecosystem makes their job 10x easier (and reduces problems by another order of magnitude to start), but Apple's Genius Bar is seen as a helpful resource rather than an added cost by customers. I'll note that it's more than paid for itself on my MBP, well beyond the point where they've lost money on that one copy of Applecare (but made it back and then some by keeping me as a customer). As far as I'm concerned, both of us won - and THAT is what Microsoft needs (but will fail) to address with their "Gurus". I don't think the insurance company business model would really work at commodity shops like Best Buy or Circuit City, if for no reason other than short-sighted shareholders (and yes, there are a LOT of other reasons).

Applecare exists for the sole purpose of keeping customers happy and getting word of mouth advertisements. It's profits are probably next to nothing, if it turns at profit at all between employee time and replacement hardware costs. Geek Squad et al were designed from day one to be profit centers, and potential customers know this. BB/CC would, of course, hate the 'competition' from a MS Guru if that person existed as a support center, because those companies tend to be too short-sighted. I hate to sound like I'm evangelzing for Apple, but you'd be foolish to deny that Steve Jobs' approach of "manage the top line and the bottom line will follow" (look at the interview on appleinsider following the iPod announcement a few days ago) is working really damn well, especially in an environment where customers tend to get the shaft.

Re:This might backfire, too

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

Yeah you know Micro$oft could actually include a manual with their OS, I mean after you've paid the $400 or whatever it costs... They could document their systems and make it accessible to their users... They could offer toll-free tech support to the people who paid the $400 for the OS.
Face it, Microsoft is not about producing operating systems... They are an Indian monopoly bent on having back-doors into the PCs of every computer on the planet. They want to maintain their power and Vista does exactly that.

Re:This might backfire, too

[jp10558]

Well, I don't really know what applecare covers, but it sounds like the standard extended warrenty to me... Does it cover software glitches? Because if it mainly covers hardware and labor, so does BB and CC protection plans, which spec out at similar prices or +$100 for accidental damage coverage. Apple may be better at the marketing and or higher better techs or have an easier job, but the general offering is quite similar to your description - they will work on it for 3 years to fix any hardware problems, and if they can't fix it, they will give you your money towards a replacement.

Think "backlash".

[khasim]

What happens when the customer comes back NEXT weekend and tries to get the "guru" that gave him the advice to buy the Vista box?

Okay, grab a different "guru". Why can't you answer my question? The other guy said that it WOULD work.

It's not going to take many episodes like that before this becomes a disaster for them.

Re:So, propaganda then? Would this be trespass?

[davidsyes]

Suppose Linux & Apple fans go "shopping", wearing their "Linux"/"Mac" or "In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?" shirts. Would the store kick them out? Would the store "suggest" 3 times, then call the police and claim they "ordered" them out? Would the cops ask for video footage and mic tapes?

Would msoft hire security to bounce out the shoppers? Well, the shoppers with Linux & Mac t-shirts would definitely have to get a shopping cart, put in some items, and be prepared to buy at least ONE of those items to be legit. If the store guards or staff DO kick out the shoppers, it could make for bad press. See my other comment:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=962097&cid=24980691

But, it might be nice if Linux Stores are opened near these "Vista experience" outlets.

Be sure to send in letters to the local media to get some "hitch hiker" coverage for Linux. If they refuse to carry the story, remind them that campaigners do it when they don't want to pay for TV time, or to distance themselves from potential backfiring releases...

umm.

[sunshinekiller]

Maybe its time for the Microsoft Store and compete head on with the Apple Store and hire hippies and punk kids to work in it and make MS look awesome!

I should sue them...

[guruevi]

For infringement on the copyright of my name. Or didn't they read the EULA that's with Guru in the Dictionary? A guru is a Teacher or an Expert, not a Sales Drone. Since they don't do either of them (teach about or be an expert on Vista), they shouldn't call them Guru's.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[Tauvix]

It has nothing to do with software. It is, however, a pretty standard requirement for application to most jobs these days.

The last two jobs I have accepted a position with (both with large corporations) required this kind of testing.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, really ?

Apple don't. At least, they didn't for me.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[Windows_NT]

It keeps real programmers from working for them

Making Lemonade

[xPsi]

Well, at least someone in the store will now actually know something about the merchandise. I mean that, of course, with all due respect to BB and CC (and Apple Store) -- exactly the due respect. The need for special titles for certain employees like "Windows Gurus" and "Apple Geniuses" is just indicating who they should have hired for the sales jobs in the first place. Since when does a hands, on, working knowledge of a topic certify you as a guru or genius? This should be the entry level criteria!

Re:Making Lemonade

[ceoyoyo]

You do know that an Apple Genius doesn't sell stuff, right? If you have a problem with your Apple product (that you OWN) you can go see a genius and they'll fix it for you. Live, in-person tech support. From my experience they're not the equivalent of the telephone front line script-reading monkey either, but rather closer to the guy who actually looks at your hardware after the script monkey gives up and tells you to ship it in.

The Windows Gurus... your point applies 100%.

Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experience?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Customer walks out of bb and goes to apple.

These are company reps

[fermion]

Company representatives are nothing new or interesting. Many printer companies will pay a rep to hang around the printer department and encourage you to buy their brand of printer. This is not helping the customer as it may be that the printer might not be best the customer. These people are level below the commission sales staff, because at least such staff will try to get you the best match of what is in stock.

These pushers are why MS can't sell vista. They want to sell the product, they want to market it, but they won't support it. What Apple has is the personal touch. Chat icon on the help website. People at the stores you can talk to when you have problem. They support the product. Anyone can go in and talk to a rep for free, even on old product. MS does not support anyone without an additional charge.

Here is what would encourage people to buy vista and MS based computers in general. For about 100 million dollars they could put a help technician in every best buy store. Just a person sitting a desk. Wiling to help anyone who came in with a question. I bet Best Buy would donate facilities. Anytime someone had an issue with any MS Windows based computer, just come in a get some help. Make a reservation. Get the help in person. Do you think MS spent less than $100 million on the series of ad with Seinfeld, and those don't help anyone. The sales droid walking around lying to customers don't help anyone either. It realy seems like MS will spend money on anything other than helping the end user.

Re:These are company reps

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

You can't support products which don't work in the first place... Anybody knowledgeable enough to support Vista would destroy Micro$oft's reputation with the answers.
Q."Why is it so slow?"
A."Because our back-door spy program is monitoring everything you do"
Q. "Why doesn't my device work with Vista?"
A. "Because the manufacturer hasn't paid us $20,000 for a device driver which we'll outsource to India for $50, costing your friends their jobs."
Q."How does Vista compare to Linux?"
A."Linux is superior in all aspects. You can run a virtualized XP with your favorite game and it will still run faster than Vista."

Actually It's Not Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

The Vista experience is really not bad. It's not stellar though. Linux is a joke for a basic or new user. Mac is nice.

So you can pay some extra for Vista as an OS and run almost any productivity software available (I do). Or you can pay a hell of a lot more for hardware and an OS that runs a minuscule percentage of the software an MS OS does.

I use Vista at home, XP at work, Mac at home. I like the Mac experience but outside of virtualizing an MS OS to run the software and games I want to on it it's nigh on useless. My buddy got a kick ass Mac and his first comment was, "Cool I can run Vista inside Mac so I can still run my work software." Woo hoo. So productive.

Your caller ID reads NIMF when...

[kiehlster]

"Apple hires Mac Geniuses to work in Best Buy stores." "Hi, I'm a Mac." "And I'm a PC..."

"In other news, a rise in violent crimes is attributed to Apple and Windows advocates mimicking TV behavior in Best Buy stores that continues to erode peoples perception between reality and television viewing."

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[redxxx]

None of this has anything to do with actual software. It has to do with image. Strung out felons tend to not help create a good image.

It's BS and an invasion of privacy, and unless someone has very serious issues it's ineffective due to various helpful products. Most jobs these days require either a 4 year degree or UA.

 

Vista VS everything

[TbB_thund3rp33l]

Why do people hate it so much? I understand it is not the best, biggest, etc ... however, I use VistaU64, VistaU32, XPpro64, XPhome, ubuntu and Suse .. I get my Mac taste from the GFs laptop, I use them all relatively frequently and find they ALL do what they are supposed to do, just sometimes you might have to actually LEARN the OS you are playing with to do something "not out of the box".

I work at a FutureShop in Canada as one of the managers of the computer repair areas, we get the "isn't Vista bad?" questions all the time. I tell them, it does what you need it to do for most users. It is a PIG and can be frustrating, however, I am not about to unleash redhat or ubuntu onto them.

Most of the people who think that Vista has problems also believe everything else that mass marketing has told them. Mac just MS to the punch.

Dont get me wrong .. a MS puppet I am not, however, you get me something besides a mac onto those shelves that has the driver support of MS/Vista products and I will gladly tell people to take a look ...

Fanboys aren't what they used to be...

[damn_registrars]

I remember when I worked a CompUSA, back when they were the exclusive retailer for Apple. We generally tried to keep one Apple specialist on staff at all times.

However, he was usually outnumbered by Apple fanboys that came in to the store to spread the good word of Apple, for no pay at all. Apparently local Apple owners were so in love with their Apples that they were willing to come in and preach the word of how much they loved their Apple, just for the fun of it.

And yes, of course the fanboys sometimes new more than our Apple specialist on staff.

But now Microsoft is going to pay fanboys to go in to retailers and preach the gospel. That really says something when the product from Microsoft cannot build the fandom that Apple had 10 or more years ago.

Disclaimer - I use neither Apple nor Microsoft products in my own personal use.

Och aye

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a bit more per hour than I get for desktop support at a public university, and I've been here for three years.

Granted I'm in western Missouri and the cost of living is cheaper than most of the country, but still. $20/hr plus benefits for an entry-level position?

I do something similar every year with HP

[Badbone]

Yes, I know this is "hate Microsoft" central, but lets try a bit of objectivity. HP, and Im sure other companies do the same thing.

Each year, during the holidays, I work for a subcontractor of HP in a Best Buy, Circuit City, whatever, to be a rep for HP products. For $20 an hour, ten hours a week I fix displays, keep track of inventory, help people with buying decisions, etc.

At no point was I told to exert undue pressure on someone to buy. Or to misrepresent the product. Or talk down competitors. I am there to demo products, and give my honest opinion.

This just isnt as ominous as people make it out to be. Standard practice, from any other company.

Re:I do something similar every year with HP

[deets101]

I agree, I have done this for HP and actually handed off customers to the Canon rep so he could explain their printers. I did not fix any hardware issues at all. I did however, help with questions regarding technical spec's and help customers find the correct print cartridge. The stores like this because you don't make any sales (their employees do) and their employees are freed up to answer other questions, etc.

Re:Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experienc

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be true if PC prices were tripled, and the whole interior of the store was white.

I am going to start a potentially recursive memefest by venturing:

Hey, man - the 90's called looking to get their meme back.

Websense can be pretty smart sometimes

[poetmatt]

Here's what I see when I try to go to the job description for this "windows guru" position:

Reason:
The Websense category "Phishing and Other Frauds" is filtered.

Anyone surprised?

I'm amused.

Retail and Microsoft

[borkus]

Microsoft is running into trouble in three places.

1. A lot of the high dollar computer buyers are going to Apple. People willing so spend money on their PC see the Apple and Mac OS X as better value.

2. Budget minded shoppers are going to less expensive desktops and laptop where the cost of the Windows license is becoming a greater share of the price of the product. This is moving more customers to inexpensive Linux desktops and ultra-compact notebooks.

3. PCs (both desktops and even some laptops) are becoming very low profit items for retailers. Because of these low margins, retailers may be more motivated to sell upgrades and accessories in their mix rather than new systems.

This seems to be an effort by MS to win back customers and also encourage retailers to sell more new systems. I think retailers and customers would prefer an operating system that better meets consumers' needs and makes up less of the total price of the system.

Re:Retail and Microsoft

[Ash-Fox]

1. A lot of the high dollar computer buyers are going to Apple.

I haven't seen this behavior in the UK.

People willing so spend money on their PC see the Apple and Mac OS X as better value.

Nor have I observed this. Beyond the iPod, Apple products are mostly rare here. Many computers stores don't even offer a Mac, and when they do, it's usually just a single Mac Mini on display etc.

2. Budget minded shoppers are going to less expensive desktops and laptop where the cost of the Windows license is becoming a greater share of the price of the product. This is moving more customers to inexpensive Linux desktops and ultra-compact notebooks.

While there have been a notable amount of people buying stuff like the Asus Eee PC. It's been generally bought as a extra computer, not as a replacement for their laptop etc.

Re:Markets at work

[ceoyoyo]

"The point is that MS continues to listen to customers."

Problem is, they're hearing impaired.

Customer: Hey, we need a better way to get help with our computers.

MS: Okay, here's a guru. They'll help sell you a computer.

Customer: Uh, that's not quite what we asked for. What about after we buy the computer?

MS: They don't do that.

Real Story?

[qazwart]

Here's a question: Person goes into Best Buy. They may buy either a Mac or a PC. Mac runs Mac OSX. Will the gurus be persuading people not to buy a Mac? Doubt it because Best Buy makes a bundle off of Mac sales -- much more than on PC sales. Certainly, Best Buy didn't agree to allow the Windows Gurus to persuade their customers to switch from buying a high margin Macs to a low margin PCs.

So, that leaves PCs, and don't almost all PCs come with Vista? So, Windows Gurus aren't suppose to tell people not to buy Macs, and anyone who isn't buying a Mac is then buying a PC with Vista on it already. What is Microsoft paying these people $20/hour to do?

The answer seems to come from *another* story. HP is apparently working on a Linux-based OS that will be used on their next generation Windows machines. HP, has several reasons: First, they're unhappy with Microsoft with the way Microsoft forced the PC manufacturers to ram Vista down people's throats. Second, the Windows license is now the most expensive part in a PC. Get rid of Windows, and you can knock another $30 off the price. That's a big difference when PCs are hitting below the $300 mark. And finally, in an era of look alike PCs, a PC with a friendly non-Windows OS can distinguish itself from its rivals.

It's not that HP won't be selling Windows computers, it's that they'll start charging extra for Windows. In fact, we see this on the sub-notebook machines where Windows is an extra cost option. I bet that's what Microsoft is really worried about. The Guru's job is to convince the customers that paying the $30-$50 for the Windows Vista option is certainly worth it.

I made a prediction before that Microsoft would lower the cost of the Vista Home Basic license to $1 or even free, then charge people $100 to upgrade to Vista Premium (on-line only - no more CDs). That way, they can keep Linux off the PC since putting Windows Vista on the PC barely costs the manufacturer anything, and make some money on people buying the extra Vista Premium features. Since Vista Premium is on line only, there won't be any Vista Premium CDs being shared among neighbors. Plus, their other programs (like Microsoft Office) could still be sold to people even if they don't upgrade to Vista Premium.

I don't know if Microsoft is going to move in that direction, but their Windows monopoly is now in danger.

So that explains it!

[jvin248]

Walking through the PC section at Best Buy this morning on my way to pick up an extra HDD

There was a salesperson talking intently with a person asking about "Vista and MSOffice" and "what do those packages cost, Can my current computer run Vista or do I have to buy a new one?..."

So I asked while passing, "any pre-installed Linux machines yet?", "No...(worried glance at me)". I thought about teasing a bit more by asking if any machines came with Open Office - but moved along - no sense tormenting them too much. Must have been a Windows Guru (or maybe a Geek Squad person - had a black shirt not the standard blue one on - or a "Windows Guru").

I did see the eeePC on display! So maybe things are looking up.

Re:Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experienc

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it won't be the same. At a BB store you are immediately approached by a clueless slacker. In an Apple store you are ignored by a clueless slacker.

Hahahahaha

[Dan667]

The words Best Buy and Guru used in the same sentence. Oh, that is funny. Is this from the Onion?

Hope one of these guru's approches me

[codepunk]

I am sure he is not going to like what I have to say....

Mod Parent Up

[sorak]

I've had some sales experience and, yes, these gurus will most definitely be lightning rods for customer frustration...any customer frustration. It doesn't necessarily have to do with Windows Vista.

I had a guy tell me I was an f'ing idiot because I tried to sell him a warranty (AKA do my job) because his printer just broke (after 5 months, which our warranty would have covered). I wasn't pushy, but, man...that was just rude. I certainly didn't cause his $500 printer to crap out. It was nice when our manager kicked him out of the store and told the guy never to talk to his employees that way.

Some people just like treating other people like crap.

Why is everybody blaming this guy for what is probably a manufacturer's defect. So, some guy buys a printer and they go to Walmart or Circuit City, or where ever to take it out on a minimum wage employee because HP/Epson/whoever made a crappy product. I think the poster just proved his point by becoming a lightening rod, yet again.

So how do Best Buy employees feel about this??

[King_TJ]

Thankfully, I've never had to work for Best Buy myself. (I actually applied once, when I was out of work long enough and desperate - but they never called me back, and I found something far better not too long after that anyway.)

But IF I was working there, I think I'd be a little bothered by the fact that right alongside me was this Microsoft salesperson, hawking just ONE of our many products, and getting paid $20/hr. to do it!

How much is Best Buy paying the REST of the people doing sales over in the computer department, by comparison? I'm thinking about half that, right? And they have to actually ring up the sales, answer questions about ANYTHING the store stocks in that dept., try to push those awful "extended service plans" and who knows what else.

Plus, with Best Buy starting to partner more closely with Apple, selling iMacs and such - couldn't one of these people potentially be counter-productive to the Best Buy salesperson promoting a Mac to a new customer?

MS continuing to scam dumb people. No news here.

[JustNiz]

> 'The Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs. It is not to be an alternative tech support channel for Microsoft as this has no financial return beyond improved customer satisfaction,' Baker said. One reason: Windows Gurus could end up 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

His statement is so transparently ridiculous it makes me wonder how he thinks its even possible for someone to read that then go ahead and buy Vista. Unlike Apple geniusses, These MS gurus cannot be considered beneficial to customers in any way.

If Microsoft were actually concerned about customer satisfaction as he says, these gurus would also answer existing customers technical questions. He's clearly admitting these people are not actually technical gurus, they are sales droids that are there to wallpaper over vistas cracks with pre-programmed marketspeak, thats all. The fact he acknowledges they could become lighting rods underlines the implication that Vista really is a load of overhyped crap.

His statment clearly shows that Microsoft's strategy still has not changed. They only work hard on promoting some wallpaper-thin image of their products, rather than spend any time actually providing real help or support that people need. Once someone falls for the pitch and buys vista, MS are clearly leaving them out in the cold to struggle and eventually discover what thay have actually wasted their money on.

Serious reply to funny question

[smellsofbikes]

They're not trying to improve customer satisfaction by getting you to buy Vista. They're trying to convince you that it was a good purchase. There's an *enormous* difference between those, summed up in the phrase "buyer's remorse". If you'd like to read some interesting stuff about the psychology of purchasing decisions, read "The Paradox Of Choice" by Barry Schwartz. A company can do more for itself long-term through making people glad they chose something, than it can by just selling more stuff, because those people will A: buy again, and B: be more willing to convince other people to do the same thing they did, in part to defend to themselves their purchase decisions. People who are not convinced that they chose well will let other people know that; people who think they DID purchase wisely, especially if they were questioning the choice but were convinced by someone else, are nigh-evangelical in their willingness to let other people know why their purchase was a SUPER GOOD IDEA. People *hate* self-doubt and will do weird things to convince themselves that their choices were good.

Email who ??

[KingofSpades]

On the Application for Windows Guru page, I read "If you have any difficulties with this form, please email Jobs@mswindowsguru.com" I didn't know that Steve worked for Microsoft. Hilarious!

I give up

[hanshotfirst]

Are these the same Gurus who looked at me cross-eyed when I asked if they carried a USB MIDI interface? (This is after the first flunky on the floor pointed me to the "Mini USB" cables, and then took me to the more technical guys.)

I can feel my IQ drop every minute I'm in a Best Buy.

Re:Markets at work

[jDeepbeep]

The entire world continues to benefit from the fact that MS is a convicted monopolist.

The entire world? How so?

Websense blocks it.

[ticklemeozmo]

The Websense category "Phishing and Other Frauds" is filtered.

URL: http://msretaillive.com/job_locations.html

Local BB Mac Vs Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

My local BB has apple and mac. The best part was seeing OSX compared to a non aero PC. No competition. Icing on the cake was having the "mojave experiment" going on outside. Being a loyal Mac convert, i wanted to participate and then ask why the laptops inside weren't as pretty.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[Anonymous Coward]

Never applied for a job before?

The Medium is actually Two Messages

[Crash Culligan]

Just Some Guy: If Microsoft opened their own shops, I'm 99% sure they'd look and feel exactly like Best Buy already does.

Not necessarily. A retail space has two ways of conveying a message to you: directly, through the message they want you to see, and indirectly, through those little corners where the message isn't very tightly controlled at all.

Before Apple went big with its own stores, there was a time when Apple had their own ghettos corners oh, be honestâ" ghettos in CompUSA stores. They had only a little more of the charm of the rest of the store by dint of the occasional Apple-styled banners, and the fact that an Apple rep would come by periodically and clean up the machines that customers had (metaphorically) crapped on. It was not the best buying (ahem) experience, and I'd like to think Apple learned from that.

Interestingly, right across the street for a time there was another computer retailer: a Gateway store. I'd never gone in there, but I heard tell they had a country-western theme? Which in a computer store makes about as much sense as a McDonalds made up to look like a bike shop.

In the one case, the Apple Ghetto in CompUSA didn't present a very coherent message, but perhaps managed to impress enough. In the other case, the message may very well have been carefully controlled, but that didn't mean that it really made any sense.

The Apple Stores that opened hence have their own style, clean, controlled, and sensible from a certain effete perspective. The CompUSA in Glen Burnie went toes up a long time ago, and the building that held the Gateway store is now half FedEx/Kinkos and half mattress discounters.

I'm inclined to think that people will ignore the controlled message because deep down, they know it's marketing bullshit. They'll be a little more impressed if the message is controlled and makes sense, much more impressed if the company manages to apply sparkle everywhere (including customer service and after-purchase support), and most impressed if those corners where the company didn't manage to apply polish still manage to sparkle on their own.

That said, I would expect the Microsoft Store to be clean, have a solid message, and be arranged contextually like an Apple store rather than by product like Best Buy is. However, I would also expect it to be very high in visual clutter (mostly signs with multiple bullet points competing for customer attention), and where they forget to polish they will tank hard.

Change the title

[Anonymous Coward]

Best Buy + Windows Guru + Bill Gates + Jerry Seinfeld + Cripin Porter + Bougusky = Desperation

Re:Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experienc

[myz24]

Tripled? Can you provide examples?

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[mweather]

It's only standard for jobs that come with health/life insurance. I doubt the Best Buy Windows Guru has health coverage.

I use it but it sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical West or East Coast thinking, there are no stores in the Midwest for the Microsoft morons to work at.

Do they get to pass out churros?

[jmbauer]

If so, sign my ass up!

It's not like you can get a computer WITHOUT Vista

[qubezz]

In these big box stores.
"Sure, you can buy that laptop and install Linux on it. In fact, there are drivers for Linux that work much better without stupid drm, there is much better security without a useless 'popup box' all the time, you don't have your computer filled with bloated adware right out of the box, but instead filled with free applications to replace the ones you would need to buy. You still have to buy Vista with the laptop though, no refunds, you have no f**n choice, we're a monopoly beotch!!!"

Wow

[DanOrc451]

Since when did Microsoft's new official slogan become, "Hey, wow, we're almost kinda as cool as Apple, love us?"

Answer: When Vista was released.

Will they all be called...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Bob?

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[Just Some Guy]

None of this has anything to do with actual software. It has to do with image. Strung out felons tend to not help create a good image.

Yeah. Stoners are bad publicity.

Oh, that'll go over well...

[greg_barton]

The Guru role is to help sell Windows-based PCs. It is not to be an alternative tech support channel for Microsoft...

I can picture it now. Imagine the Guru talking in Mike Myers' voice.

Guru: Hello! I am the Vista Guru!
Customer: Great! Can you help me with...
Guru: Zip!
Customer: What? But I need hel...
Guru: Zip it!
Customer: Excuse me, what? Can't you...
Guru: Zip IT! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....with an IP IT!
Customer: Well, what can you do?
Guru: Buy this expensive Vista bauble, yes? It's SHINY.

It's okay to hate HP, too!

[FranTaylor]

They are indistinguishable from Microsoft in their contempt for their customers.

Old Joke

[onkelonkel]

Old Joke - What's the difference between a Car Salesman and a Computer Salesman?

The Car Salesman knows when he's lying to you.

Just my .o2

[Anonymous Coward]

Just my two cents here so no flamers please...

I used to work for Best Buy. I also am a former Microsoft and Apple 3rd party developer (memberships are expired at the moment) and I have almost 20 years of marketing experience. Most retailers are going to push their sales person to sell what makes them the most profit... period.

There's also a cultural bias against Apple or any other non-Microsoft product. If you ask about Apple at a retailer, you'll hear a condescending laugh then be told they're either junk, overpriced toys and can't do what you want. At least for Best Buy, extensive training goes into teaching sales people what makes the most profit and how to mitigate any dangerous questions about product reliability and security. Also, it's my opinion here, Best Buy employs a kind of psychological warfare with the customer to overcome any objectives and then push a service plan and stupid magazines (there's a good reason why I don't work or shop there anymore).

I seriously don't think having these guys in retailers will do any better than regular salespersons. The native retailer salespeople will have everything they need to sell the most profitable product. The Microsoft guys will be pushed aside if they try to sell something that doesn't fit the current retailers business plan... trust me, I know... I've pushed aside many an Epson, HP and Kodak rep. to allow for a salesperson to sell the business plan objectives. There's also no way to avoid the lightening rod effect as frustrated customers come back and look for that "manufacturer" representative. It's not going to be avoidable.

Now, apple understands the market better and has their own retail stores with tech support persons in-store. I'm guessing Microsoft would be more successful if they opened their own retail stores using Apple's for a rough model.

Now for full disclosure, I do own both platforms. I also believe that in most cases both can hold their own with just about any task and I use both platforms daily. However, I do tend to favor Apple for stability and security and they do look great on a desktop (why can't PC makers make an elegant machine these days?). now... where's my flame suit?

windows guru

[godrik]

You mean someone who understood that the only way to make windows work flawlessly is to draw pentagrams and to sacrifice chickens ?

Well, I can do that

Hi, I'd like some advice

[DrSkwid]

"Buy Vista."

Which OS is best for games

"Vista"

Should I try Linux

"Buy Vista"

My friends say Mac OS X is quite good and I should give it a try

"Buy Vista"

Is XP available

"Buy Vista:

What about an EeePC with XP?

"Buy a laptop with Vista"

This MSI Wind with Linux looks Okay

"Buy Vista"

From the Simpsons...

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the "OK boys, let's buy'em out". I foresee"OK boys, lets evangelize these customers."

The link to the application is a scam

[solidfusion]

While I don't believe any slashdotter would actually fill out the application, I thought it be wise to post that this site is a Scam. Both sites are registered by domainsbyproxy.com that masks the actual domain owner. Plus, as seen at these pages: http://t11a.com/services/ http://t11a.com/partners/ The website has been hacked.

As a Geek Squad Employee...

[Anonymous Coward]

...This pisses me off to no end. If I'm getting the right image from this, the "Windows Guru" will be paid roughly $41,000 a year as a base to go into Best Buy stores and "evangelize" Windows to people who are shopping. They will tell people how great [InsertMSProductHere] is, but NOT how to get it to work properly with the rest of the system?

Here's how I imagine this will play out. Customer comes into the store shopping for whatever, and the guru begins their sales pitch about how wonderful Microsoft is. Customer finally caves and goes along with what the guru is telling them. The customer WILL have problems because, let's face it, they're a Best Buy shopper. Since the guru provides no actual SUPPORT, it then falls upon the Geek Squad people to fix whatever problems the customer has. Since Geek Squad is not a free service, the customer becomes irate and takes it out on the poor sap at the counter because "someone who works in this store told me this would work and now you want me to pay MORE money to fix it?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

All of this combined with the fact that the employees in the store who actually have to deal with all of this make FAR LESS than the proposed guru salary (GS employees are hourly, mostly part-time, and unless they're a supervisor, won't make even $25,000 a year), and it will only add to the misery that Best Buy perpetrates upon its employees.

(Posting anonymously for obvious reasons)

Guru is another word for Shill

[Orion Blastar]

Apple Geniuses and Vista Gurus are both forms of a shill. Apple Geniuses shill for Apple, and Vista Gurus shill for Microsoft. They are paid money to actually promote that company's products and nothing else.

So they will automatically downplay Linux, AROS, ReactOS, and other alternatives to the products they are shilling for.

Microsoft already had Shills working at Best Buy named Geek Squad, but they failed at marketing and shilling and the only tech skills they have is booting up those MRI Boot CDs to remove viruses from a Windows system and almost get lost doing anything else. Yes they charge $300 to use a MRI Boot CD that uses command line malware scanners that update over their Ethernet network, and we real Geeks just boot into Safe Mode with Networking via F8 and use the same scanners, or create our own boot CD via BartPE, Reatogo, UBCD, or some other boot CD making with a mini version of Windows or Linux.

I had a tech support business from 1995 to 2000 that did a better job than Geek Squad ever could, but it is hard to beat an 18 year old with an MRI boot CD that works out of a consumer electronics store and calls themselves a Geek even if all they do is run a Boot CD and can't fix half the stuff I can fix. Because my company couldn't afford to advertise on TV or have our store inside a consumer electronics store or have those $300 to $500 rebates that the customer has to wait six months for anyway an by then a new better computer will be out.

My business supported Windows, Mac OS, Linux, AmigaOS, OS/2, BeOS, anything the customer wanted to use but couldn't advertise on TV or afford those rebates to be offered to the customers, so we eventually went out of business.

Re:Guru is another word for Shill

[DanJ_UK]

Apple Geniuses and Vista Gurus are both forms of a shill. Apple Geniuses shill for Apple, and Vista Gurus shill for Microsoft. They are paid money to actually promote that company's products and nothing else. So they will automatically downplay Linux, AROS, ReactOS, and other alternatives to the products they are shilling for.

I disagree entirely.

I can't speak for anyone else but having only recently switched to Apple products (6 months ago) after several ongoing years of 'Apple-hating' the several repeated occasions I've asked an in-store Apple 'Genius' for an unbiased opinion on one or more of Apple's hardware, or be it software products I've often been directed not to purchase from Apple, memory is a one example that immediately springs to mind.

Although most of these occasions have centred around hardware, I'm confident I'd receive the same unbiased, honest recommendation if Apple actually released software that wasn't, in my personal opinion since switching, superior to available rival alternatives.

My development environment, organisation and overall life, has (however cheesy it sounds) improved dramatically in recent months thanks to the quality and all round customer care I've received from Apple since migrating.

Re:Guru is another word for Shill

[DanJ_UK]

For the record having forgotten to say, I think it should be duly noted that since Apple's margins stem primarily from their hardware sales, the experience (regarding the memory) that I've mentioned is very much all the more significant.

To paraphrase the Alaska governer...

[panzitta]

A Windows Guru is kinda like an Apple Genius, except that you don't have any actual responsibilities.

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

This is convincing people like why masturbation is better than real sex. Only MS can do it

Countering Word-Of-Mouth

[kcburge]

How many "gurus" does it take to reverse the public opinion on Vista? Their money might be better spent trying to convince the family-computer-experts, developers, and IT personnel who warned about Vista in the first place. I told everyone who looked to me for such decisions to hold off on Vista, based on my research and discussions with experts I trusted.

I don't know if MS can hire enough "gurus" to counteract all the bad word-of-mouth.

I think a free 60-day trial would be a lot cheaper and ultimately more effective. I know I'd download it and try it out, even though I've been a Linux user for years.

I thought this would have been posted by now.

[Joe Snipe]

Hey Linux fanatics: why don't you go apply for this job and get paid to give people a fair and unbiased OS education?

Hell, why doesn't the EFF get in on this as well; they seem to have lost all ethics.

Genius

[bluefoxlucid]

Apple's philosophy: Provide the customer someone who will claim to be much smarter than them and thus show them to be inferior, rather than portray tech support as a "specialist" that's good at something you're not.

Now I can scream at someone from Microsoft

[AppleTwoGuru]

instead of trying to scream at Bill Gates. Maybe I will come into the store, and wack them over the head with my Commodore 64 -- YEEEAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

MS is afraid

[Anonymous Coward]

if their new "evangelists" actually give Vista support they will become "lightning rods" for consumer frustration? Just what do they think these people out there selling Vista are going to be when they refuse to give any help? Punching bags? Martyrs? Victims?

This just goes to show how far removed from reality MS is in the heights of their arrogance. They think they can continue to push rotten software down people's throats while refusing to actually give customer service at the same time.

It seems to me that any reasonably sane person would recognize that a strategy of avoiding giving customer service for a faulty product while pushing the same product at them is bound to fail spectacularly and create exactly the backlash MS thinks it is going to avoid.

What are they going to do? Have disgruntled Vista users arrested when they counter the "influence" of the MS "evangelists" in front of potential buyers? That will go over really well. To tell the truth I hope MS does do it. Maybe it will begin to wake the general public up to what a consumer-unfriendly behemoth MS really is.

I call shenanigans

[NullProg]

Why do you need a Windows Vista Guru to convince people to buy Vista when you have already sold a 140 million licenses?
http://www.crn.com/software/207402009

Is Microsoft lying again to the SEC and investors?

Enjoy,

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[Jerry Smith]

Apple Cork did, 8 years ago, for all new personnel (afaik). No one really was offended by it, as long as they didn't measure the alcohol-levels.
:)

hiring salespeople and comedians, ha-ha

[harvey the nerd]

This is more Microsoft refusal to stand behind defective software. Hire a comedian so may be the laughing drowns out the crying. Hire extra sales turkeys, don't shore up the brand by fixing previous mistakes.

My limited experience with Vista on a machine purchased several months after roll out was the worst I've seen since about Windows 2.0 ca 1990. Not even Windows ME hung and BSOD as bad as this did. If Microsoft wants people to quit bitching, ship upgrades that work for the original machines or offer a no-questions-asked downgrade to XP. Anything less is sop for a con artist marketing firm parading as a software company with baloney "certifications".

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[dedazo]

Welcome to Slashdot.

This is like Lion Time at the Coliseum

[Ralph Spoilsport]

AND in the left corner: Marcus Dweebius, a Windows fan since the age of ten, Marcus is a 23 year old virgin who was recently laid off from his IT job at GiantBankCorp, who moved his job to India, because the board of directors need to make their yacht payments, and the credit crisis is crimping their style.

AND...

in the Right corner: Kitty. Kitty's birthday is 31 July, a REAL LEO at heart, and she is completely pissed off at Microsoft Windows Vista, because it's a roiling piece of shit. Back at home, Kitty has two little cubs who are waiting for their lioness mom to come home with the information that will allow them to install a new video card, and 170 lbs of fresh fatty cold cuts for noshies.

WHO will emerge victorious? Marcus Dweebius or Kitty? Stay tuned to find... oh never mind. She just killed Marcus with a single swipe. Now she's chewing him a new butthole. Eeeew! And well - it looks like she found her cold cuts. That's all for today! tune in again next week when we have a fascist soccer mom go up against a major figure in federal politics.

RS

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[story645]

The reason for this is simple: Being willing to work as a Windows Vista evangelist without being under the influence of narcotics is a sure sign of dangerous mental illness.

$20 an hour or more, plus benefits? That's awesome for a job that doesn't seem to require much in the way of education or experience. I've never even used Vista and I'm tempted to apply 'cause it requires less effort and pays better than my on campus research/tutoring gigs.

Guru?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Hire Windows Gurus
2. ???
3. ???

The last step is usually Profit but I'm still trying to figure out where that comes into play in this instance.

Nice Try sucker!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in trying to price printers, and this guy comes up to me, and asks if Id seen Vista on a Laptop. I said 'No' ( of course I was telling the truth, who the hell would put Vista on a laptop!?!) so I ask him to show me how much free memory it has. ICRAMBA! 640M free? I have more than that on my 1GB XP machine. What do I get for that extra gig? and how about expanding the memory? Umm.. He didn't know what the max memory on the machine was ( Um, I knew it was 2GB already, and he was in for it). So I asked him, If I cant expect more than 640MB, then how can I do much usefull work?

"640MB should be enough for most anyone."
"They said that about 640k!."

Speechless...Absolutly went brain dead. Could not even get a consonant out of his mouth...

Ok, so while the dweeb is brain dead, I quickly launch Word, acrobat, and a broswer, and the machine positivly crawls on screen redraw...

Hope the dweep has a lot of valium at home.

like Jerry Seinfeld

[shis-ka-bob]

I'm just guessing that he is getting more like $20/second on the TV spots. What really sucks is that the $20/hr 'gurus' probably know more about Windows than Seifeld.

Tell them what?

[Krneki]

Since Vista sucks, what will this "gurus" tell them?

Does this mean...

[bujoojoo]

Apple Store Experience - Best Buy = Windows Guru?

Ask the Microsoft Guru!

[mlwmohawk]

I like to rip my DVDs to my hard disk so I can load them on my iPod, will Vista's DRM keep me from doing this?

I have a ton of music on my existing system, can I be sure vista will not let its DRM get in the way?

Can I get XP if Vista doesn't run y programs?

Can I get my money back if I don't want Vista and decide to use something else?

If I don't like Vista, and end up using something else, can I sell my copy of Vista if I want? If not, why not, I have the legal right of "first sale" who is Microsoft to take away my rights like that!

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[ConceptJunkie]

Well, the job certainly doesn't require you to know anything, because if you did, you couldn't sell Vista without lying.

Summary incorrect

[earlymon]

Windows Gurus could end up 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

Let me fix that....

Apple Geniuses have probably ended up as 'lightning rods for customers' frustrations with Vista.'"

Windows Gurus = Apple Genius?

[Anonymous Coward]

And now for a comment from two-word answer guy:
Q: Will the entire Windows Gurus plan be anywhere near as knowledgeable and helpful as a single Apple Genius?

A: Fuck no.

How To Scare Best Buy Sales Dolts Away:

[RexDevious]

I found an easy work around (effective on anyone working at Best Buy):

#1: Ask them a legitimate specific technical question, that doesn't have a yes or no answer.

Example
Me: "I'm looking for a Blue-Tooth headset. Which model here has the longest battery life?"
Them: "Those ones are black. Let me see if we have any blue ones in stock. The battery section is over there [pointing to a display of Duracells]" (Actual response)

#2: Ask them an illegitimate yes/no question:

Ex:
Me: "Ooo, I like this monitor. Does it run at 7200 RPMs?"
Them: "Uh... [looking at the card underneath it which is actually meant for one of the wireless mice that used to be stocked there] Yea, I think so. And if not, you can always bring it back in 30 days for one that does."

Seriously, sometimes I just feel like asking them "Am I at Best Buy?" just so they'd have *some* success during the week. But I'm almost afraid to ask anything more complex than "Who's a good boooy? Who's a gooood boooy???"

$20 says even then I won't get back "I'm a good boy!!!".

Any takers?

I applied

[MikeS2k]

Do you think I have a good chance of being accepted by Microsoft to improve cust^W consume^W shareholder experience?

--

I wish to apply for the job of Windows Vista Salesman
I have experience of the following Vista bugs:

The "Windows Mail" crash bug, when you assign a DUN connection in Windows Mail, delete it from Network Preferences, then return to the connections bug in Windows Mail.

The "Windows detected a problem with this connection. Click here to diagnose." immediately followed by "Windows could not find a problem with this connection", on having any DUN error. Even a U/P issue.

The more than 5 clicks it takes to get to any meaningful way of configuring TCP/IP.

The way that the "video desktop" crashes constantly.
The fact that the Ultimate edition differs in no meaningful way to the end user than Premium, other than that the box is black, and that the buyer has too much money.

The fact that you can still Ophcrack any Vista logon password in less than 5 minutes.

UAC... DRM.... the 10% network slowdown when playing an mp3...

On second thoughts, I would like to apply for the position of Beta Tester, for the next Microsoft OS, Windows 7.

I will accept $20 an hour as a salary, but I will require health benefits (I will need anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, and very strong sedatives. An on-faculty psychologist/priest would be a bonus.)

--

Seriously, I would work as a beta tester for Microsoft, and by the looks of it, they seriously need some. Those health benefits will still apply, though.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[John Meacham]

Sure you can

"With Vista, you will find yourself working harder than you ever have before"

"I cannot recommend vista too highly"

"I am pleased to say I am a former user of vista"

Re:Best Buy + Windows Guru = Apple Store Experienc

[DogDude]

I'm sorry. I just checked Apple's site. "Quintupled" is more accurate. Jesus people, just buy a Dell and paint it white, already,

I have a bold plan!

[Larryish]

Go to work there making Microsoft money, and then slip in references to Ubuntu when the manager isn't around.

Re:I have a bold plan!

[Zwicky]

"Why yes, this operating system is as Hardy as a Heron. It's Feisty, Gutsy and if I do say so, rather Dapper. You buntu also be aware that you will be purchasing the Canonical OS conducive for human beings getting things done. You will need SP1 though, but be Intrepid, I can give you it on CD at the time of purchase. Just load the live CD, click Install Ubuntu and follow the prompts. Oh yeah, don't worry about that. That's just its codename."

More proof that they missed the point.

[Tolkien]

It is not to be an alternative tech support channel for Microsoft as this has no financial return beyond improved customer satisfaction,

Re:Markets at work

[Weedlekin]

"MS continues to listen to customers"

Of course they do. And those customers are HP, Dell, and various other major OEMs who are telling them people don't want Vista, hence the fact that they're putting a sales team together instead one that could help _end-users_ solve some of the problems that have resulted in Vista ending up with such a dreadful reputation.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[IrquiM]

$20 an hour or more, plus benefits? That's awesome for a job that doesn't seem to require much in the way of education or experience.

Pays better to be on the dole in Norway!

Re:Sales Experience - Not possible in the EU

[joaobranco]

Here, if you want to sell some sort of electronic equipment to the end-user, YOU (the store) are responsible for providing 2 full years of warranty (if the supplier provides such warranty, you can fall back and use it, but if he doesn't, it is YOUR responsability). It at least prevents such scenes (and is a reason why some companies don't export to the EU).

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[mhall119]

No one really was offended by it, as long as they didn't measure the alcohol-levels. :)

They should have measured that, to see where a candidate fell relative to the Ballmer peak.

The computer is an appliance?

[javajeff]

At least, that is how the average consumer feels. It is the exact same thing to them as buying a TV. They feel they should be able to use it without the need to call for tech support. Therefore, they feel that tech support should be free. All other appliances require people to maybe read the manual if they get stuck, but never actually call someone. Why are computers different? The existing Vista consumers are going to ask these Gurus questions, because it is their right to receive free support for their problematic computers.

My "Guru" Experience was Positive

[Anonymous Coward]

I had the good fortune of running into a Windows Guru while shopping in Fry's. He was sharp, friendly, and actually quite helpful. I was attempting to integrate a PC with my newly built home theater. Because I was new at home theater I was exploring the xBox 360 when he approached and began asking questions. After figuring out where I was attempting to go he explained the differences between the xBox and the functions available in Media Center in Vista. I never felt pressured to buy anything as I might have with a typical store salesperson. He let me use his laptop to demo the product. He asked me to critique the experience on a MS website, and MS sent me a free stainless coffee mug. Go ahead and with your snobbery, but for me it was an extremely positive experience.

Re:The Application Form is a CIA intelligence jog

[ConceptJunkie]

Don't forget

"Vista will fully utilize the incredibly fast processor and vast amounts of memory that come with the modern computer."

or

"Vista will make repetitive strain injuries a thing of the past by requiring many lengthy breaks from work."

or

"Vista will improve your health because running around the room screaming at the top of your lungs is great aerobic exercise."

or

"Vista: Trading backwards compatibility for lack of speed and stability since 2007"

or perhaps the one that best reflects Microsoft's actual marketing:

"Vista: Ooooo! It's shiny!"

Stupid, stupid microsoft - STILL same philosophy

[unity100]

get a load of that :

It is not to be an alternative tech support channel for Microsoft as this has no financial return beyond improved customer satisfaction

because it brings no immediate financial returns, they are not only not doing it, but also openly saying that. basically "it just brings improved customer satisfaction, but we prefer fast hard cash to customer satisfaction, so we dont"

i dont know whether i should cry or laugh at the irony. microsoft, after all those years, STILL doesnt know the importance of customer satisfaction. not only that, but they are able to blatantly say that they dont care much for it.

so, in this state, do you think they can sell any vista to anyone ?