But then you're anthropomorphizing cows. Oh never mind, I see what you mean. I think your argument actually boils down to 'eating animals is morally damaging to humans, because we can empathize with animals.' It harms out empathy. But I like eating meat!
But we all know donuts belong in the realm of theoretical physics. I quote the great Stephen Hawking, who said, "Your theory of a donut shaped universe is intriguing Homer, I may have to steal it."
As a layman, I thought the whole "donut-shaped universe" thing was just a joke, until I read A brief History of Time and realized the genius of that gag. Was David X. Cohen a writer for The Simpsons back then?
I think he left right before that episode, "They Saved Lisa's Brain," written by Matt Selman.
I believe we were talking about Ubuntu Netbook Remix, not Ubuntu Big Honking Desktop Version. You could click on the link in the summary, google 'beagleboard,' or go to Youtube. That's what I did, took two minutes. I mean, here you are using the Internet, without really using the Internet.
A mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and a civil engineer are discussing God. They all agree He must be an engineer, but what kind? The mechanical engineer says, look at the human body, its skeleton, joints and musculature, mechanical genius! God must be a mechanical engineer. The electrical engineer says, Nonsense! Look at the brain, the nerves, God is an electrical engineer. The civil engineer says, "Nope. God is a civil engineer, who else would put the sewer outflow in the middle of the entertainment district?
But we all know donuts belong in the realm of theoretical physics. I quote the great Stephen Hawking, who said, "Your theory of a donut shaped universe is intriguing Homer, I may have to steal it."
I blame Obama more for this than I blame Bush for Katrina. Bush was just clueless. Obama is actively colluding with big oil over the interests of small businesses and citizens in my opinion. He proved he was capable of better with Haiti. Where are the Navy subs investigating the leak? Where are the Army Corps of Engineers? Why is the Coast Guard removing reporters from beaches?
Now you'll excuse me if I take a shot at your sig. I can't afford to agree with you too much in one post, you know. Ahem.
Dollars are votes. We the People hold power to bankrupt corporations out of existence. No such power exists over Gov't.
One dollar is one vote, so each does not get an equal say. We the People have the power to bankrupt particular corporations out of existence, but not the corporate system itself. And we the people have the power to change government utterly, to effectively kill it and replace it with its opposite if need be, to expand and contract it at will, using votes that cost us nothing. Signature demolished, I'd say.
* There was a leak in the hydraulic system that provides power to the shear rams. * The BOP had been modified in unexpected ways. The underwater control panel had been disconnected from the bore ram, and instead connected to a test ram. Drawings of the BOP provided by Transocean to BP do not correspond to the structure that is on the ocean bottom. * The BOP's shear ram is not powerful enough to cut through joints in the well pipe. It is only effective on the body of a drill pipe. Since 10% of the drill pipe is threaded joints, the BOP is expected to succeed on only 90% of the drill pipe. * Emergency control to the BOP may have failed in multiple ways. Cameron, the BOP's manufacturer, has stated that the explosion may have severed the communication link so the BOP never received the instruction to engage. Before the backup dead man's switch will engage, communications, power and hydraulic lines must all be severed; Cameron, has stated it is possible BOPs hydraulic lines were intact after the explosion, in which case the unit would not engage. Of the two control pods for the deadman switch, the one that has been inspected so far had a dead battery.
Obviously in your case "as far as I'm aware" isn't very far at all. You have been arguing a false position for multiple posts without bothering to check your facts in even the most cursory way.
Damn, I just thought about it more, and any refusal to buy from BP would be a good thing for them in the long run, the longer they sit on the oil, the more it is worth. If they don't have to pay for the consequences they will have the cash to ride out any short term loss. Right now, there are BP execs crunching those numbers in a profit/loss projections. What BP ultimately does or does not take responsibility for will be determined by the results.
What the fuck are you on about? Anyone watching that clip can see you are fucking lying, I don't have to say anything. It's a fake fucking title, it says something the clip doesn't even show!
I just know more of the facts of the situation than you, I suppose. I'm not blaming anyone without at least some facts at hand. Read some of my other posts in this thread, I'm not saying it all again.
Oh look, I can not come up with any real moral justification for killing animals if animals have the same type of consciousness that people do. No one can. But I don't believe they do. I don't believe that a free range cow, protected from predators other than man, led to food, given food and shelter, and killed quickly and painlessly regrets its lack of freedom. I don't think it fears or even comprehends its impending death. Yes, many cows in the wild would live longer, but many would die sooner, and more painfully.
Your argument boils down to "a cow's consciousness is similar enough to man's that they suffer from all the same things." I don't think that's true. I think they suffer from things we might not notice, while not suffering from a great many things we would.
Being penned up? Suffering. Being sick and weak and force fed? Suffering. Injury and painful death? Suffering. Going out to a pasture free from wolves, having clean water and a safe, warm, dry barn? Not so bad, actually. Suddenly ceasing to exist? Not anything. You might say, we are robbing the cows of their future. Do you suppose cows think about their future and reminisce about their past? They live in the moment. What are we taking from them?
In the end, though I can defend my position, I can not do so totally. I'll say it. Being vegetarian is better than being a carnivore. Is being a carnivore totally evil? No, not when done right. But of course this all applies only to sentient omnivores who have a choice, we can't very well go condemning wolves for being carnivores, can we?
Revoking BPs corporate charter, putting the board in jail, nationalizing their assets to keep the workers employed and the oil flowing should be enough. The stockholders will be out the money they invested. Arrest is a bit much, don't you think?
People don't love capitalism. They love contributing to their communities and being part of something. The free market, in it's proper place, helps people do that. But capitalism, also known as the institutionalized sin of usury, helps no one.
How so? Will consumers boycott BP? How would they even go about that? Do we have so much oil that someone with some to sell, even with a bad reputation, will find no buyers?
No, I don't hate people who actually take personal responsibility, I hate hypocrites. But it seems perhaps I misjudged you. Sorry.
As for getting stuck with the bill, you echo my sentiments exactly. I don't use that much oil, I won't pay that much of the cost. I may wish that any of this will come out of someone's bonus, but of course, it won't. Executives never seem to pay for their mistakes. It might be nice if it came out of Big Oil's extreme profits, but I'm not holding my breath on that one either. Expecting shareholders to take the hit is simply anti-capitalist, anti-free market and downright un-American. No, the best I can hope for is that the man at the pump pays.
The biggest priority is stopping the leak, and containing the spill. BP, Transocean, whoever, is dropping the ball on this too. The containment is haphazard and insufficient. Double booms are not being used, and there don't seem to be any catch basins in use, let alone machinery to drain the catch basins. This means they might as well not be laying booms at all.
What I would have BP, Transocean, whoever, do is actually let anyone else near their data, in order to let the most, best minds think of solutions. Instead they are stone walling in an attempt to hide their criminal negligence in pursuit of profits. But the facts are coming out and what we are finding out is, they have been lying all along.
Witness the new footage of their measly siphon pipe, at one leak. BP has been claiming the leak is 5,000 barrels a day. Yet now they claim to be recovering 5,000 barrels per day, from a pipe that is maybe sucking up 1/10 of the leak. From one leak. They've been lying all along. Watch the footage. You can use Google, right?
I have no more slack to cut the president I voted for, sorry. I'm a socialist. He's anything but. Why did he let the assholes who did this do damage control? He was so into Gulf drilling, why didn't he have a disaster plan in place? Why didn't we go in with Navy subs to look at the site? We sent Navy ships to Haiti. Why didn't we do the containment ourselves, or pay for someone else more competent and less interested in cover ups to do it, and stick BP or whoever with the bill? Why do we still have a $75 million cap on Big Oil's liabilities? Why did we let BP buy more toxic, less efficient dispersant from a sister company that shares board members with BP? Why did we take their word on an untested underwater application of dispersant?
And yes, Bush would be getting his ass handed to him over this. You know why I actually have less respect for Obama's handling of this? Because Bushy-boy was a dolt. Not quite a moron, and he was cunning, I'll give him that. But he didn't sit on his ass during Katrina because he was protecting anyone. I don't see any other excuse for Obama's behavior, he showed he was quite capable of being a leader during a disaster with Haiti. He is protecting corporate interests over those of small businesses and regular citizens, again.
BP execs knowingly pressured Transocean into doing something unsafe. Multiple times. And BP has a record of continual safety violations. Surviving workers are saying BP pressured them into claiming they were not harmed and did not see the explosion. This information is all out there now, and it will hopefully all come out in court.
I was talking free range, cruelty free animals, not factory farming, which is very cruel. And "predation" means eating another animal alive, or have you not actually watched any nature shows? We don't do that.
But I respect your opinions and it is likely that if I were a stronger man, I would still be vegan too. I just couldn't hack it.
I've never really trusted Obama, he's a corporate centrist. And I'm not advocating mob justice, I'm advocating that Obama get off his ass and get a Justice Department investigation going, we have enough evidence of wrongdoing to merit a serious, climb down their throats with a microscope sort of investigation.
They have very publically said that they do not intend to rely on this law.
And I have a bridge to sell you, my gullible friend. A public statement is not binding, and the public will not remember they even said it, years from now when the case actually goes to court.
Oh. My. God. You just can't stop, can you? Now it's Transocean's fault, not BPs. Transocean said to check the concrete, BP said "No way, that'll take too long!"
BP board members also sit on the board of the company that produces the more toxic, less effective dispersant that was used.
BP executives were on the rig and countermanding Transocean's directives. Not that Transocean is off the hook, they cut corners too. There is MORE than enough blame to go around, but that is NOT what you were doing. It looks to me like you were trying to absolve BP of all responsibility. Stakeholder much?
All the public wants is some accountability. BP is going to pay, Transocean is going to pay, Halliburton is going to pay (didn't know they were in on this little fiasco?) But the real question is, will the corporate executives who made the criminally negligent decisions be held accountable? I'm sure you want that as much as the rest of us, right? You want those who are responsible to be held accountable, right?
Everything I've read points to BP overriding Transocean's safety concerns. And BP stalling, and covering up, and hiding evidence their plans time to work and to give the oil time to disperse. It's much harder to find out who was at fault after months have passed.
We have another entity to blame as well here, namely the Federal Government and specifically Obama. He demonstrated his ability to move quickly and decisively in the face of natural disaster in Haiti. Yet he has been strangely absent when he hasn't been openly kowtowing to Big Oil. He has more than likely let BP off the with his delays and inaction. By the time any real investigation takes place, the evidence will be gone. And WE will be stuck with the bill, not whoever was at fault.
Slashdot Mirror
Huh, cool if it works. Probably very risky, don't you think?
I was referring, of course, to the perfectly spherical cow in a vacuum
A good argument, but I like this one better (see my response): http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1660316&cid=32304314
But then you're anthropomorphizing cows. Oh never mind, I see what you mean. I think your argument actually boils down to 'eating animals is morally damaging to humans, because we can empathize with animals.' It harms out empathy. But I like eating meat!
As a layman, I thought the whole "donut-shaped universe" thing was just a joke, until I read A brief History of Time and realized the genius of that gag. Was David X. Cohen a writer for The Simpsons back then?
I think he left right before that episode, "They Saved Lisa's Brain," written by Matt Selman.
So you are saying the Navy has bathyscapes that are capable of reaching 5,000 feet, exactly, where are they?
Dude, what guy are you talking about? What time in the clip? Maybe I'm just not seeing what your seeing, I never saw a black guy.
I believe we were talking about Ubuntu Netbook Remix, not Ubuntu Big Honking Desktop Version. You could click on the link in the summary, google 'beagleboard,' or go to Youtube. That's what I did, took two minutes. I mean, here you are using the Internet, without really using the Internet.
Yawn. Who are you trying to impress?
My coffee mug has a handle that's only attached at the top, therefore, my coffee mug is more cow-in-a-vacuum shaped than donut shaped.
A mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and a civil engineer are discussing God. They all agree He must be an engineer, but what kind? The mechanical engineer says, look at the human body, its skeleton, joints and musculature, mechanical genius! God must be a mechanical engineer. The electrical engineer says, Nonsense! Look at the brain, the nerves, God is an electrical engineer. The civil engineer says, "Nope. God is a civil engineer, who else would put the sewer outflow in the middle of the entertainment district?
But we all know donuts belong in the realm of theoretical physics. I quote the great Stephen Hawking, who said, "Your theory of a donut shaped universe is intriguing Homer, I may have to steal it."
I blame Obama more for this than I blame Bush for Katrina. Bush was just clueless. Obama is actively colluding with big oil over the interests of small businesses and citizens in my opinion. He proved he was capable of better with Haiti. Where are the Navy subs investigating the leak? Where are the Army Corps of Engineers? Why is the Coast Guard removing reporters from beaches?
Now you'll excuse me if I take a shot at your sig. I can't afford to agree with you too much in one post, you know. Ahem.
Dollars are votes. We the People hold power to bankrupt corporations out of existence. No such power exists over Gov't.
One dollar is one vote, so each does not get an equal say. We the People have the power to bankrupt particular corporations out of existence, but not the corporate system itself. And we the people have the power to change government utterly, to effectively kill it and replace it with its opposite if need be, to expand and contract it at will, using votes that cost us nothing. Signature demolished, I'd say.
* There was a leak in the hydraulic system that provides power to the shear rams.
* The BOP had been modified in unexpected ways. The underwater control panel had been disconnected from the bore ram, and instead connected to a test ram. Drawings of the BOP provided by Transocean to BP do not correspond to the structure that is on the ocean bottom.
* The BOP's shear ram is not powerful enough to cut through joints in the well pipe. It is only effective on the body of a drill pipe. Since 10% of the drill pipe is threaded joints, the BOP is expected to succeed on only 90% of the drill pipe.
* Emergency control to the BOP may have failed in multiple ways. Cameron, the BOP's manufacturer, has stated that the explosion may have severed the communication link so the BOP never received the instruction to engage. Before the backup dead man's switch will engage, communications, power and hydraulic lines must all be severed; Cameron, has stated it is possible BOPs hydraulic lines were intact after the explosion, in which case the unit would not engage. Of the two control pods for the deadman switch, the one that has been inspected so far had a dead battery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill#Investigation
Obviously in your case "as far as I'm aware" isn't very far at all. You have been arguing a false position for multiple posts without bothering to check your facts in even the most cursory way.
Damn, I just thought about it more, and any refusal to buy from BP would be a good thing for them in the long run, the longer they sit on the oil, the more it is worth. If they don't have to pay for the consequences they will have the cash to ride out any short term loss. Right now, there are BP execs crunching those numbers in a profit/loss projections. What BP ultimately does or does not take responsibility for will be determined by the results.
What the fuck are you on about? Anyone watching that clip can see you are fucking lying, I don't have to say anything. It's a fake fucking title, it says something the clip doesn't even show!
I just know more of the facts of the situation than you, I suppose. I'm not blaming anyone without at least some facts at hand. Read some of my other posts in this thread, I'm not saying it all again.
I was just being an asshole with that line anyhow, I do that sometimes.
Oh look, I can not come up with any real moral justification for killing animals if animals have the same type of consciousness that people do. No one can. But I don't believe they do. I don't believe that a free range cow, protected from predators other than man, led to food, given food and shelter, and killed quickly and painlessly regrets its lack of freedom. I don't think it fears or even comprehends its impending death. Yes, many cows in the wild would live longer, but many would die sooner, and more painfully.
Your argument boils down to "a cow's consciousness is similar enough to man's that they suffer from all the same things." I don't think that's true. I think they suffer from things we might not notice, while not suffering from a great many things we would.
Being penned up? Suffering. Being sick and weak and force fed? Suffering. Injury and painful death? Suffering. Going out to a pasture free from wolves, having clean water and a safe, warm, dry barn? Not so bad, actually. Suddenly ceasing to exist? Not anything. You might say, we are robbing the cows of their future. Do you suppose cows think about their future and reminisce about their past? They live in the moment. What are we taking from them?
In the end, though I can defend my position, I can not do so totally. I'll say it. Being vegetarian is better than being a carnivore. Is being a carnivore totally evil? No, not when done right. But of course this all applies only to sentient omnivores who have a choice, we can't very well go condemning wolves for being carnivores, can we?
Revoking BPs corporate charter, putting the board in jail, nationalizing their assets to keep the workers employed and the oil flowing should be enough. The stockholders will be out the money they invested. Arrest is a bit much, don't you think?
People don't love capitalism. They love contributing to their communities and being part of something. The free market, in it's proper place, helps people do that. But capitalism, also known as the institutionalized sin of usury, helps no one.
How so? Will consumers boycott BP? How would they even go about that? Do we have so much oil that someone with some to sell, even with a bad reputation, will find no buyers?
No, I don't hate people who actually take personal responsibility, I hate hypocrites. But it seems perhaps I misjudged you. Sorry.
As for getting stuck with the bill, you echo my sentiments exactly. I don't use that much oil, I won't pay that much of the cost. I may wish that any of this will come out of someone's bonus, but of course, it won't. Executives never seem to pay for their mistakes. It might be nice if it came out of Big Oil's extreme profits, but I'm not holding my breath on that one either. Expecting shareholders to take the hit is simply anti-capitalist, anti-free market and downright un-American. No, the best I can hope for is that the man at the pump pays.
The biggest priority is stopping the leak, and containing the spill. BP, Transocean, whoever, is dropping the ball on this too. The containment is haphazard and insufficient. Double booms are not being used, and there don't seem to be any catch basins in use, let alone machinery to drain the catch basins. This means they might as well not be laying booms at all.
What I would have BP, Transocean, whoever, do is actually let anyone else near their data, in order to let the most, best minds think of solutions. Instead they are stone walling in an attempt to hide their criminal negligence in pursuit of profits. But the facts are coming out and what we are finding out is, they have been lying all along.
Witness the new footage of their measly siphon pipe, at one leak. BP has been claiming the leak is 5,000 barrels a day. Yet now they claim to be recovering 5,000 barrels per day, from a pipe that is maybe sucking up 1/10 of the leak. From one leak. They've been lying all along. Watch the footage. You can use Google, right?
I have no more slack to cut the president I voted for, sorry. I'm a socialist. He's anything but. Why did he let the assholes who did this do damage control? He was so into Gulf drilling, why didn't he have a disaster plan in place? Why didn't we go in with Navy subs to look at the site? We sent Navy ships to Haiti. Why didn't we do the containment ourselves, or pay for someone else more competent and less interested in cover ups to do it, and stick BP or whoever with the bill? Why do we still have a $75 million cap on Big Oil's liabilities? Why did we let BP buy more toxic, less efficient dispersant from a sister company that shares board members with BP? Why did we take their word on an untested underwater application of dispersant?
And yes, Bush would be getting his ass handed to him over this. You know why I actually have less respect for Obama's handling of this? Because Bushy-boy was a dolt. Not quite a moron, and he was cunning, I'll give him that. But he didn't sit on his ass during Katrina because he was protecting anyone. I don't see any other excuse for Obama's behavior, he showed he was quite capable of being a leader during a disaster with Haiti. He is protecting corporate interests over those of small businesses and regular citizens, again.
BP execs knowingly pressured Transocean into doing something unsafe. Multiple times. And BP has a record of continual safety violations. Surviving workers are saying BP pressured them into claiming they were not harmed and did not see the explosion. This information is all out there now, and it will hopefully all come out in court.
You may want to look at the wikipedia page on the disaster, it is very well referenced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
I was talking free range, cruelty free animals, not factory farming, which is very cruel. And "predation" means eating another animal alive, or have you not actually watched any nature shows? We don't do that.
But I respect your opinions and it is likely that if I were a stronger man, I would still be vegan too. I just couldn't hack it.
I've never really trusted Obama, he's a corporate centrist. And I'm not advocating mob justice, I'm advocating that Obama get off his ass and get a Justice Department investigation going, we have enough evidence of wrongdoing to merit a serious, climb down their throats with a microscope sort of investigation.
They have very publically said that they do not intend to rely on this law.
And I have a bridge to sell you, my gullible friend. A public statement is not binding, and the public will not remember they even said it, years from now when the case actually goes to court.
Oh. My. God. You just can't stop, can you? Now it's Transocean's fault, not BPs. Transocean said to check the concrete, BP said "No way, that'll take too long!"
BP board members also sit on the board of the company that produces the more toxic, less effective dispersant that was used.
BP executives were on the rig and countermanding Transocean's directives. Not that Transocean is off the hook, they cut corners too. There is MORE than enough blame to go around, but that is NOT what you were doing. It looks to me like you were trying to absolve BP of all responsibility. Stakeholder much?
All the public wants is some accountability. BP is going to pay, Transocean is going to pay, Halliburton is going to pay (didn't know they were in on this little fiasco?) But the real question is, will the corporate executives who made the criminally negligent decisions be held accountable? I'm sure you want that as much as the rest of us, right? You want those who are responsible to be held accountable, right?
Everything I've read points to BP overriding Transocean's safety concerns. And BP stalling, and covering up, and hiding evidence their plans time to work and to give the oil time to disperse. It's much harder to find out who was at fault after months have passed.
We have another entity to blame as well here, namely the Federal Government and specifically Obama. He demonstrated his ability to move quickly and decisively in the face of natural disaster in Haiti. Yet he has been strangely absent when he hasn't been openly kowtowing to Big Oil. He has more than likely let BP off the with his delays and inaction. By the time any real investigation takes place, the evidence will be gone. And WE will be stuck with the bill, not whoever was at fault.