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Installing Linux On ARM-Based Netbooks?

An anonymous reader writes "I am sure that many other Slashdotters have noticed an increase in ARM-based netbooks over the past several months. For example, the Augen E-Go. It is a widely touted theory that it is impossible to install Linux on one of these notebooks, replacing the commonly installed Windows CE operating system. The sub-$100 netbooks carry decent specs, including 533MHz ARM processor; 128MB DDR RAM; and a 2GB Flash drive, as well as most expected netbook components (USB, Wi-Fi, etc.). I find it hard to believe that a computer with these specs is impossible to hack and install Linux to, but Google searches have been largely unsuccessful in finding proper information. Do any Slashdot readers have experience in installing ARM Linux distros to these cheap netbooks like this? If so, what distros do they recommend?" (In particular, I wonder if anyone can comment on Ubuntu on ARM.)

179 comments

  1. This might be useful by palegray.net · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:This might be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Debian GNU/Linux on ARM [debian.org]

      Indeed. I wouldn't recommend Ubuntu for these simply because it's designed for typical desktop machines with gigs of memory, and all the "pretty" is no good when all you've got is 128MB. But Debian with an appropriately lightweight window manager should be up to it.

    2. Re:This might be useful by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

      And if all else fails, you can always try here. Only problem you'll have then might be the drivers, although in that case there still may be help for you.

      --
      Qxe4
    3. Re:This might be useful by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wouldn't recommend Ubuntu...

      If it's good enough for the Beagleboard, it's good enough for a netbook. Also check Youtube for live demos.

    4. Re:This might be useful by CAIMLAS · · Score: 4, Informative

      Maybe; maybe not.

      Back in the day (ie, when the MobilePro 780 and similar "netbooks" were about and popular with Linux hackers - maybe 8-9 years ago), there were some non-trivial limitations to booting Linux or a BSD on the devices.

      The problem was that there was no way to actually boot Linux natively without chainloading from within CE. Sure, the hardware worked, but the CE ROM address was hardcoded within the "BIOS", and there was no way to circumvent it.

      As a result, booting was/is a 5-minute (manual) process due to CE's boot. It's highly cumbersome.

      Additionally (and possibly somewhat related), I noticed that around 2004 or so, all of the "mobile computing" or "Borg-like computing" project pages, targeted products, and the like just sort of disappeared. Stuff like the "matchbox PC" from Stanford, twiddler keyboards (think that's what they called them), IR (etc.) keyboards for Palm, et al, and misc. other peripherals became difficult to find. No new products were coming to market in that segment.

      Cool project pages where people had some interesting software work for mobile computing (including novel input/output devices) just kind of stopped being updated. Kernel porting and hardware support projects (eg. Linux on the MobilePro 780/880) were abandoned. I don't get it, but I'm going to have to guess that emergence of the first widely accessible smartphones distracted these adventurous types, or the hackable geek-preferred hardware simply dried up. It's really too bad. (Maybe the economy or impending adulthood had somethign to do with it, too?)

      That said, I have good news and bad news: the good news is that it looks like the "embedded" computer with a keyboard is coming back (See: Viliv S7). Unfortunately, I also suspect that x86 Intel hardware will dominate the market instead of the "cooler" ARM hardware (OMG, Mooreland is impressive). We'll see how much that matters, but I hope "not very" - and we're able to have our cake and eat it too, despite (because of?) the Intel badging.

      My hope (and guess) is that we'll have decently powerful MeeGo/Moblin/Maemo powered cell phones at a reasonable price within two years or so - whether that's what the vendor shipped on them or not.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    5. Re:This might be useful by sortius_nod · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have to agree. I've had experience installing Linux on ARM and other "exotic" systems, they all seem to be very picky about what systems will work and what won't. You will have to boot into CE just to get it to load, and it will run like a dog.

      Drivers will be your biggest hurdle if you can actually get it to run, as between models they seem to change up hardware continually.

      I'd pretty much drop the idea unless you want to build it from scratch or input man hours into helping a dying ARM Linux project.

    6. Re:This might be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And depending on your tastes, try here as well http://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-32.html?sid=16d61d6cb3ce0b1671e35047bcf4f0b7 . Plenty of us have done gentoo installs on ARM/MIPS devices, and even if you go with debian you could still ask for some help here.

      Only posted AC because the login page won't work from my desk at work here :/

    7. Re:This might be useful by owlman17 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. I've resurrected several old (Win95/98 era) PCs around the house with LFS. Only downside is you'd be compiling for dozens of hours, if not days on those rigs. Of course, you could always cross-compile from a modern PC.

    8. Re:This might be useful by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Informative

      Get a Z2. It will cost 50 bucks and give you a working laptop that fits in your hand.

    9. Re:This might be useful by causality · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if all else fails, you can always try here. Only problem you'll have then might be the drivers, although in that case there still may be help for you.

      I have been using Gentoo (and love it) for several years now. I have not actually tried LFS although I am familiar with its basic concepts. Can you advise why you would prefer LFS over Gentoo? It seems you'd be giving up the ease of long-term administration that Portage offers, and so far as I know Gentoo does support the ARM platform.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    10. Re:This might be useful by imp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Back in the day, the reason that the MobilePro 780 (and friends) had severe limitations running Linux/BSD was due to the design of the hardware. WinCE was installed into mask programmable ROMs. This meant that it was impossible to replace the code at the locations the processors vectored to when doing a reset. This meant that deep sleep was impossible.

      These days, the OS is held in flash memory, and can be replaced more easily. Most of the systems I've played with it has been possible to replace things. One big issue, however, is that the WinCE boot loader has a different interface to the kernel hand-off than uboot or redboot. This can be replaced, but can be harder because of protected boot blocks.... I've not reflashed the latest

    11. Re:This might be useful by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      I'm having trouble finding it. Can someone link me please?

    12. Re:This might be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    13. Re:This might be useful by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Looking at the link, it appears that this is just a text message device. It doesn't even have a browser.

    14. Re:This might be useful by cynyr · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    15. Re:This might be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      [quote]If it's good enough for the Beagleboard, it's good enough for a netbook. Also check Youtube for live demos.[/quote]
      OK, let's put it this way: I just tried to install 10.04 on a 400MHz K6 with 160MB of RAM (and plenty of swap) and when it tried to boot the install, the only thing that appeared was a message that said the OOM killer had taken out the system logger.

      Ubuntu is not a low-memory distribution.

    16. Re:This might be useful by udippel · · Score: 1

      Since you post AC, I can't give you mod points.
      But your observation is fine, and important. This is a serious bug: One must not be able to install a distro into what cannot boot up.
      File this bug for all of us, please!

    17. Re:This might be useful by the_humeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      See the wikipage:

      processor: xscale - 319 MHz
      memory: 32 MB
      Also has wifi.

      And it can run Debian!

    18. Re:This might be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used LFS for about a year before switching to Gentoo, and I've been happily running Gentoo since (~6 years).

      Running LFS gave me a better sense of how my system was operating, and allowed me even more control than Gentoo's USE flags; however, the expense of having to manage dependencies myself, track software updates, find appropriate patches, etc. ate up enough of my time that I had to switch to a system that was more manageable.

    19. Re:This might be useful by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      And if you want a really lean&mean Linux you can select BusyBox instead of building each command individually.

      For GUI - a stripped down X server with FVWM2 or BlackBox as window manager.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    20. Re:This might be useful by spun · · Score: 4, Informative

      I believe we were talking about Ubuntu Netbook Remix, not Ubuntu Big Honking Desktop Version. You could click on the link in the summary, google 'beagleboard,' or go to Youtube. That's what I did, took two minutes. I mean, here you are using the Internet, without really using the Internet.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    21. Re:This might be useful by BikeHelmet · · Score: 4, Informative

      Debian is a possibility, but Ubuntu won't work. Ubuntu has been updated to a newer arm instruction set than the one used in a lot of these netbooks.

      The problem with these things is, unlike x86, ARM has no BIOS. Your kernel/image has to be customized to work with all the chips that particular netbook has. This would be easier if they all had the same CPUs/SoCs, but they all vary quite a bit.

      I've seen vt8500 netbooks, wm8505's, Samsung SC2410's, 7802's, cheap x86-i386 knockoffs, and MIPS based netbooks. None use the same boot loaders (!), and few have the same instruction sets. (!) Those that do do not have the same LCD controllers or other components, and usually all drivers are closed source. (if available at all)

      There are some attempts to get linux on them... here's a few:

      http://s0.blackmage.co.uk/~nextvolume/via_arm/index.php (some luck, using android kernels mostly)
      http://3mx.taita.co.uk/ (some luck)
      http://mininetbooks.your-board.com/ (no luck yet)

      If you've got one and want to chat, join the IRC on freenode.net, channel #easypc

      Most of the hackers and developers there have different kinds of netbooks, and only one each, but pooling knowledge has been handy. Apparently vt8500/wm8505 netbooks usually have a read-only card reader that needs to be soldered to be fixed. My Anyka 7802 netbook ($58 shipped!) doesn't have this problem, but it has no drivers available. Not even Android runs on it.

      There's a dozen or so people in the channel, so if you've got questions (or maybe answers), join in. Note: We're all in different timezones. Responses can take hours, or if you're lucky minutes.

    22. Re:This might be useful by RichiH · · Score: 2

      here you are using the Internet, without really using the Internet.

      I need to remember that one.

    23. Re:This might be useful by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Should use internet "yes" or use internet "no". udippel use internet "guess so".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    24. Re:This might be useful by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Gentoo is a pretty poor choice for old hardware, because it's so slow compiling everything.

    25. Re:This might be useful by mugurel · · Score: 1

      I believe we were talking about Ubuntu Netbook Remix, not Ubuntu Big Honking Desktop Version.

      If we are still talking about the Beagleboard: I've had my hands on one that had a full Ubuntu installed. Not particularly fast, but definitely workable.

    26. Re:This might be useful by quintus_horatius · · Score: 1

      Depending on the server's job, a moderately long wait generally isn't a problem unless you feel that you need to watch the compiler messages go by. I have a pentium pro with 128 megs of ram running a file server (no X); to update the machine I start an emerge inside a screen session and disconnect. Even for heavy updates it's done within a few hours.

      With a little tweaking Gentoo can be a surprisingly trim installation. And if speed of compiling really is an issue then you can use distcc to distribute the load or offload the compile to another box entirely.

    27. Re:This might be useful by causality · · Score: 1

      Gentoo is a pretty poor choice for old hardware, because it's so slow compiling everything.

      Which is completely irrelevant because LFS is also a source-based distribution. Please be familiar with what you're commenting on.

      To reiterate: you compile your software for both Gentoo and LFS. One has a package manager, the other doesn't. That's the main difference between them.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    28. Re:This might be useful by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Okay, to generalise it, "source-based distros are a pretty poor choice for old hardware". Unless as the other poster said you use distcc or roll the packages on a more powerful machine.

    29. Re:This might be useful by causality · · Score: 1

      Depending on the server's job, a moderately long wait generally isn't a problem unless you feel that you need to watch the compiler messages go by. I have a pentium pro with 128 megs of ram running a file server (no X); to update the machine I start an emerge inside a screen session and disconnect. Even for heavy updates it's done within a few hours.

      With a little tweaking Gentoo can be a surprisingly trim installation. And if speed of compiling really is an issue then you can use distcc to distribute the load or offload the compile to another box entirely.

      It's just rather trendy to complain about compile times whenever Gentoo is mentioned. Like marching in lockstep, if you say the magic word "Gentoo" somebody will whine about compilation times. Because of its predictability, I regard it as noise rather than signal unless other errors were made in the post. In a way it's a convenience, as you normally have to listen to someone for quite a while before you can ascertain whether they have anything worthwhile and non-redundant to say.

      Never does it occur to these folks that if you care that much about having to do your own compiles, it's because you are not in Gentoo's target audience and should be using one of the many binary distros. That, or it's a religious issue with them in the sense that because they hate compilation, you should too (in their minds).

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    30. Re:This might be useful by Yfrwlf · · Score: 1

      I find your post an excellent reason to say "up yours ARM". A lack of standards means a lack of freedom, and ARM sounds way too unstable to be usable.

      Standards (and thus competition, interoperability, and freedom) need to come first.

      --
      Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
    31. Re:This might be useful by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      It's not really that bad. If you look at x86, there's a dozen available bootloaders, multiple kinds of BIOS's - even things like EFI...

      It's just that ARM CPUs remain relevant longer than x86 designs, because their target market isn't the bleeding edge. A simple but older ARM CPU can be sold cheaper - perhaps even for a few dollars - and might have enough processing power to do fine in a DVD player or other embedded device. Standardized boot loaders weren't important for this market, but now with ARM-based netbooks flooding eBay, and every phone in existence being powered by ARM, they're starting to be.

      Keep in mind that while current ARM fragmentation may not equal user freedom, ARM is providing freedom to the companies that fab processors, and for developers there's the potential to port just about anything to ARM instruction sets.

      Three companies basically have x86 locked down, and nobody else can join the market. It's quite standardized for the user, but from a certain perspective there is no freedom here.

    32. Re:This might be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean that ARM Linux is dying, or just the projects for these devices?

      As such, the ARM Linux project is still actively developed with many firms and people still working on it.

    33. Re:This might be useful by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      Meh, it's no different from software vendors trying to figure out the differences between each Linux distro.

      Standards there would probably help even more people.

  2. Or.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    1. Re:Or.... by EkriirkE · · Score: 1

      I second this. I'm running it on my BeagleBoard.org

      --
      from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
      to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
    2. Re:Or.... by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Plus MeeGo is supposed to be meant for devices like these...eventually.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  3. Android by lethalp1mpslapper · · Score: 1

    Sounds like they are good candidates for Android IMHO.

    1. Re:Android by sznupi · · Score: 1

      All things considered, those are mostly normal laptops. Android is nowhere near optimised for that usage scanario.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    2. Re:Android by lethalp1mpslapper · · Score: 1

      O RLY? Not to mention a few other arm based netbooks with android found via a quick google search.

    3. Re:Android by sznupi · · Score: 1

      And those show exactly that Android is hardly optimised for them. Read their reviews.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  4. Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Debian GNU/Linux on ARM

    Isn't it amazing what one can find with a few seconds of doing a Google search?

    I know it doesn't let you say "hey, I submitted a Slashdot story, yay for me!" but it does solve the problem a lot faster, plus it allows you a chance to be independent and forego unnecessary hand-holding, like having other people do your Google search for you because "type in the keywords you want to search for" is too hard for you and you don't see that as a problem.

    1. Re:Amazing! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yet, that does not actually solve the problem. If you think it does, you don't understand the problem.

      These devices only have 128M of RAM. That's not much: you won't be running X terribly well, nevermind a modern desktop. And the available packages for 'lightweight' stuff is woefully unequipped for something like this.

      What the OP really should be looking at is MeeGo/Moblin or Maemo - though with only 128M of RAM, they might be a bit under powered for even that.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    2. Re:Amazing! by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps. But consider that if the user hadn't submitted the story there would have been other effects lost. For instance, by reading this article I found out about the E-Go, which I'd never heard of before. I also found out about Angstrom for the ARM architecture.

      If we all kept as quiet as you appear to want then the spread of ideas and information might happen at a much slower pace.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    3. Re:Amazing! by Larryish · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Debian with IceWM was perfectly usable on a p200 with 64 megs of RAM back in the late 90's, it should do very well on an arm533 with 128 megs of RAM.

    4. Re:Amazing! by CityZen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mod parent up. The biggest limitation is the amount of RAM. Sure, 128MB may be fine for certain limited applications, but it'll be the bottleneck for any decent web browsing or any kind of multitasking. I think 256MB may be the bare minimum for comfortable web browsing, mostly based on the fact that any device I've used with only 128MB seemed to just fall a bit short of being really usable. Perhaps someone with a 192MB device (T-Mobile G1?) can chime in with their experience.

    5. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i have an old hp with only 128mb, installed debian, xfce desktop, and serving rails stuff.
      google for the always innovating touchbook, has better specs but still arm based. had a deb distro, and other ones. If they can pull it, it's only a matter of supported hardware. Like x86 :D

    6. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My laptop has 128MB of ram, it runs X w/ XFCE4 just fine, you need to do a stripped down, bare minimum install however. (I'm not aware of any binary distros that offer this.)

      I would recommend compiling it on a different machine with a cross compiler however, it would be downright painful to compile X on this.

    7. Re:Amazing! by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      You can do this with Debian. You do a minimal install, and then add the packages you need after that. It's more difficult than a default desktop installation because you need to know what is required rather than have Debian make the choices for you, but it is very possible.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    8. Re:Amazing! by Animal+Farm+Pig · · Score: 1

      I used to run a minimal Debian install with OpenBox + fbpanel for the desktop. By not running non-essential services and careful software selection, total memory usage after booting into a GUI was only 20 MB.

    9. Re:Amazing! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Should" work?

      Yeah, I've got a MobilePro 780 - it has 32MB RAM; I've got X running on it with ion3 under NetBSD. NetBSD 2.0. It barely runs - and this is an old TinyX (nanox? I can't recall) X server.

      I had a P133 with 16MB of RAM, too. That ran icewm well.

      The problem is that this isn't 1997, and X implementations are significantly bloated these days compared to back then. There have been a lot of changes - many have which have been acceptable improvements (memory use for performance improvements, support, etc.). Even the 'tiny' X implementations have this problem.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    10. Re:Amazing! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I'm a Debian guy, but I should note: you can do this on RedHat/CentOS, too - though the 'minimal install' has grown substantially in recent years.

      I really wish the 'minimal install' would not include such 'necessities' like snmpd and a mail daemon. I neither need nor want those security-issue packages on many installs (or want an alternative) and they're not appreciated. (BSDs are particularly prone to this nonsense. Sendmail and bind? Seriously? Can I get the machine pre-rooted?)

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    11. Re:Amazing! by Peach+Rings · · Score: 1

      Maybe if you used a browser that just renders HTML instead of running a Javascript interpreter (mega bloat), 15 addons, and an XUL based UI then you wouldn't have trouble rendering a web page with 128MB of memory.. browsers worked fine back when 64MB was decent. Install uzbl or netsurf or something.

    12. Re:Amazing! by CronoCloud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It comes from the "ZOMG, you want to run Linux, therefore you want to run a server/are a sysadmin/are a programmer" mindset. Of course, if they didn't include Apache, sendmail, bind, etc by default, you'd have all those programmers/sysadmins saying how Distro-foo is dumbed down for the masses.

    13. Re:Amazing! by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Take it from someone who admins RedHat/Centos boxes for a living, install debian instead.

    14. Re:Amazing! by slartibartfastatp · · Score: 1

      The first time I installed linux in my life, it was a 8mb 486 66MHz ( I even managed to install it in a 4mb 386 sx 25MHz - but no X as it got a CGA card) However, it took forever to run mozilla... or it was the 14,400 bps modem? =)

      --
      -- --
    15. Re:Amazing! by slartibartfastatp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, then you'll be stuck on static pages, and will be impossible to render and navigate through "modern" pages.

      --
      -- --
    16. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Perhaps. But consider that if the user hadn't submitted the story there would have been other effects lost. For instance, by reading this article I found out about the E-Go, which I'd never heard of before. I also found out about Angstrom for the ARM architecture.

      If we all kept as quiet as you appear to want then the spread of ideas and information might happen at a much slower pace.

      I am the AC who wrote that post that you replied to.

      Thank you for taking the time to say that. Sometimes people say things that makes me reconsider my position and you Sir did me that favor today. I was hasty and didn't think about what you might call the positive externalities. Still, I think having independence and being able to find your own answers is a very important skill. It is something that separates the helpless and needlessly dependent sheep from those who have some guts and are willing to put effort into a thing before it crosses their minds to seek help. I'd rather the Ask Slashdot be more like "I did research on this topic and I found solutions X, Y, and Z but all of them involve various trade-offs. What would you the community do if faced with the same situation?"

      I think that's reasonable and it shows that the inquirer is serious enough to have at least tried. Maybe they found the answers and maybe they didn't but either way it gets the community involved in a more meaningful discussion, rather than so many one-liner posts containing a link or saying obvious things like "full-blown X with a desktop environment requires more memory than that device has."

      Thank you again though for providing me with real, non-inflammatory constructive feedback. It makes quite a difference. Perhaps I am too disenchanted with the sheeple who are so convinced of their own helplessness and so convinced of their inability to educate themselves using the finest information network that has ever appeared in all of history (the Internet) that these things might as well be true even though they are false. I don't know which is more worthy of blame, the public schools that teach (train) them to be this way or the people themselves for failing to question it and failing to push their own boundaries and see for themselves how real they are. Still, I should be more constructive about how I point this out and you did well by making that clear.

    17. Re:Amazing! by sznupi · · Score: 1

      MeeGo & Qt (on which MeeGo UI is being built upon) to the rescue, eventually? Qt Embedded can run without X, via QWS. Maybe there won't be much of a problem with having a MeeGo variant which gets rid of X (hence also compatibility with Moblin / non-Qt software...)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    18. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "should" is a weasel-word having no place in specs or answers requiring specific information.

    19. Re:Amazing! by Larryish · · Score: 1

      Older versions of Debian are still available.

      At least, they SHOULD be.

      SHOULD SHOULD SHOULD.

      There, I said it.

    20. Re:Amazing! by MaxToTheMax · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've got SeaMonkey running just fine (if a bit slowly) on almost anything besides Flash content. This is on PuppyLinux 4.0, on a Pentium 1 with 64 Mib of RAM (2 used up by integrated graphics.) Although this is an older version of SeaMonkey from before it used XUL.

    21. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I ran Debian lenny on a laptop with 32MB of RAM, about 10MB used to get X11 running, if I remember correctly. It didn't take that much tweaking (it wasn't a straightforward install, obviously). Lenny is the current stable, btw, this was about a year and a half ago.

        Maemo runs on 128MB well enough, but one really has to cut down on the multitasking, old HDDs are a problem with this, SSDs not so much.

    22. Re:Amazing! by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is where one actually picks up these "sub $100" netbooks, because every time I try to find one to actually purchase it is "coming soon" or delayed. Hell I wouldn't give a shit what OS it runs if you can pick one up for $100 or less and it has Wifi.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    23. Re:Amazing! by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1

      I like your explicit definition of what you'd like to see Ask Slashdot be more like.

      And wow, a civil exchange on Slashdot. I think I feel a little dizzy. :-)

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    24. Re:Amazing! by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2, Funny

      "should" is a weasel-word having no place in specs...

      Evidently you've not read too many specifications, then, because it is absolutely nothing of the sort.

      I think you'll find many, many specs not only use "should", "may", and other such words, they actually go to some lengths to provide precise (and useful) definitions for them before doing so.

      (For those of you playing along at home: I've noticed that use of the term "weasel-word" is usually a cover for "I can't be arsed to do my homework, so I'll just parrot something I read on Wikipedia".)

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    25. Re:Amazing! by pwizard2 · · Score: 1

      If you need ultra-lightweight browsing and just can't stomach Lynx (or elinks), I've had success with Dillo. It supports basic HTML (text and images) and CSS1. If you can't get it in your distro's package manager, Dillo is easy to compile and doesn't require anything special. (simple ./configure && make && make install should do the trick)

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    26. Re:Amazing! by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      The issue ( Icould be full of it so feel free to correct me) is that the glibc libraries that link the code are becoming more and more bloated as the developers have more ram. The same application compiled today would take many times more ram than it would be with old libc gcc 2.95. This is why the tiny nanox is very bloated when the binary is compiled with gcc 4.x.

      Isn't a lite version of glibc for the XO laptop available? Maybe some netbook distros should be compiled agaisnt those libraries instead to reduce bloat.

    27. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... you could always try a SlackWare 3.0, 3.2, 3.4 or 3.6 install.... shouldn't be too hard to find. SUNet.se should have it, for example ;)

      I ran Slack3.2 ona 386 with 8(!)MB RAM..... X could also run, albeit with a 1MB SVGA and only the EISA slot for gfx, it was veeeeeeery slow....

      I bet it'ld FLY on the aforementioned ARM though.

    28. Re:Amazing! by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      ***Well, then you'll be stuck on static pages, and will be impossible to render and navigate through "modern" pages.***

      And that would be bad -- why? Speaking for myself, I'm a bit hazy why resource hungry modern web pages that more often than not don't render correctly in any browser are desirable.

      BTW, I'm posting this using the OffByOne browser in Windows 98 running under QEMU using 128mb of RAM. I imagine it would run just as well in 64mb -- maybe less. Might work in Windows 95. Maybe I'll try that some day.

      One of my fantasies is that the entire damn web will collapse under the burden of nutty design and sloppy implementation that is being piled on it (plus tthe failure to address security in any meaningful way). Probably won't happen ... but surely I can dream.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    29. Re:Amazing! by tebee · · Score: 1

      No only a civil exchange, but part of it was a civil, considered reply from an AC........

      --
      N.B. this user is far too lazy to write a witty and intelligent sig.
    30. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When did seamonkey start using XUL? I thought the mozilla app-suite had always drawn a non-native interface with js. What makes seamonkey preferable to firefox at this point?
      I wonder if epiphany, midori, arora or even opera would be worth a try instead.

    31. Re:Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (For those of you playing along at home: I've noticed that use of the term "weasel-word" is usually a cover for "I can't be arsed to do my homework, so I'll just parrot something I read on Wikipedia".)

      I did your homework for you!

    32. Re:Amazing! by Provocateur · · Score: 1

      a civil exchange on Slashdot

      That's it, then. The world will end tomorrow.

      --
      WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
    33. Re:Amazing! by mackyrae · · Score: 3, Informative

      I haven't tried with 128MB, but Etch + E17 runs dandy on a Pentium 2 with 192MB of RAM.

      --
      look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
    34. Re:Amazing! by ddillman · · Score: 1

      I find it hard to believe that a computer with these specs is impossible to hack and install Linux to, but Google searches have been largely unsuccessful in finding proper information.

      See, he said he searched Google. So instead of falsely accusing him of not looking, why not ridicule his total lack of Google-fu instead?

      --
      Little girls, like butterflies, need no excuse. -- L. Long
    35. Re:Amazing! by GodWasAnAlien · · Score: 1

      Every few years, there are efforts to remove X, to address a perception that X is a source of bloat. GTK has a few framebuffer backends, for example.

      They ultimately fail for a few reasons.

      The primary reason is that the non-X version of the toolkit will not be commonly used, and fall out of date quickly.
      The secondary reason is that removing X requires reinvention of things like window management, key focus and direction, direct graphics/opengl access.

      I assume that a solution like the Wayland display server will have more success.

    36. Re:Amazing! by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      the glibc libraries that link the code are becoming more and more bloated as the developers have more ram. The same application compiled today would take many times more ram than it would be with old libc gcc 2.95.

      More and more cooks' thumbs in the kettle. Which was supposed to be a good thing. Unfortunately everybody needs to leave their mark.

    37. Re:Amazing! by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Do a base install of NetBSD. Snip back services by editing /etc/rc.conf. Then install the limited packages that you need.

      It galls me how much crap gets dragged in without the user having any choice in most linux-based OSes. It's gotten so even Slackware is a big mess.

    38. Re:Amazing! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Somehow, I'm going to have to say "not freaking likely".

      I ran (for about a year) debian slink (2.1 iirc) on a P120 with 96MB of RAM and an 800MB disk. It was almost unusable, even with that RAM upgrade (from 32MB).

      That was with icewm and whatever the 'lightweight' browser was for the day (circa 2003). "Usable" is not a word I'd use to describe it unless we're talking about single-instance web browsing or IM.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    39. Re:Amazing! by sweisman · · Score: 0

      I just bought one from eBay, and it comes with 256MB (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260592078382). It comes stock with WinCE, but there is a sub-$100 tablet now out that uses the same ARM CPU and comes stock with Android, which I am interested in running on this.

    40. Re:Amazing! by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      One of my fantasies is that the entire damn web will collapse under the burden of nutty design and sloppy implementation that is being piled on it (plus tthe failure to address security in any meaningful way). Probably won't happen ... but surely I can dream.

      Alas I once had a similar dream for MS Windows, yet still it remains alive to taunt me.

    41. Re:Amazing! by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Every few years, there are efforts to remove X, to address a perception that X is a source of bloat. GTK has a few framebuffer backends, for example.

      They ultimately fail for a few reasons.

      I don't think that the problem is X, it's Parkinson's Law.

      X ran perfectly well on a 20MHz machine with 16Mb RAM in 1989. (In fact, it still ran okay on the Sun 3/50 I had on my desk in 1996.) Part of the subsequent bloat has been due to proliferation of graphics hardware, and some of it has been due to the demands of graphics-heavy applications such as video and games. But a lot of it has been because the RAM and CPU cycles were just there to be used.

      We don't need to get rid of X, but we do need to have a compile flag that will produce version that will run acceptably on a 500MHz machine with 128Mb RAM.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    42. Re:Amazing! by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Bingo. Here's your gold star.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    43. Re:Amazing! by MaxToTheMax · · Score: 1

      Old comment, sorry, but I know the answer-- SeaMonkey started using XUL and Gecko beginning with SeaMonkey 2.x. It's still somewhat more lightweight than Firefox. Composer etc. are still present.

    44. Re:Amazing! by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Well, at least the thing to which I linked to is actually used, apparently; in embedded applications.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  5. debian by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    I use debian on my arm raid box. Not a netbook, but similar specs (except for the keyboard and video, of course).

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  6. Why? by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't even get why these arm based machines come with windows ce, that's just setting the user up for disappointment... Sure it looks like windows, but won't run any of the apps people would expect to run on it....
    Linux at least doesn't create such a false impression, and has a much wider array of applications readily available for it.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    1. Re:Why? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I don't know why linux hasn't supplanted CE in this area; but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the low-end ARM-based "netbooks" are pretty much the direct architectural descendants of the pocketPCs of old, just in a different case/form factor.

    2. Re:Why? by Mojo66 · · Score: 1

      I don't know why linux hasn't supplanted CE in this area

      My guess is that most manufacturers have volume deals with Microsoft that explicitly forbid them to install anything else than Windows on their hardware. In exchange they get large rebates.

    3. Re:Why? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The SmartQ devices tripple boot Android, Ubuntu, and Wince, so it's not that difficult to produce something cheaply that comes with different OS options... I'm quite tempted by their V5 as a replacement for my ageing Nokia 770.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Why? by reiisi · · Score: 1

      I don't get why there are people here who still don't get this.

      --
      Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
    5. Re:Why? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Haven't you answered yourself right there?

      Impression.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    6. Re:Why? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      It's not a terrible OS, it's supported by a third party, it's a recognised brand name, and there's some off the shelf software for it. There are worse choices.

      Linux is fairly well recognised but there isn't a major player backing it. Getting it to work would require a certain amount of in-house development. QNX would be nice but nobody's heard of that and there's not a lot of software.

      It's actually a wide open marketplace. MS don't have a monopoly here yet. Perhaps Google will release a version of android for netbooks.

  7. Why Linux? Why not NetBSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    NetBSD runs on my toothbrush. I'm sure it'll run on your thingamabobber.

  8. The trouble... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

    With Linux on ARM is that ARM devices are substantially less standardized that x86s are when it comes to such niceties as the preboot/early stage of boot process.

    Because of the decades-long Wintel monopoly, pretty much any x86 board(with the exception of a few oddball embedded things and OLPCs), boots in almost the same way. Worst case, the ACPI implementation is so shot that you have to boot with -noacpi in order to get the kernel up and running.

    ARM devices, though, have had considerable freedom to do their own thing, so long as the vendor provided a BSP that papered over the weirdness enough to run the OS of the customer's choice(historically WinCe/VXworks, more recently this has included Linux). On the plus side, this has meant some fairly interesting capabilities in some of the bootloaders. On the minus side, this has meant a multitude of bootloaders(a few OSS, redboot, u-boot), some fairly common, and some horrid oddball crap that even Google has only heard mentioned a few times.

    If you can get the kernel booted, userland is not such a big deal. Debian has had a pretty decent one for a while, and the Ubuntu guys have recently been doing some "suitable for low-rez screens" type polishing. The issue will be figuring out the bootloader. And, of course, there is absolutely no assurance that the drivers for whatever oddball devices are crammed into the cheapo SoiCs in these things exist, or work properly.

    If you get to the stage of "what distro do I want", you are ahead of the game.

    1. Re:The trouble... by spazdor · · Score: 3, Funny

      Has anyone written a post-boot kernel loader for Windows CE along the lines of LOADLIN.EXE? That would save a lot of people a lot of agony.

      Sure it's a kludge. Not the kludge we need, but the kludge we deserve.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    2. Re:The trouble... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yup, that's how you ran other operating systems on a number of PDA-type devices. Unfortunately, for the same reasons outlined by the grandparent, it needs modification for each target machine and it also requires you to be able to install stuff in Wince that runs in privileged mode.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:The trouble... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/HaRET

    4. Re:The trouble... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, HaRET can generally boot kernels from WinCE.

    5. Re:The trouble... by imp · · Score: 1

      WinCE based boot loaders have existed for the past 10-12 years. But there's a problem with them. You can't replace the code at the reset vectors which is necessary to get the deep sleep modes working properly. You can run Linux or BSD on the box, but you'll not be able to suspend the laptop, nor will you be able to easily script the booting. If you are relying on WinCE to do the booting, you're also not able to reclaim that space in the Flash memory either.

    6. Re:The trouble... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      The one I've used is called HaRET, which is both a debugger-ish thing that lets you play with physical memory and GPIO ports, and a LOADLIN-style bootloader.

  9. Installing is the trick by crow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sure, Linux runs on lots of CPUs, and would have no problem on ARM, and probably even supports all the devices on the systems in question. The trick is finding a way to install it, and that's where the hacking comes in. How does the system boot? Can you modify the boot image to install Linux? Does the BIOS (or whatever equivalent) insist on only booting digitally-signed boot images like video game consoles do? Those questions may have different answers for each device.

    In most cases, I would think it shouldn't be too hard, as they aren't likely to bother with digital signatures, and they probably have some mechanism for installing an upgraded or patched operating system (for bug fixes, if nothing else). Someone has to buy one and figure out how to do it.

  10. Maemo by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Informative

    Is more a tablet or a cellphone than a netbook, but the N900 runs it, and is ARM based. And probably will be a Meego version for it too soon. Anyway, the N900 have twice that RAM, completes to 1gb counting the swap, and several times that flash on storage, you could feel a bit stretched with it.

    There are also several mini linux distributions specially targetted to low ram/hardware (i.e. damn small linux), but not sure if there are ARM ports of them.

    1. Re:Maemo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really have high hopes for MeeGo, even if it sounds like a rejected goblin name from LotR. I'm quite happy with Maemo on my N900 but I find the idea of QT as default quite sexy, so we'll see if I won't migrate when the time comes (or buy an N9xx). I'm definitely sold on that combination at least as it has alleviated me of my need for a netbook.

      Of course, if linux fails one could always give NetBSD a try.

  11. Nice hardware..... by xianthax · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't bother with ubuntu on that thing, my cell phone has better hardware specs, in every category.

    1. Re:Nice hardware..... by sznupi · · Score: 1

      It has more usable screen and keyboard?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  12. ARMeD Slack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Check out Slackware on ARM

    http://www.armedslack.org/

    This is is a port of 12.2 packages (slackware is almost complete with 13 rc1).

    1. Re:ARMeD Slack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slackware ARM 13.1 rc1 is also available right now!

  13. Lets be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Who honestly cares if they run Linux/Windows/Andriod/ any OS on these or not... these devices have about as much use as a 486 these days! They have f all power, the screens are crap and are basically useless...

    1. Re:Lets be honest... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're on the wrong site. Go back to digg or where ever you should be.

    2. Re:Lets be honest... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      While(unless your time is worth about $.30 an hour) these make lousy primary machines(and, unfortunately, due to the fact that many of them are cheap junk, they don't have compensating advantages like 15 hour battery lives, or ultralight weight), that doesn't mean they are without use.

      ~$80-$100 for a complete embedded system, with LCD and inputs, and a reasonable set of peripherals opens up all sorts of interesting projects, if you can get your OS of choice on there.

    3. Re:Lets be honest... by sznupi · · Score: 1

      And all those 486s controlling Shuttles or...Airbuses should just dissapear!

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  14. Google is part of your problem by CAIMLAS · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've already posted in this thread elsewhere, but I just thought I might add: Google is likely part of your problem (inability to find anything useful).

    I've noticed lately that Google has become much less of a useful resource when looking up technical information. You're more likely to find a useful link with "stupid" queries, but any level of complexity results in two out of three being only-sorta related. It's a mess, and historically useful search formatting (quoting, -, +, etc.) no longer really help.

    I really hope a better alternative comes along soon (or google releases "geek.google.com" or some such thing - with the old indexing). The lack of good search results (nay, worse results) has really made my life more difficult.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    1. Re:Google is part of your problem by i.r.id10t · · Score: 4, Informative

      Do you ever use www.google.com/linux or www.google.com/bsd ?

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    2. Re:Google is part of your problem by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Adding to what i.r.id10t said - how often did you use search annotations and moving results up/down when that was available? Plus in new search sidebar there's "fewer shopping sites"; that and strong position of sites which are good starting hubs of information is probably most Google can do; at least untill they have strong AI.

      And, somehow, not everybody has such problems when making searches...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    3. Re:Google is part of your problem by nadaou · · Score: 1

      hear hear

      --
      ~.~
      I'm a peripheral visionary.
    4. Re:Google is part of your problem by dragisha · · Score: 1

      Google AdSense is at center of problem. Combined with google rankings rush. Everybody and her father are poisoning searches to steal rankings, and everybody else is recycling contest to get some AdSense dollars. Same mailing lists again and again, with only difference being who-gets-paid-by-google.
      Not to mention idiotic spaghetti "web boards" .

      --
      http://opencm3.net, http://www.nongnu.org/gm2/
    5. Re:Google is part of your problem by Yfrwlf · · Score: 1

      Not knocking your suggestion, since narrowing your search results like that is going to be helpful on any search engine, but of course a search engine should be intelligent enough by default to give you relevant data and if one becomes cluttered due to ads or other useless things, it should stop being used.

      --
      Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
  15. Re:Why Linux? Why not NetBSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Contrary to what NetBSD advocates like to think, Linux actually runs on a wider variety of hardware than NetBSD does.

    In the real world where things that matter happen, there's only one BSD derivative that can claim to be anything near as successful as Linux is -- and that (officially) only runs on hardware from one single manufacturer.

  16. Why bother? by kitserve · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Looking at the specs given by the OP, I am wondering why you would go to the trouble of installing Linux on one of these machines (other than geek cred) when you could just get a MIPS based netbook with similar specs that comes with Linux, e.g. the CnMbook. I got one for £90 last year, it's slow as hell but does the job for basic web access etc when I don't want to carry around a full sized laptop.

    I might add that putting a full-featured Linux distro (e.g. replacing the basic Linux install it ships with with Debian or the like) on the CnMbook doesn't seem too plausible at the moment, there's just too much tweaking necessary, and this is a machine that ships with a Linux variant installed. Trying to put Linux on one of the ARM machines mentioned by the OP when it isn't even supported by the manufacturer seems like more pain than it's worth to me...

    --
    https://alephnull.uk/
    1. Re:Why bother? by Peter+Harris · · Score: 1

      I've got a CnMbook. It's shite; however I do have Debian on it. Not that I could have figured out how to do it myself, but someone did.

      I want an ARM netbook with linux on it, but I'll wait until I can buy one.

      --

      -- What do you need?
      -- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
    2. Re:Why bother? by Gori · · Score: 1

      I've got a CnMbook. It's shite;

      Can you elaborate please, it seems like a quite nice machine for some basic note typing/calendar/web/ssh stuff.

      --
      Complexity is a measure of our ignorance...
    3. Re:Why bother? by Peter+Harris · · Score: 1

      Oh alright.

      The keyboard is terrible, and sometimes inserts a stream of junk characters and flips into num-lock mode for no apparent reason.
      It is very slow to boot. Call me impatient, but it shouldn't take >40s to bring up a tiny linux system.
      The desktop and applications that come with it are not great, either, being very old versions.
      You can't easily install newer versions because the libraries are all based on a very old debian distro. You can't replace them easily, because there are parts of the system that may or may not have available source code so you could recompile them with newer libraries.
      The Wifi is unreliable.
      You can't hack on it unless you can get a programming language from somewhere, and things like Python (for example) are only available at quite old versions.

      I'll be fair, it has been a fun toy. But it's a toy. If you expect to do ANYTHING useful with it, you'll be disappointed.

      --

      -- What do you need?
      -- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
  17. NetBSD by reiisi · · Score: 2, Informative

    Or OpenBSD.

    Plenty useable.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
    1. Re:NetBSD by reiisi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hmm. Replying to myself, I see I may have spoken a little too hastily:

      http://www.netbsd.org/ports/#ports-by-cpu

      http://www.openbsd.org/armish.html

      --
      Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  18. bottleneck? by reiisi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it's a bottleneck on Puppy or basic Debian, it's going to be a bottleneck on MSWinxxx.

    The RAM is not the problem. The problem is the wetware of engineers who deliberately throw up roadblocks to using a decent OS.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  19. Use the OESF distro for the Simpad as a base by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Simpad is an ARM-based tablet computer made by Siemens some years back. It came with WIN CE but people have created a Linux distro called OESF that runs on it and it will run many Sharp Zaurus applications unmodified even though it has a much larger screen than a PDA.

    I would expect that people would have to do some boot loader hacking similar to what was done with Simpad, but if you could get that Simpad distro booted on one of these netbooks then you will be past the biggest hurdle in making Ubuntu Netbook remix run on them.

  20. trolls by reiisi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    semi-intelleigent sounding stuff that presumes INTEL has already won.

    Shoot. Why not just give in to the BORG entirely?

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
    1. Re:trolls by CAIMLAS · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Intel has already won"?

      Let's see: you can currently buy a capable Atom based mini-ITX board with a dual core processor for under $70 - sufficient system for a small office network server, workstation, and pretty much any common task. It's got lower power use than the competitors in the same price range as well as more performance. (In fact, the Atom boards are a bit cheaper than the cheapest Via and AMD board/CPU combos - and mostly fanless.)

      Now consider that the latest Atom has a TDP of 2 watts, and in-use power utilization about average for existing smartphone platforms. It might not immediately/seamlessly boot Windows 7, but I'd wager a bet that someone will figure out how to get it to work on account of it being an x86 chip. And a common Linux distro might very well be able to install without too much kludgery, too.

      This is something that just a couple years ago (when Atom first came out, there about) everyone said was impossible: Intel would never have anything that would compete with ARM processors on power utilization and performance. Yet these Mooreland CPUs appear to have just as much (if not more) performance than the latest, greatest Snapdragon and the iPad's SoC. Also consider how incredibly fast Intel came to market with this CPU (vs. the much more linear progression we've seen in the ARM platforms over the past decade).

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    2. Re:trolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the Atoms are pretty amazing. We're using what is essentially an Atom-based thin client with a bit more hard drive than usual at work to run SQL Server Express and a bunch of custom code (ours and a vendor's) to do all our credit card processing in each store.

      I'm not telling you who I work for, but it's a major company with around 14,000 US locations and 35,000 world-wide.

    3. Re:trolls by sznupi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're grealty underestimating Atom power usage and overestimating ARM one; they are typically at least an order of magnitude apart, quite often two.

      Now consider that in my damn Wintel PC (or...in those Atom ones you mention) there is most likely more ARM cores than x86 ones; to say nothing of all the devices around me.
      Heck, virtually all mobile phones are built around ARM. Even that is, at worst, around the number of all PCs in existence...but annually.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    4. Re:Re:trolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A common Linux distro DOES install, and fairly nicely, in fact. I'm typing this on an AspireOne netbook which uses an Atom CPU, and am currently running the Ubuntu Karmic netbook remix (with upgrades). What tweaking I had to do, was mainly for getting a handful of peripherals working in the way I wanted them to, but I could just as easily have managed without them altogether. Only gripe I had was that the installer had to be configured on a system running XP in order to get it bootable off of a USB thumb drive at the time. OpenSuse DID have a means of accomplishing something similar that did NOT need to set it up on a Windows box, but the process was considerably more of a hassle than my patience level could tolerate, and my prior experiences with OpenSuse, while overall rewarding, did include some real frustration regarding sound drivers during the install procedure on my desktop. I was NOT eager to endure THAT again.

    5. Re:trolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Intel would never have anything that would compete with ARM processors on power utilization and performance. Yet these Mooreland CPUs appear to have just as much (if not more) performance than the latest, greatest Snapdragon and the iPad's SoC."

      Is there a reason why you don't mention power consumption of Atom, while you set out to compare performance and power consumption of Atom vs ARM?

      "Now consider that the latest Atom has a TDP of 2 watts, and in-use power utilization about average for existing smartphone platforms."

      You compare the power consumption of a CPU with the power consumption of a complete platform. Apples, oranges.

      For a better comparison: Tegra2 ARM SoC uses 0.5 Watts

      Whatever Intel can do to reduce power consumption (short of a fundamental CPU redesign), ARM can do to, and ARM has the upper hand when it comes to transistors per instruction until Intel does a fundamental CPU redesign.

    6. Re:trolls by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Am I? Are you going based on experience?

      Because if you are, you're wrong. I'm not talking about current-generation Atoms; I'm talking about this: New Intel Atom smashes ARM - Moorestown SoC unvieled.

      "Paying attention" is important; it helps you participate in the conversation at hand, not one entirely different.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    7. Re:trolls by mqduck · · Score: 1

      you can currently buy a capable Atom based mini-ITX board with a dual core processor for under $70

      I've been searching the Web and I can't find any examples of these sub-$100 netbooks. Could you please tell me where you're hearing about them?

      --
      Property is theft.
    8. Re:trolls by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Ohhh, I'm sorry, I did miss that you talk in present tense about future, unreleased, next year products; basing it on an article with as sensationalist headline as they get, generally aping Intel PR. I guess that's what passes as "paying attention" these days...

      Or...maybe...might look at one site with typically quite decent articles; which paints somewhat different picture.
      Atom "for smartphones" only, no Win for you or generic Linux distro. "Southbridge" has "system controller/32 bit risc" - would be surprising if that's not some ARM (plus at least another one in radio interface; that's already probably more ARM cores than x86 ones, to keep power consumption at merely acceptable levels; Intel couldn't do it without ARM). Less efficient and more expensive multichip solution (and of course other manufacturers are expected to make this effort, for miniscule portion of the market...while Intel doesn't risk anything; but anyway, there are no announcements - while phones would need to get certs quite some time before release; Android players have no incentive to switch; Apple has none, either, considering their inhouse ARM team; Samsung goes its own way, their own SoCs; Nokia devices with MeeGo are an uberniche product - Symbian is their powerhouse)

      Plus Intel doesn't even tell everything - they show those nice power usage numbers only in scenarios...when x86 core is idling; when the "supporting" hardware (with a great help of ARM cores :D ) does the real work. Power usage when x86 is doing something intensive (using its "impressive" speed) is strangely absent...

      It's still probably around an order of magnitude difference. And if you don't see the progress in the past decade from, say, ARM7TDMI to latest Cortex...that's your problem.
      A progress constrained by battery technology BTW; Intel offering doesn't help that, quite the contrary. Their greatest strength, process shrinking, no longer works quite the way as before.

      BTW, how is the i960 or Itanium going?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  21. DSL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No not Digital Subscriber Line! Damn Small Linux here - http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/

  22. This is a generic model by dermoth666 · · Score: 1

    This is a very generic model; do you have any idea who manufactured the board inside? It appears most other WinCE laptops out here are based on that exact same board - the shell/color differs but the ports are placed exactly at the same place!

    If one of them runs Linux that would likely be a good starting point, then you need to figure out a way to write the flash memory.

  23. Linux on iPAQ by lostdistance · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have installed Linux on an HP iPAQ hx4700 PDA (624MHz XScale PXA270, 64Mb RAM, 128Mb flash, 480x640 screen). As others have pointed out the main problems are finding (1) a boot loader and (2) drivers for your device. In the case of the hx4700 these problems were already solved for Familiar Linux (familiar.handhelds.org); SDG Systems produced a boot loader and others produced the kernel patches and drivers. A more generic boot loader is HaRET (Handheld Reverse Engineering Tool), a Linux bootloader which works from the Windows CE environment. I haven't used it myself because I wiped WinCE off my iPAQ years ago. Drivers and platforms for ARM devices are being developed for the Linux kernel all the time; check out the source code under ./arch/arm. But you may not find exactly the right combination for your device. Being a kernel hacker helps! As for a Linux distro, I first used Familiar Linux. But that is no longer actively developed. So I switched to Angstrom Linux (www.angstrom-distribution.org). But that doesn't offer the latest version of the Mozilla Fennec browser. And in both cases I found the desktop environment (e.g. GPE) to be too resource hungry. So I have now rolled my own distro from the latest software sources. In particular I am using a window manager called PAWM (Puto Amo Window Manager), which is small and perfect for a device without a keyboard, and fennec-2.0a1pre built from bleeding edge sources. Yes, they do actually work in 64Mb of RAM! It does take some effort to port, configure, debug and fix the software, but it's fun to do.

  24. MeeGo by vkv.raju · · Score: 1

    You can wait for MeeGo (Nokia's Maemo + Intel's Moblin) which is expected to get released (for the end user) in the coming quarter. It will run on both ARM and PC.

  25. Linux on a PocketPC by dido · · Score: 1

    How different then, would doing this kind of thing be from installing Linux on a PocketPC/Windows CE device such as an iPaq? Yes, that is possible, but it is far from straightforward. I imagine the device is significantly different from a standard PC and more like a PocketPC-based ARM handheld or smartphone, and one ought to be considering it as such. I assume that such a device will not have some Palladium-like trusted computing system similar to what one sees in some gaming consoles which prevents one from easily changing the OS arbitrarily, but even so, getting everything to work is likely to be a major chore.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  26. Zaurus by i621148 · · Score: 1

    I have a Sharp Zaurus and it is ARM. I think there is an open source version of it also: www.openzaurus.org

    1. Re:Zaurus by ld+a,b · · Score: 1

      Better yet, just buy a Sharp Netwalker, now also in tablet form, and get Linux on ARM with better specs.
      You can then spend your time trying to run Debian or a recent Ubuntu version from the SD card.

      --
      10 little-endian boys went out to dine, a big-endian carp ate one, and then there were -246.
  27. Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not? http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-arm.xml
    I've Gentoo installed on 2G USB drive, working on any x86 system I tried to boot up. Switching to ARM should not be a problem.
    The 128Mb limit should mean poor performances, depending on your way to use the computer.

    Geek users can do a lot, with Linux.
    Linux can be installed on very poor systems, even more strange than Augen E-Go. Have you tried to install Linux in a home router? http://openwrt.org/

    So, you can install Linux on such a computer and it should not be so hard.
    I'm pretty sure about, considering that I didn't try... :)

    Regards,
    HUJuice

  28. Unappealing market segment for manufacturers by Angst+Badger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem with portable computing devices -- at least the ones that aren't tied to an expensive cell plan -- is that they are such narrow margin markets that few manufacturers are interested in them. Let's say that you want a lightweight, long battery life, portable computer with a full-sized keyboard to do actual work on: word processor, spreadsheet, or for the more technically inclined, a text editor and a copy of gcc, and you don't give a shit about watching video or browsing Flash-heavy sites.

    Good luck with that.

    It's not that there's any technical barrier involved here. You could do all of that just fine on a 90MHz Pentium fifteen years ago, or even a 50MHz 80486 twenty years ago. Odds are that the processor and memory in a third-rate cell phone could blow those specs away. Add a real screen and a keyboard, and you've got a device that could retail under $100. Of course, that means that it would probably wholesale for around $40, and the manufacturer's profit would likely be a couple of bucks, but only for the month or two it would take every factory in Taiwan to rush out clones. And that's provided it wasn't stillborn because every clueless tech "journalist" started bitching about how you couldn't watch video or play the latest games on it. Frankly, you can't really blame the manufacturers for not wanting to jump on that wagon.

    So instead, we get the overpriced toys of the netbook world which, while capable computing platforms in the abstract, are so crippled by their toy keyboards that they're basically DVD viewers with built-in web browsers. It's like the final, terrifying revenge of WebTV.

    I suspect that if you want something else, you're going to have to find an otherwise suitable netbook and substantially modify the hardware yourself. Personally, I've been giving serious thought to stuffing the guts of a netbook inside of a vintage IBM Model M keyboard and building a custom cover for it.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Unappealing market segment for manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alphasmart neo.

  29. arm ubuntu using efl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.linuxuk.org/2010/02/the-new-ui-for-arm-based-ubuntu-devices/

  30. The reason it's hard... by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    is because ARM systems so far are embedded systems.

    PCs are easy because their behavior is very simple and effectively, hasn't changed much since the beginning. But ARMs are a dime a dozen and used in various things from lightweight controllers to cellphones. Your PC might very well have several ARM processors inside it.

    As a result, every ARM system is different - the memory map is different, the interrupt controller is different between SoC vendors, peripherals are located at different spots, etc. The only real constant is that ARMs boot at 0x0, but many SoCs have boot ROMs that are mapped at that area, which load a bootloader off storage at some arbitrary memory location and jumps there. End result, on ARM, you need to build a kernel/bootloader that's specific to your hardware.

    On a PC, it's pretty much a monoculture and you know where things are in physical memory space. Things are located at well known addresses. On a PC, then, it's effectively the same architecture. That's why there's so many OSes available because the basic kernel needs are all the same across every PC, ranging from low power embedded systems to super 128-core behemoths - you know where RAM starts, how the BIOS will load you and where, how the interrupt controller, timer hardware, etc., work, and how to talk to more advanced peripherals via interfaces like ACPI. Hell, about the biggest change in PCs is the slow move to EFI based firmware, but they implement a BIOS compatibility module for backwards compatibility.

    Try writing a program where you don't know where you're going to be located in memory, hardware you don't know where it might be located, interrupt controllers that can change wildly, etc without requiring reconfiguration and recompilation, and it's impossible. That's the current state of ARM systems...

    1. Re:The reason it's hard... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of this can be worked out if you open up the device.
      Few manufacturers go as far as Apple and use an ASIC.

  31. SmartQ 7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Im extremely happy with my SmartQ 7. Its using a slightly modified and not very optimized Ubuntu. Should work for similar systems with the same Samsung reference design.

  32. Debian with Android kernel by transgression · · Score: 1

    My experience has been with a 300MHz ARM with 128MB ram. The hardest part was actually finding the real manufacturer of my device. It's a no name device I bought off eBay dirt cheap. The manufacturer released an Android OS image for the device so I could use that kernel image. Installed Android to the internal flash, and have Debian booting straight from an SD card. It doesn't load Debian from Android it loads straight into Debian when the SD card is in. There are some scripts that need to be in place but they can be copied and modified from the Android install image. You have to be picky with your choice of applications but you can have a very functional device for when you are on the go. I actually run the XFCE desktop environment. It is by no means the most lightweight but it still performs well. These devices can't compete with the power of a notebook, but they can still be very useful. I use mine for the net (Links 2 graphical mode or Midori browser), email (Claws Mail) and for coding on the go, although compile time is a drag :). It runs Abiword and Gnumeric surprisingly well. You just have to remember that these devices aren't notebooks. Although with the right choice of apps they can be quite quick and responsive.

  33. Bootload is the issue by nukem996 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The problem with changing what an arm device runs is in the bootloader that arm devices run. What most arm devices have is firmware that not only configures the CPU and other devices but loads the OS. Unlike a PC where it loads some code off the first sector of the drive most arm devices actually have the code to load the file system, put a file in memory, and execute it. This is great except there is no standard on how to do this and can be configured from very easy to change(i.e just change the file it loads) to very hard(i.e the firmware checks the file checksum). Your best bet is to do some googling on the device and see who makes the CPU. Then google and CPU and you should find what the standard firmware the manufacture uses. Next you need to hook a serial device(most devices have these just no serial port on the board, you need to sodier it on). Then you can start hacking away. Marvell based devices are great since the OpenRD and Netplug devices have plenty of documentation and they all use the same boot loader and such.

  34. A number of posts are mentioning MeeGo by Qubit · · Score: 2, Informative

    So here's a little more background for those who haven't followed development of it closely:

    MeeGo is the arranged marriage of Intel's Moblin + Nokia's Maemo.

    MeeGo is still under heavy development, and although source and builds are available, everything is still experimental.

    The steering group is "planning [a] release of MeeGo version 1 in the second quarter of 2010", according to the FAQ. It'll be here soon; don't start making plans to run it as your daily OS until v1.0 is actually released.

    To give a taste of how raw development of the OS is right now, even basic tutorials on how to write a "Hello, World" application aren't useful to the community yet as most tutorials depend upon the MeeGo SDK, a component that hasn't yet been released by Intel.

    But what you care about most is: "Will it run on my hardware?"

    The best place to determine that is on the Devices page on the MeeGo Wiki. If you find that you can run the current development images on a different piece of hardware, please make a note of it on that page.

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
  35. Please support genuine Linux ARM machines by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    There is nothing inherently difficult about Linux on ARM. I have installed Gentoo on two such systems, a Buffalo Linkstation and a Nokia N800 (though the latter runs Maemo most of the time). These devices were designed for Linux to begin with.

    IMHO, it is much better to support manufacturers that support Linux. Even if you get Linux running on one of these WinCE devices, you are supporting a closed monoculture by buying it.

    As of netbooks, there are two currently available in online stores that I find particularly interesting: Always Innovating Touchbook (ARM) and Lemote Yeeloong (MIPS). Both of these are intended for open source hackers. The Lemote, in fact, is completely open source down to the firmware level. Both of these are considerably more powerful than the WinCE ARM netbooks.

    The last time I mentioned these, some people complained that the Lemote is not actually available anywhere, so here are two places:

    http://lemote.kd85.com/

    http://www.tekmote.nl/epages/61504599.sf/nl_NL/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61504599/Categories/%22Lemote%20linux%20PC%20and%20Linux%20laptops%22

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    1. Re:Please support genuine Linux ARM machines by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > The last time I mentioned these, some people complained that the Lemote is not actually available anywhere, so here are two places:

      I can guess the .nl site isn't where I should look so try the .com. Lets see, UK only keyboard, Shipped from Europe and paid in Euros (more fees) and at prices higher than a lot of higher spec hardware without those problems. And you get to buy it from a tiny site that can't even spring for an SSL cert. I know I'm eager to put my credit card in that. Sounds like 'not available' for all intents and purposes.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
  36. Depends on the device by zenvoid · · Score: 1

    Commonly in a PC you have the BIOS which initializes CPU, RAM, and then executes code from a device (usually the bootloader). There is no such thing in ARM, each device has its own custom code to initialize the hardware and load the operating system. Sometimes that code is embedded in ROM memory which makes it harder until someone finds a way to overwrite it (bug or hardware hack). Not impossible, but certainly no quick and easy.

    If you plan to install linux on it, try to find an "easily hackable" device, or better: get one that already comes with linux.

  37. But it is still a bitch by Guillaume+le+Btard · · Score: 1

    At the company I work we have some little arm computers, no netbooks but rather thin clients. They come with windows CE 5 installed, but it is a bitch to get them to run linux. I have not succeeded at all. Partly because I don't know windows CE and I can't seem to get Haret to boot my prepared linux kernel because it won't work properly.

  38. Yes, Ubuntu will run on ARM by mackyrae · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the Ubuntu Developer Summit last November, one of the Ubuntu ARM guys did a plenary presentation where the machine hooked to the projector was an ARM machine running Ubuntu. I also saw Jonathan Riddell looking for a USB mouse so he could install Kubuntu on an ARM machine he'd been handed.

    --
    look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
  39. Already running Linux on ARM here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Already running Linux on ARM here. It is called a Nokia N800. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N800
    There are N770, N810, and N900 models too.

    I've had the N800 for a few years and have traveled internationally with it and no other computer. That's great for overnight, but I have to admit the screen physical size, resolution and keyboard (I have a BT keyboard that I bring with me) have been real issues for common tasks like blogging, email, remoting into servers and other systems. A 7" model under $100 with 256MB of RAM and a keyboard certainly would be a fantastic replacement for me. I doubt the battery on a larger model would support all day use and that the battery would be small+light enough for a quick switch on those international flights.

    BTW, media playback (xvid, flash, divx, mpeg2) work well enough on the N800 processor too. There are thousands of the most popular Linux tools already ported alone with the most popular Maemo specific tools - Maemo Mapper is a great GPS/mapping tool, for example.

  40. Little Linux Laptop by Patch86 · · Score: 1

    I can't be 100% sure what you've got because I can't find much info about it on the internet, but odds are good that is just a re-stickering of a very prevalent ARM netbook that's doing the rounds.

    If so, a developer community can be found below, and there is a full replacement Linux distro available (no promises that it'll work, YMMV etc.).

    http://www.littlelinuxlaptop.com/

  41. NetWalker has pre-installed Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check out the Sharp NetWalker. It comes with Ubuntu Pre-installed. It's so small that people assume it's a texting phone or a Nintendo DS.

    http://conics.net/catalog/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=572

  42. how many sock puppets do you have? by reiisi · · Score: 1

    I don't know where you got the mod points from, but others without as many real-world sock-puppets have pointed out where you are either lying or fooling yourself.

    Look at all the resources intel has to waste keeping x86 afloat. Engineering resources, marketing resources, arm twisting, kickbacks and bribes, ...

    Imagine what we could have, if the resources intel is putting into keep x86 afloat were put into ARM. Or, shoot, PPC. Sparc, ColdFire. MIPS. The other Moore's FORTH CPU.

    No, you can't imagine it because you're afraid it would offend your gods.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  43. Cross LFS or Debian Live? by itomato · · Score: 1

    - Create ARM VM (Qemu does this)
    - Create development image/environment (Qemu can do ARM)
    - Build an ARM image
    - Test in emulator/simulator
    - Install with one of several methods - the Debian Installer works on ARM, for example.
    - Test, log notes for yourself, and repeat the build process
    ----
    http://cross-lfs.org/view/clfs-embedded/arm/introduction/how.html>

    "The CLFS system will be built by using a previously installed Linux distribution (such as Debian, Fedora, Mandriva, SUSE, or Ubuntu). This existing Linux system (the host) will be used as a starting point to provide necessary programs, including a compiler, linker, and shell, to build the new system. Select the "development" option during the distribution installation to be able to access these tools."
    ---
    Debian Live - ARM
    http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Arm

  44. Android OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, many of these ARM based computers are shipping with the Android OS and such. Amdroid IS Linux.

  45. X Windows Bloat, Late 80s style by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Yes, we always thought X Windows was a bit bloated, back in the late 80s, on a 386/33. I don't remember how much RAM it had (if I still have to files to look that up, they're on a 9-track tape or maybe a 60MB Sun cartridge...) It was a bit faster than running NeWS on a diskless Sun3/50 with 8MB RAM, but NeWS was so much cleaner most of the time that it was the better system.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  46. Modern? Netscape 2 had Javascript by billstewart · · Score: 1

    And you couldn't even turn it off. And Skr1pt K1dd13z no longer remember all the horrible attacks you could use because of it....

    I think the original versions of Opera had Javascript as well - the whole thing fit on half a floppy disk.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  47. Das Uboot will do the job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Das Uboot will help boot linux on 95% (maybe even 99%) ARM systems
    http://www.denx.de/wiki/U-Boot

  48. For homebrew stuff this works by symbolset · · Score: 1

    It's a lot more work to find Moorestown product without Windows attached to it in a complete platform. For whatever reason, if Windows will run on the thing no matter how poorly, it's sold with Windows. No thanks. I do have a few of those inexpensive Atom boards. The video on the early ones was pretty hopeless, and they didn't run Vista well. But attach an SSD for the OS and a 2TB HDD for data with Ubuntu it makes a credible media server, guest workstation, thin client and Citrix terminal. Intel is so terrified that these platforms will "cannibalize" their established and more expensive server, desktop and notebook product lines that they cripple them in various ways - limited memory, video resolution, no PCIe. Intel's suffocating the product line their own selves.

    Regular Windows doesn't run on ARM, and fewer ARM platforms are shipping with the WinCE version of Windows these days. So we'll get ARM platforms for the most part not because they're better (though all-day battery while playing 1080p is still beyond Moorestown in a practical CE device), but simply because people can get them without Windows attached, and with it Microsoft's control of the software platform, the user interface down to the icons on the desktop, the feature set, the necessary antimalware suite that sucks out any performance and battery life the platform might have.

    Moorestown is a cool product and I'll probably get a few platforms of that for various things. For the tablet type devices I think I'll stick with the Android Tegra tablets. Did you know that the manufacturers of Android platforms are allowed to optimize the software and user experience for their platform? Isn't that neat? It can come out of the box ready to use.

    Maybe in the next generation the Atom line will be more interesting as the power envelope for the processor and the support chips comes more in line with what ARM can do. For now, not so much. With Windows 7 the product will always be disappointing.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  49. Start with a device designed to prevent the goal by symbolset · · Score: 1

    And then be surprised that it's difficult to reach the goal. Brilliant!

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  50. atom power consumption - was Re:trolls by speculatrix · · Score: 1

    Some readers may remember that Intel was once an Arm licensee, with the PXA StrongArm range, which they sold off to Marvell, a move many found strange at the time and then soon after came Atom which sort of explained it. In the meantime Intel have struggled to keep up with the march of Arm, nearly every CPU in a handheld device is an Arm processor or derivative.

    The problem with the earlier N-series atom motherboards is that not so much the atom itself but the support chip set, a problem played down quite a bit by Intel - whilst the CPU might have been less than 10W the motherboard would eat a lot more. The new N-series are quite a bit better.

    Some netbooks used the Z5xx series, and that processor was even more frugal, but the support chipset called US15W aka Poulsbo had some interesting design issues, one being that it didn't have SATA support, only PATA (when it was announced PATA was already well on its way out). Also, the GMA500 video chipset has historically been badly supported by Intel - just google for GMA500 linux.

    An arm cortex a8 and its entire chipset eats less power than just an atom, which is why they're used in Palm Pre, Nokia N900, iPhone 3GS, Archos tablet, and other handheld devices.

    Intel, recently announced the new Moorland Z6xx processors which in theory will be competitive on power with the Arm Cortex. However, a CPU by itself without chipset support, and good driver software etc, is not enough. Hopefully Intel learned that with the Z5xx, even though they have persistently failed to rectify that despite lots of complaints from the community.

    1. Re:atom power consumption - was Re:trolls by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      They didn't announce a new CPU. They announced a new SoC, based on a new CPU. Slight difference.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  51. Re:Start with a device designed to prevent the goa by Guillaume+le+Btard · · Score: 1

    The SoC used is the same as in the GP2X Wiz, only problem is starting the kernel. The rest should be fine.

  52. Netwalker by Propofol · · Score: 1

    I have recently bought a Netwalker PC-Z1 as a replacement for my Zaurus PDA. Ubuntu Jaunty seems to work well on this device. Here is one review: http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/27/sharps-5-inch-pc-z1-netwalker-honors-the-zaurus-legacy/ Unfortunately it is aimed only at the Japanese market & needs to be converted to English.

  53. Use buildroot. by Ateocinico · · Score: 1

    If your machine can boot from a SD card, you can build a bootable linux system
    well under 2GB, including qt and multimedia, using this project:

    http://buildroot.uclibc.org/

    I have already used it for a mini2440 with 64Mbytes of ram and a Smagung
    S3C2440 micrcontroller with a 926T arm core. Buildroot is self contained
    and lets you configure everything from the kernel up to the applications
    you want in your system. It is conceived precisely for those small systems with
    small amounts of ram and a framebuffer instead of a graphics processor.
    Usefull for other architectures like mips, powerpc, i386, avr32, etc.