actually it benefits the economy at large as people and companies can't get out of paying tax as easily by playing games or just finding great accountants. it cuts overhead and simplifies things.
try australia - better quality of live and less debt, lower unemployment. new zealand - similar story, but a bit more limited in options singapore - rising and good standard of living and tropical hong kong - solid, good standard of living and always having money and trade flowing through brazil - sure - general standard of living lower, but it's like the usa with a huge class split and if you come from europe or the us or other "first world" countries you have an advantage in that the money you bring is worth more there and frankly with that you have as good a life as"back home", with much more growth and opportunity. korea - standard of living on the rise and getting close to on-par with the west. japan - stable, always has jobs, not growing, not doing much exciting, but high quality of life.
those are places i have lived in or visited often enough. never been to chile - but i hear, due to resources, it has a high standard of living.
sorry, but that's EFL (enlightenment foundation libraries), not e17. EFL are the libs we have been slaving away at built FOR e17, but e17 itself is not out and released yet.
this doesn't mean e17 itself isn't actually stable - it is. it's used every single day by 1000's of people, and is the WM used by tizen too. we just have high quality bars we place on releases. for us a release is what most projects take 4 or 5 releases to get done. we just don't try and release buggy, unstable and half-baked stuff.
sure not perfect, but considering the hardware and what it is being asked to do, not bad. thanks to having to do pixel readback from x it could be about 2x faster for window updates. we might be able to shortcut this specifically for EFL apps, though not generically for all. also don't forget if you have a GPU it can happily use opengl for compositing too which gets rid of the readback and it's all accelerated then.
correct. and the original author granted use (and re-distribution) rights under the terms of the GPL. the GPL(v2) does not require that you, as someone who holds the source simply make what you got plus all current modification freely available at all. It requires that you pass on those rights to whomever you distribute to (and distribution can come with a fee if you so wish), and that does NOT mean the original authors OR just any general joe. ONLY the people you distribute to must you either supply the source + your changes, OR provide a written offer to supply the source being optionally ably to charge a nominal fee covering the distribution costs of that source (e.g. cost of a cd, postage etc.).
until the original author buys the software from them he's not able to exercise these rights granted under the GPL as those rights extend "forwards" i.e to the person you distribute to.
Where did the OP say this? I read the OP and nowhere did he say he had actually got a copy of the source from the vendor with copyright stripped out. If he's paid the $49 and cot a copy with it stripped out then he definitely has a Copyright violation, but that wasn't stated in the post.
If your software were a compiled language (eg c/c++/java etc.) then if they didn't provide the original source OR didn't provide it on request by you AS A CUSTOMER (the license is granting rights to the people they distribute to - ie customer), then they violate. If they have put the php through some code obfuscator and don't provide the original source before obfuscation, then this would come under the "compiled" category i'd say. What they are doing is perfectly legal under the GPL.
If it's nice to do or not is another matter, but it doesn't violate GPL unless they do the above.. and this ONLY applies to people they distribute the product to - i.e. that person gains the rights under the GPL and if they do not follow through with them they violate the GPL as the license was distributed to them.
The idea that everyone must make the source of their GPL product available for free is not enshrined inside the GPL at all. It's simply something many do because its simply easier and more practical, less work, or it is nicer to the community that provided them with the source to begin with, but nowhere in the actual legalities of the license does it require this (3rd parties in this case means only 3rd parties you distribute the program to, not all 3rd parties in the world).
Good luck man! all the best in whatever you do next. It's been a long time since you started/. and I remember its infancy well. Thumbs up on a job well done.:)
void * eh? may i ask that you actually use correct facts?
for comparisons i'm afraid I can't help you as the examples are in-house, but simply scrolling around, measuring startup time of the app and more alone has EFL pulling in general easily 2x the framerate of GTK+. GTK+ cannot overlay or blend widgets at all (not without clutter and redirection rendering). EFL can. EFL can do it with OpenGL or without. Clutter requires OpenGL, so no non-GL option. Disk size of EFL libraries combined vs GTK+GDK etc. is much smaller. You'll just have to trust me. if you don't - that's fine, but I don't make idle claims. Historically I hope that I have shown that I FIRST write the code THEN i benchmark, THEN i make claims. most software likes to make claims long before code has even been started. So if you apply those standards - you'll be disappointed. You'll just have to wait until products are out.
Maybe the fact that Samsung has tried many toolkits and has backed EFL says something? Samsung's culture is one of optimization. It must be fast. It must be smooth. They like EFL because it meets their view of the world of wanting optimal solutions. If you believe that it's all hot air, then... I guess Samsung simply hasn't done its homework or compared anything and 100's of engineers are wasting their time using EFL. I can't change your view. If you think that "maybe there is something to this" and try things out - you might be surprised. I'm sorry - I don't spend my days writing the same app in GTK+, Qt and EFL just to make you happy with perfect comparisons. Can't help you there.
I have to thank you for the comment. Mostly because it is actually thoughtful and realistic. You actually followed history and development and though many people - even you, lost patience, you've come to see that the stubbornness of EFL development actually has paid off. It's achieved what it was meant to.:) Now we get to improve it even more while people can build things on top of a stable API.
You can just have a ford model-t like everyone else. as long as you like black. if you don't... too bad.:)
Seriously, it's choice. it's competition. If you didn't have choice or competition everything would stagnate. You are free to say that EFL, or GTK+ or Qt or whatever just isn't your choice. It may not provide more than what you currently use, but other people may find it a benefit. There is a big cost in working with an existing framework. You have to carry its history along with you and baggage. When you disagree you can't just change it - you have to fight politics. Some people don't like to fight politics and want to just get on with proving their ideas right and writing the code. Reasons are many. It's mostly the reality of competition. No one entity funds all the efforts and forces everyone into 1 way of doing it. Reality is that people compete. Same with libraries and API's. Toolkits. Frameworks. They can compete, so they do. Hopefully it means choice for developers to use a toolkit more in-tune with their goals.
i think he was implying that version 1.0 MEANS something different to different development teams. same with 2.0, 3.0 etc. etc. - where one group will rapidly move up from 1.0 to 2.0 then 3.0, 4.0 and jump to 7.0 or whatever another will lurk in 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and maybe take many years to hit 1.0. it mostly centers around "what meaning do you attach to 1.0, 2.0 etc." is 1.0 just "its ok and seems to work" vs "this is golden and well polished. very solid and you have mountain of features and are very unlikely to hit problems".
it always varies. wine took a LONG time to get to 1.0 - so did EFL. Linux kernel still hasn't gone beyond 2.x. KDE and Qt have hit 4.x by now. Windows is throwing 7.x around. MacOS is talking version 10.x... very big difference in numbers and vast difference in meanings.
We're improving the website and documentation. There is stuff there. The problem is all those demos and screenshots and tutorials take a lot of time. take a dig through the website - about page, wiki and so on. you can look on youtube for videos of what EFL can and has done.
I'm still here (@ Samsung). What comes out and when is not something I can say, but Enlightenment and EFL are in heavy use here at Samsung R&D. Samsung Mobile platform R&D isn't a small place either. EFL actually does what very little else can do and generally faster or much faster, with more flexibility and smaller footprint. And it improves day by day. Expect a stream of releases and new libraries, and so on over time. Priority is in getting things right for long-term longevity, not short-term publicity. So wait and see what appears.
i'm going to have to giggle at that... considering that NOTHING uses gl on your desktop for everything - compositor - ok. games ok. for rendering your scrollbars, buttons, text, and more... i suggest you try it one day... and find out just how "solid" opengl is... you may be in for a shock.
opengl is good as what it is USED for - the examples above. try using it for all the 2d stuff that has been done for years... and you'll hit issues. gtk an qt still almost entirely work with software rendering - very little of 2d beyond blits and fills is accelerated in x - x will just render with the cpu - or cairo will... or... you get the idea. software is alive and well for this way of rendering. opengl is struggling to get there. in some cases its doing well - in others its not.
you may be surprised on what consumes more battery. i have seen the case where the cpu will render faster with less overall power usage than the gpu. but in the end EFL gives you the choice - at runtime even. many rendering paths are supported. choose the one that is best for you. in the end what matters is the user experience - if you offload to a gpu, use the cpu or whatever - the user needs to feel that things work nicely. if a cpu manages 30fps and gpu manages 15fps - the cpu will almost always provide a better experience - even if you now have to share it between rendering and logic (invariably you are not rendering when you are doing logic. most logic is done to set up the screen state - then you scroll around and do things with that logic. games are the exception here, but generally in 2d ui land your cpu is idle anyway - but consuming power)
why do you include e17? have you looked at e17's config files - ever? they are not eeven text. they are binary - a format serialised and unserialised from data structures in ram. it is entirely designed about making the CODE provide configuration - not a text editor. "with some convolution it is possible to decode the config as a structured text format and edit then re-encode, but very few people know how to do that as its a hidden command-line tool you never know is there. it's mostly used during compilation for generating initial configs).
i count 41 configuration modules alone in e17 - thats probably 50+ config dialogs... e17 is far from forcing you to edit ttext configs - it's exposed almost all config in the gui - somewhere. there's at least 3 config dialogs that will affect font size (theme, font config dialog and ui scaling - where scaling is what people REALLY want - not font size. they want to say "i cant make that out - make it bigger" and that includes text, icons and more).
i will admit that many dialogs can be improved in their content, labelling and more - and will admit that there are so many config options and dialogs that people get lost and don't find the option they want - but it is there, in a gui, with a simple click/drag + ok...
the elephant in the room is that e17's libraries (efl) have been using full accelerated pipelines like opengl to render years before gnome or kde did... maybe you never saw the original evas gl rendering demos... all hidden behind a canvas api that rendered any way you like... the engine got revamped recently thanks to samsung for opengl-es2.0... not just opengl (full opengl).
(note - ubuntu's problem is the lack of ability to ship the binary-only powervr opengl drivers themseleves - thus their hands are tied. manufacutrers who make full products invariably have access o the driver source and have ship them on their devices).
so.. e17 does... it just ALSO has a highly tuned software engine for when the pipeline doesn't work.../me goes back to his e17 on an arm soc with full gl-es2 compositing, tear-free rendering and silky smooth scrolling with many layers of blending and smoothness
in e17 there is a wonderful full complete ui scaling factor - u can ask it to be automatically adjusted from dpi - if x dpi is right, or just slide the slider to where you like it... so moot for 17 - not to mention a font config dialog when themes support textclasses...
read the last sentence. no full-stop. he just registered his/. account "now" (very recently) to troll comments. if i had said: "thanks for registering your account. now for some trolling fun" then you'd definitely have a point!:) (notice the fullstop. 1 vs 2 sentences. different meanings entirely).:)
"developer community alienated by Lauer & Co. GNOME knew why they kicked Rasterman out."
WTF? One thing to say here. No one kicked me out of GNOME - get your history right. Do your research. You demonstrate some serious ignorance here. I chose to not contribute anymore due to GNOME going one way, and me going another. I had plans for E and they had plans for GNOME as of course "GNOME needs no window manager. it can work with all of them!". Check your history mate.
Thanks for registering your account now for some trolling fun.
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actually it benefits the economy at large as people and companies can't get out of paying tax as easily by playing games or just finding great accountants. it cuts overhead and simplifies things.
you need to get out more.
try australia - better quality of live and less debt, lower unemployment.
new zealand - similar story, but a bit more limited in options
singapore - rising and good standard of living and tropical
hong kong - solid, good standard of living and always having money and trade flowing through
brazil - sure - general standard of living lower, but it's like the usa with a huge class split and if you come from europe or the us or other "first world" countries you have an advantage in that the money you bring is worth more there and frankly with that you have as good a life as"back home", with much more growth and opportunity.
korea - standard of living on the rise and getting close to on-par with the west.
japan - stable, always has jobs, not growing, not doing much exciting, but high quality of life.
those are places i have lived in or visited often enough. never been to chile - but i hear, due to resources, it has a high standard of living.
tizen is worked on by a totally different software team - unrelated to android or bada. note though, it's still the same ui designers.
sorry, but that's EFL (enlightenment foundation libraries), not e17. EFL are the libs we have been slaving away at built FOR e17, but e17 itself is not out and released yet.
this doesn't mean e17 itself isn't actually stable - it is. it's used every single day by 1000's of people, and is the WM used by tizen too. we just have high quality bars we place on releases. for us a release is what most projects take 4 or 5 releases to get done. we just don't try and release buggy, unstable and half-baked stuff.
indeed. pentium-m @ 600mhz, 512m ram, zero gfx accel (all dumb fb), e17 with full compositing using the software rendering canvas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESwhnWM1cKw
sure not perfect, but considering the hardware and what it is being asked to do, not bad. thanks to having to do pixel readback from x it could be about 2x faster for window updates. we might be able to shortcut this specifically for EFL apps, though not generically for all. also don't forget if you have a GPU it can happily use opengl for compositing too which gets rid of the readback and it's all accelerated then.
correct. and the original author granted use (and re-distribution) rights under the terms of the GPL. the GPL(v2) does not require that you, as someone who holds the source simply make what you got plus all current modification freely available at all. It requires that you pass on those rights to whomever you distribute to (and distribution can come with a fee if you so wish), and that does NOT mean the original authors OR just any general joe. ONLY the people you distribute to must you either supply the source + your changes, OR provide a written offer to supply the source being optionally ably to charge a nominal fee covering the distribution costs of that source (e.g. cost of a cd, postage etc.).
until the original author buys the software from them he's not able to exercise these rights granted under the GPL as those rights extend "forwards" i.e to the person you distribute to.
Where did the OP say this? I read the OP and nowhere did he say he had actually got a copy of the source from the vendor with copyright stripped out. If he's paid the $49 and cot a copy with it stripped out then he definitely has a Copyright violation, but that wasn't stated in the post.
If your software were a compiled language (eg c/c++/java etc.) then if they didn't provide the original source OR didn't provide it on request by you AS A CUSTOMER (the license is granting rights to the people they distribute to - ie customer), then they violate. If they have put the php through some code obfuscator and don't provide the original source before obfuscation, then this would come under the "compiled" category i'd say. What they are doing is perfectly legal under the GPL.
If it's nice to do or not is another matter, but it doesn't violate GPL unless they do the above.. and this ONLY applies to people they distribute the product to - i.e. that person gains the rights under the GPL and if they do not follow through with them they violate the GPL as the license was distributed to them.
The idea that everyone must make the source of their GPL product available for free is not enshrined inside the GPL at all. It's simply something many do because its simply easier and more practical, less work, or it is nicer to the community that provided them with the source to begin with, but nowhere in the actual legalities of the license does it require this (3rd parties in this case means only 3rd parties you distribute the program to, not all 3rd parties in the world).
Good luck man! all the best in whatever you do next. It's been a long time since you started /. and I remember its infancy well. Thumbs up on a job well done. :)
6:35PM ~ > grep typedef /usr/local/include/evas-1/Evas.h | grep Evas_Object ...
typedef struct _Evas_Object Evas_Object;
void * eh? may i ask that you actually use correct facts?
for comparisons i'm afraid I can't help you as the examples are in-house, but simply scrolling around, measuring startup time of the app and more alone has EFL pulling in general easily 2x the framerate of GTK+. GTK+ cannot overlay or blend widgets at all (not without clutter and redirection rendering). EFL can. EFL can do it with OpenGL or without. Clutter requires OpenGL, so no non-GL option. Disk size of EFL libraries combined vs GTK+GDK etc. is much smaller. You'll just have to trust me. if you don't - that's fine, but I don't make idle claims. Historically I hope that I have shown that I FIRST write the code THEN i benchmark, THEN i make claims. most software likes to make claims long before code has even been started. So if you apply those standards - you'll be disappointed. You'll just have to wait until products are out.
Maybe the fact that Samsung has tried many toolkits and has backed EFL says something? Samsung's culture is one of optimization. It must be fast. It must be smooth. They like EFL because it meets their view of the world of wanting optimal solutions. If you believe that it's all hot air, then... I guess Samsung simply hasn't done its homework or compared anything and 100's of engineers are wasting their time using EFL. I can't change your view. If you think that "maybe there is something to this" and try things out - you might be surprised. I'm sorry - I don't spend my days writing the same app in GTK+, Qt and EFL just to make you happy with perfect comparisons. Can't help you there.
A bit of both actually.
I have to thank you for the comment. Mostly because it is actually thoughtful and realistic. You actually followed history and development and though many people - even you, lost patience, you've come to see that the stubbornness of EFL development actually has paid off. It's achieved what it was meant to. :) Now we get to improve it even more while people can build things on top of a stable API.
You can just have a ford model-t like everyone else. as long as you like black. if you don't... too bad. :)
Seriously, it's choice. it's competition. If you didn't have choice or competition everything would stagnate. You are free to say that EFL, or GTK+ or Qt or whatever just isn't your choice. It may not provide more than what you currently use, but other people may find it a benefit. There is a big cost in working with an existing framework. You have to carry its history along with you and baggage. When you disagree you can't just change it - you have to fight politics. Some people don't like to fight politics and want to just get on with proving their ideas right and writing the code. Reasons are many. It's mostly the reality of competition. No one entity funds all the efforts and forces everyone into 1 way of doing it. Reality is that people compete. Same with libraries and API's. Toolkits. Frameworks. They can compete, so they do. Hopefully it means choice for developers to use a toolkit more in-tune with their goals.
That shall no longer happen with 1.x EFL libs. :) thought elementary that it relies on is still not 1.0 yet... just wait. :)
i think he was implying that version 1.0 MEANS something different to different development teams. same with 2.0, 3.0 etc. etc. - where one group will rapidly move up from 1.0 to 2.0 then 3.0, 4.0 and jump to 7.0 or whatever another will lurk in 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and maybe take many years to hit 1.0. it mostly centers around "what meaning do you attach to 1.0, 2.0 etc." is 1.0 just "its ok and seems to work" vs "this is golden and well polished. very solid and you have mountain of features and are very unlikely to hit problems".
it always varies. wine took a LONG time to get to 1.0 - so did EFL. Linux kernel still hasn't gone beyond 2.x. KDE and Qt have hit 4.x by now. Windows is throwing 7.x around. MacOS is talking version 10.x... very big difference in numbers and vast difference in meanings.
Also look at Enna - the Geexbox Home media center distro.
We're improving the website and documentation. There is stuff there. The problem is all those demos and screenshots and tutorials take a lot of time. take a dig through the website - about page, wiki and so on. you can look on youtube for videos of what EFL can and has done.
I'm still here (@ Samsung). What comes out and when is not something I can say, but Enlightenment and EFL are in heavy use here at Samsung R&D. Samsung Mobile platform R&D isn't a small place either. EFL actually does what very little else can do and generally faster or much faster, with more flexibility and smaller footprint. And it improves day by day. Expect a stream of releases and new libraries, and so on over time. Priority is in getting things right for long-term longevity, not short-term publicity. So wait and see what appears.
i'm going to have to giggle at that... considering that NOTHING uses gl on your desktop for everything - compositor - ok. games ok. for rendering your scrollbars, buttons, text, and more... i suggest you try it one day... and find out just how "solid" opengl is... you may be in for a shock.
opengl is good as what it is USED for - the examples above. try using it for all the 2d stuff that has been done for years... and you'll hit issues. gtk an qt still almost entirely work with software rendering - very little of 2d beyond blits and fills is accelerated in x - x will just render with the cpu - or cairo will... or... you get the idea. software is alive and well for this way of rendering. opengl is struggling to get there. in some cases its doing well - in others its not.
you may be surprised on what consumes more battery. i have seen the case where the cpu will render faster with less overall power usage than the gpu. but in the end EFL gives you the choice - at runtime even. many rendering paths are supported. choose the one that is best for you. in the end what matters is the user experience - if you offload to a gpu, use the cpu or whatever - the user needs to feel that things work nicely. if a cpu manages 30fps and gpu manages 15fps - the cpu will almost always provide a better experience - even if you now have to share it between rendering and logic (invariably you are not rendering when you are doing logic. most logic is done to set up the screen state - then you scroll around and do things with that logic. games are the exception here, but generally in 2d ui land your cpu is idle anyway - but consuming power)
why do you include e17? have you looked at e17's config files - ever? they are not eeven text. they are binary - a format serialised and unserialised from data structures in ram. it is entirely designed about making the CODE provide configuration - not a text editor. "with some convolution it is possible to decode the config as a structured text format and edit then re-encode, but very few people know how to do that as its a hidden command-line tool you never know is there. it's mostly used during compilation for generating initial configs).
i count 41 configuration modules alone in e17 - thats probably 50+ config dialogs... e17 is far from forcing you to edit ttext configs - it's exposed almost all config in the gui - somewhere. there's at least 3 config dialogs that will affect font size (theme, font config dialog and ui scaling - where scaling is what people REALLY want - not font size. they want to say "i cant make that out - make it bigger" and that includes text, icons and more).
i will admit that many dialogs can be improved in their content, labelling and more - and will admit that there are so many config options and dialogs that people get lost and don't find the option they want - but it is there, in a gui, with a simple click/drag + ok...
the elephant in the room is that e17's libraries (efl) have been using full accelerated pipelines like opengl to render years before gnome or kde did... maybe you never saw the original evas gl rendering demos... all hidden behind a canvas api that rendered any way you like... the engine got revamped recently thanks to samsung for opengl-es2.0... not just opengl (full opengl).
(note - ubuntu's problem is the lack of ability to ship the binary-only powervr opengl drivers themseleves - thus their hands are tied. manufacutrers who make full products invariably have access o the driver source and have ship them on their devices).
so.. e17 does... it just ALSO has a highly tuned software engine for when the pipeline doesn't work... /me goes back to his e17 on an arm soc with full gl-es2 compositing, tear-free rendering and silky smooth scrolling with many layers of blending and smoothness
in e17 there is a wonderful full complete ui scaling factor - u can ask it to be automatically adjusted from dpi - if x dpi is right, or just slide the slider to where you like it... so moot for 17 - not to mention a font config dialog when themes support textclasses...
read the last sentence. no full-stop. he just registered his /. account "now" (very recently) to troll comments. if i had said: :) (notice the fullstop. 1 vs 2 sentences. different meanings entirely). :)
"thanks for registering your account. now for some trolling fun" then you'd definitely have a point!
"developer community alienated by Lauer & Co. GNOME knew why they kicked Rasterman out."
WTF? One thing to say here. No one kicked me out of GNOME - get your history right. Do your research. You demonstrate some serious ignorance here. I chose to not contribute anymore due to GNOME going one way, and me going another. I had plans for E and they had plans for GNOME as of course "GNOME needs no window manager. it can work with all of them!". Check your history mate.
Thanks for registering your account now for some trolling fun.