Enlightenment Returns To Bring Ubuntu To ARM

mu22le writes "Enlightenment, the daring window manager that disappeared from our collective radar years ago, is back to bring Ubuntu to ARM. The bet that E developers made years ago to neglect 3D, compositing, and make a fast and versatile 2.5d engine may have finally paid off. The current popularity of ARM-based devices could be a niche that the Enlightenment Foundation Libraries can fill comfortably."

Comments

Fonts are too small

[BadAnalogyGuy]

THE TEXT IS TOO SMALL. YOU CAN'T READ THIS ON A LUCID-BASED NETBOOK.

With the size of the screen, you'd think that a GUI that emphasized ease of use would have bigger text and icons.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Sir_Lewk]

If it's too small for you maybe you should try, I don't know, increasing it's size?

Not exactly rocket science dude.

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

There is no GUI option to change the font size in Enlightenment but there is a way to change the font size; it involves editing config files. Although I should point out that Enlightenment puts a higher focus on having a light footprint than usability, it just doesn't seem to take it as far as Fluxbox does.

Re:Fonts are too small

[BadAnalogyGuy]

What is this? A config file for ants? How can we expect to increase the font size if we can't event read the words?

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

E17 doesn't give you the option to do that without going into the config files and manually editing them. It's not something that is any problem for more experienced Linux users but it is the kind of thing that may hurt adoption of E-17 Ubuntu.

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

I take it that you've never really used terminal commands much. Alt-Ctrl-Insert launches Eterm which you can then edit the relevant text files using nano, vi or whatever editor is your preference. If you do it right, it is possible to do all of this without the monitor even functioning let alone some small text. But yes it is somewhat of a pain in the arse for users not accustomed to working in a terminal by text commands alone.

Re:Fonts are too small

[BadAnalogyGuy]

it is possible to do all of this without the monitor even functioning

Who am I? Anne freaking Frank?

Re:Fonts are too small

[quixos]

helen keller

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

No but my point is that editing a text file without being able to read the font used in the menus isn't the impossible task you seem to think it is. Everything you need to do the job has a shortcut for it. Opening a terminal, launching Nano, editing and saving said config files all can be done with text commands and keyboard shortcuts.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

no, the light from the monitor alerts the nazis, he meant anne frank

Re:Fonts are too small

[MrNaz]

One would think that Ubuntu would package their distro with the defaults set to reasonable values. They do this for many other packages, so I don't see why the window manager would be any different.

Also, kudos to Enlightenment for sticking to their philosophy; I prefer a WM that helps me just get on with my work. I'm not a Mac user who likes staring at the shiny toolbar renderings and 3D compositing effects while watching billable hours go by. Eye candy is for time wasting. Computers are tools. Aesthetics has its place, but when more effort is spent on making a UI pretty as opposed to functional, then the whole point of the exercise has been lost.

I blame Apple, for turning computers into fashion accessories.

Re:Fonts are too small

[BrokenHalo]

I should point out that Enlightenment puts a higher focus on having a light footprint than usability...

Funny you should say that - back in ~'97 or so I used to use Enlightenment as a WM with Gnome. In those days we all thought of it as a big badass resource-hungry monster. I never did get the hang of using Enlightenment as a full desktop environment, however. I have no problem with editing config files, but I never bothered spending the time learning how to get applications launched. Sort of defeats the object if you have to fire them up from an xterm... ;-)

Hopefully it's come along a bit since then.

Re:Fonts are too small

[pchan-]

E17 doesn't give you the option to do that without going into the config files and manually editing them. It's not something that is any problem for more experienced Linux users but it is the kind of thing that may hurt adoption of E-17 Ubuntu.

I'm an experienced Linux user. I write device drivers for a living. But I get home, the last thing I want to do is edit configuration files to change settings in my GUI. This is why, after 10 years of using Linux on the desktop, my next computer will be a Mac.

Re:Fonts are too small

[AndGodSed]

The catch is that you need to KNOW these commands. I spend a lot of time in terminal personally, but I can think that someone who does not know will struggle.

Re:Fonts are too small

[dyefade]

I'm not a Mac user who likes staring at the shiny toolbar renderings and 3D compositing effects while watching billable hours go by.

Nor am I, I'm a Mac user who gets on with his work. Congratulations on making wild generalisations based on the default animation style of a persons window manager...

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's hilarious that you say that while when you get down to it, OS X sports the most spartan of the major desktop environments, with the least eye candy. There's all of what, a metal/pinstripe finish, and a djini effect on minimizing windows? Possibly drop shadows here and there?

And you're playing the pretty vs. functional argument card on MacOS? It's possibly the most integrated and streamlined desktop UI as well. Either way, a little polish goes a long way, and providing a complete package (which includes a pleasant UI) isn't mutually exclusive with providing a functional environment. You need both, case in point stupidly small unreadable default font settings on this. You can provide all the functionality in the world, but it's useless if your UI is barely useable ass, a well designed UI provides functionality and usability. And anyone who uses the functionality vs. aesthetics argument to excuse neglecting the later, is neglecting the former in doing so.

Re:Fonts are too small

[the_womble]

You are an experienced Linux user and you think you need to edit config files to change setting in your GUI? It has not occurred to you to try using Gnome, KDE, LXDE, XFCE, ICE WM or numerous others that let you change settings from the GUI - have never edited a config file to change a KDE setting, and my desktop is very far from the defaults.

You are a liar - either an idiot, an astroturfer, or a troll.

Re:Fonts are too small

[the_womble]

[quote]Hopefully it's come along a bit since then.[/quote]

The decided to rewrite it. They lost the cool overlapping desktops feature, and it i unusably immature.

It was always lightweight used as a DE. I never tried it with Gnome.

Re:Fonts are too small

[deniable]

Thanks, keep up the good work selling Linux.

Re:Fonts are too small

[boxwood]

Good luck with that. I'm an experienced Linux user and I got a mac. Used MacOS for three months exclusively... never could get used to it. The thing is MacOS is designed to be intuitive, but not user friendly.

The thing is you don't have to tinker with configuration files in linux. Yes its there, but you don't have to do it. Have you actually tried just using the default Ubuntu install and not messing around with GUI settings? It's actually quite nice. The problem is you've gotten used to doing things a different way over the years and you know you can make things work the way you want it to if you find the right configuration file.

All MacOS does is remove the configuration options. So it forces you to get used it. Unfortunately, I never could. I usually have several things opened at once and switch between them. Under MacOS I have to push the F9, watch the pretty expose animation look around the screen, and then click on the app I want. Every time I push F9 apps are in a different spot. Under Ubuntu I just click on the item in the taskbar which is always on the screen and the task is always in the same spot (unless I reorder it by dragging it to a different spot in the taskbar). In MacOS I can cut and paste files to move them to a new folder. I can't set keyboard shortcuts to change songs in iTunes, I have to use the little remote control (which I've lost). etc, etc.

Under MacOS you are forced to do things the way Steve Jobs wants you to do them. With Linux you can do things whatever way you want to do them.

I can save you some money if you do the following: Instead of forcing yourself into doing things the way Steve Jobs wants you to do them, why not force yourself into doing things the way Mark Shuttleworth wants you to them? Install Ubuntu and keep the default GUI settings. Just resist the urge to tinker. I've found Ubuntu to have a better thought out user interface than MacOS.

Typing this from a MacBook Pro with Ubuntu. Just wish it had a pgdown, pgup, home, end, a second mouse button, more USB ports, a working audio in port, and especially DELETE key. I guess Steve Jobs never has to delete stuff that comes after the cursor so the Macbook Pro doesn't need it.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Gerzel]

He is right even if he is "selling" Linux. Gnome has far more gui options available in gui control panels than Windows even offers. The same goes for KDE and XFCE.

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

E17 is what runs on this hardware. I'm sure that if Gnome or KDE could run on it they'd base the ARM customized Ubuntu distro to use one of them instead. Problem is that Gnome and KDE use more resources than E17 does and E17 just doesn't have a GUI for changing certain settings. E17 isn't aiming to compete in the same areas that Gnome and KDE are. E17 is primarily used where computer resources are limited while Gnome and KDE are generally used on systems where computer resources aren't the major problem. Now if you've been using Linux for 10+ years, you probably have run into hardware that is crap by today's standards and would not run well with larger D.E.s.

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

Editing text config files is common for fluxbox and E17 but Gnome, XFCE and KDE rarely if ever require config file editing to change settings. I would imagine that is a large part of why they are far far more popular than E17 and Fluxbox. People could dig into the config files if they have to but I agree that it's just a "frak it! no more fiddling!" moment for most people.

Re:Fonts are too small

[micheas]

Ironically, when I first tried Enlightenment (in the '90s) It was the heavy weight eye-candy desktop that was sort of the compiz of the day. (I think I had a 300mhz CPU and a Voodoo video card IIRC)

Re:Fonts are too small

[wizardforce]

I agree. Which is why I commented on this in another post.

Re:Fonts are too small

[AndGodSed]

AH. I missed it.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Super duper whoosh. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Get off my lawn.

Re:Fonts are too small

[mathfeel]

I'd imagine near-future ARMS device would be like somewhere from smart phone to netbook for which the manufacture/carrier/vendor would just change it to some sensible default setting.

TFA says they are doing this mostly because of ARMs video licensing problem. Still, kudo's to Ubuntu for recognizing that on a netbook a good 2D experience is more important than a full fetched 3D experiment . My Atom netbook, while runs compiz smoothly, currently uses awesome. On a small screen, you are probably going to have all your windows maximized anyway. Translucent windows only makes stuff very confusing.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an experienced Linux user and I got a mac. Used MacOS for three months exclusively... never could get used to it.

It doesn't appear that you put any effort into it.

All MacOS does is remove the configuration options. So it forces you to get used it.

On the contrary, it lets you get straight to work, and when you run into specific Many of them, yes. None of your examples captures this notion. There are certain brick walls that you do have to get used to, but there are many layers of customization possible in almost everything. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single thing that I absolutely can't do from the OS X desktop that I can on Ubuntu.

The difference is that there are far, far fewer necessary configuration options to get started, which is a huge timesaver.

Every time I push F9 apps are in a different spot.

Only if you move them. The Exposé sequence is based on the position of the windows on your desktop. It's not random. If none of your windows move, the order won't change.

Under Ubuntu I just click on the item in the taskbar which is always on the screen and the task is always in the same spot

You could always try clicking on the application's icon in the Dock, which is always on the screen (unless you move it). Those icons don't move, either, unless you move them. Just like Exposé windows.

In MacOS I can cut and paste files to move them to a new folder.

I assume you mean can't. With good reason: it breaks the metaphor. When you cut text and fail to paste it, it disappears. That behavior is undesirable for files, so they just get put back where they were (unlike cut text). Finder is meant to be used with a mouse and multiple windows. There's always Terminal or third-party file managers that can be more Windows Explorer-like (Ubuntu's model) if that's your preference.

Moving isn't exactly difficult: just open up adjacent Finder windows and drag. Keyboard users can use mv in Terminal. If you really want to enable this functionality, it's trivial to implement in AppleScript, which you can assign to a keyboard shortcut. There's also Filecutter if you really just want the functionality restored.

I can't set keyboard shortcuts to change songs in iTunes, I have to use the little remote control (which I've lost)

This is the craziest one. There are about 19,000 different ways to set global keyboard shortcuts to switch back/forward in playlists in iTunes.

Just wish it had a pgdown, pgup, home, end,

Fn+left, right, up, down

a second mouse button

Oh come on. Two finger tap, control-click, buy a multi-button mouse.

a working audio in port

Care to elaborate?

and especially DELETE key.

Fn+delete is forward delete.

This is all pretty basic stuff that my kids managed. Certainly, no sophisticated Linux user could actually go three months without figuring all of those things out.

As a long-time Debian and Ubuntu user myself, I find it particularly comical that you think Ubuntu is well-thought-out. Configuration options are scattered about, the menubar has a truly bizarre default arrangement, and the application menu is far from complete. It's much more likely the case that "well thought out" means "the one I'm more familiar with".

There are some things that are just not customizable in OS X, it's true. But so much more of it is than you seem to realize, both internally and with third-party extensions. Additional features can always be added to suit users, as adding is easy, but you can't ever get less than the minimum. Just look at the Firefox disputes that erupt between the "I want a lean, clean browser...you can clutter it with a

Re:Fonts are too small

[Bert64]

The fonts should be perfectly readable so long as your screen informs X of its physical dimensions, so X can work out the appropriate DPI setting...
Infact, the text should then be the same physical size regardless of resolution or screen size. The problem is that some laptop panels don't do this, so X cannot work out the DPI and uses a default, a default which is usable but not ideal for typical size CRT screens but unsuitable for very small netbook screens.

Re:Fonts are too small

[obarthelemy]

No. The big icon bar at the bottom is a major waste of space. I read here on /. that even Apple's UI guru wanted to get rid of it, but they kept it because it looked so good in the store.

Anyhooo, I guess the issue is not only about default settings, but also about how easily you can change them. I can tweak stuff easily in Windows (but that's 'coz I'm used to it, and not afraid to look around). I haven't found MacOS easier to tweak than Windows, just different enough to be hard to grasp. And Linux is a bit to a lot harder... Linux devs need to get that 99.99% of users don't want to edit config files nor have to read the manual, and are too new to feel confident tinkering such an ominous OS.

Re:Fonts are too small

[TheRaven64]

The elephant in the room is that the only reason that anyone is considering E17 is that there are no proper drivers for the hardware. The current generation of ARM SoCs that are being used for this kind of application all come with a GPU that can handle OpenGL ES 2.0. That means that they have a fully programmable pipeline and are massively overpowered for running something like Compiz. With proper drivers, they could handle pretty much any effects that you wanted to throw at them, including things like ripple effects (which require pixel shaders).

E17 doesn't use 3D acceleration, so it suddenly has an advantage when you are on a platform with missing 3D drivers. Add 3D drivers, and suddenly E17 is using the CPU while everything else is using the GPU, and E17 will be dumped because it gives you less battery life.

Re:Fonts are too small

[siloko]

but when more effort is spent on making a UI pretty as opposed to functional, then the whole point of the exercise has been lost.

er you're missing the point with your trenchant views!! Quite often Pretty = Functional. When someone spends time on making a UI look nice they are often making it more usable too, either by design or by accident.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Civil_Disobedient]

How can we expect to increase the font size if we can't event read the words?

One word for you:
memorization.

Re:Fonts are too small

[dvlhrns]

That's just totally not true anymore. There are gui config dialogs for pretty much everything now.

Re:Fonts are too small

[dvlhrns]

"E17 just doesn't have a GUI for changing certain settings" ... Umm, what settings would those be ?? Have you even tried it lately ? There are gui configs for pretty much everything. Please, check the facts before posting misinformation

Re:Fonts are too small

[c_forq]

In case you didn't know you can move that bar to the side, set it to hide, and change the size.

Re:Fonts are too small

[characterZer0]

I use E17 (on i386 and amd64). Settings -> Settings Panel -> Look -> Fonts. I can change font size.

Did they take that out for the Ubuntu/ARM release?

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, command-tab switches between apps and command-tilde (~) switches between different windows in the same app. Depending on the revision of MBP F7 through F9 should control switching/pausing of music. Oh, fn+arrow keys will get you your home/end pgup/pgn too.

While I think your call on the delete/insert key is valid, the rest is just BS and/or FUD. You (apparently) spent a tidy sum on a macbook pro. Try actually using the OS provided. Steve Jobs/Mark Shuttleworth got nothing to do with it, a startling lack of adaptability, or lack of manual reading is more to blame.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Under Ubuntu I just click on the item in the taskbar which is always on the screen and the task is always in the same spot

or, you could use wmjump:
http://freshmeat.net/projects/wmjump

or just Alt-tab, or any one of many other things

Re:Fonts are too small

[drinkypoo]

Only if you move them. The Exposé sequence is based on the position of the windows on your desktop. It's not random. If none of your windows move, the order won't change.

Unless a window has opened or closed. If you now have an odd number of windows, then there is a significant chance that all of your windows have moved. If you now have an even number of windows, then at least the apps on the last line have moved.

You could always try clicking on the application's icon in the Dock, which is always on the screen (unless you move it). Those icons don't move, either, unless you move them.

Uh, the Dock is a gigantic failure in UI because it expands and contracts as new icons appear, representing new windows. Only if all the apps you use are pinned will the dock begin to work as you suggest, but every time you connect a removable device, insert a CD, or experience a popup window from the OS, everything in the Dock moves. So you are lying...

Just like Exposé windows.

Yes, just like you lied about those.

In MacOS I can cut and paste files to move them to a new folder.

I assume you mean can't. With good reason: it breaks the metaphor. When you cut text and fail to paste it, it disappears.

So what? Windows solves this fine by fading icons you've cut. Or maybe that's patented? Snicker.

Moving isn't exactly difficult: just open up adjacent Finder windows and drag.

Harder for some people with trouble using the mouse.

Keyboard users can use mv in Terminal.

Enjoy the lengthy Apple paths. Also, using mv breaks the metaphor (snicker #2) of directories-as-Apps-with-a-single-icon.

Linux with Compiz presents a superior interface to OSX because it does all the stuff OSX does but better and more configurable. I disabled my gnome-panel and use avant-window-navigator from the AWN testing team PPA, and I use compiz' hot corners to give me a live mipmapped view of my four virtual desktops in one corner, and to line up all my windows (again, mipmapped and nice and smooth) when I mouse to the other corner. And I get to retain all the keyboard-controlled goodness at the same time. OSX has somewhat smoother animations since Xgl was canned, and while we wait for a replacement to not suck, but I don't need the magic lamp effect to my dock. It is kind of nice, though, and I miss it a little. So I'll give OSX one consolation point.

Don't pretend that OSX's lack of configurability is an asset. It is not. Having one default behavior is valuable, but preventing choice is not a benefit to the user. It is a benefit to the company. And when people see my Compiz desktop, they start throwing rocks at actual macs. Of course, to be fair, when people see iLife, they start throwing rocks at Linux... but that's not because of the OS GUI.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Conceded assholes like you need to learn how to read.

Right back at you.
The dude specifically said he was buying a Mac because he wanted to get away from editing config files, and in so doing one must presume he is ditching Linux. Suggesting other desktops is entirely logical.

But I agree with other posters that the post in question was a troll.

Re:Fonts are too small

[biryokumaru]

I've been running the E17 DR since ~2005 and that hasn't been true for quite some time. You do not need to edit config files, and in fact when you install E17 the first time it even has an option for a GUI specifically designed for Netbooks. Maybe the Ubuntu version is just broken.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

"...and especially DELETE key."

The joy of linux is that you can edit a configuration file to easily repurpose the second superfluous enter key (the one for the number pad) to be delete, works marvellously for me.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Provocateur]

Better yet, I not only shrink them, but convert those cartoony icons to their tasteful text equivalents (courtesy of Laurent Baumann). That way, Jack Bauer will ask *me* for the terrorist's IP address, with my why-so-serious desktop with hardly any eye-candy and plain gray wall, instead of asking the pretty hawt little co-worker with her waay too colorful fisher price icons and aquarium screensaver. BTW, Jack, it's 127.0.0.1. /me leans back in chair, convinced of a job well-done

Re:Fonts are too small

[marcosdumay]

"Umm, what settings would those be ??"

From the great great parent, it is changing font size. That shouldn't be too hard to fix anyway, if the devs are paying atention.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Zoolander joke, dude.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Provocateur]

...and the joy of E17 is you can have windows shade Left and shade right. Conkys and gkrellms can shade in the direction of the edge that they are close to. Also bound to a key.

The 2.5D does wonders on old hardware, but it came at a price: I miss E16's hi-quality snapshot pager. I tried going back, but the themes seem dated now. =(

Re:Fonts are too small

[DarkOx]

Yes to the point where its sometimes faster to edit the config files than it is to try and find what you want in the GNOME UI.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

With good reason: it breaks the metaphor. When you cut text and fail to paste it, it disappears. That behavior is undesirable for files, so they just get put back where they were (unlike cut text).

In fact, shouldn't even the text cut function work just like the Windows "cut-and-paste-files"? The cut function should require a destination to be meaningful operation, otherwise the existence of the delete function would be meaningless.

Re:Fonts are too small

[pizzach]

It took me more than 3 years to really start warming up to linux. The command line isn't as powerful as it could be until you realize how you can string things together in shell scripts and really start taking advantage of it.

Under MacOS I have to push the F9, watch the pretty expose animation look around the screen, and then click on the app I want. Every time I push F9 apps are in a different spot. Under Ubuntu I just click on the item in the taskbar which is always on the screen and the task is always in the same spot (unless I reorder it by dragging it to a different spot in the taskbar). In MacOS I can cut and paste files to move them to a new folder. I can't set keyboard shortcuts to change songs in iTunes, I have to use the little remote control (which I've lost). etc, etc.

Yes, there was life before expose appeared on the Mac. I never use expose on Macs because there are other options that I have grown familiar with that work better for me because I am more organized. When you discover option-click, your life changes. Option click outside of an application window to hide it. Option click in the doc to hide current application as you go to the next one. It works insanely well, but most people like to exclusively rely on expose, or quibble about how they don't like expose.

People complain about a lock of options on Mac OS X when they haven't even explored the options they currently have. Many times options that Windows and Linux don't have.

Re:Fonts are too small

[imroy]

Um, excuse me? What SoC are you talking about? With some simple googling, here's two videos - 1, 2 - showing 3D demos running on the OMAP3-powered Beagle Board. The linked news item (TFA) even mentions an OpenGL ES 'engine' for Evas being contributed by Samsung. 3D drivers are certainly available for the PowerVR GPU in the OMAP3 (albeit binary-only), and Enlightenment would seem to be able to use 3D acceleration.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you used enlightenment?

It is the paragon of senseless eyecandy.

Just because it is 2.5d and not 3d does not mean it is a simple appearance.

For simple composting interface see xfce, not E. E is worse than kde 3.x with all the candy on.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

E17 could use hardware acceleration too. I don't understand your post. You could use compiz AND e17, e17 is just a desktop environment.

Re:Fonts are too small

[raster]

in e17 there is a wonderful full complete ui scaling factor - u can ask it to be automatically adjusted from dpi - if x dpi is right, or just slide the slider to where you like it... so moot for 17 - not to mention a font config dialog when themes support textclasses...

Re:Fonts are too small

[raster]

the elephant in the room is that e17's libraries (efl) have been using full accelerated pipelines like opengl to render years before gnome or kde did... maybe you never saw the original evas gl rendering demos... all hidden behind a canvas api that rendered any way you like... the engine got revamped recently thanks to samsung for opengl-es2.0... not just opengl (full opengl).

(note - ubuntu's problem is the lack of ability to ship the binary-only powervr opengl drivers themseleves - thus their hands are tied. manufacutrers who make full products invariably have access o the driver source and have ship them on their devices).

so.. e17 does... it just ALSO has a highly tuned software engine for when the pipeline doesn't work... /me goes back to his e17 on an arm soc with full gl-es2 compositing, tear-free rendering and silky smooth scrolling with many layers of blending and smoothness

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Before saying anything, you should perhaps get some real information. E17 use Evas to handle the graphics canvas and Evas does provide tons of different backend. OpenGL ES is one of them. E17 is the only window manager that can scale from hardware without any GPU, to hardware with just a blitter or hardware with full Open GL.

And in all of this scenario, it is highly optimised. My bet that at a graphic equivalent result, you will use less ressource with E17 than with any other WM. Oh, and E17 is the only WM that propose a composit manager that doesn't require OpenGL hardware.

And no the main interest of E17 is not its graphics layer, but it's theme/layout engine: Edje. This give a real possibility to have one code that will run every where. Just change the theme, and you will have huge animation that can't run without a big GPU, or with another theme, you will be perfect on an e-book black and white screen.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

TheRaven, I usually quite enjoy your comments here and your work on LLVM/Etoile, so I will tell you without any of the trolling I'd do otherwise that you should take a look at the EFL, they do support OpenGL and OpenGL-ES, and the latter one (which is the one that is going to be mostly used on ARM devices) is getting some serious development and speedups. The thing is, the software renderer is *so* optimized as to make development on the other "accelerated" backends not so important right now. But they do exist, and if you want to, just come by #edevelop on Freenode and ask about it.

Re:Fonts are too small

[LWATCDR]

It shouldn't be all that hard to create a program to handle those configuration issues.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember the days of tentatively venturing from TWM to use Enlightenment during quiet days. Then everyone moved to WindowMaker.

Then KDE and Gnome came along to ruin it all :-(. :-p

Re:Fonts are too small

[ozmanjusri]

E17 doesn't give you the option to do that without going into the config files and manually editing them.

Are you sure?

I don't have an E17 install at the moment, but I'm certain there was a a setting under the Configuration menu.

Re:Fonts are too small

[calibre-not-output]

I agree in principle, but there are "beautifications" that make the UI more functional as well. The trick is moderation.

Re:Fonts are too small

[AvitarX]

My biggest complaint with OS X is the lack of consistency.

As they take away the "F" keys, shortcuts in design applications get taken away by the OS. The hide the dock shortcut took-over a shortcut in Quark.

Your comment highlights this with "Depending on the revision of MBP". F9 is part of the expose shortcuts, except it's not. I think F8 is the desktop wall, except also not.

Re:Fonts are too small

[mR.bRiGhTsId3]

Mini-addendum. "a working audio in port" My MacBook has a single audio port. There is a global preference that toggles out/in behavior.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

E17 started out as eye candy. it can be made to be just as pretty as osx. that and it can easily fit in 32 megs ram, something that modern users balk at

Re:Fonts are too small

[Luyseyal]

Eh, I don't know about that version of E17, but you can change them by going to Settings->Look->Fonts in the desktop version in Debian.

-l

Re:Fonts are too small

[Luyseyal]

(Repost)

Eh, I don't know about that version of E17, but you can change them by going to Settings->Look->Fonts in the desktop version in Debian.

-l

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

the watery effect at the bottom! ouch!

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

So press Command+Option+D.

Sorted. How hard was that?

(Or if you don;t know the keyboard command, go to System Preferences, click on "Dock" and tick the box that says "automatically hide and show the dock" - you can also tun off the animation here if you like, and change the size of the Dock itself, its position on the screen and whether it magnifies when you hover over it)

It's pretty intuitive really - all of the UI options are in System Prefs. Even better, the help box on that app responds to the Windows keywords for what you are changing. For example, if you type in "Wallpaper" it highlights the Desktop and Screensaver icon, and indicates that on Mac OS X that is called "Desktop Picture". So, if you have found it hard to use, you must not have read the little intro thing Apple produced which mentions this. (I just tried it - it is still working in 10.6).

I know a few people who keep their Dock on the left side of their screen because the display is wider than it is tall and they like it over on that side. Can you put the start menu/toolbar thing on the sides of the screen in Vista? I know you can change the size of it, but I haven't been in front of a Windows box since XP.

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

Command+Tab and Command+~ are the shortcuts you are looking for. No need to use Exposé - I am a pretty hardcore Mac user and I very rarely ever use it. Only really ever use the "show Desktop" command so I can grab a file and drop it onto an open app. I don't switch apps or windows with Exposé.

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

Oh, btw, Fn+Backspace is delete. Perhaps it should have its own key, but it does exist on a Mac laptop KB.

Re:Fonts are too small

[badpazzword]

Yes, you can move the start bar to all sides (through drag and drop).

Re:Fonts are too small

[badpazzword]

Related: https://listman.redhat.com/mirrors/LDP/linuxfocus/common/images/figure29-2.jpg

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

On the specific laptops they put an icon on the key if they have moved the location - on the bluetooth KB they put the exposé and dashboard keys over on F3,4,5, but you can change it easily in the system prefs to whatever key combo you need.

The Adobe and Quark apps have always been a bit problematic with shortcuts. The apps themselves have so many, they always seem to clash. What I hate about the Adobe CS suite is that they block the system key combos that clash - for example Command+H is hide app in *everything* except Adobe Apps, where I believe it is "hide selection", and then they made Hide Photoshop Command+Shift+H.

I just wish they could be consistent! In pretty much everything else though, the shortcuts follow the system shortcuts, and you can change some of these in System Prefs, and define application specific ones if you need. (I just checked - it doesn't look like you can edit the "master" ones from here, like command+Q and command+H etc).

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

Good to know. Same as the Mac then, although I don't know if you can drag it to do this - you have to right click on the divider and you can choose screen position

Re:Fonts are too small

[alan_dershowitz]

I'm with you, man. Nobody else has problems with cut and paste files, just the Mac. It breaks the metaphor, but so does dozens of other things they've done to add glitz over the years. (btw, select, drag, hold down the apple key and release mouse button to cut and paste across file systems.) I am used to the OS X user interface, but it took me YEARS to get used to it. There are still things I find annoying. I am not sure what to say on the Expose thing. I can hit f9 over and over and the windows will NOT tile into the same place.

Here are some things I would love to have the option of on Mac OS X:

* Solid window border
* no drop shadows or fading
* remove transparency in menus
* Minimize with no effect
* focus follows mouse

The first four are eminently doable and there is no reason for not having the option other than the fact that Apple is a walled garden. The last one, I am told, is not possible to implement fully correctly on OS X because of assumptions the OS API makes about windows being in focus. Oh well.

In defense of Apple, many annoyances have been fixed since back when I first started using OS X 1.2. Adding alt-tab was great, expose is excellent, so is Spaces. The combination of all three of these speed up my workflow tremendously. It is my environment of choice, but I won't kiss Jobs ass. Some things should be configurable and they just aren't because the OS appearance is a marketing tool for them. I don't care much how stupid Gnome on Ubuntu supposedly looks because I can change it to whatever I want and be happy. Not so on a Mac.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Draek]

Same goes for Windows and the registry, and OSX and their XML config files. Your point?

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Conceded assholes like you need to learn how to read.

And conceited assholes like you need to learn how to spell.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Draek]

I assume you mean can't. With good reason: it breaks the metaphor.

I'll tell you what breaks the metaphor: the fact that it's a fucking computer instead of a real, solid desktop with actual dead-tree folders in it. *FUCK* the metaphor, Cut&Paste has become an integral part of how regular users think of their computer desktops, Windows has recognized that, Linux has recognized that and it's about bloody time that Macs recognize that.

There's always Terminal or third-party file managers that can be more Windows Explorer-like (Ubuntu's model) if that's your preference.

Yeah, that'll fly really well for grandma. Just install this small app from this shady-looking website to enable some basic functionality in your $1k+ desktop.

Oh come on. Two finger tap, control-click, buy a multi-button mouse.

Sucks, sucks, and unavailable for a laptop's touchpad respectively.

Fn+delete is forward delete.

Ahh, so intuitive and comfortable. Didn't we learn anything from Emacs' finger chords? basic functionality shouldn't require you to play pianist on your computer keyboard.

This is all pretty basic stuff that my kids managed. Certainly, no sophisticated Linux user could actually go three months without figuring all of those things out.

Good for you. I was making money doing DOS tech support when I was 8, I guess that means a simple CLI is all anybody should ever need, and fuck GUIs right?

As a long-time Debian and Ubuntu user myself, I find it particularly comical that you think Ubuntu is well-thought-out. Configuration options are scattered about, the menubar has a truly bizarre default arrangement, and the application menu is far from complete. It's much more likely the case that "well thought out" means "the one I'm more familiar with".

Exactly, you're far too used to OSX to notice the idiocy of its interfaces and, as result, find Debian and Ubuntu "bizarre". Lemme guess, you think the same of Windows, right? oh, don't worry, I can tell.

Start simple and let users add what they personally like is a recipe that works. How about asking the question, "how can I do what I want?"

The problem is that when the simplest answer is "install Windows or Linux on this", as in the GP's case, you've already lost.

Re:Fonts are too small

[AvitarX]

Yeah, you can.

But it sure makes me appreciate windows where there is a special key (command) for global shortcuts, and apps can do as they please.

And I don't find moving OS shortcuts, even with pictograms a good solution personally, as shortcuts are about muscle memory.

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

You can set that behaviour for OS X too - swapping the behaviour of the function key so that it either registers an F key when depressed or the special function (brightness/expose/dashboard/volume etc). This is in the System Prefs.

You can also swap those features to a different key combo, featuring command, shift, option or control or any combination of those if you want.

Re:Fonts are too small

[stephanruby]

You've heard of blindfold chess. It's the same principle here, except for this test to be considered valid, there must also be a hooker giving you a blow job and a psychopath pointing a gun to your head.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux with Compiz presents a superior interface to OSX because it does all the stuff OSX does but better and more configurable."

Hmm, generally compiz annoys me a lot in Ubuntu The animations I encounter the most in Compiz:

- Windows wobbly effect when moving windows
- Windows animation when ever a new window opens or closes. This happens for dialog boxes too.
- Workspace sliding effect (maybe this is gone in 9.10)?

OS X has none of these. And none of these are necessary. I am constantly waiting for all these tiny animations to finish.

Now you could just say turn them off. Except there is a bug with Compiz in Ubuntu 9.10 that prevents you from alt-tabbing backwards through your workspaces. So the only way to do this is to turn all the options on and use that Apple-clone sliding window view thing.

Re:Fonts are too small

[drinkypoo]

Now you could just say turn them off. Except there is a bug with Compiz in Ubuntu 9.10 that prevents you from alt-tabbing backwards through your workspaces.

Link or it didn't happen. I don't have this problem. I used the static switcher, and the other switcher, and now I actually use the flip switcher because I have enough graphics card to do it gracefully. None of them fail(ed) to shift-alt-tab on Jaunty or Karmic.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Fred_A]

Good luck with that. I'm an experienced Linux user and I got a mac. Used Mac OS for three months exclusively... never could get used to it.

I used Tiger (Mac OS 10.4) for a bit over a year before giving up and going back to Linux and KDE. I never found it especially easy to use, its I18N was poor (especially the way it managed extended Latin characters). And the disk layout made absolutely no sense, with its mix of Unix and semi-user friendly directories.
And coming from Linux/Unix it really felt cramped (but then so does Windows).

My iBook now lives a new life as a paperweight since it's not even comfortable to use as a regular laptop with its weird Apple keyboard and broken mousepad (a proper mouse has at least *3* buttons !). I did try, I never could figure try what was so awesome with the fruit company. Never worked for me.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless a window has opened or closed.

"The Exposé sequence is based on the position of the windows on your desktop. It's not random. If none of your windows move, the order won't change."

Change the sequence, change the order in Exposé. Adding or removing windows changes the arrangement of your desktop and thus the arrangement of the vector paths to the Exposé grid. If you prefer to keep a constant sequence to app switching, there's Cmd-Tab just for you.

Uh, the Dock is a gigantic failure in UI because it expands and contracts as new icons appear, representing new windows.

This is different from the behavior of a task bar (the comparison the other user drew), how? Open new applications, and new references appear to it on the Dock. The order remains the same unless and until you rearrange the icons.

Only if all the apps you use are pinned will the dock begin to work as you suggest, but every time you connect a removable device, insert a CD,

Neither of which appears in the Dock. Liar.

or experience a popup window from the OS, everything in the Dock moves. So you are lying...

Nothing in the Dock changes order or moves about. It "moves" in the same way that the taskbar buttons change size when horizontal space begins to fill up. Again, you're complaining about behavior that is identical to Ubuntu and Windows.

So what? Windows solves this fine by fading icons you've cut.

That doesn't solve the problem at all. Fading the icon doesn't change the behavior on incomplete actions. Cut items should be erased when the clipboard is overwritten if cut and paste is to behave in accordance with its established metaphor.

Harder for some people with trouble using the mouse.

There are plenty of third party solutions for those users who wish to avoid using a GUI specifically designed around the mouse, and any number of ways of enabling file cutting for those who want it.

Yet you complain of lack of choice.

Enjoy the lengthy Apple paths.

Lengthy? They're the same damn length as in Ubuntu.

Also, using mv breaks the metaphor (snicker #2) of directories-as-Apps-with-a-single-icon.

How?

Having one default behavior is valuable, but preventing choice is not a benefit to the user.

Millions disagree. Being forced to sort through unwanted configuration items in poorly organized Ubuntu settings panels is not a relief. Tyranny of choice should not be inflicted on those users who do not want it. There are ample ways to gain access to customizations for those who want it.

There are certainly some behaviors that are not possible to get around. That's the reality, but none of the ones mentioned in that post qualify. The level of customization is far higher than you suggest. ...and your level of knowledge far lower. But it's always amusing to see you bait and whine about being modded a troll when you hand-wring and accuse and generally be the asshat you are...and then complain about the moderation for your tone.

Calling me a liar only makes you look like a fool. No one ever said that OS X was as customizable as Linux. Plainly it's not. But neither is it preventing choice. There are tens of thousands of interface mods available in the form of terminal commands, resource file replacements, Apple and third party add-ons, and third party replacement applications.

Nearly all of the interface elements are PNG files stored right in the application bundles. Very little is actually just locked away somewhere behind a black turtleneck seal.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll tell you what breaks the metaphor: the fact that it's a fucking computer

Ah, how delightful of you to start your screed resolving the question of whether you possess even a shred of human decency.

Cut&Paste has become an integral part of how regular users think of their computer desktops

Purely as a consequence of Windows making that decision and people growing accustomed to it. If the roles were reversed, you'd be bitching about how "cut" doesn't behave in a way that makes any sense on Macs. This is comfort, not usability.

Yeah, that'll fly really well for grandma. Just install this small app from this shady-looking website to enable some basic functionality in your $1k+ desktop.

As opposed to just install this cryptically-named package whose developer website is even shadier-looking? Cry me a river.

Sucks, sucks, and unavailable for a laptop's touchpad respectively.

Oh so grandma's on a laptop now? And is willing to move her finger to tap a space-wasting plastic button to right click, but not just to use two fingers to do the same?

Good for you. I was making money doing DOS tech support when I was 8,

Certainly explains how you managed to become such a giant tool. Maybe the time would have been better spent learning civility.

Exactly, you're far too used to OSX to notice the idiocy of its interfaces and, as result, find Debian and Ubuntu "bizarre". Lemme guess, you think the same of Windows, right? oh, don't worry, I can tell.

I've been using Linux since 1993, and if your charming DOS support anecdote is true, have been using computers longer than you've been alive. I didn't have an OS X machine for the first 3/4 of my computing experience. Gnome is indeed bizarre, and KDE is cluttered beyond repair.

The idiocy of its interface lies almost entirely with you, the jackass in the chair. If you want it to be Windows or your Linux desktop of choice, then use Windows or your Linux desktop of choice, or take five minutes and figure out how to customize the things that bug you.

Every one of the GP's complaints is easily resolved on OS X, Steve Jobs' fictional UI staredown notwithstanding.

Ahh, so intuitive and comfortable. Didn't we learn anything from Emacs' finger chords? basic functionality shouldn't require you to play pianist on your computer keyboard.

So remap the damn thing to a key you prefer. OH NO, CUSTOMIZATION! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

Re:Fonts are too small

[smash]

Is this because E stability has improved, or KDE stability has regressed? I haven't used E, but KDE seems to have gone backwards between 3.5 and 4.x in my experience.

Re:Fonts are too small

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you can, even Win95 could do it!

Re:Fonts are too small

[BikeHelmet]

I think I heard a while back that various Pandora devs had OpenGL ES accelerated compositing working - tested on Beagleboards, mostly.

That's OMAP3530 with the SGX 530 IGP.

Or maybe it was just the video playback and blitting that was accelerated - not compositing? Meh.

I can't remember if they're using E17 or XFCE right now. They flipped between four of them, and settled on the "best" one - whatever that means. ;)

Re:Fonts are too small

[DaVince21]

Xfce not so much. For example, I've been missing a way to set up the window and control colors - they're picked for you when you switch themes.

Re:Fonts are too small

[jo_ham]

I'd honestly never tried, hence asking!

Re:Fonts are too small

[jhfry]

There is much more making Gnome/KDE less than ideal for an ARM processor than the graphical element. Though it's the OP's fault for bringing that up and not yours.

E17 is a very low powered Desktop Environment... meaning it consumes very little CPU time, ram, swap, GPU, graphics ram, etc.

When designing an ARM system you could say, screw it and slap on Gnome, enable all the eye candy and deal with a system that is more sluggish and wasteful of battery power. Or you can run a lean Desktop Environment and potentially extend the battery life and improve the responsiveness of the system.

No one is suggesting that modern ARM hardware cannot run Gnome or KDE... just that doing so comes at a cost.

Re:Fonts are too small

[raster]

why do you include e17? have you looked at e17's config files - ever? they are not eeven text. they are binary - a format serialised and unserialised from data structures in ram. it is entirely designed about making the CODE provide configuration - not a text editor. "with some convolution it is possible to decode the config as a structured text format and edit then re-encode, but very few people know how to do that as its a hidden command-line tool you never know is there. it's mostly used during compilation for generating initial configs).

i count 41 configuration modules alone in e17 - thats probably 50+ config dialogs... e17 is far from forcing you to edit ttext configs - it's exposed almost all config in the gui - somewhere. there's at least 3 config dialogs that will affect font size (theme, font config dialog and ui scaling - where scaling is what people REALLY want - not font size. they want to say "i cant make that out - make it bigger" and that includes text, icons and more).

i will admit that many dialogs can be improved in their content, labelling and more - and will admit that there are so many config options and dialogs that people get lost and don't find the option they want - but it is there, in a gui, with a simple click/drag + ok...

It helps that...

[norpy]

It helps that they have some big corporate backing form the likes of Samsung

Grammar Fail

[The Mighty Buzzard]

...for ARM based devices everybody that is so hot right now...

Yeah.. um... huh?

Re:Grammar Fail

[BadAnalogyGuy]

So hot...

Re:Grammar Fail

[Fneb]

A grammatical issue left uncorrected in a /. post? How unexpected! :p

Re:Grammar Fail

[MaskedSlacker]

I'm willing to bet the error won't be in the dupe of this article, but it will be reentered in the dupe of that one.

Re:Grammar Fail

[xlotlu]

The new market is hot. D'oh.

Re:Grammar Fail

[caseih]

Oh, the irony.

No Compositing???

[kWahab]

Who cares for inner beauty?

Re:No Compositing???

[BadAnalogyGuy]

The problem with inner beauty is that it's usually hidden under several layers of outer ugly.

Re:No Compositing???

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for your contributions to transform the /. into :). I trust you will be here all week?

Re:No Compositing???

[Hurricane78]

Well, then peel it! ^^

payed

[Anonymous Coward]

"payed off"
"payed"

Go back to elementary school before you disgrace the English language further, kiddo.

Re:payed

[advocate_one]

well actually it's "paid off"...

one of my pet peeves is seeing "payed" instead of "paid" and "loose" instead of "lose.

Just because the spellchucker doesn't pick it up doesn't mean it's correct...

Re:payed

[kokyuho]

Amen brother. Amen

Re:payed

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful?

Wasn't this exactly the GP's point? The editors fixed the grammatical error pointed out by the first post, but this glaring spelling error is still in the summary.

Re:payed

[Anonymous Coward]

Although I'm not a native English speaker, "payed off" makes more sense than "paid off". In this context the OP meant "something that had high cost a lot but now is giving return (of investment)".
I can't actually find definitions for "payed off", but "paid off" doesn't have any similar meaning: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Paid+off

Re:payed

[advocate_one]

"payed off" and "payed out" are nautical usage relating to rope, line and the course with respect to the wind...

"paid off" and "paid out" are landlubbers usages relating to money

Re:payed

[Anonymous Coward]

well actually it's "paid off"...

one of my pet peeves is seeing "payed" instead of "paid" and "loose" instead of "lose.

Just because the spellchucker doesn't pick it up doesn't mean it's correct...

Ewe lye!!

Re:payed

[An ominous Cow art]

If your spellchucker is a wizard, the mistake will probably get noticed - Intelligence is the prime stat for a wizard.
If your spellchucker is a sorcerer, lots of mistakes will get by, because Charisma isn't good for noticing that sort of thing.

2.5d?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't todays ARM devices come with an implementation of OpenGL 2.0 ES?

Re:2.5d?

[freedumb2000]

RTFA

For the lazy here is the relevant quote:

So what can we do about the 3D graphics licensing issue? Legally not very much. The companies that own the IP (Intellectual Property) rights to these drivers often want large licensing fees for their technology. This is a model for single product lines (take the Nokia N900 for instance) but for Ubuntu where we are targeting a more broad approach, this isn't ideal.

Well that's good news

[Interoperable]

I'm happy to see Enlightenment getting some more exposure. I may have to dust it off and take the latest version out for a spin again. I've been using XFCE for a year now and it's high time for an arbitrary switch to a new DE.

Re:Well that's good news

[JungleRob]

Isn't the latest version still E17?

Re:Well that's good news

[MichaelSmith]

I am running Illume (a version of Enlightenment) on my openmoko and developing applications for it. It took me a while to get going because many of the example applications are out of date and the APIs change quite fast. It doesn't help that documentation is either hard to find or non-existent. The toolkits are vulnerable to buffer overflows as well. Sometimes it is best just to stay off the heap while Elementary is starting up.

But once I got a few applications working I found enlightenment quite conducive to rapid application development.

Re:Well that's good news

[Anonymous Coward]

eheh... I've been using xfce for quite some time now as well but yesterday I switched to lxde+openbox. so far, so good ;)

Re:Well that's good news

[theCoder]

The latest stable version is still E16. E17 has been in development for longer than I can remember. However, the SVN snapshots of E17 (like 16.9999 or something similar) have been reported to be useful. I haven't run E in quite a long time, though, so I can't say for sure.

Re:Well that's good news

[Kagetsuki]

That has to be one of the most random and obscure combinations of software and hardware to be used in development I have heard of in a while. Still, you get points from me for making an RPN calculator application.

Re:Well that's good news

[MichaelSmith]

Illume is the standard window manager for the openmoko SHR distribution. All the standard applications are written using the enlightenment toolkit. One advantage of enlightenment for phones and other small devices is that the toolkit has finger driven operation built into it. The standard list components can be scrolled by dragging a finger (or mouse or stylus) along them for example. Text components can be scrolled the same way.

Re:Well that's good news

[Kagetsuki]

I did not know this. That makes things a bit less obscure than I thought then. Thank you for the information.

Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

Really? Honestly? Or is it just media hype?

After all, most people want their Windows (and I want a 17" 4:3 monitor).

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Kjella]

Really? Honestly? Or is it just media hype?

I think it's just a slashdot hype, as Linux runs on ARM and Windows doesn't so... I use Linux but honestly the competition is moving at about the same pace as Linux, the gap isn't closing much.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Rennt]

Where did you get netbook from? They were not mentioned in the summary nor in the article (NBR is mentioned - but that is device agnostic).

Pretty much everything smaller then a netbook runs ARM, and yes, many of them are considered "hot" items by real consumers, who don't seem to care about Windows in the slightest.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Totenglocke]

I dunno, I think if they start rolling out decently equipped ARM netbooks / laptops with around 15 hour real world battery life, anyone who's not a gamer would say "Screw Windows" real quick.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Carewolf]

After all, most people want their Windows (and I want a 17" 4:3 monitor).

A 17" 4:3 monitor on a netbook or mobile-phone?

I like the way you think!

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[TrancePhreak]

Windows CE runs on ARM. Developing for the two is very similar, they even have a .Net framework for it.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

Just a netbook.

I don't see how anyone can effectively word process or net surf on those tiny screens, especially geezers like me.

AbiWord, Gnumeric, FireFox, Thunderbird 2, xterm/ssh, cups, nethack-x11 & WiFi all running on a dual-core ARM with 1GB RAM and an 8GB SSD.

I'd even get them for my (youngish) kids, for their rooms.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

with around 15 hour real world battery life, anyone who's not a gamer would say "Screw Windows" real quick.

Not likely. "We" had this conversation back when the Eee was first released. Now most netbooks run Windows.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[jo_ham]

Doesn't the iPad use a custom ARM cpu? I know the iPhone does.

Suddenly, a million slashdot users change their tune and order an iPad with custom Linux distro installed...

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Totenglocke]

1) The Eee is hardly a "decently equipped" laptop

2) Windows won't run on ARM

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Anonymous Coward]

WindowsCE is as much desktop Windows as Android is desktop Linux. Actually even less so.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[geminidomino]

In my experience, word processing on a network is less crippled by the odd screen ratio than by the tiny-ass keyboard...

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

1) The Eee is hardly a "decently equipped" laptop

It's CPU/RAM/Flash were/are Good Enough for a whole lot of tasks.

2) Windows won't run on ARM

People don't care. They want "familiar".

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Totenglocke]

"Good for a whole lot of tasks" is not the same as "decently equipped" meaning large HD, good amount of RAM where you can really multi-task with no lag, most basic CPU intensive tasks (such as compressing / uncompressing a file) don't take forever, a usable keyboard and decent screen size. Yes, netbooks have their place (such as for students on the go all the time), but most people prefer a real laptop.

2) Windows won't run on ARM

People don't care. They want familiar".

Vista wasn't familiar to XP in the slightest - yet most people were perfectly fine with learning where everything was. All they have to do is simplify software repositories on Linux (such as what Ubuntu is working on doing) and work a bit more on improving the IM clients (really, despite the fact that the devs of Pidgin don't care about video chat, most users do care about it - and yes, I use pidgin on all my different OS's, even Win 7) people would be more than willing to use it. Besides, never having to PAY for software again (unless you chose to pay for something) would be a huge selling point to a lot of people.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

My father, I think, is like most people: he says he's for progress and change, but really just tenaciously sticks with what was installed on his Windows laptop, theorizing, "Microsoft is a huge, successful company, so they must hire great programmers who create great software."

I've given up trying to even convert him to FF & Tbird, although I think he occasionally uses OOo, since the laptop only came with Works, and he sometimes needs to read docx files.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Totenglocke]

And if the coolest laptop was also cheap and didn't run Windows, he'd learn. It's not that people like him are incapable of learning, they just haven't been given a reason to.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

"And if the coolest laptop..."

He's my 65yo father, not my 15yo sister. "Cool" doesn't do much (anything, really) for him anymore. Comfort and utility are it.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Totenglocke]

You know damn well what I meant by "cool", now you're just trolling.

Re:Hot ARM netbook market?

[Nutria]

You know damn well what I meant by "cool"

Hip, modern, desired by "youth" (which my father isn't). Or has "cool" shifted meaning as my own beard has grayed?

now you're just trolling.

No, really.

Re: Samsung isn't going to help them.

[Anonymous Coward]

For all the rumbling about Ubuntu being visionary and unique, they are too late in this market. They may have an operating system that works well, but what big name brands really want is one of two things. They wont a drop in system that is universally accepted and useful; windows is a good example of this. Or they want an easily customizable base from which to make their own unique interface; Lenovo's skylight is a good example of this (based on Linux), so are all the 3rd party mods of Android.

Anyways, Ubuntu on it's own is just boring to device makers. Consumers don't know about it, and companies see that it gives them no edge: they would rather start from the ground up and market their product as a unique leap forward. In the era of the cloud, does binary compatibility really matter any more?

What is this, Fight club of Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this, Fight club of Linux?

Your ARM is too short on resources, put you in standby mode before the battery dies.
*goes back in house*

I told you to shutdown, and yet you are still on with a message "prepairing for standby mode." It's not happening, you're not going to save your state-data before I shut you off to save my battery.
*goes back in house*

Your font-rendering engine is taking too much power! Shut off god damnit! Shut off, don't save my data to resume all nice and neat 10 minutes later from my bumping the power-on button! Shut-off!
*hits ARM pda with hand*

Replacement Warranty, check. Cites to the Warranty on conditions of replacement, check. Broken ARM pda to be covered by warranty for specific damages, check.
*breaks ARM*

Re:What is this, Fight club of Linux?

[DaVince21]

The PDA's at fault here, not the processor.

E on Pandora

[nevermore94]

I can't wait to try E out on my new Pandora!
http://www.open-pandora.org/

Re:E on Pandora

[geminidomino]

I loved the GP2X, except for the crappy D-stick (I understand that later versions replaced it with an actual DPAD. I wish I'd waited) so I was excited about the Pandora.

Fast-forward the way-back machine to three years later, though, and it's still not out.

They do have the "current status" roadmap up on the site, but after all the problems with the GP2X software (GPL violations, boxes that advertised incomplete features which turned into abandoned, etc...), I'm a bit fearful of the vaporware factor...

Re:E on Pandora

[mvdwege]

Funny that you mention the Pandora. Just yesterday I suddenly received mail from their servers for a totally unrelated product, one I didn't sign up for.

In other words, they are also spammers. One more reason to not buy a Pandora.

Mart

Re-check

[BlackHawk-666]

I always liked Enlightenment, though found it impractical for getting things done. Might be time to take another look at it if it's seeing development work again.

Re:Re-check

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too. Enlightenment is great but without notifications and a way to theme gtk and qt well, I can't use it.

not for long

[smash]

Given that even portable devices like the iphone and N95 onwards support openGL these days, I suspect that the "bet paying off" will be for an extremely limited time only.

Hardware will catch up in due course.

Re:not for long

[tftp]

Hardware will catch up in due course.

For each and every hardware that catches up and gives you $n hours of battery life there will always be hardware that chooses to not catch up, and as result gives you 2*$n hours of battery life.

Personally, I disable animations on every computer I use just because they are wasting my time. 3D effects are nice for a few minutes, but become irrelevant after that. The important part of a window is not its decorations, it's the client area.

Re:not for long

[Trepidity]

On Linux I think it'll be a bit longer, because 3d drivers, especially free ones that can be shipped out of the box, continue to lag behind actual hardware support.

Re:not for long

[xcomputer_man]

Your comment would make sense if EFL/E17 did not already support OpenGL ES on embedded devices. Illume, the E17 variant designed for mobile/embedded devices, already runs quite well with hardware/OpenGL acceleration on platforms like Maemo, and I already have built and successfully run EFL-based OpenGL apps on the Palm Pre (available in the WebOS Internals WIDK tree).

Evas was designed from the ground up to be modular and support every graphics platform known to man. Windows GDI, DirectX, iPhone OS, X11, WebOS, native Linux Framebuffer, SDL, OpenGL, OpenGL ES - you name it, EFL runs on it. Evas will take advantage of hardware acceleration when it is available, but benchmarks actually show that in many instances, when it comes to regular UI graphics operations, OpenGL/hardware accelerated interfaces don't necessarily perform better than Evas' own software engine and in several cases are actually worse -- on the Palm Pre, for example, GLES is actually much slower at doing things like alpha blending. So in that respect, yes, hardware does have some catching up to do.

Re:not for long

[Civil_Disobedient]

Animation can add another level of context to the user interface. For instance, status messages with fading background colors (made popular by 37Signals with their Yellow-Fade Technique)--that's animation, but it's used subtly, sparingly and appropriately, so it gets a pass.

The places where it is simply unforgivable to use animation is in scroll effects, form fields or menu items. I always end up using nLite when I reinstall an operating system because it lets you create new installs that have all that CRAP turned off. It's astonishing how much snappier your computer feels.

Re:not for long

[kangsterizer]

if they're not going to use "3D" power then they're going to use another computational power.
so using a 3d chip or not, you're going to use the same amount of battery with effect enabled.. in fact it wouldnt surprise me if the 3D version consumed less power, it depends on electronics.

Re:not for long

[vxice]

I think xkcd demonstrates why fancy graphics are necessary. http://www.xkcd.com/676/

Re:not for long

[Japie_H]

While I agree that most effects are just fun for a couple of minutes (wobly windows, water drops etc., there are some compiz functions/plugins that I find quite usefull.
For example:
Scaled down versions of windows when you're alt tabbing
Being able to scale down a whole window (which I really like when I'm just looking for a pattern in a log file
and don't need to see the specifics
Scaling down all windows so that you can easily find the right terminal

While I don't think that most effects are very useful there are some effects that make you (or at least me) a bit more productive.

Re:not for long

[Abcd1234]

OpenGL/hardware accelerated interfaces don't necessarily perform better than Evas' own software engine and in several cases are actually worse

That greatly depends on your definition of "better". The whole point of offloading those operations to the graphics accelerator is so the main CPU isn't bogged down performing those operations. On a mobile platform, that may make the difference when it comes to battery life, as it's possible the graphics chipset can perform those operations more efficiently (if not necessarily faster). Not to mention the general application performance gains possible if the core processor isn't tied up performing on-the-fly alpha blending operations.

Re:not for long

[crazybilly]

Agreed. I find the spinning cube particularly useful, if only because it provides some immediate, positive reinforcement for using multiple desktops. I'm getting to the point now where I remember to use them all the time, but as a new Linux user, I often forgot about them. Till I started using the cube and found out how much fun it was to spin the dang thing.

Fun + cube = greater productivity.

Re:not for long

[Hurricane78]

but benchmarks actually show that in many instances, when it comes to regular UI graphics operations, OpenGL/hardware accelerated interfaces don't necessarily perform better than Evas' own software engine and in several cases are actually worse

Which might well be, because EFL is so universal, that the conversion of commands and data eats away all the resources, because it’s so different.
And what do you mean with “own software engine”? Complete software rendering, pixel by pixel? In that case I would check if your OpenGL engine not also actually is a software renderer. ;))

Re:not for long

[smash]

OK so it supports openGL. I haven't used E in a long time, so I wasn't aware of that. But that wasn't the point the story was making - the story was playing up its software rendering support. Which these days, is of limited use when GL hardware is so prevalent...

Re:not for long

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you're a blast at parties.

Re:not for long

[raster]

you may be surprised on what consumes more battery. i have seen the case where the cpu will render faster with less overall power usage than the gpu. but in the end EFL gives you the choice - at runtime even. many rendering paths are supported. choose the one that is best for you. in the end what matters is the user experience - if you offload to a gpu, use the cpu or whatever - the user needs to feel that things work nicely. if a cpu manages 30fps and gpu manages 15fps - the cpu will almost always provide a better experience - even if you now have to share it between rendering and logic (invariably you are not rendering when you are doing logic. most logic is done to set up the screen state - then you scroll around and do things with that logic. games are the exception here, but generally in 2d ui land your cpu is idle anyway - but consuming power)

Re:not for long

[raster]

i'm going to have to giggle at that... considering that NOTHING uses gl on your desktop for everything - compositor - ok. games ok. for rendering your scrollbars, buttons, text, and more... i suggest you try it one day... and find out just how "solid" opengl is... you may be in for a shock.

opengl is good as what it is USED for - the examples above. try using it for all the 2d stuff that has been done for years... and you'll hit issues. gtk an qt still almost entirely work with software rendering - very little of 2d beyond blits and fills is accelerated in x - x will just render with the cpu - or cairo will... or... you get the idea. software is alive and well for this way of rendering. opengl is struggling to get there. in some cases its doing well - in others its not.

Re:not for long

[badkarmadayaccount]

You should try shrooms, they make full use of the GPU.

cant wait..

[Anonymous Coward]

to try this on my zipit! lol

Blame Ubuntu, not Enlightenment !

[Taco Cowboy]

It's Ubuntu that package the whole thing and decide on the default font size.

E only plays the part of supplying the critically needed libraries.

That's funny

[earnest murderer]

Because at this point Apple's computers and OS are _by far_ the most conservative in appearance compared to other major players.

Re:That's funny

[MrHanky]

Only if the only other major players are Windows 7 and Vista. KDE, too, perhaps (although that's debatable), but then you'd also have to count Gnome as another major player, and Gnome is certainly far more "conservative in appearance", in every possible sense of the phrase, than Mac OS X.

Re:That's funny

[moonbender]

Not sure what accounts for a major player, but the standard Ubuntu desktop seems fairly conservative to me.

Re:That's funny

[Draek]

Yeah, except not really. Try Gnome, Xfce or LXDE's default desktops, while KDE and Enlightenment may have chosen to follow in Windows' garish footsteps there's still plenty of desktops more conservative than Apple's. And hardware? one word: Lenovo.

back in 1995

[timmarhy]

i remeber it for having the ugliest theme ever.

Re:back in 1995

[dbIII]

And it had some of the best - including the ones Rob Malda did before he started Slashdot.
A lot of the people here on day one came here via his ePlus and themes page.

Re:back in 1995

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, that takes me back. I met rob at the junction truckstop back in the late 90s. he sucked dick like a pro and was even known to rim an asshole now and then. He just gulped down a load of cum and as I was about to leave the stall, he gave me a business card with the website written on the back. A lot of things have changed since then, but malda still gives the best blowjobs!

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Option for the N900?

[misterduffy]

It's no secret that Maemo isn't exactly allowing the N900 to spread it's wings - perhaps having other OS options such as Ubuntu would let more developers in the door. I know Maemo's Debian base isn't exactly an alienating factor for developers but, given Ubuntu's current prevalence, it opens a few more doors competition-wise.

Would be somewhat indicting of Nokia's choice of OS should an alternative, indepdent platform take off though!

Re:Option for the N900?

[jo_ham]

What about options for iPad? Slashdot users can make the tablet/keyboardless appliance they always wanted, running Linux.

Re:Option for the N900?

[Toy G]

Er, the original Maemo was in fact based on an old Ubuntu AFAIK.

But it's irrelevant anyway, considering that Maemo doesn't exist anymore: it's been merged with Moblin to create the new "MeeGo" distribution, which will be RPM-based and completely independent from any "parent" distro.

Brushed Metal FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the days E was cool beyond imagination because of its cool effects. Would it stand up against modern desktop environments, since cool animations and such are passé?

I also remember Gooseman demoing some sort of übercanvas for E, that never really took off...

And finally, Brushed Metal, the enlightenment theme that was copied absolutely all over the place, FTW!

Englightenment on my Acer 3694

[ed]

I bought a second hand Acer Aspire 3694, shoved a bigger HDD in it and installed MacPup, a Puppy Linux Puplet that has Englightenment as its Window Manager

It is smooth, pretty and fast.
i'd licke to see it actively continue, it is a great way to get decent eye candy on older machines

Holy smokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Too much of this already. For the love of sweet Lordy Lord, it's "paid", not "payed". Hell, while we're at it, it's "no one", never "noone".

I still use e16 on my primary machine

[rwa2]

I've tried several times to "move on" to the next WM, be it compiz or e17, or maybe even lxde, but I keep coming back to e16 because, well, it works. It's the only compositing WM I know that updates the pager with the actual contents of the screen using, well, compositing (compiz doesn't really have a pager, and awn, gnome-panel, etc. use polling instead of compositing). Compiz is nice, but still crashes often and unexpectedly, and still runs noticeably slower even when I have most of the plugins turned off.

The only other WMs I fall back to on occasion are WindowMaker, which is beautifully simple, functional, but old with respect to features like compositing (gotta have truly transparent gnome-terminals :P ) and I miss not having a nice pager or sane panel or fullscreen handling. The other is icewm, which works great for VNC sessions from small devices, though I suppose lxde might be a good replacement for it eventually.

President Ook Ook Banana will love this!

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome!

Netwalker Z1 Runs Gnome Just Fine!

[Kagetsuki]

My Sharp Z1 runs Gnome perfectly fine. It's an ARM device and actually I would imagine E being harder to use because of how much it depended on you going through those tiny little flowing menus to access everything. The old default Enlightenment metal theme was probably the ugliest possible theme ever, put that on a netbook or something by default and nobody will buy it.

apple fanboys with modpoints

[drinkypoo]

You can always tell when a troll moderates, because they moderate something which is not a troll as a troll. I have extensive personal experience customizing GUIs beginning with the Amiga, MacOS 6 (using resedit), MacOS 7 (resedit, Copland interface INIT), various Windows versions, And hell, even numerous versions of Enlightenment. I've been whacking Linux GUIs around since Slackware 2 and FVWM 1.2x. I also used OSX 10.1 through 10.4... and I'm intimately familiar with the strengths and utter failures of each of these. And Apple threw away everything they knew about GUIs when they went with OSX. They actually ruined some of what was good about NeXTStep, which was tolerably responsive on a 25 MHz 68040 chip; notably, besides increasing the footprint by orders of magnitude, they changed the Dock from something useful to something that takes no advantage of muscle memory.

Re:apple fanboys with modpoints

[jo_ham]

It's not just apple fanboys that do that - it's all fanboys. Pretty much any opinion is fair game to someone with an axe to grind and modpoints to use. It's not unique to apple zealots.

clueless posters and moderators is the answer

[je ne sais quoi]

Yeah, it strikes me as funny and sad that a comment on this site, which is supposedly a tech site that focuses a lot on linux, are so clueless that they are modding comments that are based on information that are at least three years out of date as insightful. Here's an image showing the configuration dialog on e17 that clearly shows a "fonts" category, using the old antiquated bling theme no less. Here's the svn repo. that shows that the fonts configuration is at least 3 years old. That isn't even when the fonts dialog got put in there, it's only when they migrated to svn. I know, I used e17 for many, many years. The real truth is that e17 is the most customizable and flexible desktop manager that currently exists. You can not only customize different classes of fonts (e.g. dialog text vs. window titles, etc.), but you can define nearly everything from what happens when a mouse clicks on a window border vs. windows interior vs. desktop and just about everything else. The theming possibilities are likewise the most interesting I have ever seen for any window manager.

The only reason I gave up e17 is that they decided to break parts of my theme for the login manager and I have just had enough of re-writing my theme every few months because they decided that they needed to do something differently. They're stuck in a point of perpetual alpha state software -- they have taken so long to release the software that they have to rewrite all the original code because it's old and out of date which means they can't release the software yet. It's not like it's getting more stable either because they *still* were breaking things nearly every other time I would update. A bigger issue however is the fact that I want compiz and I was having endless problems with vsync using the e17 compiz module which is a deal-breaker since I need to be able to watch movies on my PC and I want fancy effects.

E17 and netbooks.

[MattBD]

I've long been of the opinion that Enlightenment is the ideal UI for netbooks - it's fast and lightweight, but looks great. Of course it's been held back by the sedate pace of development, but if E17 is finally released I can see it really going down a storm, especially on ARM-based netbooks where Windows isn't an option.

Irony, oh the irony...

[argent]

Back when Enlightenment was new it was anything but "lean", I took a look at it and went back to fvwm or wmx or whatever I was using at the time. I mean, it required 4 megabytes of RAM, and pulled in maybe a couple of dozen shared libraries! Bloat, bloat, bloat!

Re:Option for the N900?.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, that was a woeful attempt at pedantry.

the Debian Project is an independent decentralized organization; it is not backed by a company like other GNU/Linux distributions such as Ubuntu, openSUSE, Fedora, and Mandriva. (Wikipedia.org)

Going a bit OT here but, on reflection, I'm actually very pleased about the merger after being most displeased at the news that the BBC will be providing a World Cup live viewing app for iPhone, Android and Blackberry. Reading that article was the first time I really felt bad about having an N900, so hopefully MeeGo will constitute a sufficient user base to justify an app for that platform too.