If Nokia wanted full control then they wouldn't have just announced their GIT repositories. Everyone can effect the development of QT. Its interesting to see QT 4.6 progress - because there is a lot of downstream work being done and itches being scratched. I like it. =)
* Why do widgets allow you to rotate them? Why on earth would anyone want that?
My wife is an average user. She's a primary school teacher. I gave her a fresh install of Gnome and a fresh install of KDE 4.2 and she refuses to use Gnome now - not because KDE is 'just better' but because she said it was more aesthetically pleasing and that she could rotate her picture widgets on the desktop and have a cool collage of her favourite photos. Needless to say, I couldn't care less about such things.
I'm not saying its the most useful feature - but she prefers KDE for the simple fact that she feels it looks better and she can rotate her widgets.
I'm not sure if you're referring to the fact that the Linux version of Skype is not as fully featured as the Windows version, or if you think that the Linux version of Skype is riddled with bugs or if you just think that the look and feel of Skype on Linux is not up to scratch - but here are a few pointers:
> Skype doesn't have as much incentive to work on their Linux version of their client
> Skype was heavily married to the Windows API's in their version 3 and 4 clients meaning that cross-platform support is hard
If you've read those two bullet points then it should become clear that this has nothing to do with QT, but rather with Skype's internal practices and motivations.
NEWSFLASH: Apple is the most closed and tight-arsed company you'll ever come across. They'll protect their cash-flow with more insane aggressiveness than any other company in the industry.
What the frack you stupid fracking frack!>??!??!??!
Why the FRACK are you arguing from the POV of monthly subscribers. This argument isn't about how much frack-you money Blizzard will make with this, its how they're screwing over the best social experience you can have while playing a RTS. WITH FRACKING FRIENDS ON A FRACKING LAN WITH A FRACKING USELESS INTERNET CONNECTION.
Both of the problems you allude to are not the fault of Linux.
Comparing a pre-installed Windows machine to a user installed Linux machine is completely unfair. The last time I installed Vista/Win7 (tried both) fresh on my laptop, not even my USB controller was detected - let alone my default resolution, sound card, webcam, keyboard shortcuts and much other stuff. On the other hand, all of this was detected 'out of the box' by Linux. Both a manufacturer built Linux box and Windows box work straight away with all their hardware, and DVDs and MP3s, etc.
So the problem you cite is not that Linux isn't good enough, but that all the manufacturers aren't shipping it. And as a result, that's 'hard' for the user.
he, like many average users, are highly resistant to change. Until Linux can unify around a single company and vastly improve the user-friendliness
You've summed it up yourself. The problem isn't Linux's user-unfriendliness so much as it is the users resistance to change. Take mobile phones as an example, even I found it hard moving from one phone to another. Not because it was 'unfriendly' but just because it was different. This issue can't be blamed on my new mobile phone - its just that is looks different.
The same goes for Linux, it is user friendly - you just have to get used to it, like anyone has to get used to a Windows box when they first use one. I have cases where clients have started using Ubuntu (non-techies) and now find Windows frustrating to use because it feels 'clunky' to them. Honestly, they've adapted to the different look of Linux like the different look of a new mobile phone and they love the advantages.
The whole Plug&Play thing you refer to still grates with me. I still have to come across hardware that doesn't just work when plugged into a Linux box - ESPECIALLY printers, cameras, scanners and iPods etc. Maybe its just me? But in Windows I always have to install a driver before I can make any of these devices work.
If you use a recent Linux distro you should notice that if there is no immediate driver it can use it will automatically find the appropriate one on the internet. I haven't had to use this yet, but it seems mighty useful.
In terms of having drivers 'ON THE CD'; that's just a market penetration issue. But I'll just say that its changing. Especially with the advent of millions of Linux netbooks floating around, manufacturers are ensuring support for their hardware on these devices is good. Positive forces are at play, and Microsoft are having a hard time trying to choke it out! =)
"Hell I could put out a Netbook with an embedded Win2K and support more consumer level hardware out of the box that Linux does right now."
"For the little guy it would be suicide. Just look at Tom Tom and getting sued over Linux. Had to cave and pay up, didn't they?"
"Can I do that in Linux? Nope a chance in hell. I can't do that because Linux has NO stable ABI or framework for me to write devices to. None at all."
It is clear that you're trolling to your heart's content, so this is going to be my last reply.
The problem you highlight about ABIs is off mark. While the ABI is constantly improving, they aren't neglecting backwards compatibility. Only ancient calls that have no further purpose are depreciated. If a driver is missing in a Distro, its usually either because they couldn't be bothered to recompile it and include it or they think that the hardware it supports is too old to be supported.
Secondly, if a driver isn't compatible with a newer kernel it is normally because the manufacturer has shitty coders - really shitty coders. This happens often; the developers say its too hard because they can't be bothered to write quality code. So many of these 'drivers' are just quickly constructed hacks that could have been done better by a group of monkeys.
Either way, the problem you allude to is not the fault of the Linux kernel so much as it is the fault of the crappy programmers that can't be stuffed to write maintainable code. I'm not saying they have to release the source, but I've seen the source of some of these proprietary drivers - its enough to make you blow chunks.
Lastly, you are skipping over a big logical bomb that rains on your party; namely, that Microsoft are afraid of Linux because it will catch on.
Consider this, the netbook market started with tiny Linux machines. According to you, this wouldn't sell because no 'real' consumer could possibly use it. Wrong. They were selling like hotcakes. In fact, Linux was selling so well that Microsoft had to offer the only operating system they had for this hardware basically for free just to stem the flow of Linux getting to the public. For you to deny that Microsoft is afraid of Linux is for you to tell Ballmer he's wrong. Go on, ask him - whats Microsoft's biggest threat? He said it himself.
Long story short, Microsoft used its monopoly control over the market to bend manufacturers to its will. They are the ones who removed the Linux choice on netbooks and then lied to the market about how the 'consumer had chosen'. Load. Of. Bollocks.
Finally, this was originally a discussion on how you believed that Linux couldn't run 10% of hardware and that even Windows 2000 supports more hardware out of the box. It comes down to this: you're trolling, and you don't know what you're talking about! =)
Just something more about your comment: rallying the community isn't the problem. The community is doing all it can. The issue really lies with the manufacturers. This has been said over and over again - and its true: the more manufacturers see Linux, the more likely they are to support it. With the early explosion in sales of Linux netbooks and the recent revelations of Linux's exponentially growing market share, I believe this situation will soon change.
Honestly, it already is in the process of changing. There is more support from manufacturers for Linux that there ever was, and its only growing.
You have some points in there, but they're surrounded in crap.
Despite what you may think, I have actually bought many products off ebay without any research (TV USB stick, cameras, printers) and every last one of them has worked without a hitch. Maybe I've been 'fortunate', but its a pretty big coincidence - I've bought many a product.
You say there are products not supported in Linux, this is true. For example, even after research, it became apparent that I would need to use Wine to get my TomTom GPS to update its maps with their proprietary Windows only application. Things like this are a barrier to the uneducated user.
I've installed Linux on a number of people's machines that needed it (Vista 'capable' laptops with 512Mb RAM and a celeron processor mostly) and instead of leaving these people out in the cold, I simply put a document right in the middle of their desktop explaining the very basics of their systems and offering to consult with them if they need help buying any extra gear. I make it apparent to users who switch to Linux that it is not a Windows clone. I explain this clearly, and make sure they get the point.
I routinely ring these people and ask them how their Linux computer is going and how they're coping with it. This gives them an outlet to tell me about something that might be confusing them. I have heard nothing but praise from these people. I'm not joking and I'm not overstating the facts. These people know that if they want to get some new piece of hardware that if it doesn't work straight away that they can then contact me and I'll help them.
Most of them run by me what they plan on getting and I'll just check for them so they don't have to go through the hassle of taking something back that isn't supported. So far, nothing has been unsupported - and these people have bought some odd peripherals. Even down to Windows only knitting software that works flawlessly on WINE.
I am by no means saying that Linux is perfect and that everything runs fine. But I can tell you that it is indeed ready for the desktop and that your average Joe can indeed use it as their main OS - I have clients that will attest to that. And some of these are people that have always feared Linux because they heard it was created by Satan. Others are over 80 years old, others are kids - they play their PC games on it too.
I'd wager that the situation isn't as bad as you make it sound. You seem to have little idea on how to effectively support users - try gently educating them.
Again, Linux isn't perfect. Not everything works out of the box, but I would wager that most does - its certainly been my client's experience.
I have all three components (all-in-one, USB TV Tuner and Wifi USB stick) and all three of them worked perfectly when plugged into my Ubuntu Linux box.
This is really old news, but people need to actually install a recent Linux distro and stop bitching about the 90's.
On a side note, I recommend MeTV for watching TV with your USB stick in Linux - great little program!
I'm confused. How did your story have any relevance to your conclusion?
Are you really saying that because you had to sit down what sounds like a staunch Microsoftie and teach him OpenOffice.org that it means that Linux isn't ready? Also, what have you plugged into your distro that hasn't worked? When was the last time you used a tar.gz file for anything? Could you have just used the package manager?
I mean, honestly, I'm going to call troll on this one. Perhaps you could explain what you really mean and how you got to your conclusion with the examples you gave?
While I agree that the devs got the initial interface in 2.x wrong, I don't think that will be the case going forward. There is a strong move towards making the interface fully customisable, so that, in future versions (2.2 and 2.3) we can have an easy click 'classic 1.4 interface' button.
I guess its easy to criticise the shortcomings of software and forget about the advances it has made. Amarok 2.x is setting a great stage for future versions - sure the interface needs updating - but faster DB access, ability to effectively handle far larger DBs and lots of other advances make it a far better platform in my opinion.
If you were to have a look at the source code of 1.4 and the source code of 2.x then you'll see what I mean.
I use banshee currently too. Only because it has better support for my G4 iPod Nano. When Amarok has integrated well with Phonon then I'll be switching back. =)
Slashdot Mirror
GHNa&^^^ )*@%NNNflikj SLJGH'HB HAHAHAHskg,g Google Translate: Wait... we still use the English language?
If Nokia wanted full control then they wouldn't have just announced their GIT repositories. Everyone can effect the development of QT. Its interesting to see QT 4.6 progress - because there is a lot of downstream work being done and itches being scratched. I like it. =)
Amarok 2.2 is the release to hang out for. It will make you coffee, pay for your kids intuition and clean your car - or so they say.
My wife is an average user. She's a primary school teacher. I gave her a fresh install of Gnome and a fresh install of KDE 4.2 and she refuses to use Gnome now - not because KDE is 'just better' but because she said it was more aesthetically pleasing and that she could rotate her picture widgets on the desktop and have a cool collage of her favourite photos. Needless to say, I couldn't care less about such things.
I'm not saying its the most useful feature - but she prefers KDE for the simple fact that she feels it looks better and she can rotate her widgets.
I'm going to bite - and then some.
I'm not sure if you're referring to the fact that the Linux version of Skype is not as fully featured as the Windows version, or if you think that the Linux version of Skype is riddled with bugs or if you just think that the look and feel of Skype on Linux is not up to scratch - but here are a few pointers:
> Skype doesn't have as much incentive to work on their Linux version of their client
> Skype was heavily married to the Windows API's in their version 3 and 4 clients meaning that cross-platform support is hard
If you've read those two bullet points then it should become clear that this has nothing to do with QT, but rather with Skype's internal practices and motivations.
It gives them Canonical. How significant that is remains to be seen - but Canonical have been pushing hard for business partnerships of this ilk.
Apple gang to the rescue!
NEWSFLASH: Apple is the most closed and tight-arsed company you'll ever come across. They'll protect their cash-flow with more insane aggressiveness than any other company in the industry.
Honestly, I don't know why you care. Google search still outstrips all the other search engines put together. Its not like you're going to need Bing.
Way to go for blasting your router off the face of the planet.
What the frack you stupid fracking frack!>??!??!??!
Why the FRACK are you arguing from the POV of monthly subscribers. This argument isn't about how much frack-you money Blizzard will make with this, its how they're screwing over the best social experience you can have while playing a RTS. WITH FRACKING FRIENDS ON A FRACKING LAN WITH A FRACKING USELESS INTERNET CONNECTION.
Frack I'm angry.
Blizzard, I don't want your babies any more.
Yeah, with that wing span it has more chance of winning the lottery than gliding...
I'm more people. I do too.
To build a gun you need money. Open Source only has jockeys....
I guess we could attempt a Eureka Stockade type movement...
Beyond governments maybe - but heading into the hands of companies certainly.
Stupidity reigns.
I for one refuse to welcome our new censorship enforcing overlords.
It makes me sick. It seems that Western society is rapidly descending into despicable mutating police states.
The golden era is over. We're all doomed.
SeamlessRDP. Install your application on one Windows server and push it to all your Linux desktops.
Comparing a pre-installed Windows machine to a user installed Linux machine is completely unfair. The last time I installed Vista/Win7 (tried both) fresh on my laptop, not even my USB controller was detected - let alone my default resolution, sound card, webcam, keyboard shortcuts and much other stuff. On the other hand, all of this was detected 'out of the box' by Linux. Both a manufacturer built Linux box and Windows box work straight away with all their hardware, and DVDs and MP3s, etc.
So the problem you cite is not that Linux isn't good enough, but that all the manufacturers aren't shipping it. And as a result, that's 'hard' for the user.
You've summed it up yourself. The problem isn't Linux's user-unfriendliness so much as it is the users resistance to change. Take mobile phones as an example, even I found it hard moving from one phone to another. Not because it was 'unfriendly' but just because it was different. This issue can't be blamed on my new mobile phone - its just that is looks different.
The same goes for Linux, it is user friendly - you just have to get used to it, like anyone has to get used to a Windows box when they first use one. I have cases where clients have started using Ubuntu (non-techies) and now find Windows frustrating to use because it feels 'clunky' to them. Honestly, they've adapted to the different look of Linux like the different look of a new mobile phone and they love the advantages.
The whole Plug&Play thing you refer to still grates with me. I still have to come across hardware that doesn't just work when plugged into a Linux box - ESPECIALLY printers, cameras, scanners and iPods etc. Maybe its just me? But in Windows I always have to install a driver before I can make any of these devices work.
If you use a recent Linux distro you should notice that if there is no immediate driver it can use it will automatically find the appropriate one on the internet. I haven't had to use this yet, but it seems mighty useful.
In terms of having drivers 'ON THE CD'; that's just a market penetration issue. But I'll just say that its changing. Especially with the advent of millions of Linux netbooks floating around, manufacturers are ensuring support for their hardware on these devices is good. Positive forces are at play, and Microsoft are having a hard time trying to choke it out! =)
It is clear that you're trolling to your heart's content, so this is going to be my last reply.
The problem you highlight about ABIs is off mark. While the ABI is constantly improving, they aren't neglecting backwards compatibility. Only ancient calls that have no further purpose are depreciated. If a driver is missing in a Distro, its usually either because they couldn't be bothered to recompile it and include it or they think that the hardware it supports is too old to be supported.
Secondly, if a driver isn't compatible with a newer kernel it is normally because the manufacturer has shitty coders - really shitty coders. This happens often; the developers say its too hard because they can't be bothered to write quality code. So many of these 'drivers' are just quickly constructed hacks that could have been done better by a group of monkeys.
Either way, the problem you allude to is not the fault of the Linux kernel so much as it is the fault of the crappy programmers that can't be stuffed to write maintainable code. I'm not saying they have to release the source, but I've seen the source of some of these proprietary drivers - its enough to make you blow chunks.
Lastly, you are skipping over a big logical bomb that rains on your party; namely, that Microsoft are afraid of Linux because it will catch on.
Consider this, the netbook market started with tiny Linux machines. According to you, this wouldn't sell because no 'real' consumer could possibly use it. Wrong. They were selling like hotcakes. In fact, Linux was selling so well that Microsoft had to offer the only operating system they had for this hardware basically for free just to stem the flow of Linux getting to the public. For you to deny that Microsoft is afraid of Linux is for you to tell Ballmer he's wrong. Go on, ask him - whats Microsoft's biggest threat? He said it himself.
You quoted some return rates and market penetration statistics. I'm not going to bother repeating myself on this, so just read this article: http://socceroosd.blogspot.com/2009/03/netbooks-missing-bleeding-obvious.html
Long story short, Microsoft used its monopoly control over the market to bend manufacturers to its will. They are the ones who removed the Linux choice on netbooks and then lied to the market about how the 'consumer had chosen'. Load. Of. Bollocks.
Finally, this was originally a discussion on how you believed that Linux couldn't run 10% of hardware and that even Windows 2000 supports more hardware out of the box. It comes down to this: you're trolling, and you don't know what you're talking about! =)
Adios
Just something more about your comment: rallying the community isn't the problem. The community is doing all it can. The issue really lies with the manufacturers. This has been said over and over again - and its true: the more manufacturers see Linux, the more likely they are to support it. With the early explosion in sales of Linux netbooks and the recent revelations of Linux's exponentially growing market share, I believe this situation will soon change.
Honestly, it already is in the process of changing. There is more support from manufacturers for Linux that there ever was, and its only growing.
You have some points in there, but they're surrounded in crap.
Despite what you may think, I have actually bought many products off ebay without any research (TV USB stick, cameras, printers) and every last one of them has worked without a hitch. Maybe I've been 'fortunate', but its a pretty big coincidence - I've bought many a product.
You say there are products not supported in Linux, this is true. For example, even after research, it became apparent that I would need to use Wine to get my TomTom GPS to update its maps with their proprietary Windows only application. Things like this are a barrier to the uneducated user.
I've installed Linux on a number of people's machines that needed it (Vista 'capable' laptops with 512Mb RAM and a celeron processor mostly) and instead of leaving these people out in the cold, I simply put a document right in the middle of their desktop explaining the very basics of their systems and offering to consult with them if they need help buying any extra gear. I make it apparent to users who switch to Linux that it is not a Windows clone. I explain this clearly, and make sure they get the point.
I routinely ring these people and ask them how their Linux computer is going and how they're coping with it. This gives them an outlet to tell me about something that might be confusing them. I have heard nothing but praise from these people. I'm not joking and I'm not overstating the facts. These people know that if they want to get some new piece of hardware that if it doesn't work straight away that they can then contact me and I'll help them.
Most of them run by me what they plan on getting and I'll just check for them so they don't have to go through the hassle of taking something back that isn't supported. So far, nothing has been unsupported - and these people have bought some odd peripherals. Even down to Windows only knitting software that works flawlessly on WINE.
I am by no means saying that Linux is perfect and that everything runs fine. But I can tell you that it is indeed ready for the desktop and that your average Joe can indeed use it as their main OS - I have clients that will attest to that. And some of these are people that have always feared Linux because they heard it was created by Satan. Others are over 80 years old, others are kids - they play their PC games on it too.
I'd wager that the situation isn't as bad as you make it sound. You seem to have little idea on how to effectively support users - try gently educating them.
Again, Linux isn't perfect. Not everything works out of the box, but I would wager that most does - its certainly been my client's experience.
But if you're focused on FOSS 'gaining' then you would conversely be concerned with FOSS 'losing' too. This is what dov_0 is pointing out.
I'll back this up - and go one further.
I have all three components (all-in-one, USB TV Tuner and Wifi USB stick) and all three of them worked perfectly when plugged into my Ubuntu Linux box.
This is really old news, but people need to actually install a recent Linux distro and stop bitching about the 90's.
On a side note, I recommend MeTV for watching TV with your USB stick in Linux - great little program!
I'm confused. How did your story have any relevance to your conclusion?
Are you really saying that because you had to sit down what sounds like a staunch Microsoftie and teach him OpenOffice.org that it means that Linux isn't ready? Also, what have you plugged into your distro that hasn't worked? When was the last time you used a tar.gz file for anything? Could you have just used the package manager?
I mean, honestly, I'm going to call troll on this one. Perhaps you could explain what you really mean and how you got to your conclusion with the examples you gave?
Your choice of music player is up to you.
While I agree that the devs got the initial interface in 2.x wrong, I don't think that will be the case going forward. There is a strong move towards making the interface fully customisable, so that, in future versions (2.2 and 2.3) we can have an easy click 'classic 1.4 interface' button.
I guess its easy to criticise the shortcomings of software and forget about the advances it has made. Amarok 2.x is setting a great stage for future versions - sure the interface needs updating - but faster DB access, ability to effectively handle far larger DBs and lots of other advances make it a far better platform in my opinion.
If you were to have a look at the source code of 1.4 and the source code of 2.x then you'll see what I mean.
I use banshee currently too. Only because it has better support for my G4 iPod Nano. When Amarok has integrated well with Phonon then I'll be switching back. =)