Some people like GNOME, some people find KDE more pleasing - nothing strange in that. It's just like there are many different cars because people have different taste. Greetings Joergen
Long answer:
As more and more people realize that you can get a complete DE for free, more people will go for GNOME/KDE/Whatever that fits them. It will not happen overnight, but as the DE's matures it will get more and more attractive. The PC manufactures will also be tempted til dump Windows, so they don't have to pay the "MS Tax".
The GNOME/KDE DE's are not quite ready yet - they are close, but there are a few things which is not there yet. Installing new apps is one of them - it isn't easy enough, but Helixcode's Red Carpet looks like a killer!.
If you would like to know more about (software) patents (and you ought to if you if you are in the software business and live in Europe), here is some links:
SSLUG (Skåne Sjælland Linux User Group) has created an article called "Software patents - No thanks!". You can find it here.
"The EuroLinux File on Software Patents" also has a lot of information right here
I agree with most of your comment, but I don't quite agree with you about the "horribly slow file managers". You can't have tried Konqueror, or your KDE2 installation must have been broken in some way, because Konqueror is at pretty cool and fast filemanager imnsho. The Control Panel in KDE2 is a bit confusing and overwhelming, but it's not that bad. Furthermore, I don't use the Control Panel directly, I just use the startmenu and launch the "Configuration panel" (I don't know what else to call it) from there.
A thing still lacking is stability (not the kernel, but in the desktop environment), but KDE2 has just been released and I expect that it will be better when KDE 2.01 is soon released and maybe it is just because my install is broken, but it is (at the moment) a standard Mandrake 7.2 install, so it ought to be more stable than what I've experienced until now.
Another thing is an easier way to install new applications. it shouldn't be necesary to go use the CLI ever to install any app, but it often is. Furthermore the applications automatically (or ask about it) put an icon in the startmenu and elsewhere. Helixcode's Red Carpet looks pretty cool.
One could only hope this would help the two groups collaborate more...
That sure would be nice, but it is going to be difficult to archieve. Futhermore, the KDE League has *nothing* to do with the development of KDE, it is only about pr (as stated other places and pretty clearly in the press release!).
Sure, more choice is generally a good thing, but the ongoing farce of GNOME vs. KDE (which is what they seem to be making it into) is a joke that makes Linux look rediculous. There is plenty of room out there for both desktops, yet they each spend as much time playing games of oneupmanship as they do promoting their own product.
What farce are you talking about?
If there is a farce, then it has only been here on/. - the core KDE Team (and the core GNOME Team) has mostly just quietly been hacking away, making the best desktop environment!
This is not about making GNOME look silly - I bet it is more about promoting KDE to ex. Windows users and others. The more publishty Linux gets, the more KDE (and GNOME) will get - this will give the press a single place to go for information about KDE.
I've tried it (Celeron 366, 128MB RAM, NT4) - here is my take:
- It's relatively fast (but Konqueror is faster and IE is faster too).
- It takes a long time to load.
- It loads the JRE on startup - why? That makes it take 24-25MB memory and I've got it up beyond 40MB just browsing af few sites. You can disable Java, and it will of course not load the JRE, but it still takes about 17MB!
- It's a pain to manage bookmarks - I tried to rearrange the imported bookmarks from IE, but I gave up at last:-(
In the wed. edition of the biggest Danish newspaper (called Jyllands Posten), there was an interview with Steve Balmer where he states pretty clealy that they have absolutely no intention of porting.NET to Linux/Unix!
a) I can't remember the details, but the reasons the KDE team dropped Corba support was very valid, and I don't think they would have dropped it if it wasn't because they had very valid reasons to do so - they had done a lot of work before making that decision.
Furthermore the new standard they are using is of course an open standard, which you are free to use.
b + c + d) I would rather not comment on, because I don't have any knowledge about it, although I've often read that Qt is a pretty cool API, which the KDE Team has stated many times, was the reason they at first chosed it - it is about choosing the right/best tool for the job.
e) This one I can partly agree on, I find KDE more "polished". By that I mean that most applications looks equal - KDE has much more consistency throughout all the applications, there aren't many applications that "breaks" the design of the interface. I think Gnome is heading that way too with Nautilus, Evolution, etc.
[This is not formulated very well - I hope you get the point]
On the whole, KDE typically wins the award for first implementation of something. GNOME is typically a bit behind, but wins the award for the BETTER implementation.
Now I'm not a KDE or GNOME guru, but I would like to see some facts that support that statement. Which parts of KDE2 is badly implemented and where does GNOME have a BETTER implementation?
kde2, NO CSS SUPPORT. this means no html4 complaince, not even loose.
No CSS support? Have you even looked at the KDE site the last year? You must have been living on the moon or something - Konqueror supports most of CSS AFAIK!
Further - what has CSS to do with HTML4 compliance? It is 2 seperate standards? You can easily be html4 compliant without CSS!
You're a troll, and I shouldn't spend time om commenting it - I shouldn't even be reading your comment. I will not take you serious as long as you post as an AC.
Konqueror is an amazing browser, it's sad that a lot of people will never touch it, just because it is a KDE app.
The only site I've seen it doesn't display correctly, is www.zdnet.com
It has excellent cookie handling, you can set the minimum font size and it is faster than every other browser I've seen (including, Mozilla, IE4/5/5.5, Netscape, Opera)!
Those who haven't even given it a try yet, should really take the time at give it a try - you will not be disappointed!
I've just installed Debian 2.2, and here is my take.
Installation is not as easy as, say Mandrake or Redhat, but it is not that difficult either.
It can (as far as I remember) partly configure X for you, but else, XF86Setup is available.
Debian does not support RPM's - it uses.deb packages. You can convert RPM's to.deb, I believe, but I don't think it is recommended. This shouldn't hold you of Debian - keeping a Debian system up to date is pretty easy! You only have to type "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade" and your system is up to date - now is that cool a what!?
So please let people speak for themselves instead of playing the victim and throwing a pitty party.
I, of course, don't think that all people on/. is like that, I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of flames against KDE. Imho KDE hasn't been treated very well here at/. - just look at the amount of stories that are Gnome related versus KDE related./. is "Gnome-country" and if you use KDE, you suck.
I'm glad to see that you at least isn't that way - thanks!
I'd debate that. Now if you'd said the Gnome/GNU/FSF true-believers are the more vocal, dare I say even annoying, posters, then that's another issue;->
You are right, I'm not always that good in making myself clear and combined with the fact that english is not my native language...you get the point.
KDE has been "flamed" a lot because of licensing issues, but not any longer, so what are they going to bitch about now?:-)
(beats me why, I just want what suits me best)
If you keep making sense like that, you'll never get into the proper/. frame of mind...
But I think it is because most of the people here are pro Gnome and most of them don't intent to even just try KDE2 - it's nearly a religion to many (beats me why, I just want what suits me best).
We are all free to use whatever we like - right now I would say the best browser for Linux is Konqueror and I feel sad for all the (Gnome) people that haven't "met" Konqueror:-)
I know I shouldn't comment on this (AC) post, but oh well...
Have you even tried KDE2.0 or one of the beta versions?
My guess is that you haven't - then how can you say that he is a karma whore?
I think he might be right (I'm not saying he is)! KDE2 really is *that* much better than KDE1.x - it is highly modular integrates a lot of new features, "bells and whistles" without being slower than the previous versions!
Disclaimer: I use Helix Gnome right now, but I'm sure going to try out KDE2.
Slashdot Mirror
That is all about taste...
Some people like GNOME, some people find KDE more pleasing - nothing strange in that. It's just like there are many different cars because people have different taste.
Greetings Joergen
Short answer: Money talks!
Long answer:
As more and more people realize that you can get a complete DE for free, more people will go for GNOME/KDE/Whatever that fits them. It will not happen overnight, but as the DE's matures it will get more and more attractive. The PC manufactures will also be tempted til dump Windows, so they don't have to pay the "MS Tax".
The GNOME/KDE DE's are not quite ready yet - they are close, but there are a few things which is not there yet. Installing new apps is one of them - it isn't easy enough, but Helixcode's Red Carpet looks like a killer!.
Greetings Joergen
If you would like to know more about (software) patents (and you ought to if you if you are in the software business and live in Europe), here is some links:
SSLUG (Skåne Sjælland Linux User Group) has created an article called "Software patents - No thanks!". You can find it here.
"The EuroLinux File on Software Patents" also has a lot of information right here
Greetings Joergen
I agree with most of your comment, but I don't quite agree with you about the "horribly slow file managers". You can't have tried Konqueror, or your KDE2 installation must have been broken in some way, because Konqueror is at pretty cool and fast filemanager imnsho. The Control Panel in KDE2 is a bit confusing and overwhelming, but it's not that bad. Furthermore, I don't use the Control Panel directly, I just use the startmenu and launch the "Configuration panel" (I don't know what else to call it) from there.
A thing still lacking is stability (not the kernel, but in the desktop environment), but KDE2 has just been released and I expect that it will be better when KDE 2.01 is soon released and maybe it is just because my install is broken, but it is (at the moment) a standard Mandrake 7.2 install, so it ought to be more stable than what I've experienced until now.
Another thing is an easier way to install new applications. it shouldn't be necesary to go use the CLI ever to install any app, but it often is. Furthermore the applications automatically (or ask about it) put an icon in the startmenu and elsewhere. Helixcode's Red Carpet looks pretty cool.
Greetings Joergen
Congratulation from a Danish citizen!
Greetings Joergen
Reviews are all over the net now...here is some of them:
Anandtech
HardOCP - on HardOCP's frontpage you can find more links to reviews.
Toms Hardware hasn't got his review up yet, but I bet it will be soon...
Greetings Joergen
Ups...that wasn't to well formulated, sorry about that.
English isn't my native language...
Greetings Joergen
This not just about crushing Gnome, this is about promoting KDE to all the desktop users which isn't using KDE - most of these are Windows users.
Greetings Joergen
One could only hope this would help the two groups collaborate more...
That sure would be nice, but it is going to be difficult to archieve. Futhermore, the KDE League has *nothing* to do with the development of KDE, it is only about pr (as stated other places and pretty clearly in the press release!).
Greetings Joergen
Sure, more choice is generally a good thing, but the ongoing farce of GNOME vs. KDE (which is what they seem to be making it into) is a joke that makes Linux look rediculous. There is plenty of room out there for both desktops, yet they each spend as much time playing games of oneupmanship as they do promoting their own product.
/. - the core KDE Team (and the core GNOME Team) has mostly just quietly been hacking away, making the best desktop environment!
What farce are you talking about?
If there is a farce, then it has only been here on
This is not about making GNOME look silly - I bet it is more about promoting KDE to ex. Windows users and others. The more publishty Linux gets, the more KDE (and GNOME) will get - this will give the press a single place to go for information about KDE.
Greetings Joergen
I've tried it (Celeron 366, 128MB RAM, NT4) - here is my take:
:-(
- It's relatively fast (but Konqueror is faster and IE is faster too).
- It takes a long time to load.
- It loads the JRE on startup - why? That makes it take 24-25MB memory and I've got it up beyond 40MB just browsing af few sites. You can disable Java, and it will of course not load the JRE, but it still takes about 17MB!
- It's a pain to manage bookmarks - I tried to rearrange the imported bookmarks from IE, but I gave up at last
Greetings Joergen
No they aren't!
.NET to Linux/Unix!
In the wed. edition of the biggest Danish newspaper (called Jyllands Posten), there was an interview with Steve Balmer where he states pretty clealy that they have absolutely no intention of porting
Greetings Joergen
a) I can't remember the details, but the reasons the KDE team dropped Corba support was very valid, and I don't think they would have dropped it if it wasn't because they had very valid reasons to do so - they had done a lot of work before making that decision.
Furthermore the new standard they are using is of course an open standard, which you are free to use.
b + c + d) I would rather not comment on, because I don't have any knowledge about it, although I've often read that Qt is a pretty cool API, which the KDE Team has stated many times, was the reason they at first chosed it - it is about choosing the right/best tool for the job. e) This one I can partly agree on, I find KDE more "polished". By that I mean that most applications looks equal - KDE has much more consistency throughout all the applications, there aren't many applications that "breaks" the design of the interface. I think Gnome is heading that way too with Nautilus, Evolution, etc.
[This is not formulated very well - I hope you get the point]
Greetings Joergen
On the whole, KDE typically wins the award for first implementation of something. GNOME is typically a bit behind, but wins the award for the BETTER implementation.
Now I'm not a KDE or GNOME guru, but I would like to see some facts that support that statement. Which parts of KDE2 is badly implemented and where does GNOME have a BETTER implementation?
Greetings Joergen
Just a short comment...
kde2, NO CSS SUPPORT. this means no html4 complaince, not even loose.
No CSS support? Have you even looked at the KDE site the last year? You must have been living on the moon or something - Konqueror supports most of CSS AFAIK!
Further - what has CSS to do with HTML4 compliance? It is 2 seperate standards? You can easily be html4 compliant without CSS!
You're a troll, and I shouldn't spend time om commenting it - I shouldn't even be reading your comment. I will not take you serious as long as you post as an AC.
Thanks for the tip - I'll try it. Anyway, it isn't a big problem for me, because I go there very seldom, but I sure will send the webmaster a note...
I'll second that!
Konqueror is an amazing browser, it's sad that a lot of people will never touch it, just because it is a KDE app.
The only site I've seen it doesn't display correctly, is www.zdnet.com
It has excellent cookie handling, you can set the minimum font size and it is faster than every other browser I've seen (including, Mozilla, IE4/5/5.5, Netscape, Opera)!
Those who haven't even given it a try yet, should really take the time at give it a try - you will not be disappointed!
Disclaimer: I'm a Linux newbie :-)
.deb packages. You can convert RPM's to .deb, I believe, but I don't think it is recommended. This shouldn't hold you of Debian - keeping a Debian system up to date is pretty easy! You only have to type "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade" and your system is up to date - now is that cool a what!?
I've just installed Debian 2.2, and here is my take.
Installation is not as easy as, say Mandrake or Redhat, but it is not that difficult either.
It can (as far as I remember) partly configure X for you, but else, XF86Setup is available.
Debian does not support RPM's - it uses
So please let people speak for themselves instead of playing the victim and throwing a pitty party.
/. is like that, I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of flames against KDE. Imho KDE hasn't been treated very well here at /. - just look at the amount of stories that are Gnome related versus KDE related. /. is "Gnome-country" and if you use KDE, you suck.
I, of course, don't think that all people on
I'm glad to see that you at least isn't that way - thanks!
I'd debate that. Now if you'd said the Gnome/GNU/FSF true-believers are the more vocal, dare I say even annoying, posters, then that's another issue ;->
:-)
/. frame of mind...
You are right, I'm not always that good in making myself clear and combined with the fact that english is not my native language...you get the point.
KDE has been "flamed" a lot because of licensing issues, but not any longer, so what are they going to bitch about now?
(beats me why, I just want what suits me best)
If you keep making sense like that, you'll never get into the proper
I'm not sure I understand what you mean?
Me too - Konqueror is pretty amazing!
:-)
But I think it is because most of the people here are pro Gnome and most of them don't intent to even just try KDE2 - it's nearly a religion to many (beats me why, I just want what suits me best).
We are all free to use whatever we like - right now I would say the best browser for Linux is Konqueror and I feel sad for all the (Gnome) people that haven't "met" Konqueror
I know I shouldn't comment on this (AC) post, but oh well...
Have you even tried KDE2.0 or one of the beta versions?
My guess is that you haven't - then how can you say that he is a karma whore? I think he might be right (I'm not saying he is)! KDE2 really is *that* much better than KDE1.x - it is highly modular integrates a lot of new features, "bells and whistles" without being slower than the previous versions!
Disclaimer: I use Helix Gnome right now, but I'm sure going to try out KDE2.
Well I can certainly say, that from what I have testet, KDE2 is not a bit slower than (Helix) Gnome.
Furthermore I find KDE to be more polished" and "clean", but then again - this is also just my opinion.
I've submitted this to /. more than once, but got rejected every time - instead other (inferior) solutions gets posted!?
Adomo is creating what you are looking for!
Take a look at this preview of their solution - it is pretty cool!