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Formation of the KDE League
Several folks noted that the KDE team has announced a collaboration
with industry, similiar to the GNOME foundation ... it's called the
KDE League. If only they can get Green Lantern and Aquagirl to join existing members like TrollTech, Corel, HP, IBM, MandrakeSoft,
and SuSE. (Noticably missing from the official press release
are names like Red Hat and VA Linux.)
CmdrTaco not being able to spell
Any chance we could make a version of Mozilla with a Word-style system such that it underlines misspelled words? I think this would be a good thing in general. Any site could have a special dictionary file with site-specific terms that wouldn't get so underlined.
Is there a universally recognized format for Unicode that parallels (but hopefully isn't as inconsistent as -- Mac, Unix, and PC all use different end of line indications) ASCII?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
If you're tired of the old GNOME vs. KDE flamewar, take out your frustration on a friend in GNOME vs. KDE: Battle of the Desktops for the NES. (Get a GPL'd NES emulator for GNU/Linux86 systems with X11 here.)
ObTopic: I've tried both (KDE on a Slack box and GNOME on a Red Hat box); they're both quite nice, and they're both Free. The creation of the KDE League (learn to spell, Rob!) and the GNOME Foundation show that there will be friendly competition. This is a Good Thing.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Well, you could say that Oslo, Norway, Trolltech's home base is rural, well, it might be in a global perspective, but I really ROTFLed when I read the press release, because among the rather largish companies, there is Klarälvdalens Datakonsult. Well, for those who don't know, Klarälvdalen is really rural Sweden. It's pretty much in the middle of nowhere, by Swedish standards. Nevertheless, if you happen to love nature, forests, rivers, hunting, etc., like I happen to do, well, it's not bad at all, it could well be the place to be. My uncle lives not too far away, BTW.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
A) You were talking about the MS Developer subscription thingy for $2500. No, that is not charged per developer like Trolltech does. It's worse! It's charged per CPU! So you have to pay it all over again if you want to work at home.
B) You can't compare Qt to dev-studio. They do completely different things! dev-studio is an IDE. Qt is a cross-platform GUI toolkit. How hard is it to understand? If you are uninterested in cross-platform development, then at least make the more rational comparison between Qt and MFC. In terms of Qt/MFC, Qt is filet mignon while MFC is chopped liver.
C) It's perfectly reasonable for you to want to pay zero dollars for the tools you need to create your for-profit software. But that's not reality. If your sole criteria in selecting your tools is initial monetary outlay then by all means don't use Qt. Don't use any microsoft tools either. Stick to tcl/tk.
D) It's outrageous that I have to spend $7.99 a pound for beef when the charities are giving away cheese, said the chef.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Greetings, coder! You have been recruited by the KDE League to defend the frontier from the Windows Armada....
--
Never knock on Death's door.
Ring the doorbell and run
(He hates that).
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
Yes I have, and while it is a step in the right direction it has a long way to go. I love Linux, but I tire of these stupid wars. All this in fighting over desktop environment and I still can't get a decent email client.
To fail is human, to blue screen MS!
See the League write over GF's configuration files right out of package!
Watch in amazement as Gnomies flood the field with features!
Feel the heat of battle at the Slashdot Arena!
What geeks really miss is sports.
(*urgh* not quite
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Actually, that's not the angle I'm coming from. The angle I'm coming from is that the GPL prevents commerical companies from writing commerical KDE apps. The LGPL used for the GNOME libraries allows commerical apps. If those are your choices, and you write commerical apps...
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
what is wrong with people trying to get money for their work? doh!
Oh, and QT/Embedded looks pretty cool. I just picked up the O'Reilly "Learning QT" book, and I'm sort of excited that I'll be able to code for handhelds/embedded systems pretty soon.
I'm even considering writing a car stereo system/GPS/wireless mobile internet system with QT Embedded as the GUI, since I'll probably be able to hand select the hardware, and I don't really need super high resolution for it.
In fact, Im pretty sure thats one of the reasons of their distro being so popular lately...
They used to be "RedHat+KDE+bugfixes" but now they've moved on to offer a full-fledged distro, with original software of their own, not just correcting RedHats mistakes.
No sig for the moment.
All this talk about tights and masks is turning me on.
Mandrakesoft isn't the only member of both. Compaq, HP, IBM, & TurboLinux are also in both.
Wow, I hand't heard. This is really big news. When did Microsoft Open-Source windows?
Seriously, though, what makes you think that this alliance is solely, or even primarily, aimed at out-marketing GNOME? From what (little) I have seen, the KDE folk, or at least the core developers, tend to treat GNOME by ignoring it as much as humanly possible. Basically, they just don't care. This seems to be a very sane approach, especially compared with the vitriol that I have seen from the GNOME core. Serious Open Source users know about KDE/KDE 2 and don't need any more info or propaganda (which is very unlikely to change their viewpoint, anyway). If I were influential in the KDE league, I know I would be aiming squarely at newbies who are still a little lost, to present the options to them more than anything else, and Windows users who would love to escape, but don't know how.
TurboLinux is a member, at it is strongest in Asia. Asia is located outside US last I checked.
The Gnome Foundation oversees Gnome development, whereas the KDE League is a single point of contact for marketing: it exists to "provide financial, moral and promotional support to KDE", to quote the PR, and promises to leave development as a freely-coordinated effort of the developers. Both groups are useful entities IMO, although ISTM a bit ironic that the one with reportedly larger market share on the desktop is launching a marketing initiative. :) I am curious as to how the League was formed: were there elections, as for Gnome Foundation and FreeBSD Core Team? There is, unfortunately, no further info on the KDE League's website just yet.
I feel the same way about the GNOME Foundation. I don't understand why free projects need these silly corporate steering and promotion committees. Why not let people choose on the merits of the system, not the hype surrounding it? I moved away from Windows as my primary desktop OS at home years ago before all the damn hype started. Although Linux is arguably a better and more feature-rich OS today, I liked the community back then a lot better.
I got involved developing for KDE because of it's technical merits and ease of programming. I think having big name companies with a bottom line handle PR for projects like KDE and GNOME as a bad thing.
"Evil beware: I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hampster!"
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
Why does debian not have kde on dselect, but it does have gnome?
seriously, I have been wondering this.
The goals of the KDE League and the GNOME Foundation are quite different. The GNOME Foundation is a "steering committee". It's elected board is responsible for deciding the future of GNOME development, coordinating GNOME releases, deciding which projects are part of GNOME, and more. The KDE League exists solely to promote and educate -- it does not "steer" KDE development in any way.
...
Here's another way to think of it: The GNOME Foundation is very similar in goals and structure to the Apache Foundation. KDE League, on the other hand, is much more like Linux International
So both are different things
A non-profit IPO? That doesn't even make sense.
Did you read the release?
I think it's... cool. It's very different from the GNOME Foundation in that it does not affect development. Development will go on the way it always did, and members can contribute if they wish, but the KDE League is specifically for PR only.
Also, Ettrich did not set up a company as an attempt to make money from KDE like certain other people...
There are two possible ways to compete:
This one could go either way. Remember BSD vs System V, then System V vs OSF, and Open Look vs Motif? All these battles just about killed the Unix market in favor of Windows; fortunately Linux and BSD came along to put new life into Unix.
If the Gnome and KDE folks are interested in way #1, then they will put substantial energy in making sure that KDE apps work well on a Gnome desktop and vice versa, and they will avoid the nasty attacks on the other side we so commonly see Example: when the Gnome Foundation was created it was bitterly attacked by many KDE partisans as something terribly immoral, yet now we see the KDE League, a roughly identical operation. Now, there's nothing wrong with either one, so it was the attacks that were bogus.
932 vs 89 - are you guys like old men or something?
89 is his message ID, not his user ID. In Slashdot terms, I'm definitely a geezer, however.
A spell-checker would probably be a turn-on, turn-off kind of thing, meant for making it easier for companies to review their sites and find the most egregious errors. Given Slashdot's "creative" spelling, making it easier to do this is a Good Thing.
I'd like a similar button for displaying/not displaying images. That would have utility not just for webmasters (who could more easily review their site for utility for the blind), but also for speeding up page views.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Please do not say "could care less" when you mean "couldn't care less". It just makes you look ideotic.
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That's funny, I find it amazing that you can fail to see the parallels between the Gnome Foundation and the KDE League. I mean really, your whole post reminds me of a Monty Python skit. Do you really think that these corporations are going to throw money at the KDE project without getting any control back in return? At the very least the people running these corporations employ the current KDE developers. That implies a certain amount of control right there.
Politics in America are fun, and not only for Europeans. However, before you laugh too much at our expense remember that America is not the first country in the world where we have had close election results. Unlike most other countries where something like this happens, however, a close election will not destroy the system. Eventually we will have a President, and that will be the end of the matter (until the next election). In a lot of other countries people would be stockpiling food and making sure that their weapons were loaded and ready.
Heck, in many parts of Europe there is more trouble after a football match than has been caused by this election. Arguing is part of the American system in much the same way that public arguing is an important part of the Open Source movement.
The fact that the KDE League closely resembles the Gnome Foundation (the differences are semantics) does not get me off the hook, nor does it give me ammunition. I don't happen to think that hypocrisy is not a particularly big deal. When the Gnome Foundation was announced, the KDE folks said some rash things, and made some hasty promises. However, they have now realized that the Gnome Foundation can afford to throw an order of magnitude more firepower at the problem of a Universal Unix desktop than the disparate KDE developers can. In order for KDE to be able to compete they are going to need the sort of corporate support, marketing, and developer help that the Gnome Foundation affords Gnome.
Now KDE has it, and that's a good thing. I just am not naive enough to pretend that the KDE League isn't exactly what the KDE developers said was bad about the Gnome Foundation. The fact of the matter is that these companies are going to make marketing promises, and the KDE developers are going to have to comply, or these companies are going to hire someone who will comply. In other words, the only difference between this alliance and the Gnome Foundation is that there aren't probably going to be hackers on the board of the KDE League.
This not just about crushing Gnome, this is about promoting KDE to all the desktop users which isn't using KDE - most of these are Windows users.
Greetings Joergen
It doesn't seem childish at all to me. It seems more like yet another sign of the Ascendancy of Linux. And even if it was only childish rivalry, well, at least it's the good kind - the kind that gets things done. And it comes with some free positive press too. A no-lose scenario.
So where on TrollTech's page can I buy a KDE CD? No T-shirts or stuffed dragons either. (Yes, I know some of these things are available elsewhere, but not through Troll Tech)
HelixCode sells GNOME and GNOME accesories.
Trolltech sells QT. KDE is a powerful example of the kind of software you can make under QT. They fund it's development for that reason but does not sell it.
That's the difference.
For many kinds of libraries, assuming that funding is needed at all, I would agree with your statement that Troll Tech's business model is the most plausible one and may represent the best compromise. But for something as central and as well understood as GUI libraries, it seems unnecessary to make that compromise because there are alternatives.
Big players like Sun and RedHat have an intrinsic interest in seeing a high quality set of GUI libraries available on Linux platforms to make Linux a viable platform and increase its adoption. Those companies make their money from systems sales, not supporting a GUI library. Therefore, they can (and apparently do) afford supporting Gnome/Gtk as a free toolkit even for commercial applications.
As for all the scenarios you paint, I don't see a problem at all. Gtk is LGPL, and that can't be taken back. Mozilla is MPL. If people build, in accordance with the license, commercial software based on free software and you don't like the commercial software, just don't use it. If Troll Tech released Qt under the MPL and built a commercial browser with lots of banner ads on it, that would be just fine with me.
I actually also have serious doubts that big commercial funding is really needed at the toolkit level (it may be needed at the application level). There are probably half a dozen well-designed GUI toolkits besides Qt and Gtk out there. The issue is really one of market share and acceptance.
That's what I was thinking!
"The KDE League of America"--it looks remarkably like the "Evil Legion of Windows", except with cooler costumes. Unfortunately, "The GNOME League of Justice" still has even cooler costumes.
Where do I sign up???
>But the KDE/Qt license (GPL/QPL), while better
>than a pure GPL, is simply not commercially
>competitive
If you look at just the initial investment - sure, nothing beats "no cost" (except subsidies). But with information sciences, you simply do not look at initial investment and then write this off. Information (a class library) is a non-perishable good, so you exploit this - forever. IOW, you *once* have an investment of USD 1500 which can amortized over the whole life-time of of your company (in the extreme).
Ignoring the assumption of a going concern, let's assume that you benefit from such a licence for two years. That makes the licence costs approximately USD 13 per week. And these USD 13 per week are *easily* offset by cost savings due to quality of the library: spare a single developer 15 minutes of his time per week, and your cost has been amortized.
It is widely acknowledged that the quality of QT is exceptional, so saving these 15 minutes of developer time per week is peanuts, compared to horrible "no cost" libraries.
FWIW, if you talk investment, you need to go all the way.
I suppose calling it a "league" instead of a "foundation" makes it better...considering the flak the KDE people sent GNOME's way when the GNOME Foundation started, I hope they're eating lots of crow right now. Reading the press release, I see little to differentiate between the GNOME Foundation and the KDE League except, of course, that KDE League members are apparently supposed to abstain from KDE development.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Down with the peoples, reform the system.
S. Willoughby
Maybe they want do something new
Giving there users a choice.
Guy Gardner would be just the type of GL to join the KDE Legaue.
In their headquarters deep within the earth's crust, they debate the future of the world's most windows-like Linux window manager.
www.ridiculopathy.com
You mean they weren't talking about Wayne Chrebet?
BilldaCat
How is this mocking KDE? When I saw the name "KDE League", that's the exact joke *I* thought of too, and I'm a KDE supporter. (If any one cares, I've been using KDE since KDE 1.0beta2) "League" is just so superhero-esque, the joke springs to the American mind.
As for spelling, it's tue tat Slshdot is bade abut typoes, but this has been pointed out quite enough by now.
--Lenny
I can't believe they called it a Leage and not a Kouncil, a Konfederation, or a Ko-operative.
BTW, I know this is OT, but am I the only one who's a little bit disappointed with KDE-2.0?
I belive im talking about STARTING the software, daily use
runs fine.
ETRN x
Only TWO large political parties in your country, and you call yourself a democracy ;-?
Over here we've got FIVE, and I can't remember when any of them had a majority. They have to for m two or three party coalisions to form a government and it seems to work ok.
Johan V.
Back in the late eighties, UNIX was a spreaded bunch of various corporate OSes.
ATT & Sun joined together to create a so-called "standard" UNIX around System V release 4. They took the guts of NeWS out, and used the GUI to create a toolkit for X called OpenLook.
All other vendors, feeling threatened by this collaboration, created the Open Software Foundation. The OSF response to OpenLook was Motif.
All of this ended with lots and lots of incompatible OSes and produced nothing but developers disinterest in producing desktop applications either for OpenLook or Motif.
Now, I wonder what's the agenda of the so-called open source corporate backers. History is repeating guys. Aren't you seeing that, yet?!
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It's perfectly understandable why Redhat didn't join. Not only were they the first to publicly declare distributors of KDE to be criminals (they have since retracted their allegations), they also fund a good portion of GNOME development. And VA Linux tends to blow in the same breeze as Redhat.
Who cares if VAL and RH aren't members of a KDE league? What difference would it make?
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Standards have to be set somewhere. Two political parties and two DE's are not the same. You can switch political parties without totally restructuring the country. Switch DE's and you might as well be running a different OS.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
the KDE League is nothing at all like the Gnome foundation. At all. We will never create something like the Gnome foundation, ever.
The KDE League is just a glorified PR department for KDE. I for one know that KDE needs it.
When we vote for the President of Linux, are we going to do away with the electoral college?
Yes, in open source world any competition is a healthy competition, which leads to better quality and quick development of software (for the sake of competition). In closed source world (aka proprietary world), both the competitors tries to demolish each other; so, here only one survives. I strongly believe that Both Gnome and KDE will not just survive but also develop into one of THE BEST Desktop Environments aiding each other like friends...:-)
I use beanix. It's a lesser known *NIX variant. It runs on Coffee.
Please help! I'm stuck inside my virtual reality headset!
All generalizations are false.
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I like to watch.
- "Right to code" Membership: $1,000,000 US
- Gold Membership: $100,000 US
- Silver Membership: $50,000 US
- Bronze Membership: $10,000 US
- Regular Membership: $10 Canadian
- Unfashionable Membership: free
Sure it sounds like a lot of money, but hey as we all know CTWM is the one true desktop . Those bloated KDE and GNOME products simply don't match the power and speed of a well configured CTWM! So join IBM, Microsoft and Apple in supporting the CTWM REPUBLIC!(*).(*) this particular sentence is a lie, the rest is true...mostly... what is definitely true is that I personally prefer CTWM to all those other inferior desktop systems
STFU about slashdot bias.
So, basically what you are saying is that somebody sent an email saying that they wouldn't have an elected governing board and now they DON'T have an elected governing board? Excellent investigative reporting there! Yeah, remember when Linus said they were going to have devfs included in 2.4? Guess what, they do! But man, that promise seems fairly disingenuous now, I don't think I can believe another word he says.
My other
Amazon.Com
And you say non-profit IPOs don't make sense!
When are we going to see the XFce Alliance and the Enlightenment Confederacy?
I don't know why people seem to be surprised at Red Hat not being part of this - it's not as if they've been one of the companies you'd associate with KDE. The fact is that if they had joined up, slashdot would be covered in messages about them using M$ style tactics, trying to control things, embrace and extend and all that. I'm not a Red Hat user (anymore), but I thnk they've made the right choice by not just jumping in on this.
:)
Nor am I a KDE user (I use GNOME and XFCE), but I think this is a good thing for the community. Choice is good, and having corporate backers for the two main choices that are going to get Linux onto the world's desktops has to be a good thing. IBM stand out in the list for me, they (IIRC) are also part of the GNOME Foundation. Having Big Blue back both desktop options says to the business world that this is serious, Linux is worth looking at.
World domination here we come!
--
Listening for the sound of the coming rain...
The GNOME Foundation is formed with the notable absence of plenty of Linux companies, and Taco says hooray... The KDE League is formed with the notable absence of Red Hat and VA, and Taco poo poos the thing.
You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth, Malda. But hey, at least you didn't beg people not to flame you this time. I guess you decided after the last "I'm flaming but please don't flame me back" comment you made (I think it was when the Caldera/SCO merger was announced) that you really deserve to be treated the same way you treat others. I'll give you that much credit.
From the FAQ of the kde-league-website:
Q8: What about the "when pigs fly" comment?
This is in reference to the following quote by KDE Developer Kurt Granroth in a personal editorial:
"This somehow brings me to the another question that has been frequently asked: Will KDE ever have a corporate-backed 'foundation' deciding it's future? While I'm not arrogant enough to think I can guarantee what the future will hold, I am still reasonably secure in saying that pigs will probably fly first. A board like that flies square in the face of everything that the KDE project stands for."
Furthermore, in the KDE Official Response:
"Now we have been asked 'Will KDE ever create a KDE Foundation in the same sense as the GNOME Foundation?' The answer to this is no, absolutely not. KDE has always been and always will be controlled by the developers that work on it and are willing to do the code. We will resist any and all attempts to change this."
The question then is: Were these earlier comments a lie?
No. Both statements were true at the time, are true now, and will always be true. KDE will never have a coporate-backed group deciding it's future. We have stressed many times that the KDE League exists soley for promotion and education.. it does not have any effect on the development or future of KDE
We realize that this may seem like a lot of noise over a minor distinction, but we assure you that the KDE Project does not consider this distinction to be minor at all! The fact that KDE was, is, and always will be governed 100% by the developers that work on it is a point of pride within the Project. It is also one of the factors that differentiate us from nearly all other very large Open Source projects.
Seems they are alone in that case! (they have announced they joinded GNOME Foundation yesterday!)... Well done!
ok this is not meant to be a troll or start a flame... but... i've read through the posts here and although the press releases say that the kde league is only a pr arm what will make it from having more influence?
it sounds like good intentions, but forgive me for not trusting large corperations in this day and age
the other point i'd like to make is... everyone seems to want linux to spread... but most of the arguments i've seen are about what makes it easier for the developer... yes developers are important, but if you want it to have common appeal, then you need to make it more appealing for the common user kde2 seems to have that potential and hopefully gnome2 will as well
i'm not a developer(i'm a consultant), so i could care less about cobra or things like whether or not c or c++ is better... i just want something that works and that my users can use w/o too much trouble
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
Yeah, they'll look for sympathy elsewhere alright: it's called GNOME. GNOME is under the LGPL, making it perfect for companies that want to develope software - and that's why, even though KDE is nicer and better than GNOME, it is currently doomed to fail as a viable desktop.
Let's say that Company A wants to write Product B for Linux, so they look at their options: KDE (Qt), GNOME (GTK+), Motif. What are they going to choose? More than likely, they'll go with the free one - GTK+, meaning GNOME. That's why the GNOME Foundation was first - because it is commerically viable to produce programs for that environment.
To give you some perspective, it costs a third-party application vender around $500 per developer to write programs for Windows - that's assuming they decide to use MS DevStudio (I think you can get just Visual C++ for around $250 - and that is literally everything you need to write for Windows). If you pay around $2500 a year, then MS gives you a damn sweet deal, sending the developer
In other words, writing commercial software for Microsoft OSes is actually cheaper then writing for Qt!
Compare: MSDN subscription overview, Trolltech licencing.
If you still think this doesn't matter, think again - it is very important from a commerical software house's point of view.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
So, your amortization over the lifetime of the company doesn't work. Many companies will have to keep buying Qt licenses, not just every year, but every time they get a new person on board to replace an existing developer.
Whether it's worth it or not should be up to each company to decide for themselves. We have licensed different commercial toolkits in the past, after careful evaluation, so I have no problem in principle with licensing commercial software. What I have a problem with is if my commercial choices get limited because a company uses the open source community as a marketing gimmick.
If Troll Tech succeeds at becoming the predominant toolkit for the Linux desktop, there won't be any choice anymore: commercial developers will have to buy their toolkit because that's what their customers will expect from "professional" applications. The situation won't be any different than it is with MFC on Windows right now.
To see this in stark contrast, compare http://foundation.gnome.org/membership.html (all individual contributors) to http://www.kdeleague.org/members.html (all corporations) It takes motherfucking BRASS BALLS to look at these two lists and say the GNOME Foundation represents corporate control but the KDE League does not. Also, look at these ludicrously corporate bylaws where corporations that pay more money can get more votes: http://www.kdeleague.org/bylaws.html And compare them to this charter, where each individual gets one vote, and corporations get 0 no matter how much they pay: http://foundation.gnome.org/charter.html Take a look at the KDE League bylaws article V, sections (b) and (c), where an Executive committee of two corporate board members and one hacker member can mae decisions without consulting the board.
Think about it.
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
For once there will be no one for the marketroids to interfere with =)
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Thanks, erat! Well said, not just the usual Malda bashing. It's amazing how the KDE team keeps pumping out great stuff while ignoring most of the BS from this side of the Atlantic.
Mandrake 7.2 and KDE 2 for me? for free?
1000 SlashDot sigs
what makes you think that this alliance is solely, or even primarily, aimed at out-marketing GNOME?
GNOME's sole existence is to outmarket KDE. It was started from day one with this purpose. They will do so forever, or until KDE is collapsed. Should GNOME collapse, people will not stop bitching about KDE's evils. Therefore, every step KDE makes will just be further reason to hate them. There is no other way around it for these wackos. There can be only one desktop used by all users! Viva la resistance!!
Ups...that wasn't to well formulated, sorry about that.
English isn't my native language...
Greetings Joergen
when the gnome foundation was founded, didn't the kde team say they didn't need anything like this?
i wonder what changed?
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
I hope you remember your bold statements when the next /. news come about eazels business model and integration with nautilus and that of this other gnome company, from miguel "can't spell his surname" (really). In fact, Eazels plans reminds me a little bit of the well it's-for-free-so-put-up-with-the-Ads Netscape Navigator.
You know what? These are companies and they have to make money...
Inherently every open source business modell is dependent on a more widespread usage of it's target software than closed source companies, because essentially they charge for service.
So get over it, please, and don't criticize troll as if they had a secret super plan to rip of poor open source developers like yourself.
Oh, and to get an idea why companies might WANT to pay for a toolkit (let aside troll's excellent,guaranted support - they ain't MS), you should consider the story with enlightenment. Rasterman just wanted the development of his pet peeve to go in another direction as red hat, so he left.
Would E have been an very essential part (library) of redhats systems, they might have have been in for some trouble.
With QT borland/inprise are in the position of customers, and they know that troll should better not go into esoteric directions with their development.
DISCLAIMER: The above shall not be FUD against gtk, but instead decribe that in the viewpoint of a company paying for the toolkit may have positive points.
The GNOME Foundation is governed by a community elected group, which makes decisions over GNOME's direction. The corporations form a separate advisory committee that has no power.
In the KDE League, the corps have equal power to the developers, but the League has no power over the development direction of KDE. It is more of a P.R. campaign, which is still a good idea considering all the questions that were raised by the appearance of all the corps lining up behind GNOME.
You are right, they are not alike at all, and neither are something to be concerned about. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding between the two camps. Some people in KDE circles spread a lot of FUD about the GNOME foundation, and I think it's going to come back to haunt them now.
It doesn't matter. The big impact of the article is that KDE developers said they wouldn't do something like this and then turned face and did. I use both KDE and Gnome and have found good and bad things in both of them. But the actions of the KDE developers make me feel like I'm back in Redmond.
Note that I was being sarcastic (hence the "oh-so-much..."). I'm a KDE user myself, since I have better things to do than spend a few hours compiling all the crap required to have Gnome 'running' . Yes, I know about helixcode; yes, it's neat; and no, I won't run binaries that I haven't built myself.
Set your phasers to 'get-over-it', sir.
"We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
> Why does debian not have kde on dselect
It does (see http://packages.debian.org/unstable/x11
It's just that it's in the unstable branch since KDE has only recently been packaged up for Debian, since until recently KDE was not Free enough for Debian's policies.
So, down the line KDE will appear in Debian stable, but only after any emerging package issues are sorted.
-~ ~- -~ ~-
__
Arse
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
> any truth to this?
> > http://www.zdnet.c om/ zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2626017,00.html
We have stated in the past that KDE will *never* have an elected governing board like GNOME Foundation. Absolutely nothing has happened or will happen to change that. --
Kurt Granroth | http://www.granroth.org
KDE Developer/Evangelist | SuSE Labs Open Source Developer
granroth@kde.org | granroth@suse.com
Now, it is true that this is not an elected governing board, but that response seems fairly disingenuous now. Plus "KDE League" is an extremely stupid name.
That's the funniest thing I've seen on Slashdot in a long time!
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
What exactly is the purpose of the KDE foundation?
The GNOME foundation is easy for me to understand, it is a means for companies with talented teams of developers to contribute to the GNOME project, similar to the way IBM works with Open Source developers on the Apache project and has many members on the Apache Foundation's steering comittee (if it's called that) and Netscape works with Mozilla and has a lot of it's developers guiding Mozilla's development. In fact the GNOME press release expressly states that it is modelled after the Apache Foundation
On the other hand, the KDE foundation makes very little sense to me. KDE is an Open Source project, not a commercial endeavour, so why does it need a huge multi-corporation PR-team? Interestingly the KDE press release goes out of its way to state that this is merely a marketing (i.e. propoganda) machine. I'm sorry but I'm a developer, and the idea of an Open Source project forming large ties with commercial entities for the express purpose of out-marketting another Open Source project feels awkward and doesn't sit right with me.
Am I the only one that is slightly disturbed by this?
Second Law of Blissful Ignorance
The difference is really in terms of licensing. People can develop commercial GUI applications with Gnome/Gtk+ without paying anybody. With KDE/Qt, commercial developers need to pay Troll Tech.
Some people seem to believe that the KDE/Qt approach, making commercial users pay, is more in the spirit of free software, while others believe that it will limit the adoption of any system based on Qt and that the free software community should not be doing the marketing and bug fixing for a commercial vendor. I suspect those differences of opinion won't get resolved either, but they are genuine, rational, and don't amount to "flaming".
I think you'd better write "most popular in Germany" because here in Europe we mostly see Red Hat and Mandrake.
Why wait? Solaris 8 10/00 already includes both KDE & GNOME on the Freeware Companion CD.
A bold statement that leads one to assume that you have lots of free time on your hands and very little imagination to use it wisely.
--
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
Not only were they the first to publicly declare distributors of KDE to be criminals (they have since retracted their allegations)
Where can one find those allegations, what were they exactly and who were they leveled against?
--
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
"...commercial users..need to pay $1500/developer..."
No, users don't have to pay to use KDE or Qt. Perhaps you meant proprietary commercial developers. There's a big difference.
"that's more than people pay for a very complete, industry-standard Microsoft development environment."
It's also more than a bag of peanuts, and has about the same relevance. The standard MS development environment is a compiler and a non-portable flaky foundation class. On the other hand, Qt is a high quality cross-platform GUI library. It's apples and oranges. A simple recompile and your application works on any Unix and any Windows. If you want to compare prices, compare Qt with other quality cross-platform GUI libraries. Or compare the price of VC++ with g++.
"Under its current license, I think KDE/Qt will be harmful to both free software and the commercial acceptance of free software."
I fully agree with you that a LGPL or BSD licensed Qt would be better for the developer. But the typical proprietary commercial developer can easily afford a proprietary license. A commercial developer should be making at *least* $50,000 a year. $1500 for tools on that kind of salary is perfectly reasonable.
Qt is Free Software for Free Software developers, Open Source for Open Source developers, and proprietary for proprietary developers. Although I think it would be better for them to release under the BSD license, I cannot argue that this is inequitable.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I'm having a nightmare where the Linux community spends all its time in-fighting while Microsoft keeps sinking their proprietary claws into every piece of exposed user flesh they can find. I guess I'm dreaming about what happened to Unix in the early 90s when major vendors argued over irrelevant minutia while Microsoft wrote NT. Pinch me and wake me up so I don't have to see this happen all over again!
For $1500 on Qt Professional, plus $2 to $50 for a Linux or BSD distribution, you get
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Gotta be Hal. Kyle's good, but let's face it: Hal all the way. BTW, Aquagirl is still dead. (As of 11/15/00 anyway.) Just repeat to yourself: Hal is Green Lantern, Jim Corrigan is the Spectre, and all of the JSA members are alive. Troll? Not on your life. OT? You bet.
I think you are getting the Gnome Foundations advisory board mixed up with the voting members of the Gnome Foundation. The members of the Gnome Foundation are those who are involved in the Gnome project. Anyone who is involved in the Gnome Project can be a member. In other words, the people involved in the Gnome Project decide what direction the project goes in.
----
Celebrate the finer things in life
And that means?
By the way, I have to thank the author of the underrated "Will there be a KDE draft?" post. It overwrote the mental image of David Faure in tights and a cape that I'd been struggling to rid myself of all morning.
both Gnome and KDE suck ass as a desktop environment. Any GUI that makes it easier to use the command line than it's file manager just blows. And of course Red Hat must be part of the evil.
To fail is human, to blue screen MS!
Imageine:
The KDE League/GNOME Foundation crossover, where a portal is opened between two parallel developer communities so that they may avvert the Mighty Siesmic Network!
Preorders availbale now, comic on shelves June 2001.
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
Speaking of that, anybody from SGI want to comment on why their best piece of software, their desktop environment, is still closed source? I'll do anything to get that on my Linux box!
Many users think of these desktops as mutually exclusive but actually KDE and GNOME, when installed, can expose their APIs when the other is running. (It is not about the llok and feel, folks, it is about the API's.)
With Sun announcing that GNOME will be the desktop in future versions of Solaris, we may see a uniform set of APIs for graphical Unix programming.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Does anyone know if any PDA people are involved with this?
l tech.com/qt/embedded/
Does KDE have any plans for the QT Embedded environment?
Mirror of QT Embedded is here:
http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/mirrors/ftp.trol
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Amen. And I'm glad to note, that he (or someone) has indeed corrected the spelling error. Spelling errors should be avoided at all cost, as they distract from the content. I hate other peoples spelling mistakes almost as much as my own.
Stefan.
It takes a lot of brains to enjoy satire, humor and wit-
The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
Is it anything like the Justice League? Are they all going to sit in a high-tech building in tights and masks fighting crime?
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.
- Ed the Sock
Ah hah! Having run KDE on a debian box for some time now, I didn't even think to check debians unstable tree, but I'm a dufus, since whats stable to KDE developers doesn't mean stable for debian.
Thanks to the both of you for satisfying my curiosity.
With KDE/Qt, they need to pay $1500/developer; that's more than people pay for a very complete, industry-standard Microsoft development environment.
You're forgetting the cost of the OS license, the Client Access License, the Office 97 license, the Anti-virus software license, the time wasted on crashes, and the fact that you can only develop for one platform. $1500 is all you'll pay for a true cross-platform toolkit which GTK is not.
--
Unselfish actions pay back better
It might not be a coincidence that in most democratic countries there are exactly TWO large political parties.
It is probably not a coincidence that the open source world has TWO major desktop environments.
2 is the smallest number larger than 1.
Would you like to live in a country where there is just ONE large political party?
----
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
Great comment Erat. It needed to be said, and I don't think it could have been stated more concisely.
They call me the working man. I guess that's what I am.
I swear it...doesn't MS own 1/4th of Corel??? So, they are part of this "Legion of Doom"?
Geez, the damn moderation is ridiculous, and I can believe you don't know this cuz you are all over this site...FUD? I think it's a real concern.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
CmdrTaco not being able to spell ("leage"), and KDE news being mocked, since GNOME is oh-so-much-neater....
bleh
"We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
...from /. POV of the world is anything outside the US. SuSE is way more popular in Europe than RedHat is here. And I am sorry, but VA despite being y'all's employer is completely irrelevant. VA could go away tomorrow and with the exception of SourceForge noone would be the wiser.
The KDE League means that we're back to square 1: competition and flame wars galore. I say that's a good thing --the competition part.
This was nice to see. It goes to plenty of businesses automatically...c gi?day0/203202285&ticker=
http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.
Long Live GNU/Linux!
You would have to build your compiler from assembler, or machine code if that's your cup of tea. ;-)
-----
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them"
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
If they're smart, they'll choose whatever will allow them to write the best software the quickest, whichever it may be. If a company isn't willing to invest $1000-2000 in something as crucial to developer productivity as a toolkit, either they have incredibly poor business sense or the product is expected to generate so little revenue they'd be better off GPL'ing it and trying to make money from some Eric Raymond voodoo.
As an aside, I've long been irritated by the constant assertions that the restrictions of the GPL constitute freedom. I'm happy to see that break down -- I should have realized that only the release of Qt under the GPL could cause Slashbots to change their tune to, "I don't want to use a GPL library! It's not free!
br> > Why does debian not have kde on dselect
/)!
It does (see http://packages.debian.org/unstable/x11
It's just that it's in the unstable branch since KDE has only recently been packaged up for Debian, since until recently KDE was not Free enough for Debian's policies.
So, down the line KDE will appear in Debian stable, but only after any emerging package issues are sorted.
[It's always that one final preview you skip that bites you in the arse]
-~ ~- -~ ~-
__
Arse
They never said that they wouldn't do something like this. Read the post to which you are replying. The KDE people said they wouldn't do something like the GNOME Foundation, they didn't. The KDE League is a marketing organization, it has NOTHING, repeat NOTHING to do with development. It's bad enough when people don't read the articles, but come on, read the post you are replying to atleast.
-matt
I've got the press release afront me and I see the following companies listed:
Borland, Caldera, Compaq, Corel, Fujitsu-Siemens,
Hewlett-Packard Company, IBM, KDE.com, Klarälvdalens Datakonsult, theKompany.com, Mandrakesoft, SuSE, Trolltech and TurboLinux.
Now, this organization is with companies that either GET it or ARE it. This org isn't controlling development, but promoting application.
And YES, I am a KDE partisan. However, this should not degenerate into a contest where KDE gets 48% of the vote, the Gnome gets 47.5%, and Other gets the rest, and everyone bitches about a recount.
(Besides, I am happy with KDE. I can use the file manager to surf without a) much overhead (useful on a laptop); b) releasing everything about the browser and system; c) no risk of Java; d) complete cookie control. Tee hee hee.)
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
And what interest does a commercial vendor have in supporting KDE and Troll Tech? RedHat won't see a dime of Troll Tech's revenue stream; they'd simply be investing a lot of money in marketing someone else's product, and they'd be increasing the cost for their customers to adopt their own product. Everybody who uses or supports Qt ultimately primarily contributes to the commercial interests of Troll Tech: increasing their market share and improving their commercial product.
I think KDE2 is technically quite well done. But the KDE/Qt license (GPL/QPL), while better than a pure GPL, is simply not commercially competitive when there are half a dozen of reasonable and LGPL or BSD toolkits around. Ideally, RedHat or some other open source company would buy out Troll Tech and put Qt under the LGPL or a BSD license. Under its current license, I think KDE/Qt will be harmful to both free software and the commercial acceptance of free software.
okay, someone mod this down because I'm pointing out that Microsoft owns 1/4th of Corel, which is a partner in this and a major player in ms.NET
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
And if you're running potato, stick this in /etc/apt/sources.list:
deb http://kde.tdyc.com potato kde2
Happy now? It's all packaged nice and pretty, ready for apt-get. The KDE folks haven't figured that out yet I guess....
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
wrongo. you have to buy a pro license for any commercial development, which is, as the author said, $1500+
not to mention the issues with the qt inlined header code, which many think make qt unusable as an lgpl library.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
the quality of trolls follows an exponential growth curve. quantity is a linearly decreasing function of time. i bet a math major with some statistics and cs emphasis could predict which post is most likely to be the best troll.
...when's the first annual KDE Draft? Is this going to be on ESPN? I can see it now: "Live from the illustrious Caesar's Palace Hotel in Las Vegas, it's the 2001 KDE League Draft. Each team has fifteen minutes to make its first selection. The draft order was selected from a hat. TrollTech is on the clock." [thirteen minute pause for effect, airtime filled by Mel Kiper talking about coder's skills in the 40-line dash] "TrollTech selects Matthias Ettrich, library coder from Oslo, Norway." [cheers from the crowd]
--
-- Geof F. Morris
With the the announcement on Linux Weekly News yesterday that MandrakeSoft had joined the Gnome Foundation, will they be a mediator between the two groups? One could only hope this would help the two groups collaborate more...
The rivalry between the GNOME and KDE people is getting even sillier now that a hint of corporate money has entered the equation. Sure, GNOME was originally created because people didn't like that KDE wasn't "free" enough for them, but it had looked like it was all dying down recently, and talk had even begun of more integration between the two desktops.
And now what happens? GNOME gets some corporate backing and shortly after, KDE follows with this! I can see why KDE felt that they needed to follow this move by GNOME, but at the same time the whole thing stinks of childish rivalry. Are we going to return to the days of sniping and put-downs?
Sure, more choice is generally a good thing, but the ongoing farce of GNOME vs. KDE (which is what they seem to be making it into) is a joke that makes Linux look rediculous. There is plenty of room out there for both desktops, yet they each spend as much time playing games of oneupmanship as they do promoting their own product.
At least some companies have the sense to keep their heads down and stand on the sidelines. Nothing good can come of this antagonistic situation.
Jon Erikson, IT guru
With both KDE and Gnome forming groups for industry support, it might be interesting to see how major companies side towards one or the other.
/. mentioned Redhat and VA aren't, so each distro will just back their favourite group. I would like to know which distros will still offer both of them. This competition should be good for all, with both groups trying to outdo each other in features. Just hope it doesn't lead to too much feature-itis again though.
SuSE is in the KDE group, and as
Cost: nothing. (Maybe $2 for CDs...)
Grab a Debian CD, install it on a box, and you can write commerical GTK+ apps. That's it. Complete. Compare with KDE - $1500 a developer? For a five-man team, you're at $7500!!!
Compare with Microsoft's licensing terms - same five-man team with comparitive tools (ie, just the dev-studio, since that's all the $1500 covers) comes in at around $2500.
All I'm trying to say is that for commerical apps, Qt is worse than Microsoft! And since GTK+ developement is even cheaper (ie, $0 in licensing fees), it stands to reason, from a commerical point of view, that GNOME is a more commerically viable platform to develop for than KDE.
The other fun point is that products developed for MS platforms are automatically potentially more viable than those developed for any Linux desktop - there's more of a market. By using Qt, KDE is forcing commerical developers to GNOME. What that means in the end is anyone's guess.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Yeah, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you if you actually believe that. A PR organization like the KDE League is nothing more than a steering committee with nothing but suits sitting on the board. Either that, or it's a large bag of hot gas, a complete waste of time.
Honestly, the list of members of the KDE League sounds like the who's who's of the primary KDE developer's employers. These people are looking to sell KDE, and you can bet they are going to use their leverage to get what they want from the developers. In other words the KDE League is going to be exactly like the Gnome Foundation (except for the fact that Miguel de Icaza, a bonafied hacker, sits on the Gnome Foundation board). Otherwise I can see the ad copy now:
"We don't know what are hackers are doing, but we are fairly sure it will be cool. You should buy it."
You can bet that the KDE League wasn't formed so that they could share that message with the world.
A PR Organization is nothing more that a steering committee without any hackers on it. The KDE League will make promises (like any good marketing department), and the KDE hackers will have to make good on those promises or the companies that have hired them will find someone else to do it for them.
You did notice that the list looked like a who's who of KDE developer employers, didn't you?
If you want to believe that there is a huge difference between a bunch of corporations getting together and "marketing" software, and a whole bunch of corporations getting together to "develop" software, well then, I suppose you can live in your little chunk of reality. Say hello to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny for me while you are there. I don't get to visit La-La Land very often.
Both of them are in their own world. KDE2 is SLOW, Gnome is SLOW. gmc is a slow buggy pile of shit. You can't beat bash for speed, stability, ease of use and raw power in this department. A combination of terminals, gnome panel and lightweight window manager is very stable, fast and usable.. gmc is just a dirty dog. I might be a little biased, I thoroughly hate pointy clicky drooly file management. I find a decent combination for getting work done is four or so virtual desktops, running full screen terminals. You bind ctrl-alt-h to move one screen left, ctrl-alt-l to move one screen right, never take your hands off the keyboard or even break your rhythm. Edit in vi, email in pine, cos they are powerful and lightning fast to start up and use from a shell. Mouse is evil. Ctrl-alt-blah for launching terminal, netscape or other oft-needed stuff. The gnome panel is there for mailcheck, clock, windowlist, volume, icq and launching seldom-used stuff. I like to leave my computers running and logged in unless I'm changing kernels... the gnome panel is pretty stable, sitting there for months at a time. It's crashed about four times this year, from applet bugs. Each time, it popped up a stupid clicky box then restored it's state and no harm done... so yeah, there's instabilities, but it's tolerable. I do run debian, mind you, so my version of gnome is probably a good deal more mature than, say, a typical redhat install. :)
I suppose stripped-down KDE would serve just as well, so it comes down to which one starts with the letter G. Go GNOMES!! :)
Software patents delenda est.
seriously, i think there are only something like 5-6 people on the entire planet that can parse, consider and understand what you wrote without screaming "flame" or "troll".
There are still very real legal issues with KDE/qt, and a lot of people just want to wish them away.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Actually, yes, but thanks for answering for me. This is from the ZDNet article: So when asked about the truth in this, Kurt replied: You went on to quote Kurt as saying this, and then claimed that he was telling the truth! The horror! My reply was in response to your statement that "that response seems fairly disingenuous now." How? He said they would never have an elected governing board, and they don't. The only similarity between the KDE League and the GNOME Foundation is that they both contain and acronym and then a word that describes a group of people united for some purpose. That is all. The KDE League is nothing like the GNOME Foundation. One does PR, the other is a steering commitee, huge difference. It's like saying that somebody was dishonest because he said he wasn't going to watch TV and instead made a sandwich.
My other
Both of them are in their own world. KDE2 is SLOW, Gnome is SLOW.
At least on 500mhz they are both slow. Im using KDE2 at the moment,
and compared to the standard windowmanager, its SLOW. EX: windowmaker
only takes 3 seconds to start. While gnome & kde chug away and eat up 110mb
of shared mem, windowmaker takes around 10-15. I belive this because
both Gnome, and KDE are desktop suites. They are not exactly window managers.
KDE2, and Gnome both come with a LOAD of programs with them making them a suite,
and causing them both to slow. Windowmaker, twm, CDE, all don't come with these things,
making them faster, and lighter on sys resources.
Stability? Both KDE2, and Gnome 1.2 have a LOT of stability problems. KDE1 vs Gnome
i wouln't be sure. Comparing the 2 at their current versions, well: put it this way, if you want
stability out of a X environment use somthing like WindowMaker, or olvwm. Ive had WindowMaker
running around 40 days before it crashed on a pixmap error.
ETRN x
Oh my, what an eloquent and tightly-argued response. Your wit has quite won me over and your obvious extreme intelligence simply dazzles me.
I must admit I was leaning towards a contrary view to your own, but now I can do no other than wholeheartedly agree with whatever you say, simply on the basis of this masterful rebutal.
Yes, I know about helixcode; yes, it's neat; and no, I won't run binaries that I haven't built myself.
Can you please tell me how to get gcc compiled without a pre-compiled gcc? I too won't run binaries, but I keep running into this problem where I can't compile the Linux kernel without a compiled gcc, and I can't compile gcc without a compiled gcc, and it's just a vicious cycle!
Why do I keep typing pythong?
God'damn... Can't you read what is said. The KDE League is NOT like the GNOME Foundation. The GNOME Foundation is a steering comittee that decides in which direction GNOME is going. The KDE League has NOTHING to do with KDE Development, that is clearly said in the press-release. The KDE League is for PR ONLY!!! Please do not fall into assumptions that this is the same as the GNOME Foundation... Could you please change your article?
--
\ Christian A Strømmen
Bah.. GNOME is oh-so-much-slower you mean.
.. and it's got the themes so you can stop whining about it not looking very nice any more or too 'windowsy'.
KDE2 is sweet
--
Delphis
- KDE forms league similar to Hall of Justice
- Linux does "wonder twin powers activate...form of PalmOS
- Bizarro Herbert gets his world Backwards
- WHO wants to regulate information about potential dangers of radioactive spider bites
Is it Saturday already?I really hate to reply and be so damn offtopic, but...
Look at the snippet of the headline for this story... "... it's called the KDE Leage. If they can get Green Lantern and Aquagirl to join existing members like TrollTech, Corel, HP, IBM, MandrakeSoft, and SuSE."
First off, the spelling leaves something to be desired. Secondly, (and while I respect the fact that this site has biases) if you're going to poke fun at this new organization, don't leave the world hanging on a fragment. If they can get Green Lantern and Aquagirl to join the existing members... then WHAT? they can defeat the evil underpants GNOMEs?
What I think we really need some days are SlashDot Editor Editors.
cheers,
It's true, no league of any kind would be complete without the token ring bearer, but which GL would join the KDE League? Hal Jordan may be the one true Green Lantern, but Kyle knows more about computers. Of course he works on a Mac, so that's not really useful either. Hmmm.
We're gonna concentrate on making the best possible desktop for users. Let Gnome have their corporate backing. Look what happened to CDE. We don't need no corporatations giving ---
-- Oops! I take it back. Corporations are cool!
--------------------
satire from arenn who proudly works in a large company