"All that talk of "The government/Russians/Big Bussiness has satelittes that can read a newspaper on the ground" are unfounded. "
Nobody said it was "the government/Russians/Big Business". It's the Aliens, who can do that (with a big telescope situated on Phobos, Mars' moon), and they sell the pics to the US Government.
I watched this launch. Pretty boring. We're about 25 miles north of Vandenburg, and there were some low clouds, so there wasn't much to see after the first two seconds or so.
I'm still waiting for a shuttle launch from Vandenburg. Why should dumb old Floridians have all the fun?
". Military spy satellites aren't much better than 1m resolution. Don't believe everything you see in the movies. The pics of suspected mass gravesites in Kosovo are about 1m resolution. The military has other tricks up their sleeve to make the image better."
... and the military also have tricks up their sleeves to reduce the apparent resolution of the RELEASED satellite image. . .
No sports? I'm with you on that. Sports should be an entirely disconnected activity (like little-league, boy scouts and cub scouts in grade school).
As far as "nosey parents" go. Parents MAY have the legal right to do that, but at this age, to be a good parent, to build a relationship of trust, you really ought to give your kids some space. If they don't trust you, they will tend to resent you, and if they resent you, that drives them further into this rebellion pattern - and they'll find other places to hide their stuff. Then you'll have a pissed-off teenager who knows who his enemies are, and who he can't trust, and exactly how he can get away with stuff.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
I'm a 31 year old "geek sympathizer", and from recent experience, I've got to tell everyone out there that we're playing with fire here.
We're in the middle of a full-fledged backlash, and admitting ANY kind of compassion for "these monsters" can be very dangerous. I think it's best that people remain anonymous in this, and I also think that you have to be VERY careful of what you say and who you say it to. Especially if you're a minor. I know it sucks, and I know that's not the way things ought to be in America (TM), and it certainly isn't fair, but people are VERY sensitive out there right now.
I got into an argument about this with some neighbors, and I told them this story about the kid who posted yesterday (posted his picture), about being approached by a "jock", and being verbally abused, accused of being a Trench Coat Mafioso, and liable to snap and shoot everybody, then the jock spit on him and punched him. The response I got was not sympathy for the weird kid it was: "maybe people are really afraid right now". That makes ME very afraid. Like they said in MIB. . "a person is smart, people are stupid panicky animals and you know it". Truer words were never said.
I wouldn't be suprised if Jon Katz got his email inbox subpoenaed to locate these kids and cue them up for reeducatio- er, I mean counselling.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
Obviously, you didn't go through what these other posters have gone through, otherwise, you WOULD understand. And if you don't, you never will. Sorry.
Yes, life is harsh, life sucks, kids can be cruel to one another, and everyone is at one time or another, on the receiving end of it, but when a kid is in this situation, day in and day out, constantly, with no escape, and no one to talk to about it, it's not easy to deal with, emotionally.
Identifying with what the killers were feeling is != justifying it. If it were, this would have happened many times before, at many many schools across the country.
" the high school In Crowd will always be _losers_."
Absolutley NOT true.
Though the pain you sufferred probably feels better when you THINK this, it's not true. At least in MY High School, many of the "popular kids" went on to far, far better lives than I did.
I'm working in a software company - I do Tech Support (2nd Line) because that's what I enjoy and am good at. If I were a programmer I would be making TWICE what I'm making now. Sue me, I think coding is boring. I think troubleshooting is exiting. I like solving problems. (not creating them).
AND, the Sales People at this company, make more than the programmers. They're DEFINATELY all Jocks. In fact, probably the ones who never "grew up" out of the "wolf-pack" high school mentality. Also, I'd say a LARGE proportion of our programmers were probably not high school outcasts. A lot of them are very active athletes. We have a baseball league, at lunch they play basketball and roller hockey out in the parking lot. A lot of us mountain bike.
AND, the popular press (at least the TV News Anchors) which is making such an ugly mess of this whole thing right now, were probably all popular kids as well, which is why they refuse to see the truth in this matter.
I can tell you for a FACT, that my parents did NOT ignore me, and I built bombs, and for a short time, owned a handgun under their very noses (but one time, got in trouble sneaking two beers over to a friends house?!).
People who believe that all parents can be in 100% control of their kids are kidding themselves.
I knew places in my parents' house where I could hide stuff that they never knew existed. They had no clue, and would be totally shocked to know what I was into when I was a kid (and dismayed to find out how nicely I turned out despite all the youthful hell I raised). That's why you kids should stay away from body piercing and tatoos. Keep them guessing.
On CNN, I saw a thing about how the students were making Blue and Silver ribbons for people to wear to remember the 13 victims.
13 victims.
These two boys, to me, were just another (of the thousands) of teen suicides in this nation. The only difference is that they decided to take their tormentors with them.
I think that TCM-types everywhere should wear a black ribbon, to show support for the TRUTH in this matter, and to protest what's REALLY wrong with America's schools. Not to condone the violent outcome, but to mourn the tragedy of how these two boys met their end, along with 13 of their classmates.
We do all have something in common, but we're not all the same. I was a High-School outcast. I've often referred to that experience as "4 years of hell". I'm 31 now, and I've come to grips with what I went through, and why it happened. I dealt with it back then by kidding myself that I was smarter than them, better than them. Truth be told, I was at the exact 50th percentile in the class. Okay, I topped out all the standardized tests, and all the counsellors and teachers had these heart-to-hearts with me telling me how bright I am, how smart and talented I am, but really, I think at least some of that was a thin attempt to get me exited and involved in a world I had no interest in. Academics. So bottom line, I wasn't the "best and brightest" of my school, and now, 14 years later, I don't have the comfort of seeing all the jocks and preps working daddy's car dealership. (some of them) But I eventually figured out, the problem was me. For some reason, even in the professional world, I just don't fit in. I'm just not very socially - fluent(?). I don't know what it is, but at least now, I don't carry a lot of angst over it, I just deal with it as best I can. At least here, in the professional world, the people I work with are grown-up about it, and the wolf-pack mentality that kept me excluded and ostracized from everything in High-School is no longer present. I'm not as bad off as some of you. I've read about others in the "Why Kids Kill" column, some people have had counselling, drugs, and even "extended stays" at Arkham Assylum for the Criminally Insane.
I don't know how to solve my root problem, social ineptness. I know it's a problem that feeds on itself, because the more aware of it I am, the more nervous I get around people, and the worse I am. But I do know that being online, and conversing with others online - like-minded or not, helps a lot. I don't even know if THIS problem is what causes ALL kids to be excluded and ostracized. I know there are probably other factors (economics, parental "connections", acne, physical stature, and hobbies). But I DO know one thing: If I knew then, what I know now, I would DEFINATELY done many, many things different, and perhaps, I would be in a much better position in life now. The main thing was, I couldn't see past age 18. When I was in High-School, I was so preoccupied with my misery, that I couldn't see my future at all. All I could see what I was missing out on. I think that this is a totally critical thing for kids going through this need to understand. That their situation is temporary, that the other kids are behaving the way they do because they're just kids. Most of them will grow up and stop being assholes. You can't wallow in self-pity like I did, because I ended up totally screwing up my life. And while things are going well for me now, at least financially, things could be MUCH MUCH better. (if only I had got good grades, and finished college, and not changed my major to art. ART?! What was I thinking? I don't know.)
I think about these kids and I see that at least they had a clique to be in, though some of the other TCMs say that these two were fringe members, that may be some defensive distancing. I did try sports, and I did play some sports, but I wasn't accepted by the "jocks". There were a couple of instances where I DID actually go postal, but I was unarmed, so I didn't end up in the news. Luckily for me, I had a big brother who used to tease me and beat the crap out of me, so at least I knew how to fight. Won some, lost some, luckily, never got in trouble over it. But I didn't fit in with the intellectual geeks, I didn't fit in with the stoners, I didn't even fit in with the theater kids. I was kind of a fringe member of all those groups (except the preps, that was an economic thing, pure and simple - mommy and daddy didn't buy me a BMW to drive to school). I wasn't even accepted by the D&D players. I did dabble in Paganism, I did have a gun, I did build bombs (take the Anarchist Cookbook with a grain of salt, some of it is just plain wrong), and I read Che Gueverra. I guess I'm just lucky I never decided to end it all and take some people with me. (although - I wasn't ignored in a class of 400. I was voted "Most likely to blow up the world") In the end, I didn't bear a grudge against any individual. I guess I still feel anger, but you know, life is what it is, and it's the way it is. You can try to change it, but it's not likely, and bottom line, at least I'm not some poor Rwandan kid, starving in the savanna, witness to his parents being hacked up by machettes in tribal violence. Kind of puts things in perspective.
And do I feel angry at how the press handles this shooting incident? You bet I do, but face it. These TV reporters and Politicians were all popular kids when they were in High-School. They have no idea, and can't possibly understand what we went through, and what you kids are going through now. And when they begin to understand, they HAVE to close their eyes to it. Can you imagine the guilt they must feel? (I do not feel sorry for them, but this is how I rationalize it).
So I welcome this "movement", of outcast kids on the internet. It's pretty crappy that this is turning into a witch-hunt, but I think maybe we'll all be a bit smarter from this experience, and maybe we'll all see what this can lead to, and maybe, the things that I've said can help some of you (and maybe some of those "sociologists and psychologists" out there will get a freakin' clue!). Maybe this gathering on the internet is something that can finally help this situation, something that wasn't possible before (I know I certainly had zero outlet for these thoughts and feelings when I was a kid - there was no internet back then. Not like today.) So, for the kids who are getting their internet access cut off, I say, go to the library. Stay in touch with those who are going through the same things you are. I think it's the only way y'all are going to stay sane. (and by sane, I mean SANE, not "normal" or "conformist")
And please, stay away from this Nazi crap. That's just stupid. I'm not going to bad mouth Paganism (though I don't recommend it, it didn't get me anywhere, in terms of spiritual peace), This Nazi stuff is just plain stupid. It's SO 50 years ago. . .
Well, good luck.
you know, white mid-cls males R very hated
on
Why Kids Kill
·
· Score: 1
hm. maybe the POPE should ask Irish Catholics to stop killing British Protestants. . .
Why only in "perfect" towns?
on
Why Kids Kill
·
· Score: 1
Some of the popular kids in my school are now working in construction, working daddy's business.
However, One is head of internet operations at NBC. (never had anything to do with computers). One is an assistant states attorney prosecuting Microsoft in the Antitrust trial... (glad I didn't go postal way back then - heh).
Like I said before. I don't carry a grudge, though I do still have issues. And like someone else said, if only someone had taken these kids aside and TOLD them that High School just doesn't matter. If only I knew then what I knew now, it would have saved a LOT of suffering, and you can be DAMN sure that MY kids will have some clue as to what's waiting for them after Graduation. Hell, I never figured I'd live to be 19.
NOT in NJ -- Rural rage:
on
Why Kids Kill
·
· Score: 1
California is NOT densely populated.
Only two very small regions are.
Ever been to the Mojave desert? The Sierra Nevadas? Napa? Central Coast? Not very crowded at all.
"... I can see now when all the jocks that terrorized us in Highschool are working for their dad's at the car dealership have 2 kids an ugly wife and thinning hair..."
hmmm. Is that YOUR revenge?
I can tell you. At my 10-year HS reunion, it wasn't all that satisfying seeing that.
Would I have "gone Postal" had there been that easy access to guns and bomb info when I was in HS? Lord knows there were times when I wanted to. To this day, I don't know exactly why I never did. Bond to my parents? Fear? Lack of intestinal fortitude? Lack of opportunity? Lack of a good example to follow (hey, it hadn't been done before)? Those were some dark times in my life. And though their lives are miserable now, and I carry no grudge against the jocks who gave me a hard time throughout my childhood - for this particular incident, I blame the jocks of Littletown and everywhere else in the world, their wolf-pack culture, and everything they represent.
Slashdot Mirror
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ts/story.html ?s=v/nm/19990428/ts/canada_shooting_1.ht ml
"pedal the instruments. . ."?
What are you talking about? Bicycles don't kill people! People kill people! Besides, the bicycles these kids used were already illegal!
"All that talk of "The government/Russians/Big Bussiness has satelittes that can read a newspaper on the
ground" are unfounded. "
Nobody said it was "the government/Russians/Big Business". It's the Aliens, who can do that (with a big telescope situated on Phobos, Mars' moon), and they sell the pics to the US Government.
I watched this launch. Pretty boring. We're about 25 miles north of Vandenburg, and there were some low clouds, so there wasn't much to see after the first two seconds or so.
I'm still waiting for a shuttle launch from Vandenburg. Why should dumb old Floridians have all the fun?
". Military spy satellites aren't much better than 1m resolution. Don't believe everything you see in the
movies. The pics of suspected mass gravesites in Kosovo are about 1m resolution. The military has other
tricks up their sleeve to make the image better."
... and the military also have tricks up their sleeves to reduce the apparent resolution of the RELEASED satellite image. . .
I'm a well-employed tech, Art School (NIU) dropout.
That's all find and dandy, but at the end of the day, I still wish (desperately) that I had a CS degree.
No sports? I'm with you on that. Sports should be an entirely disconnected activity (like little-league, boy scouts and cub scouts in grade school).
As far as "nosey parents" go. Parents MAY have the legal right to do that, but at this age, to be a good parent, to build a relationship of trust, you really ought to give your kids some space. If they don't trust you, they will tend to resent you, and if they resent you, that drives them further into this rebellion pattern - and they'll find other places to hide their stuff. Then you'll have a pissed-off teenager who knows who his enemies are, and who he can't trust, and exactly how he can get away with stuff.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
I'm a 31 year old "geek sympathizer", and from recent experience, I've got to tell everyone out there that we're playing with fire here.
We're in the middle of a full-fledged backlash, and admitting ANY kind of compassion for "these monsters" can be very dangerous. I think it's best that people remain anonymous in this, and I also think that you have to be VERY careful of what you say and who you say it to. Especially if you're a minor. I know it sucks, and I know that's not the way things ought to be in America (TM), and it certainly isn't fair, but people are VERY sensitive out there right now.
I got into an argument about this with some neighbors, and I told them this story about the kid who posted yesterday (posted his picture), about being approached by a "jock", and being verbally abused, accused of being a Trench Coat Mafioso, and liable to snap and shoot everybody, then the jock spit on him and punched him. The response I got was not sympathy for the weird kid it was: "maybe people are really afraid right now".
That makes ME very afraid. Like they said in MIB. . "a person is smart, people are stupid panicky animals and you know it".
Truer words were never said.
I wouldn't be suprised if Jon Katz got his email inbox subpoenaed to locate these kids and cue them up for reeducatio- er, I mean counselling.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
You are an idiot.
Obviously, you didn't go through what these other posters have gone through, otherwise, you WOULD understand. And if you don't, you never will. Sorry.
Yes, life is harsh, life sucks, kids can be cruel to one another, and everyone is at one time or another, on the receiving end of it, but when a kid is in this situation, day in and day out, constantly, with no escape, and no one to talk to about it, it's not easy to deal with, emotionally.
Identifying with what the killers were feeling is != justifying it. If it were, this would have happened many times before, at many many schools across the country.
maybe they needed to paddle YOU in spelling class.
/.
Jeez Rob, you REALLY need to incorporate an automatic spell-checker into
you are an idiot, and have probably never been locked in a school locker, or had a swirly, or a wedgie.
It's not about hating jocks. It's about BEING hated. Hating them back, is just a survival mechanism, and for a 12-16 year old, a damn common one.
. . . how the HELL did we win the cold war?
Just wait until one of us figures out how to put together an atom bomb.
". . . it fits in a suitcase, it's that small, nobody knows it's there 'till BLAMMO! eyes melt, skin explodes, EVERYBODY dead. .
-repo man.
. . . and the burn-out wore a black trench-coat.
So expect this movie to be on the banned list.
" the high school In Crowd will always be _losers_."
Absolutley NOT true.
Though the pain you sufferred probably feels better when you THINK this, it's not true. At least in MY High School, many of the "popular kids" went on to far, far better lives than I did.
I'm working in a software company - I do Tech Support (2nd Line) because that's what I enjoy and am good at. If I were a programmer I would be making TWICE what I'm making now. Sue me, I think coding is boring. I think troubleshooting is exiting. I like solving problems. (not creating them).
AND, the Sales People at this company, make more than the programmers. They're DEFINATELY all Jocks. In fact, probably the ones who never "grew up" out of the "wolf-pack" high school mentality. Also, I'd say a LARGE proportion of our programmers were probably not high school outcasts. A lot of them are very active athletes. We have a baseball league, at lunch they play basketball and roller hockey out in the parking lot. A lot of us mountain bike.
AND, the popular press (at least the TV News Anchors) which is making such an ugly mess of this whole thing right now, were probably all popular kids as well, which is why they refuse to see the truth in this matter.
I can tell you for a FACT, that my parents did NOT ignore me, and I built bombs, and for a short time, owned a handgun under their very noses (but one time, got in trouble sneaking two beers over to a friends house?!).
People who believe that all parents can be in 100% control of their kids are kidding themselves.
I knew places in my parents' house where I could hide stuff that they never knew existed. They had no clue, and would be totally shocked to know what I was into when I was a kid (and dismayed to find out how nicely I turned out despite all the youthful hell I raised).
That's why you kids should stay away from body piercing and tatoos. Keep them guessing.
. . . my ex wife sends our 10 year old son to a private school. It's not much better there either. At least he has me to talk to about this.
On CNN, I saw a thing about how the students were making Blue and Silver ribbons for people to wear to remember the 13 victims.
13 victims.
These two boys, to me, were just another (of the thousands) of teen suicides in this nation. The only difference is that they decided to take their tormentors with them.
I think that TCM-types everywhere should wear a black ribbon, to show support for the TRUTH in this matter, and to protest what's REALLY wrong with America's schools. Not to condone the violent outcome, but to mourn the tragedy of how these two boys met their end, along with 13 of their classmates.
It took me 2 years to read it in HS. I read the Bible (NIV) in only 6 months.
To all high-school outcasts:
We do all have something in common, but we're not all the same.
I was a High-School outcast. I've often referred to that experience as "4 years of hell". I'm 31 now, and I've come to grips with what I went through, and why it happened. I dealt with it back then by kidding myself that I was smarter than them, better than them. Truth be told, I was at the exact 50th percentile in the class. Okay, I topped out all the standardized tests, and all the counsellors and teachers had these heart-to-hearts with me telling me how bright I am, how smart and talented I am, but really, I think at least some of that was a thin attempt to get me exited and involved in a world I had no interest in. Academics. So bottom line, I wasn't the "best and brightest" of my school, and now, 14 years later, I don't have the comfort of seeing all the jocks and preps working daddy's car dealership. (some of them)
But I eventually figured out, the problem was me. For some reason, even in the professional world, I just don't fit in. I'm just not very socially - fluent(?). I don't know what it is, but at least now, I don't carry a lot of angst over it, I just deal with it as best I can. At least here, in the professional world, the people I work with are grown-up about it, and the wolf-pack mentality that kept me excluded and ostracized from everything in High-School is no longer present.
I'm not as bad off as some of you. I've read about others in the "Why Kids Kill" column, some people have had counselling, drugs, and even "extended stays" at Arkham Assylum for the Criminally Insane.
I don't know how to solve my root problem, social ineptness. I know it's a problem that feeds on itself, because the more aware of it I am, the more nervous I get around people, and the worse I am. But I do know that being online, and conversing with others online - like-minded or not, helps a lot. I don't even know if THIS problem is what causes ALL kids to be excluded and ostracized. I know there are probably other factors (economics, parental "connections", acne, physical stature, and hobbies). But I DO know one thing: If I knew then, what I know now, I would DEFINATELY done many, many things different, and perhaps, I would be in a much better position in life now.
The main thing was, I couldn't see past age 18. When I was in High-School, I was so preoccupied with my misery, that I couldn't see my future at all. All I could see what I was missing out on. I think that this is a totally critical thing for kids going through this need to understand. That their situation is temporary, that the other kids are behaving the way they do because they're just kids. Most of them will grow up and stop being assholes. You can't wallow in self-pity like I did, because I ended up totally screwing up my life. And while things are going well for me now, at least financially, things could be MUCH MUCH better. (if only I had got good grades, and finished college, and not changed my major to art. ART?! What was I thinking? I don't know.)
I think about these kids and I see that at least they had a clique to be in, though some of the other TCMs say that these two were fringe members, that may be some defensive distancing. I did try sports, and I did play some sports, but I wasn't accepted by the "jocks". There were a couple of instances where I DID actually go postal, but I was unarmed, so I didn't end up in the news. Luckily for me, I had a big brother who used to tease me and beat the crap out of me, so at least I knew how to fight. Won some, lost some, luckily, never got in trouble over it. But I didn't fit in with the intellectual geeks, I didn't fit in with the stoners, I didn't even fit in with the theater kids. I was kind of a fringe member of all those groups (except the preps, that was an economic thing, pure and simple - mommy and daddy didn't buy me a BMW to drive to school). I wasn't even accepted by the D&D players. I did dabble in Paganism, I did have a gun, I did build bombs (take the Anarchist Cookbook with a grain of salt, some of it is just plain wrong), and I read Che Gueverra. I guess I'm just lucky I never decided to end it all and take some people with me.
(although - I wasn't ignored in a class of 400. I was voted "Most likely to blow up the world")
In the end, I didn't bear a grudge against any individual. I guess I still feel anger, but you know, life is what it is, and it's the way it is. You can try to change it, but it's not likely, and bottom line, at least I'm not some poor Rwandan kid, starving in the savanna, witness to his parents being hacked up by machettes in tribal violence. Kind of puts things in perspective.
And do I feel angry at how the press handles this shooting incident? You bet I do, but face it. These TV reporters and Politicians were all popular kids when they were in High-School. They have no idea, and can't possibly understand what we went through, and what you kids are going through now. And when they begin to understand, they HAVE to close their eyes to it. Can you imagine the guilt they must feel? (I do not feel sorry for them, but this is how I rationalize it).
So I welcome this "movement", of outcast kids on the internet. It's pretty crappy that this is turning into a witch-hunt, but I think maybe we'll all be a bit smarter from this experience, and maybe we'll all see what this can lead to, and maybe, the things that I've said can help some of you (and maybe some of those "sociologists and psychologists" out there will get a freakin' clue!). Maybe this gathering on the internet is something that can finally help this situation, something that wasn't possible before (I know I certainly had zero outlet for these thoughts and feelings when I was a kid - there was no internet back then. Not like today.)
So, for the kids who are getting their internet access cut off, I say, go to the library. Stay in touch with those who are going through the same things you are. I think it's the only way y'all are going to stay sane. (and by sane, I mean SANE, not "normal" or "conformist")
And please, stay away from this Nazi crap. That's just stupid. I'm not going to bad mouth Paganism (though I don't recommend it, it didn't get me anywhere, in terms of spiritual peace), This Nazi stuff is just plain stupid. It's SO 50 years ago. . .
Well, good luck.
. . . they were self-professed bisexuals. . .
hm. maybe the POPE should ask Irish Catholics to stop killing British Protestants. . .
Some of the popular kids in my school are now working in construction, working daddy's business.
However,
One is head of internet operations at NBC. (never had anything to do with computers). One is an assistant states attorney prosecuting Microsoft in the Antitrust trial... (glad I didn't go postal way back then - heh).
Like I said before. I don't carry a grudge, though I do still have issues. And like someone else said, if only someone had taken these kids aside and TOLD them that High School just doesn't matter. If only I knew then what I knew now, it would have saved a LOT of suffering, and you can be DAMN sure that MY kids will have some clue as to what's waiting for them after Graduation. Hell, I never figured I'd live to be 19.
California is NOT densely populated.
Only two very small regions are.
Ever been to the Mojave desert? The Sierra Nevadas? Napa? Central Coast? Not very crowded at all.
"... I can see now when all the jocks that terrorized us in Highschool are working for
their dad's at the car dealership have 2 kids an ugly wife and thinning hair..."
hmmm. Is that YOUR revenge?
I can tell you. At my 10-year HS reunion, it wasn't all that satisfying seeing that.
Would I have "gone Postal" had there been that easy access to guns and bomb info when I was in HS? Lord knows there were times when I wanted to. To this day, I don't know exactly why I never did.
Bond to my parents? Fear? Lack of intestinal fortitude?
Lack of opportunity?
Lack of a good example to follow (hey, it hadn't been done before)?
Those were some dark times in my life.
And though their lives are miserable now, and I carry no grudge against the jocks who gave me a hard time throughout my childhood - for this particular incident, I blame the jocks of Littletown and everywhere else in the world, their wolf-pack culture, and everything they represent.