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Catching a breath...
Heads Up. This is in the Be Careful What You Wish For Dept: A bunch of reporters and producers are trawling the site looking for geek kids to put on TV and radio, and to interview for newspaper stories. Journalism has suddenly discovered that this story is a little more complicated than violent video games and geek monsters.
Be careful, especially those of you who are younger. Some of these reporters get it, some don't. Some will worry about your best interests, and others won't. I've declined to give any e-mail addresses of kids relaying the realities of life in High School to reporters, since in some cases, radio and TV exposure would make their lives worse, not better.
It's an individual choice, but think about it. If you need guidance, please feel free to e-mail me, as I worked in newspapers and for a TV network before becoming a cyber-gasbag and writer.Update: 04/28 02:03 by H : Doug has also put up ListenToUs. This is a gathering place for us to communicate with each on social issues, especially in light of Littleton.
I find it odd that journals, those who are trained to report objectively, could use a course or two in critical thinking.
trained to report objectively, but paid to sell copy...
I was glad to hear about the 'Listen to Us' site coming online, and hope it works out. Obviously this issue has struck a major chord, and it's good that /. has provided a forum for discussion while the mainstream media have done their usual crass sensationalizing. However, ./ is first and foremost a tech news site, and I'd like to point out that (a) not all techies are, or were, abused high schoolers, and (b) many of the most abused kids out there are not, and never will be, techies or 'geeks' in our sense of the word.
I want to interview the right people. And I want to do it respectfully and with an open mind. I work for National Public Radio. And I want to kids who consider themselves nerds, geeks, goths, etc. have been going through since the Colorado shootings. Please contact me if you have any suggestions.
Let the geeks be anonymous or something. Everywhere I look I see more crap about how music and video games caused this.. Or even worse, this profiling crap. The truth needs to be told. This isn't merely about a few wackos, its about the disturbing social-caste system of highschools in general.
I think that this is a good example of celeberities being so quick to reap the financial rewards of there fame that they sacrifice thier integrity (if they have any left)
I am amazed at the level of Psuedo-compassionate tears that are spilled when a tragedy happens. but as a society we are afraid to interviene when a problem is percieved. We were all "outraged" when Rodney King was beaten, now he's a guest on talk shows, not as a representative of race relations, but as a celebrity.
When we look to blame for this tragedy we should look in the mirror. We judge VBprogrammers as being inferior. we walk past homeless on the street without a blink of an eye, but wont hesitate to shell out $$$$ for Upgrades.
Who's to say that this could have been avoided if one of the people who participated in abusing these kids showed some compassion.
Their actions were irrational,but It's not like these kids were secretive about their plans, they posted it on a freaking website the bomb components were in plain view in their rooms. how oblivious were these parents. Based on the lack of interaction between parent and child i find the (press release)apoligies of the parents an insincere hypocrasy.
The country will morn for a month, plant flowers next year... cry "why" when it happens again.
Yes....
Its my fault I am getting to good marks and others cant stand it.
Its my fault teachers dont like me because I ask them things they dont know cause they forgot.. (I asked for fractals and matricies my math teachers.. Ended up going to Physics teacher to get real answers)
its my fault my parents dont care and tell me to watch tv.
Its my fault, I see.....
// sarcasm implementation = 100%
There's a big difference between "feeling lonely alienated and picked on" and being spit on every day in school.
Totally agree, stores that have become an american stable for a large part of our
society, that endorsed by entertainment icons, and still continue to pedal the
instruments which destroy us as a whole, are hyporcrital of the very thing they
promote.
Hate to burst your bubble, but around here, guns are necessary. We have a slight problem with too many deer. In normal years they actually kill more people in Texas than any other animal. That is more than dogs, poisonous snakes, mountain lions and alligators.
When they overpopulate, it gets worse. They eat all the foliage less than 5 feet off the ground. More of them get hit by cars. They move into urban areas. They spread diseases.
I don't hunt, personally, but you'll get no argument from me about what hunters do not being necessary.
Humans have fucked up the ecology so much that the only way to keep the deer from overpopulating and causing more harm is to hunt them. For that you need guns. Bow and arrow is not effective enough (and tracking a bleeding animal 100 yards to find where it collapsed is not my idea of humane - rifles tend to work more quickly).
Trapping is too expensive an option. Hunting lets people PAY to take care of the problem. It's the only source of revenue in a lot of small towns.
Not to mention that guns are fun to shoot (though I prefer inanimate objects for targets). Everybody I knew in High School, or someone in their family, owned a gun. Every home had at least one. They were usually kept locked in a gun cabinet, or something similar.
Around here it's just part of the culture. People hunt. People shoot. Kids grow up knowing how to use guns, and knowing that you just don't point them at people.
Shes a LAN admin- met her at work on the hardware repair line... sigh a match made in heaven...
/. and read the articles and said "Damn...", so I guess thats something.
Seriously though, she was a wallflower in hs and was mostly ignored. Its possible she didn't perceive what abuse was going on around her, but this issue sure didn't seem to resonate with her like it did me.
She hasn't denied the problem, but she appears not to appreciate it as acutely as I do. She did get on
I guess you have to be on the receiving end of this stuff to really be aware of the problem. Lower level or less frequent abuse is more easily forgotten, but I'll always recall how I dreaded auto shop... and If I ever have a kid who gets pushed around like I was, I promise you the teachers/admins who allow it to happen will get to explain just how that is so in front of judge, so help me.
Gregm
Hunting rifles, bolt action, semi automatic ( 6 round magazines maximum ).
... to hunt deer, moose, bear, coyote, duck, turkey, ...
...
/dev/null.
Shotguns double barrel, pump ( with 6 rounds max ).
Do you need a handgun to control the deer population? Do you need an AK47, AR15, Mini 14,
The answer is no. ( The problem in the US is that with out stonger gun control you can't prevent people from buying pump shutgun magazine extenders, 30 round magazines for their hunting rifles,
And with so many different state gun control laws, which allow for inter-state transport of weapons, you won't have any gun control, you need fedral gun control ( and an amendmant to the 2nd amendmant), so no one can hide behind the constitution any longer. The other problem with the US is that the cat is out of the bag, with 210million guns floating around. I'm suprised Canada hasn't been swamped already.
Gun toating NRA zealots please send your flames to
Ultimately in a sane and peacfull society, Handguns, Assult rifles ( military oriented ), and automatic weapons are not needed, by the citezanry. Pardon my naivate.
Sporting, hunting, competition shooting ( which could include handguns, but strictly licensed ) should be OK.
Gun control is only one aspect of a larger systemic problem, which will keep the socioligists, acedemics, law makers, media busy until they figure it out or we go the way of Rome.
You obviously didn't go to school with some of the sociopaths that went to mine. Were you ever in terror of seeing someone walking down the hallway towards you- KNOWING what they will do, and KNOWING you can't do anything because they weight at least 75 pounds more than you, are a foot taller- and know how to fight? This thing is, some of these guys just don't give a shit- you're smaller, won't fight back, have no friends- so you're toast..
They are already on the principal's s&#t list, but one more suspension is irrelevant to them.
I'm glad you got out OK, but please remember this issue more complex than just your own experience.
Gregm
Guns don't kill people, people kill people! I wish that everyone would get off the gun kick and put the blame where it lies: on the psychos that buy them and use them to kill people.
Wake up, people.
Depending on the parents, homeschooling could be a way to go. There used to be problems with being socially inept as a result (just not being around that many people does stunt you), but nowadays it's getting more common.
There are associations that now have more than the religious zealots. My little brother is homeschooled, basically he is emotionally 2/3rds his age, but he is mentally at grade level and our school system can't handle that. It's great for the mentally retarded, but everyone else just gets lumped in. Nobody in my family could stomach the thought of him being in a class with people who are in the lower class because of constant suspensions, if you follow. Actually, there are some other kids like him homeschooled, but a lot of the people being homeschooled are mad scholars. Insane stuff. They're not any smarter than us at public schools, but public schools sap at us so we don't achieve (a point iterated so many times here).
No point crying about it, im sure its no great discovery, that the general majority of journalists are more interested in the accolades of their piers, then anything else, after all reality bites, and can be a little boring at times, dont forget the truth usually doesnt have movie glitz.
Imagine the uproar if someone actually said, look there is a possability that the jocks and teachers actually drove them crazy, constantly pushing them around, its called "emotional abuse", we send adults to jail for stuff like that, and its the hardest thing to recover from. As one of the victims friends said, "the jocks hated them first". Who knows what really drove them to do such an unthinkable crime, but it needs to be brought out. These two killers must in no circumstances become idols to some of the "alternative crowd".
Be wary about crying journalists, bearing gifts of understanding, if they feel theres a scoop in there somewhere, its them first.
The boats sinking!
Journalists and children first! (in that order).
Listen, if you think about it, not ONE person has to go public and risk being ostracised, they can gather the information and report on it without a so called, "spokes person". They can go on Larry king, and talk about what they found out, who they spoke to, tell the stories, etc etc... but i dont think they would do that, because then they become the "spokes person", and THEY themselves risk being cast out, after all the camera would be on them. Lets see if any one of them really has the balls to do it alone.
I STRONGLY AGREE WITH KATZ, THINK TWICE. If you do decide to talk to them, make sure theyre sitting next to you(not opposite as most interviews are given), gives the impression of solidarity.
Speaking of outlets for gnerds in the olden days, mine was
going on numerous car rallyes (note the spelling) in Southern
Calif. I even wrote a few. And although you'd expect the
participants to be mostly guys, there were quite a few females
who were into it as well.
Any Slashdotters remember Sepulveda Dam?
My wife sympathized with the killers to a much stronger extent than I did, she was very unpopular in her high school, but not a geek.
I'd show her slashdot, but she's not into the web.
GeorgeH, trying not to be an AC
There IS affordable therapy if you are near a major city. There are organizations like The Jewish Board of Family and Children's services (no, you don't have to be jewish) that will only charge what u cann afford.
The term "unthinkable" is used purely to accent the fact that this was a tragedy.
A tragedy for the killers, and for those killed.
anyone of half decent intelligence would have realised that. The fact you picked up on that one expression and choose to elaborate on it is quite stupid, while ignoring what the more important issue of the posting is.
I empathize with a lot of the stories I've read here over the past few days. Recently I discovered that social phobia, an unusually strong fear of embarrassment, was the cause of most of my social problems. I suspect that many other posters/readers share the same affliction. Here is one place you can read about it.
I, like most people who read this... truly don't know what to say. I don't know where to begin. I've experienced some of what you've gone through, in fact there are some strange parallels in our lives. I'm not quite 25, I too was overweight & unpopular in high school (and still am, though not as bad), dropped out of university, had a sex fiend for a first girlfriend and worked for a telco. I am happy with my life now though... maybe you need professional help, or maybe you'll be able to resolve your own problems knowing that other people in this world can at least relate and do care. I'd stay away from Prozac... try St. John's Wort instead. And I'd recommend reading some of Peter McWilliams' books. They're all online at http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/
They've helped me deal with a lot of issues and expanded my ideas in a lot of ways. Remember, everything in life is a choice... we don't choose what we look like, but we choose how what we look like affects us.
In high school, I had essentially no friends because I was the second-shortest guy in my class as well as (by far) the highest academic acheiver. (Admittedly, I was also short on social skills, but I was definitely a nice guy).
As soon as I got to college, everything changed. Being really smart was viewed as really cool. I'm now a surgeon on the faculty of a top medical school (you may wonder why the hell I'm reading Slashdot, but, hey, I'm a geek at heart) with a family and a great life.
What was really amazing was my tenth high school reunion. I was astonished how virtually everyone had become really interested in me and what I was doing. The former football captains who were working in dead-end jobs had become the boring people that everyone ignored.
I never got hassled once when I went to college (though some did- not as badly though). By that time I had gotten a bit bigger which might have helped.
The worst teacher I knew of told the guy who regularly beat me to "leave him alone", after I got sent to the hospital after a nasty beating to the kidneys. Then the teacher told me, "I better not get called as a witness". A real nice thing for a 9th grader to get told.
So if there are any school administrators or teachers reading this, I suggest you look to your conciences- please try to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
Gregm
who knew that Jon Katz was a rapper in disguise? Sounds a LOT like a certain DMX song if you ask me =)
I was more replying to the mass of posts about people's own experiences.
Actually, I don't necessarily believe this is a group dynamics problem. I believe that putting the responsibility on the actions of an entire group allows both those associated with the victims and the school to act in a situation where they would otherwise feel helpless (you can't do anything to the gunmen, they're dead).
I also think we are at an interesting juncture; at what point do the actions of the members of a group no longer describe the group? Example: At what point does the actions of a member of the NRA no longer reflect on the membership of the NRA as a whole? The answer might seem obvious (actions that have nothing to do with the purpose of the group), but the answer complicates when the group is created with exclusion rather than inclusion (other people [usually] label others as nerds/geeks/etc. whether it is wanted, deserved, or appreciated, while you pay to join the NRA).
yup - me too - I've been walking around in a rather troubled daze the past couple of days - not because of the shootings - but from reading the /. postings - they've brought back pain that I thought was gone years and years ago - I've been having flashbacks (for lack of a better word) to being beaten in highschool 20 years ago. I think I now understand (in a small way) how post-traumatic stress disorders work. I'm not claiming I have it - just that I can see all this dread bubbling up out from nowhere and I can't think of a better label.
I'm sure with time it will go away again - but no one should have to live through the sort of crap I had to as a kid. School should be a safe place that kids want to go to - not somewhere that they dread. And it's society's responsibility to make it that way - and as society's representives it's the school administration and the school board who are responsible.
Having said all this I have to point out that there's far worse in the world, I volunteer in an inner-city high-school - it's a war zone that makes anything that an affluent, white-bread suburban school can dish out look easy - you think it was hard for us - there's a whol generation of kids growing up in schools with armed cops patrolling the hallways, bars on the windows, and no ammenities - nothing - it's a wastelend. You think having jocks and geeks at school was tough - these kids have the crips and bloods. People get all upset when 2 white kids come in a blow away 13 others - hey across town 5 times that many kids get blown away on the street every year and there's no national outcry - maybe because they're black - I don't know.
I'm rambling - but to tie this stuff back together I'm currently going through this deep crap due to what I went through in school - there's a whole other generation of kids in our society going though much much worse crap who need our attention
What you are droning on about are pistols and rifles not Tommy Guns nor real machine guns. They all serve the same general purpose: get single well place rounds into a target.
An M-16 just looks more impressive than a deer rifle. Both sets of rounds will do about the same amount of damage and travel/ricochet about as far.
'Gun nuts' may infact be 'nuts'. However, they at least have a passing familiarity with the devices under discussion and don't merely fall prey to media hype.
Bang bang bang.
The horse is dead!!!
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUESDAY, APRIL 27, 1999 22:59:08 ET XXXXX
.5/259,000," declared MSNBC in a press release.
MEDIA MADNESS: IN PRESS RELEASES, NBC AND CNN CELEBRATE AUDIENCE SURGE DURING MASSACRE!
Late on Tuesday NBC spokeswoman Barbara Levin broke out the digital champagne and poured a press release on the wires celebrating dramatic audience increases for NBC NEWS at the height of last week's school slaughter.
"As the nation focused on the school shooting tragedy in Littleton, Colorado... NIGHTLY NEWS posted double digit viewer growth in both total viewers and homes," bragged Levin in a press release she issued on AP NEWS EXPRESS.
MSNBC followed the example and issued its own shocking press release claiming viewership records had been set during the bloodbath.
"MSNBC's total day households grew an impressive 88% to a
"MSNBC's broadcast of the NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS rocketed 105%" during the slaughter.
The press release continued: "MSNBC shattered its previous peak quarter-hour record, scoring a 4.2/2,018,000 households during John Gibson's interview with a Columbine High School student."
Not to be out done, Atlanta was also busy celebrating its increased viewership with a press release that claimed dramatic gains.
"CNN's key demo more than doubles," noted CNN in a release.
Ted Turner's media relations office announced: "On April 20, 1999, the network's highest-rated day of the year to date, CNN/U.S. posted total-day increases of 425 percent in rating and 409 percent in delivery, averaging a 2.1 rating and delivering 1.6 million homes. The network's delivery among adults 25-54 also increased by 731 percent..."
...if only the shooting would never end.
Um when I was taking organic chemistry back in 1994, we had a bomb threat phoned in before every
test...before all the current histeria. Yes,
Virginia, the world is this f*cked up.
Let's crash everyone's browser and flood slashdot with meaningless overthreaded comments!
http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view .cgi?/news/1999/04/28/alberta990428
A kid in a dark blue trenchcoat shoots two with a .22.
i ew.cgi?/news/1999/04/28/alberta990428
This is shocking to me because it's so close to home (Calgary).
http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/v
not ONE, not ONE case of a school instituting an zero tolerance for bullying
I agree completely, but there may be some hope. I didn't see it, but my mom (who understands and understood geekdom, thank goodness, or I might have turned out like those two) saw one TV report that interviewed a school official somewhere who said that "If we see someone taunt someone else, we immediately take them in and explain to them that that kind of behavior is NOT tolerated around here, and the next time they'll be suspended" or words to that effect.
Unfortunately, since that's so fucking rare, I think it serves to prove your point.
>When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream
>and shout.
Yeah, you make a better target that way.
The founding fathers were thinking of muskets for personal protection? and sport.
... assult rifles, semi-auto shotguns the list of killing tools continue.
I'm all for letting every adult carry a musket, but can't really condone: Glocks, Barretas,
An aquaintance was asked to remove the trenchcoat he was wearing on campus at the university i attend. i'm not sure who asked him, but it was apparently someone in an authoratative position (not a cop, but rather admin).
this is getting rediculous. it's an article of clothing. a person isn't going to carry a gun because they wear a trenchcoat. they will carry one if they are that type of person.
it's getting silly.
>>One of which is that the Europeans and Canadians are jelous of the freedom and prosperity that we have in the USA.
From the tone and mangled spelling of this sentence, I seriously doubt that you actually *know* any Europeans, or even Canadians for that matter.
If anything, many Europeans consider Americans to be violent, oversexed uneducated bullies manipulated by big business and mass media. And Canadians, well, they know us too well to feel sorry for us.
I would *gladly* trade in some of this so called 'prosperity and freedom' we have in so much abundance (and your guns, by the way) for the same measure of educational funding, real social equality, a social safety net, and freedom from violence as many Europeans enjoy.
Keeping your guns won't solve the problems we face as a nation. Putting more guns in our hands, unfortunately, won't solve anything either.
Americans have been shown to be more religious than Europeans or many Asian societies. You therefore can't lay the blame on lack of respect for learning on lack of religion. I despise a lot of what goes on in our country, but I don't want the church, or your idea of what god is, to influence my life.
One can, and should, separate morality from religion.
Every day I'd beat the crap out of a fucking computer nerd. Those guys were the worst. I loved hearing them beg for mercy, I loved crushing their glasses, I loved dumping garbage in their lockers.
High School was the best time of my life. I wish everything was like High School, there are so many nerds who need a good beating.
Check out CBC Newsworld, Canoe and other sites for info. Heck, it's even on BBC World Service.
Listen, you obviously are not representative of the majority of Americans (at least I hope you aren't)...
Do you think we Canadians and Europeans are here simply to talk down to you and cut the U.S. down a few notches? Of course not! We simply want to point out that American political policies are far different from what the rest of the world has, and that doesn't necessarily mean they're better.
It sounds to me that you have never even set foot outside your country, so how can you possibly claim that we are "jealous" of the so-called freedoms you speak of?
Are we jealous of your rate of crime? Of your lack of health care? Of your lack of social programs? Of your huge gap between rich and poor? Of your materialistic, commericialized culture? Of your lack of any gun control whatsoever? Of your exorbitant military spending?
Don't fool yourself into believing your propaganda that you live in the most free and democratic state in the world.. that simply isn't true. What kind of democracy has only 2 major political parties, with no realistic voice for the rest?
I mean, we aren't perfect either, but at least we have some of the fundamentals in place and we are actively working to improve them.
I couldn't believe my eyes the other day when Clinton proposed that gun sales be restriced to ONE PER MONTH! One per month?!?!? That's a *restriction*?!? Why would anyone need MORE guns, let alone one??
Obviously, banning guns tomorrow won't solve your problem, but just because something isn't 100% solveable doesn't mean you shouldn't even begin in the first place! Sounds like common sense to me...
We all live on the same planet here and we have to work together to ensure a sustainable future... it's time you began to think about the bigger picture rather than simply about the good ol' U.S. of A.
People are absolutely NOT the problem.
Technology is NOT neutral.
Speaking as an engineering student (a future creator of technology), technology is designed and created for specific purposes, with specific intents, for use within a specific culture.
Sure, you can use a gun to hammer nails, to knead dough, to unclog pipes... but realistically, for each of those uses a gun is not the optimal tool. Therefore a gun will ultimately be used for its optimal purpose: to kill.
So when you permit widespread ownership of such weapons, no matter how responsible the owner, sooner or later you will have deaths--intentionally or unintentionally. Whether you like it or not.
Guns can't be blamed for all of society's ills, but they sure are a catalyst for them and they only add to our suffering...
Speaking as someone who worked in a school, they are just now paying attention to the threats... Normally the schools ignore the threats............
Who gives the most to the UN?
... it owes over $2 billion dollars in dues and your paranoid, right-wing extremist congress is preventing your president from doing the right thing and paying it.
Obviously not the U.S.
Before making such claims as these, it's best your research them a bit beforehand...
"If its purpose is evil"
An inanimate object has no inherent PURPOSE.
Thumbtacks may be used for evil. You might as well ban thumbtacks.
--MolochHorridus
Add a few comments for posterity...
Hold on. Treasure the friends you have now. Survive. And get your ass out of high school and into university as fast as possible. Things are so much better once you're away from school and home, in an environment you can thrive and grow in.
I'm a 24 year old ex-high school geek who got through high school practicaly as a soul-less automaton. I hit university and learned more about life, happiness and friendship in my first 4 months than I could possibly have in 5 years of hish school. I now live happily with my wife (a former "trenchcoat mafia candidate") and our baby daughter.
"Have you ever buried your face in your hands
Cause no one around you understands
Or has the slightest idea what it is that makes you be"
-- The Offspring "Have You Ever"
But if we banned thumbtacks, what would we hold our Star Wars posters on the wall with?
This is for the young'uns who have to deal with school admins who don't understand that a predilection for games and black clothes doesn't mean y'all will mow down the local goons in a hail of lead. FYI, Mark Twain said "God made an idiot for practice, then he made a school board." Things haven't changed much in the hundred years after he came out with that, as mindless panic seems to be the blue plate special these days.
Like others already commented on the board, while school sucked dead bunnies through a flavour straw, once you survive it your mental state does get better with time. BTDT, read the book, saw the movie, got the drink cup, the t-shirt, and the incredibly painful tattoo. Now I'm in Silicon Valley being paid stupid money to work on fun stuff I'd do for free. Oscar Wilde, a guy who knew a thing or two about being on the outside, said "Living well is the best revenge".
As for those who feel like talking with journalists, remember these are the silly buggers who think KMFDM is a Nazi Goth band, for Chrissakes. Here's a secret from people who deal with reporters on a regular basis: if you appear eager for their company, they will treat you with amused condescension if not contempt, but if they understand talking to the press is not on your Top Ten list of fun things to do, they're all over your feet. If you're concerned about a possible Killer Nerd slant to the story, ask for final approval of what will be aired. Get it in writing if at all possible, on tape if not. Matter of fact, taping the interview in parallel with the reporter and keeping your copy in a safe place will keep them honest, on top of serving as a useful backstop in case some fussy admin bends a neuron about some remarks taken out of context. Now, I'm not saying you can't trust everyone you talk with, but with Jerry Springer wanna-bes crawling out of the woodwork like so many mutant cockroaches, a certain amount of preparation will go a far piece to ensuring your peace of mind.
You can take away the guns
But the hate, anger, and evil will ALWAYS be there.
Can't you people see this? Get rid of the evil, the hate, the anger, and then decide if we need guns or not.
This is like writing a buggy program and blaming the compiler, when its the programmer's fault.
You can take away the guns
But the evil, hatred, and anger remains. This is the stuff that fuels the trigger, fuels the thrust of the knife, and fuels us to do irrational things.
If somebody writes a buggy program, would you blame the compiler (The gun), or the programmer (the murderer)?
Its a lot easier to lay down blame, then it is to do something about it
I hope you people take this into consideration, rather then flame me, and tell me how stupid (you) think i am.
Thanks
I live in the UK, and I what you are talking about is totally alien to me!
I wish you would be be able to see things in a different light too, over there... but in the meantime I am relieved that kind of society hasnt hit us yet.
Let's not forget that our founding fathers gave us the RIGHT to bear arms. Yes. they were thinking of personal survival, the right to hunt, and the right to have sport.
;)
Partly right. Sport has nothing to do with it at all. Laws prohibiting hunting would not violate the 2nd Amendment. It is a right to have the last say in whether tyranny is going to destroy you or not (which I think you were saying here.) Whether that tyranny is in the form of the attack of a criminal, or a government gone bad. It's entirely about protecting The People (as the Constitution defines the term...not a collective, but each individual.) It is a right to keep and bare arms, from knives to firearms.
For those who don't think governments simply can't be bad, bear in mind the single largest collection of mass murderers in the last 100 years (let alone all of history) have been the elite few who have run governments. This being above and beyond and unrelated to those who have died in warfare. Governments have slaughtered MILLIONS this last century.
Our own US history is full of stories of the slaughter of the natives of this land. It wasn't war, it was extermination by the few, who played God with their power - ordering others to perform their nasty deeds. Governments are not a good thing by nature. They must be watched and reminded where their place is, even if force must be used to do so. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, have said it better. Look them up, they're in a few books.
I would suggest to anyone who is interested in understanding just why the 2nd Amendment exists as an enumerated right, read the Federalist Papers. It's well over 11+mb in plain ASCII, so you're looking at a long read, but it gives a very insightful look into their mindset during the framing of the Constitution- where fear of established government was the key factor in everything they forged.
The 2nd Amendment is not about sport and in spite of what Clinton and his ilk might say, never has been.
(Geraden, the following is not aimed at you... And the above was only to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding of the intent of the 2nd Amendment. No hard feelings? Please!)
As a related note to other posts on this whole mess: I've seen many posts about the "availability of guns" being part of the problem. Is it? I posted once in another thread on this topic, just how much easier it would be for a person to kill a huge number of people with common household products - like bleach and ammonia. This is the quickest way to produce mustard gas that I know of. It nearly killed a friend of mine, who didn't know any better and cleaned out his cat's litter box (full of ammonia from cat urine) with bleach. He almost fainted and took over three hours to "get at grip" again after the
first encounter. Put into perspective how little ammonia must have been in that dirty litter box, and you get an idea how much damage someone could do with a gallon or two each of these common, household chemicals.
Mix gasoline with liquid laundry detergent or styrofoam peanuts and you get home-made napalm. Gasoline, in a container which provides compression, makes a wonderful bomb. Kerosine, gasoline or any other common fuel, placed into a glass bottle stuffed with a flamable "cork" produces a weapon most of us probably know the name of. Add that laundry detergent again...
Weapons are not the problem. Intent is. You cannot prevent actions by outlawing the action, you only keep the unmotivated at bay by fear of retaliation. What the rational cannot understand is why that fear of retaliation does not dissuade the irrational.
The key word here is "irrational." This is the crux: you are not dealing with rational minds on these issues. No matter what rule you put into place, they will ignore it as they ignore the other rational rules of life we have set. I think most reactions I've seen demonizing inanimate objects, have been partly due to many people's lack of grasping this dynamic. Making a rule will not prevent anything.
Irrational people do not make rational decisions. (Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.
Murder is illegal. Yet, it happens everyday. If laws prevented crime, we would be the happiest society on Earth. We have the most laws, more than any other nation. Sometimes I wonder if we don't have more laws in the US than all the rest of the world combined. After all, we have almost 80% of the world's lawyers.
The simple fact is that laws don't prevent crime. Personal morality does. This training, for many reasons, is lacking today. That is the true problem we face. Morality is thrown aside in order to "feel good" about ourselves, rather than to proclaim our self worth by our actions and intent.
If we can find as individual a method of installing a sense of true, personal responsibility in our children - then we can truly reap the benefits of our actions. We will see our children become men and women of stature. It's up to us, the parents. Whether we are the biological or the protective guardians of their lives - our actions count! What we tell them matters! How we train them to deal with life's borishness and cruel humilities is as important as training them to deal with the facts of life and death. We have to take responsibility for providing the guidance which society as a whole, religion and goverment can never provide. It has to be on a personal level.
It is not the tool, it is the intent. We must teach our children what is and is not an appropriate intent.
That will solve most, but never all, of it.
- Xiombarg (who STILL can't remember his bloody password! - And needs to take the time to figure out how to correct that.)
Tell that to the woman who just took a bullet in the head over there. The TV personality that everyone loved so much. Oh yeah.. you can't.. she's dead. You're such a civilized bunch though. I guess that's a civilized way to die.
Those "self-loathing Americans" your refer to are the only ones who understand what's wrong with your country and they'll ultimately be the ones who will actively work to fix it.
Like it or not, you ARE a citizen of the planet earth. It is your right to remain ignorant and to cut off all ties to the rest of the world, but you are only restricting yourself in the process.
It is people like you who hold the rest of us back with your paranoia and antiquated views. We are on the verge of a new millennium and you're babbling about evil socialists and how your guns will be taken away. Best you go back into your nuclear bomb shelter and worry about the black helicopters flying overhead... the rest of us are trying to live in the present.
I think the point many people are/should be emphasizing is, whether its the media blaming the geeks, or the geeks blaming the jocks/schools/etc., everybody is blaming GROUPS.
It's not groups, it's individuals.
Two disturbed INDIVIDUALS committed a horrible crime in Littleton. INDIVIDUALS made our lives a living hell in school. INDIVIDUALS ran the schools that denied us. There are good administrators, there are good jocks, there are good geeks. Unfortunately, one bad apple ruins the bunch: a bad administrator can have a ripple effect.
The reason the media pundits and others are trying to blame geeks is the need to generalize to make future predictions (duh). But anyone with a basic understanding of statistics (or has read 1984, for that matter) understands the danger of that line of thought. The line that we must toe as a society is balancing the present rights of a society versus its future good. This riddle manifests itself in so many ways, and gets many strong responses from all directions.
Where do I stand? I think it's important to err on the side of more freedom. The other side is a slippery slope, indeed.
>One of which is that the Europeans and Canadians >are jelous of the freedom and prosperity that we >have in the USA.
Umm, what freedoms? Let's look at just one,
one that people think we have....speech.
If you say the wrong thing you
get fired/suspended/counselled. About the only
freedom of speech you got is to criticize our
laughable govt.
Ever try to organize a protest/rally or something
on a common? The runaround is nuts, from getting
permits to hiring cops its ludicrous.
When's the last time you saw anything on the news
about labor rights? Companies pay our media instiutions BIG bucks (mainly through advertising)
to make sure corporate criticism stays off the news.
Ever try to get a letter published in your local
newspaper about that raw deal you got at the
car dealership? I guarantee they won't publish it
because they make big bucks in car ads.
The people are not in control of free speech.
What PROSPERITY!??! LOL! Is commuting an hour each way to work supposed to be "the good life".
Paying $5000 a year to do it too!?
Buying "stuff"? Is that where its at?
Because that's what America is all about!
Alot of people spend ALOT of time Driving,
Working (more like "temping" nowadays), and Shopping.
We have a larger percentage of our country in personal debt then EVER before. Are these people
"prosperous"?
We have more of our wealth concentrated in fewer
hands then ever before.
We are one of the fattest countries.
Looks to me like the prosperity is only on TV.
About the only prosperity I see lately is everyone
is spawning like mad. Lotta kids being born....
>Now we have the most powerful nation on the >planet.
You mean we can kill the whole planet? Is this something to be envied?
Our standard of living is lower then many countries (Japan, Sweden). Got news for you, the US isn't number one. Our economy is precariously balanced on polluting, unsustainable automotive industries (steel, cars, roads... the biggest company in the US? GM).
The buying power of the dollar has consistently dropped since the mid 1980s.
Mark my words, in the future, it won't be countries that call the shots. It will be corporations. There are multinational corporations out there bigger and richer then many countries (Shell for example).
Somewhere along the line I missed the incredible swelling of public outrage and support for the Gulf War. There was virtually no public groundswell as a precursor to the war.
Of sure, after it started people got all patriotic. But seriously, the Gulf war had little to do with American People (obviously not including the people who WENT there blah blah). It was clearly about energy security for our economic future.
>Self loathing among Americans is once again on >the rise. There are some in our midst who feel >guilt at the great advances we've made.
Like what, cell phones? Color TV? Iconization of brand names so severe people kill each other for Nikes? Diet Coke? DDT? More cars then drivers?
Pollution so bad we smoke a pack a day just breathing? Beaches so dead you don't dare swim let alone fish or walk on the sand for fear of a needle.
I think alot of self loathing is justified. Americans are greedy, selfish people willing to
trash anything for a buck.
I can only think of one great advance in the last half of the century, the development of the computer (mostly done in US i think) and software (a worldwide effort i think).
I am, however, ashamed of the third world exploitation and pollution used to produce computers. (Let's just say chip fabrication ain't exactly friendly to mother nature).
> In order to purge themselves of that guilt they
>concentrate on the negative aspects of our >country. We've got x nmber of homeless...We had y >number of murders last year...Only z of us could >afford health insurance last year.
This would seem to reenforce guilt. Purging it would seem to need the opposite argument, ie. "look on the bright side". Also, those dismal numbers are usually percentages, used to compare the US to other countries, and in the comparison
we fare poorly.
>People all over the world bash the US, but >they're more than happy to take our aid in the >form of money from the international monetary >fund or the world bank. Who gives the most to the >UN? We do.
I think you need to do some research on the World
Bank before you start calling it some sort of
generous institution. The world bank is a business. They don't loan money out of "generosity". Like any lending instituion, they expect a return on the deal. The World bank has been consistently found corrupt, lending money to countries for unneeded projects that benefit large corporations (they are notorious for convincing countries they need huge Dams that cause untold headaches).
>...it was a bunch of tobacco smoking, gun toting >Americans who bailed you out.
and you wonder why americans have self loathing...
You conclude saying you're sick of foreigners trying to tell us how to run our country.
You should be rejoicing in it, after all,
Ain't free speech grand?
Being young is rough. Adolescence is worse. And junior high and high school years can be hell. I don't know why, but some kids just have this need to be cruel. I know. I'll never really heal from the seventh grade. For my seventh grade year, the entire student body called me "dyke."
Now, I'm not gay. I was a pretty normal kid. I'm not part of a minority. I am Jewish. I wasn't a cheerleader, but I wasn't the geekiest kid around. I was artistic, but I was never what you would call 'artsy.' Still, I guess there was something about me that made me a target. Maybe it was because I wore glasses. Maybe it was because I was smart. I don't know. All I do know is that I was different enough to be targeted by other insecure kids. And I was in a situation that made it easy for kids to believe that I was gay.
You see, all through school, I was lucky enough to be put into advanced classes. And I was musical, so I found an easy niche in the music department. By the seventh grade, my abilities in music were getting noticed by others, and I was alwasy seen on stage, either singing solos for chorus or having a leading role in the school play. I guess some people were unhappy about that. Out of that resentment, a rumor was started. A girl started a rumor by saying she saw me making out with a girl backstage. This was believable for a few reasons, I guess. I was often backstage, and at the time I was what you would call 'unattached.'
Well, you can believe that the rumor went through the grapevine like wildfire. Even though it was a lie, it was too juicy a rumor to keep quiet, and soon enough, everyone at school was whispering about me. I don't mean a few people. I mean the entire student body. Soon after, the name calling started. Every time I walked down the hall, I heard someone say the word 'dyke' over and over.
Adolescence is a time of insecurity for everyone. In my school it was harder for girls, just because guys didn't see that whistling and pinching butts was inappropriate. But every kid explores him/herself during this time. You explore your sexuality, you explore your appearance, you explore your life choices. You start dating too soon. I started dating too soon. I was eleven when I had my first boyfriend. And he dumped me because I wouldn't put out. He actually said that! I wouldn't put out! Geez. At twelve, I didn't even know what putting out was. Hell, I didn't have much to put out with back then... Anyway, if you're lucky, you leave the experience unscathed. When someone makes a statement about your sexuality, like these kids did, especially if it's untrue, it makes you stop trustin your own instincts; it makes you doubt yourself.
My self-confidence and self-image was shattered. Even younger kids were getting in on the name calling. I remember my across-the-street neighbor, who I played with since I was 3, calling me dyke at the bus stop. It was painful. Often, I ran from school crying, but there was no one I could tell. Obviously adults knew this was going on, but weren't doing anything to stop it. Even if there were someone to tell, I couldn't tell anyone. I was too embarrassed and ashamed. And I was afraid of the girl that started the rumor. Well, the two girls, really. They were older and bigger, and there were two of them. They could really hurt me.
The scars remained with me for a long time. Eventually, kids tired of the dyke game. Some of them even tried to become my friends. Some of them managed to make friends again. I went to high school. I dated a lot. I put out a lot. But I never dated anyone from my own school. Part of it was that I had trouble forgiving. And part of it was that I was convinced that no one would want anyone who was labeled 'dyke.' I guess the scars are still there. That's why they're called scars. It's been ten years since the seventh grade, and I still can't get the image of kids with mean and twisted faces, the chants of 'dyke, dyke, dyke' as I walked down the hall, head down. Even though I am graduating from Columbia University in just three weeks, have a great job and a boyfriend who loves me, I still have lingering feelings of doubt and depression. I don't understand why I deserve a life as good as I have now. Sometimes I don't know why someone as wonderful as my boyfriend would want me. The scars are deep and they are there.
To all those kids out there who are lonely, are feeling rejected, dejected and disrespected, I have some advice for you. Be strong. Understand that if you are being taunted, it's probably because the bullies who are taunting you need a pariah. They need to sacrifice someone in order to feel better about themselves. Chances are, you have intelligence and potential they can never have. And you are strong. Never forget your strength.
Notile les bastardes carborundum.
Don't let the bastards get you down.
Be careful that we do not, in the course of accusing the media and school administrations of placing blame on a group of people, that we do not ourselves place blame on a group of people. I noticed in the previous stories that a lot of geeks are blaming people, including jocks, bullies, parents, and school administrators.
We have met the enemy, and it is us.
-Ben
I've had firsthand experience with the press. A friend of mine was accused by his university of "maliciously hacking" a computer system. What he did was to create a series of nested subdirectories. About 180. They claimed that exhausted the inodes and took out the mainframe. We dug out the logs that proved he was innocent. They didn't care. They force-failed him in his classes and gave him a six-month suspension.
As a last resort, he went to the press. I, and others, went with him. The press made him out to be public enemy number one. After all, hackers are evil. That sold more copy...
To this day, my one real regret is that he never hired a lawyer... Or filed a lawsuit...
As for the press: Where do you think all those bullies went after High School?
My suggestion: Talk to the press. But preserve your anonymity. Don't let them use your face or name. Or perhaps even your voice. That way, when they get the story all wrong, and they will, at least YOU have some protection.
To any of you high school-aged kids that may have the opportunity to speak on this subject to a mass-media outlet, please think very carefully before you speak. We have already seen messages from youngsters that chose the wrong words when expressing their feelings and were removed from school, sent to counseling, or contacted by police. Many, many of use can relate to what these kids in Littleton were possibly going through, but expressing this view with the wrong words can make you a target for some "authority" to make an example out of you and show people that they are doing something. Please, don't let it be you that is used by people out to promote themselves.
I had a similar reaction from my wife and father- just a "whatever". My dad was more interested in writing a letter to the editor on gun control than discussing the root causes.
Likewise in high school, I ended up having to suck the stuff up and take it. This whole discussion with so many coming forward with their experiences has been unexpectedly theraputic.
It is very true the persecution was experienced by a variety of people- the strongest/most aggressive/"best socialized" on top. I wonder how/if this could be changed as it seems intrinsic in the structure of the schools. Maybe its a consequence of the individual school's administration- good administrators, good teachers wouldn't put up with this crap- but PHB school admins are another story. Frankly, how could you trust any Principal to stop people abusing you, when you've been brought up to fear talking to him/her. Sure, "their door is always open", and "they just want to be your friend"- but how can that trust exist when they have such power (some real, some imagined) over you? Even if they do something, and stop some jock from punching you in the stomach whenever you walk past- why then, he and his buddies have a reason to torture you.
The media coverage on this issue has been nauseating- they resemble a bunch of vultures feeding on the corpses. "Gee, why don't you poor kids give us a group hug so we can put it on the front page." This can only increase their irrelvance.
I hope there are enough media people with a concience and some particle of integrity to push some of the other aspects of this story.
Gregm
This is my life, and t his is my story. My life has begun, and has seemingly ended with the net. I'm 25 now, and I have nothing to show for what seems like a patethic life. Anyway, I want to tell my sad story, in the hopes that someone out there, a Good Samaritan as it were can at least point me in the right direction.
.58 average. My parents gave me the choice of going to a local community college, or getting kicked out of the house. I went to school. I hated it.
I am a Cuban-American, which is a nice way of saying I'm an American Citizen who doesn't identify with being American. I learned to spean Spanish first, and I never properly adapeted to being American. My formative years are very confused and very blurry, I think I remember being intelligent, but I was always getting into trouble with authority figures, wheter by calling them names, or having this need to make them feel stupid. I distinctly recall various events leading up suspension, and many, many, many frantic calls by tortured school administrators to my parents because I was "difficult" I was never evaluated or tested for any type of learning disability so I don't know... Maybe that's part of it.
High school was, difficult. If you've seen "Something about Mary". You know her retarded brother Warren? That's what it felt like to be me. I cried for a month after reading Ordinary People, because I thought that suicide was the best way to go. I didn't want to live, and I knew nothing was worth it. I never got around to actually killing myself primarily because I couldn't find a graphic enough way. I wanted something with explosions, that were guaranteed to work. None of this choking to death or shooting myself nonsense. I wanted something dramatic...sensational.
I'm fat, that describes me. High school was a fat person's hell. I mean, I wasn't Jabba The Hutt, but I was close. I was at least 60 pounds overweight throughout high school. The football people loved it. I was perfect to beat up in the locker room. I played for a single season, I did a lot of tackles, and I suffered through 2 weeks of football camp. I would always be last place in the running times, last place in number of tackles, and last place in anything. I ended up crying to the head coach, and I don't remember much more. I was curled up under the covers afraid to come out at that dreadful place. At the end of all that, 3 months later. I was barely able to keep up with the slowest runners on the team. And I got very good at accepting physical abuse. Fist fights in the locker room, headbutting lockers, that was easy. It was easier than dealing with reality.
Anyhow, that didn't last long. I had already discovered girls, and oh, great was my woe. I was under this mistaken impression that girls would like someone who was fat, if they were good at football. People on the team even told me as much. Anyhow, freshman year came and went without a single date, or even anyone I could even ask out. I pined for what I thought was the promised life with some girl, somewhere. It never happened. To this day, I still pine for Karen Ficken.
I did a lot of shop-lifting that summer. I stole every single Science Fiction book out of Waldenbooks near me. Whole bookshelves worth. I got caught by Mall Security near August, and they let me go with a warning. I at least had a friend, in Marilyn, a grammar school classmate who was somewhat antisocial, and we viewed this as our escape. She was a friend, and romanticism never blossmed. A couple of weeks after school started in September, she disappeared to Florida. Supposedly to be with her Lesbian lover, Tara.
I got a job, working in some Dental Office somewhere. Part time, after school. I sould suffer through the humillation in the hallways, and being a social outcast and I thought that if I had money, "chicks" would dig me. Never happened. I don't remember much besides setting up a BBS (you know, a Bulletin Board System), those quaint things that people did back then. I was rude, and obxnoious, and had a lot of other rude, online friends, who thought the same way. We did the usual pranks, lit up pentragrams in gasolines in school parking lots. That type of thing. I lost touch with all of them later on. I never knew what happened to any of them, I guess it was better this way. At least they couldn't pin down anything on me.
A couple of months went by, BBSing day in and day out. Never going out on weekends. I mean, sure, there was the occasional attempt to go to a dance, and try to talk to someone, and get laughed at or something. But I always went back to it.
Anyway, Sophmore year ended, and I worked in a factory over the summer. That was fun. I got yelled at, and beat up in the parking lot by these big black guys because I was making them look bad. I would hide in the rolls of shelves, and take naps in the scaffolding of a 3 story building. Hiding 20 feet above the ground seems to make you invisible.
That summer, I hacked my way into some local college, and discovered Usenet. Whoa, and IRC-ii. On what was to become EFnet's #bondage, I discovered many friends. Inanna, Kiran, Justice(JRJ), Crimson, Elf, Akasha, (I know I have my times mixed up here, because I was on for a while). I can barely remember the names of them all. People I talked to, almost daily. They were more real to me, than life itself. Their stories, their history, I lived my life through alt.sex.bondage. Downloading the newest story was the highlight of my week. Reading something new was, more important than any political story, or news article. Truth be told? I did an awful lot of sexual self-discovery through the wonders of alt.sex.binaries.erotica. I remember lots of fights, and people fighting about one of the bots on channel. Something about the "Great Banning of the Five". Who the five were? I only remember Inanna. I remember her being very high-strung, temperamental, and passionate about people she liked and cared about. She didn't really talk to me that much, and I tried to stay out of her way. I guess with practice, being meek comes easy. So does impersonating someone's email address. Live a lie, long enough, and you become the lie. Days, Weeks, months passed.
Junior year came and went. People did drugs in school, Mesc, and Pot, were the drugs of choice. I became known as the piss-drinker. I mean, sure it was diluted and all, but the reptutation persisted. People would point at me, and laugh. It doesn't matter where I would sit, people would just laugh. I discovered smoking, and booze. Soon, every day was a good day to drink. Sure, go to class bombed? Fun fun fun! I mean, sure I was still on IRC, but...well... I thought I was cool.
The year came and went, I didn't bother anymore. I read, and I was online. Meeting real physical people was a pretty big waste. I had a senior prom. I drank 2 liters of Absolut. I puked all over someone else's limo. I had to have a friend fix me up with someone, because obese old me, couldn't get a date if the future of humanity depended on it. I remember being so happy to graduate.
Ah, but then the story takes a morbid twist. I applied to school after school. My acceptance letters all came late. A college in Tennessee, and 2 local schools. Not a single school I wanted to go to, replied. I found out later, that my parents simply didn't mail checks with all the forms. They figured spending $50 for UCLA was pointless. I mean, sure, we can't afford it, so why bother.
I ended up going to a state school. I met Jenifer, there. She was a nice girl from Conn, we talked a lot. I tried to hit on her endlessly. To no avail. I don't know. Maybe there was a reason for it. I ended up meeting a Matthew-Sweet lookalike, who I hung with a bit. He was uh, great with ladies, and I was terribly jealous of his skill. He had dates, and was always going places. Me, I'd try to join a club, and be too timid to even apply. No, my nights were spent to a higher passion, reading stupid computer books, and figuring out how to play games. A few months later, I discovered I could lie, and stay home and be online all day and never go to class. I was able to do it for almost 2 years. Wow, I did a lot, and talked to a lot of people. None of them probably remember me anyway, so it's probably a blessing. Thankfully Deja News has none of my work archived (Whew). That would be really embarassing.
Around the same time, I started to hang out with my Sister's boyfriend a lot. He treated me like a brother. He showed me how to drink, how to smoke. I don't know, for a while there...*Gasp* I might have almost been cool. I had friends, places to go on weekends. It was probably the happiest time of my life. I did pot, I did coke. I went nightclubbing. I even bounced for a while. I vowed to make everyone in high school pay for the crimes they committed against me. My war against humanity was in full force. I vowed to see them drop, man, woman and child bow before me, as I sliced their throats. Death, Happiness, and rage filled my days. Liquor, and carnal pursits my nights. I worked in a go-go bar. I pitifully flirted with the dancers, while I secretly plotted their demise.
Anyhow, my sister broke up with him, on August 9, 2 days before my birthday. I ended up crashing my car after driving 65mph in city limits, and I nearly killed some other drunk driver. I was able to remain friends with him for nearly another year. I can remember after that, how the doors would come crashing down, and people wouldn't return my calls. I sank into a pit of misery and depression. Too apatehetic to take over the world, too lazy to even clean my room. I wallowed. I was kicked out of college for having a
I ended up meeting my first girlfriend. She was, a lot of things to me. She was white, she drank a lot. We faught a lot. I had sex. I used her for sex at first, and came to lover her after time. I tied her up. I got to do all the kinky things that festered within me for 20 long years. I abused her, I poured hot wax on her. I spanked her, I gagged her. I beat her, and I liked it. I enjoyed causing pain on her, and the fact that she liked it too, was kinda cool. Slowly, I started to come out of my shell, but I never became the person I wanted to be. I stayed with her because I was afraid, and I loved her. Afraid of being alone again, and Afraid of never finding someone else like that.
We grew, she moved. I changed her. I became a hardcore shoe fetishist. Money was no object for shoes. I downloaded pornography all day long. Gigabytes of it. Entire collections of buxom-beauties. 20, 30, 40 years old. It didn't matter. I tried to fill the hole in my heart with empty pictures of long dead women. Betty, Eva, and Whitney were close to me.
I changed jobs, and we stayed together. I discovered new torments, and Armbinders, and ball gags, and spreader bars, and everything else. New things waiting to be discovered. But the closer we became, the more she complained about how I felt empty. That I didn't romance her, that I didn't feel like I loved her. And it's difficult to feel like you can love someone when you can't even accept yourself. We faught a lot, nearly constantly. I hated a lot of what she did, she loved me through and through.
I changed jobs again, and got a job working for a major telco with a substantial salary. Technically my skills were without peer. Professionally? My attitude sucked. I couldn't get anything done that involved any sort of people skills. I lavished her with expensive gifts, and shoes. At one point her shoe collection was over 200 pairs. I brought shoes weekly. I lusted after them. I would follow women around, and ask where they brought them. I would buy any magazine that even showed a pair I hadn't seen before.
But through it all, we stayed together. Now, she went to the same community college I went to, and things went downhill. We never saw each other. I'm feel like I'm being dumped, but she explained that I needed the time to find myself. She didn't want to waste anymore time with me, if I was so fucked in the head.
I'm angry and I'm sad. I'm crying daily. Just hearing the sound of her voice brings me back to being fifteen. I mope, I'm angry, I'm rude. I'm cursing people on the way to work. I've been picking fights. I haven't yet gone to a cop and tried to get shot, but I think it's coming. She's still there for me, as a friend, but I feel so hurt. I could go on, but I'd rather not break out into a crying plea for her to take me back.
I need help. I need I don't know. Everything. The chance to erase my life and start over. I need therapy, and maybe more. I don't know. Drugs, Prozac, Thorazine, and maybe Ritalin. I don't know. I'm angry about everything, but I know that I don't fix myself, I'm going to die. Either Die a lonely and bitter man in 70 years, or I'll die in a brilliantly spectacular death somewhere on a highway somewhere.
I'm kinda lost on therapy. I know I can't afford it, but I can get it through my insurance. I'm posting a list of all the people on my plan. Hopefully someone who's scene aware can read it, and tell me if any of these quacks can help me. I understand that I'm a deviant, but I'd like to be able to go to someone, who can understand that I'm kinky. I don't know. I want to be normal, but I want to be kinky. I want to be skinny, and not fat. And while I'm working on the fat, I can't let my soul rot. I can't go online like this, and I'm turning to the one audience that helped me before in my time of need. I really don't know what else there is to say, except Thank You.
anonymous_loser@yahoo.com
about enjoying high school as much as I did. Is
there anyone else out there who doesn't think that
high school caused them life-long psychological
damage?
Sure, I was a geek. Sure, I was in the outcast
group (outcast group; is that an oxymoron?). Hell,
based on the outwear choices of most of my friends
in high school, I'll even say I was in the "trench
coat mafia" of my school.
Hell, we even experimented with explosives (with
full cooperation of our chemistry teacher, who
launched the Friday Afternoon Blow-Up Club for
us). I mean, at times HS was petty, and at times I
definately felt misunderstood or bullied by my
peer or adults, but the happy memories are in the
overwhelming majority: hanging out with my
compadres at Denny's late nights, bowling,
parties, cheap theatre movies, sneaking off campus
for lunch, fooling around while the girlfriend's
parents were away for a few hours...
I'm not sure, then, why I had a blast in high /. lately, I should have felt like a
school. Based on everything I've been
reading on
disaffected loner.
Can anyone back me up? Did anyone else have a good
time in high school?
----
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
school anymore, and suggest this response:
"Please don't speak to me."
That's the one thing I really love about college
over high school: you have rights. Nobody can
force you to do anything, and if they try to (say
they're a prof and therefore have some power
over you), you can always go to the Dean and
threaten a lawsuit. Watch 'em scurry for cover.
----
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Well, I've seen both sides of it. In Intermediate School (grades 6-8) i was an "outcast" who got straight As, and had very few friends. In high school, I'm still a straight-A student, but seem to get along with most people. My experience in high school seems to mirror yours more. The jocks and cheerleaders of course still won't have anything to do with me, but the rest of the people don't mind me, probably because i'm not an overachiever, not a "teacher's pet," and I help people out.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Posted by Perkolater:
Thanks for these links. This may be the first decent coverage TIME has given a major news story in years. I'm sure the concept that movies, video games, and goth culture don't necessarily lead to murder will be foreign to the TV news networks, but at least one news outlet in a position to influence people is saying it.
Of course, since they're a Time-Warner publication, I'm sure they'll be accused of "protecting their own interests" by some fundamentalist wankers, but hey, ain't that America?
-David
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>The average income in Germany is higher than in the USA.
Before taxes or after?
>>The TV, the telephone, the light bulb, the computer, the web and the Linux kernel were all developed in Europe.
TV, was inventd by a man named Philo Farnsworth, he was an American farmer.
Bell was obviously an American, as was Edison.
Early computers were just an evolution of a chinese invention. Perhaps http was developed in europe, but the internet (arpanet at the time) was invented right here in the US.
Even though Linus was in europe, he got help from people all over the world.
>>Not to forget the 20 Million Soviet soldiers that left their life during WWII. You're a little bit US-centric, you even say "Americans" and mean US citizens.
The soviets did contribute much ot the war effort, But who stormed the beach at Normandy? I use the term Americans, because they's how we refer to ourselves. I call myself an American, not a United States of American.
LK
Posted by Da ShRiKe:
:)
It's not that much of a miracle, at least in Austria (and I think in other European countries too) calculus is part of the curriculum during normal math courses for the last 2-3 years of highschool... go figure
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>Guns aren't the problem; they're but one of dozens of symptoms.
People are the problem, we are imperfect and we will always be. The tools we use to express that imperfection are irrelevent.
>>"The sun never sets on the British Empire"; it does now. The Merkin Empire will be one for the coroners, too; attitudes like your will only hasten the day of the autopsy.
It was attitudes like mine that quickened the erosion of the British Empire, It was attitudes like mine that helped the Roman Empire to end.
The survival of my country means little, it is the survival of my culture which is important.
Every empire, every civilization faces it's decline one day.
On the other side of the pond, many countries have gone through various deaths and rebirths over the past few thousand years. It is of no consequence if the king (metaphor) survives, it is only important if the culture survives, people can, have, do, and will rebuild when all that they have known is destroyed.
Nonetheless, that's merely an academic arguement. Neither you, nor I will live to see the fall of the USA.
LK
Posted by Bobeld:
I'm 49 years old and teach math at a middle school in New Jersey.
I grew up in the Bronx with all the emotional and physical pain that could be bestowed upon an "outcast".
I know what it's like to go to school with that raw feeling in your stomach and wonder how you're going to have to defend yourself that day.
I am now especially sensitive to my students who don't fit into the "mold" and suffer because of it. I have zero tolerance for kids who pick on other kids and tell my students that they have a right to come to school without having to fear being bullied.
Unfortunately, I have noticed that some of my colleagues are not as sensitive and are not paying closer attention. Kids are coming to school worried about being bullied and some of us adults are turning a deaf ear.
Students must be able to demand that school personnel look out for their safety and stop bullying in its tracks. Smarts and talent need to be the number one asset in school; not sports, physical attributes, and popularity. Teachers and adminstrators can help.
To my principal's credit, we have an honors day program at the end of each marking period. Honor roll and principal list students are recognized and parents are welcome to attend. A guest speaker is invited to give a speech on how education helped them become successful.
However, we still have a long way to go.
The two boys from Littleton had every right to feel abused, had a right to hate those who were abusing them. Trouble was-they went to the next level and acted on their feelings.
Members of society paid the ultimate price and so did the boys. What a shame.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
i nventors/dead980709/deadinventors.html
>>Check your facts. TV was invented by Manfred von Ardenne and first presented to the world on the Funkausstellung 1931 in Berlin. See here.
Check Yours.
http://eagle2.online.discovery.com/stories/dead
>>Did I mention who invented the car?
This I concede. However I never disputed it.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
Today on TV I saw that there was another school shooting...In CANADA! Now explain to me how in Canada, a country with "Sane" and "Sensible" gun control laws.
Things that make you go "hmmmmmmmmmmm?"
LK
Posted by GoPatGo:
Why don't you stop grasping at straws and get the real fucking issue for once.
Enlighten us. What is the real fucking issue that he's not getting? It may help.
Posted by Bobeld:
Re:Ways to avoid torment in public schools
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 28, @02:03PM EDT
Anonymous Coward writes:
"So if there are any school administrators or teachers reading this, I suggest you look to your conciences- please try to prevent this kind of thing from happening."
Having had a miserable school life and having had to defend myself physically time and again during junior high and early high school, I make it a point to have zero tolerance for bullying. I teach middle school in Northern NJ.
I also make it clear to the victims that this is their school as much as it is the bully's and they have a right to come here and enjoy the experience. Anyone who interferes with that will be dealt with.
There is no reason why a student should have to come to school with that "raw" feeling in his stomach as he contemplates a day filled with terror.
The trouble is that you are right about many administrators and teachers ignoring the rights of the students they are supposed to serve. A part of a teacher's responsiblity, in my opinion, is to be a role model - and accept each student for who she is. Inherent in this is that each student has a right to be and no one has the right to impinge on their rights.
Posted by vampyroteuthis:
/. some weeks ago.
I agree with quax. Here in Venezuela going through high school wasn't that bad, even for geeks. Geeks were at least respected, even the socially disfunctional. I can't remember of a single story of a geek been beaten by jocks. And I was the only boy with long hair on a school of 1500 kids.
This whole thing is somewhat related to this tale about the geeks who moved from Idaho to Chicago, posted on
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>But when there's a will, there's a way...
By George, I think you've got it.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>Do you think we Canadians and Europeans are here simply to talk down to you and cut the U.S. down a few notches?
I don't care what your intent is, but what the result will be.
>>Are we jealous of your rate of crime?
Are we jeleous of your history of violence?
>>Of your lack of health care?
Or your lack of quality in health care.
>>Of your lack of any gun control whatsoever?
Umm, excuse me? We get sweeping new gun control measures every time some nut runs amok with a firearm. It's kind of funny how the crime rate has gone up after every increase in gun control.
>>Of your exorbitant military spending?
Europeans don't seem to unhappy about it when our military is sent to save their arses.
>>I couldn't believe my eyes the other day when Clinton proposed that gun sales be restriced to ONE PER MONTH! One per month?!?!? That's a restriction*?!? Why would anyone need MORE guns, let alone one??
Why is it any of your business? I'm a gun collector, I've bought two guns in one week. Hell once even in the same day.
Clinton is a socialist at heart, and he too is a self loathing american.
>>We all live on the same planet here and we have to work together to ensure a sustainable future... it's time you began to think about the bigger picture rather than simply about the good ol' U.S. of A.
I don't care about how you choose to live on the other side of the pond. I'm not a "citizen of the planet earth", I'm an American. My country is more important to me than any other, or every other for that matter.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>So I am European. Do I want to take your guns away? Hell, no. If you want to collect guns that's cool, whatever works for you.
Cool attitude, I can deal with that.
>>The people who worry and who I assume worry you, are your fellow Americans who don't trust you to handle your guns and think there should be something like gun control.
The people who worry me are Americans who feel that we'd be safer if we'd disarm. The past century in Europe is enough proof for me that this is not true.
>>That's a bummer, because from what you wrote I am sure you are a very mature, stable and likable character.
I like to think so.
>>What I don't understand is why the NRA is not lobbying for a "gun control" that gives the current gun owners control. Instead they appear of being permanently in the defensive.
The NRA supports measures that will actually reduce crime. Gun Control does not. Since 1968 the murder rate in the US has gone up, even though there are thousands more gun laws on the books.
>>In my country you can buy all sorts of guns for sport and hunting, and you can keep them at home with ammunition. As you were pointing out Europe's history is violent, so there are a lot of traditional sport shooting clubs. The guys in these clubs make sure no psychos are admitted and register the guns. So everybody's happy: The guys who want to have guns and the rest who know that somebody is accountable for keeping track of them.
In this country, the right to own guns isn't predicated upon hunting, or sporting uses. We oppose federal registration because it can only be used as a tool for confiscation in the future. It was done that way in Nazi occupied europe, and it was done in US cities where gun posession was outlawed. We may not all be geniuses, but we're not stupid enough to fall for the same trick again.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>So why letting any government organization handling this kind of data? It's just an idea, but why doesn't the NRA keep track of guns on a voluntary basis? The NRA could put the data in a thouroughly encrypted database at a secret location. Then if the FBI looks for a weapon used in a crime the NRA can check if such a weapon is reported as missing. This way the NRA could demonstrate its commitment to fight gun abuse and limite the FBI's obsession to control your personal data by sending a strong signal that responsible citicens can handle this themselves.
Several reasons.
1. The NRA is not a government institution, they have no authority to keep such records.
2. Even if the NRA could be used in that fashion, who's to say that 15 years from now the group will not be taken over by anti-gun activists who just want to see it destroyed?
What many people don't understand is this, with our current system a firearm can be tracked to it's legal owner, but the process takes longer than 5 minutes. The people who push for federal registration do this because of how easy it would be to compile a list, so that they can later be confiscated.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
>>Like it or not, you ARE a citizen of the planet earth.
No, I'm not. I have never taken an oath to uphold the UN charter. I have however done so for the US constitution.
>>We are on the verge of a new millennium and you're babbling about evil socialists and how your guns will be taken away.
Socialism is evil. It takes away the desire to achieve, because if you do you'll be punished for it and those who don't will be rewarded.
>>Best you go back into your nuclear bomb shelter and worry about the black helicopters flying overhead.
I don't know about you, but black unmarked helicopers flying over my house at night and the sounds of machine gun fire.
But then again, I guess you wouldn't know.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
I believe that the reason we've got people attempting to use the recent tragedy in Colorado to disarm the American populace is multifaceted.
One of which is that the Europeans and Canadians are jelous of the freedom and prosperity that we have in the USA. As I'm sure most of us have experienced, it's like when you get a roomfull of your classmates angry at you for "ruining the grading curve".
I believe that the Europeans carry a cultural bias against us because many of the early immagrants to this land were ejected from european nations. Now we have the most powerful nation on the planet. Like when the geek who get's picked on by Johnny Football hero grows up to invent something that cost more than Johnny's gas pumping job will allow him to afford.
Self loathing among Americans is once again on the rise. There are some in our midst who feel guilt at the great advances we've made. They have been seduced by the hope of being glamorous like the eurotrash imagery that they are fed in the tabloids and from hollywood. In order to purge themselves of that guilt they concentrate on the negative aspects of our country. We've got x nmber of homeless...We had y number of murders last year...Only z of us could afford health insurance last year.
They convienently leave out that x*230 have homes. That y*5000 are living in relative safety.
Guns are made the target because our attitude towards them is unique in the world. In this country the PEOPLE have the power to determine their own destiny. We can't be forceable quieted by the government if we say something too unpopular. Or if we tell a secret that the government doesn't want out. Or if we refuse to have the conditions of our lives dictated to us. A few individuals among us have been silenced, but there are many more carrying on the work.
The fact that Kevin Harris shot and killed William Degan and was later AQUITTED of murder charges because Agent Degan was involved in an illegal operation is proof that the system we have in place can and does work.
People all over the world bash the US, but they're more than happy to take our aid in the form of money from the international monetary fund or the world bank. Who gives the most to the UN? We do.
The US has enough gun laws on the books right now (actually we have too many). If law enforcement was allowed to enforce them properly we wouldn't need any more. Bill Clinton claims that the brady Act stopped the sale of over 250,000 guns to people who were prohibited from owning them. If that's te case why have there not been 250,000 prosecutions for attempting ti illegally obtain a gun? Why because it's a sham, it's a lie. They want to change the way we think about firearms. They've even thrown out the Red Herring of "sporting arms". The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with sporting. Not target shooting, not duck hunting, not necessarily even home defense. The words of the men who wrote the constitution confirm this.
Before you atttempt to make us into potential victims like yourselves, just keep in mind the last time your "safe" european countries were in trouble, it was a bunch of tobacco smoking, gun toting Americans who bailed you out.
Guns availability is not the issue, remember Dunblane Scotland? No matter how tight your controls are, there will always be nutcases who go berzerk and attack innocent people.
After all, in the 1930's-1940's Germany had nice restrictive laws related to guns.
http://www.jpfo.org/L-laws.htm
Sorry for the rant, but I've grown weary of outsiders and know-notings telling us how to run our country.
LK
It's a usenet concept. In September the noise-to-signal ratio goes up in Usenet because thats when lots of new college kids discover the existence of Usenet for the first time.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
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=8^
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=8^
This is absolute bullshit! The only one this applies to, off the top of my head, would be Ted Turner. Rupert Murdoch is the archetype and apotheosis of modern media moguls -- not only are they right of center, they actively promote right-wing causes with their dollars, airtime, and column-inches, far more than the moguls of previous eras. Bill Paley is long gone, and the myth of the "liberal media" should have died about 20 years ago. Even Pat Buchanan admits to being tongue-in-cheek when he uses such a phrase. You are so force-fed and out-of-touch that you probably didn't even know that your beloved Barry Goldwater was pro-choice and a supporter of Planned Parenthood. Were you born yesterday?
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=8^
The TVs love to interview someone crying. It looks so good. IF there are any good actors out there, who also have put a coheirant sentance togather (I'm neither) please do take the media attention. But if you cannot advance the geek cause, stay out of the spotlight.
Remember those ice skaters are few years back, one tried to take the other out (tynia Harding? and Nacny Carriagan?) the media people I know/trust tried to have sympathy for the one who was hit, but she eventially earned the title of dope because she chouldn't say anything useful to the media. If you can't carry on an intelligant coversation under pressure (I can't) plase stay away.
So if you can advance the geek cause, please change the world. The rest of us support you, and will try to stay out of the way.
blaming jocks for geeks' troubles, than
there is about blaming geeks for society's
problems.
For that matter, you just can group people
together like that. It can only lead to problems.
-Suydam
Werd.
theres a song in there somewhere...
:P
oh yeah.. the scorpions
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
eloquently put, even tho he was a total pervert, like at the age of 80-something, he was living in a barn w/ a young teenage-aged girl that he was boinking.
Probably not the best person to use as an example even if his words were written well
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
"If we are what we eat, then the only real humans are cannibals."
Sorry.. just had to take issue with this. How would the cannibals be real humans if the humans they are eating are not cannibals(and therefore not real humans)? Just curious :)
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I'm over 30 and a little removed from this but just how is someone going to contact you if you don't give out contact info?
I was reading Calvin and Hobbes, and came across this cartoon. I think it's appropriate to the topic.
--Phil (That's all. i already poured my heart out in the previous articles.)
355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!
In conclusion, I'd like to say that it's BS if you think it should be part of growing up. NO KID should have to be picked on, in no way does it make you stronger inside and anyone who disagrees never had it really bad. It's not just because kids feel outcast that they act cruel, there are probably a lot more reasons varying from bully to bully. Some have violent parents or have been molested in the past, others might have a short temper and are unable to control their emotions. Then there are the kids who act like they're playing along so they don't suffer the same treatment, even though they don't feel right about it.
"pedal the instruments. . ."?
What are you talking about? Bicycles don't kill people! People kill people! Besides, the bicycles these kids used were already illegal!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ts/story.html ?s=v/nm/19990428/ts/canada_shooting_1.ht ml
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I never felt sorry for Cordelia. She was a class-A bitch when she was a popular, and she was a class-A bitch when she hung out with the slayers, and now that she's back in the "in-crowd" she's still a class-A bitch.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
fuk LSD, I'm from "central coast" California, all our TV is imported from LA, and you know what? I never watch the local news because it's nothing but a list of the dozen or so people who died violent deaths that day. High speed chases, hostage situations, gang warfare.
Then we had this local guy get arrested for parole violation this week, and found out that he'd been responsible for the disappearance of two local college girls. (they found the bodies). No escape, even in remote, rural California.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Laura,
/., I cannot believe that among ALL the people reading this poor beleagred server, not a single one is a schoolteacher who has NEVER seen this happen. I betchya a nickel, there ain't such a thing.
I say this with the big mouth smartass tone that got me in trouble with the jocks a lot:
If Bullies are outlawed, then only outlaws will be Bullies.
But seriously, I don't think that a simple BAN on bullying will fix this problem. The bullying will simply be driven underground, and more subtle means used. (when you were tripped, were you able to get the kid arrested - did you have any PROOF that that kid tripped you? or were you just clumsy?).
See what I mean? But there definately should be some kind of culpability for teachers who look the other way, side with the pops reflexively, or even just ignore the weirdos in favor of the pops. IMHO, we also need to separate sports from education. My son goes to a grade school that has no sports outside of gym class. If he wants to play soccer or baseball, I sign him up for little league. What's so hard about that?
The story a couple days back about the Louisiana school that spent $5 million on a football stadium is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Jocks per-se aren't bad, it's the fact that they captivate so much attention and glory at the school, that people who aren't jocks become second-class citizens in the eyes of the staff.
And though we've had numerous accounts of this kind of thing here on
Sure, I know, not ALL schools are like that. In fact, I'd bet less than half are all THAT sports crazy, but I'll also bet that the quality of life for the smart kids in those schools is WAY better, and the science labs and libraries much better funded.
So, you dump sports, and then make the geeks king, so who prevents the geeks from wolfpacking the jocks? Responsible staff, and responsible (informed) parents. That's who.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
come to think about it, maybe some district administrator needs to set aside some time in his/her busy paper-shuffling day to be an ombudman for picked-on kids who are afraid to turn to the staff of the local school. Or maybe it shouldn't be someone employed by the schools at all.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I truly don't believe that either of these two kids would have ever bought into racism, Naziism, or anti Christianism (is there a "term" for that?).
When I was in HS, my twisted little mind found many ways to retreat from those that caused me pain, including a fascination for guns/bombs/militarism, as well as Paganism. It started with a self-defensive superiority complex, where I convinced myself that I was better than "normal" people, because I was smarter, or a non-conformist, or a free-thinker. Some of that was helpful in establishing an identity in a world that wouldn't let me be normal, and some of that was pretty destructive, but ultimately, I don't know why, I turned back from "the darkness".
I have to also admit, that I teased too. I was prolly about 20% up from the bottom in the social pecking-order at my school, and I'm not proud of it. So I'm having a hard time coming to grips with pain AND guilt. I can't blame the teasees (shooters) because I was teased, and I can't blame the teasers (because I teased), and I sure as hell can't blame music, video games, or guns, because I have at least half a brain. I guess I can turn to "the system" like everyone else, and relate that I too witnessed the institutionalization of the "caste-system" - where teachers favored the popular kids, and ignored the unpopular ones, and in judging conflict, the administrators most often sided with the populars. (in fact, I was almost arrested because some jock stole a kid's walkman, and said he saw ME do it. The thing that saved me was that they searched my person, and my locker and couldn't find the walkman).
Can I empathize with the rational that caused these kids to go berzerk? Yes. I "snapped" at some point, and others describe it here too. Hand-to-hand seems so much more "acceptable" than guns and bombs. It shouldn't have to be, and frankly, I don't know what would have become of me had I not become proficient in HapKiDo, or had I been physically just plain unable to win or at least draw my fights. Not all oppressed kids have enough of a physical stature - possibly the reason why they are being teased. (
Mostly I'm just glad to know that I'm not alone, and that it's damn great to not be in school anymore.
Life is a Bitch.
School is it's son.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Far, far too true.
I would go so far as to say the Captain of the *team and the Prom Queen are also alienated.
I'm going to turn to my favorite television serial, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (laugh if you want, but this show is more "tuned in" to teen issues than anything else on TV with the possible exception of Dawson's Creek):
The character of Cordelia has a couple of times ranted along the lines of "You think it's easy having everything you do monitored by the social elite for coolness? You wouldn't believe the pressure of having to dress like this everyday or lose my friends..."
Laugh if you think this is funny, but it is very real to a lot of high school students. I may have been out of high school for quite a while, but I am still well acquainted with high schoolers (many of my friends have high school age kids who consider me Uncle Brian and talk about things that are going on in their lives -- believe me they aren't making this stuff up).
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
Something is very wrong here. I believe (someone with statistics back me up here, please) the number one cause of violence done to teen-agers is done to them by their parents.
It's no wonder kids on rare occasion go off the deep end when they are ostracized at school, many kids have no one at home they can even begin to talk to. Plus you end up carrying around the burden of knowing why one of your friends has a black eye (no, not a fight, he just didn't answer fast enough when his father asked a question)...
Sometimes there are no good choices. That doesn't excuse making bad choices, but what's a barely experienced 17 year old going to do?
I wish I had an answer.
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
I've been there too. I didn't realize how hardened I had become until about a week ago, when a very good friend cared enough to yell and coax and plead and accuse me enough until I found it.
Thanks for sharing. This whole affair is making a lot of us think about ourselves and how much many out there are like us.
Your life and what you do with it is your responsibility. It's part of being an adult. In opposition to popular opinion and the law, being a responsible adult does not have anything to do with age. I know, I did not grow up until I was 25.
OK, so you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Guess what? Most people aren't. So, you are just like most. Want another bit of insight? Fifty percent of the population has below average intelligence. I'm willing to bet that you are not a member of that set. So, there you are, actually born with a gift that gives you an advantage over half of the people out there. Use it.
Sure, there are some potholes in your way. You have the choice. Run into them, get stuck and cry, or run into them get stuck and find a way out. Learn to avoid them in the future.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
...of that phrase entirely. Words only hurt if you let them. Someone that doesn't know me can't insult me. All they can do by trying is degrade my personal opinion of them.
OTOH, if I hear someone that does know me insulting me, it gives me pause. What did I do to warrant that? This person is my friend. What's gotten them in such a mind that they would want to insult me. Is it my fault, or something else. It still doesn't hurt unless they are probing some wound, or some personality fault that I already know exists. If they are pointing out some failure or fault that I have not recognized, then I am thankful and glad. I will have to work harder to make myself a better person.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
Item number 4.
>4. Keep your own record of the interview and have someone else present (a parent or trusted adult if you are a minor)
When you enter the "interviewing space" have your recorder out in the open and on, even before the interview actually starts. Don't act hostile, just tell them that you are making a recording for your own future reference. Tell them that you are doing research on the mass media or whatever...
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
I can see the // at the bottom as well as you can. The object was to get people in general, not just the AC, to stop considering themselves as victims.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
There is a difference between verbal ostracization and physical abuse.
Certainly, if one is different, it is not surprising that some might make cruel comments. If one to be different, they should expect it. The price of individuality is often rejection. Many of us consider that a fair trade.
But, in the vein of "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me," a line has to be drawn between verbal taunts and actual battery.
Even though the perpetrators may not "understand" the consequences of their actions, this does not mean that victims must accept them: as adults we do not imprison the violent mentally ill - we institutionalize them (that such institutions closely resemble prisons in many cases is unfortunate, but at least we distinguish between criminal behavior and mental illness). In any case, we serve to protect the innocent.
A school environment should not be different.
In Liberty, Rene
My wife has gone so far as to threaten to turn me in for sharing many of the non-mainstream-media views expressed here.
If you quote me, please do not do so out of context, or at least use ellipses (...) when truncating a sentence of mine. Thanks.
As for the threats, they're not grounds for divorce. Beside, I'm happy to call her bluff. If I am arrested, she has no means of support and no right to work in the U.S. She makes idle threats all the time.
In Liberty, Rene
She refuses to go. And, unless she agrees to go, there's little point to spending the money. I've already been advised that it is pointless to seek counseling alone if she is not willing to cooperate.
In her defense, I must add that she barely has a high-school education, and some community courses. I suppose I should not be surprised that she is influenced so heavily by the mainstream media.
She usually echos mainstream views for a while after some incident and then settles down.
Occasionally, she realizes that my views are more in-line with reality, but it is a tough slog at times. This is one of those times.
It doesn't help that we're both extremely stubborn in defending our respective views.
In Liberty, Rene
Thanks for the FYI.
I suspected as much, though couldn't I be held under "anti-terrorism" laws or some such? (Not that that would be constitutional, IMHO).
In Liberty, Rene
...but words cut much more deeply.
Unfortunately, it is much more difficult to objectively measure emotional harm, or whether it exists at all, compared to physical abuse.
At least end the physical abuse (that no adult has to tolerate, so why should children?). "Kill the fat rabbit first," as the expression goes.
Then start considering other forms of abuse who's effect is more difficult to detect.
In Liberty, Rene
... keeping things humming along?
For just a day, perhaps. Make it an annual event.
Hmm, "Atlas Shrugged" Day, anyone?
(Atlas Shrugged is a novel by Ayn Rand that explores the question of what would happen if all the people who make the world "work" just stopped, is if the mythical Atlas, holding up the world, shrugged.)
In Liberty, Rene
There are good days and there are bad days.
But, of course, I expected as much when I got married. Though, I find that my tolerance for some of my wife's antics is greater than up with which most people would put (with apologies to W. Churchill). Perhaps because I've seen much worse.
In Liberty, Rene
... if you can actually say thing like 'if I am arrested' or contemplate the idea of her doing so for such a silly reason, I don't see grounds for not having an divorce.
...but she should still be able to listen and emphasize with you...
Those grounds being?
Seriously, this sounds like a communications problem to me.
Difference of opinion, more likely. What part of "I don't agree" can lead to a semantic gap?
Yes.
IThe right to free speech was developed specifically for unpopular speech.
Except that does not apply here. One can not be forced to listen to what one does not wish to hear in one's home. She can argue that my stating a different point of view in the home amounts to verbal abuse.
If you can't sit down with your wife and share the same kinds of feelings that you are sharing with your fellow Slashdot'ers, there's something seriously wrong in your marriage.
My wife is not a geek, and can't possibly understand geeks in the same way that another geek can.
Empathy requires a common experience, at some level. I am not about to suggest that she be subject to constant beatings all the while being told that they are her fault (though I have gently knocked her in jest and suggested she "fit in" to show the absurdity of that suggestion) just so she can empathize. Besides, I want her to understand, not empathize. Empathy is dangerously close to sympathy.
I suspect that her reaction is one of "turning the blinder's on" instead of facing the magnitude of the horror that goes on. Sort of like people refusing to believe that the Nazis could actually engage in the atrocities they did.
It also sounds like her constant 'idle threats' are a way of her controlling you.
Perhaps, but that is understandable: I earn all the money, she couldn't get a job back home (and can't here in the U.S. because of visa restrictions), can't or doesn't cook, and can barely keep the house clean while dealing with a sometimes over-active 5 year old. A desire for "control" is not surprising.
Is that the position you want to be in - submissive to her demands versus part of an equal relationship?
Ah, but I choose the demands to which I submit, and at what price. That is called compromise. Right now I happen to be very stubborn about a few things (like not wanting a second child when she can't handle one, and the fact that I was advised that she shouldn't get pregnant).
Consider that I can buy what I want, go wherever I want, stay at work as long as I want, and she's stuck at the mercy of receiving an "allowance" from me (though I provide an equal allowance for myself after the usual expenses are paid) and burdened with looking after a child. It is not surprising that she desires control, though it is sometimes upsetting how this manifests itself.
Yeah, I know I pry sound like a damn psychologist and am probably butting into someone else's business, but then again, I call 'em
as I see 'em.
If I didn't care for feedback, I wouldn't share my views.
The bottom line is that even the people who supposedly know us best sometimes recoil in horror and act irrationally at some of our different views. I was merely providing an example of this.
P.S. Don't send mail regarding this to my published address -- she reads it. If you wish, send mail to rhollan@flashmail.com
In Liberty, Rene
Anyone have their familiy not get it or actually turn on you for telling them the truth?
My wife has gone so far as to threaten to turn me in for sharing many of the non-mainstream-media views expressed here.
Getting this message out is, however, worth any personal marital hell I may face for my views.
In Liberty, Rene
One of which is that the Europeans and Canadians are jelous of the freedom and prosperity that we have in the USA. As I'm sure most of us have experienced, it's like when you get a roomfull of your classmates angry at you for "ruining the grading curve".
Last time I checked, the percentage of total population in prison was eight times higher in the USA than in every European country. Exporting open-source crypto is legal in most European countries, and smoking pot is legal in some. The average income in Germany is higher than in the USA.
The TV, the telephone, the light bulb, the computer, the web and the Linux kernel were all developed in Europe.
So much for "freedom and prosperity".
Before you atttempt to make us into potential victims like yourselves, just keep in mind the last time your "safe" european countries were in trouble, it was a bunch of tobacco smoking, gun toting Americans who bailed you out.
Not to forget the 20 Million Soviet soldiers that left their life during WWII. You're a little bit US-centric, you even say "Americans" and mean US citizens.
Sorry for the rant, but I've grown weary of outsiders and know-notings telling us how to run our country.
Same here. I am weary of a Mr. Aaron trying to tell us how to handle crypto, a DEA trying to enforce their wierd idea of drugs on us, and a US Navy trying to play world police.
Just that you as a country did a few things right in the past when all the rest of the world was sound asleep doesn't mean you've got everything right.
>The average income in Germany is higher than in the USA.
Before taxes or after?
Both. Not to forget the better social security and health insurance.
>The TV, the telephone, the light bulb, the computer, the web and the Linux kernel were all developed in Europe.
TV, was inventd by a man named Philo Farnsworth, he was an American farmer.
Check your facts. TV was invented by Manfred von Ardenne and first presented to the world on the Funkausstellung 1931 in Berlin. See here.
Bell was obviously an American, as was Edison.
Sure, but Bell didn't invent the telephone, Phillip Reis did. And Edison didn't invent the lightbulb either, it was an engineer named G oebel who presented the first lightbulb in 1854.
Both Bell and Edison were just very successful in marketing other people's inventions, just as Microsoft is today.
Did I mention who invented the car?
Early computers were just an evolution of a chinese invention.
The first working computer was been built by Konrad Zuse, though.
The soviets did contribute much ot the war effort, But who stormed the beach at Normandy?
I do not underestimate the influence of US intervention in WWII, but you shouldn't overestimate it. After all, when the US started intervention, the Soviets had been in the war for five years, and the odds had turned to them. Who stormed Berlin?
[Found in a university term paper analyzing Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange.]
I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. -- desert rain on http://www.dailykos.com/user/
Prepare to suffer the fury of /. :)
InThane
...but words cut much more deeply. The price of being an individual SHOULD NOT be our sanity, our emotional well being, our future. Emotional battery often has a much deeper and longer-lasting effect than physical battery ever could. Snuff it out before it begins. Teach children to respect those who view the world in other ways. Up with the Dogma of Otherness!
InThane
His comment was sarcastic, ok?
InThane
I remember the saying, but I don't remember who said it. "It is important in the process of fighting monsters, that we ourselves do not become monsters." This is the most important thing. Pointing the finger is not what will solve the problem - that's what got us here in the first place. Instead, offer solutions. Yes, school administrators, jocks, teachers, and parents are part of the problem, but that doesn't mean that we should just blame them and expect them to fix it. We need to stop letting ourselves be the victims. We need solutions. Suggestion: Read "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine" by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette. That book has done more to help me understand our society's dysfunction than 25 years of living in it did. The first couple chapters are really the most awakening, then for the rest of the book, I was saying "Uh-huh, right, yeah, that makes sense..."
InThane
I bet there was more than 16..
Last Wednesday, there was an anthrax scare at the neighboring town's school, and also a exacuation of our school when there was a bomb threat on that day also. On thursday, there were like 4 other bomb threats around our area schools, and yesterday, there was an anthrax scare at a neighboring school. Weird stuff going on.
--
Scott Miga
I had some bad days. Thinking about it, there were quite a few bad days. Maybe every day had some difficulties. Somehow, my memory just forgets about most of the bad times.
Perhaps I was lucky. I remember a bad day I had where a gang of people behind me in class started talking about me and one simply said, "I'm going to slit his throat." That was too much for me. I complained and luckly the office had an officer called him in with me to check it out. Of course, the guy played stupid. The officer, shortly joined by two others stated it was ok if he was denying it, but stated what would happen to him if there was any more trouble out of him. That was luck. Usually, the teachers ignore or even laugh at how people do not get along.
Funny how I remembered high school to be so good until I remember things like this. Man, it was hell. Every day, lockers were getting caved in from someone's skull. I would daily see the fist of some well endowed guy firmly planted in another's stomach. If I had to do it all over again? Now that I think about it, no thanks.
College was much better. There were fewer sociopaths.
Anything you say, will and can be mis-represented.
I am a senior technician where I work. It is important that I comunicate what happens in hopes to make our jobs easier. I do the night shift and a few years back started the tradition of compiling an email of the night's electrical breakdowns of machines in the plant. No matter how concise or descriptive I am of the incident and repair, how people interpret the report gets back to me. People seem to have it in their nature to place the blame on other people, not even when it is a machine that fails. For this reason, I hate describing technical failures as the email might make it to the COO, from and then back down the ranks again. The email may also might be further distorted through opinions in the course of daily meetings.
Media distortion. There is a game called gossip. A dozen friends gather in a circle and the object is to attempt by word of mouth as a secret, from one to another, pass a some kind of information. In the end, it is a real twisted riot.
That is why I hate the media and place real value in the internet when it comes to news. I take newspapers and CNN at entertainment value, if its worth anything at that.
There is a small deer problem in Texas. I visit my sister in Austin twice a year and have seen many blood stained roads. They are brown with big red splotches everywhere. Either the deer is constantly picked up and those deer crossing signs really mean something, or they play some serious paintball down in Texas.
There was a hunting problem too in nearby Round Rock where they were considering banning shooting within so many feet of a house. Too many people hunt, because there were too many deer.
This may explain why many people in Texas drive big trucks: so they don't end up with a deer in their lap on the drive home from work. Front bumpers on trucks are cheap to replace too. Compare it to hitting a deer with your car.
I was perhaps the skinniest kid in junior high, but also had red hair. Talk about getting attention. Physical education was mandatory and one of the activities was football. I can tell you about getting flattened into the ground by some big dudes. My interest in electronics and comptuters got noticed and was able to help others. People knew I was worth something and I was looked at more than some weakling.
What saved me was getting any jobs I could and getting money for activities and later a car. Money makes it possible to do fun things and people like to join fun activities. When I turned 16, I did my time at Burger King making $100 to $200 a week part time at minimum wage. Had a nice car too. The jocks knew I was working hard and came to respect me. One insisted that I date his sister (unfortunately, I refused as I was dating another at the time.)
The best way to enjoy school is to be a fun person. The person who has the most fun, wins. It helps to have money and squander some of that precious time after school. After all, there is a lot of stress and there needs to be places to go and people to see. We didn't have the internet back then, we had the telephone, CB, cars, public parks, cruising strips, parties, etc. Nowadays, its too easy to find someone to talk to. Back then, we had to really get inventive to meet people.
After reading the cover of the latest Time, The Monsters Next Door, I thought "oh no, more persecution". Imagine my surprise to see a balanced look at the issues:
- The Curse of Cliques
- Page 2 of the cover story goes over the daily treatment received(bottles/rocks thrown at them from moving cars, persecution from jocks and teachers, etc.)
- Coverage of the Goth scene in We're Goths Not Monsters
- Flash: movies don't kill people from Bang, You're Dead
- The computer age may be giving kids a new outlet for their dark fantasies, but that hardly means it is turning them into killers. from Digital Dungeons, an article covering software.
I suggest that Time is commended by our community for covering the truth behind the issue.I just hope that we can avoid a permenent September. While moderation may be preventing such a situation, I'd really prefer some way of getting people to behave responsibly than enforcing responsibility. The reality of that is unlikely; still, I can dream.
/.'s system is probably one of the best. I just don't like that there is a system, that's all)
(could be much, much worse.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I'm going to _assume_ that you're really asking this question and are not being facetious.
;)
Traditionally, the quality of usenet posts suffered greatly every September. It's entirely coincidental that large numbers of students enter school in September, and are given access to the Internet.
Unfortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it) edu domains no longer produce the domiant number of newbie posters. Now we get newbies all year 'round. Oh boy!
According to the Jargon Guide, anyhow, the permanent September (ESR has it as "The Septmeber that never ended") began in September of '93, when AOL got usenet access.
I had gotten an edu account through FSU a little while before that, so I get to gripe a little bit. The amount of griping one's entitled to is proportonate to the time spent on the net prior to that date.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I just wanted to briefly thank Jon Katz for all of the hard work he's done on this story. Millions of kids across the nation know the pain of being abused by their peers and thanks to Jon and Slashdot, this message is finally getting out.
For those of you in High School, be careful but vocal. Don't let other students trample over your rights. Physical and mental abuse is something that shouldn't be tolerated in any environment, espically by young people. Hopefully by getting the word out, we can make a change.
United we stand, Divided we fall.
Yup, Katz's article (including a few choice quotes) is mentioned in the LA Times today. Follow the link to read it.
-mike kania
>>My wife has gone so far as to threaten to turn me
>>in for sharing many of the non-mainstream-media
>>views expressed here.
>As for the threats, they're not grounds for
>divorce. Beside, I'm happy to call her bluff. If I
>am arrested, she has no means of support and no
>right to work in the U.S. She makes idle threats
>all the time.
No offense or anything, but if you can actually say thing like 'if I am arrested' or contemplate the idea of her doing so for such a silly reason, I don't see grounds for not having an divorce.
Seriously, this sounds like a communications problem to me. Are you in the US? If so, we have this free speech mechanism to protect such things. The right to free speech was developed specifically for unpopular speech. Popular speech with mainstream support doesn't require protection.
If you can't sit down with your wife and share the same kinds of feelings that you are sharing with your fellow Slashdot'ers, there's something seriously wrong in your marriage. Sure, she may not understand as well as we do (ie. she may not have the term 'geek' tatooed on her forhead) but she should still be able to listen and emphasize with you...
It also sounds like her constant 'idle threats' are a way of her controlling you. Is that the position you want to be in - submissive to her demands versus part of an equal relationship?
Yeah, I know I pry sound like a damn psychologist and am probably butting into someone else's business, but then again, I call 'em as I see 'em.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
- Jeff
>Anyone have their familiy not get it or actually
:>
>turn on you for telling them the truth?
It's kind of funny that you mention this. I personally haven't talked about it with my girlfriend (of 4 years), as I'm not really sure what to tell her.
Like a lot of people, I guess I was kind of living in a shell throughout most of my school career. School was hell, but I eventually got out of it.
When I met my gf, I had finally snapped out of it. No, I didn't take on jock-like characteristics by any means, but I learned to be pretty happy with who I am, to accept who I had become, etc. She never knew the 'old' me, really.
From her perspective, I'm just a guy with geekly leanings. I admit it, we both laugh about it from time to time, it's no big deal. She wasn't the most 'popular' kid in her school, but by no means was she a geek. She was well liked and for the most part made it through with no hatred toward her or those like her. I don't think she would understand that part of things.
Sure, she knows I spend WAY too much time in front of a computer, but at least I get paid for it. She knows I prefer reading to a lot of TV, and science fiction impressed me more than the average romatic comedy Hollywood spews out. Yeah, I even used to play RPGs (gasp!) on occasion. No big deal. She loves me anyhow, which is great - but she doesn't know what it was like way back when, either.
Strangely enough, though, after I left high school everything changed. I had slain the worst demons of bad self image, and that was the end of that. Now I'm a 20 year old part time college student with a '96 Eclipse, a beautiful girlfriend, and a job that I enjoy (please don't consider me a yuppie, as I'm not - honest! *grin*). I see these shmucks on a regular basis and realize that they'll never leave this town. In a way, that is the greatest revenge.
To those of geekly leanings still in school - hang in there. Your time will come. You'll "fill out" as a person, become more attractive (even if just in spirit), and learn to live with yourself and even enjoy being who you are. For the time being, find some people outside of high school who can understand you - they're out there. The denizens of Slashdot have real life counterparts, you know. Ride the rough seas of high school and you will eventually be just fine. Trust me.
Anyhow, I now carry on my quest to show my gf the beauty of the geek world. She's taking May 19th off with me (why, you ask?!?), loves video games (mostly RPGs), and is learning HTML as we speak - without a wizzy-wig editor. Much can be said for a 'late bloomer'.
I guess being a geek really is an outward manifestation of the best things humanity can offer. Tolerance. Curiosity. Creativity. Passion. Rest assured, these are not qualities to be ashamed of... Be proud, be safe, and be yourself.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
- Jeff
It was mentioned on Howard Stern this morning that Rosie O'Donnell started crying over the Colorado thing on her show and said that it was because of guns...but she shills for K-Mart, a store that sells guns! Another instance of hypocrits on the television...
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.
I don't know what to say my friend. It's been gnawing at me like crazy as well.
My wife sounds a bit geekier than yours (and hey, that adjective is by no means a perjorative, thank you very much). She endured some of this #$%^ in jr. high, but went to a high school where honors classes etc. were actually valued. Did the same problems exist @ her high school? She can't say; either they didn't exist or she was oblivious to them. (She can be brutally honest about people, including herself. That's one of the reasons why I married her.)
There's a reason for her trepidation. Both of us are getting involved in anti-discrimination workshops as of late, and there's one thing that's very peculiar about members of any privileged class (i.e. "normal people", whatever that means). They'll not only deny that a problem exists; they'll be TOTALLY UNAWARE that the system has favored them (or at least never counted against them). No clue, zip, nada, nobody home. Your wife may be completely naive to everything, and it may not necessarily be her fault. (Just as you can be a racist without being a Klansman, if you catch my drift.)
I'd keep at her, though. It's not too much to ask the person you hope to spend the rest of your life with to understand (and to confront?) the issues that are important to you. And that is not too much reading for one day.
Again, take care; I hope she sees the light someday..
-----
".sig,
> Anyone have their familiy not get it or actually turn on you for telling them the truth?
Yep. I had to break up with my last gf because of my geekliness. She said I was "trying too hard to be different." I am just different because... I just am. She couldn't understand how I could not mind standing out in a crowd in any way: physically, intellectually, spiritually. Strangely enough, those very qualities that she says make me "undesirably noticable" are exactly what made her notice me in the first place. Strange, that...
There are people who never will understand this.
They are simply incapable of it. Not necessarily
because they lack empathy - though the empathic
ones will at least sense your pain - but because
they so utterly lack any kind of frame of
reference. Virtually all of them were either
part of the "in" crowd, or were the wallpaper,
not popular, but never targetted to the same
extent. From your description, your wife is
very much the former, who will never get it
because she lacks the empathy to realize what
impact she has on others. I suspect that because
it is clear from your post that she is _still_
like that - and I'm sorry to say that I also
suspect your marriage might face some long-term
trouble over such a basic divide. Whether you
can bridge that, I can't tell - but I do think
you very well might have to to have a happy
marriage.
-- Larry Smith
The main thing about the net sites is that they are full of the people who are being targetted by this wave of anti-geek reporting, so the web sites will have most of the debunking of the stories. Unfortunately, the web sites don't always reach the people we want to speak to; your average Joe Bloggs in the street, who sees the newspaper and TV news stories about how bad these games are for childrens' psyche.
What we need is for someone (or a small group of individuals) to volunteer to appear on some chat show and for the show to accept just to give another view of the story. Unfortunately, I can't see it happening...
--
TV and other media can help raise awareness of these important issues, but we do run the risk of this turning into a personal Gerry Springer show. Do you really want to be paraded in front of the world - just because someone is telling your story doesn't mean they are doing it for your good - dont be pawns in the next ratings war.
There ARE producers/programmes out there that will take on some of these storys because of thier value and truth but I dont think there are many.
hear hear.
the amazing bc
just another guy doing IT
webnaut, music junkie, holes-in-head
You are right. As an American (both a geek and a Christian) looking on our society, I see nothing but filth and decay. Now, European society has a lot of filth and decay as well, but they *do* at least respect learning--*real* learning (not just regurgitation of facts). So do asian societies. Starting in the mid-19th century, we moved sharply toward an atheist society. With the institution of public schooling things really went downhill. We decided that it was no longer the parents' job to raise children. We decided that the government should raise children instead. Unfortunately, the US has decayed morally into a garbage heap. It will take awhile for our economic and political clout to die away. Right now, there's still no country with more freedom than the US (give it time!). As soon as I see someplace better I'll go there. You can write to me at jason.clouse@nospam.furman.edu. Just remove the 'nospam.'
This doesn't mean they were not geeks. This is just anouther sign that they were messed up. I have known 4 people who were self proclamed Nazis. All were people that were severly mistreated at home and/or school. Eventually being beaten down your whole life leads you to identify with hate.
"My wife has gone so far as to threaten to turn me in for sharing "
I would already be well into the divorce process
if I were you.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
"unthinkable crime"
"UNTHINKABLE crime?"
This was NOT an UNTHINKABLE crime... nor was it
really "unprecedented".
Two individuals murdered 13 people and committed suicide.
The bizarre aspects of this crime all have to do
with setting and locale, and with the emotional state of the perpetrators.
There is a motive based on revenge against hostile
agression. Nothing unthinkable or even unusual about that.
If it had been a boarding house instead of a school, America would not be quite so up-in-arms about it.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I always thought it would be this way too,
but it turns out the suits are in control of the little 7.5cm * 20cm piece of paper that we get
every 2 weeks. This turns out not to be an insignificant factor in the IT/IS/DP industry.
So whatever. Why aren't We The Geeks occupying
the role of the suits? THEN we would own the
world pretty much.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
"ignoring what the more important issue of the posting is."
I'm not doing that. I'm trying to do my part to
bring some sanity.
There are a few (very few) complicating factors to
this crime which make it into hugely newsworthy
material.
Other than those few things, it's just not that
shocking, or even all that tragic. I don't even
get what's so unusual about it. People kill
other people every day in this country, I'd bet
even in Colorado.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
My manner of thinking, so you say, cannot be approved. Do you suppose I care? A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others! My manner of thinking stems straight from my considered reflections; it holds with my existence, with the way I am made. It is not in my power to alter it; and were it, I'd not do so. This manner of thinking you find fault with is my sole consolation in life; it alleviates all my sufferings in prison, it composes all my pleasures in the world outside, it is dearer to me than life itself. Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness... If then, as you tell me, they are willing to restore my liberty if I am willing to pay for it by the sacrifice of my principles or my tastes, we may bid one another eternal adieu, for rather than part with those, I would sacrifice a thousand lives and a thousand liberties, if I had them. These principles and these tastes, I am their fanatic adherent; and fanaticism in me is the product of the persecutions I have endured from my tyrants. The longer they continue their vexations, the deeper they root my principles in my heart, and I openly declare that no one need ever talk to me of liberty if it is offered to me only in return for their destruction.
Fuck Slashdot
Wow.
Are these the winds of change that I feel?
We are *now* among the most privileged of the disaffected. We are now capable of getting academic and professional successes that may go some way to salve our wounded self-images.
However, in the primary education years, one does not have the luxury of living in one's future. It's the time of life in which one is learning how to socialize, forming self-image, and at some point coping with burgeoning sexuality. There's no privilege in being a targetted geek at this point in life - at that point, you're pretty much getting as bad as most get without earning a TV movie.
Finally a sensible post...
Hypnotik, you can find the rest of world at NewsTrolls
To all:
Life can be hell. It is all up to you whether you perceive yourself as an eternal victim or pull yourself up by yourself and laugh at it. The greatest tool you have is your mind. Don't buy into the crap that you're damaged goods in need of saving, rehabilitating, etc. I don't agree with Katz using all of you to up his Q-factor to the rest of media. (BTW, you DO know, don't you, that his next book is called "Geek Voices"...how convenient that the Littleton Murders have provided him with the opportunity to be a self-proclaimed cultural intermediary between "geeks" and the rest of the world!). I don't agree that these kids were "geeks". Playing Doom and Quake and using the Internet makes you a geek??? You are only as fucked up as you convince yourself you are. There is a whole world out there beyond the lint in your navel.
--diva
diva Pasty Drone NewsTrolls, Inc.
I just wanted to present my view of the problem.
I've always been overweight and reasonably smart, so I suppose I was a target, but I've also been quite self-confident, so it never got really bad. Also, I live in Scandinavia, the school system of which is different from the US. In my view, there are two issues in US Schools that, if corrected, could solve many problems.
1. The Whole class.
In most European schools, students are always divided into groups of 25-30 that have most (but not all) of their classes together. There is still room for considerable choice of classes, but this system creates groups that are smaller, and that makes it less possible to pick on people. If there are only two jocks in a class group, there really isn't that much they can do, and the jocks etc have less of a common identity.
2. Sports
Sports, I suppose, are seen as extremely important in US schools. The problem is, that they create artificial cliques. The jocks don't *really* have any advantage over other students, they just think they do, because the PR and community spirit they create is seen as important. Once they get out of school, one in 50 or 100 of them will get sport scholarships, and one in 1000 will go on to the NFL etc. The rest will revert into normality, and the fun part of their life will be over. The artificial elite created by this sports system is counterproductive and unsound. This system is not only unsound and unfair to outcasts, but unfair to the jocks who are exalted for something that really isn't that important.
In Europe (Also known as Utopia ;-)) there aren't really any sports in school. The kids that want to do sports have to become members of clubs that have nothing to do with school. These clubs can be the local hockey team, which not only has a national league hockey team, but which also trains kids to someday take place in that team. So the sports all take place outside the school system, which prevents the creation of these artificial elites in the school.
As far as I'm concerned, these two issues are the two biggest reasons why US schools have problems right now. Creating a sound community out of 300 kids, all the same age, simply can't work. Students, as all people, are not comfortable with groups that large, so they create their own groups.
My two cents.
/frej
"Some of these reporters get it, some don't."
None of them get it, yourself included. Who didn't feel left out in high school. It wasn't just the geeks. Even the 'popular' kids had problems. No one is numb to this.
I'm tired of writers fixating on the geek. Writers like you, Jon, perpetuate the issues. Who really gives a fuck who is a geek and who isn't. Most anyone that you'd call a geek really doesn't even care. It's writers like you and the entire media that create the geek, that breath life into it's lungs, that have given him the dirty label he has.
And then two high school kids go out and try to blow up the school. A place where they felt foreign, unliked, whatever. Violence is never a way to deal with one's problems, I'm not ever going to say that what these kids did was right. But shit, the best you can fucking come up with is that they knew how to use the internet, that they used it to distribute information, and that they enjoyed Quake, Doom, and Duke'Nukem. What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
It means that you have as much a clue as anyone else. And I'm not speaking just to you Jon, you're not the only one to blame here. It's the entire media. Why don't you stop grasping at straws and get the real fucking issue for once.
Making generalizations based upon a video game and internet use stains everyone.
Until we start getting to the real roots of the problems, kids are still going to be the same way they've always been. Violence will be more pervasive. I doubt if we've seen the last of this. Lest we forget, misery loves company.
jp hackworth hackworth@newstrolls.com http://www.newstrolls.com
I'm somewhat agree with you, but I think the real issue here is the constant bashing that outcasts recieve during their High Schools/ Jr. H years. Outcats can be anybody : a different color, different race, different anything. It's just that slashdot represents geek comunity more then anything else.
P.S. I went to public Jr. High school that was the more hellish experience for me, I got picked on because I was white(yes those things exists in the inner cities), and for beeing different race (Russian.)
Thank god, I went to a small private school, that had very small budget(I paid only $5,000 a year) but had great teachers and students, who wanted to achive something in their future. I'm an engineering student now, because of that.
(And I have a great part-time job).
Something I want to touch on:
Never think you know everything, because you will always find something that you don't, sure you can learn coding in C++ from the books, and you can a get a hot job with that. But what happend in 10 years, when we industry switch to Java or ADA95(lol), the only reason you go to school is to be smarter, it won't learn anything by memorizing Periodic table, you just have to know how it works, same thing with Math, nobody will remember what they learned in Calculus, but the process of solving the problems, makes your brain to think differenly and logically, I consider this very important. Periodic tables, formulas, dates, and etc., can be all found in the books, but the process how it all works is what important.
Once a reporter has interviewed you, you lose control over your words. What you say and what gets printed can easily get misrepresented, misunderstood, or taken out of context. The printed/aired story becomes "Truth".
I've been interviewd twice - once as a teen by the local paper after I won an award to attend a science honors program at Columbia, and once as an adult regarding a subject area and program I worked on. The local interview was OK, although I didn't like how I was described ("flippant"? - I'd have to ask my parents for the clipping if they've kept it for 30 years!).
The "professional" interview quoted me at length, made me appear to be an authorized spokesman for a government program (I wasn't), and never told me I was being quoted vs. providing general background. After the story ran in an industry newsletter, I was almost fired at our customer's request, which would have permanently ended my employment in that industry! Fortunately, I was able to convince my bosses that I was taken advantage of, and my track record with them backed up my claims. (The "reporter" later called me to ask how I liked the story he had printed! Fortunately, yelling and cursing on a phone call in 1988 was not then a felony)
There is much to be said for annonymity over noteriety. If you DO get "lucky" enough to be interviewed, I'm sure John can offer specific advice; here's my 2 cents:
1. Get the topic and "slant" of the story before agreeing to be interviewed.
2. Make clear what is for quotation and what is not.
3. Present yourself as you want to hear/see/read about yourself.
4. Keep your own record of the interview and have someone else present (a parent or trusted adult if you are a minor).
5. You lose all control over your words the instant the interview ends.
6. The reporter is interested in getting a story and benefiting themselves, not in helping you. This is reality, not cynicism.
7. Be helpful without becoming vulnerable. Some of these people WANT to be educated and will listen to reasonable words.
Good Luck!
Being ankled on the playground, being beaten up, having your lunch money stolen, and generaly being ***afraid*** to be in school is a lot different from being lonely.
This sig is false.
I'm a senior in high school so the end of the tunnel is well within light however the abuse though the years has been ridiculous. Not only do the teachers look the other way when students such as myself are shoved across the hall into metal lockers with the perpretrators are laughing but they also tolerate nonstop verbal abuse from the popular kids during classes.
It is this double standard that allows us i.e. the geeks to be persecuted to the maximum while the instigators run free. Frequently the students who will be the most overt troublemakers will be the children of these condescending educators. I cannot count the number of times I have received back essays with the comments "overly verbose" or "do not try to impress me with words." It utterly confounds me why teachers who i'm sure have lower SAT and IQ scores than I do (1560 and 170 respectively) behave as if they are omniscient benefactors.
The sentiments expressed by the media which you have repeated in this article that cliques are destructive but "a part of growing up," a direct quote from todays Washington Post illustrates that school administrators are in a dreamworld detached from the realities of the public school system.
The reality is that physical and mental conditioning such as performed in the public schools is not dissimilar from Brave New World. Except in the public schools the Alpha Double-Pluses are placed below the Deltas. The problem is particularly acute in non-gifted classes where intellectualism is frowned upon and conformism is the goal.
Alienation by the intellectual elite is a natural occurance of poor management of violence.
This is absolutely correct. When I was in school -- not just high school, too -- I tended to get along with people of every group, without really "belonging" to any of them. There were a few cases where someone tried to pick on me, and fortunately there were some good people at the school -- even popular ones -- who would stand up for one another, at least when things started to get out of control. I can only recall a couple instances when there was an actual fight at that school.
But it is also important to realize that not everyone has this environment or the ability to pull it off. In my case it doubtless helped that I was a little taller than average, though I was so skinny that my weight (which is really more important) was less than average. It also doubtless helped that I went to a private high school (notice that none of these shootings have been at private schools) and no one was there who didn't want to be there -- or at least, not for long.
Probably another good influence was that that school did not even have a football team at that time. Since then they have added one, and doubled the tuition to be able to afford it.
Combined with the small size, almost every student could get on at least one of the teams, and that doubtless also helped. I don't know why anyone would think that sports is important, but when someone starts bullying, it does give an interested by-stander a chance to speak up, which they might not otherwise do. All the same, I have seen such simple phrases as "Hey, don't pick on him, he's cool," or "he's all right," work just as well.
I even recall one incident, where another student was waving his arms around in front of me, not actually making physical contact, but acting like he might, just to "get in my face", so to speak. I was fortunate in making a lucky grab, and got a grip on both his wrists. He was rather startled by this turn of events. I looked straight into his eyes, said one word, medium forcefully, "Enough," held his wrists and his gaze for about two seconds, then let him go and turned away. I was quite surprised by the change -- after that, this student not only stopped bothering me, but almost seemed obsequious at times. It should be noted, however, that he had never been a really bad guy, just a bit annoying.
A good sense of humour is another good strategy, but it takes time and work.
Sadly, not everyone is able to develop the necessary skills, and certainly not in time to avoid much of the harassment that occurs in high school. This is why it is important for students to stick up for one another. It is also important to try to befriend the people who are the bullies. Some of them are just jerks, but believe it or not, many of them are just seeking acceptance themselves. If you take the initiative to accept them, not necessarily as a friend, but as a person deserving of respect, they might surprise you -- but don't expect it to work on the first few tries. I believe much of the reason that I was somewhat accepted in high school is because I accepted everyone else, regardless of whether they were smart or stupid, big or small, or whatever. In retrospect, I wish that I had spoken up for others a bit more often, but at the time I didn't have enough self-confidence to do so, especially considering that I was pretty scrawny altogether. My track record wasn't too bad, but I wish it could have been better.
Mind, all the above concerns getting along with others while not conforming. I know absolutely nothing about being in the "in crowd".
I mentioned this elsewhere, but it bears repeating here as well: Some school administrators *do* "get it". Here in Union County, after the shootings, instead of banning trenchcoats or something equally silly, at least one school responded by getting representatives of various social groups within the school to talk to each other. Now *that* is the right tactic to deal with this issue.
Alan R. Light
Monroe, N. C.
I hear you there. My wife never completed high school and the media has her completely fooled. :)
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
Funny how education can open your eyes. That or just hanging out on slashdot
********************************************
You know, just like alot of you my school years up until university were utter hell. I can't begin to describe the overwhelming emotions of fear, anger, hurt and bitterness that consume me when I think back on them. I learned to harden myself and I pushed all of those emotions down deep. It never affected me and I didn't think it would because, like I told everyone "I don't care what people think about me." After such a long time of keeping that burden pushed down inside of me I thought nothing of it.
However, after reading all of the postings and the hellmouth articles it finally started to hit me. Those emotions finally rose up and I can honestly say I shed a few tears. In post after post I found people I could finally relate to and who were feeling what I was/had felt. Call it geek therapy, or whatever, but it was nice to not feel like an outcast.
The part that hurt the most is that my wife and I don't see eye to eye on this issue. She bought into the media hype and fanatacism and not only tries to justify it but defends it too. So I printed out the two articles and some of the comments and took them home for her to read. I really needed her to understand. First of all I had to almost force her to read it, secondly she got only past the first page and a half and said that that was too much reading for her for one day. I felt like saying "What not enough pictures for you?" She promised to read more of it later, but I doubt that she will. That made me feel even worse.
I guess that's what you get when Mr.Geek marries Ms.Popularity.
Anyone have their familiy not get it or actually turn on you for telling them the truth?
********************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
I sit here reading the posts, remembering the pain I went through in High School. I still go through it to this day. Am I going to bore you with yet another account of it? No. I'm going to make you think about this whole situation.
This is wrong. The amount of media attention given to this is astounding. Every day there are gang wars in cities across the country. Kids in the ghetto are being shot everyday, and they maybe get 30 secs on the news. Nobody seems to care. Just because they are poor, or black, or asian, or mexican, or gay, they don't get the same attention as upper white class kids in Colorado did.
Think about it for a second.
15 teenagers lost their lives to stupidity, yes, this is horribly tragic. But how many kids lose their lives each day to alcohol, gangs, drugs? Why don't we hear about them for days on end?
Stop and think about Bosnia and Serbia. This is going on every day there. Somebody's kid, father, mother, brother is dying. Do we hear about it?
America has it so good, and many here don't even realize it. If you hadn't been born in America, there is a very real chance that you wouldn't be able to post to Slashdot, because you wouldn't have a computer, or the right to post what you thought. In some countries, you can be persecuted (I don't mean just discrimated against either, I'm talking being forced to leave your home, or shot even) for the color of your skin or what religion you follow. Why isn't this on the news for hours upon hours at a time?
I'm tired of day after day of Littleton stories and half-assed reporting. I'm sick of memorial services. Where is the rest of the world? What about them? This is the real tragedy.
(I was only an egg, but then I cracked)
An inanimate object has no inherant value. It is only worth what it is used for. If its purpose is evil, "take it out."
--
Four years in jail
No Trial, No Bail
*** FREE KEVIN ***
New worlds are not born in the vacuum of abstract
ideas, but in the fight for daily bread --Rudolf Rocke
If the thumbtacks are being used to hurt people, they must be destroyed. My old high school rule book has it in there somewhere.... :)
Same with duct tape, if it is being used for evil, it is evil and must be destroyed
--
Four years in jail
No Trial, No Bail
*** FREE KEVIN ***
New worlds are not born in the vacuum of abstract
ideas, but in the fight for daily bread --Rudolf Rocke
They just make it really fucking easy.
-lx
The 'Hellmouth' article may be one of the defining moments in the history of this website. I've seen it referenced on a 2nd-Amendment-related mailing list I'm on and also sent to me (pirated) by a coworker. If the media are really trolling in here for material, it may not be long before Slashdot is a household word.
Whether this is a good thing or not is entirely another debate.
Slashdot: Liberal News for Nerds. Liberal Stuff that Matters.
I'll start this by saying that I'm not a member of the NRA. I don't own a gun, but probably will in the future -- assuming that my right to do so isn't taken away....and it's looking more and more like it will be.
You're excused for your naivate . The problem with that argument is that we DON'T LIVE IN a "sane and peacfull society". We live in a society that has crime, that has problems, and that instead of a true democracy has a government of officials over us. For the most part they're good folk....
Let's not forget that our founding fathers gave us the RIGHT to bear arms. Yes. they were thinking of personal survival, the right to hunt, and the right to have sport.
These were people who knew a thing or two about fighting for what you believe in. They designed their army around common citizens helping the national defense -- the militia. I'm not talking about the gun-toting whackos you saw portrayed on the news after the Waco incident and the Oklahoma City bombing, I'm talking about people like you and me who were trained in how to defend their country. The National Guard would be the closest thing that we have today.
But our founding fathers were ALSO people who knew a thing or two about governmental tyrrany. They made a very clear statement that when the government no longer governs "of the people, by the people, and FOR the people," that it was the citizenry's collective responsibility to change the status quo. If the people governing above you have guns, you need them as well.
If you can't fight for your rights as a last resort, what rights do you really have?
Scott
Lets not forget that this is about the exclusion of many groups, not just geeks and nerds. Additionally, this is not a problem unique to young people - do not forget the postal workers, investment brokers and others that have shot up their workplaces.
We understand how they feel because of who we are, but we must remember that we are probably the most privileged of the disaffected. With that comes some added responsibility.
Jake.
The Steampunk Workshop
One thing that it seems "visitors" may be taking away from all this on Slashdot is the idea that the connection works both ways: Just because people can understand what might drive those kids to commit mass murder and might even admit to having those feelings themselves does not mean that they're defending what was done or saying that murder is ok.
Just like I could say I respect Hitler's leadership abilities without being a Nazi or that I can understand why immigrant Irish workers and sharecroppers hated blacks without being a racist, I can say that I understand what might drive those kids to kill without having a trace of the urge myself. These were not normal people. As many people have pointed out, they were in many ways like us, but they were not us.
Many people here may spend countless hours looking at the pentagrams id shows us, but the vast majority of these people don't worship the devil. These kids, however, had the racist feelings to stand behind their swastikas and the guns to back up those feelings.
As one of the emails to Katz showed, some people think we're defending what was done or saying that it's understandable. It's not. It's the emotion behind the actions that's understandable. I would hate for visitors to Slashdot to think that we all think what was done was somehow justified.
This resonates for me.
Adolescence sucks for pretty much everyone at one time or another. Some people have an easier time of it than others.
From the perspective of 10 yers I realize that I wrote a lot of people off in highschool because they happened to keep company with certain egregious assholes.
At the time I may have justified this prejudice on my part by telling myself that if these people deserved my harsh judgement because they were sanctioning these assholes by associating with them. What I realize now is that I spent time in the company of some real assholes too.
It's really tough having to live through all the persecution, and I can really relate and I feel sympathy for every one else who had to suffer the same. It's easy to blame the schools, because they turned their backs, looked the other way, were understaffed, and were too jaded to care. It's not that they didn't care, actually, but that there were too many issues, too many problems, and no real solutions for them to do anything but give up.
I don't want to justify their behavior in creating this kind of situation, but I would like to explain some of the their reasoning in all this.
At least in my schools, there were overcrowded classrooms, aged and retiring teachers who just didn't have the energy or youth to deal with us, and and not enough funds to do anything they would have liked. In order to handle and deal with a class, conformity was stressed over performance, individuality, or creativeness. How could a teacher handle 20 wildly independent, unique, creative, inquisitive students? Whether intentional or not, they managed to convey to us the idea of conforming, of not rocking the boat. They were happy and excited whenever one of us showed initiative or intelligence, but they did not actively try to push us towards that goal.
Kids picked up really quick; they became the enforcers of the norm, and if you were different of race, of behavior, of attitude, of anything, they'd target you for this.
This was a school system which actively recruited for GATE students, but didn't have the resources to actually do anything with/for us once we were identified. They actually used us to gain more funding for stuff such as books, repairs, maintanence, etc. They didn't have the training or resources to manage a handful of gifted students, so we were left to our own devices, and then resented for it by all the other children.
This goes on all the way up to high school, in which I finally figured out how to look cool, how to act cool, how to be cool. I also happened to gain a foot in height and 40 pounds of bulk, so I guess people didn't figure I was such an easy target either.
Something does need to be done to change the system. We live in a society that does reward innovative unique and creative people, but the system we use to train and manage the kids tries to destroy and contain these things because they cause too much trouble.
I was talking to my dad about this, and he mentioned that even private schools have this fascist need to maintain conformity, except that they raise the bar and expectations much higher than in our public school. Are there any real solutions available?
AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
" Reading Yesterday's article helped me realize how absolutely lucky I was my last two years in H.S. ...in our school it was the "in crowd," e.g. the "snooty rich snobs" who were marginalized. In fact, the easiest way to join the margins wasn't by being different -- it was by trying too hard to be like the "Snobs". They existed in their little world, we existed in ours -- but "we" were 75%
of the student body, including the overwhelming majority of the athletes and 90% of the cheerleaders, valedictorians, etc.
What makes this all the more special in reflection is that I come from a city high school that had 3,000 plus students, with a perhaps 35-40% minority student body. Talking to a few of my friends at a recent class re-union, I was surprised that some of
them never felt like part of the crowd back in school -- until I asked them if they had ever felt left out. Jaws dropped as they realized just how good it had been. The main theme in the follow up conversations I had with them were about normal teen insecurities, something like "you're right, we really did ALL belong. I just wanted to be more like...." (fill in the blank with the appropriate 'popular' person or group)"
O.K., so we were lucky. Big deal, right? No, the big deal is WHY IT WAS THIS WAY.
The difference between my HS and many of the others was that about two dozen young people of all economic backgrounds, colors and popularity levels decided to MAKE A DIFFERENCE by speaking out for friendship, openness, and diversity from the time they were in the ninth grade, then sticking to it. This was in contrast to the going average in the a community -- racially driven riots a couple times of year every other Sr. High school for several years running.
So who were these two dozen or so people? We're talking about folks like the head cheerleader, starting quarterback, middle linebacker, basketball center, student body president, a couple of the more popular members of the choir, a pretty good H.S. rock band and even even the occasional "shy-but-somehow-trying-to- stay-involved" odd ducks like me.
Led by a school administration that taught them that they could make a positive difference and then mentoring them in how to get it done. I find myself wondering if instead of hearing positive values like this, what today's youth are hearing is the echoing and empty sound of silence."
--end of e-mail--
I would be interested in hearing from /. readers, etc. regarding both the pain and the positives so that I can make the information available via the 'Net. Please feel free to respond.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Having had sundry run-ins with journos myself and friends who work in the media who have told me of how things are done in journalism, I can assure you whatever you say will certainly be mis-represented. You are on a hiding-to-nothing talking to the press on this issue and will be represented as some kind of wierd deviant. Watch and you will see it come to pass.
Johnny
However, quite a few 'geeks' were / are being abused at school and it should be good to have a site they can visit.
I smashed into one coming off the interstate in a heavily populated area of Connecticut!
and its luck the thing merely pushed the front end in a foot instead of going through the windshield
Deer are not people and the same rules do not apply
Just another perl hacker in Bangkok
"The ones that can read and write may have gone into journalism, but the rest are in law enforcement"
And where to you think lawyers, especially trial lawyers, come from.
Those guys just Loved high school.
Just another perl hacker in Bangkok
I don't care about them,,, they lost it
What's good is that things will change for the better because of this.
If less people have to go through what I did is a Good Thing
Let's keep an eyeball on change for the better.
Just another perl hacker in Bangkok
I went through differentials in two days with a couple of teach yourself books and some motivation.
Its not that hard if you concentrate on the problem solving aspects and forget about Memorizing all those silly formulas for the Exams
Just another perl hacker in Bangkok
So I am European. Do I want to take your guns away? Hell, no. If you want to collect guns that's cool, whatever works for you.
The people who worry and who I assume worry you, are your fellow Americans who don't trust you to handle your guns and think there should be something like gun control.
That's a bummer, because from what you wrote I am sure you are a very mature, stable and likable character.
What I don't understand is why the NRA is not lobbying for a "gun control" that gives the current gun owners control. Instead they appear of being permanently in the defensive.
In my country you can buy all sorts of guns for sport and hunting, and you can keep them at home with ammunition. As you were pointing out Europe's history is violent, so there are a lot of traditional sport shooting clubs. The guys in these clubs make sure no psychos are admitted and register the guns. So everybody's happy: The guys who want to have guns and the rest who know that somebody is accountable for keeping track of them.
> We oppose federal registration because it can
;-)
...
...
> only be used as a tool for confiscation in the
> future.
The distrust of many Americans in their own government always astounds me
I am not saying that it may not deserve it
Anyway, the matter seems to boil down to trust.
Americans who believe in federal gun control don't seem to trust that the guns in their fellow American hands are always handled responsibly.
You and presumably many NRA members in turn don't trust the federal administration.
So why letting any government organization handling this kind of data? It's just an idea, but why doesn't the NRA keep track of guns on a voluntary basis? The NRA could put the data in a thouroughly encrypted database at a secret location. Then if the FBI looks for a weapon used in a crime the NRA can check if such a weapon is reported as missing. This way the NRA could demonstrate its commitment to fight gun abuse and limite the FBI's obsession to control your personal data by sending a strong signal that responsible citicens can handle this themselves.
Just my 2 cents
What do you think about guns with a build in finger-print scanner in the trigger, so that only the rightfull owner can fire them? This kind of technology was discussed in a magazine I once read to solve the problem of policemen getten shot with their own weapon by criminals who - while opposing arrest - managed to get a hold of the policeman's gun.
This technology could at least solve the shooting accident problem in the US e.g. kids playing with Daddy's gun.
I am not a Sociologist nor Ethnologist i.e. I am not a scientist specifically trained to analyse an alien culture. But I am a scientist (Phycisist) from Germany and part of my motivation to come here is to understand the American culture.
The most scary thing I observe in the mainstream culture is a disdain for intelligence: "Dumb is good!" a slogan I saw in the TV movie "Brave new world" could be almost the banner for mainstream (white) America (may be a little bit different for the black American culture). I talked to a white American psychologist about it (a professor of mine at business school) and he told me he perceives a teen attitude that equates "being smart with being uncool". What a weird culture. In Europe being a university student means to be someone special, somebody with the potential to outstanding intelectual achievment, somebody who favors scientific truth over a big paycheck. Copmpare this to the frat boy as student role model.
I was a geek as kid. And I was an oddball but I had some respect from my peers, because I didn't suck up to the teachers, and I helped them out when I could. I don't know how many geeks had experiences like this in the US. This good geek school experience seems to me rather the rule than the exeption in my country. I hated school just because I wasn't free to do with my time what i wanted.
My fiancée is kind of an American geek girl who went through school by escaping into permanently reading SF. She hated Junior High and High School, and I think it did some severe damage to her. If we have children we don't want them to go through the American non-academic school system.
I try hard to figure out what is going on in this culture and why it is so different from Europe. Since I haven't gone through the US school system I don't know what it is from the inside but it seems to me to be a prime problem of the American society. I am aware that this is certainly no new insight, but it is concerning to see that nothing seems to be done about it. I remember that Bush senior put it on the agenda when he ran for presidency. I know that Steven Jobs, in an interview I once read, was delighted about the idea of organizing public schools privately, but I don't think he had the time to follow up on this.
In Europe it is good common political practice to compare your own national society with other Western countries in order to learn how to improve. That is something completely missing in the US (political) culture. Why invent yourself if you can copy good practices? The open source movement showed that this works for all sorts of matters. Nevertheless the US are just roasting in their own juice. The US society might figure out something the hard way, but it will produce a lot of unhappy American geeks along the way (and some dead students).
Welcome to America.. Our school didn't even respond to bomb threats that were phoned in..
Some one set off a small smoke bomb in the bathroom, they went crazy on that one..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Well since I listen to alot of punk and one of my favorite bands had this to say in their songs.
"Fuck 'em. I choose to take my stand against what I feel is wrong in this land"-Crass (I forgot the song name, I think someone stole my crass cd's last month).
But I just wanted to share that line with you guys, becuase I know I feel that way.
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Sorry, just trying for some humor there..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Well infact, the statement it self basical disproves it's whole meaning. I.E. No one is human and Cannibals don't exsist becuase they can not eat humans becuase they don't exsist. It's a confusing and mind boggling statement.. Like my nick name in real life does to your mind.
LSD fucks w/ your mind and I like to do that too, becuase it makes people think.
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
The only thing I use the television for is entertainment and education. I barely watch the news becuase the stupid things that they say. Like today 2 guys were shot at in their home, ok I watched it (the news) for a minute this morning, but here was said, hopefully I won't screw up this qoute, "Police are currently searching for 3 males wearing face masks"... That is the qoute.. Ok.. Um.. Goto the Swiss Mountians maybe they will find them there.. You have plenty to choose from.. Oh Oh Oh.. The other qoute was "After finding the video tape last night, police now know this morning that the shooters commited suicide." Ok, who didn't know they did this? Oh well, like I said I watch tv to entertainment and education, education would have to be the PBS show NOVA and entertainment would be British Comedy and the Simpons.
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
What happened in Sep? I just start on here like a month ago, but known about it(/.) for ages.
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Has anyone checked out any of the media sites, I haven't seen anything new, regarding the mention of us. Oh well..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Wow there are still Full Service gas stations out there?
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I think there must be a longer one somewhere..But at least you said it.. Heheh.. Let the threading begin. We will make the server become better and better and better and so on..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Heh. Those 300-400 some people who have JonKatz gagged didn't get to hear of this in any direct fashion... this may be the biggest thing to ever hit Slashdot (I wouldn't know, I only got here a few months ago), and they missed it the first time around.
Another good argument for not hitting that "go-away" button without some serious thought beforehand.
It is really important that the root causes are flushed out. Maybe this round of media coverage will do it, maybe not. But it is _supremely_ important that any geek that gives a testimonial protect him or herself. This is a serious issue that should not be underestimated.
I find it odd that journals, those who are trained to report objectively, could use a course or two in critical thinking.
I suspect that if you walk into your control room and ask, you'll find some purebred geeks with horror stories of their own. Just a thought.
NPR can get pretty off base, but it's the outlet where slashdot folks are most likely to get an interviewer with some native understanding. TV's pretty hopeless -- nearly all of them were alphas in high school and will regard any empathy with the shooters as evidence of perversion. Newspapers are random, you can find some geeks and insightful and fair folks, and a lot of jerks.
Except that the people that must be made to understand mostly rely on TV news for their information. Catch-22.
Laura
Panic gives them something to fill up the airtime. Sense does not. Panic gives them frightened people to watch TV and buy magazines. Whether you think it's good -- no more secrets -- or bad -- no more judgement, the media these days is just the same as the internet, passing on every rumor or gory photo. When they start canting about 'public good' it's an excuse for why they put someone's sex life or a kid's shot up body on the cover or the promo, because they still like to pretend they are different and better than the 'net.
What do you think sells a broadcast, a newspaper? Quiet little editorials on tolerance, or jittery/darkened shots of people in noserings with 'More Littletons?' blazoned above?
Laura
That in the midst of all the kids being stripsearched for wearing black and expelled for not parroting back group think, concerts being cancelled and movies being blamed, not ONE, not ONE case of a school instituting an zero tolerance for bullying. Not even a prominent voice. Just our scream of anguish -- and for all it is loud to us, it is barely heard in the wider society, which sees only flowers, sorrow and comprehension of thirteen and not of two.
Oh, there's the occasional article discussing cliques, but they are almost invariably wrapped up by quotes from smug little experts going 'oh, it's all a part of growing up, it's *good* for them'. Here, shall I show you the scar on my head from the time (one among hundreds) that someone tripped me on the way to my seat and I smashed my head against the corner of the desk? Go on, tell me how good it was for me. Or perhaps we'll seat you, Mr. Expert, in a room with 25 other people and have them whisper abuse and throw things at you for an hour a day. Oh, and you can't skip, or we'll arrest you. Go on, tell me how it improves your self esteem.
Fuckers. And they wonder why we feel alienated from the majority.
Laura
Over the past few days, people here on
Do you really think that the primary reason for the ostracism of these two kids was because they were especially intelligent or geeky? How many geeks do you know of who are car theives? How many Nazi geeks do you know of? Even if you knew a car-stealing-racist-Nazi-geek, do you think you would be especially compassionate towards them? I try to be compassionate to everyone, but for kids such as these, I don't think I could even muster that. There had been reports of these kids walking down halls yelling "nigger" at any black person they saw. If I was faced with this (I am black), I have little doubt that I would be downright hostile towards them. I was ridiculed for many things back in highschool, but whenever someone insulted me because of my race, I could always count on 99 percent of the rest of the school to stand behind me in my defense. Although the students of Columebine HS probably regret it now, I'll bet that many of them acted similarly.
I seriously doubt that these kids were really geeks. I find it pretty odd that so many of you here consider them as such merely because they played Doom and had a home page on AOL; even my mom has played a few video games and is working on a homepage on AOL -- of course her page isn't likely to be filled with death threats, pentagrams, and/or swasticas. So many people here have objected to the fact that the schools are now (after the killing) "cracking down" on geeks because they think they may have homicidal/suicidal tendencies. I'm sure I don't have to remind any of you here, but geeks tend to have FAR more self resect than that. Despite the ridicule geeks receive daily, most geeks I know carry a huge amount of dignity with them; some are even a little egotistical. As far as I can tell, these killers hated both themselves and everyone around them. A person who is confident in their ability to eventually succeed isn't going to shoot up their schoolmates and kill themselves. If you want the schools (both the administration and other students) to stop scapegoating geeks, you should emphatically remind them that geeks have absolutely NOTHING in common with someone who is capable of amassing a stockpile of weapons, walking into a crowded room, and shooting anyone present.
These two killers have been described by other students as being "freaks." Only the media has tried to portray them as "geeks." Which account do you believe?
I'm lucky enough not to be attending "public school" in the states.. I currently go to a DODDS school.. and when I was in the states for 7-9th grade school wasn't all that good, in fact I hated school. Kids used to pick on me, make fun of me, call me names, etc, just because I was a little smarter then they were, I was (and still am) a little on the heavy side, I brought thick books to school and read them, and I didn't try to be "Mr. Popular" or All Star or the such. I used to get so mad, I would come home and just lash out at my family when they made me a little angry. When I finaly told an administrator about some of the stuff, he called in one of the students and I got labeled as a "Tattle Tale." When my parents tried to do something about that anger, I thought about committing suicide, but I didn't because I realized what I had going for me (I knew alot of VB and stuff). I'm was glad that I moved out of that District. Over here it is not as bad but there have been times that people have said something. either about my
Now if these kids were really Geeks do you think that they would have done this just because they were teased?? Is killing and commiting suicide when you are a geek (by the /. def not the media's) and have all that you know going for you later in life really posssible?? or is it that they were not geeks and had some serious problems (not playing Video games either, although that and TV might have contributed to it)??
I don't know what it would be like to be in the states right now with all that is going on. It's sorta like the Witch Hunts in the Puritan's Time, except their hunting people that are smart and a little different then the main stream crowd. I don't know what kinda effect this is going to have on me in my later life, but right now all I see is that all these kids whose goal is to be popular or pretty/handsome are goin to be flipping burgers at McDonalds or sweeping floors while I'm off making 40k+ a year programming or designing something electronic. I think this fact is what has brought me this far in life.
Kenny /dev/null
---
These are my comments and not that of anyone I have come in contact with, If you do not like them then send all flames to
We asked for it, but do we really want this? I would say yes. I have quite a distaste for the media, especially lately considering I'm in Denver and the media frenzy has hurt so many out there (hang in there). I have a friend who produces for one of the big three TV stations out here, I would hope she see the truth in this matter, not what her organization has been spindoctering to the public.
EVERYONE feels lonely, alienated, picked on, and an outcast in high school. With the POSSIBLE exception of the captian of the football team and the prom queen. It's part natural teenage emotion, and partially just the general cruelty that kids at that age treat each other with.
..., in high school, because I sure didn't. I had a great time in high school. Sure, I wasn't the most popular kid in high school, but I still had a great time with my friends (and my bong... heh heh heh) I dated a fair number of girls, all of them attractive, some even "popular," one of which I'm still dating and in love with after almost 2 years together. I took computer classes, I programmed in my spare time, I looked at MAD porn on the internet, did all these "geek"-like things. I managed to be myself in high school, not worry about fitting in (even though I seem to have a natural ability to), and not worry about being the most popular kid in school. I had a great time in high school.
Ummm... or not. In high school (which ended last year) I was a crossbreed geek/druggie/hippie type. I don't agree with you that everybody feels alienated,
Of course, I can definately understand how much it would suck to be fat, ugly, acne-covered, whatever, in high school, because I saw these kids get picked on a lot. I made an effort not to pick on these kids (except the ones who I was friends with, I picked on these kids constantly, but they knew I was just kidding around.) If I saw one of the popular kids picking on one of the unpopular kids, I'd try to step in and do something about it. Once one of the most popular members on the football team was harassing a nerdy freshman coming out of the library (I was a junior at this point). I stepped in and told him to leave the kid alone. He assaulted me, and I beat the living PISS out of him. I broke his nose and bruised 3 of his ribs. Once the story got the administration, I was actually PRAISED by my housemaster. (the other kid attacked me so I was able to play it off as self defense.)
To all those people who are geeks in high school and feel unpopular, picked on, whatever, I have advice for you: Don't worry about being popular, don't worry about being accepted. Just do your own thing, let the popular kids know you couldn't give a shit about their opinion of you, and they'll start to respect you. Because the popular kids are really just as insecure as you, but for some reason they are accepted by everybody else. They really wish they could do their own thing and not act like everybody else, but are too chicken to do it, and as a result feel a need to persecute those who have the guts to be independant. I know, I was friends with many of these people in high school, and this is exactly how their minds work. Once you show them that you can stand up to their persecution, they'll stop, and begin to respect you.
"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
You know what's really really scary about this whole thing?
In the past week now, a LOT of bomb threats have been made at schools, offices, and other. This morning, the Medical Mutual Building in downtown Cleveland was evacuated because of a bomb threat.
The Spring Mosh '99 concert was cancelled in Streetsboro because of a bomb threat called in at the middle school.
Schools have been closed or evacuated, and people are scared. And this is just within a 50 mile radius of my home, if that. Every day, since the shooting, I have heard of at least one or two bomb threats at various schools or offices.
And it's only getting worse, as evidenced by the evactuation of the Medical Mutual building this morning. What kind of sick little bastards would do this? I mean, GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.
Is our society really THIS fucked up?
-RISCy Business | Head Unix Guru, Unicent Telecom
your company here.
shelby != ford
This is going to be a interesting week.
:)
The first week after the Littleton killings, we were blasted with all the standard cut and paste tragedy news in the mainstream media.. All the "the community is coming together" crap that always happens after a tragedy such as shit. But this is different. This really struck a nerve in the geek population, because many of us relate to the killers. As sick as I am sure it makes us all feel, its true. There is a little bit of them in a damn large population of us. We are doing someting about it, as a community, we _have_ come together.
Week one was everyone putting the peices together. I was watching it on several dozen mailling lists I administrate. I was actually waiting for someting along the lines of what was going on there to happen here on Slashdot. It has, and the Slashdot effect in its own little way is taking effect, but not on someone's website today, but alot of people's minds. A place were we are all happy to see the load averages cranking up.
"Thinking about these things can't help but make you smarter." -- Jello B.
It applies, big time. Although, this goes even farther. Jon is right, we should be carful what we ask for. Actually, scratch that. We would be _aware_ of what we ask for, and be ready for it when it comes.
On the Internet (as Jon put it at some point), a story rides is its own merit. This one has some real issues behind it, people are intrested/scarred/concerned/effected.. The action here WILL have an effect. Even if it is just to show some of the people truly effected by this that they are not alone.
As I see it, no matter what happens here, we win. As a community. The role the Internet has teken in this... is good.
...
. "The future masters of technology will have to be lighthearted and
...
. "The future masters of technology will have to be lighthearted and
. intelligent. The machine easily m
.. because in my school, it always seemed to me that only a small handful of kids, less than 5% of them, were getting physically assaulted on an almost daily basis.
.. heck, if it was just name-calling, school would have been a breeze for me. It wasn't. I was hit and beaten on a near-daily basis for years on end. As far as I could tell, this was not happening to anywhere near the majority of my peers.
You need to get over this idea that we are just talking about "natural teenage feelings of being an outcast" and "a bit of teasing". We are talking about all-out abuse, physical violent crimes that these kids are victims of. The press seems to say a lot "these kids were teased", "these kids were called name"
"I hated school just because I wasn't free to do with my time what I wanted"
Strangely, although I hated school, once I left I began to think to myself that one of the few things I *liked* about school was that I was free to do with my time what I wanted. When I was a student at University (working part-time) I had nearly no free time. Now that I'm working full-time I have almost no free time. But back at school I seemed to have all the time in the world .. the workload was light and easy, the "workday" was five hours; I often lazed away many an afternoon in the sun, or drawing, or programming.
BTW I grew up in "urban white" South Africa; we also for some reason have this odd cultural view that dumb is good and that if you're smart you're some sort of freak.
You have a great point - the main thing is to have fun. I was a very serious person at school (probably largely due to the fact that I'm a depressive), but one of my big regrets is that I just did not make enough of an attempt to just go out and have fun. Sure, it isn't easy to do this in the first place if you're not popular -- but I did have some attitude problems, at least in the sense that I was very anti-superficial (anything vaguely superficial I hated, curiously this stopped in University at the exact same time I started on anti-depressants, but thats another story); I was also somewhat "anti-people". I also made a point of not getting too involved with sport, which was DUMB of me. Sport can be an excellent mindless way to let loose, have fun and "bond" with peers.
I was in too much of a hurry to grow up - mainly because I hated school.
I suspect that teachers, and in fact the school system, do NOT help out in this regard. I think that the system serves to perpetuate cliched stereotypes, probably not intentionally. If a kid starts showing intelligence, he is from a very early age "singled out" by the teachers and treated differently -- obviously his peers will start seeing him differently if he is treated differently, and thus begins the "I don't seem to fit in" snowball. Intelligent kids seem to be pushed into cliched "roles" - things like "nerdy kids dont need/want social skills", "nerdy kids don't belong on the sportsfield", etc etc. Nerdy kids aren't encouraged to do many of the things that a kid needs to do. ALL kids should be encouraged to actively participate, learn social skills, play sports (not necessarily for the school but just for fun) etc. I learnt at University how much fun it is playing sports with peers, even though I'm crap at it.
Dang, those wasted years.
There's a growing trend, as the internet and/or AOL becomes a popular place for kids to hang out, for computers to not just be for the 'geeks' anymore. Although most of these people may not have the same knowledge I have, it's a start. If this someday leads to the geeks being more accepted because of their skills I'm not sure, but it's a start.
How does this all fit into the grand scheme of things? The media will NEVER have it right, I think that's the bottom line. A good example (non computer related though) is that a video rental store opened up in my home town (a fairly small city of 26,000 in New Hampshire) that happened to rent out adult videos. Some people threw a fit over this, and some students from a private school that was right across the street from the store spoke out against it. Not that they cared, but it was worth some extra credit or something along those lines. The teachers all made them do it basicaly, and they said hey what the hell if it gets me on the teachers good side. I am close friends with someone who was a student there while it was going on.
What I'm saying is the media will get some tool student to tell them what they want to hear. Does this mean all media? Of course not, but enough to further mislead all the adults out there. To tell them to lock their kids up in their rooms and not let them use the computer because it's the devil incarnate. I'd love to give the media my point of view but I don't think it would change anything, or at worst they'd twist my words all around.
At one time I thought being a teenager was just a pain in the ass. I couldn't wait to get out of school, but as I look ahead of me I see 2 more years of highschool and 4 of college that I've got to deal with - I just try and take things as they come now. But the bottom line about school is that at least 99.9% of students (and I'm not exadurating, at LEAST that many) don't like school. If you ship someone off to what is basicaly a prison to them for the first 20 years of their lives you're bound to have someone act out, in whatever way they can think of. Sometimes that acting out goes way too far, and thats when we get the Columbine situation. Everyone feels neglected at one point in their life so that's not the issue. Hell if so many people were in this 'Trench Coat Mafia' they had each other to socialize with.
The issue is if we look back in history people longed to go to school. Kids just don't give a damn anymore, once they hit middleschool they think they know everything they need to know. I should know, I thought I knew everything I needed to know and to be honest right now I think I probably know everything I need to know. With 2 more years of English, Science, History, and Math ahead of me that is so usefull all my elders have forgot it already? If everyone forgets their Highschool math courses why are we learning it? I want to do something in computer science as an adult - I know that now - but I have to learn 6 more years of proper etiquet when writing a letter? I have to memorize the periodic table for what? This is the frustration people get with school, the social groups is just the icing on the cake.
- tred
So, while geeks seem to be the target of the recent witch-hunt in schools around the country, and we are right to feel indignant, remember that we do NOT corner the market on alienation.
No sig.
Jon & Rob-
Thank you for providing a forum for all points of view. Your reporting and summations are helping bring about a realization in the rest of the world that their might just be more to these kids than Doom and Quake. You might just have opened some eyes and engendered some understanding.
So how does it feel to change the world, just a little bit?
Dave
-- "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." - R.A.H.
yes
Well I have been around /. for a while and frankly I am getting sick of gun control threads. I think most of us can agree that something needs to be done but none of us can agree as to what or how much. So lets just agree to disagree. I like reading Katz' stuff but every time he's posted something about Littleton the freak and fanatics on both sides of the gun issue come out of the woodwork. Guns are were the tools of something that started somewhere else, if you people want to discuss why this happened lets discuss it, but if you wanted to talk about why a house fell down would you talk about what hammer was used to build it ? So SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT GUNS ALLREADY !!! If you want to discuss guns there are plenty of newsgroups you can get into mighty fine debates on, in fact the last couple of Katz' pieces were about the effect this is having to children for God's sake, and I have seen very few responses that covered what the article was actually talking about. Where are the moderators ? I won't filter Katz because while I might not agree with his opinion I at least can be inspired to think about things from a different direction.
_ ________
To Gun Control Advocates: You are going to change no-ones opinion here, you haven't yet, and you won't
To Anti-Gun Cotrol Advocates: Same to you, these other folks are not going to change their minds no matter how much you scream about the Second Amendment, or self defense, or hunting
To Both Sides: SHUT THE HELL UP WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT ANYMORE neither side is winning, gaining points, or changing minds so give it a rest.
_______________________________________________
Can We trust the future - Flesh99
Schools and teachers are going to be super-sensitive to this issue right now, if for no other reason than that they're going to be scared shitless of law suits.
The bad side of this is what's already been reported - kids getting suspended for saying thay understand what happened, or for being associated with any of the crap the media has brought up (clothes, games, etc).
The good side is that now is the time to speak up against teen cruelty and abuse as school. Play to your teacher's fears; tell them that if they don't crack down on abuse at school that you're worried the same thing could happen. Obviously they should already be doing this, but NOW is the time to address it if they're not. If you get blown off, then tell your parents about the teacher's response...
(Not meant as ad-hominem, but to invoke the Clinton campaign phrase).
Right, so everyone in school is maladjusted, but as soon as they leave school they've gotten a life? Sure sounds like the structure of school is to blame.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Just a couple of things...
... but who stormed the beach at Normandy?
Bell was obviously an American, as was Edison.
Obviously? I don't think so. Bell was Scottish and lived in London, and while Edison spent much of his adult life in Detroit he was actually born in Canada.
Early computers were just an evolution of a chinese invention.
It sounds like you're referring to the abacus, but modern digital computers aren't really directly descended from the abacus. They are pretty much directly descended from work done by Charles Babbage, an 18th century English mathematician.
There were lots of countries represented at Normandy, including the USA.
-- "I believe the human being and the fish can coexist peacefully." - George W. Bush, 29 September 2000
Today on TV I saw that there was another school shooting...In CANADA! Now explain to me how in Canada, a country with "Sane" and "Sensible" gun control laws.
But we do have sane and sensible gun laws. That doesn't mean we don't have guns, period, and it doesn't mean that someone who really, really wants to find a gun never will. This shooting has all the hallmarks of a copycat attack; perhaps someone else saw no way out, perhaps someone just wanted to be a jerk.
The province of Alberta has always been pretty right-wing, from moral to political issues. Gun control is one of 'em; some of the most vocal anti-gun control sentiment comes from Alberta, and it gave rise to Canada's largest conservative party, the Reform party.
Back to the subject at hand. Gun crimes do occur here; however, they occur far less often than in the States. Even when you adjust for our smaller population, the U.S. violent crime and gun crime rate comes out higher, much higher. Is this because the Constitution makes gun ownership a right? Is it because the U.S. is a more stressful country to live in? Is it because modern life sucks? I don't know. I don't claim to have answers. I do know that you shouldn't get all smug and holy about a homicide involving a gun at a school occurring here; in fact, you may want to think about what the real issue is in these school shootings before saying "nyah nyah, your laws suck and ours rule because people still got killed there."
The issues are alienation and despair, with some parental neglect thrown in for good measure. It happens here too; difference is, aside from the copycat shooting (may the shooter enjoy an eternity of jail time, changes to the Young Offenders Act willing), no one here has gone as far off the edge as the Littleton shooters, and if anyone tried, they'd have a much harder time trying to get weapons.
But when there's a will, there's a way...
At this point, it may be wise to lock politicians out of the discussion entirely. Legislative solutions are being marketed left, right, center, outside, inside, up, down, anyplace you can breathe. It is not legislative, or even political change that is necessary. It is mental and social change, something far more difficult to accomplish and get people to accept. The mindset that currently exists in American (and to some extent Canadian) schools must be changed to one where the concept of an "outcast" is removed, where it becomes unacceptable to reject someone for absolutely petty things to build oneself up (which is precisely what happens when the outcasts are attacked; the attackers are trying to justify themselves by marginalizing their victims). It's more difficult than just enacting a gun law or charging the parents, because it requires many people to change the way they look at school and the people around them. It will require parents to teach their children, really teach them, that it is wrong to judge people by their non-harmful behaviours and intrinsic characteristics. People claim it happens now. It doesn't, not to the extent necessary. Until it does, we will read and hear more sad stories of the Hellmouth like Katz has been reporting.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
I saw one story where Dylan Klebold was described as "one of the best math minds in the school." I don't know about Harris, but anyone taking calculus in HS (where it's offered, of course!) is at least a protogeek.
Not all geeks are saints, of course, but I wonder how much anti-intellectualism was going on at that school and if that contributed to pushing them over the edge.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
There was a segment on _Today_ this morning mentioning something like 16 bomb scares nationwide in one day in the wake of the Littleton shootings.
They did not say how many are normal, especially at this time of year. 16 might be a few more than normal, or a few less. Or it might be much more than normal and a reason for concern... or maybe not. An event which was quietly handled two weeks ago, rating no more than a 1" column on page 37A, will now appear as the lead story on page 1.
More to the point that Katz and others have brought up, it's reasonable for the administrators to take strong action when a student possesses a pipe bomb, posts a detailed "hit list", or has written plans for placing a bomb in the school.
But what on earth does the students' choice of clothing material have to do with this? So what if a student wants to wear all black? Or combat boots? Or funny makeup?
(I can accept that banning dusters and trenchcoats might serve a public good... but why strip search a student wearing one? Does the principal expect to find a shotgun stuffed in the student's undergarments?!)
Clearly these events are totally different, yet we've had numerous reports from students of authorities seeing no difference between a tube of eyeliner and a pipe bomb. We know this is insane, apparently a few reporters sniffing for stories know this, but why isn't it in the mainstream press? Do the editors somehow think that a bit of mass panic is good for everyone?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
As if I enjoyed being beaten up once a week for four years.
I used to sneer at the idea that homosexuality was something you were born with, till a gay geek made me see the parallels.
--
Clear, Dark Skies
I feel high school is just like a prison -with nicer carpets and worse food. It's not that I hate school. I've been doing better since I got Zoloft: I don't wish I was dead all the time. It's just that I wish I had the choice to leave if I wanted to. I'm just glad my sentance is over in a month or so.
One of my teachers says that he thinks that most of the troubles in the US school system is because students can't opt out of the system.
If I recall correctly, on one of these young men's web pages, there was a piece written about how awful racism is, or at least so I heard on NPR. Additionally, NPR also reported that the swastika they were fond of wearing had a circle around it, and a slash through it, generally not a sign that
one supports the ideals for which the swastika has come to stand. The talking in German, some acquaintances have suggested, had more to do with their fascination with Rammstein than with the Reichstag. If these pieces of information are true, how to reconcile this with the fact that the two apparently used a racial epithet when shooting Isaiah, their sole black victim? One might suppose that any epithets they employed were done to further humiliate their victims, and not out of any great abyss of racial resentment.
In any event, why is only on national public radio that I have heard these assertions? Media powerhouses afraid of ratcheting down the level of demonization just a little, maybe?
Think Different
Got any suggestions on to follow in your footsteps? Career-wise or dating/professional? Is he a lawyer or something?
anonymous_loser@yahoo.com
Ya, so I am one of those kids in highschool, but I'm smarter than most of the teachers. Humans can create powerfull good in the world an unspeakable evil. When I walk down the street sporting my new Cradle of Filth shirt with my black trench coat slung over my back and some "preppie" yells FAGGOT at me then I'm going to get pissed. The point is I shouldn't get pissed. I shouldn't care about how that person is judging me, and how I am judging them by calling them a preppie, but i do care. We all need to fight for something, and since my rich suburban life dulls me, I am willing to fight over such week crap. If I loved all humans, life would be boaring. I am sick of counclers and teachers trying to re-program me into thinking that the REAL WORLD nothing bad happens and that in the REAL WORLD people don't get shot or mad. And in the REAL WORLD people don't wear black because it offends me.
I know it probably doesn't help anyone in high school right now to hear this, BUT IT DOES GET BETTER. High school is not real life. Real life is real life, and that's when survival of the fittest actually gives the average geek a real advantage. I work in the entertainment industry and let me tell you: 90% of my colleagues (and we're talking feature film studio execs, agents, producers, tv network execs) were GEEKS in high school. My brother is a computer geek: never had a date in HS, but now that he bills $25,000 a month on average, he's inundated with offers. So if you're in high school now, and suffering from the crap dished out by the jocks and the preps and the popular kids, just remember that the best revenge is doing well, finding a way to be happy, and looking forward to a fruitful, successful life. And in ten years, when you're happily married, earning a nice six-figure salary or about to take your company public, you'll remember your HS experience as something that gave you backbone and fortitude. And believe it or not, the captain of the football team might just be the guy who fills your tank with gas. This sounds like a cliche, but it happened in my HS: the captain of our HS football team -- the biggest jerk on the planet -- arrived for an interview at a major corporation and discovered that the vice-president interviewing him was none other than the kid who he'd tormented incessantly for four years. And guess what: my friend Richard (the vp) gave the guy the job. Why? Because ten years had passed, and the guy needed the job. (And I suspect a little psychology at play: it's a lot more powerful to give someone a job than to deny them a job.)
Subtraction tells me I'm 30 now, but Junior High will never seem very far away.
I grew up Mennonite. Most of you who have even the faintest idea what that means are probably thinking "horse-drawn buggies and no electricity". Maybe this will clarify: Amish:Mennonite~::~Hassidic:Jewish The main point is this: my family had a slightly different set of values than that of most of the kids I went to school with in suburban Wichita, KS. I wasn't dressed in preppy clothes. I was taught that violence was unequivocally wrong. I was taught to treat others with love and respect. That made me just slightly different from those around me, in a not-quite-identifiable way.
Fine. Grade school was generally tolerable, though by the end of it I was starting to formulate some ideas about why the education system sucked so bad, especially for the creative individual. Isolated experiences with bullies started making me a bit cynical about the kids I went to school with, but it could be survived.
7th. grade -- the beginning of Junior High. Hell opened up its stinking, wretched maw and puked all over my little world. Instantly, and for no reason I could conceive of, I was singled out for systematic derision and abuse -- not by one or two people who happened not to like me, but by tens of people from all different cliques and social groups. People I didn't even know would call me a fag as I walked down the hall. Food would be thrown at me in the cafeteria. Stuff would be smeared on my locker. I was spit upon. I was shoved. This was not teasing, or good-natured razzing, but systematic abuse. I can remember screaming obscenities at a whole shop class.
It wasn't just because I was in the "gifted" program -- there were lots of others who didn't get the shit I got. It wasn't that I was some kind of teachers' pet -- I really didn't get great grades -- I was always more interested in my own projects than whatever it was the teachers happened to be saying. It wasn't just because I was into computers -- there were plenty of geekier geeks than me that weren't singled out in the way I was. Everyone I knew read science fiction/fantasy if they read anything at all, but they weren't called "space-cadet". I wasn't a racial minority, I wasn't the ugliest person in school, or the fattest, or the skinniest, or the richest, or the poorest. I wasn't gay, and though they called me a fag, I don't really believe that anyone actually thought I was homosexual. That's just the Junior High code word for "We f'ing hate you!"
The point was not that I belonged to the wrong group, but that I didn't belong to any group. Though we pay lip service to "Individualism" in the US, what we really mean is "selfism". Society doesn't really respect the individual as a social entity. The naked individual is truly the most hated, isolated minority there is. Racism, sexism, and homophobia, are all instantiations of the one great hatred: The hatred of the Individual by the Group.
I've played more fantasy/sf role-playing games than I can count. I've played Doom. I've played Quake. I've seen plenty of movie violence. I'm still committed to pacifism. What you get out of what you see in the movies or on your computer screen depends more on the values and experiences you bring to it than the content. In High School, my friends and I would play elaborate wargames with toy guns that shot plastic tracers and rubber bullets. Later we graduated to paintball. Did it desensitize me to killing? No. Paintballs can sting. You can pump up a lot of adrenaline and fear in a paintball game, even though you know the most that can happen is a little welt or bruise. But if you come to the game with a healthy dose of common sense, empathy, and respect for life and others, you learn how utterly unthinkable real violence is.
I learned something profound about the world one day in ninth grade when I was being taunted by a couple of the more popular girls in the school. There was a girl in our class who had skipped a grade or two and was developmentally behind everybody else (physically, at least). She was almost as much a pariah as I was and was dumped on unmercifully by the conformist majority. So the popular girls were goading me to ask her out to some dance or something. Clearly, the implication was that here were two geeky freaks that were perfect for each other. Not wanting to be associated with somebody that was so despised, I began insulting her. She wasn't present to hear it, but I later started to feel really uneasy about what I'd done. She had done nothing to deserve that from me, other than being another outcast. So why did I do it? It suddenly occurred to me that I could understand why the other kids treated me like shit. I had done the same thing to someone else (behind her back, at least.) It wasn't that they hated me as an individual. Some of the same people who trashed me in front of their friends were on occasion at least civil to me on an individual basis. It wasn't personal. It was all about the all-mighty Group.
I resolved to be the ultimate anti-conformist -- I wouldn't do what the f'ing conformists wanted me to do, but I wouldn't reactionarilly do the opposite, either. I would do exactly what I wanted to do and be exactly who I wanted to be. I had been through Hell. Nothing they could say anymore was worse than what had already been said. For me, it wasn't a choice of whether to conform to this clique or that, but a challenge to survive Junior High and High School without belonging at all.
I was taught not to hate others, and after seeing that I was fully capable of being just like them, it was a little easier not to. But I had to have some object for the hatred that my classmates were pumping through me, so I hated the Group and the System. I constructed an elaborate fantasy world where Weird Energy would ultimately triumph over the numbed, mindless army of conformists.
I can't say that I emerged from Jr. High/High School without a scratch. I can't say that I always perfectly lived up to my ideals. Despite my convictions about violence, I beat the shit out of one kid a couple times. But I can only imagine what I would have done if I hadn't had some pretty strong moral beliefs restraining my hand.
I never had a date till my sixth year of college (out of seven -- I was still more interested in my own projects.) We've been very happily married for 3.5 years now. But it took a revolution in my thinking before I could ever ask her out. I was so afraid of rejection, and I'd built up this idea that I was such a unique, nonconformist individual, that only a few, extremely rare women could ever see me for who I was. So I'd get infatuated with a girl, and think "this is the only one who could understand me -- this is my only chance for a meaningful relationship, so I'd better not screw it up" -- and would be parylized into inaction. I would think that I would have to make her want me, by being so charmingly quirky that she would come to me. It was bullshit and it never worked. I finally had to decide that this one shot was not my only chance, and I could take a risk.
But before that were many hours of "The Wall" on video and as a midnight movie. There was lots and lots of misery, self-pity, wretched poetry, and "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" in those college years. Yet I did not kill myself or anybody else. To do so would have been dumber than a shitsickle stick. It would have meant that the bastards had won, that the System had ground me under it's wheels. Finally, I learned that wallowing in self-pity wasn't the most attractive trait I could have, and after I dumped that, things did get better. I still listen to Pink Floyd though.
The Politics of Exclusion is what creates homicidal lunatics. Conformism is the root of all evil. It's certainly why Uncle Bill is so filthy, stinking rich. Ultimately, we have to hold people accountable for whether or not they give in to the assumed desires of the conformist majority and become part of the problem, or think for themselves.
That's part of what makes the Open Source movement so compelling. Generally speaking, it's not filled with a bunch of me-too consumers, but rather people who have at least half a brain, and are interested in being part of a better solution, popularity-be-damned. It's about thinking for yourself, being creative, and being inclusive. No wonder this issue has generated so much traffic here.
So what's my point? I dunno. There's hamburger all over the highway in Mystic, Connecticut.
That person who posted the comment about the power of people getting together to stop a pervasive problem in society (Like MADD did for drunk driving) got me thinking...
The schools of the world need a Zero Tolerance Bullying policy. Instead of teachers, administrators and fellow students ignoring the
assholes who make people suffer, they should make it clear that bullying behavior will not be tolerated and WILL be punished. No more "turning a blind eye" on "kids being kids."
Heck! I'd even put together a site to make it "official" If we could make the media aware of this "official site" then we make schools feel
obligated to implement the plan, and we could (hopefully) reduce the daily torture of so many kids in our schools.
Discussions of how to prevent bullys seeking revenge on snitches would need to be laid out, as well as appropriate (effective) punishments,
etc. etc. But if the good readers of Slashdot made initial suggestions, we could hammer out a good plan in no time!
We've created a forum for anyone who has something to say about Littleton. We'll gladly put up your stories, and any comments you have regarding being an outcast in highschool. Our goal is to dispell the medias halftruths about this issue. Please check it out http://members.tripod.com/SolidarityNow/
Until someone came along and taught me a way to begin thinking about violence.
Thinking About Violence in Our Schools
The Orenda Project -- Community Soul on the Right Path http://www.musenet.org/orenda
Dutch TV would like to talk to school students in NY area about reasons behind school shootings. Students who wrote Jon Katz about it, who want to tell what's it like to be a non-conformist kid and be treated in an awful way because of that. Who want to explain cliques, importance of sports, money, background.
We come to where you are. Is for background story on the school shootings that will only be broadcast in the Netherlands. Please contact chrisveldkamp@yahoo.com
Patience, grasshopper. We're working on it...
:)
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
I think we all agree that geeks get picked on in school because jocks feel incomplete unless they know they are superior in some way, if not to everyone, to at least one class of individuals.
Imagine what the world would be like if geeks felt the same way?
Imagine we construct the Internet and get the world hooked on it, then limit use to other geeks...
Imangine the control we would have if we banded together against certain forces, like Microsoft. What if the geeks decided that no web sites would respond to Microsoft browsers. I know of ZERO web sites that are not managed in some way by a geek.
What of we controlled Internet traffic to allow only certain protocols to get through.
What if we decided to declare Internet cleaning day....for real.
What if we decided that WE control the Internet, the media, telephone system, etc. simply because we are the the ones who control the method of delivery.
Think about it... Geeks run the NAPs, geeks administer the networks, geeks run the web sites (maybe not the content, but the server the content runs on), geeks run the TV stations and networks, geeks print the newspapers.
Governments wouldn't even THINK about going against us on encryption or censorship... We can fight against this kind of abuse, simply by not implementing the contols. They can't arrest us all, or even shut us down.
We could be mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore. We could decide to stop simply running the world, but controling it as well.
But...
We're not. So we allow the world to remain free from our control one more day.