Slashdot Mirror
More Stories From The Hellmouth
The messages started coming in a trickle Friday afternoon, then a torrent by Monday. They were wrenching, sometimes astonishing, an electronic outpouring of anger and compassion.
These jarring testimonials explained more - a lot more - about Littleton than all the vapid media stories about video violence, Goths, game-crazed geeks.
For a writer, there? s nothing more humbling than to be at a loss for words. I can't do more justice to these stories than to let them speak for themselves.
By last night, I had received thousands of e-mails about life in junior and high school. Few remembered it fondly - none, in fact. Some had unbearable memories. Some are still recovering. Many more are still there, suffering every day.
Many of you wrote asking if you could help these kids. Others wondered if there was any way to get the message about their lives out beyond Slashdot, if these stories might reach the mainstream media in some form.
Don't worry about that. The column and the responses to it richocheted all over the world, via e-mail, mailing lists, links, even faxes. There were scores of requests to reprint. For any others, and on behalf of Slashdot, be my guest.
On the Net, ideas don't need to be pushed. They find their own audience and stand or fall of their own weight. Eventually, I will answer each e-mail, and am grateful for them.
In the wake of the killings in Littleton, Colorado, here are more stories from The Hellmouth, from its current and former children:
From Eric near Littleton, Colorado:
"?I live just a few miles north of the school between the same streets. I'm a geek under the skin. I was a state champ in the high jump, and the leading scorer on the track team, so I was not quite the outcast that some of the geeks are, but I understand what they are going through. I wasn't very popular despite being the big athlete on campus, but I at least had respect.
I am very happy to see you and Slashdot carrying coverage of "the other side" of the story; the side nobody else wants to look at. These outcast kids are now being swept under the rug at best, and prosecuted at worst."
From Josh, a Slashdot reader:
"I was much like those kids when I was in school - weird, cast out, not much liked, alienated, all that sort of thing'I used to imagine bringing weaponry to school and making the fuckers who made my life miserable beg for mercy. (I was never sure what to do then, though. Do I let them go? They won't have learned, and after that, I could never turn my back. Do I kill them? I really just wanted to be left alone'Remember the scene in "Ender's Game.") I think my parents and their support made a lot of difference to me."
From John of Austin:
"?you can probably imagine the emotional scars that I still tote around with me at age 26. I still have yet to go to college, I have shelves upon shelves of books that I have bought, read and committed to memory. From literature to computer programming, there is no one that I can't have a meaningful and informed conversation with.
But to this day, the thought of entering another educational institution to prove that I have the facilities to be a ?meaningful? member of society makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end and turns my stomach inside out.
"I am the father now, and as such I worry about the kind of life my son will lead, too much at times, I'm sure'A few weeks ago I was watching the TLC (The Learning Channel) or the Discovery channel, and there was a special on the social structure within the United States prison system on. While I was watching it, I was thinking to myself just how similar it was to the social structure we find in schools.."
From John, who's 37 years old:
"What this really means to all my fellow young geeks out there? Endure. It may take a year, or two or five, but we will win'All those preps, jocks, etc., etc., will have their Ms. degrees, 2.5 kids, a job at Circuit City as an assistant manager, will be wondering where their life went, when we are coming into full bloom and taking over the world."
From Dan:
"How dare you glorify these scum? They were Nazi thugs, nothing more, nothing less. They are brutal murderers. They planned this on Hitler's Birthday, for God's sake. What kind of creep are you? How dare you compare them to geeks? They deserved everything they had coming to them, and so do you. May they rot in Hell."
From Kevin, a parent:
"I am married, have two wonderful little kids, and am, by conventional measures, considered "successful." I'm also a computer geek, a nerd, and still have painful memories of the emotional and physical trauma I sustained in high school. I still attend counseling regularly. I still take anti-depressants every day and will probably continue to do so for the rest of my life.
"Did I feel hate and rage for my attackers? Oh, yes. But I could never do anything about it and couldn't get anyone to help me. The only advice I got from my parents was to just ignore the bullys and eventually they'd leave me alone. Fortunately, I don't seem to be pre-disposed to violence or was too much of a coward to consider it. I can, however, see how the wrong kid in the wrong situation could go over the edge."
From Peter in Boston:
"I am a geek, and very proud of it. I have been beaten, spit on, pushed, jeered at. Food is sometimes thrown at and on me while teachers pretend not to see, people trip me. Jocks knock me down in the hallway. They steal my notes, call me a geek and a fag and a freak, tear up my books, have pissed in my locker twice. They cut my shirt and rip it. They wait for me in the boy's room and beat me up. I have to wait an hour to leave school to make sure they're gone.
Mostly, I honestly think, this is because I'm smarter than they are, and they hate that.
The really amazing thing is, they are the most popular people in the school, while everybody thinks I'm a freak. The teachers slobber all over them. Mostly, the other kids laugh, or walk away and pretend not to see it. The whole school cheers when they play sports. Sometimes, I want very much to kill them. Sometimes, I picture how I'd do it. Wouldn't you? But unlike those guys in Littleton, I never will. I value my own life much more. When I read these messages, I would ask other geeks to try and remember that, no matter what. And get online and make contact."
From Rory in Chicago:
"Would you bring a kid abused by his family to counseling and call him the problem? If that kid expressed rage and anger toward the world, we would call it a product of his abuse, and try to help him with this rage, treating him as the victim. However when it is other kids abusing each other, we treat the abusees as the problem and ignore the abusers altogether. Hunting down and persecuting the abusees is only going to alienate them further - not only with their peers be persecuting them but so will their parents and teachers."
From Jason, a Slashdot reader:
"Jon, please take these e-mails'and take them to CNN, ABC, NBC, whoever, what ever. Make them heard, and stand up for all of us! Geeks = different, different = okay, if not better! Make my mother understand, sweeping problems under the rug, or simply not dealing with them, doesn't do jack shit! And there's a bigger problem, it's them!
The people who think being different is bad, being geek is bad, TV, Games, the Internet, all bad! It will be hard, a minority against a majority! But please do it!"
From Evan: "I am 24 years old, and a successful professional now, but the, fifteen years ago, I was in the Hellmouth. Just wanted to shout some small form of encouragement out to the kids fighting today. Take your fight for the right to be different to the people with power, and enlist your parents? help. Remember that if you can get your parents to understand your need to be creative, and non-conformist, because your brain is just plain bigger than the small world of middle and high school, your parents can make a fuss to school boards. But if they won't listen, go to the school boards yourself. Peacefully, but forcefully, assert your right to be different by speaking out against fear and oppression. Because that's what it is. It's all about the fear.
People fear what they don't understand, and let's face it, the world of a geek isn't something most people can understand, if only because it's a complicated world filled with smart folks. And most people aren't complicated smart folks. You have GOT to break them of the fear. You gotta explain that it's an outlet, like racquetball or bridge. You have to explain it's not violent, it's colorful. You want violent? Look at football, look at sports.
That's REAL ACTUAL violence, not the simulated, stylized, far from even looking-real violence of video games or D&D (Dungeons and Dragons). And for a real kicker, ask them how many geeks are arrested for violent crimes and misdemeanors when compared to popular athletes."
From Cory, a high school student:
"I go to a private high school and on Wednesday in religion class I told the class, because we were on the subject that I could understand what would drive them (the killers in Littleton, Colorado) to do it. They said that it couldn't happen at our school and I responded by saying that it could because back in my freshman year it was so bad (the jokes, abuse, etc.) that I wished I had had a gun at home. I am a Senior now and 9 days from graduation. News got to the administration and I was suspended until I received an evaluation by a psychologist and was deemed safe to return to school. I have not been back to school since."
From MishtaE: "I've been out of school for awhile (not very long) but I still physically shake, I feel adrenaline go through my system when I think about my own junior high experiences'The feeling of hopelessness, of knowing that you have no one to go to who can or will make it STOP is a very horrid feeling. It makes you consider irrational things, because the rational ones obviously don't apply.
"But make no mistake, the cruelty inflicted on kids doesn't magically go away when you graduate (or drop out and get your GED at 16 as I did). You live with it, you learn to deal with it, but it's still there, and it does change you."
From LHRunkle, a self-described geek Mom:
"?my six-year old wonders why he isn't popular on the block, but does not enjoy racing his bike, or playing soccer. (Soccer is becoming fun.) He also wonders why noone else is reading the books he is. The online community did not exist when I was in high school, but geek culture did. Dungeons & Dragons (the original three-booklet set) and science fiction saved me.
"How many scared parents have taken the time to introduce their child to the items that kept them sane in high school? How many high school libraries are even allowed to stock Theodore Sturgeon, or all of Robert Heinlein? Before we go to Net culture, we need to face local culture. How many schools enforce a respect-for-all policy, and enforce it fairly? I know that I have a budding geek, and if I can get him sane through the next thirteen years, there will be another decent adult on this planet."
From Simon:
"The mainstream is missing the point. All over the world, "geeks" are standing up and saying "This is horrible and I know what cause it" and all over the world people are saying "Oh, my God! Another killer!" I'll spell it out: "The killers are a symptom of the alienation of an unrecognized minority - the geeks." No, that doesn't make it right. No, that doesn't mean a thousand more killers are lurking in the computer rooms of your schools.
"Failure to understand this severely limits your ability to correct it. I read with dismay that geeks are being cut off from the Internet and violent online games so that they "won't become killers."
Follow my logic here:
"Given: The killers were motivated in no small part by alienation. Reducing a persons contact with like-minded people increases their alienation. Reducing a person's sense of identify increases their sense of alienation. Geeks tend to communicate with each other via the Internet and online games.
"Conclusion: Cutting geeks off from each other (Internet access) and their identity (choice of clothing) will increase rather than decrease the likelihood of violence."
"I've been wracking my brain to figure out what stopped me (from hurting someone). I've been asking myself "what can I hand to people to fix this?" The answer is very simple. The faces are very clear in my memory of the few "popular people" who took the time to talk to me and find out about me. There are maybe a half a dozen. They showed me that they were people too.
I heard a report, it may not be true [it is] that one of the killers went and told one of his classmates before the killing, "I like you. Go home." If that happened if you are that person, you know that your attitude saved your life. If there were a few more like you, maybe it would have saved everyone."
From Armadillo:
" I thought I had put this behind me but I obviously haven't. This whole past week has really torn me up inside because 15 years ago, I was one of those kids. Because HS for me was sheer and utter Hell. I have no single memory that I can recall as being good.
I have no single person who I can recall as a friend. Hell, even the OTHER rejects kicked me around. I feel like I'm seeing this all through the eyes of a refugee from a war, who by some circumstance is rescued, taken off to a land far from the conflict, far from the danger and death and constant fear and destruction.
Years later, after having made some personal peace with the past, if not the people, they hear or see a report that their former home town or village has been bombed and the people they knew killed and it all comes flooding back.
"Why is it that we as geeks, freaks, nerds, dorks, dweebs'have to suffer while the clueless, bow-headed, tostosterone poisoned "normal" people are allowed to get away with murder'I wonder just how many outcasts have been driven to suicide because of just one too many tauntings or practical jokes on a particular afternoon?
"Why do we murder the spirits of our most gifted and talented young people? THEY are the ones that are our future. THEY are the ones that are best equipped to build the world to their hopes and dreams. The prom queens and cheerleaders will have their 15 minutes and then take their places among the teeming masses of consumers. They have already shown they want to be lead around and are more than happy to let society tell them where to go and what to do."
From Nick:
" I'm a junior in high school in a suburb of.... I felt that in light of what happened last Tuesday and your recent article on Slashdot, I should respond. Recently, one of my friends, Chris, was suspended for three days. He's an athlete (football and shotput), but is no means considered a "jock" as he plays computer games, reads fantasy novels, plays Warhammer 40K, etc. One person, Ryan, considered a "nerd" by his peers, mislabeled him [Chris} as a jock and decided to taunt him verbally. Chris is normally a nice guy who's never been in a fight before, as he gets along with most students. This verbal abuse continued for almost the entire school year so far.
Last Thursday, Chris slapped Ryan upside the head due to a particularly nasty thing that was said and Ryan picked up a chair, shouting death threats and swears. They were quickly broken up by the teacher and hall monitors, and were escorted to the dean's office.
Normally, each would only get a 1 day in-school suspension for what they did, but due to the incident in Colorado, each got three days and counseling by the school psychiatrist for the remainder of the year. The deans obviously overreacted, given the circumstances. What the main problem is here is that years of torment in people like Ryan's lives have led to such "classes" -- Goths, nerds, freaks, preps, etc. People form together in cliques where people are distinctly filed into the social pecking order. The high school situation could (and is) leading to a French Revolution-esque "class war" where social outcasts decide to say enough with the years of torment. Unfortunately, this is happening sooner than we think.
From Sally:
"The irony in the current coverage, at least to me, is that I remember my leather-jacketed, spiky-haired, combat-boot wearing friends as being for the most part peaceful, gentle, sensitive types - lots of vegetarians and anti-nuke people. Sure, there were a few who probably could have benefited from some therapy, but most of them were - and are - the nicest, kindest people I knew, despite their rather alarming appearance. After all, we had to be like that - we all knew what it felt like to be shoved in a locker, spit on, have stuff thrown at us, etc. I seem to remember the football players and other jocks as being a lot more violent and given to fits of rage and other displays of aggression.
... I certainly agree that the two shooters in Littleton were deranged boys filled with hate, But it's a fine line between a supposedly "well-adjusted" teenager [who bashes freaks] and a disturbed one."
From Matthew C in Wisconsin:
"I, like many of the Slashdot audience, was one of those those kids in high school, and junior high, and elementary school. I have suffered what those kids suffered, and continue to suffer. I made it through, but apparently not everyone does. The response to your article seems to suggest that there are many of us out there who want to help do something to curb the backlash to focus on the correct issue. I was wondering, in your surely large catalogue of responses to this column, have you found any hints of where we might send letters? Or who we might contact, to start telling people what the real problems are?
I want to help. I want to write, to talk, to help ensure that geeks of today and tomorrow aren't further persecuted for pursuing differences from the norm. We have to spread the word far and wide, teachers, parents and people who should know better than to ban trenchcoats, take away computers, and further drive their kids into depression and isolation. How can we organize something meaningful?"
I am going to go to NBC, CBS and any others and send them a e-mail asking for someone there to read these stories. The over 500 comments made the yesterday and then report on that. I you to wish to I am sure that with enough people saying "hey look over here" we will be able to get them to listen
Perhaps this is pointless, perhaps it will end up on 'ask slashdot' But I think all this comes down to one important question: What can I (generic computer geek with no kids) do about this? In terms of possibly making high school better or educating the media about the fact that Doom has absolutely nothing to do with why there are dead people in Colorado. Any suggestions?
well we have access to everything USA's kids have... except the GUNS! anyway I can tell you from my past that here in canada, stories like that also happens without needing of labeling anyone... The basic stuff... Tough ones beat the non-violent or the weak ones. The old grade school bully story... anyway from what I can tell, all those who laughed at me are now having a low-profile degradating job while I'm attending university... So I say : "the hell with those bastards we shall prevail"
The circumstances which led up to this tragedy are caused by a bug in our culture. Perhaps, the attitudes prevalent in our culture were once useful. In a small society, struggling to propogate, individualism was a bad thing.
Times have changed and we need an upgrade to version 2.0.
To the kids out there being persecuted, hang in there, sensible adults ARE listening. Don't let them win, don't let them create a self-fulfilling prophesy. Things WILL get better, but it will take time. Be a part of the solution, not part of the problem.
I read these stories of youthful nerds in distress ... Sigh ... What's done is done; move on.
... Good genes, strong encouragement from parents, a few, precious few, good teachers.
and I recall my own angst at the same time in my life. That was 40+ years ago and it still hurts at times. The beatings, the heckling, being ignored, looked through, excluded from groups, cliques, just plain isolated. Worse, the institutions and officials from my youth participated in the harrasment: Why don't you play sports? You are a loner; make friends, join a club. Go to church. Parents of peers weren't much better; their kids were too good to fratranize with us geeks.
... but, I have my revenge. While my cohort was busy playing sports, joining the "Latin Club", partying, being cliquish, in my isolation I was plotting my revenge and studying. I never went to college after high school; The thought of more of the same, just different environment was just too much to contemplate. Nonetheless, I achieved my revenge long ago: good skills, a good career, strong values, tolerance for others, affluence, a good life. As the say: "Living well is the best revenge."
Where are they now? Well, the principal at my highschool went to jail for embezlement, a gym coach went to jail for molesting the boys, a bunch of jocks were cannon fodder in Viet Nam; good riddance to bad rubbish. There are a few career civil servants, mostly tradesmen. One really, really does flip burgers still; at 55! For the most part, I wouldn't piss up their collective assholes if their guts were on fire.
Where are the geeks among us? First, there were very few of us. For the most part we are the successful technocrats of business and industry. We done good.
Now, I can't help tie the disdain for geeks to the shortage of engineers and other technical professionals to the abuse I recieved a the hands of peers and 'the system' so long ago. I would also suggest that the harrasment of geeks today causes many to "just go along with the system", to avoid the harrasment: forced mediocrity, if you will. Being smart, studious, well educated is just not the in thing.
Why did I turn out the way I did, rather than waste a bunch of 'em?
Ob joke:
Q: What does a Liberal Arts grad say to a CompSci grad?
A: You want fries with that?
The reason is that high school kids treat each other like crap. Its just the way they are. Its the root of this problem, and there's probably nothing that can be done about it.
It's true that it's going to be impossible to get people in school to treat each other with respect. But that's not the real problem, at least as I see it.
The problem is that, unlike any other part of life, in school you can't get away from the people who are treating you like crap. The government forces all these people to be there, whether they get along or not. It's like sticking too many rats into the same cage -- they turn on each other. Not that kids are rats, but you get the point.
Instead of wasting time emailing school boards and congresscritters, who not only have no interest in understanding but lack the capacity, if the geeks want to fight back there is one thing they can do: stop going to school. I don't mean just ditch class; I mean an organized, internet-coordinated campaign to BOYCOTT these society-condoned prison camps.
I was one of the geeks myself back when I was imprisoned in the state's re-education camps. I amused myself between beatings by figuring out where to place the plastic explosives to ensure the building's complete obliteration. The only reason I didn't snap is that I realized it wasn't the other students that were the problem, it was the fact that I was being forced against my will to BE THERE in the first place. Blowing up a school wouldn't change the law that made me -- under threat of myself and my parents being thrown in jail -- have to be bused to that soul-crushing farce day after day after day.
The result of my own time in school is that I have no love or loyality to this society that mind-raped me for 12 years of my life. If the US wants to keep destroying it's best and brightest, fine with me... that will hasten the day when this cursed place falls into history's dustbin.
Not only should those geeks currently forced to attend those prisons attempt to boycott them, those of us who have already survived can help as well. What would happen if no school or education authority could find a programmer anywhere at any price? All this rhetoric about how "geeks rule the world after graduation"... that's just bull if we don't bother to USE that power. Maybe we can save the kids, unlike no one bothered to save us.
I come from sort of a unique view on this. I was a geek in HS, but I was generally accepted. Being a geek also sometimes entitled me to specail priveleges. Me and a friend of mine were pretty much the only computer geeks in the school at that time (the teacher in charge of the computers knew how to use WordPerfect and other apps, but that was about it), so we spent much time helping the school counselors with their PC's. We got out of school most of the day one time to clean up after a virus that affected ~80% of the PC's. We were probably ridiculed behind our backs, but generally not to our faces, I beleive I was well-liked, and I had friends in many of the other clique's.
What I noticed, however, was toward the end of the school year my senior year was that the class sort of came together. I think it happened some time during our senior trip. We began to have fun together, and by the end of the day, we were talking to and laughing with people we hadn't talked to since the third or forth grade.
My solution is that instead of "accepting" all members of the "caste" system in HS, the system itself should be abolished. I mean, those groups don't exisit in the workplace to that extent, why should they exist in HS, which is suppsosedly supposed to be preparing us for the "real world" (the fact that it doesn't is a whole different thread altogether). I feel that the "walls" could be torn down by doing teambuilding excercises (sounds corny -- I know), having students work in randomly chosen teams, etc. Sure, your're still going to have the occasional jerk who still makes fun of the different kids, but when the different kids are friends with everone else, the jerk is going to be the outcast.
WTF? "All kids suspended for fighting or making threats should be made to take a personality inventory test and if necessary removed from school. -- Jugger" What's it going to say in the "test"? "Do you ever get urges to bring a gun to school and kill people?" or something like that? Get a clue; that's not going to solve the problem of violent tendacies.
As a homeschooler I have few friends (compared to?).
And some people think I'm not getting the education
I should (to work at McZargles?)
But I think it's totaly worth it. I don't feel like
killing anyone, I get to learn Linux and Perl instead of how to use a condom and
I already have work doing scripting.
I'll be playing Unreal all night.
The words, 'jock', 'popular', 'cheerleader', and 'captain of the X team', sure don't help you when you start looking for a job. They didn't work. They were cool. Now they're struggling to make ends meet. This is why I feel no pity for so much of the down and out. Everyone gets where they today are depending on the choices they made in the past.
"Yes buddy, I do have a quarter, but you ain't gettin' it."
Yes, the people who killed the 12 kids & 1 adult before killing themselves were sick individuals.
I don't think you'll find anyone disputing that.
The article shows that the abuse of kids is systemic -- and uses the words of fellow geeks who personally (if anecdotally) suffered. Like one person said, High School is like being sent to jail.
The better kids -- smarter, more creative, or more compassionate -- tend to get the most abuse since they stand out. Even though waiting for adulthood will show that the abusers are working in some slummy job isn't much of a consolation since many adults still suffer.
The schools, teachers, and admistrators are at fault for turing away from the core problem and not addressing it.
Thier reaction to these _2_ sick individuals is to make anyone who looks like them or is some how unusual singled out and persecuted. It is bigotry, and it is based on ignorance and fear.
The letters Mr. Katz posted clearly and painfully spell out the deamon hunt going on now. It should be rejected and pointed out for the bigotry that it is, not supported as a reasoned response!
THAT is what is wrong and THAT is what people are responding to here.
My personal question is how much is this abuse costing us in $$$?
I'm a geek -- enjoy having friends call me that -- and don't presently from any abuse I suffered in grade school, but I definately understand.
I don't think _becoming_ what those that tormented me in high school would be a 'victory' at all. But I _do_ think there is a sense of justice when I am suddenly well paid for my interests in computers and 'geek' things, while those that worshiped materialism and beauty in high school are now slinging fries.
What makes it 'winning' is that I am now the envy of those people, and I still could care less about them.
Being deeply religious (rare for a geek but it does happen), I made a two year commitment to go on a mission after graduation. Being religious is easy when no one around you is (that individualistic streak), but when you find yourself surrounded by mantra chanting drones it gets very hard -- as a comparison, a prep rally does not even come close. An example, sixty people in a room, one by one each stands up and says the gospel is true. It is supposed to come from the heart, but if you don't stand up, the meeting does not end. Everyone stares at you until you break. I hunkered down and fulfilled my commitment as best I could -- did not survive with my faith intact.
The point? Know your personality, choose professions and personal relationships that will let you thrive (try the personality test). If you don't, the high school experience will never end.
I fairly successfully avoided being seriously
impacted by what other people thought about me
in high school. Certainly there was a point
(way before high school) where I _was_ affected,
but I learned how to ignore it (I didn't have
to do this on my own -- I had lots of support.)
The other key survival skill was keeping myself
busy. I didn't have free time when I was in high
school... was involved with all sorts of activities (and certainly I got picked on in all of them, but I decided I was mature enough to not need to deal with things at that low of a level). I had little to no non-organized social interaction with my peers. I (somehow) managed to be content even under these circumstances.
Now that I'm out in the real world, sitting at home all weekend isn't really acceptable, and there aren't organized activities unless I take initiative. I'm only slowly starting to come out of my shell. Now that I've started to realize what I did to myself, it seems somewhat non-human, like I was a robot or something. I don't really know.
Finally, I think I must say that these kids that seem to have started this discussion hardly seem to fit the "outcast" mold (if there is such a thing). I mean they had _friends_ (even if only each other) and stuff. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
Posted by Dante_Aliegri (dantealiegri@dustpuppynospam.org):
The Canadians do have most things that the Americans do, except the culture that has spawned rap, MTV, and M.Manson. The simple fact is that these kids would have done the damage whethere or not guns were easily available. They made pipe bombs, and they had to make those by hand. That implys that they had enough rage to build the supposed 50 bombs, (or part of those, if they did have help).
You spoke to my heart. This is exactly how I feel right now. After being a nerd for years, I graduated and got a well paid job. Now I have money, cars, friends, girlfriend. I am going to the gym, wearing contacts and designer clothes. All I dream about in highschool is reality. And I am the unhappiest man alive. I am all empty inside, all shallow. I won, but I changed for that. And I hate the new me. And I gave my ideals away for this. At 24 is like my life doesn't have any sense, isn't going anywere. I am dying inside.
But I'm changing back. That is my only salvation. I got a huge buch of science books, a fast computer at home and an Open Source project for my free time.
Whish me luck.
I have experienced the same problem at school, it made me immigrate to another country when i finished school.
Now I will start a plattform for and by the affected people.
Read more on: this site
Sometimes I find it difficult to remember all the things that happened during my stay in high school. I kindof push it to the back of my mind. This happens to so many kids - not just your stereotypical geeks, but anyone perceived as different. In my case, I had skipped a grade, and was younger and smaller than the other kids.
I remember a guy who literally did his best to drown me in swimming class, while the coach/teacher just laughed and told me to 'get tough'. This kid was probably a good 50 pounds larger than I was at the time. I was so frustrated: my only choices were to absorb the abuse or drop/fail the class.
I remember walking home from school and having a guy I somewhat knew, drive by and flip me off. I kept walking, and hear his car screech to a halt. He comes running up yelling 'why'd you flip me off?'. Yeah you read it right... accusing me of what he had done. He proceeds to take a swing at me and I sorta ducked and said I don't want to fight you man. He hits me again on the chin - didn't really hurt and I dropped my bag and took a step back. Then he gets back in his car and drives off.
Sure enough, the next day everyone was talking about how Greg supposedly 'kicked my ass'.
Sometimes I got so mad I wish I had just beat the snot out of him. But looking back, I'm glad I didn't because his friends would've either assaulted me later on, or robbed me, my car, or my house. All the while with not a single school official believing me.
I'm fortunate that this type of thing just made me more determined. Determined to prove that I was better than all these punks. After I graduated I was appointed to the U.S. Naval Academy. Some of you may not like the military but at least understand my accomplishment. Best of all I got to finally go to a school where everyone is put in their place from the very start. Everything you get there is earned, and they don't put up with any bullshit.
I'm not saying schools should be run in a military fashion. But if the administrators would take more of a no-b.s. attitude, things would be alot better.
- Mark
Here's a salon article full of quotes from psychologist types and others. On the second page they've got a few nifty paragraphs from Dan Savage, who as usual sees things very clearly. It's really worth a read.
It doesn't really apply until you're over 18 and out of high school.
To those of you below that threshold - please keep this in mind. 'They' can do all kinds of things to make your life a living hell if you don't play by 'their' rules.
This is right on the button. In schools, from a childs perspective, there are no rights, no defenses, no recourse, no options. Any transgression is "oh boys will be boys". I was chased with a fucking knife in jr. high by a guy who absolutely would have stabbed me if he had caught me. He did this for no reason, for a kick. It didn't even occur to me to tell anyone. As far as I was concerned all that would have done is clinch the deal and make certain that I was dead. Going to school is like living the Lord of the Flies every day. If anybody ever screwed with me like that as an adult I would bring the legal hammer down so hard they would never see daylight again.
On the bright side, if the media has correctly picked up on one thing, it is that groups
and individuals routinely abused for laughs by the mainstream are
being empowered by the internet. In the 21st century, you bully the
meek at your peril. Unfortunatley for Sporto, he can't be sure anymore that Poindexter isn't invisibly bristling with connections to some incredibly weird/dangerous information/e-friends.
When I see all this blubbering going on in Colorado, much of it smacks of mourning the overturning of the social pecking order. "Not only are they taking the primo jobs, now the geeks are taking away our rights to shit on them in school!" Boo hoo hoo.
not a flame, just redlining.
I completely agree... I wore a trenchcoat every day for 3 years when I went to college (which is our equivalent of the last years of HS here in Quebec), and if someone tried to tell me I couldn't wear it to school after some incident involving trenchcoats, I'd flip them off. Even in the wake of a tragedy such as the one in Colorado, nobody has the right to tell any student what to wear or not, as long as it's reasonable. As a matter of fact, sending those poor kids home telling them to change clothes is an infringement of basic human rights.
From what I gather from everyone elses post I was pretty damn lucky at my high school. I was a nerd and a geek and all that and was very proud of it. During my Junior and Senior year me and some friends forms a "club" called Nerdfest, where we got together each week with our computers and had a lan party. It would usually just be 10-20 geeks getting together and just to play some quake and magic. We even got our group picture in the yearbook one year even though all the editors were the cheerleader/prep type. Overall high school was a pleasant experience. I was just wondering whether anybody elses high school was as geek friendly as mine. It was just a normal 1000 person public high school.
Check out the cnn web site they are discussing this now!
. . . strong values, tolerance for others . . .
Q: What does a Liberal Arts grad say to a CompSci grad?
A: You want fries with that?
Are you trying to associate liberal arts (e.g. an interest in Robert Browning) with bullying? With heckling, exclusion, etc.?
Why?
One way or another, fuck you, okay?
I'm saying this with B.A. Eng. Lit., a job writing C++ code, and a trunkful of bad memories of being shat on and ostracized in high school. Apparently by your standards I'm still a useless asshole anyway, because I dared to learn things that don't interest you.
If I were as much of a prick as you seem to be, I might mention that you're not any kind of a "grad" at all. But the fact is I can't stand the whole idea of ascribing worth to people on the basis of what credentials they have. Credentials don't reflect much. Apparently, one can have "good skills [and] a good career" without going to college, if you are to be believed.
Let's take the Academia vs trade-school divide down to the highschool level;
I feel the same way. It seems idiotic take an institution designed to train kids for trade schools, and try to make it also educate kids bound for college. In most schools now, the college-prep kids are to some extent segregated from the others, but I've often thought that they shouldn't even be in the same building.
Still, there are very serious problems with this. We'd be establishing a semi-hereditary caste system condemning kids to one particular future at a very young age. Who decides which "track" to put kids into? And when? Their parents? That sounds nice, but the parents don't have to live with the consequences; the kids do. Or do you want to give school administrators the power to decide who goes where? Okay, all of you who were badly miscategorized in school raise your hands. I was. Until they gave me an IQ test I was considered average. In the course of forty-five minutes of easy questions in third grade, I was re-pigeonholed from the 50th percentile to somewhere in the high 90's. Zap! You're smart now. WTF did that prove, anyway? I didn't fit in as a "smart kid", either.
The more you pigeonhole kids, the more you will mischaracterize them. The solution is not to build a set of categories and try to predestine kids to success or failure. A lot of "nerds" would end up getting thrown in the wrong bin, believe me. And then they wouldn't just be stuck with the losers for six years of high school. They'd quite possibly be stuck with the losers for life.
Kids from affluent backgrounds would end up in the "smart" group more often than they deserved it, and poor kids would end up in the "smart" group far less often.
IMHO it is no more in the nature of "trade-school" kids to behave abusively than it is in the nature of "nerds" to do so. The solution, if any, is simply for those in authority in schools not to tolerate kids terrorizing each other. Nobody has terrorized me since I graduated from high school. Gee, go figure. Teachers and administrators in schools have a better idea of what goes on in the school than police do in the real world, so why are the police so much more effective in dealing with antisocial behavior? Becuase cops are at least willing to try to do their jobs.
(BTW I'm suddenly reminded of something I probably haven't thought about in ten years -- in chemistry class, some kid behind me used to flick my ears and stick me with his pencil, etc. The teacher ignored it. One day, I'd finally had enough and I turned around in my seat and clocked the fucker. I was a wuss and I probably didn't hurt him much, but it sure got his attention and he left me alone after that. The teacher mostly ignored that, too, by the way, although he did give me a big, encouraging smile. Was the entire incident really necessary? IMHO turning around and punching somebody in the face in the middle of class is abnormal and disruptive, and should not be necessary. At least I wasn't penalized for defending myself.)
Reading all these letters and responses has brought SO many memories back over just the last twelve hours...
Being slammed against the wall by my 5th grade teacher and doing pages of sentences for getting a drink of water...
Hitting back at a kid who had been bullying me for over 10 years got me arrested, but that kid got away with about another year of treating me like crap...
Principal stopping people from using rubber bands to hit me with paper clips not because it was wrong, but because if I got hurt he'd actually have to do something...
Having a 3rd grade class news paper I made taken away by a popular girl so she could run it and get credit...
(this still haunts me, at 25 I'm afraid to make/do anything I can't destroy quickly before anyone else gets it.)
And high school... not even the other rejects wanted anything to do with me...
Had to disguise who I was to get on some BBS's even...
Being attacked by 2 black belts in the bathroom with my back turned...
I had to fake a breakdown at my father's death (he ran out on us, I didn't cry at the funeral) just to get any relief...
Almost dropped out when I was 16, didn't, wish I had... not like I'm gonna get into the military or anything...
Hell, I lerned nothing from any of my teachers after about the 4th grade (was already post-HS in all my test scores by then anyway).... Well, maybe to duck and cower really fast.
It makes me sick to have to listen to the media blame stuff like littleton on the few things that gave me any escape... D&D, music (thrash for me), computer games/online communities... It makes me cry to think of how bad it is for the outcasts now. I'm in Chicago, and know how they can overreact with security.
(sarcasm) If they're going to keep this kind of security up, they may as well just start arresting every kid as soon as they graduate 8th grade and hold HS in a prison type setting. (/sarcasm)
Not that any of us would notice any difference in how we were treated.
I knew others had it bad, but I never thought it was THIS BAD, and THIS WIDESPREAD. It makes me want to not have kids, if not out of fear of abuse from other kids, then out of fear of the abuse from the school system.
I do agree that it does get a little better in college, but even that depends on where you go. I've gotten more respect for what abilities I do have at community colleges than at state universities. Those people are everywhere, they just get their wings clipped a little bit as the level of intelligence needed goes up. (not by much, how do some of these idiots get away with bachelors degrees when they can't even speak correctly?)
I know I've ranted a bit here, but I had to do this. It still hurts all these years later. To those who have overcome the pain, God bless you; help the young ones who have to live with this. To the others who still ache, brothers (and sisters), I'm glad to know you're out there...
I don't feel quite so alone now.
I'm the guy that made the original posting, and I just want to make sure that my point is clear -- I'm not trying to say that because I could run that let me into the jock club, it was that through running I got to see things from both sides, and I would urge the geeks out there not to over-generalize that all jocks are jerks.
Running for me was a way for me to be able to associate with people that I otherwise had no contact with. I discovered that they were basically the same as me, we just didn't have much contact outside of sports. There were still a bunch of real jackasses among the jock crowd, and likewise there were jerks among the geeks, but I met many great people on both sides and would urge everyone reading these postings not to forget that for the most part we're all the same.
Ryan
I've been lurking about and lapping up the discussion, remembering my own school days and the thrill of being a black bird in a flock of white ones. But I couldn't pass this one up:
"We do not accept this behavior in adult life, why should we impose this abuse on our children? "
The latest administration scandals are graphic evidence of what we *will* put up with. In this respect, adult life and school are no different.
If we were truly intellectually advanced, we could probably avoid the abuse that the "sheep" were inflicting on us. Worked for me. High school was boring but never threatening. When you can out think your opponent, he shouldn't stand a chance.
When I was getting beaten up in middle school, the perp managed to convince the administration that I was bugging him just as bad (BS!) and so they called it a case of "mutual harassment". And did nothing.
/love/ to see a lawsuit against a school district AND the officials involved in a case where they were made aware of student abuse and failed to take any action.
I'd
Short of that, they'll keep looking the other way, like they _always_ do. Remember: the schools (public anyway) only care about keeping people in seats, otherwise they lose their funding. Kicking a student out for being a bully means less $$$ for the school.
Cynical of me? Maybe. Getting slammed into lockers daily for 2 or 3 years will do that to you.
I'm almost done with my undergrad work, and I still have scars from middle school and high school.
But understanding these kids can help keep this from happening again. Granted, these were sick individuals, but the bigger problem is _why_ they were so sick- namely, persecution and torture from the "popular" cliques. If you look past the mask these kids wore, you'll see the faces of every asshole jock and bitchy cheerleader sneering back at you. These kids are a product of our society- may we all rot in hell for what we've done.
> I'm almost done with my undergrad work, and I still have scars from middle school and high school.
Hell I'm 40 and just reading about this whole thing on slashdot these past 2 days
has been giving me creepy flashback to the terror I had to live thru in high-school
in fact just writing this makes me shudder
I thought all that crap was a closed part of my life - now I realize it never
goes away
Even though I'm from Norway, with a school system that isn't as fixated on sports etc. (most schools here doesn't even have any "official" sports teams), so the difference between "normal" students and geeks/nerds aren't nearly as visible, I was picked on routinely from I was 7 until I was 14-15.
I dealt with it by isolating myself more and more, I considered suicide, but mostly I fought back. I wasn't particularly strong, but being big for my age, and extremely stubborn, I did beat up my tormentors a few times. That helped - for a while.
But fighting back in any other way only worsened the problem: At the slightest sign of weakness, someone was over me. If I ever showed a sign of being vulnerable to something, they used it.
I got through it out of pure stubbornness. The only thing that stopped me from suicide was that I wanted to prove show my tormentors that I'll be the one that wins in the long run.
I'm the one with more than twice the average income of the rest of my class. I'm the one who travel abroad, paid by my employers. I'm the one who's 24, and already in my second management position in a medium sized company, while they rot away as clerks in local shops, or still are struggling through school.
So I got out okay. But after reading the mails Katz posted, and the comments here, I must say I feel I understand the shooters...
With a system so reminiscent of fascism, so thoroughly opressing, with so few ways out, and no support from parents and teachers, I would have taken extreme measures too.
In Norway, that wouldn't have meant a massacre, because I wouldn't have had access to guns. In a society where guns are so readily available as in the US, deaths are inevitable.
Killings like the one in Colorado will keep going one. Of course parents and teachers are scared. The shootings that have already occured has set a precedent: Someone has dared fighting back, even if it means loosing their own life. And they're right in being scared about geeks and nerds and other outcasts.
The problem is that they're attacking potential ticking bombs, pushing them closer to disaster, instead of trying to understand and help..
Instead of stopping future bloodbaths, they're doing the groundwork for more.
Sure, I fantasized about killing my tormentors. I'm glad I had the barrier of not having access to firearms, as well as the strength not to try to find other ways, and the strength not to commit suicide.
But I can't stop feeling just as much sympathy for the shooters as for their victims. Because the shooters were victims too: It was parents, teachers and fellow students that killed them, and indirectly their victims.
Very good point. I kept thinking pretty much the same thing when I was reading all of the testimonials. It's one thing to realize that the youth sucks and that life isn't fair, it's another thing to start hating people because they're in a certian group.
I'd put myself in the inbetween category too. I was always a geek throughout school, but my high school was a really good one where most people accepted me and everybody treated me humanly.
It disturbs me when I read all of the people saying that they are smarter than everyone else so it doesn't matter what they think. That's exactly the same arrogant attitude that people have when they make fun of someone for being different. I doubt that people who say that are really smarter than everyone making fun of them, it's just that the people in the cool group were too influenced by their friends to learn things for the fun of it.
So the Right Thing is to realize that the people aren't making fun of you because they are assholes. They've been molded by the some forces as you and the way that they deal with it is try as hard as they can to become someone in the cool crowd. That's a really hard thing to do, but at least work more on ignoring them and making yourself a better person than thinking you're superior to everyone else.
>My dad and I have been trying to get to the trench coat mafia site to >see what it is about becasue my dad is worryied because i listen to >Ramstein and KMFDM. AAnd I own an overcoat. Does anyone know the url?? >
following is My response. I hope this kids dad read my post and maybe changed his mind a little bit.
One of the guys had a web site on aol that has been removed. There may be another one somewhere but if so I do not know the address. as far as listening to industrial music, I have read reviews with Rammstein, and they appear to be just a bunch of guys having a good time, and playing around with image and public opinion. They even admit that most of what they do (both onstage and musically) is not serious (I wish I could find the magazine, I'd give you an exact quote. Maybe later tonight when I get a chance to tear the house apart.) and kmfdm is considered by many industrial music listeners to have become more of a dance music group than industrial anymore. I encourage your father to please not judge a cd only by the picture that is on it's cover. cd cover art is nothing more than marketing, and does not necessarily represent the ideas expressed by the content within (for that matter the lyrics sometimes do not either. Irony is a very popular tool in popular music today. I'm thinking specifically of Rammstein here.) Trenchcoats do not indicate anger or evil in any way. Some people just think that they look nice. let's not read into this situation more than is actually there. Do not allow the errors of two misguided teenagers affect your ability to experience new ideas. just scroll down the message board and you'll see a long list of people who play first person shooters, listen to aggressive popular music, occasionally dress in a manner seen as unfriendly by others, and were "picked on in school." To the best of my knowlege none of us have ever killed even one person, much less 15. -Martin
We see it in racism, in political witchhunts (witness McCarthy in the 50's, or the Nazis), in the way society always legalize and condone hatread aganst groups of people.
Often, it is because people tend to generalize, and either judge a group because of the actions of some of them (because the group is easily identifiable because they way they dress, act, their race, or whatever).
If you are attacked, you will, perhaps not consciently, start looking for cues to generalize, to be able to avoid people that are likely to attack you again. Often that means that you'll
You may want to be sure of the effects of banning guns. There have been studies done that show reasonable evidence that if the government were to do that they would start a civil war, and the military would be split in about half to help fight it. You think people are suffering from death NOW?
Not to mention, it would be impossible to enforce it. There is billions of guns out there, and they are easy to get ileagaly. It would take the guns out of the hands of the people and put them all into the hands of the criminals. Look at our governments' own prisions! They can't even keep guns out of there! What makes you think that they could keep them off the street????
The fact is, if a teacher or two had concealed carry permits and had a gun they could have fought back. They could probably have taken out the shooters before they killed all those people.
i agree completely. wimps.
Nope, we're angry (or, rather sad) that we had it bad in high school, and even more sad to see that things haven't improved yet for our younger brethren.
Hopefully, this outcry will eventually get the attention of the media, and something will happen eventually
Yes some people had more fun than others, and every where you go in life you will encounter people who will torment those different than themselves (see /. postings about Microsoft).
Nothing against having fun, but please don't do it at the expense of others. And please, leave Microsoft out of this, this is not relevant here. Microsoft is not being picked on for being the underdog, but for being the bully.
Geeks have their cliques to, it seems you are all pissed because D&D and video games didn't seem to help you get laid in high school.
Only those lucky enough to go to a large schools had cliques. At the smaller schools, many geeks found themselves to be the only geeks around
What the hell are you trying to do? Everybody already knows you can slashdot slashdot, why doing it again? To prove CT's measures are uneffective? To make him buy a better box and a twice as fast inet connection? To make him use two geographically far boxes with codafs (which is still alpha)?
Or is that your own little revenge to everybody that used to criticize you?
crap - they made pipe bombs easily for the same reason they got guns easily:
The NRA has lobbied for and received laws that make it easy to buy guns
AND BLACK POWDER.
That's right in the US ANYONE can buy and store up to 50lbs of
black powder without a permit thanks to the NRA.
The bombs and the guns are just different sides of the same
thing - a small vocal minority in the US who glorify
weapons
The facts are simple : no guns = no way to shoot someone.
Of course :
a) guns are not only to blame (they are a subset of the problem)
b) it is close to impossible to ban them in the US
c) you can kill with other weapons (usually not as easy as with an assault rifle anyway)
BUT guns are still part of the problem. Even if it takes 50 years to remove all guns from the US someone has to start the process of removing them. If not for our kids, then for their own kids.
Remember that all the deads were shot, so guns had a role in it. Guns advocates can look at the problem in all the way they want, those kids were shot anyway - by guns. Eliminating guns might not solve everything, but it's one thing removed from the process of shooting someone.
I have some disconnected thoughts that I want to pass on, forgive me if I get off-track...
P.S. For any high schoolers reading this -- the trick to getting out of most confrontations, IMHO, is the eyes. I had a friend in high school who had it cold -- he'd get in a situation where he was threatened and his eyes would just go 'dead.' There's no other way to describe it and it scared the shit out of the people threatening him because they thought that even though they might be able to win the fight they'd never win the war because he'd be waiting for them. The great thing was that this kid was really gentle and would never have really hurt a fly. Image was everything in this case.
In high school, I was intelligent, creative, independent, and seen as being pretty damned weird. Unlike most of the people recanting their horror stories, however, I'm not traumatized, I'm not hurt.
Why? I attribute it to the early realization that my life is important in a context I can control, not in that of some self-created social strata. Jocks, nerds, geeks, stoners - none of that meant anything to me. I created my own existence outside of the bullshit everyone else exalted and had the self-confidence to believe in myself. Some jock makes fun of you? Big freakin' deal. Live your own damn life and quit letting your self be nothing more than a reactionary.
One of these killers drove a BMW to school, had
a girlfriend that bought him some guns (sounds like
a loving relationship), and went to the Prom...and
had a large group a friends...
I'm not convinced they were so oppressed... I
think too many folks on Slashdot are PROGECTING
what they went through in school on to these murderers.
I would have to agree. Assuming America purged all guns from within it's borders, there would be no shootings. Period. Sure there would still be violence (anyone can pick up a pen and stab you), but I at least stand a good chance of defending myself.
Now good luck on finding how to do it.
The world is still run by idiots. Gtaneted, the worst idiots wind up flipping burgers, but the next tier up are in management positions, forcing you use Microsoft software.
And then there are the smart (clever) a******s, who go into marketing and politics, do a good job of pretending to balance the budget, and then decide to re-create the Vietnam experience in the Balkans.
Bottom line: we're vastly outnumbered. That's the downside of being in the upper panhandle of the bell curve.
Maybe in the afterlife, the idiots will be in hell. And wherever the idiots aren't, that's heaven.
More people have been killed by governmental genocides than crime this century. One of the necessary conditions for a genocide is a disarmed population. Your "elimination" of guns would only eliminate privately owned guns. What is the difference between the United States and Kosovo? Why can't that happen here? If you are unarmed you cannot defend yourself against tyranee. This is the great lesson of the second amendment to the US constition. A governement is more dangerous to its people than crimanals are. If the governement cannot trust its citizens with guns than why should the citizens trust the governement with them when it is made up of people? Everything this students did in relation to this massacre was illegal. They obtained the guns illegally, altered them illegally, possesed them on school grounds illegally, made bombs illegally. The laws are already there to "stop" this from happening.
Right now it is illegal to carry a gun in so much of the United States that only criminals carry them.
I give you a choice: only criminals and the governement with guns. Or everyone with guns.
(keep in mind that these two students in Colorado were criminals)
I know what I chose.
try checking out this:
www.jpfo.org
I would be inclined to agree, except for the fact that the all-black-freaks in my day listened to Bauhaus, Joy Division, or they wore jean jackets listened to Slayer. The video games of the day rarely got more violent than loderunner or Zaxxon, and the worst thing these kids ever did when they felt disenfranchised is they killed themselves.
Parents reacted by suing Ozzie Osbourne, and sending their kids to self-esteem classes.
What is the change between then and now that kids decide to take a few folks with them before they end it all. I have to place some blame with more violent entertainment.
I don't think it has anything to do with the kind of kids who use the entertainment as a substitute for a real life.
(Any other Rush fans here?)
Or a two-handed sword with a +2 to hit? Your wording caught me as akward, alpha geek. :) But to your message... do all geeks hate all jocks? No. But usually most, especially the alpha jocks.
Hitler himself made the same claim you just did.
He said that Germany was the first civilized country to outlaw gun ownership and in the future other countries would follow suit and crime would be lower.
Of course this is BEFORE he millions of people died in his death camps and at the hands of his army.
New York City and LosAngeles have some of the MOST restrictive gun laws in the United States as Does Washington DC. So by your logic they should have the lowest murder rates in the United States and yet they have some of the highest.
If the low murder rate is due to very restrictive Gun Control than how come Switzerland doesn't have extremely high murder rates even though they have universal gun ownership?
The differences are due to societal issues.
However there were still over 55 Million people killed in genocides in this century. Every one of those genocides happened after restrictive gun control legislation was enacted in those countries. How many people have been murdered in North America by criminals with guns this century?
The problem with personality tests is that most of them were designed in the late 60s early 70s and they run to hundreds of questions.
Who would mark these tests?
There are several personality inventories that have no scientific merit and are distributed by religeous organisations.
If you are requested to take a personality test, ask who gets to see it and in how they plan to mark it. These tests can be considered part of your medical history and are therefore confidential. NOBODY can have access to these scores without your (or unfortunately your parent's) consent.
Post some names for any tests administered so far. I'll hunt them down and sniff them out.
Another problem with these tests is that as soon as you are submitted for one you are considered a 'problem / patient'. Ask for a written explaination of why you are being made take the test signed by someone in authority. Who knows, someday you may get to sue them for trauma.
So if guns are so bad howcome defensive use of guns PREVENTS between 600,000 -2.5 Million crimes every year?
Yes lets get rid of guns and make rapists lives easier.
I don't think I like that idea.
Why don't you post a sign in front of your house saying that it is a gun free zone and there aren't any guns inside?
Glad to see the mainstream press is covering this. What these kids in Colorado did was evil, they let hatred consume them. Let there be no mistake about that.
That said, student on student violence is an unrecongized bastion of blame-the-victim prejudice. If a person said, she was raped... she shouldn't have worn a short skirt... they would be seen as ignorant.
But it seems routine for teachers, parents and counselors to see a harrassed and bullied child as requiring "counseling" as to how to "fit in" which means do/wear/say what the kids who will beat you up tell you to do/wear/say, or they will beat you up. I can see a kid saying "Duh." That's like telling a kid who's beaten up for being black to be more white.
And whether or not these two in Colorado are gay, it seems that rumors of their homosexuality were all the were required to get them "gay-bashed".
You may save some lives by exposing this. There should be no school-sanctioned cruelty in our world.
Please post info on slashdot about when the coverage will be on. Let's see if the slashdot effect shows up in the ratings.
Unfortunately without some form of 'moral education' (I feel terror just typing the words) or an amazing sea change in the nature of people, theer will always be a persecuted minority.
It's those monkey genes. In a pack there are the top dogs and the underdogs. The top dogs are on top because they are alpha males and the underdogs get persecuted.
If you think there is some way to stop this human behavior then please post it. We'll send it to CNN and ABC and whoever else made a lot of money from the story. Maybe they'll put it out on the air. I doubt it. Reminding the monkeys what they are is never popular.
Our decendants should not have to suffer for being different in any way, but they will. Our only hope is to give them the tools to cope with it.
Gun Nuts: It's people that kill, not guns....enforce current laws don't make new ones...
Gun Control Nuts: It's Guns that kill, not people.....see see see, look at colorado...lets ban everything!
Teachers: these kids have too much time on their hands, they need more homework--more that the normal 3 hours per day...
Hackers: yep.....been there, done that!
Politicians: is clearly at fault. If you then the problem will be solved.
Church Leaders: This shows the need for revenues^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H going to church. You should Donate^H^H^H^H^H^Hcome on sunday and help us celebrate.
Animal Rights Activists: forget the kids, save the whales!
Principle: ok, let's see, they wore trenchcoats, they played d&d, and they ate hot-dogs--Suspend anyone wearing trenchcoats, playing d&d, or eating hot-dogs...that should get more funding for our school...besides, my pay raise is coming up....
I (too) was shoved around during HS, tho certainly not to the extent of some people here. I was fortunate to have understanding teachers and parents that fostered my interests. But that doesn't mean that I didn't want to beat the living crap out of the bullies that made my life miserable. They took (some of) my self confidence & my individuality, made me feel less than human. And lets not forget all the social events I was excluded from.
Today I'm a Java programmer, travelling the world earning large $$$ and having a great time doing it. I've a beautiful girlfriend & I've never been happier. How did I make this transition? Simple. I forgave those responsible. But its not so simple - when you've got so much (deserved) anger against those who push you around, its almost impossible to forgive. But I realized I had to do it, not for them, but for myself. It was only after forgiving that I could put the past behind me and get on with my life. And what a life!!
Too few people acknowledge that this was not a mass murder but a suicide.
I found it absolutely disgusting the way talk shows portray geeks. I was watching Jenny Jones last night (before I dozed off to sleep), and the episode was about giving geeks makeovers. They had these three absolute sluts dressed up in skimpy outfits sitting on chairs judging how geeky these people were. What really pissed me off is how they portrayed all of them as complete losers. Most geeks I know are not at all losers. They just love computers, but they are still able to communicate well and dress in decent clothing. What television portrays is so fake it's not even funny. They were basically putting down all the geeks.
The Littleton incident had nothing whatsoever to do with "assault rifles"; the shooters used shotguns. If anything, this made them MORE deadly, not less; the last several shooting incidents using so-called "assault rifles" had fatality rates well under 50%. This is consistent with the design goals of military weapons and ammunition: they are intended to create wounded who will further burden the enemy. Note: WOUNDED, not dead. A kill doesn't take anyone else out of action.
On the other hand, hunting weapons are designed to kill. If you would prefer the off-kilter kids of the USA to get Remington Wingmasters because they cannot obtain a far less-deadly M-14, I have to question both your intelligence and your intentions.
Yeah and Bill Clinton is just waiting for all Americans to be defenseless so that he can become dictator for life and screw all the interns around !
Are you serious or what ? Can you be SO paranoid ?
I give you a choice: only criminals and the governement with guns. Or everyone with guns.
Did my choice : I live in France. In all my life, I have never seen a gun, or ever had a friend or a friend of a friend that was threathen by a gun.
And I don't feel like the victim of a dictatorial governement. I reasonably trust my governement. It's like marriage : if you don't even trust your wife, your relationship is seriously wrong. If you don't have a minimum of trust in your governement, you probably should change of country or start a revolution. There's no point living in this paranoid state of mind.
Remove them like we've removed drugs?
Face it, another law (banning guns) will not make
a difference. There are already several laws that
apply to shooting up schools full of kids. They
did not keep it from happening.
This is a problem with our society. We need to
get to the root of the problems, not pass more
laws. Outlawing guns won't make any more
difference than outlawing DOOM or trench coats
or Marilyn Manson.
I'm pretty sure that Switzerland has more guns
per capita than the U.S.
From a student at a Maryland High School:
The minute I heard that the killers were labeled as 'outcasts', and 'geeks' I knew the witch-hunts would ensue. The Friday of that week, my friend said something that was taken out of context. Later that Friday several administrators, and security guards burst into the room and forcibly removed him. They pad-searched him, took apart all his stuff, searched his lockers, and interrogated him for the rest of the day. People took advantage of the situation thinking it would be funny to spread even more rumors. People were saying things like he was going to go to the USAIR arena with an AK47 and blow everyone away. His nightmare didn't even end with school; that weekend police burst into his household for a full search. My friend is the most gentle person in the world. He wouldn't harm a fly. He is also an outcast, geek, and computer expert. People take this stuff seriously. They now equate geeks and outcasts with killers. Apparently the killers were acting out against persecution. How ironic that s
One thing that just clanged with me as ///feel/// rejected...'
symptomatic of the underlying causes of
the tragedy was Gore's statement at the
memorial ceremony that, 'we need to reach
out to those who
Having graduated HS in '85, I thought things
had gotten better for computer geeks, but
I guess I was wrong...
=td=
Your speculation about the teacher (or two!) with a concealed weapon is completely wrong. There was an armed cop on campus at the time who even exchanged fire with the two kids. So if this officer who is trained in the use of weapons wasn't able to stop them, how would an English teacher who had to fish a handgun out of the bottom drawer, remove the gun lock, load the gun,
and remember to turn the safety off stop them?
See you around
HS is apparently no different now than it was when I was there. Kids still pick on each other. There is still a culture of terror and ostracism. I remember how bad it was. When I was a kid, I took out my anger in the form of violent art which my parents took and threw in the trash because they were scared I would do the violence indicated on the drawings. The counselor they had me see applauded what they did instead of seeing it as an outlet as it was. I couldn't do that violence. There was no way. But I had to have some outlet and art was it. It got so bad for one kid known for his extreme intelligence that he set fire to an uninhabited building. Now this kid was not only ostracized but also had a criminal record. I still don't know why I didn't go over the edge. For me it didn't always stop in school. There were times when my father and brother ganged up on me and jeered and laughed at me. What's that supposed to do to a kid? It makes me wonder if most parents are stupid or lazy. So they want to blame the 'net or the video games or the music. They and other adults in charge of these kids can't look at what's really happening because it really takes some effort. I wish there is something I could do but the real tragedy is that I am at fault as well. Who among us didn't pick on other kids in HS? The real tragedy is that it probably won't ever stop.
Well enough from me for now
Peace and Blessings
MNM
I can't help thinking that someone who is unable to relate with anyone at any point in their life has problems other than being picked on because they are smart.
The tragedy about school (and high school in particular) is that you are _forced_ to be there, and if you are being picked on, you can't just avoid the situation, because, in most cases, you don't have any alternative. So even if there are people making life hell for you, you have to face them, day after day, for years.
Once you are out of high school, however, you have something that you never had before: choice. If you don't like the people that you're around, you can leave. If you don't like your classmates, don't go to class. Don't like your coworkers? quit!
It is this single change, the chance to change one's situation, that is why life DOES get better after high school.
It's not so much about making it work for us as making it better for those behind us. Read here and you see it's not improved. I spoke with my elderly mother and we compared then-and-now. She was a 'geek' preferring Chemistry to Home Econ. We agreed it's worse than then in part because there's been social engineering of zero-tolerance policies, preaching of tolerance without enforcement of it, etc. There's less escape now due to policies although the Net can be a golden opportunity for geeks. I remember my brother and I having to sneak D&D around or a few friends (those that admitted being into computers) and I having to sneak around computer stuff. I recall chuckling to myself as a Senior when a peer at college talked excitedly about Chaos theory, something I'd read about in Jr. high with great interest.
/. for examples of causes) not exploit this as an excuse to push a politcal agenda.
The problem with making the system work is that it only re-enforces the already flawed system's 'solutions'. A bigger problem is getting into positions to guide _meaningful_ changes in the system.
Lots of these opinion makers, policy makers and 'role-models' were not fellow geeks but on the other-side, exploiting their virtual free-passes, worrying not about pummlings but pimples, not about harrassment but hair growth.
Listen to these people and they dismiss the gunmen as just 'evil', well, IMHO 'evil' doesn't just happen by itself it needs to be nurtured.
Having access to guns didn't nurture it--it was there before they had their guns--the oozing hypocracy of socially engineered, unevenly enforced tolerance policies have (among other factors). It's safe to say it was just 'evil' because that absolves many of responsibility perhaps even the parents--after all, what parent casts out demons? It's easy to be sympathetic for the victims it's hard to be sympathetic to the gunmen. I can't help but think on motivation they may have had was a longing to finally be taken seriously. After all they broadcast their intentions for a year. The root cause, imho, was despair. Such strong feelings of despair usually ends in suicide, not mass murder. Let's get at resolving causes of despair in schools (read here
Like other's here, I'm still dealing with the fallout of my early years at 25. Music (not Judas Priest but Elton John--btw, read the lyric of 'Ticking') and computing (esp. UNIX-based goings on at NeXT) kept me sane in school.
ugh.
I certainly agree that Quebec did indeed take away the right of business owners to post signs in their native language...
The War Measures Act was imposed in response to the terrorist FLQ bombings in 1970, which took the lives of innocent people in the name of Quebec sovereignty... your reference is somewhat out of context here
Obviously, completely trusting the government isn't a good idea either, but paranoia gets us nowhere... it's up to us to ensure that our rights and freedoms are protected
My advice to abused geeks - learn martial arts - study really long and hard how to defend yourself physically. When confronted by a bully the next time, beat him or her savagely. If confronted by more than one bully, pick one and concentrate on beating them savagely, ignoring the others. School is the last time in your life that you will be able to get away with beating someone savagely without being jailed. Dont do it with hate in your heart, but do it in the spirit of practically creating a world youd rather live in. Make _them_ feel the pain that they would have you carry.
Of course you can't place *all* the blame on guns, but unfortunately, their availability facilitates these kind of tragic events...
I see your points, but I simply cannot agree that gun ownership is the answer. Most other people outside the U.S. are getting along fine without them...
Obviously, you should not blindly follow government policy, but people have to be careful not to cross over from skepticism to paranoia...
Definitely ... I agree with you 100%
:)
Guns are only the tip of the iceberg...
I'd say the real root of our current malaise is our materialistic, shamelessly commercialized culture caused by a long history of cut-throat capitalism... but that's another topic entirely
I agree with you on this point completely...
but it's also important to remain skeptical instead of paranoid...
A revolution of sorts can't happen tomorrow, so we have no choice but to work within the framework of our current political system in hopes of changing it from below...
And if the US has a higher per capita non-gun murder rate than Canada, how do you explain that?
Wow... I'm sorry to hear that...
I'm in Computer Engineering at the University of Toronto and I haven't experienced any of that... everyone goes out of their way to help each other and the atmosphere is very tolerant... and very respectful. We also have quite a few foreign students which makes things more interesting too.
I love it... I'm finally being challenged and set free to explore things on my own... a far cry from the daily drudgery and monotony of high school!
Sorry, but I went to a high school of 500, and then moved to one of over 3000. The larger school was far easier to deal with. With enough people, almost everyone can find others to fit in with. And even if you can't, it's easy to get lost in the crowd and be left alone.
Wow... I'm sorry to hear that...
I'm in Computer Engineering at the University of Toronto and I haven't (fortunately) experienced any of that. Everyone goes out of their way to help and encourage everyone else, it's a very tolerant atmosphere, and the larger number of foreign students makes things much more diverse and interesting (as if Toronto wasn't diverse already!). Though, granted, U of T is somewhat of an exception since most people commute
(it's right in the middle of the downtown core) and maybe don't form the same kind of cliques you would normally find at other universities...
On the other hand, maybe I've just been lucky and there's more I haven't seen yet...
As for now, I'm very happy with university... I'm finally being challenged! I'm also finally free to expand my knowledge and enhance my skills without being alienated from my classmates. This is a far cry from the daily drudgery and monotony of high school!
Not surprising.
We come across as a violent nation that is eager to destabilize vulnerable nations -- under the slightest pretext, if it enhances our strategic interests.
(Case in question: Serbia. I'm not justifying the serbian army's ruthless campaign against serbian kosovars and guerillas. But you have to understand that this is a deep, complex, internal problem, which will need a complex, internal solution. If this perspective comes to you as new or surprising, please read about the background of US action, direct from the minds of other thinking Americans at International Action Center, New York: www.iacenter.org .)
When we are a violent nation, made up of violent adults, do we expect kids to be somehow different ?
Hope to see some thoughtful responses.
First off I would like to say that I am not the typical "Outcast" from the high-school social scheme. I am the butt of a number of jokes about taking a C++ programming class and taking hard math classes because I enjoy the work, but I've found that on the whole this does not really matter. I have several very, very close friends, none of which would do anything to taunt or irritate me. I can't imagine how hard this antagonism would be to deal with without people surrounding me that understand; I suggest that if you are one of these outcasts that you try to find someone or a group of people that understand your situation and you. In my opinion, the only thing that can make High School an enjoyable experience is to go through everything alongside other people.
Actually I know I have won. I might not make
god like sums of cash. But I do know that when
I go to work everyday, I am going to be happy to be there. Not just for the money, but becouse I like being there. Very, Very few of the jocks working at McDonalds or in middle management can say they actually like how their life of fitting in has turned out. So, that is my real revenge on them. I get to enjoy life and live it to its fullest. They get to suffer in mindless jobs, trying to fill the void with material goods bought
on credit.
Ohh, there was one other good part.
Way back during myu first week of college I finally got to pay back a particularly nasty member of the old high school football team.
In high school, he spent his time in the very small world of our high school. I was forced to look elsewhere for freinds. Somehow most of the
other outcasts from the other area high schools
ended up going to the same places. We were all pretty good freinds by the time college started.
Alot of us went ended up going to the same college. So, the end of the firts week came, I
was on my way to the bathroom in the student union. He walks up to me like all the shit he dumped on me for the previous 13 years never happened, and asked what I was up to. I looked back at him and said " right now I am walking to the bathroom. Later I will walk back over there,"
pointing to a table full of people laughing and having fun " when I get there, you wont be there"
He looked devistated, he knew no one in the big
scary university. Finally the tables had turned,
and it felt good.
The ACLU is a bunch of thugs who only stand up for a person's rights when it suits their political agenda.
BTW, the schools in this country went to hell when teachers lost the ability to control their students.
The American government doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to earning the trust of U.S. citizens. And no wonder - it has become little more than a national prostitution ring, specializing in the sale of political favor. Further, how *can* you trust a government that classifies much of what it does as "top secret" information? It's not that the information is deserving of top secret status - it's merely a convenient way to "CYA" if something goes wrong.
I wish there were still hope for Jefferson's dream. However, he would not see the animal houses of today as bastions of anything but fascism.
If the public schools finally deteriorate to nothingness, then maybe we can start from scratch, without the NEA, without the AFL-CIO, without the screwy liberal-arts academics in teacher's colleges who divorce teaching from knowledge, without their contempt for the "intellectually overpriviledged", i.e., geeks, and without a system that trains people to be basketball and football stars and cheerleaders, despite the fact that you have a better chance of being struck by lightening than having a professional career in sports.
I was temping at the American Federation of Teachers when Sandra Feldman became president--they were discussing how to hide her true salary from the press. And the AFT is one of the more pro-education educational institutions. Were you aware that the current Secretary of Education was governor of a state that slipped from 47th to 50th in the nation in education during his tenure?
I'm amazed they don't go down to the Jefferson Memorial and spray paint dirty slogans all over it. Today's public schools befoul his memory.
The press can make you look like anything they wish. I would never, ever allow the press a shot at me in a case like this. What happens if the producer decides "everyone who feels the way /. readers do is a dangerous person?" They'll put disturbing music under the track. They'll make jittery cuts. They'll subvert context.
If anyone remembers the "sex in space" questions asked live of Dr. Sally Ride on network television, they'll know what I'm talking about.
Anyone contacted by any press producer has to be very careful not to do the community, which has poured out a lot of raw emotion, a huge disservice.
I too hated high school. What a waste of time. Anyway, my children will not go to government-induced conformity indoctrination.
1) Probably MOST high school kids feel marginalized. I believe that those who feel they DO fit in are in the minority. I'd bet that in a high school of 2000 you would find no more than 50 who felt that they fit in, were accepted and liked. Unless you are one of the top 5 or 10 in sports, academics, looks, or popularity, you probably feel out of it. Being in the top, say, 50 in one of these areas isn't worth a dime.
2) That being said, my experience is that school staffs tend to reinforce this. They do cater to the most popular, best looking, most athletic, and the smartest. I remember lots of times in high school that I saw teachers and other staff members sucking up to a group of in-crowd students so hard
that I doubt their lips are unpuckered even now, 30 years later.
3) Middle and especially high schools really are prison-like and authoritarian in many ways. Elementary school is so nice -- everyone knows everyone and acts polite and parents and children are treated as individuals. Middle schools are less so, and high schools are horrid. Occasionally in the last few years I've had to go into a high school office. It's amazing -- I'd swear those SAME mean office-ladies that were at MY high school are working working in the schools near me! Or maybe it's their nastier cousins.
It doesn't matter who you are -- they treat everyone like dirt. The first time I experienced this as an adult (I'm 46), walking into the office at a local high school to ask a question, I was SHOCKED. The women in the office treated me like scum for daring to enter their school. Since then it's happened to me in several other local middle and high schools.
If you ever start feeling really good about yourself, here's a sure cure -- step into a school office. I know of nowhere where adults treat other adults as poorly. (But then, I've never been in the military or in prison.)
4) Those things being said, I actually do think some of this is slightly better than when I was in school. Thirty years ago if you'd mentioned a child's "self esteem" to a school employee you'd have gotten a blank look. These days there is at least an awareness. OTOH, school massacres were unheard of 30 years ago and today they're becoming commonplace!! What's up with that?
5) When I was in school (back when you had to walk there barefoot in the snow, you know), there were lots of clubs. Those are almost entirely gone now, for a variety of reasons (mostly legal). I think this is a shame, because I think clubs tended to give kids something of a sense of belonging. Even if you weren't great looking or brilliant or athletic or popular, you could find a little niche somewhere in a club. Now that those are gone, all that's left to belong to are the "clubs" of the most popular, best looking, etc. Everyone else is "the out crowd."
All in all, I can empathize with the shooters. None of this even begins to JUSTIFY what they did -- nothing can and nothing should. But I think it explains it, and I hope the schools will learn from it.
I really doubt they will, though.
The two kids at Columbine High School were murdering slime, but I know something of how they felt. I am a nerd. My first 8 years of school were hell. The older I got, the worse it got. Constant teasing and regular beatings. Not only did I not play sports; I didn't watch sports of any kind. There were about four of us that were constantly harassed. And then there was High School.
My parents sent me to a college prepatory high school. It was wonderful. Half of my classmates were nerds. I had now had several friends, not just the one or two in grammar school. And then College was equally high IQ. I loved it. In the eight years between high school and college I don't think either school had a winning season in football, but they really taught how to win in life. One of the college football players was in my engineering classes. He didn't get any special treatment. The quarterback for the year I graduated became a surgeon.
I really believe the best way to prevent another shooting is to de-emphasize sports and emphasize learning.
Yes I Recognized the Larry Nivin Reference
wadX@yahoo.com
I knew someone like Tanya...
Her name was Karen.
I never had the courage to ask her out.
I never will.
She did not survive.
I didn't even have the chance to attend her funeral... Her family kept it private.
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However, reading these messages (notably literate, too!) reminds me that my college experience, one whole fall term, was a wrenching experience that I really never got over with. At least, I became an electronic technician.
I discovered the MIT Radiation Lab. Series around sophomore year in high school, and it was a lifetime inspiration. From it I learned electronics quite well before my senior year. When I got to college (an Ivy League place), I was almost desperate to do something useful in a real lab.; no way. This was before Sputnik, and there was no flexibility in the curriculum. There was no place for someone who was ahead of the prescribed schedule.
Thank God I didn't experience anything near the social torture today's independent thinkers do; I was the class "brain", but not ostracized.
It could reasonably be said that my whole life has been decades of underachievement. I'ts good that I believe in reincarnation, because I think I'll have another chance. However, I'm not too hopeful that I'llbe able to understand the real fundamentals as well as I do in this incarnation, but don't borrow trouble.
===
Is the USA collectively nuts? Do we think there's no need for uncommon ability to think?
===
Some of my thoughts...
===
What I wore didn't matter; it does to today's young folk. I can't help wondering, though, why they want to wear things that are likely to be misinterpreted. I know I don't know the answer; it seems to be "borrowing trouble".
>Forget banning guns. Just ban the sales and >distribution of ammunition
Please, as if gunpowder is some new high-tech invention that can't be produced in the garage.
And brass and lead are real hard to come by.
I went through a lot of what has been described here. I moved around a lot (12 schools in 12 years). I encountered one school district where I was a minority in several ways. I was interested in computers and reading and was not as sociable as the others. Also, I was one of less than 5% of the student body who hadn't been in that school with the others since Kindergarten. I was picked on and physically abused by the other students and the only thing the administration did (even when a 2 lbs rock hit me in the lower back) was to tell the students to knock it off.
You get the idea. I agree that there should be absolutely no tolerance of any bullying behavior, starting from the earliest years.
The most basic human right is to be left alone, and that needs to be absolutely enforced. That is the failing -- and the understanding of that divides those who "get it" from those who don't. Those who don't get it will propose "coming together" and "socializing" the persecuted. The persecuted don't necessarily want to be "socialized" any more than someone wants to have a different religion forced on them.
You still should be pissed to have been forced into a closed hellhole environment with those people. I am just pissed that society convinces everyone how necessarily "socializing" it is, when it is such a hellhole for so many people. It isn't "just life" like the social platitudes would like to convince the masses. Life is what you have now -- the ability to get the hell away from those people and be with people you value. School is just a hellhole like a jail where crap is tolerated that would not be tolerated anyplace else.
What happened in Littleton is proof that gun control is a stupid waste of time. It was pointed out that one of the guns used in the massacre was actually a gun that had already been banned by Congress. The only thing gun control does is help Big Brother know which of its "Law Abiding" citizens have purchased guns. It won't stop the sale of the black market guns that are used in crimes.
How about we make "Proud Quake Player" buttons for our webpages, buy T-shirts etc from the companies that make these games, films and music, and be proud of the things we enjoy!
;)
We have nothing to fear, we know we're geeks, we shouldn't be afraid to flaunt it!
I reply to your post, because your statement was the clearest, but it's a thing I find in many posts. You say:
"I would have never used a gun-- that would have gotten me caught!"
I find it sort'a frightening, that (the way you put it) the only thing keeping you from shooting people, is the consequences. I got bullied too (although not much), and I really felt the hatred, but I never thought of getting even this way, because it felt wrong, not because of the consequences. In some way, you are closer to the actual killers than I am, that's the way I feel about it anyway.
Am I the only one with this view?
I'm from Spain. I've been reading the threads and my understanding is that this behaviour (bullying, spitting at people, general alienating) is very common all throughout the US.
Well, it doesn't happen in Spain, and as far as I now, Europe in general.
I'm a geek (30 years old now), have geek friends and have a job as a programmer. But I never came across anyone being alienated for liking computers, staying on line or being different. Actually it's kind of cool to be different in spanish schools.
So there you go, look outside your small american culture. You are on the WORLD wide web.
an armed guard that exchanged fire with them? are *you* afraid of Mall Security?
Listen you fucked up gun-toten maniacs, freedom
is preserved by participation in the democratic
processes of this nation not by stockpiling
weapons. How long would you gun lovers stand
up to a artillery barrage or a line of tanks?
If it comes down to violence to protect our
freedoms its already too late, we lost and the
only ones to blame is the ones who thought that
buying a rifle rather than voting or running for
office would protect their freedoms. Idiots.
YOUR RITE. ALL THOS NERDS THINK THEYR HOT SH*T BUT THEIR A BUNCH OF F^GS. ME MISELF AM A FOOTBALL JOCK AND ROMANTICALLY ATTACHED TO ME SISTER AND EVERYBODY LOVES ME AND I DONT KNOW WHY THOS GEEKS COMPLINE SO MUCH.
To adapt too well to an evil environment doesn't help one function in a more healthy environment. I had to unlearn a lot of conditioned relexes when I finally had the privilege of assocaiting with intelligent, sane adults.
The eye thing is good, though. Better: good sucker punching skills. Nothing gets you respect in high school like loosening the teeth or flattening the nose of someone bigger than you. And if it's entirely without warning, and if afterwards you act as if nothing had happened - that can really spook them.
I'm posting this because I can't think of a better place to begin. My life has begun, and has seemingly ended with the net. I'm 25 now, and I have nothing to show for what seems like a patethic life. Anyway, I want to tell my sad story, in the hopes that someone out there, a Good Samaritan as it were can at least point me in the right direction.
.58 average. My parents gave me the choice of going to a local community college, or getting kicked out of the house. I went to school. I hated it.
I am a Cuban-American, which is a nice way of saying I'm an American Citizen who doesn't identify with being American. I learned to spean Spanish first, and I never properly adapeted to being American. My formative years are very confused and very blurry, I think I remember being intelligent, but I was always getting into trouble with authority figures, wheter by calling them names, or having this need to make them feel stupid. I distinctly recall various events leading up suspension, and many, many, many frantic calls by tortured school administrators to my parents because I was "difficult" I was never evaluated or tested for any type of learning disability so I don't know... Maybe that's part of it.
High school was, difficult. If you've seen "Something about Mary". You know her retarded brother Warren? That's what it felt like to be me. I cried for a month after reading Ordinary People, because I thought that suicide was the best way to go. I didn't want to live, and I knew nothing was worth it. I never got around to actually killing myself primarily because I couldn't find a graphic enough way. I wanted something with explosions, that were guaranteed to work. None of this choking to death or shooting myself nonsense. I wanted something dramatic...sensational.
I'm fat, that describes me. High school was a fat person's hell. I mean, I wasn't Jabba The Hutt, but I was close. I was at least 60 pounds overweight throughout high school. The football people loved it. I was perfect to beat up in the locker room. I played for a single season, I did a lot of tackles, and I suffered through 2 weeks of football camp. I would always be last place in the running times, last place in number of tackles, and last place in anything. I ended up crying to the head coach, and I don't remember much more. I was curled up under the covers afraid to come out at that dreadful place. At the end of all that, 3 months later. I was barely able to keep up with the slowest runners on the team. And I got very good at accepting physical abuse. Fist fights in the locker room, headbutting lockers, that was easy. It was easier than dealing with reality.
Anyhow, that didn't last long. I had already discovered girls, and oh, great was my woe. I was under this mistaken impression that girls would like someone who was fat, if they were good at football. People on the team even told me as much. Anyhow, freshman year came and went without a single date, or even anyone I could even ask out. I pined for what I thought was the promised life with some girl, somewhere. It never happened. To this day, I still pine for Karen Ficken.
I did a lot of shop-lifting that summer. I stole every single Science Fiction book out of Waldenbooks near me. Whole bookshelves worth. I got caught by Mall Security near August, and they let me go with a warning. I at least had a friend, in Marilyn, a grammar school classmate who was somewhat antisocial, and we viewed this as our escape. She was a friend, and romanticism never blossmed. A couple of weeks after school started in September, she disappeared to Florida. Supposedly to be with her Lesbian lover, Tara.
I got a job, working in some Dental Office somewhere. Part time, after school. I sould suffer through the humillation in the hallways, and being a social outcast and I thought that if I had money, "chicks" would dig me. Never happened. I don't remember much besides setting up a BBS (you know, a Bulletin Board System), those quaint things that people did back then. I was rude, and obxnoious, and had a lot of other rude, online friends, who thought the same way. We did the usual pranks, lit up pentragrams in gasolines in school parking lots. That type of thing. I lost touch with all of them later on. I never knew what happened to any of them, I guess it was better this way. At least they couldn't pin down anything on me.
A couple of months went by, BBSing day in and day out. Never going out on weekends. I mean, sure, there was the occasional attempt to go to a dance, and try to talk to someone, and get laughed at or something. But I always went back to it.
Anyway, Sophmore year ended, and I worked in a factory over the summer. That was fun. I got yelled at, and beat up in the parking lot by these big black guys because I was making them look bad. I would hide in the rolls of shelves, and take naps in the scaffolding of a 3 story building. Hiding 20 feet above the ground seems to make you invisible.
That summer, I hacked my way into some local college, and discovered Usenet. Whoa, and IRC-ii. On what was to become EFnet's #bondage, I discovered many friends. Inanna, Kiran, Justice(JRJ), Crimson, Elf, Akasha, (I know I have my times mixed up here, because I was on for a while). I can barely remember the names of them all. People I talked to, almost daily. They were more real to me, than life itself. Their stories, their history, I lived my life through alt.sex.bondage. Downloading the newest story was the highlight of my week. Reading something new was, more important than any political story, or news article. Truth be told? I did an awful lot of sexual self-discovery through the wonders of alt.sex.binaries.erotica. I remember lots of fights, and people fighting about one of the bots on channel. Something about the "Great Banning of the Five". Who the five were? I only remember Inanna. I remember her being very high-strung, temperamental, and passionate about people she liked and cared about. She didn't really talk to me that much, and I tried to stay out of her way. I guess with practice, being meek comes easy. So does impersonating someone's email address. Live a lie, long enough, and you become the lie. Days, Weeks, months passed.
Junior year came and went. People did drugs in school, Mesc, and Pot, were the drugs of choice. I became known as the piss-drinker. I mean, sure it was diluted and all, but the reptutation persisted. People would point at me, and laugh. It doesn't matter where I would sit, people would just laugh. I discovered smoking, and booze. Soon, every day was a good day to drink. Sure, go to class bombed? Fun fun fun! I mean, sure I was still on IRC, but...well... I thought I was cool.
The year came and went, I didn't bother anymore. I read, and I was online. Meeting real physical people was a pretty big waste. I had a senior prom. I drank 2 liters of Absolut. I puked all over someone else's limo. I had to have a friend fix me up with someone, because obese old me, couldn't get a date if the future of humanity depended on it. I remember being so happy to graduate.
Ah, but then the story takes a morbid twist. I applied to school after school. My acceptance letters all came late. A college in Tennessee, and 2 local schools. Not a single school I wanted to go to, replied. I found out later, that my parents simply didn't mail checks with all the forms. They figured spending $50 for UCLA was pointless. I mean, sure, we can't afford it, so why bother.
I ended up going to a state school. I met Jenifer, there. She was a nice girl from Conn, we talked a lot. I tried to hit on her endlessly. To no avail. I don't know. Maybe there was a reason for it. I ended up meeting a Matthew-Sweet lookalike, who I hung with a bit. He was uh, great with ladies, and I was terribly jealous of his skill. He had dates, and was always going places. Me, I'd try to join a club, and be too timid to even apply. No, my nights were spent to a higher passion, reading stupid computer books, and figuring out how to play games. A few months later, I discovered I could lie, and stay home and be online all day and never go to class. I was able to do it for almost 2 years. Wow, I did a lot, and talked to a lot of people. None of them probably remember me anyway, so it's probably a blessing. Thankfully Deja News has none of my work archived (Whew). That would be really embarassing.
Around the same time, I started to hang out with my Sister's boyfriend a lot. He treated me like a brother. He showed me how to drink, how to smoke. I don't know, for a while there...*Gasp* I might have almost been cool. I had friends, places to go on weekends. It was probably the happiest time of my life. I did pot, I did coke. I went nightclubbing. I even bounced for a while. I vowed to make everyone in high school pay for the crimes they committed against me. My war against humanity was in full force. I vowed to see them drop, man, woman and child bow before me, as I sliced their throats. Death, Happiness, and rage filled my days. Liquor, and carnal pursits my nights. I worked in a go-go bar. I pitifully flirted with the dancers, while I secretly plotted their demise.
Anyhow, my sister broke up with him, on August 9, 2 days before my birthday. I ended up crashing my car after driving 65mph in city limits, and I nearly killed some other drunk driver. I was able to remain friends with him for nearly another year. I can remember after that, how the doors would come crashing down, and people wouldn't return my calls. I sank into a pit of misery and depression. Too apatehetic to take over the world, too lazy to even clean my room. I wallowed. I was kicked out of college for having a
I ended up meeting my first girlfriend. She was, a lot of things to me. She was white, she drank a lot. We faught a lot. I had sex. I used her for sex at first, and came to lover her after time. I tied her up. I got to do all the kinky things that festered within me for 20 long years. I abused her, I poured hot wax on her. I spanked her, I gagged her. I beat her, and I liked it. I enjoyed causing pain on her, and the fact that she liked it too, was kinda cool. Slowly, I started to come out of my shell, but I never became the person I wanted to be. I stayed with her because I was afraid, and I loved her. Afraid of being alone again, and Afraid of never finding someone else like that.
We grew, she moved. I changed her. I became a hardcore shoe fetishist. Money was no object for shoes. I downloaded pornography all day long. Gigabytes of it. Entire collections of buxom-beauties. 20, 30, 40 years old. It didn't matter. I tried to fill the hole in my heart with empty pictures of long dead women. Betty, Eva, and Whitney were close to me.
I changed jobs, and we stayed together. I discovered new torments, and Armbinders, and ball gags, and spreader bars, and everything else. New things waiting to be discovered. But the closer we became, the more she complained about how I felt empty. That I didn't romance her, that I didn't feel like I loved her. And it's difficult to feel like you can love someone when you can't even accept yourself. We faught a lot, nearly constantly. I hated a lot of what she did, she loved me through and through.
I changed jobs again, and got a job working for a major telco with a substantial salary. Technically my skills were without peer. Professionally? My attitude sucked. I couldn't get anything done that involved any sort of people skills. I lavished her with expensive gifts, and shoes. At one point her shoe collection was over 200 pairs. I brought shoes weekly. I lusted after them. I would follow women around, and ask where they brought them. I would buy any magazine that even showed a pair I hadn't seen before.
But through it all, we stayed together. Now, she went to the same community college I went to, and things went downhill. We never saw each other. I'm feel like I'm being dumped, but she explained that I needed the time to find myself. She didn't want to waste anymore time with me, if I was so fucked in the head.
I'm angry and I'm sad. I'm crying daily. Just hearing the sound of her voice brings me back to being fifteen. I mope, I'm angry, I'm rude. I'm cursing people on the way to work. I've been picking fights. I haven't yet gone to a cop and tried to get shot, but I think it's coming. She's still there for me, as a friend, but I feel so hurt. I could go on, but I'd rather not break out into a crying plea for her to take me back.
That's why I'm here now. I'm still employed and I still have health insurance. I mean, the quality of my work has gone to shit, but I'm still there. I need help. I need I don't know. Everything. The chance to erase my life and start over. I need therapy, and maybe more. I don't know. Drugs, Prozac, Thorazine, and maybe Ritalin. I don't know. I'm angry about everything, but I know that I don't fix myself, I'm going to die. Either Die a lonely and bitter man in 70 years, or I'll die in a brilliantly spectacular death somewhere on a highway somewhere.
I'm kinda lost on therapy. I know I can't afford it, but I can get it through my insurance. I'm posting a list of all the people on my plan. Hopefully someone who's scene aware can read it, and tell me if any of these quacks can help me. I understand that I'm a deviant, but I'd like to be able to go to someone, who can understand that I'm kinky. I don't know. I want to be normal, but I want to be kinky. I want to be skinny, and not fat. And while I'm working on the fat, I can't let my soul rot. I can't go online like this, and I'm turning to the one audience that helped me before in my time of need. I really don't know what else there is to say, except Thank You.
-An anonymous loser
Looking back now. It's been several months since I wrote this. It's rather disturbing to note that I'm not alone. I've read over 200 description of people's lives that sound just like mine. Honestly? Am I ashamed? No. Am I bothered? Yeah. I have the occasional regret that I'd be able to go out in a blaze of glory. Can I understand what happened? Oh, definately. But honestly? They should have chosen a better selection of weapons. I'd have rather they lived. They'd at least get to be legends in their own time. As opposed to be merely being called "the hated", or whatever term the media is giving them.
If anyone's keeping track of email addresses.
I'm at
anonymous_loser@yahoo.com (A very appropriate nick)
I know I mailed them a letter and sent them a link to this story. I am wondering if anybody else did as well, or if when i see the story air I can think I'm partially responcible :)
-SEMM
Like most other Americans I was shocked by what has happened in Littleton. Yet I knew that sometime it will happen because of the seriously devalued and damaged social and moral system in the United States. First of all I believe that taunting of kids and tollerance of that is deeply wrong. I also believe that just because these killers were taunted, we can put them in the Jon Katz "social" outcast category along with the geeks. Jon quit phylosophy and learn how to configure pppd. Those two kids LOVED Hitler and listened to some transexual talking to repeating music for his record company (and watched movies with Leonardo Dicaprio in it, rot in hell that dirty bastard, die die die, why didn't he sink with the titanic). Those kids have a big difference- the slashdot readers did not go out and try to make statement "just to be different" while those called to be abused in every way possible- who the hell would think of wearing a trench coat to school on a sunny day in hicksville colorado!. Quite simply. The two killers were mentally disturbed, neglected and may be abused by parents. The music they listened and the way the dressed, the video games they played and the movies they watch were not the cause of the tragedy they were just another sequence of their mental state.
Now about atheletes taunting kids that "don't fit in". Atheletes are not all like that. Those who are like that are the people who will be working at Denny's, and wouldn't get into a profesional sport (to play basketball at a level higher then high school, I am afraid you will be to be able to spell that word). I know several atheletes. One of them is one of my best friends (he plays water polo and swims at school and at a local college). He never teases anyone and tells me a lot about those stereotypical atheletes- the big and heavy muscled jocks with a girlfriend who squeaks instead of talking and wears a short skirt with a slit. I found out one of them has a perfect 1.0 GPA and if he didn't play sports he'd probably be kicked out of school for graffiti, so he plays sports so he could "hang out and socialize".
And last and not the least like many other geeks out there I have been teased, have been made fun of. I found a simple way- never hang around people that make fun of you. I take classes that those peanut brained assholes don't even imagine taking (a language on a second level, a honors math class) and I don't hang out near them (in the open yard or in the foot ball field), I hang out in the library at the computers or with people that I find interesting and nice and that find me interesting and nice. On rear moments when my path croses them and they make a joke about my Russian accent or me having difficulty with athletic tasks (I gotta start working out more often), I simply say the good old phrase - "fuck you" or "blow me" and get away from them without seeming upset. Once, actually one of my athletic friends beat one of those jerks up (that jerk wasn't even an athletic, our school requires 1.0 gpa to join a sports team) when he started making fun of my bike, but I didn't ask him.
- gearing up for rejection -
O pick yourself your own label
So you seem to be a nice person. You've seen both sides. I have seen both. Even other sides to the whole issue as well. I was originally born and went from 1st-5th grade in Belarus (a former part of Russian Empire and then U.S.S.R.). I was a good student most of the time. I was the second fastest reader in my class, second to a girl (girls are always better off academically then boys, do I see another Jon Katz essay, well gotta go back to the topic). I was made fun of, but that was all different. I was a rich Jewish person. I was one of the two Jewish people in my class and I'm not sure if the other person was Jewish too, it just seems this way because of the last name (Kahan). Many people hated me. Goths? I was the opposite of the Goth culture and pretty much still am, plus Goths and metallheads (not offend any Metallica *fans* (fan != crazy fanatic)) seem to be the Russian main stream right now. Jocks? Our school didn't even have a basketball court to which you could shoot ball, the rim was broken and basket was gone, so there were no sport teams in our school. The reason was that I was this rich Jewish capitalist with one way ticket to the United States. When I came to US, I was able to complete ESL (English Second Education) program ahead of almost everyone in my class. The problems started when I came into regular school. At first everyone liked me, but then I changed. It was 6th grade. I believe it was puberty + defiancy + plain stubborness. I started to hate the common good kid: well dressed, good grades, loved my parents and teachers, never smoked or drank, like video games. I would try to defy all the standarts: I never wore shorts to school, I talked loud, I bragged about how I picked up a cigar butt when I was 5. Everyone quickly turned to hate me. I now got a third name: Faggot. Then they started to deploy new tactics against me: I can't play baseball and basketball! By the end of the school year I became a complete outcast. Teachers still loved me because I was a good student, but they no longer listened to me. One time I called this one student a jack ass, because his name was jack, while he kept calling me a faggot. The teacher told me to stop calling him names, not to him to stop insulting me with claims of my homosexuality which had no bases. Then I understood that it's not the society that is bad, it's me. I understand that I was a fag and a morron. I started to settle down. Our family then went back to Russia for the summer and when I went back to United States, I was in junir high. Most people forgot about me and became my friends once again, plus I've gained more friends. If only I haven't understood my mistakes. One of things that I did is that I became a geek. An image that I hated during my outcastment: a skinny kid, who likes computers and types without looking and talks about weird stuff with the "good kids" at school. I changed totally and if I hadn't disaster would have struck me.
p.s. i don't believe that there is such thing as a jock or a nerd. you have proved my point. let's not put people into classes, everyone is a good person and can change who he is and what he is associated with. i do need to however start working out. also why turn of the computer? just turn of the monitor and kill pppd.Gory details available here.
So my proposal - the proposal of just another Anonymous Coward - is a mass reporting of school crime. Pick a date - sometime pretty soon - and all across the country, thousands of geeks report these crimes to the police.
And remember - anyone who's ever pushed you into a locker or hit you. They are a felon. Don't forget it! Make them pay!
Yep, homeschooling is the way to go. As sad and tragic as these tormenting stories are, I also
doubt that much learning is achieved if the students are busy tormenting each other. Teachers
say homeschooling is bad because students don't learn social skills. It seems that the social skills taught in the schools stink!
Personaly as a person who graduated high school, it was one of the most emotionaly battering events of my life. The "popular people" really did opress others for being diffrent. I really dont have a opinon on how to change it because the system is so embeded into popular culure.
Gee and then you wonder geeks go crazy and shoot assholes like you. Tell me did you even make it out of the 1st grade?
shol hui, nashel hui, podumal hui, nahui emu hui? vzyal hui zahui, vykinul nahui!
While the stories are interesting, the problem with this post and your previous one, is that you are preaching to the converted. The people outside of our 'little' group are the ones that need to hear this stuff. We already know it
Posted by Nericus (nericus@usa.net):
:) I've since mellowed now, comforted in the fact that Junior High & High School put enough emotional damage on me that I no longer feel pain, hurt and guilt. Usefull in this day and age, but the downside is that without guilt, there is no remorse...
I totally agree... I myself am a scarred geek, and I'm considering taking a VERY large chunk of bandwidth and distribute these messages to every teacher and school official I can get my paws on the e-mail addresses of....starting with my own hellhole Lamphere High School. The only thing that kept me from snapping was a female took interest in me as a human (a friend) and pulled me from the brink, I had gone to the extent that I was getting close to Littleton myself, except I'm much more creative.
I'm tired of people saying "nothing can be done" about the situation. Bullshit!!! There are a lot of things which can be done, starting with you. If you have a child, pay attention to your child. They need and want guidance from you, and if you don't provide it, they'll get it elsewhere.
If you don't have children, volunteer! Help out at a youth camp (it was one of the best experiences I've ever had), the YMCA, Big Brother, etc. If your siblings have children, lend a hand! If your friends have children, lend a hand!
Children practice what they are taught-- teach them respect and discipline, and they will be respectful and diciplined. Teach them fear, anger, and hatred, and they will be fearful, angry, and full of hate.
Remember: no matter how well trained or well-mannered the dog, if you kick it enough times it WILL bite. But even a mean dog can be tamed, and taught peace.
I challenge you now: make the world a better place, and earn your keep.
Christian E Becker
Posted by Dante_Aliegri (dantealiegri@dustpuppynospam.org):
I've noticed several posts from the previous Katz article (only read a few hundred) and one from this article saying the poster 'hopes they rot in hell'. Which I find quite... interesting. They were probably already roting in the preverbial hell of High School.
After almost ten years, I finally figured out my answer....(Although some people may think it cheesy)
/., I was bright and well read when I entered Jr. High. That started it. Daily teasing, girls flirting with me only to quickly switch to insults. Etc.
:) ) And so on.
I went to high school in a little town on the northern fringes of New York. It was a dairy farming community. Like so many people at
I didn't think it could get any worse.
Then I started high school. I made a few friends, and things looked better. We played D&D, listened to "Alternative" Music (which really was in those days.
One day I found a nasty, nabby old black oprea cloak in a closet, and I was dared to were it to school. And, of course I did....
Then the real teasing started. Accusations of drug abuse/dealing (I didn'ts) abounded, also baby-killing, satanism. But, sadly I'm just a really stuborn person and I didn't give ground. I continued to wear the cloak, more because of their ridicule than in spite of it.
Daily I was abused, used maxi-pads would be slapped on my back. People would walk behind me chanting "Babykiller" over and over and over.
That daily chipping away can really wear on you.
By the time I made it to graduation, it felt like I was crawling up to get my diploma. Not because I was defeated, but because I was tired, exhausted from constantly defending myself.
Then college came(beautiful ole CMU), I continued to wear the cloak, but suddenly nobody noticed....
I made friends, got into music, etc....
I still remember college fondly, but that is not when I won.
I won when after therapy, a new direction in my spiritual life, and a life threatening experience made me give up my anger.
The kicker was one morning (about a year after I graduated) I woke up with an uncontrolable shaking up and down my left hand side. The violent tremors continued non-stop day and night. My doctor told me it could be 1) cancer, 2) Lou Greighs(sp?), or 3) a viral infection of my nervous system. The first two would be fatal, the second temporary. For the next six weeks of no-work and medical testing I had nothing to do but think about how I might be dying.
I came to several conculsions. 1) All in All I'd had a pretty good life. 2) Life is just simply too short. 3) I wanted to stop being angry at the people who had scarred me so badly.
Somehow, when I made that realization. When I put 2 & 3 together and realized life is to short to stay angry, I realized I'd won.
Now I can't wait till my 10 year high school re-union (next year). I genuinely want to see these people again. Not to show off my beautiful soon-to-be-wife, or talk about my "cushy" software develpment job...
But to get to know them, for the first time.
Posted by Dante_Aliegri (dantealiegri@dustpuppynospam.org):
Thats interesting that a teacher allowed that.
Posted by Perkolater:
...is a better understanding of ourselves and each other. Administrators need to stop worrying about lawsuits and start worrying about kids. Kids need to stop harassing and bullying each other for being different and start talking to each other for a change.
As I mentioned in my post in the previous Hellmouth post, I went to a "magnet" school in North Carolina, which bused all these "gifted" kids from the suburbs to a school in the ghetto. The "gifted" kids, predominantly white/asian, got the advanced courses, and the base students, predominantly black, never got that opportunity.
During my first years in high school, I was singled out by some of these so-called "gifted & talented" kids as an easy target. I got harassed and verbally assaulted plenty. I contemplated suicide. I found myself identifying less with those GT kids (excluding a few fun geek circles) and more with the base students. So I hung out with them more often, and I developed an appreciation for rap music. (This was back when Run-DMC was just hitting the mainstream and Public Enemy was considered a menace.) This made me even more of a pariah to the GT kids, who couldn't figure out why this white boy preferred hanging out with all these black kids instead of them -- even though they were pushing me away in the first place.
Of course, that was before I started using rap music in class projects. I turned Beowulf into the baddest B-boy on the block. I put Chaucerian meter to a Public Enemy beat. I used rap twice for Calculus class projects. And I made A's just about every time. The teachers loved it, the base students thought I was cool, and the GT kids, even though they still didn't get it, left me alone. A few of them even thought enough to start talking to me like a human being.
It's okay to be different. If we were all the same, life would be bloody boring. Until kids and teachers and administrators stop singling out anything different for persecution, what happened in Littleton will happen again. Rome is burning. Put down your violins and do something.
Posted by ChilledWillie:
...just make sure you are saying the right thing. I am what some in the 'caste would lable a "geek" but clinging in groups of geek/ non-geek will not solve anything. it just gets more involved in the problem, sets a line in the sand and dares the other group to cross (read the book "The Outsiders") I recomend the Library to any teen (who is having troubles, in school- or out) look for Miyamoto Musashi, "The Book of Five Rings" (or spheres, or scrolls)
To everyone out there, this is the perfect time to stand up and say something!
He was born, and lived in Ancient Japan and he knows what it is like to be a teen in strife. Winning duels from the young age of 13 up to his twenties. "flow like water" he teaches "flow to mold any vessel that contains you" this is not to say CONFORM! but to appear as one who has CONFORMED. Win by desception, fool your enemies. this isn't saying to take swords to school and carve your classmates up like a roast, but always use YOUR HEAD! never let them get to you. wear your scars proudly, for it is through the pain of youth that adulthood is made strong. I am going to run this into one paragraph as I am just laying ideas down as they come to me.
I think I am partially right, but always partially wrong... prove it by giving me feedback! I'll hollah at you latah, my people!
ChilledWillie
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love (relaxing@home.com):
You're culture spawned SCTV, Allanis Moanasette, and Michael J. Fox. yet you have the audacity to riticize the US?
If this were Canada or the UK we'd all be begging big daddy government to ban unauthorized sale of plumbing supplies.
LK
Most countries in eastern Asia have this similar system. High schools and colleges as well.
My parents thought this system was unfair, that's why I am living in the US now. It is not nice to be told, indirectly, when you are 12, that you are not smart enough. I think a child should be given as much encouragement as possible to do the best they can.
I think the US system is a good one. I think the bigger problem is in the American culture. It is so anti-intellectual. Who the hell came up with names like "nerd" and "geek" anyway? We should be called "gods" since we are the ones creating new technologies and innovations so that people's lives are more comfortable.
While I was in school in Taiwan, I see none of these problems. Smart students were admired and praised, and everyone will work their ass off so they can be the smartest. This creates a lot of competition (and stress for the students as well, but I am digressing here.)
Just take a look at the disproportionatly large number of Asian students in America's universities. Most of these students are either immigrants, or have parents who are immigrants. Most Asian families have a strong commitment in getting their kids the best possible education.
Video games, internet, and what not have nothing to do with the violence you see in the real world. Just where do you think the majority of the video games in this country came from? Now take a look at Japan's crime rate? Hmmmm....
Most jocks are too dumb, and their fingers to big to be able to hold a game controller. And gee, I wonder who are the violent ones.
Well, sorry for being unorganized, but I was just typing out my random thoughts on this topic.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love (relaxing@home.com):
>>Would you rather that we learn nothing from the Littleton tragedy and that there be *no* reaction to violence, threats, or the poor taste of wearing a trenchcoat to school the day after a massacre?
Poor taste? It wasn't the trench coats that killed the people. It was the crazed people who wore them.
I wore a trench coat from the time I was 16 until years after I graduated. If I were still in school I wouldn't have hung mine up because some people I didn't know died. I didn't stop wearing my camo BDUs when the Oklahoma City Federal building was blown up either.
We didn't do it, we should have to face punishment for the two who did.
>>Teachers are scared by it and are afraid of their students.
GOOD! Many teachers at my alma mater were apathetic jerks. they hated me & kids like me because we knew more than they did. If they now treat kids who are like I was with fear instead of disgust, I say all the better.
>> I have no pity for anyone punished for saying something like this because they have no common sense, and no respect for the fears of others.
Nobody has to respect your fears. They're yours, you deal with them, not the rest of us. If you're afraid of spiders, do you expect me to not wear a spiderman T-Shirt? If you're hydrophoic do you expect me to not walk in the rain? If your ophidophobic should I not wear my snakeskin boots?
Wake up, and then grow up.
LK
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love (relaxing@home.com):
Re check your facts. The bombs caused more damage than the guns did.
Then again, we Americans are sticklers for details
LK
When I first heard about the Colorado High school shootings, I wondered how long it would take before the audience at /. would start in on the "woe is me, I too was a high school geek" spiel.
/. postings about Microsoft).
Are the people posting these tales of woe actually angry because they had it bad in high school, or are you pissed because someone else had it good. Everyone from the top of the social strata to the bottom felt awkward, inadequate, yeh... even geeky in high school.
Yes some people had more fun than others, and every where you go in life you will encounter people who will torment those different than themselves (see
Geeks have their cliques to, it seems you are all pissed because D&D and video games didn't seem to help you get laid in high school.
Posted by SoapDish:
I come from a total geek background. I got ridiculed in MS and some in HS. That was all 6 years ago. I had intentionally forgotten those experiences. Reading this article brought them back to the surface.
I had to forward it to a friend and get their responce. Since they didn't come from a background of ridicule they responded as though it was completely bogus. I went on to explain my experiences in school and finally they came to understand.
My point is. I don't think the "In crowd" will really come to understand or except this way of thinking just by reading it in a magazine. Why should they? It never left a scar in their minds, or their backs. How can we truly get them to except this blatent problem?
Posted by khaziel:
I'm a senior in high school, and a major geek. The wierd thing about my school, and partly the area I'm from, is geeks are respected by many students. We're not "wierd" or "freaks" or any other misleading classes; we're just the "smart kids." Oddly enough, the dumb, conforming, non-thinking jocks are the ones looked down upon. Granted, they're not beat up, or taunted, because thay could literally beat us to a bloody pulp if a geek messed with them. -nota bene- I *hate* high school, and can't wait to get out of it, not because I was beat up, or taunted, but because I was outcast for not needing to apply myself to pass thru school. The four years of hell I have endured (not without mental breakdowns from the isolation, etc) will be well worth what my future will bring. I just hope that everyone can turn out happier, more adjusted, and more successful people in the future.
One word of advice to anyone out there who is not like us geeks: Make friends with anyone you suspect is a geek, or might be having a hard time through school. I know from experience, being friends with just one nice, popular person can make a huge difference in the life of an outcast. Don't try to make them be like you, just make them feel welcome around the so-called "norm"
Posted by Perkolater:
I don't buy this argument. Sports in and of themselves are not inherently evil. It's only when major sports become too important that they hinder education.
Your example of the football team getting more money than the school itself is a good example. The problem is that the football team makes so much money, and because of that, it gets more support. This sort of materialism has ruined football and basketball from the top down, and the importance placed on those kids as money-makers permits them to believe they don't have to live up to the standards of society. We all know that Darryl Strawberry is a sad joke, but we put up with him because he like watching someone do something we can't -- in this case, hit a 90 MPH fastball 420 feet.
What we should worry about are that other, less popular sports (tennis, swimming, cross country & track, gymnastics, etc.) don't get shafted in favor of major sports that get all the press. A lot of kids whom you and I wouldn't consider athletes participate in lesser-known, lesser-funded sports for a variety of reasons. Building self-esteem is a biggie here. I tried out for the baseball team my junior year in high school. I didn't make it, of course, but the other guys on that team looked at me a little differently after that, just for giving it a shot.
Getting rid of all sports in schools isn't the answer, but a few changes could and should be made. For starters, football and basketball ought to be given over to the Amateur Athletic Union (an oxymoron if there ever were one) entirely. Those sports have become inherently corrupt -- everybody wants to be like Mike for all the wrong reasons -- so there's no point in that sort of corruption interfering with our schools.
De-emphasis on athletics would help, but elimination takes it to much too far an extreme. Too many fathers and sons bond over sports for them to become outlaw activities. Besides, sitting in front of a computer all day isn't all that healthy, either. I have to loosen up my back doing *something*.
Only you Americans can concoct such paranoid scenarios...
What do you think the government is? Are they some big magical force waiting to take everything away from you at a given instant? The government is there to ensure public health, safety and well-being... and it's every citizen's responsibility to ensure open, democratic dialogue between the state and the public to work towards a sustainable future... they're people with families too...
Civilized nations have no need for widespread firearm ownership. The ominpresence of guns only feeds mutual fear, which in turn feeds the violence you see.
Toronto (a city of 3 million people) had 50 murders last year. 50 out of 3 million. How many tens of thousands of people were murdered in NY or LA last year alone? When you Americans achieve that kind of ratio, then you can criticize Canadian gun control...
Posted by joybutton:
Since I changed schools a lot (moving from country to country) I didn't belong to any particular social group and was never popular. I saw things i liked in all groups, such as the comradeship of jocks, the joyous rebelry of the trouble-makers, the intelligence of the overachievers, and the computer-savvyness of the geeks.
On the other hand, I didn't like the superficiality and narrow-mindedness displayed by the people who locked themselves into the roles of those groups. Jocks played sports and partied, scoffing at those who didn't. Overachievers had few interests other than pleasing those who graded them. Trouble-makers were rebels without cause or honor. And geeks sat around talking about geek stuff and ridiculing people whom they considered to be inferior.
I never felt part of any of these groups, but when I would associate with them, the geeks in particular hurt me the most. Every so often I think back and wish I had done something to crush their egos, to show them how wrong they were to treat me like a joke. What did I do to be treated as such? I used Macintosh. Something as simple and insignificant as preference for a particular operating system made me the laughing stock of the outcasts. I cannot begin to describe how unjust I felt this was, and letting go was not an option. A little respect was all I wanted; probably all that the Tenchcoat Mafia wanted. It's a sad statement on human nature when it's so hard to find.
No matter how fringe, every social group is a microcosm of traditional social structures, and each has leaders, followers, and assholes.
-------
Unbeknownst to his friends, Bob was just a pile of rotting flesh.
Read my plight:
I am now 19 years old, not much of a geek anymore (i'm an econ
major now), but my life in high school was horrible. I'll tell you a
couple stories --
I was in boarding school, which I guess made things worse (it most
certainly didnt help) -- every morning everyone not a senior -- and one
member from the 12th grade -- had to come downstairs for a couple pushups
(it was a silly practice really). One day, sleepy eyed, I called down the
wrong person. As a result I was taken to a room and hit several times...
this didn't happen to other people who weren't "nerds".
Our computer admin was pretty wierd -- he didn't believe in "soap"
because of some ecological reason. As a result he never bathed,
unfortunetly giving strength to the concept that computer "stink". As a
"friend", I was also labeled smelly. It hurt a lot to have
people say "hey you've been with him up in the labs, you stink".
The greatest pain came from the girls though. I didn't have a
problem getting them -- that was always a natural talent for me, you just
have to know what buttons to push (no pun intended) -- the pain was in the
aftermath. I would often have a great night with some girl -- a night in
each others arms -- but then the next day, complete and total denial of
any past relationship with me. Then that night: "can I come over?" It was
the public rejection of attention and acknoledgement that hurt me the
most.
The students were not the only ones. In another high school, the
library teacher went through a file in my directory called mbox (obviously
mailbox). I knew she was looking only through mine cause I was a computer
geek and she was afriad I might (as she later said) "Let loose an internet
worm into our servers" (I's my name Robert???)
I decided a little playing might be fun, so I sent myself an email saying
"Mrs. XXXXXX, you are very stupid in thinking I don't know what your
doing. Quick! Lets go get (another teacher)".
She said the "lets go get" suggested a physical threat and denied that
mbox was in fact my personal mail. I had my account revoked and was
*banned* from ENTERING the same room as her for a month.
Did I ever wonder what it would be like to give some of these
people their own medicine? Sure I did, but I didn't kill them. I got each
one back in their own way -- the girl who slept with me 10,000 times then
denied it now has her reputation destroyed at her current college as a
slut. I had a friend give the library teacher plenty computer problems to
fix.
Do I understand why these kids did what they did ? Sure I do. Do I condone
it? No not really, but I'm sure some of them had something coming to them.
Was my revenge wrong and just as mean? Sure, but sometimes you have to
fight fire with fire.
Posted by CPaulT:
I say it isn't guns. It's the attitude,people.
Look at one of the worst acts of murder in recent history-Oklahoma City. Know-how and some fertilizer,and *BOOM*.
People hate enough,and they get their point across by mass murder as it's the only thing that penetrates against the flow of popular culture.
America builds it's children in a womb that stifles expression and makes the education system a popularity contest. When I was in school,people literally would not work with me on class projects because I wasn't popular. I proceeded to outscore the entire class on the exam afterwards for the course. But the worst thing was,I HATED high school. It was a source of torment,save for the few precious human beings that maintained some level of individuality. College was an echo of that,and the worst depression I have ever felt in my life.
America is a place where "teaching the children" is done in an environment of "conform or persecute". I,too feel nothing but disgust for the killings,but it comes from the simple fact that the true reason so much death came of it was that "normal life" produced a pair of teenagers that were willing to obliterate everything around them because their peers considered them nothing already.
Unfortunately,the people running the system can't see that. They already bow to the system,and it's blinded them to the true reasoning behind this massacre. It wasn't guns. Or Doom. Or Marilyn Manson. I've never fired a real gun in my life. I'm a gamer geek,a LARPer,and f**k the Mundanes. Hold the mirror up to their noses,and let them see what reality is. If they smash it,we've got plenty more where that came from. When they can look at it like the "geeks and freaks" do,maybe then you'll see a change.
Until then,the only safety is finding your own. A poor substitute for what should be,but fish don't live well outside of water and I don't live well "outside" either.
Posted by Lord Daelin:
Respondents from the Hellmouth (however the
Hell that is pronounced.. I will pronounce
it as "hell mouth") have wondered why on
Earth it would be desireable to break those
who are intelligent. After all, how are we
supposed to become the leaders of tomorrow
if they drive us insane and poison our
brains with Ritalin?
Those who ask this have no understanding of
how the System thinks. You see, the System
only needs a small number of intelligent people.
These people are taken from the top of the
upper class.
The System needs the rest of the people to
be obedient, programmable mechanical people.
The expected behaviour of a system that thinks
this way would be to try to dumb down surplus
intelligent people, which is exactly what our
System does.
You see, the System doesn't concern itself
with "freedom" or "rights". A system that
concerned itself with those things would
not promote consumerism, and it would not
persecute us.
In reality you can already see a government
that doesn't want encryption algorithms to
be available, that wants to be able to tap
everybody's phone lines, that wants to shut
down this Network, that wants to disarm the
public, and that is willing to unleash its
murderous agencies such as the BATF against young
children (as they did in Waco years ago.. In
that case the little kids were poisoned with
CS gas that reacted with the air to become
hydrogen cyanide) in order to acheive those
goals (most of the worst things they do never
get Media attention). You could see this
starting to happen even before outcasts started
going to school and getting the revenge that geeks
of previous generations had only dreamed about.
The persecution, abuse, and drugging of
intelligent people until they either kill
themselves or kill someone else fits in
with my theory that there is a System that is
trying to acheive total control. It is this
System, composed of those who control it,
and the mechanical people who do its will,
that wants us dead or made irrelevant. It
is the whole System that persecutes us,
not just ignorant teachers and preps, and
the persecution is not happening by chance,
it is happening due to a deliberate, calculated
decision made by those who control the System.
If I am right, then addressing the issue
will only result in the persecution becoming
more subtle, subtle enough so that even some
geeks will think that the problem has gone
away. In the long run, the coming changes in the
System will only solve _their_ problems, not
ours.
As long as they still give kids Ritalin,
our persecution has not stopped. In fact,
as long as the school system bases student's
grades mostly on homework, the problem is
still there because many geeks won't get good
grades, which will result in their being
put in the special class, and psychiatrists
will continue to diagnose them with fake
diseases and giving them brain-damaging
drugs to make them as stupid as everybody
else.
Posted by LadyBird:
ravenskat--
Perhaps this is unique to the USA-- but at least someone has to be behind the gun 99% of the time to pull the trigger. I look to London with sadness and see that they had another bomb go off in a neighbourhood-- why don't the Brits outlaw cars in UK since they can't seem to keep from planting bombs in them? There was also a celebrity who was (gasp!) shot in London with a gun that was banned over there!
Can you explain bombs in German bars a few years ago?
I live in Alaska. I have known how to shoot a gun since I was 7 years old. Between learning to shoot and growing up, I went to junior high where I was a geek. It never crossed my mind to use my gun, even though I knew where they were and some of the kids who teased me made me think of other ways to bump them off. I would have never used a gun-- that would have gotten me caught!
Posted by LadyBird:
I think your lederhosen are too tight, Lars. Gunmen are behind their guns and pull the triggers. Yes, they shoot, but in all honesty, I'd rather be shot at by a mad gunman than be greeted by a bomb-laden car in front of say, Harods in London. Or in a German bar! Why don't we get NATO to get rid of cars in London, bars in Deutschland, anything the Irish can get their hands on, and whatever else is out there that people could get hurt on?
We have a sick society over here and it is perpetuated by a film industry that accepts no responsibility for it's actions. I laughed at our president's comments after the bombing that Americans must protect their children from violence-- he'd better watch himself as the people who padded his defense budget are the same ones making the violent films!
Posted by LadyBird:
I homeschool my children. Last year a teacher made one of my kids sit next to the class bully and in spite of my requests to move her, the teacher would not. My daughter could get nothing done and she was in fear on the playground. The teacher talked like Minnie Mouse and would curl up her lip at me as she talked, then run off.
Another teacher bent over backwards for one of my other kids. This child had no interest in doing her work and bucked us both.
I withdrew them from school. This year I homeschooled them. They are 9 & 10 years old, are learning a foreign language, play an instrument, and are on track for their learning. They associate with the kids that I want them to associate with who are just as smart. For one child I leave to her books and she has me check her work once a day, the other I have to breath down her neck to do her work. But it works!
Homeschooling is great, and you can avoid the hassles of teachers and their control issues, and you can also know what your kids are doing!
Right on Kent-O!
Posted by Ministry:
As I watch countless news episode, every so-called 'expert' giving their narrow perspective and the out and out sensationalism this has spurred, I ask, is this being taken seriously or is it just to put points up for the tv network execs.
Having been out of high school for the past 8 years I can still recall the oh so memorable days that were supposed to be the best years of persons life. This is obviously not the case to a majority of teens today as well as when I attended high school. I'd like to relate my high school experiences and my own perspective on this very troubling topic.
My initial year of high school was at a technical-vocational slanted school. Mostly everyone got along with each other and there were no separate 'classes' or distinct groups. Obviously each person had there own group of friends that they would associate with more than others. I grew up with most of the people in this school and even though not having much in common with some I still found myself and others like myself associating with these people and vice-versa. I thought, hell this is the way school should be, and shouldnt it? This is where my illusion of a normal society ended. I then transferred to another high school to complete my education at a different school known for higher academic standards. This is where the fantasy ended. From the start of the new school year I was quick to find that the school's social make-up was completely different. Having several friends that attended this school I found myself at no loss for human contact whatsoever. But, I as I was also soon to discover was that this school was entirely divided by groups or 'classes' of students. The apparent ranking of social acceptance was as follows:
1. Student Association people (and friends of)
2. 'Jocks' and wannabe athletes (duh futbol)
3. Alternatives (those who didnt see not belonging to the upper 2 levels as being a social plight)
4. Under-wannabes (wished to be in SA or a Jock)
5. Not-so-popular people (Geeks,Nerds or whatever 'label' society saw fit to bestow on them)
Having several friends 'belonging' to the first two groups I initially saw myself being amalgamated. But seriously I didnt like these people whose sole purpose in life seemed to one of status and the like. I then began developing other friendships amongst the supposed 'lessers'. Not long after I started associating with the more alternative groups as I felt having much more in common with and having like perspectives in life. This was not good according to 'jocks' and others of whom I knew. I got comments like "Why do you want hang out with queers like them" and such. Dont get me wrong me and my friends were not make-up wearing or 'freekish', just a little less narrow headed and into music and the like in the day when alternative music and such was definitely not the norm. While others listened to and followed trends dictated by radio charts and other mass media outlets, we chose our own individual likings. I am very glad from a hindsight view that I chose this path as I feel it strengthened my inner being and made me the individual I am today. I am now a rather highly educated person in the computer technical industry.
My life in high school was indeed tame compared to my fellow classmate that by no fault of there own found themselves in the so-called lower social groups. Some may refer to them as losers, geeks, nerds, and any other name you wish to throw out. High school life for the majority of these people probably was not 'the best days of their lives'. I recall several instances in which persons of 'lower' social standing were abused both physically and mentally. From incidents of people getting physically beaten to physically humiliated by 'jocks' and the popular cool students. Verbal abuse was rampant and sickening towards many. Let's just say it most likely 'really sucked' to be them.
Why are high schools like this? I am not in a position to professionally say. I can speculate however. Parental upbringing? Physical inadequacies (and you know who are jock boys)? The grand society we live in? I would dare to say a mixture of some of these or all as well as others not mentioned.
I was brought up to view all people as one, despite a persons own background. Be it, racial, economic, religious etc etc.Are we not all the same beings at the core? This is why I am very dismayed at what is happening primarily in American high schools although I am not totally shocked. I am Canadian and I see the parallels that can exist with our U.S. equivalents.
As a personal message to those who decide this caveman ethic for social status is cool, WHERE ARE YOU NOW? I am very pleased to see many 'geeks' of whom I attended school with are now successful or on their way to being. And in many instances, I kinda like having my gas pumped by you socialites of yesteryear. Congrats to those popular persons who saw fit to finally mature and the world for what it really is or what it can be.
I convey any spiritual strength I can to those less fortunate in life having to deal with crappy high school life and say to you all to look to your future and be what you want to be. After all personal happiness and satisfaction is worth more than any social clique.
Keep that chin up!
Posted by Perkolater:
By going against what i'm saying, you are basically saying that you are supporting the product of ignorance.
Clearly, you misunderstood me. I don't support ignorance, and I agree with you that supporting athletics at the price of academics is wrong. Follow me here for a minute...
My school was thinking about cutting the fine arts departments out, like Drama, even though I was not a fan of drama myself, that still was a big part of our school and it taught you have to express your feeling though acting.
This is a good point. You can also argue that athletics is a big part of school that can teach the concepts of fair play, teamwork, and better physical health, which a lot of Slashdot readers could use, myself included. NON-REVENUE sports still teach this, because for them, championships don't necessarily translate solely into money. Contrary to popular belief, sportsmanship still exists in many of those sports.
You're being blinded by the fact that football was clearly more important at your school than the computer lab. In contrast, my school probably spent the least on athletics than any high school in the area, and a lot of very bright, straight-A students ran cross-country, played tennis, and won the state gymnastics championship my senior year. By contrast, our football team was 12-29 while I was a student, and our drama program was one of the best in the state. Our computer labs sucked, too, though.
Non-revenue sports are an entirely different animal from football and basketball, and I agree with you that football and basketball money should be funneled into academics. On the other hand, a few people ARE setting this example. Bobby Knight may be the most reviled coach in college basketball, but he also helped to fund one of the most complete college libraries in the country at Indiana University, my alma mater. Nobody knows this because his library fund isn't promoted anywhere outside of Bloomington, and everyone else is distracted by his chair-throwing, whip-snapping hijinks. Maybe there's a reason for that. The prestige factor shouldn't be ignored, either -- would any student consider Weber State, Gonzaga, or College of Charleston as viable options without their recent NCAA Tournament wins?
My point is that I agree with you that it's gone too far for a lot of schools -- for every Bobby Knight, there are five dozen Jerry Tarkanians and Bobby Fords that don't understand that school should be about education and not just money. What you're suggesting is going to the other extreme and eliminating athletics entirely, and I don't buy that. There should be change, yes, and some of that change should be drastic, but if we ignore the body for the sake of the mind, we're cutting ourselves off from a large part of our humanity.
So you are saying it's ok to allow this wonderful 'EDUCATION' money that is taken from the citizens and used to support sports in any way shape of form.
No, I'm not. I'm saying that athletics money should be funneled more to academics, and with sports like football and basketball, it isn't, and that's very wrong. However, I'm also saying that your belief -- getting rid of athletics entirely would help -- is also wrong.
Clearly, football was also more important at your school than reading comprehension.
-David, hoping you'll stop being so bitter and start seeing my argument.
Posted by Perkolater:
/.ers how much exercise they get during the week.
And how do people get to be this sort of sad joke? Might it be that one of the real-world lessons they absorbed in school was "if you're popular enough, you can get away with anything"?
You make it sound like I don't think this is a problem. Of course, it's a problem, and changes need to be made, primarily in the value system that exists in high schools.
But eliminating athletics programs entirely is far too extreme and clearly not the proper answer here. Mental fitness and physical fitness are not mutually exclusive, Stephen Hawking notwithstanding, and we as human beings can't afford to become more out of shape. Christ, I'd like to see Tacoman run a poll asking
Our problem as humans is that we like to see people do things that we ourselves can't do, and that just naturally leads to a culture of celebrity that skews our values. This phenomenon transcends athletics. What is it that really separates John Elway from Thresh? Think about it.
-David
Damn, this stuff brings back memories of high school that I had hoped I'd buried. Not deeply enough, I guess. I despised school, hated most of the people there, and suffered torment from some (most notably in seventh and eighth grade). I was different enough. I didn't do hair/clothes/makeup like the rest of the girls did. Didn't giggle. Didn't pretend to be dumb. Read a lot. The curriculum wasn't particularly challenging, but at least in the classrooms, the teacher had control and the abuse level was lower. It was in the halls and at lunch that it was worst. I used to take a book to lunch and read it, not eating anything, because nobody would sit with me and if I had a book, I didn't have to stand there without anything to do. And still, with me off by myself, reading quietly and harming nobody, they would come and torment me because they could, because nobody would stop it.
One incident in particular stands out in my mind, I was reading Watership Down (in seventh grade, nice book not-exactly-about-rabbits) and our class president and her cronies came over and asked me if 'the book was about bunnies' and if I was 'so smart' why was I reading a bunny book, maybe I wasn't really that smart after all. She slapped the book out of my hands, and it fell to the floor
(paperback school library book) so that I'd have to look at her while she abused me. Her cronies laughed, and I sort of lost it. I looked up at her (I still had a fifth-grade body in eighth grade when EVERYONE ELSE had an eighth-grade body) and attacked.
"You look really nice today, (Name). You always look nice. It's rather surprising, seeing as how your mom works as a waitress at (resteraunt). You live in a trailer, so you don't have any money. I wonder how you can afford all those nice clothes? Money like that doesn't come from tips. Is waitressing ALL your mom does? Maybe you get the money from your dad in (state far away), since he never comes to see you, he probably sends money because it's easier and he doesn't have to see you to do it. If he *really* loved you, he'd come see you, but he doesn't, does he?"
She started crying at this point, teacher came over and escorted me to the office. I hadn't laid a hand on her, and everything I said as an informative statement was the god's own truth (In small towns, you know that much stuff about other people, just nobody usually says it out loud). The only possibly not-true things I had said were phrased as questions. So how come I got in trouble? I didn't even use any swear words. I wasn't yelling. I wasn't in her face. Heck, I was the one with the back to the wall, surrounded by her and her cronies. But it was my fault, apparently because I 'made her cry'. Just because I didn't bawl my eyes out when she came after me didn't mean that it didn't hurt me just as badly, every day for months.
The only words of succor and advice I have for those still in the trenches is that the wheels grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine. Be patient.
The class president got pregnant at sixteen, currently has three children, been divorced twice (one of the husbands beat her up), lives in a trailer, and works as a waitress. She never finished high school. I have two college degrees and a phi beta kappa key. I own my own home and my own business (I'm an ISP). I make more money than she does. I have a more interesting job. I have no children and my time is my own. I have the leisure time and money for a horse. No man has ever laid a hand on me in anger, and no man shall ever do so more than once. I guess I've won. My life is better than her life. So how come I'm still keeping score? Why do I still remember, clear as it was yesterday, something that happened sixteen years ago?
Posted by Domlit:
HSchool athletic programs devour ed funding. Player and game equipment, coach and referree wages, and transportation and maintenance costs add up to a huge, draining detriment to the quality of academics in many schools, including mine (I'm a HS Junior). And it's a crock.
The glamorization of sports figures in our society is evidence of misplaced values and misguided ideals; the continued cashflow towards public school sports programs is our subscription to the backward, nonsensical notion that physical skill, or the capacity of the body, is of more worth ($$$) than the function and development of the mind.
Additionally, sports like football and wrestling facilitate violence by putting a mat underneath, or a ball between two packs of animals, and calling the ensuing battle and bloodshed a "game". I don't buy that, and I sure as hell don't want to pay for it, with the materials that are being stolen out of my classrooms, or the deficit in intelligent culture which my society is suffering.
Athletes and actresses get all the glamour; Hollywood and Superbowl, sex and violence, cheerleaders and jocks. Ed funds are spilled onto the football field like so much worship of steroid-heroes and anorexic pinups, while the biggest revolutions of the century are birthed in outcast minds, at work in computer-lab garages.
Imagine what the counter-culture might produce, if provided the means, the funds, the credit! Klebold and Harris might have belonged to a culture that they wouldn't have felt compelled to reject, and ultimately destroy. If their intelligence had been valued at school, they might not have outcast themselves from school society, or purposely sought out to worship destructive ideas.
I think I quite despise about the mainstream the same things that drove Harris and Klebold away initially. But unlike them, I detoured not unto the path of of renegade self-education in weapons-construction and arsenals of hate, but in a search for ways to repair, not destroy.
So far, it would seem that we could give smart kids a little more credit, and have so much more a chance of retaining a positive influence. Start with money, change the culture. And the counter-culture will eventually become the brainless and harmless.
-Domlit in Sonoma County, California
Posted by PROUD2CARE:
I was thrown down stairs, had books thrown at me etc. in school but I never started hating and always have hope for tomorrow. I was picked on because of the clothes I wore; b/c I talked too much and I was a "good girl". I related most to the girl who was killed because she believed in God. When I was in college I was friends with some people who were outcasts b/c they were "bad girls" what a freaky world. I was also friends with the president of our class and some cheerleaders. But I NEVER GAVE UP HOPE ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES I WANTED TO BLOW MY BRAINS OUT.
To parents I say "Play with your children no matter what their age, be their friend; Lay down some rules so they know you care and if your son/daughter is being harrassed for THEIR sake make some noise!!!! One of the other kid's parents did! Instead of taking them off the net
play their favorite games with them and if you bought the computer and the House its in,you have the right to block what you think will harm your progeny, but be prepared to entertain them with YOUR time and attention. You can't get something for nothing and that includes loving caring teens. Instead of worrying what they're doing in the garage, build something with them in the garage. Hurting people play hard to get!!! We can't afford not to reach out.
This is all so wierd; I wasn't just a Geek in high school, I was the Alpha Geek. The nerdiest of the nerds in most repects.
But yet I was happy. Sure, a couple of times in Grade 8 someone tried picking on me for who or what I was, but I fought back - hard - and they soon learned to leave me alone.
In fact, I went out of my way to try and get to know as many different people as I could; to have a foot in as many different groups as possible. To make as many friends as possible.
It takes courage to try and make friends, but it works. I could hang with anybody, and I had a BLAST. I'd happily go back to being in high school if I could.
And as I think back, I don't remember any truely unhappy Geeks. I remember one guy who had a particular religeous agenda to push (he was B'hai) who occasionally caught some verbal flak for his incessant expousing of his views, but he was respected for his courage to speak his mind, and certainly never beaten up. He may have been a little lonely, but I wouldn't say _abused_.
You know, it's cool to be happy. Surely I'm not the only one who was (and is!)
DG
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love (relaxing@home.com):
When I was in Kindergarten through first grade out bus driver actually PAID two kids something like $2 per week to keep the other kids in line. I was shoved, and screamed at by second graders when I was only 5 years old. I was not allowed to sit in the same seat as my best friend because we were too rowdy.
One of the two was a female, who when she got older was actually kind of cute. I got back at her four years later. Every time she got on the school bus I squeezed her butt. Hard. She would get on the bus and see me and sit down in the nearest available seat. She tried to enlist other people to protect her hind quarters from the biting grasp of my hand, but the most people would do is stand between us. I had long arms, I reached around them. She finall told the art teacher, who pulled me aside and takled me into leaving her alone. He was a fair man and I've got no problem with what he did, but the incompetent principal who did NOTHING to stop my abuse was later promoted to superintendant of the FSCKING DISTRICT. The guy bully moved away, and I never got to get back at him.
I hadn't thought about this in years, but now it really pisses me off to think about it. I just hope nobody cuts me off on the drive home from work.
I haven't been this mad since I was 17.
When I was young I reached my breaking point and lashed out violently against several of my peers. That got me a reputation as a kid who people didn't fsck with, at least not as much as the other so called nerds.
Having a high pain threshhold didn't hurt either. One time a guy split my lip, and loosened one of my teeth. He climed on top of me and proceeded to punch me in the face. He got one or two shots in and I was able to block 3 or 4 punches. He climed off of me and ran down the hall before he could make it the length of of a classroom I was on my feet again calling him on again.(I probabaly would have lost teeth if he came back) My tenacity impressed people, that day a bunch of kids from school came to see how I was, one of the "cool" kids came along. When I told them my side of the story he said and I'll never forget this "You're one tough son of a bitch." If felt good to have the respect of my peers, and even though I had stitches in my face for two weeks, even though I lost, people didn't really pick on me after that.
That was during my 7th grade year. We were the youngest, and smallest people in the school. Many of my friends only ran or hid from being picked on, I faced it. I got mad, and I fought. In that year I got into four fights, and I only lost one.
That set the pace for the rest of my high school career. I didn't fight much after that year, because I didn't have to. There were even a couple of times I was able to intervene to stop strong people from picking on weak people.
To drop out is to let them win, or at least to let them think that they've won. This is unacceptable. Don't take a gun or a knife to school, but keep a tightly packed roll of nickels or two in mind.
LK
While I understand the outcries against unfair treatment that are being expressed, I think it's also scary that many of these e-mails seem to express disdain and even hatred for ALL non-geeks. What these e-mails seem to ask for is acceptance and the control of their lives, yet they don't seem to recognize that not everyone else out there is against them or insensitive to them.
I come from a fairly unique position in this debate, having been on both sides. My experience through the 9th grade was that of the outcast. I was the guy that didn't really get much attention, was passed over in sports, ridiculed by other kids, and hit, tripped, etc in the halls and outside of school. Then, in about the 8th grade, I discovered that I could run. By my junior year I was captain of the track team, and everyone knew who I was. I still vividly remember the day in 9th grade where someone started to poke fun at me and one of the guys they were with said "Leave him alone, man, he's that runner."
Throughout high school I still had friends who were geeks, but I also had a lot of friends who were jocks, and I found that for most of them they weren't any different. Granted, there were those who were real jerks, but there were just as many geeks as jocks that fit the jerk category. I guess my purpose in writing this is to ask that all the geeks that hate jocks, do you really hate ALL jocks? It can be just as dangerous to stereotype one's enemies as it can be to be stereotyped yourself.
Where do you people get off claiming how smart these two guys were? I have seen no evidence of this. They were picked on, yes, who says its cause they were smart though? Maybe they didn't believe in deodorant, it doesnt matter, they are just a couple of psychos who couldnt handle the pressure.
I feel sorry for everyone that is persecuted, but sitting around feeling sorry for yourself is not going to accomplish anything. If someone spits on you, pick a chair up and crack it over their skull. They will think twice about trying it again. If you let them do it they will just continue. Problems dont go away by ignoring them.
99% of the comments here are people complaining about being beat up. Well, what are you doing about? Its time to take action. Not by shooting innocent people, but by standing up for yourself.
Reminds me of a star trek book I read once, The Trellesane Confrontation or something, where a race of people thought the enemy would go away if they didnt fight back. Well, life doesn't work that way.
I guess people in high school are too immature to accept diversity. And the teachers/administrators who work there are probably the very people who enjoyed high school in the first place (You know, the people who spout the line: "The best years of my life"). That isn't true about all teachers. I know I can name some who actually cared about teaching students.
From what I can tell, it's not until the college years that most people realize that diversity is what makes the world go round. Conformity and uniformity are the enemies of creativity, and so on.
So don't hang around with them. Take classes on other subjects, meet new people, and hang around with those people.
---
I read them, and while some of them hit it right on the head, others were just so far out of there that it made me angry. Really, Really angry. The above quoted one about taking an inventory test (I assume this means have your locker/clothes searched or something) seems to be written by someone who is way *WAY* out of reality. A knee jerk reaction it looks like.
People how make threats should get searched, period.
What a joke.
I'd agree with the tone of the letters that katz got, the people makeing the threats are being taunted into it by the jocks and cheerleaders and the other groups that feel the need to taunt and pick on those that are not as "cool" or as "in" as them.
The only friends I hung out with there were (surprise) computer nerds and the other white guys. One of my friends had to drop out in his Junior year because he got beat senseless in a downstairs hallway. I've lost count of how many times I was beaten up. I've been robbed at gunpoint twice. I reported this to school administrators, teachers, Baltimore city police(!), and it did absolutely no good. "We'll look into it and let you know if we need anything," was the general response I got.
The hardest part was having to return to school the next day. Being in crowded hallways with hundreds of people. Not knowing if that person, or maybe that one, or that one over there was the one that robbed you or beat you up yesterday.. Thoughts like "oh no, I think that group of guys is staring at me, i wonder if it could be them?!" become commonplace.
So what I ended up doing was cutting class and going home. I cut most of my Sophomore year (ending up passing by a thread) and Junior year (failing miserably). To my surprise, I was later informed by the guidance department that I was being promoted to the Senior Class next year not because of my grades, but because of "computer error").
I guess my breaking point was when I was taking a biology exam near the end of my Junior year. I was seated near the classroom door. Right when I was finishing my exam, someone from the hallway screamed "hey, whitey!" and winged a biology textbook at my head. The spine of the hardcover book made contact. The coward in the hall took off, and everyone in the class was staring at me. The room went dead silent.
At that point, it was hard to decide what hurt more, the book hitting my forehead, or being called "whitey". How are you supposed to respond when something like that happens? I could've snapped, ran after the guy, and beat the living shit out of him, but a part of me felt sorry for someone who would do something like that. I'm not really a violent person.
I came to a decision. I packed my books, stood up, tore up my exam, trashcanned it, thanked the teacher for being willing to educate in an environment like this, and walked out of the class and out the school's front doors to safety.
I haven't returned there since.
Today, thanks to the computing skills I learned at home while cutting class, I own part of an Internet services company. I guess my point is that forced education can, on the surface, appear to be beneficial, but for some people it can be their absolute worst nightmare.
I had a 4.0 GPA through high school. I wasn't an athlete, and I engaged in many geek-like things such as reading science fiction and playing on the computer. I was not made fun of though. Actually I had it pretty easy. I wasn't part of the ultra-popular group, but I was well liked. Partially it was because I made up for my good grades with lots of hell raising. I drank like a fish. (I used to chug half-pints of Kessler, for example). I was not above throwing eggs at teachers' houses or other bits of minor mischief. (Nothing serious though). But I was also liked because I helped the other kids out academically. Let's just say that with my assistance it was almost magical how the test answers appeared in some people's heads. Also, I attended a small, rural high school, with people who had mostly gone to school together for all 12 years. This made everybody pretty much get along.
But there were people who were mistreated severely, and I must shamefully admit that I took part in it. One day in my early 20's I reflected back on some of the ways I'd treated other people and recoiled in horror. That was the day that I truly realized I was an adult. When I understood that treating people so horribly was simply not acceptable. (Those who know me know I never tire of giving people a hard time, but it is always good natured - or behind their backs).
In sixth grade we had to transfer buses at one school to go to another. We all waited for the bus to empty before getting in. From time to time someone would yell out, "First one in the bus loves Tanya". Now Tanya was an extremely poor girl. She was also extremely thin. In retospect it is probable that she suffered from malnutrition. She always wore a random collection of worn out hand me downs. One particular outfit was an old green McDonald's uniform, that she was teased mercilously for wearing. While she wasn't terribly ugly by my recollection, for some reason she was considered the ultimate worst girl to be with. Nobody would ever admit they were in love with Tanya. So nobody would get on the bus. We would stand there for five minutes or longer while the school bus driver screamed as us to get on. Finally, Tanya herself (who was standing there the whole time) would get on, at which point someone would scream out "Last one on the bus loves Tanya" and everybody would rush the door, pushing and shoving to avoid being the last one on. Tanya was also subjected to numerous other forms of ridicule and I can only imagine how much this affected her. (I wish I could have just one more school dance so I could ask her on a date).
In high school there was a real classic nerdy guy named Wilbert. With a name like Wilbert, you know you're in trouble right off. He wore glasses. He read science fiction. His hair frizzed out all over the place. He was totally into computers. In retrospect, this guy should have been my best friend! But instead I was one of the ringleaders in making fun of him. (I even recall once getting a specific talking to from a teacher about this). I saw him at the 10 year reunion last summer. He was still a geek - and a successful one at that. He didn't appear to harbor any ill will - at least none that he cared to share with us.
Of course there were more. Mostly it was the girls who got mistreated. Particularly the fat ones. If you were a guy you could always make up for any deficiency in natural popularity by doubling up on the alcohol consumption. That's a sure fire route to respect.
I don't regret much in life. Well, I mean I regret things, but there are few things I would go back and change if I could. Who I am today depends as much on the bad decisions I made as the good. But if I could I would go back and treat certain people a lot better than I did. I'm not proud of the way I was as a kid, and I hope that I do a much better job of avoiding gratuitous cruelty to others today.
It is shocking to see the way the principal'a and teachers treated students, especially in the aftermath of the Colorado killings. It reminds me almost exactly of the treatment Balint Vazsonyi received when he was a student in Hungary under both the Nazis and the communists. Think the wrong thoughts and you get "counseling" or kicked out or worse. (He describes this experience in his book "America's Thirty Year's War").
But while it offends, it is not surprising. Years of Supreme Court rulings have basically stripped students of anything resembling rights. It is legal for the school to force them to go through metal detectors to enter the building. Or to randomly search their lockers without cause. Or to censor their articles in the school newspaper. Or to install camers to monitor their every move. Or to force them to submit to drug tests if they want to participate in any extracirricular activity. For someone who spends 12 years in a school with armed police guards, cameras everywhere, random searches of their possession, metal detectors, and administrators with dictatorial powers, how will they every grow up into adults who behave as though they have freedom and rights? If you spend years with school guards who can search your locker at will, why would not think the police can search your car or home at will when you get older? It is very scary what is going on. (My description is accurate for many urban schools. Soon to be more suburban schools if I read things right).
And of course that one letter sent home by the principal encouraging students to rat on friends they think are acting "suspicious". That's also a tactic straight out of the Soviet Union, where children were invited to inform on their peers and their parents. Witness the DARE program as well (a program that is proven not to reduce drug abuse at all, BTW) where in some schools the students are told to inform the cops on their parents if they see drugs. (Included are lies about how the parent will simply get help - no mention of arrest) What kind of a message is that? The government is putting itself up as the ultimate authority figure in children's lives, supplanting the primary role of the parents in shaping their children's values.
There there are the "zero tolerance" policies. This is shorthand for zero intelligence in my opinion. Teachers can simply say bring a steak knife to school to cut the chicken breast your Mom packed for lunch, you're expelled (this happened in Indianapolis). It's so much easier than using judgement. You see, judgement requires intelligence, which is something far too few teachers and adminstrators have. With rare exceptions I was both smarter and more knowledgable than the teachers in my high school. Look at the average SAT scores of education students. I rest my case.
Of course teachers also value conformity to their way of thinking. It's makes their life so much simpler when they don't have to deal with the unexpected.
I am genuinely afraid for the future. I cannot even imagine sending my children to public schools.
What we should do is build a moral society, a society where violence is not condoned with a blink and a nod by the "authorities". I am maddened every time I see one of these "child rearing experts" say that the parent should not intervene when his/her child is physically assaulted by other children because "children must learn to get along with one another". Assault is a crime, not a lesson. It does not matter whether you are three years old or thirty years old, it is not to be condoned or accepted. (Although obviously the punishment must be different!).
Toleration, non-violence, charity, and duty towards others needs to be taught from the beginning, rather than having kids allowed to run wild because they "must learn how to get along with one another". One thing I learned from teaching "behavior disordered" students was that kids aren't born as civilized beings -- those behaviors are learned behaviors, they can and should be taught, and we should be demanding that they be taught. I think we can do without "esteem enhancement" courses and "drug education" courses if our kids are taught how to be tolerant, thoughtful, helpful people from the beginning. Some kids are taught that by their parents. But it is obvious that too many are not, and that too many teachers and administrators have relinquished their duty to civilize their charges in favor of dubious theories of child rearing (said dubious theories incidentally making their life easier, since they now have an excuse to ignore the fact that some students are making life hell for the "weird kid" minority).
-- Eric
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I graduated high school in 1982. I was the self-professed "weird kid" of the class, yet I don't remember any of the torture that others here talk about. Sure there was occasional picking by some of the more insecure types, I got in a couple of fights with kids who picked on me (which sounds ludicrous, considering that I must have weighed a whole 98 pounds at the time, but it was more for effect than anything else -- I was careful to do it within sight of a teacher, and those were the days when teachers actually broke up fights and when administrators assigned appropriate punishments rather than calling the cops), but other than that people pretty much left me alone. In fact, if I'd allowed it, there's quite a few people who would have become close friends rather than aquaintances, and I'm talking about from all sorts of people, from the chess club intelligensia to some of the athletes. My mother tells me now, over 15 years later, that she had one of my classmates, one of the popular ones, in the hospital (she is a nurse) and he told her that he respected the way I followed my own drummer rather than allowing other people to tell me how to think. I remember the kid. Great kid. Thought so at the time too. A real person, a caring person, and a jock who took time to say hello and include me in conversations from time to time. And his variety was the majority.
My thought is that society as a whole has become more intolerant since then. Ronny Raygun came into power teaching that selfishness was good, the Moral Majority and Christian Coalition came around preaching their message of intolerance and hate (the Christ that I follow would have reacted in anger at the way these people take his name in vain), and "loners" have been painted by the media as dangerous and unbalanced. And the teaching corps has declined in quality dramatically -- I got the last of the 60's generation teachers when I was in high school (i.e., they entered teaching in the 1950's and 1960's, when opportunities for smart women were pretty limited). My teachers would have never tolerated the wanton brutality that I have seen on this board, and the administrators back then backed up the teacher.
One last thing: I am a nerdy white guy, and I spent a couple of years as a nerdy white guy teacher before leaving the profession because the stress was giving me ulcers. I would NEVER have tolerated any of the abuse that has been tossed around on this board. I was a lousy disciplinarian, but the students knew my beliefs, and knew that beyond that boundary boojums lay, and knew that I would not be intimidated when it came to those core beliefs. It saddens me that there are teachers with no backbone out there who allow such evil to happen in today's day and age.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
So geeks are "the ultimate in conformists"? So it doesn't "bother you that US economic and political life is built on the backs of these people"?
Speak for yourself.
The rant on apartheid in America (on my web page) is clear enough, as is the fact that I co-founded a group to bring a park to my economically-depressed hometown (spent a ton of my own money to do it too), spent a couple of years teaching in economically depressed areas, and otherwise have done my part to try to make this world a better place. Yes, I get nervous about dealing with people (and I have discovered the hard way to NEVER give television interviews, they make me look really REALLY dorky, to only give written press interviews), but so it goes.
Sure, there are geeks out there who don't care about anything except whether they can get a dual PIII system with their next paycheck, but don't paint all geeks with the same brush.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I've made it through the hell we call Middle and High School. I had some unique experiences because my father was in the Army and I got to go to another new school every other year.
.22 rifle for my 13th birthday, I had hunter safety training and I joined the High School Rifle team (Varsity Letter no less). There's no way I could point an unloaded weapon at another human being much less a loaded one.
:). And last and certainly not least I would go down several times a week and shoot a firearm downrange and receive training on how to become a better marksman.
I learned early on that you had to respond with violence in order to gain any respect. Not only was I the "new kid", but I was also a geek and I was in fist fights constantly starting in elementary school. I'm really quite a non-violent person, but if someone pushes me too far then I will fight back, and I suspect thats what happened with these latest school shootings.
I can well remember sitting in Middle School science class quite peacefully while a little bully gave me a "red neck" which is a term describing how the giver slaps the back of the givee's neck multiple times causing it to become quite red. He did this once and I sat there and did nothing. The sound of the skin being slapped went through the whole class room and the teacher sat there and didn't say a word. The bully did it again. My friend next to me says that I mumbled one more time and I'm gonna kill him or something to that effect, but I don't remember saying anything. The next time he did it I stood up threw him against the wall and proceeded to beat the tar out of him. Of course, THEN the teacher noticed and we were broken up and sent to the office. Now due to the zero tolerence rules we were both suspended even though I had never been in the office for any kind of trouble and my attacker was well known there. So, for standing up for myself in self defense, I received the same punishment as my attacker. In fact, we sat near each other during our 3 days in In School Suspension.
However, I could never think of doing anything like the TCM did because I had been raised with firearms. I was given a
I think what saved me more than anything in my High Schools (I went to 4 different ones) was that I was a member of the JROTC (Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps). It seems weird for me to say so, because it seems like such a non geek thing to be a part of. But I was a part of a large group of people that were jocks, geeks, freaks, and every other subgroup, and for the most part we all got along and had a bit of esprit d'corps to boot.
I suspect that if I were in High School right now I would be dragged into counseling. I've always had a fascination with Military History, Military tactics, equipment and everything else. When I was in the 5th grade I had a bizzare fascination with the European theatre of WW2 (well I WAS in Germany at the time). I read every book on WW2 in the library including LOTS on Nazis and Hitler. I spent much of my free time in front of a computer often connected to BBS' (where I first downloaded Wolf-3D long distance from Apogee BBS several minutes after it came out
I'm sure it would be quite obvious to all these supposed "experts" that I was some raving psycho ready to let loose another school shooting. The worst part is, that every one of the activities I listed are what kept me sane through High School. Something about competitive shooting focused and calmed me more than almost anything could.
Well I guess this turned into a personal story which I didn't intend when I started.. What I really meant to say was that I suspect that many Geeks if given the chance to be in the Majority would discriminate against the Jocks and everyone else. Many of the posts I've read have stereotyped negatively ALL jocks. This is no better than stereotyping geeks and we need to realize this!
Who here would deny the fact that if Geeks ran the schools that everyone else would be taunted for running Windows and not Linux or *BSD? Or programming in Visual Basic and not C or Perl? There may not be as much physical abuse, but the mental abuse would be there...
I don't know what the answer is.. Humans have been forming into little groups and fighting with the other groups from the very beginning... The only good thing to come from this shooting is that at least we are finally talking about this.
The more you know, the less you understand.
I posted a story about my life in the Hellmouth there a while back and got tons of email from sympathetic people. A couple of other people also posted their stories.
I think it was cited in connection with an article (on slashdot) about half a year ago on the way College treats students.
~Chris
There was an increadible segment on last weekends This American Life. It was the last segment, which dealt with the quelling the genesis of discrimination in very young children. The link above will take you to the home page that has a link to realaudio of the episode, and links to the book itself.
The segment talks about a book called "You can't say you can't play" where a kindergarten teacher and researcher forbids her students from excluding any of the other children from playing. The results are surprising and encouraging.
-Peter
== Just my opinion(s)
It's not the fact that geeks get picked on (not that fact alone anyway) that is causing this outrage. It's the fact that the superstitious morons who run things are assuming that if two geeks kill 13 people, that this means all geeks are dangerous. Then the have the gall to go off and cite geek personality traits as indicators of a homicidal mind. That's pretty damn insulting, unfair, and more of the same kind of discriminating crap we had to deal with in high school. The only difference is that now its the established authorities doing it instead of harmless kid bullies.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
But that's not why I have little sympathy for this /. empathy-fest. In this hotbed of Social-Darwinist-non-empathy, you easily do the "I feel your pain" bit for geeks, but many of you have repeatedly failed in the past to feel one damn bit of pain for all those people around the world who suffer at the hands of bullies, be those bullies armies, governments, smug well-fed citizens, or corporations.
It doesn't bother you that Air Jordans, carburetors, peripherals, and the like, are assembled by people working in hazardous working conditions and for cents an hour; it doesn't bother you that some of your food is produced under similar sad conditions. These people can't peruse /., since the cheapest PC costs them more than a year's wages in many cases. It doesn't bother you that US economic and political life is built upon the backs of these people. You Merkins don't even give a damn about your own country's long (and continuing) history of abuse of its minority populations, and you fail to see in your own attitudes the greed and non-sympathy that ensures that the future will contain just as much violence as the present -- there will be more shootings, more riots, and catastrophes (not necessarily violent) heretofore uncontemplated, all bred in the ill will that isn't going to go away any time soon, it seems. The deaths in Littleton weren't the fault of the guns, the blame goes to the ill will that seems to be the air that American society breathes.
You're no different than the rest of society. Geeks are the ultimate in conformists. I say to all troubled geeks what many of you say to those who have suffered for decades worldwide, and will continue to suffer: "May the devil take the hindmost". I don't mean it, of course, but I'm really tired of all you people who will only walk a mile in your own shoes. The vast majority of you having trouble in school will survive it, thrive, and then proceed to become part of the problem. Screw that, and screw this bogus love-fest.
--
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=8^
And giving a damn about Indonesian sweatshops is a trait that's timeless, and goes back at least as far as John Brown's mid-19th-Century crusades. Or the late-19th-Century Progressives and Populists. A lot of them had long hair and beards, come to think of it. But we had better dope and music :)
--
--
=8^
--
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=8^
If you haven't noticed, we're all here posting comments on the "personal hobbyhorse" of Jon Katz, et al. Your attempt at cuteness pretty much exhibits the very nonsense I'm ranting against. If you think it's just a "Kevin Bacon game", that's your problem. And it will be your problem, especially if you're a Merkin. It's the old "what goes around comes around thing" -- a "see no evil" society will eventually visit upon itself evils from which it can't turn a blind eye. Like Littleton, for instance.
Drink Linux!
Is that better?
--
--
=8^
In a lot of the responses to these articles I am seeing people reinforcing the line between "normals" and "geeks", "Them" and "Us" by bitching about their lack of understanding of our culture, or our "ways", of the things that get us through and help us learn and survive in a largely hostile world.
While the sentiments are understandable, given the backlash that we are experiencing, not only in America but all over the world but is is not really constructive. Reinforcing the division between "us" and "them" is just helping them build the wall up against which they will eventually march us.
When Bruce Lee came to America from Hong-Kong, he didn't come to start a martial arts school, he came to build a life but the intolerance and misunderstanding he experienced when he got here pushed him into starting his martial arts school. When he did this not only did he get intolerance and misunderstanding from Americans, but also from the Chineese community at the time who didn't approve of the arts being tought to the "Gwailo". He ended up fighting for his right to teach, but not simply for his right to teach but for his right to educate people who would listen about the beauty of his culture, that the Chinese were not something to be feared, and that they could coexist, that there was beauty on both of their sides of the wall.
This is the kind of situation we find ourselves in today, we can retreat behind our wall and leave the "normals" their McJobs and end up rotting away in front of our terminals, with nothing left except for letters on the screen and voices on the other end of the cellphone. Alternatively we can get up and show them that we are not something to be feared, that there is beauty in what we do, even that there is a kind of beauty to be found in a good gibbing now and then. And maybe then they will start to understand us a little better, but it will never happen unless we make the effort to understand them too.
Silver
If parents had more choices, perhaps kids wouldn't be subjected to such bad environments. Trouble is, if you choose not to send your kid to a public school, you still have to pay for the public school. Some parents figure it's worth it and send their kids to private schools or home school their kids anyway. I'm not real sure there much to be gained by subjecting a kid to ridicule and harassment in the name of "socializing" them. Why not explore the magnet school concept further?
Instead, the school administrators and teacher unions will dig in their heels further, turning our public schools into more oppressive garrisons than they already are.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Yes, sometimes fraternities are the havens of the popular/abusive kids from high school. They are not all bad. Some are the havens of the geeks and nerds. Some are filled with just your average Joe's.
I was a anti-social geek in HS, but thanks to my house I learned I wasn't alone, even before I discovered the internet. We had some jocks, some rich kids, some geeks, but mostly we were average guys. While I was rush chairman I even recruited a few guys that could be considered freaks. While we had a few close-minded members question it, once we got them to actually meet the new guys they realized these guys were intellegent human beings underneath the mohawks and ratty clothes.
A fraternity is what the members make of it. It can be evil, it can be an animal house, it can be just a house, or it can be a place where you fit in. (damn that sounds like a commercial). I just wanted to remind you that stereotypes, while sometimes grounded in reality, don't fit in some or many cases.
Later,
--
?
Besides that, the point of these articles isn't to glorify the killers. The articles are not even really about the killers. They are about the abuse geeks/nerds/freeks/individuals are receiving in high school. The first one about the aftermath, how it got worse for kids thanks to those that hate non-conformists using the colorado killings as a battle cry in their witch hunt. The second just points out how this has long been a problem and is more likely the real problem for kids rather then the evil internet, or evil games, etc.
Later,
--
?
This all comes back to stereotyping. If you want people to value your opinion when you talk about geeks being badly stereotyped don't go stereotyping other groups in the process. maynard and you are showeing me your almost as bad as the people you are down talking. I've known good and bad people in every organization I've ever been involved with. Good Frat guys/Bad frat guys. Good Jocks/Bad Jocks. Good geeks/Bad geeks. Simply because you were not in a fraternity doesn't make you any better, any more than my living in a fraternity makes me any better.
A lot of Fraternities and individuals do a lot to perpetrate the stereotype of Alcoholic Preppy Assholes. The media also only covers the problems and sensational things. They don't tell you about some Joe Smoe that stayed in school thanks to his house and help from members.
I thought several friends and other guys might become alcoholics. Now that we have been out of college for several years, I don't know a single one that has continued down that path. Some have quit drinking, all have learned alcohol shouldn't be a way of life. I also knew guys in fraternities that didn't drink at all.
Of course I went to a school that was practically all engineers. Most of the houses were pretty good. I've heard stories about how bad fraterities are on other campus, but I have to think that there are other good schools and even good fraternities on campus were most are crappy.
I also know A LOT of people that lived in the dorms that fit your description of a typical fraternity guy. In fact I thought in many cases the dorms could be worse. Take alcohol for instance. In a dorm there is always some guys that will buy alcohol without question. In a good fraternity a person (underage or not) usually has somebody to take care of him if he gets a little stupid or drinks too much. I've seen and heard cases where if a kid does this in a dorm they are simply ignored. Who wants to take care of a drunk person they barely(or don't) know?
I've put people to bed, checked on them late into the night, and check with them the next day. I also had friends do this for me. No these aren't actions that are only found in a fraternity and in some frats they aren't found, but of mine and many others that I know do a lot to encourage this.
Later,
--
?
Dunno if this would be legal or possible, but I think a compilation of the emails that jk got, and maybe selected /. comments would make a good, though slimish, book - intro being jk's essays? Seems like the feelings that have been expressed really need to get out in a concentrated form. Just my $0.02.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
thats tasteless...but funny, i gotta admit that
"There is no spoon"-Neo, The Matrix
"SPOOOOOOOOON!"-The Tick, The Tick
I posted a message like this yesterday, but wanted to post it again here. It's something that I think is worth looking at in light of the fact that nobody seems to want to look at the schools and parents and such as the problem.
School administrators and parents won't accept the responsibility for addressing the real problems here. They can't. To do so would mean accepting liability for the actions of the teens by admitting that the kinds of injustices that we just read about above happen in schools all over the country. In a society that will sue at the drop of a hat (let alone a serious situation like this one), they can't admit any fault. It would open up parents and schools across the country to thousands of lawsuits. So now we have school administrators that are conditioned to deny any and all responsibility for tragedies like this. Parents do the same. The can never solve the problem until they can identify and accept the real problem. They can't do that as long as they fear the crippling lawsuits that will inevitably come from that admission. Without massive media influence to make people understand and recognize the problem, there isn't much chance of schools actually doing anything about it on their own. If they were smart, they'd recognize it and quietly start doing something to fix the problem. I don't think they've shown themselves to be smart though.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Actually he said that he knew how they felt because 3 years ago, in his freshman year, he wished he had owned a gun. He was talking about the past. Obviously if he's talking about it in this way now, he is past it and is just trying to get them to understand the problem. The point is that rather than look at his point seriously, they just kick him out of school and send him to counseling.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I'm in a school here in Metropolitan Washington that is home to two special programs, a math/science/computer magnet and a communication arts program. This school (Montgomery Blair High) had six Intel (formerly Westinghouse) Science Talent Search semifinalists. One of our students came in second place in this competition, losing to a 14 year old SENIOR from some other school. (This person will likely have serious social problems later in their life.) Frankly, this school is FULL of nerds, geeks, etc. I often feel right at home among these folks and don't get teased for being a geek.
Now, ELEMENTARY school, on the other hand, was pure hell. As a geeky short-tempered kid with ADD and a mild learning disability, I was in trouble at the principal's office for various reasons about once a week. Yuck. But something happened between sixth and seventh grades and the weekly trips down to the office stopped. This is interesting because many psychologists believe that social pressures worsen in middle school.
I, for one, don't expect SPECIAL treatment for anyone who's not like the "beautiful people", as you put it. I wish that they would just be treated as something more than sub-human - people worth mounting some defense for when they're attacked (be it verbally or physically) by morons. I know that was my experience in high school - those who dislike you let you know it. They make it obvious they think you're not only less than THEM, but less than HUMAN, period. I think it's total garbage that kids that act that way get away with it.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
For the people who do feel alone, this is the right audience. The young(er) people reading this are the ones going through it right now, The rest of us who have been paroled, can show them there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that geeks can have a very enjoyable life once they get out of the Public Education-prison system.
-- www.primeharbor.com
As others undoubtably have said, the press
is completely ignoring the side of the story
of the outcasts, casting them as anything
from crazed students to white supremists. But
what is not realized is how backwards
high school can be in terms of morals -- and
part of the problem is that the people involved
at this point (teachers, adminstrators, the
press) are *NOT* the ones that faced this stuff
when they went to school -- AFAICR, most of
the people that were the in-crowd went to
college degrees in social sciences, not
hard-core science. And until this point is
made clear to the press, which will then be
distributed to the public, it will be buried.
JohKatz, you should prepare all these stories,
including those of the students that spoke
up about this in school and suddenly found
themselves in trouble, and send them to
all the major press houses. Keep the letters
anonymous as you have done here, of
course, but make sure that the letters are
clear examples that the public high school
envirnoment is terrible.
Also, someone else made the point that while
the in-crowd people will end up with lousy
jobs while the nerds/geeks will get those jobs
to rule the world: the nerd/geek has been around
for at least 40 years (take a look at classic
TV; Eddie Haskle from 'Leave it to Beaver').
The bully has also been around. If nerd jobs
automatically lead to jobs of power, you'd think
we would already control this world; unfortunately, this is not true. Yes,
the nerd jobs are generally more prestigious
and make more money, but certainly have little
power behind them. It's people with MBAs
(CEOs, for example), and Pol Sci degrees
(gov't ppl) and Law School degrees that end
up with control over this world -- and those
areas are generally ones were you will find a
large lack of nerds/geeks, and a larger percentage
of the in-crowd.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Brave soul? Utter moron more like.
Tell me, what is the minimum recommended distance between a bomb and your car's fuel tank?
And I'm sure the police would have been oh so pleased to have someone turning up and plonking a carrier bag on the desk and saying 'Um.. I found this bag; I think it's a bomb'
All those signs you see on the tube saying things like 'if you see an unattended bag leave it the hell alone and call the police' aren't there for laughs you know.
That particular moron almost certainly helped to destroy evidence. And, possibly worse, may be helping bring about a situation where someone caught with a bomb has the plausible defence of 'moving it to somewhere safer', which is definitely not good.
Controlling guns wont make the problem go away. L.A. has proved this with 'road rage'. People will just find other objects to bludgeon each other with. The whole gun thing is just a symptom of a more deep rooted cultural problem that needs to be addressed. Attempting to get rid of easy access to weapons will just sweep the underlying problem under the rug.
Do they have road rage in Paris? It's certainly a more taxing driving experience than L.A.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Anyone that has ever watched StarTrek should be able to figure out how to make their own black powder.
You just can't regulate these things away in a relatively free technologically advanced society. Even in the backwaters of South Africa, combatantas were fashioning their own crude firearms.
At best you make it a little harder for someone who's already deranged, obsessed, criminal or all three.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Whynot? American schools are already just glorified prisons for most.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Governments and other faceless machines ultimately exist to serve their own purposes and extend their own power.
Where do you think that power will ultimately come from?
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I've been going through some of the some alienation as these letters describe, though on a much smaller scale, and I noticed it had scared some from going on to a university. Don't let the bullies do that!
From my experience, the universities allow much more diversity, and let you meet many more people like yourself. Plus, there are challenges for all levels of smartness. (And free net access!:) Go for it!
-Lars
>When some freak runs through the city wearing a Barney shirt killing people we
>don't expect children to stop watching Barney or advertisements to stop.
Remember a TV show called "The Greatest American Hero"? The main character's name was Ralph Hinkley. But after John Hinkley's attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, the character was thereafter referred to as simply "Mr. H".
School districts all across the nation have banned all sorts of clothes if it can in any way be associated with crime or bad behavior. In one case gangs used particulat sports team logos to identify themselves. Others used colored shoe laces. Big baggy pants were banned in some places. So were certain hair styles (not just shaving words/letters). The bottom line is that out paranoid society will alter or ban anything with negative ties if it has anything whatsoever to do with children.
When the school reopens, the geeks will still be shunned and ridiculed. Anyone 'caught' making comments like the thousands Katz received will be subjected to the trauma of being ordered to receive 'counseling' or expelled. The lesson being that differing opinions and the improper use of words is itself a dangerous and heinous act to be suppressed. This just builds more tension and resentment toward a school system structured more like a prison than an educational institution. And no one, not the student, not the parents, not the media, will stand up to defend a different opinion because a paranoid society will only suppress such people harder. Some will, on mere reflex, curse them as nazi/homo/goth/deathsquad sympathizers. Others, particularly in the schools, where mind control is stronger, will try to convince them of the error of their wrongthink. They will be badgered, continuously, unendingly, letters written to their parents, physicians secretly notified, psychiatrists and social workers too, all behind their backs, the conformists see it as their God given mission to 'help' these people before (they just assume) they can hurt anyone else.
No sports? I'm with you on that. Sports should be an entirely disconnected activity (like little-league, boy scouts and cub scouts in grade school).
As far as "nosey parents" go. Parents MAY have the legal right to do that, but at this age, to be a good parent, to build a relationship of trust, you really ought to give your kids some space. If they don't trust you, they will tend to resent you, and if they resent you, that drives them further into this rebellion pattern - and they'll find other places to hide their stuff. Then you'll have a pissed-off teenager who knows who his enemies are, and who he can't trust, and exactly how he can get away with stuff.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I'm a 31 year old "geek sympathizer", and from recent experience, I've got to tell everyone out there that we're playing with fire here.
We're in the middle of a full-fledged backlash, and admitting ANY kind of compassion for "these monsters" can be very dangerous. I think it's best that people remain anonymous in this, and I also think that you have to be VERY careful of what you say and who you say it to. Especially if you're a minor. I know it sucks, and I know that's not the way things ought to be in America (TM), and it certainly isn't fair, but people are VERY sensitive out there right now.
I got into an argument about this with some neighbors, and I told them this story about the kid who posted yesterday (posted his picture), about being approached by a "jock", and being verbally abused, accused of being a Trench Coat Mafioso, and liable to snap and shoot everybody, then the jock spit on him and punched him. The response I got was not sympathy for the weird kid it was: "maybe people are really afraid right now".
That makes ME very afraid. Like they said in MIB. . "a person is smart, people are stupid panicky animals and you know it".
Truer words were never said.
I wouldn't be suprised if Jon Katz got his email inbox subpoenaed to locate these kids and cue them up for reeducatio- er, I mean counselling.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
As somebody else posted above, understanding someones actions does not condone it. I think Katz's articles and everybody's responses have probably been the closest I have seen to date about what is REALLY wrong with our schools.
I think it is in our best interest to figure out a way to make sure that kids like these two do not fall through the cracks. We need to make sure that they do not feel like they are alone and to at least given them hope that it will get better.
Congratulations. With that attitude, you will be successful. Not the kind of "success" defined by the "score-keeping" culture, but real success: being satisfied with your life. And if you continue to approach life this way, at the end of your life you'll look back and say, "If I had to do it over again, would I change anything?" And you'll find the answer is no.
The key here is that I have come to understand that this approach to life is not for everyone, in fact it may not be right for anyone besides me.
I respectfully submit that you're dead wrong. :-) This is the right approach to life. That's what "Live each day as if it were your last" is trying to say, that's what the quote you quoted "... in 100 years the world may be a better place because I made a difference in the life of a child" is trying to say. That's what Bill Watterson was trying to say with the Calvin and Hobbes comic in which Calvin comes in after a summer day and says, "My philosophy is, if you don't have grass stains on your knees by the end of the day, you haven't been playing hard enough." And if you ask anyone aged, say, eighty-five or more, they'll tell you the same thing in their own words. The sad thing is that too many people never realize this until they're on their deathbeds, filled with regrets. They buy the lie that gets fed to them over and over by every aspect of modern, materialistic American culture. "Money is god! Come worship at the altar of the great god Mammon!" (To use the archaic term from the King James Bible). And they blindly bow with everyone else, only to realize that they've been worshipping a god that does nothing but devour their lives, their families, and their happiness, and gives nothing back in return. This is a real tragedy.
Wow, my language was getting kind of religious there towards the end. I guess my Christian worldview is showing. Anyway, I'm glad you've seen through the lie, and I hope and pray that others will too.
-----
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
On the other hand, when nobody listens, the anger has to go somewhere. In my case, I beat myself up, emotionally and sometimes physically. In their case, when they reached breaking point, they broke out the ammo & the high-power weapons. Same thing, really, though, when you get right down to it.
Above all, it's about time SOMEONE recognised that emotional abuse IS JUST THAT - abuse - and THAT, not the kids, the internet, the games, etc, is the cause.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Some amazingly good high schools do have special programs for the gifted. But, this is worse than going to a normal school. Get this one: An old school that I went to had a "Talented and Gifted Program." The acronym: TAG. We had to sit in front of the "normal" school, waiting for a bus to take us to our "real" school, and endure the "TAG FAG" name which we got. {shrug}
Life doesn't become beautiful and simple when you graduate highschool/college either. Life is like that. Difference is either barely tolerated, exploited, or sometimes outcast if not useful. I'm surprised at the number of adults here that think life becomes different when you graduate. No, you're still an outcast as a geek, you just earn money for it. The CEO of the company is one of those popular kids that beat you up, he's just learned that geeks are useful to have around. Since life is unfair like that, it's just better to learn how to cope. And what other people have said is true, by removing the trappings of geek society, you've taken away that means of coping. In truth, all freaks generally accept each other. You can watch, with dismay, as a counter-culture becomes taken over by the mainstream. That's about when the group starts refusing outsiders.
BTW - Life is especially hard as a child of "roving parents." Geek culture is the only one that accepted me. Amazing how being an outcast let me get a job, and how outcasts molded me into their image. High school rocked for me, much more than college. I learned the right group to hang out with. College, I never did quite manage. (Even the geeks there were a bit exclusive.) Is all not divided into nice lines "geek" "non-geek"/"outcast" "popular." Hell, I was popular for a while in high school. (Weird situations, but it happens.)
YES! www.hellmouth.org.
How, about it? Anyone care to register the domain and set up a message board? I'd contribute $10 toward domain fees.
In Liberty, Rene
Methinks you need to be a victim more often. Perhaps if you had got a good beating at least once a week for three years like I did, you'd have a different perspective.
While too many people portray themselves as victims to excuse their behavior, ANY one who has suffered assault and battery is clearly a legitimate victim of their agressors.
In Liberty, Rene
Email that article (or a link to it) to every school official you can find on your districts web page... most have a website with at least email addresses. I did that last night, and I've already gotten back several responses, where the person at least read the article, one said she couldn't get to it, and she wanted to read it, so I pasted it in the email to her!, If enough people read that article, and it gets passed around to enough board members... maybe something will change 5 years down the road. Its already too late for me, I left school two years ago (got my High School Proficiency, because school was driving me insane...), but I'm hoping that by the time I have kids things will have changed, and that being smart or a little odd won't get them punished. So anyways, email that article to as many people as you can. Maybe it might make a difference somewhere :)
-- "I feel a strong disturbance in the for.."\*Segmentation Fault*\ (core dumped)
When I was in college, it seemed the only ones who really wanted to get into frats were the people who wanted to live off campus and have easy access to alcohol. They were a combination of slackers, future AA members, and other lazy preppies. I had no respect for them then and I have no respect for them now.
I am also not really surprised that a frat in Florida has been charged with laws that pertain to brothels.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I went to a small rural high school where you basically went to school with the same 30 or so kids for 13 years. I was one of the smart kids in the class and certainly the most gung-ho about comptuers given that I was the only one who ever had to be kicked out of the computer lab at 7 or 8 at night. Most of the kids usually got involved in some sort of extra curricular activity. I guess it was a way to find something to do. Being a fat geek for most of my life, football made my weight something useful and got me into shape. It was also a great way to vent anger by beating the crap out of someone with the defensive line coach screaming to hit them harder. After practice the same coach would pull me aside and ask me questions about computers. =)
In college, I wasn't involved in sports and usually vented my frustrations by trying to dream up inventive/original ways to kill the people that pissed me off. It was sick & twisted but allowed me to cool off and not actually hurt anyone.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
At least one of their bombs was made out of a propane tank, so let's ban them. We have to ban 4th of July fireworks because someone could take them and make real bombs. What about gasoline, detergent, pool chemicals, fertillizer, knives, cars, etc? Let's ban anything that could be used to harm anyone else.
I'm sorry but banning guns is only going to make smugglers richer. Also if guns were the real problem, then why haven't the Swiss had school shootings like this?
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Sounds about the same as my school, except for having a parent on the school board. My HS class had 36 kids out of 110-120 total and I was a Nat. Merit scholar. In some cases, not only did the teachers also have your older siblings as students, some of the parents had them when they were in school. The HS math teacher/principal still used text books from the late 60s. It was strange to see a kid with the exact same book one of their parents had. Smaller schools would also make teachers/administrators more responsible to the parents.
While it is certainly true that armed citizens probably couldn't go head to head with government forces, but it would certainly be a thorn it its side. I'm not as worried about that as I am some criminal deciding that me or a family member are their next target. In reality, the police don't really protect you, they just file paperwork and hopefully catch the perp after the fact.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I would most definitely like to know if NBC does the show, and would you please post it or email me or something so that we can tell if this will go down.
If you're in high school, know this: for almost everybody, even the kids that look popular and happy, high school is just the most miserable time of your life. The reason is that high school kids treat each other like crap. Its just the way they are. Its the root of this problem, and there's probably nothing that can be done about it.
If you can get over it, things almost always get better.
Bullshit back at you. If you're proposing that a public releations campaign to get parents to treat their kids better is going to keep this from happening again you're dreaming. The parents that matter are the bottom of the barrel, and you'll never change them. Your campaign sure as hell isn't going to solve the problems of the people who have to ``sneak home from school'' (as seen elsewhere in this thread.)
Jeeze, what a bunch of whiners. Waah, the system is against me! I want a better system! If you think you know how to create a better system you're fooling yourself. If you're that smart you should figure out how to make this one work for you.
I'm sorry, that was harsh.
No need for a conscious conspiracy; like most Conspiracies, this is simple emergent behaviour, the result of basic human nature.
Mob psychology differs a lot from individual psychology. The anonymous mob and its bestial camaraderie amplifies those base impulses which are suppressed in the civilised individual. An individual jock or preppie may not have much feeling one way or another with respect to a geek or outsider, but put a mob and social hierarchy behind him and he becomes part of an inhuman machine.
That, my friends, is the Conspiracy.
If you want to rule you don't want people to think for themselves. That means you have to think for them. That means define "right" and call all else "wrong". Reward people for being "right" and punish them for being "wrong". For practical matters "right" mostly includes a hierarcical system. Wich means that the rewarding and punishing is transferred all the way down to the second level from the bottom of the tree. ("normal" children)
This is built in in most cultures of the world.
Social trees is useful for many things. If people fight with each other to advance in the tree, they will have enough troubles and worries not to think about the whole.
Unfortunately people fight better when they group but thats all right too because the groups can't be big enough, all members can't rise and then they start to fight internally. But if you want to group effectivley you need a welldefined enemy. If you must have an enemy you wouldn't want one who could fight back would you? (Holds true for world scale politics too...) What could then be better than the "wrong" (= not "normal")?
If sensible parents abandon the public schools, the deterioration you describe will only continue. Public education as an institution is critical to the long-term health of our democracy. Don't give up the Jeffersonian dream -- stick around and help fix the problems.
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
Jefferson knew that education was indispensable to the health of the republic, true. But that does not mean that public education is the way to do it, and some people simply ignore that little fact as inconvenient.
I don't so much care whether it's the current "public education" system, but the fact remains that every citizen needs access to at least a high school education. If you're rich then running away to private schools may solve your short term problem, but it leaves the rest of the country in a mess -- one that will surely come back to haunt you or your kids.
Quit expecting us to buy a broken product, and quit complaining when we choose to buy one that isn't broken.
Thankfully it's a product you have pay for (usually via property taxes), even if you don't use it. Given that, don't you want your money's worth?
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
That's pretty much what I wrote yesterday, and I too don't want to repeat myself.
When I was in high school, I made it a better place, at least for myself. I learned how to deal with the social injustices in subtle ways. I was an outcast. I was a geek. At first, I hated 90% of the jocks, 90% of the preppy bitchy cheerleaders, and 90% of the rest of the classes. It was the 10% of each that I managed to get along with that eventually saved my ass. Although I was a geek, my status went from the bottom of the barrel to close to the top... Just because I decided not to hate whoever was not like me, which was everyone... By the time I graduated, I had special privileges that nobody else had, and I was by no means an ass-kisser. But I had teachers eating out of my hand, the Bottomless Hall Pass (meaning I never needed one), and I could take 2 hour lunches if I wanted to. In the end, those 90% of people I wanted nothing to do with turned to 10%.
I made it a better place.
I went back to that high school one year later to visit some teachers.
Most of the boys turned into wiggers, and a lot of the girls turned into wigger chicks.
Vandalism was rampant. Major thefts occured (like stealing an entire lab's worth of computers), arson, blowing up toilets, breaking windows, and all that.
In the matter of one year.
I'm just glad I got out when I did...
I think it's pretty clear that violent hazing of students lower on the totem pole of school society is both permitted, supported, and abused by school administrators and faculty in an attempt to maintain order. This simply must stop.
While I'm offended at the flagrantly violent abuses I endured from other students while in high school, I'm outraged that the administrators actually preserved this system of order. As an individual student I simply didn't know it was this pervasive throughout the American school system, nor did I realize to the extend at which public school faculty and administrators regularly use students to impose order upon other students in a caste system; this is reminiscent of the Brown Shirts of Germany -- imposing order through violence against the minority German Jewish population during the 1930's.
And lest you think that I'm taking this too far by drawing parallels with Nazi Germany, allow me to point out that I was assaulted several times by groups as large as six with metal chains on school grounds, and the faculty wouldn't do anything to preserve my safety because they claimed I didn't have any witnesses to back my story up. This is after they called me in to the administrative office and nursing station to find out why I had bruises all over my body, ostensibly in order to determine if my parents had been abusing me. Once they realized that in fact it was other popular students committing these crimes they lost all interest in the matter. So the school system would have called state protective services in an instant if they thought my parents had committed a violent crime against me, but once they realized it was popular students to blame they shut up and told me to go away (they didn't even suggest I should call the police). What assholes.
Damn, I haven't thought about this in years and I find myself getting outright pissed off thinking about it as an adult. We do not accept this behavior in adult life, why should we impose this abuse on our children?
Now I'm 31 and far from school grounds these days, but allow me to suggest to the younger audiences here on Slashdot that if you're experiencing this kind of violent abuse in school: drop out! Just go get your GED and immediately sign up for University or local Community College courses. Once you make it out of high school and start going to college (especially if you avoid those stupid fraternities), you will find that the adults behave civilized or they go to jail. Don't put up with violence, that high school diploma is meaningless compared to a decent degree and post graduate degree; never mind the emotional scaring you will likely avoid. And you don't need that high school diploma to get into college, you simply need to get good marks in a community college, or local state University, to transfer to just about any good private or public undergraduate institution.
I will never allow my children (when I do have children) into a public school because of these experiences.
Andrew Gardner
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
I'm a little concerned that we may be all latching onto the idea that they kids who did this did this because they were geeks. In truth we don't know why they did it. It can't be that simple. It just can't be.
The counselors in schools are stereotyping people in the desperate attempt to keep this from happening again, and we ("the geeks") are attaching to this instance in an effort to show how difficult it is for kids (people?) have it in school (or work?) if they're a little different. In effect, we are stereotyping ourselves.
No issue this complex could have a simple root. If it was violence in games/tv/cartoons/whatever, then believe me, I would be on a killing rampage. If it was just a poor family structure, then there would be millions of people on similar sprees that came from broken homes, disfunctional (I hate that word) families, etc.
Also, there are comments demanding that these things be sent to CNN, MSNBC, and etc. We need to be careful there as well, because I don't think we want to send the message that 'geeks are different' because of the way we've been treated, and should be treated specially. What we SHOULD want these networks to do is distribute this so that people who are in the same position in their schools know they aren't alone, and that, since they're not alone, they are 'ok'. The 'geeks' that can't see these notes need to know that there are others out there who have experienced the same taunting, stereotyping, and the like, and have persevered.
The kids that committed this act did it out of hatred, spite, and self-loathing. No one will know what did or didn't contribute to it, and by eliminiating all factors that COULD have contributed to it is not the answer.
These kids gave in to the opinion that they were worthless, and that committing this act, with no plan of surviving, was the only way to show what they felt, from both anger, and self-loathing. What they needed to know is that if the other kids in school did tease/taunt/ridicule these kids into doing it, that is not the answer. Nothing is so hopeless that it should drive you commit this act.
If enough people tell you you're worthless, then you'll start to believe it, and your own estimate of self-worth is better than anyone elses..
I had a relatively good time in HS. I was pretty isolated from all but a _very_ small number of other people, but part of that is my fault, and I'm sorry to say that I still tend to have a tough time getting friendly with people.
/.ers. A lot of people here experienced a lot of really bad, heavy shit. Consider it a trial by fire. But they didn't make the ultimate choice to go out and murder people.
/.ed at last) is because people want to point out that some of the factors that led to this matter have been around for a long time, that they are still with us, and that they are certainly able to push people into doing awful things. I'm glad that the hundreds of people here who have come close to making the wrong choice didn't, but it's a danger that has to be pointed out. We can't just permit people to keep walking down that road, thinking that they're the only ones, and having to make that choice.
Anyhow, the reason that so many people appear to be in support of those two murderers in Colorado is because many of us have imagined, probably in our darkest hour, doing exactly the same sort of thing.
It seems pretty likely that some of the factors that led up to their killing spree have been experienced by
Don't get me wrong; I find the idea of taking another person's life, be it murder, or war, or execution, or whatever, abhorrent. I have no sympathy for those two kids. No one, IMHO, has the right to do what they did for any reason whatsoever.
But a great number of people here have discovered that they COULD have been them. They weren't, but they could have been. They can understand the pressures that can drive people to perform such terrible acts, and how easily those pressures can be generated.
So I'd say that the enormous response around here (/. has been totally
Honestly, I doubt that more than a handful of people here really sympathize with the murderers. What they're doing is sympathizing with themselves; the people who could have been, but didn't become, murderers.
Sorry if I'm ranting here, it's pretty late. Still, I thought the point needed to be clarified.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Tell it like it is.
Damn, I wished I had worked up the nerve to get together with Summer.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Sign me up. I was just thinking of posting something similar. Even if it's just a mailing list from a free site - somewhere the geek kids can get support from those who are in the trenches with them and those who have been through it and can help point the way.
:-)
In fact, a mailing list might be a good way to get some site coordination started. Point me in a direction, Mr. Coordinator.
-- Raven
>Lets not mix 'geek' and 'outcast' even those >terms are considered similar in conventional >wisdom.
In conventional wisdom, the terms are identical. 'Geek' and 'nerd' ared used in the hallways of schools every day as put-downs, and are often the very tools used to ostracize and outcast people that are viewed as different or strange.
>In 1 generation, every kid will be using the >internet, programming, etc., and it will be quite >common. Instead of working at GM you work at >Microsoft or whatever, so the internet and >omputers are not the issue here.
You're right. In 1 generation, every kid will be on the internet, and the internet as an issue in this will be a moot point. But the point you're trying to make isn't accurate. Sure in a generation everyone will be on the internet. If you've been watching the tech industry during the current generation, by the time the next one rolls around we're going to have some amazing technology. Full VR gear is just around the corner... And when the next generation rolls around, it will still have its 'geeks' and its 'nerds' unless we take the time and effor to do something about it _now_.
Things are not going to better simply because you say it will. The only way things are going to get better is if _you_ take the time _now_ to change the way things work. Putting change off to the next generation has been typical of the 20th century mindset, and as we've seen, it only damages our children and their children. The tragedy in Colorodo is at least partially a product of this, perhaps moreso than anything else.
You say we should take solace in the fact that using computers will be the norm in the future. If we could transport ourselves forward, that would be fine. But the use of computers isn't the only thing that outcasts people today, and new reasons to hate and dislike are always cropping up. Just because one of the most prominent reasons will slowly disappear over the course of the next generation doesn't mean another won't replace it.
What needs to change is the way of thinking that causes this.
Being different isn't _any_ grounds for hate or derogatory remarks. The law has defined what happens to our children when their in school as harassment, assault, and battery. Yet what happens to the people (yes, children are people too) that commit these acts? They're cheered on by the rest of the students, and the administrators do very little to discourage it from happening again. If an adult were to do the things that our children do, they'd be arrested, convicted, and then sued for physical and emotional damage.
This has nothing to do with how bright and intelligent our children are. It's about how we as a society treat our children, and how we treat each other. That has to change, more than anything else.
...I also feel like a Historian looking back on the event with cold analysis of events. I'm sure if I was closely involved I'd be a little less 'cold' about it. I feel sympathy for the killers because I know what it's like to go to public school and the suburban schools were the worst. City school was the best for me, I blended in easier with so many people being 'different'.
I've been in plenty of aggravated fights and left my mark (sometimes literally) on the provokers but that didn't in any way alleviate what you feel inside. OTOH, I think that if someone I knew was killed or injured I'd probably be in a rage. That's a big 'if game' and I don't play that game.
I'm relatively happy w/ my life since then and I do have many fond memories of that time though few had to do w/HS. Ironically, I found that many teachers were on my side and one even pointed out to me that they, students, were actually afraid of me even though I wasn't physically intimidating. Once I knew that, it made things a little easier on me and doubly ironic, I made more friends that final year. Too bad I wasn't let on to this til late in my Junior year.
I had to do a doubletake there for a minute. :-)
Wow, don't see too many hippies around here
Of course, many hippies were actually spoiled
kids in high school so, I can see where you may
not relate to kids these days coming from that era. I'm quite a bit older myself but my good memory has allowed me to remember all the evil I had to deal with in HS. I went to a small FFA style HS back in the 80's and what with me being a nerd/hippie/cybergoth I stood out like a 'sore thumb'. I actually had someone believing I was a vampire, LOL! Okay, so I occasionally wore a cloak around but hey, it kept the rain and snow off!
Jon, I appreciate what you're trying to do here, I really do- after all, you're trying to give people a voice, and that's what the net is all about. I think it's remarkable that so many of us connect with the Littleton shootings in such a personal way. I know I do. Even at the age of 25, and in spite of having had a reasonably good time in high school, I can identify in the same way- that nobody was bothering to listen, and that nobody really cared.
To me, those are the real issues, and we need to start moving on them. It's important that we talk, and it's important that we respond. Our (including both your American, and my Canadian) dog-eat-dog societies are unravelling at the seams, and it's time to take the time to listen to each other, and to validate each others' experiences.
We live in a world where empathy is in short supply, and the dominant messages of our time are driven by the bottom line, as opposed to human need. I hope we can learn to start caring for one another.
My $0.02
R
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
It's nice to think that tragedies like this could be averted if everyone would just stop their mistreatment of nerds and geeks. Damn us engineers! Always trying to change our environment to suit us! But, practically, can we really expect everyone else to suddenly become geek-friendly? I've found it much easier to adapt myself to my surroundings: you (hopefully) have much more control over your own body and souls. It's much easier to improve a situation by controlling yourself than by attempting to control other people. Attempting the latter would merely make us frustrated and helpless... feelings that draw us towards emotional instability, as we learned from elementary psychology. I've developed some of the following guidelines for myself in order to make it through the troublesome school years, (insert Baz Luhrmann disclaimer on "dispensing advice" here)
- Learn some people skills: this appears to come naturally to "normal" people, but nerds and geeks (almost by definition) will have considerable difficulty with this area. This is one way that "outcasts" are identified. You must make a concerted effort to realize this problem, and retaliate by practicing your social skills. If these "jocks" and "preppies" are really as shallow as you say they are, this should be easy. Study a little drama, or practice in front of a mirror if you need to. Examples:
- Keep a good sense of humor: Geeks excel at humor. Try to keep a good sense of humor, even when you're being picked on. Don't let a confronational situation turn serious, that's what bullies want. Turn things around, don't look aggravated when you're being abused, but try to appear to enjoy the attention you're getting. Take the opportunity to crack a joke. This can sometimes win you friends out of your oppressors, since pranks like wedgies and dopeslaps can sometimes be a form of hazing that "jock"-types often pull amongst themselves (not my definition of "friendship", but that seems to be how it is inside some circles).
- Strategic alliances: Some tormentors are more dangerous than others. You might be able to ask the "jocks" to help stand up against the "gangsters" that are giving you trouble. Similarly, if you can somehow solicit the favors of the "preppies", they might stand up for you when the "jocks" are being too abusive.
- Have some humility: everyone hates condescending behavior. Don't let yourself brag. Downplay your successes if you have to. Say things to make people feel good about themselves. Above all, do not let yourself become elitist! That puts you in the same group as the Nazis, the Fascists, and the bullies who think they can push nerds and geeks around. You're better than that! (oh, um, wait a minute... well, the logic here is tricky... use your judgement)
- On forming groups/clubs: It's great for geeks and nerds to band together, the best memories I have from high school were from NBC ("Nerds by Choice"). There were several things we learned were effective, and other things we did that went horribly awry:
- First off, by forming an "official" group, you are almost brandishing yourselves as elitist outcasts, which can spawn resentment from about half the people you introduce yourselves to. We tried to offset this by picking a silly, self-deprecating name, and having an open membership. We touted "unconditional social acceptance" to somehow show that we were less elitist than many of the other groups, but it all came to little avail. My recommendation would be to go with an innocuous name and a pretense of a purpose that doesn't seem intimidating to others... like "checkers/cards club" or marginally "SAB" (Students Against Boredom). You'll be more creative than I. Go with something safe, because, believe it or not, even we were censored by our school administration solely due to our name/purpose. Now more than ever, with the Colorado hysteria, it's important to choose a name that's harmless. You have much more important things to be doing than fussing with the administration over your rights to free speech.
- Meeting location: naturally you want a hideaway that doesn't get too much traffic, like a remote corner of the school or the classroom of a friendly teacher. You'll be behaving normally (for geeks), which means you probably don't want to attract too much of the wrong attention.
- Lunch: The cafeteria is the prime place for abuse, since everyone's stressed and restless and has a ready supply of projectiles. Sit at the tables far from crowds and traffic, so at least tormentors will have to go out of their way to do anything. We'd also avoid going to our lockers before lunch so we'd make it to the cafeteria in time to beat the long, arduous waits in the lunch line, where impatience and tension usually runs high. The best part of my school time was spent skipping lunch entirely in favor of a period in the library or the computer lab, eating a packed lunch in a classroom that didn't mind it.
- Learn Martial Arts: nothing can do more to improve your confidence and constitution than good physical and spiritual training. Besides, if you suck at competitive sports as much as I do, you'll need something to keep yourself in shape. Of course, don't go to a school or club that's only into competitive sparring, instead find one with lots of mature people who are more focused on traditional techniques and development. Your goal is not to become a black belt or turn into a fighting machine, but simply to improve your self-control, manage stress, and sharpen your chi. (Not that physical prowess doesn't help... I once threw a warning kick at an oppressor that merely tapped him on his temple; however, I made it through the rest of middle school with the reputation like: "don't mess with that guy or he'll kick you in the head!")
This rift that has been opening up between introverts and extroverts in school environments is only worsened by any "us vs. them" elitist mentality. One of us is going to have to step up and bridge the gap by accepting the other for who they are. Someone will have to evolve out of the natural human inclination to war and quarrel. I have a good feeling it's not going to be the others. Someone is going to have to start providing solutions to this crisis. We've seen the silly solutions the mainstream has been coming up with, it's about time we implemented some of our own.- Say "hi". Greet people. Smile at them. Many are offended when geeks (who might be shy or preoccupied in thought) seem to be giving them the cold shoulder or ignorming them, simply because they missed their cue on common courtesies.
- Be interested in others (or at least appear to be). People love talking about themselves. Unfortunately, geeks especially tend to be so absorbed in their own world that they forget to ask other people "how are you doing?". Ask more questions about them. You'll be amazed by how long people can be in their reply. And you'll be winning valuable brownie points just by sitting there listening with glazed eyes.
Try this even if you're a misanthrope and hate everyone's guts. Sooner or later you'll come to the realization that everyone sucks, and once you come to accept and expect this, then maybe people's acts of stupidity won't annoy you so much.Listen. What these kids did was wrong. It was mass murder period the end.
I don't believe that violence is inherently caused by playing games like Quake -- being a former game player myself. But, when I was watching the news, and hearing the descriptions of what went on in the schools, to be honest that was the first thing I thought of. "This is what I enjoy doing when I play those games -- killing people, just spraying bullets everywhere" It was a scary thought. Although it may not cause the violence, to me it is now all too realistic to what could sometimes happen that I could never touch one of those games again.
Understanding why these kids became monsters in no way condones what they did. While they may rot in hell for their actions, we must live in this hell... where people can't see past the mask to find the person underneath.
If either of the Colorado gunmen had been able to stand up in class and talk about the rage they were feeling, or speak to a guidance counseler about it, maybe none of this would have happened. But they knew that if they told the truth about how they felt, they would be punished, just as many of the messages Jon has received have described.
Instead, you bottle your rage up inside until you are triggered to lash out by the smallest, most inappropriate things. And you are punished for that. Repeat the cycle a few more times, and you get a psychotic vicious animal.
Over the past few days I've been reacting to the Colorado tragedy, and wondering why, while I'm sad at the loss of life, I feel more sympathy for the gunmen than any of the people that were killed by them.
I think the answer is that deep down I realize that given less fortunate circumstance (i.e. my parents making lots of sacrifices to take their kid out of the public school system where he was getting beaten up on a daily basis, and putting me into a private school) *I could have been one of those kids*.
I'm now 31, and it still hurts!
I'm already a fan of www.unamerican.com for their fine work in giving voice to unpopular opinions and dissent. Now they have some excellent coverage on Littleton.
Also, for those still *in* the Hellmouth, you might want to check out www.hsunderground.com.
...as I was driving home last night. I thought it should be called the Morlock Society, but both www.morlock.com and www.morlock.org are taken :)
No, seriously, those of us who remember what it was like, why can't we reach back to the kids who are coming after us?
'cause its attitudes like this toward our childen that sooner or later translate into a slow but certain erosion of our democratic society and our civil liberties. How can we expect a kid who has been subjected to nothing but authoritarian bullshit suddenly wake up on their 18th birthday and participate in a Free Society?
I recently heard Molly Ivins speak, and she made the point that each time we are scared, we give up a little bit more of our freedom, because somebody tells us it will make us safe.
But it never does make us any safer... Just less free.
Of course, people pull the trigger. But anyone who has ever held a gun knows the quickening of the pulse, the flush of power it imparts, and the effect the mere presence of a gun has on those around the wielder. If guns aren't a part of the "killing" equation, then why this effect? Why fight for or against the right to carry them? This is an absurdity.
No, I am not an anti-2nd-Amendment advocate. In fact, just the opposite. I'm tired of pro-gun zealots taking the 2nd Amendment out of context. The 2nd Amendment was never intended to arm every citizen with howitzers, nor was it intended as a check by the citizenry of the U.S. on the Government. The vote and free speech serve that purpose. The Amendment (as its own language indicates) was intended for a largely bygone era when an armed citizenry was necessary for the defense of the country from foreign threats.
It's time we acknowledged the fact that the right to keep and bear arms must have limits, and that guns are a part of the killing equation when they are used. This does not absolve the killer of responsibility. But one does not have to so absolve killers to realize that, without guns, many killers would not have become killers.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Kythe
I'd have to say that you're right on this.. I currently go to high school with around 80 people in my class (850 overall from Pre-kindergarten through 12th) and have had the luck to never have experienced the bullying that goes on in other places.
-- K
The irony here, is that in many ways, the response to what these kids have done is some sort of distorted mirror image of the actions they themselves performed. These kids were punishing people, in an admittedly very unreasonable way, who did them harm over a long period of time through teasing, exclusion, and possibly worse, simply because they were different. Their response was "punish" since they could not prevent, and those who could would not help.
So what is the authority reaction? They suspend kids for wearing trenchcoats. They force kids to go into counseling if they play certain games. Anyone who expresses sympathy with these kids is ridiculed or worse for showing any sign of compassion.
And yet these authorities - the parents, schoolteachers, administrators and politicians - have the unmitigated gall to look at this situation and say "How could these kids do this? Where did they learn that the way to respond to a threat was to punish it so severely that it could never again be a threat? What would lead them to assume that just because a certain person looked or acted a certain way, they deserved to be punished? You, you might feel this way because you look different and act differently - you must be punished in case you were to become like them." And thus the cycle continues.
Are these people truly that blind? Well, all of you out there who think you should punish your children because they dress differently, or that because they play games or talk about things you don't understand that they need to be controlled and made an example of. To all of you I say this: you need look no further for the reasons behind this than yourselves. You are the cause, you are the reason it happened. And until you own up to that responsibility, until you realize that compassion is *never* unwarranted and should *never* be punished, you are the image that we have seen magnified in this terrible atrocity.
And just because you are one of the outsiders, don't think that makes you innocent. How often have you looked at a jock and assumed they were stupid *because* they were a jock? Or a cheerleader? Or *any* of the so-called beautiful people? Intolerance is the name of the game here, folks, and don't forget that we can be just as intolerant as they are, it's just that on average, they tend to call the shots, especially in high school. But prejudice comes in all sizes and shapes, and it grows out of arrogance just as easily as it does from insecurity. Remember that being smarter doesn't make you better, any more than being stronger, healthier, better-looking, or any trait.
As an aside on this. The racism side of this is a different issue, and is something we cannot and should not excuse for any reason. The irrational hatred of someone just because of their skin color or religion or whatever is Having grown up in Littleton and knowing how ethnically homogenous it is, it is very unlikely that is anything other than cultural conditioning. My first question there is: how did their parents teach them to deal with other ethnic groups? In my experience that sort of thing almost has to come from a parental viewpoint. I could be wrong, and I don't want to blame the parents unnecessarily, but the racism has to come from somewhere, and in Littleton, there are simply too few non-white (and particularly too few African Americans) to form any sort of viewpoint at all.
First, sorry about the bad formatting. Must...preview...
Second, to complete sentence: "The irrational hatred of someone just because of their skin color or religion or whatever is just that: irrational."
Third, one point to clarify the above, and something which we all need to remember: the people that I (and many of us) should be defending are the folks out there *now* who are being persecuted and harassed. Nothing justifies what these kids did, no matter how persecuted they felt, and as several people point out, their reasons were obviously far beyond just being teased and being the outsider.
What is happening now, though, is an unjustified backlash based on absolutely absurd assumptions - that anyone who wears black trenchcoats and plays video games is a potential killer - and that needs to stop. Klebold and Harris already did their damage, but the schools that are cracking down on kids for absurd (and Orwellian) reasons are furthering it, and allowing what these two kids did to have far greater reaching effects. I would ask those schools one question: who are they honoring by hurting *more* children in the aftermath? Like aftershocks in an earthquake, this can do far more damage in the long run.
The steak knife thing happened here in Colorado. The kid grabbed her Mom's lunch by mistake. When she discovered the knife, she turned it in to her teacher LIKE SHE WAS TAUGHT TO DO. The Principal then suspended her based on the district's zero tolerance policy.
I taught elementary school for four years, then jumped into the corporate world (better pay). Most teachers care about the kids, and cringe when dumb things like the knife incident happen.
What happened at Columbine High is nightmarish. I understand what could have pushed those two kids over the edge - junior high and high school were hell for me, too. But something in their heads must not have been wired right - to plan such destruction, to take so many lives.
I lie awake now wondering how what I would have done had I been a teacher at CHS. Could I have stopped them? Could I have saved my class, my students? I hope so. Could I have seen what was coming? I don't know.
Schools are crowded - teachers see so many students and try to make a difference in their lives, but more and more teachers are asked to act as parents, too. It's no longer readin, 'riting, and 'rithmethc - teachers now have to be social workers, cops, judges, and parents. Overworked and underpaid, but still trying to make a difference.
I remember my time in high school hell; that pain helped me decide to teach, to try to make a difference in a child's life.
Will I go back to teaching? Probably. I can't stay away from it. Will things change? I hope and pray.
-jazon
This is our Cry, This is our Prayer: Peace In The World
-jazon
This is our Cry, This is our Prayer: Peace In The World
-Sadako Sasaki Peace Memorial, Hiroshi
--------to say the least.
Two outcasts shot dead some jocks and bitches, and \. immediately turned into a geek/nerd support group, chanting the "geek ain't killerz" thingy.
Then those nutz who hated guns took their turn to chant "Gunz are dangerous, BAN THEM!" thingy here.
C'mon people, you can do better than that.
So what if some bitches/jocks got whacked?!
So what if some demented parents/teachers got panic and report the nerdy kids to the cops?
It's all part of GROWING UP, man.
What do you guys want?
You wanna grow up in a place like Pleasantville, where NOTHING HAPPENS, where everybody treats everybody else with sweet smiles and hugs?
You wanna grow up in a place where there is NO SENSE OF COMPETITION, where boyz don't have to PROVE THEMSELVES to the girlz before they got laid?!
C'mon, where's the EXCITEMENT of getting laid by the most sexy girl in town, if the average (not to mention DUMB) geek gets to screw her too?!
Part of TRUE GROWING UP is PAIN.
Yes, PAIN OF BEING REJECTED, PAIN OF BEING HUMILIATED, PAIN OF BEING AN OUTCAST --- they are just part of growing up.
The more PAIN you get when one goes through his growing up period, the more CHARACTER one will develops.
So what if the geeks and nerds are being outcasted?!
So what if the geeks and nerds are being humiliated?!
So what if the geeks and nerds are being laugh at, being taunted, being bullied by those bitches and jocks?!
I was a geeky kid once. I was laughed at not only by the football players, but also by those sexy bitches who screwed those football players.
So what?! So what if I was laughed at?!
So what if they taunted me and destroyed my sceince project?!
Yes, I felt tremendous pain back then.
Yes, I was very angry back then.
Instead of taking up a gun and blasted them all to hell (oh yes, that thought did come across my mind many times back then, and I had my copy of Jolly Rogers' cookbook and I tried out several of those "recipes" too) I channeled my anger to propel me in my academic study.
To me, if the mindless jocks and bitches don't want me around, then I'll go several steps AHEAD of them.
I mean, if those bitches and jocks want to waste their youth screwing their brains out, let them have it their ways.
For me, my youth was spent in learning all I can learned, understanding all I can understand while my brain is still young and robust. And I never regret what I had done.
Today I own my own electronic manufacturing business, and I have over 500 employees.
The jocks and bitches that used to laugh at me are cleaning toilets and sweeping floors for me today.
For me, as long as I am the one who have the LAST LAUGH, I don't mind going through the hardship and pains of being laughed at in the beginning.
And to the gun-banning nutz out there --- you will never know how BAD a government can be until you loose your right to bear arms.
My company owns manufacturing plants in several SouthEast Asian countries, where the people have no right to bear arms. Those people have no human rights, as far as their governments are concerned.
The government can do anything to the people there. They can detain anyone anytime, without having to obtain anything from the court system. They can sik their cops to kill anyone without having to answer for the killings.
You can be alive and well one day, and be declared dead by the government the next day, and your family will have no right to sue the government for any wrongdoing.
That's the situation in many SouthEast Asian country today, and that is because the people there have no way to fight back to the oppressive governments.
With all the guns and weapons in the hand of the oppressive government, the people there enjoy no freedom, no rights, no liberty and they couldn't even do the "Pursuit of Happiness" thing like you have been in America.
I'd hope them gun-banning nutz would think before they open their mouth.
Unless they are willing to give up all the rights they are enjoying today, they better stop yelling those silly "Guns are Bad" slogans.
Guns maybe bad, but guns in the hands of oppressive government is worse.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I too had similar experiences in middle/high school. I still haven't had a sucessful experience with college, I still won't forgive my parents, and I'm still on anti-depressants from it. It sucks. The only thing that saved me was getting the hell out--I convinced my parents to send me to a small Quaker boarding school for the last two years of high school. There, the number of "freaks" was even with the number of "jocks", and I got respect from teachers and administrators. The only advice I can give to kids who are going through the same thing is to try to convince your parents to let you get out. There are good high schools out there, if you can convince your parents to let you go.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.
Note: I didn't write this, author is by Paul C.
-
Contact me if you really need to reach him.
(Wasn't sure if he would care if his address appeared here)
-----------------------------------------------
200 rounds of ammo: $70
Two ski masks: $24
Two black trench coats: $260
Seeing the expression on your classmates' faces right before you blow
their heads off--priceless.
There are some things money can't buy, for everything else there's
MasterCard.
Johnny
Getting moderated down ;)
http://www.mindspring.com/~caffeine1
(Warning: VERY graphics-intensive.)
-----
".sig,
Society is us.
To change society, change yourselves, change they way you act and they way you teach your kids to act. Meet up with like minded people, form local home school clubs. Whatever. Just don't sit on your hands and whinge.
Well you tried to offer a story of hope with an example of your life, yet you only highlighted the problem a bit more. You had to resort to being one of them to avoid being picked on. Heck, the irony of our cliques and misconceptions is that someone had to tell the guy that you "belonged" to a group that deserved to be left alone. I'm not saying that you subverted yourself to become respected...heck you might even like to run, but the only time that things will be alright is if the guy who stood up for you had said "Leave him alone, man." Period. No qualifier. Just for being who you want to be.
"Dogs and cats, living together...it's mass hysteria!"
What a keen observation! I had not considered this, but I have to agree now that I have. I
;-) )
was in the strange position of being accepted
by a few at both ends of the spectrum (cheerleader crowd and the welding shop guys), so I still know
many of these people over a decade later. Two of the cheerleaders I was friends with are now teachers (one high school math, the other elementary school) and several of the 'rich jocks' are lawyers, others are coaches. Interesting.
(As for being accepted, I was just lucky, I was a good artist and painted and drew pictures for several girls in elementary school, just as a friendly gesture. Later, 3 of these became the 'popular girls', and they were actually quite nice as people. As for the welding shop guys, well, I could fix _anything_. I'd also spent the first 5 years of elementary school fighting my way to school and back. I could hold my own in any fight, and had gained the respect of some of the 'big' guys.
Sorry but he's on.
15 Kids Died and now its being used by the MEDIA to get ratings the Right Wingers to attack civil rights (except for Gun Rights) and the Left Wingers to also attack civil rights (especially Gun Rights). The kids who did it were way gone and very misguided. But I fear the overreaction to this thing will increase the pressure that caused it to begin with.
I have a good paying job, drive a nice shiny new car, and am dating a beautiful woman.
:-)
I also spend a great deal of time hacking Lego Mindstorms, mucking with the linux kernel, playing games and making mods, reading sci-fi and fantasy novels. I've gone to see The Matrix twice and have already set enough money aside in quicken to see The Phantom Menace ten times. (it's a budget item next to "legos"
I am very much a geek. I am also very happy. A thousand billion times happier than I was ever in junior high and high school. A billion times happier than I ever thought I could have been when I was in those hell holes.
I don't think of it as having "won", though. To have won, I would have to believe that my former tormentors have terrible lives. I don't believe that for a second. Just because I'm successful doesn't mean they've become Al Bundy.
But the most basic factor is that I don't care. If they're living in a trailer park or in a mansion, if they're happy or sad, rich or poor, I don't care. I can't even remember most of their names any more. Since that time, I've gone through so much more, been so many places, done so many things that the small part of my life that was spent in those days seems pretty insignificant at this point of my life.
But the recent events in Littleton have dredged back up memories of fierce hatred and frustration, and seeing the talking heads on tv saying how the things that these kids turned to for a sense of belonging -- the same things I turned to when I was their age ten years ago -- are the source of the evil that they commited, it brings back the frustration. But the anger is distant, pushed out of the way by my contentment.
After 11 years of being a goth, I still don't know how people connect trenchcoats with goth. I've never seen any of my friends wearing them. Shows how off the mark Steve Rickard is when he says trenchcoats are like a kind of uniform for goths. :-/
Don't look down on blue-collar industry just because you know how to jockey bits around the inside of a computer. There are a lot of so-called blue-collar types who choose non-technology careers because that's what they enjoy doing.
My career is in the IT field, but I did my share of landscaping and labor. You know what? I enjoyed working up a sweat while breaking concrete on a summer day. I enjoyed throwing around trailerfuls of 60lb printer paper boxes while working at a certain package shipping company. I enjoyed soccer while I was in jr. high. Now I enjoy hacking unix as a sysadmin in a large city.
My point is not to chuff myself out, just to illustrate the fact that Academia isn't everything you're cracking it up to be. Who are you going to call when your sink's clogged to hell, or your car won't start? Probably not your PoliSci prof. And if you're a condescending bastard when you do have to call one of those "lowly blue-collars," you deserve whatever screwing-over on prices you get.
I did go to university, btw. It wasn't the most exciting time of my life, but it had its interesting moments.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
In my high-school (in the Netherlands) the official school newspaper was a little too official. Students started their own. School authorities forbade its distribution. It was passed out outside of the school gates. A year later it was an official school paper, and the old one slowly died. When I left school the whole story had started afresh, with a new upstart paper that had to be distributed outside the school gates. A lot of people learned a lot about standing up for themselves, which was a positive result of a dictatorial regime.
..."who can look objectively at the drones"
this is the key.
doesn't matter if you're a steak headed athlete or the smart geek that loves tech and can't talk to people. you can be both. i am both, and people never know where the fu*k to put me. just be yourself.
Have you seen Ironstayn vs Supergovernment yet?
...just so you know. He was some famous "real" ghost from a posh expensive hotel out in Monterey (CA).
unless you enjoy being the man in the grey flannel suit, and you are doing something you love, you will not become one. (although I do know some certain sysadmins who like to disappear like him!!)
I think that quite a few of us would like to be invisible, however... when I read these posts, I start crying all over again. School was hell for so many people, leaving many of us with scars that can never heal. For those looking, there are places (public schools, even) where the "system" does work. I moved in the middle of HS to Palo Alto, CA. Look at their school district: high test scores, high grades, and insane dedication to all sorts of things. Was I isolated sometimes? Never. There are people there of all sorts, and people are generally extremely tolerent -- the guy who liked to wear dresses was elected to school office. (and no, I was not exactly the prom queen or anything. any measure of popularity I had came from programming a robot for a national competition, etc) Maybe we should find all the places like this and look at THEM for the solution to the problem. Though it's hard to find parents that push their kids more than ours did, the tragedy that happened in CO may make them realize the impact they can have, and do have.
sorry... ranting a bit. but I see the way that many people are treated and can't understand why it has to be that way. want to stop genocide/murder/rape/etc? stop the violence in the schools, and you'll have a good start. however, if you sacrifice intellectual freedom for that, you'll be right back at the beginning...
Lea
Would you rather learn in school or aboard a cruise liner? Read this especially the long and detailed study at the other end of the link in it, and the short item at the bottom of the page. You could come out of it with better grades, more friends, and knowing who your parents are!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Why should someone suffer because they are different? It is people like you who are helping to contribute to the thought that to be 'normal' you have to be like everyone else.
And the idea that people choose to be different or are 'free thinking' etc. is also silly.
Why? It's silly for someone to form their own opinion and not be a Yes-man for the popular crowd?
You say that in the future, our offspring being comfortable with computers will be normal. And while that may be true, what about the people who WON'T be comfortable around computers. Will they be outcasts? Sure. Does that make them "silly" or does that mean that they should "suffer" because they are different? I think you need to re-evaluate your thinking.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Jarod -
The last High School I went to, I had a similar experience (well, I wasn't a #1 golfer, but I was the best - and only - triple jumper on the track team.) That school also had only about 200 people in it. I was definitely seen as unusual and different and geeky, but I wasn't persecuted for it - it was just who I was, and I was largely accepted and even liked for it. I was involved with student government, hung out with everyone, got invited to parties - just like everyone else. It was a remarkable change of pace from the other schools I'd gone to.
However, I went to 10 different schools over 12 years as a child - a military family, we moved all the time - and the last school was definitely an exception. I actually ended up diverted to counselling because of a short story I wrote about a fantasy of blowing up one of my junior high schools. Without reiterating the litany of horrors that I went to, suffice it to say that I was pushed to the point of a psychotic break more than once, and if I had been armed, some motherfuckers would be dead now.
One thing I learned is that the teachers themselves are victims of the same popularity anxiety. They *don't* want to reach out to the outcasts because they want to retain the respect of the alpha-kids, so the collaborate in the persecution of the untouchables. After all, most teachers are not the most intelligent and self-aware people, unless they are either self-sacrificing saints or independently wealthy - teaching is renumerated too poorly to attract the brightest and best. They are insecure and depend on the same status games in order to secure their authority in the class room.
I had similar experiences.
:)
Junior high was awful, and I was hanging out with a bad crowd simply because they'd accept pretty much anybody. I was in danger of flunking my classes because I just didn't care. I was depressed and had little hope that things would ever get better.
Eventually, though, I found out that you have to make the effort to improve your own situation, but when you do you can see real results. I learned how to get along with people and socialize, and I found activities I liked to do that let me meet people. I improved my study skills and brought my grades up. By the time I graduated, I wasn't Mr. Popular, but I at least understood the people around me and could get along with them.
My close friends are all still geeks, but at least I can relate to non-geek people I meet at church and on the job. I'd never hang out with them the same way I would my closest friends, but I can make the time I spend with them pleasant for everyone.
Basically, you have to be willing to meet people halfway, and you have to take the first step yourself. Making friends is a learned skill, and a damned useful one. Learn it. If you can't strike up a conversation with Joe Random person at your school, you need to learn how. It won't destroy your identity, and it won't make you a mindless clone. What social skills will do is make it possible to really understand people, and to express yourself so that they understand you. Being good at this takes your whole life, but if you don't start now, you'll never get anywhere.
Don't view people as cardboard outline stereotypes. Knowing what clicque they fit into is good for knowing what their interests are, but that's absolutely all it's good for. Every group, whether it be "jocks" "preppies" "honor students" "geeks" "goths" etc. has a full variety of personalities that play out different roles.
I'm sermonizing, I'm sorry. I'll stop now
Jon
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Maybe the problem of exclussion that some geeks suffer every day in highschool is just a reflection of the society we live in. Knowledge is valueless for most people. If we ask 1000 persons:
"Is the end of the world: name 100 personalities you would save to rebuild our world" I bet my balls that 90% of the list will be basketball players, and hollywood stars. PATETIC
In a world were a 500 pages book is $5 and a cheap entretainment world magazine is about $3 what can we expect.
In a world Where the weight of your success is not meassured in creation but in money.
The same society that scandalizes about bulimia and anorexia, and at the same time wants more and more skinny models.
I been always sure: The problem is not us...
about the american attitude you talked about...
the thing is, the typical american school's attitude is one of Mass Individuality, or "be different, just like everyone else". we take pride in our pseudo-diversity. School in the US is designed primarily for a social education, pretty much like the "employee branding" in Futurama. They put you in a Penetentiary-like setting, with other inmates, and see where all the potential Linus Torvalds, and Alan Cox's end up in the great big american social system. Most geeks become the outsiders, the ones interested in sports are encouraged that the world is theirs, and every teacher, counselor, and adult will be proud of them no matter what they do. And they try to make you feel really guilty for knowing more than the teacher. I recall one time that I was in Government class (I'm a history/legal/constitution buff) and was asked a easy question about the social setting of the school compared to that of the Congress. I gave a REALLY overly-intellectual answer about how futile the question really was. The answer went not only the student's heads, but also the teacher's. He then tried to insult me because he felt that his intelligence was being belittled.
The US school system is not one of education, but rather one of social conformity and blissful ignorance. And one day, these fine students will be unleashed upon the populace without a clue.
Yes, but did you notice that NO ONE was killed by those bombs? Ban the guns and half the problem is solved. Now you only have to fix shallow materialistic American culture, its oppression of those different and its obscene acceptance of violence as a solution to problems. Good luck!
************************************************ ***
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
I did. I couldn't find any exact information about how those victims who had been killed died, but when I looked through the list of those hospitalized. 11 were listed with "gunshot wounds", three were only listed as "wounded" and one girl was said to have "shrapnel injuries" AND "gunshot wounds".
So it seems you were wrong, stickler for details or not.
************************************************ ***
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
************************************************ ***
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
I mean, Taco said that there's been requests to reprint and what not, but anyone care to make bets on how long (if ever) it will be before this viewpoint makes it into the mundane (read mainstream) media (i.e. www.cnn.com, wire.ap.org, etc)?
I'm sitting in a hotel room watching Dateline Tuesday on NBC, and sure as hell, there's a segment on this horrible tragedy on. Of course, they're doing the funerals of the victims. Understandable. However, the two that I just saw were for the basketball coach and one of the football players that was killed. My question is this: how much coverage has the funerals of the two alleged perpetrators get?
Update: Oh, s**t, they're now asking "who's to blame?" again. Crud. They just showed about some parents who tried to "get through" to their kids (who had problems, don't ya know) by shipping them off to a bootcamp in a foreign country. Yowch. Talk about alienating your kid just when they need you the most.
Still more. Now they're bringing the old "nature vs. nurture" question into it. Ye gods!
Windows is the Acme of computing -- in the Wile E. Coyote sense.
Watching the NBC stuff tonight got me thinking. So, I grabbed my copy of _Moving Pictures_ by Rush and popped it into my CD player. One of the tracks is entitled "Witch Hunt (part III of 'Fear')". I hit play and really listened to the lyrics. Yowch. Neal Peart really hit the nail on the head with that one.
"Those who know what's best for us
must rise and save us from ourselves."
- Rush, "Witch Hunt", _Moving Pictures_
Windows is the Acme of computing -- in the Wile E. Coyote sense.
Perhaps the solution to these problems is along the lines of the existing 'zero tolerance' policy many schools have taken towards weapons possession.
The 'zero tolerance' policy should be extended to include mandatory suspension/expulsion for instances of physical assault, harrassment and restraint after a 'trial' establishing the guilt of the perpetrator.
For instance, when some jerk intentionally trips you, pushes you into a locker, knocks your books out of your hands, defaces your property, or beats you up, they should be treated in the same fashion as one who has brought a weapon into school. In many cases, there is a 'weapon'; the superior strength of the attacker, who would have never dared to assault you if your strength was on parity. Even worse than possessing a weapon, these people have demonstrated that violence is an acceptable everyday tool.
Athletes especially should be punished for using the tools of their trade, their muscles, to agressively and violently assert their position in the social hierarchy.
In normal society, these individuals would be prosecuted under criminal law. In school, like in prison, this pre-civilized behavior is permitted due to a lack of a 'higher court' to complain to.
Perhaps a web site should be created that is dedicated to providing an outlet for people who are assaulted and harrassed in school. This perhaps could correlate stories of incidents and expose schools/individuals with serious and widespread aggression problems. (Without violating individual's right to privacy, of course)
In reality, school kids -do- belong to the society at large, and most of them are part of the internet society. Perhaps the internet society can play a role in making sure that the societies within schools are visible and answerable to the general public.
Mike
It's occurred to me that the sheer bandwidth from the Hellmouth stories is pretty massive, even for Slashdot. Is it time for a separate Hellmouth Stories page, for nerds and outcasts to discuss the ramifications of this latest wave of anti-non-conformist paranoia?
Finding God in a Dog
OK, instead of risking even a hint of support for the killers (and I don't think we are--even "understanding" is far different than "approval"), let's look at this from a coldly pragmatic viewpoint: how do we prevent such killings in the future? Newspapers are full of quotations and editorials giving "solutions," most of them with the word "mandatory" embedded in them somewhere (fill in the blank: "prayer," "counseling," "gun control," et cetera, ad nauseum). The discussions I've seen here go an awful lot farther toward finding effective answers by zeroing in on the real underlying phenomena: intolerance and alienation.
It is not "supporting" the killers to say that taking steps to lessen the feelings of alienation and persecution they felt and others feel would reduce the chance of this sort of tragedy. Yet look at the most common "solutions" presented in the mass media: more intolerance and more persecution toward kids who stand out in some way. It's time to show the public the bubbling cauldron of despair and anger that schools have become for many students, and let them know that unless they throw water on the fire (instead of turning up the heat), Littleton will only be another member of a growing trend.
So let's bring out these issues, not because we support the killers, but because we want to avoid others becoming like them. This is simple, cold pragmatism, even though it also serves to put a more human face on the killers. And it should do so, because seeing them as human forces us to understand them, and understanding, not fear, is the key to prevention.
My story is pretty much the same as others here.
I found school horrific. At 15 I left school and joined the Navy (Australia).
School was worse than the Navy !
If someone tried violence as a solution in the navy, unless they had a bloody good reason, they would suffer for it.
At school ?, getting beat up makes YOU the trouble maker.
The problem with this is that high school only lasts 4 years.
If something like this were to affect the SAME PEOPLE for years and years, they would get fed up and finally break out and force people to take notice of the problems in a big way (as we can see, killing people obviously doesn't accomplish that.. and has quite the opposite effect).
But sadly, high school only lasts 4 years, and those who are suffering just try to ignore their problems and move on after those 4 years, leaving a fresh batch of victims who know no better and cannot really learn from the experience of those before them.
until they make you believe.
Only then do they kill you. The bullet always comes in the back of the head.
And it is sad. This will never end.
(only halfway serious)
You know, maybe this is just a conspiracy perpetrated by the illuminati. They can easily control conformists, but geeks and intellectuals are much harder. So they encourage elementary|middle|highschool teachers to allow this type of mental violence. If they destroy us, who will oppose them? Scary thought.
This sig is false.
I am thinking about going to my old highschool and seeing if I can post flyers with this type of information. The administration will probably shoot me down, tho.
I sure wish someone had shown me this info when I was in highschool. We weren't even allowed to have facial hair in highschool. Sheesh.
This sig is false.
Reading Katz's last two pieces has made me realize how lucky I was in HS and how bad our current system is. I went to a public alternative high school (no football or basketball) and was at most a bi-geek. I could certainly pass as mainstream. I even remember thinking that I was more likely to meet girls in a lit class than in calc. So I took the lit class and after 15 years of getting educated and meandering in the lit vein, I ended up coding for a living. Why did I feel compelled to take that detour? Why isn't our society cherishing the skills & the outlook on life that are responsible for the computer/knowledge revolution going on now?
I have two children now and all I want for them is to be able to grow up true to their natures. The first is starting kindergarden next year and she will be going to a co-op school that will cost a lot more in our time and money than the public alternatives. What my children will get back is a more personal education that values both cooperation and difference.
The Littleton news and the Katz pieces have convinced me that this is the right choice. I hope solutions like this are blazing the way for systematic change rather than just a private escape from the wider problem.
The irony of it all, is that I am only able to afford something better for my kids because I hung on to enough of my geekiness that getting back into software was a snap. I hope that there is at least a little comfort in that.
Maybe I was lucky, maybe I'm the exception that proves the rule, but my High School was not as bad a majority of these postings make it out to be.
I had a very high GPA in HS, was a computer geek, participated in football, baseball and swimming and had times where other students were "cruel" to me. There were also times where I was "cruel" to other students. But I definitely don't hate my HS experience.
Contrary to some of the earlier posts, the jocks in my school did not run around in packs beating up geeks; they were generally nice people. For example, our homecoming king and valedictorian was an All-State football player and excelled in track and basketball. After HS he became a doctor. In fact, many of our football players went on to college and became successful community members.
Our geeks and outcasts were not the smartest people in the school; some were downright idiots. The smartest people in our school belonged to the Honor Club, Chess Club and various other extra-curricular groups, including sports. Except for a couple individuals, they never dressed up in trenchcoats or wore goth makeup and they never shot anyone or carried firearms to school.
I don't condone what happened in Littleton and I'm not saying that anyone who is complaining about their school is lying. Each experience is different. I just want people to know that not all schools are pits of Hell, tormenting young people until someone becomes so unstable they kill. Schools can be better.
-harry, Class of '86
I too was the outcast.
My escape was 5 years of drug addiction, culminating in hardcore methamphetamine usage and living on the streets, because I'd rather use drugs than go home. The pot smokers accepted me. The "in crowd" didn't.
Not that I condone being a doper. It was a dumb thing to do, but it was my escape from that hell. Glad to be a geek nowadays. Screw the dumb bastards.
ehintz
Let's back off from a moment. I was a geek, I was tortured in high school, and despite now being a high-paid professional with an office full of computers, the scars still show. But that's true of most of the respondents, I'm sure.
What I'm curious about is root causes.
What's so good about conforming? Why do people in school want the whole world to be mirrors of themselves? Would that not create a horribly boring world? Why torture people because they are different?
Anyone know? I think if we understood that, we would understand many of the world's problems.
D
----
..should be a fragile, beaten up freak.
:) ) to your training, and you will need no guns...(just kidding, but..)
I can speak only for my friends and myself. I grew up in Moscow - straight A (5's) in school, honorary diploma, geekiest of the colleges, now my got my Ph.D here. But I always could beat the crap out of anybody in my school, except for my best friend, who was the second best student, but compensated by being a full-contact champ. He is a professor here now...
There is absolutely no negative correlation between your mental and physical abilities. All you geeks out there - get out and work out. Just a little scientific approach (
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
...is an unnecessary competetive grading. One can get an "F", because some weirdo had nothing better to do then to sit his ass off in library.
In my school (in Russia) one would get "2" if he doesn't know shit - and criteria is generally universal and predefined. No "average", no "grading curve".
That remove's a LOT of anymosity toward smarter members of the class. You are not competing with THEM, only with you own laziness and dumbness...
Just an observation...
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
It gets worse. In Rhode Island, some 8-year-old got sent home for bringing in a butter knife to cut his cookies. Now, I think cutting cookies is a little silly, but sending him home with that thing is sillier...
Conor
Programmer, Consultant, Geek, CTYer.
I won't belabor the thread with my own experiences as a teenager, except to note that they mirror those that many others here have expressed.
What I would like to point out is that people are simply unwilling to accept the reality of the situation, that the two shooters in Colorado were not strange freaks from the other side of the galaxy. They were human beings, Americans, not so different from any of us who have grown up here, who for whatever reason were marginalized and pushed beyond their ability to cope intellectually or emotionally, and ultimately lost it.
Unfortunately, it is much more comfortable for us to demonize them as "white supremecists," "death obsessed goths", "crazed freaks", "geeks", and so on rather than accept the uncomfortable truth that, but for a twist of circumstance and fate, they could have been any one of us. "What, me a monster! Never! You lying sack of shit! Get out of my face or I'll kick your ass, you worthless freak! How dare you!" And so on, ad nauseum, are the responses I've gotten when expressing this notion to "perfectly normal, well adjusted" people. Anyone else spot the similarity in emotion in those responses to those demonstrated so lethally by those misguided youths in Colorado?
What is even less pleasant to realize, and what almost no one is willing to accept, is that the way those two kids (now dead murders) reacted to normal, every-day conditions in the "normal" (though to them, as to many of us, unbearable) environment of high school isn't really all that unusual or insane -- they simply hit back at those they held responsible for their pain. Indeed, they did what is expected, even demanded, of us by our society when we are picked on. The only difference is degree (kill instead of strike -- the outcome may be different but the inherent violence is the same). That they struck back with pipe bombs and guns instead of words, gestures, or even sticks and fists is horrific, but it is hardly the clean break from tradition we so desperately want to believe it is. We are cruel to one another, often without immediate consequence. Our parents, teachers, counselers, etc. encourage us to "conform" and to "learn to get along" while standing idly by and watching those bigger and stronger than ourselves engage in often ruthless physical and phsychological and very non-consentual domination over us. How often have you heard the comment "no one likes a tattletale" when going to someone in authority for help or protection when feeling threatened? As I child I remember vividly adults expecting, encouraging, and sometimes demanding that we, as children, stand up to this abuse and fight back *on our own*. Well, it looks like these kids took that lesson to heart and did just that, much to our collective horror. Maybe we should reconsider just what lessons we are teaching our children. Not from video games, or television, or any other media, but in person, as uninvolved parents, teachers, counsellers, and so on. When adults start telling children "no one likes a bully," "no one likes a violent punk," or "no one likes a rascist" instead of "no one likes a tattle-tale" the maybe, just maybe, things will start to turn around. Until then, expect more of the same. Much more, if the mindless, morally bankrupt backlash our so-called leaders are engaged in continues to run its course unhindered.
I'd weep for the future, if I honestly thought there was one.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I want to thank Jon for continuing his coverage of this horror. And I want to thank everyone for writing about their experiences. I wrote in yesterday with a post about helping these kids at the boiling point to escape. I went to a program called the Texas Academy for Leadership in the Humanities @ Lamar U. in Beaumont. You can go to Lamar's homepage and look in the directories for information. There is also a news item that talks about the Academy on their site under the news dated Jan. 24, 1999.
I've received a couple of emails since posting, and welcome all because I think that the Academy changed my life in the most positive way possible. Send me one if you want to know how to escape the Hellmouth.
Mike Ford
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
I was a geek before the word existed. In middle school and high school, I loved to read, watch Star Trek, and hang around after school with the science teachers and learn 'the stuff that really mattered.'
Consequently, I was a target for every bloated jock whose path I crossed. I grew up in a small West Virginia town who worshipped athletics above all other activities. Football was considered to be the highest pursuit a man could attain, and the 'popular' kids were atheletes. Any form of thought which wasn't in line with what the alpha thugs laid down as acceptable social norms were stomped on without hesitation. Not all intructors at these schools tolerated such bullying, but the majority of teachers not only tolerated this behavior, but encouraged it.
It is fair to say that not all jocks maintained a bullying demeanor, but certainly 90% or more did.
Because I was born in June, I was physically smaller than most of my classmates. Also, I was a slow grower (in fact, I am still getting taller, and I'm 36 years old!) I simply didn't think that wearing the latest clothes, or going to 'pep' rallies to mindlessly cheer on the biggest goons were important activities. I was shy, also, because anything I had to say was typically thoughtful and at an adult level, and therefore made me an immediate target for physical and verbal abuse.
My parents were split on the issue. Mom couldn't believe that such institutional cruelty existed, and her only answer was to 'ignore the bullies and eventually they will go away.' Not. Dad was basically a non-violent guy, but he said that bullies will keep at you if you don't stand up for yourself, and suggested that, the next time I got physical abuse from someone, kick 'em in the kneecap or similar region, so that they couldn't respond.
I decided that taking a nightstick to school in order to defend myself might result in an injury to a jock which would put him out of sports permanently, and I knew that there would be no sympathy for me in that town afterwards. So my solution was to beat them at their own game. I got active in sports.
Specifically, I picked a sport which none of the most popular jocks were involved with, and which I had some talent in: swimming. During the three years I swam, I set records at my high school which probably still stand today.
One payoff came during my junior year when I was getting verbally hazed in class from the guy who was our varsity center on the football team, and I piped up: 'Look, fat boy, I may not play sacred football, but any time you want to try to beat me at my sport, come on down to the pool so I can humiliate you in front of as large an audience as you can stand. What? You don't want to accept my challenge? Then shut up, and know that there is an athletic activity at which I will always be better than you.'
There was stunned silence in the room, then, for once, laughter and jeering at the jock instead of at me. The English teacher winked at me, and continued the class, but Fat Boy stayed humiliated, and I got more popular after that.
To this day, I despise professional football, baseball, and basketball. I hate business people who use sports analogies when I'm dealing with them, and usually say so. I'm glad that soccer, hockey, and other sports get more attention than when I was in high school.
Geeks: hang in there. Popular atheletes are for the most part lazy and stupid, and they will get theirs when they have to start dealing with the real world. Go on to college, where scholastic inclinations are rewarded. You will find many people who think like you do, read the same books as you, and are looking for friends like you. The game changes completely... you will be treated like an adult, and liked for your mind. And, there's girls... :)
Once out of the prison (oops, school) system, you will find that you've got the skills to get a job that allows you to attain the level of success that your oppressors can never hope for. (I checked; most of the popular goons from my high school class are mall security guards and the like.)
If you can't get away from bullies, and they won't let up on you, use your mind to find a way to embarrass, harass, or get back at them. Shooting them is an unacceptable solution. But a surprise kick in the groin and an explanation that you ain't gonna take it no more, works wonders.
Good luck!
The second I saw this on TV (I was actually at my apartment watching the live broadcast as it happened) I knew that it wouldn't be long before the media would start its witchhunt. Even with this in mind, I was surprised as to how quickly all the wrong things were blamed. One by one, all the "tell-tale symptoms" were uncovered: KMFDM lyrics on one's webpage, copies of Doom and similar games, black trench coats, anti-social behavior.
I don't want to rant too long, since it would be a re-hash anyway, but I can't help but look on this from a few different angles. In HS 3 or 4 years ago, I was a form of the trenchcoat mafia, wandering the halls with nothing better to do. Then I could get away with it. Out in the real world I've already been harrassed three times by the police for wearing my coat (never mind that it was cold and raining ... that's all circumstantial evidence to the obvious truth I was going to kill everyone in the Deli if my chicken salad sandwich wasn't perfect) and I don't want to think back and imagine what it would be like now.
But my younger brother doesn't have to: he's there, and mad as hell about what's going on. He's already asked if he can borrow my coat and an old pair of boots so he can hand out some "Doom" pariphinalia (sp?). I say more power to him, but what he sees as a little prank could end up suspending/expelling him.
My dad doesn't have to imagine, either. He teaches in a city middle school and has already gotten two or three death threats from students he's had to turn in for bringing loaded weapons to school. Not to say he's one of "those" admins. He's the dad of two geek guys and supports my brother's attempts to point out exactly how absurd some schools have gotten. But what if one of his former students says to themselves, "Hey, if those guys in Colorado did it and became famous, why can't I?" And then my dad would be another victim of a senseless killing?
Why doesn't the media see themselves as part of the problem instead of part of the solution?!?
So what is the solution? I can't say for sure, but it sure as hell isn't taking away from some kids their only avenue of escape (computers, music, etc) and making them pick up a football or a pom-pom. bull:red flag::geeks:repression (for those of you who still remember those horrid analogy things from the SATs). It's in creating organizations like MADD and in counselling students AND parents to be a family and not a loose collection of people wandering in and out of the same living area. Ever read Kurt Vonnegut? Ever hear about extended families and community support?
Almost thirty years ago, John Lennon wrote a song, something the complete opposite of "Imagine" in many ways. And it's all the more true today.
All I can say to those still in HS is stick in there. I agree with previous posters that life isn't a win/lose situation, but one where you just keep working (or hacking) away. If you really feel like trying to define success, try this out:
Stip searched.... If she were your daughter would you understand?
Davo -- Free speech, free software, AND free beer.
Hymn Of Breaking Strain by Rudyard Kipling
The careful text books measure
(Let all who build beware!)
The load, the shock, the pressure
Material can bear.
So, when the buckled girder
Lets down the grinding span,
The blame of loss, or murder,
Is laid upon the man.
Not on the Stuff--the Man!
But in our daily dealing
With stone and steel, we find
The Gods have no such feeling
Of justice toward mankind.
To no set guage they make us,--
For no laid course prepare--
And presently o'ertake us
With loads we cannot bear.
Too merciless to bear.
The prudent text-books give it
In tables at the end--
The stress that shears a rivet
Or makes a tie-bar bend--
What traffic wrecks macadam--
What concrete should endure--
But we, poor Sons of Adam,
Have no such literature,
To warn us or make sure!
We hold all Earth to plunder--
All Time and Space as well--
Too wonder-stale to wonder
At each new miracle;
Till, in mid-illusion
Of Godhead 'neath our hand,
Falls multiple confusion
On all we did or planned.
The mighty works we planned.
We only of Creation
(Oh, luckier bridge and rail!)
Abide the twin-damnation--
To fail and know we fail.
Yet we--by which sole token
We know we once were Gods--
Take shame in being broken
However great the odds--
The Burden or the Odds.
Oh, veiled and secret Power
Whose paths we seek in vain,
Be with us in our hour
Of overthrow and pain;
That we--by which sure token
We know thy ways are true--
In spite of being broken,
Because of being broken,
May rise and build anew.
Stand up and build anew!
Of course, I went to Stuyvesant Highschool in new york city, a specialized science and technology highschool. Theres a test to get in (despite being a public school) so you have several hundred of NYC's smartest students...
Not suprisingly, wasn't any prejudice against geeks (nor, really much in general). I wasn't remotely the most popular person in my class (was kind of a geek, even for stuy), but didn't suffer anything like what's described here.
I actually had good experieces through all my time in the NYC public school system, probably due to the efforts of my parents (thanks mom) for making sure I wound up in the good ones.
But good schools do exist.... There is hope.
-Fyndo ('88)
Reading through the stories of teenages today brought back the memories of my school experiences 25 and 30 years ago, I'm 41 now.
The jock's hand around my throat, "What'd you say? I thought I heard you say 'Fuck you.'" He was looking for an excuse to pound on me. Junior high and high school had lots of episodes like that. My nickname was "Bullwinkle". You can figure it out.
The best thing about getting older is that you can travel and mix with different crowds. You can find more people like yourself and find your community. Hang on for that. Being a geek - and having geek brains and curiosity - gives you incredible flexibility in life. That flexibility enables you to choose what you do and where you live to do it. Something the bullies really don't have.
I was lucky in that going to college was like being a fish returned to water after a life in air. Yes, that good. Life has gotten better and better since then.
Nothing lasts forever. Hang on until your life takes you out of the hellmouth.
There's more to it than this.
While I hestitate to say I can empathize for with the motivations of the killers in Colorado, I can certainly mirror everyone else's assertion that we were all outcasts. Even the "popular" kids back then are standing up now and saying they felt "left out" too. Boo hoo.
:)
What I want to say is that my self-awareness saved me. I went to a public school in a very very sick (but totally in denial) suburb on the near east side of Cleveland. I was beat up and ridiculed and taunted... and had the same feelings that everyone else here is sharing. The reason I never broke, either by killing myself or bombing the school, wasn't the fact that I had sympathetic parents (they were, I just didn't believe them at the time), and it wasn't 'cuz someone reached out for me. It was because I could externalize my ID to watch the situation from the outside, and understand that the cretins that were perpetrating the viciousness, as well as the "administrators" who perpetuated it, were totally and completely irrelevent to my life. The person I wanted to be was me... meaning my only role model was a vision of what I was capable of.
With a helping of common sense, I kept up with my technology learning and quit college as soon as I could. And I went out into the world, married someone who makes me happy and who appreciates having someone around who is able to do almost anything she can't do, and self-confidenced myself into a job I was far from qualified for on paper. I got here by watching things from fifty feet overhead, and understanding what makes people tick.
It's REALLY REALLY easy... with a little bit of effort. People still say things about me behind my back, but their petty gossip about my weight or teh way my wife looks is only indicitive of their small-mindedness. I can still accomplish anything I want to. I'm 23, and I am treated like a peer to the 35-50 year olds I work with, and I appreciate that respect. I never waste my time worrying about what happened to the guys who flung lacrosse balls at my back when I tried out for the team in HS.
It's all about self-awareness people. Being aware of your own mind, your own person, and everything around you. Being able to sort out what relevent and ignore the rest. Every once in a while, some grunt is going to try to assert himself as though he's worth your time; just come up with a creative way to insult him without him pummeling you in response, and you'll be fine.
Have A Nice Day!
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
I learned early on that you had to respond with violence in order to gain any respect. Not only was I the "new kid", but I was also a geek and I was in fist fights constantly starting in elementary school. I'm really quite a non-violent person, but if someone pushes me too far then I will fight back, and I suspect thats what happened with these latest school shootings.
Actually, I think quite the opposite is true. These kids have probably been bottling up their anger, frustration and hate up for a long, long time. That particular mix, can, when there is no alternative outlet, be quite explosive.
Of course, different people have different ways of exploding. Some kids commit or attempt suicide, some turn this negative energy to a more positive means, some hide it so efficiently that at times they themselves may even forget, and still others take it out on others. I believe the last has happened with the two killers.
nod :) :P) not to mention a DAMN fine drummer.
Peart's actually, from what I've seen, a first rate existentialist philosopher...("Freewill" is the most blatantly existentialist song i've ever heard...ever. just pay attention to the words and you'll be able to pass any college-level existentialism course
-dk
-dk
Dream with the feathers of angels stuffed beneath your head.
Like some of the other posters, I've no real wish to rewrite my essay-length post from the first Hellmouth article (subj: Some thoughts...) but seeing some of the responses to this article (most specifically, the one i'm responding to) have made me think a bit further on some points I had missed in my first bit.
:P).
:P The key here is that I have come to understand that this approach to life is not for everyone, in fact it may not be right for anyone besides me. That still doesn't change the fact that I'd like people to understand how I feel about it, but that may come (or not) with time.
Life is not a game. There is no way to win.
Some people persist in trying to live life as if it were a game (most people, in fact), keeping "score" with such things as money, posessions, power, etc. This is all bullshit. Yes, you need money to live off of, and you need money to do things (for the most part) but that is _all_ you need money for. I don't know who said this, but I once saw this quote somewhere: "In 100 years nobody will remember how much I had in my bank account, nobody will remember what kind of car I drove...but in 100 years the world may be a better place because I made a difference in the life of just one child." This explains, quite nicely, my feelings on all the "we get rich while they work at McDonalds, so we've won" posts. Life is not a competition, life is life. (this is why we have two separate words for these two ideas)
For some people, money, fame, power, etc. may be the things they feel themselves called to chase after...these things may be what makes them truly happy, but what is right for one person is not necessarily right for everyone (or anyone) else. Conforming to non-conformity is still conforming...if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice (any other Rush fans here?
I have the technical ability to be a fairly well paid sys admin, webmaster, whatever and everyone I know boggles at the fact that I'm not...they constantly ask me why I haven't taken some position with some large (or small) company making ~60k a year for doing what is fun and natural for me. No matter how I try, I can't explain to them well enough that the last thing I want is to wake up at age 35 (i'm 22 now) and find that I've become the Man in the Grey Flannel Suit (!) type of mindless worker-ant happily trundling along and giving away bits of my life (time) to someone just so I can have a nice car or a nice apartment. For me, I need to take the time and find something that I really love to do, something that I can define by being who I am instead of something that defines me by being what I do. It is also necssary that I can make money at this since I _do_ need to eat
The greatest bit of advice I have to give is to make sure that while you're so busy trying to beat "them" you don't become them. As with my last post on the first article, I'd like to leave off with a bit of wisdom from a great philosopher...
"'This is my way, where is yours?' I said to those who asked me 'the way,' for 'the way' does not exist. Thus spoke Zarathustra." --Friedrich Nietzsche (from Also Sprach Zarathustra (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)).
-dk
-dk
Dream with the feathers of angels stuffed beneath your head.
The gay/lesbian/bisexual community says 'silence=death.' The Jews say, 'Never forget' and 'Never again.' I've lost my copy of my favorite quote about the holocaust, but I'm sure most of you have seen it. 'They came for the communists, but I wasn't a communist so I didn't speak out. They came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't speak out... ' on through several more groups, 'And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out.'
It isn't bad yet - though certainly it is bad for the individuals being persecuted - but society is just knee-jerk reacting. It can go one of two ways - these new persecutions can be reviled as wrong action, or they can be supported as the way society should go. It is our voices that can make a difference, that will make a difference, that, by the update about the mass media taking an interest in this very discussion, is making a difference.
I don't advocate publishing your name when you don't have to - but I do think that standing up in the PTA, the classroom, the town hall, and saying 'This is wrong,' is something that must be done. If we let our fear of reprisal silence us, they will win. If it is a risk to do so, so be it. I'm an adult now, and not a parent yet, but if I read that my town is instituting any of these persecutions, I will speak out, directly, locally, and publically.
Silence is not the solution.
Silence is cooperation.
Silence is death.
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
And out of that 600,000 - 2.5 million number lets subtract the number of them that wouldn't even have been necessary had the criminals had not had such easy access to guns in the first place. Now we're talking some real numbers.
I'm all for defending myself...however..don't you think it would be smarter to think of ways to REDUCE the number of armed confrontations in the US to begin with?
What do you think is more likely....a) the misuse of firearms, be it accidents, robberies, murders, etc. etc, or b) you getting your chance to play Dirty Harry on that rapist?
I'm betting (a) happens more often.
We've argued the college angle ad nauseum already; but everyone has to admit, in college it is easier to be left alone to do your thing.
In college, unless you choose to pledge a frat (and willfully subject yourself to much more humiliation by the Greeks than by the jocks), you can easily stay out of the way of THAT element. Simply be involved in intellectual and 'social conscience' activities, and you're unlikely to even see the greek alphabet - except in math and physics classes.
High School, on the other hand, holds geeks as a captive audience. Even if you're lucky enough to have your choice of classes, you pass the 'shinny, happy people' in the hallways, and you're likely to be abused.
A redefined school system, specialized at the HS level - not in college, is what is necessary. Specialized public schools are needed. Ones for geeks - that offer the sciences and the fine arts; and ones for the 'beautiful people' with their sports programs and shop.
Let's take the Academia vs trade-school divide down to the highschool level; where the future leaders of society can learn in peace, and the future blue collar plumber/mechanic types can score touchdowns as their bimbette girlfriends cheer on the sidelines.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Ooof! I misrepresented myself there.
:) People who simply do not have it upstairs to excell - sorry, got dealt a bum hand in life. But people who can contribute, but try to swindle the system instead, deserve what they ultimately get.
Nothing wrong at all with blue-collar at all.
Where I have a problem is the jocks and princesses who ride the popularity wave so long that they neglect to feed their head the four basic food-for-thought groups.
They then have no choice but to work as bank tellers, delivery people, line workers...
I can't do cars. I have no mechanical inclinations. I have complete respect for my mechanic - he's briliant.
A friend of mine smoked his Pell grant. He was really popular in HS and got into a state school based on raw talent and good SATs - not his mediocre grades. He sells cars for a living at 26, and will never live his life further than two paychecks in advance. This is the type I don't care for.
People who choose to work for a living amaze me - I, being inherently lazy.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Can I just point out, that in fact the second bomb in Brick Lane was left on the ground in a crowded shopping street. Some brave soul put it in their car, which actually contained the blast, resulting in fewer deaths.
I have lived with an inner-city public high school teacher. Believe me, the teachers are victims of an uncaring system every bit as much as the students.
I know ONE person who had a miserable college experience that paralleled the idiocy of high school, and that student transferred to a real university after one year. Even my friends who went to community colleges and big state schools with brainless jocks were much better off than in high school.
I think being out from under the protection of their parents' home deflates the fatheads pretty quickly. It's also a self-selected crowd. EVERYONE goes to high school. Hmm, I'm getting a nasty idea here. Quick, somebody squash it before it escapes!
She asked me out once. I still kick myself for not saying "yes"! I wanted to go out with her, but I was socially precarious already and she was clearly on the bottom of the heap. I didn't want to make my already bad position worse by being seen with her outside of a school setting.
My dear friends, saying "No" to "Tanya" was possibly the single stupidest social blunder I made in my whole life. I have no idea where she is today, but I am wracked with guilt over that event. Don't get me wrong, I have a happy home life and wouldn't want to change it. But I wish I had had the guts to be her friend.
Of course, it only took me a few months to see how infantile and stupid I had been, but it was too late for me. For the rest of you, though, I'm telling you now, from someone who's been there:
IF THERE'S A TANYA IN YOUR LIFE AND YOU SAY NO TO HER LIKE I DID, I'LL NEVER FORGIVE YOU!
But he's also on our side. We need him more than he needs us, so let's be nice to him! It's so much easier to exploit someone when they do it willingly... ;-)
Seriously, I think JK is doing a good job.
When I read all these awful stories, I just can't help but wish there were a place where the "talented misfits" could go to find an uplifting, supportive atmosphere. Of course, you're not going to find that sort of silver bullet anywhere. But I still wish one existed.
:-) Please don't crash down on me with the logistical problems, I'm daydreaming.
On a more pragmatic level, the best advice I can think of came from another Slashdotter: Get your GED and get out! If your high school is a living hell because you're bright, you sure as shootin' ought to be able to pass some lame GED exam and move on to college, where (usually) you can be challenged and appreciated.
Ordinarily, I'd say high school is a valuable and necessary step _socially_ in the growing up process, but if high school society is the cause of your problems, get out!
One word of caution: Going to college is no panacea, either. I knew underage college students who were just as miserable and lonely as high school students. Your fellow students may not be the abusive assholes they were in high school, but they ARE as many as seven years your senior -- and a hell of a lot happens in those seven years. Even if you are their intellectual peer, a social gulf will still exist. You have to go through late adolescence eventually, and it won't be easy anywhere.
This, of course, brings me back to the idea of some sort of "geek haven" high school that the tormented outsiders could go to. Boarding school, of course, with 100-base-T in every room.
You may argue that the real world is a whole lot more like high school than we care to admit, and you're only hurting yourself hiding from it. I would disagree in one key aspect, though, which is that in the real world your tormentors rarely have the chance to actually beat you up. And in a battle of wits, we geeks can hold our own.
Hmm, wonder If anyone will read this?, now that there are so many posts, maybe it will be looked over, oh well, such is the way of things.
But for some reason I wish to tell my story.
Now days I live in Australia, came over here in 83 at the age of 9 from the UK, this is when the hell started.
firstly I was differnt, i spoke funny, couldn't catch a ball (from an allergic reaction from an immunization drug which left me with verry poor motor coordination among other things), went to occupational therepy twice a week, and was tiny.
So my first few years were hell, then off to High School, I thought great, new people, time to start over again, no such luck, by the time I was thirteen, I started trying to kill myself, and what topped it was when the captain of the scool foot ball team raped me, fuck I said it this is the first fucking time I have ever told any one, funny this, then he spent the rest of the time beating me up for been a fag, poof ect ect ect.
any way I have scars, both physical and mental, at the moment I am sitting at work typing this, alt tabbing as soon as any one come in, have to use win here, I just want to say, though I have survived the pain lingers on, some nights I cannot sleep anymore, I am 25 now and these events happend over 10 years ago, well some things never heal, I suppose I am happy now, well most of the time, I still battle with depression, and a few other things, but I now have a girlfriend, and have been with her for well over a year now,
The one thing Is that I am able to have a relationship now is a good thing, but I havent even told her what happed
Benjamin
if anyone needs to talk to some one here I am
ben@iaa.com.au
cvisors@iaa.com.au
"sometimes I wish I was blind I thought I saw a whole lot more than this"
I have to disagree. The emphasis on sports over academics, the concrete over the abstract, is too deeply entrenched. Internet use may a different story, but programming is the antithesis of cool. As long as US culture maintains this pathological obsession with sports, programmers will never rise to the top of the social ladder.
I'm inclined to think that the best solution to the social hell of high school is the elimination of school-sponsored sports. Schools should emphasize academics. If kids want to participate in recreational sports, they can do that outside the context of the schools. Also, the schools wouldn't have to hire so many coaches with dubious teaching ability.
It's rather simple. We need to get this material on CNN, and we need to get it there now. Right now we are preaching to the preachers; and sure, we are helping out our community. Reading letters from geeks/outsiders who have made it beyond Hellmouth give us the strength to make it through the day. I'm a senior now. It amazes me that I'll be graduating sometime in June; the kind of pain I felt throughout elementary, middle, and most of high school would have lead me to believe I'd have never made it. But here I am. And I couldn't have done it without my fellow geeks/outsiders and the online community. I am getting increasingly concerned for other geeks/outsiders though. Ever since the killings there's been a ridiculous backlash from those who don't understand what its like to be a geek or an outsider. What is worse, they [those who fear and misunderstand geeks/outsiders] don't have a clue what is going on with us. And rather than asking us what is wrong, they are just making gross assumptions about how to "help" us. And I know for a fact that my principal or my parents, or the general public for that matter, will never know of the things we say here on /. That is exactly why this [the Hellmouth article, et. al.] kind of material needs to be broadcast out to the general public. Ignorance is recursive; if we don't break the loop soon we're gonna have one very ugly crash.
i am a survivor. better than that, i have grown. the web is the home of all of us who were different, who wouldnt easily fit into the neat little boxes in high school, jock, teen queen....the popular kids are lost in middle managment now, scared of the future. they have little dreams......
we dream BIG dreams involving no horizons. they are bounded by theirs. we are free, and have worlds to explore.
i pity them now.
we, my geek partner and i, are raising 3 girls who wont fit into any little box. they have far horizons to explore.
at times its a long hard journey..but the rewards can match it...
hang in there, any of you still suffering through school. we all make it home:)
there are huge groups of us out there. the geek WILL inherit the earth. it will be a hell of a lot nicer place for it, too:)
Between the idea & the reality, between the motion & the act falls the shadow
The problem is what to do with GED-toting geeks.
I finished my four years in High School. While I won't bore everyone with a blow-by-blow, I too was struck at firsy with empathy for the shooters.
Like many, I endured and escaped to a fine college ( WPI) where I found myself and started the real life that I now live. And like most, even though High School is now almost a decade behind me, memories of it still haunt me sometimes.
The problem is, I don't know what would have been better. My college accepted advanced High School students through something called the "Massachusetts Academy". These kids were allowed to go "to college" during the day instead of High School, to take special classes and some regular college classes, and get their HS diploma that way.
The problem was, though they tried to fit in, they couldn't. Some were just HS Juniors (and maybe even younger) and were not equipped for the college life. Many were immature, so they were spurned by the students. Sadly, some of the girls were taken advantage of by our male-dominated student body. They all just weren't ready for college.
The same applied to many of the "early entrance" students who left High School a year (or two) early to go to college. They were woefully prepared for the college life, emotionally.
So if college isn't the right place for many of these poor geeks, where should they go? I think the only real option is private or magnet High Schools. They should go somewhere where they really can blossom emotionally and that will prepare them to take their deserved places in society.
Misfit students should not be forced to endure "chicken coop" schools, but they shouldn't be forced into a college world they can not yet handle.
what the hell does wearing a trench have to do with bad taste? If that's your standard style of dress, why should you change it. When some freak runs through the city wearing a Barney shirt killing people we don't expect children to stop watching Barney or advertisements to stop. If someone ran around with bluejeans on shooting at high-ranking-gov't officials, we wouldn't bug about that. Just because it's a trench, that doesn't make it bad taste... bad taste is walking in with the trench and fake guns :P
-JDL
Eh... they may change Barney if it happened... and yes... they have banned gang shit... but this isn't a gang... Trenchcoats have been worn by billions of people in the past who don't think twice about killing... they're comfy, they're long, they protect from rain, they protect from cold... TRENCHCOATS ARE GOOD... :)
Anyhow, Yeahyeah, schools are paranoid, but it's funny how far they go. Hell, they were considering a dress-code at my school, but they know that half their students would go elsewhere if they did it. As a Senior in HS... I can freely say that I'd just test out if they told me I didn't have a choice, or that I couldn't wear one item of clothing that I chose. It's pure stupidity to me. The gov't should start backhanding themselves 'til they realize that individuals aren't stupid, even if the crowds are.
-JDL
I am from Ukraine... I had to go through stuff far worse than this. Doesn't make sense to post a story many times here, so just click my name and look for a REALLY long post. About 4 pages by my last count.
--
Leonid S. Knyshov
Network Administrator
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
Would you rather that we learn nothing from the Littleton tragedy and that there be *no* reaction to violence, threats, or the poor taste of wearing a trenchcoat to school the day after a massacre? While some of the stories Katz has talked about have been overboard (the parents taking away the 10 year old's computer), most have erred on the side of caution.
I'm not saying that the persecution of "geeks" shouldn't be an issue to be discussed - but to claim some of the actions that I've read about in the past two Katz articles are overreactions is ludicrous. This isn't a freaking deathmatch - 15 kids died.
Now high school and junior high school students are scared of this sort of thing and are afraid to go to school. Teachers are scared by it and are afraid of their students. If you get up in a religion class and say you've wish you had owned a gun, of course someone is going to take it as a sign. I have no pity for anyone punished for saying something like this because they have no common sense, and no respect for the fears of others.
I agree with you that this is the right Audience, because here at /. a lot of people know how you feel, if you are an outsider. /. there are a lot of bright and successfull people who felt as outsiders at school. Get together and do something. There are lobbys for nearly everything in America, why not a lobby for geeks (or simply people who are different, don't wear 'in'-clothes...)
I never had this feeling at my school, perhaps I had luck. I live in Germany and it was not a problem being a 'geek' (I don't know a german word that has the same meaning). Perhaps I was lucky, because I heard of people having such problems in german schools, too, but I don't think the problem here is as big as in the US, not yet.
Perhaps this is a opportunity to change the situation in the US and other countries. Here at
I always had the impression, that the US is very puritanical, but watching the Clinton trial I thought this has changed a little bit. Perhaps this is the time to change the view of 'outsiders' in highschools.
Sorry for my english 8-)
>The fact is, if a teacher or two had concealed carry permits and had a gun they could have fought back. They could probably have taken out the shooters before they killed all those people.
That is NOT fact. That is speculation.
Perhaps a couple of armed teachers could have shot these guys, though by the sound of things those teachers would have been seriously outgunned in any case. OTOH, they could have panicked and killed or injured one or more innocents in the crossfire, they could have scared the killers off, who then enraged went away and shot more softer targets than would otherwise have been the case. They could have gone into a rage and begun spraying bullets indiscriminately rather than picking shots, meaning more would have got killed than would otherwise have been the case.
Your use of the word "probably" is seriously flawed here.
Do you really want to send your kids to a school where the teachers all pack pieces and have gun racks in the staff rooms? More kids will carry guns, some in imitation, some for what they see as self-protection from the gun toting idiots who teach/oppress them.
Leave me and my kids out of this one, thanks.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
I graduated from HS in 1990. I was prom king, I was the #1 golfer in school, played basketball, I was a complete computer geek (and still am), I wore combat boots, i had bleached blond hair spiked a foot into the air, wore a lot of black, and was in the band. These things didn't fit in a nice neat package that could be used to label me. And in my school of about 200 (very small school), i was the only freak. period. But I earned their respect by doing my own thing. I did what I enjoyed doing.
I had friends that were jocks, geeks, burn-outs, metalheads, whatever label anyone wanted to put on them. I didn't label any of them. They liked me for what i was and I dug them for what they were. As far as disliking someone or tormenting them for what they do or what they look like, my attitude was always "whats the point, it takes less energy to ignore or just smile, than to beat the hell out of someone.
Parents and educators and administrators need to open their eyes and face the cold hard facts. Some of your kids are assholes. They haven't been taught how to respect anyone or anything. Schools are not safe, healthy learning environments. They are a breeding ground for a majority of the injustices that exist in this world. So listen to your kids. Teach them to hold their heads high, encorage them to respect people, and follow their own path.
JarodHey folks
I've been there. Outcast because I had a high IQ, didn't do sports, you know the drill. Always remember this-you have an edge-you think and they don't. The only reason this is turning into media madness is (1) they need "news" and (2) it suggests that all is NOT well in the mainstream. The mainstream is struggling in their non-thinking way to "prove" to themselves that their way of life is still valid so they can go back to their tract houses and mindless entertainment.
You're angry and scared. Find a way to channel that into something positive. Remember-hackers often turn to Eastern philosophy. The Tao worked for me, it or some other philosophy may work for you. Learn a martial art(I learned judo), but learn the philosophical side of it too. It can give you balance and poise. The truest use of the martial arts is to learn how NOT to fight, not seek revenge.
Hang tough, people, hang tough...
Is this problem a characteristic of having too few academically advanced students in a school?
/.'ers here think?
I ask because I had a group of friends who were similarly inteligent and didn't have much trouble with alienation and rejection from the normals in high school. My friends weren't as interested in computers, but we still understood each other and had various intellectual coversations. Because of our academic abilities, we were grouped together for most of our classes. But even when I did meet the normals, there usually wasn't much trouble unless they were freshmen.
Middle School was much worse for me. The school wouldn't put me in the academically advanced gifted classes for some reason, and I was board most of the time. A lot other students didn't seem to appreciate me, save for the students in the gifted classes.
So, maybe the problem could be reduced by grouping students with other students of similar academic ability. Of course, this won't solve the problem. It'll probably allow the problem to continue.
I'd like to know what makes the masses of the school lash out against the most intelligent of the students. Maybe its the "attack what is not understood" syndrome.
What do the
"Luncheon meats make the sawdust in your stomach explode."
That's not and acceptable answer. 'Oh- it sucks for everyone' is a lame ass excuse for the abuse that goes on! there's a big difference between the captain of the football team being nervous about zits and prom, and the kids who have to sneak home from school! You're effectively saying'let's just ignore it' and that is not a useful role in our society.
The Littleton incident may well have a silver lining. Could it be that the national media attacking our tribe (as ESR rightly calls it) could be come the stonewall of the geek community? I hope so. I'm not advocating a riot; I am suggesting that prehaps this event is the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. I, for one will never again allow someone to treated as I was in high scholl. Never again.
To those that are still in school, I can only offer my sympathies. My sophmore year, I was jumped in front of ~300 people as part of a fraternity initiation ritual. It was quite possibly the worst event of my life. The school administration didn't punish the "Big Brothers" that ordered it, and the SOBs that actually jumped me had their in-school suspentions reduced so they could play football. This is what you get in a souther town, I suppose.
However, things will soon get much better. The people that torment you now will be sent to special institutions called frat houses and ser-whore-ities, if they are lucky. You will rarely, if ever see them again. The anger will soon disipate to contempt and pity.You will do well. You will make more than them, and have a better computer, as well as better code. And equally geeky friends. What more could you want?
Will
PS when meeting these people, subtlely is importaint. When they tell you they are now a sandwitch artist, don't say "I'm an engineer". "Here's may card" conveys the same message but with a "No, you have 8 megs" delay, and is more dehumanizing.
Well... you (along with some moments of thinking about all this and what I had said) just made me realise that my first opinion (that was later altered by various things) was what I really felt. Those two kids are just the embodiement of what is felt by so many young people, the only difference is that they are the representation of what happens when things get too far, out of control. Congratulation to everybody who started writing here, the first step for helping the outcasts, the misfits is made...
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear"
Well I sure am really pleased with all the discussion I caused with my comment. It helped me (and some others I hope) clear my mind and realise that even if some of the kids involved are geeks and nerds there is much more at hand there. I suppose I first looked at all this with the disturbed point of view of someone looking at a tragedy, now that I had time to think more (and you helped me all on that) I realise that we should learn from what just happened as has been said above. I just hope people will not forget and that the scars left by that tragedy will stay long because it is from those wounds that we will learn how not to be hurt again...
"I'm here and I wonder if I'm lost cause I can't seem to understand the way I feel.
I'm not here to be a creep I'm just feeling incomplete
take me home..."
Econoline Crush -- Home
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear"
It's good to finally geeks and (former in some case) high school outcasts being able to express the way we've always felt. It's even better to express it mainstream so that people might realize that the people they've been laughing at and hating for no good reasons are also human being and have much to share if allowed to. But I'm beggining think it might be questionable to use this tragedy and those two kids as a launching point for all this. Let's not forget how it all started, lets not forget that those two killed 15 others, lets not use them as martyr to boost our cause. By doing this we're no better than the ones we're accusing of rejecting us. I already see the flames coming but as I posted this message to share my point of view I'm ready and eager to read what you think of my point of view and maybe you can even help me set my ming and figure out what is the better way to feel/act about this.
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear"
If you get up in a religion class and say you've wish you had owned a gun, of course someone is going to take it as a sign. I have no pity for anyone punished for saying something like this because they have no common sense, and no respect for the fears of others.
First. The person said that he WISHED he had a gun when he was bullied, and that wasn't in the same grade he was now.
Second. Me, and I bet most other people that have been bullied know what the person is talking about. Hell yes, I was terrorized in school for 9 years. Yes, I've wished that I owned a gun. Yes, I murdered my tormentors in my fantasies thousands of times. And yes. This IS perfectly normal. It IS normal to take back at your tormentors - even if it's only in your own fantasies.
I've spoken to a lot of people who has been bullied. I've never spoken to one that hasn't had his 'revenge' against his tormentors in his mind.
You say it's wrong to tell others about what you think, or have thought in the past. That is the "you should keep quiet" voice. You are one of those that want us to suffer peacefully. Never ever speak of what we really thought of, when we were being bullied. If one cannot face the problem, one can never get rid of it. One gotta force the 'normals' into understanding that they can't treat other people like shit.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
We can speak out and start teaching children at an early age that ridiculing people who are different is wrong.
I was a new kid in the middle of the first grade. the first teacher I had at that school thought learning to get along and fit in was part of growing up. Instead of stepping in when the kids started to tease the new kid, she let them. She let them get away with it even when I told her they were hitting me. She said if I would just ignore them they would stop. She told me not to be a tattletale and a crybaby. Her inaction taught them that their actions were ok.
I was tortured over the next 3 years until I moved out of that school. They got away with it because they were many and I was alone. That teacher had an opportunity to prevent at least some of that, but felt the lesson I needed, to learn how to fit in, was more important.
This week I have talked to people who echoed her sentiments. I think such attitudes are very much part of the problem. It is not always possible to make your tormenters stop without help. I was told to ignore them and they will go away. Ignoring them did not make them go away. Instead of growing bored with a captive who did not scream, they hit me harder and tried more severe tortures until I screamed. Instead of me learning to fit in, they learned how to torment.
We can reach out to those young people we know on the net, welcome the teen geeks to our groups--from linux users groups to our weekly D&D game. We can talk to them online and let them know that life gets better, but we need to teach the others what they are doing is wrong.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
40 years ago, racism was starting to become a big problem in America's public schools. From what I've read, there was plenty of violence, half-assed attempts to fix the problems, and in the end...well, racism is still in the school system today, although to a lesser extent. Back when I was in high school (a few years ago), I saw some Neo-KKK guy start a fight with a kid whose skin tone the KKK guy obviously didn't like.
But what's happening now that's so different than the racism of old? People who are considered "different" are being shunned, kicked out of school over what they believe, and as Katz and the many people who posted comments have shown, living through hell - getting spit on, not being allowed to sit at tables during lunch, getting attacked, having their books stolen/burned, being verbally taunted - all while the administration of their schools sit and tell these poor people there's nothing that can be done.
What next? Is the Supreme Court going to rule that school systems can separate kids, as long as the two schools are "separate but equal"?
How long will it be till the geeks are being sent to different schools?
How long until the National Guard has to come in to make sure the ones who dress in black can't go to the school they normally do?
Or better yet - how long till someone comes along with an idea of how to fix this injustice?
Racism never went away. It just came back directed at another set of minorities.
As the old saying goes, those who do not remember the past are forced to repeat it.
there IS a lesson to be learned from a lot of these comments, but it isn't a good one. it's actually very depressing, in what it says about our society.
geeks, nerds, etc., generally being the smart ones in all of this, or more willing to admit to thsoe around them that they think differently, need to use a little more common sense in what they bring up to those that may not be ready.
i had the wonderful experience of being in an entire school as geeks, and in my social cicle, we managed to turn "popular" into something of a bad word.
but even then, occasionally myself or a few others would bring up viewpoints and ideas far more extreme than the others, and even in that enlightened group, the extremist thoughts and people were ostrasized heavily, though usually not physically.
who was at fault here? both parties. knowing one's audience is extremely important. the students in a religious private school, while likely just expressing his/her viewpoint and trying to promote discussion, needs to realize that certain thoughts simply are not welcome in that environment, and until a massive change in perspective occurs, this won't change.
for people with non-traditional views on issues, instead of voicing them where they aren't wanted, even despised, bring them online to those who will receive them well, and even if there is disagreement, will respect for that idea.
i'm not saying that this is the way things should be, for it's obviously an undesirable situation, but while these stories bring up good pijnts for the media to recognize, there has got to be a better way to wave the flag here.
what that is, i simply don't know. but we ought to find out. there has always been a gap between the geek world and the rest, but in some cases this gap must be bridged to let the world know they have either made a mistake, or are missing a really important point or perspective.
maybe someday things will be different, but i wouldn't count on it any time soon.
-Tannin Kal
Social Darwinism. If those who don't believe what you believe in are beat up, your world view will tend to win out.
It's more complicated than that, but this is it in a nutshell.
Great. Just what America needs: To arm its worst paid and least respected professionals with firearms. Maybe if our country did more than just pay lip service to education, we wouldn't have pathetically misinformed individuals, mouthing the words of the gun lobby, arguing that arming teachers would solve everything. Obviously, this person has never been near a gun, has never understood the sole purpose of a gun, and has just absorbed the NRA's favorite lines, and worshipped at the temple of action films (which are cool, but fake). If this person understood what it's like to live in an armed society, to sleep nights with the crackle of gunfire in the background, to walk in fear on the street wondering if their next step would be their last, this person wouldn't be so quick to emulate Charlton Heston.
The sad thing is, of course, this person doesn't even appear to have learned anything from the compulsory years at school. Or maybe he has, learning from a system that pounds individual thought out of students, thus churning out drones that can do nothing but parrot what they're told, be it from the idiot box, a web site, or some pamphlet they found on the street.
Yeah, Jon, I don't know if you realize it, but you've got a best-seller on your hands. I was STUNNED to see the number of responses to your initial article - the largest ever, if I'm not mistaken. What you wrote got Slashdot slashdotted (well, almost :). While I think your "technical" articles suck, the article you wrote about the two geeks who made good absolutely shone. I appreciate your ability to tell other people's stories, and I think that in this case that ability could serve you quite well.
So take all the emails you received, clean them up, and get them published. Soon. Now is the time that people need to hear the voices behind this tragedy, the voices of the victims on the other side, the voices of perpetrators in the making. Not only could you have a best-seller; you could do some real good. I know there are copyright issues you'll have to deal with, but I urge you to get this message out to a wider audience than the geeks around here. We know the real deal; the rest of the country deserves to know, too.
In my sixth grade year, I attended a magnet school in Florida. During that year, there were a lot of fights, mostly between geeks and jocks (frighteningly, the two WERE almost mutually exclusive!). However, very few of the geeks received so much as detention, even though there were occasions in which the geeks had instigated the fights.
Every school has a social group that administrators allow to be treated like s***. It's not always geeks, and it's not always jocks.
The problem is that high school faculty members condone the action towards a certain group. Mainly because they were also geeks, jocks, thespians, or greasers, so they're blind to their own biases. They totally miss them. We need to teach high schools a little bit of objectivity if we want to stop the violence.
Just my $0.02
----
I have come to a conclusion about life... I am more
mentally stable than any of these activists or
Don't forget the administration.. I had the principal of my high school come accuse me of vandalism. When I told my friend about it, I was lambasted for violating the confidence of his lies.
I should mention that the vandalism was against some members of the student government whom I had no great history with. But the last 2 years I was in high school, I was punished for some other fools vandalism.. I'm glad I never had a gun, and I'm glad someone else was breaking shit for me.
I got the pleasure of seeing girlie hooch cry b/c 'I' shaving creamed her car and she had to repaint it. BUT I did'na do it.
Moral of this Story: Fuck it. Go read a book, and screw all those assholes. You don't need them, but killing anyone (including yourself) is just a chickenshit escape. Doesn't make things better. You just go to jail, or die.
-- Spankmeister General
I dropped out of high school in '65
Just another perl hacker in Bangkok
Oh how easy it is to belittle an important issue by comparing it to a much worse one. This is Slashdot, not a CNN message board. The general topic is Geeks and Geek things. Yes Poverty is horrid, but there are plenty of places to bemoan that portion of our society. Here we talk about ourselves, and if that seems self-centered and arrogant, then well...fuck you. I'm sure there are quite a few people who act different because they want more attention for any number of reasons. And the victimhood thing? Please. Who's in need of a dose of reality? Listen in to any minority group and you will hear the tones of self-pity. I'll admit there is a fine line between solidarity and self-perpetuating victim status, but oh well...we are only human.
Blar.
I agree that geeks should use our power to shut down the system as much as we can. A good start is to stop paying taxes, they're just going to be used against us in every way known. A long term plan would be for a group somewhere to start their own country, probably by using a large cruise ship. We should recognize that even though high school is over, the system is still there, we're just in a bigger prison now.
If anyone wants to escape the system, please email me at:
perez_enrique@yahoo.com
It's ok, I must admit the system is now treating me about as well as it does anyone. I'm 29, retired from the stock market, haven't payed income taxes in a year probably won't ever, living on the good side of town and my biggest question in the morning is what games or sports I should play today.
I just want more freedom for myself and everyone else who wants it.
Cheers,
perez_enrique@yahoo.com
While I believe that, for the most part, there is far too much litigation going on in the US, there are times when suing is most certainly a reasonable and proper course of action.
In 1997, Mark Iversen sued the Kent School District because they failed to protect him from the harrasment he experienced as a high school student because he was perceived as being gay. In 1998, the school district settled the suit for $40,000. I wonder how many submitters of stories of "High School Hell" would be justified in filing a similar lawsuit.
While I have never experienced the same horrors many here have described, as both a geek and a gay man, I understand where a lot of these stories are coming from. Kids can be terribly cruel, I don't think anybody denies this. What is worse, however, are actions of parents and teachers that ACCEPT AND EVEN ENCOURAGE HARASSMENT.
I cannot condone what the boys in Colorado did--violence is never an acceptable solution. But if violence is not a solution, neither is standing idly by and watching kids get picked on, beat up, harrassed, and humiliated. If we, as a culture, want to stop this sort of thing from happening time and time again, perhaps we would be better off letting people wear trench coats and play video games and concentrate instead on stopping verbal and physical abuse in schools and in homes. Perhaps instead of persecuting people who dare to be different, it would be in our interests to hire educators who refuse to be complacent in the face of bigotry.
The above quoted one about taking an inventory test (I assume this means have your locker/clothes searched or something)
If you'd read it a little more carefully you would have seen the word "personality" in there before "inventory".
One (or more) of the standard psychological profiling tests is called the something-or-other personality inventory. Basically attempts to catalog a person's personality traits.
-- Alastair
Plenty of guns available in Canada -- unless all the folks I knew that owned them when I lived there have turned them in. Can't you still buy them at Canadian Tire stores? (Of course, now you need a "Firearms Acquisition Certificate".)
Mind, when I was in high school (in Ottawa), we only had to worry about bombs in mailboxes, kidnapped diplomats and the Prime Minister invoking the War Measures Act. (Remember the FLQ?)
And when I worked in Montreal I only encountered SWAT teams a couple of times, like when they'd surrounded a bank building that a couple of guys with machine guns were holed up in. (A block from where I worked.)
To be politically incorrect, you could compare homicide rates (per capita) in like cultural backgrounds in the US and Canada -- e.g. Anglo Americans vs Anglo Canadians. You'll find little difference.
-- Alastair
The facts are simple : no guns = no way to shoot someone.
Yes, and : no gravity = we all float into space.
The guns are there, millions of people own them, and only the tiniest fraction of a percent use them against other people.
So, do you have a magic wand that'll make all guns instantly disappear, or will you forget that nutty fantasy and focus on real-world solutions?
(Oh, and as for "even if it takes 50 years to remove them" -- you're fooling yourself. It will never happen. You can't get there from here.)
-- Alastair
Correction, the NRA has not lobbied for such laws. Those things have always been legal in this country. Rather, they have lobbied against laws that would make it illegal.
And while black-powder guns (usually muzzle-loaders) are have their own small group of enthusiasts (there's even a special hunting season for muzzle-loaders), I think your 50lb without a permit is exaggerated. Federal regs aside, that'd violate most fireworks ordinances.
But making black powder is a trivial exercise. I haven't looked lately, but when I went to school in Canada, you could (and I occasionally did) get all the ingredients at the corner drug store.
(Sigh. It used to be fascinating to watch folks blame inanimate objects for human failings -- it was usually evidence that they felt they had some of those failings themselves. Now it's just boring.)
-- Alastair
What do you think the government is? Are they some big magical force waiting to take everything away from you at a given instant?
Well, s/magical/armed/ and you certainly describe some Canadian governments that I used to live under. Let's see, the Ontario government took away the right of doctors to bill patients for treatment given. The Quebec government took away the right of business owners to post signs in their native language, if that happend to be English. The federal government took away a number of rights overnight by imposing the War Measures Act (later lifted).
And that's not even mentioning those lovable folks at Revenue Canada (filed your income tax yet? 3 days until April 30th) and the GST.
-- Alastair
Most of the dialog here and in yesterday's thread was in reaction, and sympathy, to all the geek kids out there being persecuted because of the assumption that Harris and Klebold were also geeks. We're sure as hell not defending those two, who may not even have been geeks as some of us would relate to.
Harris and Klebold were plain evil. They plotted this for about a year -- and who know what else they had been up to that was never pinned on them. (They were convicted of breaking into a car a year or so ago).
That they may or may not have been geeks is irrelevant to the murders (except as oppression may have added a little to the hate they already seemed filled with). But that fact seems to be overlooked by the administrators, teacher, parents and cops who are now making life an even bigger hell for geek kids (who've done nothing wrong) because of this.
That's what all (or most) of this discussion is about.
-- Alastair
"Matthew C," the final author in the column, wondered if there was some sort of organization out there to support those who will, if they live, grow up to be the next generation of Slashdotters.
:) organization of been-there geeks, counselors, and others who can help these kids get thru the Hellmouth when no one else will.
.... the rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
I don't know that there is. There should be. If there isn't, WE should make one. An all-volunteer (Open Source?
And I'm going to go way the hell out on a limb and volunteer to coordinate the effort.
I need someone who can volunteer a co-located server and bandwidth, a webslinger, and some folks who know something about counseling. I'll handle the sysadmin end of it. (If someone wants to point me at an IRC server HOWTO, I'd appreciate it.)
If someone thinks they can do better, go for it; I just want to see this done. If somebody doesn't, we'll end up with all the smart ones selected out, and
Talk to me, people.
Glenn Stone
"This was the moment I was born for!"
-- Michael Garibaldi
FastFood for thought:
On the previous Hellmouth article, someone posted about Nerd Revenge, suggesting that getting a better job, a better spouse, and a better car means that you "won" and the jock working at McDonalds "lost". I like to tell myself this, but I'm not so sure it is true.
What does it mean that you won on these criterion? You sacrificed everything you cared about when you were oppressed in high school-- freedom, deep intellectual concerns, a love of good books and good stories, general geeki-ness, and tried to beat the popular croud at their own game. So now that you are rich, well dressed, have lots of friends, and are tied 24/7 to your cell phone doing internet consulting... have you won? You bought into their ideals and sacrificed what you cared about. Sleeping with that popular person's boyfriend (or girlfriend), driving a porsche, and having them get your fries isn't what winning at life is all about.
To the people still stuck in school: Middle school was hell. High school was hell. If you are lucky, you manage to slide by on the sidelines, keep your D&D friends, keep your computer, and keep learning. If you aren't, someone "cracks down" on you and takes away the things that are expanding your universe. Life is infinitely better in college; you'll find more people like yourself, be able to control what you buy, what you watch, what you do. You will [mostly] be rewarded for being intelligent and dedicated.
-m
When I was entering high school, my parents and I were looking at my attending the Illinois Math and Science Academy. A public magnet school for gifted students across the state, IMSA placed a huge focus on (you guessed it) math and science, and I'm sure the campus was full of geeks, just like Slashdot :) It was a nine-month boarding school, with classes basically four days a week and an internship on the fifth.
A few weeks before I was planning on applying, a friend of the family was suspended from school. He came home and explained what had happened. According to him, there was an EXTREME amount of physical hazing at IMSA. He told horrific stories of things he had seen, things done to him, and things he (unfortunately) did to others. The administration consistently looked the other way, until this incident (I don't remember the specifics, but it was an extremely bad incident).
Since then, I've met others who loved the school, but his story convinced me not to apply. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't (I found my niche on the debate team and never looked back). This just serves as a reminder that even within the "geek" class, the same problems are bound to come up as we're blaming on the "jocks" or "preps" or whomever.
Ryan
I have unfortunately met very few school administrators that actually care about the concerns of students. Of the many times my parents and I dealt with the school district administration (I'm now 19), I can say that there was only one administrator that really cared about the students. Many times we went to the administration with issues about teachers (including one who intentionally abandoned my best friend an hour away from home). We were always treated with hostility, as if we were "making a scene." We never had enough time to get our concerns addressed; instead, we ended up defending ourselves from personal attacks by the administration!
I don't think this was limited to my school district, either. A friend of our family is a teacher in another district, and she describes similar occurrences with her principal all the time. Fortunately, there are a lot of teachers who care about the students, but it's nearly impossible to get the administration to work in the student's best interest.
Ryan
12.)School officials are idiots.
13.)Doom is an old game.
14.)Porn? Pointing blame at things that had absolutly no influnce on the matter.
I know there is more..
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Middle school wasn't hell.. I was respected by everyone.. Everyone liked me the punk geek.. Ok 2 people didn't like me, one teacher and some steriod taking sissy jock.
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Usually I just ignore it, but one day in my senior year I stood up and told him get up and start fighting.. He was like, nah mah.. sit down..I continued to say, what are you afriad? reply, nah I just don't want to fight.. He knew that I might be 3 times smaller than he was, he knew I would of taken him down in heart beat becuase of the 4-5 years worth torment he dealt out to me and I knew martial arts.
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Hehe.. Sorry had to laugh at it..
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
How many went to school in the south?
Personally, I went through 3 1/2 years of school in the south and found out something interesting. The schools spend more than they have in overall cash for the football team than the do on education. I thought school is for education. Since when are sports concidered an education. What knowlage do you gain from this? Nothing.. You learn how to hit people hard while running with a ball in your hand, ect..
I say that we demand the schools to remove all sports! Spend the money on teaching our kids useful things and bringing up our school from the shit holes they are.. My HS was a shit hole, but the 5 million over budget stadium looked like a damned palace...
Who with me petitioning the schools and government on a movent to remove sports from schools on the theory that the school are waisting their money.
Going on just bitching about my HS and sport, they are now advertizing for Rebook, the only thing gained is that the kids playing sports get half off on Rebook shoes..
Ok, enough about me ranting.. Just thinking about the evil of sports in school and trying to remove it from your local school.
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
'Principal stopping people from using rubber bands to hit me with paper clips not because it was wrong, but because if I got hurt he'd actually have to do something...'
You actually like that? *giggles*
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Should we collect all the posts and comments made this whole week and send them to ever newspaper, radio station and television station in the US?
Sounds like we might be able to be heard in our own voice.. Knowing my luck, I would be presented as some sort of physco crazed sex, drugs, anarcy 19 year old male..... Eh, the media is evil.....
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Yeah, the 70's.. Just about everyone was in the dope scene..
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I like the ACLU.. My school tried to ban 'satanic' items, clothes, necklaces and blah blah blah.... But that backfired becuase they allowed all the christan things to go on, like prayer in front of school and all that..
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
So you are saying it's ok to allow this wonderful 'EDUCATION' money that is taken from the citizens and used to support sports in any way shape of form. School is a place to recieve an education, playing sports is not an education IMO, becuase throwing a ball is not hard, nor kicking it..
We need to put the money back were it belongs, to the help of providing the tools which can help educate our students further, and stop lacking in the education poll.
I graduated in 97, guess what, I had to have a micro-computer class, what did that teach me. It taught me that I can operate an old piece of crap with software so outdated and never used in the real world.
Hell, if they didn't go over budget on the stadium, you know what I could of learned back then. I would probably be pretty good w/ SQL server becuase the would of spent their money on MS Access for their database program. But no, I had a crummy PS/2 using some old dos DB program which taught me nothing about what the real world applications being used these days.
My school was thinking about cutting the fine arts departments out, like Drama, even thou I was not a fan of drama myself, that still was a big part of our school and it taught you have to express your feeling though acting.
The people that delt w/ athletics got free clothes, leather jackets and things to make them stand out all over. But the smart kids that graduated top of the class, being the top 5% of that whole year recieved a lil' pin saying Top 5%..
So spending this money on sports is taking away from the dire educational needs of this country. I can't say I went to the worse school in the nation, I have seen worse. But that was because it was a low income city that could not afford new busses or even replace 15-20 year old books.
So I guess that I should say the state should take the education money and put it where is it need across the state instead of giving these schools bonuses for kids being at school. If say, alabama, if i'm not mistaken, were to do this, the could fix some of the school that are in the condition up above and help educated those that live in low income cities.
I'm not affraid of the jocks and their egos, i'm affraid that we are depriving our own people of a right. Knowlage is power, and that is true becuase the knowlagable ones make the money and there for money makes the world go round. If america sits here and disagree's that we don't need more money for the education of our student, and that we should keep doing what we are doing, I would have to say that I am not proud to be an american becuase of what the american population supports.
By going against what i'm saying, you are basically saying that you are supporting the product of ignorance. No education = high proverty = high un-employement = a shitty place to live, becuase we made these people who they are, we would could of made this country a better place to live and actually be proud about being an american.
If there are any grammer mistakes or spelling mistake, oh well. I'm not claming to be the best speller nor quite awake at the moment. Just I want people to see what is going on here in this country, becuase as sad as may seem to you, the subject of kids not recieving a decent education becuase the school spends more money on the muscle bound jocks, makes me want to cry becuase I feel that I cant do a damned thing becuase no one listens or doesnt think this could not be over-come.
That's all for tonight.
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I personally never met a single on that cared about the students, they were in it for the money. It's funny to that my old HS has a Vice Principle that used to be on the New York Jets, but I work another school as a coach, and from what I have heard from everywhere is that this guy was fired for selling steroids to Kids. It's funny how we allow the people into our school. But if you want to go off on schools, go off on what is happening in Dallas County, Texas......
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Wait, they are gay now? Media has gone off and stated that these guys were neo-nazi and addition to this they are gay? Anyone see the problem with that statement.. But I have seen it before..
A mexican nazi, condradition of terms, but he supported it, but he was the one that also said the Dead Kennedys were racist and that Maryln Manson was punk..
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Now I can't reply on page 2 to the comments..... Blah!
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
It's producer, for future refrence.. But if someone were to do a movie, it would be strange w/ all the comments brought up about the subject in the past week.. a couple thousand comments to read.. Boy what a task.. I would watch it, becuase i'm just plain strage.
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Ok.. I think yesterdays post should of been enought to make someone tired.. Personally i'm tired of hearing all this. To follow up, he are the points that are being made. /.'ing /. ....
1.)Jocks how super inflated egos that were produced by their coaches.
2.)The rich people think they are always right, becuase money make the world go round....
3.)Media has been making this worse than it is by spreading lies.
4.)American are showing off their right to freedom of thought, and showing the rest of that most americans are a bunch of dumbasses.
5.)Guns, games, movies, internet and parents could have some effect on the whole deal, but not proven.
6.)Most likely these kid were just born fucked up
7.)Worse violence is found in the lower class areas.
8.)Geeks have feelings too.
9.)We all got spammed with religous email about the whole deal
10.)They were bad shoots.
11.)This even has made the un-thinkable happen,
Anything thing else I missed?
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
But the act of being able to share your story with someone outside of your own immediate friends (many of whom may have been in that same high school situation) can be the most useful, cathartic experience that a person can have. Honest expression of oneself is the foundation for all modern psychotherapy. I absolutely applaud /. for these articles.
The scarier part about all this is how people are labeling the killers as 'freaks and mentals' or the equivalent. And to some extent, it's true. Only someone with a little bad wiring would take the hate this far. But at the same time, anyone with 'bad wiring' would be targeted and picked on even more in the school setting.
I won't bring my own experiences into this (they're just like all the others, picked on and what not), I just feel that someone has to say that labeling the killers any futher is possibly a little hypocritical. Labels and what not started this whole thing.
If they were nuts, they probably woulda taken more heat for it. And that would just make it all worse.
The same reason you didn't ban trucks after Oklahoma. You aren't immune from terrorism. No-one is nowadays.
As for our gun laws; we never expected to stop all deaths by guns, just reduce the number and scale of such incidents. Some statistics for you. There are 8000 children per year killed by handguns in the US compared to 100 in the UK. Even taking population sizes into account thats a big difference. And I suspect this statistic was gathered before we banned handguns outright.
You sound like you have a healthy attitude towards guns. Aren't you worried by the thought that guns are _so_ freely available in your country that any nutcase off the street case buy one?
Chris (UK)
Sig pending!
No, but then the people above haven't been driven over the edge. If the Littleton madmen hadn't had guns, how many more people do you think would have survived?
Nice attidude, dude. Your paranoid gun culture is unhealthy. I'd rather feel free to walk the streets of my country thanx.
Chris (UK)
Sig pending!
I'd love to go into miserable detail on why my formative junior high and high school years were filled with terror and alienation, but it would be just another scar on the collective /. belt so I'll leave it at that. (How did I get through? Found a few other like-minded individuals, channelled that energy into writing, listened to "Quadrophenia" incessantly.)
More important to me is that the public education system is so ass-backward that it doesn't recognize the need to support its top students, the ones most likely to feel the pangs of alienation. Schools that have fought an uphill battle to have tracking (i.e. grouping intelligent kids together) are going to be hard-hit by the Columbine massacre. I'm sure we'll see folks saying that we can't trust all these geeks, nerds and gamers together or they'll turn out like the TCM. Well, obviously that's not the case -- the Denver killers had no support network, that's part of what drove them to do what they did. Smart kids need other smart kids around to understand them. Often their parents don't. I know when I'm a parent, I'll do my damnedest, having been there before, but only systemic change to the education system is going to make a substantial difference, regardless of the efforts of any parent.
The lowest levels of our society have miles of support groups, and schools are required by federal law to provide special education and counseling services to the worst performing students. However, nothing mandates similar programs for the top tier of kids, and we have to squeak by on what sustenance we can gain from the few parents and teachers who know what it's like to be the one crawling from the garbagecans.
Wes
QWxsIHlvdXIgQmFzZTY0IGFyZSBiZWxvbmcgdG8gdXMh
Agreed...
All of this talk about the maligned, brilliant outcasts who just 'see things differently' is such bull.
Being a geek in no way means you are necessarily an outcast (and vice versa).
All of these people whining is really just 'I am socially inept and am picked on because of it. I tend only to relate with inanimate objects.' Lots of these people *are* socially inept in high school..and many times their problem subsides as they beef up their social interaction skills as they grow older. Sure, there will always be a shafted few...but the general case is not to be shafted 'just because'. Have some backbone! Stand up! All of this talk of being pushed around and made fun of...is your skin really that thin? Are you that easy to get to? Everyone experiences this to a degree...it's part of growing up and learning to deal with adverse situations (social ones, in this case)...
CJK
Last night, after reading "Voices from the Hellmouth," I thought about creating some sort of web site for people going through this, as I have. Maybe a place where kids can vent, talk to other kids in similar situations, and get help on specific topics like suicide, racism, obesity, etc. Judging from the responses to the story and even some of the e-mails posted in this one, other people must want to help too.
Unfortunately, since I don't know Perl/CGI/etc, I can't create a truly dynamic web site and therefore can't spearhead the project. However, I would love to contribute to such a project any way I can, through ideas, content, web design, etc.
Please post if you're interested in doing something like this. I for one can't help but want to reach out and help the kids who are going through the same torment I went through.
It's even simpler than that, I think: straight Darwinism will explain it (unless I've misunderstood what Social Darwinism is).
If someone bullies others in their formative years, they considerably reduce the others' chances of reproductive success, because this success requires a basic level of self-confidence and social skills. Bullying can squash those skills before they've had a chance to develop, or at least slow down that development. I think boys being bullied by other boys is another form of male competitiveness, which I think is largely to do with competition for the best mates.
FWIW, I'd echo the comments of those people who said that it gets better at college (A-Levels in the UK, I guess) and university.
I live in Georgia, which is the source for many of the guns used in NYC. We have very few restrictions here. The problem with local restrictions is they only work if you can keep the guns from coming in from elsewhere.
"It was me against the world, I was sure that I'd win.... but the world fought back, punished me for my sins" - Social D
Oh man. This makes me being slammed into lockers look like nothing. I'm so sorry. And good for you for fighting so hard to get over it.
Laura
I have to agree. I'm Canadian too, and as I mentioned earlier, it seems that sports are what make a big difference between Canada and the USA. Sports were a part of the scene in my school but as you say, it was no more important than other clubs or groups. Whereas the local community would follow the exploits of the local high school teams in the US, in Canada is was not important. The only people in the stands at our basketball or football games were students.
Other writers commented that the teachers in their schools would be just as enamoured with the "jocks", and would therefore look the other way if they did something wrong (I thought it was just a stupid cliche in American movies -- "You can't arrest Johnny! He's captain of the football team and has a big game tomorrow!").
That's my two cents.
Racism, Hitler worship, Nazism....
These are things which did contribute and were evidentely just as much a part as anything else.
Yes, there we all ahve horror stories of High school, being declared social outcasts because of being different, disliking the "popular" kids, and that can lead to hate - but I know few geeks who have then resorted to white supremacy.
Reform the school social ladder to protect those who are different yes, but I can't really sympathize with those who elevate hatred as these kids have.
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What we need is a UNION not an escape. Hold our ground. I know that union conjors up negative images for most, but the basic idea is simple - people banding together and threatening to remove the most valuable thing they have - themselves - from those who need them.
This goes beyond high school and into the business world as well. Think about it - most companies need their tech people more than their marketers to function. Society as a whole needs geeks more than geeks need many aspects of society.
just a crazy idea.
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I can't disagree with you there. I was alienated and abused by my peers through the 8th grade. Then one day, by some freak occurance, I hit 3 doubles in a ballgame in gym class and won the game. Soon after, a couple of people "reached out" to me and told me that if I were a little more sociable in general life and occasionally joked back life could and would become a lot easier. I never became popular, but life did lighten up. My high school circle consisted mostly of "converted" outcasts. We often competed in sporting competitions, sometimes making fools of ourselves, but the "jocks" saw that we were making an effort to be "human" in their world and they did some of the same. Maybe I'm just lucky.
I think i am correct in thinking that those who are truly "intelligent" are the ones who can look objectively at the "drones" that follow each other and conform to the "norm" blindly and choose not to be that way.
If conformity is rewarded and being different is considered wrong... how free are we as a people? And therefore are countries like China any less free? We dont kill our people for not conforming, or do we?
Replies requested,
t0ast.
Why do they always get it wrong? Why is it that teachers and principals always look the other way? Simple, they've never been there themselves.
Sorry for being highly stereotypical, but most geeks and nerds don't end up as teachers and principals.
As with the teachers and administraters across the country, the adults at my school who are payed to teach and take care of us are taking things too far. At my high school there is no question of "could it happen here" because a kid brought a gun and knife to school last month planning to kill a girl who refused to go out with him. The situation was diffused and played down at the time, the student body was informed, but there weren't any changes in policy. Now however, the principal and the deans have taken things to extremes. The school paper had an article in it about death, which was unfortunate but not planned because it went to press before the murders, however our principal doesn't understand that, flipped out in front of the faculty, and has been throwing away all the papers he can find. All this does is show us students that he's irrational. Another boy had been distriubting a magazine he'd made of questionable taste with numerous drug references and even a picture of a naked woman, but did he get in trouble for those things, of course not! The deans threatened to expell him because there were two lines in it that were violent. And now we students are not allowed to stay after school and do work, the administrators are worried that something could happen with all of us not under constant supervision--maybe we'll run around the school and do bad things. This isn't sending the right message to the students, it makes for an environment where there is no trust and a lot of fear. How do they expect us to learn in a place like that?
Roma vivit!
No social institution, peer group or extra-curricular activity can have as much influence as a child's parents do during his/her first 12 years. I can't overstate how important these years are in determining how a person approaches life.
My personal story mimics many that are posted here. My family moved when I was going into the 5th grade and it totally turned my world upside down. Fortunately I have increadible parents and I was able to make it through all the bullsh*t of my last 8 years of public school.
I went off to a well respected private college and I have now started a very promising career in the Tech Industry. I owe a majority of my success to the loving and supportive family life I had while I was growing up.
I've seen it happen. If kids don't get the support and love that they need at home, then their peer group will become extremely influential in their teen years. There are also cases where some chemical/biological issue is going on with them, but these are few and far between.
The most encouraging aspect of all of this is the word is getting out to the 'geeks', 'loners' and 'outcasts' in HS that they are not alone. There are many who have, and other who currently do, share their same experience. You can make it through. Yes, the HS social structure is much like prison and it make sense only on a superficial level. But the storm can be weathered and there is a rainbow at the end. The 'real world' doesn't operate by the same rules rules as HS.
In all things moderation.
My experiences in an English school weren't very good. I agree that the problem is worse in America; I think that this is probably due to the "if you don't succeed then you are nothing" attitude which seems to plague the USA.
My class at school had a few kids who were seen as the really popular kids. A lot of other kids hung around with them and went along with what they did and said. Some kids, like me, refused, and we got singled out for verbal abuse. I never got physically attacked, thank goodness, though some did.
Of all the "outcasts" in my class, I got some of the worst verbal abuse, because I had nothing in common with the "in crowd". I wouldn't go out underage drinking with them. I wouldn't use bad language. I was the only member of my class with any firm religious convictions. I studied hard. I was utterly useless at sport, and took no interest in soccer or cricket. Basically, I stuck out like a sore thumb, and was an obvious target for vicimization. At lunchtimes, I hung around in the computer room with the other nerds. On the occasions that I hung around in my classroom with the other kids, I just got constant verbal abuse.
The problem isn't confined to American schools. People who are different suffer, no matter where you are. Sigh.
PS: I was at Spalding Grammar School from September 1988 to June 1995. I was in house Wykeham. If any of my tormentors are reading this, I'd like you to know that I have been irrecovably changed by what you put me through. The scars haven't healed. I hope you're proud of yourselves.
Hi.
Posting to this thread is probably like beating a dead horse, but what the hell... It's cathartic.
First of all, I must say that the two Katz articles were definitely the most moving things that I have read in some time. Like most everyone that responded to this thread, I was something of a freak in grammar school and beyond. I was way too smart for my own good. I didn't have many experiences as horrible as some of those that you have posted here, and I was liked; there was just so little common ground between me and my peers (or my parents for that matter), that I turned inward. Being quiet and shy, no one noticed, except for the occasional teacher that took advantage of me, I'm assuming because they felt threatened, and a few wonderful ones that encouraged me any way they could.
I still have bad feelings about those days, but for the last several years I have been congratulating myself (as many of you seem to be doing) on my accomplishments. Many of the people I went to high school with probably look back on those years as the best ones of their life, and here I am, an obscenely well paid software developer and owner of my own consulting company, with so many options available its daunting...
After reading Katz's articles, though, something became clear. In a very real sense, I still am that boy. I still harbor a lot of bad feelings from those days. Healing is not the same thing as learning to cope via avoidance and denial, and ego self-inflation. In fact, such things prevent healing. I am still upset. When I read the stories about kids expressing their understanding of some of the possible catalysts for this tragedy being punished for it, I get so angry. And, when I hear that the Congress is going to look into the effects of Doom on our Nation's youth, I come closer to understanding how years of torture can drive someone over the edge towards violence and hate than I really want to be.
-chris
it will take society a long time to realize it's not the fact that they had guns, but that they wanted them in the first place, that matters.
Sure, you can stop 1 out of 6 psychos if you take away the guns, but it's not the point. Nor is that they had planned it out. In fact, the fact that they planned it out is scarier because it means they were constantly tormented for long enough to finally crack and for an entire year, plan this. How much would it take to get your average disgruntled geek to stay angry enough at an entire population for a year to kill them? Or at least how long would it take before you became so disillusioned you felt what the nazi's where doing was a good thing? (They did, you know, yell seig heil (sp?) whenever they made a strike/spare in bowling.)
The general feeling is that a "Normal" person will never get to either of these points, but as most comments here show, it's simply not true.
It is normal for someone, after intense periods of living hell, to want to exact some sort of "revenge". Not that it is everyone's solution, nor do i condone the violence they were involved in. Or, for that matter, the use of violence to exact revenge. But personally, after years of that crap, and being peaceful, i put one kid who had been abusing me for 4 years in the hospital. And ya know what? I still don't feel remorseful about it. And at least as far as i know, i'm not a "psycho". But pretending they were just completely psycho, with evidence completely to the contrary (read the officer's report on them after getting done with their community service), is blatantly wrong. They may have been driven sociopathic, but they sure as hell didn't start that way.
On a tangent,
It's odd that there is no "Geek rights" activists.
As a population, our young are being severely discriminated against and abused.
Yet no one has formed any groups to try to stop it. I guess part of the problem is also that the young among us must not realize they are not alone. That basically every single geek went through the same hell. Heck, I still remember the names and faces, as i'm sure everyone does.
Back off that tangent,
Also unfortunately, this country (the US) in general has never "gotten it" when it comes to solving problems.
Nobody ever attacks the right part of a problem, or even bothers to try to find it.
Trying to keep guns away from kids who want to kill students is solving step 4 before solving step 2.
It might be good to stop them from wanting to kill students first.
And it might be good to stop whatever caused them to want to kill students first as well.
(Note that i am undecided on the issue of gun control. I just don't particularly have enough evidence either way to hold an informed/defendable opinion)
--Dan
The day microsoft speaks for me is the day i quit.
Microsoft tried to speak for me, so i quit (Toldya i would)
The school wouldn't put me in the academically advanced gifted classes for some reason, and I was board most of the time.
Actually, kids in Canada lack one critical thing
- GUNS
Very few private individuals own or even have
the desire or need to own a firearm. The large majority of people don't even have access to a firearm. We (canadians), also don't have a gun culture where the initial response to any threat is to reach for your 9. That's why the number of murders even in big cities like Toronto are ridiculously low compared to any large american city.
So we're going to turn teachers into police, and schools into a shooting range?? Lovely. Your comments show exactly what the problem is!! It's not only guns, but GUN CULTURE.
Guns are so ingrained into american culture. Everyone's seen one, shot one, owned one. This is a culture that allows and encourages people to shoot each other. People are paranoid that someone else might take them out so everyone's gotta carry a piece to "defend" themselves. Then it comes down to shoot first, ask questions later. Every act of violence in the name of defense is seen as "justified". The society enables people to kill, and because of that, people do.
Where else in the industrialized world do regular people sit around to talk about and compare their weapons? Guns shouldn't be such a normal part of life.
It's terrible. This isn't the way people are supposed to live. America need more than just banning guns, it needs to seriously rethink its values.
In the US (probably elsewhere), we live in a society that hates diversity. Every TV commercial, movie, and social situation ridicules anything that does not fit into a nice homogenized view of things. Just look at how geeks, gays, and various minorities are made fun of on tv. Most comedy is aimed at making someone different the brunt of a joke.
When I look at high school, I see this same lack of tolerance for things that are different. The cool kids essentially are mimicking what they are taught by our society. The poor kids on the receiving side of it go through hell because of this.
We need to start teaching children (and adults) that being different is a good thing. If everyone were really the same it would be a super boring place.
-Tom
P.S. - In understanding some of the forces that may have driven these kids, I have to believe more was going on in their lives. Perhaps abusive parents or a mental illness led them to shooting up a school. As far as I can tell a large percentage of children go through this stuff and never do anything so violent. Violent crime for children is down too.
I had a pretty unpleasant high-school experience, luckily I had enough close friends to help me get by. They were all extremely intelligent, but a few had other characteristics that made them less likely to be picked on -- one played Volleyball for the school team, another was a very good looking and socially adept female.
But I have to say that for me University (College for you US types) was not so much better. I ended up in the "nerdiest" of the Engineering groups (Engineering Physics) and still had to deal with the same cliques and stuff as high school.
Engineering, at my school and others I heard about, doesn't tend to tolerate people who are different. There was a standard dress code, and if you looked too strange.... that was a no-no. If you were too fat, didn't like the right music, or liked classes too much -- you were a freak. I can't imagine how unpleasant it must have been to be a gay engineer. And, for people like me who didn't drink... that was a guaranteed way to be an outcast.
Granted, all of this was better than high school, but it was still pretty bad.
I once again managed to find some good friends and escape a lot of the stupidity, but that didn't mean I didn't feel like an outcast a lot of the time.
Am I in the minority, or did other people find college / university unpleasant as well?
Strange, see I went to what is generally recognized as one of the best, if not the best, universities in Canada (Queen's). It's an old school with a mixed program, lots of arts students, lots of science students, lots of business students, lots of engineers. We even had law students and meds students.
I can't imagine a place that *should* have been more open. However the engineering faculty in particular was very conservative and "cliquey". And again, it was student government, sports and partying that made you cool.
My university was even more diverse. We had arts students, science students, law, business, medicine, nursing, engineering, music...
But the engineering faculty didn't interact much with the other ones. What I experienced wasn't intolerance for geeks. (Although it still wasn't cool to like computers) What I experienced was more looking down on people who didn't like to "party" -- get completely drunk, or who didn't like doing sports or school politics. It wasn't as severe as high school, but it was still hard to be your own person.
Junior high and highschool were met with beatings, and stolen lunches, forced to do others homework, all of it. It was miserable, like everyone has said. In junior high we got in trouble for putting a copy of the Anarchists' Cookbook into the computers (mind you, that would have been about 1983 or so, no internet involved). in high school I got suspended for flashing my knife in the presence of a teacher.
But I never killed anybody. None of us did. Something has changed. What? Is school really that much more of a hell than we had it? I haven't heard about any torture yet. The athletes picked on the geeks, oh no. That's not new. You can't tell me that's to blame for killing sprees.
No, I don't think it's videogames, or the net or the media. Those have all been around for my lifetime too, but I'm not picking up a gun. I think that the very fact that we glorify what's happened is what causes it to happen again.
Think about it. Perhaps the first time truly was a bizarre, one in a million thing with no explanation. Maybe even the second. But how many times does it have to happen before some geeks somewhere, in their depression, start to say something like this:
"Nobody loves me. Look at those kids in Arkansas, look how everybody's crying for them. People all around the country feel for them. How come nobody feels like that for me? Nobody cares that I exist now. I'm never gonna be on tv. If I killed myself tomorrow nobody would care. But if I did what they did, then everybody would see. Then they'd realize how much they miss me, and how much they loved me. That'd show them."
It's true that there are children out there in hell (not just geeks, either). They want someone to recognize their pain, and feel for them. To understand that it's real pain. And tv keeps portraying to them that the world will tell you how much they understand your pain, but they'll only do it after you're dead. It isn't a difficult leap to make from this to "Well fine, I'll show them. I'll cause some pain, and then they'll see what mine was like. Only then it'll be too late. But they had their chance."
It's a catch 22 for us. We want to express our pain (and rage and sympathy and everything else) at what happens at these schools. But in so doing in, and getting so caught up in our media-fueled desire to say "Oh, the horror! Why oh why didn't we see it coming!" we tend to forget that it potentially *was* coming, every day. Almost all of the schools that start counselling programs this week won't still have them in place next year, I'll bet. We'll all overcompensate for awhile, to ease our guilt at having "missed it" with these two kids, who are actually only the latest in what is potentially an endless stream.
I'm not sure I have a solution. I've been out of school for too long, and I don't have kids of my own. Has it really gotten that much harder? I would say that I fear the entrance of drugs into schools, but these killing sprees don't seem to have anything to do with that. Are the athletes meaner now than they were then? I don't know why that would be. If anything, it seems like being a "computer person" is more acceptable these days. Where's all this pain coming from?
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
Is this because we(Canada) have more restrictive gun laws? I've seen a lot of comments about this, I guess because it's a very touchy subject in the States. Yes, and no. Yes because not having access to the weapons(a locked metal cabinet is much easier to get at then going out and buying a gun), means that the scale of the violence is limited. Sure people could still make pipe bombs or other such things, but they aren't as reliable or efficient at killing people. No because having access to a gun does not absolve the attacker of anything. It is still the person that wilfully took the gun and killed someone with it.
After reading all of the comments here, I think the main difference is that I don't know anyone who didn't love high school. Sure people formed different cliques, and perhaps the cliques as wholes may not have interacted with each other much, but it was very commonplace for individuals to change between them as easily as a politician before an election. I alternated between Ubernerd, jock, artsie, and for a bit AV guy. In a way it was expected of us to be as multifaceted as possible. Teachers in school would be just as lenient for assignments/tests/etc regardless if you were away playing rugby, going to a trivia tournament or filming a school event, in most cases they encouraged us to do as many things as possible whether or not we were any good at it. There was less of an us verses them mentality in high school because at any time we could be on either side, and so it makes it much harder to dehumanize your fellow students. Something that it appears was very prevalent in more than a few of your high schools.
In fact from what i can see, the American attitude is like that of the Olympic Games: "Citius, Altius Fortius"(Faster, Higher, Stronger), whereas the Canadian attitude is more like that of the Special Olympics: "Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." In other words, for Americans(gross generalization alert!!!) winning and differentiating yourself from those around you, is more important than the cameraderie gained by experiencing common events.
Not sure what exactly it says about us but I thought it was worth mentioning
Oh, and glad to see that there wasn't as much Katz bashing as there has been in the past.
Anyways, that's my $0.02 (or $0.013 American)
Since your UID is smaller than mine, I can only conclude that you're trolling. -s20451 (410424)
I found one article about a town meeting. It seems like some people actually have a bit of a clue. I especially like the quote:
When I was in high school (not a pleasant experience for me, either), my friends and I did research on the topic of students rights and went so far as to contact a lawyer specializing in constitutional law. Our focus was whether or not we had the right to have our opinions printed as editorials in the school newspaper when they contradicted those expressed in a pro-Cheerleading editorial. If we didn't have the right to publish our viable arguments to the contrary, we wanted to find out if we had the right to start up our own competing newspaper. The short answer to both of our questions was no.
All of our research into this subject has shown that, since the Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Disctric case in 1969, subsequent court cases have stripped students of many of their rights. Our evidence showed that high school students do, essentially, leave their most rights at the gate when they walk onto school grounds. Most student rights were stripped from them in the attempt to "protect" students from the harsh realities of the real world.
Ironically, these measures created a place who's reality is much harsher than all but the worst places on Earth.
Just because "it's not going to go away", or "there's probably nothing that can be done about it" doesn't make it okay for geeks, goths, and other 'outcasts' to be tormented every day of their lives. No wonder these two guys went over the edge, it seems like they were mental to begin with (no relation to their choice of lifestyle) and the hell that they were given every day just make them worse and worse until they snapped.
I went to school with many goths, many people who wore trenchcoats. Were they looked at as weird? Definitely. Did some people think they were satanic? Of course. Did they get hell for it? Absolutely. Did they kill people because of it? Certainly *not*. Just because people wear a trenchcoat, or choose the goth lifestyle, doesn't make them a potential murderer.
_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
Commodore 64 Democoder
FC Closer
How about collecting all of this material,
both article and comments and sending it to
some of the more controversial movie producers?
Perhaps all of this anger could be expressed
in the media in this manner.
The movie would actually _have_ to be controversial to reach the masses, and you could
argue that all it would create is outrage.
But perhaps it is a very small chance that some
people may open their eyes.
Let's not make this discussion into a catalogue of traumatic high school experiences. For one thing, remember that anyone who made it to Slashdot has amassed some advantages, thus there is a common class thread running through many (not all) of our reminiscences. For another, much of the trauma of high school may be inescapably bound into adolescence. If we let the lesson of this incident be that "life sucks for people (geeks) like us, so we need to make it better", we have lost in the moment we grasp victory! If you once agree to the memetic framework in order to improve your standing in it, you are trapped.
Go much deeper instead. Realize that, for reasons of their own, those with power in our society encourage the endless reflexive division into spheres of special interest and shared assumptions. Find tiny ways to make particles of sense (appearing as nonsense to the poster-flat group mind) in the tepid glossolalic soup that keeps us from seeing reality. Look for the coercion in every economic relation, and ask yourself whether it should be there and whether you want to touch it.
Only once we begin to free our own minds from their baggage of groupthink and trauma (including high school experience) can we start reaching out to infect others with sanity.
Constructive logic destructs my brain.
What? Are you for real?
I find it hard to believe such a situation would exist...
In my school,we geeks were despised by all, including most of the teachers.
We'd be the ones asking hard questions in class which the teachers would rather not deal with (they are for the most part very lazy, you see). I can still remember losing interest after grade 2 when I was on the honor roll for straight A's. Challenge met, no new challenges, BORING! I can only remember 2 teachers in my entire school career who actually cared a rat's ass to teach me anything . Even now my heart overflows with contempt for that pathetic institution they dare call education.
My kids most certainly will NEVER go to public school.
I can still remember the pitiful sight I saw as I went to my first sci-fi club meeting at my highhell. It was the sorriest sight I saw. So many outcasts left in some corner hovel where they eek out some form of existance and share their love for D&D and Paranoia (my favorite!).
I was lucky in highhell because I was big, and so very few people tried to pick on me. (Some people tried at times, but I set them straight on that issue).
I first started in public school in the 4th grade.
From there through the 6th grade, I was one of the most popular kids in school. I always had a girlfriend. I got good grades. Then puberty set in. My junior high years 7th thru 9th grade were bad. I was no longer popular. Girls didn't like me. I lost interest in them. My grades started suffering. But through it all, I still knew right from wrong. My best friend began hanging out with some kids I knew were trouble. I could have hung out with these guys. But I chose a different path. High school started and I made new friends. I started participating in sports again. I graduated from high school in 1985. I took Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, and AP Biology. I scored 1200 on my SAT's. A nerd? But guess what? I also played football and baseball. A jock? So basically I experienced both sides.
I must have graduated from the greatest high school in the country, because I do not ever remember a "jock" ever beating up a nerd or geek. As a matter of fact, I do remember an occasion where a "nerd" was defended by a "jock" against the true problem kids, those who didn't care about school or athletics, just wanted to get stoned or drunk.
I notice a lot of you take an "us versus them" attitude. Which is precisely the same attitude you probably took in high school. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for expressing your individuality and finding your own identity. There is a lot of pressure on kids to fit in. I suffered through junior high because I didn't "fit in". But I overcame that. Most kids do.
Someone wrote "Why do we murder the spirits of our most gifted and talented young people? THEY are the ones that are our future. THEY are the ones that are best equipped to build the world to their hopes and dreams." I'm sorry, THEY are NOT our future. Our future lies in those students who are respectful to their teachers, fellow students, and
parents. Our future lies in those students who re outgoing academically and socially. In fact most successful students also participate in extra-curricular events such as sports, debate,
forensics, academic clubs, and cheerleading. These are the kids who usually go on to college and become successful. How do you think these kids who can't adjust to high school can EVER adjust to the real world?
So while some of you spend all your time playing on the computer or playing video games or fantasy board games, there are other kids out playing soccer or baseball or basketball, developing a better self-esteem, developing communication skills. There is plenty of time later in life to stay locked inside. Believe me, I would much rather be outside now than trapped in my office 8 hours a day.
To anyone reading this who is still in school: If you are being picked on by individuals or groups, report it to your principal. If they don't do anything about it, call your school system's superintendent. If that doesn't help, write a letter to your newspaper. Someone will listen
eventually.
If any of you have thought about suicide or actually getting a gun and bringing it to school, get yourself some professional help. Don't try
and solve these problems yourself.
Finally, a piece of advice for everyone. Get out of the house once in a while. Turn off your computer, tv, and video game. Close the books. Go outside. There's a big yellow gaseous ball of fire in the sky called the sun. It can do wonders. Go sit on a beach or visit a park. Go rollerblading. Just do something. Peace.
Jeff Self aka "jocknerd"
So you think society has always gotten worse, or that all the improvements in human life were accidental?
... Huh, like the Settlement Houses and adult suffrage could conceivably have been accidental - either you have a definition of "social engineering" so unusual that you should include it; or you have a really short knowledge of history.
Granted, no single Big Idea works forever, but lots of intentional improvements to society have worked. It's like gardening. You have to keep tending it, but that doesn't mean it's accidental or useless, it just means it's complicated.
Well, if your public school assigned you Asimov's Foundation series instead of actual history texts, you do have something to blame them for, but you sound old enough to mend the error yourself.
- I mention Foundation because your idea of social engineering is unusual; it was kind of you to finally define it, but you have no evidence that monolithic efforts are the only ones that deserve the name. Do you believe the same of physical and software engineering?
Social engineering efforts that have succeeded; the settlement houses were the beginning of organized social work - they were set up to help immigrant communities (e.g. Eastern Europeans in Chicago at the turn of the century), by trying all sorts of small programs, keeping track of results, and expanding the successful ones. They had fairly clear goals - lowering mortality, increasing political representation, etc. - and were remarkably successful. A few very determined people managed their policy.
The US government had a clear social policy intent when it set up land transfer to the railroads and homesteaders in the "opening" of the West. Very successful, did exactly what they wanted it to.
Head Start works. So does Mondragon, and it's been working for fifty.
The most frightening aspect of Katz's article is that the self-proclaimed "geeks" who have written to him seem as much a product of socialization as the "jocks" they condemn. While ostensibly rejecting oppression and conformity, many are still slaves to these attitudes themselves. They still think in terms of the group and how to please (or displease) others. Most disturbing is the 26-year-old who feels no need to go to college "to prove that I have the facilities to be a meaningful member of society" -- completely disregarding the many individual benefits of a university education.
American schools have quickly become killing fields for individualism, thanks in no small part to esoteric educational theories being circulated among academics -- and being tested out on our children. In failed attempts to make education "sensitive" to a child's self-esteem, educators have managed to destroy any and all sense of individual self-worth. Indoctrinating children with the dogma of collectivism and relativism, the schools force the child to subjugate his individual thoughts to that of the group -- making him submissive, frightened, and intellectually impotent. Children who refuse to take part in this crusade are labeled antisocial or, even worse, diagnosed with ADD.
The virtues taught in today's schools are no longer those of freedom and self-reliance, but of duty and self-sacrifice. The former embodiment of the American Dream -- the successful entrepeneur, the self-made man -- has been scrapped in favor of the obedient serf who dutifully performs his mandatory community service. Even in the field of mathematics -- typically a geek haven, where it never mattered how cool or strong or popular you were, as long as you had the intelligence to get the right answer -- traditional math is being replaced by "group math," where the collective decides on an answer by consensus, whether or not it is objectively correct. In fact, postmodern educational theorists reject the concept of objective truth altogether.
Is it any wonder, then, that children turn to violence -- children who feel that the system has chewed them up and spit them out, leaving only a self-loathing shell of a human being? If we do not allow America's children to empower themselves with their minds, they have little choice but to empower themselves with guns. This is our national shame.
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
The coverage that Jon Katz is giving here needs to be understood by the traditional media. There have been so many angles played on this, scapegoats all around, but none of it is facing the truth.
The games, the movies, the subculture, is all an escape from the realities that hundreds of people are stating here. Is America blind to this?
I wonder what the take on this is in other countries. As I have seen a few people mention, you don't see this sort of thing in Canada, for example, and they have access to everything the kids here do.
There are places out there to help - one of my coworkers is mentoring a teen and trying to help out - but be carefull I would strongly recommend working in pairs and NEVER being alone with a child in this type of setting because the same hysteria that blames doom will lable a person trying to help a "pervert" (and just that accusation can be devistating). I am a volunteer for the police and I have seen people trying to help get burned in this manner.
There needs to be more non-athletic ways to get to these kids so they have a place to belong - I found a place to belong in amateur radio and technical theater when I was in High-School. This never seems to cross people's minds when they cut the budget for music, theater, and other activities (but leave football alone).
I hope something can be done - I don't want to be responding to a school shooting...
What should we use as a launching point then? There's nothing unreasonable about learning from a tragedy. While I haven't seen anybody here pouring out sentiment for the killers, I believe a reality check is called for.
Why the hell did these kids kill all of those people?
Some few hundred posters think that the reasons given in the boy's diaries and verbal explanations had something to do with it. They hated because they were persecuted. Should that give them a license to kill - of course not! Did Nazi rhetoric play a part? How much of a part? It's really too early to be focusing on the minutia of what lyric in what song made whom do what.
Whatever the reason(s) we must dissect this action and learn from it. I'm not sure what you think our "cause" to be. Basic human rights shouldn't have to be a "cause" in a public school in middle America.
I'm concerned that you don't seem to want "us" (hopefully you mean society as a whole) to profit from this tragedy. That it would be somehow wrong for good to come out of publicizing all of the wrongs involved - by all parties. I believe exactly the opposite. I want to thrust the grizzly details of everything that led up to the shootings into the media and let them have a feeding frenzy. At some point there will be voices of reason - the ones that always after the initial media feeding frenzy People will understand. Not everyone, but more than understood before.
This isn't a nerd thing, it's a human thing.
I grew up in Switzerland where we have a similar system, and I totally agree with you, altough I never had realized it before.
;).
:/ )
I suffered somewhat in the early schoolyears because all the farmers kids (no offense) around were in the same classes, and would rather tear a good novel apart than read it. It was not until I got mad enough once and had a fight with another kid that I gained some respect.
But it got alot better later when those who didn't have any interest in intellectual work went to other schools while I prepared for university. We call the equivalent of US high school "College" (at least in the french part of Switzerland) and there the environment was already alot friendlier for so-called geeks. Hell, we were all geeks
Our programming class teacher, seeing that two friends of mine and me had alot more knowledge than the others let us skip the class altogether and create our own projects which would be rated. We made a civilization clone among others (I guess he also did this to save the other students from being continuously harassed by unknown "chatter" viruses, but that's and other story altogether).
Anyway my point was.. What was it again...(getting all nostalgic)
Yes, it seems to me that our educational system may be a good way to prevent this kind of problems. A counterpoint I see coming already is that this system excludes less gifted children of going to universtity. But I actually think the inverse is the case, because like in Holland, you can switch to the higher levels if your grades are sufficient.
Another thing is that in Switzerland there are only few US style private schools. It's actually the students who aren't able to follow the public schools that go to private ones.
Greetings from Cheeseland
PS: Sorry for all grammar/spelling/etc mistakes... there's still a large part of the world whose native language isn't english (mine is Pascal
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
Blaming the killers will not do that. Banning black trenchcoats will not do that. Even making kids responsible for their own actions will not prevent this sort of tragedy, because you cannot call a suicide into detention.
Recognizing the warning signs--the real warning signs--will help. Knowing how to help a teen deal with stress will help. Caring about a teenager will help. This can be done by faculty. This can be done by other students. This must be done by parents.
God Himself can lay blame; I have no right to. But there are key people who can prevent these tragedies. As a society, we must make sure that these people are both able to do the Right Thing and responsible for doing the Right Thing.
As far as high school being a Nazi Death Camp: it isn't. The closest environment is prison, complete with the inmate pecking order and the eerie cooperation between the guards and the largest group of inmates to "keep the peace". For most of us, it is tolerable because we led productive lives outside those six hours. Most of us had caring parents, and we had nurturing homes to go to.
If you went through school without having that environment, without anyone who cared, you would have broken down. Of those who have been broken, some will get their hands on guns and go postal.
--The basis of all love is respect
First off, I am opposed to ZT laws under all circumstances, because they remove any relationship between the infraction and the punishment. In this case, however, I think it would be worse than other ZT laws.
If these laws were enforced every time, this might work. However, I have no faith that they would because I know that the rules already in place aren't enforced every time.
Let me go back to my own childhood; gym class, junior high. It's a free-form class, with two teachers and (likely) eighty kids. A bully finds me, and another misfit (who was no friend of mine, BTW). The bully effectively chases us around the gym for forty-five minutes trying to start a fight. He takes the other misfit (I was the larger one) and shoves him into me, trying to start a fight between the two of us. I didn't like him, but I had no reason to fight.
During this time, I tried to draw the attention of the teachers. No dice.
The bully gets sick of not being able to get the two of us to fight, and starts beating on the smaller misfit. This still elicits zero response from the faculty. Perhaps the laws against fighting don't cover beatings?
At this point, I have had enough, and have (more importantly) a valid reason to fight. IMHO, there are very few reasons for using violence, and one of them is to prevent greater violence. I reach over and drag the bully down. This is what brings the teacher over, to break the fight up and dress me down for picking a fight.
A zero tolerance law would have sent me up the river. That law would not get the teachers to stop a bully beating on a geek. It would be applied once the beating became a fight, because they then have little choice but to take action. To this day, I feel no remorse, because I feel that I reacted appropriately to the situation.
When the bully attacks, the faculty considers this normal and acceptable. When the geek counterattacks, the faculty considers it unacceptable. That's the problem
Zero tolerance laws would not address that problem, and would be consistently and systematically applied to the geeks and not the bullies.
--The basis of all love is respect
The solution is basic human respect, and genuinely caring about people. I don't mean being smooshy and nice to everybody. Sometimes, respect means using some very harsh words (or worse) to help someone steer away from self-destruction. To care for another human being, to respect them, is to figure out what they need and to provide that.
People cannot be operated like mere machines; even the simplest of us are far more complex than the most complex machine. People are different, and different people respond differently to different things.
Certain groups of people will respond predictably to certain stimuli. If they didn't, the advertising industry would instantly fail. But groups of people are different from the people who make them. Groups of people are very deterministic. Individual people are very non-deterministic, and make the most complex system designed by humans seem as deterministic as stones.
If you're on the Slashdot board, you are likely smarter than 85-90% of the people around you. This makes you no more righteous, no more deserving to live. You are still a person; nothing more, nothing less (apologies to all AI lurkers out there ;^>). You live in a society full of people, many of which don't have the sheer brainpower that you do. That doesn't make them robots. They may be trapped in the fog that you can see over; to me, this implies a responsibility to help clear the fog for some of them, not to get them to march around like toy soldiers. Personally, I suspect that this is exactly what Microsoft's marketing department does and it disgusts most of us here; do the same people who advocate Linux over NT think of most people as zombie robots?
But you live with these people, who you can perhaps see better than. Fair or not, you must learn to live with them, or find a way to get away from them. But treating them like robots will not do that. Treating people like robots will, sooner or later, backfire on you.
--The basis of all love is respect
The answer has been in our hands for almost two millenia. It's just so hard to take that we've been looking for shortcuts all this time, and there aren't any.
--The basis of all love is respect
Every device ever engineered has a set of design specifications. The red line on your tachometer shows one. When you exceed the redline, your engine is going too fast for its own good and you can no longer guarantee that it won't tear itself to shreds and take you with it.
In short, when something exceeds design specs, it can fail. By "fail", I mean to stop doing the job it was designed to do. Engines explode; bridges collapse; processors release blue smoke; software crashes.
People have design specs as well. They're more flexible specs, because a person is a wonderfully complex system. Some design specs are physical, some are mental, some are emotional.
People can only handle so much stress before they exceed their design specs and fail. When a person emotionally fails, they become irrational. In common parlance, they "lose it".
Who here has not exceeded design specs and lost it? I've certainly lost it, and done some incredibly stupid things as a result. But for most of us, it is but a momentary lapse of reason. We lose it, we get out of (or distanced from) the source of acute stress, and we start operating like somewhat rational human beings again.
And then there are people who have exceeded design specs so far, or so constantly, that they lose it and never get it back. In engineering terms, they have "failed" and not recovered. In common parlance, we call these people "sickos" or "psychos".
If this were not bad enough, the fact that we're so complex (compared to machines, anyhow) means that we fail unpredictably. It's like a girder buckling under the pressure; you don't know when it will fail, nor in which direction. Psychology texts are full of ways that people fail to deal with stress. The psych texts are incomplete, and people come up with new failure modes. One of these failure modes is suicidal and homicidal mania.
With all the profiling, the talk about games and bands and coats, people are trying to predict the failure mode. We worry about this kid because he's likely to crack by going postal; we don't worry about that kid because she's likely to crack by popping barbituates and dropping out.
Trying to predict which people will fail by gunning people down is a fool's errand, because we can't tell which way a person will fail. If we can, psychology is incredibly advanced, and I'd love to see some of these psychologists working in engineering firms.
We can tell if a person is likely to fail in any sense. We can't tell when somebody will fail, because we can't accurately gauge their tolerance for stress. We can look at a person, see what causes stress for them, see what relieves stress for them, and look for a mismatch. If the stress is far above the relief, then the stress will eventually surpass any person's capacity. That person is going to break, period.
I can't tell you whether it is possible for a school to do this for students. If it is, it is very hard. It is possible for parents to do so, if they know how and if they care. As a nation (not necessarily as a government), we must give the parents that care the knowledge to look for this. As a nation and a government, we also must require that parents do care about the well-being of their kids, including their emotional well-being. Failure to do so is criminal neglect.
The schools are trying to make themselves safe, due to the media-hyped school shootings. First and foremost, this is a laudable goal. I believe that our schools are acting in good faith, but with bad information and the wrong tools. I'd rather have this than have intentionally malicious people attacking this problem with good information and the right tools. People with good intentions can be trained; people with poor intentions can often only be restrained.
To all the parents and school faculty reading this and actively dealing with the issues of this tragedy, thank you. You have the right intentions. Read this thread, not just this post. Arm yourself with the knowledge and tools you need to do the job effectively.
--The basis of all love is respect
First of all, let me express my heartfelt sympathies for the victims of the
violence in Colorado, their families, and friends.
I'm afraid that this outpouring of "persecuted geeks" may do more harm than
good. I think the truth is, kids are cruel. They pick on each other and
play pranks. This happens just about everywhere in the world, not just in
the U.S. The strange thing about the U.S. is, that if you did a poll, I
suspect the vast majority of kids consider themselves to be outcasts and
victims to some extent. What's missing, even on the part of the so-called
geeks, is a failure of empathy, a failure to realize the impact of their own
behavior on other kids. What we have instead is a "culture of victimhood",
where people try to establish identity and validate themselves by becoming
part of a persecuted group. People relish, embrace, and promote their
victim status, instead of blowing off little incidents and finding a more
constructive way to establish identity. The dangerous thing about
self-styled victims is that they often fail to notice when they are doing
the victimizing.
The culture of victimhood is promoted in the media, movies, TV shows, etc.
What perhaps isn't stressed often enough to children is that we are all part
of society. We should try to understand one another. We should try to get
along. We should look for common ground. We are all victims to some
extent, but most of us get a few lucky breaks, have a few friends, and have
the opportunity to have fun. It does nobody any good to wallow in
self-pity, claim special status due to victimhood, and use that as an excuse
for destructive behavior.
Isn't it strange that a lot of these "victims" in the slashdot posts are
from wealthy families, living in the suburbs, with opportunities that most
people in the world only dream to have? The truth is that by and large,
self-styled geeks are one of the most privileged, spoiled rotten,
self-pitying groups of people ever in the history of humanity.
The _real_ victims, the truly poor, the ones who don't know where their next
meal is coming from, the ones who hear gunshots in their neighborhoods,
aren't for the most part wallowing in self-pity and looking for revenge.
They've seen real violence first hand and they want to avoid it. They don't
want to be victims. They want something better, they want to get out of
their neighborhood alive.
The solution to this problem is probably not on the internet. Part of the
solution is a dose of reality. These kids (and their parents) should get
out more. See more of the world around you. Learn some history. Get some
perspective. Talk to people outside of the internet. Life is more than
"jocks vs. geeks".
Computer games, Goth, black trenchcoats, loud music...
None of these things cause tragedies like the Littleton shootings.
All of these things are merely attempts by isolated kids to create a means of expressing their pain in a way that DOESN'T involve getting a shotgun and blowing off the face of their tormentors. They are not not unhealthy influences that corrupt otherwise innocent minds. They are mechanisms we create in order to avoid giving into our unhealthy desires to haul off and wail away on our enemies.
Suppressing these activities won't make the problem go away. If anything, this will simply limit the recourses these kids have and increase the possibility that they will resort to more violent modes of expression.
We might be smarter, but we're still human
-John
I'm probably the same age as Katz, but I still have *memories* (and not fond ones) of high school. And this is given that I've successfully blocked most of them from memory. Yet, I consider myself much luckier than most in my position. I grew up in a small logging town in the northwest US. At the time I graduated from high school in 1966, there were 22 students in my class and *92* in the school (a four year school)! And, to top it off, I was valedictorian and a National Merit Scholarship finalist.
But, my father had been on the school board since I was in first grade, most of them as chairman. So most of the bad things that might have happened simply didn't with me. There was *no* way that I would have been mistreated by a teacher and not in any physical way by the students. Although, that would not have been a problem anyway. Why?
The basic reason that things turned out relatively well for me was that the school was small. Everyone knew everyone else. The teachers and administrators knew everyone, the students knew everyone. You knew at a glance if there were a stranger on campus.
Granting that changing peoples' behavior and perceptions can't be done in any effective way, what can be done?
Do away with those *huge* educational warehouses. When a school is larger than several hundred, then individuals in that school lose the ability to *recognize* each other. Literally and figuratively. Neither the staff or students can immediately distinguish strangers from students and staff. There is no hope of community in such an environment. Groups forming in such an environment are guaranteed to polarize.
And guns. All these appeals to the second amendment are such a *tired* old wheeze. Does anyone in their right minds *believe* that any number of guns in private hands restrains the actions of the government? Remember what happened to the Black Panthers in the sixties, Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.
At one time, perhaps an armed citizenary was in rough parity to government forces, but that day is long gone.
Conclusion:
(1) No school should have more than 500 students
(2) An honest effort to control assault weapons should be made by society
What do you mean "You can't get there from here." Forget banning guns. Just ban the sales and distribution of ammunition. In fifty years there will still be a lot of slowly rusting guns. It isn't a logistical problem at all.
You know what, I am really sick of all this drivel about Littleton, CO. and sick of kids complaining that their schools or parents are being nosey. Lets get one thing straight, had these kids parents been nosey this wouldn't have happened. Another thing, you children have no "rights", your parents are responsible for your actions, whether you like it or not, so you have to deal with them knowing what you are doing, whether you like it or not. Get off of your high horse and come down to earth Mr. Katz, yes some of these things are a bit extreme, but if it saves lives then it's all for the best.
You want a solution to this problen, lets start with school uniforms and strict curfews. If you can't judge a person by his clothes then it's harder to judge other ways. Lets take it a bit farther, no sports, sports are as much to blame for this incident as any thing else, on second thought lets get rid of schools altogether as they obviously promote this behaviour . Come on folks, parents need a tighter rein on kids these days, quit blaming guns, games, internet, and movies. The fault can be laid directly at the feet of the parents and the school. Hold on before you scream and bitch, the school system is responsible for the children and their actions when they are in school, check your laws on it. The minute school is over the parents become resposible again. So on a serious note kiddies, your parents have a right to anything you "own" or that you put in writing, you have no right to privacy. And again to you Mr. Katz, you are as guilty of sensationalism as the mainstream media.
"If you find a job you love you'll never work a day in your life"
I hope that I can do that someday. Still in school reaching for it.
I found college to be so much better than high school, people just don't bother to be jerks anymore they seem to have better things to do. There is also some selection going on regarding the type of people that will go to the same school you will also.
I think you're on the right track. It's much bigger than that though. The majority are sheep as far as I can tell and it seems to be a self-feeding cycle. The sheep are uncomfortable with the non-sheep, so the ones that are afraid enough will try to make you conform. Students will provoke and adults, who are supposed to be above doing that, will look the other way. It actually explains Windows quite well.
Some of the unpleasantness of high school is common to all kids. It really is just part of life. Sometimes it sucks. But the more severe problems of physical abuse really should be dealt with. I wonder what would happen if you took them to the police. I know it sounds a bit severe but getting beat up in the locker room or thrown through a window is _assult_ and illegal. If the teachers and parents aren't doing anything about it, I believe the law is supposed to cover this.
-Jennifer
I think you need to go further with that idea. I came from a school system where you basically had three choices for high school. There was the "regular" high school, vocational high school (your trade-school), and Catholic high school. There was precious little difference (although, fewer shop kids, but these weren't the people causing me problems in the first place!).
How about if we had public schools for the gifted? It's not cost effective to set one up for each community. If they had a few broadly regional schools throughout the country, it might be worth it. Of course, it would require dorms and maybe other extra costs (better teachers, security), so there would be extra cost, but the payoff might be worth it, as far as society goes.
I'm a bit concerned about what would qualify a student for getting in, though. I was definitely an outsider and I test pretty high, depending on what day of the week you catch me, but I was not grouped with the "gifted and talented" throughout public school. Only when I got to college was I put into the honors program. I think it had something to do with the fact that I had a higher GPA than many honors students in high school and they get a point added to their GPA for each honors class they take (that last bit's there just to justify my opinion that my school had misgrouped me, not because I wanted to toot my horn). So, my question is, who do we put in charge of deciding who's eligble for this hypothical special school when so many normals are out there running the show?
-Jennifer
I went to Engineering school as well (NJIT), but in the US (I'm from NJ). I'm told from some of the profs and alumni that it used to be socially different when it was just an engineering college (Newark College of Engineering). Everyone was male and wore suits. Now it's a technological university with many technology-based majors and a very diverse place. Still largely male (when I went, it was 6:1 male:female), but about half the students were from out of the country and from many parts of the world. In an environment like that, intolerance for geeks doesn't make sense when there are so many others who are even more different. Not that I think that intolerance is OK, regardless of who is being subjected to it.
The campus is located in the middle of Newark which is definitely inner city urban. NJIT campus backs up to Central High, which has a large student body. There was a great culture clash between the students attending the university (especially the students from the suburbs) and the high school kids. Again, who cares about geeks when there are even more different (and dangerous, in the minds of the ignorant) people to worry about?
-Jennifer
What I was talking about was a complete and voluntary segregation, but as I think about it, perhaps it's not such a good idea. Once these kids are out in the "real world" (whatever that is), they still have to interact with the same people, only now as adults. It would probably just deepen the divide.
Another problem with this idea is that I've seen kids who have been victims become the tormentor when put into a group of victims. It seems to be a power thing. Maybe we should be trying to segregate the bullies.
On the upside, if we put a concerted and consistant effort into a special institution, we, as a society, may end up with more adults reaching a greater potential.
I'm still worried about the standards used to qualify a kid as "gifted", even in the current programs (for those schools that have them). I'm even more concerned about the people who are administering these programs.
-Jennifer
It was diverse in major but was it diverse in culture. Actually, when it comes to major, we were all techies, just different disciplines in technology. The engineering school was a bit stuffier than the rest, but we're still all techies at heart. It also helped that NJIT has an honors college with an private lounge and computer lab. The geeks end up congregating there and it's like an in-person /. group. You find out that you're not alone.
-Jennifer
You're an adult now. It's very likely that you either have your own children or influence others' children. Now that you're aware that what you did was wrong, maybe you will be able to explain why it's wrong to today's children, so that they won't going around in ten years thinking about their "Tanya".
BTW, I was a "Tanya". If you do see her at a reunion, in a mall, etc., think carefully about what you say to her. The last thing you want to do is sound patronizing. It's one of my sore spots and I wouldn't be surprised if it is for her.
On a separate note:
This whole geek discussion has made me think about how these attitudes affect us as people in the computer science field. The teasing that is described here reminds me of the name-calling that I get when I say I use non-Windows platforms (BeOS, Linux, MacOS, Solaris), although the present name-calling is a little less childish (usually).
I'm starting to think that just because we mature, this sort of persecution doesn't go away. It just gets redirected and if that's true, I think it's holding us all back.
-Jennifer
Ummm...where do you live that people act like this? I lived and went to high school in rural Missouri, and I spent 5 years in Texas, and in neither place they didn't behave in that manner, even if there where several firearms in most people's homes.
The problem is that there is a lack of respect for others. Taking guns away isn't going to solve that.
After looking at the story, I see that I'm extremely fortunate to have gone to a very small high school -- my class had 120 members. High school wasn't a whole lot of fun, but it was a cakewalk, comparitvely speaking...
Amen to that.
I was a happy geek too - but I had lots of geeky friends, and we had lots of opportunities to do lots of fun and constructive stuff, so we didn't notice or care what other kids thought.
I just worry about the kids who don't have geek peers, or those that don't have constructive outlets.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
As an employer, I don't require my employees to like each other -- but I do require they treat others with basic civility when they are required to interact, and at least with indifference if they can't be friendly. If somebody steps over the line and acts in a way that interferes with the work of others, they get disciplined.
School is the work of kids, and they're entitled to the same protection. As adults, we've abrogated the responsibility to ensure basic physical safety in school, much less the basic civilty necessary to their function.
This is arrant nonsense. People only want to have the basic respect they deserve. They want to be able to live in peace and, if not friendship, benign neglect. "Common ground" is much overrated. It's like trying to fly before you can walk. First you have to learn to act in a civilised fashion.I have a much more concrete program than yours. We should teach kids that
- Physical violence is going to be punished.
- Stealing, damaging or defacing another's property is going to be punished.
- Interfering with the learning of another student is going be punished.
- If you don't like somebody, leave them alone. If you can't be constructive then you have no right to any bandwidth from the object of your dislike.
In our imaginations, maybe. I'm not interested in imagination but a sense of physical security and freedom to pursue education without unwarranted distraction. How do you know that? I haven't complained about my HS experience, but I did grow up in a city that had gang fights (nothing like now, admittedly, because guns were rare -- but people were killed), murders, organized crime, drug pushers; we were the only family I new that lived in a single family home, so I guess were were "privileged". The families of many of my friends were on welfare. Being a geek was my ticket up and out to a better life, for which I'm grateful. But having grown up in, what your view is a lugubrious climate of urban poverty, I don't take threats to the physical safety, property, or educational climate of children lightly.Paducah and the other previous events seemed possible to ignore as outlandish and isolated events. Littleton is a loud wake up call, which apparently you've chosen to ignore, comfortably wrapped in an old blanket of tired and certainly unoriginal polemic.
That may well be true. I don't see myself as a victim, and don't feel the need for self-pity: geekdom has been good to me. But I'm not concerned for me; it's the ones who are kids now -- not just the geeks and the goths, but the jocks too. It's not the same as it used to be -- its nastier and more dangerous.Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I don't want to make sweeping generalizations, but it seems like in many schools student athletes are given license to abuse and even assault their classmates. I know in the town my wife grew up in, the police looked the other way when the football team did acts of vandalism. As a high school geek, I didn't get picked on because I was an avid judo player (surprised the hell out of the jocks when the found that out), but otherwise what happened to Peter could have happened to me.
I don't lay blame at the hands of the kids -- athletes or geeks; IT IS THE ADULTS THAT ARE OUT OF CONTROL. Can you expect a kid to behave in a civilized way if there are no consequences for his or her action? I don't know many adults that I'd trust under those circumstances.
The media backlash against marginalized youth subcultures totally misses the point. There's no way to avoid the popular/unpopular thing with teens and all the baggage of unfairness and shallowness that comes with it. What we need to do as adults is not to take sides. Some kids are geeks, some are jocks; our job is to provide kids with the things they need to explore their identies constructively: education, art, music, theatre, science, computers, clubs -- and yes, athletics too.
Taking sides in the jock/geek thing creates an unhealthy, winner takes all atmosphere where the popular groups get everything: peer admiration, adult respect, money for school programs, and above all a freedom from the basic constraints of civilized behavior which no citizen, much less child, should have. As adults, we need to be on the side of all kids.
For kids like Peter in Boston, I wish I could say that as adults we had our act together better. As a teenager, you won't have any problem seeing we've screwed up pretty badly. There's probably no easy or completely satisfactory answer to your problems. However, there are things you can do to get through.
Also, if you can find a wise and responsible adult who understands you can't just administrate this problem away, he or she may be able to help you find ways of improving the atmosphere in your school. Finally, if you're near Cambridge, there's an MIT student group called ESP that runs programs for smart kids. I don't know what they're offering now, but you might give them a call at 253-4882, or visit there web site: http://www.mit.edu/edsp/www. Any MIT geeks reading this may be interested in volunteering services with this fine organization. Geeks in colleges who want to do something about this situation should also take a look at this group as a possible model.
Like we used to say -- if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
How many civilized nations are there in the world today? I don't think the number is very high. Look at the way we treat each other. I don't think that guns are the solution, but they are far from being the only problem.....
itachi
I read these comments, and recall my experiences, (which pale compared to those related to Katz) the thought struck me that this is exactly a description of discrimination. This can't be that far different to what Black Americans experience now or have experienced.
My reading suggests that it is very difficult to change predjudiced attitudes. However, it is considerably easier to change discriminitory behavior. There is no reason that I as a parent should accept violence against my children as "part of growing up". There is no reason any young person in school should accept this, either.
Frankly, I don't know why the police isn't called in more frequently to schools. My experience is that bullying is more psychological than physical, but it can get physical. This should stop, it must stop, it will stop!
Not all schools turn a blind eye to violence/bullying. Some have given up, others have not. All I can do is to act locally, get involved in my local school.
Part of what this is about is dominance, pure and simple. The dominant will act to preserve their position against any threat. Students who ignore the power of the dominant are as much a threat, perhaps more, than those who defy them. Also, those who are at the bottom make easy targets, since there is little chance that others will stand up for them, or that they will be able to resist effectively.
Therefore, the geeks need to understand that they are involved in a power struggle and either leave or find courage to make a stand somehow. I wonder what Ghandi would have done in an American HS?
Accepting the notion that one is inferior is the deepest hurt of all. Do not accept it!
"I see great things in baseball" - Walt Whitman
Every guy I know that I graduated with hasn't amounted to shit. I was picked on alot until the 11th grad or so. I wanted to hurt most of those people until I finally got out and realized that my brains were worth something. Most of those people will never accomplish what I have accomplished in the past two years since graduating.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
Yes, I read them. I don't agree with several of them, but the overall message shows more support for the kids instead of the witch hunting that this can explode into. Over half of the messages on that MSNBC post carried themes essentially saying "Look at the kids, the parents, the people. Video games, violent movies, the internet, etc. etc. etc. is not to blame here" That is what people need to realize. I played D&D as a kid. I played doom out the ass. I am a smart and productive person now(not because of the games, I'm not saying that), more so than the dumbass jocks that reigned in my school when I was there. That's what I want people to see...
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
Yeah, but isn't that what the press is supposed to do? Look at this website as part of the press(excuse me Slashdot if I am interpreting this wrong). They are exposing this side of humanity that is beginning to unfold. Do the newspapers disclose a scandal then tell us what to do about it? No, we as citizens take charge and put forth the solution(senators, congressman and the like carry this out for us). Many good suggestions and solutions have come forth from these two days of postings. The rest of the press out there is getting interested, and we are close to finding the answer. We have a lot to thank slashdot for here... Just like it says..."News for Nerds. Stuff That Matters" I hope this matters for most of us.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
There are parental voices speaking the same words. MSNBC has some letters posted on their site The politicians and lawmakers are headed in the wrong direction. Speak up! go to www.senatevote.com and send your opinion to your senator on how this should be handled.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
For an outsider looking in,
Some countries around the around world have pretty insane policies. But the US policy
concerning firearms takes the biscuit.
I don't know, but I could make the point that this
has happened several times already in the states.
And hasn't happened in any other 1st world country on anywhere near the same scale.
What the hell is going on, what are you guys doing to your children ?
In france individulism is a well respected trait, in germany it is admired, in the netherlands it is ignored, in britain it isn't liked but it is accepted, in Ireland its laughed at but repected.
You guys needs to go back to basics, the first and
all important basic being Respect one another.
Regards Redemption
We don't live in cyberspace where everyone can hide and pause their evolution. (best place for self-analysis is cyberspace.)
There's no elevator (or hand of God to carry you) that takes you to a job for a certain attitude (only when you're useful). There's no ladder that you can just climb and hope to keep your spot when you've earned it. All we have is a road that goes east or west. The wind can blow you either way and when it doesn't blow you're still in danger. There's no end to the road in either direction. You can go too far either way without anything to stop you from becoming a Unabomber, a Dr. Mengala, a National clown like Hitler (recent discoveries of letters between successful upright citizens running a private witch hunt on non-Aryans suggest Hitler was insignificant beyond military strategy which he drew from that genius asshole Rommel anyway and Gerbel (sp?) was just the MC), or a catatonic paranoid hypochondriac.
No one is molded or stable except to the extent their education and behavioral development hinders or allows them to be so.
Where you end up depends not only on your efforts to get somewhere but also on your efforts to avoid arriving in other places. (You wanna climb the ladder but you do not want to tip it.)
Cyberspace has few rules. True impartiality might be possible. It might just be possible to just think of people as different. Real Life has many rules related to social structure and such. People are not just different. They aren't just squares on a quilt each one unique. To have that would require being able to pull a person out of thin air designed according to precise specs. You can't do that. There's little chance that you can find stability and humanity in all claases of personalities.
That said I do agree with putting some effort in not being ignorant. The people I dealt with growing up taught me (by no intent of their own) no one deserves unearned respect, only common courtesy. You can't carry the whole world on your back and please or appease them all, nor can you be completely impartial. In the former case you'll go insane. Some people are impossible and they don't even know or care. Remember there's no rope or tether that holds people from doing stupid things. Life is short. Choose your battles by your conscience and move on.
In the latter case, people who do want to be understood do not want to be patronized. You're not going to reach them with unconditional acceptance. If you only give them a calm smile they either don't trust you or if there's any effect it doesn't disarm them. It only makes them temporarily dormant without actually having any impact.
But then maybe I'm the crazy one.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
I watched the news coverage of the Littleton Massacre with dawning horror.
There was a feeling deep in the pit of my stomach that what was going on was more
than just wrong for the kids of Littleton. I dread that this is going to make life so
much harder for kids like them.
When I was in high school I was an outcast by choice. I hung with the popular
crowed for my entire freshman year. But I felt so fake around them. I wasn't
myself. I did not enjoy the same things they did. I was not concerned with clothes
or parties or dances. I wanted to play with my computer and read my fiction
books. By that point I had read my entire grade school library and was well on my
way to devouring the paltry sci-fi/fantasy section of my High School library.
I met my real friend my sophomore year. We got to gather through a club on
campus called the Fiction Federation. Most of us are still friends (I graduated in
89). We were not popular then. Though we were a registered club, we had to fight
to get into the year book. We had to fight for a room to have meetings in and for a
teacher willing to be a mentor. But we were lucky we found each other. And
because we found each other we became a type of gang. We looked after each
others emotional needs. We understood each other even if our parents and peers
did not.
I am terrified that since the Littleton mess that there will be no more Fiction
Federations. That no one will be willing to help the geeks. And more than that, I am
afraid that the geeks themselves will be too afraid to reach out. It is hard enough in
high school to reach out to another person. Harder still if you are shy and different
and your interests are nothing like those of the people around you. But now these
people are going to be alienated even further, if not by their peers but by their own
feelings.
Where as before they might have brought a fiction book in a shy attempt to attract
the attention of someone like them (my best friend and I got together like this), now
they will be too terrified to even do that. It breaks my heart to think of how many of
these people will succumb to feelings of worthlessness. How many of them will
suffer silently in the darkness of their lonely lives. I fear that while before, loneliness
will drive them to make contact, now it will drive them to an more permanent
solution to their torment.
And it will not be just the geeks who suffer. The artists, the poets... any one who
does not fit in. High school was a prison for so many of us. Now it will be a
concentration camp. Saddest of all is that the same people who could be helping the
outcasts will be adding to the hysteria. Administrators, teachers, counselors...
instead of instilling a sense of trust in these kids will now be watching them with
suspicion. Alienating them further.
And how many of us had parents we could turn to? I certainly didn't. Neither did
any of my friends. If we had net met each other, it might have been one of us with
the guns and the bombs. Certainly I have seen that much rage in some of my peers.
And back then I was the only one with a computer and a modem (BBS days).
I pray for their sakes that these kids can find an outlet. That they find a support
group on line if they cannot find one locally. Find people like them. People who will
support them and their creative efforts... or programing efforts. We need to provide
access to the internet in every school library. In ever library period. Not everybody
has a computer. But everyone needs an outlet. I think that a lot of doors have been
closed for kids like these. Time we opened some up.
That's my two cents.
-Kit
The reaction by school admins is mindless. If
some other Goth dressing person was contemplating
murder, would banning certain types of clothing
make that person less or MORE likely to snap?
Make no mistake, having a better job or more money or whatever is very nice. If nothing else, it's the way they keep score, so in their eyes they don't measure up to you. But the reason I think with such fondness about the people I went to school with who have dead-end lives isn't because I have more money than they do. It's because I'm doing something I truly enjoy and getting paid for it. It's because I'll be retired and playing with my grandchildren while they're out there working harder than I ever did at something they hate. It's because I turned into a decent human being in spite of them.
It's because I survived. They dished it out and it didn't break me.
Caw caw
i think thats an excellent idea. it would be a good way for these stories to reach the people who actually did these horrible things to the less popular and hopefully help them to teach their kids how to treat their fellow human beings...
"The world only exists in your eyes. You can make it as big or as small as you want." - F Scott Fitzgerald
This is not redundancy. This is Slashdot at its finest. The flood of emails from troubled kids being passed on will be noticed and a saner, truer story will eventually be told by the media. You don't go home after 5 people have signed your petition because the rest will be redundant, do you?
I understand where you are coming from, and it's completely justified. This is a highly....... sensitive topic. The intentions of all these posts are to finally bring to full light the true nature of school life for many people. The problem is we are linking it to a terrible event. With what occured in Colorado, everyone's focus is on the deaths of the 15? students/teachers. With death comes the feelings of mourning, but aslo anger, hate, and rage directed at the ones responsible, and, unfortunately, the ones associated with them too.
Now you said, "lets not use them as martyr to boost our cause. By doing this we're no better than the ones we're accusing of rejecting us."
Why exactly do you feel that way? The way I see it, as much as they failed the system, the system failed them just as much. Out of all the stories we have heard, the posts that have been written, we all have come to the conclusion that these kids were not just geeks, outcasts, or whatever you want to call them. We all see that there was something else deeply wrong within them, and that they had some serious issues. Now, the question is, why didn't any of the parents, teachers, or counselers see any of the serious warning signs?
There could be many answers to this, and your guess is as good as mine. Here is my view. They were all labeled as goths, loners, and all the pretty words that means they were different from the mainstream. One set idea that has been stated many times in these posts, is that those groups of people are 90% of the time misunderstood. People don't know anything about them (and don't want to), so anything and everything they do is just thrown into the class that people have labeled them as.
Now I know im explaining this horriby, and I'm trying my best to get my point across straight. What I'm trying to say, is these people need to put their prejudices aside, and get to know these "different" kids, so that everyone can tell the difference between a gothic trend, and the signs of a seriously disturbed mind.
These Colorado kids are a perfect example that the people in charge (and nearly everybody for that matter), just cannot tell this difference. The sooner people become knowledgable, the fewer of these cases we will see of schools overreacting to the actions of the "out" crowd. And, like the dominoe effect, when they start to learn about this "out" crowd, hopefully they will see exactly how bad it has gotten for them.
-Sarkis-
"Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors."
After reading the posts for the last two days by Katz and others I was shocked by some of the stories that were posted. Growing up in the Caribbean [Trinidad] things were bad but never this bad, I knew that Geeks were treated badly in American High Schools but the kind of terror that some of the posters experienced would be more that anyone can hope to bear. I guess I consider myself extremely lucky for not being persecuted like this. To all the other Geeks out there just hang in there things will get better.
Funny, I thought that social engineering is exactly what both school and the media are about, and both of them are very effective at what they do. You seem to have just focused purely on restrictive and punitive measures. It is possible to engineer creative and supportive solutions that do actually help people, and it is possible to engineer society by having better PR than anyone else.
To truly understand recursion, you must first truly understand recursion.
What can we, as a community, do about it?
To truly understand recursion, you must first truly understand recursion.
About half a year ago, there was a story in Russian News about nice, intelligent boy serving in Navy on nuclear submarine somewhere in Norilsk (or even more close to North Poll), methodically shooting 4 of his fellow soldiers.
After couple of hours of attempts to negotiate with officials, he shot himself.
The media had interviews with the Navy officials, young (22?) man's mother and family friends and they all talked about how nice and educated he was and how he did not have any psychological problems. (and navy even pulled his psychological tests results for that too).
Nothing was said or checked about those killed, except that they were 'good guys'. No profiles, no questions about previous violent behaviour, nothing.
It was obvious to me that we had another case of a good guy being pushed to his limits by ****heads. In this case, however, he had no escape, but an obvious way to settle the score.
In Russia, it does not happen as often as in US due to the higher respect for knowledge, at least AFAIK. But it happens nevertheless. My period of being abused lasted until the last 2 years at high school.
(do forgive me if I ramble, I've got lots to say)
I too have had to deal with my share or crap in school (I am in 8th grade at a private catholic school). Obviously, these things do not happen just in public schools. Private schools do have the power to simply get rid of problem students, but I can think of half a dozen students that the school would be wise to expell right now. It seems that a major problem is that either don't care enough or are afraid of the parents.
Sometimes when I have to deal with people who give me a hard time, I have seriously desired to see them gone. But I could never bring myself to actually kill someone, regardless of the hours I have spent playing Wolf3d/Doom/Quake/Duke3d.
I can definetly see what drives people to lash out - I have experienced it and wish that I did not have to. It really sucks to enjoy different things than everyone else. Why must people be punished for wanting to use their minds, instead of just watching TV?
But what is WAY worse than dealing with crap at school is having to deal with it at home. My two younger sisters, who seem to have fallen in with some sort of 'in' crowd, can't seem to give me enough hell. The least of it is being ridiculed for listening to 'gay' music that's not played solely on keyboards (Pink Floyd, CCR, The Doors, etc.), as opposed to that "Top 40" junk they listen to. And then there's the accusation that I have no friends (can I help it if everyone at school has no brain?) Dealing with this at home feels ten times worse than when it happens at school. There's just no escape. Especially when your parents just don't seem to care/notice.
Until recently, I had high hopes for high school (got a half scholarship into another private school), but now I am not so sure. I thought that maybe things would be different when I was going to school with more "mature" people, but from what I've seen here, that's a only dream.
I wish there was something I could do.
Great poem.
Too bad it will never be part of any class, because if all those stupid teachers who certainly do their part in contributing to this problem.
>They are the key
>To making this nation what it claims to be:
>The land of the free.
I wonder if the national hipocracy will ever end?
Every school I've been in I've learned maybe half of what I could. Besides, the culture is in almost any school in the country - public or private. I'll bet that most of us have the time to homeschool our kids. I'm a freshman now, homeschooled 2nd - 5th, and if i get decent grades this quarter, I'm going to teach myself for the rest of high school.
We computer geeks all probably have the time. It's not that hard, do a little reading and you'll do a way better job than the screwed up system. LET'S JUST DITCH THE SYSTEM!
Okie. I am an Indian. From India. I'd say all you geeks have a haven there. Geeks are a much respected species there. They're a bit short of girlfriends there, but I don't think that's a big problem, eh? I am currently pursuing undergraduate studies in Singapore. The situation is not so bad here either, I think. I do not get the picture and cannot understand the intense hatred against geeks the posts here show. Let's say you are a bright student, actually like the 'hard' subjects, do stuff with electronics and/or computers, can be seen at lunch with a book that does not deal with the movies etc., and probably look at the fat textbooks of your seniors with lust. (An incomplete and biased description, I know; geeks don't all root for texts.) In my place teachers would beam at you, and fellow students shake heads in respectful disbelief. Why not? You win awards at science fairs, write cooler code than the teacher, know most of the answers... So do *you* find that hard to believe?
I have to agree with this. I've developed a keen interest in this dicussion because of what I went through.
From grd. 6 - 11 was a really bad period. Sure, social awkwardness played a large part, but it is an avalanche situation. How do you develop social skills when you are the outcast? By developing a few good friendships and trying to keep my head held high I made it through.
I think a big problem can start in the early years. When parents tell you to "Just ignore the bullies, they'll stop", it can start you on the wrong road. I think it just makes it easier for people to pick on you and you don't develop any social defenses. I always walked away from a fight, with taunts and jeers following close behind, but the situation cascaded. When you walk away once, it's much easier the second time. Of course I thought about fighting back, but I tried to keep the moral high ground since at that age your parents are (pretty much) always right.
There is a certain silver lining in this. I think from being in that situation I developed a sense of pathos/sympathy for others which I think tempers how I handle situations. Having been in that situation I find it hard to treat people in a negative way. It would probably make me a bad manager, since I'd find it really hard to fire anyone!
Things have gotten a lot better, but the memories will always remain. Hopefully people will wise up to what's going on in schools. Reducing it at an early age would be a lot easier, but I think no matter how much we try it will always be a problem. BTW, when are schools going to realize that academics CAN be more important than sports? I'm physically active, and I don't see how schools justify cutting classes (in these days of budget cuts) but keeping sports teams open citing benefits like leadership and teamwork. Those can be learned outside of school, but the academics are very hard to learn by yourself. Just my $0.02.
This dialog has moved far, far beyond the issue of a couple of nutcases in Littleton. We're talking about an educational system which needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Totally eliminating public schools isn't the answer, but I'm looking at the local charter schools (and the extreme hostility towards such schools shown by several of the local school boards, even in the face of outright court orders that they obey with the law!) and wondering if maybe it's time to abolish all school boards and replace them with a cluster of charter schools. Some of the charter schools will emphasize academics and moral development over sports (like this should even be a matter of debate!) and the geeks could simply flock together in a supportive environment.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
In many of these cases the teacher asked the students to tell their honest emotions as part of the healing process (which is legitimate), then turned around and punished students for speaking an unpopular truth!
What do the students learn from this? To hide what they really feel. To distrust everyone in authority. To solve problems themselves, instead of counting on the system.
Are these lessons that we really want to teach our children?
As far as I'm concerned, any teacher (or principal) who stigmatizes a student for being honest about his concerns (and who isn't a direct and immediate threat to others) should be fired on the spot. The little bit of discomfort other students might feel in this situation is an imperceptible fraction of the discomfort of a society where nobody trusts the government. Just look at the ongoing rumors about a coverup of the Kennedy assassination, the claims that the CIA financed illegal foreign operations by smuggling cocaine into US cities... even the claims that the US is holding alien hostages at Area 51!
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
We can significantly change public schools without abandoning them. In the aftermath of Littleton and the illegal footdragging of some local school districts in supporting charter schools, I think it's time to seriously consider abolishing the school boards and "professional" school administrators outright!
The students will still have to take standardized tests, of course, but I can think of nothing that will stop this nonsense faster than empowering parents to tell principals that since they refuse to deal with the fact that their child is shoved into a locker every day they'll take their kids to another school... and the associated state funding. Contrawise principals that ensure *every* kid feels safe will have waiting lists.
Face it; as things stand today we're a democracy everywhere *except* in selecting our public schools.
(I know that school boards are elected... but have you ever seen a bad board thrown out? I saw it happen once, after a popular HS principal was kicked out by the board and she ran for office. She won... and the "professional" administrators have whined nonstop ever since. It makes you wonder where the power really lies...)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Just a reminder, schools can ban items of clothing if they pose a legitimate safety concern. Trenchcoats can conceal long guns, so the school districts can make a reasonable claim that such bans are based solely on safety.
(You might argue, legitimately, that handguns can still be concealed in acceptable clothing. That's correct, but a sawed off shotgun is much more lethal than most handguns, especially any easily concealed one. Besides, some school districts now require transparent plastic or mesh backpacks for precisely this reason.)
Fighting a ban on trenchcoats will be difficult unless the policy is obviously not uniformly enforced. There's no legitimate basis for banning dark clothes, eye liner, camo, combat boots, or the like.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
There are no SOLUTIONS to this problem. If there's a single thing that everyone needs to figure out, this is it.
JUST FACE IT: SOCIETY CAN'T BE SUCCESSFULLY ENGINEERED!
That's what people are trying to do, and that's what's caused half of the problems. When you try to ban things, you're trying to engineer society. It ALWAYS fails.
When you make school mandatory, you're engineering society. The same goes for drinking ages, gun control, DOOM control, censorship, curfews, school uniforms, speed limits, encryption controls, welfare, and a hundred other things.
And every time one of these 'solutions' is implemented, life is a little less worth living. This is doubly true for good, responsible people.
And when you push people, and push them and push them a push them some more, someday they'll be pushed too far. That won't be a happy day. The vast MAJORITY are capable of violence. You just need to create the right circumstance.
How about leaving people alone instead? Or better yet, how about personally solving the problem for yourself, or for your kid, or for a kid you know, or for a kid you haven't met yet?
When you try to help a single person, you can succeed. When you try to 'help' EVERYONE at once, you only make things worse.
It's not possible to engineer society SUCCESSFULLY. You CAN'T make things better. You WILL make things worse.
Society gets better and worse as the people get better and worse. It's not fixed by imposition of rules and codes, or through top-down measures, or by act of government.
Things can get better if a number of people decide to help INDIVIDUALLY. Over the course of many, many years, these individual acts begin to add up, and a whole society can change.
The end of slavery is an excellent example. It took CENTURIES of work by committed individuals to lead up to the founding of the US, the Declaration of Independence, and finally the civil war that ended slavery.
This is not social engineering. Social engineers would make a law or enact a policy that would 'fix the problem' over the course of a 5 year plan. And when the plan fails (they ALWAYS do) it's time for another plan.
Here's the real question: If social engineering is like gardening, which people are the weeds and which are the crop? And who gets to be the gardener?
It sounds like a lot of code words for dictatorship to me.
---
How about coming up with a few examples of social engineering projects that worked?
And when I say 'worked', I mean worked for everyone. No freedoms lost, no property seized, no taxes stolen, no fatalities or injustices. That's the standard for success.
Anyone can make things better for someone at the expense of someone else. Kill Jack, steal his money, give it to Jill. See how we've helped Jill? Do it a million times, and we can have a Great Society.
And I went to public school, so I don't know what 'Settlement Houses' are/were. Perhaps the public education project failed, or perhaps the 'Settlement Houses' didn't work that well. I don't know.
See my posts above (Solutions - There are none). No 'policy' will work. You can't solve the problem all at once. You can only make things worse.
Look at the letters above. Any 'outcasts' being terrorized with GUNS?
Nope. So how about not changing the subject? How about not using tragic deaths to advance your own shallow political aims?
Besides, we're keeping the guns. Period. Anyone who wants to end gun ownership in the US will first have to kill me and a lot of other people. Hope you're up to it.
Speaking from an English viewpoint...
I have little knowledge of American schools, so I don't know whether
what's been described here on slashdot is the norm, or is restricted to
certain schools. I know for sure though that I was definitely not
'one of the crowd' at school (I went to a grammar school - age 11-18 -
not sure how that equates to the American high school, but I guess it's
similar age range, and 'grammar' school just means we all passed an
exam at the age of 11, so it's the brighter end of the spectrum, which sort
of makes me really worry about those who failed that exam, but that's
another story).
After the first few years of doing badly at sports, we learnt to sneak off
to do roleplaying or computing (sport was officially compulsory). There
were a few problems with the 'popular' sport obsessed idiots, but for the
most part we had nothing to do with them, and they had nothing to do
with us. Quite tame really. I'm aware of some schools were things could
be bad, but for the most part, for the geeks/nerds I knew, it wasn't that
bad. School was actually quite fun.
We definitely never had problems with any Scotsmen[1].
So, from my experience (and that's an important point), I'd say the
problems that have been described here, seem to be much worse in
America, than they are in the UK, though I'm pretty sure there's some
bad schools in the UK.
[1] Jock = someone from Scotland. It took me a while to figure out
what you yanks mean by the term, but I think I have it worked out now!
I'm a number, not a free man!
The basis to all respect is love, the basis of all love and respect for other people is to love and respect ourselves first.
Society puts so much pressure on *ALL* of us no matter what kind of lifestyle we choose to lead, making it very difficult both love and respect ourselves. We are constantly reminded about the mistakes we make, never allowed to forget them or move on, reminded of how we dont fit into societal norms and taunted and forced to change into something more popular in the societal view. This kind of pressure *is* a method of social control as someone else so rightly pointed out. It opresses us into mindless beings who are here to serve the purpose of accumulating money for corrupt governments.
How can we possibly expect to have love, respect and understanding if we are not allowed or help and even positively prevented from loving respecting and understanding ourselves.
The only person that can see my world is me, because I am the only one that sees through my eyes, feels my feelings and percieves with my thoughs. Until I understand the way I think feel and see, until I am able to fully understand my world and relate it to that of others I am always going to have problems.
I feel for the people of littleton, I feel for everyone that has posted to this thread and others and I have been moved beyond words at what I have read. I myself am only now beginning to realise just how much my school years effected me and how even now I find myself reacting to events that happen in my life currently in ways which have been conditioned in my past... REacting in ways which are very much protective and self preserving instead of ACTing the way I want to act and being the person I want to be as a free being who has choices in the way he lives.
I'm not sure how much sense this has made all I can say is that if we lived in a world where we were allowed to love and respect ourselves then love and respect for others would come automatically.
I cannot blame anyone for what has happened, (flame me if you like, if you do email me don't make the thread suffer), but I firmly believe that this will continue happening until we change the emphasis on our lives. Until society as a whole is based on love and not on blame then we are in for a rollercoater ride of a future.
Merry part,
Ben
You aren't daydreaming...that's where I'm going next year. I'm a sophomore in a public high school, and next year I'm going away to a program at the University of North Texas called TAMS (Texas Academy of Mathematics and Science). It's an early college program where you complete HS and the 1st 2 years of college concurrently.
Every year, 200 new students are accepted, for a total of 400 in the dorm (yes, its residential). It's a pretty selective program, as they select the 200 from about 600 applicants who are among the best students in the state. Just imagine, instead of maybe five people who you can really identify with at your high school (thats about it for me anyways...), you live in a dorm 24/7 with 400 of them.
The best part is that the Texas Legislature foots the tuition bill, so all you have to pay is about $3500 for room and board, although you can even get scholarships for that.
And yes, there will be a 100-base-T in every room.
If you want to know more about the program, they have a small website at http://www.tams.unt.edu/
I'm now 27, working for a CLEC in the network department. I make great money and love my work. I'm getting married soon to a non-geek who loves me anyway (whee!). While my life could certainly have been easier, I feel that all my experiences have helped me become a better person.
Coming into high school I had two suicide attempts under my belt and a whole lot of rage. From my memories of High School, it was a pretty terrible place, which only had two redeeming qualities.
1) A gifted education program
2) An incredible humanities course (studying mythology, religions, relaxation, music, etc.)
I was able to get a few friends and be excited about learning through the Gifted program. Two years after I graduated, the Gifted program was dropped and all funding and teachers for this program was re-distributed to Special Ed (learning diabilities and the like).
I was (around my sophomore/junior years) able to stay on somewhat of an even keel through some of the ideas I picked up in humanities class. My favorite memory of the course is sitting in the planetarium with a nice starshow going and listening to the Moody Blues "In Search of the Lost Chord". Getting into the idea of something bigger really helped me be comfortable turning inward for strength. I believe these classes were recently canceled for having no "scholastic content". School systems are going downhill all around us.
Now I feel very strong in my sense of self, and have had success professionally. I see some of those popular people sometimes when I go visit relatives...working in a factory, working in the 7-11, managing the pizza shop, struggling to get by. Not that these are unneccesary jobs, but I know they are not satisfying in the long run to most people. I know that what I do effects millions of people, and I'm working on systems that are moving the world in the "wired" direction.
I still long for more education, not for the school, but for the knowledge. Socially, I still am not in with the in crowd, but I don't particularly care most of the time.
Geeks - stay alive. Stay strong inside. Get online and find others. Get some facetime. Know that you can succeed.
Going to highschool was hell for me, I was a geek, but you know it all paid off when I heard Johnny football hero was a drunk who was living out of a Pick-up truck, Captin of the wrestlting team dilvered my pizza the other night, ane one of the bitch cheerleaders was in the paper for shoplifting from K-mart. Ahh life sure is good now
In the past few days I've been trying to figure out what got me through high school. It was the teachers. If every troubled student could find one teacher to respect them, to listen to them, to say "hi" to them each day, I think we'd lose fewer students.
The premise is that if you have someone who respects you, you're going to begin respecting yourself. And if you respect both yourself and your teacher, you develop a sense of responsibility, and you're not as willing to use your life as a bargaining chip--you value yourself, and you don't want to let the people who value you down.
This doesn't take the responsibility off parents, because parents are still *the* crucial element, but--let's face it--the hallmark of the teenage years is conflict with parents. Sometimes you need the attention of someone who isn't as intimately involved as parents are, and the people in the best position are generally teachers.
I would never go back to visit my high school classmates, but four years after leaving my high school I still visit the teachers who meant the most to me. They talked to me every day, challenged me when I needed it, and, when I was really in trouble, 4 separate people called my parents. And even though that was embarrassing, it means a lot to someone as lonely as I was to be noticed by the people who I respected.
That's what got me through, and I hope that students in trouble can seek out a teacher that they respect--most of the good teachers will do almost anything for their students. I know those teachers are out there, and they're not only in private schools. My entire experience was in public schools.
Isn't life exciting? The 'human condition' as we know it shows no bounds. Every entity classifiable as homo sapiens exhibit such an amazingly array of possibilities, only Funniest Home Video and the nightly news can even try to show so many variations on the theme.
As one such variation having been 'persecuted' during his HS years in the early 80's, I can say that time hasn't changed anything but the scale of things. Killing anywhere, by anyone, is punishable in accordance with local/regional law. A fact that hasn't changed in a while. I grew up with guns, how to shoot various rifles and handguns, hunters safety courses, Boy Scouts, and later did 4 years in the military under some very heavy-duty situations. I've never taken the live of a fellow human or other being with the exception of a couple of road kills, bugs, mice, etc.
I punched one 'bully' for tresspassing into my basement in the 5th or 6th grade. Then I switched schools at grade 7-11 and again for my senior year, and didn't hit or get hit, but got close. Once I had access to the computer room (there's a reason it wasn't plural) I ate lunch there and avoided the lunch room. Not that it was unplesant, but because it was very convenient. One 'jock' in particular comes into mind. I believe the problems ended when I struck him out in a softball game in gym class (I wasn't particularly athletic, but the archery was cool). But I could be blocking out repressed memories.
Gym class seemed to be focal point of much teen angst.
(I was a geek in school, got picked on for it, knew how to use a gun, but didn't. But those were simpler times...I mean...Apple ]['s before they had the 'basics' disk to deal with the change in FDD sectors...but I digress)
So, some students don't seem to appreciate their HS years like Al Bundy is portrayed to have had. Thousands (seem) to have attested to the fact that they didn't enjoy HS because they were picked on for one reason or another. Ignored would have been ok. It's the confrontation that destroys the self-esteem, even if idle threats.
Right, then.
This most recent, publicized example of school violence hits close to home. About 10 miles or so. The press' first mention of 'outcast' brought the memories back. While I'm saddened at the loss of life, and feel for the families and friends involved (and not), we are shown another example of "Yes, things like THIS can and do happen." To be shocked at out race's current lack of morals/values/evolution up to now is...human.
No magic pill comes with this reality check. The short-sighted, knee-jerk responses (taking away computers, games, internet sites getting pulled, banning black dress and trenchcoats) may have more of an effect on people than the actual deed.
But there's talk here about non-violent protests, especially to the American primary education system. I read examples of 'custom tailored' schooling being used in other countries, and start drooling. I doubt anything like this will ever happen anytime reasonable here in the good ole US of A. So I had this thought, and it's both non-violent and the spirit of 'custom tailored.'
But I could get a visit by law enforcement agencies if I were to corrupt the minds of our young. Oh well...consider this a fictional situation:
The thought went that a considerable drop-off in the average student score would get someone's notice, especially if grades are tied to funding in any way. Specialize in a class or 2, and slack-off the rest. Just sit there. Those few gems of knowledge they pass along will probably sink in if it's not old news already, just by sitting there.
How about those SAT's? Guess the first time and retake it when you leave the school, or take it privately so it isn't associated with the school.
A+'s are great (as long as they're not certification programs) in classes that are worth the effort. Show the system that people should have choices. Follow minimum guidelines. The rest of life is yours.
But I could be wrong...Individual results WILL vary, but there's a learning experience enclosed in every box.
Who do I think I am anyway?
Plus ca change, plus c'est les memes choses.
I'm from Holland. and although high school by no means was paradise to me, what helps is that we have a progressive school system. That is, there are different levels of high school; there are low-level technical and agricultural ones, medium-level for various non-academic jobs and high-level ones for access to university. Kids get into these schools based on school results at the age of 12, but can switch or stack schools if they want and are able to.
:)
The result? As you progress, you more and more enter a world of similar geeks. Although there are still jocks, they're about as smart as you are, so there's no reason for hostility. For me, it meant that while my glasses were broken about once a month in kindergarden, the rate went considerably down over the years (to once a year in high school, mostly due to sporting accidents
Although this might strike people used to a one-school system as strange, it actually has a lot of advantages, of which the educational ones are the most obvious. Is Holland alone in this approach or do other countries have similar systems?
"You're one of those condescending UNIX computer users!" - "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer." (Di
The "Jeffersonian dream"? Stalinesque, maybe, but Jefferson would be tossing his cookies if he got a look at "modern" education.
Jefferson knew that education was indispensable to the health of the republic, true. But that does not mean that public education is the way to do it, and some people simply ignore that little fact as inconvenient. Or do you pretend that public education existed in his day? Spare us.
Sensible people...parents or not...will abandon something that doesn't work in favor of something that does. This is why you're seeing more home schooling, more charter and private schooling. If you want to fix the problem, fix it. And then maybe the parents will come back, once you can demonstrate it's okay. But quit expecting us to buy a broken product, and quit complaining when we choose to buy one that isn't broken.
Stormhound DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs since 1995
The question that I would like answered is what are we going to do as a group, as a "geek/nerd" society? Our very culture and way of life is being attacked. Sure highschool is hell and I can't wait to get out. But what about until then? How can we stand back and watch our fellow nerds be singled out for anti-social behaviour or for a love of games, be they role-playing or video? I think it's wrong that the school system is trying to force individuals to fit into the cookie cutter. Be the American dream! Who's dream is it anyway? When it is said on a televised funeral that the "athletes" of a school are the ones to be proud of because they spend their free time on the court or on the field, I think it is time that we look and see that there is something seriously wrong.
...dA
I think the point being made (and I speak from experience) is that it can be _very_ difficult to recover from the damage done during middle and high school. I've been out of high school for nearly nine years and I'm still working on it.
I was fine up until sixth grade, which I entered directly from fourth grade. Before that I wasn't the "in" crowd but I also wasn't really bothered by anyone. From sixth grade on though things got continually worse, up until my senior year in high school which wasn't as bad because a lot of my "enemies" had graduated. But the damage of all those years of teasing, taunting, occasional violence (nothing major, fortunately) and other harassement took its toll. Hell the damage continued to grow after high school, even after the causes had gone away. I finally ended up in a state where I just didn't _care_ about much of anything...being emotionally dead was just easier than the pain. Although I'm pulling myself out of that state it does still come back now and then (reading all these stories has brought it back, for example.)
>> The fact is, if a teacher or two had concealed
>> carry permits and had a gun they could have
>> fought back.
>> They could probably have taken out the shooters
>> before they killed all those people.
>
> That is NOT fact. That is speculation.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Israelis
have proven that it is fact. They used to have
quite a problem with Palestinian terrorists
shooting up schools until they adopted a policy
of having the teachers arm themselves.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Nobody is interested in your skill at the Kevin Bacon game of tying the subject under discussion to your personal hobbyhorse in six steps or less.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
While an Atlas-Shrugged scenario is silly for the same reason conspiracy theories generally are silly, the same result can occur through spontaneous consensus.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
And how do people get to be this sort of sad joke?
Might it be that one of the real-world lessons they absorbed in school was "if you're popular enough, you can get away with anything"?
(I've found this a useful way to frame the issue when facing a conservative audience. It neatly taps into their frustration with That Man In The White House[tm] without vulgar pandering.)
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
So, the lawlessness in your school system goes beyond the usual blind eye toward thuggery in the student body. The school board itself is outlaw, treating the taxpayers' property like its own private fiefdom.
And there's still debate as to whether this system needs to be torn down and rebuilt??
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
From my experiences in High School and a little time in College, it seems that there are three kinds of jocks:
;)
1) Druggie jocks. The ones who don't mind getting stoned every now and again. These jocks are relatively harmless and are laid back and are easy to talk to, relatively speaking.
2) Drunkard jocks. These are the violent ones who are the assholes of them all. They can be OK at times, but usually they're the ones that cause trouble, thinking that they own the world.
3) "Normal" or "Geeky" jocks. The rarity, I've seen jocks involved in D&D or CompSci, which can be odd, especially when you talk to them and find out they're missing practice to write a program. How DIFFERENT.
I don't react violently, I had my bad days in middle and high school. Sometimes I'd come home and wring my pillow like it was someone's neck. I can feel the rage consuming me, and it's like the rage controls ME, instead of ME controlling the rage. So I gave up physical prospects of revenge, and stick to mental/technological revenge. Nothing like making your agressor realize that he's useless, and won't get anywhere in life. And deleting that term paper helps too
"Windows has detected the following resident program is not needed: COMMAND.COM. Do you wish to unload this before loading windows? (Y/N)"
- Actual error message, God bless `em!
While I would tend to agree that there is a certain stigma in being "different", my take on my whole ostracization experience (which was the case pretty much up until my last two years of HS) is that it was more due to anti-social behaviour on my part than anything else. The anti-social, condescending attitude that I see in many of these posts is generally not very likeable, and most people just aren't going to look past it.
Passing the blame onto others ("the only reason they hate me is because I'm smarter than them..") is a wrongheaded attitude. The fact is that when I was younger, I just didn't have a good grasp of various social nuances.. which was what isolated me from most of my peers. It really had nothing to do with my interest or ability in computers/whatnot.
The fact is, you're going to have to deal with "normal people" for the rest of your life. The trick is to play their game of interpersonal communication (fit into their culture when you need to) while maintaining your own sense of identity.
---
Meat. Isn't it time you made the switch?
Sorry for the rant, it's just all this nonsense about blaming the gaming industry is making me absolutely SICK. Video games may surely be a minimal factor, but are far from the "menace" that the media is making them out to be. I have played violent video games, I've watched "faces of Death" and I am one of the least violent, most easygoing people you will ever meet. Just goes to show what an inconsistent, misinformed country we're living in...
Art (music, movies and yes even computer games are art) reflects life, not the other way around. The schools must enforce discipline. Pecking orders are natural; the ruling of the school by the social elite is not normal. Society is attacking the mirror because they don't like the reflection. That will do little to change the reality. This country has become a Hellmouth, not only the schools but also the workplace. There is too much emphasis on materialism and work and too little on peace, intellectual activities and love.
Everything has a cost; there is a cost to coming, and a cost to going, a cost to maintain and a cost to change. In God
Yes, another "me too"... but nowhere does it say it WILL get better!
Alienation and emotional cruelty started well before middle school; continued on through high school AND onward through college, which I finally dropped out of. Being told it's all because of jealousy of my higher intelligence didn't help.
For some of us, there is NO support from family, the few friends we manage to make through the years, there were NO caring and empathetic teachers, and by the time there was any chance at all of turning it around I was far too gone. 20 years later, with a lot of help I am finally trying to put myself together...
I see many of the same behavior patterns in most "adults", and the very class of people at whose hands I suffered from childhood on are occupying many of the decision-making positions in the business world where glitz, surface appearances and "oooh, how cool!" carry far more weight than demonstrable correctness. I'm an engineer and spend the vast majority of my time cleaning up the "virtual garbage" left by incompetent fools...
I'm tired of hearing "it's human nature". We CREATE human nature, each and every one of us, with every single interaction we have with each other.
It was mentioned elsewhere here to just "drop out". Ayn Rand wrote of this idea on a much larger scale in "Atlas Shrugged". Maybe it's time.
Violence isn't the answer, though; it only makes things worse...
ok, first of all, expect no quotes/single quotes. they are not getting translated properly. we shall see what other symbols do not come across properly.
... my point, you ask? intelligence shaped the right way can be a benefit to everyone. open your eyes, yes, educators; stop thinking the world revolves around sports and athletics. when the body is old and feeble, what are you left with, if you have never worked to develop your mind?
i am 30, female, a mother, and a fringe geek chick. basically, i like being around people more intelligent than i am. while good enough for work standards with a puter (and could be better if i pushed it) i am working more on developing the >>people>too busy>group
anyway
but by that same token, i made it through high school without ever hurting anyone. and i made it through a home life that was actually more traumatic than high school was, and i made it out alive. yes, geeks, nerds, what-have-you -- you are the upper class when it comes to brains and intelligence.
i do not say this to say that it gets easier, or that one should sit idly by and allow oneself or a friend to be abused. but look at what MADD has done in this country about drunk driving in the last 20 years, alone. if you cry, do not keep it inside. find an outlet, raise your voice, be heard, speak up, ask for help and ask and ask again, until you are heard.
but keep your fist to your side, unless to defend yourself from physical harm. let us speak to those parents who are too busy to make time for their children, let us teach them. let us speak to the educators, to the media; let us open eyes and minds to what is truly a horrendous situation. yes, yes, i am preaching to the choir. but if this goes beyond slashdot.org, then perhaps some parents will begin to twinge with guilt, and some educators to sit back and say, well now. maybe i SHOULD open my eyes.
because -- take my word for it people -- this is not the end of it. it begins one person at a time, but things have a way of growing. let us see if we cannot influence the right things to begin growing, rather than a public outpouring of hatred. this is the easiest thing to do, to hate a group or class for what one or two of its fellows did. but i think we should push for something with a little more weight behind it; something like personal responsibility, and parental responsibility.
and open-mindedness would not be so bad, either!
I was watching 20/20 the other day, and I swear, I was laughing my self silly. I know, I know, the massacre is not something funny. But I swear, they were going through blaming so many different things
- television
- goths
- Doom and Quake
- the Internet
To name a few of the people affected. The point is, the number of people who use, or who are the above, versus the cause of violence you'll find is VERY small.
I think 20/20 should appologize to everyone who is, or uses the above.
I was in highschool between 1989 and 1993. I can think of many times, just like others have admitted here, wanting to get back at others for the crap I had to deal with. Heck even before high school, I was being taunted all the time.
In elementary school because I was interested in computers, everyone assumed that I was a super smart kid. Unfortunately that was the wrong assumption - I hated homework, and I didn't like school work. I got in a few fights, etc. Nothing too major, but I don't look back on it with rosey thougths.
In grade six I went on a trip to Ottawa (Canada's National Capital) and by the end of the trip, someone had spread a rumor that I was gay. The kid who spread the rumor was completely pretentious, and had to better himself over others.
Kind of funny to note though is, I came out as a gay man when I was in university in Ottawa.
Anyway, in high school, I had to deal with looking after my grandparents while my mother was working. My parents were divorced when I was four. So while trying to get the grades to go to university, I was looking after my grandparents.
I had to deal with stupid 'popular' kids on the bus who had no idea the life I was leading. As far as they were concerned, I was a gullible individual who had no life, was never invited to parties, who sat in front of a computer all day.
It wasn't until grade 12 and my OAC year I was told by someone, "You know, you're really cool." I was floored! I had no idea that I was cool! Someone actually liked me!!
I went to university and lived in residence for my first year. While I wasn't one of the guys getting picked on, my roommate was someone who did get picked on all the time.
What about the counsellors when I went through school? Useless. Teachers? Useless.
There was a memo leaked by some of the students while I was in high school. The teachers were having a contest to see who could score the most baseball caps from students in the school. Teachers were waiting by the entrace at hometime, and kids on the way out of school with their baseball caps on inside the school would have them taken away. How can you expect the students to respect you if you won't respect them?
What about teachers who jump to conclusions and you don't get a say? Guilty until proven innocent? HELLO!
It's not just the kids we need to look at, the parents, teachers and administration are all responsible.
What about games, and such? Give me a break! Music does not make kids bad. Video games don't make kids bad. It's the example they get from society - and in high school the examples are teachers, administration, and parents.
Schools should not be facist states, but they sure seem run that way, for no particular good reason. I often wonder if the administration even think!
I, too, went to a small school: graduating class of 21, 125 in the whole high school.
There was plenty of persecution, and plenty that I have had to repress, but it wasn't nearly as bad as what I see others have experienced. Because of the size, everyone was more on the same level, because we had classes with everyone else.
Additionally, until the last year, we didn't have any organized sports, either. Imagine that: a school primarily concerned with academics.
Okay. I've been reading a lot of people's stories and thought that it was time that I got involved.
I think we can all pretty much agree that high school was/is/will be the worst time of our lives. I know it was for me. However, unlike most of the people who have posted, I wasn't beaten up. No one spat on me. I didn't really even catch that much flak from people (in public, anyway). The shooting has caused me to rethink those years, and quite honestly, the only thing I can come up with is people not liking me, but being too scared to show it. I'm a pretty big guy, and the fact that I didn't have a lot of social skills caused me to become someone that a lot of girls feared. (More in a sec.) I wore NIN, KMFDM, Pig, etc. shirts. I spoke out in class whenever I could and tried to engage in debate (not arguments, mind you) whenever possible. I guess all of this caused people to have mixed feelings about me. On the surface, I was mostly liked, and maybe a few really did like me, but I heard so many rumors about myself through friends that I just became numb to it eventually. Most were bullshit, but some (ex. stalking rumors) were from things I did that were blown WAY out of proportion. I was numb to most of the rumors and even laughed at some of them, but these, combined with my hating my lack of social skills, caused me to beat myself up during the last couple of years of school.
The only time I was ever scrutinized by "The Man (TM)" was when a teacher was worried about some attitudes I expressed in a paper I wrote. The guidance counselor (also the football coach, by the way) was a pretty nice guy and understood that I wasn't about to go on a killing spree, so he let me go. Other than that, most teachers and administrators really liked me.
My senior year, I heard all the stories from graduates about college being so much better. I bought into it. My last few days in school were really depressing, but I got through them relatively unscathed. Overall, high school blew, but I had been active and tried to make a difference. I was now ready to move on to bigger and better things than my what my Bible Belt town offered.
When I got to college last fall, I expected my life to get infinitely better. I thought I'd have friends everywhere and would finally achieve inner happiness.
Life has gotten worse for me, to be honest. Sure, I'm actually learning in my classes, and that's the important thing. However, I think I'm feeling more pressure to conform now to whatever belief than when I was in high school. That wasn't supposed to be the case. Perhaps I'm just not active in the right areas, but I can't stand a lot of the people I work with on extracurricular stuff. Hell, maybe my standards are too high, but I don't think of myself as even having a friend here. Sure, there are some people I talk to, but I haven't been to one social event all year where I didn't want to just go home and work on a program or read or write a story or do whatever. Everything I've done this year that wasn't part of an invitation by someone I work with has been done by myself. (I don't always mind that, mind you, but it would be nice to have someone I could, say, go to the movies or record store with.)
Who's to blame for all this? Myself. As much as I try to blame the people around me, or fool myself into thinking I'm emotionally stable, I'm purposely carrying around a lot of emotional baggage from my childhood and high school years. I'm also just plain being stubborn about certain things. I'm changing certain things about myself, but like I said, I'm stubborn and these changes will take awhile to fully implement.
What's the moral of this story? College is what you make of it, just like high school. College will probably change you in many ways, but if you don't want to change or you don't change in the "right" ways, you could easily be more miserable at college than back at high school. (At least I had people back in high school that I could talk to when I was depressed that were actually there and not just Internet friends.)
Despite what I've said, I wouldn't say college has been worse than high school. It certainly hasn't been a lot better, though, and I just want people to know that going to college won't guarantee you loads of friends and whatnot. You're going to have to put some effort into it and/or get lucky.
Thanks for reading.
I go to high school now, I have one year, after this one, left, and I am ready to drop out and get my GED and go to college. Obviously, if there
are this many people(including me) not liking
their high school experience then there is obviously some problem, either with the social status of the world or with the public school system not providing help, offering help, or offering protection. Maybe even something else. Either way there is something wrong.
If you want to find out just what your rights are as a student, go to http://www.aclu.org/issues/student/hmes.html, which solely focuses on the civil liberties of students.
Several "Student Briefer" documents deliniate what rights you actually have.
Again, a couple excerpts:
FREE EXPRESSION:
PRIVACY:
DUE PROCESS/FAIR TREATMENT:
So you do have protections. Obviously, you'll have to check the rules at your school district, but if the officials mistreat you, make a stink. The more people who hear how ludicrious these policies are, the quicker they'll be dissolved. Try these on for size:
If you think you can win, challenge it.
Ask the school for a written copy of their dress code. Get every detail. If they use a vague phrase like "Gothic attire" then demand an exact definition of what exactly is forbidden clothing. Then find all the loopholes or places where rules are arbitrary, unreasonable and/or discriminatory.
Can't bar hats unless there's an exception for yamulkes (Religious Jews keep their head covered at all times). If nobody is allowed to dress in black, then what are people in mourning supposed to do? If combat boots are prohibited, then what happens to ROTC? If miniskirts are forbidden, find out how many inches that is.
Now you have three options:
Hope this information / these ideas helped. If there's a local branch of the ACLU in your neighborhood, they may have the specific rules for your neck of the wood. Otherwise, I do enjoy digging for data like this, so if you have further questions, post them as a response and I'll see what I can find out.
But this is still America, where the Constitution promises us freedom of speech, the right to peaceably assemble, and security against unreasonable search and seizures without probable cause.
Take a look at the 1969 Supreme Court case called Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Disctrict. This argument could be very helpful for people trying to challenge these prejuicial policies.
In summary:
The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the students, noting that:
To read the full text of the decision, go to http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?nav
There are some really good arguments here, and it doesn't get too bogged down in legalese. Much of it is still relevant to the recent cases wardrobe harassment. The following extracts all come from the full decision:
So, if you are still wearing Goth clothing to make a statement you may have a case here. If you do get harassed by officials, see what they make out of this. And otherwise contact your local ACLU, who may be in a position to help.
I grew up an early computer nerd (late 60's). At that time, computer nerds were an even more misunderstood species.
The best revenge is that now, many years later, I am starting to see my high school classmate's off spring. And some of them are nerds, as I was.
The revenge is made more sweet because they are my students in the Computer Science Department of a major University.
:-)
Just sign my name as Bearitone.
I'm 38.5, now, and married for over 15 years to a wonderful woman I met in college at UC Berkeley. I've learned to live with curly hair. But I'm still overweight, don't play tennis or golf or run, and would never be invited to join a country club..... my story:
A long time ago, in a city just across the bay.....
I hated my San Francisco junior high years - fortunately, I skipped 8th grade, and was only in for 2 years. And I learned quickly to exact a measure of my own when I was thrown down and beaten up -- A small jeweler's screwdriver can cause LOTS of damage and still be hidden in your shoe before the dean breaks up the fight - and I've never told anyone about that.
But I had my singing to keep me sane, and lots of science fiction and science books, and one or two very inspiring teachers. And dreams of talking to Polly Meyer or Paula Schuppel.
And by the time I got to high school anyone who started anything with me got a cold, hard stare for half a minute -- and they usually backed down. I also joined the fencing team, and we used to practice with umbrellas in the central plaza; that discouraged people too.
But it wasn't, and isn't, easy.
Frankly, I blame the parents. on both sides. Those whose sons were making bombs in the garage and those whose sons were taunting schoolmates.
I think that the one constant throughout all these events is a set of parents - or a single parent - out of touch with their children, having also abdicated their responsibility to teach the basics of courtesy to the kids.
Do I have kids? No. But I'm the oldest of five, and had the lion's share of the raising of my four siblings - INCLUDING teaching them right from wrong. And though we aren't a model family, at least we know to treat others with respect.
That is what is missing from families. the basics of respect and caring for/about others. For if the parents don't care about kids, where do kids learn to care about others?
>One of these killers drove a BMW to school, had a girlfriend that bought him some guns (sounds like a loving relationship), and went to the Prom...and had a large group a friends...
Having a nice car, a significant other and attending a social event CANNOT cancel out years of torment, humiliation and angst.
>I'm not convinced they were so oppressed... I
think too many folks on Slashdot are PROGECTING what they went through in school on to these murderers.
Maybe so. But maybe the realization of what these kids went through is the spark that started people to realize and step forward with their inner turmoil. These feelings have always been there for people. It's noly now that they are paid attention to.
~*Meg*~
>Harris and Klebold were plain evil
And what were the kids who tormented them for years on end? What were the teachers and parents who failed/chose not to see what was going on and try to help. Can you reallyput 100% of the blame on the gunmen?
~*Meg*~
>Some jock makes fun of you? Big freakin' deal. Live your own damn life and quit letting your self be nothing more than a reactionary.
For some, that is *much* easier said than done. There's a point to where you just can't ignore it any longer.
~*Meg*~
I think that the persecution of 'clothing violaters' in schools is more of an act of paranoia rather than precaution. Teachers and administration are scared and uneducated in this type of thing and it's all a matter of search and destroy. Search for 'different' or 'weird' and 'destroy.'
~*Meg*~
So, maybe the problem could be reduced by grouping students with other students of similar academic ability. Of course, this won't solve the problem. It'll probably
allow the problem to continue.
You're right. It won't work. I can tell you this from personal experience. I got placed into the gifted program at my school in second grade, and even there I was picked on. It was bizarre, because we would have these group counseling type things were everyone would talk about all the abuse that they went through at their old schools (gifted was in a seperate school), and then these same people, right afterwards, would turn around and pull my chair out from under me as I was about to sit down at lunch or something. You'd think they'd know better! Just because I was a little more shy than most of them. It made no sense. Even I joined in on the abuse on occasion--if one of the "white trash" at our high school (people who didn't bathe regularly and lived in trailers and such) was being harrassed, I'd join right in and make fun of them too. I didn't really think about it much at the time, I was just doing it because everyone else was, but later on I would wonder how I could do such a thing, since these same people pick on me too.
I wanted to say to all proto-geeks out there that you are not alone. Read the posts here, there are many of us.
Other posters have accused us of haiting all non-geeks, others have accused us of the same crimes committed against us for feeling smarter and superior than our assailants.
This is untrue. In my own case, I do not hate all non-geeks. I do hate many non-geeks, I also hate quite a few geeks. What I can hear in these posts is a universal bitterness, not hairted.
We have a right to be angry. The United States is supposed to be a free country, but it only appears to be free to those who conform.
When I was in high school, I was told that I should try to conform so that I could be accepted. I didn't want to conform, and I didn't care about fitting in. I wanted basic rights.
I wanted the right to walk down the hall without being spit on. I wanted the right to attend class without being assaulted while the teacher turned the other way. I wanted the right to participate in PE class without being deliberatly injured. I wanted to eat my lunch without having it ruined by getting it dumpped on the floor or spit in. Such were daily occurences for me. Not once were those responsible punished. On the one occasion I went to a councilor, nothing happened, and I was punished for tardiness to class.
I didn't want more rights than anyone else, I simply wanted the same rights granted to prisoners of war, or convicted felons. They have the right to eat an unspoiled meal, and not be assaulted because some testosterone poisoned jerk needs to feel big and important.
Is there anything wrong with that? Yet, most of my teachers, principals, and 'councilors' seemed to think that I should just expect such treatment as part of growing up.
The powers that be need to wake up, and find out what is really happening under their own noses. They can't blame themselves though, they can't possibly admit to being less than perfect. They choose instead to blame violecne in the media, and violent video games. In truth, the video games probably delay the violence by allowing the persecuted to work out agression without actual violence.
It is time to band together. We can change the world for the better. Geeks young and old are still in control of what has been declared the most improtant development since the printing press. We can be heard and we can prevail.
There is a civil war coming in the United States. Remember which side has most of the guns
I completely agree. I get the sense that some people in this forum are almost lionizing those kids, giving excuses for the atrocities they committed, and implying that the poor dears were actually quite justified in attempting to slaughter hundreds of people. I think that viewpoint is lazy and immoral, not to mention insane. It IS sad that they were picked on and felt left-out, but really, so what?? I was picked on, too. So were lots of other people I know. Junior high and high school were among the most miserable and painful experiences of my entire life. But I didn't turn into a violent, hate-filled, racist, Nazi-obsessed killer. Violence and hate are CHOICES. It is sad that the kids were ostracized and picked on, but they could have dealt with that situation in another way, rather than giving themselves permission to commit murder.
However, I do think it is frightening and entirely misplaced how much focus the media is putting on the killers' supposedly Goth style of dress, or the fact that they were outsiders. Again, that seems pretty irrelevant to me. Lots of popular, good-looking jocks commit violent crimes, too. The only difference, I imagine, is that the peers of popular jocks are probably less likely to snitch on them.
I wish the media would focus more on the killers' racism, threatening statements, and fascination with Naziism and weapons. To me those elements are FAR more indicative of a potentially dangerous person than being an individualistic-looking outsider or wearing black is.
I do wish everybody had a bit more tolerance for people different from them. School is a gigantic crushing conformity-machine, and it truly is hell to go through if you just don't happen to fit into any of those little cookie-cutter slots. I don't know if geeks are necessarily automatically better and smarter and more brilliant and so on, as I have seen some of the messages in this forum claim, but so what -- it's unfair for anybody to be ostracised and picked-on just because they don't fit into any of the desirable cookie-cutter slots.
I do hope that these murders will not lead to even further targeting and ostracizing of kids who are unusual or don't fit in. We don't need the trait of individuality to be criminalized or pathologized. Kids who don't fit into the machine have it bad enough already.
--js
>the worst thing these kids ever did when they felt disenfranchised is they killed themselves. Oh, I see. It's okay, as long as they only kill themselves. Well that's fine then. >I have to place some blame with more violent entertainment. Well, I have to place the blame with the violent environment. In fact, I place the blame with those who don't care.
>the worst thing these kids ever did when they felt disenfranchised is they killed themselves.
Oh, I see. It's okay, as long as they only kill themselves. Well that's fine then.
>I have to place some blame with more violent entertainment.
Well, I have to place the blame with the violent environment. In fact, I place the blame with those who don't care.
I've always thought that America would be a better place if the jocks didn't get a state supported ego trip. As the geek in a high school that did have quite a few geeks, there wasn't pressure on me but some of the clickish groups tried unsuccessfuly to give me hell. They even screwed up my name in the yearbook. Oh well. I least I'm content with my life and don't have to worry about where I'm going to get my rent money :-)
(posted from Australia where most American HS football players couldn't even cope with the abuse of Aussie Footy)
In a country where juries will award a million dollars to a woman for spilling hot coffee on her lap, why doesn't anyone sue these schools which have such "look the other way" attitudes towards harassment of other students? I remember a year or two ago sexual harassment prevention in schools was the "big thing" (and went way overboard IMO). Since schools seem to only pay attention to lawsuits, this seems like the best way to win the war against apathetic school administrations.
Teachers come from the bottom 1/3 of college students
Yes, this little tidbit I learned when I took an education class at my college. I think this goes a long way to explaining why intelligent kids in high school are not treated fairly. The teachers were the jokes, the cheerleaders, and the want to be populars. Granted I am unfairly portraying some teachers. Some teachers go back because High School sucked for them.
I've had more than my share of grown up geeks throw their supposed weight around me. Just because you boss around a bunch of computer geeks doesn't mean I have to listen to your blather outside of your workplace. I think some of you are just so delighted that you've finally found an audience for your supposed knowledge. Listen up: many of us are not impressed with your world view. Many of you are far more obnoxious than even the dumbest jock because of sense of self-importance. Just because you can use a computer. Who died and made you kings?
I hope you aren't. For me, middle school was hell. But during high school (i'm now a senior) I learned to love and eventually like myself -- yes there is a difference. Do i give credit to my school? Some. I had been in public schools up until my freshman year so i've seen both types of schools and they're not really that different (in my experience). I am really lucky to be a member of the Class of '99 at my school. We have set records across the board: the highest entrence exam scores, the highest average GPA, the highest average pSAT scores, the most National Merit Scholars, the highest SAT scores, and records for the number of people taking and doing well on AP tests. But we're not just brains -- we've lead our school's sports teams to local, state, and national rankings (and our sports teams have earned recognition for ranking among the top average GPA's for their various sports in the state). And yet the class of '99 will not be remembered for any of these achievements -- we'll forever be remembered as the class with no spirit because we refuse to waste our time on intermural competitions and won't bother to cheer at rallies. It's actually quite funny when they call on each class in turn to see who can cheer the loudest and they get absolute silence from the class of '99.
Ok, I've been reading a few of these messages (I'll never be able to read all of them - egad!) and alot of people say they HATED high school. Even people who went to private schools.
Am I the only one here who likes school? Is my school, the Roeper School, really the only one like it? My school is made up of around 350 students in both middle and upper (High) school, and is based upon tolerance, interdependece, and a Humanistic philosophy. Out of the 350 people in the scool, probably 15 wear black trenchcoats, almost all of us are non-conformists, even the "normal, all american kids," and individualists.
I know my school is something special, something rare, something I'm both proud of, and feel quite lucky to be a part of, but is it really unique? I'd like to hear from people who think it is, isn't, even who thing a school like this is bad, though I certainly don't agree. Just, please, no flames.
Also, as far as the trenchcoat thing goes, heres a little story...
The day of the shooting (or maybe the day after), one of our teachers was sitting in her room, and thinking about what she had heard about it. One of her homeroom students walked into the room, wearing a black trenchcoat...
...And gave her a tulip and a hug. Now, really, are all people who wear black trenchcoats bad? It really isn't about what you wear.
And, one last thing, why aren't people fighting this [the anti-trenchcoat, anti-individualist thinking] more? I'm not sure if anything could be pulled off, but theoreticaly, it should be completly illegal. Them telling you not to wear something, or, even more basicaly, not to say something or print something in the newspaper, is a violation of the first amendment!
Also, for those interested, our school website is
http://www.roeper.org
It realy isn't very impressive.
Adam, Roeper Student.
OK, I've been a supernerd all my life. For the majority of Elementary School/Junior High, I was the brainy, chubby, smelly FOB kid (fresh off the boat). But at the end of Junior High I finally started maturing physically and getting thinner and more in shape, and my interest in sports grew. I was known as an asshole in eigth grade by my present friends, and they don't hesitate to tell me such.
The problem with the geek mentality is a matter of perception. Self-professed non-conformists often view themselves as superior to conformists, the sheep of the flock, but due to their views, the non-conformists view themselves as outcasts. This was definately my view of myself in eigth grade, having little self-esteem. I had a major superiority complex, viewing the dumber but more popular people as being future employers of Burger King (no offense, I love Whoppers).
During the 9th grade, I started exercising (ack, I could never spell that word) because I started getting interested in the local pro sports franchises. I was still chubby, but after awhile I was less tired throughout the day and was in better spirits. I started smiling more, even to those less-intelligent people. Pretty soon, I had some understanding friends.
Even now, while I play Starcraft:Brood War, Civ2, and video game RPGs incessantly, and take heavy interest in academics, and read novels (finished all of crichton's books, read a lot of dragonlance, some clancy and grisham) and spend a lot of time online, people accept me. There are those at school who think they're better than everyone, but those people are the ones branded as stuck-up assholes/hoes.
Self-professed geeks (myself included) need to lighten up and enjoy life a bit, maybe try some aspects of conformity rather than totally scorn all establishment values. After all, exercise (damn that word!) helps you live longer. And try to keep that superiority complex under control; I think I've established a third-person personality that talks to my brain about how others would view me. It's no use to act like an ass to those who treat you like an ass, you just sink to their level.
Society itself needs to be more understanding. Perhaps I have been lucky enough to go to a school where our football team hasn't had a winning season in 40-odd years, and badminton is the dominant sport. Teachers, especially English teachers, encourage understanding and individualism/self-expression. Cliques are non-existant, except for those who choose to isolate themselves from everyone else (druggies mostly, also the racial hate-types). Coolness is a matter of perception and understanding.
A complete genius goes to my school. He has long hair, dresses in sweats, has a zit-pocketed face, and is one of the most eccentric people I know. Before this year, I thought he was a complete psycho. Well, after a year in Computer Science AP (just flunked the test) I found out he was a complete psycho, but everyone in the class enjoyed his presence and off-beat antics.
Another genius is in my Computer Science class. This guy is quiet, studious, and shy. When people tease him (the typical someone-likes-someone thing) he snaps at them. Needless to say, he isn't very while liked, even though if you speak to him on a personal basis he's a very nice guy.
It's not just society and the establishment that needs to rethink their values; supernerds and non-conformists need to also think of what they value.
As for me, I'll hang with both my supergenius and future burger-flipping friends.
Peace Out from San Jose
Please, please, PLEASE be careful what you say!
"sick of kids complaining that their schools or parents are being nosey...you children have no 'rights'"
Stop right there. To say that kids have no rights is to condone child labor. To say that kids have no right to privacy _at all_ is to open the gates and let Big Brother(tm) walk right on in for the rest of us. If a child can have no expectation of privacy or rights at all, then they will simply become more clever at hiding things. I know I did. If a child has no expectation of rights at all, then how will they learn to stand up for their rights as an adult?
"your parents are responsible for your actions"
Apparently not in this situation. Also, that premise is faulty. Why are there 16 year olds on death row?
"Get off of your high horse and come down to earth Mr. Katz, yes some of these things are a bit extreme, but if it saves lives then it's all for the best."
While we turn out a generation of hollow conformist shells. You obviously thought this one out...
"You want a solution to this problen, lets start with school uniforms and strict curfews."
Boundries are good. Still kinda tough when both parents work late. By your standards, I would have been a troublemaker in high school. I got to school at 6:30 in the morning and usually didn't get picked up at night until 8:00, oft-times later. But, still a good start...
I am unclear as to where your ideas end and the sarcasm begins...
"parents need a tighter rein on kids these days, quit blaming guns, games, internet, and movies. The fault can be laid directly at the feet of the parents and the school."
Verily. Let's just not go overboard and create (note I do not say raise here) a leigon of young'uns that are seen and not heard, do not speak out of turn, and always do what they are told. Hell, while we're at it, let's hobble 'em like they do women in China. That should help.
"So on a serious note kiddies, your parents have a
right to anything you "own" or that you put in writing, you have no right to privacy."
See earlier in this post.
In conclusion, I whole-heartedly agree with the idea of discipline and parental involvement. I _do not_ agree with the concept that kids are property, which is what you have implied. Ever stop to think that maybe that concept got parents into trouble in the first place? 'Oh, it's a cute little possession. I hope I don't have to take care of it.'
When we start treating our young like young adults, not new machines, not toys, not trophies, then maybe we can start to fix this problem. Hysteria and knee jerk reactions (in either direction) will not help. Check my sig; I believe in what I say...
Here's my copy of DeCSS. Where's yours?
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
"Only then do they kill you. The bullet always comes in the back of the head. "
Da, Tovaritch.
Here's my copy of DeCSS. Where's yours?
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
All this talk about the abuse of nerd by jocks and the hell of a high school is really getting too far. There is a difference between jokes from classmates and mistreating by teachers. What do most of you do when being confronted by a strong, athletic, popular guys in school? Probably take that joke, push, punch, or kick, swallow it deep inside your gut, and walk away. Common people. That is why you are getting treated like this - because you allow them to treat you like this. Stand up and tell the jock to go to hell, return his punch, kick, push. You'll say "well I'm gonna get my ass kicked then" It's true. But you will proove to them that you are not afraid of them. When they know that you are afraid they will bug you more for their fun.
I was reading some of the replies to Ketz's article, and could have written most of them myself about my first couple years in middle-school...
Inpite that, I was amazed by the quantity and the content of them regarding to high-schools in the US; I myself am from Israel, and although we have a *lot* to catch up in law,order,moral and religion issues w/ the USA, i do feel that in the field of inter-school relations, we are a hellofalot better off.
Im a geek (gamer,heavy net user, back&eyez-wrecking-in-front-of-computer, coder, etc), but so are a large % of my classmates (to a lesser extent, but still) and we do not suffer from humanoid jocks and such as much as described here... thankfully.
How do you guys other there allow them to shove you around? Stand up for your rights! FIGHT!
(I dont wish to encourge everyone to violence -- there are other ways of protecting yourself.)
I was wondering how it is like in other non-US schools...
try67
To the fool, he who speaks wisdom will sound foolish. ---Euripides
That there is someone like the original poster of the "whine whine.." comment, above, demonstrates
that this is not merely preaching to the converted.
You shouldn't have to remind people to be nice to one another, or that there are people who aren't. But if you're
thinking of reminding a few people, you might as well tell more. I think we can all use a reminder
of this sort of thing-- if it leads you to be just slightly nicer to someone you meet, or to be a bit more
understanding, then it's worth repeating.
Josh
Sorry this is looking nasty. I'm posting using lynx, and ought to be paying more attention to how it comes out.
Yeah, and this is a mature response, isn't it?
all that there was a lot of crap going on in high school, I did know some interesting people, and occasionally managed to have a good time. Often, though, it's the crap that stands out.
And having people like you come out and be unpleasant about it doesn't help.
I don't particularly care that other people had a better time in high school than I did. I just care that they had to make themselves feel better by making me (and my friends) feel worse.
There's a great difference here. I hope you're bright enough to figure that out.
Josh
Yeah, no kidding.
Hi, Carla. I doubt you're reading this.
Josh
This never happened to you?
The problem isn't a few insults-- the problem is constant, unwavering abuse.
Sometimes, subtle abuse. Sometimes people shouting "Hey, faggot!" as they drive by.
The problem is thrown things in class. The problem is being tripped in the hall. The problem
is people muttering "fag" as you walk by. The problem is so overwhelming that those
people you malign, the ones who, as you say, "relate better to inanimate objects" can't cope, because it's difficult to cope with that sort of thing.
Especially when it's constant. You sound like you were never in this position. For this, I think I envy you.
I've been thinking for a while now that there must be a better way of running a civilized society so that so many people aren't so miserable all the time. I'm starting to think that the solution is probably gunna come from /.ers.
I wanted to burn my high school down with everyone in it. It sucked so fucking much. I hated every day of school. I was a martian geek in a zoo full of drooling knuckledragging slopeheaded vampire robots.
But there's no virtue in geekishness. I see it now. One's inability to deal with the testosteroneized zombie fucks simply describes a lack of skill, a lack of skill stemming from a lack of attention. The zombies are machines, indeed. It's silly to expect a machine to express kindness or sympathy or understanding. A machine only behaves the way it's programmed to behave. (Likewise groups of machines. Case in point: our so-called society). It's also silly to expect one of these zombie-machines to treat you as something other than a convenient source of blood if you fail to moo and click in the right machine codes. The machines absorb these codes via unconscious processes just like everything else in their "lives". You, the geek, would be wise to learn these codes (and you'd be silly if you think you can pick them up with your nose in a computer or a book or whatever your fetish is.) It's just like operating a softdrink dispenser or a computer. Don't blame the machine because you don't know how to operate it, and don't blame it for not acting human. That's like blaming a can opener because it won't change the channel on your tv.
This article and all it's followups are important.
The shooting in Littleton, CO has left a lot of people "out there" wondering "what happened?"
It has also left a lot of people saying "I'll tell you why!" Many people are pointing fingers at
many things. Video-Games, The Internet, Gothic music/style, the NRA... you name it... but to
date, I have not seen the popular media address the core of the issue... what happened to
these kids? What happened in their lives that left them thinking this massacre was the
solution?
I am a big believer in personal responsibility. Allow me to say now that I do not condone or
excuse these kids for doing what they did. What I do wonder is where is the personal
responsibility on the part of people other than these two kids? Why have I not seen reports on
what these kids home-lives were like? How about the school lives?
This whole thing is very disturbing to me. I have heard about young people being
'disconnected' from their computers... from their friends... because of the actions of these two
kids, and what the media has to say about it. Blame this or blame that, this story is about
being disconnected in the first place. These kids were alienated, from their peers, probably
from their parents. They self destructed, and in this case, took a bunch of people with them. I
don't recall mention of the hundreds/thousands of kids per year who simply take themselves
out.
Anyway, I find myself thinking about my own school experiences... About the torture that I
received, sometimes on a daily basis. I recall myself and some of my friends being near
suicide on some occasions. I find myself thanking the powers that be for having the parents
that I did, who helped me understand what was going on, and for the friends I had who helped
each other through it.
People don't seem to be aware that at least some of the things that pushed these kids happen
every day to thousands of kids. They've been happening to people for years. How many of you
were called names? tripped in the halls? shoved into lockers? beat up? Did the administration
at your school do anything about it?
I saw a brief spot on one of the local news stations here in VA about a local school that has a
mandatory class on tolerance. I was nearly applauding at the television. The schools I
attended didn't have anything like that. I think that is the best thing I've seen in a school in
my entire life. Does your local school have something like that? If not, why not?
I have a mass of emotion balled up around this incident, as I'm sure most of you do. I'm so sad
for all the people who died there, including the two kids who did the killing. I'm sad for all of
the kids who quietly self destruct for the same reasons. I'm feeling all of the anger and pain
from those days in my own life. AND I'm angry as hell at every bastard who is taking this
opportunity to grandstand on whatever issue they are pushing. Take your "NRA sucks" signs
and your "Internet is evil" signs and put them away! People died. People killed each other.
This is gonna happen again, and again. There is more here than CNN is reporting... Somehow
this message needs to get out.
Please pass this article on to the people you know. Give people this URL... or
whatever... but please pass this info on.
Chief Cartographer Olórin Press
I've been reading the mass media and paying attention to the coverage this incident has had.
Most of the time while doing this I've been yelling at inanimate objects (television, newspaper) about how stupid and unaware the authors and newswriters are being.
I have read this article and I have sent emails to every person I know, geek or not, suggesting they read it.
What is going on here is important... It needs to make it to the mass media. The type of persecution that is currently happenning to kids all over the country because of the coverage of this tragedy is horrible and stupid... and until someone in the mass-media starts spewing sanity, it's gonna keep happenning.
Someone needs to bring to light what is really the problem here, not Doom, not the Internet, not the NRA... but tolerance. And the alienation and abuse that these two kids took, and thousands of others take every day.
These kids are getting media attention because when they self destructed they took 15 people with
them. If they quietly blew themselves away at home, how much attention would they have gotten. The answer: none. How many suicides happenned at your school while you were there?
That's something to get angry about.
So... write your newspaper... write CNN... write (gulp) msnbc... Get someone in the mass media to notice this. Perhaps it's not too late to inject some sanity and reality into this media frenzy.
Chief Cartographer Olórin Press
I was one of those geeks in HS...I was bright and socially awkward, and frail, since I didn't get my growth spurts until I was 16...I was thrown down flights of stairs and beaten up in the bathroom and had my locker trashed, got food thrown at me, got my face pushed down into my lunchtray, got the s*** kicked out of me going to and from school, and had terrible rumors started about me...I was an object of torment and ridicule from the "popular" kids...and nobody ever lifted a damned finger to help me...not my parents, not the school administrators, not the teachers...no one could be bothered to help me.
So the day came when enough was enough, and I buried a knife up to the handle in on of my tormenters...he was 2 years older, at least 50-60 pounds heavier, taller and very muscular...I stuck him with the knife and then all of the sudden he's dancing around, pouring blood everywhere and calling me an a$$h*le, saying "what did I ever do to you?" Heh heh, yeah right.
I got arrested and got in lots of trouble for it, because I defended myself against a bully, but nothing ever happened to one of them, nobody ever called the cops when they smashed my face against a brick wall in school and my glasses shattered into my face...oh no, they covered that sh*t up, because it just wouldn't do to have their star jocks getting arrested for battery...but me, I was a bad guy, a felon, because I wanted to be left the f*** alone to live my life without their hateful abuse.
The one good thing that came of the whole deal was that after that incident, people left me alone, for the most part...my best and most satisfying revenge over the years is watching most of my tormenters go to jail and die from drug overdoses, alcohol-related car wrecks, and general acts of insanity. One of my tormenters became a big drug dealer, and I had the exquisite pleasure of sending him to prison with a call from a payphone. Paybacks are indeed a bitch.
I can't condone what those kids in Littleton did, but I well understand what it is like to be backed into a corner and abused and tormented day after day with no damned hope or relief in sight, and nobody will help you...thank God my family doesn't believe in guns, or I might have "borrowed" some of dad's weapons for a bit of "show and tell" at school one day...I look at Littleton and I know, for sure, what day to day life at school was like for those kids...and I understand, sort of.
Society had better take a cold, hard look in the mirror and make the necessary changes, otherwise we will be hearing of many more school shootings like the Littleton massacre...killers are NOT born...our society makes them. If you kick a dog long enuff, it'll go mad and try to gnaw your leg off...same with geek kids. Torment them enough and you'd better invest in a Kevlar vest because John Q Geekmeister III is going to bust a cap in your ass...and when he does, please don't ask why he did it -- the blame is all yours, you signed your own death warrant.
The Drifter
-- Software is like sex, It's better when it's free...
I was inspired to write this poem after hearing about all of the comments made on the shootings in Colorado. My friends (who are considered freaks in my school) thought it was a really good poem about how society makes people conform, and then when this plan backfires, they place the blame on something completely irrelevant. So I thought I would post it and see if it had the same affect on everyone else.
"The Land of the Free"
Everyday of our lives we are taught the same lesson:
Don't fight the System,
Don't speak out,
Don't dress differently.
Be a part of the crowd,
But don't make a scene.
Don't be a blip on the radar of humanity.
Blend in.
This message has been etched in stone
And continues to repress and distress.
The hatred multiplies
As those "freaks," those cancers on the popular skin,
Must comply.
But it is this silence
That feeds the violence.
All of the Doom
Brought forth by a volatile human Quake
May seem Unreal.
But this is no game,
And it was no game that caused this.
It was the repression, the deception,
The correction, the depression.
If the undesirables make a stand,
Raise their collective hand,
If they even dare to breathe,
Push them down; make them desirable.
That's the American Way.
If something is wrong, just point the blame
On television or a video game.
There's no shame in that.
It's not the parents' fault;
They are symbols of perfection,
Models for the youth.
To tell you the truth,
Why am I even writing this poem?
It's not about talent or scholarship,
But conformity and censorship.
1984 is not too far-fetched.
Let's just hope that all the dreamers,
All the geeks, all the freaks,
Stay true to themselves
Because they can emancipate the slaves
Hopefully without filling up the graves.
They are the key
To making this nation what it claims to be:
The land of the free.
Lets not mix 'geek' and 'outcast' even those terms are considered similar in conventional wisdom. In 1 generation, every kid will be using the internet, programming, etc., and it will be quite common. Instead of working at GM you work at Microsoft or whatever, so the internet and computers are not the issue here.
There will always be outcasts, however, geek or not. For their to be 'in' their has to be in 'out'
Also why does everyone here assume and imply that outcasts are brilliant? Lots of them are not. People on slashdot forget that it is very easy (if not more easy) to be an idiot and outcast or just a regular 100IQ average joe who is just shy and be an outcast.
I see a lot 'projecting' from this tragedy by the 'geeks' on this board. And it shows that techies have been outcasts too, which I find sad and was not really aware of even though I have been one for a while.
The pain is visible and touching. But the solace should be that in the future (your kids and grandkids) being comfortable with computers will be the norm.
Nonetheless, outcasts will be persist always and must suffer for their differences. And the idea that people choose to be different or are 'free thinking' etc. is also silly. You don't have to be a slave to the machine to be considered 'normal.' Lets not be intolerant of people because they have no problem fitting in. And for those that don't fit in, not all of them are bright, free thinking, artists.
No more sterotypes please.
For most of my education I attended an all-girls private school in NYC. At age six, girls knew enough about social stratification to say I was half as good as them because I was skinny, knobby-kneed and in their world, poor. By junior high, they'd beat me up for getting a good part in the school play. And by eighth grade students and teachers alike screamed at me daily for being inappropriate because I would cry when students told me I was ugly and didn't deserve to exist. I was constantly thrown out of classrooms for standing up for myself, when the girls who started it would never be punished. There was an award the school gave out, ostensibly to the girl with the most community service. God, I wanted that stupid silver cup, and I was a shoe-in for it, but I didn't get it -- it was given instead to a student who had less achievement in this area than me but whose demeanor was deamed more representative of the school. Couldn't have an award winner who didn't smile just right in the school fundraising magazine I guess.
You've heard it all before, right? Miserable, lonely and not only did no one care, no one believed.
My final years of high school were finished out at a specalized public school. I knew, maybe ten people, all nerds like me. But everyone knew me -- the girl with the funny clothes, the girl who must be anorexic she's so thin (I have a heart condition that affects my weight), the girl who tries to fit in with the goth kids but is too shy even to talk to them.
I can't tell you college was much different. People would call me and threaten to rape me because I was dating a woman. People hissed at me in the halls because of funny clothes I'd wear to clubs, or my gay friends, or the fact that I was the only non-Christian on my floor.
But by college I had a choice. I had a city to make friends in, not just a school. But aside from the city where I went to college, the Internet, unusual music and books were my refuge. I discovered that sometimes in books, emotions were something other than villified. We shouldn't be raising children in a world where this is a revelation.
But of course, the things that kept me alive are all demonized now. And the kids relying on those things for survival are about to be more alone than ever. Because the clothes that make them feel beautiful won't be allowed in schools or homes, the books that let their imaginations save them from the stupid tortures of high school will be banned, the music that feels the way they feel will be even harder to find, and the computer that lets them talk to people who are actually like them will be unplugged.
And we can all sit around here at slashdot and say "wow, isn't this cathartic!" or "isn't it meaningful that in the wake of such a disgusting crime at least we can start talking about these issues." Guess what? the only people listening are the people like us. And we're not the ones who need to be listening. We need to find the courage to keep talking, but we need to be talking to the people who weren't/aren't like us.
I am twenty-six years old. I have a cool job (yay professional geeks!) and a good life that has very little to do with my particular growing pains. I know a lot of people who aren't so lucky, who as adults are still crippled by the cruelties of childhood. I think most people make that their fault -- but honestly, I cannot believe a child (or a former child) should ever be held accountable for receiving the message that they weren't worthy of love or respect, even from themselves.
Tonight, I'm going to take the time to write letters to the teachers I had growing up who did listen -- there were thankfully one or two -- and thank them. I'm also going to take time to write to the administrators at the schools I attended, not with a list of my particular bitter memories (that's for you folks), but just to remind them that in our hunt for potentially dangerous youth, we musn't destroy all the creative, intellectual or eccentric youth as well. I don't know what I'll say yet. I hope it's more coherent than this. But I also hope, if you've read this far, you'll do the same.