Why should the 2nd largest economy worry about "pissing off" the 5th, especially when that 5th is likely to be heading down and possibly splintering?
I said small, I didn't say China... Germany and France are not going to make hay, it is the smaller nations... and it isn't a single economy, no matter how much they want to pretend it is...
The UK is also nearly 20% of the entire EU's economy, it is far more complex than the idiots on TV make it out to be...
If a large enough fraction of any electorate wants a do-over on a referendum, then why not? Why does this have to be a winner-take-all scenario?
1. What would that fraction be? About 48% of Americans didn't vote for Obama in 2008, perhaps we should have had a do-over in that?
2. It is winner-take-all because there is no middle ground between stay in the EU and leave, it is a yes or no decision. Not everything has a compromise position.
Such an important decision should always have a super majority which is exactly what is demanded, exactly to avoid this.
Maybe... but those weren't the rules... that is trying to change the game after the fact...
This decision has been made, for better or worse, if the UK doesn't now leave the EU, it actually means that voting and democracy is weaker, not stronger, because your vote doesn't really count "unless people in charge want it to count".
This is not internet changing rules, this is using internet as medium to lay their rules, this is not a random internet petition, it is part of the uk democratic system.
So should we just start having votes over and over until the result that those in power want to get?
Or until the SJW who are loudest get what they want?
It has become really easy to get a lot of people to click on a web site, but that doesn't mean much... Lets see 1 million people turn out to a 3 day long protest, then I'll be impressed...
Frankly, in 50 years homes might not even be built with full kitchens anymore...
Why? Because it will become so cheap and so easy to have robots make quality food and deliver it, people just won't bother to cook anymore.
Some of you will laugh at that, and of course some people will keep full kitchens, but the space that they take up today might be cut in half for other uses once robot food delivery becomes normal.
it's been a beautiful example of how to give away am empire.
Yep, it didn't cause the rise of Islamic terrorism in the Middle East, endless war in the Middle East, India and Pakistan obtaining nuclear weapons and fighting multiple wars, and on, and on... We won't even talk about how much Africa is a mess because of this...
Yea, it has been all peaches and roses...
*roll eyes*
You either don't know your history or have chosen to not know your history.
Churchill was a great wartime leader
Yea, yea, that is what you were taught so you believe it. The sad thing is that most people never really question what they were taught...
It did around 9/11 as the world realized you have no forces in your own country.
If you believe that, then you really don't know anything about the US...
A single terrorist act does not mean we're defenseless... any nation can be attacked on the first day without warning and be successful, the question is, three days later would the attacker be sorry for doing it...
As of 31 December 2009, a total of 1,137,568 personnel were on active duty within the United States and its territories (including 84,461 afloat). The vast majority (941,629 personnel) were stationed at bases within the contiguous United States.
9/11 started and ended within 2 hours... no nation will respond to such an event that quickly when it is a new thing... We now maintain combat air patrols randomly around cities and more often around big cities and keep fighters on alert at various locations...
It is expensive to maintain a war footing 24/7, but during the cold war we did it with various forces...
The saying actually was: "the sun never sets on Spain".
It was, until the UK did it better...:)
Now it is America's turn! While we have less of an "Empire", the sun never sets on US military forces, our overseas bases, or nations that... for better or worse, do what we want them to do...
I very much doubt either Trump, Hillary or any other US President will put up with British delusions of grandieur to the extent EU did. After all, UK was a member of the EU, but not of the US.
You don't understand... The EU wanted to rule over the UK, but the US has no desire to rule over the UK, nor any delusions that it wants to be ruled over...
We want to be friends, we're asking the UK to hang out with us, not get married... the UK is not going to become the 51st state...
If I were US President, one thing I'd suggest to the British would be a swap of military bases, both for mutual defense and as a sign of friendship and mutual interest. Let us base 5,000 troops and some ships in England, and you can base 5,000 troops and some ships in the US. A token force as a reminder of friendship and shared ties that go back nearly 500 years...
Well, 800 years, a thousand years, who's counting?:) It all gets a bit murky when you decide to pick these dates...
Was it the Magna Carta? 1215? Except that was still fought over...
Before then? After then?
I also don't get the part about being in the EU for 43 years.
I'm giving it the most generous length possible:
"Britain joined the European Economic Community on 1 January 1973, with Denmark and Ireland."
No, that wasn't the "EU", but it was the start of it...
If you make it shorter, then my point becomes stronger, not weaker.:)
Or is it like how the United States of America was founded around the year 1000 when Eric the Red found Skraelings in Newfoundland?
If you ask some Americans, the United States of America was always here, the UK was just not letting us be free and the French were busy throwing down their rifles and running away!:)
Lots of Americans are stupid, what can I say?
The United States of America is a country in progress, much like the UK is and was for a long time... we now recognize gay marriage for example... (which as a conservative right-wing person, I support, believe it or not)
Northern Ireland, Scotland, and London voted to remain, and that's about it. Everyone else voted to leave (in terms of districts).
Sure, the financial business in London was great, but the average person is not better off today than 20 years ago, too much cheap labor, too much migration, that is what you miss...
We have the same problem in the US, which is why Trump ran right over 16 other people running for the Republican ticket... The well off are just fine, but the average worker hasn't seen a pay increase in 20+ years... Yet Democrats have been in office for a majority of that time and sometimes have also controlled Congress. So why hasn't anything been done?
Because the Democrats AND the Republicans basically just want to play the game as it is, without change, while letting the rich get richer.
Hillary is deep in the pocket of Wall Street, it is a sick joke that anyone thinks she cares about "the little people".
Why do you think Bernie Sanders got so much support? And he is a crazy socialist! (Americans generally hate that word)
Well they can have fun with the Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans, Byzantines, etc. I'm a Canadian with strong ties to England (mother and brother have English passports) and I believe that they have just taken a giant step in their long decline.
The irony is that Winston Churchill is generally looked at as a great leader of the UK, when in truth he led the UK to ruin...
Had he made a deal with Hitler, as evil as he was, the UK might well still have its Empire. Instead Winston Churchill bankrupted the UK and forced it to give up much of that Empire. In turn, the rise of America came from that war and then the cold war that followed. Had Hitler been able to fight Russia, he might have won without interference, but more likely it would have ended up like India and Pakistan, or North and South Korea, without one side or the other able to win.
Hitler really had no idea how big Russia really was and bit off way more than he could chew, but Russia had its own issues. Letting two horrible leaders fight it out would have been the smarter choice for the UK.
Thus, Winston Churchill was a fool who destroyed 400 years of Empire over idealism...
America supports those who do its bidding. The more you need us, the more we'll ask for. Hey, if you really want America's help, send 100,000 ground troops to Syria for us. Thanks.
That is the old way of thinking, the elite who have been in power for a very long time...
You don't have Trump yet, who will kick over a lot of old political nonsense...
That is why you voted for Brexit, same problem, the old people in power didn't want to give it up, neither does the RNC or DNC here, they both want to hold on to it at any cost and Trump is a threat to that.
Look at Trumps tweets already, committing to backing the UK...
Well, for about 400 years it ruled 1/4 of the whole planet... There is a reason there is a saying "the sun never sets on the British Empire"...
So much changed so fast after WWII, the world is still recovering from it...
A lot depends on what happens during the breakup... it could be messy, or rather nice... and a lot depends on who becomes President in the US, how much of a friend the UK has in the US.
I know if it were put to a vote here, I'd stand with the UK on ideological grounds, if nothing else, and the history of our special relationship.
Note: I'm aware that relationship has been rocky at times, including a rebellion and war, but that's ok, our time together goes back longer than that...
Note 2: I like France and Germany as well for other reasons. France for helping us win independence (I will be forever grateful for that, more Americans should be), and Germany for being, well, Germany and providing us with so many brilliant scientists and inventions and other things... more than most Americans know about...
The strongest party in a negotiation is the one that can afford to walk away. Who does anyone who disagrees with the parent thinks is in the stronger position, the UK or the EU.
The UK... The UK is the world's oldest democracy and has stood for nearly a thousand years...
It has been in the EU for 43 years, it'll do just fine outside it...
It also has the world's 6th largest economy and a very powerful friend in the United States... a LOT of Americans would take the UK's side over the EU's, and if Trump becomes President, so will he...
If the EU really wanted to have fun, they could probably make the UK economy collapse completely by refusing to trade with them. The impact on the rest of the EU would be small compared with the impact on the UK.
The EU doesn't have that much power... The UK is nearly 10% of the entire economy of the EU and is the 6th largest economy in the world. They also have the 6th largest military expenditures and after the US and Russia, have the most nuclear weapons.
We don't need another European war, thank you very much... what you suggest would end up with one...
They will have to live with the consequences that have been imposed on them, and economic problems will fall far more heavily on them than anyone else.
Great Britain has been a successful democracy for nearly a thousand years...
It has been part of the EU for 43 years...
I think it will survive just fine on its own, it IS the world's 6th largest economy...
This, incidentally, is why I would bet on Trump winning in November, scary though that is. And things feel scary in the UK this morning.
And actually at this point, you should WANT Trump to win...
Right now the UK could use a powerful friend, and the USA is powerful indeed... Trump will take the UKs side over the EU, where as Hillary will do the reverse (and has already said so)...
Slashdot Mirror
And don't you think for a second that I'm going to decrypt that one here in this office.
You might, if I hit you with a $5 wrench hard enough...
Or perhaps your wife and kids...
Why should the 2nd largest economy worry about "pissing off" the 5th, especially when that 5th is likely to be heading down and possibly splintering?
I said small, I didn't say China... Germany and France are not going to make hay, it is the smaller nations... and it isn't a single economy, no matter how much they want to pretend it is...
The UK is also nearly 20% of the entire EU's economy, it is far more complex than the idiots on TV make it out to be...
About 22 million of people voted for "stay".
The irony is that you're modded up to +5 Insightful and you have no idea how many people actually voted for "Remain"...
This is exactly what is wrong with elections today, lots of people talking, so very few know what they are talking about.
A number of voters greater than the margin of the vote
You need to think through that a bit before you speak it out loud...
Then think about it again, and as many more times until you see how completely flawed the idea is...
If a large enough fraction of any electorate wants a do-over on a referendum, then why not? Why does this have to be a winner-take-all scenario?
1. What would that fraction be? About 48% of Americans didn't vote for Obama in 2008, perhaps we should have had a do-over in that?
2. It is winner-take-all because there is no middle ground between stay in the EU and leave, it is a yes or no decision. Not everything has a compromise position.
Such an important decision should always have a super majority which is exactly what is demanded, exactly to avoid this.
Maybe... but those weren't the rules... that is trying to change the game after the fact...
This decision has been made, for better or worse, if the UK doesn't now leave the EU, it actually means that voting and democracy is weaker, not stronger, because your vote doesn't really count "unless people in charge want it to count".
This is not internet changing rules, this is using internet as medium to lay their rules, this is not a random internet petition, it is part of the uk democratic system.
So should we just start having votes over and over until the result that those in power want to get?
Or until the SJW who are loudest get what they want?
It has become really easy to get a lot of people to click on a web site, but that doesn't mean much... Lets see 1 million people turn out to a 3 day long protest, then I'll be impressed...
Some issues in the EU can be decided by majority. Those decisions can be made very UK-unfriendly when the UK tries that.
Yes, why don't a bunch of small counties piss off the 5th largest economy in the world...
This is how government works. Keep having referendums until the voters do what they are told.
Fixed that for you...
Frankly, in 50 years homes might not even be built with full kitchens anymore...
Why? Because it will become so cheap and so easy to have robots make quality food and deliver it, people just won't bother to cook anymore.
Some of you will laugh at that, and of course some people will keep full kitchens, but the space that they take up today might be cut in half for other uses once robot food delivery becomes normal.
it's been a beautiful example of how to give away am empire.
Yep, it didn't cause the rise of Islamic terrorism in the Middle East, endless war in the Middle East, India and Pakistan obtaining nuclear weapons and fighting multiple wars, and on, and on... We won't even talk about how much Africa is a mess because of this...
Yea, it has been all peaches and roses...
*roll eyes*
You either don't know your history or have chosen to not know your history.
Churchill was a great wartime leader
Yea, yea, that is what you were taught so you believe it. The sad thing is that most people never really question what they were taught...
It did around 9/11 as the world realized you have no forces in your own country.
If you believe that, then you really don't know anything about the US...
A single terrorist act does not mean we're defenseless... any nation can be attacked on the first day without warning and be successful, the question is, three days later would the attacker be sorry for doing it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
As of 31 December 2009, a total of 1,137,568 personnel were on active duty within the United States and its territories (including 84,461 afloat). The vast majority (941,629 personnel) were stationed at bases within the contiguous United States.
9/11 started and ended within 2 hours... no nation will respond to such an event that quickly when it is a new thing... We now maintain combat air patrols randomly around cities and more often around big cities and keep fighters on alert at various locations...
It is expensive to maintain a war footing 24/7, but during the cold war we did it with various forces...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
EC-135 Looking Glass aircraft were airborne 24 hours a day for over 29 years, until July 24, 1990
The saying actually was: "the sun never sets on Spain".
It was, until the UK did it better... :)
Now it is America's turn! While we have less of an "Empire", the sun never sets on US military forces, our overseas bases, or nations that... for better or worse, do what we want them to do...
I very much doubt either Trump, Hillary or any other US President will put up with British delusions of grandieur to the extent EU did. After all, UK was a member of the EU, but not of the US.
You don't understand... The EU wanted to rule over the UK, but the US has no desire to rule over the UK, nor any delusions that it wants to be ruled over...
We want to be friends, we're asking the UK to hang out with us, not get married... the UK is not going to become the 51st state...
If I were US President, one thing I'd suggest to the British would be a swap of military bases, both for mutual defense and as a sign of friendship and mutual interest. Let us base 5,000 troops and some ships in England, and you can base 5,000 troops and some ships in the US. A token force as a reminder of friendship and shared ties that go back nearly 500 years...
I know you said, "nearly"
Well, 800 years, a thousand years, who's counting? :) It all gets a bit murky when you decide to pick these dates...
Was it the Magna Carta? 1215? Except that was still fought over...
Before then? After then?
I also don't get the part about being in the EU for 43 years.
I'm giving it the most generous length possible:
"Britain joined the European Economic Community on 1 January 1973, with Denmark and Ireland."
No, that wasn't the "EU", but it was the start of it...
If you make it shorter, then my point becomes stronger, not weaker. :)
Or is it like how the United States of America was founded around the year 1000 when Eric the Red found Skraelings in Newfoundland?
If you ask some Americans, the United States of America was always here, the UK was just not letting us be free and the French were busy throwing down their rifles and running away! :)
Lots of Americans are stupid, what can I say?
The United States of America is a country in progress, much like the UK is and was for a long time... we now recognize gay marriage for example... (which as a conservative right-wing person, I support, believe it or not)
Trump has already congratulated the UK for leaving the EU.
This is why England should now wish to see Trump become President, because he'll be a much stronger friend to the UK than Clinton would...
It's actually the exact opposite.
The election heat map would disagree with you...
Northern Ireland, Scotland, and London voted to remain, and that's about it. Everyone else voted to leave (in terms of districts).
Sure, the financial business in London was great, but the average person is not better off today than 20 years ago, too much cheap labor, too much migration, that is what you miss...
We have the same problem in the US, which is why Trump ran right over 16 other people running for the Republican ticket... The well off are just fine, but the average worker hasn't seen a pay increase in 20+ years... Yet Democrats have been in office for a majority of that time and sometimes have also controlled Congress. So why hasn't anything been done?
Because the Democrats AND the Republicans basically just want to play the game as it is, without change, while letting the rich get richer.
Hillary is deep in the pocket of Wall Street, it is a sick joke that anyone thinks she cares about "the little people".
Why do you think Bernie Sanders got so much support? And he is a crazy socialist! (Americans generally hate that word)
Americans are sick and tired of the status quo...
Well they can have fun with the Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans, Byzantines, etc. I'm a Canadian with strong ties to England (mother and brother have English passports) and I believe that they have just taken a giant step in their long decline.
The irony is that Winston Churchill is generally looked at as a great leader of the UK, when in truth he led the UK to ruin...
Had he made a deal with Hitler, as evil as he was, the UK might well still have its Empire. Instead Winston Churchill bankrupted the UK and forced it to give up much of that Empire. In turn, the rise of America came from that war and then the cold war that followed. Had Hitler been able to fight Russia, he might have won without interference, but more likely it would have ended up like India and Pakistan, or North and South Korea, without one side or the other able to win.
Hitler really had no idea how big Russia really was and bit off way more than he could chew, but Russia had its own issues. Letting two horrible leaders fight it out would have been the smarter choice for the UK.
Thus, Winston Churchill was a fool who destroyed 400 years of Empire over idealism...
America supports those who do its bidding. The more you need us, the more we'll ask for. Hey, if you really want America's help, send 100,000 ground troops to Syria for us. Thanks.
That is the old way of thinking, the elite who have been in power for a very long time...
Trump is not one of those people...
You don't have Trump yet, who will kick over a lot of old political nonsense...
That is why you voted for Brexit, same problem, the old people in power didn't want to give it up, neither does the RNC or DNC here, they both want to hold on to it at any cost and Trump is a threat to that.
Look at Trumps tweets already, committing to backing the UK...
Well, for about 400 years it ruled 1/4 of the whole planet... There is a reason there is a saying "the sun never sets on the British Empire"...
So much changed so fast after WWII, the world is still recovering from it...
A lot depends on what happens during the breakup... it could be messy, or rather nice... and a lot depends on who becomes President in the US, how much of a friend the UK has in the US.
I know if it were put to a vote here, I'd stand with the UK on ideological grounds, if nothing else, and the history of our special relationship.
Note: I'm aware that relationship has been rocky at times, including a rebellion and war, but that's ok, our time together goes back longer than that...
Note 2: I like France and Germany as well for other reasons. France for helping us win independence (I will be forever grateful for that, more Americans should be), and Germany for being, well, Germany and providing us with so many brilliant scientists and inventions and other things... more than most Americans know about...
The strongest party in a negotiation is the one that can afford to walk away. Who does anyone who disagrees with the parent thinks is in the stronger position, the UK or the EU.
The UK... The UK is the world's oldest democracy and has stood for nearly a thousand years...
It has been in the EU for 43 years, it'll do just fine outside it...
It also has the world's 6th largest economy and a very powerful friend in the United States... a LOT of Americans would take the UK's side over the EU's, and if Trump becomes President, so will he...
If the EU really wanted to have fun, they could probably make the UK economy collapse completely by refusing to trade with them. The impact on the rest of the EU would be small compared with the impact on the UK.
The EU doesn't have that much power... The UK is nearly 10% of the entire economy of the EU and is the 6th largest economy in the world. They also have the 6th largest military expenditures and after the US and Russia, have the most nuclear weapons.
We don't need another European war, thank you very much... what you suggest would end up with one...
They will have to live with the consequences that have been imposed on them, and economic problems will fall far more heavily on them than anyone else.
Great Britain has been a successful democracy for nearly a thousand years...
It has been part of the EU for 43 years...
I think it will survive just fine on its own, it IS the world's 6th largest economy...
This, incidentally, is why I would bet on Trump winning in November, scary though that is. And things feel scary in the UK this morning.
And actually at this point, you should WANT Trump to win...
Right now the UK could use a powerful friend, and the USA is powerful indeed... Trump will take the UKs side over the EU, where as Hillary will do the reverse (and has already said so)...