What about refugee camps being shelled and rocketed? Because they harbored, or were suspected of harboring, terrorists. "The only terror and the only terrorists here are Arabs" - this also sounds like propaganda, because it paints one side as perfect. So the Israeli security forces, and the Mossad, they're perfect? Because they are carrying out the Will of God? You know, from an early age, I admired the Israelis - brave men and "sabras", standing together to defend their new nation against the treacherous arab hordes. It took decades for all my rationalizations to wear out.
The Seattle Times quotes the CEO of the engineering firm that designed the towers, that 1 hr of burning jet fuel exceeded design specs of support beams, they buckle, impacted floor collapses, followed by chain reaction.
Interview at:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworl d/ 134340502_engineer12m.html
Graphic version:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-wor ld/terrorism/collapse_12.html
Sure. And bin Laden comes from a wealthy Saudi Arabian family, in the construction business. His own money, his donors' money, it's all oil money. But it's not just American - Japan is the biggest consumer of ME oil these days. And along the same lines, think there are any Stinger missiles left in Afghanistan? When I was a kid... we didn't fight so many wars with people we had previously financed and armed.
Y'know, those "tapeworm into the bowels of an animal" metaphors make you sound like a mouthpiece for some propaganda writer - whether it is an accurate metaphor or not. Do you see why? It's designed to produce an instinctive revulsion, for the situation and for the Israelis (the tapeworm), and to associate the American government to a dumb animal. When metaphors illuminate, they're useful, but I avoid people who try to manipulate my emotions. I think Americans would long ago have become sympathetic to the Palestinians, except that the Palestinians always figure out how to do something that makes them look like murderous criminals.
You misunderstand - he's talking about *explanation* not excuse. Excuse is a moral/legal concept, when we get to national security, we need to forget that and think cause / effect. Sure the perps are culpable. Duh. But it's stupid not to try and understand your enemy. How can you fight an enemy you don't understand? It's especially stupid not to even think about how you might have *created* your enemy.
Hey Anonymous, nice try. So far, none of the brains in this thread seem to grasp the difference between an excuse and an explanation. An excuse is a moral/legal reason why something is "ok to do". An explanation is why something happens. They are totally different domains. The legal system concerns itself with the former, but National Security doesn't care - it needs to function on a cause/effect basis.
I have two problems with what you say.
First, your argument does not depend on the particulars of US actions in the Middle East, so it seems to justify *any* action the US government takes, however evil or misguided. I'm not a citizen of that US and will never willingly be one.
2. Suppose these terrorists had known *in advance* that they would be tracked down and executed by the US. Would they still have done it? Hmm - let's think... So you're going to punish them by subjecting them to *one of their own accepted mission parameters*. Scary. That should really deter them next time. I think to punish these people you have to hurt what they value most - and that certainly isn't their lives.
You haven't read their stuff - you've got it backwards:
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
Getting killed will (a) reward them and (b) inspire the survivors. If you think that's crazy, think about Pearl Harbor: How do we think of those who died? How did it affect the surviving Americans?
Well, nobody in the US seems to like hearing that, I'm sad to say. I have to say, the Palestinians are the only people on Earth who make the Irish look clever in the public relations department. Every time they have a perfect case for being victims (Americans love to help victims) they do something that converts them instantly, in every American mind, into "murderous criminals".
Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!
on
Our New Pearl Harbor
·
· Score: 1
You know, the thing about a war is - you have to have another country. We just don't have one here, and we might never. And our military is unprepared to fight a religion, or a movement, or any well-funded highly-motivated group. Can you name a succesful "war" against such? How was it fought exactly? And do all defeated groups react the same as the Japanese? I know you want a good war, crypto! Did you see Three Kings?
Bless you sigwinch, and elmegil, and all the/. folks I find on here actually thinking. We need to find a way to punish the actual attackers. If they are e.g. bin Laden, then killing them basically helps them. Read their stuff, you'll see. I propose that we act as strongly as possible against their *goals*, so that their cost/benefit ratio makes them look like their own worst enemies. If their goals are to end our support for Israel, help the Palestinians, and get the US out of Saudi Arabia - then we should (a) send our tax refund to the Israelis, (b) tell the Israelis "do whatever you want", and (c) double our presence in Saudi Arabia. Then publicize that this will happen, double, with the next such attack. The rule is: Hurt us, hurt your cause. That's what they care about - not *themselves* - they care about their *cause*.
Following a little bit of/. tradition, you can read bin Laden's words here:
(Jihad against Americans - 1998)
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
and "Declaration of War" 1996
http://azzam.com/html/articlesdeclaration.htm
He quotes scripture nearly every paragraph. This will be a watershed for Muslims everywhere, I think.
I want to point out, that *if* this was the act of Islamic Fundamentalists, killing them adds to their benefit. I want to punish them, but you need to understand that killing these people, and their friends, and their families - simply guarantees them all a golden place at the side of Allah. Possibly not an effective punishment.
Slashdot Mirror
tweedlebait - thanks for the great survey, and for ++ S/N(/.) I'm saving it - no, I think I'll print it out...
What about refugee camps being shelled and rocketed? Because they harbored, or were suspected of harboring, terrorists. "The only terror and the only terrorists here are Arabs" - this also sounds like propaganda, because it paints one side as perfect. So the Israeli security forces, and the Mossad, they're perfect? Because they are carrying out the Will of God? You know, from an early age, I admired the Israelis - brave men and "sabras", standing together to defend their new nation against the treacherous arab hordes. It took decades for all my rationalizations to wear out.
The Seattle Times quotes the CEO of the engineering firm that designed the towers, that 1 hr of burning jet fuel exceeded design specs of support beams, they buckle, impacted floor collapses, followed by chain reaction.l d/ 134340502_engineer12m.html
r ld /terrorism/collapse_12.html
Interview at:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationwor
Graphic version:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-wo
Sure. And bin Laden comes from a wealthy Saudi Arabian family, in the construction business. His own money, his donors' money, it's all oil money. But it's not just American - Japan is the biggest consumer of ME oil these days. And along the same lines, think there are any Stinger missiles left in Afghanistan? When I was a kid... we didn't fight so many wars with people we had previously financed and armed.
Y'know, those "tapeworm into the bowels of an animal" metaphors make you sound like a mouthpiece for some propaganda writer - whether it is an accurate metaphor or not. Do you see why? It's designed to produce an instinctive revulsion, for the situation and for the Israelis (the tapeworm), and to associate the American government to a dumb animal. When metaphors illuminate, they're useful, but I avoid people who try to manipulate my emotions. I think Americans would long ago have become sympathetic to the Palestinians, except that the Palestinians always figure out how to do something that makes them look like murderous criminals.
You misunderstand - he's talking about *explanation* not excuse. Excuse is a moral/legal concept, when we get to national security, we need to forget that and think cause / effect. Sure the perps are culpable. Duh. But it's stupid not to try and understand your enemy. How can you fight an enemy you don't understand? It's especially stupid not to even think about how you might have *created* your enemy.
Hey Anonymous, nice try. So far, none of the brains in this thread seem to grasp the difference between an excuse and an explanation. An excuse is a moral/legal reason why something is "ok to do". An explanation is why something happens. They are totally different domains. The legal system concerns itself with the former, but National Security doesn't care - it needs to function on a cause/effect basis.
I have two problems with what you say.
First, your argument does not depend on the particulars of US actions in the Middle East, so it seems to justify *any* action the US government takes, however evil or misguided. I'm not a citizen of that US and will never willingly be one.
2. Suppose these terrorists had known *in advance* that they would be tracked down and executed by the US. Would they still have done it? Hmm - let's think... So you're going to punish them by subjecting them to *one of their own accepted mission parameters*. Scary. That should really deter them next time. I think to punish these people you have to hurt what they value most - and that certainly isn't their lives.
We don't care if it's a troll, we just need a thread to talk in.
You haven't read their stuff - you've got it backwards:
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
Getting killed will (a) reward them and (b) inspire the survivors. If you think that's crazy, think about Pearl Harbor: How do we think of those who died? How did it affect the surviving Americans?
Well, nobody in the US seems to like hearing that, I'm sad to say. I have to say, the Palestinians are the only people on Earth who make the Irish look clever in the public relations department. Every time they have a perfect case for being victims (Americans love to help victims) they do something that converts them instantly, in every American mind, into "murderous criminals".
You know, the thing about a war is - you have to have another country. We just don't have one here, and we might never. And our military is unprepared to fight a religion, or a movement, or any well-funded highly-motivated group. Can you name a succesful "war" against such? How was it fought exactly? And do all defeated groups react the same as the Japanese? I know you want a good war, crypto! Did you see Three Kings?
Bless you sigwinch, and elmegil, and all the /. folks I find on here actually thinking. We need to find a way to punish the actual attackers. If they are e.g. bin Laden, then killing them basically helps them. Read their stuff, you'll see. I propose that we act as strongly as possible against their *goals*, so that their cost/benefit ratio makes them look like their own worst enemies. If their goals are to end our support for Israel, help the Palestinians, and get the US out of Saudi Arabia - then we should (a) send our tax refund to the Israelis, (b) tell the Israelis "do whatever you want", and (c) double our presence in Saudi Arabia. Then publicize that this will happen, double, with the next such attack. The rule is: Hurt us, hurt your cause. That's what they care about - not *themselves* - they care about their *cause*.
Following a little bit of /. tradition, you can read bin Laden's words here:
(Jihad against Americans - 1998)
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
and "Declaration of War" 1996
http://azzam.com/html/articlesdeclaration.htm
He quotes scripture nearly every paragraph. This will be a watershed for Muslims everywhere, I think.
I want to point out, that *if* this was the act of Islamic Fundamentalists, killing them adds to their benefit. I want to punish them, but you need to understand that killing these people, and their friends, and their families - simply guarantees them all a golden place at the side of Allah. Possibly not an effective punishment.