Our New Pearl Harbor

Weehauken, N.J. -- It's almost impossible to reconcile the cool, clear, cloudless day with the scene across the water. There are no World Trade Centers, and up above the giant white clouds steaming from the spot where they used to be, pairs of F-15's circle over Manhattan, around and around the encircled island. Along the closed entrances and highways into the city, ambulances, fire engines and police cars line up for miles waiting to take the thousands of casualties out of New York City and all over the Northeast. At the blood bank in Paramus where I tried to give blood, there were five-hour lines, and the police turned us away.Reporters break down on the air and sob. At the closed-down bridges and tunnels, people stand alongside their cars by the score, staring and crying. I keep calling the cell of one of my closest friends, who went to work inside the Towers at 8:30, and kept getting his voice-mail, until 11:00 a.m., when a recording said his phone was no longer in service. All around New York City, psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal with kids whose parents aren't coming home. It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information.

Eerily, the scene invokes disaster movies -- a number of which have actually shown the World Trade Center towers being blown up. Staring across the harbor on this gorgeous day, it takes a few seconds to realize that this isn't the evocation of something new and horrible, but the real thing, our own Pearl Harbor, perhaps even worse, since it struck us closer to home and reminded us all how technology can bring us all nose-to-nose with war in seconds, and there are no real barriers between people willing to use it in evil ways and us. Technology allows us to see the building collapse before the reporters even know what has happened. We have to try and make sense of it ourselves.

The silence is stunning, unprecedented for mid-morning, mid-week anywhere near Manhattan island. Everyone is in shock. Stories, malls, business are closing, their workers crying, distracted, unsure of how to behave.

Technology turns planes into weapons. It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories.

We are both shocked and oddly prepared. Sci-fi and other forms of popular culture have been preparing us for this kind of Techno-Armageddon for years. Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people. We've never seen anything like it, yet in a strange way we have thought of it for years.

Standing over the harbor, I did something I haven't done in 20 years. I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed. I have a bunch of friends in somewhere in that Techno-Armageddon, and just wanted to post these thoughts. If anybody wants to post their own, hopefully here's a good place.

Comments

fp - mev

[Anonymous Coward]

Prayers go out to the world, let mourn and then find out who did this.

MEV

Re:fp - mev

[pivko]

From Prague Czech Republic, far away from these horrible incidents, I would like to join all of you who are mourning the victims of these acts of terrorism. I hope all of the terrorists are captured and brought to justice. However, I would like to warn all the people that are now in deep emotional shock from taking unjust acts of revenge which might result to much more innocent victims. I know that there are many voices which are talking of war again yet not clear enemy. I understand that but I would like to recall that the western world is, despite such terrible actions, stil based on fundamental human rights and liberty. All the democratic nations must fight agains an international terrorism which has today shown its new, disgusting face. But such things should not make us animals.

Re:fp - mev

[uglyduckling]

I would join you in that. Here in Sheffield, UK, our Church met together to pray tonight. Truly the World is watching and there really is no other response than to turn to God.

Re:fp - mev

[xmedar]

there really is no other response than to turn to God

Sorry to be the one to point this out, but it maybe that those responsible did it in the name of a God, I would urge everyone to turn to each other, himan being to human being and not to some deity that they use to elevate themselves above others.

Re:fp - mev

[billn]

I'm writing this response from a desk within the NOC of the Networld+Interop show in Atlanta, GA.
On opening day of what is still a very popular (and large) trade show, attendance was shockingly, and understandably, low. The CNN building directly across the street stood empty, evacuated against the remote possibility that it might be a target.

Streaming media products were quickly retooled and retasked. Clusters of stunned attendees and staff gathered around state-of-the-art flat panels and projection screens as today's events progressed. The 2x4 edge-to-edge video wall within the NOC has been displaying streaming media and television all day, workstation monitors spun to face outward so passerby's can have other places to view.

By 1 pm, Interop team volunteers were paired with Event staff to canvass the show floors to advise exhibitors that we'd be closing the show floor early to allow people to depart where possible. In between, people are emailing, messaging, calling, checking on loved ones. As I write this, Interop team members are still clustered within the I-Labs area, watching live newsfeeds streamed over the grid.

The shock of the incident is incredible. This is the kind of tragedy you see in movies and pray never happens. During one of a couple meetings today, someone present for the Oklahoma City bombing brought up a powerful notion: The victims of these tragedies, and the people they leave behind, need to know there is support for them, that people care. I consider myself to be a fairly thick skinned individual, and this event has struck me to the core.

We, as a chorus, are the voice of the world. Take the time to show your support. Resist the kneejerk response to lash out in anger. Even more, demolish the impulse to turn this into a laughing matter.

Allow me a brief moment to express some outrage: Within hours of the initial incident, the remains of the WTC were placed for auction on eBay. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. I'm sure some people still think it's funny. I hope those of you who do mention it in mixed company, and have to face down the family member of a victim of today's incredible tragedy.

Re:fp - mev

[connorbd]

People, turn to whoever you wish to turn to. I choose both God and man myself, but the point is to find support where you can get it.

/Brian

Re:fp - mev

[Anonymous Coward]

the remains of the WTC were placed for auction on eBay.

Thanks for letting everyone know, asshole. Now ever fool on /. will be driving the prices up.

Re:fp - mev

[_xen]

here here!

Re:fp - mev

[billn]

Sticks and stones, etc. People need to understand that some things aren't funny. Death is one of them. On an oddly just note, if Slashdot readers drive the price up, what happens when the auction closes?

From Ebay's Help section:
If you get no responses through email, you can request your seller's phone number. After a reasonable amount of time, if you are still unable to contact the seller via email or phone, you can leave appropriate feedback to alert other bidders about your experience.

I am not a lawyer, but is the seller liable for fraud, by presenting themselves as the actual owner of the properties by placing it up for sale?
If the information they entered for the eBay account is fake, what actions are available to pursue the user, as he's just engaged eBay as the medium for fraudulent activities?

I understand that some people need to make jokes to handle serious issues. Conversely, those people need to learn, as I have, when and where to draw the line.

What repercussions

[MxTxL]

In the wake of this tragedy, I think we need to examine the repercussions.

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.

This is bull-shit. When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good. Since that time, DEA agents have led charmed lives. In many cases DEA agents are in peril, but only live because the Druggies know better than to touch a DEA agent for the repercussions. In the same light, it is clear to me and should be to everyone else that a serious strike against ALL possible/suspected terrorist organizations will send a similar message.

I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the effect on one city. In real life, with todays terrorist attacks, most state universities were shut down, many, many businesses all over the nation are closed. Lots of people will begin to live in fear.

This is, of course, what the terrorists want. When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country. We must strike back at these and all terrorists. We must send a message to this sick and twisted community that the US will not stand for this.

Beyond whatever reprisals the President decides to launch. I think we will begin to see some other serious repercussions. Do you think air travel will be the same? I thought it was very strict as it was. We may have to submit to cavity searches before too long.

Here's an interesting issue and one that is well to debate on Slashdot. It is said on just about all the major news networks that there has been an intelligence breakdown. That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists. Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this? Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

I don't know if we should put up with a greater intelligence presence. I know that is what we will experience. That is pretty clear. But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear, and we must make these sons-of-bitches PAY for what they've done to assure that they can never do it again.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

i do believe you got your retaliation in first

Re:What repercussions

[halftrack]

The american people will cry out for revenge, but you should calm down before striking whoever responsible. Revenging - you must remember - is hard. Traditionally, revenge leads to someone revenging the revenge, unless the revenge is targeted with high political and practical accuracy. Remember, a missil can't tell Bush from e.g. BinLaden. In addition the pressision is not high enough to avoid hitting civilians. If civilians is hit the governmet controlled media in the target country can:

1. condemn the action agains WTC and the Pentagon, thus condemning the attack on their country.
2. using their government controlled media to make the people - even those personally neutral to the US - condemn the US, thus making new terrorist killing more people.

I would like to urge the American people to look for other solutions, silent actions. For instance they can through heavy intelligence - which will be conducted - locate and arrest the people responsible. A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.

Two bonuses will also be given by doing it this way:
1. you are sertain the people responsible are caught, not just presumingly dead.
2. the country housing the terrorist would be put in an - for them - unbeneficial position giving the western countries a good way to excess political pressure on them with a small, but larger than normal effect.

People of america: let the your government know what you belive is right!!

(This is a repost from a previous discussion, but it was to important.)

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

Sorry bud, but all a paroxym of destruction will bring is more of the same. If decisive but massive killing actually stopped the other side, Israel would be as peaceful as Omaha by now.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Martial Law, my friend.

K

Re:What repercussions

[JokerBoy3]

I agree 100%. In addition, I think it is important that the US immediately destroy all three of the Islamic holy sites. This refers to the one in Mecca, the dome of the rock (which is in Jerusalem), and I forget where the other one is.

The point, is these people need to understand that we are not going to tolerate this. These idiots only care about their religion. Fine. We'll destroy their holy sites.

Re:What repercussions

[jazman_777]

Here's an alternative viewpoint: we are in the same boat as Israel now. Interesting article elaborating on this is here (Antiwar.com). Just blasting everybody will spawn more hatred of the US, because we do a pretty lousy job of limiting collateral damage. Witness the moonscape that used to be Iraq.

Re:What repercussions

[libertynews]

That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists

This isn't nesicarily true, cell based organizations, if they are smart, will avoid anything but direct communications.

To answer your other question. No. I will not give up any of my liberties. The world is an unsafe place, we must accept the risks that come with being a free nation. If we do not then the experiment is over. Jerry Pournelle thinks that this is the end of the Republic and the move to an Empire. See www.jerrypournelle.com for more of his thoughts. See www.libertynews.org for discussions and news.

Re:What repercussions

[zuqif]

Todays events are unprecedented, and I can't see what you're attempting by drawing comparisons with
- movies
- previous dea events

I can't imagine how to even approach the hammer blow that must fall in retaliation, but I think we're all praying for something broader, bigger & more considered than that which you're suggesting.

My question wrt repercussions is how this will knock onto civil-liberties in the traditional (non-tech) sense.

fwiw, I'm not American, but my thoughts will remain with you all.

Re:What repercussions

[jrennie]

It's sick to believe that violence is the right retaliation. Violence begets violence. We don't want this to escalate into a war. Blowing the shit out of the people who we believe to be the cause of this tragedy will only add fuel to the fire: others with similar views will only hate the U.S. more. Instead of one small radical group, we might see small governments trying to launch terrorist attacks against the U.S. No matter how enraged we are about these attacks, we're not going to fix anything by sending missles to the middle east.

Jason

Re:What repercussions

[aspillai]

Of course repercussions are necessary. The question is what do we do? Do you think sending missiles to suspected rouge nations is a good idea? You claim that you need to protect democracy and the American way of life. Well, in your example you site the DEA. They were not democratic. Would you stand by your convictions if you were the one being imprisioned or worse yet killed based on suspecions? This reminds me of China or the Spanish Inquisition or any number of other undemocratic acts.

So, what should be done? There are black boxes on those planes, if they survived. There must be intelligence reports from the CIA and other national security agencies. Two weeks or more to piece together what exactly happened, who was responsible and how they were able to do this without triggers being tripped everywhere. Then suitable punishment - if it's an act of war, then it must be. This is how America got involved with WW2 is it not.

But to suggest that we just blindly give up our democratic freedom is to give these terrorists precisely what they want. I for one am not willing to do that. I'm all for deadly repercussions, but they need to be well thought out and well executed.

Re:What repercussions

[ethereal]

When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good.

...I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the effect on one city.

You must not have seen the rest of the movie [spoiler alert] - the whole point of it was that if you kick in doors everywhere, if you give up on the rule of law just because some degenerates refuse to live within it, if you allow some nut cases to goad you into creating the very environment of reprisal that they thrive on, you've given your enemy exactly what they want. The moral of The Siege was that even in times of crisis, tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is the wrong thing to do, no matter how inspired towards ass-kicking we may be right now. Of course you leave potential terrorists living in fear, but at the expense of leaving everyone living in fear as well. In the long run, a civil society cannot continue along that path.

I think the jury's still out on the intelligence angle, although the three-letter-agencies will have you believe otherwise. For all we know, what was lacking to prevent this tragedy was not Carnivore interdiction, but just a little more attention on the part of an airline gate agent in Boston or Newark. I would think that any terrorists capable of planning this action would be smart enough to not use any public or semi-public communications medium which might have a chance of being tapped. Don't believe anything you hear on this topic for the next couple of weeks, until we can really begin to get to the bottom of it.

Yes, we need to change some things and prevent the reoccurrence of this kind of attack. But equally importantly we need to not allow terrorism to transform society into a warped vision of the very groups that hate us, just because of our fear and uncertainty. Democracy can triumph over terror, if only its own citizens give it the chance.

Re:What repercussions

[Molf]

And I think that you are a fucking cunt and should have your family hunted down and shot, but you don't see me doing it. Why? Because attacking innocent civilians simply because you disagree with them, is *wrong*. There have been American terrorists in the past. Should every other nation in the world attack all of the landmarks in the US because of this? Wait a minute...
The point is, you're thinking like a terrorist.

Re:What repercussions

[t0sher]

Firstly, I totally give out my heart to everyone affected by this. I've sat watching the TV all day in horror.

One question (not trolling) I wonder what knowledge the US powers had on a possible strike this week? Granted, they wouldn't be able to do much about someone on a plane with a death wish, but I heard an interview with someone at Janes who suspected a hit this week.... maybe its just hearsay?

Carnivore isn't anything to get worried about, in fact i've heard its pretty useless. Try getting hold of the summer copy of 2600 magazine (http://www.2600.com) because there is a good article on the system there, showing it would be next to useless to try to gain intelligence on terrorist acts. For example, unless a court order is granted they can only snoop To: and From: info. You might want to check out http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/foia_documen ts.html.

Aside, as my comments probably got buried in the other stories, I totally agree with people trying to calm down the reactionist (although understandable) mood around here. Attacking all known terrorist locations will kill many more innocent people, prehaps for nothing. Then you are no better than the terrorists, only with a false badge of legitimacy pinned to your chests.

As I said before though, I completely understand the feelings here. Its purely awful and evil. Just don't become hypocrites. And the people that are going around saying "bash the dot headers" etc make me SICK.

Thanks for your time. I hope you don't consider me trolling.

Re:What repercussions

[j_d]

won't you be embarassed when it turns out to be a bunch of disgruntled pilots.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

Why weren't you out bombing Churches and Bethlehem when pro-life radicals were shooting doctors?

Get a grip and realize that Islam is not about terrorism, only certain radicals who claim to be "the real Islam" are. Just like similar radicals of other religions.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

if this is responded to with a reign of voilence on all suspected nations then the only thing that will separate the US from terrorists is that the US have a country to stand behind them. im not condoning today's events but 2 wrong do not make a right no matter how extreme the situation.

Re:What repercussions

[Toshio]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.

OK, here's the short checklist (in no particular order) on "Who do we bomb today?"

• Palestina
  for being a mess in the first place
• Izrael
  for the possibility that they want to escalate the war
• Syria
  for being general trublemakers and helping Palestinians
• Iraq
  for maybe Saddam did it
• Lybia
  for Ghaddafi was in the plane business before
• Japan
  for being general pain in the ass from WW2
• Vietnam
  for someone just might not like the fact you killed his father
• Kambodia
  for the same reason as Vietnam
• Somalia
  for killing U.S. Marines over there
• Iran
  for if they didn't like your shah, they didn't liked you
• Afganistan
  for being in fundamentaly wrong religion
• Yugoslavia/Serbia
  for threatening before and after the strikes you did there
• Albania
  for being troublemakers in the two wars so far
• Germany
  for demanding apology for bombing of their cities during WW2
• Ireland
  since US didn't help them get rid of Brits
• U.K.
  opposite from Ireland
• North Korea
  for if they don't listen to our orders, they're capable of everything
• Russia
  for they might just be proving what piece of crap NMD is
• Bosnia and Herzegovina
  for they might still resent you not helping them 1992-1995
• United States of America
  for knowingly allowing extremist groups to exist and thrive
• Canada
  for someone over there might think you want them as a next federal state (and they're still with them Brits
• P.R. of China
  for clearly opposing trading with renegade Taiwan R.O.C
• Every other 1st world country
  for not locking up all suspected anti-globalisation activists
• Every other 3rd world country
  for probably housing terrorist and generaly disliking USA

Did I miss someone?

Re:What repercussions

[Kryptonomic]

destroy all three of the Islamic holy sites.

That's like saying "destroy all Christian holy sites" after what Tim McVeigh did. Based on your comment you are exactly the kind of person all terrorists are: a hothead with a tendency towards violent knee-jerk reactions and intolerance towards cultures, habits and religions you don't understand.

Islam can be used to justify this horrific act of terrorism just as well as Christianity can be used to justify the "religious" violence in the Northern Ireland (a large part of which is being funded by Irish Americans, by the way).

You've never been outside the U.S.A., have you?

Re:What repercussions

[wrinkledshirt]

Lots of people will begin to live in fear.

This is, of course, what the terrorists want.

Don't be naive. There is a reason that the United States isn't a popular nation worldwide. Some group will likely claim responsibility for this, and when they do, you can bet that this was about retribution.

My heart breaks for the people killed in these attacks, but please don't rush to stupid conclusions about what must be done in the emotional rush of the moment. Any rampant retalliatory acts the U.S. government engages in will likely be revisited upon its citizens, in much the same manner as what happened today.

People are already saying that this was an act of war. You've got to understand that many nations feel that they've been at war with the U.S. long before this first strike back.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

Ah, the "genocide is the answer" solution. Good choice, lots of moral ground to stand on there.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

"Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this? Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives? "

Why stop there? Let's ban people from owning guns!
Then no one will get shot!

This is all non-sense. No matter how tough we make our security, someone will break it. As others have stated, we need a better foriegn policy.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds like just about the worst idea in dealing with this situation. More loss of life will result, and perhaps even a retaliation against our own retaliation. Even worse, we would be hurting suspects, most of whom probably have nothing to do with this. Guilty before proven innocent? No thanks. If we were going to get a message across using "a battery of cruise missiles" we should have done it before, and certainly not as a result of these attacks. However, especially because of these attacks we must reevaluate our situation and present a calm, and well thought plan to prevent future attacks from happening. We cannot simply copy the tactics of whoever did this.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

there wouldn't be a Palestinian alive...let them [Israel] do what is necessary.

Which is... genocide??

Yeah, one way of "winning" a war is to completely eradicate your enemy. Men, women, children and the unborn all alike. If you don't, there will be someone left with even more an intense hatred of you and who will come after you and your children one day.

Re:What repercussions

[ramrod]

>>We must send a message to this sick and twisted community that the US will not stand for this. (MxTxL)
I would to say "We must send a message to this sick and twisted community that Mankind will not stand for this."

Re:What repercussions

[halftrack]

So you're saying kill all arabs?

When Palestinian terrorists are killed more Palestinians are pissed off and becomes terrorists. This ends with all Palestinians being killed. Then - or a little earlier - the arab countries would be - more - pissed off on Israel. This would lead to a war killing either all arabs or all Israelians.

If peace worked that way, peace would be equal to total anahilation. No humans.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummmm... lets see - US BIG, Middle East Small. Middle East a smoking crater. Problem solved.

Re:What repercussions

[chabotc]

I am gonna post something that is gonna be very unpopulair i am sure, but still i am puzzled.

You state in your email your shock at the loss of life, and the loss of freedom.

Yet your way to solve this is to take more human lives (launch missles at every one suspected), and take away the freedom of everyone suspected.

In no way can i rime these two arguments. Yes this is the worst thing i have seen on CNN ..ever? (i am not up close, i admit). However wasnt it the american founding fathers who said that freedom goes above all differences? This also means respecting the freedom of others.

I accept that you feel the guilty need to be delt with, however shooting the world @ random won't make the situation any better. You would betray the very thing you fight for. Justice and Freedom.

Also, don't forget before you claim the world will not be the same, that palastinians, people in ireland, south afrika, etc have suffered the same faith. Next time they are in the news, think back of this moment. This might be a unique opertunity to cherish freedom, not only for americans, but for humans.

Re:What repercussions

[TastyWheat]

So you think that the DEA going out and killing innocent people was a just cause for the death of some retard dea agent? Then I can understand that you would kill innocents who had nothing to do with what happened today just for your own sick blood lust. You are just as bad as the terrosts. People like you should be round up and shot maybe.

Re:What repercussions

[AlainR]

I wonder : what known suspected or rumored terrorist person or country would you have bombed for Oklahoma city, without waiting until you are sure?

Re:What repercussions

[BMIComp]

It's not that we can't find the terrorists, the problem is that they are working individually, not together.

Reffering back to the movie "The siege", they kept mentioning independant terrorist cells. If one cell is caught, the other cells are not affected. That is why, just like in the seige, it is so hard to track these people down. There is not always a heirarchy in these type of organizations. It was easy for the government to infiltrate the mafia, because this is organization has a very well defined chain of command, which makes it much easier to tap their conversations and to find out what is going on.

The truth is, we are fighting an invisible enemy. That is why, like in the movie the siege, it will be difficult to retaliate; it is hard to retaliate against an enemy which is unknown. So, it would not be prudent to start attacking arbitray countries and incite WWIII.

P.S. If we start attacking "every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world", there wouldn't be much left.

Re:What repercussions

[mellon]

If there was some way that giving up strong encryption would save tens of thousands of lives, I would be willing to do it.

Unfortunately, me giving up strong encryption doesn't cause others to give it up. The only thing we can give up that can possibly reduce the amount of terrorism in the world is the idea that it's okay to kill, steal, and bully. It would be awfully nice, as an American citizen, if I could say "we never do things like this - our hands are clean." :'(

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

Ah, the "genocide is the answer" solution

When someone else has sworn to kill you, sitting around and trying to be nice is stupid. Kill them first. Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques? Imagine a TV show for children which told kids how sweet the blood of the infidels smells. Or, if you'd like, move to the West Bank and watch it yourself.

They started the fight. It's time to end it.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

So what are you suggesting? Turn the other cheek? While eliminating various terrorist targets (HOPEFULLY the ones responsible) won't ensure our safety, it will make it clear to everyone that there is a price to pay for inflicting violence on our country.

I agree, though, that retaliation needs to be done with precision and accuracy. Find the organization(s) responsible for these attacks and destroy them completely. Make it clear that an act like this committed by any group will result in that group's total annihalation. Simply launching various attacks as an act of symbolic revenge may make us FEEL good, but it won't have an effective result.

More importantly this is a wakeup call of how lax the so-called security in this country is. While I have no desire to have my privacy invaded, etc., it's frightening how easy it is for a group of people to commit such large-scale violence in such a small amount of time.

Re:What repercussions

[Arachnid GNU]

Umm.. why is it such a bad idea to ban guns? If it's illegal to have a gun, it's very simple to get them off the streets if you see 'em.

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

What would you do if someone were holding a gun at your head? If you had the opportunity, would you shoot them first, or would you wait to hear his point of view, apologize for making them angry at you, say you're sorry for making them so mad that they would hold a gun at your head?

The fact of the matter is that in some cases you have to fight fire with fire.

Because attacking innocent civilians simply because you disagree with them, is *wrong*.

Those are your words, not mine. Were all 50 THOUSAND of the people in the WTC or were they not, innocent civilians? Yes, it is wrong to kill innocent civilians because you disagree with them. It is *NOT* wrong to kill hostile terrorists who have killed your countrymen.

You, my friend, are the fucking cunt. Unless it is clear that you will not put up with this shit, you are going to have it on your plate for lunch everyday. It's just like standing up to the school yard bully. If he thinks you won't resist, he'll take your lunch money everyday. If you pop him in the nose once, and knows you will do it the next time he comes around, you will never hear from him again.

Apparently, there are about 4 terrorist organizations that are capable of hijacking 3x airliners and piloting them into major cities within 30 minutes of eachother. I don't think there is much reason to figure out which of these 4 are responsible, bomb them all. This is the only way to send the correct message.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling this was just used to make the usa look bad and it is in relation to /bin/laden. I must say I heard about this 5 minutes after it happened on irc and I was shocked. Moreso the pentagon the most secure building(or past secure) of the country was attacked. I have some images below if anyone cares thats ome friends took since most news sites are very lagged. (also some other images) www.cgisecurity.com/wtc - zeno@cgisecurity.com

Re:What repercussions

[Gen-GNU]

I believe you miss the point...It's not about making sure we get the people who did this. That is important, to be sure. The retaliation should be done in an over the top, large scale way. It should kill civilian targets.

The point is to partially to bring the current terrorists to justice. That is a small part. Doing that will not bring back our dead, but it will make us feel better. The main point, though, is to show other would be terrorists that if they attempt anything like this, not only will they be killled, but also their families, friends, etc.

The only way to stop terrorists is to have them terrified of reprocussions of their acts.

So yes, contact your government. But let them know that you understand...the enemy has chosen the terms of engagement. They have clearly said there is no distinction between military and civilian targets. We must locate the people responsible for this tragedy, and make them wish they had never done it.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Please cite historical examples of pacifistic nation-states that have survived more than, say, 100 years when not isolated.

It's easy to be peaceful when the only people around are your people. When other peoples are competing with you, however, pacifism is a great way to get your genome wiped out.

Re:What repercussions

[castro1959]

you forgot all martians who may have had buddies locked away in the pentegon. why restrict the campaign to this little planet?

Re:What repercussions

[hnc]

retaliation against the rest of the world? what a typical US-american BS! thats exactly what seeds the next terrorist assaults against the US.
remember the US embassy bombing in Sudan and the subsequent revenge attack of US forces against
a pharmaceutical factory? wow very clever reaction, perfect to help terrorist organisations help recruit further suicidal cannonfodder personnel. i dont know myself what is best to do know, but certainly not random act of counterviolence in/against small countries inhabited by non-white people.

Re:What repercussions

[twoflower]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world.

Launch missiles at suspected terrorist hangouts? What about the burden of proof?

When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes.

You're proud of this? I would be truly embarrassed if agencies of my government showed so little respect for peoples' civil rights, and ignored its own consitution.

Congratulations. You've shown you're qualified to be President.

Twoflower

Re:What repercussions

[jmdavis]

Here's the problem with your logic. The problems in SA are in SA, those here in the US are here in the US. The two are not the same.

We have freedoms guaranteed via restrictions on government (theoretically) through the Constituation and the Bill Of Rights, South Africa and your other examples do not.

Retaliation is not necessarily in out best interests. We need to protect our freedoms and when the evidence is in on the perpetrators react decisively.

Things to look out for:

Reichstag Fire Effect: It is inevitable that there will be calls from some in Congress and the FBI that more controls on citizens and more attacks on our freedom are necessary to prevent acts such as those today. Martial law is NOT the answer to protecting America.

Tangential Attacks: If these attacks are as organized as they seem, other sites worldwide may be in danger.

Re:What repercussions

[ZeroZen]

Yeah really! We're not safe from eachother. There is no permanent solution to things like this. People have been killing eachother ever since we first appeared on the planet.

People also haven't taken into consideration that it's possible americans themselves could have done something like this. No evidence one way or another! What are you going to do if it was completely internal? Some anti-capitalist group decides to take out the World Trade towers...

Re:What repercussions

[Malc]

"Do you think air travel will be the same? I thought it was very strict as it was."

As an international traveller who came and lived in the US for a couple of years, let me tell you that I've always found security at American airports a joke. You speak with the voice of American complacency that helped make today's disaster easier - it is currently far from strict compared with other countries. The best airline security that I've ever seen was when I flew El Al (sp?) to Israel in 1982.

Re:What repercussions

[wyseguy]

This cowardly act is unfortunately carried out by people who believe that the taking of innocent life is completely justified. These people, unfortunately, only understand violence. Incarcerating these people will only elevate them to "wrongly imprisoned" status and will serve encourage other terrorist attacks. We cannot negotiate with them, because they belive that we are the ones who are in need of correction. Should the United States fail to act strongly here, that will only serve to make America an even greater target for further violence. Should we kill the people who are responsible...absolutely. It is unfortunate that we would have to resort to such an action, but it is the only one that terrorists understand.

Re:What repercussions

[suavew]

Okay, I knew /. was getting bad, but how in the world did this get modded up to a '5 Insightful'? I'm hoping this is temporary. Is it insightful to base military policy on your latest favorite blockbuster? Are all /. moderators age 13 and under? Sheesh.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot. Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia, which is an ally.

Religion here is a cover for an expression of political ambitions, much like in Northern Ireland. If the combatants in Northern Ireland actually believed what their pastors preached, they wouldn't be throwing hand grenades at schoolgirls.

Re:What repercussions

[davinci27]

I agree that finding the groups responsible is an important task for the days to come, but I don't feel I, or the American people, would be satisfied with a trial and conviction.

This is a horrific situation. Our society is going to want more than jail time and electric chairs. People are going to want those responsible to suffer burns, suffocation and other atrocities similar to those suffered by the innocents.

God may take vengeance, but people need it.

Re:What repercussions

[seann]

you forgot quebec.
They don't consider themself part of canada.

france..

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

We've heard this rhetoric before. And not once a screenshot, a transcript, a schedule showing how frequently this happens in reality, as opposed to the minds of those who want to justify their killing. Prove me wrong.

Re:What repercussions

[deathscythe257]

'That's like saying "destroy all Christian holy sites" '

If you have been watching coverage you would see that many of these muslim/islamic countries have been rejoicing at the fact that the "U.S. Opression" is being ended. All of these countries hate americans and would do anything to destroy us. while it is true that these people are radicals much like Timothy McVeigh, it is also necessary to note that people of the islamic faith are much more prone to resort to violence if it has to do with their Jihaad. They believe that dieing in a holy war is the best way to get into heaven. They also see anyone who is not islamic as the enemy.

They may say, "We don't promote the killing of innocent people," but to them, we civilians who are not muslim are the enemy and are not innocent.

I do not agree with systematic wiping out of certain peoples, but the people who did this(and we don't actually have complete proof that it were the palestinians or whoever) need to be hit in their most important areas. This being their governmental buildings and their places of worship. The church acts as a military for these people, as the Catholic church once has.

I have been outside the U.S.- people hate us. People would like to see our country burnt to the ground, our men killed, our children afraid and hiding in caves, and our women raped.

It is a simple fact to these people and a doctrine of Islam that if you die in a holy war, Allah will praise you in heaven. If anything we would be doing these people a favor... especially if they then realize that their dogmatic and unquestioned beliefs in a deity(I speak of most all religions now) whose sole purpose is to create an iron like grasp on the people of the world. Religions love power- let's give 'em all we've got.

Re:What repercussions

[gotan]

Do you really think, that more death, especially the death of innocents, will make anyone better about this? What you propose, hitting "suspected terrorist hangouts", regardless of who really launched this terrorist attacks, and regardless of civillians who might reside at or near those "terrorist hangouts" will only escalate the already horrendous situation.

On the contrary, the USA should seek active help from the countries where they suspect the origin of these attacks. Which country could deny that? The whole world is in shock about the events, and even terroristic organisations where quick in distancing themselves from this. The aim must be, to uncover who is responsible for this, to get worldwide support against terrorism, not to strike blindly at places all around the world, and just provoke revenge for (maybe unjustified) revenge.

The "issue", that more power to intelligence agencies to spy on US-citicens might have prevented this is simply unfounded. With all the possibilities they already have they didn't prevent anything from happening. And you don't even know if internet, phone, or encryption played a role in the event anyways. I wouldn't be so quick about giving up privacy on the unlikely chance, that that will help against well organized terrorists who wont be affected by anti-encryption laws anyway.

I also think you should reconsider that Franklin quote. Read "liberty" as "liberty to protect my privacy and to free speech", and "safety" as "safety from terrorist attacks coordinated over phone/internet" (which i consider very little indeed) and there you are.

Re:What repercussions

[NoOneInParticular]

Sudan: for the preemptive bombing

Colombia: for the 'war on drugs',

Panama: invasion

Grenada: invasion

Re:What repercussions

[BoneFlower]

About liberty vs security- we must accept some restrictions on our freedoms for the vital ones to flourish. For example, for our freedom of speech to make a difference, violent acts against ones person must be banned. The question is, where do we balance this?

Also, the intelligence community MUST be given a free enough hand to investigate leads and research potential threats. Greater cooperation between our national inteligence agencies such as the CIA, NRO, NSA, etc. and the civilian law enforcement could facilitate more and faster data sharing which could detect these attacks soon enough to stop them. Right now the foreign intelligence community of the United States is severely restricted on collecting intelligence inside US borders, and can't at all if there is no apparent foreign connection. US Intelligence needs not just more money but looser guidelines on what we can do.

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

You're just not looking. Luckily, MEMRI (http://www.memri.org) has made it easy.

Here's a nice Friday Sermon:

http://www.memri.org/sd/SP25201.html

It's title? "Blessings to whoever saved a bullet to stick it in a Jew's head."

You're just unwilling to belive that there may in fact be evil people in the world, worthy of extermination. Maybe if it was your family in the WTC or in Jerusalem, you'd change your mind.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[Picass0]

It has been pointed out that the trial of one of Bin Lauden's men was to begin tomorrow in NYC. This trial would represent a the "more satisfying and peaceful solution" you speak of, Halftrack. And guess what? The thugs who did this only understand the language of violence.

When the US finds who did this, a graphic and public example needs to be set for all those who would choose to follow .

So, as an American to you I will say it's alot easier to preach peace when it's not your country.

Re:What repercussions

[penthouseplayah]

Well we need not go all the way back to the Spanish Inquisition or over the Pacific to China, just think of the imprisonment of the Japanese-Americans during WW2.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Taken from the BBC news site , a quote:

"The Bush administration came to town saying it did not need anybody else on earth. In a most gruesome fashion the rock has come through the window."
I WHOLE heartedly agree with this.

On a different tangent, the "news and media" in this country have completely brainwashed most people and telling them only A) What they want to hear and B) What they are told we should be allowed to hear. Is it as bad as some "state run" news agencies from around the world? No, but it could be a lot more open. I think it's something that says what our society wants to hear. For the most part, Americans could care less about what is going on the rest of the world. So, you don't hear
about a lot of things that the US does (No, I can't think of details right now) which most people would be appalled at. Are the sanctified in the name of government security? Maybe...but it still means that people don't like us.

Re:What repercussions

[Molf]

Perhaps I'm in a minority of one, but I would not shoot first.
As for the innocent civilians in the WTC, that is the *point*. There is a disturbing parallel here. Revenge is *always* *wrong*. Justice is not killing anyone who may have connections to those resonsible; it's ot attacking anybody who happens to follow the same religion; it is finding out the culprit and punishing them appropriately. The original post was *not* talxking about hostile terrorists, but people who no more "deserve" to be slaughtered than those in the WTC.
As for the bully, I know from bitter experience that retaliating will *always* make things worse. But otherwise, they will eventually go away.
An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind.

Re:What repercussions

[Alessandro]

Collateral damage? What do you call putting two airliners into the World Trade Center? If the muslim fundamentalists don't worry bout killing innocent people, why should we lose any sleep about killing them? I say bomb them into the stone age. The same thing goes for any country that aids terrorists. This is war and they started it, all bets are off.

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

So you're saying kill all arabs?

I'm saying that you should kill those who have sworn to kill you. Have all arabs sworn to kill all Jews? Nope. But those who have should expect no mercy when the object of their hatred does unto them what they wish to do unto others.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[Emulated Human]

Violence breeds violence. Enter this vicious circle at your own peril. What would happen if other terrorists choose to crash a plane into a nucear reactor near you? Are you and your friends immune to biological weapons? What would you do if you turned out to be the only immune humans?

Retaliation is not the way. The terrorists think of their act as retaliation. You think of it as retaliation. How will they think of your retaliation?

Nobody, nothing forces you to retaliate. You have a choice. Take it. Think. Try, if you can, try to imagine how you would feel if those US cruise missiles killed your friends, your parents, your children. That is why for every person killed in retaliation, a new terrorist will be created. Even if you could kill every terrorist "known, suspected, or rumoured", more, even more determined terrorists would take their places.

And you would even be doing some types of terrorist a favour, as to die in their holy war secures them a place in their heavens. The drug dealers may not have believed in a heaven and were certainly afraid, but you cannot scare someone longing to go to heaven. You can only hand him a ticket to heaven.

Do not, by retaliating, give the terrorists late justification for what they did. They are convinced that the US is evil and that they are right. Do not bear them out.

Do not give the terrorists what they crave most: Attention. Give your attention to the victims and their families. Give your attention to those who suffer. Give your attention to those who these misguided terrorists believe to represent and fight for.

Eliminate the reasons for terrorism. Do not attack the symptoms, cure the causes. Do not give other people reasons to hate you. Can you imagine the hate these terrorists must have felt to be able to plan such a vicious act? Can you? I cannot, and if I could, I would be a monster. Do not create more hate in this world.

Do not negotiate with terrorists. Show the people that you care for them, and they may withdraw their support for the terrorists. Show the people the value of freedom. Show them freedom. Show them education. Show them hope. If they do not have hope, they may think terrorism is their only option.

Do not what you will regret tomorrow.

The world has been changed today. Although I am not much of an optimist, please let this be a new beginning, not the first year of the century of terrorism, for that is the alternative.

Re:What repercussions

[romanski]

...The retaliation should be done in an over the top, large scale way. It should kill civilian targets.

...if they attempt anything like this, not only will they be killled, but also their families, friends, etc.

Who the fuck are you? The suckers like YOU did this.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you blow the fuck out of their country, and kill all the mother fuckers there is no one left to retaliate back.

Re:What repercussions

[zulux]

The State Department issued a warning to all US personelle on foreign soil to watch their backs, on Friday - US embassys were also on heightened alert.

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

I guess your bitter experience involved you giving a half-hearted attempt to defend yourself that merely angered your bully and prompted him to hurt you even more.

*I* speak from experience, if you had done it RIGHT and really HURT the mother-fucker, he would have never bothered you again.

They will NOT eventually go away, if they know you are only a half-ass in defending yourself, or know that you won't do it all, you are tempting no, *INVITING* them to continue abusing you.

I don't advocate striking innocent civilians, or bombing prominent muslim holy places as someone suggested. But if you (and i'm saying 'you', not in addressing you personally, but a person in general) live in a para-military terrorist camp, you are prepared to die for your belief. It is time to make that happen.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

You, my friend, are the fucking cunt. Unless it is clear that you will not put up with this shit, you are going to have it on your plate for lunch everyday. It's just like standing up to the school yard bully. If he thinks you won't resist, he'll take your lunch money everyday. If you pop him in the nose once, and knows you will do it the next time he comes around, you will never hear from him again.

Sorry to break your analogy into pieces, but today was an attack of 8 (or more, certainly not in the 1000s) peope against a country of 300 million. Who is the big bully and who is popping him in the nose?

A country that claims to be the largest miltary power in the world can be nothing but a big bully, using its power to further its own whims. The people who attack the US today are obviously less numerous and less powerful; the tactics used are not those of a world power taking on another world power. The question is what does the big bully do when his attacker is too small to hit?

US aggression against innocent targets will only further future incidents like this, because those are the *ONLY* way small groups can deal with such an overwhelming force.. if you destroy everything a man has to live for, you leave him nothing to lose but his life, which the hijackers have today proved they value little.

No matter what, the US will always have something to lose and cannot fight against someone who acts out of desperation. As long as the enemies of the US have nothing to lose, there will always be acts of agression like this around the corner..

Apparently, there are about 4 terrorist organizations that are capable of hijacking 3x airliners and piloting them into major cities within 30 minutes of eachother. I don't think there is much reason to figure out which of these 4 are responsible, bomb them all. This is the only way to send the correct message.

If you bomb innocent civilians, if you destroy communities and families, how many more people with nothing to lose do you think you will create? How many seeds will such violence sow? Do you think the "bad guys" are all hanging out together in some area where they can be destroyed without affecting anyone else?

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

"No one ever has the right to take the life of another."

Re:What repercussions

[bfields]

What would you do if someone were holding a gun at your head? If you had the opportunity, would you shoot them first, or would you wait to hear his point of view, apologize for making them angry at you, say you're sorry for making them so mad that they would hold a gun at your head?

Help me out with your analogy here; what exactly in the real-life situation corresponds to the "gun"? Who exactly is the "someone" holding it?

--Bruce Fields

Re:What repercussions

[Molf]

What you are saying is: The strong should prey on the weak.
Having realised that you are merely a troll, I shall no longer bother to respond.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

I am the american people crying out for revenge. Revenge is not hard. Find those that are responsable and kill them pure simple.

If they are in Afganistan Get them. Now. Thus the benifits of having a frist world millitary. This is what my tax dollars go for. To make it impossable for Killers to hid in Rouge Nations.

A few Squads of Expert Troops in black helicopters. Drop into where ever these people are hidding. Killing anyone in their way, and arestting the leader to be brought back here to answer for his crimes.

A terrorist act like this can not go unpunished.

In Korea for something half as bad they kill three generations of the family of the guilty.

Re:What repercussions

[rumba]

You don't get it at all. These aren't drug dealers. The people who perpetrated this are dead. And there are others prepared to die. Killing someone who is already willing to die for their cause is called martyrdom.

You take the line that we need to teach them a lesson so they learn not to fuck with us. Hitting them with missiles and long range artillery will not teach, it will strengthen their resolve. I don't think you understand what you propose: all out war versus fanatics. You can hammer them into holes in the ground. Their grandchildren will kill your grandchildren.

You are clearly not offering a solution, just lashing out blindly.

Re:What repercussions

[FreeForm Response]

Perhaps more killing is not the answer at all?

Please, look before you (logically) leap. If you would condemn him to death for wishing the death of others, wouldn't you expect somebody to sentence you to the same? I don't think killing anybody is the answer. I don't know what the answer is, but I am fairly certain even more death isn't it. :(

Re:What repercussions

[onepoint]

In a small moment of time the USA has changed.

What we should do is worry about the lash back. I feel that if it is found to be state sponsored acts ...well.. nice knowing you... there are going to red flag the bastards.

-Michael

Re:What repercussions

[wysoft]

Strange.. Almost as soon as I finished reading this, a Chris Farley-looking character on CNN started to say "I'm sorry to say this, but the only way to truly erradicate the terrorist leaders that were behind this, many will have to be killed, even if they are not directly connected with this incident." Or at least something to that effect.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft

For daring to find them guilty of antitrust violations.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that the retaliation should be while not neccessarily swift, but definatly complete. I do not advocate attacking suspected targets, but only those that we know were responsible. Once this has been done, our response must be *complete* and leave no room for question as to what would happen to any other group that tries this type of chicken shit act.

Re:What repercussions

[Kryptonomic]

it is also necessary to note that people of the islamic faith...They believe that dieing...acts as a military for these people

I see. How nice of you to bunch all the people of the same faith into one faceless mass.

I wonder how you've actually come to this conclusion and know the islamic culture so well? Do you actually have muslims in your daily life or are you just basing your opinions on the image created by the not-so-neutral Middle East reporting of CNN?

Quite frankly, to me your post looks nothing but a xenophobic rant of a someone who is afraid of encountering and trying to really get to know and respect different cultures and religions.

I have been outside the U.S.- people hate us.

Simply not true. I bet you're just projecting your own feelings of hatred to other people.

Re:What repercussions

[Theodore Logan]

I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.

Brilliant thinking! If someone could just would have arrived at that conclusion in Oklahoma when 168 people were killed, we could have nuked these palestinians off the planet without having this long pointless investigation. Retaliation should be swift and decisive, I agree. Let's just wipe them out before.. what? They later found out that american extremists did were responsible? Uhhm... in that case.. uuhmmm.. well I'm sure it would have been a good solution to nuke random terrorist sites anyway as.. what you say? The US might have had to go to war, for bombing terrorists that had nothing to do with this attack, should that have happened?

Uuhmm.. uuhmm.. blah! I say we nuke them anyway! After all, we're americans. No need for second thoughts.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

The United States, being the most powerful country in the world at the present time, has some constraints on our actions in the international arena. Large, strong countries cannot respond to every provocation without appearing to be the world's bully. However, at some point the provocateurs cross the line where the US can overlook their actions. When that point has been crossed a country like the United States must act forcefully and without hesitation. If no action is forthcoming, the country becomes a constant target of terrorists.

That leaves the question, what action can, and should, the United States take in the present situation. Waiting and attempting to capture whoever is responsible and bring them to trial is too slow. It is also not sufficient to focus on one group or person. There are lots of groups involved in attacking the United States in large and small ways. These groups have been too small for us to bother with in any concerted manner until now.

The United States must show these groups that there is too high a price to pay for attacking the United States. For a historical precedent reread Julius Caesar's book on the battles in Gaul. It is most likely that Bin Laden is involved in this action. He is supported by the government in Afghanistan. The United States must strike the Afghan government with weapons on a sustained basis. Serious thought should be given to leveling every city in the entire country.

However, such action is only the beginning of sending the message that needs to be sent. Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Libya have been known as countries that support terrorist groups. They must be made aware that their actions are unacceptable. Therefore, all targets within those countries that support the terrorist groups and the financial infrastructure of the country must be eliminated. Power plants, dams, oil refineries, banks, mints and telecommunications infrastructure should be attacked.

Needless to say these actions will cause problems for the countries involved and their citizens. It is to be regretted, however they have made their decisions to support the wrong people and they need to pay for it if the United States has any chance of being free from attack by every little terrorist in the world.

Re:What repercussions

[SquierStrat]

It had nothing to do with retribution, it's "Holy War." It's their free pass into heaven. Kill a Christian or jew while killing yourself, so long as Allah is in a good mood next thing you'll see is 2 virgins and an all you can eat buffet for eternity. They see us as full of Christians and Jews, so...prime target. They want to destroy Israel because Mohammed (sic?) predicted the arabs would one day control all of the middle east...never mind Israel was there until the Babylonians and later the Romans overtook them. They are going to control it one day. That's what he says...if it doesnt happen their religion becomes a farce and they do not want that.

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

That was not an analogy, it was to demonstrate that this person would not stand up for himself in a severe situation, but would rather prefer to talk his way out of it. And i was correct, he has admitted that he would not shoot.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world.

That this troll could be could be considered "insightful" by any sane moderator is beyond my understanding.

AFAIK, innocent until proven otherwise is considered true even when the crimes commited are horrific, as in this case. You don't just kill people that did not do anything. Besides, launching missiles at random countries without asking them for permission to do so (and such permission would not be granted unless there is strong evidence indicating that the people to be nuked are responsible for anything) is an ACT OF WAR. No more, no less.

This is one attitude we don't need. Read comments in earlier slashdot stories covering the same topic. Most of them denounce this immediate barbaric sort of vengeance, and consider careful investigation the way to go. They are also moderated as "insightful", but rightly so.

Sheesh. What's wrong with you people?

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't think that they'd understand anyway. they believe that we, being americans, are evil and that they, being whoever they are, are good. it would be like them telling americans that they are right. would you buy it?

Re:What repercussions

[nivelo9]

I think it's "martial law"; Marshall Law was the character in Tekken.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

I make no apologies for evil individuals and I am in more-or-less agreement with you that they need to be put beyond the ability to do evil. There are even large groups of individuals who do evil. Same goes. But that's not the same thing as your apparent "they're palestinian, therefore they're evil" or "they're muslim, therefore they're evil" bullshit. That's the exact mirror image of "they're jewish, therefore they're evil" that you're having a problem with.

Chicken and egg, which came first? Let me know when you have a time machine to go back 10,000 years and find out who started it so we can wipe them off the earth. I'm not willing to make a 50% bet that it wasn't the Israelis given that they long ago surrendered any moral high ground by their own behavior (perhaps you recall the old testament stories about killing every man woman and child in a town?). Just because they aren't publishing it in every newspaper doesn't mean that it isn't apparent in their behavior.

Which of course isn't to say that all or even most Israelis are any more culpable in this than all or even most Palestinians or Muslims. Your "it's all of them vermin" thinking is exactly what the other side thinks, and until both sides find a way beyond that, this cycle isn't going to end. As soon as the Palestinians are wiped off the face of the earth, some other group will find a way to take their place.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

ha
nice one fot the terrorist force!
americans watch out:)

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, we're obviously skilled at totally removing groups we find offensive, dangerous, and violent.

Look how we've destroyed the drug cartels, the countries that continually threaten to throttle our supply of oil, and the domestic antigovernment military organizations.

Oh yeah, we do a pretty piss poor job of that, too. Why? Because besides being stupid and political suicide, you can't remove ideas by chasing individuals.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you are unaware of, or do not care about the various treaties and agreements countries abide by during war. This is a level of human decency that we all expect, and should not violate simply because foreign powers tired of our interference in their region of the world and strike at us in the only way they believe is right.
They are fucks, but that doesn't mean that I wish to be the same sort of worthless retarded fuck that they are. Tracking and preemptively attacking terrorist groups, specifically, with our special ops is fine. The mass slaughter of civilians who simply see us (through truth and propaganda) as a destructive force to their way of life is total bullshit.
We need to develop intelligence networks, have available counter-terrorist operatives at all times in suspected countries, and teach domestic passengers that three guys carrying knives and box cutters have absolutely no fucking chance against 80+ passangers.
We need to strike terrorists, and the military of countries that support them, but not murder civilians. We've done this too much already, and all it's resulted in is the death of thousands of people this day.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

You throw the word "democratic" around like it is the bestest thing since sliced bread. Let me remind you that Democracy (meaning for the people, and by some interpertations to mean by the people) has been around for a VERY long time. I agree that any retaliations need to be well planned, and that they strike the right target, but this does not involve democracy. Our nation is a republic. If it were a democracy in it's true form, we would be called to vote directly on national issues (Like when the president is allowed to use the restroom, for example.) Being a republic allows for well endowed (read big balls) people to make the tough choices without the general concent of the entire nation. That's what happened with the DEA, and what I suspect will happen here. They need to fear us.

I think that you should replace every instance of "democratic" in your comment with "Christian"; maybe then, it would be more accurate. Then again, chrisrtians are known for their fair share of attrocities, so take it with a grain of salt.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes I think, are you really that stupid?

You say they only understand violence. You know you're talking about fanatics willing to give their lives for what they believe in, don't you?
These aren't drug dealers. Drug dealers are selfish bastards. These people aren't.

There is either war for both sides or peace for both sides. Don't think you didn't provoke them.
Hurting them won't help. You'd be better of soothing them.

The land of the free and the brave. Sure. Before you go off killing civilians, make sure to burn that constitution of yours.

The south of your country once believed that money was more important than human rights.

Now you think you can punish the world when things don't go as you like.

Israel chose a new government because they said that the old one wanted to give them peace, but brought them war instead. They elected someone called the "Butcher". Then they saw real violence.
You'd better learn from other people's mistakes.

You elected that shaved chimp with an IQ of 89 who wears his Air-Force-Jacket during peace-talks.
You wanted to have someone who thinks that preserving the environment is not important, because it does not help the economy.

There is more than money. Most of the world is poor. The wealth in the western countries, especially the us, is the main reason for this.

That cheap clothes you wear, where do you think they were produced, and by whom? Do you think the person knew whether he or she would have more than two meals that day? I'm not sure.

When you're trying to rule the world, bear with the fact that there are a few people out there who don't want to be ruled.

Reading this will, of cource, anger you. But try to sit down and think. Try. A few of my points might just be true.
I condemn these acts as much as you do. As a european, my feelings just aren't mixes with so much anger and hate.

I didn't pray for the victims, as I don't believe in any kinds of gods, but I sure mourned for them.
I just don't like standing by and watching while you start world war 3 out of sheer arrogance.

Ever seen the South Park movie? When you're trying to make the world a better place, you'd better be careful.
And please look at you're own mistakes.

Re:What repercussions

[error0x100]

A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution

Except for one problem - there will still be hundreds more zealots lining up to do the next big terrorist act, possibly even bigger than this one. That kind of zealotry cannot be quashed by throwing a few people in jail. Given that though, I'm afraid I can't think of any better solutions.

Bombing the crap out of any country that supports terrorism (e.g. by allowing terrorists to hide out in their country) should eventually result in all governments refusing to harbour terrorists, that would at least make it very difficult for terrorists to *have* a safe hideout where they can sit and plan such horrible attacks - the overall message from society should be that terrorists will not be tolerated, will not be "safely harboured" anywhere they go, and will be hunted down wherever they go. Terrorists like bin Laden (assuming it was him) can exist precisely because of a culture of tolerance - he lives in a society that is willing to safely harbour him, thus condoning his actions. This condoning creates an environment where terrorists can prosper. Bombing the crap out of any such environment leaves no place for terrorists to go. Throwing a few in jail will do nothing to stop the problem.

Remember, six bin Laden flunkies are already spending their lives in jail for the Feb 93 WTC bombing - that didn't exactly stop this from happening, did it? There are hundreds more zealots volunteering to be the next ones.

Kill them all - as horrible as that sounds, it is the only solution. Unless someone else can offer another solution that will actually work? We know from experience that cute little trials and punishments are ineffective.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world.

And then you would be just like them.

Re:What repercussions

[error0x100]

Something tells me the founding fathers' idea of freedom did not include the freedom to fly a commercial airliner into the side of the world trade center. Just a thought.

Freedom extends to those who are willing to live in society without harming others. Those who wish to harm others do not get the same freedoms.

Re:What repercussions

[Toshio]

Did I miss someone?

Yup... I missed someone.

Noticed, how Mr. Bush Jr. isn't particulary fond of certain Mr. Castro living on an island not too far. Hell, you could even catch the evening party at the club if you start attack around 9am.

Re:What repercussions

[zulux]

, he has admitted that he would not shoot

I guess some lives arn't worth saving ;)

Re:What repercussions

[Silver222]

We might stop the parties and the impromptu parades that seem to have broken out with Palestinians cheering and waving flags. The worst part is, on the news feed that I saw, it was 80% children doing it. Nothing like a group of fanatics in training.

How many Muslims were in those buildings today? Say a prayer for them too. I don't think they went to work today expecting to die either.

Re:What repercussions

[panic911]

I agree and disagree.

I think we need to determine who performed this attack on the US buildings. If it's a terrorist group, then they should be dealt with, anyway possible (kill the bastards if you ask me).

If it's initiated from a government of another country, I say war! Show them, that we won't take their shit.

I used to be much more for war, but since I am now old enough to go to war, I am a total hypocrit.. I agree with war, but I would never be willing to fight in one.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

he might have been sarcastic. You can never tell with these trolls, can you?

Re:What repercussions

[metalogic]

If you think it is ok to kill innocent people, civilian targets just to "make us feel better", then what is the difference between you and them?

Please think for a moment: what makes them willing to give up their lives to commit atrocities like these? Might they be under similar emotions that you have been experiencing just now -- the loss of lives of family, friends, or fellow country men and women; or that their values under threated? But does that justify their acts? No!!! (I hope you agree with me here.) So, please don't follow them.

The group behind this need to be punished; but not in the ways you suggested. The things you suggested are not ways to stop terrorisms, but to induce more of them.

Re:What repercussions

[sigwinch]

So what are you suggesting? Turn the other cheek?

Yes. The United States has been pushing people around and generally being a nuisance to the Middle East for nigh on 50 years now. The US is very big, and very strong, and they are very small and very weak. We have B-52 Stratofortresses and they have rifles and Molotov cocktails.

In a power disparity like that, there's only one way for the little guy to fight: infrequent lightning attacks. These guys don't have the resources to carpet bomb Manhattan with daisy cutters: that would take tens of thousand of people and a very high industrial level. They *do* have the resources to send a dozen men to hijack a handful of planes. A dozen men, I might add, that are brainwashed, do not know where they were trained, and cannot identify any of the few dozen (perhaps up to few hundred) other people in the organization.

While eliminating various terrorist targets (HOPEFULLY the ones responsible) won't ensure our safety, it will make it clear to everyone that there is a price to pay for inflicting violence on our country.

And who were we to blow up to avenge the act of Timothy McVeigh? Detroit? Drop a laser-guided bomb on the 'traitors' who rented him the truck?

That's the problem: guerilla warfare presents a diffuse target, and mixes it in with non-combatants and even friendlies. Remember your uncles and fathers in Vietnam: they *lost*. For all the might and resolve and industrial capacity and high-level of technology they *lost*.

The only way to win a guerrilla war against a diffuse enemy is not to fight. Do nothing beyond diplomacy, and try to keep the saber rattling quiet. They'll either become peaceful like Vietnam, or even more warlike like Iraq. In the former case, everybody wins. In the latter case, you will be fighting an open war against a massed enemy, and that is the kind of war the US can win.

More importantly this is a wakeup call of how lax the so-called security in this country is. While I have no desire to have my privacy invaded, etc., it's frightening how easy it is for a group of people to commit such large-scale violence in such a small amount of time.

Two points: 1) That's the essence of liberty: people can walk around and do whatever they want. The only 'solution' is a police state a la the Third Reich. 2) This is a very, very, very, very small-scale amount of violence. Compared to any fire bombing of a city during WWII, it's tiny. Compared to the number of people who die horribly *every year* during the monsoon season on the Indian subcontinent, it's tiny. Compared to the Battle of Gettysberg, it's tiny. Compared to the great flu epidemic early in the 20th centuring, it's absolutely nothing. Compared to a few months of the German death camps, it's nothing.

Sure, for the people involved it's the worst thing that could possibly happen, but the *nation* can take it. The *nation* can afford to sit back and ask "What strategic changes do we make to keep this from becoming a routine thing?"

Because we cannot let it become a routine thing. There are five billion potential enemies out there, many of them who, through personal experience, equate the US with death and suffering. It only takes a few dozen such people to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans. Make no mistake: we got off *easy* this time. Those planes could easily have been loaded with anthrax, or radioactive dust. Or they could have used something much more certain than planes, like poisoning the water supply, or blowing graphite dust into every major electrical substation in the NYC area in the dead of winter.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition, I think it is important that the US immediately destroy all three of the Islamic holy sites.

You dipshit. Islam is a religion, very much like Christianity and Judaism, which worships a gentle and loving God/Yaweh/Allah. It is a clear violation of their religion to (1) commit murder, or (2) commit suicide; both are tickets straight to hell.

The vast majority of Muslims are as peaceful as your next-door neighbor. The acts of these slimebuckets is as abhorrent to their religion as the IRA attacks in England have been to the vast majority of Christians.

All you'd accomplish with this course of action would be to piss off millions of decent, observant Muslims all over the world.

Dipshit.

Re:What repercussions

[Kidbro]

And i was correct, he has admitted that he would not shoot.

The funny part is that you, as opposed to basically everyone in the world who has so far been considered a prominent figure in the fight for freedom and democracy, seem to think this is something bad...?

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

This was a concentrated, planned, and deliberate act of war by whoever staged it. You can poke at a lazy sleeping bear for only so long before it wakes up and tears your head off. Considering the fact that whoever the cowards are that perpetrated this have most likely killed over ten thousand innocent civilians, I'd expect swift retaliation with very little effort by our allies to contrain us. This isn't a truck bomb going off in some obscure African village killing a dozen Americans.. this is the largest terrorist attack in United States history. I say fry every fucking one of them. Under the circumstances I'd like to see nothing less than Bin Laden captured, brought to the United States, imprisoned in some dank shithole, and tortured every day for the rest of his life. Fuck the justice system. You don't put a wild animal on trial, you kill it.

Re:What repercussions

[Sly Mongoose]

It is said on just about all the major news networks that there has been an intelligence breakdown. That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists. Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?

Do you think you will have any choice at all?

After this, and given the attitude of the President, do you think there will be a nanoseconds hesitation when the FBI ask for the right to scan your (and mine, and everyones) hard disk twice a week?

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

It's foolishness like yours that is the reason America was attacked in the first place.

Re:What repercussions

[carlos_benj]

When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes.

That works against a group with a profit motive. That's not what's at work here. You do that with terrorists and you only feed their delusions. You nail the responsible parties with as little collateral damage as possible and you stand a decent chance of winning the war for the mindset of people (not necessarily governments or special interest groups). If that doesn't happen you spawn a new generation that looks upon the loss of 50k lives as "justifiable".

We want swift retribution because it'll make us feel better..... momentarily.

Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?

Carnivore can't sniff out an organization whose plans are made on the backside of the desert. I doubt they use the internet for anything more than propaganda. They don't plot attacks over cell phones. They're smart.

The news agencies keep talking about how this had to be a sophisticated, well funded attack. No. It was well planned, but very low tech. No foreign investments in military equipment were needed. The coordination was set by the Airline schedules (probably why they didn't fly America West), not the atomic clock synchronized on their IBM built Linux watches.... Well funded? How much do airline tickets go for these days? Did they have to build bombs? No, Take off on a transcontinental passenger flight that departs near your target and you have more fuel than Timothy McVeigh would know what to do with. Very low tech. Very inexpensive (in terms of return on investment). Very well thought out.

When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country.

On this we agree.

But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear....

I agree. That means that we don't sink to their level to the point that innocent lives in the scores of thousands are willingly sacrificed to make our point. That's not "rising above" this. We can't be willing to stoop to their level in terms of losing our humanity. If we do, we are worse than they are because we aren't as smart. This was planned with patience. Targets were chosen because of the massive losses in terms of human life, but also because they knew the symbolic and actual damages that would be done to our country.

The trade center was a seat of commerce, literally and figuratively. They struck us in the pocketbook, literally and figuratively because we put so much stock in our economic prowess.

The airlines (most people just see this as a tool, but I think it was a target as well) offered us a sense of connectedness that email and telephones can't give. We felt safe about our domestic flights and security was minimal when compared to international flights. This too was a strike at commerce since much of air travel is business related. Now all the overnight package delivery services are grounded as well. They struck us there because we felt safe.

The pentagon is the seat of our military power. They struck us there because we take great pride in our military strength (not necessarily the same as our role as international policemen).

We pride ourselves on being the strongest economically and militarily and believe that we are somehow safely insulated from this very sort of thing, and that is precisely where we were hit. Literally and figuratively.

Re:What repercussions

[merlin_jim]

I'd just like to second what everyone else has been saying.

Someone somewhere does need to be taught the lesson that America will defend its people viciously against actions of this sort. But lots of people everywhere need to know for a fact that America stands for freedom and liberty, and that we will never as a people let stand any action that takes freedom or liberty away from any individual. The moment that we condemn anyone, criminal, terrorist organization, or foreign country without due process we have given up all of our freedoms.

Oh, and I'm sure this is a VERY unpopular sentiment today, but most so-called "terrorist organizations" are perfectly legal, legitimate organizations. They're generally illegal in their countries due to sedition, but freedom of speech means freedom of speech for everyone. Sure, a large number of them don't see any harm with hurting people to get their point made, but we, the American People, have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Until and unless we have irrefutable proof that a particular organization is responsible, we should do NOTHING in terms of retaliation.

Okay, I'm done with my rant. Now will all the stupid ignorant people that want to bomb the whole fucking world just cause they're hurting please shut the fuck up and think about what you're saying?

Not that I'm too hopeful that will happen...

Re:What repercussions

[feydakin]

"Violence begets violence"

True enough.. But sufficient violence properly applied in the right location can end further violence.. WWII is full of examples.. Do you need a lesson in history??

Re:What repercussions

[Rich_F1MP]

I agree, but, i belive the retaliation should be handled through assasination, silent, no publicity, just TCB (Takin Care of Business). my 2

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they want the jews to get off of their holy land and stop butchering their civilian protestors.

Re:What repercussions

[mallie_mcg]

When someone else has sworn to kill you, sitting around and trying to be nice is stupid. Kill them first. Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques?

Careful there. The Muslim religion and MOST of the people who practice it do not condone the shedding of blood, even "infidels". It is the extremists, like most such things who promote those ideas. That comment would be like associating the KKK or worse with all christian beliefs and practices. Please do not view the minority, the vocal minority as the whole.

Disclaimer: I am not involved either as a Muslim or an American, but am an Australian. Whilst many Americans much be hurting now, (and i do hope that their hurt is healed), I believe that it is necessary to keep some form of rationalism still. I wish for retribution to be carried out, I even say i burn for it, so if i feel this, many americans must be feeling it much more heavily than I. I do not wish for peaceful people to be targeted. There is the case during the Gulf war where some yobbo firebombed a Mosque, hurting a community that supported the actions of AU, UK and US in that conflict. I would hate to see innocent people hurt, just because of a vocal yobbo who desecrates their religion in this fasion.

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

From your sig

All in favor of losing their rights, please do nothing.

From your post

we should do NOTHING in terms of retaliation.

What exactly, do you believe in?

Do you propose that we have a trial for some people we can't get ahold of in Afganistan. Do you supose that those people will turn themselves and submit to our court system? Let a judge give Bin Laden a life sentence from his courtroom in New Orleans. That will probably stop him from doing it again. Right?

The fact is, due process of law is something we afford people accused of civil/criminal transgressions. What has happened today, was, wether you would like to admit it or not, an act of war. You do not kill thousands of civilians in America and be ranked as a common thug. The person responsible for this is not just a criminal. This is now a military leader. A military strike is the only way to deal with such people.

, but we, the American People, have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

No, actually, we don't.

but freedom of speech means freedom of speech for everyone

Yes, freedom of speech should be universal. Let Bin Laden come on /. and I will discuss wether the US is the devil or not with him. If he shows his face in USENET, I'd be glad to let him speak his peace. But when his speech degrades into killing thousands of my countrymen in a cowardly but yet MILITARY attack, I think it's clear that we shouldn't need to afford him a trial, we should have him eating shrapnel.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.

Yes

If you just want to send terror everywhere in the world, then you are a terrorist. And I will not let terrorists rule the world. For me, from Switzerland, it make no difference if terrorists are from Pakistan or the USA. I will do evrything I can to stop them.

People that did this abomination are monsters. How do think monsters are created? Do you want to create more monsters? Monsters can be created everywhere, just think about Russia, Rwanda, Cambodge, Germany...

Do you think that there are no monsters in USA? Are you ready to send missile on american suspects living in USA?

What is crystal clear is that no amount of technology will protect us against such monsters. The only solution, is to not create such monsters. What will protect us is peace and justice. And not only in your countries, but also in the countries we help (think Israel).

What scares me the most, is that like Israel, the USA seem to have elected a terrorist president. I really hope he will stop speaking about revenge, and instead, ask, in public, "but why are some people in the world willing to do such abominations to the USA?"

Re:What repercussions

[j-beda]

Someone somewhere does need to be taught the lesson that America will defend its people viciously against actions of this sort. But lots of people everywhere need to know for a fact that America stands for freedom and liberty, and that we will never as a people let stand any action that takes freedom or liberty away from any individual. The moment that we condemn anyone, criminal, terrorist organization, or foreign country without due process we have given up all of our freedoms.

Agreed. The rule of law is one of the most important factors of modern "western" society.

Re:What repercussions

[Yokaze]

>If you have been watching coverage you would see that many of these muslim/islamic

If you have listened to the commentaries and understood them, then you would know that it were not "these muslim/islamic countries", but East-Jerusalem and Westbank.
And even there, where a majority approves suicide-attacks on isreal instutions, the majority did not approve attacks on the U.S. Even the two major extremist terroristical organisations dissaproved the terrorist attacks, not to mention the moderate majority. But you surely won't see them on the streets.
Several Islamic-countries readily condemned the assault, even the Talesban.

>I have been outside the U.S.- people hate us

Obviously, you're looking for the facts to prove your world picture instead looking at the facts and then make up your mind.

Several countries are shocked by the attack and feel threatened themselves.

Granted, the US Goverment had several disagreements with several other nations (e.g. Kyoto). But suggesting, that this means hate, or that they endorse such babaric acts is absurd, or even insulting.

> It is a simple fact to these people and a doctrine of Islam that if you die in a holy war, Allah will praise you in heaven

It's a doctrine of Islam as it's a Christian doctrine, that you'll get a in heaven for killing the turks to free the Holy Land.
Both aren't.

Re:What repercussions

[Paul Jakma]

ah good old WWII.

But WWII was caused by WWI. WWI was caused by various tensions that were due to various wars of the 1800s.

WWII also did not bring peace to all. It failed to resolve the balkan situation (which was the spark that ignited WWI) and the balkans flared up again in the 90s.

There is the irony of it all, Bosnia-Herzegovina sparked WWI which led to WWII, which failed to make peace in the Balkans, so that at the end of the century we saw war in the very place we started fighting about in the early century.

Also... all the slashdot big mouths who demand "immediate retaliation" etc.. etc. Have you ever seen war? Have you even talked to people who have seen it?

It is a most dreadful thing, that sows misery amongst all that feel it.

Only a fool of the highest order would jump into war.

Re:What repercussions

[bonehead]

That is complete and utter bullshit.

In many cases, this being one of them, people have a DUTY and OBLIGATION to take the life of another. It is morally unacceptable to allow the perpetrators of these attacks to remain alive.

Of course, our targets must be chosen with precision and certainty, however:

Fierce, aggressive, brutal and merciless violence is the *only* appropriate response to these attacks.

Re:What repercussions

[Pig Hogger]

But lots of people everywhere need to know for a fact that America stands for freedom and liberty, and that we will never as a people let stand any action that takes freedom or liberty away from any individual.

What fucking bullshit! "Freedom and liberty". Ha! Only the rich people with lots of money can afford the lawyers to defend their freedom and liberty. And yet, they don't have any more freedom and liberty because they are slaves to their money and bottom-line, and they can be sued into oblivion by whoever is richer than them.

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

The Muslim religion and MOST of the people who practice it do not condone the shedding of blood, even "infidels".

I never said that it was a Muslim belief. In fact, the Koran explicitly forbids the actions which Hamas glorifies in the in the name of Islam. Hamas-associated Imams preach filth that you would not believe. The Palestinian Authorithy has mind-numbing hate being used as kiddie TV. The textbooks used in schools glorify suicide bombings and encourage children to be martyrs. And then, when Israel is bombed, there is dancing in the streets. Go figure.

There should be no doubt that these people who preach this hate are worthy of death.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[Spike_/\_]

I want to point out, that *if* this was the act of Islamic Fundamentalists, killing them adds to their benefit. I want to punish them, but you need to understand that killing these people, and their friends, and their families - simply guarantees them all a golden place at the side of Allah. Possibly not an effective punishment.

Re:What repercussions

[Spike_/\_]

Bless you sigwinch, and elmegil, and all the /. folks I find on here actually thinking. We need to find a way to punish the actual attackers. If they are e.g. bin Laden, then killing them basically helps them. Read their stuff, you'll see. I propose that we act as strongly as possible against their *goals*, so that their cost/benefit ratio makes them look like their own worst enemies. If their goals are to end our support for Israel, help the Palestinians, and get the US out of Saudi Arabia - then we should (a) send our tax refund to the Israelis, (b) tell the Israelis "do whatever you want", and (c) double our presence in Saudi Arabia. Then publicize that this will happen, double, with the next such attack. The rule is: Hurt us, hurt your cause. That's what they care about - not *themselves* - they care about their *cause*.

Re:What repercussions

[jazman_777]

Yes. The United States has been pushing people around and generally being a nuisance to the Middle East for nigh on 50 years now. The US is very big, and very strong, and they are very small and very weak. We have B-52 Stratofortresses and they have rifles and Molotov cocktails.

Your whole post was extremely well-written and -thought. Thank you.

Re:What repercussions

[lukemelia]

Mail from John Perry Barlow:

DON'T WORRY ABOUT ME...

I've received enough e-mail and phone calls this morning to indicate
that many of you are concerned for my safety, knowing that I have an
apartment within the debris range of the fallen towers.

In fact, I'm in halcyon Seattle, where nothin' could be finer. Rarely
have I seen a nicer day here.

Dear daughter Leah, on the other hand, *is* in Lower Manhattan, where
she is a freshman at NYU. After several stabs, I was able to get
through to her this morning, finding her unharmed and calm. She is
going to lay low in her dorm today and likely attempt to volunteer
for relief efforts tomorrow.

I've told her for years that is no population on earth more adaptable
to emergency than the hyper-witted citizens of Manhattan. She reports
that there is plenty of evidence to support this view surrounding her
this morning. The Gothamites are rising to the occasion.

-snip-

*DO* WORRY ABOUT US. AND, MORE TO THE POINT, U.S.

As most of you know, I believe that the United States has gradually,
subtly, invisibly to most of us, become a police state over the last
30 years.

This morning's events are roughly equivalent to the Reichstag fire
that provided the social opportunity for the Nazi take-over of
Germany.

I am *not* suggesting that, like the Nazis, the authoritarian forces
in America actually had a direct role in perpetrating this
mind-blistering tragedy. (Though their indirect role deserves a much
longer discussion.)

Nevertheless, nothing could serve those who believe that American
"safety" is more important than American liberty better than
something like this. Control freaks will dine on this day for the
rest of our lives.

Within a few hours, we will see beginning the most vigorous efforts
to end what remains of freedom in America. Those of who are willing
to sacrifice a little - largely illusory - safety in order to
maintain our faith in the original ideals of America will have to
fight for those ideals just as vigorously.

I beg you to begin NOW to do whatever you can - whether writing your
public officials, joining the ACLU or EFF, taking to the streets, or
living visibly free and fearless lives - to prevent the spasm of
control mania from destroying the dreams that far more have died for
over the last two hundred twenty five years than died this morning.

Don't let the terrorists or (their natural allies) the fascists win.
Remember that the goal of terrorism is to create increasingly
paralytic totalitarianism in the government it attacks. Don't give
them the satisfaction.

Fear nothing. Live free.

And, please, let us try to forgive those who have committed these
appalling crimes. If we hate them, we will become them.

May God - or Whatever you want to call It - bless us all. We'll need it.

Barlow

Re:What repercussions

[Spike_/\_]

Well, nobody in the US seems to like hearing that, I'm sad to say. I have to say, the Palestinians are the only people on Earth who make the Irish look clever in the public relations department. Every time they have a perfect case for being victims (Americans love to help victims) they do something that converts them instantly, in every American mind, into "murderous criminals".

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

It's possible that this was internal, but not likely. The biggest clue that points to Muslim fundamentalists is the fact that these were suicide missions. They believe that such a death is honorable and gains you a seat at the right hand of Allah. AFAIK, no other religious/political/revolutinary group believes that suicide is acceptable, and in fact, Christians believe it is a sin. Even Timothy McVeigh only drove the truck up to the Murrah building and left it to explode.

Re:What repercussions

[deathscythe257]

"How nice of you to bunch all the people of the same faith into one faceless mass."

woah! hold it there buddy. One of the fundamentals of the islamic faith is that it is okay to murder anyone of different faith. It is also fundamental that dieing for the faith is extremely honorable. I did not get this from CNN. I have done pretty decent amounts of research into all sorts of religions when I was going through a time in my life where I was uncertain. Not that any of this is your business or I should care that you judged me so incorrectly.

You are very correct about CNN and other stations biased views of cultures that are different. That's why I also watch news reports from the other countries when something happens- you can get them on the internet if you didn't know. Simply put, Middle-Eastern countries are much worse about bias and slant in the media that usually sides with the government, or else they get pulled.

Not that it's any of your business but I have a few friends from the Middle East, India, Africa, and Asia. I learned a lot about their cultures from them, and in exchange they learned about the teen/young adult society in the USA. I also learned a lot about myself in the process.

Xenophobic? Hardly. I am a confident person and when I can talk intelligently about the doctrines of a religion in a friendly debate [there is no getting around what is in the Korran, sorry] I do so in a manner that seemed to piss you off. sorry. Don't hold me accountable for your insecurities, though.

'I bet you're just projecting your own feelings of hatred to other people.'

heh. Why are you so angry when I simply pointed out fundamental aspects of their society. If you are Islamic, no offense intended- I'm not speaking on you. I just mentioned the rules of the religion and how many hardcore Islamics [mostly those in the middle east at this time] act. The religion _has_ military like dogmatic and systematic control of the people. This is not to say the people are bad/evil. Just unquestioning and willing to die for their belief.

If you had truly read my original post you would have seen that I tried to approach this situation with an open mind- i mentioned that there is no hard proof [although it is stacking up on BinLadden's side] that muslims had anything to do with this, and compared the actions to christian religions seen as 'normal' by many here in the US.

Sorry if you misunderstood, but my argument was that, as it seems to me, people of islamic faith as a whole are more dogmatic and willing to die for their faith than those of the christian faith- hence the religion plays more of a part into their actions. If they attacked us- a good percentage of why is that we are a christian nation in their eyes and the enemy. Point made, religious centers which act as governmental and military offices should be attacked in retaliation.

If you need more of an argument, think of what most Americans worship- MONEY

They just attacked the center of our belief system... Why didn't they just send an A-Bomb to Rome? The WTC was our largest and most well-constructed temple/cathedral/synagouge/mosque/etc. So what about our religious beliefs, eh?

Re:What repercussions

[deathscythe257]

I did see Palestinians at least in the streets dancing and celebrating- it was mainly women and their children. Regardless;

I am aware that many islamic countries have condemned the attack. The reasons for this are two-fold. A)Not all countries hate us. B)These countries did not attack us and do not wish to be blamed for the attack.

The Talisban do hate Americans and only condemn the attack because they have been housing BinLidden for a long while. They[the Talisban] are trying to shirk an attack by the US.

I also understand that many countries like us. I said 'people hate us'... not 'everyone hates us'. There is a major difference in these statements. There are a good number of, mainly third world, countries that despise our existence.

'It's a doctrine of Islam as it's a Christian doctrine, that you'll get a in heaven for killing the turks to free the Holy Land. Both aren't.'

While i'm not sure if you left out a modifier (maybe 'just'?) in the first part of the sentence, I think I get what you are saying. However you're incorrect. Islam's very foundations state that dieing in a war for Allah is a ticket into heaven. It's in the Korran. While Christians get a free ride into Holy Land for defending their faith, this doesn't mean killing turks. Or dieing for their faith. BTW, I'm not christian if you were trying to get me riled up with that comment.

Re:What repercussions

[ethereal]

You're absolutely correct (in fact, I've already corrected someone on that score today :). I didn't say "marshal law".

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe retaliation, severe and swift retaliation, is essential to prevent future attacks. If we go easy on these people (whoever they are) now, if we let their organization survive, they will probably continue to persecute us.

However, when I say swift, I mean with all _considerate_ speed. Striking down a bunch of innocents in a suspected foreign city will not be stood by free people any more from us than from our enemies. It is antipathy to the ideals of this country. Our vengeance should be possibly long term precisely targeted work to eliminate our enemies slowly if necessary but surely. A big light show is not called for.

Americans should not and must not rush to give up their liberties. In fact, we shouldn't change our lifestyle at all. I think we should change our politics so that we're not the target of all the assholes with a knife to grind in the world. We're way too involved in other people's disputes, and we only end up getting everybody angry at us. Why can't we be neutral? Let's pull some of our energy out of other nations' problems and put it into fixing out own problems. Chief among them are education and drugs. Our goverment kinda sucks, but it wouldn't suck nearly so much, I bet, if any significant portion of the populace had a decent education and cared a whit.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Bombing the crap out of any country that supports terrorism (e.g. by allowing terrorists to hide out in their country) should eventually result in all governments refusing to harbour terrorists...

Bombing the crap out of any country that supports Zionism (e.g. by allowing Zionists to operate from that country) should eventually result in all governments refusing to harbour Zionists.

Sounds like you and the terrorists are in substantial agreement.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

You can poke at a lazy sleeping bear for only so long before it wakes up and tears your head off.

and:

You don't put a wild animal on trial, you kill it.

Apparently the terrorists believed your advice.

Re:What repercussions

[tomakaze]

RE: Sorry bud, but all a paroxym of destruction will bring is more of the same. If decisive but massive killing actually stopped the other side, Israel would be as peaceful as Omaha by now.
&nbsp
What utter horseshit.
You can not peacefully coexist with a people who's sole mission in life is to push your people into the sea, as well as make life so miserable for your allies that they think about leaving you to the wolves...
If anything shit like happens because the Isrealis (and US) have been too soft. Life aint like a freaking episode of Star Trek The Next Generation, where all conflicts can be peaceably resolved by "communication".
&nbsp
The first bombing in '93 was softpeddled. After the Cole was damn near split in two, a "blue ribbon investigative committee" was "on the case" (and still is.... laughable), and then this recent - christ I don't know what to call it - act is met with the most tepid, lack balls response imaginable (not surprizing given Bushes handling of our Spy Plane/Chinese incident - like father like son. His pappy was a spineless maggot and he seems even worse.) and the likelyhood of reprisal on our part, is almost nil.
We know who did it and we know what countries hide them, we know what countries support them, and our pain should be swiftly visited upon them 1000 fold, UN and world opinion be damned. But it will. not. happen.
And this is precisely the reason why there will be more of these attacks.

Re:What repercussions

[crucini]

That was probably the best post I've seen on the topic. One complaint though:

blowing graphite dust into every major electrical substation in the NYC area in the dead of winter.

NY is mostly heated with steam heat. Some of it comes from oil-fired burners in building basements, and a lot of it comes from Con Ed - it's waste steam from power plants. Killing the power would have massive effects, but it wouldn't cause a lot of people to freeze to death, if that's what you were thinking.
Anyway:

The real question is, "why aren't Japanese people trying to kill us? Why aren't German people trying to kill us? What did we do differently?

Re:What repercussions

[Telal]

I'm rather disgusted that this has been moderated up as, of all things, insightful. How can you go blaming an entire group of people for the acts of a few? This is the same sort of insane logic that drives terrorists.

Hit those responsible. Hit them hard. But stop to actually make sure you're acting on good information and not prejudice.

Re:What repercussions

[dabblah]

No. You are wrong. A trial and conviction, even in the presence of the death penalty are nothing. This is a declaration of war on the United States of America. No other interpretation of these events is warranted by an American. War calls for the full force and violence that the military of the United States can bring to bear against its enemies. True, we do not yet know who is the enemy (but I would rather like us to use this as an excuse to take out Bin Laden whatever the case...).

This is an action that is precedented only by Pearl Harbor in the entire history of the world in its intent, scope, scale, and speed. I can only hope that the sleeping giant will once again be awoken to his full greatness. We must bring utter destruction to the enemys that perpetrated these events and have enshrined September, 11 2001 as much a Day of Infamy as the previous day so enshrined by the great president. Furthermore, we must rebuild these great buildings bigger and stronger than before. Nothing less is acceptable. Absolutely nothing.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to retaliation against terroist hangouts how about Mount Vernon, N.Y. where you will find Patrick Critton wanted for the December 26, 1971 hijacking of an Air Canada jet. With gun and gernade Patrick Critton had the jet flown to Cuba, were for many years he disappeared. When Canadian authorities did locate Critton he was living in the open under his own name, and a successful small businessman. Now Canadian authorities are attempting to convince U.S. authorities that this man should be sent back to Canada to face justice.

One hopes that the U.S. will get more co-operation from other governments than they offer the rest of the world when it comes to terror, but it would serve the U.S. right if they didn't. Perhaps the U.S. should get it's own house in order before going after scum elsewhere.

Re:What repercussions

[sigwinch]

NY is mostly heated with steam heat.

Good point. Where I am in the midwest there tends not to be enough economy of scale to justify steam, and I tend to forget about it. Although anybody that uses forced-air heating, which I imagine includes a lot of finance and logistics companies with fancy thermostats, would be still be screwed.

Killing the power would have massive effects, but it wouldn't cause a lot of people to freeze to death, if that's what you were thinking.

Maybe not on a blow-up-the-World-Trade-Center scale, but still, killing a hundred or so old and poor people using a leaf blower and a bag of industrial lubricant is still a pretty good kill ratio, especially if the terrorist claimed responsibility and worked the public fear angle for maximum effect.

The real question is, "why aren't Japanese people trying to kill us? Why aren't German people trying to kill us? What did we do differently?

Anyone who can't answer that question should be removed from US policy-making. Just look at the Chinese! We blew up their embassy, and they nearly killed everyone on one of our military airplanes and afterwards hassled us mightily, and they're Most Favored Nation with no signs of that changing! On the one hand, we have the strong-willed nuclear-armed intellectual descendants of Chairman Mao who are on their way to becoming allies, and on the other hand we have (and this is only a guess based on the scanty information available) poorly-armed desert punks who would've nuked Manhattan if they could.

Unless we want repeat performances, we'd better figure out how to avoid instigating this kind of warfare in the future. The risk mitigation techniques needed are vastly different than for conventional warfare, and I fear that the old guard will get hundreds of thousands of Americans killed before they figure this (much like they did when they ignored air power in a previous war). And least the Enemy hit the Pentagon. Thank God for that. Even the most fossilized Cold Warrior has trouble ignoring an airplane hitting *his* building.

Re:What repercussions

[IBgrad]

As far as I know all "solutions" to cases like this fall into two categories.

1) "Kill them all and count the bodies." -CIA basic operating procedures

2) "Always leave your enemy a way out, the only truly dangerous enemy is a desperate one." -Sun Tzu

So what do all US hating terrorists want from the US? They want us dead or at least out of their lives. So are we to trade the lives of the Kosovo Albanians, or Isrealis for fewer people hating us for being Free? If we take Sun Tzu's advice and try and leave them an option, what do we offer? Exile to Antarctica? frontal lobotomies? When the disparate strategies of the CIA and Sun Tzu were originally brought to my attention, (I believe it was in a Tom Clancy novel, the same guy who wrote about using Boeings full of jet fuel as offensive weapons) I could not understand the need for the CIA's ruthless, even barbaric, practice. Now I think that I better understand; Sun Tzu was talking about rational enemies, but the CIA is trained to deal with the more difficult kind.

I am all for a slightly restrained offensive against all nations deemed to be supporting terrorist activities. I say give them the choice of performing "acts of good faith" such as the ejection of known terrorists, freezing of assets, destruction of training infrastructure, and CESSASTION OF PROPAGANDA, to back up all the verbal condemning that everyone is bandying about. Then, for those that do not comply, we introduce them to the business end of our own version of a passenger jet full of fuel, they are called fuel-air bombs.

Since it is extremely important I will reiterate that an end to the propaganda is of vital importance. If people like the PA were not brainwashing their children to be martyrs, it would be a lot harder for Bin Laden to find opertives. We also need an end to the double standards. If anyone was even bothering to look, they would know that Lebanon actually treats the Palestinian "refugees" in their country worse than Isreal treats the civilian population of the West Bank. Funny how no one tried to bring that up at the UN racism conference.

The World Net Daily news worth reading about.

Re:What repercussions

[gizzmo]

The "rule of law" is for catching and incarcerating criminals and making them pay their debt to society. While a crime was commited today, the attack was also an act of war. We should wait a couple of weeks to investigate and find out who is responsible, and then officially declare war on them and any goverment standing between them and our armed forces. We have fought three wars since WWII, and not a single one was fought because of a direct attack against the American people. We have good cause to go to war over this, in fact we may even have good cause to go to war against all Fundamental Islamic groups (who are most likely responsible, but I will withhold judgement). The entire military might of the US and it's allies should be brought the bear on those responsible for today's attack. This is war. You may not agree with it, and you are entitled to your opinion, but it does not change fact. The time for trials and hearings will be after whoever did this is brought to the US. Until then, the aprehension of those responsible should be the job of the Armed Forces, using whatever tactics of war they deem necessary to bring justice and break the backs of these worldwide terrorist networks.

Re:What repercussions

[jbrite]

This is not likily to be a random act. They probibly believed they were retaliating for something the US government did. Maybe supporting thier enemies.

The '...kill all the mother fuckers...' is the mentalality that those people where in when they attacked the WTC and Pentagon.

You have to remember that not everyone in thier country is to blame, just like not everyone in this contry (or on those planes and within those buildings) is to blame for what our leaders did that caused this.

-Jeff

Re:What repercussions

[AsylumWraith]

No, the assholes who did this started it. We'd just making sure it doesn't happen again.

Be rational people. It's an ugly world out there, to be sure. Utopian solutions have been proven time and time again not to work. So the only way to stop this is to resort to violence. As distasteful as that is, sometimes it is necessary.

The only way to be *absolutely* sure that this doesn't happen again is to make sure that those who would attempt terrorist actions are too scared (of losing their lives, of their families losing their lives, of failing, whatever) that they won't even try. We *MUST* as a civilized people, eradicate this kind of barbarism, as quickly, and as efficiently, and as PERMANENTLY, as possible.

And before you tell me I'm being overly emotionally, you're right. Anyone who doesn't react emotionally to this is less than human.

To the survivors, and the families of the victims of this hideous tragedy, you have my deepest sympathies and condolensces.

To the vicitms, you will be missed.

Re:What repercussions

[AsylumWraith]

I don't care if they think they're going to Allah. They're gone from this world, hence not a problem anymore.

Also, don't use the word "Islamic" to describe these people, even if you tack "Fundamentalist" to it. It's a slander to one of the greatest, most tolerant, and most peaceful religions on the planet.

Pigs like the ones who committed this atrocity do nothing but pervert and slander Islam.

Re:What repercussions

[Dwonis]

Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?

YES! It is such a bad thing. You're forgetting that crypto export controls do nothing to prevent anyone from getting their hands on cryptographic technology. Anyone can build a cryptographic communications device quite easily, so crypto controls will only serve to restrict legitimate use and research in the field. I don't know about you, but I don't want any government wasting its time on useless measures at this time.

Cryptography is out of the bag. Get used to it.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

That's BS. What our leaders did to 'cause' this was to support Israel. Whatever has happened since this all started, Israel's biggest 'crime' to start with was to take/assume posession of Israel. Oh, and to be able to defend themselves against pretty much every nation around them, most of whom have expressed the destruction of Israel as a desireable goal. And our government's 'crime' was to support them. If we had allowed Israel to be destroyed years ago, (and millions of Israelis murdered) then gee... perhaps this wouldn't have happened.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Fight fire with fire?
Well, going after those who are happy with this isn't a solution to anything - everybody are entitled to an opinion no matter how 'wrong' or horrible it may seem. The palestinian people where celebrating yesterday - should the US launch a full scale attack on them too? Don't bee ridicilous.
Clearly it would not solve a thing.
G.W. Bush' comment that anyone harbouring the gulity would be punished is a clear indication that something like this could happen but what if the Osman-Bin-Laden-Terrorist-group is hiding in the UK or France or Germany - should the US blow up that country then? Would that help to 'settle the score'? How would Bush know that the countrys government was involved in hiding the perpetrators?
In Afghanistan the civilians are suffering from the terror of the Taliban movement - will they suffer the wrath of a wounded US now? Are the people of Afghanistan responsible for the actions of the Afghanistanian government? Will slaughtering the population of a whole country solve anything?

Many questions but no answers.

I hope this terrorist act will not spawn a WW3. As it seems (from what Bush has allready said) this could be the case.

God bless us all.

Re:What repercussions

[matthewr84]

Excuse me? I'd say a "paroxysm of destruction" ended WWII quite handily. On the other hand, mealy-mouthed diplomacy in the beginning resulted in millions of defenseless people being slaughtered. America is even on friendly terms with Germany and Japan, and there are still people living who fought on both sides of the conflict.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly how Hitler treated any resistance.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

The spanish inquisition? You gotta be kidding. The spanish inquisition didn't do shit compared to what has been done by the superpowers around the world, including the USA from the very beginning of its history (starting with the systematic genocide of all native americans, following with esclavism and keeping on -with the still latent- apartheid).

In the middle of the disaster, ignorance keeps surfacing in Slash-doh.

Re:What repercussions

[j-beda]

I do agree that declaring war on a country that sponsors this type of attact could be justified. The "rule of law" also covers how we go about declaring a state of war.

There are however many problems thinking that war is the only or even first response that should be considered. What do we do if it turns out to not be state sponsored? If it was the FLQ do we start bombing Montreal or Ottawa? (The Federation du Liberation du Quebec was responsible for a number of bombings and deaths in the 1970's) If it was the IRA do we bomb Dublin? If it was a Protestant Irish group do we bomb Dublin again?

What level of state sponsorship is sufficient to assign responsibility? PETA is a registered non-profit organization in Australia, as are the boy-scouts. If either of them turns up as being responsible somehow do we level Perth?

What level of evidence should we use? If we bomb some-small-country into the ground and it turns out we were mistaken, what do we do then? What if group A tried to make it look like group B did the deed? (Which could happen even if group A was not involved at all.) Wanna get someone in deep deep deep do-do? Make people think it was their fault.

If we investigate and find out who is responsible (which could include state leaders) and indite them and ask for them to be extradited, and they are not forthcoming - at that point I would have much less problem with the declaration of war.

Part of the reason people resort to terrorism is the feeling that they are powerless within the system. The best way to combat terrorism and revolution and instability in my opinion is to ensure an effective, impartial, and fair legal system in addition to mechanisms for everyone to feel properly represented in governing their lives and future. Obviously the USA cannot do much to make sure that group A feels good about their situation with group B in country C (though foreign policy does have some influence in this area), but we can, and the very least, hope that the USA will follow both the spirit and the letter of the law when pursuing even the most evil of villans.

Re:What repercussions

[romanski]

...We *MUST* as a civilized people, eradicate this kind of barbarism, as quickly, and as efficiently, and as PERMANENTLY, as possible.

hmm, permanent solution , where did I hear it? Adolf?

...And before you tell me I'm being overly emotionally, you're right. Anyone who doesn't react emotionally to this is less than human.

Do you mean *only* emotionaly? So if somebody has a brain as well, he is not human any more? You are probably right, the recent world seems so....

So take weapons, kill next thousands of innocent, and wellcome in global Bosnia!

seriously, if you want to solve anything you have to make sure:

1. inevitability of the punishment

2. the precison you will find the correct suspect.

And if you will take with him thousands of innocent peopple, their relatives will have all rights to hunt you.

Re:What repercussions

[invid]

Japan and the United States are at peace right now. Why? Because after the United States was attacked we inflicted such horrific destruction upon their country that they were compelled to surrender and abandon violence.

There are countries right now that finance and harbor terrorism. These countries consider terrorism to be a valid weapon of their arcenal. We must make it clear that it shall not be allowed for a country to finance and harbor terrorists. If they do we should declare war on them and bring them to the point where they can no longer support terrorist activities. The safety of our citizens is at stake.

Re:What repercussions

[mastiff34]

Are you drunk? From your post I take it that you are not an American citizen and if you are, I am deeply concerned over your principles.
Let me make ONE thing perfectly clear, this was an attack against ALL americans young and old and it SHOULD NOT go unpunished!! For all your f-cking people dancing in Palastine over our loss, I got one thing to say to all of you.... The sleeping giant is awake, and we are pissed.

Re:What repercussions

[RexxFiend]

purely off the top of my head there is switzerland. They haven`t been involved in a war for a couple of hundred years at least. They even managed to stay neutral and unoccupied in both ww1 and ww2.

Granted they have a shitload of money and don`t give a fuck who they do business with but they are still around.

Re:What repercussions

[merlin_jim]

You ask what I believe in... my belief in this matter is that certain rights are inalienable, but fragile. That every individual deserves the same basic freedoms and liberties, and that they must be fought to be preserved. In this case, that means walking carefully until all the facts are known.

I don't mean having a full trial by any means, but I do mean having irrefutable proof that Bin Laden (or whoever the evidence points to) did it. The events of yesterday were indeed an act of war, but a war like mankind has only begun to see. These were not the actions of a people-sanctioned or supported government. These were the actions of a few men out of a large population. The answer is not missles or bombs or wholesale slaughter. The answer is surgery. Cut the ugly tumor out of the heart of the nation and let it heal.

What I meant about freedom of speech is you can't condemn someone for hating America or for wanting to be responsible for this or for cheering that this happened. Sure, these things may be morally criminal after yesterday's events, but they are not legally criminal. I urge caution pointing the finger at anyone, for how terrible it would be to find out later that we pointed at the wrong person.

Re:What repercussions

[merlin_jim]

Only the rich people with lots of money can afford the lawyers to defend their freedom and liberty

You bring up an excellent problem with our society currently. But the problem is more one of how does one fairly defend freedom and liberty more than how does one obtain them. The mere fact that this is an issue that many people acknowledge points out that it works. The only way to ever obtain perfect freedom is to be a society of one. Other humans will always be impinging on your freedom, intentionally or not.

The question then is not how free you are, but whether your freedom is recognized, and how fair the arbitration process is. Granted, it could be made more fair here in the states, but I would wager that the vast majority of Americans never butt up against that problem.

Re:What repercussions

[spagma]

How does that line go? Kill them all, and let God sort them out. Sounds good to me.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

There will be no black boxes recovered from those planes. The one in PA left a massive hole in the ground, the ones that hits the towers took down them both in huge explosions, and the Pentagon the same. Even if there could be found the data recorder, the data would not be in any condition to view.

Now, you're using "democratic right" incorrectly. Our democratic right is to vote (even though it isn't even a democracy, it's a republic). You're confusing the bill of rights and democracy.

Since other countries are not citizens of our country, they don't have the same rights as an American would attribute to himself (this goes to anyone in any country).

So striking back against the terrorist faction who did this will not be giving in to anything. They attacked us. It's war. Simple as that.

And killing any terrorist is a good deed in my opinion anyhow.

Re:What repercussions

[_xen]

When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good. Since that time, DEA agents have led charmed lives. In many cases DEA agents are in peril, but only live because the Druggies know better than to touch a DEA agent for the repercussions. In the same light, it is clear to me and should be to everyone else that a serious strike against ALL possible/suspected terrorist organizations will send a similar message.

You are making the same mistake here that many foreign policy analysts are making. Your thinking is too western and suffers from the fact that it is too rational. The would-be recipient of your message, sadly, is any thing but.

The DEA case is not really appropriate, because I assume, the drug dealers don't actually want to get shot dead by US law enforcement agencies ...

Now cleart the US must retaliate, and hard. And I agree it really doesn't matter if the scapegoat is the guilty party or not, so long as it is one of the usual suspects. This is necessary, if for no other reason, to discourage states, indigenous terrorists and other (semi-)rational entities. Unfortunately a side effect of this is that it will actually encourge more Islamiscists to become suicide-bombers. You have been paying attention to what is happening in Israel/Palestine? You see your 'message' looses something in the translation, 'don't touch us or you'll get hurt,' becomes 'we are offering you a glorious death.'

The real solution (insofar as there is one) is likely to be far more difficult to arrive at. However, if you don't know your enemy, you not likely to find it.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Bzzzt. The reason Switzerland became neutral in the first place is because Europe was TERRIFIED of Swiss mercenary forces. I believe it was Napoleon who talked the Swiss into agreeing that they would remain neutral in future European conflicts, in exchange for the honor of guarding the Vatican (you know, those guys with the poofy uniforms and the halberds).

Today, every Swiss family has a Heckler & Koch G3 7.62mm assault rifle in the closet, ready to deploy as part of the militia. This is NOT a pacifistic nation, it's a neutral one. Not the same thing.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

September 12, 2001 A terrorist's logic: make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them." The above is of course from George Bush this morning. Don't we see, this is just what the attackers did to us. Presumably, they hate very much of US economic and political policy and they see it as threatening the rights and existence of perhaps the majority of the human race and so they strike where they can, using crude weapons (hijacked planes) to make the largest psychological and symbolic impact they can (on status Qua world trade, which so often means bleeding wealth from the weaker towards US capital; on the US military, which so often functions as the ultimate bully older brother who stands by (or simply beats up little kids directly) to make sure his little brothers can pursue illegitimate aims that they otherwise would be too weak to pursue; on US diplomacy (Camp David) which, as in the Orwelian-named peace process or the US-dominated and US-undermined UN, very often means lies and oppression under a veneer of platitudes about democracy and freedom. The terrorists who attacked the US made no distinction between their direct enemies and their hosts. That's much of what makes the definition of terrorism. Hence, Bush, in his third-string figurehead style, the morning after these attacks turns around and overtly and enthusiastically joins our attackers in their moral universe. Don't get me wrong, the attacks are evil. I do not condone the attacks. I am sickened and numbed and flattened by them, like most of us. I think there may be logic to much of the critique of the US that is presumably behind the attackers, but by using these means the attackers have all but abandoned the ability to make a standing moral critique of the evils the US state commits. If the goals of terrorism are psychological (to block actions or awaken an enemy through fear), it is of course the crudest of psychology. The better parts of human psychology are also the more effective in the long run, or even the mid-run: reason (convince the American people with evidence that their government and economic system is committing crimes against humanity) and higher feeling (Gandhi as of course a crown example). The US state and US capital have largely brought these attacks and deaths on us. I have brought these attacks and deaths on us, because although I believe I have some awareness of the crimes of our state, as a citizen of that state I do little to stop them. I am culpable in the crimes of our state and the crimes against us of those who would attack our state. Power always is ultimately with the whole populace, and this becomes directly clear in even a much-bastardized democracy such as ours. Our civil liberties in the US will be weakened in the wake of the attacks. The ability to be reasonably dissident of US policies and actions will be weakened. The attackers have made it harder for complaints against the US abuses of power to be defended or even heard in the US. None of the mainstream coverage I have seen thus far (NPR, CNN, ABC, CBS, New York Times) has so much as mentioned possible reasons for the attacks. It would of course be a standard, knee-jerk question to at least ask about motive in the wake of a crime like this. Why hasn't this been discussed in the mainstream? It's a glaring omission. It's commonly held that one of the major motivations of a terrorist attack is to get press coverage on an issue. This is largely a waste in the US. The mainstream US media are so well self-censoring that there will be at best paltry and passing discussion and mention of why there would be people wanting to do this attack on us. The only ways to fight the moral and intellectual cripple that is US state-capital power is through higher moral action, evidence and reason, and with the ultimate weapon that makes the established political and economic powers in the United States shiver with fear and whimper in their sleep at night: democracy. They can handle all else thrown their way and even turn it towards their advantage, even the innocent deaths of tens of thousands of their own citizens. By way of a very quick and admittedly lazy bibliography if anyone would like to look for sources to my arguments, I'll just throw down http://www.zmag.com , Z Magazine's web site, an often very high quality leftist magazine.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

revenge is not justice;
nor grievance justification.
nor blame comprehension;
nor innocence righteousness.
actions cannot become answers;
we discover that our questions
are like ashes from the sky:
bitter. abiding. grey. silent.

Re:What repercussions

[Yokaze]

> I said 'people hate us'... not 'everyone hates us'.

I interpreted the nearness of "people" and "world" as "people in the world".
Thanks for making this point clear for me.

>I did see Palestinians...

Some thousand Palestinians. How about the other ones? How about the 1 billion Muslim all over the world?

>if you were trying to get me riled up with that comment

I did not. Maybe I did not myself clear enough.
The Bible has been used as justification for war and death (Crusades and Conquestadores) as nowadays the Koran is used as justification.
I expected that your knowledge about the Bible would be more firm than your knowledge about the Koran and that you'd know about the wrongness in the use of the Bible as justification. Then I hoped, that you'd consider that the Koran is abused as the Bible has been.

>Islam's very foundations state [...]

The 1997 Oxford Dictionary of Religions quotes Mohammad as saying:

"In avenging injuries inflicted on us, do not harm non-belligerents in their homes, spare the weakness of women, do not injure infants at the breast, nor those who are sick. Do not destroy the houses of those who offer no resistance and do not destroy their means of subsistence, neither their fruit trees, nor their palms."

Re:What repercussions

[deathscythe257]

what i mean by all of this, is that this is the same deal as with David Korresh and his terrorist/cultist/militant peons. We destroyed their citadel, their home, their church. What is the difference. I'm not saying Napalm and A-Bomb all of the Middle East. What I am saying is a very decisive and clear attack on whoever is responsible(when we find out who is) is necessary to tell these people, 'Hey, we're not gonna take your shit. You are not an individual snowflake. Rules _do_ apply to you. Don't fuck with us.'

And while many people go about their daily lives without worrying about the U.S. as people do here, there is a far greater percentage of terrorist activity in the Middle East than anywhere in the nearly deregulated U.S. [what I mean by this is that the U.S. is so large, it is quite possible that vast militia's could be formed in rural areas without government knowlegde]

And while many overseas had nothing to do with this, many are celebrating. Those celebrating the deaths of well over 10,000 people should be held just as responsible as those who committed the act. We have laws similiar to that over here making people accomplises after the fact- not exactly the same situation, but i think you get my point.

And while the bible has been abused, it's not nearly as often or recent or on grand scale as such.

And correct me if i'm wrong, but I think a major reason that everyone blames the U.S. for their problems is the major restrictions and rules they place upon themselves. They really aren't free in their own beliefs if they are fundamentalist. This builds up a hostility that is outwardly projected. I say, we show them that we will not take any act of terrorism or threat to our civilians.

Also, fundamentalists would use that passage as to mean, 'Do not harm anyone who has or is willing to assimilate to our culture.' They would consider 'homes' as the place of residence- their actual house. Today many people stand with homes broken, no father, no mother, no job, no income. The economy will take a definite blow. This destroyed their 'means of substinence', however fundamentalist would still consider all these people hurt to be infidels.

We took over Japan once, not in the best way. But, in rebuilding their economy during our occupation [mainly because we felt bad], we showed[or tried to show] that we were not all bad. Today, the U.S. has great relations with Japan. I'm just saying it might help to be the forceful hand. We've turned our heads away from terrorism one to many times.

Re:What repercussions

[rpg25]

No, arguably what's wrong is that Israel has not done decisive but massive killing. They've done very precisely targeted, minimal killing, to do the best they can to wipe out terrorists without incurring too much trouble from world (read European) opinion.

Re:What repercussions

[mrkipper]

While it may feel very emotionally satisfying to smack flat every group that we feel might jepordize american safety there is a severe problem with this idea. Right now, at least publicly, nearly all nations in the world feel like America is entitled to go after the people who did this. If we "put the hurt" on everybody we even vaguely suspect, and in the process ignore collateral damage (like the peasants who live in the same village, within the blast radius), we are going to shift the world view back to: America, the Overbearing Military Menace. I suspect it was this image of America that the mastermind of this attack used to delude 4 suicide pilots into flying jumbo passenger aircraft into the WTC and the Pentagon. I personally don't believe for one instant that we will be able to forever guard ourselves against all terrorist attacks. Perhaps it would be more effective in the long term to use a very surgical kind of retaliation. Something that makes the World in general look at the people who planned this and say, "Good Heavens, I don't ever want the United States that mad at me!!" But this awful revenge must leave the innocents who might be in the general vicinity unharmed. Remember, those people who witness the retribution visited on the planners of this attack need to be able to tell the world what they saw.

Re:What repercussions

[RexxFiend]

fair enough, sweden and norway are pretty laid back though, I can`t remember the last time I heard either of those countries getting into a pissing contest with anyone.
The point being that you don`t have to be a slavering animal on the world stage to keep your culture or identity - America are WAY too aggressive and it pisses the rest of the world off, particularly those in the middle east.
Relax ffs and enjoy your "freedom", just don`t ram it down everybody else`s throat.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

You can not peacefully coexist with a people who's sole mission in life is to push your people into the sea,

But then you get blamed for trying to kill the Israeli's who are doing that to you. I guess you just can't win, can you.

In case my sarcasm is not PLAINLY evident, you need to get a clue and stop assuming that because the most vocal of a group are radical and arguably even evil doesn't mean that the whole group agrees. Just look at how long slavery held on in the face of reasonable opposition here.

Of course it's not in the interest of the saber rattlers and advocates of genocide like yourself to actually allow the view that there are actual (gasp!) moderate palestinians who genuinely would like to live in peace. That might mean that the easy (and final) solution isn't so easy after all.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Sweden and Norway both maintain military forces though. Sweden is one of the few (I can think of about three: US, Sweden, and France) countries who design and build their own multirole fighters.

I'm not arguing that you have to be an aggressive military powerhouse in order to survive. I argue that you must be willing to defend yourself and your interests, or else people who are not so high-minded will be happy to take them away from you.

Where exactly is America so aggressive? I don't understand what you're talking about.

Re:What repercussions

[error0x100]

Sounds like you and the terrorists are in substantial agreement

Thats odd, I don't remember advocating bombing random targets with random innocent civilians/children in them from random countries around the world. Funny, isn't it. Can't you think?

Re:What repercussions

[error0x100]

I am all for a slightly restrained offensive against all nations deemed to be supporting terrorist activities. I say give them the choice of performing "acts of good faith" such as the ejection of known terrorists, freezing of assets, destruction of training infrastructure, and CESSASTION OF PROPAGANDA, to back up all the verbal condemning that everyone is bandying about

I fully agree. Giving a known terrorist safe harbour is no less a crime than being a terrorist. If I had personally knowingly allowed someone like (for example) Timothy McVeigh to hide out safely in my own home and use my place to plot his activities, that certainly would not mean that I'm not an active participant in his crimes, and it would certainly be VERY meaningless for me to publicly condemn his actions. If a country like Afghanistan knowingly provides such safe sanctuary to international terrorists, they are in the same way active participants of "crimes" perpetrated by those terrorists against other countries. So attack those countries that will harbour terrorists.

If the people here on /. cannot tell the difference between a military attack on a country and blowing up 100% random civilians, including women and children from all parts of the world, then I'm sorry for them. There is a HUGE difference. All of the military people I know go to great pains to avoid injuring innocent civilians, while terrorists go to great pains to ensure that they injure innocent civilians. Its a gaping difference, the fact that so many people here can't see it just reaffirms my belief that most people are too stupid to think. You can argue that people are people, military or not, but compare: (a) killing ten thousand random individuals, including women and children, from all parts of the world who are innocently going about their daily, crime-free lives, and: (b) killing a couple hundred people currently training themselves to become terrorists with the ultimate goal of murdering people such as those in group (a). How so many people cannot see the "subtle" differences between those two groups is beyond me.

Propaganda unfortunately appears to be a problem no matter what country you live in (no exceptions that I know of). I can't think of any real solutions, apart from (a) providing people with freedom to express their own ideas (free speech) and (b) giving people an education that teaches them to think and teaches them to come to their own conclusions about things. A ready flow of information from many sources is important. The "sheeple" problem appears to be a combination of people only having access to a particular one-sided view of things, and people simply accepting the views that are presented to them. Thus the "solution" would be to convert every country to a free democracy in similar spirit to the USA, and a large-scale improvement in worldwide education, with more focus on critical thinking. Obviously, this 'solution' is not on the verge of happening - not unless something BIG forces a lot of change upon the world. Currently there are billions of people whose general views on life are already very well formed, and no amount of gentle persuasion can change that.

Re:What repercussions

[error0x100]

We have freedoms guaranteed via restrictions on government (theoretically) through the Constituation and the Bill Of Rights, South Africa and your other examples do not

Make that "did not" :) ... (http://www.gov.za/structure/constitution.htm)

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

Blah blah blah .. what a load of pacifist, sentimental bullshit. We don't live in Utopia, a societal system that does not take human nature into account WILL FAIL (communism was based on the Utopian idea of a classless society - all pretty and sweet and love and flowers - but ITS AGAINST HUMAN NATURE - it was bound to fail simply because of this fact - it is human nature to create classes, and no amount of pretty little sentimental poetry crap will change human nature. (Of course, communism failed for other reasons, but I doubt it would have worked anyway - capitalism works though because it is a lot more in line with human nature - competitive and aggressive. Here is a little tip on human nature - REVENGE IS SWEET. Lets face it. Yes, it sounds horrible, but actually it is not - revenge can have profound psychological benefits. If someone murders thousands of Americans, that creates a huge psychological burden on all Americans, including a sensation of powerlessness and helplessness (which are NOT good things to feel in spite of your cute little poetic assertions, humans who feel powerless and helpless end up with BIG problems). Finding out who did it and taking revenge means standing up for your rights, standing up for yourself, and asserting your own right to exist. Sitting back, turning the other cheek, and spouting stupid poetry means saying "yeah, walk all over me, kill me, I won't do anything to you because I don't believe in violence". A little tip on real human nature - humans NEED to believe in themselves, that they are worth defending. Revenge is one way of EXTERNALIZING anger. Anger that is not externalised is INTERNALIZED - "anger turned inward" - anger turned inward creates tension, stress, anxiety, depression and has VERY negative psychological effects.

The day that people stop these quaint dreams that focus on an unrealistic, UNATTAINABLE future, and start focusing on PRACTICAL systems for humanity to live in (that take our own human nature into account), is the day the world actually starts moving forward and progressing. As lovely as it sounds on the surface, you can't neglect human psychology when designing systems for humans. A world where we all join hands and prance about in flowery meadows isn't going to happen, so lets stop the pointless daydreaming and focus on ATTAINABLE solutions.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to be much more for war, but since I am now old enough to go to war, I am a total hypocrit.. I agree with war, but I would never be willing to fight in one

Thats interesting .. I'm the opposite .. all my life I've been strongly against war, and have found repugnant the entire military, its way of thought and operation, its purpose etc. I've always HATED the idea of being called up and sent off to die.

Yet after watching the twin towers collapse, live on TV, for the first time in my life I actually felt, this is something worth fighting against, this is something I might even be willing to go out myself and fight against. And I'm not even American, I've never even been on that continent.

Re:What repercussions

[SquierStrat]

Ever think maybe it is jewish holy land also? Hey, palestinians butcher just a many civilians...noticed the cars loaded down with bombs being driven into hospitals? Cut the crap, they start a war with the Israelis, the lose, the lose land in the process, they try to get that land back and can't so they commit acts of terrorism.

Re:What repercussions

[RexxFiend]

The following UK newspaper reference explains what I am talking about much more eloquently that I could:
Link to Guardian Story

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604, 55 1036,00.html)

I`m not trying to start a flamewar or stir up trouble but there are other ways of protecting your interests without pissing everybody else off in the process.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Yup. The US has defended itself against threats from Afghanistan, tried to restore order in Sudan, and (with UN authority) bombed Yugoslavia. We also supported the (UN chartered) country of Israel. We have also declined to trade with nations with whose policies we do not agree. We have tried to set up democratic governments where there were none, and we have supported those who fight against oppression (like in Afghanistan and Central America)

I don't remember Afghanistan hating us so much when our surface to air missiles and training support were the only things between them and being a Russian state. I don't remember Sudan hating us when we sent food and water and humanitarian aid.

No, I DON'T understand why we're hated. Maybe I'm an ugly American, but this does not compute. The injustices and inequalities that this article argues create terrorism CANNOT be addressed, because in large part they are fabricated and perpetrated by the very terrorists who purport to abhor them. America is far from perfect. Sometimes, it's not even very good. But which regime would you rather have running the show? George W. Bush, or the Taliban?

Re:What repercussions

[Kharny]

I'd rather have free speech as it is in the Netherlands and most of europe, than the american Free speech, where some multinationals control all the information.

Re:What repercussions

[Anonymous Coward]

ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED!!?!
HOLY SHIT!
do you have any idea of what the implications would be of sending ICBM's and any other WMD's to all countries that have ever supported terrorism, would be? Do you know how many countries that would be? we aren't just talking about Afghan, we're talkin about Afghanistan, Libya, The Phillipines, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan,to name a few. You are retarded. Human life should be preserved ar all costs.

rebuilding the towers...

[mach-5]

After a discussion with some co-workers, we agreed that the towers should be re-built, and in the some location as the former towers. Not only as a memorial to those who died, but also as a sign of this country's strength.

Any other thoughts on this matter? Should the towers be rebuilt?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[pezpunk]

yep. let's do it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Communomancer]

Personally, I'd like to see three towers built in their place, with the middle one much taller than the other two. That way, it would look like a giant middle finger, directed straight at the fuckers who did this.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[digitalsushi]

yup. they could either turn it into a park, and thats like.. defeat, but if they rebuild them then its a symbol of defiance and/or hope. i read on here that the towers themselves were strong enough even with the holes in them, but the fires melted the metal and thats why the fell down. so maybe with a little more precautionary stuff this time around.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mazel#Tov]

After a discussion with some co-workers, we agreed that the towers should be re-built, and in the some location as the former towers. Not only as a memorial to those who died, but also as a sign of this country's strength.

Personally, I've been thinking that it might be more appropriate to level the blocks completely and have everyone's names who dies in this engraved in steel plates, along the lines of the Vietnam Wall.

I can see the rebuilding of the towers being a display of strength. I think it might be more appropriate to have a memorial to remind us that bad things can happen.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[cancrman]

out of all the commotion this is the best idea I've heard all day. I do believe this would be the biggest "fuck you" that we could give to whoever was responsible for this.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's make them the tallest buildings in the world.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Veras'Tor]

Rebuilding the towers seems like the best solution. Whether or not the country goes to war or retaliates, reconstruction is surely a sign of American strength. I agree with you totally.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[drodver]

I agree that WTC V2.0 should be built. Those responsible should be put on trial, a counter-strike has an appeal but will only make marters. Putting them in jail would be a much more satisfying punishment. Life in jail would be worse than being killed by a US bomber attack in the middle of the night.

Rebuilding WTC in some form would be the ultimate form of passive resistence.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mad Browser]

Without a doubt.

With utmost respect to the casualties, the USA is bigger than the lives lost today. As a sign of our strength we must rebuild the towers to show that we cannot be thwarted by terrorists.

A memorial is also due course and I'm sure will come to pass but more than that what we owe those who died today is to find the people responsible and make sure something like this never happens again...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

yes rebuild them and and bigger.

not just kinda bigger but absolutly huge.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[RustyTaco]

Why not both? Where better to comemorate the names of those lost than on the base of the new towers. Cover exterior walls of the first one or two floors of the new towers with those engraved steel plates you mentioned.

- RustyTaco

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, unlike the Murrow building, that space should not be made a memorial. Fuck the bastards. We WILL survive despite the craven prick's attempts at cowering us in fear and we will show the world by rebuilding the trade towers.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Teratogen]

No, let's build a mile-high tower on that spot,
a mile-high tower built so that it can't suffer
catastrophic failure if hit by an aircraft. I believe that Richard Buckminster Fuller had plans for a mile high tower, designed on geodesic principals, to be built in Japan. We should dust those plans off.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[oldave]

Rebuild the entire complex. And do the towers as the tallest buildings in the world.

Design in a memorial to those who perished in today's tragedy - the first 2 or 3 floors of each tower, with each person's name engraved in marble.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Niles_Stonne]

I am definitely for the rebuilding of the towers... Whatever they are replaced with should become an image of several things:

Power. The power of our country, and it's ability to create superior technology.

Remembrance. The new building should pay respects to those that died in this horrible incident.

Perspective. We should not dwell on this for the rest of our lives...

Peace. It needs to be a symbol of peace.

Not sure how to get all that into a single building, but I am sure that it can be done.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[InkDancer]

Don't just rebuild them. Make them bigger. So, This attack was iconic, destroying our symbols of prosperity? We'll give them symbols. Make one huge building. Make it bigger than the towers in Kuala Lumpur. Make it a Gigantic Sky Cock ass fucking the Sky into submission. We're like that Guy from Monty Python on smack. Oh yeah? You want to blow our shit up? We'll just rebuild it, twice as big! Fuckers!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Johnny O]

Amen...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mr. Asdf]

interesting idea, and while we're at it, we should rebuild the pentagon too!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rebuild them, with each brick engraved with the name of someone who died. Every brick having a name. Make them taller, use Frank Lloyd Wright's Mile Tall Building design.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Without a doubt! In fact, We should rebuild them not as replicas of what they were, but something better. Make them memorials, and testamonials.

Make WTC V2 the highest buildings on the planet, not just the 5th and 6th.

I just hope they don't call it the
Time Warner Word Trade Center.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[baptiste]

the towers should be re-built

Absolutely! The Democrat in me says we take all teh $$ Bush wants for missle defense and rebuild the towers since now its OBVIOUS missle defense is a folly. They will find a way to attack America. Sure a nuke would have flattened NY, not just the World Trade Center. But those billions could be spent on much better things, even just in a security arena.

But the American in me says -> raise taxes, SS surplus, bonds, even a short term defecit. We need to show the world we will rebuild. We will NOT be cowed. And hte idea of a third tower in teh middle giving the bird to the terrorists - I love it :) It was one of the few times I smiled on this tagic day. And if we find the bastards that did this, let jail them and then toss them off the new WTC buildings into the rubble below :)

I really hope we rebuild the buildings - bigger and better than ever. Tempting fate? Maybe - but its not like fanatics lack targets!

May we find the bastards and wipe them out. God Bless America.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[siegesama]

Bigger towers, stronger, monuments to the American ability to recover and cope. Knock us down and we come back stronger. Veritable monoliths which will stand as a heartstone to New York city. Maybe a single tower, a glory of steel and glass like a cry raised to heaven, spiking into the sky.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you be willing to WORK in the new towers?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Louis_Wu]

Personally, I've been thinking that it might be more appropriate ( than rebuilding the Twin Towers) to level the blocks completely and have everyone's names who dies in this engraved in steel plates, along the lines of the Vietnam Wall.

Compromise: rebuild the Towers, and engrave the names of the dead on the building. A living, working monument. Maybe the first floor outside walls can be marble, with the names engraved; maybe the names can be on the patio tiles around the buildings, or on the floor tiles in the building.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn straight, rebuild the towers. Fuck the bastards.
They're going down one way or another, they will
be found and they will reap what they have sown.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[imadork]

Absolutely.

We could level the site and put up a memorial and a new park, but I feel that the best memorial will be a bigger Trade Center Complex, with two bigger towers, which will become a new symbol of American resiliance.

I grew up in New York City, and I know a bit about the spirit of the city. Its people are all very resiliant, and will show the world that they can handle this tragedy. They will take time to mourn, of course, but after, they will have to go on with their lives. Their lives will be changed, for sure, but they will go on, because they can't live any other way.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

while we're at it, we should rebuild the pentagon too!

Yeah, and while we're at it, we should make the new one with SIX sides, instead of just five!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jae]

absolutely rebuild them - and not only rebuild them, but make them the tallest buildings in the world, and have all other countries who condone this action not only help, but agree never to construct anything larger as to help preserve such a great memorial.

i sit and stare at the nyc skyline every night from my aptartment, and it is amazing. every night it is a little different, and it won't be the same until those towers are back and lighting up the nyc skyline.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course!

Not to demean the immense loss of life that occured this morning, but As of today, there is now a shortage of prime office space in Manhattan. As well as a prime site to develop on!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Just some sobering thoughts for a sobering situation.

These days office space is in a glut. Who is going to fill those enormous towers (esp. given the state of our current economy, which isn't going to be improving any time soon in light of today's events)?

More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?

I agree that it's not necessarily a bad idea, especially as a way of bringing the country together, but these are one of a few realities that such a project would have to face.

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jae]

wow - i've had one too many beers and puffs since i got home today - i mean DO NOT CONDONE - this action is horrible - and i'm sitting here poised over my phone waiting for news that someone is ok.

my appologies to all who read that and wonder what the hell am i thinking/saying.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jae]

what better way to fuel the economy then the gov't saying they will somehow finanace the rebuilding of the towers and thus create massive amounts of jobs in the process.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[cmdr_fishtaco]

great so the terrorist wouldn't actually have to be in the plane when it slams into a building. airlines have become the cruise missle of choice.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Squid]

Sure. Just don't forget to include the giant bullseye on each.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Better would be a giant sole of one's foot point straight at the Middle East. Nothing lost in translation there.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Sir Mix A Lot]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

If ground control can do it, so can I. Or any other determined psycho. Sure it might be _very_ difficult, but everyone knows that most (all?) security can be broken. The first guy to figure it out holds onto it until he can get enough remote control pilots to slam a plane into every building in the nation. It's a good idea, but a lot of precations have to be taken to ensure that this improves everyone's safety, not makes it worse.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[shaum]

After the Murrah Building was destroyed in Oklahoma City, and the wreckage cleared away, it was decided to leave the lot permanently vacant. While I understand the motivation for this decision, I respectfully disagree. There are those (few in number, I hope) who will always see the empty spot where the Murrah building once was as a monument to McVeigh, not to his victims. He left his mark on the city. There is no way that a rebuilt Murrah Building could be so interpreted.

It's up to the New Yorkers themselves, of course, but I hope they do choose to rebuild, and build higher and stronger than before. As Heinlein said, living well is the best revenge.

There is one practical concern, though; a rebuilt WTC would be a target for new attacks. Maybe a SAM battery on the rooftop ...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

now that was actually kind of funny...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jeremi]

If they did rebuild the WTC, what do you think of including some sort of anti-aircraft/anti-missile system on it somewhere? I know it's probably silly, but rebuilding the WTC would be seen as a challenge to the terrorists, and we wouldn't want to have to rebuild it a second time....

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[SmittyTheBold]

NO!

Make it two more sides. I want to be able to call it the Sexagon!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

With all that money that was just given back in the tax rebate?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Xenephrene]

YES! We absolutely should rebuild the towers. Make it single tower a mile high, as suggested earlier. Call it the New America Tower. Because this IS the best damn nation that ever was, and starting today, 275 million people will tell you so.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Good point.

I guess the other alternative is to make airline cockpits damn near impossible to get into during flight, without adding too much weight to the plane.

If they can do it for the tellers at the local burger king, they can do it for airline pilots.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Peace. It needs to be a symbol of peace.

Peace? There will be no peace until the sons of Ishmael are ground beneath the heel of civilized society, until the desert sands are fused into a giant sheet of glass.

There can be no peace with animals who know nothing but war. Genesis 16:12. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Palestinian homeland? I'll give you a homeland, a shallow one, with you face down in it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Detritus]

If you visit the military installations on Hawaii, such as Schofield Barracks, home of the 25th Infantry Division, you can still see bullet holes in some of the buildings from the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. They were intentionally not repaired.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[seann]

I humbly agree.

Although I'd reinstate torture, Voyager style.
So they would have to relive the events of the victims they killed.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[InkDancer]

Excellent! Nothing would make the Giant Sky Cock more intimidating than some gigantic fucking missiles poking out of the side! Ha!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[rice_burners_suck]

I think we should build two very big, very strong pyramids in place of the former two towers. These should be built to withstand multiple missle attacks from outside and bomb attacks from inside.

Furthermore, I heard on the radio that it takes hours to evacuate the twin towers, so taking a lesson from that (and other historical events, such as the sinking of the Titanic) the new pyramids should be designed for complete evacuation within minutes.

Why pyramids? Read 1984.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[seann]

I'd work there.

I'm not american, I'm Canadian, but I wouldn't give into being scared by some terrorists.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

how about a we're being hijacked button, like the silent allarm in a bank. anything suspicious, pilot hits the button.

guess the new buildings should come equiped with anti aircraft armament. guess this calls for better aircraft security on some sort, i mean of all these hijackings, not one was stopped or figured out? that's sad. there has to be a better way. guess we should have military patrols walking the airports like so many other in Europe.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[wwight]

Speaking of three towers, building 7 in the World Trade Complex just collapsed.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mad Browser]

It's feasible... The building was owned by the New York / New Jersey Port Authority, which is a government agency...

It cost $750 million 1970's dollars... Probably twice that to build it now... Still, $1.5 billion is nothing to the federal government, especially in the face of a tragedy like this.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jason Earl]

All that would do is put us at the mercy of the pilots. One crazy in the cockpit would doom everyone on the plane, with nothing any of the passengers could do.

Quite frankly, after today, if I am ever on a plane that is hijacked I plan on doing the only sane thing. I will rush the attackers and pray for a miracle. There were hundreds of people on board those airplanes. If they would have rushed their attackers most of them would have survived, and the WTC would still be standing today.

The only way to win against madman is to oppose them. Damn the costs!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

% rm * .o
rm: .o: No such file or directory
% ls
%
damn

I have a friend who did that one. Damn spaces :) Confucius say he who play as root eventually kill tree.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have ANY idea of how much land your pyramids would need?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the U.S. Space Force does need their own division; the Air Force is getting on their jock.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[ackthpt]

I fully expect the land to be re-used. In depth discussion on the radio, atm, was about how the towers failed and collapsed, and if they had been built with a central column, like the Empire State Building, they would probably not have failed. Recall that a WWII era (B25?) crashed into and remained in the ESB. (Building #7, of the WTC just collapsed, KCBS)

Reinforcement was at the corners. As each floor above dropped debris on a floor below, it would fail, and repeat on downward until the tower "pancaked", same was as demolition. Nice that they didn't fall over lengthwise, at 1350ft, a tower could have taken more life and done more damage, burying more in rubble.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

The capitalist system tend to concentrate, but if many small firm where spread across the country, there would be no easy target.
Show your strength and your arrogance, and you also show everybody where they can hit to hurt you.
So telecommute, don't spend to much in Manhattan, and avoid single point of failure.
Rebuild it if you want, but knowing that you can never really protect it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[theMAGE]

Just make sure to pad the roof with enough SAMs...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Col. Panic]

And if we find the bastards that did this, let jail them and then toss them off the new WTC buildings into the rubble below

Let's douse them in jet fuel and light them on fire first. Sorry - bad day.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[issachar]

I really hope we rebuild the buildings - bigger and better than ever. Tempting fate? Maybe - but its not like fanatics lack targets!

Absolutely. Additionally, it's easier to stop terrorists when you have an idea of what they're trying to hit.

On the other hand, they're not interested in symbolism above all else. After all, they hit the Pentagon, not the White House. (Or was that the target of the 4th plane?)

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mad Browser]

Doubt you have enough room to make pyramids big enough to be effecient uses of space in that area.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only as a memorial to those who died, but also as a sign of this country's strength.

As a New Yorker I loved those towers, but they were very ugly. They were also a symbol of the government getting into things they shouldn't, real estate speculation. And a poor speculation at that, building a huge office building in downtown when most businesses were moving to midtown. Add to that the economy of the city was shrinking at double digit rates for the 10 years before and after...

Did I mention they were ugly?

Something will be rebuilt in their place, but I hope it doesn't get made into a memorial because then it will be demolished. I almost lost a friend today. Can't we convince these people we really really love our politicos/fbi/nsa/cia/military etc?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[stsho]

Yes, but if we dont figure out a better way to resolve our conflicts and live with our neighbors, someone else will just crash an even bigger plane into these bigger towers youre talking about.

Defiance and memorials are all good and well, but theres a fundamental underlying issue here that todays events are simply a symptom of.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Col. Panic]

A mile? I don't know if I would want to go that high up. I once ate dinner at Windows on the World -- too bad it's gone now. That was high enough for me. I really can't imagine a 500 story building.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[alanak]

As much as the towers are symbols of America.
They were owned by a Japanese Corporation.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Regolith]

How about building a cell block in the sub^10 basement of the new towers and imprisoning those responsible there? Surround them with the evidence that America will not be beaten into submission. Even bigger "F@$# You" to the bastards.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[zeda]

I understand that pilots are heavily tested, medically and psychologically on a regular basis. The chance of getting a disturbed commerical pilot in the cockpit is pretty slim I would think.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Nick]

Rebuilding should be a priority. The place I live in was raided during the civil war. There is a hotel here (The Eldridge) which had been burned down a couple times.

The owner vowed to rebuild it and put an additional story every time it burnt down. Not only did it bring a sense of pride to the community but it let others know that we were broken by cowardly acts of violence and terrorism.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to send some money to the Israeli government, but this sounds like a much better idea!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[panck]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Yeah but then there would be another way to hijack a plane, without even getting on it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Dexx]

Personally, I think that this would be a bad idea. People have responded saying it would be a sign of strength and a big "fuck you" to other groups.

It would also be an even larger target than the first WTC.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they werent. The whole complex was owned by the NY Port Authority.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Have Blue]

The non-centralized design of the WTC towers was what allowed them to survive the 1993 bombing (in fact, I recall an architect saying that the building is basically immune to a single reasonably-sized bomb). You just can't win them all...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Have Blue]

Building WAS immune. I guess I still haven't fully accepted this...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[mr_don't]

Maybe a sign of our strength would be to feed our citizens, stop arming Israel, and prevent homelessness...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[quasipunk guy]

Yeah, and paint them with a nice concentric circle motif...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[NMerriam]

Tell that to the people who died on the Air Egypt flight (in which the pilot committed suicide and took a few hundred people with him)

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Talaran]

.. Or perhaps some sort of sophisticated mechanism for ensuring the guy flying the plane is actually the real pilot/copilot. Retinal scan, fingerprint scan, whatever. Trigger an emergency beacon or autopilot or some such if it's not.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[jmckinney]

I had a similar idea, but it involved constructing the largest, most technologically advanced, and most impressive single structure possible to our civilization at it's current stage. I figure that that's the best way to throw it back into their teeth.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[turbodog42]

According to CNN, they were owned by New York-based Larry Silverstein Properties and Los Angeles-based Westfield America Properties.

See this article.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[drc500free]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Then when five terrorists break into a control tower they can control any plane in the US? The reason that this attack didn't occur earlier was because of the difficulty in executing a multi-pronged attack. Putting all of our eggs in one basket could spell disaster.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Shadowhawk]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

This is a terrible idea. Are you willing to say any level of security would be sufficient to protect the plane from being taken over by terrorrists without boarding the plane?

I'm not nor would I want to be on a plane that has this liabilty, even with the best encryption on it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[thogard]

They can do that with their transponders.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[haruharaharu]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Then you could hijack a plane without stepping on board.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[sigwinch]

After the Murrah Building was destroyed in Oklahoma City, and the wreckage cleared away, it was decided to leave the lot permanently vacant. While I understand the motivation for this decision, I respectfully disagree. There are those (few in number, I hope) who will always see the empty spot where the Murrah building once was as a monument to McVeigh, not to his victims. He left his mark on the city. There is no way that a rebuilt Murrah Building could be so interpreted.

You are not alone in feeling this way. There are many here in Oklahoma -- including me -- who also thought that the best monument to the victims would be a new federal building. Unfortunately the busybodies and bureaucrats have a way of dominating such things.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse me, but to expect any tower like design to withstand that sort of impact is completely unreasonable. Oh, what do you mean we didn't design it to withstand a impact from perhaps a million pounds traveling at 500mph. Come on now. At least the second inpact went THROUGH the building. Right through the middle. Jet fuel burns at 3000+F. After burning for that amount of time the steel simply couldn't take the strain and collapsed.

Also, ever compare the size of a B25 to a 767?

B25: 67' wingspan, 53' length. full load of about 42,000lbs. ~1000 gals fuel

767-300(not sure what model it was: 156' wingspan, 180' length. full load of 412,000lbs. 24,000gals of fuel.

Now, you are going to compare these two impacts on the same terms? Give me a break.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[YKnot]

Adding to what others said about remote controlled planes not being a good idea, I would like to point out that you are focussing on airline security now because this terrorist attack involved planes. There is no reason to think that the next attack will be carried out the same way.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[nbvb]

They are OWNED by the PANYNJ (Port Authority of New York & New Jersey). They're LEASED by the 2 companies above...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Maybe I should clarify...

"As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?"

read: a hijacked plane. not *any* plane, but one that's already been hijacked. Reinforce the cockpit door and walls, add a system where the pilots could monitor the cabin via hidden video cameras, and where they could notify ground sources of their situation if necessary, and in case of breach, hand control of the aircraft over to ground control. However, this hand-off could only be initiated by the aircraft itself. The facial/fingerprint recognition is a good idea as well.

This way a hijack would need to be two-pronged. It would have to attack the plane, but also take hte ground control. Exponentially harder to coordinate.

As another poster already mentioned, 90% of the systems are already in place. Autopilot is used all the time during takeoff and landing.

One other failsafe possibility. Install a safety mechanism to handover control of air traffic from one tower to another in case of attack. For those of you who never saw "pushing tin" or any documentaries on air traffic control, skilled terrorists could probably do 10x the damage they did today if they had targeted the towers at laguardia, newark, and JFK all at once, and directed the aircraft to fly into eachother.

But i'm sure you've all seen Die Hard 2...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

this whole thread makes me sick.
you guys are doing the stereotype of rabidly patriotic wacko americans proud.

one of those replies said one floor for every person killed??
you ppl are demented.

this reminds me of a sullen little child getting beat up and spending the next week crafting elaborate revenge scenarios...
"ya! put a SAM battery on the roof!!"
freaks.

why not do some research into what the US does to make itself the most hated nation on the planet. and no, it's not because it's successful.

now i remember why i hate slashdot.
and just so no one else has to mention it, i'm leaving right now.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[ngm]

Especially given that the hijackers where only armed with knives according to reports. If that's the case and I'm on the plane my plan is to rush them, hopefully with a few of my fellow passengers.

Unfortunately people are sheep.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Someone could hijack ground control or use the same mechanism used by ground control to fly virtually any plane into the buildings. Hijackers won't even have to be on the plane!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[IronChef]

Not only should they be rebuilt, they should be made into a monument of all that is American, a thorn in the side of all the nuts who hate us. The new towers should be much bigger... plated in gold... with a giant stock ticker across the sides, so big and bright that you can see it from space.

The new towers should be bristling with lasers and radar. They should have a 150-plex movie theater inside, and a professional wrestling stadium on the top, just to annoy the rest of the world with our strange taste in "sports."

OK, so I am being a little ridiculous. But yes... rebuild. No placid memorial parks... we need a monument that honors the TRUE spirit of what was lost. Working buildings are the best way to do that.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dazed-n-confused]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

So terrorists can take over ground control and turn any number of planes into missiles? Not a very good idea.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

good point.

but, a plane is an excellent weapon and easy prey(as has most unfortunately been demonstrated today). they will be targeted again.

what other types of attacks (besides car-bombs) should be be worrying about? EMP?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[angelo]

Unfortunately, I doubt there would be a firm willing and capable of building the MTB by FLW. IIRC, that building had a rather large footprint, and it would be difficult to squeeze it in. Not that I wouldn't mind them trying -- I'm a big FLW fan.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[p-naut]

Remember what happened to the *second* Death Star?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Pig Hogger]

Speaking of three towers, building 7 in the World Trade Complex just collapsed.

Hell, make it four towers!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Schwarzchild]

Rushing hijackers sounds like a good idea and is something I would probably do too unfortunately people are sheep and probably wouldn't help you to disarm the terrorists.

Btw, the hijackers on one of the planes stabbed a couple of flight attendants before breaking into the cockpit.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

"As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane? "

...and give hi-tech terrorist an oppurtunity to crack the security and crash them from the ground?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Five towers!
Why not make it a whole hand?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[ArtDent]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

That struck me as a good idea when I first read it. Then, I read all of the replies: that would make it easier to hijack planes; why not have an emergency auto-landing mechanism triggered by the captain?

Good points. My idea is to combine those suggestions: all that ground control can do is initiate this emergency sequence. That way, the pilot wouldn't have to do anything, but if (when) someone did crack it, all they would be able to do is make the plane land, not crash it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

You rock!!! That is the most ingenious thing I heard all day!

Moderators: This is definitely +5 material.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[PD]

Absolutely. Babylon 5 was the 5th of the stations to be built. The others were lost in various acts of sabotage or distortions of time and space.

The point? Well, Cmdr. Sinclair explained that when we humans value something we build it again and again until we get it right. That's a nice sentiment.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is hijacked planes usually aren't used for this sort of thing. Most of the time, most of the people probably come of out the hijacking just fine. I'm sure if they knew the hijackers would kill them all plus an order of magnitude more people, the passengers would rush the hijackers, but if they're expecting to mostly be fine after a little bit, it's a different matter.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[DavidBrown]

Instead of reinforcing the cockpit door, remove it and provide a separate entrance for the cockpit crew with a relatively thick bulkhead between the cockpit and the passenger cabin. If we make it impossible, under any circumstances, for passengers to get into the cockpit, we would prevent this sort of tragedy from happening again.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[lsemel]

We should build a new set of towers on the site -- not necessarily identical to the original -- incorporating a memorial to today's tragedy. The twin towers are not only a powerful symbol, but were part of our daily lives as New Yorkers. Their absence will serve a daily reminder that terrorists have won.

Some say nobody would want to work there. But terrorists can attack anywhere. Should we abandon all our other prominent buildings, out of fear?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[crucini]

There is one practical concern, though; a rebuilt WTC would be a target for new attacks.

Give it an agile foundation, and put a kid with a joystick up on the observation deck. When he sees a plane coming, he just sways the building to avoid it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[crucini]

Yes! So when a plane crashes into the pyramid (illustration: /\- ) it will be harmlessly deflected upwards! The cap of the pyramid will be a ten-foot iron pyramid that is not attached. That way, a bomb detonating inside the pyramid will blow the cap off, preventing a pressure buildup inside. The outsides of the pyramid will be smooth material coated in grease. That way, people can evacuate by sliding down the sides, which meets your criterion for rapid evacuation.

Only one problem - after all these precautions, how do we know the terrorists will hit the pyramids? Were they attracted by the WTC's form or function? Maybe if we paint a huge eye on the side of the pyramid the terrorists will associate it with the dollar bill and see it as the oligarchic conspiracy that controls America.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[crucini]

Yup. And let's put it out in the Nevada desert. And make fake cars in the parking lot (painted concrete cars.) And animated sillhouettes of people counting huge bags of money in the windows. So when they blast it nobody is actually hurt. Except maybe the guy who changes the lightbulbs.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[kroymen]

If ground control could seize control of a hijacked plane, we should all know as technologists that others will eventually be able to take control as well. If that happened, we wouldn't even need crazed suicide bombers to pilot the planes; they could instead be ramming landmarks with 747's like kids playing with their RC model planes at a park.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Paul Komarek]

I don't believe that suicide was ever determined beyond reasonable doubt. Did I miss something?

-Paul Komarek

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mad Marlin]

interesting idea, and while we're at it, we should rebuild the pentagon too!

Actually, that isn't necessary. The pentagon was built to be a major military installation (translation: fortress), and fared much better. There are people in it right now, still at work.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[pexatus]

"As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?" Which gives the terrorists another way to hijack a plane. In fact, they don't even have to be suicidal to hijack a plane remotely; it doesn't take much resolve to sit in a barca-lounger on the front lawn with a joystick, a radio transmitter, and a six-pack.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

But the American in me says -> raise taxes, SS surplus, bonds, even a short term defecit. That's the Democrat in you too.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[MulluskO]

Earlier today, on NPR I heard the poet laureate of the United States,Billy Collins, suggest that the vaccum left by the destruction of the huge structures serve as a memorial, as no memorial we build could surpass the awe-inspiring stature of the original buildings.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Perhaps this is flamebait, but you guys are kind of missing the point with your knee-jerk reactions.

First of all, large parts of takeoff and landing in modern airliners is *already* automated.

Second of all, air traffic control towers are *already* targets. Thank god nobody targeted those today, or we would have seen much worse.

The best suggestions i've heard all day are to seal the pilots off from the rest of the airplane (still doesn't fix the semtex problem), and to place plainclothes security on flights.

Anyone else actually have any decent ideas or are people more interested in James Bond-ian fantasies of Bloefeld controlling the plane with a joystick?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Combuchan]

I fucking liked the NYC skyline the way it was before those maniacs wrecked it. And I'll be goddamned if I'm going to let them take that away from me!

ahem ...

When this is all over, we'll return to the vacant lot in which on one fateful day, thousands perished and America again lost its innocence.

We as a nation are weakened by 11th September, but, since we're America, we'll come back twice as strong.
The best way you can let a terrorist win is to let him know we're still limping from his actions. I hate to paraphrase from a movie, but The Siege said it best. Terrorist blow up the market, the next day, the market is bustling. The longer we lick our wounds, the longer we let chaos ensue, and the farther away from the day befor this happened ultimately translates to a longer terrorist victory party. And while it may seem insensitive, everytime a New Yorker walks by the site where the Towers once stood and shakes her head at a memorial site or a nondescript office building, we cede a small victory to terrorism.

The key word is terror, and we musn't let them win!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Combuchan]

More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?

Our strength lies in our ability to rebuild. And before you say "rebuilding another target", I have news for you.

Little to the terrorists realize, they've awaken a sleeping giant, the United States of America. The fire that will rain down on any country or organization that harbors terrorism or so much as scoffs at the American flag will be hundreds of times greater than that of what the Iraqis felt during Desert Storm.

If we do this right, and I know we will, Islamistic terrorism will have, well, died out.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[SmittyTheBold]

dangit, I always knew math would find a way to hunt me down and bitch-slap me with the cold-hard truth.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Our citizens ARE fed, to the point of obesity.

We arm the Israelis to fight back against crazy-fucker terrorists like your friendly Palestinians seen today celebrating in the streets.

Most of the homeless in America are deinstitutionalized mental patients and stoners. What the fuck are we supposed to do about that?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Borogove]

Yes - all they'd need would be a portable computer running MovieOS and a satellite uplink, and they'd instantly have control over every plane in the sky.

Show a little imagination guys. It's going to happen eventually - and hopefully the people who design will be readers of comp.risks. They will think of things like authentication, single-point of failure, and provide a system where the pilot, copilot or autopilot can countermand instructions from ATC.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[jarty]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Surely this presents a greater danger as hijackers need only take over ground control in order to terrorise planes by remote control!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[plumby]

Well, improving security at airports for domestic flights might be a start. At least 4 (probably several times more) people managed to get on these planes with knives, and who knows what else, without anyone noticing.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[baptiste]

That's the Democrat in you too. Funny, I thought using up the SS surplus and running defecits were something Republicans loved! Sure seem slike it anyway.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[hardburn]

everyone knows that most (all?) security can be broken

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[hardburn]

Sorry, my pinky hit enter too soon. What I ment to say was:

"Most security can be broken" is correct. A One Time Pad (OTP) will theoreticly give you absolute security (provided you generate it with truely random values and you completely destroy the OTP after one use). Despite giving you absolute secrity, OTPs are generaly impractical for real world situations.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[AlgUSF]

I believe they should be rebuilt on the same location, and the plaza should be turned into a huge memorial. I would like to see two taller structures (~20-30 stories taller), kinda like we are bigger, and "we aren't going to take your shit".

Just my $.02

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[meldroc]

Posting armed security personnel on the flights would be the best plan. Not only would it be effective against hijackers, it would also have the welcome side effect of making the crews prepared to deal with air rage incidents.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

No! 4 towers! Make it a cartoon hand!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[pik0]

No

I think that, in no way, should the towers-of-doom be rebuilt. In this, what can be termed, the internet-age, there really is no reason for so many people who are critical to the economic operation of our country (indeed the world), to all be placed, 25,000 at a time, in such highly targetable death-traps.

It has become abundantly clear to me that, the concept of the World Trade Center should be built, but that each of the cogs in this, a large and complex wheel, should be placed in many remote and disparate locations around the US.

Because we have the technology, there is no reason that we should ever again provide our enemies with such easily assailable targets.

Andrew

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[DunbarTheInept]

I think you are operating under the assumption that the passengers knew what the hijackers were planning on doing. It wouldn't surprise me if the hijakers managed to keep the passengers ignorant of what they were really planning.

Sure, you'd be willing to rush the hijakers if you *knew* they were going to ram the plan into a building. But if you just thought they were going to land at a different airport and begin negotiations, would you still be willing to give it a try then? I think at that point you'd still be in the "nice doggy" stage of diplomacy ("Diplomacy means saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a stick.") If you thought you were going to be landing, you'd probably want to wait for the landing before trying anything drastic.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Anonymous Coward]

it is a troll, or you really think what you write?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[NMerriam]

The egyptian government was never willing to accept it (nor his family) because of the taboo on suicide in islam. But he said something before taking the plane down (can't remember what right now) along the lines of a suicidal goodbye, and he was having a lot of personal issues at home with his family. it was open and closed pretty fast by the NTSB, FBI and everyone else...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[zeda]

And that is 1 case in how many. Slim chances. Although I understand the military has had some cases of planes just flying off and crashing into things that might be suicide. Some things we will never know due to the correct laws surrounding CVR releases. That is what is holding up cockpit video recording AFIAK, there aren't laws protecting them yet.

News Links

[FFFish]

From a site that seems to be working well:

World Leaders react -- "The following are reactions from around the world to the disasters at New York's World Trade Centre and the Pentagon."

Related Links -- US Gov't, US Military, NYC, Airlines, and Anti-Terrorism Resources.

Who Dunnit -- the BBC "Within minutes of the horrific chain of events unfolding at the World Trade Center, information began emerging suggesting it was not a terrible accident but a terrorist attack."

World Shock -- BBC "The attacks on New York and Washington have brought swift reactions of horror and condemnation from around the world."

Notable quotable: "But Iraqi television played a patriotic song that begins "Down with America!" as it showed the World Trade Center's towers falling, The Associated Press news agency reported."

America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed. :-(

Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act.

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.

The more I watch this on television, the less real it becomes. Repetition = numb.

Re:News Links

[geekoid]

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush.

This is true, we need to prevent the kind of knee jerk reaction that created interment camps for the Japanese American.


This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians

Terrorist orginizations are global, Bin Laden(as an example) has a great many people in the origization he leads.

At this time AFAIK, there has been no proof of whom is behind this terible and cowardly act.

The mid east was the first reaction to the OK bombings.

Re:News Links

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush.
---
i agree with the sentiment, but at the same time, don't forget the scenes of palestinians celebrating in the streets and treating this as a holiday, giving candy to the kids, etc., Iraqi television played patriotic songs over the WTC collapsing, textbooks in the schools run by the Palestinian Authority teach kids _history_ that it's inevitable that all Jews be killed and Israel be exterminated, that anyone who kills a Jew goes to heaven, etc. ... while I know many Arabs who I am sure abhore this sort of act, anti-US terrorist acts flows directly from their anti-US rhetoric, and you can't advocate murder without taking responsibility for those murders.

Re:News Links

[FFFish]

Troops deployed in response to Pentagon attack -- (Canada's) National Post. Please ignore the very, very tacky graphics and tabloid-like banner.

Canadian border open, airline travellers stranded -- ditto. Note that many aircraft were diverted to Canadian airports. If you know someone who was on a flight, they may be in Canada right now.

The National newscast says that the US military just brought in an aircraft to Vancouver (BC) airport; no news on why.

Canada dot com -- looks like WIC (a media conglomerate) has created a site that encompasses news from BCTV, Vancouver Sun, etc. I can't get the links to work, but some look interesting.

Christian Science Monitor -- don't be put off by the title: it's a *very* high-quality paper.

The Village Voice -- not sure how high-quality this will be, but it has an amazing photo, plus information on the DFLP.

Boston Globe -- again, good quality reporting. There's a Breaking News page as well. Indeed, their breaking news is great.

PLEASE POST LINKS TO FOREIGN MEDIA. I've been searching, but I simply don't know the names for any English foreign media, save the BBC.

Re:News Links

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.

Very true, and, while I sincerely hope the U.S. identifies those responsible and narrowly targets any retaliation, many mid-East civilians also celebrated the attack, according to this article:

However, in the West Bank city of Nablus, thousands of Palestinians celebrated the attack by chanting "God is Great!" and distributing candy to passers-by.

I know I cannot begin to understand the suffering and depth of feeling on all sides in the Middle East, but I am truly saddened by the photo of children with flags celebrating the deaths of others (including, most likely, other children), and, no matter how hard I try, I cannot imagine a God who would condone such a tragedy.

Re:News Links

[FFFish]

Without doubt, there are wingnuts within the USA currently whooping it up that the country was attacked.

Which, I think, would just prove that there are deeply fucked-up people the world over.

Rather than judge entire nations/cultures based on a couple photographs of some fucked-up people, it'd be a bit more wise to seek out better information on the reaction of the population as a whole.

IF most of [name your most-hated mid-East country here] reacts with joy, then I think one can justifiably react angrily toward them.

Otherwise, you'd just be punishing a majority of innocents for the actions of a fucked-up minority.

Re:News Links

[FarHat]

Some good foreign (mostly Indian) news sites that are still holding on:

The times of india.

Indian Express

NDTV news.

Sify news

Rediff News

Hindustan Times

Internet News

Cnet.com

Re:News Links

[ACK!!]

Gosh as I watch television, it has hard not to be repulsed at watching kids in lebanon walking around with Palestinian flags celebrating the loss of life here.

It is hard to restrain the anger and the hate. Even though, I should and I will.

A very small radical group of thousands of people in Palestine, Iraq, Iran and other places are dancing in the streets on the symbolic backs of our dead.

Sure that makes me feel very moderate.

I understand you are pleading for Americans to make sure they know who is behind this.

The leaders of Mid-East want the US to buy their oil and other stuff so they want to appear moderate. The people themselves are looking very barbaric right now.

Re:News Links

[larien]

America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed. :-(

Think back a mere 15 years to our view on the USSR; half the country was afraid of a nuclear holocaust as USA and USSR blew each other up, but now they are allies, albeit not very close ones. Given the religous views prevalent in Iraq, it makes such a transformation unlikely (USSR was Communist, but religous views are, IMHO, harder to change). However, it's still possible but likely to require the removal of Saddam Hussein from power. Things change, sometimes faster than you can imagine.

In any event, I think it most likely that some religous group perpetrated this terrible act as religous fundamentals are the most likely to be willing to die for their cause.

Re:News Links

[jafac]

Don't paint the whole middle east with the same brush?

How about the same brush these "Martyrs" painted US with? The innocent civillians, women and children who died this morning? Did these people build houses in the West Bank? Did these people deny jobs to Palestinians in Israel?

If there's any misplaced rage or hatred directed at other peoples in the Middle East, if any innocent person is killed in the revenge process that will definately ensue from today's action - the responsibility for this falls squarly on the shoulders of:

The "Martyrs" who perpetrated this act. Now roasting in hell.
The others in their organizations that helped plan and prepare this.
The political leaders of the Middle East and their bloodthirsty rhetoric that encourage this.
The people we see on TV, cheering as footage of this event is played over and over.
The moslems in the United States and elsewhere who send money to FUND these groups and their activities.
The religious leaders of the Islamic religion, both in the Middle East, and in the US, and elsewhere, who preach hatred and intolerance of Amercans and Jews and anyone who is not a Moslem - don't tell me that I'm racist for saying this, I have moslem friends, and they tell me what they hear in the mosque.

These people could not have done their own cause a more gross disservice. They shall now reap what they have sown.

Re:News Links

[elmegil]

How many people are staying home in these places? How much you wanna bet we never see any coverage of that?

Re:News Links

[Evangelion]

Do you actually have any proof of those statements, or are you just talking what you wish out of your ass?

Re:News Links

[megaduck]

First of all, thanks for the links.

Yeah, many Middle Eastern leaders are denouncing this. That's merely a "cover your ass" move and it's almost a brainstem function for governmental leaders. Actions speak louder than words, and today was a pretty big action by somebody.

This was an Act of War by any standard definition. If it was a radical terrorist group, then then anyone harboring him has two choices:

1. Give up the responsible party.
2. Go to war with the United States.

Frankly, neither Afghanistan or Palestine seems likely to take option 1. Personally, I hope that it's just a cell that we can vent our wrath upon instead of a state-backed thing. Because if there is even a hint of national backing, then may God have mercy on their souls.

Re:News Links

[stew-a-cide]

In all fairness the US (or atleast the American media) doesn't seem to concerned about the loss of life in Palastine/Isreal either. Loss of life perpertrated with American money, arms, and international clout.

Re:News Links

[sigwinch]

Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act. Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.

Is it even certain yet that the attackers are Middle Eastern? After the Murrah building bombing in Oklahoma City there was considerable harrasment of Middle Eastern immigrants in the area, it being a forgone conclusion that those goddamn raghead extremist fureners did it. Which looked pretty stupid when it turned out to have been an American, and a former US soldier at that!

People, remember that there are plenty of violent, organized fools right here in the US: anarchists, cults, people who think the South Shall Rise Again, and so forth. It does look suspiciously like a foreign attack, but don't jump to conclusions. There will be a hell of a lot of evidence, from surveillance tapes at the airports where they embarked, to radio reports from the pilots, perhaps even cell-phone reports from airline passengers. FBI field agents were no doubt on their way to the airports within a couple of hours of the attacks. If these terrorists are as incompentent as terrorists usually are, there will be tons of good, solid evidence against them, and in the meantime it would be a Bad Thing to jump to any political conclusions.

As for the Palestinians and Iraqis celebrating: big deal. If California slid off into the sea, they'd celebrate. Condeming the US is a hobby/spectator sport for them.

Re:News Links

[sigwinch]

Very true, and, while I sincerely hope the U.S. identifies those responsible and narrowly targets any retaliation, many mid-East civilians also celebrated the attack...

As did many Americans celebrate the death of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers in their bunkers, after which they put "Nuke Iraq" bumper stickers on their cars (remember those?). Judge not lest you be judged.

Re:News Links

[Pig Hogger]

The "Martyrs" who perpetrated this act. Now roasting in hell.

They are indeed martyrs; they performed the ultimate sacrifice for the cause they were fighting for. And for this, they were promised a place in heaven by their mollahs.

The political leaders of the Middle East and their bloodthirsty rhetoric that encourage this.

Yeah, israeli leaders are quite savages; their treatment of the palestinians over the years has been pretty appaling.

The people we see on TV, cheering as footage of this event is played over and over.

Hey! All their life, all they've seen was bullets and bombs coming from jews, bullets and bombs that have been largely funded by the United States. It's quite normal to see them cheer then the main sponsor of their oppressors has been hurt.

How many jews around the world cheers each time a palestinian house is bulldozed in Gaza, or some rock-toting arab kid is shot dead by well-armed israeli troops?

The moslems in the United States and elsewhere who send money to FUND these groups and their activities.

How about the american jews who send money to israel to fund their state-terrorism?

How about the american jews who control the medias (just watch the generic of anything you see on TV) and thus control the opinion in order to subvert democracy for it to support israel?

The religious leaders of the Islamic religion, both in the Middle East, and in the US, and elsewhere, who preach hatred and intolerance of Amercans and Jews and anyone who is not a Moslem - don't tell me that I'm racist for saying this, I have moslem friends, and they tell me what they hear in the mosque.

The jews who relentlessly paint arabs as ignorant, intolerant racist bigots, while all they do is defend their own country that has been stolen from them thanks to horribly misguided policy achieved through subversion of their democratic institutions?

These people could not have done their own cause a more gross disservice. They shall now reap what they have sown.

Indeed, the americans are reaping what they have sown with their horribly misguided, self-centered foreign and economic policies...

Re:News Links

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh... now we have an excuse to nuke Iraq into oblivion. Maybe that'll wipe the smirks off their faces.

Re:News Links

[SuperRob]

I fully agree. I cannot beleive that other human beings would willfully CELEBRATE the cowardly murder of innocent life such as the images I saw from Palastine today.

I have never seen our country dancing in the streets when we attacked anyone ...

Re:News Links

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right about not jumping to conclusions, but there are too many signs pointing to this being a foreign attack. The most important of these is the fact that these were suicide missions. What other group besides Muslim fundamentalists advocate such a thing? Certainly none of the groups you mentioned. Even Timothy McVeigh only drove the truck to the front of the Murrah Building and left it there.

Re:News Links

[tftp]

One of russian newspapers: infamous Pravda. The translation is awful but you can get the news.

Re:News Links

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you ever realize that what you see is dictated by CNN?

Re:News Links

[Cplus]

I can understand how one might think that CNN would have the ability to pick and choose what they show, certainly that is true, but do realize that this did happen and that it would have have been unethical of any news organization to not cover it.

The world is not out to get you.

Re:News Links

[Kalani]

Indeed, the americans are reaping what they have sown with their horribly misguided, self-centered foreign and economic policies...

I'm not going to argue any of the comments that our country has done harmful things (like arming Israel) but I'd like you to point out one thing that we've done that justifies what has happened today. When did we directly kill what could be 20,000 civilians?

Re:News Links

[ACK!!]

This I will reply to. It is unfair to say that the American media is not concerned about the loss of life in Palestine.

If you said the media is unconcerned about the loss of life in Africa or in Cambodia during the seventies for example I would have agreed.

However, not only does the media cover the Mid East crisis but they keep repeating with every casualty toll that the majority of casualties are from Palistinian.

Re:News Links

[jafac]

Excuse me, Mr. STUPID FUCKHEAD Jews-run-the-world-and-control-the-media conspiracy theorist.

But flying a passenger jet into a building filled with civilians is NOT "defending their own country". That's not the opinion of someone brainwashed by a Jewish-controlled media machine. That's the opinion of a civilized human being. You should try being one sometime.

The ones who did this, and those who supported them, either materially, or ideologically, should be put down like the dogs they are.

Yes, I'm saying that includes you, fuckwad.

video clips

[slhack3r]

i have video clips of the WTC attacks taken off the networks here

Time to wake up...

[telbij]

Hopefully this will put things in perspective for Americans. The demand for more security spending and protection you can hear already is astounding, but sooner or later we will have to realize that we can't keep building our castle walls higher and higher. The only way we can be safe, is by treating the rest of the world with respect instead of pushing people around so we can get richer.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing the United States has ever done justifies this.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

The only way we can be safe, is by treating the rest of the world with respect instead of pushing people around so we can get richer. v

Flicking a giant is no way to teach it a lesson.

Re:Time to wake up...

[malfunct]

And then the terrorists have won. Thats exactly what they want is to steal the power of the US by fear.

I don't advocate random attacks or large scale retaliation but I also know that we must continue to live our lives or we lost because we are controled by the people that perpetrated this attack.

Re:Time to wake up...

[mjoconnor81]

The only way to be safe is by treating the rest of the world with respect instead of pushing people around so we can get richer?

this offends me. the united states gives more to the world peace than any other nation. we act like the world police force. we help people in need, we do everything in our power to assist other nations. We try to help every way we know how, and this is the thanks we get. this should be a wake up call, but not one which shows us that should respect the world, we already respect the world. This wakeup call should prove that the world does not give us the same respect that we give them.

Re:Time to wake up...

[baby_head_rush]

Who are we pushing around?!

We've been taking the hands-off stance of late. We've said "knock it off" to both parties. Do you really want to send troops there to get stuck in the cross-fire? I doubt Palestine and Isreal want us there.

We have not been the agressors on anyones soil. This is an act of war. Whomever is found responsable will be punished!

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw you. What we need to do is flatten these bastards. Bomb 'em back to whatever stone-age pit they crawled out of. Treat others with respect? Fuck you. You don't have a CLUE, do you? They sure showed US a whole lot of respect, eh? We need to find the responsible parties and make sure they cease to exist. We send a message, loud and clear, that you don't FUCK with America. You don't attack civilian targets and then run and hide like children playing ding-dong-ditch. If you kill Americans, we kill you. It's that simple.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am so sorry for your loss. You have to realize that telbij's idea is the only effective solution to this problem.

Re:Time to wake up...

[TWR]

The only way we can be safe, is by treating the rest of the world with respect instead of pushing people around so we can get richer.

No, the only way we can be safe is by getting rid of the fucks who inspire, incite, and fund this. We KNOW who pays for terrorism. Hell, Iran has it as an entry in their offical state budget! Bomb the fuckers.

We may not know exactly who did this ONE atrocity, but we know the names and the addresses of the people responsible for many others. Get them now. Never give them quarter. This is war, and people who talk about "treating the world with respect" should look up "Sudatenland" in their encyclopedias.

-jon

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think that they did this, because they want respect? Get real.

Re:Time to wake up...

[telbij]

I'm afraid many of you anonymous cowards (log in please) need to step outside of your privileged American lives and learn about the reality of life in impoverished countries.

Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.

Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.

You have to step outside of your capitalism-brainwashed, MTV-soaked minds and realize that the people who are propagating this kind of terrorism FEAR NOTHING because they do not value the world order. The only way to stomp out these terrorists would be mass genocide. If you are advocating mass genocide then you REALLY need to check your righteous self, because America is anything but a model of ethical international relations.

I repeat myself now, because this is the absolute truth. If America continues it's greedy self-serving ways, this is only the beginning of the tragedy that will strike us. It's time to embrace our success as a way to benefit the world.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Pinchy]

the united states gives more to the world peace than any other nation. we act like the world police force. we help people in need, we do everything in our power to assist other nations.

You need to turn off the tv and get out more, or at least read a book? You really have to work at being this ignorant about US foreign policy over the past century. US foreign policy is not based on what is best for everyone else in the world, it is based on what is best for the US in the world. We help others to help ourselves and we punish those that don't help us.

If by "assist other nations" you mean selling arms to brutal dictatorships and supporting governments at war with their own people and overlooking near genocidal atrocities (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to find recent examples of these), then yes, the US may well lead the world in this category.

It is typical of Americans to think that anybody who opposes US policy or is angry with America must be some sort of religious fanatic with a death wish, because we Americans can't fathom that much of our wealth and vast resources and cheap oil might have come at the expense of others. Maybe if we try treating the rest of the world with the same amount of respect that we expect from others, the world might become a safer place.

This may have been a wake up call, but the call is to all Americans to get their heads out of the sand and start taking some responsibility for the actions of the US throughout the world. America has a lot of blood on its hands and if we don't do something to stop the bleeding we will only see more terrorism on US soil.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Iguanaphobic]

this offends me. the united states gives more to the world peace than any other nation. we act like the world police force. we help people in need, we do everything in our power to assist other nations. We try to help every way we know how, and this is the thanks we get

Except pay your U.N. bills.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Flicking a giant is no way to teach it a lesson." The only thing giant about the USA is the size of its ego.

Re:Time to wake up...

[maelstrom10]

This is absurd. When did we become responsible for the welfare of every other country in the world? As someone else stated earlier, we do more to help poor nations than all of the rest of the world put together. And exactly who are we "oppresing"?

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

in the late 1700s the most feared empire in the world was beat in a war by a bunch of untrained commoners using then unheard of tactics in defense of their god given rights. And eventually the enemies of that giant empire gave guns and people to this band of upstarts not because of those inaliable rights but because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But if the american revolution happened in the age of television and uninformed citezens, would geroge washington be called a terrorist?

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

We KNOW who pays for terrorism. Hell, Iran has it as an entry in their offical state budget! Bomb the fuckers.

You, the idiot with the big SUV and your neighbour with his big SUV are paying money for this terrorism. You are buying OIL from them.

Re:Time to wake up...

[baby_head_rush]

As I replied before. Who are we oppressing?

Yes, America is a privledged country. Does that give somebody the right to target civilians?!

The people who did this DO NOT want to live within this system. They want to destroy it.

We have embargos against countries we don't agree with. Let them embargo against us... Ah yeah, they don't have anything that we want.

Re:Time to wake up...

[TWR]

Iranian oil is not sold in the US.

And I don't drive an SUV.

The Europeans are awash in blood money, though.

-jon

Re:Time to wake up...

[de Selby]

The US did alot of things during the cold war, but it was still a war of sorts.

Have they done anything since?

Re:Time to wake up...

[13Echo]

Fuck You! I am so sick of you self righteous foreign assholes that think that you have a clue about how American's all work and act. I don't even know why I am responding to you, as what you write is obviously just bullshit, aimed to piss people off. You obviously haven't got a clue about what you talk about. Say what you want, but most American's embrace the idea of peace. I am so fucking sorry that we haven't experienced your sad pathetic fucking righteous life. YOu hate our ways, and you hate our culture. What you fail to realize is that your people make up part us. Why doesn't that make sense to you? Ignorant fucking retards like you are merely jealous because you can't get your act or brain together to develop a successful economy. Where the fuck do you live? Obviously nowhere all that spectacular, or else you wouldn't be so envious of American's that it makes you angry. You probably have never fucking met an American in your entire life. GET A FUCKING GRIP! THE WHOLE WORLD CAN BE GREEDY AND SELF SERVING! Quit blaming us for whatever insecurities that you have.

Once again. Fuck you! It's a shame that you feel no sadness for the people that died today. I know that I don't look on the news and laugh and mock the people that are killing eachother in other countries. Keep it up though, asshole. Then perhaps, you will make us all wish that your country is the one that gets turned into a nuked shit stain as a result of this. I will certainly have no sympathy for you after the bullshit remarks that you said.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

FUCK YOU buddy.

We were not "GIVEN" anything.

U.S. Citizens work their ASS's off to have the life they get.

We DESERVE all the wonderfull things WE BRING AND MAKE for ourselves.

Do you have any idea how much money the Citizens and the Governments of the USA put BACK INTO the world?

I'm tired of assholes like you who are just jelious as hell of what the hard working people of the USA have worked to give themselves.

What's stopping anyone or any other country from working hard to do this for themselves? NOTHING! ZERO! NADA!

Handouts are for the leaches of the world.

History shows time and time and time again that ONE SINGLE INHUMANE leader such as Hitler, or Stalin or Sahdam or Osama bin Laden can lead a group of people to crimes against humans and humanity. THESE are the people that MUST BE STOPPED.

Your attempt to put the Blame for horrific acts against the USA on the USA is assinine.

GO THINK ABOUT IT SOME MORE IDIOT.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on your inclusive tone, I am assuming that you are an American. And I must say, for someone who just saw so many of your fellow citizens get smeared into paste today, you're quite the self-righteous, smarmy little fucker. I'm willing to wager that your post against "American Empire" would have gone quite a bit differently if you had been trapped in one of those towers today.

Nevertheless, I'm pleased to see that you hold your own intellectual superiority in such high esteem that you can blow off the deaths of your countrymen with such verve. And judging from your high comment score, I suppose I can say the same for many other Slashdot patrons. Spolied brats indeed! Would their deaths have evoked more pathos if they were as "enlightened" as you?

You can go on about the faults of American foreign policy all you wish, but do you really believe that by granting "respect" and "homage" to impoverished backwater shithole countries, we can avoid such future incidents? If so, then I suggest you begin taking your medication again! Do you think people such as these, who engage in such suicidal barbarism, have any respect for such overtures?

Our only solution is to strike back against those who would work to destroy our nation. The kind of strategy you suggest has never been successful. Placating aggressors such as these only postpones the inevitable conflict in their favor. We must annhilate those who are responsible for these crimes, and cultivate a fearful respect that will make even madmen reconsider striking against our citizens.

BTW, I find it intriguing that you immediately jump to the conclusion that in order to take such actions, we must commit wholeslae genocide. You seem to paint your terrorists with a wide brush, and the subtext of such a statement smacks of racism and bigotry. You seem to have forgotten, despite your sensitivity towards the world's suffering, that not every person of a particular racial or religious group is a terrorist.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

No fuck you american.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

You underestimate Americans. There is, and always has been, a taste for blood in our culture. It runs through our entertainment, in the violence in our streets, and throughout our history. The American mindset is replete with bloody genocide and mass domination of other cultures. For us, it goes well with beer on a Saturday night. Our oppressive empire is just that: one with not only military and financial power, but the culture and spirit of violence that has been looking for such an excuse as this to let slip the dogs of war. I don't provide excuses or deeper explanations. It is just who we are.

For the Slashdot doves: if you accept this evil -- an unprecedented and sudden murder of over 10,000 civilians -- where do you draw the line? Is there a greater evil that you find acceptable as a reason for self-protection and war?

Make no mistake. This terrorist attack will galvanize the American people, just as it did in 1941, just as it did in 1863, just as it did in 1776. It's in our blood. We kill the enemy for the same reason we always have: one, because he's threatened us somehow; two, because it's a hell of a lot of fun to kill him. Are you the enemy?

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

I reply to this only 'cause others have done so negatively and I feel some support is in order for this well worded and IMO, correct assesment of the situation. I post as anon only 'cause I am too lazy to find my actual password, and too paranoid for a cookie.

America does do a lot of beneficial things for other countries, only we do it with glistening eyes. Russia refused to let oil companies into their territory because although they knew it would be profitable for both sides, AND their reserves were HUGE, they did not want to be in our pocket. We will do humanitarian things for the benefit of the press only.

Another point I would like to make: How many people STARVE TO DEATH in this country? HOW MANY?!? Fucking practicaly NONE. In modern times there have never been unwanted mass starvations. People in poor, 3rd world countries would thrive on what the homeless here throw away. You wonder why immigrants ursurp workers for repetative tasks and low paid jobs, and still survive? It is becuase they have seen much worse than that which you will ever experience.

And now that I have stated my opinion on that: My heart goes out to the people involved in the horror of today. The families of the dead especially. I am not going to sully that comment with 'but maybe it will wake people up' 'cause I believe NOTHING is worth that wake up call. These people died for no reason - nothing can make me believe otherwise. No one has a right to do what was done. It was selfish and useless. Not a single person who has perished from this tragedy will know what we are saying today, and that makes me sad.

EB

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a great post. Please mod it up it deserves to be heard.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice commentary, quite true that the American people think the rest of the world is a Pax-americana. But as for your comments on using our success to benefit the world......we do. Blue Cross, Red Cross, Vaccination organizations; so many of them it makes my head swim, and they're funded by either the American people or the American Government itself. We may be a bit overbearing at times, but so are our parents. Point is, the U.S. thinks the rest of the world is a Pax-Americana because we are trying to make it that way. It may not be what the world exactly wants but I must say a worldwide Pax-Americana would be MUCH better than it is now.

We're the kind-hearted guide in the shadow of death, and we carry a BIG mutha-fucken stick.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

The french fed weapons to the Americans, the war was really between the british and the french.

And the british did not lose, they decided to get rid of a bunch of whiny libertarians, with nothing better to do than question the true meaning of liberty.

Re:Time to wake up...

[skwirl42]

I feel sadness for the people who died. I mourn their loss.

At the same time, I blame the US government, as much as the terrorists for this act. The US government has a horrible track record of perpetrating acts of violence and oppression (feeding Indonesia weapons to oppress East Timor) with one hand, while condemning the acts of others (Cambodia's Khmer Rouge) with the other.

And who suffers here? The people, because they are too ignorant to realize that the kind of governments they put into power cause death, sometimes (and frequently) their own.

So get off your high horse until the US government perpetrates peace, other than through pax imperia.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

You my friend are going to be a very unpopular
minority right now.."hey join the the third world
america: we suffer you suffer"-you will learn now
what the barbars opposing rome learned:
FEAR US.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

but you have been there. repeatedly. being from another country i can honestly say that i've watched America, as a nation, repeatedly stick its nose where it doesn't belong. everybody i know considers the "American way" to be one of arrogance. you're not better than everybody else so stop acting like it. people are disgusted by your attitudes.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

With regards to your statements on the US doing more than the rest of the world in helping poor nations, have you yet to consider the fact that US owes the UN the largest sum amount of money in fees?

Although the US is a world power that is very easily registered in the memory as being instrumental in many missions, the voice of the US is exceptionally loud because of its strong economy and military strength as well as the soft power it perpetuates through pop culture, it does not mean that UN decisions are always in tandem with that of the United States.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

What *I* personally find intriguing is that u jump to conclusions yourself. I am not so sure that the original person was advocating "Placating aggressors".

But then, I am an anon.

EB

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

please use your typing skills constructively.

I felt almost dirty reading your post. You spend 1 line on your 'sadness', but almost 6 discussing your position against the government.

I for one also 'mourn'. Only I actually do it.

EB

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Much like the rest of the world would be better if it was EXACTLY like you, or me for that matter.

Give it up for diversity my brutha.

EB

Rainbows and shit

Re:Time to wake up...

[mpducker]

Your cynicism is astounding. I'm keenly aware of all of the United States' sins throughout its two hundred or so years, but your stereotype of Americans as ignorant, exploitative fools is hardly any more accurate than the stereotype of the people who did this as the representatives of "shithole backwater nations." We have a lot of blood on our hands that we'll eventually have to account for (slavery, expansion, capitalist imperialism), but none of that justifies what happened yesterday. This was a surprise attack against thousands upon thousands of innocent people, many of which had nothing to do with American politics or American policy. Murder is not a "wake up call", whether it's committed by the United Fruit Company in Central America or by anonymous terrorists and it will never force enlightenment. So I'm afraid now for all Islamic Americans that will face assaults and hatred over the next few years. Does this mean that all Americans are bigoted fools? No, but I have been around the world enough to know that human nature sometimes reacts this way out of anger and hatred--the same hatred that brought down those buildings yesterday.

I am disgusted with my country sometimes, but I have enough pride in what it has accomplished to cry with it and give it the benefit of my doubt.

Re:Time to wake up...

[PinkStainlessTail]

Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses.
Yes, true, but supporters of a repressive theocratic belief system are not a downtrodden mass. They are not representing underpaid/overworked children in Asian sweatshops or migrant workers or any other group that has been seriously fscked by the US over the years.
IMHO, the excesses/abuses of an Islamic Fundamentalist country as powerful as the U.S. would be as bad or worse as the excesses/abuses of the U.S.

Re:Time to wake up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure... Our country helps a lot of poor nations. But when we wanted to beat Soviet out of Afghan it is us who gave away most of what Taliban / Bin Laden has now, which they are using it against our interests. This story can be repeated for so many other conflicts.
Global peace is not really what we stand for. It is more like if it serves OUR economic and strategic interests, we will help others fight and kill each other....
And if one of them gets stronger and wins and turns against us.... oh, they are so mean...

Re:Time to wake up...

[telbij]

Okay, I'm sorry to whoever I offended. This tragedy is so great that I'm sure I won't be able to wrap my mind around it for years.

I'm not suggesting that we should not retaliate or anything ridiculous like that. YES, WE SHOULD BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF THE PERPETRATORS. YES, WE SHOULD STEP UP INTELLIGENCE SPENDING.

I am an American citizen who has had the opportunity to live in a 3rd world country for years, and also listens to the BBC regularly to get the world view on things (at least European anyway).

My central point, without trying to antagonize, is that our foreign policy is somewhat hypocritical in that we PREACH liberty and freedom, but choose our battles in a self-serving manner. There is also a disturbing trend of renegging on any and all treaties whenever we want to. It's a diffusion of responsibility, because each successive president claims that his policies aren't in line with previous presidents. It's a cop-out, and it does a lot to hurt American credibility.

I am not trying to be self-righteous, or say that American's don't work as hard as other people, or that our morals are inferior. I don't think any of those things. I'm not saying it's our responsibility to take care of the rest of the world.

What I am saying, is that if we keep leveraging our global power to increase the wealth gap between us and the poor resource-producing countries, it WILL bite us in the ass down the line.

Let us not make the same mistake the Israeli's made in assuming that Palestine was would be easily dominated through technological superiority. With power comes responsibility, and that responsibility is to be a model world citizen. Sure we can choose not to, and no one can do anything about it now, but make no mistake, that once world opinion turns against us, that will be the end of our glorious prosperity.

All my discussion falls under the realm of PREVENTING terrorism by throwing people a bone once in a while. Otherwise, the amount of money we have to spend on security increases exponentiaally as the wealth gap increases. In the end, it would be a lot cheaper and less risky to improve our foreign policy.

As I said above, for the current incident, nothing less than painful death to the perpetrators of yesterday's tragedy will suffice, and I think most of the world is with us on that one.

Re:Time to wake up...

[grimzap]

Yup. You are a typical bigot. You believe that all Americans are spoiled brats that have everything handed to them on a platter. Your reasoning seems to indicate that you feel nothing for the innocents murdered yesterday because they have more things then most of the rest of the world. Is this some kind of crime? Is wanting and obtaining more for yourself and your children a capital offense that should be delt with by murdering 1000's.
You tell me what country or people on this planet does not have "self serving" ways. Is it some of the European countries that sold uranium enrichment equipment to Saddam and taught him how to create biological weapons and poision gas? Is it the Chinese that sold missles to Iran and have given N. Korea what they need to project nuclear weapons all over the world? Maybe it is some of the contries in Eastern Europe who sell millions of assault weapons and land mines to just about anyone who will ask. Or maybe some countries in latin America whose govenments are completely corrupted by drug money. There is enought blame to go around for all the misery in the world. Whenever America decides not to sell arms to a county, 100's of other countries line up to sell them.
If you try to blame everything all on America, you will never solve any problems because it is not true. Bigotry and stereotyping directed against Americans is just as wrong as it is against any other nation or ethinic group. We are a diverse nation with a lot of diverse opinions. I believe the US does much more to make the world better than any other country. If you think different, that is your privelege but you are simply wrong and you will never convince me otherwise because I KNOW BETTER. Don't believe the propaganda of the the enemies of the US!

grimzap

Re:Time to wake up...

[Skeeve]

Re:Time to wake up... (Score:5)
by telbij on Tuesday September 11, @04:16PM (#2281397)
(User #465356 Info)
>I'm afraid many of you anonymous cowards (log in please) need to step outside of your privileged American lives and learn about the reality of life in impoverished countries.

>Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.

>Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.

I must agree, unfortunately, with at least part of these comments. Do not forget where many of the Islamic terrorists, including Bin Laden, received their training. It was in Afghanistan, fighting the Soviets. The Soviet army, with all of its conventional and (suspected biological/chemical weapons) was unable to win against an army of people who were willing to give their lives to defend their country. We learned the same lesson in Vietnam. We never lost a major battle against the NVA, but the political war was lost due to the actions of the VC, and the terrorism that occured.
I served for 12 years in the Navy, and very likely lost some friends and/or shipmates on Tuesday. I am wholeheartedly for an attack to wipe out those responsible. But, I do not fool myself into thinking that we will wipe out terrorism. At the most, we make it a little harder. To 'wipe out terrorism' we would have to give up too many freedoms, and accept to many indignities. And even those will not work. It is very hard, if not impossible, to stop someone who is willing to die to accomplish their goals. If it was easier, Israel would have won some time ago, since they have shown they are not above the targeted killing/mass killing of suspected terror groups.

Re:Time to wake up...

[skwirl42]

OK, I'll rephrase this, so that it doesn't just make you dirty, but maybe smacks some sense into you. In a certain sense, it was their own damn fault. Flaunting power, and abusing it, and aiding and abetting it, is unconscionable.

Sure, maybe there were innocents in there, and yes, any loss of life is bad. But people are only looking into their grief, and feelings of revenge, and not even condering whether or not they were in some sense culpable.

The american press likes to point fingers outside of the US, without trying to analyze whether or not it's actually americans who are the problem.

How many news stories from US sources covered the violent acts against american muslims? These are innocent, american citizens, who are now being attacked by so-called 'innocent' americans, just because they have some sort of religious link to the nutjobs who planned this.

I wish it had been domestic terrorists. I really do. Then maybe it would have smacked some sense into the american people, and maybe have made them question their own righteousness.

I just hope those people didn't die in vain, and that it might wake up the american consciousness to their own problems.

Free Parking

[Haxx]

Is it finally time for operation " Make Afghanastan a parking lot?"

Rome is burning. What will they do?

Re:Free Parking

[remande]

I'm getting a bit sick of this sort of sentiment. What appears to be a small cell of people wreak tremendous havoc on the United States, and we have people ready to destroy a nation? No wonder so many people hate Americans. I'm beginning to hate Americans, ,and I am one.

Besides, we'd be horrified if we turned Afghanistan into a parking lot and then found out that it was the Elbonians all along.

Re:Free Parking

[Haxx]

Thankyou for your comment Mr. Bleedingheart. I'll bet you my servers that Bin Laden and his friends and all thier cohorts are all in afgahnastan, Not to mention they are supported by that goverment.

Re:Free Parking

[segfaultdot]

No. You can't just turn an entire nation into a glass parking lot... It would probably get Bin Ladin (very good), but it would also kill a lot of innocent people (bad).

Not everybody in/from the mid east are psychopathic America-hating killers. They're people like you and me. We cannot destroy an entire nation for the sins of one man, no matter how great those sins. The same goes for iraq.

Re:Free Parking

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it finally time for operation " Make Afghanastan a parking lot?

It might be a good idea to at least get the name of the country right before embarking on a military operation...

Re:Free Parking

[Mr Skreet Nite]

How prophetic. As I read this cruise missiles are being rained down on Kabul. Those people are already suffering at the hands of the fascist Taliban and are now being bombed to shit by the very power who put them in power - the fascist US. Now for the second time today I've had to watch the innocent die.

Re:Free Parking

[Mr Skreet Nite]

Apaprently I was wrong, as the US has just denied involvement. My apologies for shooting from the lip

Re:Free Parking

[joolios]

Yes you are a dork, aren't you.

Re:Free Parking

[Anonymous Coward]

That is precisely what is wrong with you - you do not appreciate honesty. The guy was nice and
americans consider nice people mororns. I only
hope that God saves America. No one else can save
a country that thinks that good and honesty are
stupid. Yeah, Holiwood did it but that is not
an excuse...

Re:Free Parking

[nonchalance]

Not necessarily true, though.
The US government has quite a history of denying involvement.

Re:Free Parking

[frknfrk]

it is confirmed that the bombers in afghanistan are the northern light, opponents of the taliban.

The fine line...

[digitac]

How do we tell when we have crossed the line between 'Live and let live' and 'Kill or be killed'?

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

-digitac

Re:The fine line...

[5foot2]

If our retaliation is a knee jerk, or too week then yes, it will just provoke more of this type of action against the US. If it's swift, aimed at the correct parties and complete and total devistation against them, then others will not be so quick to attack against us in such a manner.

Re:The fine line...

[mlh1996]

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

Yes.

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

Yes.

So which is worse? You tell me.

Don't be scared -- that's what they want.

Re:The fine line...

[IronChef]

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

Maybe.

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

Definitely.

And, when faced with such a choice, I'll gamble on the "maybe." Bombs away.

Re:The fine line...

[Anonymous Coward]

"If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

Maybe.

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?
Definitely. "

Oh come on you now you can not tell the future so stop passing off speculation as truth. It was a rhetorical question that you were not supposed to answer anyway.

Re:The fine line...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if 100% of them are dead.

Re:The fine line...

[Anonymous Coward]

>If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

Yes. There is only one way to effectively deal with a bully. You pick your time and place and beat him senseless.

Re:The fine line...

[Flambergius]

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

Yes.

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

Yes.

So which is worse? You tell me.

Don't be scared -- that's what they want.

Please moderators, mod up this up! The most rational and insightful comment I have read so far.

"Don't be scared -- that's what they."

Don't do anything just because you are scared, if you do they have succeeded. Fear is the cancer that can destroy our way of life. Terrorists can plant the seed of the fear, of the cancer, but the rest is up to us. Terrorisist can't make the seed grow, they can't make it consume us. Only we can ... and only we can prevent it.

This is our fight, make no mistake about that. Other generations have had other fights and other ways of fighting. Way we fight it is by being brave. We may have to put our foot down in other ways at some point, but that won't be the when the fight is won or lost. We will lose if we let them change us. We will win if refuse to be frightend and carefully judge our response so that it meets both ethical and practical standards of our societies.

I'm using we even thou I am a Finn because in this all democracies stand together.

--Flam

Re:The fine line...

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider this mathematically. Any rational human being must find a solution that will result in a minimum loss of life bounded by certain political and economic considerations.

Wholesale attacks against the middle east are not the answer, but neither is hoping to merely apprehend the handful of individuals who planned/coordinated this attack.

One upside to this attack is that it has eased political and certain ethical restrictions on action against known terrorists and associates. If I were President Bush, I would use the wave of outrage in the American populace to conveniently erase a number of groups that have been a bothersome thorn in America's foreign policy and such an obvious threat to the free world. Public opinion is now in the perfect position to rationalize the destruction of many terrorist groups worldwide. Revenge is a foolish and vain pursuit prompted by weakness; but letting an opportunity to unleash some well focused and pent up fury on many logical and dangerous targets go to waste would be a bigger blunder.

US backing of Bin Laden in the Soviet invasion of Afganistan notwithstanding, it is far more desirable to eliminate terrorist groups in their infancy than to wait for the human and economic cost to become unfathomable. I'm sure a great number of innocent and terrified Afganis, Palestinians, and American Arabs would agree with me.

Huh?

[PHAEDRU5]

"It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information."

Sorry, but I found impossible to stare at the TV and not to think about the horrifying loss of life.

You're out of touch with humanity, Jon Katz.

Re:Huh?

[marcop]

And if one is too calus to think about loss of life... how about a loss of two great engineering accomplishments? American Icon? American pride? Sense of safety on our turf? etc.

convergence?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information"

... or freedom, religion and terror.

Re:Huh?

[ConceptJunkie]

I think you completely missed his point. Katz clearly meant that the loss of life _is_ the horrific convergence. Let's stick to criticizing what Katz actually says.

When else in history could a country at peace be suddenly subject to such devastating loss? The last 100 years or so has seen exactly what Katz said...

Re:Huh?

[greenrd]

You're out of touch with humanity, Jon Katz.

I don't know about that. Katz is just a "columnist" (and I use that word in a very loose sense) paid to produce tripe regularly. Whether he actually believes what he writes is doubtful, and rather besides the point.

I was going to say it's a bit sickening to exploit such a horrific tragedy for petty journalistic gain, but I'm not really sure what Katz's motives are in posting this, so I'll leave it at that.

Re:Huh?

[Copperhead]

Hopefully, many of us will realize, perhaps for the first time, that technology is not the great savior that many claim it will be. Our world is not better because we have more advanced gadgets. A cell phone can be used to call your family, or to remotely detonate a bomb.

Please continue to pray for the families in their grief, and for our elected officials, as they must soon make some incredibly difficult decisions.

Re:Huh?

[Tsian]

How amazingly unhuman of you sir! Jon may have very well lost one of his dearest friends and may even be in a state of shock, and here you are flaming him. You, sir, are the disgusting one.

Jon I am sorry for your potential loss, and my thoughts go out to you.

Re:Huh?

[update()]

I agree. I'm not going to start flaming over this (today has given me a better perspective about what is and isn't worth getting angry or hostile over) but I'd like to see today treated simply as a tragedy for at least a few days before it passes into an anecdote for culture theory.

Evil is Evil

[5foot2]

My heart goes out to your friends families, and to you John. To all the people who have, or will lose someone do to this. I truely feel for you all.

Lets not forget evil is evil and technology has nothing to do with that fact. It's just the means to an end for the evil.

Re:Evil is Evil

[cobyrne]

I have learned that an American friend of mine has a son who had breakfast in the WTC yesterday morning. He left at 8:30am, and was a few blocks away when the first plane hit. That is as close I have gotten, so far, to being directly affected by what happened.

But, as the Irish president said yesterday, when the list of the dead is read out in the weeks to come, there will be names from every peace loving country on earth. I am sure that many Americans are feeling personally attacked by what happened, even if they were thousands of miles away and knew no-one in NY or Washington. Let me assure you that the feeling of having being personally attacked goes out much further than the closed borders of America this morning.

God bless America. God bless us all.

A new day of infamy

[jjr]

This day is one that I fear. These actions will not only affect the US but almost every country in the world. As I sit by the TV and hear even more information about this tragedy. My heart sinks not only because what happen today but will happen tommorow. We all know there will be a witch hunt. WHat will happen after to today we do not know but all I hope it happens soon and with at little blood sheed as possible.

There May Still Be Hope

[CritterNYC]

I have heard first and second-hand accounts that the whole World Trade Center complex began evacuating after the 1st plane hit. A friend was on th 61st floor of tower 1, was asked to evacuate, was in the stairwell when the 2nd plane hit. He made it out ok. I just heard secondhand reports of people as high up as th 88th floor of tower 1 getting out ok. My friend's father (staying here tonight) was across the street in front of Deutsche Bank when the 2nd plane hit. He hid behind the big pillars holding up the balcony to avoid the debris and then got as far away from the towers as possible.

Unfortunately, it looks like there were hundreds of people on the ground by the towers watching the fires burn, both when the 2nd plane hit... and when the 1st tower fell.

I've been listing my friends who make it out safe on my website, as well as adding an information I get from 1st and 2nd hand accounts of people who were there. All said it was gruesome, even after just the 1st plane hit. Pictures and a live webcam are on my site. SOMEONE PLEASE MIRROR the terrorism and webcam subsite so I don't get Slashdotted.

http://johnhaller.com/jh/terrorist/

I will also be creating a site tonight to try and help people get in touch and find people affected by this. I will post more when I have it up.

Best wishes for all everyone knows and loves to make it home safe.

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[FFFish]

Anyone with information on survivor rates, please post them!

Any geeks in the Manhattan area could perhaps start collecting names and posting them. Perhaps Slashdot can sponsor a page to help collate the names.

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[Kirkoff]

I mirrored at
http://kirkoff.shya.net/~josh/mirror/terrorist
The webcam is not morrored.

--Josh

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[Jobe_br]

This site is mirrored at:
John Haller's server.
-Brice Ruth

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

He's right, a large number of people did get out ok. My company had offices on the 29th floor, we just heard on the internal mail that all are safe and accounted for, HR having tracked down every one of them. I don't think I'm betraying any confidence to tell you the company is Sun Microsystems, hopefully that will help someone reading.

You've got to remember, no-one is going to stop to pick up their mobile phone in that situation, and the phone networks sound like they are in chaos. Large numbers of the missing will hopefully turn up safe over the next day once they struggle home or manage to get through on the phones.

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[linuxchimp]

This is now mirrored on linuxchimp:

http://www.linuxchimp.com/mirrors/johnhaller.com

Please pass the link around.

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[merlin_jim]

I spoke with a friend who was on one of the top five floors of Tower One, the second tower to be hit. Actually, I spoke to the guy that was talking on the phone with him at the time. When the first tower (Tower Two) was hit, he said "There's been some kind of bomb or something, we're evacuating, I gotta go." (click)

So, they started evacuating both towers when the first plane hit... I can imagine that many people got out. Noone's heard from him since then, of course... but that's not exactly unusual today.

Hope your friend is okay, Jon

[Randy Rathbun]

Fortunately the folks I know in NYC are in different parts of LI. Have heard from them all. Before I got calls, however, it was kind of tense for a few hours.

And don't worry about the cell phone. I leave mine at home half the time, or leave it under the front seat of my car, or someplace else. It is always on, and the batteries spend more time without a charge than with.

Possible solution: isolationism

[programic]

I know it is selfish and would make the United States out to be very bad world citizens, but I think it is time to re-adopt the isolationist foreign policies of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

It is becoming painfully clear that nobody is going to be able to fix the religious and ethnic problems of this earth--people fear difference--and they always will.

Honestly, what good has come from the last 20 years of Middle-East negotiations? Half of Africa are still refugees. Sadly, this stuff will not go away no matter how much we fight it.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[Tazzy531]

This is not the solution.

Bush tried to do this. By withdrawing the US from all these conferences, he is in-effect adopting an isolationist foreign policy.
As a great superpower and with the greater interconnectivity of the world, the US needs to be more involved. Isolationism might have worked in the past where less than 1 in 5 household owned tv, nonetheless a method of communication.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[programic]

I have to disagree. Isolationism is what kept certain European countries safe in WWII, and up to this day.

There are problems enough in America (we can't seem to agree about religion and race either). I feel that picking sides in what is essentially a religious war has been the Wrong Thing to do.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck isolationism! Get the bastards. Give them their
day in court, and then execute them in the most
creative ways possible. How about burning and falling out of a tall building?

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[Qrlx]

(Arrogant caveat: I'm an American, so "our" means U.S.)
Without worldwide trade our country will crumble. Isolationism is simply not a realistic path. One of many factors that led us into the Great Depression of the 1930s was isolationist trade policies such as high tarriffs that blocked U.S. goods from European markets, and vice versa. I am not trying to be a WTO apologist here, I am simply explaining why isolationism is frivolous. Do you think GM, Boeing, etc. can survive if America becomes isolated? Of course not.

As for "fixing" the problems of the Middle East, consider that the West has militarized that region for the past half century, because WE *NEED* THE OIL TO SUSTAIN OUR ECONOMY.

We have chosen to pursue our interests in the Middle East by aligning ourselves with a racist/Zionist state (Israel) and a dictatorship/Kingdom (Saudi Arabia), our number one and number two benefactors in the Middle East. Meanwhile we hate those darned Iraqis, who hold almost as much oil as the Saudis. Ironic? Yes. A psychological gambit you'd pull on children? Yes. Do children throw temper tantrums when they perceive they're being treated unfairly? Yes!

We don't know if this stuff will go away, no matter how much we fight it, because we've been dumping gasoline on the fire for the past TEN YEARS with constant bombings of Iraq, Osama bin Laden, and so on.

Sometimes the BULLY (that's us) gets a punch to the face, a little bloody nose, and it shocks him for a second. That was today. How we react in the coming months will determine if we continue to be a bully or maybe we grow up a little bit. I'm expecting the former but hoping for the latter, and I vote.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you believe that isolationism is even possible? If the attacks today show anything, they show that no country can be isolated. In fact, aside from the high casualties that are expected, one of the reasons that the attacks are so unsettling is that everyone more or less assumed that such attacks didn't happen in North America.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[dada21]

Totally wrong. Libertarians such as myself don't want to be isolationist citizens, we just want our government to stop caring for other countries.

Let our citizens decide if they want to buy or trade with other countries, any countries.

Stop giving money to other countries' governments, which only harbor war, and only help keep dictators in power.

Bring all our troops home. Stop selling weapons to any other countries.

Leave NATO and the UN.

By lifting embargoes, and letting American citizens and corporations buy or trade with anyone anywhere, we'll only INCREASE our worth while decreasing terrorist acts.

Check out my website and click on 09-11-2001 for more info on my views...

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[michaelo]

No, this only will other countries and specially their citiziens only more angry about the US. And terrorists will always find ways to "do their job" just as cracker will always find a way into some system.
J.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[Qrlx]

we just want our government to stop caring for other countries.
You say you want our government to stop caring for other countries. We do not "care for" other countries, we exploit them as best we can. Those millions we give in "foreign aid"; it's a bribe, it's a payoff, it's a way of ensuring their friendship because we give them money and they buy F-16s with it. Then they feel "protected" by the U.S. and we hope that, now that we've armed the bullies and have made it clear they are not to directly engage each other, they will maintain ORDER in the Middle East. Not democracy, not justice, just ORDER. Keep that oil comin' boys.

Let our citizens decide if they want to buy or trade with other countries, any countries.
I have no idea how, as a plebe citizen, I would initiate trade with other countries, aside from going to Pier 1 or something.

Stop giving money to other countries' governments, which only harbor war, and only help keep dictators in power.
But Dictatorships (like the Saudis) are nice and stable, and they get us our oil for cheap.

Bring all our troops home. Stop selling weapons to any other countries.
If we stop selling weapons to other countries, Boeing will go out of business. Not to mention the thousands of govt workers involved in foreign military sales. (I used to be one.)

Leave NATO and the UN.
The U.N was created by FDR to carry out U.S. foreign policy.

Recognize the scope of the problem you are facing: You are talking about a revolution! The Pentagon reduced to a skeleton staff, tens of thousands laid off at Boeing and Raytheon and Lockheed Martin and so on.

The United States established its independence from the British with the help of the gun makers, and our government and arms merchants have been in bed together ever since. Asking us to "bring the boys home" is swimming upstream against hundreds of years of American tradition, from the Monroe Doctrine to Commodore Perry to Gunboat Diplomacy, to Korea and Desert Storm (not to mention the Trail of Tears, or Waco). We ARE a military-industrial complex, it's the underpinning of what America is. Look at our worlds-best military, that's what it means to be an American.

Someday, there may be people living here, actually participating in a free market, unchecked by government favoritism, but those people won't call themselves The United States of America.

Notes for the day...

[Ron Harwood]

It's International Peace Day and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks...

It's ironic and sad...

Re:Notes for the day...

[elmegil]

And tomorrow was to be the sentencing for one of the original WTC bombers from 1993.

Re:Notes for the day...

[Donut]

And this is not a coincidence. Anniverseries are the prime days for terrorism.

Re:Notes for the day...

[8string]

Do you really think it's ironic? Do you really think it's coincidence? Lemme tell you, I lived in Israel, and I have seen first hand both the blind hatred people can have (I was personally threatened on more than one occasion by Palistinians in Jerusalem), and how most people there really only want what we do. Peace, privacy and the right to persue happiness. That goes for Palistinians and Jews.

The Camp David accords led to peace with Egypt. That was the begining of the _hope_ for peace with Jordan, Syria, and the rest of the arab world. I can't believe that this is just coincidence. Look at the Palistinians dancing in the streets. Blind hatred. Look at Rabins execution. Blind hatred (in the style of McViegh). This date is no coincidence, just as the targets were't coinincidental. The World Trade Center, symbolic of our international economy. The pentagon, of our military might. None of this is coincidental. It's a message. It makes me sick with disgust and sadness.

Re:Notes for the day...

[andy@petdance.com]

anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks...

It's ironic and sad...

It's almost certianly NOT ironic, or unintentional. Remember, Camp David was a target as well.

And thanks to all who flamed Katz for his drivel, saving me the bother and profanity.

Re:Notes for the day...

[jarodss]

I don't think that this is quite ironic although this is very sad.
The fact that today is International Peace Day and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks would lead me to believe that this was planned specifically for today. Especially with the Camp David peace talks, I have heard, at this point unconfirmed rumors, that the plane that went down in PA was headed for Camp David. How close that would have gotten I cannot say and do not wish to speculate about.
My thoughts go out to those who have lost anyone to this.

Re:Notes for the day...

[josh_miller]

Interesting. Today was likely chosen by the terrorists for just this reason.

Re:Notes for the day...

[andymac]

Part right, part wrong. The 18th (next week) is Int'l peace day. Check out UN Days of the Year for Sept 2001. Minor detail, I know.

Re:Notes for the day...

[FlyveHest]

According to the site The International Day of Peace is observed each year on the third Tuesday of September., and will not be until next Tuesday (the 18th).

Re:Notes for the day...

[rjamestaylor]

It's International Peace Day and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks... It's ironic and sad...

Yes, sad. But not ironic -- I think it's an intentional slap in the face of the Peace Accord.

Re:Notes for the day...

[Anonymous Coward]

The other odd anniversary (and this is going back a bit) is the Mountain Meadow Massacre (Sept 11/1857). Apparently, next to the Oklahoma City bombing it's the next largest case of domestic terrorism (120 pioneers headed from Arizona to California killed by, let's just say, religious zealots).
It would be a bit too weird if this turns out to be the work of a bunch of pissed off polygamists from Utah.

Re:Notes for the day...

[Blue Neon Head]

"and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks... "

Ironic? How about intentional?

Re:Notes for the day...

[Angst Badger]

It is also the anniversary of the groundbreaking for the construction of the Pentagon back in 1941. Pure coincidence, I'm sure, but an interesting one.

One heart.

Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[typical geek]

and not as interested in low tech, face to face survelliance. Somewhat like a certain web page, the US intelligence community believes there is a high tech solution to every problem.

When your biggest enemy is Russia, almost as technically advanced as you, this may make sense.

When your biggest enemy is a terrorist living in the mountains of Asia, and plotting an attach face to face over Coleman lantern light, the best spy satellites in the world won't help you, you need someone on site.

Iran was overthrown becuase we had no agents in the Ayatollah's movement, and this may be a similar situation.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[jafac]

Russia handled it's terrorists from Chechnya.

It wasn't pretty.

I suspect more non-prettiness will be the result of this.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[xmedar]

And when did they ever prove that any attack on Russia was organised by Chechians? There has never been a court case, no evidence was produced, Russia needed a war, so they got one, the Chechian gangs are still some of the most feared in Russis, invading Chechnya solved nothing, but was a damn good PR exercise, MS would have been proud.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[ScumBiker]

Frankly, who cares? Terrorists certainly don't. We don't need a trial, a hearing, or anything like that. We're the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We shouldn't be fucked with like this. I agree with MxTxL, we need to attack _now_, not after some silly senate hearing or whatever. All countries that harbor these worthless excuses for people should be bombed. ENOUGH. Retaliate now.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Yokaze]

In other words:
We don't need something like laws, trials and justice.
All we need is a good lynch mob.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not that the US is enamored of high tech intel to the exclusion of low tech, it's that low tech is *very* difficult to accomlish so high tech substitutes must be used.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia has always been good a human intelligence, esp. with women

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly the attitude that got your country fucked up the ass in the first place!

You're right. Who cares who did it? Just bomb some people you don't like anyway!

If the US had acted more responsibly in the past (Kyoto agreement, ABM treaty, War on Drugs, funding armed conflicts around the globe to suit it's own financial interests, etc. etc.), perhaps they'd have a few less enemies to eliminate from the suspect list. As it stands, your country has pissed off just about everyone else on earth with it's superior attitude and meddling in foreign affairs that don't concern them.

Retaliate now? With a list of enemies as big as that, you're gonna need to blow up the whole world before you can be sure you got the bastards!

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

As pressure for massive budget increases in the name of financing "low-tech" intelligence, it does well to remember that the NSA & CIA shifted their focus to "high-tech" intelligence exactly BECAUSE of the failures of the "face-to-face" model.

Specifically, the US kept getting misleading information, and tended to evaluate the quality of information by its expense. It is hard not to believe something for which you've paid incredible sums. After all, we *get* something for our intel budget, no???

This money may be better spent solving the underlying problems of underdevelopment and economic marginalization than sending multi-million dollar scuds chasing after nomads whose only probable assets are a burning sense of outrage and an ideal on which to hang it.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[mortuusangelus]

It's too bad that most countries who hate us also are the ones that come crying to us for help whenever they need bailing out of whatever stupid ass situation they get themselves planted in.

I personally believe we should just start destroying the Middle East systematically.. find out who did it on the way. People have a better habit of talking when your running over their tinshack village with a tank. The only thing the Middle East is good for anyway is oil exportation.

But, on the other hand, I believe we should also remove our military presence from all these countries we're trying to 'help', including Israel.. let them fight alone and see how long they last. :)

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Brit_in_Oz]

I feel for all those caught up in this whatever their nationality - they were certainly not all US citizens.

You are the United States Of America as you say, but it is scary how many people in your country think you are more important than the rest of the world put together. (yes I HAVE visited the US - for many months at a time, not just visiting Disneyworld either ! I have many friends over there - have you ever been out of the US ? Do you even know where Afghanistan is ?). Have you any idea how much resentment there is against the way the US behaves in the world, even in the free-world (Europe etc) ?

NOTHING excuses this outrage, but random revenge attacks would be exactly the same. Violence is violence is violence is violence. killing is killing is killing is killing. Every human being is someones child or parent or friend etc.

What makes the US so above anyone else that it should expect to be allowed to retaliate against anything it suspects might be involved.

I hope your government shows some vision and waits until it has a good idea who did this, then targets individuals.

If you contribute to the cycle of hatred, you are as culpable as anyone else.

(still I guess it is difficult to explain this to a country with 200 yr out of date gun laws - yes I mean the US - which severely restricts your liberty)

Once again - I CONDEM THIS OUTRAGE AND THOSE WHO DID IT - BE CLEAR ON THAT.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Brit_in_Oz]

I doubt that much would make you look smarter but there we are. Alll this running to US for help is all in your imagination. You are not as important as you think you are. And please don't hold Israel up as any example. .... except a good example of a state engaged in terrorism.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Decimal]

We don't need a trial, a hearing, or anything like that. We're the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We shouldn't be fucked with like this.

In other words, your country has the biggest penis, so it's far worse for anyone to fuck with the U.S. than any other country. And of course, it's not really significant when the little podunk states get hurt. You think we should just bomb them all to be sure there's no way whoever attacked us will go unpunished.

This kind of attitude is the main reason I'm ashamed to be an American.

"Just find whoever did this and kill them." -- said very casually by a civilian interviewed on television.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

First, I have to offer my deepest sympathy to all Americans. Second, it is essential now to find out who did this. The terrorists have shown that they can attack the US from within and that can be done again. The US is not impotent, and it's actions can have awful reprecussions for it's people. Only by striking only those who carry the blame can the cycle of violence be broken. By using indiscriminate violence, it is unlikely that the actual perpetrators or thier associates will be harmed. America must pause to find out who did it, and then deal with them brutally.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[codingOgre]

Fuck you. If you are ashamed of being an American then get the fuck out *right now*. Remember we are the most powerful country on earth and we make many mistakes, but do you think for a second that any other country in our situation would do any better? Read about world history, there is not another time in *human* history that one country has wielded so much power and not tried to take over the world! This is the greatest country in the world make no mistake about that. Do we have serious issues? Yes. Every country on the planet does.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you. If you are ashamed of being an American then get the fuck out *right now*. Remember we are the most powerful country on earth and we make many mistakes, but do you think for a second that any other country in our situation would do any better? Read about world history, there is not another time in *human* history that one country has wielded so much power and not tried to take over the world!

If all the sane people left, the remaining people like you would try to take over the world.

This is the greatest country in the world make no mistake about that. Do we have serious issues? Yes.

You're right, Americans do. I'm not sure if that would be extreme ego or strong case of dementia. "Greatest country"? Certainly not with millions of arrogant lunatics -- monsters like yourself -- infesting it.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Dastardly]

Tom Clancy noted this, while an author of fiction he does research the inteligence community for his fiction, and he made an internesting point. There are 20,000 people in the CIA. Only 1000 of those are field agents.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[$nyper]

To all of the American allies who have given their best wishes I thank you. We need global support in a time like this. All of our world leaders are correct this is not a problem for the United States of America but a problem for all democratic countries in the world.

Brought to you by the too pissed off to spell check dept.

I am going to assume with a name like Brit_in_Oz you are British. Easy assumption and kind silly to even comment on.

Well simple facts, who bailed your asses out of two major world wars in the last century? Huh, huh, huh? We actually tried not meddling in foreign affairs before WW2 and it didn't work. The French laid down and took it up the ass as the Nazi's inserted a Panzer sized rod and the British were as good as dead before we were finally brought into the war by Japan and a "questionable" torpedoing of an american ship by German forces.

It is funny we were and still are the only country capable of fighting and winning to major theater sized campaigns when the rest of the world is cowering in fear. It is funny we stepped up to the call and answered the prayers of you fathers and grandfathers and now their bastard chlidern like you damn us for doing exactly what we were asked to do before WW2. Americans need to TAKE A MORE ACTIVE ROLE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS is what they said. So we did and now people like you bitch about our aid. You do not want us to pull out of foreign affairs because you would get your lilly ass wiped by anyone and everyone. Do not forget that Britain's might is an illusion and even a global joke that most people around the globe laughs about. The only reason you get any military respect is because you have the might of the U.S. military and neucular capabilities standing arm in arm with you where ever you go.

To day we are a country in RAGE and I suggest you not step in our way or you might find out just how much of a joke you are. The terrorist forces have just created a dreadnaught that cannot be stopped. Congress will pass a declaration of war soon and no terrorist will be safe behind any border. Any threats from the rest of the world will mean nothing to us and we will not rest until our thirst for revenge is saturated.

IN SHORT FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

But I want to see retaliation because I am scared. It's not fair. And what if all of the perpetrators died while piloting the planes into buildings? What do we do with our rage? I already gave blood, now I want to see someone pay.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[ilyse]

why should we remove aid from israel? that would not help at all. neither will destroying more cities full of innocent people. it's not one country's fault that it has insane people living in it. what has to be done, is we need to find the person(s) responsible and deal with them accordingly...NOT the country they live in. i mean, we're all thinking "how could they kill so many innocent people? what's the point of that?" if we bomb someone for this, we'd just be a bunch of hypocrites...'cause we'd be doing the same thing.
this whole thing is stupid and hopefully it will end soon.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I am extremely mad also. I also want justice. We all do. And we don't need any other country's help to find and punish those left to be blamed, but that's the great thing about other countries; they will probobly be most willing to help. Personally, I don't plan on throwing insults and threats at our allies. I think that's just ignorant, even though I suppose it is only natural to act that way out of rage. Last night I was ready to ride the next ICBM to whatever country did this to us. I got really drunk. I was mad. I am still mad, but now I see why people are being so cautious about retribution.

Just show me who did these things, prove it, and remove them from this planet. (coincidentally, emotions have just escalated significantly on the radio. No longer are they talking about rescue and rebuilding; now they are talking about war.)

Just remember that a "war on terrorism" is much different than just blowing a large hole in the Middle East.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[codingOgre]

If all the sane people left, the remaining people like you would try to take over the world.

Childish comment without the benefit of thought.

You're right, Americans do. I'm not sure if that would be extreme ego or strong case of dementia. "Greatest country"? Certainly not with millions of arrogant lunatics -- monsters like yourself -- infesting it.

Umm, right. Why is it extreme ego for me to have an opinion, based on facts that I have read, about my own country? Dimentia??? I guess John Hopkins needs to call you! You can make a remote diagnosis without even seeing an individual! I guess where your from if someone has a strong opinion about something they must have a mental condition. I am not a monster, I am one of the most caring, sympathetic people you would ever meet, but I am sick and tired of people saying negative things about the United States.

If you care to have a real debate about America and wouldn't be intimidated intellectually, I would welcome it.

Good day.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Brit_in_Oz]

Thank you 'anonymous coward' some good points. 1st of all I was wrong to throw insults at America. what I think of your country is immaterial, and anyway, there are plenty of good things that outweight the bad. I've worked for US companies, and no doubt will again. Anyway, we all get a pretty biased view of history just remember that your government gives you just as biased information as the likes Afghanistan, who as someone said somewhere else will turn their whole people against America and cause more to turn to terrorism if you bomb indiscriminately. Bear this bias in view when you talk about 'saving' Britain, cos it weren't necessarily so ! And as for the all conquering US Army - I guess you forgot about Vietnam then ! And alot of people see the US military as overeager and poorly trained since you have so many incidents of blowing up your own side. As I say .... maybe this is just a bit of bias I have been fed. And by the way - I don't think of Britain as a great power. that was along time ago and there is a lot to answer for in our past too. I can tell you one thing for sure. I haven't spoken to anyone yet who doesn't agree that the US should not retaliate with random atacks as ther would be no difference between the US andwhoever did this appalling attrocity. Did you know something else ? The majority of money for the IRA comes from ordinary Americans or corporations ! ie. they directly fund terrorism in Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. Now if you know anything about Northern Ireland, (which I suspect doesn't rate highly on your news) you'll know that it is 30 years of tit for tat. well actually it goes back before the USA existed. No-one is right, just revenge after revenge. THAT is what so many people fear - only globally. And you can bet that most of it wouldn't happen in the US. The shock of this one is that it happened in such a remote (from the rest of the world) place. I share your grief, and some of your anger, - I just don't wish it on anyone else. By the way 'Oz' is Australia (ie I don't live in Britain at the moment).

:(

[garcia]

The skyline in May when I brought my gf to see Ellis Island. This is a sad sad day. To think that our children will not see the skyline as we once did :(

I am not a believer in war and I am not a believer in the loss of lives at any cost. I am trying to understand the necessity of this but I can't.

:(

Re::(

[Anonymous Coward]

I have difficulty understanding all this sadness about the changing skyline of New York. Really, who cares about the buildings? Maybe I am simply naive of their historical significance, but in my opinion, their disappearance is hardly the tragedy of the day. The thing that makes this day so dark is the loss of all those people that were working in those buildings, and the loss of the lives of those who rushed there to help.

Imagine if terrorists had piloted empty planes into two empty towers. While certainly an expensive loss for the city, at least there would be a few fewer terrorists in the world.

Buildings can be rebuilt. It's the people that cannot be replaced.

-Eric L.

Re: :(

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the lack of a beautiful skyline should be the least of our concerns right now. Please remember the 50,000 people working in those buildings and the millions more nearby whose lives will never be the same due to this awful course of events. It's a little bit petty to just be worrying about your kids not being able to see the skyline in the future. Think of the kids who will never see their parents again. Buildings can be rebuilt, but the death and trauma associated with this event can never be reversed.

Re::(

[garcia]

that obviously was not my point but apparently you people are too confused to see this.

the point was that w/o these buildings we will have a constant reminder of the pain, suffering, and bullshit that happened today.

Give me a break.

Come on, Jon, give us a break

[Brento]

It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information.

No, Jon, it's actually quite easy. I'm thinking of the thousands of people who lost their lives today at the hands of heartless terrorists. I don't think about technology, and I can't believe that you could. I thought you were just an idiot before, but you're not just brainless, you're heartless.

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[cavemanf16]

No, Jon, it's actually quite easy. I'm thinking of the thousands of people who lost their lives today at the hands of heartless terrorists. I don't think about technology, and I can't believe that you could. I thought you were just an idiot before, but you're not just brainless, you're heartless.

Wow, I'm glad to see that you and all the other slashbots have learned so well from this tragedy. What better way to say, I am evil, than to return a hateful comment to an innocent person who wanted to express his heartfelt sorrow and insight into another hateful event. Good work.

If Karma on Slashdot actually means more to you (by slamming yet another Katz article), than the feelings of someone who has quite possibly lost a friend or two on this terrible day of destruction, then you are truly, one of the most dispicable persons on this planet right now.

Jon Katz, I apologize for all the damn trolls, flamebaits, and other jerks using slashdot without a shred of decency for your heartfelt sorrow for today's events. As an American, a born-again Christian, and a caring human, I'll also say a prayer for you and your friends today. It certainly hurts us all right now, and I can't begin to imagine what losing a friend to this mess must feel like. My heart goes out to you.

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[ryanwright]

I want to know where the logic is that gets this comment modded "Insightful", and a nearly identical comment above it scored "Flamebait". Not to step on you, Brento: I agree with you 100%, and I agree with the Insightfulness of your post. I simply think it's insane that the other comment was modded "Flamebait".

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[Winged Cat]

Agreed. Politics certainly play a role. Technology, as it is usually invoked - new technology, especially computer technology - was not involved in the attack itself (unless maybe they communicated by - ooh, scaaary - email). Technology was involved in getting the word out, and in communicating the information of exactly what did happen so people would not dream up demons and react to them...which would have dealt far more damage than the actual attacks. Technology is also being used to coordinate search and rescue, to get as many victims out alive as possible.

Or is damage mitigation istelf what's supposed to be "horrific", since it shortens the time in which the media (including Katz) can meaninglessly pontificate on this topic and still sound non-foolish? "Tragedy: only 10,000 people died out of the 50,000 in those towers. Now we'll only be able to milk one hour of airtime out of listing the names in a 'memorial' (with 'respectful' - we'll take the ad agencies' word on that - silent ads surrounding the content) instead of five!"

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[Anonymous Coward]

"As an American, a born-again Christian, and a caring human..."

Those last two don't go together.

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[Brento]

I got 6 insightfuls and 4 flamebaits. It just shows the most recent rating, I think. Whatever. I've got karma to burn. :-D

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[panic911]

Yeah I agree caveman. There are some total dicks on slashdot.

I'm sure that Katz didn't mean any harm or disrespect by this post, but some people just find a need to whine about stupid stuff.

Personally, Katz writes some of the most insightful stories, and dedicates more time to his stories than anybody else on slashdot. Flaming him isn't necessary, he isn't a bad guy.

Amen

[Cheeko]

Amen

I'll skip the normal katz bashing...

[cancrman]

especially the line about

First of all I just want to say PLEASE GIVE BLOOD IF YOU CAN. It doesn't matter where in the states you are, it matters. To use a misplaced quote, 'Just do it'.

Secondly, I express my deepest sorrows and condolences to anyone that has lost or had a loved one or friend injured in this attack. I does not need to be said how reproachful such a thing is.

But to bring this back to a Slashdot discussion, I feel that this will mean that there will be quite a restriction on some civil liberties as a result of this. I have no idea what they will be but they can't be good. The only thing that I can picture at this time (I'm quite numb after this day so forgive me if I don't express myself rationally, and I've had a couple of beers so that might explain my spelling). Anyway the only thing that I can see are Soviet style travel restrictions. I don't know what else they can do. Well I do remember being in France years ago when police would stand on the corner with automatic weapons. However, this would not have helped prevent what happened today. But with the conservites in the whitehouse, who knows what will happen. But you know, I don't think it would matter if the Dems were in the WH either at this point. Unfortunately something symbolic will have to be done. But will it be the right thing?

Sorry for the disconnected nature of this comment.

One more thing: Where are the Clintons? NY is Hillary's state after all.

Peace to all

Re:I'll skip the normal katz bashing...

[Now15]

Bill Clinton is in Australia at the moment.

Oh, and the Australian Prime Minister is currently in Washington.

(...hmmm, sounds like a fair swap to me...)

Re:I'll skip the normal katz bashing...

[t0sher]

That the problem in a country so big that it need internal flights. I've heard on the news however that the US is quite relaxed on travel, maybe thats not right. But we sure have armed guards and stuff sometimes in the UK. I guess you don't want to be hassled with passports and stuff when just popping down the coast though..

Its a tough situation :/

Re:I'll skip the normal katz bashing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny it may be, but Bill Clinton is in fact in Northern Queensland, Australia, in an undisclosed location. Apparently security is fairly tight so I can't get any more info.
And John Howard (the Australian Prime Minister) is in USA and unable to return to Australia due to the ban on flying.

heres something from my friend in new york

[psychalgia]

she lives at wagner edu, a short distance from the WTC buildings:

I can't even begin to explain how I feel. Dana woke me up this
morning telling me to look out my window. I couldn't believe what I
saw. After standing amazed for a while, I saw the world trade center
collapse. Amazing. It's like a disaster movie, I still can't
believe it's happening.

The entire floor is bonding and finding support from each other.
Classes have been cancelled today, and probably tomorrow. There are
buses going to local hospitals with blood donors. Many people have
family that worked at the World Trade Center, and it's hard to get
info.

It's so strange to look out at the skyline... the smoke is starting
to clear a bit, but how is it NY without those buildings?

Thank you all for your support, I will keep trying to call, but the
lines are really busy. "

Content

[ShadowsMV]

You all have probably seen this stuff by now, but I'm stashing everything I watch on my website at:
http://www.markvd.net/

Re:For the love of God...

[5foot2]

What a cold heartless person you are.

My Prayers go out to you all

[Angreallabeau]

My name is Ryan Peterson and I live in Victoria, BC, Canada. I just wanted to let every American know that this has hit Canada hard. My entire office is in shocked and you have our good thoughts and prayers. As your neighbor, I know we will do anything you ask of us. Right now, all I can do is pray for you all.

I know I can honestly say - that my entire nation is grieving for your loss.

My thoughts and Prayers to you all.

Love,

-Ryan Peterson
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you, Ryan. Your thoughts of us are much appreciated.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[geekoid]

Thank you.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[cloudmaster]

Thank you, Ryan.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[Jaysyn]

Many thanks.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[Zombie_Magick]

And positive thoughts come from us in Vancouver, BC. Spirits with you!

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[Anonymous Coward]

a friend in need is a friend indeed.
may Canada and the States always stand together
thanks
david

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[maelstrom]

Many thanks to all of our neighbours and friends around the world, its heartening to know that even though some of us have disagreed over other trivial matters, we can come together when it really matters.

Thanks.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[damm0]

Hello, I'm from Vancouver, BC, Canada.

My office is also in shock. Nobody is doing any work, we are simply watching the news and listening to the radio. Several people in my office have friends or relatives in New York, and it appears that one of our clients has lost an employee on the flight from Boston to LA. Some of our employees are in the US right now. Our deepest sorrows and love go out to those affected.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[dstone]

Also here in downtown Vancouver. More than a few businesses and restaurants spontaneously closed today in response. Starbucks, included.

Let's talk about compassion for the living and leave the justice and further violence for another day.

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[TraCer00t]

My office here in Montreal was also at a complete standstill all day, everybody kept reading the news and listening to the radio, hoping it would finally stop. I'm still in awe and shock that such a thing could even happen.

My heart goes out to everyone who has lost loved ones in this horrible tragedy.

Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[TheKodiak]

This is tasteless. JonKatz, the facts stand on their own face. Every one of us is capable of reacting to this without your help. Every one of us is capable of drawing conclusions without you leading us to them.

We all saw the videos, we all saw the photographs, we all felt, in some way, the explosions. If all you have to say is the same thing EVERYONE else has been saying, make your comment in the threads just like the rest of us. You should not be entitled to your own story on this. The story that contains the facts should still be on the top of the page.

Our New Pearl Harbor (-1, Troll)

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[hoover]

It is, in a way, his site. Whatever he sees fit
to post, he will, just as I see fit to post on
my site.

Face the facts or go somewhere else.

Uwe

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[Rimbo]

Oh, give me a break. Don't post your sour grapes because you're jealous of Jon Katz's permission.

I'm normally one to outright ignore what Katz has to say, but this was the one time, considering how frequently I not only disagree but feel the exact opposite of what he feels, the one time I was truly interested in what he had to say. And he feels the same as me. And as you. And that's comforting to me. We'll troll each other later, but this time, we see eye-to-eye.

This sucks, but it's bringing people together.

Good for Jon.

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[Col. Panic]

I'm going to have to stand up for Katz on this one. As a writer, it is his job to provide perspective on situations such as this. Lots of things can be considered tasteless today, but the personal reference about a friend in the building hits home for too many of us and I for one was sadly interested in that part.

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, why don't you chill out? He is mourning just like the rest of us. Mourning for the victims, our piece of mind , and our freedom.

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[falloutboy]

This is tasteless. JonKatz, the facts stand on their own face. Every one of us is capable of reacting to this without your help. Every one of us is capable of drawing conclusions without you leading us to them.

You must be new, so let me clue you in: this is called a "discussion forum." The idea is that, even when we all think the same thing, we share ideas. If you go back and read the Columbine threads you might catch the gist of it.

If you're still feeling self-righteous about posting that idiotic message (moderators: this one is for you, too) go find a local hospital and look for someone who seems upset. Ask him whats wrong, and when he starts to tell you, tell him to shut the fuck up because his feelings aren't really valid, and everyone else feels the same way.

Jon: my dad was in DC today. i spent most of the morning hitting redial to try and get his cell phone. eventually, i got through, and he's fine (renting a car to drive back to new york, of all places). my heart goes out to you.

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[SpamapS]

Ok, I'm not going to flame. Now is a time when the temptation to flame is too great. I know we're all in a bad mood. We have good reason, whether from the US or not.

But I ask you this. Who are you to say that JonKatz can't post a story? I myself don't have the time to read the comments on SlashDot every day. Even at Level 5, there are a lot of posts here to read. Jon Katz is just offering up his own experience, and asking us to comment on it as well. If he hadn't posted that story up here, I wouldn't have seen anything like this on slashdot.

Don't be so insensitive. We're geeks, not robots.

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[TheKodiak]

Here's a small clue - user numbers are sequential.

a list of the buisnesses at the WTC

[manuellabor2]

i have composed a buisness directory from a cached copy of http://www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/ and put it on my host here's the 583K HTML file (not recommended) http://janitor61.home.mindspring.com/list/bdir.htm here's a 24K ZIP file (recommended) http://janitor61.home.mindspring.com/list/bdir.zip mindspring will have my head for this my apologies if this has been posted in another form

Rising Sun - parallels

[Lawmeister]

Have you ever read Tom Clancey's novel, Rising Sun? The similarities are stunning - in that book the President (character Jack Ryan) had the terrorist leader's house bombed (with him in it) with a live video feed to the world as part of the retaliation.

Did you know that President Bush repealed a law last year that outlawed the hunting and execution of terrorist leaders? I will be watching to see what happens.

Condolences to all those whom lost loved ones in this horrible tragedy.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

President Bush repealed a law last year that outlawed the hunting and execution of terrorist leaders?

Uh, a nit here: Bush was not President last year.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

did you know that bush wasn't president last year?

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[sufiswirl]

I find that the Clancy novel Executive Action is more similar to the current situation, as it opens with a airliner crashing into the capitol building. Let's pray that the future will not parallel the novel, which progresses to biological terrorism against a confused America.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[zik0]

Bush? Last year?

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[jweb]

Tom Clancy never wrote a book called Rising Sun. However, as a serious Tom Clancy fan, the parallels between today's events and many of his works are startling. "Debt of Honor" ends with a 747 crash wiping out a joint session of Congress, supreme court, cabinet, and president. Other works tell tales of how huge nationwide bio-war attacks can be carried out (Executive Orders), or nuclear detonations in the US (Sum of All Fears).

I've often finished one of his works and thought "This sounds completely plausable, and entirely possible." Unfortunately, today we see that events like Clancy describes are not just works of fiction.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Jae]

wrong book - the book you mean is debt of honor. only instead of hitting the pentagon, they hit and took out most of congress.

thoughts to all poised by the phone and email worrying like i am.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

A picky point, but the Clancy book was Debt of Honor, not Rising Sun. Rising Sun was by Michael Crichton, and dealt with trade practices, rather than a shooting war, between the US and Japan.

Having gotten that off my chest, I also offer my condolences to the victims and their families.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[reflector]

Did you know that President Bush repealed a law last year that outlawed the hunting and execution of terrorist leaders? I will be watching to see what happens.

Didn't know he was in office last year...

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that President Bush repealed a law last year that outlawed the hunting and execution of terrorist leaders? I will be watching to see what happens.

I may be a bit confused here, but I don't recall that President Bush was in a position to repeal any laws last year, while President Clinton was still in office.

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Jaysyn]

No but I've read the Michael Crichton(sp?) book Rising Sun.

Jaysyn

Re:Rising Sun - parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

I think what was being referenced was Red Storm Rising, which basically tracked the development of world war three.

Technology?

[FTL]

> Technology turns planes into weapons

What technology? Guy walks into a plane, shoots pilots, and turns the yoke. These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago. What is this rant about technology for?

Re:Technology?

[shayne321]

What technology? Guy walks into a plane, shoots pilots, and turns the yoke. These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago. What is this rant about technology for?

AGREED 100%. If anything today has taught us that all of our technology so far has NOT prepared us for or protected us from a terrorist attack of this magnitude. For God sakes they didn't have 15-million-dollar laser-guides missiles to attack us, they took our own planes and guided them into the most densely populated structure (to my knowledge) in the U.S. Where's the technology in that? Even McVeigh's oklahoma city bomb was more advanced than that.

What's this technology he's talking about allowing video and images to spread all around the world? I actually had to go borrow a radio from one of my coworkers because the net radio station I normally listen to has been down all day, and other net radio stations are sporadic at best. Even CNN has been reduced to showing a crude mostly-text page with one picture to keep from buckling under the load.

If anything, this attack has shown us how fragile our technology is, and that technology is no substitute for good foreign policy and crisis management.

Shayne

Re:Technology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to overstate the obvious, but...
If not for technology, there would be no airplane to crash. (Or gun to shoot pilots, for that matter)

Airplanes (the primary example of technology in Katz's post) are normally good things. The world would be a vastly different place without them.

But that doesn't change the fact that a group of people has turned a small handful of them into very powerful weapons, killing tens of thousands

Re:Technology?

[NerdSlayer]

If only there was some sort of technology that could help prevent this.

It's time to make some decisions (not all of which are easy in life). Do you want to live free or be free to live?

Re:Technology?

[aozilla]

These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago.

The towers were specifically built to withstand a direct hit from a 707, which was the largest plane at the time of construction. Whether or not it they actually would have withstood such a hit is unknown, of course.

Re:Technology?

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there was some sort of technology that could help prevent this.

Manned missle turrets on the top of the WTC combined with a no fly zone in the area would have prevented the loss of most of the lives.

Re:Technology?

[dachshund]

Whether or not it they actually would have withstood such a hit is unknown, of course.

According to the same news everyone else is watching (there's technology!), the design did not give much thought to the secondary effects of the heat on the structure, or to mass-evacuation requirements.

Re:Technology?

[ackthpt]

Phone call from a flight attendant aboard one of the jets which hit the WTC, was that the hijackers (two of them) stabbed flight crew, before breaking into the flight deck. Not even using guns, but relying on strength in numbers.

As for technology, I first heard over the radio and gained first images of what was going on from a small TV in a nearby office. The internet, CNN, and the usual sites were all slashdotted.

As 3 jets of 5 hit what appear to be the intended targets, I expect the hijackers knew something about how to take over the controls enough to fly the jets into their targets. The jet which crashed in PA was heard, from mountain bikers on the ground, to rev the engines a couple times before crashing. From that I draw the conclusion of a struggle to control the aircraft, by hijackers or flight crew. Hopefully recovered flight recorders will shed some light on who did this.

Re:Technology?

[bay43270]

CNN is reporting that at least one plane was taken over with knives.

Re:Technology?

[TandyMasterControl]

What technology? Guy walks into a plane, shoots pilots, and turns the yoke.These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago. What is this rant about technology for?

Indeed, according to CNN reports about a cellphone call made during the attack from Barbara Olsen, a victim in one of the planes and wife of the controversial Solicitor General Ted Olsen, the terrorists were armed with knives and boxcutters. Any more low-tech than that and they would have been armed with sharpened sticks and rocks.

The only thing that can ultimately defend against terrorism is signals intelligence --high tech. We have insanely high capabilities in this area and use them. The problem is that committed terrorists will always find a way. They are capable of keeping their mouths shut, thereby defeating some of our intelligence gathering tech. They are also essentially impossible to penetrate with human agents, and they resourceful and willing to go to "war" with primitive weapons, and they don't care about dying.

The one shocker in this is not that they did it. After all, Israel has been assassinating Palestinians suspected of terror activities wholesale lately -- America's leaders were arrogant fools if they thought they could let this campaign go on, and continue to back Sharon, and not suffer any consequences for it here at home. (Sorry if it offends people that I assume that an arab extremist group is behind it). Neither is it a surprise to me where they did it, nor how they did it, but that we were not prepared at all for the contingency of multiple airliners being diverted for kamikaze attacks. And that, though it is extremely plain what is afoot looking at the paths of these planes on FAA radar records, apparently no interceptors were scrambled to at least follow and splash them if needed.
I thought civilian and military air traffic control was better coordinated than this. I bet from now on it will be. I also suspect there will be a call for co-pilots to be "security officers" and both they and pilots to fly armed.

Re:Technology?

[mitheral]

Even CNN has been reduced to showing a crude mostly-text page with one picture to keep from buckling under the load.

Ah, the web as it should be.

--
When we get in the habit of pausing to ask "What does this situation have to teach me?", we get out of the habit of judging others.

Re:Technology?

[TedSbar]

They can do this today but it is very expensive. A switch that can be thrown that turns control over to a tower or to an autopilot that lands at the next field. no matter what anyone did even the pilot did to get control, the plane would land. This would have saved the day. I gotta go to bed.

Please.

[michaelo]

Please don't get rassistic of all this. Please notice that this isn't an act of "the Palestinians" or something like this.

This is the act of a bunch of mad people. Even if the percantage of mad persons might be higher in some peoples - it wasn't a people who did this.
Please keep that in mind.
Thanks.
J.

Re:Please.

[TWR]

Please notice that this isn't an act of "the Palestinians" or something like this

No, but notice that "the Palestinians" are dancing in the streets in joy. Kill them.

Remember Amalek.

-jon

Re:Please.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care if it was all of the people or none of them, the fact is they are dancing in the streets celebrating a great loss of innocent life. THAT IS WORTHY OF DEATH. ANYONE WHO CELEBRATES THIS DAY SHOULD SUFFER THE FATE OF THOSE WHO DIED TODAY.

Screw the middle east

Re:Please.

[Anonymous Coward]

hate breeds hate. try to break the cycle.

People hating and hurting you shouldn't be the only reason for hating them.

Re:Please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'll try to do that, as I watch Palestinians dance and cheer on TV. Fuck 'em.

Yes, they are not all mad, and yes, they have their own hard times, but such a reaction is not very tasteful, now is it? Nor will it be very beneficial to their cause.

--Ton

Re:Please.

[Anonymous Coward]

one way to 'break the cycle' is to obliterate one side in the issue.

hate can't breed in a smoking gravel pit.

Re:Please.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you overestimate your judgement of what and who is sane "friend".

Re:Please.

[Telal]

I guess all the Americans who cheered as bombs hit Baghdad ought to get killed too. Yeah, right. Cheering at what happened is wrong, but you've got to pay attention to the context - in this case the belief that the friend of one's enemy is also an enemy.

Re:Please.

[michaelo]

Certainly this is fuckingly annoying and not very tasteful.
But you have to imagine how these people were educated, what they went through..
To not become very radical in this situation must be awfully hard if not impossible!
I don't want to defend the terrorists - no way. I don't want these people to go on partying and dacning about the thousands of killed - no way.
But I do defend these dancing and partying people a little bit. Oppression over a long period of time can drive people crazy!
J.

Re:Please.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean that they're dancing just like the sailors on the USS Vincenze after the US Navy shot down an airplane full of mothers and children during the "police action" in the Gulf ?

You mean dancing like that ?

Oh, then why weren't all those sailors executed ?

Re:Please.

[TWR]

You're a fucking moron. The USS Vincenze shot down a jet which was (1) coming towards them and (2) did not identify themselves. They thought it was an attack. They responded. They were horrified when they found out that it was a civilian jet liner. The US paid reparations and apologized profusely.

To begin to compare that to what Bin Laden and his followers did shows you are a reprehensible bastard. And one too cowardly to even sign his name.

-jon

Bad timing

[autocracy]

I'll go to the point of responding somewhat to the article in saying that it sounds much like somebody read Debt of Honor and put a spin on it when they did this.

As for the rest, I'd think that now would be a good time to not post articles from JonKatz. Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now. And it's not his right to comment that I'm complainin about - everyone has that right here. It's his right to be front page material. Slashdot has its ups, the prior 3 articles fitting there, and it has its downs - and this one is way down there. JonKatz (whether you be a person or an alternate account for some other name on the site), please read your articles before you think to put them on the site, and make sure that they both make sense, and have a point rather than are just there - and in some cases just there and insensitive.

Re:Bad timing

[Tsar cr0bar]

I'm going to repeat what the parent post said, because it bears repeating:

Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now

It looks like JonKatz has jumped in along with all the other talking heads trying to score +5, Insightful when really he should be -3, Sophomoric

Re:Bad timing

[Shtock]

This is not 'bad timing.' It happens to be an honest, eloquent reaction to an actual, horrible event. There's a reason JonKatz has earned 'front page material' status: he's proven himself capable of giving expression to feelings and offering insight to situations.

I found his description very moving and entirely appropriate, considering what useless garbage we can expect from highly paid commentators on TV.

His article was not meant to make sense - it's about being human.

Re:Bad timing

[krogoth]

Stories should pass the e2 test - if they would be nuked on e2, they wouldn't be posted here. This story wouldn't pass.

Re:Bad timing

[jacobito]

I think you're the one being insensitive here. Katz has as much of a right to post his feelings about what happened -- and apparently today's events have hit him personally -- as anyone else. His article was sincere and heartfelt. How dare you and others like you jump all over him like this, when he is mourning like the rest of the country.

It is your reply that is an example of bad timing. I know you and your vocal minority have made up your minds about Katz and are going to hate what he says whenever he says it, but save your stupid kneejerk reactions for some other time. They're truly inappropriate.

Re:Bad timing

[autocracy]

Everybody has every right to post to this site. I just don't believe that Katz has kept his right to post on the front page of it. This article didn't seem to me, at least, like some heart felt sorrow article. Katz has the incredible ability to sound like a mindless being when he writes. I truly doubt that he is such (then again - experimental slaschode?), and I believe that anybody not shocked by the horror of this event is incapable of true emotion and I don't doubt that he was shocked. Obviously from the moderation I've recieved, the parent to this is quite controversial.

So, to give clear understanding of what I intend to say - This bombing was tragic. Katz's article really felt like a bad news report that didn't fit. We all mourn those hurt or inujured and pray for their families. I believe Katz shouldn't have front page rights. Anybody still alive who held a known part in the execution of this horrible act should suffer a dull drill bit. Thank you.

Hang first make questions latter

[humpback]

This is going to happen. People are going to die because suffering people need to see other suffering.

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth will only make mankind blind and toothless" The more or lesse sentence is by M.Gandhi.

Remenber what Hemos posted:

"Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people first thought about the OKC attack."

Re:Hang first make questions latter

[michaelo]

An eye for an eye only ends us making the whole world blind. -- Mahatma Ghandi

I found this as original some weeks ago.
J.

Jesus Christ

[Catullus]

Well done, Jon, this is the first time any of your articles have made me nauseated enough to block you from appearing on my front page. You've truly excelled yourself.

(OT)Page for those who are alive in NYC

[Yanna]

This website is meant for everyone who is caught in NYC and need to communicate their families/ friends that they are alive and ok.

It is said that cell phones are unusable, so people can post their names to make a list of survivors.

Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[NoWhere Man]

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apprt by Chaos, while the fotress undures, the great leader will succumb" "The third big war will begin when the big City is burning"
quote -Nostradamus- 1654 n. C.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[FFFish]

Pshaw. NYC is about as opposite a "City of God" as exists!

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[Figaro]

So....you don't believe that the US beholds more to Money than a Diety?

I believe in God, but I feel that my majority in the US is shrinking.

There's a reason we call it the "Almighty Dollar".

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[bigdavex]

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apprt by Chaos, while the fotress undures, the great leader will succumb" "The third big war will begin when the big City is burning" quote -Nostradamus- 1654 n. C.

This has already been refuted once today by nparr. Geez.

Here's his post copied for your convience. Please mod him up.

This is not real

Just do a search on google for this phrase. If I make say a thousand prophecies that are fairly abstract for example:

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb

Well let us analyse this. For Example what does City of God mean? It could be Mecca, Medina, Rome, Jeruselum, Salt Lake City, or any holy city depending on your religion. What do I mean by thunder--a storm? War? EarthQuake? lots of stuff can be described by thunder. There are a lot of two brothers on this world (I think the Number runs among the Billions) and fortress edure's what--Besiegement, Famine, etc? What Great Leader? How will he succumb? To what?

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[starman97]

Subject: Re: 911

Subject: 911 GOD HELLP US!!!

A Prediction:

A Mr. Xinoehpoel will be visited by many uniformed me with automatic weapons and taken before an Inquisitor..

His future becomes hazy beyond this point..

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[driftwood]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought about this quote from Nostrodamus. I'm just glad that my vision of a nuclear attack against New York hasn't come true...yet.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[ryanwright]

There is no reference to this quote in the Nostradamus quote search engine. Nevermind the fact that Nostradamus died in 1566.

Please, check your facts before spreading rumors...

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[Pope]

It's been posted a number of times before, and as true then as it is now, IT MEANS NOTHING.
Nostradamus' so-called predictions are vague and do not predict the future. One cannot predict the future.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[Anonymous Coward]

The homepage refered to, never says this is actually a Nostradamus prediction. In fact I think it's just an example from the author to show how easily you can make up a nostradamus-quatrain.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[Anonymous Coward]

I predict that all of the news shows will have extensive coverage of the trade center attack tomorrow.

You can predict the future, based on observerations, past events, or by just plain guessing -- but there's no guarantee that your predictions will be correct.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[Anonymous Coward]

bullshit:
can you break a des cipher? reality and this
standard have as many simultaneous possibilites or less-this is pure-dee crud "IT is a number game."

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[seanmeister]

Interesting - I read Xineohpoel's original "prophecy" that was posted on 8/31/01. He originally stated that something would happen on 9/1/01 ("911"). When that didn't happen, on 9/4 he said "Wait 7 days, and then maybe I'll answer this post. You see, I am going away in seven days, and you will not hear from me again."

Now, I'm inclined to believe that alt.prophecies.nostradamus is populated by full-on wackadoos, but that's a pretty good call.

And the real kicker now is that the original 911 post from 8/31 has disappeared from groups.google.com. What's up with that??

How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[-douggy]

Surely if the WTC has been hit twice they have a way of defending the pentagon. I know missiles seems almost as awful but what if it had been the whitehouse?

Re:How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[phillymjs]

They never go into specifics in documentaries about the White House, but it does indeed have some sort of anti-aircraft weaponry deployed around it, you can be fairly certain of that. After today, there will probably be more.

One would think that a rather important site like the Pentagon would have it too... though obviously they do not. I'm sure they'll change that as soon as possible now, but that's just closing the barn door after the horse has already gotten out.

~Philly

Re: How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[Anonymous Coward]

The White House is protected 24/7 by agents armed with Stinger man portable ground to air heat seeking missles. However, these are generally accepted to be ineffective against 100,000 lbs + of airplane traveling at many hundreds of miles per hour.
Simply put there are people positioned to shoot them down, but inertia rules the day. Of course, now we're looking at a no-fly zone that extends for hundreds of miles, and is enforced by fighter aircraft.

Re:How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Pentagon is right next to Ronald Reagan National airport and the flight path is right over their heads so shooting nearby airplanes isn't really an option. The White House is not on any flight paths so missles are an option there. Supposedly there is in fact an AA missle battery on the roof but I don't know if that is just rumour or not.

Re:How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[scrod]

Don't forget that the thought of commercial airliners crashing into buildings like the Pentagon and WTC was almost never expected. What they probably WERE planned for, however, was a plane dropping a bomb on Washington.

Re:How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, I lived in DC for many years. The approach into what was then National Airport (Reagan Airport I think now?) runs right next to the Pentagon. It would have been trivial for Pentagon defenses to have thought this was just another flight about to land at National, and one veer, and 15 seconds later....they are into the building. We are not talking any distance here at all...perhaps a half mile at most...which for a plane traveling at flight speeds, is covered VERY quickly.

Cybersquatters have no decency

[Anonymous Coward]

www.worldtradecenter.com

Re:Cybersquatters have no decency

[humpback]

go to www.networksolutions.com and use the whois service. That domain was registerd in 1996.

And yet...

[krmt]

And yet it's still the people that matter, not the technology. We all know that, and despite this being a site for nerds, this is stuff that Matters. I don't know anyone in New York, and I'm all the way out here in California, but every five minutes I feel like I'm going to break out in tears just from what I've heard and read. I am scared, saddened, and humbled by this today.

This isn't Armageddon. That sounds too much like the stupid movie and it cheapens the fact that someone somewhere is responsible for this. This is the real thing, and it's not about the planes or the black boxes or the television. It's about the people, because that's what Matters.

Re:And yet...

[Darlock]

I feel the same way and I'm in Canada. Somehow the world doesn't seem like such a wonderful place anymore.

Re:And yet...

[Vain]

I'd have to agree, I couldn't have said it any better myself... When the first tower fell I almost broke into tears.

Re:And yet...

[fawlty]

I'm feeling that way too.. I've never cried at anyone's death, but this.. The death toll will probably be close to the population of my home town of Gilroy. A whole zip code of people. I'm kind of stunned.

My brother just joined the marines three months ago.. I praying for him too.

Mirrors of news sites; check Google.

[Forkenhoppen]

Google's front page now contains links to a few major news sites, along with links to their own mirrors of those sites. If you're trying to access a given news organization's reports on recent events, I suggest checking Google for a mirrored link.

Re:Mirrors of news sites; check Google.

[mrsmalkav]

Wow. Thank you, Google. I have been a faithful user of Google for a number of years now, but today I'm really impresesd. The person that thought to do that should get a cookie. That's damn good use of technology.

Re:Mirrors of news sites; check Google.

[Faux_Pseudo]

In case we needed any perspective on how big these events are the fact that Google has made change like this to their main page makes the point all the more.

It isn't Pearl Harbor

[rw2]

As I said here

"""
You know what, this Pearl Harbor ][ stuff is bull. This is Hiroshima ][, both in terms of bombing innocents and the death toll. The scary part, Dubyas ill conceived Star Wars sequal wouldn't have made a bit of difference in this case. *That's* why the military has all their brass out there talking about Pearl Harbor. Don't let them distract you, this is Hiroshima ][ and it shows what a waste of $60B Star Wars ][ is. Pass it on.
"""

Re:It isn't Pearl Harbor

[tachyon]

In your own words, this is bull. The Japanese knew they were at war. The action taken by the US against Hiroshima averted an invasion that would have dwarfed the Normandy invasion and could have cost many more lives, both Japanese and American.

Re:It isn't Pearl Harbor

[GordoSlasher]

The Pearl Harbor analogy is not about the loss of innocent lives. It's about a surprise attack. It's about the first attack on the US mainland in modern history.

One news reporter called this a wake-up call just as Pearl Harbor was a wake-up call. I disagree. The wake-up call was the WTC bombing in the 90's. We've been hitting the snooze button for years. I just can't understand why folks like Osama Bin Landen, Qadaffi, and Saddam Hussein are still in business.

You're right, Dubya's Star Wars would have been completely ineffective against this attack. Why doesn't the Pentagon have any defenses? Even the White House is/was defenseless - remember that little plane that crashed on the White House lawn a few years back? I bet that plane that crashed in Pittsburgh was on the way to the White House or the Capital, and you can bet they would not have been intercepted.

Re:It isn't Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

First post i've read that makes some sense.
But the abomb was the result of declared,
war and hostilities already declared publicly:
maybe the US population is too stupid to realize
that when somebody or some culture says you
should die, they mean what they say.

Re:It isn't Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

An American journalist said in his book that the American government had known Japanese attacks at Pearl Harbor in advance. I'm not sure it is true, but it is very interesting.

( If, if the American government knew this WTC case in advance, too. It is very similar to Pearl Harbor.... )

unsure of how to behave

[Glowing Fish]

After I found out just how bad the disaster was, I was afraid of stepping outside, for fear that going about my normal life would be somehow disrespectful. But we needed food (and I, for the fifth time in my life, needed some alcohol) so I decided to go to the bank and to the store.

Here, in Portland, OR every one seems pretty normal. People are talking about it, and of course everyone is upset, but it seems like people are not going into hysterics. People seem to be going about their daily lives. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

the only thing that is really different is...no planes in the sky

Re: unsure of how to behave

[geekoid]

Hello fellow Portlander.

Its a good thing. We can't cower, or they win.

we must also be sure we don't let our rights get taken away in the name of 'anti-terrorism'

but for the immediate, find out when the Red-Cross wants you to give blood, and do so.

I felt the same way when I left for work this morning, the best I could think to do was wear black, and put my flag at half-staff.

Re: unsure of how to behave

[Anonymous Coward]

This act has so many potential ramifications for the US people and the world. You should be angry, you should be saddened, you should be anything but simply bland.

I live in Minnesota, and I didn't find out about this until I looked at slashdot. I thought it was a joke.. until I turned on the TV.

The bewilderment that this could happen, has happened, and what may now happen has caused me to come close to tears numerous times today. I am not christian, so I do not pray. I can only hope that the families can heal, wish that this never happens again, and support the US as it wipes the people who are responsible did this off the face of the Earth.

Re: unsure of how to behave

[zulux]

I agree!

I wept when I saw footage of the second jet hit the WTC - I was looking out the window and saw a mom taking het child out for a walk. There was no terror is her eyes, and I knew that we have won. The terrorist have lost.

War

[FortKnox]

As you've probably read in the other articles (and which will eventually bleed into this article) is how people are shunning others comparing this to Pearl Harbor and war.

I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.

Your first reaction is to use our strength to fight back, but as the days start to come between present and this tragedy, you'll find out how terrorist cells work.

Their is very little communication between the cells, and the cells are very sparcely located. Result? Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.

We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.

Re:War

[StevenMaurer]

It's a lot easier than many people think.

Terrorists, like soldiers, must be trained to be effective. Not everybody knows how to penetrate international borders, hijack a plane, or build a bomb. In fact, trying to do so without training can be very dangerous to your health.

Deprive potential terrorists the necessary means, logistical support, and training and the most of the problem goes away. Don't believe me? Israel has pursued a strategy of killing Palestilian bomb makers, and now more Palestinians are dying trying to build or deliver bombs than ever get to the "suicide bombing" part. Their attacks have become progressively less effective.

The truth is that the U.S. has not been particularly aggressive going after regimes that use terrorism. There are some economic and travel restrictions on Lybia, Afghanistan, etc, but that's about it. The little the U.S. does do is typically limited in scope and only in "response" to terrorist acts. Almost none of it is pro-active.

If the U.S. decides to seriously go after the states that train, harbor, and encourage terrorists, terrorism will be reduced to a tiny annoyance in short order. I am not certain that even in the face of this abomination the U.S. would pursue such an extended action, as it is always very reticent to commit its troops directly, but if it doesn't happen after this, it never will.

Re:War

[myboysherman]

Even if we assume this is an act of foreign origin, it seems unlikely that a government was involved. That being the case, the bombing is not an act of war, but an act of crime. If we wish to pretend to be a just society we should consider not military retaliation but arrest and trial.

Bombing people for the crimes of their fellow citizens in the hopes that we might kill a few who were involved, is a crime no better than that of the hijackers.

Given the nature of modern warfare, I would argue that this principle holds even if a government was involved.

Re:War

[myboysherman]

... the bombing is not an act...

I meant hijack/colliding of course.

Re:War

[Anonymous Coward]

If the U.S. decides to seriously go after the states that train, harbor, and encourage terrorists, terrorism will be reduced to a tiny annoyance in short order.

Presumably you meant "if the U.S. decides to seriously fo after the other states that train, harbor and encourage terrorists, terrorism will be reduced to a tiny annoyance, except against those targets that the U.S. is promoting it against."

I'm not sure it's that easy. Aprart from anything else, sometimes our own terrorist groups turn against us.

Re:War

[dachshund]

If the U.S. decides to seriously go after the states that train, harbor, and encourage terrorists

Amen. Any state that is giving a single dollar to terrorist organizations should be given a strong warning. Give money to terrorists and you'd better find another planet to live on.

PS CNN tells me that we just started bombing Afghanistan. Isn't this a bit soon?

Re:War

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... Let's start with the country that trained bin Laden!

Doh.

Re:War

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths" I'm sorry, but that sort of mentality is severely screwed up. No one should wish a "slow and painful" death upon -anyone-, nor a quick and violent one -- it was the wishes of a small, unknown few to cause the deaths of Americans that resulted in the current tragedy. Wishing more violence, no matter how angry you might be, will simply -result- in more violence. When it really comes down to it, if you search deep into your soul as you are able, do you -honestly- wish more deaths to occur?

Re:War

[speby]

As quoted my Martin Luther King, Jr. in "Pilgrimage to Nonviolence" published along with a collection of sermons in 1964:
He quotes in part III, paragraph I:
"More recently I have come to see the need for the method of nonviolence in international relations. Although I was not yet convinced of its efficacy in conflicts between nations, I felt that while war could never be a positive good, it could serve as a negative good by preventing the spread and growth of an evil force. War, horrible as it is, might be preferable to surrender to a totalitarian system. But I now believe that the potential destructiveness of modern weapons totally rules out the possibility of war ever again achieving a negative good. I we assume that mankind has a right to survive, then we must find an alternative to war and destruction. In our day of space vehicales and guided ballistic missiles, the choice is either nonviolence or nonexistence."
As goofy as it for me to post this, I felt it necessary because it seemed to apply quite well in the wake of Tuesday's complete demise of the WTC and Pentagon. As much as America's desire is to rip apart those who are responsible for the acts of that day, I do believe we must restrain the knee-jerk reaction to run ourselves into war. Clearly, the responsible must be held accountable, but how? The question that Americans SHOULD focus on is not whether we ought to enter war, but rather how do we express justice in this matter without another raging onslaught of violence from ourselves?

Re:War

[PD]

The explosions in Kabul were caused by non-Taliban forces taking advantage of the situation to attack the Taliban stronghold. The Taliban does not control the entire country of Afghanistan. Training and equipping these rebels is one possible thing that I think the government will explore, but I fear what we will reap 20 or 30 years from now when the people we helped turn out to be just like the Taliban, but with a different name.

Anyway, these people are STUPID. WHY THE HELL would they decide to attack now and complicate everything. When the situation worldwide is as grim as it is, why the HELL would they pick this moment to light off a string of firecrackers???

I am relatively happy that here in the U.S. calls for blood are relatively scarce (with the exception of the blockheaded defense "expert" I was listening to on MSNBC. He was suggesting that we start assasinating people we identify as threats.)

I have a better suggestion. Assasination might be something we have to do in the future, but right now we must realize that the difference between us and the hijacking monsters is that we are like those who built the Library at Alexandria, and the monsters are like those who sacked and burned it. That means we pursue justice, not revenge. That means that we don't cheer in the streets when people die (shame on a few idiots in Palistine and Pakistan). That means that we pursue justice once evidence has been collected. So I agree with you. It's too soon to be bombing anyone.

Re:War

[humblefar]

Precisely, and Osama Bin Laden was trained by ... CIA. Deal aggressively with that...

Re:War

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad thing is that the CIA itself funded the Mujahideen militants to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. In fact, Orrin Hatch, the senator from Utah claimed responsibility for "funding" the Mujahideen during his short-lived presidential campaign.

Re:War

[Xouba]

>I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths

I wouldn't. Though in times like this I understand why some people agree with death penalty.

I think that we should get the authors of this crime and get them to watch what they did: the people jumping from the buildings, the children orphaned, the mutilated ones, the families destroyed.

If *that* doesn't affect them, killing them is not worth. That's what they're asking for. And many of their followers would think they are martyrs, and many would follow their steps, giving no end to this whole nightmare.

But don't ask me what I would do if I had one of the culprits in front of me. I may very well forget all my beliefs and substitute them for genuine animal rage.

--

Xouba

The World Trade Center was a monument.

[fiore42]

It was a monument to men - men who loved life, and chose to create. Men who, with a strong back and stronger mind, chose to create something noble.

It was a monument to those men, in that it was a living, useful building - not dead, pointless marble. It was a monument to those people who believed in life.

It is still a monument.

It is now a monument to "men" - men who hate life, hate nobility, hate those who are good - because they're good.

It is a monument to those who try and hide their hatred of everything noble and true, by shoving it into some "greater good", be it the "greater good" of the "race", "proletariat", "people", "believers", "nation", and choose not to see that there are only men - precious, irreplacable, individual men, too precious to sacrifice to a fiction.

Re:The World Trade Center was a monument.

[greenrd]

What utter nonsense. If you do not believe in killing some people for a greater good (this was how Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "justified" in the mainstream) you must be a pacifist. The only people who do not believe in a greater good are a subset of the total pacifists, and most people are not total pacifists.

Re:The World Trade Center was a monument.

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess "women" need not apply.

Re:The World Trade Center was a monument.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said. Thank you.

Re:The World Trade Center was a monument.

[fiore42]

According to the rules of the English language, "men" may, depending on context, refer to the totality of the human race.

Jackass.

Re:The World Trade Center was a monument.

[sergiolucero]

I don't quite agree with your poetic interpretation. To me, ignorant foreigner that I am, the WTC stood for the economic powers that have sucked the 3rd world dry and won't stop at anything because greed knows no limits.

I will never justify terrorism or putting an end to anyone's life in any way other than euthanasia, but instead of calls for retaliation, I would rather see people wondering why and establishing the obvious link between today and the hatred that US domination in all things economic and military generates. And please don't give any more airtime to angry Republicans using this tragedy to justify spending more money in "defence".

Retaliation

[B. Samedi]

We should strike back. That is not in question. But we should strike back against the proper targets. We should not just attack everything we consider a terrorist because we are going to hit the wrong targets. Then when that happens we simply make another enemy. But we shouldn't be talking attack at the moment. Let that wait till tomorrow. Today we should mourn and gather our dead.

Re:Retaliation

[dstone]

We should strike back. That is not in question. But we should strike back against the proper targets.

Whoa. I sincerely hope "striking back" is still in question. Striking back will validate a terrorist organization's need to feel that they affected/disturbed/disrupted American lives. That is a very empowering thing. It's acknowledgement that the superpower considers you worth their time. Who has more to lose? More keen future awareness and stepping up reasonable protection (while keeping society free) should not be in question. That's common sense and won't result in escalation. But striking back against even one obviously "proper target" should be questioned very carefully. Do you believe your strike will be the final word? That is naive. Ask yourself... who has more to lose in a "proper" strike back and the resulting actions?

Re:Retaliation

[tachyon]

Therefore the people responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people should not be punished?

Re:Retaliation

[B. Samedi]

Whoa. I sincerely hope "striking back" is still in question.

Striking back can even be as simple as find and arresting those responsible and bringing them trial. It's what I would prefer to be honest. Lock them up for life and let them rot. I personally think a good solution is to treat them like criminals. Don't treat them like warriors but like the killers they are.

Re:Retaliation

[dstone]

Therefore the people responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people should not be punished?

It's a tough question. Frustrating. Our regular concepts of justice and punishment are put to the test here. Consider a mass murderer put to death or in prison by our justice system. Will there be related retaliation that will kill our innocent citizens? Possibly, but highly unlikely. Now in today's case, if we dispense our idea of justice out of our system that isn't respected by a group of people with lots of resources and terrible intentions, will there be retaliation that will kill our innocent citizens? A very real possibility. And if it does happen at all, it will be nasty because of the beliefs and resources of whoever is at work here.

So if we can manage a lucid moment here amongst all the tragedy, we may well decide that punishment is in order. I just hope that we also acknowledge and accept that delivering what we believe is proper punishment may result in more innocent people being killed in retaliation. As citizens in a free (but moral) society we shouldn't have to pay with our lives in unfair situations like this, but it does happen and when we have a choice like this to make ahead of time, we should consider all possibilities.

We have a real decision facing us, but neither path is going to be very satisfying.

Re:Retaliation

[jonathan_ingram]

My heart goes out to anyone connected to someone who died today -- family, friend, co-worker. I am also genuinely scared about what your country is going to do next.

I was watching a truely scary interview today with a military analyst. He said that the US should 'strike back, and strike back quickly against the terrorists that did this'. When the interviewer pointed out that we don't know who did this, and asked which terrorist groups America should attack, the analyst said 'all of them'.

I can see a lot of innocent people being killed, a lot of countries destabilized, and an escalation in the hatred of the US coming from this. Thank god the USSR isn't still around, or we would probably be watching the nukes dropping around now.

May your personal choice of God be with you.

Re:Retaliation

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, then let them be 'validated.'

Fucking dead and validated. And if others want to line up and get 'validated' as well, so be it.

sounds okay to me.

Re:Retaliation

[Jason Earl]

Yes, I am sure that they will feel exceptionally well validated in hell.

It is certainly possible to have "the final word." The Nazis are no longer a threat to world peace because we (and that includes more than just Americans) went into Germany and rooted them out. We then proceeded to hunt the entire world for those guilty parties that had fled. Once those folks were gone we could go about the task of rebuilding Europe (including Germany).

You can bet that when we find the bastards responsible for this that we will do likewise. Heck, it is even possible that some of our fellow Americans are responsible. It makes no difference what their nationality is. They are madmen and must be brought to justice at any price.

When we are done, those responsible, and all those people who aid them will either be in prison or dead. And the world will be safer for it. Until the next set of crazies.

Re:Retaliation

[Anonymous Coward]

They are madmen and must be brought to justice at any price.

at the price of more innocent people being dragged into their retaliation? you can't exterminate all the guilty in one fell swoop. well, you can try, but if it doesn't work out... don't go whining that you didn't know they were going to get even more pissed off and kill your further innocent americans. this is a lot different than bringing a regular murderer to trial.

Re:Retaliation

[crsm]

Am I not an American, but I don't think your responce should be limited to striking back.

I feel USA up to today have shown far too much restraint in tackling those groups who presumedly did this terrible action. USA have for years resented to a containment strategy towards terrorism (embargos, fligt-restrictions, and other low-level sanctions) instead of aggresively pursuing the people and regimes behind these organizations.

What is needed is a change of strategy: You need to fight the regimes supporting those groups more directly than today.

Yes, that would mean US soldiers in Afghanistan, in Irak, in Libya, in Sudan... everywhere on the planet earth where terrorism has is roots, where it rests, where it plan these gross misdeeds. And yes, it will costs many of your soldiers life, but theres no alternative if you wan't to stay free.

Re:Retaliation

[Jason Earl]

Ha, the entire nation of Germany fought tooth and nail to keep Hitler out of our grasp. However, in the end most Germans today would tell you that they are glad that we did rid their country of Hitler.

Was the price worth it? Probably. Would it have been easier if the German people had risen up against Hitler and his cronies themselves? Definitely. If the German people had rid themselves of this madman it would have saved millions of lives. The fact that the Germans failed to remove Hitler put them in the sights of the Allied forces, and completely destroyed their country. Even so it was a close thing.

We are now at war with these terrorists and everyone that shields them or who would take their place. To do otherwise is to condemn ourselves to live in fear of the next attack. Will some of the people who are hurt be innocent victims, almost certainly. But it is not our fault that they are in the way. All things considered they should be revolting against their leaders themselves. Saving us the trouble of doing it for them.

Can you imagine living in a country that actually encouraged people to acts of terrorism like the one we witnessed today? In some parts of the world people are dancing in the street because of our dead. I can honestly say that this would not be the case if the shoe were on the other foot. If Americans had done this to Palestinians we would find the bastards responsible, and we would hand them over for "trial."

As long as their are people that are willing to do such horrible things what choice do we have but to oppose them?

Re:Retaliation

[equalize]

I have a personal belief that the US Government knows of people who are terrorists... Bin Laden comes to mind. I think that we should go after the targets that we know are involved in terrorist actions against the United States. The reaction to bomb any suspected is crazy! Maybe the DEA did it way back when, but from what I have heard we DO have knowledge of people like Bin Laden, what they've done, where they are... No action should be taken unless we are sure that these people cause terrorism in the United States, but from what I've seen, and heard, we do have knowledge of persons who have committed acts against the people of the United States.

We don't have to attack for what happened today, but we could find out from attacking, capturing, or immobilizing those people who feel that actions like what happened today, or what happened with the embassy bombings, or the USS Cole bombing are acceptable.

Re:Retaliation

[psike]

We sat here in Australia transfixed and horrified by the visions from NYC last night.

Why did this happen? Instead of looking to retaliate I think the US should also take a long hard look at it's foreign policy. What could drive people to such ends?

A few years ago I was in Cambodia, where literally tens of thousands of innocents have been killed or maimed as a result of US land mines scattered in a country who was not officially in the Viet Nam war. Kids without legs because of an act of terrorism more than 20 years ago.

Who could do such things?

The events today are horrific but they do not justify the killing of another single innocent person. Learn from history and don't ignore it. Today it seemed that the horror of war in many 3rd world countries was brought NYC and Washington. It's not nice, please don't inflict it on another community.

Re:Retaliation

[duffbeer703]

I don't think that you have absorbed the enormity of what has happened here. There may be 10-30 THOUSAND people dead.

We need to send a strong message to every group who would consider doing such a thing that if they do, they will die.

War is a brutal, horrible thing. Unfortunately, violence & death is the only thing understood by these people.

Re:Retaliation

[FatHogByTheAss]

The events today are horrific but they do not justify the killing of another single innocent person.

Certainly it does. The events today justify leaving most of the shithole desert where these fucks come from a smoking ruin.

Learn from history and don't ignore it.

OkeeDoke. How about Neville Chamberlin. Theres some history you shouldn't ignore.

This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[Ghoser777]

When Pearl Harbor was bombed, we knew who to retailiate against. There was a target we could single out and mobilize against. Here we don't know who attacked us, or how we would retaliate. It's like swatting a fly in an open field; there may not be a lot of flies, but because they are so hard to pinpoint, or even hit (since they can move freely), swatting even some of the flies is probabalistic at best.

I hope Bush has a good plan, because I have no idea what I would do in his shoes (except for maybe go back to Washington and make a comforting speech).

F-bacher

re:Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

Pesticides are used against flies, unfortunately they kill the good bugs too. Looks like the good bugs should have been eating the bad bugs in their neighborhoods if they didn't want the giant to gas them too. Too late now.

Re:Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

Pesticides are used against flies, unfortunately they kill the good bugs too. Looks like the good bugs should have been eating the bad bugs in their neighborhoods if they didn't want the giant to gas them too. Too late now.

Sorry, were you arguing for the US or for the terrorists there?

Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[miracle69]

Not only is it not the same because we don't know who, but it's not the same because it is a cowardly scumsucking thing to do.

Pearl Harbor was a military attack on a military target - a target that had at least some warning (length of which is debatable).

This is a terrorist/military attack on civilian targets with civilian instruments. It's only comparison to Pearl Harbor will be the giant it stirs within the American People.

Personally, I hope we build the largest structure mankind has ever attempted on the ruins of the WTC.

Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[frknfrk]

since they can move freely


the point would be to make sure that these terrorists cannot move freely - to enlist all the nations of the world to destroying terrorism.

of course, the United States would have to stop being a terrorist state also, maybe stop arming rebels (like they funded Usama bin Laden while he was a hailed 'freedom fighter' for Afghanistan vs. the Soviet Union).

-sam

Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that while the few hundred known terrorists (like bin Laden) can't freely move about, the hundreds of other terrorists they employ can. The terrorist leader (probably Usama Bin Laden, but I'm pretty sure he's not the only suspect) who coordinated this didn't do these attacks, he had his lesser know lackeys do it. The only way to possibly stop ALL terrorists from conspiring and doing anything would be to make the entire planet a police state, which isn't going to happen (at least I hope not).

Today

[Purple_Walrus]

At school i walk into the math office at about 9:30AM to scan my book in. On the radio i hear something about the WTC and planes crashing into them... I assume this is some sort of computer game someone is playing and not the real radio.

5mins later an announcement comes over the loudspeaker about NYC and the pentagon...

My school principal's son in law worked at the WTC, and at 2:30PM she still did not know whether he was alive... This is deffinately not cool.

If those guys had something against the government, then i can understand the attacks on the pentagon, but the WTC? Why? There were civilans there!

It's hard to imagine what something like that would feel like until it acutally happens... this has been a strange day.

Re:Today

[greenrd]

the WTC? Why?

Symbolic center of Western capitalism.

There were civilans there!

Since when has that stopped suicide bombers?

Re:Today

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya know what dipshit: there were civilians working in the Pentagon too. Ya know what else: even those people in uniforms are people. They don't deserve to die either.

Attacking the Pentagon is not understandable. It's "deffinately not cool", you literarily challenged moron.

Re:Today

[Anonymous Coward]

Your missing the point of Terrorism they consider all Americans potential targets because they are not proper military personel that have refined there rules of war for years in a code that has been eroded for the last few hunded years.

The DEA comment is appropriate find every terrorist or suspected terrorist kick down the door and show them the working end of the a MP5. International terrorism is an international crime and thus outside of our laws at the same time we dont extend our laws to terrorists just take them out can kill them without warning.

US citizens lives are all we are supposed to be concerned about primarly then our friendly nations citizens. The lives of people around a terrorist may be the sad cost we will have to pay and there families will have to pay so that we can deliver our message:

Do not EVER attack us in our homes when you do we will destroy your home and anybody around you that doent activley try to stop you.

This is also a very good reason to slow or stop allowing just any forigner access to this country. International terrorism can be resolved without limiting the rights of the majority of the US people while removing all rights of forign nationals.

wrong

[geekoid]

Technology turns planes into weapons.

Wrong. People turn planes into weapons.

Re:wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

So, if the latter is the case, then all we have to do is control the minds of all people on the planet and we will have solved the problem.

Or, if the former is the case, then all we have to do is take away all the technology, then we will be safe.

Could two statements be any more useless?

Re:wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Charlton Heston:

Planes don't kill buildings
People kill buildings.

Shakespeare

[Anonymous Coward]

Oft have I heard that grief softens the mind,

And makes it fearful and degenerate;

Think therefore on revenge and cease to weep!

But who can cease to weep and look on this?

-Henry VI, Part II, Act IV, Scene IV

Thanks John

[gruntvald]

Who better to comment on this tragedy, on /., than Katz. Amen, brother.

Re:It's too late, JonKatz

[TheKodiak]

Is JonKatz HIMSELF hunting me down? I can't believe that 5 points have already been wasted modding me down as flamebait and a troll. How low can I go, in a response to a (-1) response to a (-1)? Is ANYONE reading my posts here but JonKatz's most valiant defenders?

I was there also, peoples reactions are mixed.

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

People went from amazement to shock, to anger. To put the Television on and see those kids and adults jumping around for joy that someone had struck such a blow. He we were standing on the Hudson thinking how awful it was, watching the towers fall and seeing someone else on the other side of the world jumping for joy.

I really hope that we as a nation take the correct next step, what has happend is horrible but what could come because of it chills me to the bones. On one side I want to strike back, on the other I am scared straigh shitless of what will come from the actions that are sure to follow. Our world has changed, I mean mine and everyone else. Because where you want to see it or not this is going to have an impact on all of us, not just the US. Get ready, because someone is poking the sleeping giant and I fear what will happen.

WTC pictures from the Hudson

Know The Enemy

[Anonymous Coward]

People not on the net are saying about this disaster that it is the whackos and extremists and that they have to be stopped even at the expense of some civil liberties. "Hey I personally don't need some of them anyway." But this disaster should not be a surprise to any reader of Slashdot or prorev.com or various other net news sources. Because corporations have been doing nefarious things in the name of the USA people for a long time. Many people "in the know" are aware of this,
just go to rtmark.com or one of hundreds of sites
which show what has been happening. But most Americans think this was a FIRST and UNPROVOKED attack. Yes all who died were innocent but what happened to lead to this? Why are people angry? That's the tough question and the smart one to ask and sadly it is one that USA govt and corporations will not and cannot address.

Re:rebuilding the towers, Make them bigger

[Haxx]

If I remember correctly the Twin Towers USED TO BE the 5th and 6th largest buildings on the planet. If we build new ones I think they should be the largest buildings on the planet to show greatness out of this tragedy.

These will be the images that we remember forever

[paranoidia]

None of us will get these images out of our head. The fact that technology these days bring them to use faster does not mean they are worse. Everyone saw the challenger crash and remembers the image of all the pieces of the craft breaking up. For us youngsters, this is what we will remember, and what we're asked about by our children. People need to see these images to understand how the victims and their families are feeling. This will unite us as a nation, these images will go down in history. sadly.

Reminds me of that old song....

[quonsar]

"Don't it always seem to go,
that you don't know what you got till it's gone,
PAVE PALESTINE AND PUT UP A PARKING LOT"

Re:Reminds me of that old song....

[greenrd]

That's just sick. How would you like it if I said "all arab-haters should be sent to gas chambers"?

In the wake of these attacks, it's even more important to have zero tolerance against racism. Racism is no friend of freedom.

Korean 747 forced down in Whitehorse, BC

[Anonymous Coward]

Television news in Seattle is reporting that US and Canadian airforce fighters have forced a Korean 747 to land in Whitehorse, BC. The plane had signalned that it was hijacked before being forced to land. A crew mamber has been taken from the plane and is speaking with authorities. More than 200 passengers and crew remain on the plane. Whitehorse is the capitol of the Yukon and has a population of only 20,000.

How come...

[codeforprofit2]

...there is no nagging on slashdot a day as this one about FBI wiretapping the internet and phones?

Re:How come...

[Anonymous Coward]

The current power structure in the US has created such a terrible mess of the world and you want these same people to fix it by "wiretapping the internet and phones?" What kind of logic is that?
People are opposed to such a massive intrusion in their lives for obvious reasons. Of course, every legal means should be used to hunt down the people responsible for this terrorist act and prosecute them in a fair trial according to international law. (Fat chance of that happening considering the US contempt of international law.) But that does not mean that I hand over near absolute power to institutions to routinely monitor all its citizens. There is way too much room for abuse of power as history amply illustrates. And besides, you have to give compelling evidence to show your need to have more power...and that evidence is not there.
Bin Laden has been an outspoken critic of the US for a long time and as such his phone calls were almost certainly being monitored. I am not objecting to that because he has made threats and so you could give an argument for wiretapping him but what good did that do hear?

massive bloody revenge

[lseltzer]

It's imperative that our response to this be overwhelming and that it scare the living crap out of the rest of the world. Other governments need to know that they don't want these people operating from their space.

But what really scares me now is how easy it was for them to do (at least) 4 coordinated hijackings. It's been many years since there was a hijacking in the US. Airport security is going to be getting a lot more imposing and inconvenient in the coming days.

Blaming Technology????

[runtimeerror7]

I pray for all the lives lost and feel deeply saddened by what has happened. but ur article, i should say is written in hurry and meaninglessly blames "technology". which is absolutely bull shit. its not technology which converted the aeroplanes into missiles, but it was ppl who used it in that way.

Face recognition, ...

[dragisha]

Combined with fingerprint and/or retina verification, on each and every airport in civilized world. This would be good security measure. Inserted in some giant movement tracking database crosslinked with all other pieces of intelligence data, would do VERY good prevention job.

I understand American fixation with cavity searches, but it is too slow, too many people would complain hard - many on religious grounds and this does not exclude possibility of few martial arts trainees taking over airplane without anything except bare hands and legs.

Re:Face recognition, ...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Combined with fingerprint and/or retina >verification, on each and every airport in >civilized world. This would be good security >measure. Inserted in some giant movement >tracking database crosslinked with all other >pieces of intelligence data, would do VERY good >prevention job.

It can't help - nobody can do it for ALL people in WORLD.

Just do not create enemy.

Re:Face recognition, ...

[Waitak]

But think about it. "They" (whoever "they" are) have just struck a horrific blow to the US people and the world economy, using hijacked domestic flights as a weapon. Does anybody really think that this particular weapon will ever be used again? Yes, this is certainly an act of war, but it's just as certain that the next blow won't come from an airplane. We can protect the airports and put guards on the flights if we like, but I don't think it'll matter.

Think about ...

[halftrack]

... how technology isn't the solution to everything.

... how technology have improved the lives of humans on earth.

... how technology doesn't save life, humans do (and for some God.) They invent, learn.

... what we should learn now.

Stuff the drama, Katz.

[JimTheta]

Step off the drama, Katz. You haven't said anything particularly important or notable here; it's just the same "Pearl Harbor" hype that the established news outlets are pushing. That might work for the TV masses, but it's not appropriate here.

If you can't post substance, then please don't post. I just get the impression that you only posted because you've got this delusion of yourself as an insightful person who has insightful things to say, and you thought there would be a hole here if your name could not be found.

This article was not insightful. It was a rehash of every other "insightful" thing that has already been on the news today.

-Grant/"JimTheta"

(I know I'm gonna get troll-modded for this, but I need to say it. At least I used my real name, instead of AC'ing it, like so many others.)

Re:Stuff the drama, Katz.

[Saadhaka]

I don't know about troll-modded, maybe more along the lines of being dragged out into the streets and stoned. Why don't you step off the Katz bashing and think about how much of a heartless puke you are. I could only hope that you die alone and not even Katz runs the story.

Re:Stuff the drama, Katz.

[greenrd]

The previous poster said Katz was "not insightful". You then accused him of the verbal equivalent of dragging Katz into the streets and stoning him. Then you accussed the poster of being a "heartless puke".

You need your head examined. The Katz article really wasn't insightful, to anyone with an IQ higher than Dubya's.

Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[feed_me_cereal]

I fear somthing worse than random beatings of asian-americans by intolerant morons screaming "give us back our pilot" as we experienced when a US spyplane crashed in china. Everyone must make a pledge to not only be rational today, not only be rational for months, but to defend rationalism, wherever you see it diminished. There will be a wave of racism and search for scapegoats like we've never seen. Make sure this enourmous tragedy doesn't get any worse. Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted. Remember, the american way is under attack. Protect it. Don't give in to witch-hunts. The only call for blood we should worry about right now is the one from the red cross!

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[pivko]

Yes, I could not express it any better. What is my worst fear now, that there will be some politicians who will try to get the most of this horrible situation and will call for revenge regardless of the target. I think this is a real challenge for the western world, it must not result in pointless rage of witchhunts.

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[Velex]

Unfortunatly, the American way IS witchhunts. Remember what happened at Salem? Remember slavery? Remember Japanese internment?

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[dolanh]

Thank you for posting that.

One of my colleagues is a devout Muslim from Iran. He also happens to be one of the nicest, kindest people you would ever hope to meet.

In light of recent events, I don't envy his next few weeks.

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[tsarina]

I agree completely. And in that, let's not all accuse Osama bin Laden yet. I know it seems like he's the most likely culprit, but don't assume that! Please! At my school, EVERYONE immediately assumed that it was some Arab country/faction/whatever. But there are a considerable number of people I know who are/look of Arab ancestry. I can vouch that none of them participated in the bombings. (Duh!) So let's not let this cause another internment! Please!

I'm not even sure this was another country. Indeed, after Oklahoma City everyone thought it was those Arabs. Turned out it was an American. Whoever did this was absolutely organized, it is true, but that doesn't mean Americans couldn't do it. They used a different tactic than what's been used before - kamikaze hijackings. The whole thing seems so surreal, so impossible, it's almost like one of our crummy American blow-em-up movies.

Even if it was another country, I still don't want war to result. Surely our country is large enough that we could respond in a more civilized manner! It's just it remains for our leaders and our citizens to find the guts and rationality to do so.

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[Arandir]

It's also the way of the rest of the world. Remember where Salem learned its trade from, who sold the slaves to us, and why there's no comparison between Manzanar and Nanking.

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[feed_me_cereal]

name me a succesfull government that isn't wrought with treachery. I made the comment in hopes and support of pre-emptively thwarting a continuing trend and hopefully focusing people on the "ideal" american way; the one which many people have strayed from durring the events you mentioned, and continue to stray from. The most specific ideal would be that in the US, people have tried to foster the ideal that you are innocent before proven guilty. An ideal that did not previously exist in force, and an ideal which changed the world for the better. Defend it.

Condemn witch-hunts and fix systems that create and support them. The "american way", in the ideal, is NOT witch-hunts. Make sure american actions match them as closely as possible.

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[RavensDark]

Unfortunatley it may not be that easy. There will be a hell of a lot of people screaming for some kind of response.

There will be a lot of uninformed voters who will be out for blood. The politicians will have to be seen to act or they will be seen to do nothing. We can but hope we dont come to regret anything that they may chose to do in response.

No-one knows for sure who did it, lashing out blindly will not help the injured or bring back the dead.

A new war

[[verse]Eskil]

Let us all hope this is not the start of a new war because it will be a war that no one will ever win.

I think this should be the end to violence. we do not need violence in our world, today has been yet an other proof of that, unfortionaly not the first such day.

This has lead to nothing but suffering, and any retaliation will lead to nothing but suffering and the prospect of further retaliation.

This is a tragedy no one can retaliate our way out of.

I don't know who did this, and frankly i don't care that much, I know what i need to know about the people who did this. I will never be like them.

E

last year? quite a feat

[rkanodia]

"Did you know that President Bush repealed a law last year that outlawed the hunting and execution of terrorist leaders? I will be watching to see what happens."

That would be quite a feat, since it means that President Bush has not only invented a time machine and made himself the President a couple months early, but also managed to remove legislative capabilites from Congress and vest them in himself.

"Technology turns planes into weapons???"

[-=OmegaMan=-]

You high?

How is this *remotely* a case of "technology" turning planes into weapons? It seems more to be fanatics turning planes into weapons.

And fanatics are nothing new.

Re:rebuilding the towers.. - YES.

[Olentangy]

YES!

And each tower should have one extra floor added as a memorial to those who died.

And to show that while our enemies may strike, we will always bounce back better.

-- michael

Pictures from the top of WTC towers

[IVotedIn2000]

www.nyctourist.com, offering tours of the top of the WTC towers, has incredible pictures from the top. The best ones are here:

http://www.nyctourist.com/wtc_new5.htm

It's very slow though... I'll try and see if I can get a mirror up - maybe someone else can too?

Horrid

[ksb]

I've been watching the events of this tragedy on the news and slashdot all afternoon and I can say that I have never felt such sorrow as I feel for the people involved and affected by this pointless act, my heart goes out to you all! Whether or not the USA decides to retaliate in all out culling of terrorism one thing is true, things will now change, the days of tolerance will now end, and I for one am behind the civilised world acting with extreme force against people who seek to undermine democracy.

A time to band together

[SilentReproach]

This morning I went from happily discussing the mundane things of life, such as Monday Night Football, to the stunning shock of today's events. These events are so far reaching, it has got to be the single greatest tragedy on American soil I can remember in my lifetime.

It's a time when people with something in common, anything at all in common, band together to share feelings that we would not ordinarily share. It's a time to not have ugly feelings towards our neighbors of other ethnic, racial or national backgrounds, but rather a time to share in the common grief that comes from such a loss of humanity.

It's neither religious nor non-religious ideals at fault. "Godless" communists who persecute Tibetans differ not from "Christians" who crusaded against godless "pagans".

Rather, it's the implementation of beliefs at fault. for example, the UN has a statue out front of a man beating a sword into a plow, and the plaque on the statue quotes the prophet Isaiah's words. This is a good moral tenet, and if only those who believe in what is good would do good, rather than abuse others as a result of their convictions.

It is like Pearl

[Henry V .009]

This is the greatest attack on American soil in our history. The cost in life will overwhelm that of Pearl Harbor.

This attack of terrorism was a tremendous miscalculation on the part of its perpetrators. Just like the Japanese before WWII, they will have "awakened a sleeping giant."

On the other hand, we have only begun to see the cost to ourselves. We'll survive, undoubtably, but there will be a great bill to pay. Our economy will plunge into Recession and may even flirt with Depression before this is over.

The National Review Online seems to be the first news organization to start with major opinion commentary. Check it out.

Re:It is like Pearl

[jonathan_ingram]

Pearl Harbour wasn't about killing people. It was about destroying machinery. At that it was stunningly successful -- the once reason it wasn't *more* successful is that the US had advance warning, and had managed to move much of the fleet out of danger.

--

As to what happens to your country now: reactionary opinion will make the government much more hard-line and right wing. Many of your rights will be taken away in the interests of 'national security', and never given back, even when the threat is long gone. Your govenment will use an (imagined or not) external threat to pull the country together, and to stop the economy from collapsing.

The golden age of information and encryption freedom may well be over. Remember -- 'only people with something illegal to say would need to encrypt their messages'.

If I could I *would* mod you down...

[Sheepdot]

..not because of what you have to say, but because you are clearly speculating on something that we aren't certain about yet.

Everyone seemed pretty damn certain Oklahoma City was an outside terrorist toying with our country, we all know how that ended up.

Sheep are people that go with the flow, they are lead one direction or another. Trust me, I've dealt with a few.

So while you may or may not be correct in your assumptions, don't play victim to the moderators when you are making assumptions and speculating as to who may have done this.

The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.

Re:If I could I *would* mod you down...

[Sebastopol]

The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.

Thank you. This is the first objective reply I've gotten (of course, I've posted rather irrationally for the past few hours, so I can understand some of the angry words). You make a very good point that I hadn't thought of.

Your reply is exactly why I read/post to slashdot in the first place. I'd be the first to admit I don't have everything figured out, so I deliberately post my flaming, raw, unrationalized opinions to /., and I rely on the collective brainpower to either mod me down, publish an opinion that agrees with mine, or a dissenting statement that rationally disarms my position. Yours was the latter.

It's all a social experiment: I'd rather be modded as a troll on /. than beat up in real life for shooting my mouth off.

Re:If I could I *would* mod you down...

[The Fanfan]

Yes, there's a lot of speculation going on mass scale retaliations and all that. Way to early to discuss it.

Clearly, would a foreign nation be involved in this, they're pretty much cooked. Actually, they would be so cooked that it seems completly improbable any dictator would touch this kind of operation with a 11 feet pole. If anything, dictators tend to care a lot for their own survival.

And there are so many sides such a horror could come from. Bin Laden and similar "Islamic" crackpots are a possibility indeed. But there are also a lot of well financed domestic groups who could do that too, apocalyptic sects, etc. There are, alas, precedents of complex terrorists operations which had nothing to do with state-sponsored terrorism. Just remember what Aum Shirinkyo did in Japan in the past decade.

So in the mean time, chill down. Anyway, revenge is sweeter when eaten cold.

Re:If I could I *would* mod you down...

[feces_tossin_primate]

you children need to take an antidote to whatever holistic vegan "don't kill no animal" crap it is you swallow on a daily basis that makes you spew this noxious nonsense.
Search'in for McVeigh??? No such luck this time... check the captures from the boston cameras.. War, and rumours of war...

Re:If I could I *would* mod you down...

[nonchalance]

Good point.
Now here's a thought. September 11. An attack on the World Trade Centre.
Anyone else thought of S11?
I know they're a peaceful group, and don't advocate this kind of horror, but all it takes is a few fringe extremists...
I don't actually think it was them, but you do have to think of possibilities.

Re:If I could I *would* mod you down...

[dan_bethe]

I'd be the first to admit I don't have everything figured out, so I deliberately post my flaming, raw, unrationalized opinions to /., and I rely on the collective brainpower to either mod me down, publish an opinion that agrees with mine, or a dissenting statement that rationally disarms my position. Yours was the latter. It's all a social experiment: I'd rather be modded as a troll on /. than beat up in real life for shooting my mouth off.

Hi there. Good intentions. I would suggest that next time, you experiment in a more responsible fashion by stating your intentions to begin with. Thanks.

Not Pearl Harbor

[Fideaux!]

I think that Daniel Schorr on NPR said it the best, "Pearl Harbor had a return address, Japan."

Even if Bin Laden did do this, whom do we attack? Where do we send the troops?

Pearl Harbor was clear cut. There was an enemy, and we knew were they were. It brought the horror of WWII home to America, and motivated and inspired the greatest wartime mobilization in history.

This attack and the reprecussions will certainly lean towards fear, confusion and sadly, isolation.

This is really a terrifying end to the American Century.

Re:Not Pearl Harbor

[D.Chavez]

I agree, this was NOT Pearl Harbor, and I get annoyed when I hear people at my work talking about how it's "so much like Pearl Harbor". That's crap. There are only two things that this incident has in common with Pearl Harbor: It was a surprise, and it was an act of war. But let's look at the list of differences:
1) Pearl Harbor was preventable, had we been as alert as we should have been, considering a WAR was raging across the world. Perhaps airport security should have been tighter, but I don't think that would have made a difference. These people were far too committed to fail.
2) Pearl Harbor was a strike against MILITARY targets, designed to destroy our ability to militarily respond. It was never intended to kill civilians and inspire terror. In fact, relatively few civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor; and the Japanese certainly never shot up a hospital as was portrayed in a recent film. This incident was an attack on the civilian population of the US. You can argue about the Pentagon, but at least half the people in that building are civilian anyway...probably more.
3) We knew while the attack was going on who was responsible during the Pearl Harbor attack. We have no idea at this point who is responsible for this. The assumption that everyone has made is that some Middle Eastern terrorists are responsible, but I actually find that unlikely. I tend to think it was an inside job: domestic terrorists. I don't think that Middle Eastern terorrists would be able to pull something like this off, even in a country as free as the US, because they simply don't know how things work here. And as the Oklahoma City bombing showed, domestic terrorists can be very destructive as well.

The most important thing right now is not to jump to cause...Assuming ANYTHING about this situation is incredibly bad. It's human nature to want to pick the most obvious explanation (possibly due to Occam's Razor). In this case, however, all things are NOT equal, and Occam's Razor does not apply. The best thing that we can do now is work hard to find the people who inspiredthis. If we can capture them, great. Put them on trial and give them the death penalty. I suspect no judge in the country would refuse that sentence. If we can't, then waste them. The world would be better without them. However, nailing the wrong people would be doing the same thing to some other innocent people that was done to us, and that's not right. Major decisions should not be made while angry.

Anyway, that's my $.02. Flame at will.

Re:Not Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, obviously we send the troops after Bin Laden.

In black scuba gear with razor sharp knives. In big green trucks. On planes carrying cruise missles. On ships with big fucking guns.

What were you proposing?

Re:not pearl harbor

[linzeal]

yeah the palestines are not at war with israel!!! ??? So long as the USofArms Trading is supporting israel we (you, me, and everyone here stateside) are an enemy of whoever israel deems less than human today.

Go ahead dehumanize the palestinian people!!! We have been doing it for years, call them ragheads, sandniggers, what fucking ever than slaughter them like some cheap barnyard animal gone loco, because that is the way the world treats them anyway.

Im so sorry to have say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

What goes around comes around.

Today america feel what kind of pain they have
caused other parts of the world.

Re:Im so sorry to have say this...

[nadryan]

Go to hell! 10,000 people are dead and all you have to say is "What goes around comes around"? You are a sorry excuse for a human being!

Re:Im so sorry to have say this...

[duck0r]

Well, 10,000 people have died.. it's a sarrow. But you must keep in mind the US funds Isreal, in return ISREAL kills thosands of innocent people, rapes muslim women.. lets end this war over Juresulm WICH EVER RELIGION YOU ARE.. WE ARE ALL DIEING STOP THIS ... JUST WORK OUT A PLAN MUST IT BE OWNED BY ONE COUNTRY?! .. just MAKE IT INTERNATAIONAL landmark, this is point less, muslims, jews, and chistantiosn alike are all suffring!

Technology doesn't turn planes into weapons

[Chas]

Men do. Sick, twisted individuals who are willing to kill and maim tens of thousands simply to give their ideals exposure in an international theater.

Justice isn't possible in this case. There's no way to make up for the loss of thousands of lives and the damage it will do to thousands more. What happens next is self preservation. Elimination of these people so that this will NEVER be repeated again. In our lifetime, or any other.

Those who planned, aided, and abbetted this heinous act have sown the wind. Now, for the sake of protecting the rest of humanity from these animals, the US will now become the whirlwind.

Re:For the love of God...

[Anonymous Coward]

where are my mod points when i need them. Someone jag John Katz, please?

My friend is safe, barely.

[Jason Levine]

I went online immediately when I heard and got in contact with my friend's mother. I was shocked to find out he worked 1 block away from the Trade Center. Thank God, he was late to work today and was ok. For awhile there, I thought he might have been dead. If this had been a half hour later though, he might have been amoung the injured (if not worse). To think, his life came down to a half hour's timing.....

He told me that when he exited the subway (2 blocks away), he saw what happened and headed in the opposite direction as fast as he could. 10 minutes later, the towers started collapsing...

I'm dreading the casulty reports. 50,000 people a day work in/visit the WTC towers. And those planes would account for who knows how much more. Not to mention any casulties from the Pentagon. Tens of thousands dead I'm sure.

I'm not normally one to side with military action. Most of the time I advocate diplomacy. But this time there's no room for a "diplomatic response." I say we find whoever's responsible for this (my money's on Bin Laden) and send a few missles where the sun don't shine.

New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you ?

While the events today are of course a perverse display of violence aimed at civilians, no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.

Another thing: There is a lot of sentiment that this is Islamic terrorists, or the like. Remember Timothy Mc. Vein ? The press was blowing that one up as a mid-east terrorist attack, until *investigation* reveiled it was in fact a genuine misguided U.S. citizen.

Think people. Don't get carried away in anger with a blind wish for vengence.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[NerdSlayer]

It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you ?

While the events today are of course a perverse display of violence aimed at civilians, no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.

Hmm... though we were at WAR and we were hitting strategic military targets to stop this little thing called World War II (maybe you've heard of it, I'm assuming we saved you country) and save many of our servicemen's lives, as opposed to being civilian-only terrorism with no claims of responsibility for no clearly apparent reason.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Smegma4U]

The problem with your line of thinking is that Nagasaki and Hiroshima occurred during a war between the U.S. and Japan, while the attack on Pearl Harbor and today's events occurred outside a state of war. And if the people responsible feel that they are at war with the U.S., then maybe they ought to claim responsibility for their actions.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you, on crack?

"no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever. "

We flew planes over the islands for almost a week, dropping pamphlets that explained clearly in english, mandarin, kanji, and hiragana what was going to happen.

Get a history class before you try to make historic comparisons.

- StoneCypher

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

Let me phrase it differently then, without going into the politics:

I suggest you put up a memorial, reading:
"Let all souls here rest in peace, for we shall not repeat the evil."

The text is taken from the diary of Michihiko Hachiya, written on the 8th of August 1945, when you "saved my country" in Hiroshima.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you? While the events today are of course a perverse display of violence aimed at civilians, no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.


You callous idiot. How anyone could imply that the thousands of people who died today somehow all deserved it just blows me away. The people on these planes had nothing to do with Nagasaki and Hiroshima. They weren't selling weapons to Israel. The idea that killing citizens of a nation is justified by past actions of other citizens of that nation is repulsive in any form. I shudder to think what you'd be like if you were raised in an environment more predisposed to zealotry and terrorism-- maybe you would've been driving a fifth plane.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

Hey, Mr. Polite AC, did you read my post ??

I do by no means support attacks on civilians, no matter what weapon is used (and a passenger aircraft turned out to be an efficient weapon today). Let me repeat so that you maybe understand: I do not support murdering civilians !

What I'm worried about, is that some prejudicious freak is going to bomb half the world because not doing so would be the end of his political career - because his people expects retaliation.

Retaliation without any form of justification.

That is my worry.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh shut up fool. and learn to spell.
Pearl Harbor, Timothy McVeigh

We were in a state of war with Japan when we dropped the bomb, and the alternative was even greater loss of life taking Japan island by island. Even then, in hindsight (which is 20/20) we shouldn't have dropped the bomb, and that's why US policy has never been first strike, but always retaliatory use of nukes.

This is an undeclared act of war. hence the parallels are closer to Pearl Harbor, or the Nazi blitz on Poland, or Saddam Hussein swamping Kuwait, rather than acts that occurred during wartime, such as the fire bombing of Dresden, or nuking Japan.

jem

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

The civilian populations of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were warned the day before the bombings to evacuate the area.

Given that I'm sure you can point out plenty of other things that my country has done that you don't like.

However the fact that you can attack my country in this day of tragedy is incredible.

"Oestergaard": very personally from an American to you: go fuck yourself.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

In 1998 you bombed a chemical factory on the grounds that "it produced chemical weapons" and it was "owned by Osama Bin Laden".

Both "facts" turned out to be untrue, later.

Sure it can't have been more than a few hundred workers. Accidents happen. But as far as I know, the U.S. is not at war with Afghanistan.

I'm not trying to balance accounts here - I'm just trying to make people reflect on what has happened, and why pointing your guns in random directions looking for a scapegoat will only backfire, again.

When you bite, make damn sure you bite the right dog.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Mr. Polite AC, did you read my post ??

Yes, and you discussed how the U.S. has done repugnant things before, and how this might be them "coming back to haunt us", and so on. If your implication was that we might do so again in retaliation, I see your point-- we should obviously avoid such a thing. However, I didn't see that mentioned in your original post; it looked a lot more like "well shit guys, you deserved it, at least a little". No one deserves this.

On the retaliation front, I'm not entirely comforted that the one Dubya sound bite being reposted everywhere is "we will punish them.". That's what we need-- pumping up the bloodthirst.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

The civilian populations of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were warned the day before the bombings to evacuate the area.

So there were no casualties other than military personnel I presume? Come on... If a waning doesn't make a difference, it doesn't matter.

I heard that some guy publishing a small magazine in NY was warned about this three weeks ago. Still, it made no difference.

Given that I'm sure you can point out plenty of other things that my country has done that you don't like.

Now you totally miss the point.

However the fact that you can attack my country in this day of tragedy is incredible.

I am not attacking you. I am trying to tell you that you should carefully consider your response to this.

The fact that you take this as an attack, is *exactly* what worries me.

"Oestergaard": very personally from an American to you: go fuck yourself.

That one you'll get for free.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you ? ...the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.

Interesting that you believe that... the US warned Japan at least twice that, unless they surrendered, they would use a weapon of mass destruction to kill thousands of people.

Then, after the first bomb, they warned then again... and the Japanese military again ignored the warning, thinking that the US either didn't have another bomb, or would be unwilling to use it.

These were the same leaders that lied to their own Naval officers before the attack on Pearl Harbor, and told them that the US would recieve 30 minutes warning; because otherwise, those officers would refuse something as dishonorable as a surprise attack before a declaration of war... I have been to the Pearl Harbor memorial, and seen Japanese ex-military men crying softly and asking the dead for forgiveness.

Take some time and read about actual history instead of propaganda fluff pieces crafted to jerk you around by your emotions. It's an amazing and, if you'll pardon the obvious, an enlightening experience.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[slashdot2.2sucks]

The irony of your statement is absolutely disgusting. To speak of a country ignorant of its evil actions, Japan is the worst example. During WWII, Japan's actions toward the people of China were as terrible as the Nazi mass murders. Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking.

To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.

Yes non-military citizens did die from the atom bombs and that was a horrible tragedy, but they were knowing located very near strategic military bases, and the actions of Japan were evil and had to be stoped.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... though we were at WAR and we were hitting strategic military targets to stop this little thing called World War II (maybe you've heard of it, I'm assuming we saved you country) and save many of our servicemen's lives, as opposed to being civilian-only terrorism with no claims of responsibility for no clearly apparent reason.

Well, on the other hand, do a search on the Web for a counting of the number of Iraqi dead because of US bombing, and more importantly, children dead because of the American embargo. This will be 10 times to 100 times than the final counting in NY. And that's a lot of extremely pissed parents, don't you think?

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me, Oestergaard == Oesterreich?
Is is a germanism to say: ", or?" at the end of a sentence (wahr, oder? und ja, ich spreche deutsch, und 2 andere "indogermanische" sprachen)

In my country's and my people's moment of tragedy, you want to point out that we are not perfect either.

Thanks, Oestergaard. I guess the message is that we deserve it; what goes around comes around, right Oestergaard? Or are you suggesting that my people take this as a well-deserved warning?

And you are not very smart either:
hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.

Then I point out that the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were warned, and you say that it doesn't matter anyway, as you presumable know (or just don't care) that their governments did not take the threat seriously and refused to evacuate the area, so suddenly it doesn't count if the people don't heed the warning.

Why don't you point out the Allied firebombing in Germany and Austria and the resulting civilian deaths? Or better, why don't you just fucking forget WWII? It's over and the people involved are almost all dead.

You have the right to hate my country and my people, which is the only emotion I can think of for speaking out against my country in an incredible moment of tragedy (and then following up with inconsistent logic in your ridiculous reply).

And I have the right to think you are a prick.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[pokrefke]

"no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever."

Please forgive me while I try to forget that Japan is just as guilty of the same crime.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

Tell me, Oestergaard == Oesterreich?
Is is a germanism to say: ", or?" at the end of a sentence (wahr, oder? und ja, ich spreche deutsch, und 2 andere "indogermanische" sprachen)

Nice try. If you had a look at my homepage you would know that this is in fact my name, and that I am not german or austrian.

In my country's and my people's moment of tragedy, you want to point out that we are not perfect either.

Exactly. And I hope that you will remember that the world at large is not perfect.

I hoped that this could make people reflect on the situation, and perhaps think a little before starting an all-out war on the middle east (with the possibility of finding out in a year from now that the tragedy was inflicted by a native U.S. militia).

Then I point out that the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were warned, and you say that it doesn't matter anyway, as you presumable know (or just don't care) that their governments did not take the threat seriously and refused to evacuate the area, so suddenly it doesn't count if the people don't heed the warning.

As I stated somewhere else in this thread, a warning does not matter if it does not make a difference. Clearly, you will not claim that the majority of the casualties in those two bombings were military personnel.

I could point out other bombings (such as the chemical factory bombing in 1998) where civilians were attacked without prior warning. But that doesn't matter. I am not trying to balance accounts here. I am trying to make you *think*.

Why don't you point out the Allied firebombing in Germany and Austria and the resulting civilian deaths? Or better, why don't you just fucking forget WWII? It's over and the people involved are almost all dead

I did not name the article under which this thread is living "Perl Harbor". I did not start talking about WWII. But I found that since we were talking past events anyway, the two japanese bombings would be a convenient analogy to make people *think*.

I am not saying that the actions here were justified in any way, and I can't believe you seem to think that was what I wanted to say.

You have the right to hate my country and my people, which is the only emotion I can think of for speaking out against my country in an incredible moment of tragedy (and then following up with inconsistent logic in your ridiculous reply).

Why is it that you think I hate you? This is exactly what worries me.

This was also the sentiment in the second one of Bush's addresses to the public. After world leaders had expressed their deepest sympathy for the U.S. and condemned the terrorist action, Bush replied with something that resembled a warning to countries of the world. That the U.S. would retaliate swiftly, and that the U.S. would find out who did this. That no non-U.S. country should feel safe.

This is exactly the same sentiment I feel in a lot of the posts here at /.

You are not alone - terrorism can hit any democracy in the world, and we all feel deeply with you.

And that is why I do not want you to retaliate with another terrorist action against some foreign nation, because of blood thirst and desire for vengence rather than because of solid proof.

And I have the right to think you are a prick.

Absolutely.

And I retain the right to be very very worried and hope that there are not too many of your kind in positions of authority in the U.S.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[anlprb]

The Japanese government was warned five days ( a reasonable amount of time to evacuate cities of such size ) before the bombs were dropped. Your government chose to let your people die. This was merely part of your government's complete lack of any caring for its own people. To this day, they do not admit most of what was done in WWII. It is the ostrich syndrome on a national scale. Remember, keep your people ignorant, and you can control them. Your government was the one who convinced that killing themselves for their leader, who had convinced the country he was a god, was an act of heroism. This is not a government to be trusted. One who cares so little for the individual safety of its citizens. The US does not make suicide runs full of planes with explosives part of routine training.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid that they are all of my kind, feeling very emotional right now.

What you got from me was an emotional reaction; it's a tough to hear when your citizens are mass-murdered anything that sounds like "you deserve it".

I know we're not perfect.

And I never said anything about reacting, or vengeance, or killing anyone. You have no idea what my opinions are there or how I feel.

If you take an analogy of people, if someone in your family is stabbed and killed on the bus, and some stranger starts pointing out his faults while he is still dying, you might not like it either, as true as your accusations may or may not be.

That is the case here for me.

I don't in fact want any sort of retaliation that causes death to innocent civilians. Whatever we do I hope and assume that whatever will be done will be done with a broad international consensus and obviously taking into consideration all consequences, particularly those to the common man on the ground who is just trying to survive, and long-term consequences regarding the relationship with the people of the area and other countries who may be psychologically and otherwise affected.

I apologize for calling you a prick. I'm human, and it was a human reaction.

I believe that good can come out of this. We can prove ourselves again a great nation by turning this into something good.

While I don't look at my country as being a country of reactionary, bloodthirsty cowboys, ready to throw in a few grenades and then sort out the bodies afterwards, it seems that you and many of our allies do have this impression of us to varying degrees. That indicates a problem with our foreign policy.

Obviously many of the things my government has done have made people angry around the world. The way or the degree to which my government has pursued American and its allies' interests has not reflected the common American's wish to be just another stable western country, a tolerant country, a friendly nation made up of a friendly people, who care about their allies and people less fortunate around the world. I *promise* you that this is what the average American wants. No reasonable person could disagree in my opinion. The fact that this, in large part, is not what many people in the world think of when they think of my country indicates a terrible disalignment between the actions of my government on the world stage and what the people would like it to be.

That and the fact that my government is young and relatively inexperienced compared to many other countries (Russia, China, UK, and yours), and that it is part of the American character to act, to be the hero, to save the day, etc. An even slightly cynical person will reject this, but it's true. It doesn't mean that it's right. It is a mark of our immaturity as a country if we act without properly thinking through the consequences; the preceding is no excuse. It's obvious, although difficult to admit through the pain of mass-murder of my countrymen, that we are being taught a difficult lesson in unintended consequences of our foreign policy in the middle east.

Obviously whatever lessons we take from that we clearly need to apply on the rest of our foreign policy (i.e. not just the middle east).

As I love my country, and I have long-term faith in my leaders, I believe that we will learn the right lessons.

For the record, I don't hate you. I also don't hate Germans or Austrians; I lived in Vienna for years. I love Europeans, I live in Europe actually. I'm not a hateful person, even though as you can see I am an emotional person.

I'm not trying to make you like me, which may be impossible, but rather I felt I owed you an apology and want to explain my point of view and hopefully explain a point of view of my country and it's actions that you may not have seen.

David Nichols
Sopron, Hungary

Madness

[Jeff Bell]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world.

And if you upstairs neighbors happen to be the subject of one of those rumors, too bad. You'll just be another drug^H^H^H^H... er I mean terrorist related related death.

Re:Madness

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's called collateral damage. Even if you're "innocent" you keep a dipshit as a neighbor and do nothing about it. So which is the worst evil? The Dipshit, or the Dipshit's friend? Blow them both of the face of the earth and let God sort it out.

Re:Madness

[Have Blue]

That's no worse a fate than that suffered by thousands of people dying in the rubble of the World Trade Center as we speak.

A tragic day indeed

[1000101b]

With all of the money spent on highly available servers and bandwith by all of those major corporations. The only site that we shouldn't have access to is http://www.wtc-top.com/! Thank you Slashdot... you truly have the "Stuff that matters."

Re:A tragic day indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this link... the top of the WTC??? When I click on that link, I get a "Failed to Connect" error. If this persists, I think I'm going to contact the administrator of the remote site. I wonder... does email go to bit heaven if it's undeliverable?

Independence Day

[motox]

Don't you have anything better to write than post "independence day" like posts of the poor american shocked trying to dial your non-working cell, go out and help ! get real for once ! We live in our world of web, technology, lasers, satellites, space shields, smart bombs. These terrorists, these criminals should open our eyes, this world is still made by people and of people. I also want to note the failure of the internet as an informative media, when the mess happened i wasnt able to reach any site, slashdot included, if it wasnt for the TV the wourld would have known about this tragedy with an incredible delay.

Re:For the love of God...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what your problem is, but Jon Katz seems to have lost a friend in this tragedy. SHOW SOME RESPECT! Whatever your previous problems might be, at a time like this we need to put away past (obviously very petty in comparison) differences, and as Jon says, pray.

Retaliation

[olympus_coder]

Retaliation must be swift and inclusive. It must include EVERYONE who has in recent history targeted, threatened or aided terroist activity against the US. It must be devistating. The world knows what wse are capable of (look at many of the countries that have been fighting the "western devil." They are all condolences. They know better than to antaganize us. No matter. Affganastane must either submit to a short occumpation (for the purposes of eleminating the terrorist activities there) or face war with us. The same goes for other countries in the same position.

Our retaliation must NOT be against American citizins simply because they are preceived to be from the same ethnic group as the terrorist. That would be an injustice of equal proprtions.

I found myself wanting to break someone in half this morning. I go to a large public university with many non citizens. I was ashamed of myself for the breif laps.

Exactly

[Indomitus]

I was just telling my girlfriend this morning that if President Bush were smart (you can come to your own opinion on that), he would make a priority that after the rubble is cleared that the towers should be rebuilt with all possible speed. The first floor of each tower could be made into a memorial as to help remember those who died; including all the airplane passengers, the fire and police officers, etc. This would show that even these enormous structures can be knocked down and we will still rebuild them. Even this type of destruction won't just knock us down so we don't get up again. The restoration of the NY skyline would be the best f-you to the terrorist community that we can give.

pictures and video mirror

[-=Izzy=-]

Ive added more pictures and video here

AIR FRANCE ALGIERS-PARIS 1995?

[darked_2]

Hi, seems that nobody yet mentioned a failed attempt of very similar attack over Paris in 1995(?). S.O.B. then were planning to explode a jet over the French capital. See: http://lamylavis.0catch.com/aviation/id5.htm How comes no news agency diged it out yet?

Re:AIR FRANCE ALGIERS-PARIS 1995?

[Anonymous Coward]

that's france you are talking about not the USA. who cares a shit about france here anyway, USA is the big giant.

Gas prices in Indianapolis over the roof

[MacBrave]

Just got a report from a co-worker that gas prices in the Indianapolis area (about 50 miles south of where I work) have already shot up to $4.50 a gallon.

Let the price gouging begin!

Re:Gas prices in Indianapolis over the roof

[Anonymous Coward]

It only has to double again, and you've got the price that petrol is here in the UK all the time...

But anyway, ahh shame. I know you Americans would die before you actually had to use an environmentally responsible way of moving around your country.

Cambridge/Boston Update

[patiwat]

Cambridge/Boston Update

- Both the AA and UA planes that hit the WTC came from Boston Logan and bound for LA

- 56 and 81 passengers per plane

- AA's family response number is 1-800-245-0999, UA's number is 1-800-932-8555

- The pilot and crew of one of the planes were from the Boston area

- Both planes stayed overnight in Logan airport the night before

- Families of passengers can go to the Hyatt where an emergency center is being set up

- CTO and co-founder of Akamai on one plane

- Donate blood at Beth Israel, or 25 Stuart St, or other centers. Appointments not needed, but expect long lines. Don't hesitate to give tomorrow or later this week.

- Cellular 911 seeing major congestion problems, PLEASE DON'T USE CELLULAR 911 UNLESS ABOSOLUTELY NECCESARY

- Logan Airport was surprised about the incident - claims to have known anything only after crash

- Tall buildings evacuated, including Hancock and Prudential

- Federal employees sent home

- Most non-critical city employees sent home

- Many colleges closing

- Most schools, including after-school programs, not closed

- T rides for free, extra capacity hauled out to accomidate people going home

- Northeast Amtrack shut down, including Boston-DC

- 9th district primary elections going on as scheduled

- MIT not cancelling classes, but attendance is optional, cars not allowed to enter inside campus, vigil at 5pm in front of Student Center

- No major police presense or activities (yet)

- Otherwise a nice day, sunny and a good wind. Perfect day for sailing if I weren't feeling so bad. People crying and running around the corridors. Quiet everywhere. Please don't rush to conclusions and bomb anybody until somebody takes claim and it can be substantiated. Note that Taliban, Hamas, DFLP, Jihad, and Arafat have explicitely denied involvement.

patiwat@NOSPAM.mit.edu

Re:Cambridge/Boston Update

[kiwipeso]

Apparently, the CTO and co-founder of Akamai was on one of the planes. (seen on http://www.techtv.com)

Mod this up!

[Anti Alias Syndrome]

I wish I had some mod points left. Mod the parent up, please. The website is for family members an victims to find each other now that the communications system has collided.

original footage from NYC

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www10.camarades.com/onlinetv/
original footage

please post telephone numbers for family members

[revheck]

My brother works on the 92nd floor of tower I.
We have not heard from him since he left home
this morning at 7:30. We just hope he is walking
home.

If you know any telephone numbers for family
members (but not red cross) please post.

revheck

Shock and anger

[X-Nc]

I heard the news on the radio as I was driving to work (I work on an Army base in the DC Metro area). At first it was very surreal. But when they said that the first WTC building collapced I was in shock. Then when the second one fell I got quite angry. I know many people who work in the Pentagon and I don't know if they are ok or not.

I've been around during a number of terrorist attacks (Ramstein AFB bombing in '81, Octoberfest bomb in '80, the Beirut Embesy bombing in '82) and this is the worst one I've seen. Not just because it's on US soil. But because of the way it was done: Using civilian aircraft as weapons.

I will not start pointing fingers at anyone until there's proof that they were responsible. However, I will strongly advocate a strong and very hard retaliation. When the Embesy was bombed we (the soldiers and civilians) all knew who did it and where they were but TPTB would not let us do anything about it. Maybe if we had done something back then this wouldn't have happened today.

Its a sad day.

[rkt]

There isn't much I can say. I used to work on wall street, and the twin towers were the landmarks which I cherished... I'm glad I was not there this morning when it happened, but I'm still trying to absorb the magnatude of this attack.
Lots of inocent people died... this is not just about 4 planes going down... its about two huge towers going down with as much as 50000 people in it.
Its painfull.

news articals archive

[crazyprogrammer]

I have made an archive of news stories with pictures about the World Trade Center.

It can be found here

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[tshak]

Well, of course it was RELIGION. But some people forget that religion A != religion B. To assume that religion, in and of itself, is the root of this evil, is a sign of crass incompetance and illogic. A better stance would be to accuse "unsubstantiated religious dogma", which is what also drove the nazis, among others.

Of course, this thought keeps getting modded down as a troll by a few brainwashed sheep... but go ahead and mod me down, I've got plenty of karma to kill...

NOAA satellite images.

[hebertrich]

MOKE PLUME FROM BURNING OF WORLD TRADE CENTER

MOVIE D25401:GOES-8> Channel 1, 2, 4 09/11/2001 13:15 - 17:15 UTC (9:15 AM - 1:15 PM EDT) multispectral color composite

This GOES-8 loop shows a plume, believed to be smoke from the World Trade Center towers in New York City, blowing south from New York City.

Movie provided in standard (2177K) formats.

Standard (750X600):

{http://www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Fires/US_MidAtl /F SMusNY254_G8.avi}
http://www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Fires/US_MidAtl/ FS MusNY254_G8.avi

IMAGE D25402:GOES-8> Channel 1, 2, 4 09/11/2001 16:45 UTC (12:45 PM EDT) multispectral color composite

This GOES-8 image shows a plume, believed to be smoke from the World Trade Center towers in New York City, blowing south from New York City.

Image provided in standard formats.

Standard (750X600):

{http://www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Fires/US_MidAtl /F SMusNY254_G8.jpg}
http://www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Fires/US_MidAtl/ FS MusNY254_G8.jpg

A time for consideration?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an explicitly Amerocentric post. For those of you who are offended, please don't be; we need some introspection right now.

The time for proselytization is clearly over. As long as we hem and haw about who to blame and how to react, we will be stuck in the mire that grants us one or two of these incidences a year.

Quite right: this is without parallel for magnitude. But there are terrorist attacks on a fairly regular schedule, and not only are they not all from the same spots - they're not even all foreign (consider Oklahoma City).

The real question is what we can do to help the people who are so destitute that this seems to them to be their best option. We have the whole stereotyped list of american bastardry in resources to offer - fields that lie fallow to keep grain prices low (the government could as easily sponsor the fallow fields as remote food surplus instead), money and medicine that could help cure tons of problems abroad that aren't issues for us (yes, we help a lot, but we could help more), and so on.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the complexities of the system of support for Israel, its political depth, or any such thing. The fact remains that there are half a dozen or so countries which tout this as a major reason to hate us. It is, in my eyes at least, a reflex to hating Israel.

What we need to do is to find out how to help the rest of the world. Republicans smite social programs left and right. I contest that those are, in those immortal words, "our last, best hope for peace" (no, babylon 5 did not make that up).

I believe that my best possible contribution to such a situation would be to do all I could to encourage discussion. Our politicians are failing us daily. Iraqis die unnessecarily because of sanctions aimed at deposing Saddam.

Yes, we have a duty to those of us who're dying in our own streets. But we have equally great duty to those abroad. They are as much our bretheren as the people you've never met in Cabrini Green, Chicago, and any speculation otherwise is without merit (in my humble opinion).

I encourage anyone who has ideas which they feel might lead to the embetterment of the world as a whole, given the US' current domestic policies and a global view of waste, to reply to this. If we can start some form of genuine appeal to reason, prehaps within 5 years (when W is gone and when someone's repaired his damage) we might even start on the road to easing this problem.

If not for them, then for us. It is desperation which has led these people to desperate acts.

- Stonecypher

New infomation

[baronben]

Just heard this, there are rumors that Timthy Olson's, who is the new solictor general (argues cases in front of the supreme cour) wife was one of the planes that was hijakced. Not sure of this, just something that I heard on NBC. Moving on. Retaliations will take place. From sites like Janes and Stratfor it would seem that while the DFLP a palastian terrorst group has claimed responsobilty, this has all the calling signs of Bin Ladin. He has previosly said that felt that the WTCs were one of the largest symbles of America, and has perviously attacked them. He has the orginizatinal power to carry this out. There will most likey be either an attack soon on Bin Laden's camp in Afganistand if the contry does give us accsess, or (I'm just guessing here) a full invasion of the country if they do not. The country is close the our Japansese bases which hold 35k marines I belive. But I completly supprot and belive that there should be no attack, no movment, before we can confirm with out a doubt who did this, and we can plan a way to reduce civilan casualtys. Just because they did it to us, doesn't mean that we can do it to them I am happy that when I went to donate blood in CT I was turned away becuse of a 5 hour wait. I'll be going tomarrow. Hope all of you do as well.

Re:New infomation

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes you think that the US could invade Afghanistan when the USSR couldn't?

Re:New infomation

[Anonymous Coward]

The USSR couldn't succeed because the US backed the Afghan rebels, for one thing.

We couldn't do without their heroin... So we decided they were our friends.

Who's going to back them this time? Iraq? *laughs*

Re:New infomation

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll just send Rambo in. He can take on the whole country and win.

Re:For the love of God...

[ethereal]

Maybe it's time for another book, culled from your comments :)

But seriously, it was a pretty good piece. He mostly quit when he was ahead, but in this case he should have either ditched the technology tie-in, or else made a better connection. I don't think anybody's up to thinking about tech news too much today...

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know that it is the middle east, everything right now is speculation. It could be china, it could be an american anarchist terrorist group, it could be the Utath chapter of the transexual nazi coalition. It is okay to guess who it might be but don't start saying it is or is not untill you have the facts.

rumor

[pecka]

There is a news that Japan's Red Army claims responsibility for the attack

Sea change: smaller cities, more sprawl

[greg_barton]

To me this incident shows that there's no such thing as reliable intelligence, and even if there was it'd probably be impossible to prevent something like this from happening again.

How could this change society? The rosiest scenerio I can think of is the death of the major city. The internet now makes it possible to work, albeit in an inconvenient manner, from almost anywhere. Distributed forms of power generation (fuel cells, and related technologies) also make larger, spread out cities more possible. Smaller cities, highly spread out urban areas, will make point attacks like those today much less devastating, and thus less desirable for terroists to execute.

If there's a mass movement for people to leave cities, or radically spread them out, it's now possible to give that movement an outlet. Where there's pressure (with a corresponding outlet) there's bound to be flow, and I think people will flow out of the cities once all the implications sink in.

Re:Sea change: smaller cities, more sprawl

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh sure lets just burn up a little more of the very little environment that we've got left. I mean we really don't need all those trees and grass to survive do we, we can just make oxygen generators and feed the cattle the dead carcasses that don't meet our high meat quality standards right?

Re:Sea change: smaller cities, more sprawl

[nhavar]

Understand that now with our large cities we are at 88 people per square mile. That's 7 acres per person. Which in theory sounds fine until you attempt to understand how much biomass would need to be cleared to provide that space, housing, infrastructure, power, water, waste, etc. Then you have to take into account how much biomass is needed for food production and you will quickly see that 7 acres per person dwindle. This planet can only continue to support us if we consolidate our cities and encorporate nature into them. Archology. Sprawl is not the answer and is not rosie at all. We'd be signing our own death warrant it would just be a slower death with less fanfair.

BUY stocks, BUY goods

[profeti]

We can not let this cripple the economy. Buy stock when the market reopens, even if it is just a few shares. Don't let these filthy cowards get what they want. We are not afraid, just enraged.

The End

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe this should be a wake-up call. Maybe we should realize that the only real answer to any question of policy is PEACE.

If they won't make peace, we'll live it.

THE END IS NEAR. THROW A PARTY. MAKE IT MATTER.

Partial apology.

[JimTheta]

The above post was why one should always wait 5 minutes between composing and submitting.

I apologize partially. I saw the lame headline, and then skimmed, and only really read the last two paragraphs, which were exceedingly lame (YMMV).

The first 2/3s of the article had much substance. It is a first-person account from someone who has a unique perspective of the incident. I hope you find that your friend is okay.

I'm sorry I tore into you a minute ago. I may not always respect your journalism, but I should remember to always give it full attention when I intend to reply.

-Grant/"JimTheta"

Re:Partial apology.

[sulli]

thanks for the apology - today really isn't the day for Katz flames

Pictures of the World Trade Center

[sportal]

Here are some more World Trade Center Photos. http://www.nycwireless.net/Images/wtc2/

#1467 - 1472 were taken before the second tower collapsed.
#1473 - 1474 is the National Guard deployed on Lexington Ave.
#1775 - 1746 are people trying to get out of Manhattan waiting at a bus stop.
#1477 - 1490 is lower Manhattan at 3pm.
#1491 - 1496 is two blocks from the world trade center at 3pm.
#1497 is a fire boat on the Hudson river.
#1499 - 1503 is the world trade center an surrounding buildings
#1505 is a fire truck damaged by the collapse 2 blocks away from the WTC.
#1507 - 1510 is the WTC.
#1511 - 1512 is a neighboring building.
#1513 - 1515 is the surrounding area to the WTC.

Everyone is free to forward these pictures, and use them without permission. Mirrors are welcome. --Terry

Re:Pictures of the World Trade Center

[sportal]

Mirror available at http://www.azaleainternet.com/wtc_mirror/

Re:Pictures of the World Trade Center

[seney]

doesn't look like it's necessarily needed - but a mirror is up (just dir listing) at

longyear.nmu.edu/~cs/wtc

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance

[Anonymous Coward]

Today is truly one of the greatest tragedies in US history. Yet, if any good can come from this, then let it be this: this horrendous act MUST finally bring to the public conciousness the fact that America IS still very much vulnerable to attacks, both foreign and domestic. There are those who oppose the private ownership of firearms because they believe them to be completely unnecessary relics of a forgotten time. Tell me now, however, that we live in a country in which personal defense is unnecessary.

I wish that every citizen owned a gun, and spent every night praying that they will never be forced to use it.

-respectfully
Nathan

Re:The price of liberty is eternal vigilance

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish that every citizen owned a gun

And what a WORLD OF GOOD would it have done if every person in the twin towers would have been carrying a gun?

Keep the gun politics out of this. We don't need petty inside fighting at the time like this!

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[chetohevia]

You won't ever get rid of religion, and I don't think it would be a good thing to do so. However,
I think we'd be far better off if we were to keep civil and religious government seperate.

That is to say, have civil government exist to promote individual liberties and mediate the inevitable disputes between parties, preventing people and groups from exploiting each other. Let religious authorities tend to the spiritual, and let civil authorities tend to the civil.

That would mean a secular territory of Israel and Palestine, rather than a theocracy that makes Palestinians second-class citizens. A government that tries to keep the Catholics and the Protestants from fighting has been what kept the Troubles in N. Ireland from being as violent as they have been-- and the more secular and unbiased they become, the more respect they get from both groups of combatants.

Similarly, that would mean allowing any two people to have a civil and legal partnership distinct from a spiritual/religious marriage.

A secular government would not stop the violence, but it would prevent the creation of religious states with the resources to launch coordinated, massive violence like this.

You know, separation of church and state, morality and civility. "Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, render unto God, that which belongs to God." Etc.

Bllood of Katz

[Anonymous Coward]

At the blood bank in Paramus where I tried to give blood, there were five-hour lines, and the police turned us away

"You're here to give blood? Okay. Name please. ...Jon Katz?... Erm... sorry, we don't need any more blood."

"But...."

"Next!"

Time to party at your place..

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost every night US bombs fall over Iraq, with fatherless Iraqi children as a result.

Oh, I forgot, because of the sanctions many of the Iraqi children are dead too.

My point being that there are people with good reasons to hate the USA.. and maybe at last Americans see that there really are drawbacks of getting hated..

Re:Time to party at your place..

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Wrong.

There are drawbacks to not completely doing away with your enemy.

Not the same thing.

Re:Time to party at your place..

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I forgot, because of the sanctions many of the Iraqi children are dead too.

Naive moron - do you really believe propaganda so easily? If Iraqi children are dying so badly because of sanctions, then explain why:

(1) Saddam Hussein still manages to somehow "get by" living in an enormous mansion sleeping in a bed with posts made of solid gold? (Because he would rather let his own people starve if it makes the US look bad)

(2) Why can Iraq still afford to spend so much on their military? Surely some of those hundreds of millions *could* potentially be diverted to helping feed the starving children? (Oh wait .. then they couldn't use the starving children as poster-kids for anti-US propaganda)

Make your own conclusions, and *THINK* - don't just suck up and regurgitate what you've read somewhere. Read between the lines. And no, I'm not in the US and have never lived there.

Tom Clancy

[polytrope]

Do you mean "Debt of Honour" (I note the Brit spelling here so this could be the Brit title of the same book....) - Japanese airline pilot crashes plane into Congress at the end of the book. The terrorist house thing was in the next book (Executive Orders) and was in response to a bio-warfare attack .... Thoughts and deepest sympathy to everyone in the US, especially those waiting for news of loved ones.

Nostradamus

[SuperGordito]

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb

The Picture...

[dcntd]

I think that the real meaning of this could be represented by one picture - the tiny statue of libery in the foreground and the huge clouds scorching the sky in the foreground. Get the symbolism - how little is everything civilized in the face of horror and destruction

MOD PARENT DOWN! (was Re:Huh?)

[mvdwege]

This gets +5, and 'Insightful' to boot? If I get this in metamod, I will take away those mod points faster than you can say 'blind Katz bashing'.

Hell, Jon states at the end of his piece that he is praying for friends that may well have died and all you (general you, not just the parent) can do is kick him in the balls and make a mockery of his fear? Granted, you may not like Katz, but this is one of the lowest possible things you can do to a human being.

Moderators, give this post the -1 oblivion it deserves please, and to the parent: read for a fscking change, you missed Jon's point entirely.

Mart

Pearl Harbor Comparisons are pathetic

[Lucabrasi]

Pearl Harbor differs in so many ways from what has happened today. First of all it was a MILITARY base, quite a bit different from a metropolitian area where civilians work. Secondly, it was obvious who was responsible. There were no governments harboring known terrorists lying to the media of how terrible they feel.

This isn't the result of technology. "Technology turning planes into weapons" ?? Come on, since there have been airplanes this could have happened.

I was extremely grateful to see slashdot doing an excellent job of reporting just the facts when most other news sites were unreachable. But now above it all, I have to see the opinion of someone obviously out of touch with humanity and reality.

Maybe if I were a stockholder I could have my thoughts above the real news. Until then, I'm happy being lost in the mix.

Re:Pearl Harbor Comparisons are pathetic

[nhavar]

Well not exactly. See while we in the US do not consider this a military issue but a terrorist issue. The terrorist, whether US or abroad, see this very much as a military action against military targets. They see every victim not as innocent but as guilty as sin otherwise they would not have been in the place that they are. Additionally they look at the death of children as payment for the "sins of the father". Terrorists, military, killers, murderers, whatever must justify every action, they must seperate themselves from the task at hand. They must dehumanize the person to be killed, create the target in their mind as an object not as living, breathing, loving, - human. Do not think that someone does not consider this a military action just because we don't define it as one.

Re:Pearl Harbor Comparisons are pathetic

[Lucabrasi]

Obviously, it's a miliatry act. My point is that pearl harbor was a military base, the wtc is not.

"As ye sow, so shall ye reap"

[Anonymous Coward]

The bombing of the World Trade Center and Pentagon is already being hailed as a tragedy of major proportions, and American citizens will no doubt be expressing shock and disbelief that someone could do such a thing.

As the moralists begin to thunder against terrorism and mourn for the victims, perhaps some thoughts should be spared for some other victims--the victims of Americanism. This country was founded on the extermination and enslavement of millions, and has grown fat off the continuing exploitation and repression of the world's poor. It is not so strange that this should happen, rather that things like this do not happen more often.

There is a kind of rough justice that New York's financial district and the Pentagon should be targets, for they contribute to so much misery in this world. Wall Street, the center of global capitalism, is where traders skim the profits off the poverty of so much of the world. Rhetorical exaggeration? Ask youselves why so many countries where hunger is common grow and export cash crops in order to pay their debts to U.S. banks, and see whether the word "loanshark" comes to mind. Ask yourselves why the countries with the most debt and the most sweatshops are invariably those that adhere to the paternalistic advice of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, and are likely to have weapons and military training supplied by the Pentagon.

The Pentagon, the heavily-armed attack dog which blithely calls its civilian victims "collateral damage", has never hesitated to massacre civilian populations, usually from a distance and at little risk to its own. You cannot bomb and starve people, whether in Yugoslavia or Iraq, and expect all to be forgiven and forgotten. You cannot arm and train the death squads and dictators from Chile to Indonesia, Peru to El Salvador, Viet Nam to the Congo and expect no repercussions. Somewhere, somehow, some of the many victims of America's imperial arrogance have just found a way to fight back.

Today is September 11th, a day that will be remembered. But September 11th has a significance most Americans aren't aware of. September 11, 1973 was the day the Chilean military overthrew the democratically elected president, Salvador Allende. Thousands were killed and tortured by the military in the aftermath of the coup, and Chile lived under a brutal dictatorship for the next 16 years. Why is this relevant? Because the military coup was instigated and supported by the U.S. C.I.A, under the leadership of then-president Nixon and his henchman Kissinger. Who in America will remember for those victims of state terrorism, in which America bears at least partial responsibility?

Already the local talk radio is taking calls from people who are saying we should "wipe out" the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been robbed of most of their land, they've seen many of their homes and farms destroyed, and their children killed. All of this with the assistance of billions of U.S. dollars and military technology. No doubt many of them feel they have no future. When you help rob someone of their future, what do you expect? That they'd feel bad when their oppressors' best friend gets targetted?

For the victims of these bombings and their families, this must seem like inexplicable insanity. Yet there is a terrible logic here, the logic of the Old Testament: "As ye sow, so shall ye reap". In the calls for veangeance and soul-searching to come, perhaps some Americans will think about their country's global role and struggle for a fundamental change in direction.

This is not meant to justify or condone the terrorist attacks in New York and D.C. in any way. Rather, it is meant to question why there is so little outrage for the victims of the U.S. sanctioned terrorism that goes on every day.

by an American who may have lost a close friend in the WTC bombing

not pearl harbor

[Suppafly]

While this is a horrible act of terrorism, it is not another Pearl Harbor. I really wish people would stop saying it is. The attack of innocent women, children, and business people, is entirely different than the attack on a military base. Granted, both were unexpected, but attacks on military bases during war time are slightly less surprising that acts of terrorism involving hijacked 757's flying into the side of the World Trade Center and the Pentigon.

Nostradmus Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Those with heads covered with filthy rags
will scream in terror before they die slowly
camels will not be ridden again
in the stinking land of the animals

Nostradamus, 1658

One for the conspiracy theorists

[imipak]

If this is the equivalent of Pearl Harbour, does that mean that the President knew it was going to happen and allowed it to happen because it would serve strategic aims (ie, getting the US into WW2)?

I'm not saything that this DID happen, but I know there's a school of thought amongst some historians that it did. Anyone know the details / back it up / knock it down?

Re:One for the conspiracy theorists

[zulux]

Please, let put the whole FDR knew about Pearl Harbour theory to rest. *IF* it happened, someone in the White House would have assainated FDR right then, rather than let the United Stated be lead by a mad-man. FDR was odd, but not evil and crazy.

McVeigh II ?

[mauri]

But whom do you brave americans attack if the problem lies in your society instead of some mystical bin Laden ? And disaster is done by your fellow countrymen like Tim and Nichols ...

Re:McVeigh II ?

[Anonymous Coward]

don't worry. fbi and cia will prove that it was bin laden or some other arabic fanatics. just because they can. like skeletor.

Words of Nostradamus, 911 and the Draft

[sarcast]

A friend sent me this quote from Nostradamus: "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654

Also, today is September 11th. == 9/11 == 911

All of you over 18 yr. olds out there in the US: Remember that "selective service draft" you signed? I do now.

Dead Link

[KarmaBlackballed]

http://kinya.com/view.html

Very black day around the world.

Hope your friend is ok.

[iplayfast]

Your paragraph about getting his answering machine until 11, then it was out of service, really struck home with me. (Actually brought a tear to my eye).

I've heard that psycologists are meeting kids from school buses, because their parents won't be.

This is too sad.

The only response...

[Pichon]

I'm sure someone has posted this already, but these words have been resonating with me especially well today:

"I fear that we have a awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

- Admiral Yamamoto.

NOT a new perl harbor

[andrewtea]

It is not right to compair this to a pearl harbor. That was an act of war on a millitary target. This was a terrorist attact on mostly civilian targets involving mostly civilian casualties. Based on this, there should be no compairison.

Sons of america...

[Ghoser777]

- Sons of america, I am Collen Powel

= Collen Powel is 7 feet tall

- Yes I've heard, kills men by the hundreds and if he were here, he'd consume the terrorists with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his ass(ARSE)

- I am Collen Powel, and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men and free men you are - What will you do with that freedom? will you fight?

= Fight against that! No, we will run, and we will live

- Aye, fight and you may die run and you'll live at least a while, and dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance JUST ONE CHANCE to come back here and tell our enemies that you can take our lives, but you can never take our FREEDOM!!!!

F-bacher

Thank you Jon

[baptiste]

For an excellent and moving piece - you may catch flak for your writings from all sorts of people, even myself aat times. But you and the rest of the /. team have done a great job today in filling a void left when the news sites crumbled.

As a fellow American - I thank you.

Flight Simulator as Terrorist Training Device

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 contains all the airports and buildings that were targeted, as well as realistic models available for training purposes of 757's and 767's.

You could have trained for todays attack for the past year using off the shelf software.

Of course I am not blaming "video games" for this attack, just that training technology is available for just a few bucks.

Re:Flight Simulator as Terrorist Training Device

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you can.

Sheesh.

You can poke your neighbor's eye out with your thumb, too.

Should we bind your hand so you can't do so?

Re:maybe..

[PHAEDRU5]

I read the whole article. Katz's concern about loss of life comes after other issues.

My first reaction was shock and horror over the loss of life. I honestly couldn't believe what I was seeing. I didn't pause to think about convergence of technology, politics, and whatever the hell else struck Katz. If I ever *do* have a Katz reaction, then I'll have to consider that I've left the human race.

Oh, and BTW, this is not intended as flamebait.

I wonder...

[Brian Kendig]

I wonder whether Jay Leno will leave the Twin Towers on the skyline backdrop to his set.

I hope so. I hope he makes a statement about how he's leaving them there because the real things will be rebuilt someday soon.

In the face of this tragedy, I'm glad to see world leaders speaking out in support of the United States. Perhaps this will end up being a sobering moment across the globe, and perhaps it'll end up bringing people together more than driving them apart.

Re:I wonder...

[gorgon]

I wonder whether Jay Leno will leave the Twin Towers on the skyline backdrop to his set.

I hate to be pendantic, but you must mean Conan O'Brien or David Letterman. Leno's show tapes in California. I believe Letterman is off this week, so we'll have to wait to see his reaction.

Respond carefully

[evenprime]

"A government should not mobilize an army out of anger, military leaders should not provoke war out of wrath. Act when it is beneficial, desist if it is not....a nation destroyed cannot be restored to existence, and the dead cannot be restored to life. Therefore an enlightened government is careful about this, a good military leadership is alert to this. This is the way to secure a nation and keep the armed forces whole." -- Sun Tzu, Art of War 12:10

If dubya believes that a strike back is strategically/tactically beneficial to the USA, he should order the armed forces to kill our enemies. If the response is simply an act of retaliation fueled by anger, though, he really ought to think about if this helps or not...

Re:Respond carefully

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said. If you're the praying type (I am,) pray that Dubya is given Wisdom well beyond the capacity that he has exhibited thus far. Every American's life (and needless to say, the lives of many, many, many non-Americans,) depends on the president acting wisely right now.

Media brownout

[Yarn]

Isolating the dazed/confused side of me, I am suprised at the poor quality of the media coverage. It seems that they decided to rerun the same poor quality clip repeatedly, on all channels. It just left me feeling numb. Only now are they properly speculating on the who/how/where/when details.

Added to this is the way that almost every international news website crumpled and died for about 5 hours after the events.

One price of Empire is terrorism

[rlglende]

We have violated our own Constitution, and pissed off a substantial part of the world doing it.

We are a technological civilization -- balanced on a needle tip. Kicking the needle over is easy.

This was the first semi-technical terrorism, and obviously the most effective. Bombs can be built by history and polysci majors. Planes can be flown by anyone who buys Microsoft Flight Simulator and works at it for a while.

God help us if they ever enlist engineers and physicists.

The only possible effective response is to go back to the original view of our government: we defend our shores, we don't screw around with the rest of the world. Abrogate all of our defense treaties, withdraw from the UN, bring the troops home, focus on putting our gov back inside the Constitution.

Otherwise, we will lose our civil rights and add to our terrorism-from-without with terrorism-from-within.

Lew

The scary part...

[HobophobE]

The USA recently announced (IIRC) that they are not yet prepared to deal with bioterrorism. Who's to say that there was no bioterrorism today? Who's to say that the planes that were hijacked didn't have terrorists carrying biological warfare devices, meant to disperse large amounts of a toxin or other type of disease? And then you send people in to give blood, etc...and the bug continues to spread, like a computer virus, all over the place. I say quarantine all the disaster areas, immediately. That's the only smart, reasonable option in a situation of this magnitude.

HobophobE

Re:The scary part...

[baronben]

I considerd that there might be bio wepons on board, but the virises and other germs would be denatured by the intense heat of the fire, so while it is a posobilty, I don't think it is very likely

The first sensible thing Katz has said in months

[mblase]

Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people.

Too bad it wasn't enough to redeem his idiot angle. For the first time, I'm blocking Katz from my front page. He's not funny anymore.

WTF does technology have to do with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information.

Technology and information likely had nothing to do with this, unless the terrorists were crazed luddites or something. Stop trying to troll with stories Jon. Not everything is related to technology.

I don't know about you, but for me it's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the tens of thousands of innocent lives needlessly lost. Although I don't usually think about capitalizing on disasters, either.

Really Jon

[Jaysyn]

You should of waited a few day to write anything, you're coming off as a media vulture...oh, wait

Jaysyn

Shame

[HBK-4G]

Why does it not surprise me that JonKatz cannot act like a normal human being during a catastrophic event such as the WTC/Pentagon attacks.

You feel the need to analyze these events in terms of politics, of technology. Don't analyze. Don't act like a reporter. But you go ahead and do it anyway. You disgust me, and I'm sure many others.

If you had simply said, "A terrible tragedy has happened - give blood, pray, or have a moment of silence for the dead and injured." But, in your zeal as a reporter, you analyze. Shame on you.

The Latest Tragedy

[Anonymous Coward]

Being a Canadian, I want to tell everybody in the U.S. that is affected by this that our hearts are going out to you, and your families.
I hope justice is brought to those responsible, and to those involved.
I know how some must feel, because I have a family member, who, if she wasn't late for work, would have been hurt, or even worse.
I hope your friend is ok Jon.

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[Chronoforge]

I could mod you down, but I'd rather respond to you.

Like everything else, religion can be used for both good and evil. Because religion can make men better, it can also make them far worse.

Those who are devoutly religious, honestly worshipping their God, are not the problem. Those who pervert their "religion," attacking innocents to get gain, are the problem.

To quote Enigma (Silent Warrior)
There's no God who ever tried
To change the world in this way.
For all the ones who abuse His name,
there'll be no chance to escape
On Judgement Day.

David Richardson

Video Mirror

[Anonymous Coward]

A video archive of today's events is up at http://techienews.utropicmedia.com/files/9_11_2001 -WTC/

The hand of God

[J. T. MacLeod]

My first thought in seeing this article was as follows:
"Oh, no. This is too serious for Jon Katz to be writing on." (Although I respect Mr. Katz's work, suffice to say I'm not a fan)

I then had a change of mind. Although my primary income is from other endeavors, I am also, like Mr. Katz, a journalist.

I'm sure that many journalists descended onto the issue as vultures, using the tragedy of the dead for their own gain (or ego), but I'm relatively sure that this is not Mr. Katz's intent.

After the majority of my shock had left, the first thing that came to my mind was to write on the issue. My own writing won't be read by anyone--I felt it to be too pessimistic. However, my motivation is, I believe, the same that Mr. Katz had in writing this article: He felt, in his heart, the call to write, to communicate.

Whether or not one is a fan, Mr. Katz writes from his heart, and for that he has my respect. I would ask that anyone at least consider this before judging him. As he said, he wanted to post his thoughts. He did so, an I commend him for it.

As well, Mr. Katz has shown us one of the greater, if little discussed points of this incident:
"Standing over the harbor, I did something I haven't done in 20 years. I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed. "

That is truly the point. Folks, a lot of us have known this was coming for a long time. Pick up your Bible; it's all in there. There have been plenty of people who were sure that they were in the end times, and we continue to be. They weren't wrong then, we're just more right now.

Whether or not you believe in God, He's working in this. God did not cause this incident. God did, however, tell us that this was coming. He will also use this as a sign to millions. Not because those people need some belief to turn to, but because their hearts are stricken not only with grief, but with realization.

May God bless all of you.

J. T. MacLeod
jtmacleod@hotmail.com

"If I've managed to tick off the Southern Baptist convention, the Vatican, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, then my work here is done."

Retaliation - How We Can Fight Back

[gotroot801]

Sent by a co-worker to our entire campus this afternoon:

---
In the immediate wake of this monstrous tragedy, one thing that strikes me is the resilience of New Yorkers. Reports of people aiding victims at ground zero, buying cases of water for victims, and of many hour waits to donate at local blood centers. I shudder to think of how this tragedy may have affected members of our small community, I saw a few vicitms already on campus today, but I also saw a busload of students leaving to brave the congested evacuation routes of Long Island to give blood.

They are celebrating our tragedy in areas of the world that would seek to do us harm. Already I hear cries that this is war, we should turn [certain countries] into parking lot, they kill our kids, we should level their whole civilizations.

It is obvious to state the following: The perpetrators of this heinous attack would want exactly that. For us to turn against one another and fuel the fires of prejudice and hate. For us to weaken the bonds of strength that is the diversity of us. They have succeded in attacking our land, our people, and our psyche.

They can bomb America today, but we will be open for business tomorrow.

Now is the time we reach out to help each other thru the post-traumatic period of time. It is important that everyone talk to each other to overcome the shock of this tragedy. Hopefully, people with information to catch these terrorists will not be afraid to come forth, and the forces who have sworn to give their lives for this country can and will bring them to justice.

But I hope that people will continue to show the passion and courage to continue to reach out and help our fellow Americans in a time when we need it the most. The Red Cross had enough blood in reserve for today, but in the coming days they will need more.

We can retaliate by showing the engineers of this tragedy that the greatest nation on earth will be back to work and school tommorow, shaken but not undaunted. We can show them that they will not change our way of life, our love of freedom, nor turn us against each other. The history of this nation has shown that a multicultural nation can and will overcome the most insurmountable obstacles. I think history will show future generations that the aftermath of this tragedy displayed Americans in their finest hour. I hope some of you out there feel the same way I do.

--Protik Majumdar

life goes on

[jafac]

A tragic bombing and murder of innocent people.
Spam still arriving in my inbox.
I'm at work, doing my thing, as are all the rest here in my office.
Babies being born.
John Katz still rambling like a madman to his pet cockroaches in a dark cell of a hospital for the criminally insane.

What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[nweaver]

In the early aftermath of the heinous attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, there is much speculation that this attack had to be the work of a significant, organized organization. Although we desire to believe that this attack required a large group, one that we could potentially retaliate against, an attack of this magnitude requires only a few individuals and a very small amount of preparation.

It only takes a couple of armed individuals to commandeer a plane in the air once they get a weapon aboard, while a few minutes thought outside an airport checkpoint will reveal a half dozen methods a terrorist could use. Once the terrorists gain control over the plane, it is again straightforward for the terrorists to conduct a controlled crash: readily available flight simulation programs are very powerful, capable of providing the necessary training for a targeted crash.

Thus, a dozen reasonably intelligent zealots, willing to die for their cause, could easily prepare, train, plan, and execute an attack on this scale in under a week. What will we do if it turns out that it was a small group? What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?

Re:What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[Anonymous Coward]

"What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?"

Hopefully you will get on with your lives after this tragedy, and try to prevent anything like this from happening again.

Does there always need to be somebody to blame ?

Re:What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are such obvious questions.

Even if it was a tiny band of zealots, they had something they were fighting for. They had an ideology that fostered them, trained them, etc.

We can mash that into a pulp.

When terrorists take over a plane or capture hostages, the only proper solution it to obliterate them entirely. If that means taking the hostages with them, it can be said that it was the terrorists who held on, and were the ones that killed the hostages.

Zero tolerance for terrorists. Kill the fuckers.

It will work well.

Re:What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[mrmud]

Sorry, not to sure where you get the idea that this was done by a bunch of hill billy terroist. This was a very well planned attack, and it certainly wasn't "easily prepared".

Example:

how do you get the weapons on board a plan? (step out of the hollywood arena were such things are common place in movies, mind you)

How do you pilot a plane? Unless you think the autolpilot has a "crash into Trade center" option.

How do you get at least two other planes to hit targets at around the same time?

There's also many rumors that they managed to disable the black box.

This was not easy, and it certainly took longer then a week to plan.

Re:What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[nweaver]

How do you get weapons on board?

• Ceramic Bladed Knives
• Glass knives
• Razor blades & plastic handles
• Fashion cutting instruments out of
• Bullets hidden in sealed metal object (belt buckels etc) and plastic derringers.

How do you pilot a plane?

Microsoft Flight Simulator and 767 Pilot in Command, a near commercial grade, highly detailed flight simulator for a 767. (757 uses the same cockpit).

How do you coordinate?

Hank, bob, you take this plane, crash it into tower one. I'll take that plane, crash it into tower two. The timing doesn't have to be very precise.

Fortuntaly, however, it looks like a larger, more organized group.

Pearl Harbor my ass.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pearl Harbor was a military target. It was attacked by a military power, that attempted to warn their enemy of the impending attack. The casualties were great in part due to the general disbelief and incompetence of the american troops who were used to peaceful conditions.

What we have here is a bunch of cowards who destroyed thousands of innocent lives in a futile attempt. At least the Japanese wanted something. The resources, the territory. All these people want is to kill as many people as they can for the sake of some demented purpose that no one seems to know.

I grieve deeply for the dead, but let's not compare this atrocious slaughter to warfare.

--John

Is this grave robbing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to decide if Katz is exploiting the situation...I'm having a damn hard time deciding, but leaning towards yes.

third build collapsed

[EpsCylonB]

third build collapsed

this will make rescuing people harder.

mod parent up, not down

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Unfortunately I burned my latest round of mod points yesterday, on discussions much less interesting than this one.

Yes, this was almost certainly a religiously inspired attack. Either it was Islamic fundamentalists, or our own home-grown Christian fundamentalists a la Timothy McVeigh. I'm sorry, but I don't see any other possibilities. Anyone who mods the parent comment (or this one) down because they can't stand to face this fact is a coward.

Why anyone would pray for comfort to a God who would allow something like this to happen is beyond me.

Re:mod parent up, not down

[zulux]

Why anyone would pray for comfort to a God who would allow something like this to happen is beyond me.

I was going to mod you down to flaimbait, but I think you were just lashing out in anger, and I don't blame you. I'm agnostic, and can understand your sentiments, but please don't confront people, on a day like today, with your logic. Let them pray, and weep in peace.

Re:mod parent up, not down

[Anonymous Coward]

I pray to a God that allows free will, for better or worse. The beauty of the world that God created is that every individual has the ability to chose their views and opinions. Yes, God allows something like this to happen, because the world would not be a true test of our integrity and other way. The comfort that is provided by prayers to God is that we know those that are innocent yet die by such a tragedy are in heaven.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

[Chris Y Taylor]

"As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world."

Yes, our retaliation must be decisive (and complete) to make sure that this sort of thing does not become more common. But it doesn't have to be swift. We must make sure that we completely roll up whatever organization is responsible and anyone who was an accomplis. It is far more important to get this right and do it completely than it is to be quick and do a half@$$ed job that doesn't get all the terrorists or gets the wrong people. No one must doubt that we got the right people and that we got them all. That will take time, but as the saying goes, "revenge is a dish best served cold." This is as true in the world of intel/counterintel as it is in fiction. But the time it takes should be because of we are methodical, not because we fail to commit the proper resources to do the job.

There are more World Trade Centers

[alanjstr]

A quick Google search turns up quite a few. There was a bomb threat this morning at the one in Baltimore, Maryland. There was a bomb threat at the state capital, in Maryland. There was a bomb threat at my local mall this afternoon, shutting it down. Why are people wasting time on tragic days like this?

The true cause

[Spankophile]

We had better re-evaluate our position on letting Middle-Eastern children play games such as Microsoft Flight Simulator, or SimCity, which may promote violent tendencies toward crashing airplanes.

Re:The true cause

[iMMo]

How did this possibly get moderated up? Maybe it's just me, but I don't think enough time has passed where this event could be the source of any joke. Have some respect for the people who lost their lives today.

Re:The true cause

[Anonymous Coward]

but the John Hancock building is safe.

WTF?

[Hard_Code]

"It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information."

What the hell does this have to do with "technology, politics, and information"? It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific deaths of thousands of people. Jesus, not everything revolves around the navel-gazing of us geeks.

"Technology turns planes into weapons."

Planes don't kill people, terrorists kill people. Every day we putting our trust in hundreds of strangers. I trust the bus driver doesn't drive off a cliff. I trust a hacker doesn't hack into my machine. I the mailman will deliver my mail. This is not a technological problem. It is a sociological problem. In the airplane industry, we as consumers TRUST each other enough so that we do not have to be tied in upright Hannibal-Lector restraining devices to protect each other. We TRUST each other enough not to have to undergo invasive personal searches, and have a mean security guard rip Timmy's stuffed bear to shreds because there might be a bomb in it.

"It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories."

And the irony of it all is that this very same technology is *distancing* us from real events, causing us to go through various levels of "proxies" for the real experience. Hardly anybody really experiences anything any more in this society of the spectacle. That's how Americans can sit at home and remain comfortable when Ted Kopple tells us, that oh, by the way we forgot to tell you, a gruesome civil war in Sudan has caused
2 million deaths.

"Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people."

Not if technology itself is based on simple human trust...which it invariably is. This is the same cause for all those stupid Word macro worms, except with much more dire results. We have to realize we *cannot* stop this type of exploitation based on trust (well, short of distrusting everybody which is impractical), but instead have to foster an environment in which people don't *want* to do these things (*cough* hacker ethic *cough*).

Re:WTF?

[Flavius Stilicho]

Amen.

One more

[plaa]

I don't know whether this has been posted before (I haven't seen it here), but http://www.worldtradecenter.com/ is interesting -- somebody had a good idea there.

(For the record, it redirects to http://www.redcross.org/)

Bigger Brains?

[Camel Pilot]

Not long ago there was a slashdot discussion on Hawkin' call for GE of the human brain to increase it potential. In view of such a distaster and careless murderous act such as is unfolding now, I think we need to GE for a gentler brain. The same brain that was honed by ice and predator is now the same brain that threatens us all.

Re:Bigger Brains?

[Birger Johansson]

-This is actually possible, once we have the genomes for *other* primates.

Carl Sagan mentioned that other primates have drastically different behaviour, the colobus monkeys are quite meek, while baboons are more violent and aggressive (see "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors", Sagan & Margulis).

With "comparative genomics", we will not only know which genes that code for various aspects of intelligence, but for behaviour as well, what we may call "human nature" (or in case of other primates, [species name] nature).

The writer Stanislaw Lem (who suggested virtual reality and nanotechnology as early as 1965) coined the expression "Betrization" for a hypothetical process to make human beings less capable of physical aggression.

There is in theory no obstacle for germ-line gene therapy to achieve this goal, but since there must be several thousand genes involved in the development and operation of the brain, some of which have multiple functions, it will probably take another century before the functions of those genes are mapped.

Yours
Birger Johansson

This won't stop at the US

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to point out something that others may not realise.
In the eyes of the Middle Eastern terorists, Canada, the USA, the UK, Israel, Australia & New Zealand are all one unified political & cultural bloc.
Anti-American terrorism won't stop at the borders of the USA, because these people believe all English-speaking peoples to be "American infidels".
This attack could just have easily have been on London, Montreal or Sydney.

Lets hope they'll be caught.

Re:This won't stop at the US

[fyren]

as you might already know, there were also serveral threats on tergets in western europe.. police tells people to stay away from the high rise buildings of the german "commerz bank" and "deutsche bank" in frankfurt and govt. buildings have already been closed off (any building belonging american or jewish organizations, too)

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[nathanm]

/. keeps forgetting RELIGION's ROLE in this mess. That's at the root of it all: two countries persecuting each other over a holyland, and we're in the middle of it.

Repeat: this would not have happened if two countries didn't think a small city was the holyland of their respective gods.

This is probably not about Palestine, but about the US presence in the middle east. If the Palestinians were behind this attack, the world opinion that has been recently warming to their position would be all but gone.

The sooner we wean people off of religion, the less intolerance we'll have to deal with. Needn't list all of the intolerance and racism religion has caused. And don't blame a few zealots, it's everyone.

Wanting to wean people off religion is showing your intolerance. What we need is for people to be tolerant of different religions or lack thereof. Intolerance and racism have been caused by many other things besides religion. Remember, the original title of Darwin's book was On The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. It's been used by many to justify racism.

+4 Insightful? Try -1 Uninformed / Prejudiced

[smirkleton]

We know absolutely *nothing* about who is responsible. What we do know is that in less than an hour our nation lost potentially tens of thousands of citizens. Countless more are injured. Relief organizations need blood and donations from ALL OF US. And, though it curl your toes to hear, the widows, orphans and bereaved need and deserve OUR PRAYERS.

In the midst of these certainties, you would prefer we not be distracted by the known. You would have us focus on blame-appropriation and judgment- lets blame the Jews and Muslims in the middle east for their troublesome ideas about God and religion. That is what is important right now.

What's next, Sebastopol? How about we all strike back against these evil forces by saying racist things to the Middle Eastern guy who runs the cash register at the nearby 7-11? He probably has relatives that have relatives that have relatives that came from the hotbed of intolerance.

If you believed in tolerance, you'd be tolerant of those you believe are intolerant. But you don't. You just a confused, ignorant bigot. And that you're moderated up to +4 Insight should be an embarrassment to anyone who confesses any sort of loyalty to Slashdot.

Oh good. You've been moderated down to 1 even as I authored this. Two more points outta do it.

Re:+4 Insightful? Try -1 Uninformed / Prejudiced

[Sebastopol]

Hmmm... isn't modding me down a sign of intolerance? You can't tolerate an alternative viewpoint, so you push it down under the radar until no one can see it?

Intolerance of the intolerant is a rather difficult concept to grasp. Is it a contradiction, or is it a statment about tolerance, thus not a paradox? It is anticlericalism.

You call me a bigot, but you ask people to pray? What do non-christians and atheists and agnostics think when their leader (chosen or not), asks them to "Pray?" That's a huge slap in the face to us as a result of YOUR VERY INTOLERANCE and insensitivity to alternate believe systems. And it's also quite difficult to those of us who don't believe in god to grasp: watching large masses of people shouting at the sky for comfort. it's really hard to empathize with that when your a nonbeliever, and asking me to embrace it is the very bigotry behind most (not all) religious dogmas. (thanks to a previous poster for pointing that out.)

I'm facing two types of prejudice on /. right now: 1) because I'm making assumptions about the perpetrators, which is absolultely a justified reason to slam me, and 2) because I'm illustrating the contradictions of religion. The latter is the intolerance you accuse me of.

Predicted by Seer

[Anonymous Coward]

Prediction:

Those with heads covered with filthy rags
will scream in terror before they die slowly
camels will not be ridden again
in the stinking land of the animals

Nostradamus, 1658

Pearl Harbour

[halftrack]

What was the final result of Pearl Harbour? Can you recall it?

spilled blood == to much blood spilled
spilled blood + spilled blood == way too much blood spilled

How to kill your worst enemy, in 1 easy step.

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so you're an Israeli official. You've got these bastard half-human palestinians who just won't die on your border. You used to be in like this with the U.S., but since people are starting to realize that your racial prejudices are more than just backlash due to discrimination, they're slowly drifting away. You'd use weapons of mass destruction on the heathens in a second, except you can't afford them. So, how do you do it?

Well, you could attack a country that's not particularly friendly towards palestine, blame it on them, and watch the fireworks. Maybe even a really big country that has their own weapons of mass destruction. Again, though, you don't have much money. What you do have is access to a lot of information that most terrorists don't. So you round up a dozen fanatics. And some 747 pilot's manuals...

Re:How to kill your worst enemy, in 1 easy step.

[Anonymous Coward]

I never thought about it that way.. but, why would Jews kill their own?

Kirby Can Say Smart Things...

[svwolfpack]

My friend kirby said it the best:

'People asked me today KIRBY why arent you more alarmed by this situation and ITS NOT because i have no compassion and because i dont feel for those who have lost loved ones today I do, and my heart goes out to them. What worries me most is how i can sit with a bunch of my friends and watch them turn a national tragedy into something about themselves how they think that the world and its disasters actually revolve around them and it scares me that from this event, in about 6 months there will be movies made, books written, hosts on Oprah, and forwards that are titled "tell them how you feel before its too late" All about the publicity and making money. We REACT in the strangest manner.'

Are all of you posters BLIND??

[greenrd]

The parent post is a TROLL!!! Can't you see?

All of you who have replied to MxTxL - he was TROLLING. He was obviously being SARCASTIC. He was trying to make a point by taking the hawkish line to its obvious ridiculous conclusions, such as:

We may have to submit to cavity searches before too long.

Come on. This was a throwaway line (as if the DEA analogy didn't peg your bullshit meter already!)

And this:

Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?

Everyone with a clue knows that an encryption export ban is FUCKING 100% USELESS!!

It was actually quite a high quality troll (and it fooled quite a few people) - if you read it with that in mind. :-)

Re:Are all of you posters BLIND??

[Anonymous Coward]

His post was stupid. Not sarcastic.

When you don't personally know the poster, it can be really hard to tell though..

Re:Are all of you posters BLIND??

[Spike_/\_]

We don't care if it's a troll, we just need a thread to talk in.

Re:Roe vs. Wade

[PixelJuice]

Just great. A nutcase/troll using one of the biggest disasters in history to promote his own bigotry.

Little boy, if you're the good Christian you claim then you should be FUCKING busy right now praying for a couple of thousand souls instead of trolling here.

Cowardly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardly cowardly. How many of you would give your life for something that you imminently believe in, however strange your beliefs might be to outsiders? Would you give your life, say, for the free software movement, if you could totally and completely annihilate, for example, Microsoft?

Re:Cowardly?

[Azghoul]

You, sir, are an asshole.

I suspect you'll look back and read your little tripe in a few years (say, after you hit age 20) and hang your head in shame.

Re:Cowardly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? He's right, these people flew suicide missions for a cause they believe in. Any number of insults might be appropriate, but to accuse them of cowardice is ridiculous.

Re:Cowardly?

[Anonymous Coward]

they're Anonymous Cowards you dork

Re:Cowardly?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are anonymous because it's functional - they can do far more damage this way.

Re:Cowardly?

[datarat]

I'm pretty sure there was a flight crew over Pennsylvania that felt strongly enough not to allow themselves to be used as a weapon.

Don't cheapen the sacrifice. There are a lot of heroes out there.

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[Coocha]

"The sooner we wean people off of religion, the less intolerance we'll have to deal with."

But isn't that a form of intolerance itself? People adhere to religious beliefs in order to satisfy the needs of their soul, which neither science nor technology can claim to do.

If today's tragedy is the responsibility of a religious group, it is because they are a group of seriously screwed-up individuals. Tibet has been occupied by China for years, but you don't see Tibetan Buddhist monks committing terrorist acts.

To misquote the NRA, religions don't kill people... people kill people.

The problem is religious hypocracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Religion is not the problem. The followers are the problem.

Look for a moment at the 3 major religions of the world. They are all monotheistic. They are all from the same reigon. If you read their writings, you'll note that they all teach the same ideals. One even used to be a sect of another. Basically, these people are fighting over what to call their God.

In addition, these religions preach being tolerant and peaceful. Do you see that being implemented? No. These people aren't very faithful followers; they are hypocrites. Religion is their excuse.

If the fighters of so-called "religious" battles in the Middle East practiced what they preached, there would be an understanding, and peace. But they're not following the religion. They're following the image of the religion, and what to call your God. "You pray to Jehova or Jesus, and I say Allah, so you die now!" Little do these people stop to think of how all 3 religions are worshiping the very same ideals.

Just what we need...

[cluening]

Nothing like Sensationalist JonKatz to put things into perspective...

Sure, I plan to lose karma on this post. But it really bugs me when people use tradegies to write something that makes them sound compassionate to the rest of the world. It is like running out and bragging about yourself with a loudspeaker, and I think it shows a lack of good character...

Doing what I can to help

[martyb]

First off, my heartfelt condolences to those who have lost family, friends, and loved ones in this tragedy.

I met with a number of friends at lunch. Some had loved ones who they had been unable to reach to see if they were okay.
I felt powerless over what had happened, and indeed there is nothing anyone can do to change what has already happened. But, I did what I could, today. I offered a shoulder to cry on. I encouraged them to have hope, to know that not knowing does not mean the worst. That there is already a tremendous pulling together of support. Calls for blood donations, people reaching out to friends they hadn't talked with for a long while, and countless other acts across the country and the world where people offer support to one another.

This tragedy can become a rallying point, an opportunity to show the world what we are made of here in the US of A. The Oklahoma bombing, the flooding of the Mississippi River, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. We are a people that has a long history of reaching out to help.

A proverb I've liked: "If I cannot do great things, then I will do small things in great ways." (Don't know who wrote it, sorry.) Each person who lends a hand, a shoulder, a caring heart does something tangible. And all of those seemingly small acts, when taken together, can show the world, and ourselves, that we are greater, MUCH greater, than these attacks.

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[Anonymous Coward]

Save the superstitious bullshit for someone who cares. There is no "god", no "judgement day", no after life, nothing. Get over it.

Next step for US government

[Anonymous Coward]

Without single doubt, Bush will pass laws that will guarantee Sklyarov will NEVER be released, and outlaw opensource programming completely, and mandate Big Brother access control, now that the country is set to fight terrorism.

Re:Next step for US government

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll? Come on, this is a very real possibility! After all, the government did make all these privacy invasion laws in the name of protecting citizens from terrorists and 'illegal activities', even before all these plane crashes. What make you Slashdot editors think the government and corporate lobby groups won't take those steps further just because you mark it down or even censoring it?!

By marking it down as troll, that proves Slashdot editors' souls are being sold to their corporate masters.

More ways to call when circuits are busy

[KarmaBlackballed]

For USA callers: If you try calling long distance and get "all circuits are busy", you can try a different long distance company no matter who you use normally. Type the following numbers to get the listed provider:
10333 - Sprint
10222 - MCI
10288 - ATT

Sometimes you can get through this way. Good luck.

"Our new pearl harbor" ??

[IdIoTt]

Why must we turn this into a "coming of age" Hallmark special for this generation?
I understand the idea of "day of infamy" etc, but can we not take this story for itself? Let us
mourn the tragedy that has occured instead of waxing eloquent about anything and everything, regardless of whether or not it's relevant. It seems Katz obsession with technology does not let him see the forest for the trees. Technology is NOT the story here, it is the loss of life. When I saw the buildings collapse, I did NOT think "My God, what a horrible use of technology that was" but rather "May God have mercy on us all."
This is not a time to troll a developing story with flowery imagery and self victimization. It is a time to help support our fellow Americans and give each other strength. My prayers go out to all of those involved, our leaders currently making extremely difficult decisions, our country, and our world.

God be with us.

We are with you.

[Anonymous Coward]

i grieve with you.
my country does.
we hope, tomorrow,
all that is undone
and we wake up from
a sad and infuriating
dream.

for those who are lost,
we have got to remeber,
what good times we shared
and how sweet their smiles were,
how simpathetic they acted,
how innocent they were,
how they would not like us to mourn them.

we have to make a huge step
from a sunny world of yesterday
through today's rain.
for we are the ones who survive
and for we are the ones
who are in charge of the memories

america.
you are not alone.
you have been my second home once.
i will not forget what you
have done for me.

for ever a friend of

NEW YORK CITY

and

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

i believe in you.

Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[disc-chord]

The idea of no retalitation and just allowing for peace is definetly the utopian solution.

Unfortuantly the people that conduct themselves in this manner live in a distopia, often impoverished and spiteful.

You cannot reason with people on civilized and rationalized terms, when they themselves are foriegn to these concepts.

They understand the language of violence, and under these terms have set the pace. If we do not respond in kind we risk further attacks.

It is a vicious cycle, and I truly wish this was not the case, but this is the reality. Violence will rule this world for the remainder of your lifetime... get used to it.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[Stephen Samuel]

The idea of no retalitation and just allowing for peace is definetly the utopian solution.

I'm not going to call for no retaliation. I am, however going to call for no random retaliation. Retaliation against civilian targets only vaguely associated with (the) terrorists will simply create more people, more desparate and more angry. It plays into the hands of the terrorist by creating even more people who are angry and/or desperate enough to work on suicide or other terrorist attacks.

Consider, for a moment, the kind of desperation it would take for someone to be a suicide attacker. Even in extreme situations, it is the rare person who would do something like this. It requires the willful creation of a desperate situation within a large population over a period of time.

Someone touched on this in an earlier post. What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists.

Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only. We are now experiencing, firsthand, the result of anger being directed against innocent civilian targets. If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.

Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[david43]

Normally, I am one for respecting others religions, but I heard this retaliation mentioned,
and thought that it might work.
If this turns out to be the work of Muslim terrorists (it may not be, and we all need to keep that in mind.):
Take and occupy Mecca. Give all the Muslim countries 48 hours to turn over the terrorists; if they don't, remove every stone, bit of dirt, etc. from Mecca, cover the ground with pork products, ship the buildings to the US and rebuild as a pork processing plant.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[twilightzero]

If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.

What was the original quote? Something like "When you adopt the dishonorable tactics of your enemy, you become one with them." You may differ as to motivation and ideals, but the result remains the same. Sinking down to their level might be easy, as a downward slope always is; rising back up to resume your former place is next to impossible.

Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.

Well put. To say "stop violence against all civilians" may be too hasty. An army wages war against an opposing army. However, all too often there is a grey line between soldier and civilian. Look to the things that went on in Vietnam. The US Army waged war against the North Vietnam army but all too often the civilians would be aiding the army, either spying or planting explosives. With this kind of activity going on, it becomes increasingly difficult to sort out the true civilians from those who are aiding or involved with the military.

Let us all pray that we are able to rise above this and show the world and those who would wish us ill that we will not be taught to fear. Reprisal, as you said, needs to be strong and swift, yet we must temper our actions with wisdom and control.

Sorry, that's all I can think of to write right now.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[Anonymous Coward]

This is bull. The Palestinians are not desparate, they are victims of a government to caught up in anti-Jew and anti-White racism that they put countless references to anti-semitism and the 'glory' of death with murdering us in their pre-school textbooks. These people are simply consumed with hate and their governments promote it through propoganda! The Palestinians hate, with no other reason than that is all they have been taught since they were born.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[rpg25]

I think your argument has the seeds of its own contradiction in it. You say "Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only." and also "What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists."

But what Israel's been doing precisely is targeted counterattacks, and targeted as well as anyone could ever reasonably expect. They find a guy they know is trouble in an office, in a car, or wherever, and they kill him. It doesn't get any more targeted than that, except in cases where you can actually go in with law enforcement. And we can't expect to take the FBI into Afghanistan any more than --- in fact, even less than --- the Israeli's can go into Gaza towns.

So my reading of your proposal is extremely pessimistic: it amounts to allowing our attackers impunity whenever they can get into another sovereign country. And it completely fails to address the problem of state-sponsored and state-abetted terrorism.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[Stephen Samuel]

But what Israel's been doing precisely is targeted counterattacks, and targeted as well as anyone could ever reasonably expect. They find a guy they know is trouble in an office, in a car, or wherever, and they kill him. .....

No. Israel's response is often targeted at people around the terrorist -- even at the population as a whole. They'll shoot kids with rocks, and bulldoze the houses of the families of people who did terrorist attacks -- even though the family didn't know what their relative was planning. They've destroyed entire communities, in some cases.

I have no problems with Israel going after the organizers of terrorist attacks, but when they go after the community, they leave behind people who are angry and desperate. They're essentially using random Palestinins as scapegoats -- to make Israelis feel comforted that something is being done, in response. It's that kind of action that creates latent terrorists.

The comparison makes sense to me

[Spinality]

Though of course the situations are radically different, there is an important way in which they are comparable: their impact on people throughout this country and the world. Pearl Harbor galvanized a divided nation, and drove thousands of earnest young men, such as my father, to shake hands with their friends and grimly march off to enlist. The destruction of the World Trade Center has filled millions of households with sadness, fear, and frustration. We may not have a visible enemy or a clear fight; but we're just as sobered. As a nation, we will never be the same. This was the result on 7 December 1941. For that reason, I think the comparison is valid and useful. We'll never be the same.

JMHO -- Spiny

You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

People are already saying that this was an act of war. You've got to understand that many nations feel that they've been at war with the U.S. long before this first strike back.

Already at war? Those people don't know what war is. We haven't had a real war since World War II, the last time anyone was stupid enough to attack us on our own turf. Looks like we'll get another one. No holds barred, no compromise, I'm talking invasion with unconditional surrender. We taught the Japanese to play nice, we can do it again.

cryptochrome

long, horrible day, but ..

[dd]

Okay, I'm going to be a bad girl, and say this. Mostly the slashdot posts today have been informative and thought-provoking (even, and especially, those I don't agree with). I can't begin to imagine what it was like for so many Americans today. I still can't believe it.

But I have to say I snickered a bit when I reloaded the slashdot front page and saw this headline.. the window wasn't completely refreshed (I'm at home behind a modem now) --> but I saw the headline, and I thought 'Katz' ..... yup. sure enough. and I snickered a bit. thanks Jon. I can't exactly say why, but there are times when you like the world to seem more normal again.Probably only long-term slashdot-ers are going to know what I mean....

From someone in the city

[akiaki007]

Seeing this from outside manhattan I'm sure is quie different from seeing it in here. I was on 5th avenue and 23rd street (Flatiron building) when I first saw the fire at 9:00AM. It was like I was watching ID4. I couldn't believe it. I wish I was asleep. Most people didn't know yet. They were just trying to get to work.

I hurried to work so I can catch the news. My office of 10 were glued to Channel 2 CBS (we don't have cable) till 12 when we all left.

Watching those buildings collapse...nothing can describe the horror. "The horror...the horror." One person I know was there on the Brooklyn Bridge watching people jump out of the building after the second crash. They jumped because they couldn't do anything else.

This is the most devastating thing that has happened in recent history. I hope that we can pull ourselves together, and take action swiftly.

All I know is that all I can see is smoke where the towers stood, overpowering the southern skyline.

I hope all of you can help in any which way possible. As you all know, blood is what is being demanded mostly. Most of the banks here are full for the day, so I will try again tomorrow.

Last thought: I hope all those fuckers in the West Bank handing out candy and celebrating get what they deserve.

have you no shame, Katz?

[smirkleton]

It is so sad, and so wrong, to write a Katzian essay about this. It is also the wrong time to bash you, Jon, so I won't do it. But I am sad to see what and how you have written about this.

The only way out of overseas terrorism..

[Anonymous Coward]

The only way out of overseas terrorism is careful intelligence services' work. That's how Israel kept those guys silent for years. After any act of terror, Mossad made investigations and killed not only those who prepared and executed the act but their relatives, too. The only way to keep those mother@#$ers out of our lives, is to make them feel inevitability of punishment.

The Date!

[mikeman14400]

i don't know if anyone else has noticed but the date is 911, 9-11, what terrible iorny, this was definately planned very intricatly. Using american airlines planes and us arilines planes also.

Sorry for offering offense, but...

[PHAEDRU5]

I read the whole article. Katz's concern about loss of life comes after other issues.

My first reaction was shock and horror over the loss of life. I honestly couldn't believe what I was seeing. I didn't pause to think about convergence of technology, politics, and whatever the hell else struck Katz. If I ever *do* have a Katz reaction, then I'll have to consider that I've left the human race.

Oh, and BTW, this is not intended as flamebait.

Re:Sorry for offering offense, but...

[mvdwege]

Still, I think you missed Katz' point. However, apart from your slightly inflammatory tone, I think that is acceptable. It is after all a tragedy for all concerned, and it is possible for people to overreact in these circumstances.

However, I really got sick of those vindictive moderators that have chosen to use this story to vent their blind hatred for Katz by modding up anyone who bashes him. It shows their immaturity, as moderation is even more anonymous than posting AC. As far as I am concerned they are cowardly little a**holes.

So, you are not to blame. You disagree with Katz, that's okay. I still think your post is sitting too high though.

Think of it this way: Katz first tried to reach a friend, his piece only appeared later in the day after he had some time to reflect on his feelings. That led him to this conclusion, that's what he then proceeded to post. So even if you don't like him, give him some credit please, otherwise you are bound to be mistaken for yet another blind Katz basher.

Mart

Not Pearl Harbor

[idResponse]

"Our New Pearl Harbor" is really a horrible way to state this. This is an attack with our own planes against our own people. This was nothing like pearl harbor at all, it was worse.

I hear a lot of -really- stupid stuff flying from a lot of peoples mouths today... most of it is due to the ability to speak before thinking - which i think is what most people do... people stick blame everywhere at once and say "BLOW EVERYTHING UP" - but then again... don't people stop to think and say "hey... they just killed 13259710295 of our people, if we do the same to some other random country that may or may not be the one who attacked us (IF another country attacked us) what will it accomplish? what we have to do is investigate and figure out what the hell really happened...

it's a sad day, but we'll just have to cope, clean up, life goes on, don't dwell on the distant past and try to reflect it to now. pearl harbor has nothing to do with this, and i really hate that sentiment.

This is extremist, propagandist FUD.

[ToneHog]

Nostradamus has been accurate in his predictions only a small fraction of the time. See man-eating sub-humans in Africa yet, cause that's supposed to happen too!

Take a deeper look into this topic before sensationalizing something that most likely will not happen.

Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Last week, President Bush stated that the $52 billion surplus in the social security fund would not be touched unless of a national emergency or war. That surplus will likely dissappear soon, plus even more will likely be borrowed from the Federal Reserve, pluging the US further into debt.

IF it is found that foreign terrorists were involved, a limited warfare action is likely. Like Korea, like Vietnam, like Iraq. All conflicts that did little more than spend the citizens of the United States into debt.

Who benefits from these wars?

"...we will not tie one hand behind our back like we did in Korea and Vietnam..." -- GWB, the first. Who did the tying? Why were their hands tied? Why did so many people have to die with one hand tied behind their backs?

Congratulations fellow apes, we still haven't learned how to get along.

You reap what you sow ...

[LizardKing]

Sitting here in the UK, where we've had more than our share of terrorist atrocities, I can't help feeling that the rabid anti-Arab sentiments expressed here by US posters are part of the problem.

When I worked in the US, I was amazed at how biased the press was. The Arabs in the Middle East are painted as irredeemable devils, and the Israelis as put upon victims. In the same way, I was shocked at the US portrayal of the Northern Ireland problems - but saw disturbing parallels.

Nothing is black and white. The British army was sent to NI originally to protect the Catholic minority. The Israelis occupied Palestinian land in the late 1940's relying on some archaic biblical texts, and the worlds collective guilt at what had happened to Jews (amongst others) in Nazi occupied territories.

Now we see the fruits of Americas unquestioning support of Israel. US foreign policy in the Middle East was so polarised along pro-Israeli lines for so long, that in the eyes of many Arabs and Islamic extremists the US and Zionism are indistinguishable. And since a poorly armed people can't take on tanks and state of the art military aircraft, ordinary people who just happen to be in New York suffer.

So before whining about terrorism, another Pearl Harbour, etc. look to your own politicians and press. If they gave you a more balanced view of the world (the press), or had shown more spine when dealing with the Middle East for the 40 years (the politicians, Carter and Clinton excepted) then you wouldn't be seeing dead bodies pulled from rubble in US cities.

Re:You reap what you sow ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You unbelievable jingo. Ignoring for a minute the callousness of claiming the dead civilians in New York have "reaped what they have sown", I would like to remind you that the "problem" of Israel is as much the UKs fault as the US. Or did you forget that Churchill offered british support to Chaim Weizmann in winning a "place for his people" in exchange for thirty thousand tons of acetone for use in making explosives? Try a google search on the Balfour Declaration before you start pointing fingers. The US is merely keeping promises pro-Zionist Britain made in the 1940s.

<OBredneck> I hope some cray IRA radical blows up your place of employment so that you can "reap what you have sown."

Re:You reap what you sow ...

[LizardKing]

Ignoring for a minute the callousness of claiming the dead civilians in New York have "reaped what they have sown"

The people in the WTC, many of whom wouldn't have even been US citizens, didn't reap it. It's the US politicians who happily approve Israels aid grants year in, year out, who reaped what they sowed. The irony is that's it's ordinary people - misinformed and powerless - who really pay the cost. So don't misinterprete my cynicism for a lack of regret at what has happened. If I was gloating (as you seem to think), then I would have worded my post much differently.

the "problem" of Israel is as much the UKs fault as the US

As I well know. But Britains real failure to do something lasting about the Zionist issue was compounded by the lack of money and willpower after the war years. Oh, and by the way I'm only half English, so I've not got much of an axe to grind on that score ...

I hope some cray IRA radical blows up your place of employment

I've already survived one close encounter with an IRA bomb (1992, Oxford Street, London), so don't try and patronise me.

Technology didn't cause this

[Tokens]

Actually this terrorist attack was not very technological, but very primitive. Hijacking planes is not something new. The new thing is flying them into skyscrapers, but it it is not very sophisticated, though apparently very efficient.

Why try to get hold of cruise missiles or other high tech weapons with long distance attack capabilities that can easily be discovered and intercepted, when you can easily hijack a plane without to much suspicion and fly it into the most vulnerable place you can find.

For me this puts a missile defense in a very questionable light, since missile attacks doesn't seem to be a very big threat... Put the money on something else that prevents real terror acts, like good security intelligence.

Unfortunately, missile defence advocates will use the WTC attack to their advantage and try to justify the missile defence plans. I say this will only put the USA in the spotlight of more controversy and thus more possible terror attacks.

United Nations statue

[Anonymous Coward]

Rather, it's the implementation of beliefs at fault. for example, the UN has a statue out front of a man beating a sword into a plow

The scripture in question is Isaiah 2 verse 4:
"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post reminds me of the movie "the Killing Fields." At the end of the movie they play the song "Imagine" by John Lennon, where he imagines a world with no religion, no hell, no heaven, no God. - Wouldn't that be a wonderful world.

At first I thought the song was a poignant and profound yet gentle protest to the horrors of Cambodia. But I realized on reflection that it was a horrible, tragic irony. The Khmer Rouge were atheists living in John Lennon's "wonderful" imaginary land without God, heaven, hell or religion. They were "dreamers" (in a hurry) that wanted to create the wonderful world Lennon imagined by getting rid of "RELIGION'S ROLE" in society and they were willing to do it the only way it can be done. By killing everyone who believes in religion, by utterly destroying the hopelessly corrupted culture by killing anyone who was part of it so society could be rebuilt on their "enlightened" plan.

Hate, racism, let's be plain and call it "evil" are not a product of religion, or a product of the lack of religion - they are part of human nature. Religion has often been the excuse for evil but in general it has been a mitigating factor - the complete absense of religion has often seen even greater atrocities.

proper way to rebuild the towers

[Anonymous Coward]

Line the foundations of the buildings with the bodies of those responsible. Build them higher than ever before, and build them on the broken bones of the evil we've conquered.

Compassion first, then action

[cvanaver]

Our first responsibility, as Americans, is to recover. To help the families and survivors of this horrible, cowardly act. Give blood (I already have). Call your loved ones, if they think you were indanger. I, personaly, was working in the WTC as little as 6 months ago. If my project had still been there, instead of moving to Mid-Town, myself and nearly all of my friends would be dead. With that said, I encourage discipline, as opposed to knee-jerk reactions, in response to these actions.

Is bin Laden responsible, maybe, maybe not. I don't care. He was responsible for the last attack on WTC and should be hunted down and brought to justice. Anyone who harbors him should face the same consequences. In no way do I encourage mass-invasions or tactical nuclear strikes. Killing more innocents is not the answer.

A better solution is to be aggressive about terroism. First and foremost, protect against terroism. Improve security, be more vigilant about pursing terroist organizations, support governments in their actions against terrorism (England, Isreal, India) and be more forceful (economic) in dealing with countries that support terrorism (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc).

Finally, acknowledge and react to the fact that the US is neither above nor immune to terrorism. Become active in the elimination of terror. This is in two aspects: 1) Become more sympathetic to world-opinion of the US behavior and react accordingly in areas where it does not comprimise our beliefs as a society 2)hunt down and eliminate those who are actively and violently opposed to the US presence in the international community.

How long does it take for us to call an enemy and enemy? How long does it take to or us to realize there is a war oing on aroundus? How many civilians must die before we are willing to go over political concerns and take action into our own hands? Bombing Afghanistan is not the answer, infiltrating and eliminating danerous individuals and groups is. This attack has raised analogies about Pearl Harbor and the 'waking of a sleeping giant'. The US IS A GIANT, but a giant approach is not the reaction that will be effective. Aircraft carriers are not the answer. Nuclear weapons are not the answer. Intelligence and surgical operations are an acceptable response. The US has some of the best trained military professionals in the world. Now is the time to use them. No more courts, no more bombs, no more FBI, just well-placed bullets to the back of the head. And not just Bin Laden, all those who threaten the US with violence should be dealt with accordingly.

damn why..

[Anonymous Coward]

damnit why couldn't tehy have just flown the planes into jon katz's house and kill him

defining moment

[mz001b]

I used to rank the Challenger explosion as the defining historical moment in my life. One of those days where you always remember where you were and what you were doing. I am sure that today's events will take over the spot for many of us. It is truely incomprehensibe.

went to the beach at lunchtime.

[Anonymous Coward]

stood in the sand barefoot

and watched nyc burn

sun in my face
wind in my hair

smoke in my nose

The next step..

[duck0r]

What do we do now.. Who do we blame? Terriosts, I my self am a Muslim, I live in the US i came from Pakistan... I am a PROUD american..I'd personaly like to say on behafe of all American Muslims, we do not encourage these COWARADLY acts.. ISLAM in now way points to do this and for you terriosts here a enlgish converted quote "If you are harmed by another, you MAY harm him back but do not harm is mother, his brother, his daughter.. HIT HIM BACK and ONLY him.." Essitanntly saying, this extreemness of killing innocent people IS WRONG AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL. - what do we do now? Before we start flaming the palastines, for celebrating in the street's keep in mind that the US funds Isreal.. Isreal in return, COSNTATNLY booms their citys, rapes their women, and kill innocent people as well.. ---- The only thing that i have to say is the US should pull out of funding the isreals we dont have any thing to gain by funding them.. lets end US terriosuim, and let them deal with their own problems. I send my condoulsens and my apogolize to the freinds, the family of the wounded, or dessies in this Tradigy. God Bless.

US terror begets terror against the US

[Anonymous Coward]

One working woman on TV said this was an unprovoked attack against inocent people and we should respond by killing all those responsible.

This is the kind of reaction that scares the shit out of me. Think of Iraq. Sadaam Hussein is doing fine, but a few million Iraqi civilians (kids, parents, people you'd like) have died as a result of the ongoing embargo and destruction of Iraqi infrastructure during the gulf war. Imagine someone bombing the fuck out of US roads, water and power system, and then sealing of the boarders and standing back while millions of people die over the course of 10 years. This is exactly what the US has done to Iraq.

Today's attacks are a further tragedy. But if US citizens want security, now would be a good time to make sure the US government stops terrorizing other countries. Short of nuking the planet, the military can't stop a determined group from hijacking a plane and running it into a building. I'm afraid that people's demand for revenge will further decrease our security. Not to mention attacks on civil liberties. Whats the outlook for unrestricted encryption to protect personal privacy? Not looking good after today.

"People who would trade freedom for security deserve neither" --I forget who said this.

Corin Royal Drummond
corinroyal@yahoo.com

all your base are belong to us

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect sooner or later they'll find out that the hijackers played Quake all day....

American Bureau of Shipping

[merger]

I believe this came from Lloyds of London and offers some hope.

EARLY REPORTS INDICATE ABS EXCAPES THE DISASTER

The 16 American Bureau of Shipping's employees in One World Trade Center were reported to have been evacuated safely. ABS had offices on the 91st floor of One World Trade, one floor below the crash.

ABS employee Clair McEntyre was interviewed on a national network and said that all employees of her company were evacuated safely. ABS recently downsized the New York Office and moved many employees to the Houston headquarters. ABS had 22 employees at the World Trade Center, six were travelling.

Re:American Bureau of Shipping

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks! My father works in the Houston office. I'm sure he'll be very glad to hear they're all OK.

--John

Blood supply

[Epi-man]

At the blood bank in Paramus where I tried to give blood, there were five-hour lines, and the police turned us away.

As the day wears on and I numb to the shock of what has happened, I am again bothered by the reactionary nature of our society. Why does it take a major castastrophe to get people to do what I consider a part of our civic duty? The blood supply is always in dire straits, where are all these volunteer donors the rest of the time? Why does it take such a gross tragedy as this to bring people out to do what always needs to be done? I hope soon science will replace donated blood with a synthetic, but until we get to that point, why can't people realize how important regular donations are? Not only does it help your community, but it helps your health.

Nerd Community Band Together in Time of Need

[scruffy323]

I generally view the Nerd/Tech community generally as some of the best information gatherers and most informed people around and personally am putting a plea out there for our communicty to find out as much as they can and send it to the authorities. Maybe one of us knows something that could spell the end of these evil individual.

Akamai co-founder press release

[ShannonClark]

The rumor about Akamai's co-founder appears to have been true - here is a link to their press release on the subject. Akamai Press release

Re:War?

[alienated]

War?

What if it's a whole Fight Club full of Timothy McVeighs and Tyler Durdens?

It's not outside the realm of possibility that this was perpetrated by Americans, against Americans. If this is a militia-related crime, or the product of domestic paramilitary crazies of any stripe, the US is going to be faced with a major self-confidence crisis because there won't be any convenient Arabic scapegoats.

old quotes...

[Anonymous Coward]

"It has long been a grave question whether any government, not too strong for the liberties of its people, can be strong enough to maintain its existence in great emergencies." - Abraham Lincoln

Congratulations Jon Katz

[Anonymous Coward]

This was your first post I've ever read which didn't manage to piss me off. I was emotionally neutral to it.

3 things

[terricroop]

haven't seen this mentioned yet, though the board is obviously exploding:

1. before the attacks on DC, news sources mentioned that the hostage/crisis FBI team were on the west coast for the week. therefore, there was no one to deal with the hijack situations anyway.

2. none of the principals (Bush, Cheney, Powell, etc) were in DC or anywhere near the buildings hit.

3. of course the US is not going to admit to any intelligence info. it's better to be taken by surprise than to say, "well, we thought they were kidding!" or "we followed a goose chase" instead of stopping the real tragedies. AND, it creates sympathy for the Security Measures we may see coming down the pipe for a long time to come.

so, I think what this amounts to is a warning. and, someone in gov't is on the terrorists' payroll.

- terri

"Big Brother does care. Besides, who else would He watch?"

Foreign Policy 2.0

[Zen Mastuh]

It is universally accepted that today's events are tragic. Thousands of innocent people were killed and the suffering will encircle their family, friends, and others. Our nation is living in fear.

If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.

If we can all learn a lesson today, I hope it is this: that all "leaders" assume responsibility for their actions and stop this millenia-long practice of littering the ground with the bodies of their followers. The time has come to upgrade our foreign policy. When political leaders disagree, let them face off in pistol duels.

Re:Foreign Policy 2.0

[alumshubby]

Assuming these monstrous events were spurred on by religious fervor, I suspect that right now the perpetrators are having a very uncomfortable question-and-answer session with the Almighty.

Thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to thank everyone for being serious about the events that are taking place. Normally the comments of people on Slashdot often are rude and immiture and I am not seeing any of that here. This is truley a modern day Pearl Harbor if not worse. All of my family lives in New York and I am praying that they are OK.

Cruise Missles

[Anonymous Coward]

Well thanks to Clinton we havent bought any new cruise missles since the Gulf War, and we have less than 1000 left in our stock. We used more than that in the first week of the Gulf War!

Who will profit? /ugly dichotomy /Media sux

[vandelais]

What really disgusts me is the Americans who will profit from this tragedy.
Oil companies and their barons.
Currency traders.
CNN-AOL Time Warner-Ted Turner et.al.
Fox-Ruppert Murdoch

As I view the news online, and read and get ready to post this, it dawns on me the ugly realization I am using Netscape.

Over and over again with the footage on tv.
My God.

Re:Who will profit? /ugly dichotomy /Media sux

[Anonymous Coward]

right on brother, our own actions have brought a REACTION. Is this the depression/recession before the war?

Two 747's forced to land in Whitehorse Yukon

[Lawmeister]

First off - my previous post had 2 errors, 'Debt of Honour' was Clancey's book, and yes, GWB was not in power last year, my apologies in writing at too fevered a pitch.

Now, my report regarding the escorted landing of two 747's at Whitehorse International Airport:

11:42am A Korean Airlines cargo 747-400 landed using every inch of available runway

11:50am We spotted another inbound jet
11:52am A Korea Airlines passenger 747 landed coming down just 15 feet above the fence....an awesome and scary sight from only 100 feet away. 3 F-18's (hard to say, they were pretty high up) escorted them in and continued to circle Whitehorse's airspace.

Luckily Whitehorse's runway had just been extended to facilitate 747's last year.

Emergency vehicles kept their distance from both planes, the passenger plane having taxied back to the north end of the runway, as far away from the terminal as possible.

A gray truck approached the passenger plane, dispersing ground personnel to chalk the wheels, then fell in behind an officer wielding a long barreled weapon and backed up behind the officer to the truck and departed the scene

A ramp was brought to the aircraft but no one left for about 20 minutes (at 12:36pm) when a single male came down and walked towards the police vehicles (we could hear the occasional word from a police loudspeaker) he made it about half way when he was obviously ordered to lift his shirt up, turn around, lift his pant legs, then he removed the shirt completely, holding it over his head while continuing to walk towards the vehicles. People with binoculars were able to see several FBI jackets amongst the police. There was a lear jet nearby which was probably used to get the FBI here from Alaska (since as far as I know we don't have any resident FBI in Yukon).

At 12:43pm we were ordered away from the area by the RCMP. Apparently for 'our own safety' - we were on crown land, outside the airport's perimeter fence.

There is the possibility that we may be receiving up to 10 planes, but I have no idea where they could park them.

Further information available at:
http://www.canoe.ca/MoneyNews/sept11_yukon-dow.h tm l
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWorldTrade0109/11_white -c p.html
http://cbc.ca/

Irresponsibility

[jokr2thief]

I read this article and I am suddenly reminded why I failed Journalism. It's irresponsible for people to be writing articles like this. It contains everything my Journalism teacher told me *NOT* to put in an article. People are upset, people are greving and in pain, but that has nothing to do with the facts of the attack. Slashdot is a news service, not a human interest site. You can't allow opinions like this to cloud the facts of the matter. Yes, it was horrific and yes, it is hard to belive that something like this could happen in this day and age, but it's NOT HELPING ANYONE to stir up the populus because no good will come from it. --Jokr2Thief

Fuck That.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted.


I am hated because I am american. They see me as a Jew-supporter and an Arab-hater. They are prejudiced against me, fuck them. They are celebrating in the streets, giving out candy. I hope they all rot in hell.

Re:Fuck That.

[MessiahXI]

I am hated because I am american. They see me as a Jew-supporter and an Arab-hater. They are prejudiced against me, fuck them. They are celebrating in the streets, giving out candy. I hope they all rot in hell.

It is indeed maddening to see such displays. but, truly these scenes are the result of a cultural handicap.

A killing anger

[Arctic Hawk]

Pivco,
I', sorry, but the urge to tell anyone talking calm to go to hell is almost overwhelming. I agree that calm heads must rule. I personally would love to shoot anyone even thought to be involved in this. How can any animal be allowed to live if they participated in this. What did those thousands of people do to deserve this. Those bastards that were shown dancing in joy in the middle east need to learn what it truly means to piss off the U.S. When the U.S. get tired and turns their pathetic little country into a police state we will see who dances in joy. Sorry, but like I said. I do not have a calm thought at this time. And hope desperately that the people involved in this spend the rest of thier pathetic lives suffering.

Re:A killing anger

[Anonymous Coward]

listen people - we all want vengence. Right? Vengence now = more death. Then who wins? No one. Anger and desperation breeds on little minds. Let's skip the middle step of death & destruction & settle this peacefully.

Re:A killing anger

[Navina]

First of all, I can assure you that the entire european people is deeply shocked, too. I am writing from germany, I saw what happened on tv and first called a good friend I have in Texas. Which wasnt easy as almost all long distance lines broke down. I can understand the anger and the resulting hate. But I really hope that revenge will not cause a WW3, which was the first thought I had after thinking of Pearl Harbor. Im sure you also saw what Arafat looked like and what he was trying to express when hearing of the cowardly attacks. His people has, like every religiously defined people, a mass of fundamentalists that usually are led by some more or less intelligent people looking for power. Seeing the people almost dance in the streets made me sick, but they dont represent the whole people, especially not all muslims. Well, for now, we all hope that the guilty will be found quickly and punished hard - and that the situation will not escalate.

Re:A killing anger

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's skip the middle step of death & destruction & settle this peacefully

No, let's nuke em till they glow!

__

[Anonymous Coward]

God is not our babysitter. We make/let/watch our own mess.

Technology? not very helpful today

[mr100percent]

The technology you're referring to was nothing but CNN, MSNBC, sky.com, NYTimes.com all slashdotted for literally hours.

Without access to a working TV, all I had was AOL.com news for my reports.

Also, I was playing Deus Ex yesterday, the scene where terrorists attack NYC and the statue of liberty, and I laughed it off, knowing that it would never happen.

Even the upgraded security, I said "Why secure the world trade center? They'll never attack it again."

cooler heads must prevail

[nanojath]

"at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world."

No. If we attack and kill innocent civilians (which is what a cruise missle assault is going to do, no question) on the basis of suspicions and rumors, then we are no better than the people who did this.

This was an act of war and as a nation we have an obligation to respond in kind. But not crazy, hot-headed and half cocked as you propose.

You Franklin quote is apt. We better consider carefully what we give up, and what we gain. The American you propose to defend may have very little liberty left in it if we allow unbridled passion to guide our response, and then the forces of Evil truly will prevail. Your DEA example is apt too, though not for the reason you seen to think. Sure, maybe the DEA cracked some heads (and if some of them were innocent people or mere junkies? ah well - nobody I know) and maybe agents are safer for it. But guess what: we're still solidly, roundly, wholeheartedly losing the war on drugs. Forests and Trees, friend. There is a line between liberty and caution, between compassion and retalliation. Let's try to at least be aware of when and why we start crossing it.

another picture and video mirror

[-=Izzy=-]

more pictures and videos are here

Re:Fuck you, PHAEDRU5

[PHAEDRU5]

Fly any planes lately?

Where we last turn

[basking2]

When John mentioned praying I thought about how hard this has to have hit so many people to have so many praying. It's really the last resort to some folks and the first to others. Some blame God for this, others blame man and look to God as the solution. We really get a window into our hearts when this type of stuff happens. Oh well, just my 2 cents...

Your search engine is crap....

[NoWhere Man]

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm

Type 'God' in your search engine and you come up with jack.

Re:Your search engine is crap....

[bigdavex]

That's odd. I got 5 hits.

Re:Your search engine is crap....

[ryanwright]

Type 'God' in your search engine and you come up with jack

Funny, I got a number of results.

Missing Person Accounting

[ruby31sar]

Has anyone set up a site for tracking missing and found persons? It would be helpful for someone to gather data from hospitals, word of mouth etc. and post on the web.

Thanks for the outstanding coverage slashdot.

Mike

Patterns of global terrorism; passenger resistance

[Anonymous Coward]

State department background reports give a broader picture of terrorism in the world today.
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/,
(linked from http://www.usnews.com/usnews/briefings/terror0901. htm#documents)

Q. Could this happen again? Now that nearly every airline passenger in the world knows that hijackers could well be on a suicide mission, mightn't a large proportion be non-cooperative while a few terrorists hijack the plane?

Perhaps this happened on the plane that was crashed into the uninhabited PA strip mine, and which may have been headed toward Camp David. Passengers and crew may have heard of the earlier crashes, and concluded they were headed to slaughter, so they might as well resist. A report that someone called from one of the planes to alert authorities that hijackers had taken over and stabbed flight attendents indicates the hijackers method may have been to take over the plane by disabling those in charge with hand weapons such as knives, and threatening to kill hostages, so they would have been vulnerable to a mob.

Re:rebuilding the towers... .001 sales tax!

[Havokmon]

In Wisconsin, a rep was ousted for supporting the Stadium tax.

I'd jump on a tax for the 'finger towers' any day!

OK...

[Danse]

So, basically you think we should fight fire with fire. We should become terrorists ourselves in order to punish those who committed this act. In the end, we will end up locked in a battle to the death with the terrorists responsible for today's attacks, and probably others as well. We will have no moral justification for our acts other than the same justifications that the terrorists of the world normally give. This was not the first stone to be thrown. This is just a bigger stone than usual. Most Americans don't even know what the hell our country does overseas or how our actions affect the people of other countries. Most people don't seem to really care. Is it any surprise that we've made enemies such as this?

Re:OK...

[captaincucumber]

Is it any surprise that we've made enemies such as this?

give me a fucking break.

Re:OK...

[Danse]

Care to elaborate? Or is that the extent of your ability to articulate your disagreement?

Re:OK...

[rpg25]

I'm afraid yes, I do believe that we should counterattack with a bigger stone. The whole point of being a superpower is to have the biggest stones. And there's no point in being a superpower if you don't use them --- if you don't, you are just the supertarget, which is what we are now.

I think it's goofy to think we can just "make nice," and everyone in the world will like us and there will be no more terrorism. Sure, we should try to bring peace to the world --- in our own self interest if nothing else. But it's just goofy to count on that as being our only strategy. Unless you are a true pacifist, there comes a point when you have to say, "OK, it's war now, and we don't win a war by dying, we win a war by killing the other guys."

Imagine if we'd said "Oh, Tojo and Hitler are just misunderstood guys and they're bummed about our foreign policy. Let's let this little Pearl Harbor thing go and just make nice." Neville Chamberlain tried that and it didn't work.

Re:OK...

[Danse]

there comes a point when you have to say, "OK, it's war now, and we don't win a war by dying, we win a war by killing the other guys."

I think this is exactly my point. The terrorists have already gotten to that point, hence the attack. We will do the same. We just have a much much smaller target to hit. I'm saying we shouldn't use a nuke where a sniper rifle is required. I don't expect the US to just sit idly by and accept the attack. I just don't like seeing the bullshit rhetoric about how evil and cowardly the attack was. That's war people. We fund and support this kind of thing all over the world. We just haven't seen it up close on our own soil in a LONG time. Welcome to war. It's ugly. It's unfair. Lots of people die for things they don't know about or understand. We aren't truly innocent though. We are responsible for the actions of our government. Our CIA has trained and supported such groups all over the world to serve our own purposes. Do you really believe that it would never come back to haunt us? Do you really believe that we can fight proxy wars all over the place and never have them touch our own soil?

Re:OK...

[rpg25]

I used to agree with you, but I'm starting to change my mind. So don't take this as an attack, but....

I think other people have already made the argument that the sniper rifle doesn't work. They have done this unwittingly, by arguing against the Israeli approach, which is almost literally the sniper rifle.

The problem is that the people on the other end of the sniper rifle may not mind dying. Maybe the only thing we can do is to take immense, disproportionate countermeasures against the nations that support this. We can't get the terrorists really, because they aren't reasonable. But there are reasonable people in places like Elbonia (fill in your favorite villain here), who promote these kinds of attack because they feel safe.

Anyway, the US is no good at the sniper rifle, and the sniper rifle doesn't work against people in Afghanistan, which is a nest of other people with sniper rifles.

So maybe we have to go back to something we understand: assured destruction. If you sponsor people who bomb the World Trade Center, the US will simply flatten your country. We will take the capital of Elbonia and turn it into glass.

The Soviet Union and the US had this policy through the Cold War and, no, it was not moral, but it was practical and by and large worked.

As much as this comment proposes assured destruction, it's also a plea for someone to come up with an alternative that is both moral and practical. But I don't see one proposed here, yet.

In sadness...

Re:OK...

[Danse]

I understand what you're saying. I think a lot of people feel the same way. If the majority of this country gets behind this plan, then so be it. In any case though, I would like to see the "cowardly attack" and "innocent civilians" and "evil terrorists" rhetoric stop. We, as a country, through our government, have committed many atrocious acts. Some of these acts have come back to bite us. In the end, the world seems to work as you believe. The strong will dominate. Morality is the luxury of nations who have the financial and military strength to hold on to both morality and security at the same time. When our security is threatened, our morality is often set aside as well. Don't forget that, and don't be hypocritical by pandering to the US public with statements about the people attacking us being cowardly and evil. We could very well be considered cowardly and evil for many of the things we've done when we've felt threatened in the past.

Re:OK...

[rpg25]

I'm willing to go with that. It seems to me that morality is, at least to some extent, a luxury of those who can expect to survive with it.

I think, actually, that this is where private and public morality must diverge. That is, I may, if I wish, say that I won't retaliate or preventively strike, someone who wants to kill me. But if I'm a public official, I don't necessarily have that right. If I feel that indulging my personal moral qualms will lead to the deaths of people who trust me to make decisions for them, I don't know that I have that right.

These are, at any rate, deep ethical waters, and reasonable people can reasonably disagree about them.

As for the name-calling, I have two answers:

• When you're at war (or other conflict with people) name-calling just happens. "Evil and cowardly" is public rhetoric.
  
• If it really matters, I think the acts here were evil, but cowardly seems odd, unless you're referring to the people who hid in the shadows and used the terrorists themselves.
  

To some extent, in wartime, some moral rules go by the wayside. And we're caught in zillions of gray areas. What do you do when striking valid enemy targets costs civilian lives? If your opponent uses terror-bombing (as the Axis did in World War II), do you do likewise? In retrospect, the interning of Japanese-Americans was cowardly and evil (but not on this scale). We should regret it, and own it as a wrong, but can still be sympathetic to at least some of the people who thought it was the right thing to do.

One of the evils of war is that most of one's choices will be between bad and worse.

For that reason, we are going to have to start asking ourselves "how do we do what we need to do while doing the least violence to our principles?"

This brings us back to the original question: Do we have an effective response to this, that will not be horrific? I sure hope so. And I don't envy the people who are going to make that decision, any more than I envy Truman or Roosevelt.

Re:OK...

[Danse]

If your opponent uses terror-bombing (as the Axis did in World War II), do you do likewise?

I'd say we did do likewise. Hiroshima? Nagasaki? We killed thousands of people in order to demoralize them and scare them into surrender.

But if I'm a public official, I don't necessarily have that right. If I feel that indulging my personal moral qualms will lead to the deaths of people who trust me to make decisions for them, I don't know that I have that right.

I agree with you on this. That would be a very difficult position to be in. I think the problem is that we, as a nation, are not even being honest with ourselves about the nature of war and our own part in it. We like to see things as black and white. We're the good guys. They're the evil cowardly murderers. When we kill them, it's because it's necessary. When they kill us it's because they're evil. I can't stomach that kind of crap and it's one reason I can't even listen to the radio or tv now. That's about all you hear.

I just don't see how deluding ourselves as a nation can be a good thing.

Re:OK...

[rpg25]

R: If your opponent uses terror-bombing (as the Axis did in World War II), do you do likewise?

D: I'd say we did do likewise. Hiroshima? Nagasaki? We killed thousands of people in order to demoralize them and scare them into surrender.

Yup. I didn't mean to say we didn't. But note that I don't necessarily feel it wasn't a necessary or even a justified evil. I am very grateful I was not called upon to make that decision and live with it. Who are we to say that the costs of invading wouldn't have been greater? Who are we to say that they wouldn't have been greater, even for the Japanese? I'm not saying it would have been, I'm just saying that even reasonable, moral people, in the difficult place of making these decisions, could differ on the conclusion.

One place where I part ways with you is that you seem to think lots of these actions are good and evil without gradation and without context. By analogy, it seems to me that you'd say that a police officer who shoots a bank robber in the act of an armed robbery, was committing murder and was just as bad as the robber. I don't think that's the case.

Feel free to respond --- I don't want to leave you with the impression that I have to have the last word --- but I'm not sure there's much more to be said on this topic. It's been thought-provoking emailing with you,

R

Re:OK...

[Danse]

But note that I don't necessarily feel it wasn't a necessary or even a justified evil.

I can't say that it wasn't justified either. In fact, I believe it was. What I'm getting at is that we don't live in the Middle East. We don't live every day over there with the consequences of the actions of the US. We don't have our homes destroyed. We don't get forced off our land. We don't have loved ones being shot by enemy military. Many people over there obviously believe that this attack was justified. Many of them believe that since the US funds much of the conflict over there, that we're directly responsible for it. I can't disagree with that. It is impossible for us to send money and military hardware over there, knowing exactly how it will be used, and then pretend we aren't responsible for what happens. We do a lot of pretty screwed up things because it's in our best interest, usually financially. Americans conveniently, and consistently turn a blind eye to the actions of our government and the consequences. Well this is one consequence that they can't turn a blind eye to. For once the war has been brought to our country instead of taking place halfway around the world.

I know there are a lot of gray areas and that you can't just label everything good or evil, but while we instantly label this attack as evil and our actions over there as good (at least that's what you hear in the media), remember that that's only one perspective. We aren't the ones over there living with the consequences. Even though there are only a minority that hate the US with such passion as to cause them to take the kind of action we saw the other day, there is at least a majority that strongly disagree with what the US has done in the Middle East. When we retaliate, that disagreement could turn to hate if we're not cautious and precise with our retaliation.

Regardless of how this turns out, I don't think we've seen the end of such attacks. America is far too quick to take advantage of weaker countries. Only when they fall in line and comply with our desires do we tend to offer them any assistance. The rest of the time, we play them against each other, arming and training one side or another, whatever gives us the best advantage. If we continue with such policies, we will engenger more hatred and we will suffer for it. The saddest thing is that most Americans will never know or understand what their government is doing. We simply don't pay attention to anything other than what we're spoon-fed on the nightly news. And we generally accept even that with whatever spin they decide to put on it. Only since the freedom of information act was passed are we even able to get accurate (with a lot still blacked out) information on things that happened 30 or 40 years ago. You gotta wonder what kind of stuff we'll be finding out our government did in the last decade when we get the info on it in another 30 years.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I wonder if anyone else was reading it :) As always, feel free to respond, I'm not looking to get the last word either :) It's been interesting.

Group Takes Responsibility

[Anonymous Coward]

The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) has
reportedly claimed responsibility for the attacks on the World
Trade Center. This report, fromm a television station in Abu
Dhabi, in unconfirmed.

PEM
-PEMERCIER@sympatico.ca

Re:Group Takes Responsibility

[metachimp]

BBC reports this to be false; the leaders of that group have formally denied any involvement...

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[hearingaid]

You may not have experienced war since WW II, but certainly a number of other countries have experienced war, either directly with U.S. troops or with U.S.-trained and -funded troops. A partial list:

• Korea
• Vietnam
• Cambodia
• Hell, most of Southeast Asia
• Nicaragua
• El Salvador
• Chile
• Hell, most of Latin America
• Iraq
• Palestine
• Iran
• Lebanon
• Hell, most of the Middle East

Well, at least most of Africa and Europe have remained free of the grip of American soldiery.

This is why the terrorists engage in these kinds of activities. They do not feel they have anything to lose. Sadly, they may be right: the United States' grasp of realpolitik is incredibly weak.

Technical Reprecussions?

[AnalogBoy]

Ponderence:

How will the structure of websites change, in light of the horrific nightmare of traffic today. CNN and ABCNews QUICKLY ditched all the flashy stuff on their page and adhered to the KISS Principal - apparently, they werent fully prepared - maybe they will be now, and they'll keep a "Emergency Situation" page on standby. For once, ./'s relative simplicity wins out.

Now if only we could get katz to STFU and stop telling us how to interpret events that are already etched in our minds for good.

[tag:bitchin] On a side note, my company (an unnamed broadcasting network) decided today would present a good opportunity to shut down and do major work on our systems. We sent our entire staff home early, quit broadcasting, etc, etc, etc... but noooooooooo, i'm here till god knows when tonight fixing servers on a day when i'd rather be at home with my thoughts ARGH! Anyone in the southeast need a good solaris admin!? [tag:quitcherbitchin]

No saviours here

[Anonymous Coward]

If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.

These terrorists are a long way from any of the righteous figures you mention. The sooner we send them to judgement day (or their next life as a filthy rat), the better.

Re:No saviours here

[Zen Mastuh]

These terrorists are a long way from any of the righteous figures you mention...

Not to start a flamewar, but your post is proof that reading comprehension in America is a thing of the past. I was not comparing the speculated terrorists to any princes of peace.

The sooner we send them to judgement day...

Apparently you are just as far from the righteous. Please explain why killing anyone sooner is better, or how killing is even good at all. "Thou shall not kill" was not a qualified statement.

NYT has info, too

[Anonymous Coward]

And the slashdotters can stop complaining about the nyt for today because they seem to have suspended their subscription service.

Are technological safeguards possible ?

[Birger Johansson]

I would like to ask if technological safeguards can prevent something like this from happening again ?

It may be poor taste to bring up this topic so soon after the massacre, but at least thinking about the problem gave me something constructive to do, instead of just watching the scenes on TV with helpless fury.

Apparently, suicide hijackers used civilian airliners as projectiles,
totally ignoring the loss of civilians in the aircraft and the targets.

It seems the *cockpits* are the places where safeguards would be effective.
Airports can be made safer, but there is always the risk of ground crew being recruited by hijackers for smuggling weapons past security. Nor will it be effective to place AA batteries on the roofs of every possible target.

A system with *continous* "biometric" verification of the identity of the pilot/pilots sitting at the controls is the first step.
If an unauthorised person sits down at the controls, the system should regard him as a possible suicide pilot, set the autopilot to cruise mode, and disconnect the cockpit from the controls.
It should not be possible to force the authorised pilots to steer the aircraft the final part of a collision course, even at gunpoint;
in that situation the pilot has nothing to lose by disobeying the hijackers.

If and when ground control has verified it is a false alarm, they can transmit an override code, (which is unknown to the aircrew), re-introducing manual control.

The new (not yet introduced) world standard for air traffic control is a decentralised system, based on an invention by Swedish engineer Håkan Lans, and depends on computers in every airliner, communicating in an internet-like way.
Maybe this could be a second line of defense ?
This system might be modified to regard some (potential target) zones as off-limits. If the aircraft enters an off-limit zone,
or if the traffic control system is disconnected, the aircraft should likewise enter a cruise mode, without a possibility for hijackers to manouvre the craft.

There are obvious questions about how to prevent false alarms, or technical problems, from jeopardising the aircraft during normal flights, but I assume those problems will be minor,
compared to making every airport 100% secure,
or installing static AA defenses around all buildings that terrorists may regard as targets.

Yours

Birger Johansson
Umeå, Sweden

Retaliation: U.S. *Already* Terrorist Target #1

[surfimp]

There's a theme going on here that "The U.S. should not retaliate for this incident because that retaliation will breed more enemies".

Here's the problem with that reasoning: The United States is perceived with great loathing by numerous groups (terrorist and otherwise) around the world. The images of Palestinians celebrating the fall of the towers illustrates this pretty succinctly. Perhaps this loathing is not unfounded; the U.S. has to some extent earned this reputation with it's tactics and politics both currently and in the past.

Regardless of that debate, the point is that the U.S. is already one of (if not the prime) terrorist targets in the world today. We've already made our enemies, either through our political and military practices or through a simple abhorrence of our Western culture being in direct conflict with the values and beliefs of various political organizations and fundamentalist religious groups. I don't think we need to fear inspiring additional vehemence through a reprisal for this attack--they hate us thoroughly already, and are (to the best of our knowledge) doing as much as they can to target us in any way possible already.

In contrast, I don't feel that we have yet come close to our potential to combat these terrorist activities. Surely, today is the first day of a new era in the United States, both in terms of how we think about security domestically, and how we attempt to ensure our security internationally. We are aware of numerous groups worldwide whose main avowed purpose is the destruction, preferrably through violent means, of the United States in particular and Western culture in general.

It is my opinion, completely outside of some value judgements as to whether "We" are right and "They" are wrong, that the United States definitely need to send a signal that this terrorist behavior, this complete disregard for any form of human life, will not be tolerated. We have the power to send this message and to make sure it's meaning will not soon be forgotten. We have opposed terrorism throughout the world for decades, through both political sanction and direct military action. It is now time to take that opposition to a higher pitch.

The dangers of overreaction...

[BSDevil]

First off, let me express all my sympathies to everyone who had a loved one in or around the WTC (or Pentagon) areas today; I hope to God they're all right. I have some friends who work in NYC who I haven't yet been able to get through to - they recently moved farther North, but I'll feel a lot better when I hear their voices.

When I first turned on CNN this afternoon (after coming home from the Science Museme as a result of being told about the disaster) my instinctive reaction was to call up the Air Force and carpet-bomb Kabul and most of Libya. I now realize that this is the last thing we should do. Yes, vengence must be had, but not now. Now is the time to plan and to calm everyone down.

I remind the crowd of what happened after the Reischtag fire leading up to World War II. Now, I'm not saying that Bush planned this or will turn the country into a dictatorship, but now not the time to rattle up the emotions of a scarred people. We must remember the lessons of history (and simple common sense): sleep on it. Wait a week or so, find out who did this (or narrow the list down a bit), THEN bomb the shit out of them. It's not the best response, but (as I see it) it's the only thing that will placate the American people.

In the mean time, they should use the huge tide of World opinion that is with them now for some good. Redouble their efforts to find Osama (or whoever's responsible), and then knock him off. A parable for caution: the recent Air Transat thing. At first we all though the pilots were heros for saving the plane (and they still are, to a certain extent). Only after careful examination did we see how bad they (and the company) screwed up keeping the plane safe.

To wit: wait a while, recover, then bomb the shit out of them.

Berkely University hosted register of survivors

[swmccracken]

A friend writes that:

This site will register people who are safe:
http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/

You can query this site to search for people:

http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php

Please spread the word

(And it looks like this site should withstand the slashdot effect.)

Okay people, let's sit down, catch our breath...

[Anonymous Coward]

and think a little. Enough with the sensationalistic speculations about 50,000 people being killed. The second trade center was probably almost completely evacuated by the time it was hit, and everyone in the first below where the plane struck probably had time to get out before it collapsed. My estimate is that 3,000 or fewer died in the attack.

I'm frightened...

[XRayX]

First of all I wanna say all the affected people and their friend and families, that I feel withnthem and that I am praying for them.
Second, I want to tell you about my feelings about this. I'm not living in America, so maybe I don't know exactly how it is for you guys there; but even I am damn frightened.
I'm frightened about what will come tomorrow...
I'm frightened abou what the U.S. Government will do...
I'm frightened about what will happen in Germany...
and... finally...
I am frightened if this IS the 3rd World War!
I'm now 15 years old, never had been in touch with war and lived a nice peacefully life... and now?
Thousands died today... a whole city looks like the location of apocalypse... the sky was burning and stones were falling down...
and that was only the first day.
I'm frightened about what to come... and this was jzst the first day...

Re:I'm frightened...

[Anonymous Coward]

The united states has been isolated from violence and destruction for far too long. Our youth have no concept of the harsh realities of the rest of the world. I guess no more.

Re:I'm frightened...

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to a new world, where the justice system applies to the world, not just the US.

Technology????

[Evro]

Technology turns planes into weapons.

How? How is "technology" responsible for this? I noticed this 'feature' was from the "Techno-Armageddon dept." I think Jon Katz is a little psycho with his attempts to integrate technology into every significant event that occurs.

There was an interview on (I think) CNN with a "security expert" who stated that this was a remarkably low-tech attack ("low-tech, high concept" were his exact words). The US spends billions on high technology solutions to fend off enemies (star wars, better metal detectors, etc), but in this case it was indeed a low-tech attack. A plane filled with fuel manually piloted into a huge iconic building. It wasn't even a foreign country's plane! It was a domestic plane that was hijacked with an apparently undetectable weapon. It could have been a plastic knife for god's sake; how much more low tech can you get? While I'll concede that a 767 itself is indeed a marvel of high technology, planes capable of destruction like this have been around since at least World War 2. A B-52 could have caused similar damage. As numerous others have doubtless mentioned, this is evidence that the US has focused far too much on high-tech solutions.

This is likely the worst attack to occur on American soil; an act of terrorism perpetrated by (IMNSHO) supremely evil people. It will probably be regarded as the worst tragedy in our history. To try and blame this simply on "technology" belittles the event.

It's the people who matter

[melquiades]

And yet it's still the people that matter, not the technology. We all know that, and despite this being a site for nerds, this is stuff that Matters.

Yes, well spoken. And this is true of all the arguments for and against technology. Is technology evil? Is it good? Does is change our lives? Yes to all -- but it is really people who evil and good, people who change one another's lives.

Technology makes ideas powerful, and this changes the world. This was true when language appeared thousands of years ago, and it's true of the computer within our lifetime. In the arc of history, it is the people who matter most. That is why all of the choices we make now as individuals about our thoughts and actions are tremendously important.

Technology makes ideas powerful. If there is hate in the world, if there is vengeance, if there is fear, they will become powerful. And if there is wisdom, it can become powerful, too.

Let's be wise in the face of this tragedy.

Fuck you Katz

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't beleive Slashdot cheapens this entire tragedy with a crappy jon katz article.

Pearl Harbour Analogy UNFAIR

[inicom]

The analogy with the attack on Pearl Harbour is completely unfair and inaccurate. The attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbour was an attack on an exclusively military target, during wartime, shortly after declaration of war against the US.

As a side note, the US and Gerrmany were already at War, and the Pacific theatre, while not the center of action, did have German vessels.

In short, Pearl Harbour, while a surprise and disaster to the US, was not a terrorist attack.

Todays horrific attacks were terrorist in nature, apparently without advance warning, and against predominantly civilian targets.

Today's attacks were not by brave but misguided soldiers, but perpetrated by cowards.

Re:Pearl Harbour Analogy UNFAIR

[the eric conspiracy]

shortly after declaration of war against the US.

The Japanese declaration of war was not delivered until after the attack started.

In the case of today's events most of the likely culprits have already publicly declared war on the US.

The best photo I've seen of all this nightmare

[hakkikt]

http://www.spack.nu/wtc/wtcboom.jpg

Encryption/Echelon/etc.

[AnalogBoy]

Will this event become a rallying point for more Carnivore, Echelon, and all those other things the paranoid masses love to hate? This could be blamed on all those SIGs that state "HITLER KKK WHITE SUPREMACY ASSASSINATE YADA YADA SHRUBYA". I don't want to get the conspiracy theorists and GNUzlots started, but, geez, maybe if you guys wouldnt have stopped them from doing their jobs..

[This message NOT smiley captioned for the intelligence-impared. If you can't figure out which parts are sarcastic, you shouldn't be moderating!]

Science Fiction Tragedy

[Wagnur]

This disaster reminds me of countless science fiction stories which recounted tales of powerful weapons in the hands of terrorists and/or general bad guys. But now its happening. And the real world result is that people of Muslim faith are going to be stereotyped here in America. Civil liberties and rights will fall by the wayside as Congress decides to ignore them in order to restore order (even if the rights have nothing to do with terrorism). Isreal will get tons of support from America from now on (since their enemies look similar to Osama bin Ladin), and countries all over the world are going to try to be real nice to the US considering Americans aren't really willing to take too much crap at the moment. And eventually, someone is going to walk into a busy airport terminal with a bioweapon or chemical weapon (read: 12 Monkees). I was expecting a major act of terrorism soon, but this was so massive it really was like something out of sci-fi. Lets just hope things don't turn out as bad as those writers predict...

In the long run ...

[Anonymous Coward]

it's our level of consciousness that must be changed.

"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them." Einstein

Otherwise it's tit-for-tat until the end of time (as we know it).

My heartfelt sympathy to the families who have lost their loved ones.

On this day...

[Anonymous Coward]

11 September 1996. Taleban take Jahalab on the Afghan/Pakistan border.

Retaliation: How?

[stevewz]

I'm going to be very pragmatic for a second and talk about retaliation. Terrorists behave and go about their business (terrorism) in a very particular way ... it is ruthless, without rules or boundaries or honor ... and they do so with very closed minds, discarding thoughts of "collateral damage" or long-term repurcussions. They are nimble, agile, and quick to react to changes in the situation.

How do you react to a terrorist act? With their modus operandi in mind, you don't do so with standard military procedure. That's why (in part) the colonists were able to oust the British ... the British played by very specific rules of engagement (wearing red, marching in a straight line) while the colonists used whatever means were necessary to win.

If we are to effectively retaliate, and much more importantly, prevent future attacks, we must act with many of the same techniques and procedures that the terrorists themselves use. This means that our strike forces need to be nimble, agile, quick to respond to changing circumstances, and leave many rules of engagement behind when doing so is necessary.

Unfortunately, this approach is almost 180 degress opposite of how "civilized" societies conduct war. The truth of the matter is, as the WTC/Pentagon attacks so clearly demonstrate, war does not have rules. It is brutal, bloody, and without honor. If you think about it, there is no such thing as "honorable war" ... it is an oxymoron.

My father told me when I was growing up, "Son, do everything you can to avoid getting into fights in school. But if something comes up where you DO have to fight, do everything you can to win." Well, someone else just picked the fight. Are we as a nation going to do everything we can to win?

it's our fault

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

As many people all around the earth i'm shocked by this.

On the other hand it might be time to think about what other people live everyday. Yes, in many countries the fear you discovered today is part of everyday life. Kids grow up with this fear, and it's normal you see them enjoying this barbarian act. WE manipulated them, WE are their ennemy.

Thouthand of people die everyday from ethic mass killings to cultural destruction and quest for power. But WE don't care, news don't talk about it(those subjects might not be profitable enough maybe...), and it has no direct impact on our everyday life. But it's still death of people for stupid reasons.

We have everything from comfort of live to freedom of speech and we still, mostly for economical (=political) reasons, manipulate them and play with their lives. Yes it's not as direct as this infamy but I really consider it as disgusting.

So please American citizens(and from any other country d'ailleurs), don't be stupid and don't look for revenge. Try to understand the world around you, see how many countries have been manipulated by our countries and how many lives it costed just for us to have a better life... Fight for the stupid laws that are going to come those might will take our freedom.

If we don't begin now to respect other people/cultures/... yes the real shit is going to happen.

this is not a troll, it's just what i think.
I'm more and more disgusted by the so called ' humanity'

Guillaume

How many innocents will die in the retaliation?

[Anonymous Coward]

When the US bombs some tent-camp somewhere
(with incomplete evidence) innocent people
will die.

again with the journalistic integrity.. good lord.

[SpazAttak]

...the cool, clear, cloudless day...
...and up above the giant white clouds steaming...

wtf?
are you stupid?

Intelligence Agencies are shit

[Garry Anderson]

>It is said on just about all the major news networks that there has been an intelligence breakdown. That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists.

A load of bollocks - this is propaganda by the agencies to divert attention away from themselves.

They have NO IDEA about encryption measures - now have they?

Come on - spend five seconds to think about it.

Terrorists know they are being looked for by Carnivore and will get around it by other measures.

I have always said - terrorism is just the excuse they use, to raise funds for Carnivore - to spy on the people.

Use your brains - if you have got any.

"A man that would sacrifice his freedom for security deserves neither." - Thomas Jefferson.

P.S. The authorities use trademarks as excuse to muffle speech on the Internet. Please visit WIPO.org.uk

Wait for answers, dont jump to conclusions...

[djcdplaya]

everyone seems to think this is a terrorist faction in afganistan or iraq or libya or whatever, but isn't that what everyone thought of oklahoma city?

what will we do if it is a group of wacko's from jersey? will we bomb jersey into a parking lot? That seems to be many peoples' feeling on /. and on other sites around the web.

how about rebuilding the towers and acting a little new testament instead of old testament.

Some people around the web want SAMs (surface to air missles) in large cities. What if someone gets a hold of those? Come on people, think! Dont jump to conclusions, it only makes you look like a fool. Trust me, i've already done that today. Let's pick up the pieces and help americans rebuild instead of talking of leveling some country around the world.

Best wishes ...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's such a random, senseless crime, to see the towers collapse on tv was surreal. It really hurts me that that many innocent/defenseless citizens were killed for no reason. I don't know what can be done to avenge, or more importantly prevent this from happening again, but it's going to take time for this to work itself out. We've never had anything like this in our lifetime, not even wars or Pearl Harbor really measure up to this; as this is so unexpected, un-provoked and so close to home.

I just can't believe it.

Best wishes for your friend, and let's all think of the ppl that lost their lives today for no reason.

P

What surprises me more than Katz' insensitivity...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is that Eric Raymond hasn't felt it necessary to type up a letter to the world on our behalf stating our position on the matters at hand (and without any collaboration with the open source community, as usual).

Maybe he's too busy starting his own religion. I don't know.

Religion is involved as much as Tech

[Zipididee]

Do not forget that the basis of the ideal of the attack is religious zealotry with a side helping of malice and envy.

The technology that was used has been available for at least ten years. Cell phones, guns, physical threats, email, encryption. Could this have been accomplished without these tools? Yep. Remember the 1970's? "Am I going to Miami today or Cuba?" "Cooper?"

Working under the present assumption that this may be Bin Laden's work (funded by Hussein and perhaps Qaddafi?) this is simply another jihad. More important and certaintly a more spectaculator jihad perhaps, but condoned by the very theology. The Taliban was formed in extremists schools in Palestinian hands.

Fanatic politcal/religious zealots. With funding.
The technology is not responsible. Just more efficient.

So how does this work?

[Anonymous Coward]

You just walk into an airport an grab a few airplanes and pretty much do whatever you want with them? How many times have I been delayed because of a keychain in my pocket... How can those guys just bring guns into airplanes? It's safe to assume they had guns. Or a bomb.

Re:So how does this work?

[metachimp]

The wife of the Solicitor General, Barbara Olson, was aboard one of the planes, and she made two phone calls to the Justice Department. Reports claim that she said the terrorists carried knives and boxcutters, and herded the passengers and crew into the rear of the plane. Apparently, the pilots were killed/disabled, and the terrorists took over control of the plane.

Re:So how does this work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need guns or a bomb?

2-3 guys can easily overpower the flight attendants, break into the cabin, snap the necks of the pilots... It's not hard. Maybe a knife (which if made of hard plastics are undetectible, and just as effective on flesh)

And the rest of the passengers will go along because they think they're going somewhere else for ransom or some other political purpose...

Not until the few moments before you hit the deck to you realze what's going on...

Too bad the pilots don't carry guns... Or have armored and locked cabins...

hypocrites?

[Anonymous Coward]

We condemn fanaticism and when we are struck, we behave like fanatical loonies...

We condemn civil/human right violations and want to destroy them for others ("revenge! let's nuke'em")

We cry out about wiretapping, except when used against "terrorists on US soil"

...

Killing the first plausible suspects and then claiming them guilty won't bring anybody back from the dead.

Everybody already knows US is the most powerful nation on earth.

We don't have to prove it to anyone by killing more people.

Or if we do, then we're in a sadder state than anyone would have imagined.

Please, let's grow up as individuals and as a nation.

The world cannot sustain us if we act like morons.

Talk about an elephant in a glass store...

Its at times like this America may regret Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Good to know (B-average student) Bush is now planning what to do next. U.S.: maybe it wasn't such a good idea to elect a stupid president!

Re:Its at times like this America may regret Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? If only Dubya's brilliant missile defense shield had been finished by now all this would have been averted! The man is a genius!

A capital gains tax cut would also have helped to prevent this.

More speculation

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone else notice that all aircraft involved were boeing 767's (or 757's)? My guess is that the terrorists had got some cockpit training in the particular make and model. To pilot these aircraft with enough precision to hit a target would take a little bit of know-how.

system is broken...

[Anonymous Coward]

Religion + nacionalism(any) + capitalism + state(every country is criminous) = ...
Every state goes down one day, US, irak, israel, anyone, will end ... historical materialism ... Rome ended.
You can die with then , like the terrorists, selling yourselves to your country, or you can ask "why they hate us(you, im from brazil) ? " Ask the racist Bush.

I known, I known my country is "evil", shi.. its a state afterall.
hopping for peace...

PHOTOS from across the river. Taken 2 hours ago

[Anonymous Coward]

http://community.webshots.com/album/21192612TpmwnB bJLa

These are all unedited photos taken by me.

The Date 911, 9/11

[mikeman14400]

It is obvious this is very well planned and thought out mission, being that they used american airlines planes and us air planes, along with the date being 911 this is a terrible tragidey. ~MikeMAN

Glaring error

[Anonymous Coward]

The war is over how to pray to the same God, the God of Abraham. And that's the same God the Christians kill each other over how to pray. It's all about how you pray, not who you pray to. Ponder that.

In a way, he's right

[Tomcow2000]

This will become a second Pearl Harbor, but not in the way Katz thinks. Remember the way the Japanese were treated after Pearl Harbor. They were gathered up and put into camps. They were gathered up like cattle and put into camps. They lost all their belongings. Now imagine this response times 100, directed towards Arab-Americans. There are an enormous number of extremely evil people in this world, but not all Arabs support this aciton, just as not all Japanese supported their actions. Not to mention that this attack was not endorsed by any government. I apologize for this rambling post, I'm just angry. This is not war with anyone. This is an isolated attack on the United States. However, I feel that the US' response to this attack will effect just as many, if not more, families.

Careful about targeting one source...

[Pollux]

This was our main subject in Psych class today at college, and our professor was especially worried about it.

Our professor is an Egyptian and an active Muslim. She was especially worried because everyone here in America associates BinLaden with the Islamic faith. It's as far from the truth as possible. BinLaden calls himself a "Fundamentalist Muslim," but has been denounced by Muslims throughout the world. She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion. It puts such a heavy burden on her here in the United States, since no one understands the fundamentals of the Muslim faith.

We should not go out on a witch hunt, because we are not sure yet who did it. But even more, people need to understand that these are INDIVIDUALS. They are INDIVIDUAL ACTS. They DO NOT represent any race of people, any religion of people, or any country of people.

I just hope people can find a way to understand.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I hear this argument all of the time, and I am sick of it, for a couple of reasons:

1) I have travelled all over the world and while I often hear of this mythical Muslim country where violence is never condoned, I never see it. I spent a month in Pakistan mountaineering last year, and almost every Pakistani I spoke with thought of Osama Bin Laden as a national hero. Any time I brought up any terrorist incident committed in the name of Islamic fundamentalism, I was always replied to with a "yes, but" and given a screed about zionism and the crimes of the west.

2) Islam as a religion teaches that Sharia is the basis of law and society. Sharia is handed down by clergy. Islamic society is fundamentally undemocratic, since the Koran cannot be challenged.

I don't think it is possible to reach common ground between Islamic and Western society. One culture must fail. I don't want that culture to be mine!

Ken

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

We have more than enough bullets to put one in the skull of every palestinian, starting with Yasser Arafat.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's probably why I saw images of people rejoycing after "the evil americans got it up their", someone rejoycing at this kind of scene is not human, We don't let dogs bite our children, why should we let these terrorist-infested spores in different parts of the world live?

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Pig Hogger]

the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion.

So, what are the muslim authorities doing to get rid of that image-breaking Ben Laden???

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

3) Christianity as a religion teaches that the Bible is the basis of law and society. The Bible is handed down by clergy. Christian society is fundamentally undemocratic, since the Bible cannot be challenged.

4) You are a retard.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Migelikor1]

Unfortunately, you let yourself forget one thing: the PC idea that just because a large group of people hold an idea, you can't dislike it is bullshit. My Muslim friend today was raging; he is of mixed race from Turkey and Syria, but has lived in the US since he was 10 years old. He made an interesting point: islam in some areas is at a stage like catholicism was in England in the 14-1500s. The Jihad (holy war) is just like the Crusades or inquisition, repugnant practices performed by ignorant people under the auspice of religion. I don't dislike Muslims, but I feel free to despise the state their religion is in in foriegn countries, and hate those engaging in a Jihad against the United States. The acts of those people may not represent a whole group, but it is because of the group they are commiting them. Knock out oppresive fundamentalist religions the world over, (taleban anyone?) and hate any group that insists on hating you. If they are completely irrational, they may be treated as...GASP...enemies.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[killaeecs]

I think we should look carefully and find out what groups are responsible for this. We should find out what groups are associated with these groups. Then we should strike with swift and overwhelming technological force.

Personally, I don't give a damn if we kill their civilians. If they choose to kill my brothers and sisters, I see no reason why I should restrain myself. We should use full force to eliminate the perpetrators.

The only problem is that we don't have a solid location to strike, or even a country to associate terrorism with. It's a bunch of people who are de-localized, and it's just too much trouble to go out hunting for 20 men at a time. We need better security; what we have now is a joke.

I am a democrat, but I have always opposed the downsizing of the military. I worked for the Navy and NASA for summers and they do not have the tools to create new technology at the same pace as industry. They have to cut on money, and that is the last place to cut on costs. I would rather my neighbor be alive than 10 starving people somewhere else. Stupid Clinton helped wittle away our military, now we are going to have to be careful with our resources...

take care

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Spike_/\_]

Following a little bit of /. tradition, you can read bin Laden's words here:
(Jihad against Americans - 1998)
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
and "Declaration of War" 1996
http://azzam.com/html/articlesdeclaration.htm

He quotes scripture nearly every paragraph. This will be a watershed for Muslims everywhere, I think.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would agree with this. The only problem is seeing people in Palestine throwing parties like it was New Years. When children are taught that this is a great day because of what happened to the US, something is very wrong. No matter what their governments say for them, action must be taken. They could be quakers for all i care, the second you celebrate something like this, your life has no value. I say destroy the area and take it over as the 51st state

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[horza]

These are individuals? They don't represent any race or religion or country? Are you mad? You think a disparate group of people saw "Terrorism tonight" and decided to give it a go despite the warning "don't try this at home"? OF COURSE they did it in the name of a religion. They weren't crazy, they would have to be very intelligent to pull off such an attack. You may say they are a minority but please don't insult our intelligence.

Phillip.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[duffbeer703]

That's a nice thought, but it will never happen.

Everybody is shocked at the moment, anger has not kicked in yet. When the smoke clears and the mangled bodies of civilians and fireman are pulled from the rubble the muslim world will be in a world of hurt.

These terrorists have upped the stakes and have forced the world's most powerful military power into a corner. Over 10,000 Americans are DEAD. When 10,000 people die, pleas for compassion go unheard.

America's revenge and reprisals will be swift, violent and devastating. May god have mercy on whoever is behind this, because we won't.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Captain Sarcastic]

Yeah, well I don't know about you, but I know that I am mad as hell. I'm not going to give a good @#%$ about whether the people I want revenge against are really the ones who ordered the attack or are just convenient, 'cause to tell you the truth, that takes thought, and I'm just too angry and I'm just too scared and I hurt just too much to indulge in that little luxury! I want blood, and I want it now, and if it turns out to be the right blood, so much the better!

<IRONY=OFF>

This is the sort of thinking that we're going to be dealing with... the sort of knee-jerk reaction that's going to lead to people calling in bomb threats against mosques in the US (as has happened in Kansas City, and doubtless in other parts of America)... the same sort that led to such less-than-glorious chapters in American history as the Manzanar Internment Center.

Hopefully we'll outgrow it as a people. Personally, I am more interested in accurate justice than convenient justice, because convenient justice sometimes snags people like me.

Just my two cents... leave the change in the penny bowl.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Dix]

Well, they've expelled him so far from Saudi Arabia and Sudan ...

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[nonchalance]

Tell me. If the US found out that it was terrorists from Palestine that did it, and they bombed the hell out of Palestine, would there be Americans celebrating? I think there would.
The US has treated Palestine like shit, and thus Palestine hates them.
Weren't there Americans celebrating when they blew up a whole section of Iraq?
Get over yourselves, people. Learn that you have to judge others by the same criteria that you judge yourselves.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[nonchalance]

So what you're saying is that we're obviously so superior to these sub-human thugs, so let's kill them all?
And then will you dance in the streets?
It is not your decision as to who should live and who should die. Killing people for believing what their media tells them is not human.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

you are fool and your teacher is EVIL. ALL practicing muslims condone this behavior, not openly because they are cowards. As is the case with all religions, Islam is inherintly evil. They hate us because we don't believe in their gods. The only way to stop this maddnes is to kill all gods and all who believe in them.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't help but point out some blatant inaccuracies in this thread. I am a Muslim. I grieved over the attack. I prayed for victims. I saw some misguided soul's post saying that Islam is based on killing (because he saw something in a museum someplace). This is very much wrong, and it makes me sad to see such a post go unanswered. The scripture strictly prohibits what he claims it advocates (converting people by force). Do you think five bilion people around the world follow religion which advocates senseless murder? As for Bin'Laden, I'd shoot him myself if ever presented with a chance. That man is not a Muslim and his followers aren't either. It is my belief that they are all going straight to hell. Please do not take actions of a few sadly mistaken twits and judge Islam and Muslims by them.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[trotsky81]

Actually, in many churches (mostly those that are not Catholic), the Christian society is QUITE democratic, as deacons, elders, commitee members, etc are elected by the church as a whole or through some means of representation. Also, pastors are often approved by churches by a vote of a simple majority, the simplest form of democracy I can think of.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

individual acts?... they where coordinated and must me responded to in a decisive and timely manner lest the organization repeat its acts. I do not desire the same happening here in Canada. That said this is also not a justification for blanket action attacking foes real and immagined.

• Ok I am going on a RANT here but this is by view of the matter... Whoever is responsible may justify their acts in many ways but yet we forget we are all responible. I do not believe in denying responsibility as leaders lead. Individual actions do and will represent your(our) race people and religion. A punitive response is inevitable. I hope that in the end the good we do will cause others to follow the same path. But as it stands I think the military will try to do a few course corrections...

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[AsylumWraith]

Really effective. I'm sure Bin Laden being expelled from two countries is really comforting to the families of the victims of today's tragedy.

Bin Laden is a rabid dog who needs to be put down.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Thangodin]

While wall-to-wall carpet bombing is very tempting, it probably won't achieve the purpose. What is needed is a different kind of war, involving small teams or individuals; almost a war of assassins. There is an overabundant supply of naive and angry civilians eager to become martyrs and shed blood for the cause. Mass destruction tends to make more of them. Look around you. What we need to do is put a well aimed bullet into the brain of the guy who thought this up. He probably wasn't planning to die. And any one who is planning to take his place will think twice about it.

We don't want to nuke them. We want to whack them.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[PurpleSage]

We don't want to nuke them. We want to whack them.
Absolutely.
The War on Terrorism is a guerrilla war, not one of those simple wars against a monolithic enemy.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh.. this passage is speaking about hell in the next life. And your point?

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a practicing Muslim, I think that whoever is responsible such an evil crime should be killed. I'd even do it myself. Just because you treat God as some sort of personal enemy, you expect genocide to be a solution?

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[fredrik70]

Go to Malaysia then, muslim country. Very nice and rather peaceful IMHO...

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[RexxFiend]

and the cheering during the gulf war when bagdad was having the shit bombed out of it was somehow morally right then was it?

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

Two World Trade Center Towers mysteriously missing from the New York skyline and a gaping hole in the Pentagon building is "believing what their media tells them"? Tell that to the thousands of innocent people who died in the planes and the blast. Tell that to the grieving families who will never get to see or be with their murdered fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers. What is your solution to this mass murder?

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

And Suddam was justified in invading another country? Was Saddam justified in allowing his army to rape and pillage? Did he think that the international community would not see his actions as a threat?

He's built his army again. Were the US not there, I suspect he'd have no compulsion not to go to Kuwait again...

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others.

On no? You could have fooled me.

In almost every city in Egypt, Palestine, Packistan, Iran, Iraq, and some other countries on the other side of the world, people were dancing in the streets, firing guns into the air, elebrating. "Bullseye" said a cab driver in Egypt to the media.

If they don't believe that, then they are doing an awful poor job of concealing that belief.

Those kamakazee pilots were driven by the same motivations that drove their Japanese brethren of WWII - religious fanaticism. I hope those that aided and abetted these fanatics, that gave them safe harbor, supported them through training and paid for their transportation to America so the cowardly acts of yesterday could take place, meet the same fate as those who helped the kamakazee pilots.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

"because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. "

tell it to the MASS movement of HAMAS and ISLAMIC JIHAD
that have done tenths of suicidel attacks
and have SHAIDS ready to suicide .

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

even Malaysia has its problems....ISA and Anwar Ibrahim for one, strict media censorship for another.Does anybody remember the "bohsia"/"bohjan" crap?? There is a conservative core that has been running the country for the past 20 years.
Check malaysiakini.com for the details..

I'm a malaysian and its sad for me to see the people running the goverment resort to imbecilic tactics and poses to resolves problems

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

These systems didn't prevent the church from being completely corrupt for large parts of its history (e.g. around 300-1400AD)

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[cholokoy]

Yes there are diferent kinds of muslims as there are Christians (this is just a comparisson and is not meant to portray anything else).

If these terrorists are later found to be Muslims, it is because they believe that they are fighting a good cause - from oppression of the western culture which is predominantly Christian and Jewish. Yes you are right the majority of Muslims will not act the same as the terrorists but you will only need a handful of them to exact the kind of horror we saw yesterday.

I have a lot of Muslim friends coming from a country in Southeast Asia but I am a Christian and witness firsthand how they are being oppressed as a people by government neglect which they translate as against their culture and religion. These are the seeds that can later on be molded by someone who use them for evil ways.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[SomePoorSchmuck]

yes, after 1600 years, Christianity has finally mellowed out from a megalomaniacal system of power to a big-hairdo consumerism.

the only difference is that you guys have a several-centuries head start on Islam. think of this as cosmic payback for the sins of your church fathers, and rest assured that three hundred years from now, when muslims rule the planet, they will be as liberatarian and materialistic as today's USA!

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[fredrik70]

Yes, I know about some of the problem, especially the media cecorship. It's however not one of these US-hating countries that most poeple seems to believe all muslim nations are

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[RexxFiend]

I`m not talking abouth the bombing - I`m talking about the cheering. While I agree that cheering this act of terrorism, with all the sickening news coverage it has had, is pretty bad, so is cheering the bombing of bagdad - its just the news coverage and the proximity to home (for americans) which brings home the horror of bombing and makes it less believable that someone could find this something to cheer about.
War is war, when your enemy gets bombed you cheer; you don`t get to see the sickening aftermath of the bombings.
Think about that the next time your country bombs the shit out of some city because its leaders didn`t do what they were told.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Da Masta]

I'm sure he's banned from far more...he just hasn't been attempting to go to countries other than Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Judging from the response from the aforementioned countries' statements, and whether or not it is proven Bin Laden had any connection, their policies are sure to change.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Da Masta]

Be careful to even call this a jihad! Jihad is holy war, faught between the willing. Innocent civilians including the defenceless, the clergy of any religion, women and children, among others are not to be harmed in anyway, and those who have done so have violated this. The crusades were a holy war, atleast for the muslims, where they were defending against opression for being muslim. This, on the other hand, is violence against a group percieved to be the enemy of by a group of disillusioned fanatics hiding under the guise of a religion. Don't insult Islam when you really want to insult just those who commit such dastardly acts.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Anonymous Coward]

>I would rather my neighbor be alive than 10 starving people somewhere else. Stupid Clinton helped wittle away our military, now we are going to have to be careful with our resources...

>take care

I am not your neighbour. Does that 'take care' apply to me too?

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Migelikor1]

Hey, dumbass, try to read my comments before replying. did i insult islam? no, i insulted the ignorance that makes people commit acts in its name. Religion in its ideal form is a set of guidelines to help people live good lives, but in some places, it's used as an excuse for war. I don't give a shit what religion the militant ignorant is, in fact, the comments of the religious right in america blaming the nonconformists, pagans, and libertarians for the attack are just as aweful, but let's face it. Beyond the catholics in ireland, there aren't a whole lot of developed countries with religious based warfare going on. I concede that i misused the word jihad, but the Koran DOES say that the word of the prophet may be spread with the sword. Add that to some people who are pissed off cause they're poor, and uneducated cuz their government sucks, and there is a formula for disaster. That's all i wanted to say, and say that i believe that it is ok to regard those perpetuating the above conditions as enemies. Fuck it. i appriciate the reply.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Da Masta]

did i insult islam? no, i insulted the ignorance that makes people commit acts in its name

By insulting the Jihad, you ARE insulting Islam. This is what you said originally:

The Jihad (holy war) is just like the Crusades or inquisition, repugnant practices performed by ignorant people under the auspice of religion.

In your reply to my comment, you did make amends, and I agree with just about everything you said subsequently except this:

I concede that i misused the word jihad, but the Koran DOES say that the word of the prophet may be spread with the sword.

Which ass did you pull this one out of? Jihad is not about spreading the word of Islam, it's about protecting your culture against those who physically attack it. Show me the line from the Quran which proves what you said and I'll withdraw my argument.

Re:PHOTOS from across the river. Taken 2 hours ago

[Anonymous Coward]

There sould be no space in that url

Ghosts?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was also thinking about the what-ifs of the towers being rebuilt. The one thing that came to mind to me: With a potential of 10s of thousands of deaths between those two buildings, today. Signs of ghosts will mostly certainly be present in the new towers. How long would the stigma of the deaths and roaming spirits in these new towers take before anyone would want to work there again?

Re: What Repurcussions

[knewter]

Pardon me, I must not have heard you right. You just told me that we need to respect the freedom of those suspected. Now, understand that the only people truly suspected are Bin Laden and his bunch as well as a few other known terrorist regimes. The call is for all of the intelligence agencies (CIA, MI6, Russia's agency) to work together and discover where the terrorists are. If there is a known terrorist group that is suspected of it, we treat them as if they did it.

They are terrorists. It's what they do.

Reason to suspect them. Anyway. As for the Arab troops that were said to be firing their guns in the air in celebration when they heard of it, we go over right now and teach them to never celebrate the loss of ten thousand innocent lives. Again, we have reason to suspect they had involvement in it, as they were celebrating the "victory", thereby taking sides.

Admittedly, I don't suggest (as some have) that we go nuking random parties. I do, however, suggest that we kill anyone and everyone that we can know (or come to know) to be involved in it that can't be taken prisoner (suicide bombers generally aren't taken prisoner, either). Then we send word to the Arab government that unless they get rid of those soldiers that would cheer for this, we end their country. Simple solution, and not very diplomatic. I would never believe that this would be the solution that those guys that get paid big bucks to make this kind of decision would make, but nonetheless, it's better than "respect the terrorist murdering pig-dogs' freedom" that I've heard so often.

This isn't about mere revenge. It's about justice. Do the crime, pay the time^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdie a horrible death.

Josh Adams
knewter

WHAT WOULD ENDER DO???

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, let's figure out who the "buggers" are. After that, ommediate and unrelenting retaliation. It worked for him.

Re:WHAT WOULD ENDER DO???

[Anonymous Coward]

Only until the next book.

Taliban is a product of US foriegn policy

[Anonymous Coward]

My prayers go out to those who have lost friends and relatives in this terrible tragedy..

While we think about this tragedy, lets not forget US's relationship to the perpetrators of these terrible acts against humanity.

How many people are aware that the Taliban is a product of US training rebel fighters in Afghanistan to take on the Soviet forces there? US funded these forces and trained them to be fighting machines so that Soviet Union and its allies in Asia such as India could be kept under check during the cold war era..

Before US aided these terrorists, they existed only as small, disconnected groups of militia..

Following the end of the cold war, these forces regrouped to face a new enemy - USA, who had by now stopped funding them.. US's change in foriegn policy towards these terrorist elements was hastened by events in the middle-east and west Asia.

Its time for US to take a stand against these terrorist elements across the world and not make use of them for furthering US's foriegn policy as it has done on numerous occassions before...Its time for the US government to realise that terrorists should not be used for whatever cause, whoever be the enemy..

"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"

Control of planes

[lovelace]

I was wondering, since autopilot has gotten so sophisticated, even to the point of being able to land planes, that what if the pilot had some way to put the plane into an autopilot mode where the destination could not be changed (or at the very least, not without entering a security code). Then any attempt to change the plane's destination would fail. I can see where this might be a bad idea sometimes, if the pilot needed to do something manually, but could the upside be that something like this today could never happen (or at least, be made much more difficult)?

Raise My Taxes

[Pinball Wizard]

I'm willing to sacrifice to help my country rebuild, and to be better prepared.

Anyone else?

Re:Raise My Taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

get real. are you fucked? three buildings collapse and it's the end of the world for you? i'm sure the big giant has many more buildings, yes.

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't care for the Enigma quote? Fine. Is there any other part of his post you disagree with, or are personal attacks your only ability?

Political Science

[Anonymous Coward]

Our action should follow the pattern described in Randy Newman's song "Political Science"!

Rebuild the Towers

[frostybean]

We should rebuild the towers exactly where they originally stood...but build them one story taller just to show that acts of terrorism, regardless of who the respnsible parties may be, will not bring down our country or the rest of the free world. Just a random thought... Also, to those who recommend carpet bombing the Middle East, you must realize that this is may be exactly what the terrorists want...to transform the war that exists in their minds into a real, full scale conventional war against the US by our many enemies in retaliation to our own semi-justified retaliatory attacks. Just another random thought. Let's also not forget whats been already mentioned: OKC was carried out be domestic terrorists...and it is still not known how many others besides McVeigh took part, despite what the media might tell you. It is a very real possibility that these same factions could be to blame. I just hope that Nostradamus quote doesn't come true...

Re:Rebuild the Towers

[Cairsten]

I agree completely. I think that the single biggest statement we can make as a nation would be to reconstruct what was destroyed today, bigger and better, and to have the WTC dominating the landscape of NYC again would be a wonderful thing.

Re:Rebuild the Towers

[ceresian2112]

I agree, and I'd donate money. ( i'd donate blood but i pass out.)

Re:Rebuild the Towers

[Cairsten]

M'eh.. blood's needed more, and frankly, money won't save a life. Yeah, that's a lecture, and I'm sorry, but I gave my pint today, and will give more, probably, in days to come... and I'm anaemic, and have that tendency to pass out, too. Please... if it's a choice between the two, the blood's needed more.

Re:Rebuild the Towers

[MikeBabcock]

Oh, and get the Japanese to help in their design so they're a little more structurally sound for unknown events ;-). Japanese buildings often sway by several meters at the tops during earthquakes, etc.

Re:PHOTOS from across the river. Taken 2 hours ago

[Anonymous Coward]

A working URL

http://community.webshots.com/album/21192612TpmwnB bJLa

future safeguards against airline hijacking

[dpletche]

I suspect we already have 90% of the pieces in place for fully automated takeoff, flight and landing of commercial airliners. I've wondered for years why we don't install a hijacking duress switch in the plane that would:
* Release a potent, fast-acting sleep gas
* Lock out all internal controls completely
* Autonomously land the plane at the nearest satisfactory airport, perhaps with rudimentary guidance from the nearest control tower

In any case, our antiquated flight telemetry and control systems should be improved along the way. It's surprising that we couldn't even be sure what had become of the missing planes, or which planes had crashed, until the smoke cleared.

I am still in shock, and my sympathies go out to those traumatized by this cruel tragedy. Let's all hope for brighter days ahead.

Re:future safeguards against airline hijacking

[Anonymous Coward]

So then the terrorists just take gas masks too. In fact, I've read one report that that's what the terrorists did on the flight that crashed in PA; they put on gas masks and then used a gas to knock out the crew/passengers. Dunno how accurate it is though.

Re:future safeguards against airline hijacking

[Desert Raven]

Wouldn't it be easier to just put an armored door between the cabin and the cockpit, and don't allow it to be opened while in flight.

Technological solutions have their place, but they aren't worth anything if we don't have the wisdom to take the simple precautions first.

Re:future safeguards against airline hijacking

[Anonymous Coward]

El Al, the Israeli airline currently implement this precaution for obvious reasons.

it's a 4 inch think piece of steel.

9-11-2001 = 9+11+3 = 23

[thm-1]

now who's responsible...

For Pete's Sake!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information.

Will you shut up already!

ground control to override the controls

[DiveX]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Than all you need is a terrorist cell to overrun that site and bring down every plane in range.

It isn't the organization that wants hundreds of bombs that scares me..it is the group that just wants one.

Intelligence Agencies are shit and liars

[Garry Anderson]

APPARENTLY, the story goes - the terrorists used sophisticated encryption measures and the US intelligence agencies are under-funded so don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists.

A load of bollocks - this is propaganda by the agencies to divert attention away from themselves.

They have NO IDEA about encryption measures - now have they?

Come on - spend five seconds to think about it.

Terrorists know they are being looked for by Carnivore and will get around it by other measures.

I have always said - terrorism is just the excuse they use, to raise funds for Carnivore - to spy on the people.

Use your brains - if you have got any.

"A man that would sacrifice his freedom for security deserves neither." - Thomas Jefferson.

P.S. The authorities use trademarks as excuse to muffle speech on the Internet. Please visit WIPO.org.uk

MOD THIS STUPID ANTI-KATZ RANT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

MODERATORS, MOD THE ABOVE POST DOWN SO OTHER, MORE PRODUCTIVE POSTS CAN BE NOTICED.

A lot of people have things to say, and the active discussions posted thus far have been filled. I don't necessarily care what John Katz has to say-- he could have posted a recipe for Potato Pancakes for all it matters-- but he's providing an active discussion category that people are using.

PS I actually felt that Katz's post was poignant, and it accurately reflects what I (and a lot of NYC folks) are feeling right now. Either way, this isn't a time for Katz bitching.

Ghandi said,

[Moray_Reef]

'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.'

M.K. Ghandi

This following is only a sig.

The Enemy Within...

[humblefar]

I am not blaming anyone or seeking revenge because
I am a Christian. My prayers are with all hurt souls in New York and Washington. I cannot though
keep silent for at least the surface reasons for
that tragedy. I will not dig deeper now, I only
wish people retain their reason and do it later.
My questions are:
1) Why did US make Afganistan a safe heaven for
terorists. The cynical US government hopes to
destabilize Russia and Central Asia
and actualy protects the taliban lawlessness.
2) What are the US troops doing in Kosovo
protecting yet another group of terorists
instead of dealing with the real threats.
3) What is the US inteligence doing and why is
Bush so peocupied with chasing russian
diplomats rather than addressing the urgent
needs of security.
4) Why are our planes spying right at the
Chineese border instead of protecting us.
5) Why is our media keeping us on the dark
about so many issues.

Have we lost our faith in honesty, inteligence,
and hard work? Why are so many people dreaming
about becoming rich through lies, "stings",
"hits", etc. Is this the American dream?
Aren't we stretching ourselves a bit too tin?
Aren't we being way too materialistic, arogant
and cinical?
Are we going to wake up or continue down the
slippery slope?

God bless you all.

*OUCH*

[MxTxL]

Wow, that was a scathing slight! OH NO, he won't respond to me! The guy who called me a cunt and thinks my family should be shot think **I** am a troll. Look in the mirror, buddy.

No, I don't think the strong should prey on the weak. I think the strong should protect the weak. In this case, the strong is our government, and the weak is our people. The only way our people can be protected is to remove those who would harm us.

If you want to go back to the school yard example: innocent people are the wimpy kid, terrorists are the bully, and the government is our big brother who's gonna kick the bullies ass. This is how peace is maintained at school, and as unfortunate as it is, history has shown that this is how peace is maintained in the world.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the econmic state of most of those countries, then compare it to America. The people who did this made a big mistake and they will suffer severe consequences. The U.S may have enemies but we also have quite a few powerful allies, in fact our allies are the other most powerful nations in the world and they will back us.

if only stupid couldn't breed

[Anonymous Coward]

you sir, are obtuse.

This has *nothing* to do with religion

[ChaoticCoyote]

Suicide is a violation of Islamic law as defined by the Koran. These terrorists are not representative of Islam. As Tom Clancy put it on CNN just now -- they *are* fools.

Do you realize what kind of hell on Earth you are advocating when you ignorantly lump people into illogical categories? Such limited "thinking" is the root of sectarian violence around the world, people being murdered simply because they are atached to an artificial label: Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Arab, Black or White.

Those of you who declare "jihad" on all of Islam -- you are no better than the animals who murdered the innocent this morning. Go crawl back in your hole, while the rest of us look for light at the end of the tunnel...

Re:This has *nothing* to do with religion

[equalize]

I agree with your first part and your second part.

But your third part is just absurd. The people who orchestrated and committed these atrocities are a lot worse in my mind than people who are just extremely ignorant on an issue. The people who snicker at an Arab, or look a Muslim a bit funny tomorrow should have to pay with social consequences, those who advocate violence against all of a religion will be logically torn apart, and those who commit violence against those of a religion (lets hope there are _no_ cases like this) should be taken care of by the laws that exist (Jail, fines, etc...). The people who perpetrated today's activates should be dealt with in a much harsher manner (death).

Towers rebuilding? No, thanks

[nashira]

Well, if that's the argument you have for rebuilding the towers, then I don't think they should be rebuilt.

Why?

Well, you say the're the sign of this country's strength. And what is that strenght? The USA may be one of the most technologically advanced countries in the planet, but the social costs of that are tremendous: kids killing classmates, mass murderers, lack of self-conscience and direction, emptiness, deception. In other words, the costs of modernity are greater than what the news show each day on TV. It's not only about buildings being destroyed or plane crashes. To me, those are the least important things about this tragedy.

Maybe the towers should be left that way. The terrorist's actions are not USA's weakness either. Maybe we should start listening to other sources of information, like sociologists, philosophers and other intellectuals, instead of the usual newspeople and economists and politicians. Maybe we should not ask why or who did this, but just critically and deeply observe and analize the state of things.

Maybe this sounds extremist, but if we rebuild the towers expecting that when people look at them will feel relief, we'll be reinforcing the ideal of "we're the greatest nation" with two powerful newly reconstructed towers, icons of blind capitalism.

I feel that many people think that as long as we have that (the towers, the president, the army, the technology), we'll have nothing to worry about.

That's the scariest thing of all to me.

Re:Towers rebuilding? No, thanks

[humblefar]

I agree with you on the part that there is little
sence in rebuilding the towers. But do not agree
that advancement of knowledge is to blame for
the social ills. Rather it is the lack of it.
The lack of moral is what makes a destructive
tool out of anything - be it a plain or a stone.
Returning to the stone killing is not the solution
to plain attaks. Hope this helps

do NOT retaliate

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

You can only make things worse

these people were not criminals, criminals do not sacrifice their own lives.

A lot of people were prepared to give their lives in trade for a chance to strike a blow to America. Consider that before you retaliate. You cannot fight those people, and that is perhaps a good thing. America is not under attack, people are trying to tell something to it.

Re:do NOT retaliate

[Cairsten]

They sent the message clearly. But we have a message of our own, and what happens as a result of their choice will, if there is any justice in the world, be visited upon their heads, as it should be. Thousands of people did not wake up this morning and decide it was a good day to die for the sake of someone's message to America. The people who made the choice that a message was worth that many lives should be hunted down... since it never is the leaders who kill themselves... and, personally, I'd like them killed and their ashes turned over to the families of the victims for disposal however they see fit.

MOD THIS DOWN!

[Anonymous Coward]

There is useful information on this thread-- some very important, such as emergency contact #s. Mod this post down, chrissakes, so that information won't be diluted.

Bust Katz's ass tomorrow, or some other day. Jesus.

How the Buildings fell

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it bother anyone else that the buildings fell the way they did. A building that tall falling straight down after a random hit explosion from a plane. I have spoken with several people people who do demolitions for a living and they tend to agree that the collapses looked almost like controlled detonations.

Encryption exportation

[mlheur]

Do you think that restricting the exportation of encryption algorithms, and the number of bits used would have prevented such an attack? Do you think that Americans are the only ones who know how to create and use encryption unless they give others the tools to use it?

I dont think encryption use or funding for/against it is a reasonable factor against those 50,000 lives.

Re:Encryption exportation

[Dwonis]

I dont think encryption use or funding for/against it is a reasonable factor against those 50,000 lives.

Exactly. Let's spend our resources doing something that will actually work! I could write an RSA implementation in a day, and so could anyone else.

A few thoughts

[belgar]

I've spent almost my whole day digging through stuff online, reading about what happened in New York today (fortunately, I work for a newspaper, so I'm a little justified). I live in Canada. I'm not American. I didn't have any friends in the Towers, or the Pentagon, or (afaik) on the planes that were involved.

But I've been just about on the verge of tears for most of the day. Why? The number of lives lost. The parents who won't come home tonight. The kids who won't come home tonight. The numbers that are being bandied about are so overwhelming.

I used to work as a volunteer ambulance attendant in our rural community. I've see the shock and the grief that a single motor vehicle accident can cause. I can't fathom having to assist those who will have to live, in one personal way or another, with what happened today.

I've never been a JonKatz fan. I probably still won't be. I was even prepared to slag Jon for this post, before I even read it. But I don't have to.

Thanks Jon, for giving us a little insight into the perspective from someone who is living part of the nightmare of not knowing where a lived one is.

Incidentally, as one other poster already mentioned, all you Americans can lean on your northern neighbours. I just talked to my folks in Vancouver, and they have all these people whose planes were re-routed there now, and they're stranded, at least until tomorrow. Total passengers? About 6,000. They've been putting out calls to see if locals can put these passengers up in their houses -- and they've had over 1000 responses already. We also have calls for blood donations going out, and we're going to try and get one going locally here asap.

There's lots of folks outside your borders who are praying for you and thinking about you, America. Anything you need, just yell.

Fuck Who?

[feed_me_cereal]

Who hates you? Could you give me a list of names? What is it you think is wrong with people who are rascist against americans? You'll find its the same thing wrong with blaming a race of people for hating you when you have no fucking clue which individuals hate you and which individuals are just like me. I agree with you in half: anyone celebrating right now can rot in hell forever, but anyone who isn't should be left the fuck alone. And until we know who's who, we shouldn't pass judgement.

Uhm...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is NOT News for Nerds, nor is it Stuff that matters in the least bit.

dude - what are you saying?

[spiny norman]

strike out madly in every direction - kill more innocent people (and maybe one or two guilty ones) - and this will somehow make the situation *better*??

and then get ready to bend over and accept anal probes round the clock, and total police surviellance so that we can protect ourselves from terrorism?

neither of these approaches will have the slightest effect on the real causes of all this horror.

americans need to stop and take a good look at how much they are hated for supporting terrorism all over the world for decades. read noam chomsky for christ's sake - or ask the east timorese, or the guatemalans, chileans, etc. etc. whose children and grandparents and lovers have been blown to bits or tortured by people trained, managed, and fucking paid for by the complacent taxpayers of the USA.

the question is, how can we restore the world to balance?

If our response is just about revenge, then we're in for a great bloodbath, to make the wars of the 20th century look a parlor game - but haven't we already explored this option? can't we move on to something a little more mature?

like for starters, can we back off on driving 9-10ths of the world into poverty to meet the draconian demands of bankers - didn't jesus warn us about those creeps?

this is a wake-up call - the last chance to ask ourselves why the world is in such turmoil. is it all really just about money? religion? what is the big fucking problem that we can't work out people?

Re:dude - what are you saying?

[MxTxL]

I know, I was so blind suggesting that we do something, you had the answer all the time: let's PRAY!

Yeah, that's the ticket. Maybe if we pray a little bit, God will make the bad guys stop.

No, that probably won't work... hmm... let's have some peace talks. Yeah, I bet that would do it. We have some peace talks, come up with a new peace accord and PUFF! all our problems are solved!

No, that probably won't work either. Hmmm... let's apologize for 2000 years of ethnic strife and religious fighting. Yeah, we can prostrate ourselves before these people, tell them that we are sorry for things that we caused 2000 years ago (blindly ignoring the fact that our country isn't even 300 years old). Yes, that will do it! Maybe we'll look so pathetic, that they will stop.

Well, probably not. How about we send them AID!! Yeah, ship them money! If we start giving bin Laden a bunch of money, if we buy him off he'll stop. That could actually work! Well, at least until we STOP paying a FUCKING MURDERER.

Well, we could kill him.... Make him bleed a little bit. We descend on him like the wrath of God and send him to hell where he belongs. Maybe he'll stop then. Yeah, he will, but shoot, that would be politically uncorrect. We CAN'T just going around killing people. We can't bring mass murders to justice without a trial.

Well, mother-fuck! I'm out of ideas, what do YOU propose we do?

A world based on hatred?

[Anonymous Coward]

After looking through the hundreds of comments on this disaster I can't help but feel scared, not at the fact that this was allowed to happen, but simply at some people's reaction to it. There are a number of intelligent, well thought-out, responses, but they seem to be lost in a sea of hatred.

The majority of posts have seemed to ask for two things, and increase in security and/or massive retaliation. I agree that the people who committed this atrocity should be found and dealt with; however, I do not really believe this is likely to happen. If these people managed to pull something this large off without alerting US intelligence it seems unlikely that the true victims will be caught. I'm sure after a while some scapegoat group will have to be found to appease the American public. Are people really that desperate for some form of bloodshed?

As for the security concerns, does everyone really believe that increasing security will stop terrorism of this scale? Surely no matter what measures you take these incidents cannot be avoided no matter what the method.

In my opinion the physical damage these attacks have inflicted onto the country is minimal compared to the damage that is going to be caused by the resulting madness.

I feel deeply sorry for the victims and their families/friends, but I feel more sorrow for the country as a whole.

No one will read this, but . . .

[Tam-Lin]

Gods, where to start. I don't even know how to explain all I'm feeling, let alone . . . I know I'm not thinking completely clearly. Perhaps a chronology will be best place to start . . .

Twenty minutes before 9, give or take: a passenger jet is crashed into one tower of the World Trade Center. About 9:00, a second passenger jet is crashed into the other tower. This was caught on film, as there were news crews filming the other tower. People apparently jumped out of the towers to avoid burning to death, choosing a different way to die. An hour and a half later or so, the two towers collapsed. I've heard estimates that 20,000 or more people may have been killed, not including those in the planes. A bit later, another passenger jet was crashed into the Pentagon, and a forth plane, which was being taken to a target unknown, crashed/was shot down outside of Pittsburgh. Apparently a fifth plane crashed as well, though no one's revealed where, yet. This was almost certainly a coordinated act of terrorism, the largest act in history, and even that's a guess. Nobody knows who's responsible; though suspicion of course falls on radical Muslims, those who are more than willing to die if they can take their enemies with them. And I agree, while not liking the fact that I do; I hate making snap, uninformed judgements, especially those based on prejudice. And that seems to sum up everything; I'm just really conflicted about this.

I'm horrified, but from a distance; I can't say I'm that surprised, as I've been expecting something like this for years. We as a country have pissed off so many people and countries over the past thirty, fourty, fifty years, not including those who hate us over religion. And I can understand their anger, I think, understand their desire to strike back in the only way they can, and I can't hate them for that, horrified though I am. Hate the sin, love the sinner, I suppose . . .

And I fear the future. Fear we will strike back for revenge, not justice; fear that we will strike back before we really know what happened, hurt innocent people (and those who hate us, but had no role in this attack, are innocents); fear that this attack will be used as an excuse to curtail our freedoms; fear that people may take "justice" into their own hands, lynching those who share the belief or race of those responsible; distaste at the orgy of news coverage this is going to generate, for who knows how long.

But there's hope, too. Hope that maybe this will force America, and our leaders, to get our collective head our of our ass, and realize we're part of a world of nations, not a dictator. Hope that this will maybe make people take fundamentalism of all stripes a bit more seriously.

Ond, on ther personal scale, things I'msort of ashamed to write about. There's fear this could push the world economy over the edge, into recession, even though the whole thing is a figment of our imagination. And there's hope that this will put an end to the missle defense system that various people have been yammering about for years, and which, as has been so ably demonstrated today, would be very easy to circumvent, assuming we can even get the bloody thing to work.

Gotta say it

[sacrilicious]

I feel it is in bad taste to suggest that the deaths of CEOs/CTOs/CFOs of various companies is any more horrific or noteworthy than the deaths of codewriters, bricklayers, piano players, or anyone else.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

Exactly my point. Every one of those wars was fundamentally limited in such a way that they could not be pursued in full. I also think that most of them were unjustified actions which we should not have been involved in, and that military action was not the solution. But likewise, there is NEVER justification for terrorism against civilians, no matter what the cause. It is an endless form of war which can only bring degradation to both perpetrator and victim, and must be stopped. With the death toll apparently running into the tens of thousands, this is not some potshot carbomb - many times more people have died today than in Pearl Harbor, and ALL of them were civilians. It will not go unpunished. The terrorists may have thought they were at war with the US already, but it's high time we should show them what it is like when WE think we're at war with somone.

We DID pursue the war in full in Japan, the country that institutionalized suicide attacks, and we won - completely, and at great cost. We invaded, and we occupied, and we rebuilt things from the ground up. We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point, but instead helped them create a peaceful and prosperous nation instead. The Japanese and these terrorists may not have thought they had anything left to lose, but they're wrong. They can lose their reason and will to fight.

cryptochrome

Kabul is under attack

[shiva600]

CNN just brought in the news that kabul is under heavy attack.

Not that i thought GWB would *really* *think* about any other solution. This is one sad day.

Re:Kabul is under attack

[minddog]

So i heard too, american cruise missiles...

I have a bad thought that this is just the beginning...

Re:Kabul is under attack

[minddog]

On the news they changed the fact around, saying Kabul Explosions are not US attacks...

I'm leary of what bush is going to do!

Re:Kabul is under attack

[frknfrk]

you heard wrong. the afghan rebel group northern light has claimed responsibility for the bombings there (kabul).

Cruise missiles just hit Kabul

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like the crisis is escalating.

Re:Hang first make questions latter-Afghanistan.

[Anonymous Coward]

There's already bombing in Afghanistan.

Check CNN.

technology and disaster

[{tele}machus_*1]

I've been using email and a web-enabled cell phone to keep in touch with my friends in NYC. So far they are all safe. I am thankful that I don't have to rely on the telephone, because I haven't been able to call anyone in NYC all day (all circuits are busy). I have been able to send and check email from my cell phone and that is how I made sure that friends of mine that might have been near the towers were safe.

Yep ! France...

[The Fanfan]

Never forget those damn bloody French ! Devious guys, those French if any and up to the hilt on clandestine biological warfare with all those smelly cheeses.

Down with Roquefort !

Business vs. Terrorism

[Incongruity]

This is bull-shit. When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good. Since that time, DEA agents have led charmed lives. In many cases DEA agents are in peril, but only live because the Druggies know better than to touch a DEA agent for the repercussions. In the same light, it is clear to me and should be to everyone else that a serious strike against ALL possible/suspected terrorist organizations will send a similar message.

As much as I wish we could do *something* that would have the effect which you intend, I must point out one serious flaw in your logic. The drug cartels are more or less businesses and their main business is the trafficking of narcotics. As much as DEA agents may get in the way at times, killing them is not the main mission of the drug cartels.

Terrorists, on the other hand have one mission and one mission only: terror. They don't have an economic mission. They have a psychological and a hate based mission. They will likely not be dissuaded by terror tactics as the cartel members were, according to your post. Actions of the sort you suggest would, unfortunately, only spur the hate and the violence...especially if we fail to actually get the persons who masterminded these terrible attacks.

Foreign Policy

[the eric conspiracy]

One of the points oft neglected is that US foreign policy in the Mideast is generally driven by it's need to import vast quantities of oil to feed what an economy that is the most wasteful consumer of energy in the world. Scientific American published an article as few years ago claiming that the real cost of oil in the US is something like $2 a gallon higher than appears at the pump if you factor in the defense costs necessary to maintain a dominant military presence in the Middle East.

Well, add to that the costs in human life and property lost to terrorism - in NY, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Africa.

Until we gat a sane energy policy that includes realization of the political, economic and environmental costs associated with the seemingly insane need for everyone to have gigantic SUV's in their driveway, we will continue to pay, and pay very dearly for our insane, unsustainable economic structure.

Re: unsure of how to behave-gas prices

[Anonymous Coward]

The price of gas is going up to $4.00 a gallon.

You don't respond to a Day of Infamy with a trial.

[The Breeze]

No "reasoned response"
No court trial.
This is war.
This is slaughter on a scale greater than Pearl Harbor, against millitary and civilian targets.
The only recourse is to kill the people behind it, and those who would give them shelter.

We are at war. I do not wish to repeat Munich. This is not an act of "terrorism", this is an act of war, and it cannot be negotiated away.

Bringing new meaning to the term Slashdotted...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, we have a fine collection of very able programmers and the like here, how 'bout a little demonstration, aimed at any and all web sites promoting terrorism in all its forms?

Nothing organized, nothing planned, just give a little back to the society that has nurtured (most of) us.

Geeks of the Internet, Unite!

They have to be rebuild! National Pride.

[Bushwacker]

Forgetting all the wills and emotions of the common citizen, think about how the "US GOVT" will react to this. As Bush made clear in his address from Louisiana, The US at large, at least from the governments perspective cannot do anything less. Failing to rebuild the towers would not only result in a major relocation of much of US/International trade, but it would also symbolize that the enemy has won. We are America, people. We don't give up and we never back down. I'm sure that the powers that be will be thinking about how to accomplish this massive rebuild effort soon if they haven't at least briefly pondered it already. The descrution of the World Trade Center towers and part of the Pentagon are a powerful display of hate and agression on a massive scale. The US people aren't going to let this pass under the mat- we will instead go under the mat after it and hunt it down.

So Say a prayer tonight for all the thousands of people in New York who died this day, 9/11/01 or at least think of what happened there. This event will be in the history books someday. Everyone alive today unfortunately has experienced it first hand!

A few thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

i'd like to present a few thoughts of mine about today's attacks on the United States in relation to the main questions that are being/will be asked:

a) who is behind this attack on the US and
what's their motive?
b) are the security checks at national airports
as weak as one might now think after at least
four airlines have been hijacked almost
simultaneously?
c) how will retaliation take place?
d) what major changes brings this terrible
and totally shocking event with it?

a) the scale of today's terrorist attacks and the apparent sophistication with which they have been executed surely makes some points very clear: there are not many terrorist groups out there who are able to produce something of that scale and intelligence services around the world and especially in the US have a good chance of pinning them down.

whoever is responsible for this attack, they must have had a motive. in my opinion, the only possible motive in this case is retaliation for something the US has done to them or to the people they represent. no human being with the slightest bit of common sense can expect to impose a specific behavior (like "stop supporting Israel or further attacks are going to take place" or "quit attacking Iraq or else...") on the USA by executing such attacks. therefore, it can only be grounded on retaliation.

b) a central question regarding the hijacking of the planes will be: how could the hijackers get weapons around the security checks on all airports? i have doubts about whether the hijackers really were armed when they hijacked the planes. this may sound silly, but regard it from a planning point of view: in order to make all the concerted attacks work, you have to make *absolutely* sure that none of the hijackers gets identified as such before the plane takes off. because once would have become clear to the authorities that a plane should have been hijacked, chances are that the hijackers of the other planes got identified too, making the whole plan of a concerted terrorist attack go bust. so either you must have find a bullet proof way to take weapons onto a plane or there were simply no weapons involved. if it's possible to securely separate the cockpit from the rest of the plane so that no one can enter it from the outside, then you do only need a very few people who don't even need to be armed to hijack a plane. you could simply use psychology as your weapon (like telling passengers: "if you don't do as we say, we are going to crash this plane"). this could explain why the fourth hijacked plane apparently didn't reach its intended goal (maybe the White House). maybe passengers knew by then about the other crashes and they knew that their plane was about to crash in any case. this could have given them the self-assertion to hinder the hijackers from crashing the plane wherever they initially had in mind. (another possibily might be that the plane was shut down by the US military.)

in any case, i seriously doubt that security could be so weak at the airports involved to make it look so easy to get weapons onto a plane.

c) retaliation will, of course, take place. and, of course, it will not exclusively take place in the courts. military force will be used, there is no question about that. but it will take place over a longer period of time. there will be no big bang one time retaliation but rather a multitude of different attacks against one or more terrorist groups that are to be found responsible for the attacks.

d) overall security at the places involved will certainly increase. but on a greater scale, the effect of today's events will (hopefully) be that the democracies of the free world will tighten their (intelligence and overall) efforts to avoid such attacks in the future, leading to a much more intense cooperation between them in the fight against terrorism, from which all of us will benefit.

the most important thing to do in response to today's events is to show the world that terrorism can never and will never prevail and that each terrorist attack does only reinforce democracy in its being and unite all us people from the free world in the fight against the terror.

this is certainly one of the darkest days in the history of the USA and the other democracies around the globe but let us show the terrorists all over the world that their means are doing nothing than to reinforce ourselves in our societies and in our freedom.

my sincerest feelings are with all victims of today's attacks. may God be with them.

Survivability

[henley]

The towers were specifically built to withstand a direct hit from a 707, which was the largest plane at the time of construction. Whether or not it they actually would have withstood such a hit is unknown, of course.

With all due deference to your inside knowledge, Hogwash.

The building was hit by a 767. Taking the first google'd link (http://www.sasflightops.com/fleet/767_general.htm ) we see it has a max all-up weight of 185 metric tons.

A 707 (see here) has a takeoff weight of 150 tonnes.

Both of these are large lumps of metal and jet fuel moving at high velocity. Given the failure mode of the buildings, and the time to do so under a direct hit, I don't think 30 tonnes would have made a hell of a lot of difference.

To any building.

Re:Survivability

[aozilla]

Like I said, they were supposed to withstand such a hit. Whether or not they would have can only be speculated.

Re:Survivability

[Anonymous Coward]

The buildings did withstand the hit. Indeed they stood for better than an hour. The cause of the collapse was the fire which weakened the upper floors. When the structure above the crash point failed the floor was subject to a dynamic load which it could not withstand. By analogy it's possible to design a box on which you can set a bowling ball carefully. It's another thing to design a box which can have a bowling ball dropped on it, even from a short height.

Good thing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing we have Carnivore, anti-terrorism laws, crypto export regulations, anti-hacking laws, etc to stop terrorism. I mean, someone could take out the World Trade Center or even the Pentagon otherwise! ...oh wait...

How are we prepared?

[stubob]

"We are both shocked and oddly prepared. Sci-fi and other forms of popular culture have been preparing us for this kind of Techno-Armageddon for years. Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people. We've never seen anything like it, yet in a strange way we have thought of it for years."

So showing NYC getting hit by a tidal wave will somehow prepare us for a catastrophic attack that kills thousands? Yes, we may have thought about it for years but almost in a comical light. "Haha, lookit that. That couldn't ever actually happen." But when I saw the video of the second plane hitting the tower I immediately thought of Deep Impact. So what that sci-fi has been preparing us for this possibility? Are we now just supposed to say "Told you so" and act like there was never a building there?

Let me drop a pair of hundred story buildings on you, Jon and we'll see how "oddly prepared" you are. At least show some compassion for the hundreds of thousands who have lost loved ones today.

Give me a break, Jon

[WillSeattle]

Sheesh, you're not even a vet. I am, I'm subject to callup as a Sargeant.

And, in case you missed the news: no technology was used in this attack.

Yup. That's right. It wasn't cyberterrorists, or geek crackers, or script kiddies. They didn't use sophisticated technology.

They
Just
Flew
Planes
Into
Buildings

How low tech do you need to be? This is WWII tactics!

Now, would you stop posting and let someone who knows what he's talking about post? Someone with real experience? I don't mean me, I mean anyone but you.

On this day I don't need your carp, Jon.

Revenge is swift...

[Toshio]

This is completely unverified

I guess the question of revenge is about to be settled. The spiral of violence will now probably continue, as there are unverified reports coming from Kabul (Afghanistan) of explosions.

As Afghanistans could set them off themselves (let's just call it unbounded joy) this might be a duck, but is Tomohawks caused it, then it's another story. Then I would demand an answer from each and every intelegence agency how can define with such certainty who is responsible for these acts of violence in less than a day, and failed to notice the warning signs at the time when this was still in preparation. This wasn't some unaccountable madman having a bad day. This was essentialy preplaned and premedidated.

If someone decided that person XY is guilty and the country he was last seen in should be bombed, where is at least a shred of evidence? You don't need one?
Ok, quiz question: Who was found guilty of Oklahoma City bombing?
Quiz quistion for bonus points: Is there evidence needed in order to commit outside agression on other country?

Related to response to my thoughts under different article:
Do you think that attacks (seen as random and FUD related) on different countries that COULD be responsible generate more friends or more enemies. I would think that something gets punished for something he didn't do he will just do it after being finished with. Whay waste the good punishment.

Hipothetical question on SAT might be: One country sponsored terrorist act. Three countries (including the perpetrator)get indiscriminately punished for this. How many countries will have more than 50% willingness of becoming your friends?

1. Now is time for the USA to stand with its friends and clearly identify its enemies
2. None
3. One
4. Two
5. Three

Put it on poll and think about the results of USA current foreign policy

Amen Katz

[panic911]

"All around New York City, psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal with kids whose parents aren't coming home."

Wow, what a powerful sentence...

I can't think of any time that I have seen a disaster this huge in the states. Truly an unfortunate historical day.

How could the ATC be so careless?

[shankark]

Its strange to note that while the bizarre movements of two flights were being monitored, it didn't strike as odd to the guys at the ATC. I mean, here's one plane that does a volte-face and heads towards Manhattan, while the ATC just silently watches by. Whats even more astonishing is that they had a whole 20 minutes before another of the planes was heading towards NYC. What on earth were they thinking?

Re:How could the ATC be so careless?

[haus]

OK, quick question hot shot. If you are sitting in Regional ATC center in NY and you notice a flight has turned off its transponder [hence there is no identifier of who it is on your status screen] and not responding to radio contact, flying at a suspicious speed and altitude, eventually going beneath radar. You then receive a report that a plane has collided into the WTC. Now there is another flight is behaving in a similar matter, what are you supposed to do in the next 18 minutes? Call the maintenance room at the WTC, odds are they are fairly busy. How about the maintenance room at the Statute of Liberty? That would have made a good target, with there remaining 13 minutes they could have made a 200 foot sign that read, ?please do not fly into me?. Or call the Air Force, lets assume that they could get a fighter scrambled from a nearby New Jersey air force base. For the sake of argument 3 minutes for the Air Force commander to be convinced that the person calling is not a crackpot, 6 minutes for a fighter with live missiles to get off the ground and pointed in the right direction another 4 to locate and identify the rouge aircraft. Just enough time left to pump a couple of missiles into the commercial airlines so that the burning hulk can fall randomly into Manhattan, big improvement.

Re:How could the ATC be so careless?

[Bernal KC]

Yeah, that does sound far-fetched.
But I bet that level of coordination becomes expected now.
And it should be.

quote from the news

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is a tragedy the likes of which the American people have not seen since Pearl Harbor."

Come on, the movie wasn't *that* bad.

First, we nuke Afghanistan...

[dmoen]

By "retaliate", I assume you mean that the U.S. should drop some bombs and kill a lot of innocent civilians, thereby radicalizing the surrounding population and generating a lot of new terrorists willing to die for their cause. That's how the U.S. got into this mess in the first place!

The Nuremburg trials are a much better model for how this situation should be dealt with. The individuals responsible need to be identified, brought to the U.S. (with as few civilian casualties as is humanly possible), and given a trial that is seen to be fair by the world at large. Alternatively, the trial could be held in a neutral country. This course is a lot more difficult to follow than simply dropping a few nukes on some random Arab countries--for one thing, in the worst case, some U.S. soldiers might die--but it's the right thing to do.

Doug Moen

Re:First, we nuke Afghanistan...

[datarat]

Sad that you think that was the suggestion.

Odd that you should bring up Nuremburg, tho. I seem to remember a rather bloody war that ended in a flash of light before we could bring these men to justice.

I suppose that means that YOU believe there will be a long, bloody conflict ahead.

Recent Events

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend sent this to our city's daily newspaper - I thought it would fit here too.

I woke up this morning to a phone call about the World Trade towers going down. I got in touch with my friends in New York and made sure that they were okay. They are still here but so many others are gone. I find myself deeply saddened and yet unsurprised at the magnitude of this assault. It was so horrible to hear of people jumping out of the 78th story trying to save their lives. The list of atrocities goes on and on. The natural reaction in any human would be a desire to strike back. This scares me even more.
I am concerned that people will become so obsessed with the idea of revenge that they won't stop to ask the really important questions about why this happened. The people who hijacked those planes were on a suicide mission. What is so important to them that they were willing to give their lives to make this statement? What has our own government done to contribute to the events leading up to this mass destruction? People are outraged at the loss of innocent lives yet who among us is really innocent when we support the strong armed tactics of our govenrment. We support it actively in our anger and our intolerance. We support it by casting our votes or by not casting them. We support it by choosing to be uninformed or blind. We support it by staying quiet. And, we refuse to take responsibility for our support. Truly, I am ashamed. The deaths of all of those people are not just on the shoulders of the terrorists, but should lay heavy on all our hearts. I believe that we allowed and invited this action with our arrogance. I hope for a wake up call but I suspect we will regress to a more primitive mentality, one of violence.
Perhaps I will be surprised? I am open to the possiblity because I believe that we are capable of compassion and growth and intelligent leaps in consciousness. If I didn't hold fast to these beliefs I don't think I could get out of bed in the morning. My prayers go to the people who have lost loved ones in this tragedy.

Clancy's solution

[Von Rex]

I used to live in New York. I've spent a few afternoons in the World Trade Center. My wife used to work in an office building directly across the street from it. Sometimes I'd accompany her and bum around in the immediate vicinity while she worked.

It's hard to get across how large they are, and how many people are in them. You see the twin towers in pictures surrounded by what looks like half-pint buildings, but those buildings are actually skyscrapers the equal of any found elsewhere. It is Manhattan, after all, the capital of the planet in many ways. But the World Trade Center was so much huger it made those other skyscrapers look puny. It was like a sci-fi concept, a city in a tower. So many dead people I can hardly bear thinking about it.

A few disjointed points:

1) Who did this? It's very peculiar. They would have needed inside help to pilot the planes and get weapons on board. These were domestic American flights after all, and they hijacked four at once. This seems beyond the ability of a "death to infidels" yahoo, even Bin Laden. Look at how clumsy the first bombing was, with the rental van. It could be Bin Laden, but if it is, this elevates him to the status of a true supervillain. Like a comic book or action movie character, he'd have the ability to bypass any security system with ease.

Supporting this theory is the fact that only religous lunatics do suicide bombing attacks. You didn't see Timothy McVeigh sticking around to enter paradise. Also, Bin Laden did attack the World Trade Center before. But still, this seems so much beyond anything he's previously done, or anyone has previously done, I have large doubts.

If not a terrorist, then a government. But what government would do such a thing, knowing it's a declaration of war? The US will certainly retaliate lethally against any nation that is behind this, count on it. So I really don't know what to think.

2) What was the destination of the fourth plane? Why does everyone keep saying Camp David? Look it up on a map, that plane was heading straight for Washington. Yes, the target could have been Camp David, but why are they ruling out other targets? I would have aimed straight for the Capitol myself, just like in that Tom Clancy novel.

3) Speaking of Tom Clancy, the one book I've read by him, and probably the only book of his I'll ever read, is indeed the relevant book. Can't remember it's name, but it's the one where Japan goes to war with the US. After Japan's defeat, a frustrated Japanese-American pilot flies his fully fueled commercial jet airliner straight into the Capitol during Inauguration Night, killing the newly elected President and virtually all of Congress. The only surivor is the new vice-President, former National Security Advisor Jack Ryan...

It's a cheesier than hell cliffhanger ending, a crude "buy my next book and find out what happens" ploy that would be embarassing even for a pulp serial, but it is an interesting concept. I remember reading it and thinking, "Wow, why doesn't somebody ever do that? What a great idea for a terrorist". Still, even Clancy didn't conceive of four hijackings at once. This day is so strange, it really does make action movies seem plausible. Never had that feeling before.

My wife read the next book, where Jack Ryan assumes the Presidency. She said the first thing he did is immediately repeal Ford's executive order prohibiting assassinations by the American government. He dismissed it as a piece of paper signed by a guy who was never elected and set out to kill everyone involved with the attack. I have to admit, I hope Bush does the same.

Children

[Xouba]

>psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal
>with kids whose parents aren't coming home.

My god.

I didn't realize the tragedy of this all until I read this. I was feeling
quite sorry for all the dead, but the real tragedy is for the still living.
Just imagine you're a 5-10 old kid. Imagine what would mean to you. It
hurts just to try.

Who's the one to tell these kids why their parents are late today?

I think I just couldn't.

--
Xouba,
who just yesterday thought that life was not so bad.

One terrorist/hijacker alive though wounded

[erlkonig]

A report through personal contacts is that
one hijacker is alive although wounded.
Unfortunately no further information was
available (not nationality, which flight, etc).
Based on the source, I'd give the report about
an 80% chance of being genuine.

Re:One terrorist/hijacker alive though wounded

[catseye_95051]

Read the news. There were 4 planes downed. Only 3 of them went into buildings. Of the 3 that went into buildings only two hit at a height, the pentagon one hit at basicly ground level.

Its amazing what dumb luck can do. There are documented cases of people falling out of airplanes (at flyign altitude) and walking away with no more then severe bruises. I wouldnt want to bet my life on it but it does sometiems happen.

Re:One terrorist/hijacker alive though wounded

[invalid_address]

okay, sounds like a total internet rumor to me. these were suicide missions, and if he didn't die in the impact, he would have probably killed himself if getting the chance, ie not paralyzed. *** I AM ASKING FOR A BOYCOTT OF ALL MERCHANDISE ON THE FOLLOWING SITE, DUE TO THIS T-SHIRT LINK I SAW IN ANOTHER FORUM. THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY FUNNY OR WITTY. SEE http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/productdetail.as px?prodno=1468594&zoom=yes FOR THE OFFENDER. FORCE THIS COMPANY TO TAKE THIS PAGE DOWN IMMEDIATELY. *** i understand we have a thing called the first amendment, but the bill of rights is not printed on toilet paper. the fact that an american or otherwise would try to profit off such an atrocity makes me sick. f k this person and their idea of creativity.

The benefits of large scale military action

[Astrofugue]

I've seen several posts here decrying the use of force without knowing exactly who perpetrated the attack, citing the initiation of a circle of violence, loss of innocent lives, the rule of law, et cetera. What I haven't seen is any kind of logical thought as to the positive effects of such a strike. To do so, we'd need to take a good look at the motives and support of terrorism.

Just off the top of my head, at rock bottom it boils down to pro-my-party, anti-that-party. As fanatics conduct almost all terrorism, I don't think you can resolve the "anti-that-party" issue very easily without going belly up. If you can think of a way to stop people from hating what you stand for, definitely, post it. However, enough retaliatory military strikes at people belonging to the "pro-my-party" camp will cause "pain" to the organization and thusly create a negative reinforcement to each terrorist action. Large amounts of pain would eliminate half of the motive of terrorist action because the "pro-my-party" stance couldn't condone the damage done to "my-party."

It isn't even necessary to be sure you have the right terrorist organization. Just the fact of violence has been used against terrorist nations would most likely have a deterring effect. It's a well-known fact that terrorism isn't self-sufficient. Terrorist organizations must receive funding and support from somewhere. In most cases, this support comes from what are often called "terrorist nations." In many cases, not only does the terrorist nation and the people of that nation provide funding for the terrorist organization, it actively protects the organization from law enforcement activity. Large-scale military action would most likely encourage terrorist nations to cooperate with international law enforcement to stop terrorist organizations.

Most posts against the use of force seem to be largely complaints against the loss of innocent life. I completely agree. Innocent lives should not be lost due to terrorism, theirs _OR_OURS_. Force can be applied in such a way as to encourage antiterrorism cooperation without the loss of human life. For example, it should be possible to broadcast to the world that we will level a certain major city in a certain terrorist nation, conventionally or with nuclear weapons, but I think nuclear weapons would make a much stronger, _enduring_ statement. The people living in that city will have two or three weeks to evacuate before the city is destroyed. The nation will have enough warning to be able to evacuate people without the ability to evacuate on their own. The loss in terms of resources would be tremendous. I'll bet it would take only two such examples to largely eliminate terrorism with very little loss of life. If not, take two more and reassess. Soon, the people of the terrorist nations would likely give up the terrorists.

Re:The benefits of large scale military action

[ceresian2112]

Great post. Make it so. There must be retaliation, or we will be seen as weak.

Compare to Pearl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

This is different, it is worse. The Imperial Japanese Navy didn't tear up Honolulu, though it would have been easy enough. Here, a civilian and a military target were hit.

even in silence, we appreciate it

[Anonymous Coward]

thanks

9/11/2001

[Anonymous Coward]

9+11+2+0+0+1=_23_

Yog Sothoth has been freed

Can't wait

[Anonymous Coward]

for the "before" - "after" postcards from NY.

I must always say

[sielwolf]

That the US, for all of its amount of turbulence between its component minorities, has taken the topic of culture clash pretty well. Just looking at the Turks in Germany, the Pakistanis in the UK, or the Palestinians in Israel pale the US topics of black and white.

And I don't think that any nation would really want for the US to become a "21st century" military. Which would you rather have? A superpower with a large uniformed army? Or a nation funding 200 billion dollars a year in terrorist activities against the nations that it doesn't like?

The CIA has done some terrorist actions in its history? Do we want them to become the long arm of the US?

There's another founding father you should heed...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Good will and free trade with all, entangling aliances with none." -Thomas Jefferson

If we would have heeded this in the first place, we would not be where we are today. We have fueled the hatred around the world against us with every bomb dropped in the name of supressing oil prices. With every culture we've forced into our image.

Blood lust breeds itself. I speak as a person who has come to forgive a father who sexually molested him, whose mother abandoned him to the state, who has seen his family torn apart by an individuals greed. In spite of all this, I say forgiveness is the only medicine that can bring lasting healing. You may watch your enemy die in writhing pain, but unless you forgive him, you will burn with bitterness and resentment, hurting yourself and those closest to you.

We should be angry, we should feel hurt, we should pity all those people, but let's also step back and consider the families of the million plus people that a political war and subsequent sanctions have killed in Iraq. We cheered as a nation as their world was smashed into the ground. We cheered then, like animals, watching "the enemy" die, even though this enemy was our fellow man. A million people died, who were not our stated enemy, and we are surprised when people lash out at us?

It is time to awaken America. You have betrayed your first love of equality and freedom, and have been purchased to do the bidding of those with money. You are a whore, unfaithful to that which has made you great, and in the process, you have hurt many, in the name of appeasing the powers of money.

Re:Content-Building one

[Anonymous Coward]

There's one thing I'm not certain about.
I see tower one I believe on fire near its top.
Most of the building isn't involved though.
So how can that building collapse. A portion Breaking off I can understand.

On the comparison with Pearl Harbour

[Anonymous Coward]

It occurs to me that people might want to stop comparing this disaster with Pearl Harbour. President Roosevelt knew about the upcoming attack on Pearl Harbour and knowingly sacrificed his soldiers [1]. Or are we implying that GWB knew about this in advance? Anybody actually cares about the pure facts?

[1] http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Its time to kick ass

[ceresian2112]

I am afraid I am weary of all the peace talks and finger pointing. Of all the people in Cairo and Palestine dancing in the streets and handing out candy I say this: When the sweet taste of the candy fades and you tuck your children into their beds, will you keep the light on ? Last night is the last night of sleep you will ever get again. We will rebuild. We will morn. And liberty, unlike those terrorist bastards, will survive.

More likely...

[artemis67]

They will probably put a memorial park in its place.

Moderate this article down

[Anonymous Coward]

In Pearl Harbor, we had an enemy. Here, we have nobody. An enemy that (last I heard) chose to remain nameless.

Already I hear Slashdot readers saying we should bomb any and all of our enemies, regardless of whether we know their guilt or innocence.

On slashdot, the mob-mentality is typically disdained. They're the unthinking folks who actually like Windows.

Guess what...mobs don't buy software. Mobs wear hoods and lynch innocent people. They do this 'cause they're "31337".

The true slashdot problem-solver quietly analyses a problem and, only after CAREFUL CONSIDERATION, makes the slightest adjustment which fixes the problem. They DO NOT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Sad day

[Str8Dog]

Here are my thoughts, John. This is so sad, but it's gonna go down.

You PRAY?!?!?

[JSR $FDED]

To whom? Whose god?

Ours, who allowed that to happen?

Or theirs, who inspires them to commit these atrocities?

There is no god.

There's only room for mourning, but none for praying.

Something You Guys Probably Aren't Used To Seeing

[Anonymous Coward]

In Polluted and dirty Las Angeles,
Hides a man
Somber faced,
Disheveled Hair,
Chin jutting forward in difance--
Simply Displaying the banner of Freedom.

Onward with your holy Crusade
Hold your ground against all the pain,
All the torture
Immorality, and
Evil of a generation.

Simply this red, white and blue
Banner He holds.
A gentle reminder--
That Cuts like jagged glass
And Roars with the rage of an entire country.
Without uttering a word,
He roars louder than the lion.

by: Gustavis Werber Bryan, American

Violence leads to more violence

[Zwei]

Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques? [...] They started the fight. It's time to end it.

You know what that remind me of?
When I was in kindergarden, everytime there was a fight, we'd come up to the teacher, crying "He started!". That never helped us back then, and it won't help anybody, a man or a country, now.

Violence triggers more violence. We can trace the ME conflict back to the 19-th century, if we'd like to, when the first Zionists came to Israel.

Ech'ad Ha'am, one of the famous Zionist scholars, wrote in "Truth from Israel", published in 1891 (All the mistakes in the translation are mine:) "[The Jewish residents] are walking with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, tresspassing their property, beating them with violence and without need, and even praising such deeds".

Trying to kill each other won't solve the situation. It never did, and it never will. I live in the Middle East. To be precise, I live in Jerusalem. My dad was shot by an Egyptian soldier, and died from his wounds.

So I'm having a damn good seat in the middle of the conflict, and believe me, I don't care who started it. Justice won't do any good, and won't bring anybody back from the dead. We can only try and improve our future.

I lost a father, and that hurts. I don't want nobody else to lose a father as well, and I don't care wether he's "evil" or not, wether he got "god" by his side or not, wether he lives west or east of the border... Nobody.

Re:Violence leads to more violence

[sysop0130]

I agree...they wiped out a lot of our people, so we want to nuke them. If we wipe out a lot of their people...guess what they'll want to do? I don't know for sure, but it'd probably be even worse than this...

Re:Violence leads to more violence

[spagma]

If we do not do anything about it, they are not going to suddenly realize that we are not going to "sink to their level" and stop attacking. Ignore the problem and it will go away, is definetly not the answer. We don't want to kill innocent people, but how many innocent people did they kill, and they were dancing in the streets about it. They do not look at us as if we are people, but targets. If we do nothing about it, they will do nothing to stop. In this case there is no teacher to go running to, there is no one in charge of the classroom to say "ok now boys' that will be quite enough". It is street justice time, and I say we knock them back a few centuries.

Just a thought

[anzha]

This morning I woke up, went and dropped myself into the shower after starting to boot up my puter to check email and the like.

I came back and read a message from my gf about what had happened (I'm very much on autopilot in the morning!). I flipped on teh TV cuz the news webservers were choking...and low and behold i wasn't a prank or my gf trying to get my motor running firs thing in the morning.

We did a family check in to make sure that there were no MIA among us...and as I sat there going from horror to relief to total fury...a thought struck me.

If the newsies are even 10% right about these monsters using the net for communicating...who better to play a bit of a game of 'stalk the terrorist online' than the people here...

Now, a suggestion...be DAMNED careful (sorry about the language). No use in having slashdot posthumous awards. Second...be VERY, VERY sure about what you have found. Then, do NOT do a thing, other than tell the authorities, perhaps walking them through the server you found the information. Remember, an LGB is a LOT more effective at ending a terrorist than a thrashed server, k? For that matter a lot of it is prolly sitting right out in plain sight...just takes some people to sift through...and if excellent coders and debuggers can't do that...

Think of it as a massively parallel search engine. Powered by slashdot.

What do you think? If done, there would need to be some sort of coordination...say on IRC?

Re:Just a thought

[Anonymous Coward]

No slashdot poster has the ability to track anything on the net. They're all too busy dry-humping the furniture in excitement that World War III might be about to start to do anything useful.

Nice idea, but the retards round here aren't up to it.

This attack was retaliation

[marcmac]

This isn't going to be a popular post, but...

I can very well imagine that the attack today was carried out in retaliation for the US bombing someones home, killing their families, starving their children through sanctions, etc...

And with those criteria, the list of suspects is not short.

We've been bombing Iraq on a monthly basis since the last Bush was president - so often, in fact, that it no longer makes the news over here. But, on the receiving end, I'm sure that it does. Can we really imagine what it would be like to feel the way we do right now EVERY SINGLE DAY?

And no, I'm not condoning this attack - I'm merely pointing out that it's no more or less wrong than our attacks on the populations of other countries.

But we only attack military targets!

Not the case - we attack targets of strategic value, including factories, ports, etc... Where people work. And when we miss, we hit houses, schools, churches, etc.

As we reap, so shall we sow.

Sigh.

Re:This attack was retaliation

[Anonymous Coward]

100% behind that.

Its time to experience the suffering that many other countries have felt, something that the US has been imune till now and learn to refrain from using military force has a solution to every problem that can't be solved trough immediate negotiation. Other much older nations have long learned this lesson.

Re:This attack was retaliation

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid you are right.....

Re:This attack was retaliation

[datarat]

I want to thank you for having the guts to not post anonymously.

I still disagree. Sanctions are easily lifted, and bombing stops. And what was the price for the cessation of those things?

At any point did we DELIBERATELY kill thousands? What was the strategic value of the WTC?

Other than as an object of fear.

Regardless, this is one of those situations that has nothing to do with right or wrong. This is a situation regarding the survival of our way of life.

As a child, I remember the comics that told me that fighting in our foes' manner reduced us to his level.

So be it. The British know how to handle terrorism. The Israeli's know how to handle terrorism. The Russian's know how to handle Terrorism. It's time we went to school.

Re:This attack was retaliation

[Anonymous Coward]

why is the USA in Iraq? why was it in Vietnam? those countries aren't even near the allmighty giant USA

Re:This attack was retaliation

[datarat]

Oh for crying out loud.

The US went to Iraq because we wanted to beat up on some poor, defenseless, harmless, peaceful non-english speaking middle eastern dustbowl.

For the uninitiated, that was sarcasm.

I'm not going to give you a history lesson youngster. You could also ask why we were in Germany or Japan, couldn't you. You obviously have a computer, so try learning something with it instead of spending all of your time posting uninformed responses anonymously.

hey moron...they're GIVING it up for this..

[Anonymous Koward]

fool...rtfp (read the fucking page)

What Would Grandpa Do?

[BarakMich]

In a time like this, I'm trying to look at what my grandfather did on Dec. 7, 1942. He was actually in the air force at the time... although in Virginia.

Perhaps in our personal histories we can find some link...

Re:What Would Grandpa Do?

[Anonymous Coward]

i recall ww2 was waged in europe... and he was... in virginia, usa?

Re:mavet laaravim

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as I heard, I first prayed.

Then I said: WTF, oh well, back to downloading more p0rn...

Re:Technology? Low tech solution to hijacking.

[jonathan_95060]

>The only thing that can ultimately defend against
>terrorism is signals intelligence --high tech. We
>have insanely high capabilities in this area and
>use them

How about the low tech solution of having a breach proof door protecting the cockpit?

It wouldn't be hard to have two secure door controlled from within the cockpit to prevent hijackers gaining control of the cockpit.

Combine this with a policy of NEVER opening the cockpit to hostiles NO MATTER WHAT and hijackings would disappear -- a hijacking simply degenerates to a typical hostage situation.

Why take hostages on an airplane (difficult to get past security) when you could take them at a shopping mall?

Nobody to make war against

[nut]

I've seen a lot of comments along the lines of, "This is an act of war and we must respond in kind," or "This is an act of war, but we must not act rashly." Both possibly valid responses, but nobody has observed that there is most probably not a nation or state here to go to war with. All the most likely suspects are representatives of dispossessed peoples. What nation will you declare war upon?

Re:Nobody to make war against

[catseye_95051]

Those that give them shelter and support.

That may seem callous and devoid of feeling for the "innocents" of those countries but innocents are ALWAYS among the first victims of wars between countries and in sheltering those who would attack us IMO those countries DO wage war against us.

Re:Nobody to make war against

[Anonymous Coward]

A country willing to deliberately give shelter and support to the sort of people who commit acts like this are VERY FAR from innocent, just as an individual would not be innocent if he/she willingly and knowingly allowed (say) a serial killer to hide out in his/her home. It is outright wrong to even vaguely attempt to defend those countries - they have full choice in doing what they are doing, and it is primarily because of the safe harbour provided by such countries that these terrorists CAN even flourish as they clearly do. Attack those countries - they are as guilty as if they themselves had performed the attacks. Attack them again and again until they are no longer interested in harbouring terrorists.

That does not mean blow up arbitrary civilian targets. Declare war and follow "rules" of war.

Re:Nobody to make war against

[Anonymous Coward]

I can say the same about the US, a country that supports a nation (Israel) that pratices state terrorism, by the deliberate killing of top palestians menbers without any trial or intention of capturing them, it's the same thing only the proportion of the tragedy is different.

Re:Nobody to make war against

[Anonymous Coward]

the deliberate killing of top palestians menbers without any trial or intention of capturing them

I'm sorry, but no matter what you say, that is NOT the same as torching four year old girls in enormous balls of flame. Killing a palestinian leader involved in assisting organizations to carry out suicide bombings to blow up Israeli teenagers is, no matter how you look at it, the same as flying a four-year old girl into the side of a building.

Re:rebuilding the towers...-Sleepy

[Anonymous Coward]

How about an overworked, sleepy pilot?
A more real danger.

Here's a story on how low tech it was

[WillSeattle]

And just in case you think I just want to beat up on Jon for being a d.rk, here's a local story on how low tech the attack was.

How They Did It

A word for the innocent....

[catseye_95051]

As we deal with this day of horror and shock, we will want to act. Those who cannot understand that an American of Arabian descent is as much an American as one of western european descent may feel the urge to lash out at their fellow americans.

Don't.

The innocent hurt and dead are hurt and ead and nothing can undo that. Creating more innocent victims does nothing but make this act of terrorism all the more successful. I've known many Muslims in my time and they were all kind, sweet, gentle people. Holding them to blame for an act like this woudl be akin to holding all christians to blame for the nbuts who shoot doctors in the name of "christianity."

People are likening this to Perl Harbor. In the wake of Perl Harbor we as a society comitted one of the greatest organized crimed against americans ever comitted-- sending japanese americans to internment camps. Lets prove we are better then those that came before or us or at elast have learend from their mistakes. Our enemies are OUTSIDE this country, not within it.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

they got what they deserved. your proof of that. (shoot first, find out who did it later).

typical cattle (friend use sheep but i find cattle more offensive)

No, but we can take what they fight for

[FreeUser]

Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.

We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.

They fight for mecca.

We level mecca.

They fight for palestine?

We sow the palistinian soil with kobalt and radioactive salt.

They fight for .

We nuke anything remotely associated with country/cause/religion.

We can win this sort of fight, on our own terms, if we so desire. Chances are, however, after a day to cool off and begin thinking rationally again, we will decide the moral and ethical costs of doing any of the above are simply too high.

Once I am rational again (having one's friend describe hearing his colleagues burn alive while he listens over the telephone doesn't tend to make one rational) I will probably not agree with exterminating those who did this and ending their history, once and for all. But that is tommorow. Today, I want each and every member of the society that spawned these vermin to die. Preferably by nuclear fire.

non-standard perspectives

[Anonymous Coward]

I can think of three non-standard (the standard being "This is terrible; we need to kill someone for doing it.") perspectives on this event. 1) most American don't give a damn about 50,000 dead unless it's a relative or a celebrity. More people than that die every year because their medical care (including proper nutrition) is not profitable enough to be interesting. 2) how does this differ from our Tomahawk attack on a medical supply factory (among our other assasinations, government "destabilizations", etc.); how many people have we killed, directly and indirectly, by "acts of war" against targets in other nations? If we perform terror actions against others, where's our justification for moral outrage? 3) how do we know that the FBI/CIA/(agency of choice) did not collaborate, passively or actively, in this event? Faced with massive budget reallocations to the "New Star Wars" and a lot of recent negative publicity, it is possible that "let's show them why we're needed" combined with a documented disregard for "collateral damage", not to mention the almost-certain increase in "freedom of action" for the agency (meaning that we will lose more of what little freedom we have left) was too attractive for the more "committed" members of some agency to resist.

My Condolences.

[mallie_mcg]

I wish to pass along my condolences to all who lost family and friends in this horrendous attack. I am shaking as I write this; the office seems to be filled with an eerie silence. As an Australian, I have never really been touched, by such things, but it seems that those of the free world have been shocked by what has happened.

Unlike Pearl Harbour which was horrific this attack is much much worse, for it was not a military target that was attacked, but a civilian target, it was not weapons that were used but people. This is a despicable attack, and I hope for swift retribution to be carried out on the perpetrators of this evil act. I pray that this retribution does not carry the risk of world war with it too.

Most importantly I pray for the families of victims, mothers and fathers who have lost children. Children who have lost mothers and fathers. Brothers and sisters who have lost siblings. Friends who have lost their friends. I pray that you are all able to find comfort and solace, and are able to continue your lives in peace.

I feel your argument. But it won't happen.

[El Camino SS]

No one group of people has the lock-down on civilized behavior. I am a newsman in Nashville, TN, and I see bloodshed constantly. THIS IS UNFORTUNATELY A DIFFERENT MATTER. I would love to have a peaceful resolution to all of this... that the world will rise up and force them out of hiding. But the truth of the matter seems worse. There are images of people dancing in the streets... smiling all over (what appears to be) the Arabic world. This is incredible. I might not want a war. But as I stated above, no one group of humans is above dangerous bloodshed and violence. THIS WILL BE VERY BAD. IMHO in the Arabic world I see that they WILL NEVER GIVE THESE PEOPLE UP. They are superstars to them. For what? I have no idea. We don't dance in the streets over their deaths. I am upset when Muslims die as much as the Jews. Bun now, they have an active enemy with us. They're racist, just like the Jews are racist against them. Just like most of the rest of the world is racist. My greatest fear is that we will become racist because of this. "Welcome to United Airlines, please check your ethnicity here." "OK, Mister Hamul. Please have a seat in the caged area at the back of the plane."

Re:I feel your argument. But it won't happen.

[Anonymous Coward]

For what? I have no idea. We don't dance in the streets over their deaths.

Dancing in the streets is the celebration of powerless people who won a surprising victory. When we kill Arabs, directly or indirectly, we don't dance - we shake our heads and talk about how it was "regrettable but necessary" (gulf war) or "reprehensible" (Israel). You should really think about why these killers enjoy such widespread support. It kind of goes against the "Bin Laden" theory, the theory that an Arch-Villain is driving the whole thing.

Pearl Harbour was NOT a terrorist act!

[Anonymous Coward]

Pearl Harbour was an act of war, sanctioned by a foreign government. I wish that the story-crazed reporters would stop referring to this as "the worst act of terrorism since Pearl Harbour"!!!

I say again, Pearl Harbour was NOT a terrorist attack!

Jon, stop towing the standard line and come up with something original, and maybe accurate!

The root of the Muslim faith

[wytcld]

In a museum in Istanbul is displayed a letter from the Prophet to the head of the Egyptian Coptics saying in so many words that he can convert or be killed. The very source of the Muslim faith explicitly favored killing. We do not serve truth or tolerance by pretending that Mohammed was a good man, or that anyone who truly follows him was good. We will be accosted by more 'martyrs' as long as that Faith persists in its fundamentalist form, because the Prophet was in many dimensions truly evil.

This is not to say that Muslims are evil - most are not fundamentalists, and are no better or worse than the rest of the run of humanity. But there's a very good reason why Turkey outlaws Muslim fundamentalism, even though their culture remains of the Faith - they know that the core is dangerously laced. We must not fall into the error that Muslim fundamentalists are no worse than, say, Christian fundamentalists (who after all only shoot physicians who provide abortions). There is no difference in kind between fundamentalist Muslim and fundamentalist Nazi belief, and neither should be tolerated when it is armed, anywhere on the face of this Earth.

Excuse me, I watch the towers fall this morning from my window.

Re:The root of the Muslim faith

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you _really_ think Christian fundamentalists are better than Muslim fundamentalists?
You probably never was in Ireland then...

Re:The root of the Muslim faith

[RexxFiend]

and the crusades and the spanish inquisition and countless other atrocities perpetrated by "christians" throughout history can be conveniently forgotten while you continue your diatribe against islam. I am not a muslim or a christian but I am frankly staggered by your blinkered attitude towards the muslim faith. Christ was no boy scout either by certain accounts but that doen not negate his teachings or the religion which, like islam, preaches tolerance at the core. It is people like you in all religions which cause us problems -the fist step to becoming a "fundamentalist" is to believe that every other religion is fundamentally evil and that you are doing the work of god/allah/ etc by killing their followers.

btw that Nazis were more occultist, but definately had a "christian" basis.

get off your high horse and read the fucking bible, particularly the new testatment, then read the Quran and see if you can spot the bits which tell you to bomb christians.

Re:The root of the Muslim faith

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a comment about religion, as was the previous one. It has to do with the religious ramifications of events such as the Crusades, Inquisition, Pearl Harbor, and yesterday's events. It is partially opinion, although not in whole, and partially fact, although not in entirity.

Enough said.

-----

What religion perpetuated the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and "countless other atrocities"? Don't say "christians" or "christianity", because that is not a religion. Were one to study the Islam religion, or the Quran, and then examine the actions of a Fundamentalist Islamic person . . . well, I have, and it boggles my mind. I also feel that were one to actually study (and not simply read) the Bible, such a study would result in the same perplexity when examing a Christian Fundamentalist's actions. That is my opinion.

I am "staggered" as well. Often one will see a certain person who is PROFESSED of a certain faith act a certain way, and all of a sudden "all Christians are like that" or "all those Muslims are like that". I don't understand it myself, but then again I don't understand the killing of a physician for doing his job or for crashing a plane into a 110-story building.

Your comment "Christ was no boy scout . . ." is completely lacking, but I rather not start a flame war. We've got enough of those already.

But you are correct. Both religions preach tolerance. The Bible moreso, but they do hold these as central constructs to their foundations. I once say a Christian T-Shirt that read: "'Love thy neighbor as thyself.' I meant that. -God" I never remember reading any stipulation or addendum to that phrase, eg, "if they are not your brethren, kill them" or "if they attack you, blow them to bits". I'm not as well-versed in the Muslim faith, so feel free to correct me and point me to some source on the net where I can learn more; however, I believe that the non-fundamentalist Islamic people follow some such tolerance aspect within their religion, though it may not be central to the religion.

The comment that I find interesting is the one in which you make a stereotype when all the while you are posting against stereotyping. No offense. Yesterday was tragic, more tragic than the events of Pearl Harbor, in which the casualaties were almost all military and not civilian, and were I to have posted yesterday morning, I probably would have hurried and posted something at least somewhat along the same lines. You wrote, "It is people like you in all religions . . ." Could you explain that?

Your first step to becoming a "fundamentalist" I find partly right, however. The first step involves believing you are doing the work of God/Allah/etc by doing something against those not of your religion which contradicts the basis of that religion. It really has nothing to do with believing that every other religion is fundamentally evil/false. If you follow a religion, one of the principles in every religion is that all others are wrong and evil. Be careful on the definition of evil here, because it is not one such as we might think. It is more along the lines of "if this thing is not from God/Allah/etc, then it is evil". In religion there is no middle ground, no grey area. You are or you aren't.

Actually, the Nazi party had no "christian" basis, because "christianity" is not a religion, as previously stated. If you mean based on the Bible, I'd have to argue with you there. However, there have been and are people who may take a sentence or two from the Bible or other religious texts to justify a means to what they wish to accomplish. I could justify an end to a means, to any means, by picking up a random newspaper and picking a random article, and use a single phrase or sentence to justify my actions.

No offense to anyone of any religion. No offense to anyone at all. I'm a Christian myself, primarily, and secondly a Baptist. If I'm incorrect in anything, or if you just want to respond, feel free to respond to this post.

the real tragedy is

[Anonymous Koward]

that people have died to give you two assholes the right to post this crap. Look in the mirror, scum, and know you are lacking human qualities. I bet that's where you get you're cute little hardass attitudes, eh? twits

Re:Goddamnit!

[ceresian2112]

Amen brother. Bleeding hearts REALLY piss me off at these times. Lets kick some ass !

Parallels in history

[artemis67]

I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.

I'm reminded of the Roman Empire... one of the factors that led to the fall of that Empire was the constant raids by the Visigoths; not so much a nation as a nomadic people. They certainly weren't a match for the Empire in formal battle, but they led a fairly consistent "hit and run" campaign that greatly weakened the Romans and demoralized them.

Likewise, it's hard to pin down modern terrorists as a nation, but they execute suicide attacks whose primary purpose is to wear down and demoralize. They know they can't win a head-on battle with most governments, but they can wreak havoc if they can continue to hit us on our own soil on a regular basis.

What of the people celebrating?

[nobodyman]

Objviously not all Palestinians are denouncing bin Laden. On television, people in Palestine were cheering at what had happened. People passing out candy. Tears of joy.

Re:What of the people celebrating?

[zoikes]

Two words: Biased Reporting

Fox news were the only ones showing this footage over and over. It showed a bunch of 10-year old boys "celebrating", egged on by one or two adults.

This was on ONE street corner somewhere in the west bank.

From this, reactionary commentators have erroniously concluded that many Palestinians are happy that a blow has been struck at America.
Let's not feed racist hysteria.

Re:What of the people celebrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fox news were the only ones showing this footage over and over. It showed a bunch of 10-year old boys "celebrating", egged on by one or two adults.

Untrue. It was reported on all major networks, and the clips shown were not always of the same people, or even of the same country. It was also reported independantly on the BBC.

Re:What of the people celebrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

No cable here, and the major networks were certainly downplaying that footage -- I only caught a 5 sec clip of a handful of Palestinians cheering twice today. I think it's shameful that certain cable networks reportedly put the clip in regular rotation without any proof that Palestinians were involved.

Re:What of the people celebrating?

[Flambergius]

> Fox news were the only ones showing this
> footage over and over. It showed a bunch of 10-
> year old boys "celebrating", egged on by one or
> two adults.

Untrue. It was reported on all major networks, and the clips shown were not always of the same people, or even of the same country. It was also reported independantly on the BBC.


Actually, here in Finland it was reported that celebrations involved a small group. All reports I have seen (CNN, BBC, Yle and MTV3 of Finland, DW) show a clip of the same and very recognizable woman and some children. That clip may occasionally be accompanied by other clips, but mostly it's just that one scene.
If the celebrations were wide-spread I would think we would see more diverse footage.

--Flam

the only way.

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill them all. All the fucking people that are celebrating this thing (yes, you too ya fucking camel buggering Egyptians). Wipe them from the face of the earth with nuclear, biological and conventional weapons then nuke the whole area from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Hopefully Bush turns out to have more balls (yeah, I see the pun there) than his old man did.

Retaliation

[Anonymous Coward]

Draft up a list of all the known middle eastern Terrorists. Give the middle east 24 hours to produce them. After 24, Nuke them. Sorry Europe, sorry Russia, good frickin' bye Middle East.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Anonymous Coward]

We rebuilt Japan because we had a few fists full of shame from murdering more civilians than a few airplanes could ever kill.

I'm Sorry Jon

[krmt]

I completely forgot to send my best hopes and wishes for your friend. I didn't mean to belittle your article at all, if that's how it came across (I didn't expect it to get modded up really) and my hopes go with him and everyone else.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Anonymous Coward]

The moderation system on slashdot is really bad how can crap like this "kill kill kill kill" be moded up.

My prayer for the world, and for you...

[Braintrust]

Arise!

Arise,
and cast away the weary weight of the world.

Arise,
you who are hurt,
who are tread upon,
by the sadness that you see.

To lift things,
to make a better way.
To be the most of that specific potential,
which constitutes a man.
This is where we go,
together.

Reject the falsehoods of division.
We are the same.
Follow not those who would tell you otherwise.
Follow only that tender voice,
that song within,
that sings from the best of nature.

The fear of your brother is unfounded,
your sister shares your song.
The prophet who speaks with different voice than this,
is deceiving.

Tomorrow marks the new time.
Not yet unresolved from the path of possibility,
it can begin today.

The line must be drawn,
firmly and with full effort and attention.
The course of things will change.
It is our choice.

To be caretakers of this world.
To start with your own circle,
to sweep the majestic force of compassion around you,
to encompass what you see.

Act with the totality of your urgings,
that hidden longing to love that lives within us all.
To see a time when the first of us,
has no more than the last of us.

The possibility for a new way is here, now.
Begin with the ending of the old ways.
We must each be that ideal,
that lesson never learned.
Today, begin a new way of things.

Reach out to your enemy,
with caution,
but with intent of inclusion.
We are the same.

Only the path has been different,
only the taint of prejudice and presumption,
stains slightly different hues.
We must be that brilliant tapestry.

Cast away the religions,
the corrupt institutions,
that poison the waters of our lives.
The teachings are divisive,
and therefore thoroughly flawed.

The miracle is in you,
not in the lies of the demagogue.

Learn from the rich texture of your neighbour,
breath in the different colours of their lives.
Let each of us express ourselves,
with beauty,
with the fullest aspect of our souls.

Without fear,
without the urge to take,
to hurt,
the other among us.
It can be no other way.

Yes, And The New Spire Should Be From The Old

[cybrpnk]

Not only should we rebuild the towers immediately but the new spires on the top should be cast from metal melted down from the two that are down now. What terrorists may knock down we will hold higher than ever.

Tech ramblings?

[curious.corn]

Ugh, a little pointless headline I must agree.
OTOH, just to keep up the geek pride (ugh, I'm trying to sound as much appropriate as possible... I don't want to make a 'funny' port whatsoever.) I understand Manhattan comunications are down and severely crippled as many telecom equipment used to sit atop the towers. Go ahead donate blood but once home fire up your cable and plug your wavelan card to a broadcast antenna out of a window

Google search on wlan

Other folks should offer their laptops to people trying to contact relatives (no video/audio streams: spare the bandwidth!)

Re:ground control override

[MyMarty]

Sounds like a sensible suggestion. It would work well in most cases. But think also about what this alternative control means - If a terrorist wants to hijack a plane why not just go straight down to the control tower and hijack all planes at once by overriding their controls? Instead of a couple of terrorists taking over one plane, you have a lot more terrorists, but taking over a couple of hundred planes (maybe more).

I still don't think it's a terrible idea, if there's some practical system of controls and double checking in place. I can't think of any, though.

I agree... blaming technology is just stupid...

[nettdata]

That's right... it turns out that (according to CNN report just now) that the original flight was hijacked using knives; butter or otherwise, I don't know. And they've been around for a LONG time.

Re:I agree... blaming technology is just stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how Katz is blaming technology this time. Wasn't he saying the exact opposite (tech's not the problem, people are) after Columbine?

Time to act

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say that I am dissapointed in the attitude taken during this grave and unfortunate time. Those comments that I have read that blame america's actions (some due to our actions at the UN summit) are ludicrous because america is it's people and it's republic constitution (we are a republic not a democracy, remember the "Pledge of Allegiance"). The blame for this action is pure and simple evil. When people dance in the street due to the fact that thousands of inocents have been killed and many more injured I cannot contain my overwhelming animosity for anyone who takes glee in this.

Re:Time to act

[Anonymous Coward]

When people dance in the street due to the fact that thousands of inocents have been killed and many more injured I cannot contain my overwhelming animosity for anyone who takes glee in this.


Sorry, but can't you remenber the Gulf War, when everybody was cheering when the attacks started at Bagdad, and everybody was watching it like if it was a national sport, notheless many iraqi people were being killed in an unbalanced situation like it is now.

I always wondered why they didn't...

[Anonymous Coward]

have the cockpit be inaccessible from the rest of the aircraft. The cockpit on commercial airliners should have it's own entrance from the outside of the plane and should not be accessible from the passenger area. There's just no reason it needs to be accessible. The pilots should be there to simply fly the plane. An aircraft designed like this wouldn't really be subject to hijackers.

Re:People get the government the want

[Anonymous Coward]

In the end I have to say this - If it IS Bin Laden, or anyone else harbored by a Government (Nudge Nudge wink wink), the answer is this - give that government 48 hours to turn over said terrorist, or call them accesories before and after the fact to an act of war, and that we are now at war with that government. Then end it in one blinding flash

They want to take out inocent people, so should we - we can get a lot more asymetrical than they can - if it take nuking every town in the country, we can do it

..and you get modded down?

[Anonymous Koward]

wtf is up at /. lately? Are the inmates running the asylum?

silence is now old hat

[Anonymous Coward]

The decision is out of the peoples hands; it is now time for our representatives, right or wrong
to make their points on our behalf. i do not believe it will be a silent , or even rational
repraisal.

tragedy

[two_tone]

in my life i have witnessed a few great national disasters. the first i can recall iswhen i was in grade school (k-4) and we were all ushered into the library. on that day i saw the challenger explode over and over again. i must have been 9 or 10 years old. it was once of the most horrific events that i have ever witnessed. this morning i was fixing a server in the datacenter between 8 and 10 am. when i came back to the fifth floor. i was ushered into a room of stark white faces and people crying. you have to understand that my office is only 10 miles from the pentagon and we are a dod contractor so naturally there was reason to worry. it felt like it did almost 15 years ago i was in a room with a bunch of people i knew watching a horrendous catastrophie over and over again. i wish that on no one. small children should never have to see that. parents should not have to live it. and the rest of us should not have to either. things like this should never happen. my deepest regret and infinite sadness goes out to the victims and their families during this darkest of hours.

Re:Technology? Low tech solution to hijacking.

[TandyMasterControl]

Making a blastproof door won't help much because the big bargaining chip is on the other side of it with the terrorists.

The attackers probably told the crew(s) that they would blow up the plane if they did not open the door. And since air crews have no way of really knowing what they have on the other side, they'll always do what they're told as long as it doesn't immediately mean the death of the passengers and people on the ground. It could be that if they comply the hijacker will just take them to Topeka and give himself up. Or if they do not comply, the terrorists may start killing passengers one at a time, or detonate a bomb in the hold killing them all.

The ideal would be to remove the ability of the terrorists to control the plane either directly or indirectly and to remove their ability to deliver threats and conduct negotiations, such as open this door or I blow up the plane, etc.

A possibility (one that is high tech) is for planes in the future to be remotely controlled from the ground in the event of possible hijacking or other in flight emergency. Remote piloting of commerical aircraft is frequently mentioned as a likely development anyway, but for economic reasons. It also needs to be possible to shut down all communication with the ground from the plane so that attackers have no one to deliver threats to. So taking control of an airplane by coercing the crew, or killing them and flying it yourself like the attackers did today, will become futile since the ground controllers will assume uninteruptible control of the flight remotely if a) the plane is off-course and b)no voice communication with the pilot is made. We will need many many safeguards to prevent remote control hijacking of course. It wouldn't be hard for remote telemetry from the cockpit gathered continuously and stored in a loop, like the cockpit -voice and flight data are now, to be sent from the aircraft automatically after the plane deviates from the flightpath. That would give people on the ground terrific information about what has been happening onboard just prior to the event. Also I would cause the radio to be disabled and for a big sign saying (RADIO DISBALED) to flash in the cockpit in the event that the remote telemetry suggests a terorrist takeover. Basically convert the flight into a freight elevator and make it physically impossible for them to influence the direction of the flight. Shut the terrorists up and take them down remotely somewhere as soon as possible, preferably a military base where they can receive a proper welcome.

sorry

[davey23sol]

Go ahead and mod this down...

But, Katz... this was really not appropriate today.

You made yourself a part of this story. This story is not about you. Hell, it's not really about technology. This is about thousands of people that died because some idiot wanted to make a point.

It's really sad you had to post a grandstanding article on such a terrible day.

Re:sorry

[datarat]

You know, normally I'm not a big fan of Katz, but I have to back him this time.

All he really did was tell us how the whole thing made him feel. If you really think about it, that's all he can honestly do.

Re:sorry

[Anonymous Coward]

Say what you like, but all the noise and fury of CNN, CNBC, et al, didn't bring home the magnitude of this to me the way the image of kids getting of the bus to meet a psychologist did...

Thanks Jon, it'll be a far more sobering experience for the rest of the day.

As for making "yourself part of the story" I think a lot more people than you give credit to, *are* part of it, we got email today to tell us to stop trying to mail our branch in NY as it was bouncing and overloading the server. I work at Commerzbank in Frankfurt, we had offices & people in the WTC..

later
jb
(praxis22@hotmail.com)

Reflexion

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunatly the USA has never felt destruction in their own territory, that feeling is quite known to many european & world nations, and that results in a policy of strong military contention, something that the US is not know by doing.

One thing is seeing some young military guys being brought back injured or dead, other is seeing indescriminate killing, chaos and desruption at your hometown.

Using the USA rethoric shouldn't we call it just a high precision attack with limited side effects? Isn't this what many civil population in other countries have felt sometimes for many months? ( remember Sarajevo)

Anyway I consider this a barbaric act that should be reprimended at any situation, it's just mass murdering, but it is also an occasion for reflexion, why are so many countries opposing the US? in Environamental policies, Missile defence system, Treaties with Russiam, Economic trade, Midle-East position, etc etc...surely the US must be doing something wrong that some of their traditional allies are opposing their policies?

Something that centuries of history have though many european nations is that more violence and opression is not a good response to violence and opression. Let's hope they learned this lesson in the meantime and that they dont make the situation much worse then it is by shooting and everyone and everything that seems minimally suspect.

My condolences to the victims of this or any other unecessary act of violence.

Yeah, Kill em all

[Anonymous Coward]

I've worked with these devout and mealy mouthed
egyptians and muslims who talk out their ass.
This is classic : "blame your stupidity for
believing me.." syndrome.
I say we crack down on all of these fucking
emigres who move in to make a living in a wealthy country with mediocre talents that won't get by
in a practical muslim country that values ability
and birth rather than learning.
The only safety it seems to me is to get rid of these fucking foreign notions and splinter communities and make a united ideal for our nation. I see five or six different languages spoken a day and can hardly get a hot dog at the local 7-11..it's time to get back to the core
caucasian constituency-fuck the rest...

Re:Yeah, Kill em all

[AsylumWraith]

Now now, there's no place for racism here. If you look through my post history, you'll see that I'm baying for blood (and not making any bones about it!) just like everyone else.

But not because the people who did this are Muslim, or Arab, or whatever. It is because they REFUSE to act in a civilized manner. And when you are dealing with barbarians who insist on killing you, to the point of not caring if they die in the attempt or not, the only civilized thing to do is kill them first.

This shouldn't be about racism. It should be about removing a scourge from the world.

BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[gmac63]

While you may have destroyed three buildings and wounded one, while you have taken thousands of innocent lives, while you may have caused this cowardly act of terror, while you have no other purpose than to soil this earth with your steps and fill the air with your stench, I'm extremely happy to inform you that...

YOU MISSED.

In the Harbor, there still stands a great lady. Green coated and quite proud. She is Liberty and that, you infestation, is one thing you missed. And missed you did.

She will be there when you get caught. She will be at your Judgement and She will be there upon your punishment.

Remember what you missed. You will see Her again. Bet on it.

Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh Pleeeeeease.

Its self-righteous crap like that makes so many people hate America.

Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[Anonymous Coward]

All you yanks do is make fun of the french, french this french that

and now you praise the friggen statue they gave you so much? Shut the fuck up, you arrogant prick

Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[gmac63]

what the fuck do the french have to do with this?!?

And you're right. I'm American. And I Am arrogant. Got it?

Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[radja]

the statue of liberty was a gift from france

Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[Anonymous Coward]

you forgot the word stupid. try to say it as well next time.

Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED...

[xxmacdaddyxx]

...this only reinforces the fact that the problem lies not with Islam, Americans, Saudis, Afghans, Catholics, Protestants, it's the swarming, teeming, breeding masses of *STUPID PEOPLE*...

You f**ck88 piece of sh86

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just what I think:
pay attention to me now because I am profane and use violence, admire my view because I am able to
hurt you..you little prick, get lost..

What rank tripe

[Ars-Fartsica]

A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.

At what point does a nation become so weak, so dissipated, that it seeks to answer a declaration of war with a criminal trial?

I can assure you that there are thousands of famillies who would be revolted at the concept of granting such odious individuals the presumption of innocence.

Re:What rank tripe

[Anonymous Coward]

Such odious individuals? As what? As whoever is accused of this crime? OK, I accuse you of the crime. Now you are an "odious individual" and should have no presumption of innocence.

Proper judicial procedures are not a symptom of weakness and dissipation. They are, first, an attempt to punish the offender rather than some innocent bystander. And second, to convince even the most skeptical onlooker that the proceeding was justice, not merely self-interested aggression.

Exercise: what would have happened if the Allies dispensed with the Nuremburg trials and just killed the "odious individuals"?

Re:What rank tripe

[Ars-Fartsica]

Exercise: what would have happened if the Allies dispensed with the Nuremburg trials and just killed the "odious individuals"?

Warning: you are way out of your league. I have studied the transcripts from Nurmeburg and the trial details at great length. Nuremburg was not a criminal trial - it was a series of contrived declarations that were designed to lend legitimacy to what were essentially preordained executions. There was never any intention of granting the presumption of innocence to the Nuremburg defedents, and the case was not tried within a framework where this dispensation was granting as a precursor.

But thanks for tossing around more of the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that amounts to a piss-poor devil's advocate argument.

Re:What rank tripe

[Junior J. Junior III]

At what point does a nation become so weak, so dissipated, that it seeks to answer a declaration of war with a criminal trial?

I'd say a pretty damn strong one. Imagine their country sends tanks and bombers, and our police force is powerful enough to stop them and arrest them without having to resort to killing them! That would be pretty damn powerful.

Re:What rank tripe

[Flambergius]

Sorry matey, but I have to call you on that.

As far as I know, you are correct on Nuremberg.

Why did you choose to ignore the following: "Proper judicial procedures are not a symptom of weakness and dissipation." I will contend that you have no comeback for this, no matter how much you have studied Nuremberg. Dismissing this argument based on a weakness in a minor sidenote just won't do.

Furthermore, I would like to make an observation and to ask you a question. It would seem to me that there is a high correlation with following the opinions: a) tighter security mesures affecting the whole society should be imposed immediatelly and permanently, b) immediate and strong military response should be made and c) those actions are necessary to protect freedom, justice and civilization. The two-part question to you is: do you agree with my observation, and if so, do you find that kind of thinking to be inconsistant?

--Flam

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Spike_/\_]

You know, the thing about a war is - you have to have another country. We just don't have one here, and we might never. And our military is unprepared to fight a religion, or a movement, or any well-funded highly-motivated group. Can you name a succesful "war" against such? How was it fought exactly? And do all defeated groups react the same as the Japanese? I know you want a good war, crypto! Did you see Three Kings?

The day our eyes were opened

[NyteMask]

Just like in Pearl harbor, We had a false sense of security. We never believed anyone would dare attack American soil. We were wrong then and we were wrong now. Now we see that we are just as able to be attacked as any other country. If we want to be viewed as a national powerhouse, then it is time to act like one. I hope we find the perpitrator and kill him and those who harbor him. It is time to act!

what utter bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

the world trade center was a monument to greed and capitalism. The people in it may all have been innocent individuals but the system of which they were a part was a machine built on greed.

Armored cockpit

[mr100percent]

Can't they make the cockpits armored, with thicker doors, and strong locks, thicker than the lavatory doors that don't hold anytbody back?

Re:Armored cockpit

[NyteMask]

you would think. I bet anything the next line of Boiengs will have totally seperated cock pits where the pilots will enter the plane in a totally different location.

Suitable punishment (was: Re:rebuilding the towers

[jamesc]

... Putting them in jail would be a much more satisfying punishment. ...

I like the ending of one of Tom Clancy's books (The Sum of All Fears??) better. In that, the leaders of a fringe group of Muslim terrorists are captured alive and turned over to an Islamic court for trial. They are found guilty of mass murder and beheaded, all according to strict Islamic law. That takes the wind out of the jihad sails. (I wonder if it also damns them to hell rather than the usual jihad/Paradise thing?)

This is not to say (or jump to the conclusion) that the actual terrorists are Muslim, but maybe the same principle could be made to work for whoever turns out to be responsible....

my god is mammon

[Anonymous Coward]

so is yours /.

Well...

[weslocke]

>All around New York City, psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal with kids whose parents aren't coming home

Well... goddamn.

The people doesn't matter.

[Pig Hogger]

This is the real thing, and it's not about the planes or the black boxes or the television. It's about the people, because that's what Matters.

If the people mattered, you wouldn't see firms headquartered around where the WTC was pick greedily and destroy the lives of the many people who were downsided all over the place in the name of the sacrosanct bottom-line.

The pisser is that even that amount of wanton destruction won't teach them that little!!!!

Re: What Repurcussions

[Spike_/\_]

You haven't read their stuff - you've got it backwards:
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
Getting killed will (a) reward them and (b) inspire the survivors. If you think that's crazy, think about Pearl Harbor: How do we think of those who died? How did it affect the surviving Americans?

RE: What Repercussions?

[Lunachick]

With regard to retaliation, I am left with only one thought: How many lives will it take to prove what the lives lost were worth?

There is a world of difference between retaliation and justice. I have little doubt that retaliation and additional loss of life will occur, but have reservations as to whether or not justice will truly be served in the process. This saddens me greatly.

With regard to the consequences of these attacks, I offer the following for consideration. Loss of innocence is the most striking casualty, regardless of the actual, final body count. The realization that horrifying events such as those witnessed today can happen here, on U.S. soil, is now a part of our national consciousness. The technology we rely upon on a daily basis for benign purposes has been successfully reinvented as devastating weaponry. How we deal with this loss of innocence, however, is what I believe to be of the greatest importance. The psychological ramifications of today's events will likely be years in the making; our cultural landscape will be undeniably altered.

I am a resident of Seattle. A little less than two years ago, residents of this city experienced the declaration of martial law in response to the WTO riots. While I am uncertain as to how we will respond to the terrorist acts experienced today, I have little doubt that the civil rights of our nation's average citizeny will be impacted. I hope that the decisions that are made for the purpose of ostensibly protecting our country are sensible ones; I fear, however, that instead we will lose something precious in the balance, that the freedoms we have long celebrated will be inexorably altered. In the wake of today's events, this is what I fear the most.

The greater threat is from within

[Slur]

I dare you to take an honest look at the killer beast that is our own fast-paced consumer lifestyle and get a little perspective on things....

http://www.bts.gov/btsprod/nts/Ch2_web/2-4.htm

... and it doesn't even mention the death-toll from cancer, obesity, and general stupidity. Where's the moral outrage about that?

I see the greatest threat coming from the corrupt self-serving souls of our leadership. While we may decry the actions of the individuals responsible and sincerely mourn the loss of those 271 lives...

http://usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/death -t oll.htm

... our leaders are already getting that twinkle in their eye that spells political opportunism. George Dubya in his shriveled little heart of hearts couldn't be more pleased about this turn of events given his political aims and those of his cronies. And mark my words, they'll be having a field-day pushing through all their pet Tough-On-X bills to put away every conceivable undesirable element in America and throughout the world.

All the lap-dogs in the House and Senate will be lapping up the blood-sweat of their constituencies, barking their retribution, hell-fire, and brimstone as loudly as possible to show that they're tougher than the guy in the next seat.

Mark my words, this is the beginning of a dark age of terrorism, only the greater terrorism will come from the soft-headed aristocracy we pathetically cling to as our representatives, and the cost in lives and freedoms will be a hundred-fold out of proportion with those 271 unfortunate deaths at the hands of four mad individuals.

Re:The greater threat is from within

[NyteMask]

You IDIOT. Cancer and Death by stupidity is one thing, death at the hands of a madman is another. These people didnt even have the chance to make a stupid mistake like you put it, and they never will. And our goverment sees no opp for this action. They see blood and they are going to repay the crime.

Re:The greater threat is from within

[datarat]

There is a greater threat. Those who insist on decrying our own country, our own people, our own culture (however flawed) in order to ignore the plain threat from outside.

Is this self loathing or cowardice?

Believe it or not, People in the United States are more civilized, more generous, and more gentle than many parts of the world. It may not look like it from inside the fishbowl, but riots aren't a daily occurrence here, are they.

We trust, probably more than we should. It was the root of this disaster, and while it would be easy to simply never trust again, it's our duty to regain some of that innocence, some of that freedom that we had, for our children.

I'll be the first to agree that politics in this country is a dirty business. I'll even agree that our lifestyle and structure may eventually prove to be each of our undoing.

But I will not, EVER, agree that we are a greater threat, a bigger danger than madmen who can kill thousands with no glimmer of conscience.

Don't lecture me on what may have been done before, or what may be done in the future. I know that that building was filled with people who had no more reason to die than I do. It makes me afraid, and anger is the complement of fear.

Throughout the day, I've been stopping to imagine the last moments of one of those lives. I know without being told that every single one of them started their day like hundreds before. Can you imagine how differently an ordinary day could end? Can you imagine the sudden panic as the floor in the stairwell begins to collapse, and you realize on the 40th floor that you will never, ever see you mother again? How about the thought that no one will know to feed your dog? What if you had never worked up the nerve to tell someone that they were loved?

Sure, I know it sounds sappy to a bunch of jaded imperialists who have no brains other than to follow their corrupt leaders.

So I'm a slave to my fast food culture. I still cry.

Re:The greater threat is from within

[Slur]

Replying to my own post, as obviously I wrote far too soon, way before I knew the details of how many were killed in the attack or how many terrorists were involved. My face is red after realizing the ignorance of my statistics.

These kooks managed to kill almost as many people as die accidentally in transportation-related accidents in an entire year here in the US - in a matter of minutes. It's like the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water. The USA feels nothing and hardly notices its own slow suicide, but when it hits all at once we jump out of the pot and get all up in arms. And we have the convenience of a particular source of this destruction that we can blame.

My perspective on this situation may perhaps seem skewed. I see the mind and the world political environment as parts of Nature, and this kind of event as a fact of nature - a natural disaster. The forces that caused it were born in the minds of people, but they wouldn't exist if not for the forces at work in the world in-general. And certainly the US wouldn't be such a tempting target if we weren't such assholes on the world stage.

All the talking heads on TV talking about this as an attack on "our way of life," should think long and hard about whether our "way of life" is really all that hot. We eat, sleep, shit, and screw in a manner much like every creature on earth. What distinguishes human beings in America is that we also have puffed-up attitudes about our style of eating, sleeping, shitting, and screwing, and think everyone around the world should do as we do, and join us in our suburban dreamscape going forward to our manifest destiny of peace, harmony, and major appliances for everyone.

I'm pissed, just as everyone seems to be, but I'm pissed on a thousand different levels. I'm pissed that a huge bunch of awesome living beings lost their lives. I don't care that they were Americans or Chinese or Arabs or Jews or whatever. This is a tragedy for Life Itself, and part of my original post was meant to point out that we are living in a tragic world, and that 99.999% of the tragic events that we bring upon ourselves and others every day go completely unnoticed.

So go ahead and react, America. Vote up all those bigmouth tough-on-you-name-it politicians and enjoy your new illusion of security. Personally, I'm going to stick to my own personal security, the comfort of knowing that we are each part of something greater than this consensual illusion we call America. We are part of one great life, one infinite universe, one nature, and in the beauty of eternity there is no need to fear anything.

Once again, pardon my ignorance.

Re: What Repurcussions

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why you kill *all* of em ;)

Wipe out their support (oil mainly) and they have no money to build nukes and fund attacks

Re:You don't respond to a Day of Infamy with a tri

[Anonymous Coward]

What does this possibly have to do with Munich in any REAL political or military sense?

Fucking moron.

We DIDn't Care. We Do now

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone thinks they are the center of the world.

Despite the repetive coverage of the news, most of america simply did not care about your middle-east turmoil.

We do now.

Guess who's side we are Now on?

Here here....

[ahchem]

Here here....

The most beautiful thing that I have read all day.

No shootings onboard

[GungaDan]

From the only inside account released thus far (Barbara Olsen - disrespected her republickin' positions on just about every political issue, but she did herself proud in her final moments, and I shall bash her name no more), the hijackers used boxcutters. Not techno-laser-weapons, not photon particle disintegrators, not even good old fashioned lead slugs travelling at high velocity, but FREAKIN' BOX CUTTERS to assume control of at least that particular plane. Whatever happened to the US Air Marshalls?!? Guess most of 'em got fired after all the hijacking scares of the '70s passed. It's a damn shame, because even one US Air Marshall on each of those planes could've made a HUGE difference. Live, let a buncha people die needlessly, and learn. Let's not forget the "learn" part now, eh, FAA?

Plane safety

[xixax]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

More likely, planes will be designed to minimise any chance of passengers interacting with the flight crew. Gone will be the days when a geek could wheedle a visit to the cockpit. And flyng in to a city will be like flying to the Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back, deviate from your flight path and they'll blat you.

In the longer term, technology isn't going to fix this problem. People ae too ingenious. It could have been a light plane loaded with Semtex, or a canister of germs.

Xix.

Re:People get the government the want

[Anonymous Coward]

So if the government of China accuses you of blowing up a Chinese airplane, they should inform the US, and the US should hand you over to China withing 48 hours. They should not request evidence from China or hold any kind of proceeding on the validity of the evidence.

And as you probably know, China is quite capable of 'one blinding flash'. They have 13 nuclear warheads pointed at the US.

Enders Game...

[OSgod]

Even as a youth he recognized how to deal with a bully -- there are many of them and you need to make an example.

When he grew up there is a lesson as well -- i.e.: genocide is not the solution...

We need a swift, accurate and well thought out sludge-hammer/nuclear level response (not neccessarily nukes, but same effect). We then can rebuild the remains into a new country (ala Japan) in whatever image we want.

Pearl Harbor!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

QUIT CALLING IT "ANOTHER PEARL HARBOR".

JAPAN IS OUR FRIEND NOW. Its time for people to get over it. We dropped two bombs on them, so quit reminding everybody.

Check this out...

[Frankenchrist]

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb"
"The third big war will begin when the big city is burning"
Nostradamus 1654

Re:You don't respond to a Day of Infamy with a tri

[feces_tossin_primate]

It has quite alot to do with the politics of appeasement.....
MAJOR fucking moron...

I'm sure that George Wubble-ya Bush will say...

[Brett Glass]

...that all of these wouldn't have happened if we had a strategic missile defense.

--Brett Glass

Re:I'm sure that George Wubble-ya Bush will say...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and all of these wouldn't happen if my dad didn't invent information superhighway.

proverb - Martin Luther King

[Technodummy]

If I cannot do great things, I can do small things in a great way. -Dr. Martin Luther King

Be Pro-Active

[Anonymous Coward]

We must be pro-active, not re-active to terrorism.
Declare war on all terrorist training sites no matter
what country they might be in. If the country harboring
the terrorist refuse to allow us in, then declare
war on them because they are part of the problem.

Re:Be Pro-Active

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

Basicaly what you propose is:

Join forces with England, France, Itally, Germany, Spain and Portugal and sail abroad to reconquer the empires and colonies these countries once had, right ?

Wrong. Some of these countires are now much diferent from the time they were conquered by those nations. They won't fall this easy, and if US starts bulling them some former colonies that now have shit loads of military power (China, India, etc...) may react.

This is time of re-action, and it must be precisely aimed agains the ones who blown the buildings. Nail them down, just like you did whith Japan.

After this is acomplished, it'll be the time to be pro-active, not with weapons, but with money, technology and support to help them create developed nations, with all the things we take for granted: well paid jobs, health care, education, etc.

This was done in Japan and Germany once and it worked. These nations are between US's best allies, even after beeing leveled down by your military machine.

Remember this, you don't make friends by force, hiting them. you make friends HELPING them and caring them.

FUCK ISLAM

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just hypocritical SHIT to say they are peace loving.

SO FUCK YOU LADY AND FUCK YOUR EVIL RELIGION.

This may be a tragedy, but it can be much worse

[Anonymous Coward]

If the government decides to outlaw 'hacking tools', making DMCA part of constitution, and building missile defence systems, just to prevent 'criminal activities'. Now that the terrorist made their moves, such legal acts can happen very soon.

it doesn't matter who is responsible

[Scrooge919]

Okay, we could spend a lot of time and resources figuring out exactly *who* is responisble for the attacks, and we should. But that should not delay our retaliation...

We should commit all necessary resources to tracking down and executing EVERY known terrorist and terrorist sympathizer (for lack of a better phrase) in the world.

This is something that will have to be done eventually anyway. It's just a matter of who has the resolve to do it. And we, as Americans, need to send a clear message to would-be terrorists that they can absolutely not get away with this.

That's my rational solution to the problem...

Now what I'd REALLY like to see happen is the terrorists caught, publicly tortured mercilessly, then gruesomely executed.

Then do the same to their families.
Then do the same to their friends.
Then do the same to everyone they've ever known.
And don't stop until the body count is 10x the number that were killed by these bastards.

But of course that's not the rational solution, although I doubt many Americans would be upset if such a thing were implemented.

What should be done with the hijackers' remains

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are ever found and identified, of course.

Feed those remains to some pigs.

If, as is likely, the hijackers had been followers of Osama bin Laden or else were in some Palestinian terrorist group, that would be a punishment suitable for their religion, since Islam, like Orthodox Judaism, views the pig as a wicked beast, not to be eaten.

Pearl Harbor? I wish it was that easy.

[frAme57]

At least the aftermath of Pearl Harbor was easy to grasp and propose solutions for: Japanese national forces attacked American national assets, so the US government sent forces to pound Japan into submission. But we do not have a common enemy to unify against and revile. We do not have an island or a country at which to direct our anger and our weapons.

We weren't attacked by a known enemy. It is more like being mugged and beaten in broad daylight, and not even getting a look at the bastard. And to top it, everyone around you acts as though they didn't see a thing. And this is on a previoiusly unimaginable scale.

So what do we do? Years of painstaking detective work resulting in a trial in the Hague? Anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Nuke the entire Middle East into one big godforsaken glass parking lot? Very satisfying. And it would probably solve the question of Jerusalem by making it uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years. But its a stupid, knee-jerk idea. Don't forget all the cries of "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" immediately after OKC. Invasion and occupation? Volleys of cruise missles? Impractical and expensive, not to mention where and against who?

Right now it would be a relief to go down to the recruiting office and say "I wanna go kill me some fuckin' (insert demographic), sir" But all I could do was drop off a pint at the bloodbank and stare at Peter Jennings and the Talking Head Band all day.

btw, i do not mean to criticize Jon Katz, just the comparison to Pearl Harbor. He's not the first or only one to mention it - he just gave me an opening to bring it up. I sincerely hope he (and all concerned) finds his people alive and well.

Australia is in shock

[pentae]

My entire company here is not doing any work, we are just watching the live CNN feeds and we really feel for you under stress like these attacks. What everyone thought could never happen has.

As I understand it our country will be providing assistance should the United States call upon our resources. Our Prime Minister was in the thick of it all and our country is in just as much shock as you all are..

Good One from Katz

[hbo]

A poignant and insightful piece from Jon Katz. I generally have strong reactions to his stuff. I usually hate it, but occasionally something he writes hits the spot for me. In this piece, his often (to my taste) overly frothy prose is .slightly muted, and matches his subject perfectly. The shocking irony of one NYC news anchor turning back to his monitor, which a moment before had clearly shown the second airliner approaching the WTC, and wondering about the cause of the explosion was not lost on me. In this Pearl Harbor, we have all been eyewitnesses, with a minimum of filtering.

I doubt that the anger against the probable involvement of fundamentalist muslim terrorism is any more virulent than that aimed at the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, but surely it has arisen more quickly in the age of instant messaging? Another thing that strikes me, not for the first time, but with weightier impact, is the opportunity to hear dissident voices. Among the thousands of posts on Slashdot today are a wide variety of attitudes and opinions about how to approach these events, what the truth may or may not be, and what responses to offer to them. This stuff rarely played out so thoroughly in public before the Internet. It remains to be seen if this airing of reason and emotion will make a difference in the shape of the public response to these events, but it's fascinating to watch the process unfold.

Peace unto you, Jon Katz. I pray to whatever god may be that your friends are safe, or if not, that you can find your way to safety on the other side of your grief.

Geeze. Who's being "overly frothy" now? 8)

Re:What repercussions (???)

[garren_bagley]

Same planet, different worlds.

This is not a legal matter. I don't want to "bring these people to justice." I want to ensure that nobody can ever do this again. This is war.

please mod that up

[Anonymous Coward]

So few understand that aspect of Islam.

Friday, October 13 - GAZA - Calls to kill US.

[Anonymous Coward]

Palestinian Official Television Broadcasts call for Killing Jews and Americans

Following are excerpts from a sermon given Friday, October 13, in the Zayed bin Sultan Aal Nahyan mosque in Gaza, broadcast live on the official
Palestinian Authority television. The speaker is Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the PA appointed "Futwa Council" and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza:
"None of the Jews refrain from committing any possible evil. If the Labor party commits the evil and the crime, the Likud party stands by it; and if
the Likud party commits the evil and the crime, the Labor party stands by it? The Jews are Jews, whether Labor or Likud? They do not have any
moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They all want to distort truth, but we are in possession of the truth."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists are the Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our women and
desecrated our holy places and sacred sites. They are the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty
said: "Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the
believers?"

"O brothers in belief, this is the case of the Jews and their habitual conduct, and what happened yesterday, and has been going on for two weeks,
and before that for many years, and which will be repeated in future years unless we stand up like men and unless we have the known Muslim
position, [the position] of those who wage Jihad in the path of Allah, those who defend their rights and who sacrifice all that is dear to them."
"O brothers in belief, the beautiful bride has a costly price and dowry? Our bride is paradise, o brothers in belief. ?The cost and the dowry of this
bride, the dowry of this paradise, is that we fight in the path of Allah, and kill and be killed."

"Allah has purchased from the believers their persons and their property in return for the promise that they shall have paradise, for they fight in the
cause of Allah, and they slay the enemy and are slain. This is a promise that He [Allah] has made incumbent upon Himself, as set out in the Torah,
and Gospel and the Koran"

"We say to the Jews, and we say to Clinton, and we say to all those who supported the Jews and still cooperate with the Jews, we say to them, that
this will not shake us, we are the Palestinian people, who are positioned in the land of the Isra' and Mi'raj. It will not shake a single hair of ours. Our
determination will not sway. We will raise the banner of Jihad?"

"America and Europe and the world were shocked by the kidnapping of three tramps, the kidnapping of three wretched soldiers, and the killing of
two in Ramallah. But their feelings were not moved, and they did not shudder when they say the children Muhammad ad-Durrah and other women,
and men, and youths - being martyred by cannons and missiles, and all the barbaric instruments and the Jews possess."
"They were moved, for the sake of five persons, and the world went into turmoil and it will not stop for Clinton or for the old hag Albright, they will
not be relieved, and they will not cease to be concerned, and they will not rest until the Jews return to their families. But as for the Palestinians, as for
this pure blood, it can go to Hell in the eyes of the Americans and Europe and the Jews"

"This is the truth, O Brothers in belief. From here, Allah and almighty has called upon us not to ally with the Jews or the Christians, not to like them,
not to become their partners, not to support them, and not to sign agreements with them. And he who does that, is one of them, as Allah said: "O you
who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies, for they are allies of one another. Who from among you takes them as allies will
indeed be one of them"

"The Jews are the allies of the Christians, and the Christians are the allies of the Jews, despite the enmity that exists between them. The enmity
between the Jews and the Christians is deep, but all of them are in agreement against the monotheists - against those who say, 'There is no God but
Allah and Muhammad is his messenger,' that is they are against you, O Muslims."

"Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed - we shall not forget Haifa, and Acre, and the Galilee, and Jaffa, and the Triangle and the Negev, and the
rest of our cities and villages. It is only a matter of time. The weak will not remain forever weak, and the strong will not remain forever strong? If we
are weak today? and we are not able to regain our rights, then at least we have to pass on the banner - waving high - to our children and
grandchildren?"

"None of the factions is allowed to stand on the sidelines at this stage, or not to think well of avenging our pure martyrs and wounded. ?Our people
must unite in one trench, and receive armaments from the Palestinian leadership, to confront the Jews. By Allah, the Jews, O brothers in belief, do
not know, nor have they ever known throughout history, anything but force and Jihad in the path of Allah. The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long
as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. That is the case of the Jews."

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.
Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them - and those who stand by them - they are all in one trench, against the
Arabs and the Muslims - because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it to be the outpost
of their civilization - and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the crusaders, hanging over the necks of the monotheists,
the Muslims in these lands. They wanted the Jews to be their spearhead"

"Let us put our trust in Allah, close ranks, and unite our words, and the slogan of us all should be, 'Jihad! Jihad! For the sake of Palestine, and for the
sake of Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa!'"

"We will not give up a single grain of soil of Palestine, from Haifa, and Jaffa, and Acre, and Mulabbas [Petah Tikva] and Salamah, and Majdal
[Ashkelon], and all the land, and Gaza, and the West Bank?"

"Allah, deal with the Jews, your enemies and the enemies of Islam. Deal with the crusaders, and America, and Europe behind them, O Lord of the
worlds."

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Steve B]

We rebuilt Japan because we had a few fists full of shame from murdering more civilians than a few airplanes could ever kill.

Let's get real, folks -- we rebuilt Japan for the same reason we rebuilt Western Europe: to aid our side in the Cold War.

Make this thread a book

[TedSbar]

This thread needs to be turned into a book. Is there an easy way to do this? If there is a way to pull pages in and format them I would do it. This has been the best place to get info Thanks

Suicide Attacker motivated by religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

I often wonder why someone would take his/her own life for a cause. I mean, how does the cause benefit them if they are dead? I often think of religion as a reason - by serving the the wishes of my clearly psycho God who hates the U.S., I will can enjoy a better "after life".

...which is why I wish people would stop worshiping false idols.

I suppose you could argue religion prevents some people from commiting crimes. I wonder what the ratio is?

New point of failure

[Gorimek]

That might be worth exploring, but remember that adding functionality to disable pilot control over the plane carries the risk of that circuitry malfunctioning, and bringing down non hijacked planes.

Re:New point of failure

[dolanh]

You're not really adding much functionality that isn't already in place in modern airliners. Just protocol.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[borgheron]

Bzzzzzzzt. We rebuilt Japan because we needed a stratigic ally in the area, not because we felt "guilty".

Fewer lives were sacrificed by using the bomb than would have been in an invasion.

GJC

WTC Not Real Target

[Sly Mongoose]

There are people who abhor the idea that if you don't want to face east and put your butt in the air five times a day, you don't have to. That if you are female you can wear a pair of shorts and a halter-top in public. That you are not subject to the summary whim of uneducated clerics.

These people are horrified that others live this way, and that the Finger of Retribution does not strike down from the clouds above to wipe away the stain. They are horrified because the continued refusal of the divinity to take action casts their entire, restrictive, fundamentalist creed into question. So they have decided to be the agent of the divinity; to rain down fire from above, and to scourge the wrongdoers personally.

They are not attacking the people, the buildings, or the government of the day. Their attack is really targeted against the way of life; the basic freedoms that their own followers secretly covet; the truth that makes a mockery of the lies that they preach.

When I read about requiring travel-documents for inter-state movement, I feel concern. When I hear about demanding ID from anyone who boards a subway train, I feel dismay. When I see people suggesting we grant carte blanche to the FBI's "Carnivore" and similar programmes, I feel fear. Because if these things happen, then the fundamental freedoms that we enjoy will have been eroded. Then the attack will have succeeded. And the bastards will have won.

justifying "terrorism"

[IBgrad]

Regardless of personal ideologies the survival of a nation is dependant upon its citizen's willingness to protect it. Personally I do not believe in using blanket retribution as an effective way of dealing with problems. I am not going to go around beating 6 year olds to make sure that one never messes with my computer. However, as a citizen of this slightly less screwed up than usual nation I am willing to advocate the the immediate and merciless destruction of any and all who oppose our way of life. Up to and including afflicting quasi-innocent bystanders so that their survivors will actually discourage future attacks in a somewhat Machievellian fashion. Such that, the next time something like this happens everyone should line up to turn in the perpatrators to avoid more retribution. In such an environment the likelihood of that next time ever even occurring are greatly reduced. I am willing to do things as a US citizen that I would never do as a person becuase as I US citizen I am more than a person. I am a member of the longest running experiment in Liberty on this planet. While it is flawed, if I want posterity to enjoy even this flawed Liberty then I must be willing to defend it. Yes, war is a terrible thing, but the better we act to root out its seeds the less likely that our children will have to learn that fact firsthand. Yes I am talking terrorism, but we either "fight fire with fire" or surrender and while I generally do not advocate "the ends justify the means" I do when the only other alternative is just "the end." After all, what is terrorism but politicians condemning methods they are not allowed to use themselves.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

Fine. At least you're honest about your intentions. I'm just sick of people advocating the bombing of other countries in retribution, yet continuing to think that they are somehow better than the so-called terrorists that are bombing our country in defense of what they believe in. If you admit that its a savage world and the strongest will dominate, then you're at least looking at things realistically. Just don't pretend that we're all just innocent bystanders. We're no more innocent than the people that we bomb because we don't like what their government is doing.

Yeah, we're rich and have the luxury of the most sophisticated and well-equiped military in the world. Most countries are stuck with hardware we haven't used for 40 years. Yet people still think that they're supposed to challenge our military to a good clean fight or something. Yeah, right. These people are doing what most any other people would do in their situation. They're fighting back the only way they can. We'll do the same. If we're smart and lucky, we'll probably win. I'm just sick to death about hearing all this shit about how it was a "cowardly attack", etc. These people died for what they beleive in, defending it the only way they could. I don't think that makes them cowards. I think that makes them desperate and devoted.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Anonymous Coward]

What did any of the thousands of innocent victims do to these terrorists? You sound almost proud of these murderers... I hope that I'm just misreading your reply.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

I'm not proud of it. I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice. As to your question of what those people did, they did the same as the rest of us. They were citizens of the US, and responsible for the acts of the US government. I'm just trying to say that there is no way we can separate ourselves from the actions of our government. We are responsible. We seem to forget this much too easily.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[AlefOne]

These people are doing what most any other people would do in their situation. They're fighting back the only way they can.


You are insane, or evil, or both if you think for one instant that this is the way most people would act. Most people would not kill tens of thousands of random humans in cold-blooded calculation just for some nebulous 'revenge.' Tell me, what practical effect will this mass murder have for the downtrodden of the world? Will it make their lives easier? To ask it is to know the answer.

Your pathetic attempt at justifying the frightful slaughter of innocent civilians is sickening.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

You are insane, or evil, or both if you think for one instant that this is the way most people would act.

In the same position, I believe they would. I don't think that makes me insane or evil though. These were not just random humans either. They were targeting US citizens. I also don't believe it was for some "nebulous revenge." Was our bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki done for revenge? We killed thousands of "innocent" people. Why? Because we considered it acceptable rather than lose our own troops in a military assault. These people HAVE declared war on us. But they're not going to be stupid and challenge our military to a good clean fight. That's as much suicide as their deaths on those planes. They want to fight us and they don't want to lose. They are using the same logic we did in nuking Japan. They can't afford to lose their people in a conventional fight and they can't afford to lose. So they will fight when and where they can and kill as many of us as possible.

Now, I don't want to die. I don't want to see others die. Don't misunderstand me and think that I'm supporting their actions. I'm just saying that I understand their actions. Like any actions, there will be consequences. Listen to the president and congress to find out what those consequences will be. Just as they've said, it is a war. It's just not a conventional war. You can't expect them to challenge the US military to a duel. You can't expect them to fight clean. They will fight to win, just as the US has always done. We're just getting our first up-close look at war in a really long time. We don't like it. Perhaps we should consider that when we're sending military aid all over the place and doling out cash and weapons to every tin pot dictator we happen to support at the moment to get our oil fix.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[AlefOne]

These were not just random humans either. They were targeting US citizens.

Civilians, children included, not simply citizens.

Because we considered it acceptable rather than lose our own troops in a military assault.

You state only part of the reasoning. Plenty of Japanese citizens, military and civilian, would have died in any conventional invasion of Japan. The Allies island-hopping prelude to the expected invasion was convincing proof that obtaining a Japanese surrender, via invasion, would have been a protracted, costly affair for all sides.

These people HAVE declared war on us.

First, you don't know who "these people" are, so how can you claim this? Second, there has been no formal declaration of war, unless you know something no one else knows.

They are using the same logic we did in nuking Japan.

This is wrong. A declared state of war existed between Japan and the US. Truman's diary explicitly records he ordered an attack on a purely military objective: I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. (Truman quoted in Robert H. Ferrell, Off the Record: The Private Papers of Harry S. Truman (New York: Harper and Row, 1980) pp. 55-56.) Truman called Hiroshima a 'military base' in a radio address to the nation, so either he's lying through his teeth or he really was misinformed aout the nature of the target when he gave approval.

In fact, we did not use the bomb on a purely military target, and in that, we were wrong. But to catagorize the decision to use nuclear weapons in a declared war as equivalent to the terrorists decision to ram civilian airliners into skyscrapers without warning is disingenuous at best.

Perhaps we should consider that when we're sending military aid all over the place...

And what will you say when we are terrorized for not sending military aid to a particular group? We can't sit in splendid isolation within our borders. We'll anger groups regardless of the decisions (excellent, average, poor) we make as a country interacting with the rest of the globe. We'll be damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

The civilized world needs to demand an end to terror against noncombatants. This demand must be backed up with effective action, up to and including military retaliation, for active or passive support of terrorist organizations by governments. If we don't demand this, every disaffected group nursing a supposed wrong will feel justified in imposing their demands, right or wrong, upon the world by the cold-blooded, calculating slaughter of children and other innocents.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

The Allies island-hopping prelude to the expected invasion was convincing proof that obtaining a Japanese surrender, via invasion, would have been a protracted, costly affair for all sides.

Are you saying we nuked them because we were concerned about their losses?? I don't buy that for a second and I defy you to dig up some evidence of it. We were concerned about our own losses due to the invasion being "a protracted, costly affair" for our side.

First, you don't know who "these people" are, so how can you claim this?

True, I'm just assuming they are who our intelligence agencies and others believe them to be. It has yet to be proven.

Second, there has been no formal declaration of war, unless you know something no one else knows.

Was there a formal declaration of war when we invaded Korea? Vietnam? Iraq? Anyone else we've bombed? Anybody at all since WWII? Wars exist whether we have nice little pieces of paper that say we're at war or not.

In fact, we did not use the bomb on a purely military target, and in that, we were wrong.

Just wrong? Not evil or cowardly? What about Nagasaki? Just wrong there too? Why? Because we had a piece of paper saying we're at war?

But to catagorize the decision to use nuclear weapons in a declared war as equivalent to the terrorists decision to ram civilian airliners into skyscrapers without warning is disingenuous at best.

I believe Bin Laden's group has been warning us of a large attack for the last several weeks. We send a couple planes over and destroy 2 of Japan's cities. Bin Laden's group takes a couple of our planes and destroys 2 of our largest buildings. I really don't believe that that's any different.

And what will you say when we are terrorized for not sending military aid to a particular group?

I don't know that it'll be a real problem. Switzerland doesn't seem to have a big terrorist problem. We can still have relations with the rest of the world. We just need to not take sides during wars. (before you jump out of your chair, hear me out) I know that neutrality isn't always possible. WWII is a good example. Switzerland didn't want to get involved, but it did anyway, even if only behind the scenes in order to keep the Nazis from invading. And if it hadn't been for the US, Russia, and Britain defeating the Nazis, Switzerland would have been occupied eventually anyway. The bottom line is that we HAVE chosen to take sides in many wars. Some with direct aid and some by funding or arming one of the sides in the conflict. With that choice comes a price. We WILL be attacked. Terrorism is what our government calls it and the people of this country are ignorant enough to believe that. It's really just plain old war. We're just not used to it taking place on our territory. War is something that happens over in Europe and the Middle East. It doesn't happen in the US. -- It does now.

The civilized world needs to demand an end to terror against noncombatants.

What exactly is the "civilized world"? Are we part of it? What are the qualifications? How many of those have we broken?

If we don't demand this, every disaffected group nursing a supposed wrong will feel justified in imposing their demands, right or wrong, upon the world by the cold-blooded, calculating slaughter of children and other innocents.

I suppose you're lamenting the fact that conventional wars can't really happen anymore. The US is too powerful. We can send our military in to kick the ass of practically anybody we have a problem with. We just whip up a convenient excuse and the people at home will cheer the war on. One day we just decide that we suddenly care about how some group or other is being treated. Now that's not really why we're there, otherwise we would've done something long ago. But it gives the people at home a warm fuzzy feeling about the good deed their country is doing. Why do we lie to ourselves though? Why do we think that we can take part in wars with impunity?

Why do we think we make make the rules for the world? We don't like drugs. It doesn't matter that nobody is forcing them on us. We're gonna tell other countries what they're allowed to grow and what they can't grow. We're going to arm and train people in other countries that will side with us so they can maim and massacre those that don't side with us. Is that evil and cowardly too? Nah. We just gave them the weapons and training. We're not responsible for them after that. We are one seriously deluded nation.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[AlefOne]

I really don't believe that that's any different.


Well, that says everything. Our worldviews are totally different, and there really is no point in continuing this conversation. I am grateful that your views are those of a very small minority, otherwise, we would be living beneath the boot of the barbarians.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

I am grateful that your views are those of a very small minority, otherwise, we would be living beneath the boot of the barbarians.

Or we simply wouldn't be hated enough for others to wish this kind of retribution on us. You've done absolutely nothing to rebutt my arguments. I'm sad and afraid that there are many like you in this country who will act irrationally and violently in response to what has happened. Who delude themselves into thinking that the acts committed by the US government are somehow justifiable while, yet when anyone else attacks us, they are terrorists and cowards. You obviously don't want to think about it, you simply want blood like so many other Americans. I suspect you'll get it too. And then I suspect we'll see a lot more American blood spilled. I hope you'll be happy with the consequences of our actions as a country.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[AlefOne]

Or we simply wouldn't be hated enough for others to wish this kind of retribution on us.

You have not supported this assertion. I do not believe we can maintain a Swiss-like neutrality in the world. England tried to follow the course of neutrality and appeasement in the 1930s, and the result was worldwide horror. The Men of Munich were clearly wrong, although they were men of high principle and took what they thought was the best course of action. The results were nearly fatal to Europe.

We are a superpower, like it out not, and we cannot absent ourselves from world affairs. Any choice we make, including the choice to sit on our hands and do nothing, has the potential to anger those who feel mistreated by civilization.

You've done absolutely nothing to rebutt (sic) my arguments.

It is amazingly sad that you think your soi-disant criticisms of American policy in WWII require rebuttal. The US wasn't perfect, and was terribly wrong on occasion, but the Allies were overwhelmingly in the right. To attempt to remove the slightest blackness of the blot of evil that is civilian terror by attempting a comparison of Allied actions in WWII says far more about you than it says about anything else. There is a time and place for self-criticism, but mixing introspection about historical motives of two generations past with fingerpointing about current events isn't productive. Everyone's emotions are too raw to permit rational, considered discourse along this vein.

I will tell you this, Americans don't set out to kill innocent children, and Americans don't rejoice in the horrible death of innocent civilians. To insinuate that we deserve this, that it is simply payback for our wicked ways, is outrageous.

who will act irrationally and violently

I haven't called for violence to anyone but those responsible for planning this mass murder, and those who give sanctuary to them. This is not an irrational course of action.

Who delude themselves into thinking that the acts committed by the US government are somehow justifiable...

Learn to read. You blew right past my contention that the US was wrong to bomb Hiroshima, despite the argument that it would save lives. A military target should have been selected, and it appears that is exactly what Truman ordered. Ends alone aren't sufficient to justify the means. This applies to the terrorists, too.

At least the US has the figleaf of ending a long, bloody war that would have consumed many on both sides if continued. It wasn't unmixed evil to want to end WWII as quickly as possible. Tell me what moral principle or life saving argument applies to the WTC attack?

You obviously don't want to think about it, you simply want blood like so many other Americans.

Get you head out of your, errr, backside. The vast majority of people in this country are agreed that we shouldn't strike out in blind fury, but that we should find those responsible for planning, executing, and enabling this attack, and punishing them. And we will do so.
Had Americans simply wanted blood, we would have had it by now. But that isn't what is happening.

I hope you'll be happy with the consequences of our actions as a country.

I hope so too. If we find and punish the guilty, and protect the innocent, and do it with the support of the rest of the world, then we will have done the Right Thing.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

First of all, according to a friend of mine who was an Army Ranger and has seen some real action, Three Kings is pretty damn ridiculous.

As for which country we should fight in this case, obviously it should be the ones that support terrorists like these. Countries must be held accountable for the actions of their citizens. Have there been successful wars as such? Well, terrorism has really only developed to it's present civilian-targeting objective-less passive-aggressive form over the last few decades, so no, not really. How should it be fought? Like the war we did win. Do I expect them to react like the Japanese? Of course not. Japan acted out of arrogance, wheras most terrorists act out of ill-defined nihlistic anger. Do I think a Marshall-plan-esque solution based on economic development and military-political pressure could work? Hell yes.

Obviously, war is not pretty, or good. But it is sometimes necessary to make people who use violence understand what they're bringing on themselves, especially when they're only aware of a small part of it. Whatever it takes to break their destructive cycles is justified.

WHAT price to pay?

[Tuxinatorium]

These were SUICIDE attacks. No amount of retaliation can deter a suicide attack.

The Truth Comes Home

[looie]

When Israelis kill Palestinian women and babies, Americans are silent. When American-trained Argentinian death squads were dropping "communists" out of airplanes to "disappear" them, Americans were silent. When the US gov't fought to prevent free AIDS drugs from being given to South Africans, Americans were silent. When Christians were slaughtering Muslims in Croatia and Bosnia, Americans were silent. When Irish Americans were funding the IRA bombings, Americans were silent. When the US gov't was supporting Batista, Somoza and Noriega, Americans were silent. When the US gov't was funding the Contra murders of innocent villagers, Americans were silent. When the US gov't engineered the murder of Allende, Americans were silent. When the US gov't turned away shiploads of Jews fleeing Hitler's Final Solution, Americans were silent.

Now, the pain of the rest of the world has come to us, and there's a great outcry. All around the world, ordinary, innocent people are living everyday with events such as we have just experienced -- events frequently paid for with American money and carried out with American weapons. Are we somehow so special, that we should inflict and allow to be inflicted, so much misery and death on the rest of the world, and bear none of our own?

Perhaps, some dead men have answered that question already.

mp

Re:The Truth Comes Home

[Anonymous Coward]

Many thanks for your words.

Here in Germany there is a strange discussion ongoing - about the opinion that the USA are very responsible for what has happened.

I wouln't see it this way. The responsibility is every time by the actor, not the victim.

Your posting makes it clear that also on your side of the ocean are some people which are asking theirselves.

greetz, floh

Jon, you have truly offended me this time.

[Jin Wicked]

I absolutely cannot believe that you posted this today. You could have at least waited a few days for people to recover from the shock before you got on your Slashdot soapbox and started rambling about your usual crackpot ideas.

It figures you'd find some way to work a technology theme into a plane hijacking. E-mail probably had very little to do with this attack, but you'd love to find a way to work it into your self-appointed role as representative for the geek community, wouldn't you? Technology Armageddon? What on earth does that have to do with a plane running into a building? Maybe if some 7337 h4x0r script kiddies hijacked the plane...then MAYBE. These guys are reputed to have been using knife-like weapons. Those are hardly cutting-edge tech, Jon. And people willing to die to make a point go back a long, long way.

I was proud and grateful for Slashdot for the first time today...it was the only site I could get news on this morning for several hours, and in between Hemos and Taco's work, along with the /. posters, I knew more about what was going on than anyone else when I went into work. However, I find myself extremely sick to come home and have read this. I don't blame you for being upset, Jon, (we all are) but did it ever occur to you to post a comment like everyone else about it? What makes you think your personal little tech-explains-everything rambling deserves front page status along with the ACTUAL NEWS ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING?

I agree with the other poster who said this was absolutely inappropriate for posting today. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I drew a picture of how I feel to calm myself down, in spite of the fact that I sliced my thumb open yesterday and writing makes it bleed around the stitches. Please print it out and hang it over your monitor for the next time a major tragedy like Columbine or this act of terrorism occurs. I feel like I'm going to throw up now.

Jon Katz: Truly Insensitive Jackass

Re:Jon, you have truly offended me this time.

[Anonymous Coward]

These guys are reputed to have been using knife-like weapons. Those are hardly cutting-edge tech, Jon. And people willing to die to make a point go back a long, long way.

But knives are "cutting-edge" tech--and excellent for making points with.

Bad technological solution

[gad_zuki!]

I'd like to see the psychological testing on two average pilots in their steel shell watching passenger after passenger being executed until they do what they're told. Obviously crashing into a building would be counter-productive but telling the pilot to, say , land in NY instead of LA would probably work.

Pilots are people and I'd like to see the success rate of remote control landings on big airliners.

Only One Answer

[NetFu]

As a "native American" (having grown up in this great country), the only thought going through my mind after seeing and hearing the details of what happened this morning are that death can only be answered with death. You can ask "When does it stop?" all you want, but that simple concept remains and has kept us safer than most in this world for decades.

Anyone in this world MUST be made to fully understand that attacks like this one on our fellow American citizens can only be answered with the total annihilation of the perpetrators, whoever they are. There can be no compromise on this, no yielding. They must understand that when they kill some of our citizens, we will swiftly kill ALL of them in response and we will NEVER stop until they are completely destroyed. One way or another, they must understand that an act of violence like we painfully witnessed today is just not worth it.

For us American citizens, we have to remember to be strong and united. MOST non-native American citizens are here because they love this country and sincerely want to be here (I should know, my wife and most of our friends are foreigners), so racist "witch-hunts" are unacceptable in response to this event. And if the end-result of this is a war against anyone standing against us then we must ALL be prepared for those consequences. I don't want my sons to be pulled into any war resulting from this any more than anyone else, but if that is what it comes to then so be it.

My family will stand up without hesitation to fight for this country as we have in generations past -- after this difficult day, we must all remember what it means to be American citizens.

Fucking Idiot Liberals

[SensitiveMale]

I don't give a DAMN who is responsible. Now we have the ability to wipe to earth of all of these evil soulless bastards.

Who many of the fucking liberals don't realize is that these terrorists are evil. You can say that violence begets violence and you can sing 'Kum-by-ya' until the second coming of Christ but the bottom line is that there are evil people in this world and these people DO NOT understand anything but force.

Personally, I think it would be a huge boon to mankind if we could get rid weapons and do things peacefully. But WE aren't making that choice. As long as you have soulless bastards out there who will kill because they can, we need to arm ourselves.

Since the dawn of mankind the aggressor has ALWAYS set the ground rules.

What did the West do to force Hitler to invade Europe?

What did the West do to force the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan?

What did the West do to force Iraq to invade Kuwait?

What did the West do to force the PLO to continually attack Israel? At the last summit, the Isreali PM offered MORE than Arafat wanted and he still turned him down. This is how they hold on to power, by creating enemies and terrorist attacks.

Ronald Reagon put the fear of God into Khaddafi when he bombed him and you noticed that Libya's terrorist activities dropped like a rock.

Decades ago, no terrorist would dare attack the USA. Due to the inactivity of Clinton during the earlier attacks on the WTC, the US embassy a while ago, and the U.S.S. Cole the terrorists become more and more bold.

We should not bring these animals to justice. We should kill them, in their on land, and make a major example of them.

As long as these GOD DAMN liberals continually say 'We need to understand them' , 'We need to end the cycle of violence' this will never end.

The USA did not start this. The USA is not responsible in any way for this. By God, we do need to finish this.

Re:Fucking Idiot Liberals

[Flambergius]

I was hoping someone non-AC would answer. Talking to an AC about matters this sensitive is something I don't want to do.

My political views probably do not align with any liberal party. However, I will be more then willing to carry that label in the sense you seem to give it. So, I am one of those Fucking Idiot Liberals. And I am not an American, but a Finn.

To begin with, I find myself in third or forth message in this thread and I feel the following is past-due. I would like express my shock at the this horrible attack. I offer my deepest condolances to all the victims, their families, loved ones and friends. I also wish for strenght and courage for the American people at this traumatic moment. Furthermore, I assure for my own very small part that you do not stand alone, in this all democracies are together.

For there to be peace in anywhere, someone has either had to stop the cycle of violence and revenge or one of the participants has been destroyed completely.

Your examples of pure evil are not what you seem to think they are.

Hitler was a madman, and something that could be thought as pure evil. It could be said that West was innocent to him starting the WW2. And it wouldn't be more then a simplification of the truth if we were only to look at the events of 1930's. However, the West is very must bear the blame for creating a political and economical situation in Germany and elsewhere that not only made Hitler's rise to power a possibility but inevitable. The draconian and vengeful (of previous war) terms of German surrender after WW1 demanded by the French and the betrayal of their ally Italy by the French and British are the single most important reason for the failure of the Weimar Germany and creation of the Nazi/Facist block in central Europe.

Soviet Union was engaged in a war of world domination with the West, be it a cold war, when they invaded Afghanistan. There were many similar events during that war and in that war all participants some much lost their sense of right and wrong that all participants could be equally held responsible for all actions during that time. They were acting out of percived necessity, which in turn was motivated by fear and hared for the enymy, themselves and the nucliar weapons.

Saddam Husein was armed by the West, his army was trained by the West. He was the western weapon against the Islamic Revolution of Ayatollah's Iran. Possibly a worthy cause, as those were during real-politik of the Cold War, but Saddam was and is also a madman of the Hitler-type. The West knew this, they were well aware that he would want to use his military might against the weak but silly rich Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia. They thought they could handle him, they were wrong. How much more guilty could you be?

I will not get into debate over various American Presidents. I'm certain that my wisdom in that is well appreciated.

I agree with you that PLO disgracefully got very creedy a year ago and blundered a very real chance of peace. I was, as I often am, disapointed but not very surprised.

"Since the dawn of mankind the aggressor has ALWAYS set the ground rules."

and

"We should not bring these animals to justice. We should kill them, in their on land, and make a major example of them.

As long as these GOD DAMN liberals continually say 'We need to understand them' , 'We need to end the cycle of violence' this will never end.

The USA did not start this. The USA is not responsible in any way for this. By God, we do need to finish this."

The USA certainly didn't start this. The cycle of violence and injustice may well be as old as the mankind.

The USA certainly didn't deserve this henious act of violence. Never do innocent civilians deserve to die in the hand of terrorists.

I mean no disrespect to the victims nor do I wish to belittle the tragedy when I say that the West is not trying hard enough to end violence and injustice not just in North America or Europe but all around the world. The West is still all too keen to gather more wealth even by means that stifle the development of the Third World. We already have plenty.

The West is guilty of not learning from history. There is are groups of fundamentalist muslims that should not be accepted by any moral man. And mostly they are not, other muslims and even their compatriots shun them. They would find it very hard to gain popularity, support and harbor if not the mistakes maybe by the West. In the past decades the West and SU/Russia have again created a situation which not only makes it possible for a madmen to prosper and come to power, but in fact makes it inevitable. It's the road from Sarajevo to Hitler again, and it saddens me greatly.

Many people are not unduly afraid of violence, pain and death. Some are so because they are desperate, some have an inner conviction that gives them strenght, some are plain mad.

The USA will not be able to Kill'em All. The USA will not be able to make them fear. Violence will not suffice. Violence will not break the cycle. Pacificim and tolerance will break the cycle, free trade between equals will break it, bread and circus will break it.

Now, I am not saying that do not strike back. On the contrary, do strike if it is practical and effective way to prevent immediate new attacks. In the future, do also strike if need be. A country and a society do have the right to protect itself from violent attacks with violence. You are quite correct, aggressor sets the ground rules and thus may gain enormous advantages over others. There's no virtue in being naive.

Temptation of vengence is hard to resists. But it must be. As a practical matter, vengence is bad policy. Vengence is not justice nor is it protecting yourself. It is betrayal of yourself. It is letting others rule our actions. We want to be just, free and moral. We must be so consistantly or we are worthless. Do not make yourself worthless, do not betray yourself and what ever you do not let fear cloud your judgement. If you do, the terrorists have succeeded.

--Flam

Re:Fucking Idiot Liberals

[SensitiveMale]

You miss the point.

One of my points is that evil exists everywhere and it many different forms. In every one of my examples there were evil acts. And as much as you want to rationalize them, you can't. And you saying that we (the west) created them or we trained them is bullshit.

The bottom line is this. There will always be good people in the world. And these people are the ones that we have a civilization with.

But there will always be evil people in this world. And the ONLY thing these people understand is force. We can talk with them (PLO), we can appease them (Hitler), we can ignore them (Soviet Union), but as long as we only talk to them or 'try to understand them' they will always continue their course of evil.
Why? Because they can.

It is not our fault that these evil people do not understand anything but force. And no, we are not 'dropping to their level' by using force. WE ARE PROTECTING OURSELVES!.

The only way to avoid a fight is to train for a fight. And if someone pops you, you beat the shit out of them and you make an example. This keeps people from fighting you again.

There is a world of difference between being armed to the teeth/protecting yourself and provoking attacks.

Re:Fucking Idiot Liberals

[Flambergius]

"You miss the point."

I didn't. It is possible that I didn't spell out my view very clearly, got distracted by the political stuff.

"One of my points is that evil exists everywhere and it many different forms."

There is no inherent good or evil in humans. Every person is able to do both good and evil. I will grand you that a person can become twisted enough to merit use of the word evil.

"It is not our fault that these evil people do not understand anything but force. And no, we are not 'dropping to their level' by using force. WE ARE PROTECTING OURSELVES!."

Dropping to their levels and using force are two separate matters. We can and in this event very likely must use force and it can be done without dropping to "their level". We can also drop to their by other actions which may or may not involve the use of force.

I would have thought my view on use of force was pretty clear from previous. It has to be practical in preventing future aggression, it should not be done to dispense justice or to reap vengence.

I agree that there are evil people in this world. Fact that I belive that they have become so because of their experiences is practically of no consequence. Doesn't really matter if Hitler became "evil" in his childhood, during the WW1 or his stay in prison, does it. Fact remains that he was absolutelly wrong person to have power, delusional megalomaniac, someone who we are well entitled to label evil.

That in no way lessens the burden of respossibility on the West for creating, now and in history, the political, social and economical conditions that allow evil people to prosper and gain power.

A nation and a society has the right and the obligation to defend itself.For us, blessed with the perfect hindsight, it seems inevitable that after gaining power Nazi's would lead Europe to a conflict of large scale. So using force, in practical manner, was a morally justifiable option open for the West after Nazi's came to power. Nothing in that justifies the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler, the person, was not a creation of the West. Hitler's Nazi regime is a direct and perversely logical response to the West's actions. Because of this causal relationship, in my view, Hitler, the ruler, was a creation of the West.

This world is pretty much creation of the West. I fear we will have to fight the Islamic Fundamentalists, they hate us so much that guns must speak before anyone is willing to listen the voice of reason. I think we will win. I sure hope we will. But let's not fool ourselves to thinking that this war wasn't preventable if the West had learned form history and made wiser politics in the last 10-20 years. Also, we are terribly close to making the Palestinians and possibly the many other Arab nations another group we will have to fight.

When will we learn? How many times do we have to make the same mistakes. How many times more will we choose greed and arrogance as our guidelines and do injustice to people that aren't one of "us" until they are have become our evil enemy?

Do you see the difference between out opinions? You look to the current enemy and see an evil that must be destroyed utterly. I see the current enemy as sign of our failure, and, while the current enemy must be fought, I try to see how to make friend of the next one.

--Flam,
who wishes for more hours per day, so many things to write about ... a new pair of wrists would be nice too.

fuck justice

[maxpublic]

That's right - fuck justice. Fuck the entire concept. Today I don't give a rats ass about right or wrong, or what U.S. actions might have precipitated or in some indirect way encouraged the insanity I woke up to this morning. I don't care about my country's past crimes, nor do I have one whit of sympathy for anyone even remotely associated with these acts of barbarism. I don't even care if on some bizarre cosmic scale, like a few idiots preach, that "we had it coming."

Because today I saw thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of my fellow Americans murdered on TV. Right there, up close and personal, so many people died that the town I live in would be *entirely obliterated*, down to every last man, woman, and child, if we had suffered so many deaths.

Screw justice, screw history, screw all of it. I don't care for the rationalizations, the armchair historical and political punditry, or the calls for a non-violent solution. I want revenge.

Yeah, that's right. Call me a barbarian, or whine and moan and wring your hands over how 'violence solves nothing'. Go ahead and tell me how immature or short-sighted I am to advocate unrestrained military vengeance against the people who did this thing to my country, and the nations that harbor them. For that's what I do advocate, without shame or remorse or fear that someone will point a finger and tell me that I'm as bad as the terrorists themselves.

I don't care. I want them dead. I want the nations that harbored and funded and trained and protected these bastards to be bombed again and again and again. If Bush orders a nuclear strike against a nation involved in this crime I wouldn't act to stand in his way.

So be it. They declared war in a manner far more brutal than Pearl Harbor ever was. Let them reap the fruits of their labors in the form of fiery hatred from the skies. And yes, let them learn to fear us, let *everyone* who even contemplates such atrocities learn to fear the extremes we'll go to for vengeance.

For that's what I want. No justice, no trials, just vengeance on an order that will shock the entire world into silence. Vengeance so horrible that future terrorists who plan attacks against the U.S. will be torn apart by their own people for fear of what we'll do to them if the terrorists succeed.

This is what I want. Peaceful solutions will never be enough for me. Not now. It's too late for that.

I want blood.

Max

Re:fuck justice

[J'raxis]

Because today I saw thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of my fellow Americans murdered on TV. Right there, up close and personal, so many people died that the town I live in would be *entirely obliterated*, down to every last man, woman, and child, if we had suffered so many deaths.

So now youve seen all at once what many citizens of these Arab nations see on a daily basis. Except its the Israelis or more extremist groups or even us bombing them. You want us to nuke them? I hope youre prepared when someone sneaks a briefcase bomb into New York and vaporizes it in retaliation.

And if you think Im being cold-hearted to attack you thus Calm the fuck down. You sound as irrational, if not more so, than the men who committed this atrocity. You want revenge. You want blood. You want fiery death to rain down upon them; you want them obliterated, destroyed utterly. You are now reiterating the same rhetoric as you hear their groups spouting off on a daily basis.

Re:fuck justice

[sirgoran]

I have to aggree to a point.

After the Olympic Games in Munich, when the athletes were killed, Israel sent out "Hit Squads" to seek out, hunt down and kill the persons responsible. It took a few years, and many of the members of the teams were killed themselves, but they got the bastards.

Sure, they caught a little flak from the rest of the world for not bringing them to trial, but no one blamed them for doing it. I think that we should do the same. Publicly state that we want sanctions and ask the world to hand the people over for trial. But in the background, hunt down and destroy these bastards.

To use a line loosly from the movie "The Untouchables":

"I want them dead. I want their family dead. I want their house burned to the ground and I want to go there and piss on their ashes."

Fuck the world courts. I want heads on pike poles.

Goran

Re:fuck justice

[maxpublic]

Guess you can't read for shit. I said *I don't care*. You don't like it, too fucking bad. And if that makes me kin to the assholes who did this, then so be it.

So long as they're obliterated I don't give a shit what you think of me. Rail, moan, and whine all you want about the poor Arab nations, about moral highgrounds, about whatever crap strikes your fancy. Get your panties in a bunch all you like; it won't change a thing in my corner of the universe. Or anyone else's, for that matter.

Max

Prayed to who?

[PhilHibbs]

Probably to the same god that the terrorists were praying to as they flew to their deaths. I can't imagine it being anyone other than Islamic fundamentalists that could muster up four suicide crews. What we have to come to terms with is that these aren't evil people, they just believe in a system of right and wrong that puts us firmly in the wrong. To them, we deserve this, and bombing them flat in hasty retalliation will just confirm their belief.

Re:Prayed to who?

[ahde]

It was a different god the terrorists were praying to. They didn't have any illusion that what they were doing was good in any sense of the word. They were reveling in hate and stupidity and shaking with their perverse pleasure and personal fear and self-loathing. How do you live with yourself?

Re:Prayed to who?

[PhilHibbs]

It was a different god the terrorists were praying to.

I presume you also think that the God of the old testament was a different God to the one Katz mentioned.

Yes it IS Pearl Harbor

[Squeeze Truck]

The comparisons are not accidental.

This incident will be used by our government to whip up citizen support for whatever fucked up international adventure they decide to go on next. It won't matter that the country we decide to invade will have had little to do with this, Americans are so mad now I think they'd be willing to kill just about anybody.

Technology/Pearl Harbour analogies

[Rylian]

A couple of comments:
1/ Technology is neutral. It can be used for good or evil. I think we've worked this out by now. It won't save us; it won't kill us. That's up to us.
2/ Pearl Harbour was a large scale military attack against a military target with military objectives (cripple the Pacific Fleet). There's no strategic reason to blow up the WTC and Pentagon. It's just terrorism - causing havoc for the hell of it. The only thing this has in common with PH is that the US is being attacked. I'd call this an atrocity rather than an act of war.

Individual acts?

[Yawnitz]

This was a well-coordinated operation. These were not individual acts. There had to be a leader. Maybe it wasn't a race that motivated someone to do it, but someone had the reason to do it to beging with. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a war crime, and is no small matter. I will say this. The motiviations are not religious at all. The motives were strictly political. The leader behind all of this puts religion behind what he does to get his subordinates to feel as though they are doing their god's will, thus doing the right thing. Driving jets into the sides of colossal buildings while occupied is not the right thing to do. I don't care who you are, it's just not.

What we must do now.

[Artifex]

All our love - Alaska Airlines
-- cards on flowers left at American Airlines' gates in Portland International Airport, as news of the attacks became widely known. (Alaskan Airlines is no stranger to air disaster itself, and two of American Airlines' planes were hijacked and used in the attacks on Tuesday.)

The people of our nation, still reeling in shock from the worst terrorist attack in world history, waste no time in reaching out to each other and showing solidarity:

• When a call for blood donors is given, donation centers across the country are inundated with so many volunteers, so quickly, that many people have to be turned away, while others wait in line for six hours or more;
  
• Travelers, stranded by the FAA's immediate edict grounding all air travel, offer to share rooms in hotels, or rides in their rented cars;
  
• The United States Senate, at the end of a press conference, breaks into a ragged but heartfelt round of "God Bless America."
  

We are in shock. We are in mourning. We are shaken and stirred. But we are not devastated. We will have some extremely difficult days ahead. But we will go back to work, go back to school, go back to the arms of our loved ones, resolved that the grievous assault to our freedom and our lifestyle - which so much of the world is jealous of or seeks to emulate - will not go unanswered.

While our military and police forces do their jobs, it is important that we do ours. Many people wonder how they can further help. At the root of it, heroism is not about being fearless, but about doing what needs to be done despite of fear. If we as individuals in our society want to give heroic effort, we each must resolve to return to work, return to school, and be there for our loved ones.

Finally, we must explain to our children that bad things have happened and a lot of people are no longer with us, but all the police, military personnel, and mommies and daddies especially, are watching to make sure it doesn't happen again, and that we love them and promise to keep them as safe as we can. We must believe it when we say it. And we must keep that promise.

(Cross-posted to Everything2.com)

Starship Troopers

[gga]

Collapsed towers in TV reminds me of a scene in movie Starship Troopers where a bug meteor has hit Buenos Aires. Old wounded man in the movie saying "only good bug is a dead bug" could be an NY resident right now saying "only good muslim is a dead muslim".

No, I'm not an American and I didn't have any friends/relatives/etc. out there in NY. This attack reminds me more about Hiroshima instead of Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was military target, Hiroshima wasn't. Hiroshima bombing wasn't unexpected, just like this wasn't (if you piss off n+666 fundamentalistic terrorist groups, you should be aware that you have an enemy), though the amount of destruction was much larger than what could be expected. Both were also civilian targets and resulting in thousands of dead innocent people.

What I'm afraid now is King George II Bush overreacting - I wouldn't be surprised even if Mr. Bush attacked suspected 'terrorist supporting' countries with nuclear weapons.

Re:Starship Troopers

[ahde]

Hiroshima saved Millions of Japanese lives. Ask a japanese if they hate America because of it.

Gods own country

[Anonymous Coward]

It good to see that the US is so full of Christian forgiveness - Gods own country indeed!

Colman Terrorist Lanterns

[Anonymous Coward]

Lanterns must be banned!!!

Just like encryption, they permitted horrors like this one to occur.

Then nobody will be able to sit in the hills with a lantern and plot the downfall of western civilization.

Sorry for your losses

[Anonymous Coward]

"Technology turns planes into weapons"

Not true, Technology makes planes, people turn planes into Weapons.

Sorry for your losses, America.

Well done, Jon.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a brave move to publically say what you're thinking about an event like this- you're opening yourself up to a truly scary amount of censure and shouting from people who think your views "aren't appropriate", whatever they are. That's why I've not been commenting at all. Well done Jon for being braver than I am.

An attack on all peace-loving nations

[cobyrne]

As the president of Ireland said, when the final death toll is read out in the weeks to come, it will contain names from every peace loving nation on earth. We already know that there was an Irish woman and her young daughter in one of the planes. No doubt there will be more.

My prayers to both those that I know and those that I do not know in New York and throughout the U.S.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Anonymous Coward]

> Japan acted out of arrogance,

No it didn't. Japan acted for reasons of imperialistic expansion - economic, territory and power.

> wheras most terrorists act out of ill-defined
> nihlistic anger

No they don't. That is a silly Hollywood fantasy. Experience in Northern Ireland shows terrorism to be a political act enacted by people with clear motivations and with clear objectives. Most terrorists have a very clear ideology. It provides an organised way of striking back against States who are presumed to be oppressors.

Terrorism can be *contained* by military means but it can only be *solved* politically.

About technologies

[Ektanoor]

First I would like to send my condolences to all victims and their relatives of this horrendous crime. We are all with you.

Now about Katz:
"Technology turns planes into weapons. It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories."

No it is not technology that turns things into weapons. It is something inside us: the animal instincts. Instincts that are far from the human mind, instincts that lead people to hate, fear, rancour and submission. For terrorists there are no weapons. Their weapons is our emotions.

According to certain reports these guys took these airplanes with knifes, tear gas and nearly bare hands. And used these airplanes as kamikadze cruiser missiles. Where is technology here? They used everything in their hands, from a knife to an airplane, to give a blow in our souls. For them, the cost of tens of thousands of lives means nothing. For them the destruction of one of them main world trade centers means nothing to their pockets. For them, your fear and hatred means everything.

These people did not choose military or economical targets. They choosed symbols. They didn't choose an airplane as an high technological weapon. They choose it because it was big and has lots of fuel. These guys didn't decide to destroy thousands of American lives and billions of dollars of property. They choose the souls of millions of America's and World citizens to leave a tool of terror.

These guys don't need ballistic missiles, laser weapons, GPS, sattelites, washing machines, Ferraris, TV sets or Internet. They need you. And they will use everything in their hand, from sticks to airports to leave in you soul a permanent wound. Not long ago they used boats and dynamite. Today they used airplanes and knifes. Tomorrow they may use anything else. But they will always use your horror.

However you should not give ground for your emotions to overcome you mind. A terrorist is nothing in front of those who cold-mindly and objectively target him. Not with cruisers and last cry stealth airplanes. But with the aim the he no longer will be a menace to our relatives, friends, co-citizens and countries. Terrorists can only hide beyond your fear and hatred. But when mind and justice comes up, he has no place to run. Like President Putin said, when chechen terrorists struck in Daghestan: "We will go after every terrorist.. We will nail him, even if he hides up in the toilet".

Over the top newspaper editorials

[ChrisDolan]

Numerous editorials in todays NY Post have advocated ignoring the law and using racist, mob logic to correct the injustice of yesterday's attack. These frothing calls to action are not only irresponsible, they are barbarous.

"Who is responsible for yesterday's carnage? That's no great mystery."
- editorial 4006

The law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. Until there is concrete evidence pointing to the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, there can be no action. If the US attacks without evidence, then we are terrorists as well, and would deserve all the condemnation we are piling on our - still unknown - attackers.

"To hell with Bill Clinton's 'gather the evidence and proceed to court' approach."
- editorial 4022

"The response ... should be as simple as it is swift - kill the bastards. No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them in a court of law. I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to."
- Steve Dunleavy editorial 3999

Both of these editorialists call for dismissing the due process on which our justice system is based. They call for the removal of equal treatment under the law. These demands for extreme measures are demands for the creation of a dictatorship, of a police state. Assassinations, executions without trials, condemnation without evidence - these are the hallmarks of regimes like Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao Tse Tung's China and Hitler's Germany.

Consistent and reasoned responses are imperiitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism.

Racism, the Middle East and The Airplanes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Having read a few of the posts here, I just had to reply to this.

Appologies in advance for the Anonymous Coward posting, but I've yet to register, and won't be registering at all.

Firstly I noticed talk of the middle eastern countries having a devout racism toward americans, perhaps because of the way they act. Further more there is evidence of this behavior on /. replies. I'd have to admit that I have no love for America or the American people. I don't like Americans. And I also agree that america as a whole has a disgusting view of itself. It population seems to believe that it's the biggest baddest "moFo" around, if anyone needs help they turn to america yada yada. You're up yourselves. Just keeping in mind racism towards an arrogent, selfabsorbed country is one I can justify, anyone that loves themselves that much and views themselves as above others so much deserve to be knocked off their high horse.

That is not to say that I find these attacks in any ways justifiable. They were simply disgusting. Anyone who can commit such a vile act deserves to live a very long life in a large amount discomort.

America, your "holier than thou" attitude is disgusting...

A slightly miffed 21 y/o Brit lad

... for all those who ask for retaliation ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... ever thought, who created ppl like BinLadan? ... yupp, it was the CIA ... oops, so the US is also responsible for terrorism, but it's ok, if it's done to others, right? ... no, I do not sanction what has happened on the Sept. 11th in NY, but I'm also amazed, that so many people are surprised, that it did happen in the US ... I'd think that it's more amazing, that it didn't happen earlier, that finally also the USA learned the meaning of the word terrorism ...

... I don't like some of the reactions to this catastrophy, brought to us through the media, but I understand them, at least some of them ... George W. Bush's Speech had it all, the fight for freedom, the we'll bring 'em to justice and the democratic system of the US ... but who is he going to attack? ... and what will happen after the attack? ... now we know, that it's possible to use planes for such a barbarious act, yet we do know, also through the creations of Hollywood, that there's more to come, if people are only determined enough ... and then all the prayers won't help ...

what's in a name?

[Anonymous Coward]

that's an interesting proposal coming from someone named david. you wouldn't happen to be jewish would you?

Re:what's in a name?

[david43]

Why no, I'm an atheoagnostipagan of swedish/english parents. You?

Pearl Harbour ? Come on!

[Anonymous Coward]

Pearl Harbour ? Please don't make comparison like this. Or do you really mean that the US
government knew about the attack of the 11 september and is going to use it as a pretext to retaliation, like what happenened in WWII ?

This is a completely new scheme: it's the first time the most powerful nation in this world has been defeated so easily with `old methods' -- not nuclear war, missiles, stolen atomic bombs, computer piracy.

It's a tragedy. Many innocent (they just were US people or people working at US companies, they weren't soldiers or US officials) have been killed. Nothing can excuse this.

But a lot of things can *explain* this massive attack. We are told it could well be Ben Laden who organized this. Remember who helped Ben Laden in the first place during the Afghan war ?
Haven't the CIA and US officials *some* responsability in the Saddam Hussein, Ben Laden and other dictators in South-America cases ? They supported them, then dropped them, then outlawed them. But they didn't destroy their supporters, the supporters they helped to create.

You are paying for 40 years of errors in US diplomacy and military intelligence.

21st centery

[Anonymous Coward]

kiddies welcome to the jungle.....your going to die

Stupid fallic symbols.

[jotaeleemeese]

The towers (any tower higher than 10 floors perhpas) is stupid from many points of view:

-It uses huge amount of resources that in general are detrimental to the arease where the are.

-They are a huge fire hazard, many of these towers deal with fire cutting the oxygen, people be damned.

-As we have sadly learned, they are obvious targets for any fanatic.

-It makes easier to disable a whole country with little effort (who can argue about this now).

No, I think a memorial there and then to make a big push for working at home and descentralization....

No! The SubHG/TszHoG-EffU!

[Anonymous Coward]

The SubHG/TszHoG-EffU, a Germany-based subversive resistance movement largely consisting of students of Islamic studies, officially wishes to distance itself from the terrorist attacks on September 11 on the WTC and the Pentagon with which it has absolutely nothing to do.

We also want to state that we have nothing to do with the hiding of Osama bin Laden, of whose existence we are still not convinced.

Please read this... its important.

[El Camino SS]

Honestly, if they don't know how to say Tim McVeigh, then you know so little of the matter that they have no idea what we are talking about. Understandably, this person is the kind of troll that enjoys stirring the pot after tragedy because of some obvious contempt for his/her fellow man. I suggest that everyone understand one simple principle before continuing on these posts... if the person has to justify the killing of others in any fashion, then they are hate mongers, and have either been taught to hate by long culturally prorammed by ideas of justified death, or they have been abused, or harbor feelings of inadequacy that require them to lash out against the dead or grieving. DO NOT EXPECT THESE PEOPLE TO LEAVE NEWSGROUPS, they want an outlet to troll on. Please don't give them a second thought. Just please understand that when they justify "your government this" or "you deserved that" that they are the same unreasonable people that shouldn't be listened to.

Re: ground control

[Squeamish Ossifrage]

I work in air traffic control software, but I am speaking for myself and not on behalf of the company.

I don't have a conclusion about the wisdom of ground-based control of hijacked aircraft, but I do have a few observations:

1. Technologically, such a system would be a long, long way off. Current software monitors aircraft and displays information and warnings, but actual control decisions are made by controllers and transmitted by voice to pilots. Also, due to the great concern over reliability, major changes require a long time.
2. A remote-control potential is itself a vulnerability. If it were too easy to activate, terrorists could use that functionality against aircraft. If if were too hard to activate it wouldn't do any good.
3. Depending on altitude and location, aircraft are not always in continuous communication with ground control. This limits the usability of such a system.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[james(honest)]

We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point

50,000 dead by radiation poisoning isnt punishment? I expect you believe the political spin that it was done to save lives. It was done to demonstrate to the world that it worked. A total of 125,000 dead to make a point.

This is what the "terrorists" are fighting against. The complete arrogance of american foreign policy.

We are now seeing "terrorism" because america has demonstrated that it can destroy any nation that is prepared to take a stand against it. It uses its military to force compliance with laws, and then uses those laws to bleed countries dry of resources using the IMF, WTO and WIPO. Death from a US supplied Israeli rocket, is still death. Death from lack of AIDS medicine because its illegal to manufacture it cheaply is still death. Death from starvation because the country has to export its harvest to pay world bank debts is still death. Only the west makes this distinction between "war" deaths and terrorist deaths. So the war is going "underground". Nothing has changed. This isnt some new group that hate America. This is just a better organised resistance. Many nations of the world HATE america for good reasons. They are just getting smarter about dealing with you.

As ever, dont get me wrong. I find the attack of civilians absolutely appalling and disgusting. My heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones and those who had to suffer the immediate horror. However, as those of us in Europe (think IRA, ETA) know, violence only begets more violence. If the american government chooses to retaliate, they had better make sure they kill every non-white person on the planet, because there are still plenty of weapons left in the world.

And I say the american government, because at the end of the day, it is the civilians who are dying in the USA, Palestine, Israel, Ireland, Spain, France, Bosnia, Serbia, Indonesia, Chile, Vietnam, Namibia, need I go on?

The West would do better find out why it is hated, than to create a whole new generation of children who hate even more.

We treated Palestine like this?

[El Camino SS]

Uh, no. I don't support Israel either, but honestly, I don't see Americans blowing up the Palestinians tallest buildings on general principle alone. Personally, they're both idiots. I trust no one who has to beg for arms, and neither trust enyone who specializes in backyard car barbecues. We would have been all too willing to give Palestine and other parts of the world weapons (after all guns = $$$$) if they hadn't kept saying "infidels" under their breath at us. Every ethnic group claims superiority, most don't overtly scream it at the other and then apply bombs. Congrats, the Arabic people have set themselves back yet another 500 years in the eyes of the rest of the world. They did the worst thing possible for their future... proved that they are a violent peolple yet again. I hope they party like its 1299. Now no one will want to deal with them ever again. I'll start worrying about them when they can build their own planes, cars, and tanks.

Really, the reason why there are no tall buildings in that part of the world is because the people in that hemisphere haven't been peacuful long enough to pass the masonry to each other before bullets start flying. Just let them go then. If thats what they want, let them be. Don't visit. You're just begging for it. If they wan't to play with the rest of the kids, then they have to play fair.

I could trust either one as far as I could throw them. The Israelis are using this as a ruse so that we can turn our eyes to those atrocities that they are doing... and of course, give them more money for guns. Don't suport them either.

America, we are free. They are not. Give it up. They are all warlike out there. We should respond not in kind. But that doesn't mean that things are the way that they should be. We never asked for their wars. But we did, when we invited warlike peoples into our fold. Even the Romans weren't this stupid. We need to rebuild and get the hell out of this Israeli business. Leave them alone.

Weehauken, N.J.

[msdeller]

The name of the town is Weehawken, N.J.

Another attack?!

[fordede]

I didn't think many people here would be advocating another attack against the US. This seems to be what you're doing though. The US is the biggest bully on the international stage as it's attitudes towards Israel, Iraq etc. I don't think Americans should be advocating beating the bully senseless.

WWII History - Hiroshima & Nagasaki

[Meatloaf]

You state that we (U.S.) killed innocents without warning at the end of World War II. This is not true. Prior to the bombing of Hiroshima, we sent a message to the Japanese telling them to watch a particular island in the Pacific at a specific time. We then tested an atomic bomb on that island. This demonstration was a warning and a threat. The demonstration was followed by a threat to hit a Japanese city with the same type of bomb if they did not surrender. Several days later, we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. The Japanese government did not capitulate. Three days after that, we dropped the bomb on Nagasaki.

The Japanese had plenty of warning, and plenty of opportunity to end the war without those cities and lives being lost. They cared more about their cause than their citizenry.

I, as an American, am not exactly proud of our actions that ended World War II, but I did not live during that time (and I'm guessing you didn't either), so I refrain from holding judgement over those who had to make the tough decisions of the times. Yes, we killed many thousands, but how many more thousands would have died had the war continued to carry on as it had for the previous four years?

If you're going to try to learn from History, make sure that you start by LEARNING HISTORY.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Anonymous Coward]

You rebuilt Japan and Eupore with the marshall plan not to aid in the cold war but to build market for your business.

a french guy very sad for the american people

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Anonymous Coward]

The West would do better find out why it is hated, than to create a whole new generation of children who hate even more.

But WE would do best to indescriminantly lay waste to the entire problematic middle east region along with every living organism unfortunate enough to have taken up residnece there. Then, when the flames die down we can move in, re-establish our precious petrol facilities, and pop a cold one. Just to add insult to injury, I think we should make it a State and call it something stupid. Arabarkana has a nice ring to it.

What about the "innocent" civilians? That's their punishment for not policing their own. I saw those "innocent" women and children singing, dancing, and cheering at the death of thousands of my fellow Americans who were most certainly more innocent than they. We'll see who's cheering in the fucking streets. Well have comemmorative T-shirts, hats, and a whole line of collectables you can buy off TV. You don't like it? You're next. Be very afraid.

As much senseless violence and bullshit as has originated from the middle east (past, present, and undoubtedly future), extreme action is more than justifiable. Think of it as a global community service project that is long over due.

Your Pissed-off Neighbor

Pray for Peace

[Anonymous Coward]

I just did a really scary thing...

I just sent a message via the DefenseLink web site (that's the U.S.
Department of Defense's web site)...
http://www.defenselink.mil/faq/comment.html

It's kind of cool though...

"We have received your message.
Thank you, {Anonymous Coward}, for your input to DefenseLINK! "

In addition, I just emailed President George W. Bush (president@whitehouse.gov), first lady Laura Bush (first.lady@whitehouse.gov), vice president Dick Cheney (vice.president@whitehouse.gov) and Lynne Cheney (mrs.cheney@whitehouse.gov)...

(This is what I sent, and I provide it here so you can use it as a template for your own opinion... if you happen to agree...)

"In this time of great sorrow and tragedy with the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon, please please temper the military response to one
that is just and right and not simply a retaliation to a cowardly "act of war"... The U.S. has the chance right now to defend Freedom, but it also could stand up for PEACE instead of responding out of a mostly human emotion.

I pray for Peace at this time, even as I pray for those lost in this terrible act that was perpetrated against all of America... and for the families of those who lost loved ones."

I'm pretty sure they won't respond or anything, but at least it'll be filtered and cataloged and eventually appear as a statistic on a report somewhere about public opinion about DoD and Bush
administration policy. (reality sucks... but it's only logical that they can't read millions of email messages a day...)

But at least I feel like I did "something"...more than "just" praying for Peace.

A change of attitude

[seaner_at_play]

At the moment, I have no idea what kind of retaliation or response we should make. I guess I'd like to wait and see what information comes in, whether it is a country, or just a group of people (most likely). What I do know is my attitude toward situations in the middle east have changed. When the uprisings started, I'll admit I favored Israel (too many memories of PLO terrorists from when I was a kid, I guess) although in recent weeks with assasinations and other military attacks and mistreatment of Palestinians, I found myself sympathizing with Palestinians. However, that all disapeared after watching them cheer the deaths of Americans and any sympathy I felt for them is gone. In fact while watching the WTC fall down yesterday, I was thinking the best way to solve the Palestinian question would be to send Israel bigger bombs to use. I know this is just anger speaking and I'll feel different in a couple of days, I don't think that the Palestinians should count on the US to help with negotiations in the future because I doubt most of us give a crap what happens to them. If this offends anyone. Just venting what I'm feeling today...

Re:More atomic bomb BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Morita (founder of SONY) was a physicist who wrote about Japan's quest for an A-bomb during WWII. They were doing this because in war the least expensive means of killing or (preferably) incapacitating the enemy is the QED.

If we were back in August of 1945, would you volunteer to jump in and take care of business with a bayonet because it would offend your sensibilities less than using an A-bomb?

Buildings and Such

[virg_mattes]

> Make it two more sides. I want to be able to call it the Sexagon!

No, no, that would be the Septagon. The Sexagon is the new proposed name for the White House.

Virg

Toss Katz

[prophecyvi]

I agree with Jon Katz's worldview... but the man's self-important bullshit has always turned me off. Makes me sad, cos the world needs to be reminded of the Corporate Republic frequently.

Today, comments like "It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information" make me want to kick him. Please, CmdrTaco, Hemos, etc., GET RID OF THIS ASSHOLE!

Re:What repercussions --- should they be colossal?

[rpg25]

OK, I'm not sure I believe this myself, but here's an alternative.

We've heard this referred to as an act of war. What if that's true? What if we find out that Afghanistan -- or better yet, let's say Elbonia -- has harbored the person who has carried out a beyond-Pearl Harbor scale attack.

Why should we respond with restraint? [Notice this is only if we find out that it's Elbonia.] Why shouldn't we treat Elbonia the way we'd have treated the Soviet Union if they'd bombed NY? Why shouldn't we drop a nuclear weapon on Elbonia?

And, as far as concern for there just being more terrorists to follow, as some posters have proposed --- we just say "we'll do it again to the next terrorist attacker on the US."

This seems awful but assured destruction did work for the Cold War. Why not bring it back? What's the alternative? Arrest a few people who are willing to die anyway? Or even kill them, the way Israel does? They don't seem to care. Maybe what we need is a response that goes beyond, awfully beyond (in the literal awe-fully sense, too), the attack so that no one will ever want to do this again.

I'm not going to be just happy, I'll be overjoyed to hear a better alternative. But arresting a few guys or sending a cruise missile into a chemicals plant don't seem like good methods. Anyone got a better?

We Solved this, Sort Of...

[virg_mattes]

The idea we thought about was that the flight control system can be comandeered from the ground. If the pilot needs to override the ground control, he needs to enter a code on the panel. With the code, he/she gets control back. Without it, remote control can't be disabled. It's certainly far from perfect (if hijackers want to crash the plane, they just blow up the control panel), but it adds difficulty to any non-suicidal attempts to take over the plane (barring a planted pilot, which is really tough to do, or a pilot who caves under duress, which is more likely) and it's good incentive not to kill the pilot as a matter of course.

Again, it's not perfect, but it could certainly help. Add to it a durable cockpit door that's heavy to inhibit forcing it and airtight to prevent gas or depressurization attacks, and the threat of hijacking can be reduced quite a bit.

Virg

Wake Up Call

[virg_mattes]

George Washington was called a terrorist by British generals.

That said, your post is great. It deserves to be modded up.

Virg

Cooler heads need to prevail...

[Anonymous Coward]

First, there can't be a decisive and swift against anyone because we don't know who did it yet. Yes, the FBI have a few suspects in Florida and Boston, but we have to be patient to see how this plays out. Jane's Security points to three groups having the ability to pull this off: Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. I personally think it could also be an anti-WTO or anti-government group (given their predilictions to violence), though my gut reaction is bin Laden. Obviously we all have picked our favorite suspect, but the only information we know about the arrested suspects is that one of them is an Egyptian national. I'm hoping we have an NSA and Defense Department that can think quickly and correctly, because dear George isn't - he's calling this "war," he's not speaking to the increased incidents of racism and he's not speaking in ways that would be seen as strong in the Muslim world.

I work for a university and, yes, we are closed today. I don't think this is out of fear but out of precaution. We'll be back at work tomorrow, and this will be on our minds. But the world will continue.

This isn't World War III. This isn't some 17th century prediction come true. This is something the governemt hasn't been preparing itself for. They haven't paid attention to threats, they've (especially this administration) have ignored groups and governements in this world who aren't popular targets in the American public's eyes. And, if you look at a campaign, we elected a president who knows little and cares even less about world events.

We won the Cold War. We put ourselves into a position of power and envy by telling people they should be like us. Instead of thinking violence and retaliation from those who are jealous would never happen here we should have been preparing for it to occur. And, still yet, we should be working with other nations to help them.

We are the only super power, ladies and gentlemen. With great power comes great responsiblity. We can't isolate ourselves and we can't ignore things around us. Every time we do we are given a rude awakening (the Great Depression, Pearl Harbor, and now yesterday). We should either step up to our responsibilities on the world stage or step back, because if we don't, well, then I'm honestly afraid that yesterday will only be a drop in the bucket.

It isn't Hiroshima.

[jinx90277]

Please research your history before making comments such as "this is Hiroshima ][:"

1. By December 1945, the total death toll from Hiroshima was approximately 140,000, with many thousands of others in the years to follow due to radiation-induced cancers and birth defects. Although the loss of life yesterday was staggering, it will likely be two orders of magnitude less. We should all be thankful that the incident yesterday was not a nuclear device.
2. Comparing Hiroshima to yesterday's incident on the basis of "surprise attacks" is misleading. We had finally recovered enough islands in the Pacific Theater to reach Japanese airspace and were in the midst of an aerial bombing campaign against many major cities. The only reason that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been excluded prior to the use of atomic weapons was as a means of determining atomic-bomb-specific damage. If the U.S. military had planned to perform an invasion of Japan, we would almost certainly have included Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the air target list.
3. Finally, we were explicitly at war with Japan, and although the massive destruction at Hiroshima changed the course of human history, the alternative would have been an estimated one million American casualties -- plus at least that many Japanese casualties resisting the invasion. The most troubling fact from yesterday is that we may indeed view it as a declaration of war -- but from whom, and with what goal in mind?

The comparisons to Pearl Harbor are closer to reality, but what comes next for the U.S. government will be unprecedented.

A solution at last!

[nagora]

I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed.

Well, fuck, if only you had thought of doing that BEFORE the planes hit.

What a waste of time.

Air protection

[Anonymous Coward]

My father works at Boeing & I know that there is an automatic navigation and advoidance systems in the Boeing planes. However when in the design stages pilots wanted the ability to turn off the advoidance systems so they may have greater controll of the craft, or in case the advoidance system fails, thus causing a crash. However turning off the advoidance systems can and in this case if used properly kill tens of thousands.

I wonder if redundant systems of advoidance detection could be implemented along with some sort of detection system of electronic becons placed into major cities (skyscrapers, monuments & government buildings) that can cause airplane navigation systems to override pilots and steer away from such areas, alert the FAA and or turn over controls over to a flight tower while opening up lines of communication or video camera systems onto the cockpits immediately.

The thing that saddens me most is the notion that this is just a larger version of a car bomb that can happen again. I think there is a way we can prevent this type of attack from happening again through design, however it will involve alot of fore thought. Security at an airport is a joke and perhaps we should look to the plane itself to be more secure.

This isn't the type of control we want to give pilots.

FILs

[virg_mattes]

>I don't give a DAMN who is responsible. Now we have the ability
> to wipe to earth of all of these evil soulless bastards.

If you don't care who's responsible, who do you wipe out? If you can't identify all of these "evil bastards", you don't have the ability to wipe them out.

> Who many of the fucking liberals don't realize is that these
> terrorists are evil. You can say that violence begets violence and
> you can sing 'Kum-by-ya' until the second coming of Christ but the bottom
> line is that there are evil people in this world and these people DO NOT
> understand anything but force.

And you appear to be one of those people.

> What did the West do to force Hitler to invade Europe?

Bad example. What we did was enforce the Treaty of Versailles, which was written at the end of WWI. Even the French, who drafted the treaty, now universally agree that it was a hugely draconian treaty and because of that it was pivotal in allowing Hitler to rise to power in the '30s.

> What did the West do to force the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan?

Ooh, another bad example. We financed the formation of the Taliban (sound familiar?) and we even built the caves and bunkers that protected them from Russian carpet bombing (and more recently protected bin Laden's troops from our cruise missiles). This group committed numerous terrorist acts against Russian targets, prompting the invasion. Use the FOIA request to get information from the State Department about the Taliban during the Russian invasion. All this is documented in government files.

> What did the West do to force the PLO to continually attack Israel?

Ouch, strike three. The U.S. put the teeth into the creation of the nation of Israel, basically by putting Jews displaced in WWII on shore with American weapons and a lot of money. Since the Palestinians were already there, and claimed ownership of the land, a fight ensued wherein the Israeli forces pushed the Palestinians off the lands designated by the Allies, bulldozed their stuff and built their own settlements. This (for some reason that is only fathomable to sane people) pissed off the Palestinians, who promptly formed the PLO and have been fighting with Israel ever since. So, in answer to your question, we financed a mass displacement of their people.

> What did the West do to force Iraq to invade Kuwait?

Well, finally. Hey, one out of four ain't bad.

> The USA did not start this. The USA is not responsible in any
> way for this. By God, we do need to finish this.

Nice try, but it's not true. I'm even on your side that retributive strikes are necessary to eliminate known terrorists. I'm just not pig-headed enough to think that there's no blame on our side. Understanding why these terrorists do what they do is important because it's the first step in stopping terrorist acts. "Kill them all" tactics have proven ineffective all throughout history, from the British Expeditionary Force that tried it on the American colonists up to the U.S. forces that tried it in Vietnam. There's a better answer, and reining in our collective temper is the starting point. Vengeance is proper in this case, but how we execute that vengeance will determine how effective a deterrent it is.

Virg

Re:FILs

[SensitiveMale]

If you don't care who's responsible, who do you wipe out? If you can't identify all of these "evil bastards", you don't have the ability to wipe them out.

Wrong. I do not care who is specifically responsible. And don't say that I have changed my wording. This is the same as if a gang of 5 murder someone. Unless one of them turns on the others, the DA doesn't care who is the murderer. The DA tries ALL of them for murder. This is the same thing.

And you appear to be one of those people

Wrong again. I understand laws. I agree with the majority of laws. And I have a sense of right and wrong to keep from doing these things. But animals (such as the terrorists) do not. These people only understand force. And we need to deal with the law abiding people and countries of the world one way. And for those countries and those animals that WILL NOT deal with us in a moral and/or legal way we ignore. Until they force us to stop ignoring them.

About Hitler. You are a bit wrong. Sure maybe the treaty brought Hitler to power. But Hitler ONLY started invading and land grabbing when no one stood up to him. Hitler started demanding land, and no one said 'no', he became emboldened. This was the problem.

we even built the caves and bunkers that protected them from Russian carpet bombing (and more recently protected bin Laden's troops from our cruise missiles). This group committed numerous terrorist acts against Russian targets, prompting the invasion.

Ok, we built bunkers, to protect them from carpet bombing, from which they attacked the Soviet Union, then the S.U. invaded? From your words the carpet bombing came first. I find it hard to fault a people from attacking when they are being carpet bombed.

Sorry Charlie. Just because the Palestinians claimed the land does not make it theirs. This would be the same at the US govt giving land the the Jews in South Carolina and some group living in a county there saying that it was theirs. WRONG. The Palestinians have a homeland, Jordan. EVERYONE knows that. And as for the Israeli's kicking the Palestinians ass'es oh well. The Palestinians forced that issue a while back the the Israeli's stood their ground and even puched them back. In a war sometimes you win land and sometimes you lose land. The Palestinians have always lost. But they started the war. And Arafat showed his true colors last year. He was offered MORE than he asked for. And he turned it down. He doesn't want peace and he proved it.

how we execute that vengeance will determine how effective a deterrent it is

Partially true. But you need to realize who we are dealing with. A few decades ago, NO terrorist would attack the USA. After that rat bastard Clinton ignored the dead soldier dragged through Mogadishu, the attack on the US embassies a year or so ago, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole the terrorist became more and more bold. You can not reason with these people.

The only way to deal with terrorist is to out the fear of God into them. You do this to us and we will wipe out EVERYTHING. Fear and only fear keeps terrorists from attacking. This is all they understand.

As for understanding them, they do this because we are America. We have the best country in the world and our freedom is what they strike at. When I graduated from Parris Island one of the things the Marines pounded into me was that I am a target because I am a Marine. A terrorist would rather kill 1 Marine than 10 Army doggies.

I don't give a damn why terrorist attack. There IS NOTHING the US did to deserve the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon. There is NO REASON to attack civilians like that. The terrorists actions alone show that that he is one twisted fuck that does not deserve to live.

Air traffic is why the country is down.

[DunbarTheInept]

-It makes easier to disable a whole country with little effort (who can argue about this now).

I can.

The fact that a lot of business was conducted in that part of New York is NOT why the country is paralyzed right now. It's because of the shutdown of all air traffic. Air frieght isn't being delivered. People aren't returning from business meetings. Stuff came to a halt when the only means of fast transport in this country was pinched off.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

Regardless, I don't think Japan is complaining about their present state of affairs, especially considering that prior to the Marshall Plan, the usual fate of a defeated enemy was to suffer and pay whatever reparations the victor demanded. That was exactly what happened to Germany after WW1, which suffered worse than anyone during the great depression, and the result was that a certain mentally unstable gentleman took over the country and nearly the world.

Just because the plan worked to America's military and economic benefit doesn't mean that it hurt the recipients. It was better than they could have ever hoped for.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

What exactly is the "Kill Americans" attitude that apparently motivates the bihn Ladens of the world supposed to accomplish besides striking back at America? It's not going to get Israel out of Palestine, it's not going to get us to back off, and it's certainly not going to make these scattered terrorist networks and 3rd world countries more imposing towards the world's only superpower. The most they could possibly hope for is some sort of war they can't possibly win.

interesting numerology crap.

[hitchhacker]

In the US, we list dates in numeric form
as: month-day-year; so Sept. 9th is 9-11.
911 is the national number to dial in case
of an emergency from any telephone in the US.

peace,
metric

Re:Lots of people killed by the USA

[Kalani]

Sanctions I see problems with (but that's a *UN* thing) ... but slavery and settling are long over. There is no sense in killing a person for what his great great great great great great grandfather did.

I think that if you can say that the USA had it coming (and understand that when you say that, you're saying "those ~20,000 innocent civilian men and women deserved to die") you might want to check your pulse to make sure that your heart is still beating.

Re: Living with myself

[PhilHibbs]

How do you live with yourself?

Actually, you've hit a nerve there - it is quite difficult. We in the west are destroying the world and destroying lives in order to live in our little localised bubble of comfort. We spew out pollutants into the atmosphere and rivers. We throw explosives around in order to hone our strength. We invaded Iraq to ensure our access to cheap oil to fuel our empire. Children are dying because we (but not I) buy coffee and cocoa at below the sustainable price of production, which keeps the slave plantations going. We impose trade free rules on third world countries so that they have to buy our cheap schoolbooks covered with glossy adverts, rather than locally-produced products. I'm not sure I disagree with the Nike sweatshops, though, because I think they do pay a comparable wage to the local economy. If they paid more it might have a destabilising effect. So yes, I do have difficulty living with all this.

MOD THIS TROLL DOWN!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Those vermins"? Talk about generalization!

I'm truly embarrassed to hear comments like that in this forum. It's a black day for Slashdot when even rational thoughtful geeks are blind with hatred, and reason like Joe Sixpack in Texas (where, btw, a bunch of "vermin" muslims were recently beaten up pretty badly by people like you).

How could this POSSIBLY be off-topic?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone complains that Katz is tasteless when he tells his story, and may have friends who died. I react to this. Somehow, my post is off-topic, but I fail to see the logic.

Some moderators should be shot.

A Liberal Dose of Discussion

[virg_mattes]

> I do not care who is specifically responsible.

Then where do you start? Do you simply assume that you know who did it, and just keep cirling outward until you assume you've enveloped everyone? This makes no sense. If you don't know who's specifically responsible, you're shooting at random.

> This is the same as if a gang of 5 murder someone. Unless one of them turns on the others, the DA doesn't care who is the murderer. The DA tries ALL of them for murder. This is the same thing.

I guess you're not a lawyer or a judge. The DA not only cares who is the murderer in your gang, but although it can try all of them, the court must convict each of them separately. If there's enough evidence to convict three, but not enough to convict two, they don't call for majority and lock them all up.

> About Hitler. You are a bit wrong. Sure maybe the treaty brought
> Hitler to power. But Hitler ONLY started invading and land
> grabbing when no one stood up to him.

The first place Hitler annexed was the Sudetenland, which was part of pre-WWI Germany. Nobody "said" anything (in fact, France "said" quite a bit, but decided it wasn't ready to fight another war) because it was widely seen as an internal matter. When he annexed Austria, many of the allies promptly declared war on Germany. So, he didn't grab any land uncontested that wasn't part of Germany before WWI.

> Ok, we built bunkers, to protect them from carpet bombing, from which they attacked the Soviet Union, then the S.U. invaded?

You're misreading me, and not following history. We financed the creation of the Mujahideen (sp?), which started terroristic attacks against the U.S.S.R., they responded by invading, and we responded to that by financing the weapons and the construction of hard points. It's fairly easy to find fault in that, no?

> Sorry Charlie. Just because the Palestinians claimed the land does not make it theirs.

By your logic, anybody could take over any land they wanted. Not only did the Palestinians claim the land, they lived there. Basically, you're saying that the only claims on land are claims that can be defended by force, and that's exactly what happened. But, that doesn't make it any more right to them.

> This would be the same at the US govt giving land the the Jews in South Carolina and some group living in a county there saying that it was theirs.

There's the slight difference that the U.S. government didn't have any land rights in the Middle East. Few will deny the fact that the U.S. government has some claim to South Carolina, but no such right of territory existed for what is now Israel (which, by the way, was a part of Jordan until we annexed it). This example is the same as the U.S. government giving land in Egypt to the Jews, and local people complaining that it was theirs.

> And as for the Israeli's kicking the Palestinians ass'es oh well. The Palestinians forced that issue a while back the the Israeli's stood their ground and even puched them back. In a war sometimes you win land and sometimes you lose land. The Palestinians have always lost. But they started the war.

Two points: First, the Palestinians were there before the Israelis showed up, so the Israelis didn't "stand their ground", they pushed them off the land. Second, since (by military definition) the Israelis invaded Jordan (remember, this land was part of Jordan on the world map since nearly the 1600s), you can't exactly say that the Palestinians started the war.

> And Arafat showed his true colors last year. He was offered MORE than
> he asked for. And he turned it down. He doesn't want peace and he proved it.

I did some investigative legwork about this, and it turns out you're wrong. What was offered to the PLO was a piece of land that was larger than the parts of the West Bank that the PLO wanted, but it wasn't located on the West Bank. Since the whole reason for the fight is that the West Bank is holy land to the Palestinians, this wasn't by any means more than what he wanted, it was different, and it was unacceptable to them. He doesn't want a peace that involves Palestine displacement from their holy lands, but that's not the same as not wanting peace at any price (for an analogy, think about whether the American people would be willing to trade the grounds of the Alamo for a 600-acre tract of land somewhere near Mexico City). It seems you've fallen victim to spin doctoring. You might want to take a look at the actual treaty papers (they're on the 'Net) before you judge.

> A few decades ago, NO terrorist would attack the USA.

Um, terrorists have been attacking the USA for centuries. They usually reserved their attacks for U.S. military establishments in other parts of the world, but as those targets get harder to attack, they've changed their focus to the relatively easier mainland. This isn't an indication of boldness, it's an indication of A) the relative ease of attacking the U.S. mainland as opposed to U.S. military targets, and B) the general increase in terrorism in the entire world (war has gotten to be too expensive for most nations so terrorism is the only route).

> The only way to deal with terrorist is to out the fear of God into them.

What, the fear of your God? No more likely than you kneeling and facing east every day.

> Fear and only fear keeps terrorists from attacking. This is all they understand.

It's odd that the people who make a living out of studying terrorists don't agree with you, as you've obviously sunk at least a full ten seconds into your ideas about what drives terrorism. But, sadly, the experts have discovered that fear of reprisal is virtually ineffective against most terrorists. What seems to work best is infiltration, but, hey, just because full-scale military might hasn't ever worked in the past doesn't mean we can't try it once again.

> As for understanding them, they do this because we are America.
> We have the best country in the world and our freedom is what they strike at.

Although I agree that we have the best country in the world to live in, that's not what drives the attacks. They are striking at us because we back up their enemies. They couldn't care less about our freedom.

> There IS NOTHING the US did to deserve the attack on the WTC and
> the Pentagon. There is NO REASON to attack civilians like that.
> The terrorists actions alone show that that he is one twisted fuck
> that does not deserve to live.

On this point we agree. However, you should reread your statement, and pay very close attention to the second sentence. As was said by those wiser than me, we need to make sure we don't cast our net so far that we catch innocents.

Virg

The New Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

[ClarkEvans]

On Friday, Sept 14, 2001 Congresswoman Barbara Lee of Berkley California was the sole dissenting vote against a resolution which gives G.W. Bush power to "use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks... or harbored such organizations or persons".

This is effectively blank-check authority to wage war anywhere in the world against what ever nations G.W. Bush so chooses without further congressional approval. This operation has started and has been named by Pentagon as "Operation Infinite Justice". This is no joke. If G.W. Bush wants to wage war against Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or even the IRA it may do so without further approval.

Below is the resolution passed, followed by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Notice the similarity
and differences.

---

Resolution which past 410-1 in the House and 98-0 in Senate on September 14, 2001
H.J. Res. 64

Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and

Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and

Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and

Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and
extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and

Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States:

Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the ``Authorization for Use of Military Force''.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL. That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any further acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS.

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS. Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

---
Joint Resolution of Congress
H.J. RES 1145 August 7, 1964
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

That the Congress approves and supports the determination of the President, as Commander in Chief, to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression.

Section 2. The United States regards as vital to its national interest and to world peace the maintenance of international peace and security in southeast Asia. Consonant with the Constitution of the United States and the Charter of the United Nations and in accordance with its obligations under the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty, the United States is, therefore, prepared, as the President determines, to take all necessary steps, including the use of armed force, to assist any member or protocol state of the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty requesting assistance in defense of its freedom.

Section 3. This resolution shall expire when the President shall determine that the peace and security of the area is reasonably assured by international conditions created by action of the United Nations or otherwise, except that it may be terminated earlier by concurrent resolution of the Congress.