Absolutely. FORTRAN is still the most commonly-used language for activities like aircraft flight plan calculations, aircraft gross weight and W&B calculations, and other similar types of applications, and that is true even outside of the mainframe environment.
It also happens to be the main language in the application I'm working on, but it'll be ported to something else soon enough.:-)
I also tend to write (or at least tweak) a certain amount of assembler code, CALL (a nice interpreted macro language), and even C on the Unisys mainframe side of life, as well as the occasional tidbit in fairly obscure languages like SymStream/SSG, TTS, or even CTS or ED macros.
I tried to post an example of CALL (which is a language I really like), but the lameness filter prevented me. Maybe that's a hint.;-) But here are a couple of URLs:
A pretty decent solution already existed. It's just that folks went with the bandwagon instead of sticking with technology that worked.
That might not be true in smaller organizations, but it certainly was in those two. The mail servers they replaced PROFS with at NWA were a huge step backwards, IMO.
They're simply different from the point-and-click interface paradigm that Windows has foisted on the computing public.
I and my classmates were able to use Apple II machines effectively when we were 13-14 years old. Those had a command line. Why can't (most) adults handle the same thing now? It isn't that hard -- it's just that most people have developed a mind block, assuming that command-line somehow equals "having to be a programmer to use" when that is patently false!
I think most people say "complex" when they mean "different from what I'm used to"...
When I worked at Unisys, we had it with OFISLink (a mainframe-based corporate e-mail system), and they took it away and replaced it with internet mail.
When I worked at NWA, we had it with PROFS/OV (a mainframe-based corporate e-mail system), and they took it away and replaced it with internet mail.
Not all geeks are Unix/Linux geeks, especially in the hardcore mainframe shops where I've worked. All generalizations are false.:-) And not all mainframers are limited to COBOL.
Although a lot of us are straddling the fence between the mainframe and Unix worlds now, most of the pure Unix folks I actually know are either running Sparcs at home or PCs with a BSD/Linux/Solaris variant, not MacOS X. Some are, but it's a minority yet.
The web is very common, but it's also very slow compared to other types of trasactional systems, and the types of business-to-business applications that some of us work on just wouldn't do well via the web. Response times are too slow. We need >.5 second response!
Much of the in-house development I've seen in the airline industry is web on the surface but big-iron underneath. Most of the effort is spend on the backend, and that really isn't web related.
COBOL74 uses a period (.) to end an IF block, though, which can cause a lot of interesting issues when one is trying to nest IF statements. It doesn't always work the way you think it should.
There's nothing inherently wrong with Fortran. Even older variants like F66 can be used to write readable and efficient code. I spent over 10 years writing and maintaining such code, mainly written in UNIVAC FIELDATA FORTRAN V (a F66 superset), and some of it was a *lot* more readable (in general) than some of the C and C++ code I've had to deal with since then.
The main problem, historically, has been a lack of training on the part of those who were writing programs in Fortran -- many older programs were written by folks who were self-taught (since there were no computer science programs in the 60's), or who were engineers whose main focus had little to do with structured programming.
Spaghetti code is usually a programmer issue, not a language issue.
Read his note again. He put some qualifiers in places where he wasn't 100% certain, but a number of those instances are areas where he is unlikely to be 100% certain without specific case knowledge, and his comments were intentially made to fit the general case.
I think he presented some useful first-hand observations, I found his comments to be quite informative, and I found your criticisms to be entirely off-base.
Just calling it as I see it. Sorry.
If you had ever worked in a large support group where procedures tend to be context-sensitive and can (and do) often change depending on situational specifics, I suspect you'd understand his tone a bit better. Finite checklists are nice, but they don't always apply in real-world situations...
Several? I wish. I haven't counted, but I need to remember somewhere between 20 and 30 different passwords here at work for various mainframe systems, various UNIX servers, various web sites that each have their own password, my Windows and Novell logins, Lotus Notes, etc.
I keep them on my Palm IIIc in my (normally locked) briefcase and in my Abacus WristPDA.
Speak for yourself, please. I got into the field in 1981 because I was fascinated by computers and I wanted to be able to create things in software (my exposure to microcomputers and timesharing systems in junior high and high school taught me all about graphical games as well as multiuser text/TTY games like KARNATH and COMBAT).
The fact that it paid better than assembly line work made it a viable choice, but it wasn't the major reason why folks got into it at that point in time. I started at 26k/year, which was enough to let me live in a studio apartment and get loans for things like an older car and a new personal computer (which was quite expensive at the time -- my 286 cost around US$5000 or so).
I'd rather spend my life doing something fun, and that's what I'm doing.:-)
Programming is the design and implementation of a software system, but the nature of software systems can vary a tremendous amount. Some are basic and don't require a lot of precision, while others might be critical to the successful operation of a single device, an entire group of people, or even an entire company.
It's hard to paint the entire "programming" experience with a single brush.
Some bitmapped fonts are extremely readable. The IBM "VIO" fonts that shipped with OS/2 are a prime example -- I find them easier to read than any fonts I've found for Linux, for example.
That's why I'm in Atlanta now and not still up in the Twin Cities. I had a lot of experience in various technical areas, but the fact that I had concentrated in the airline industry killed me for a number of positions where they wanted industy-specific experience as a hard requirement.
That makes no sense from our perspective as employees (most application concepts tend to cross lines of business) and probably not from the hiring manager's perspective, either, but it isn't usually the hiring manager who is making the rules.
I know someone down here who received a job offer from a company (formal offer letter and everything), but who is now waiting in limbo because HR apparently decided that not enough people had been interviewd for the position. This is after the hiring folks made an offer!! What's with that...???
Feh. At least B5 had bathrooms. Besides, with characters like Londo and G'Kar, I think the series stands quite well on its own merits (at least for the first four seasons).
A lot depends on the company. Evenn though I write code on Unisys mainframes and Solaris servers, I still need access to various web sites in order to log my hours, to do online training, to request vacation, etc., and many of those web sites still require MSIE.
(The in-house sites on our corporate intranet are getting better, but some of the sites that are created by outside entities are not so flexible).
Because of this, I have a Windows box in my cube even though my job as such has nothing to do with Windows at all.
I wonder what the requirements for Windows 95 OSR2, OSR2.1, and OSR2.5 are? Those are the versions which added FAT32, USB support, and MSIE 4 respectively (if I remember correctly).
Slashdot Mirror
It also happens to be the main language in the application I'm working on, but it'll be ported to something else soon enough. :-)
I also tend to write (or at least tweak) a certain amount of assembler code, CALL (a nice interpreted macro language), and even C on the Unisys mainframe side of life, as well as the occasional tidbit in fairly obscure languages like SymStream/SSG, TTS, or even CTS or ED macros.
I tried to post an example of CALL (which is a language I really like), but the lameness filter prevented me. Maybe that's a hint. ;-) But here are a couple of URLs:
Source for head clone Source for text file lister
A pretty decent solution already existed. It's just that folks went with the bandwagon instead of sticking with technology that worked.
That might not be true in smaller organizations, but it certainly was in those two. The mail servers they replaced PROFS with at NWA were a huge step backwards, IMO.
They're simply different from the point-and-click interface paradigm that Windows has foisted on the computing public.
I and my classmates were able to use Apple II machines effectively when we were 13-14 years old. Those had a command line. Why can't (most) adults handle the same thing now? It isn't that hard -- it's just that most people have developed a mind block, assuming that command-line somehow equals "having to be a programmer to use" when that is patently false!
I think most people say "complex" when they mean "different from what I'm used to"...
When I worked at Unisys, we had it with OFISLink (a mainframe-based corporate e-mail system), and they took it away and replaced it with internet mail.
When I worked at NWA, we had it with PROFS/OV (a mainframe-based corporate e-mail system), and they took it away and replaced it with internet mail.
Whose fault is the current situation again?
Not all geeks are Unix/Linux geeks, especially in the hardcore mainframe shops where I've worked. All generalizations are false. :-) And not all mainframers are limited to COBOL.
Although a lot of us are straddling the fence between the mainframe and Unix worlds now, most of the pure Unix folks I actually know are either running Sparcs at home or PCs with a BSD/Linux/Solaris variant, not MacOS X. Some are, but it's a minority yet.
The web is very common, but it's also very slow compared to other types of trasactional systems, and the types of business-to-business applications that some of us work on just wouldn't do well via the web. Response times are too slow. We need >.5 second response!
Much of the in-house development I've seen in the airline industry is web on the surface but big-iron underneath. Most of the effort is spend on the backend, and that really isn't web related.
COBOL74 uses a period (.) to end an IF block, though, which can cause a lot of interesting issues when one is trying to nest IF statements. It doesn't always work the way you think it should.
There's nothing inherently wrong with Fortran. Even older variants like F66 can be used to write readable and efficient code. I spent over 10 years writing and maintaining such code, mainly written in UNIVAC FIELDATA FORTRAN V (a F66 superset), and some of it was a *lot* more readable (in general) than some of the C and C++ code I've had to deal with since then.
The main problem, historically, has been a lack of training on the part of those who were writing programs in Fortran -- many older programs were written by folks who were self-taught (since there were no computer science programs in the 60's), or who were engineers whose main focus had little to do with structured programming.
Spaghetti code is usually a programmer issue, not a language issue.
A Vectrex is almost as good. :-)
Ah, you're just suggesting that 'cuz it's got a cool name. :-)
Besides, I'd rather use TAMU.
I think he presented some useful first-hand observations, I found his comments to be quite informative, and I found your criticisms to be entirely off-base.
Just calling it as I see it. Sorry.
If you had ever worked in a large support group where procedures tend to be context-sensitive and can (and do) often change depending on situational specifics, I suspect you'd understand his tone a bit better. Finite checklists are nice, but they don't always apply in real-world situations...
Several? I wish. I haven't counted, but I need to remember somewhere between 20 and 30 different passwords here at work for various mainframe systems, various UNIX servers, various web sites that each have their own password, my Windows and Novell logins, Lotus Notes, etc.
I keep them on my Palm IIIc in my (normally locked) briefcase and in my Abacus WristPDA.
10 years ago you'd be buying a 200MHz PPro ... if you were lucky. :-)
It's far better for him to indicate uncertainty (in my opinion) than to spout on about stuff that he really isn't sure of. Cut him some slack.
I don't think Best Buy salespeople work on commission... Am I wrong?
Speak for yourself, please. I got into the field in 1981 because I was fascinated by computers and I wanted to be able to create things in software (my exposure to microcomputers and timesharing systems in junior high and high school taught me all about graphical games as well as multiuser text/TTY games like KARNATH and COMBAT).
The fact that it paid better than assembly line work made it a viable choice, but it wasn't the major reason why folks got into it at that point in time. I started at 26k/year, which was enough to let me live in a studio apartment and get loans for things like an older car and a new personal computer (which was quite expensive at the time -- my 286 cost around US$5000 or so).
I'd rather spend my life doing something fun, and that's what I'm doing. :-)
What does "high tech" mean...?
Programming is the design and implementation of a software system, but the nature of software systems can vary a tremendous amount. Some are basic and don't require a lot of precision, while others might be critical to the successful operation of a single device, an entire group of people, or even an entire company.
It's hard to paint the entire "programming" experience with a single brush.
Not possible on the mainframe I was using at the time. :-)
Some bitmapped fonts are extremely readable. The IBM "VIO" fonts that shipped with OS/2 are a prime example -- I find them easier to read than any fonts I've found for Linux, for example.
That's why I'm in Atlanta now and not still up in the Twin Cities. I had a lot of experience in various technical areas, but the fact that I had concentrated in the airline industry killed me for a number of positions where they wanted industy-specific experience as a hard requirement.
That makes no sense from our perspective as employees (most application concepts tend to cross lines of business) and probably not from the hiring manager's perspective, either, but it isn't usually the hiring manager who is making the rules.
I know someone down here who received a job offer from a company (formal offer letter and everything), but who is now waiting in limbo because HR apparently decided that not enough people had been interviewd for the position. This is after the hiring folks made an offer!! What's with that...???
Feh. At least B5 had bathrooms. Besides, with characters like Londo and G'Kar, I think the series stands quite well on its own merits (at least for the first four seasons).
I'll take Kira over 7of9 or T'Pol any day. Especially if her analog from the alternate universe comes along with the package. :-)
A lot depends on the company. Evenn though I write code on Unisys mainframes and Solaris servers, I still need access to various web sites in order to log my hours, to do online training, to request vacation, etc., and many of those web sites still require MSIE.
(The in-house sites on our corporate intranet are getting better, but some of the sites that are created by outside entities are not so flexible).
Because of this, I have a Windows box in my cube even though my job as such has nothing to do with Windows at all.
I wonder what the requirements for Windows 95 OSR2, OSR2.1, and OSR2.5 are? Those are the versions which added FAT32, USB support, and MSIE 4 respectively (if I remember correctly).