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Why Email is a Bad Collaboration Tool

An anonymous reader writes "Isaac Garcia follows up his popular "The Good in Email" article with "The Bad in Email or (Why Steve Ballmer is the CTO of Microsoft)": "In spite of email's universal success (as a collaboration tool), and in spite of its many good traits, email contains deep, inherent flaws that force users and markets to seek alternatives to collaborating via email."

245 comments

  1. Amen by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    Email Communications Do Not Correspond Priority
    If everyone used Outlook (70% of Central Desktop users use Outlook), then the ability to assign priority to each message would actually work. But we don't live in a Microsoft world (in spite of what many of you might think) and instead, we usually measure and weigh the importance of an email message by the number of people included in the carbon copy. This is highly subjective and fails to address the need to order and sort messages and task by importance.

    One alternative is to use ALL CAPS IN YOUR MESSAGE TO IMPLY PRIORITY.
    I can attest to that. Send me an e-mail via the Microsoft Outlook Exchange servers at work. But don't just send it regular style, send it in Outlook with the super duper maxi-ultra-important urgent need flag (the little red '!') enabled. Yeah, on top of that, make it required that the user send a response (thank you, Microsoft).

    Wait a few minutes ... or maybe an hour. I'll get back to my desk and see a notice that I'm 13 hours overdue to read your message (they've managed to somehow attach a meeting notice to it and insert it in my calendar for yesterday at noon without me knowing) that I missed the funniest super bowl commercial last night. And then put everything in caps.

    Yeah, I think I'd pretty much wait for you in the parking lot after work. And I wouldn't be there to give you a hug, ifyaknowwhatimean.

    Oh, by the way, my boss has it somehow set to default that it's urgent and he needs a response once I've read it. Same with his secretary. Urge to kill rising ... rising ...
    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Amen by lbrandy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think I'd pretty much wait for you in the parking lot after work.

      Would it be to prank the Stiffly Stifferson to death with a tire iron?

    2. Re:Amen by Frumious+Wombat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Which, in the end, is one of the problems; the Sender sets the importance, not the Reader.

      IMHO a simple improvement to email would be no more than twice a day delivery. People would know the corporate email shows up at 6:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. Therefore, if that time has passed, you won't get a reply before the next email dump. This removes the pressure on the recipient, who knows he has at least 8 hours before anything has to be done with that email.

      A side benefit is that there is only new email twice a day; when you arrive, and mid-afternoon. No more checking it every five minutes, no more boss yelling "did you get my email yet", no little dings/mailbox flags, etc, going off and distracting you from your job. Go a step farther, and let an intelligent agent apply your rules of priority to the message "has the word "superbowl video", so file it under "never"", rather than the sender's, and some of the issues are gone.

      For colllabortion between more than 2-3 people, use a Wiki or Notes. Email should be for person-person, ephemeral, communication.

      --
      the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
    3. Re:Amen by timster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've just disabled the "priority" column in Outlook, as all it tells me is that the email is from a certain person (who shall not be named) who seems to think that everything is urgent.

      The disease I'd like to complain about today is the "read receipt". I can only imagine how much time people waste looking up whether I've read their message or not. You can turn that off, too, but some people really go crazy if they don't get their read receipts.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    4. Re:Amen by CaptainZapp · · Score: 1
      Yeah, I think I'd pretty much wait for you in the parking lot after work. And I wouldn't be there to give you a hug, ifyaknowwhatimean.

      It's better for your carreer and for your outlook (pun intended) in court (due to a lack of witnesses), when you shift the waiting place to the dark corner of an underground parking at 2:30am.

      An alternative may be a crouded subway station at rush hour. That would be the more, uh, final approach to solving this little issue.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    5. Re:Amen by frdmfghtr · · Score: 1

      Some of this you can do already with the use of mail filters. I haven't used Outlook/Exchange in some time, but I can do everything that you have described in MS Entourage--only check email at 8am and 1pm for example (I just set this one to see how well it works out, I get distracted by email quite easily) and raise/lower message priority based on sender/content/etc.

      Perhaps this doesn't work with an Exchange account, but I can do this all with POP or IMAP accounts.

      --
      Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
    6. Re:Amen by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Funny
      Our local Spamfilter is configured in such a way that it bounces messages containing the header X-MSMail-Priority: high.

      Problem solved.

      Another alternative would be to greylist them with a delay of 2 days, hehe...

    7. Re:Amen by bicho · · Score: 1

      You know, another was is, like, say, write
      [Important]

      at the begining of the Subject:

      (Patent pending)

      How hard was that?

      --

      errera hunamum ets
    8. Re:Amen by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1
      no little dings/mailbox flags, etc, going off and distracting you from your job.

      Worst thing with the "dings": they distract your coworkers too!

      Folks, if you absolutely must have an überflashy desktop, please keep it just flashy (visual), but don't add bells, whistles and airhorns (audio) too...

      For colllabortion between more than 2-3 people, use a Wiki

      Good idea...

      ...or Notes.

      Bad idea...

      mail should be for person-person, ephemeral, communication.

      ... and also for notification that there is sth new in the collobaration wiki. IMHO, change notification e-mails are not a bad idea (if they can be appropriately customized, so that you only get notified of things that are of interest to you): they save on checking on zillions of wikis and forums to see whether anybody replied to your message.

    9. Re:Amen by Fred_A · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The mail delivery time idea is quite clever.

      In case anyone is interested, here is the setup we had in a little company (now long sold) I setup with friends a while back (I wasn't the one who came up with the idea) to manage the "info" mail account (standard email addresses were still used back then) :

      • any incoming mail to info was dumped to our local news server in a private group we all read;
      • replying to the newspost replied to the mail.


      This would let you know who did what and it kept an archive in a platform independent format as well. It was used for other "global" addresses as well.

      People could browse news in the same client (Netscape at the time) they used for email, which was convenient. We ran a mix of Linux, BSD, Windows and Irix.
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    10. Re:Amen by Neil+Watson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the benefits of email is that new mail waits in a mail box for me to look at when I am ready. I take advantage of this by disabling any new mail messages. No flashing, no popups and no noise. That way I can focus on my current task; checking my mail only when I am ready.

    11. Re:Amen by curecollector · · Score: 4, Funny

      For colllabortion between more than 2-3 people

      Great typo - seriously. You've inadvertantly invented a term that has accurately described more workplace collaborative efforts than I care to remember. Thanks!

    12. Re:Amen by mmalove · · Score: 2, Interesting

      An interesting idea, but to each their own. Email's great when you don't need an immediate response, or when you know someone is in their office. Not so good when you are trying to track someone down for a question, but that's what cell phones are for, right?

      Me personally I try to at least respond to an email asap, but I may not fill the person's request immediately. But everyone has their own service level standards, based on who your customer is and how many responsibilities you have. I think a good twist on your idea would be some kind of autoresponse, not in the form of email necessarily, that would allow you to set the expectations on a response to the email back to the sender, sort of like you can share your calendar in outlook. Something like the profile, but more simple, that indicates when you have access to email, or intend to respond to emails. I'm not exactly sure what form it would take, but that's why they pay the engineers the big bucks.

      --
      You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
    13. Re:Amen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when i was using Outlook/Exchange at my previous job, i set up a message filter that sent all "high priority" e-mails to a special folder labeled, Do Later. and of course, i turned off the delivery receipt request feature.

    14. Re:Amen by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1
      Oh, by the way, my boss has it somehow set to default that it's urgent and he needs a response once I've read it. Same with his secretary. Urge to kill rising ... rising ...

      Actually, the sender-assigned priority thing works pretty well. I just assume that anyone who sets their own message's priority for me is an idiot or ass-clown and I read those last, if at all.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    15. Re:Amen by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I used to have an outlook rule that anything set to "Urgent" was automatically reset to "low priority". I know, it' childish and stupid, but then again, so was my job.

      Of course, no one has ever once sent me something marked "low priority", so whenever I received a low priority message, i knew it meant high priority.

      I just liked the fact that when my boss looked over my shoulder, all his messages were marked "low priority".

    16. Re:Amen by Brewskibrew · · Score: 3, Funny

      I used to have a manager who sent all his e-mails with read receipts, even low priority messages like status reports and "there's cake at the secretary's desk" messages. Rather than mark them read, I used to move them all (in their unread state) to a subfolder. Once a month or so, I would do a "Select All" and then "Mark Read", flooding his Inbox with dozens and dozens of read receipts. It took a couple of months of this passive agression, but he stopped using the read receipts by default.

      --
      For sale: Signature. One owner. Low miles. Always garaged. New punctuation, just installed!
    17. Re:Amen by dooglio · · Score: 1
      I like the way phpBB http://www.phpbb.com/ works for private messages. You have an outbox and a sendbox. The message stays in the outbox until the recipient reads the message, so you can know if at least it's been read. And, you can turn on email notification for when you get a private message.

      I tried getting my coworkers where I used to work to use a wiki, but it just didn't catch on. I wonder if a forum management tool like phpBB would have worked better.

    18. Re:Amen by dooglio · · Score: 1
      Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. phpBB also has RSS (as I'm sure most forum-management/BBs do too these days). So I use an RSS tool like Thunderbird's news feed reader to keep up to date on new posts (to the public areas, anyway). I would think an RSS feed would be great for collaboration.

      Heck, I even use the news feed reader for slashdot. :-)

    19. Re:Amen by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful
      For colllabortion between more than 2-3 people, use a Wiki or Notes.

      Once upon a time, there were these things called "newsgroups"...

      Wikis (or if your group is HTML literate, just setting up a local website on space everyone can access) are fine for producing documents, but are lousy at capturing threaded discussions over time. Setting up a local NNTP server works well for this.

      Notes, of course, is a bloated proprietary monster that should have been killed long ago.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    20. Re:Amen by honkycat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I always set my mail reader to ignore all return receipt requests. If I want someone to know I read their message, then I'll reply to the email myself. I find them to be intrusive and impolite.

    21. Re:Amen by timster · · Score: 2, Funny

      I once got an email marked "low priority" from a soft-spoken accountant. If that man ever sends me anything marked "high priority", I will flee the building.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    22. Re:Amen by dhk42 · · Score: 1

      IMHO a simple improvement to email would be no more than twice a day delivery.

      OMG, are you insane? I get 200 "urgent" emails a day (not with a flag, but issues people actually want a response to soon). If we had twice a day delivery I would have to answer 200 PHONE CALLS a day instead.

      I would have to find a cyanide capsule somewhere.

      dhk

    23. Re:Amen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I used to work as a developer in one particular nightmare shop (small family-owned business). One of the problems was that my boss, the owner, would email me every ten to fifteen minutes with a new job that was always "urgent" to him, but in reality, had absolutely no urgency whatsoever, he was just impatient. So every ten to fifteen minutes, I had to stop what I was doing and respond to him.

      My solution to this was to set my mail client to check for new mail once every hour. His solution to my solution was to email me, then phone me up to tell me what was in the email.

      <goldblum>Idiocy always finds a way.</goldblum>

      <gilmore>PHB's view twice-a-day-delivery as censorship and route around it.</gilmore>

    24. Re:Amen by adam.skinner · · Score: 1

      Rather than a newsgroup or a wiki, a forum would also work.

      Drupal is a great way to work collaboratively. Threaded comments, different content types; pretty much everything you'd need. Internal scheduling isn't very robust.

      Something like phpGroupware would work as well (I suppose that's what it's for, eh?)

    25. Re:Amen by QuestorTapes · · Score: 1

      > The disease I'd like to complain about today is the "read receipt". I
      > can only imagine how much time people waste looking up whether I've read
      > their message or not. You can turn that off, too, but some people really
      > go crazy if they don't get their read receipts.

      Read receipts aren't all bad; I've used them on occasion when working with coders in different time zones or on different shifts. When I got the receipt, it let me know they had checked in and I should probably get ready for a phone call or IM session.

      As far as turning off replying to read receipt requests, I usually set things up to ask; I've often let the reply go out for some people, jsut because it makes them feel better. Never because it was useful.

      Priority is completely useless, of course.

    26. Re:Amen by pacalis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Twice a day delivery is an awful idea. First, email is asyncronous communication - thus it works better than a phone when I don't want to be interrupted. I can read it and answer it when I want, not when the company schedules me to. Second, why impose structure on a system that has its advantages in allowing for less structure? If there actually is anything important everyone has to wait to get it started becuase they won't know about it until 8 hours later (ie. what if there is an internal post that has an error?) Companies want responsive employees, not people that take 7 hour coffee breaks before they panic on what needs to get done. Like most other posts - the problem is not inherant to email, but found either the idiots that can't figure out to use it (your boss!), or the people that over use it (spammers). My email works great. I love it, don't know what I would do without it.

    27. Re:Amen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh fuck, please excuse the greengrocer apostrophe, I hate that. I was just reading a Digg headline with one in and it must have infected my brain.

    28. Re:Amen by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

      The disease I'd like to complain about today is the "read receipt". I can only imagine how much time people waste looking up whether I've read their message or not. You can turn that off, too, but some people really go crazy if they don't get their read receipts.

      On the other hand, there was a case where I have found read receipts to be supremely useful.

      At a job in my distant past, there was one particular person with whom I needed to talk fairly frequently, and in all cases, my need to talk to this person was time-sensitive. He was very rarely at his desk, not because he was not in the office, but because he was off doing other useful things, which warranted non-disturbance.

      The solution was to send him an email with a read receipt flag on it. When I saw the read receipt show up in my inbox, I would be able to go out and find him at his desk reading his email.

      BTW, before anyone goes of on me for doing things this way, this was done in the interest of providing good customer service. I was working at a technical support call centre at the time, and I employed this tool, with appropriate moderation, when I had a customer who was waiting for a call back from me.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    29. Re:Amen by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Which, in the end, is one of the problems; the Sender sets the importance, not the Reader. IMHO a simple improvement to email would be no more than twice a day delivery. People would know the corporate email shows up at 6:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. Therefore, if that time has passed, you won't get a reply before the next email dump. This removes the pressure on the recipient, who knows he has at least 8 hours before anything has to be done with that email."

      Nah..wouldn't work for me...I keep about 3 email clients up at all time (2 web, one regular), and I keep an constant eye on them....I use email like many use IM's...hell, I often hold almost realtime conversations via email. I like it best because, unlike the phone, no one around me can hear what I'm on about....and email isn't blocked like IM is in so many places. And you can use good encryption with it for direct sending and indirect sending through nym servers...to converse anonymously.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    30. Re:Amen by CPNABEND · · Score: 1

      And while we are at it, can we disable the "Reply TO All" button?

      --
      My wife doesn't listen to me either...
    31. Re:Amen by Em7add11 · · Score: 2, Funny

      We have a guy here who not only has his read-receipts turned on, but he has his sending address set as the group email address for our entire department.

      So now everybody here gets notified when his emails are being read.

    32. Re:Amen by Geheimagent · · Score: 1
      Which, in the end, is one of the problems; the Sender sets the importance, not the Reader.
      Use a mailreader with score-/killfile or procmail or alike. Spamfilters can be trained for that, too.
    33. Re:Amen by jgrahn · · Score: 1
      once upon a time, there were these things called "newsgroups"...

      No, no, no. Didn't you read the article? Newsgroups and List Serves (sic!) are a "hack fixes" which "rely on the Email Inbox to send and receive data".

      More absurdities follow further down in the article, but you can stop reading there. It's near the top.

    34. Re:Amen by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      So you use e-mail to avoid doing your job then. Or is your job to talk to lots of people on e-mail all day long? e.g. tech support.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    35. Re:Amen by durdur · · Score: 1

      Personally, I've never gotten an email requesting
      a return receipt where, from my point of view anyway,
      it was necessary. At least people set the priority flag
      semi-appropriately - but some people seem to use return
      receipt even on the most routine communication.

    36. Re:Amen by mrak_attack · · Score: 0

      Could you please mention the software that you used for this kind of NNTP/email gateway? is it Mailman?

    37. Re:Amen by Fred_A · · Score: 1
      Could you please mention the software that you used for this kind of NNTP/email gateway? is it Mailman?

      Not really but it probbaly was a home made Perl thing. CPAN probably held an adequate module. We were quite big on Perl at the time...
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    38. Re:Amen by ElderKorean · · Score: 1

      The disease I'd like to complain about today is the "read receipt". I can only imagine how much time people waste looking up whether I've read their message or not. You can turn that off, too, but some people really go crazy if they don't get their read receipts.

      This once caused some 'fun' at my workplace.

      One of the 'Executive Administrators' asked my why I was deleting her e-mails without reading them.

      Turned out that having the preview enabled didn't set the 'message has been read' flag and that outlook would respond to her that I'd deleted the message without reading it even though I'd got the complete message through preview.

      Not sure if it is still doing this, perhaps not as my new manager hasn't asked me about that yet.

    39. Re:Amen by HotmanParisHiltonKam · · Score: 1

      Why not go one step even further and print the message on paper and send it that way; or even one step further and carve it onto stone tablets and get some guy in a robe to deliver it and proclaim it from the nearest hill?

      I expect my email to arrive shortly after the sender wrote it, because if someone is emailing me it's for a good reason and I want to know what they have to say. This is one of the infinite benefits of having 0 friends - I get left alone to actually do some work and email is my primary communication tool for getting that work done.

    40. Re:Amen by bbtom · · Score: 1

      The more people involved in a project, the more letters in collaboration. So Wikipedia is a colllllllllllllllllllllll*10^20aboration.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
  2. Not all bad, just inappropriate sometimes by NaijaGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    An intelligent user of email considers whether sending an email is appropriate for the communication at hand. That's the way it is with so many tools--they're often misused, but that doesn't mean they don't still have their proper place.

    1. Re:Not all bad, just inappropriate sometimes by edumacator · · Score: 1

      Right on the money. Of course one of the issues we face is providing more appropriate tools that are as easy to use as Email.

      Can we find a tool that allows interaction as easily as email? Wikis come a long way, but you are still dealing with going to a wiki, signing in (if it's protected), saying something, then letting others know what you have changed.

      How can we skip that middle part? I'm sure there are fixes out there, but there is a tipping point for adoption, and we are no where near it.

    2. Re:Not all bad, just inappropriate sometimes by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      Can we find a tool that allows interaction as easily as email?

      May I suggest private newsgroups?

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    3. Re:Not all bad, just inappropriate sometimes by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      see recent Changes,it lacks the forum features to sticky threads,or move them to top of forum when you reply.
      There is forum notifications too (a subscriber get a private message/email when his thread gets replied to).
      Wikis are (essentialy) an advanced type of self-moderating forum with a different feature set(history,free moderation,editability,etc) and minimum restrictions.

  3. A few problems: by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 4, Informative


    The summary states the title of the article as: "The Bad in Email or (Why Steve Ballmer is the CTO of Microsoft)"

    Two problems with that:
    1. The title is actually "The Bad In Email (or Why We Need Collaboration Software)"
    2. Steve Ballmer is not Microsoft's CTO...Ray Ozzie is (Steve Ballmer is the CEO).

    Problem #2 is especially difficult to understand, as the article itself correctly identifies Ray Ozzie as Microsoft's CTO.
    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

  4. Wait a second... by cdogbert · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Steve Ballmer != CTO

    1. Re:Wait a second... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      CTO = chair throwing officer?

    2. Re:Wait a second... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chair Throwing Officer?

      What, is Bobby Knight going to get the job next?

  5. Better email by pubjames · · Score: 0, Troll

    Dear OSS community,

    please come up with a better email! As a business user I need something that has guaranteed, secure delivery. I don't care how it is done, but that's what I need. If you don't do it, eventually somebody else will - probably Microsoft - and then you'll complain about their implementation and be playing catchup.

    Thanks!

    P.S. Yes, I know it's difficult.

    1. Re:Better email by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Print out the email, and deliver it in person. That's the only way you would be certain that it arrived and that no one changed the message.

      Good day to you, troll.

    2. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      Good day to you, troll.

      I am not a troll.

      There is a real opportunity here that I believe the OSS community is missing, which is why I was deliberately provocative.

      Image if sending emails between OSS clients like Thunderbird was actually better than using, for instance, Outlook. I could say to my contacts, hey use Thunderbird for your email and you'll know that I've received it. They might then say to their contacts the same thing, and the uptake spreads. Firefox spread because it is better than IE. Thunderbird would spread like wildfire if it could do secure, guaranteed (to arrive, or notification if not) email.

    3. Re:Better email by ratboy666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Crap. Crap. Crap.

      Good, now that that's out of my system, I'll explain.

      Email WITHIN my domain is guaranteed. Honest. If someone (say joe@jupiter.lan) sends mail (to, say, jane@earth.lan), its going through.

      If joe@jupiter.lan sends mail to peter@scrape_me.com (whatever), it is rewritten to joe@scrape_this.com, and forwarded to forward_this_shite.net.

      After which IT ISN'T MY RESPONSIBILITY. If it can't be forwarded on, it WILL be returned to joe@jupiter.lan. Once accepted, though, I don't care. Not my network. And this makes the world go around.

      If there are problems within your LAN or your system, its your responsibility. The original Unix just dropped the mail into the file system. Which is as reliable as the file system. No delivery issues. Linking networks together; as reliable as the linking/forwarding services used.

      I can't and won't be responsible for other peoples networking and administration skills.

      Ratboy

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    4. Re:Better email by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      Hey! I know!

      SMTP offers guaranteed delivery. It's a connection oriented protocol. If it fails, it lets you know, and it only fails if the other server isn't there. So the only problem beyond that is that local delivery is misconfigured...not really a problem in software design, is it?
      I guess that solves the first problem.

      Now to make it secure...Kerberos! That's about as secure as you can get. But how to do kerberos+smtp? What about POP3 or IMAP? Can we kerberize those, too? Maybe we can let MIT take care of it...

      Oh, wait, they have! MIT makes it and uses it on their own servers and clients! Did we win? Yay!

      Turns out that secure+guaranteed aren't actually hard requirements to meet - that they have already been met before. What people really want is the stuff that exchange provides - which is neither of those things.

      However, if that's what YOU want, then may I suggest that you look for it a little?

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    5. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1


      When I phone someone, and there is a problem with their telephone or telephone system, I get an engaged tone or equivanent.

      All I'm asking is if I send someone an email, and they don't receive it for whatever reason, I know about it. An engaged tone for email, if you like. And no, the email system does not do this.

    6. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      I guess that solves the first problem.

      No it doesn't. Emails do not get through and sometimes no notification is given. I don't care why this happens, but it does. and that, quite frankly, is rubbish.

      Why do you guys always rush to the defense of email. It's a crappy system.

    7. Re:Better email by barzok · · Score: 1

      And watch your SPAM levels increase exponentially as it's instantly confirmed that your address is valid. This is the kind of address verification that email harvesters/list sellers would kill for.

    8. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      And watch your SPAM levels increase exponentially as it's instantly confirmed that your address is valid. This is the kind of address verification that email harvesters/list sellers would kill for.

      Unless of course I could approve notifications, i.e. if a message comes from an address that isn't already in my address book I can choose to accept messages from that address or not.

    9. Re:Better email by whoever57 · · Score: 1
      Now to make it secure...Kerberos! That's about as secure as you can get. But how to do kerberos+smtp? What about POP3 or IMAP? Can we kerberize those, too? Maybe we can let MIT take care of it...

      Oh, wait, they have! MIT makes it and uses it on their own servers and clients! Did we win? Yay!

      There is more:

      But the moment your message leaves your email host....its a free-for-all for any one to sniff and hack.
      Apparently, the author never heard of SMTPTLS, which, incidentally, GMAIL has implemented.

      Now, not may mail servers support TLS, but to say that there is no encryption is wrong. I can send and receive emails to gmail and it is encrypted end-to-end from my home network to gmail.

      I would argue that the problem with GMAIL is that only the sign-on is encrypted. I don't think anything that is displayed on the screen is encrypted.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    10. Re:Better email by dodobh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Use registered post. Seriously. IP itself is unreliable. The Internet is reliable in the sense that the global network does not go down even if some sites (or backbones) do.

      Modern email is pretty much reliable. What is not reliable is the "business" need driven content filters which cause mail to disappear.
      SMTP is best effort, and that effort is very, very good. End users can make the best efforts of clued administrators fail.

      Reject my email if you think it is spam. Don't filter it out, because then I have no feedback (and no, read receipts aren't acceptable).

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    11. Re:Better email by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      You *only* get that accurately if both parties are in the same switching network. The same administrator has end to end control of the network.

      If it crosses networks, no such guarantees exist. But, since a positive connection has an "immediate" result, it doesn't matter. Your "busy" or "no connect" signal may, however, be due to any number of reasons (not just that the other party cannot take your call now).

      Email, though, is a step away from immediate results. It can be delivered though severly constrained channels, where immediate communication is impossible.

      In other words, use the phone (or IM) for immediate communications, with direct connection feedback. Use email for deferred communication. If you need deferral with a "delivery guarantee", use a common server (tools like wiki, or lotus notes).

      Ratboy.

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    12. Re:Better email by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1

      When I worked at Unisys, we had it with OFISLink (a mainframe-based corporate e-mail system), and they took it away and replaced it with internet mail.

      When I worked at NWA, we had it with PROFS/OV (a mainframe-based corporate e-mail system), and they took it away and replaced it with internet mail.

      Whose fault is the current situation again?

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    13. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      Excuses.

      All I want is a little red dot next to emails in my sent folder that weren't received by the recipient. I don't think that's impossible. It may be difficult. It may not be to do using the current way email works.

      But we'll have it one day and it would be better if it was the OSS community that provided an open way to do this.

    14. Re:Better email by slashflood · · Score: 1

      You obviously don't know anything about email, do you? Thunderbird and Outlook are just mail clients. The mail routing, mail storage and so on is done by mail servers. You can have the best mail client in the world, but if some administrator misconfigured his mail server, you can't do anything about that.

      I was working as an IT Manager for years and you won't believe me, how often users came to me and asked me what happened to the email they sent around the world or they were expecting a reply to a mail and haven't received it. 99 per cent of the time I had to explain that the world doesn't consist of only our own mail servers.

      Most of the time the "problem" was the user. Misspelled mail addresses and ignoring the error notification and so on.

    15. Re:Better email by nursegirl · · Score: 1

      That already exists - read receipts. I always refuse them because I find them annoying.

    16. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      Whose fault is the current situation again?

      I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I think the OSS community rocks. It's just this particular problem is waiting for a solution, and nobody seems to be trying to find it.

    17. Re:Better email by Old+Man+Kensey · · Score: 2, Insightful
      pubjames wrote:

      Thunderbird would spread like wildfire if it could do secure, guaranteed (to arrive, or notification if not) email.

      It can. For many people, it does. Also, you're confusing a client issue (secure content) and an only partially client issue (secure delivery) with pure server issues (guaranteed delivery) which the client should not and in fact cannot address. And that issue is solved anyway, in SMTP, for what, 30-some years now?

      --
      -- Old Man Kensey
    18. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      That already exists - read receipts.

      No, read receipts are not the same. That is for an individual email. I'm talking about the person it comes from, not the email.

      And yes, they are extremely annoying.

    19. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      Use registered post.

      what kind of an answer is that?

      I have posted this plea for better email numerous times on Slashdot and all I ever get is a bunch of responses full of excuses for the current system or reasons why it is not possible or is too difficult.

      All I want is a little red dot next to a sent message if it has not been received (or if the system can't tell if it's been received). Yes, I know that there are all kinds of reasons why with the current way email works doing this is problematic. But that's the whole problem. Come on guys, why all the negativity about this subject?

    20. Re:Better email by CrazedWalrus · · Score: 1

      Sounds like delivery / read receipts to me, and they've been around for a long time. Some people turn them off. Some clients will return the receipts if the requestor is in the address book.

      See - once you add the "if I can approve" it bit, you necessarily forego the "guaranteed" aspect. Hence the problem with receipts. Your request would be to simply re-invent this wheel.

    21. Re:Better email by ericspinder · · Score: 1
      please come up with a better email!
      Email is like the weather, everyone complains about it, but no one does anything about it.
      --
      The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    22. Re:Better email by kfg · · Score: 1

      As a business user I need something that has guaranteed, secure delivery. I don't care how it is done, but that's what I need.

      Because you don't know how it's done you will not understand the explanation of why that is not possible in this universe.

      Perhaps what we need are business users who understand that the universe contains no guarantees and how to deal with that simple fact. Might I suggest the use of return reciepts? That's how they do it with snailmail too. It at least gives you some knowledge of the delivery status.

      KFG

    23. Re:Better email by kwerle · · Score: 1

      Why do you guys always rush to the defense of email. It's a crappy system.

      Email is a great system with a few flaws. Gauranteed delivery is not one of them.

      Virtually all email programs will let you request a recieved receipt, and that's about as good as you're going to get. You could probably also find an addon that will notify you by sending an image or other HTML element that tracks back to a server that will send you a reciept. I'm sure someone will sell you that solution, too (or give it to you free if you look for it).

      But the recipient has no obligation to implement either of those, and in some cases can not.

      The bottom line is that if you want guaranteed delivery, email probably will never be your solution.

      I do wonder why you sound so bitter about it, though. Is there some specific problem you've been having? My email always does get delivered, and in the odd cases it does not, I get a bounce.

    24. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      Email is like the weather, everyone complains about it, but no one does anything about it.

      Too right! Just read all the other responses in this thread. It makes me depressed.

      One day someone will come out with a better messaging solution and it will take off like wildfire. But if Slashdotter are representative of the OSS community then it looks like it is unlikely to come from the OSS community.

    25. Re:Better email by richlv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      hmm. what exactly are excuses ?
      as i saw, ratboy stated that this can not be guaranteed unless all participants comply with common rules or all links are controlled by a single entity.

      if all links in an email-processing chain (your mail client -> your computer -> your server -> some other mailserver -> other computer -> other mail client) are working as they should, the message simply will be delivered.

      now, wether it will be read... no, read notifications is not a good idea.

      generally mail system is supposed to notificate you whenever there is a problem delivering the message - wether it would be unaccessible recipient server, incorrect recipient address, unaccepted content or whatever.

      it will usually do this by sending you an email message stating that the message was not delivered and telling you why. in some cases you might get notified immediately, if your server can find a problem while your mail client is talking to it.

      once the message has left your mailserver, it's completely the responsibility of other server[s] to inform you as a sender about any problems that result in inability to deliver the message to the final recipient.

      phone conversation isn't exactly a good analogy as it's a two-way interactive communication. unless you propose one mail client talking to another, there always will be intermediate servers that will pass the mail, check it for viruses etc.

      if you ever get unreliable mail delivery (meaning mail is getting simply lost), that SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. really. contact your administrator, together with him try to find the cause for it. once it is found (you might have to contact destination/sending party), push for it to be resolved.

      now, the only case i can think of missing mail (that is not because of some massive network or infrastructure outages that you should be noticing anyway) is spam filters. yes, spam filters that discard messages can cause this, but anyway are controlled by one of the sending/receiving party, thus finding which has snapped the mail and preventing that from happening should be done as soon as possible. and the message itself still must be possible to retrieve from the spamfilter if, for example, it's your organisation's infrastructure that has classified the message incorrectly.

      other approach is flagging all the mail and letting it to fall in a separate mailfolder at user's client. that is easy to do with current tools and probably is the best thing to do at your organisation if losing email can be critical and users are sophisticated enough to find the occasional filtered away message (and they have the possibility to set individual thresholds so that one would have more manual spam-hunting to do, other would cope with a mail getting classified incorrectly now and then).

      --
      Rich
    26. Re:Better email by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Funny
      I don't think anything that is displayed on the screen is encrypted.

      Maybe the programmers figured the people wanted to read the mail once it got delivered...
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    27. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I do wonder why you sound so bitter about it, though.

      I find the attitude of the OSS community depressing about this subject. They are too close to the technology and can't see the flaws in it.

    28. Re:Better email by plantman-the-womb-st · · Score: 1

      Dear Business Community,

      We in the OSS Community understand that you have needs. We have needs too, so it isn't difficult to empathize. We see that you desire custom email client/server software. Well, that will be very easy to achieve. I can in fact give you a great example of how to make this happen for you. Do what I did! It's really simple and requires no special training or even education. What you do is you go to your favorite bookstore (remember to support your locally owned businesses, they like you, are the backbone of your community) and purchase a book on how to program. That's what I did, and it worked great! I started with just one manual, and I was well on my way to having the custom designed audio synthesis software I'd always dreamed about.

      Or, you could hire a programmer to do it for you, but you'd lose the rich and fulfilling experience of "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". Remember, if you're a lazy bastard who expects other people to do things for them out of the goodness of their hearts when you don't even ask nicely, the terrorizorists win.

      P.S. If you'd asked instead of insulted, perhaps someone would have pointed you to some OSS that already does what you ask.

      P.P.S. Instead, you had to be an asshat.

      --
      Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
    29. Re:Better email by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1

      A pretty decent solution already existed. It's just that folks went with the bandwagon instead of sticking with technology that worked.

      That might not be true in smaller organizations, but it certainly was in those two. The mail servers they replaced PROFS with at NWA were a huge step backwards, IMO.

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    30. Re:Better email by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give up already! use IM or phone if you want to be sure the recipient gets the message...

    31. Re:Better email by richlv · · Score: 1

      what oss has to do this at all ?
      silent loss of a legitimate email is a technical problem. solve it, or find somebody who is responsible for your email system. it can be opensource or proprietary, that doesn't matter much as communication protocols are open.

      if you have a problem with your car, you probably find somebody who knows how to fic it or fix it yourself. you don't go around crying that cars are bad.
      losing emails is not supposed to happen in current email system, so i don't see the point in blaming it as broken in this context.

      --
      Rich
    32. Re:Better email by kfg · · Score: 1

      Print out the email, and deliver it in person.

      That is not a solution to the problem stated.

      That's the only way you would be certain that it arrived and that no one changed the message.

      Because this end is not the desired goal. This end is knowledge of the delivery status, not guaranteed delivery. The two are rather different.

      What he is really asking for is the right to assume delivery, a priori, without evidence of such, but life is, like it or not, uncertain. He might slip and break his neck on his way to hand delivering his message. The people who do best in this world are those who develop viable strategies for coping with things going wrong.

      If this life is causing you to drink
      Sittin' 'round what's the use what to think
      Well I've got some consolation
      Give it to you if I might
      I don't worry 'bout a thing, becuase. . .

      Nothin's goin' to turn out right


      - Mose Allison

      KFG

    33. Re:Better email by blane.bramble · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately SMTP as a protocol is not designed to operate in this way. Email works on the basis of a store and forward system, such that your email may flow through a number of servers to get to its destination. Each of these servers may accept the email without knowing whether the final destination is valid, and then become responsible for forwarding it on to the next hop. There is no direct connection from your computer to the final destination, and no way of signalling the transit of the email, other than sending an email back to you. This used to be done by default in the way of "bounce messages" "Non delivery reports" and "timeout messages". Because of the volume of spam using forged sender information (as sender information is not authenticated in standard SMTP), these are usually turned off, as otherwise you suddenly find your email inundated with thousands of bounces and NDR's etc when someone uses your domain to spam from.

      "Use a new protocol then" is usually the response here, but that is unlikely given the number of existing, working, SMTP installation. If spam is defeated, however, maybe you will find NDR's etc being used again. So, in summary, SMTP already does this, but it's disabled because of people misusing a system that was designed when people were trusted not to abuse it.

    34. Re:Better email by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just ask the person to reply with a "ok i've read it" mail....

      You'll see how that's gonna get annoying with time and wish no one would reply just so you know they've read your message...

    35. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 1

      silent loss of a legitimate email...

      The system should be designed so that emails can never be silently lost. If an message doesn't get through because there's a problem with the recipients system, then I want to know about it. The fact that emails can be silently lost is a major flaw in its design.

      The OSS community could come up with a better solution, but it seems that they would prefer to defend an imperfect system.

    36. Re:Better email by richlv · · Score: 1

      well, maybe the problem is that you are not listening or trying to understand ?

      let's try this again...

      current email system technically provides everything you wanted (though maybe not in the exact ui style you requested).

      legitimate email is not supposed to vanish without a trace. if it does, bug somebody who could help you to find the cause and eliminate it. if all you do is whine on slashdot that the system itself is broken (which isn't), don't wonder that people will be telling you how it really is.

      --
      Rich
    37. Re:Better email by brunson · · Score: 1

      It'll never happen with the current philosophy of email, that's too much information given away to a remote system, it's an invasion of privacy. You have to have the cooperation of the receiving system and I, for one, won't ever give that to you on my mail servers.

      You need to come up with a new protocol that allows for immediate delivery and a backwards flow of delivery information. Something like... hmmmm... I don't know, maybe IM! Which someone already suggested!

      It already exists, use it.

      Besides, just because it got delivered to the remote server doesn't mean it didn't get lost somewhere on that server, or the disk didn't die and lose all the mail, or the server didn't catch on fire, or the recipient didn't delete it without reading it, or die in a car accident before they got to work. You think you're being clever, but you're not.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      Jesus loves you, I think you suck
    38. Re:Better email by richlv · · Score: 1

      oh, gawd. the moderation has gotten you right this time.
      take a hammer and "print" this on your wall :
      "Misspelled mail addresses and ignoring the error notification and so on."

      re-read it every day. once you can grasp it, try to come up with a list of problems you see in current technical implementation and NOT come up with some problems you have experienced and "don't care why they happened".

      i've got to go now so, please, stop this, ok ? ;)

      --
      Rich
    39. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      maybe the problem is that you are not listening

      I am listening...

      legitimate email is not supposed to vanish without a trace.

      But it does.

      The fact of the matter is that emails that many people suffer a lot of problems with emails, from my old ma to the CEOs of large companies. The current email system is flawed. Telling me that it's perfect or that it already does everything that everyone want is just frankly rubbish. The reason I find this subject so annoying is that one day there will be a better messaging system than email, but it looks like it's not going to come from the OSS community.

    40. Re:Better email by edumacator · · Score: 1

      Too true. It isn't your responsibility to secure others' networks, but that isn't the issue. The issue is, if you can't secure the process totally, it isn't secure. So your users, although you have done your job, are still exposed later in the process.

      Of course, I have no ready alternatives to offer up. The tech community is pretty good at finding holes in any system. :)

    41. Re:Better email by mati · · Score: 1

      I'm a developer, but I actually agree with you about the excuses thing. It would, howveer, require everyone to cooperate on the protocol, so it's not something the community could implement unilaterally (ie it would only work if every link in the chain conformed).

      Not an email expert but I think this problem is simply (if not easily) solvable by requiring a positive confirmation from each mail server, with a final confirmation when the recipient client "pulls" it, upon which the confirmation signal would follow the return chain back to the sender. This would require every conforming mail server to keep a log of all "open transactions", which would probably get very sizable for high-traffic servers and/or with delays.

    42. Re:Better email by richlv · · Score: 1

      geez. try citing (and reading) it a little further, will you ?
      cars are not supposed to lose a wheel when driving. they are not supposed to develop cracks in a windshield without a visible reason. shit happens, and _when_ it happens, it must be resolved.

      currently you are arguing that a perfect and never failing system must be created, not that failures which usually happen because of human error (be it user or some administrator) should be analysed & eliminated.

      current system does not lose mail just like that. why don't you pursue each case when a mail is lost, find a reason, push to get it solved if that is a technical problem - and THEN come up with a list of global problems you can find ? i'm sure you will come up with one and that will be human errors or incompetence on system administrators' part.

      --
      Rich
    43. Re:Better email by rthille · · Score: 1

      If the notification of reception is automatic and mandatory then SPAM can easily authenticate addresses. If notification relies on the user to authorize, then it cannot be reliable. Even if you ignore the SPAM problem, you can't determine if a user _READ_ the email, only that their client displayed it. If I am clicking delete, delete, delete to get rid of email, I may not notice that _your_ email flashed up onto the screen in the middle.

      Even registered US mail only tells you that I signed for the envelope, it doesn't tell you I read it. It could have got sat on the entry table with the rest of the junk mail and tossed out by my wife.

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    44. Re:Better email by pubjames · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      It can.

      No it can't. I can send a message and it doesn't get through and I may not get a notification about that.

      Now, I understand what your saying. Your saying that thunderbird, as a email client, does its job properly. I'm saying, email is broken. If thunderbird could solve that - still using email addresses but not using the current email system to send them, then it would be great.

    45. Re:Better email by cortana · · Score: 1

      You are describing read reciepts + the assumption that all email is lost until a reciept is recieved.

    46. Re:Better email by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      So to summarize the point you seem to have missed: what you are saying isn't the fault of the protocol (SMTP), any mail server (postfix, sendmail), or any of the free clients (pine, mutt, Evolution).

      In any of these, this doesn't happen. The *protocol* is not connectionless. When one mail server contacts another, the conversation is something like this:
      Server 1: Are you a mail server?
      Server 2: Yes.
      Server 1: I have a message for userX@yoursystem.com. Take it and deliver it.
      (One of these three, usually):
      Server 2: I have no userX@yoursystem.com.
      Server 2: I can't deliver it because "X". (Presumably X is to be reported back to the client).
      Server 2: I've delivered the message

      If *at any point* either of these exchanges fail, then both of the servers should know about it. Server #1 is responsible for reporting this information so that you know that the message was delivered. The only way these can fail is that one of them isn't doing it's job, and saying that it does.

      Do you blame the internet itself if your cable modem stops working? Why should you blame the e-mail system if your server isn't doing what it's supposed to do to obey the protocol?

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    47. Re:Better email by mini+me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The system should be designed so that emails can never be silently lost.

      Care to share exactly how you would ensure that is true? It can't be solved at the protocol level, the receiving end could make a mistake, or simply lie.

      What if the admin accidently pointed my mailbox to /dev/null. Once /dev/null reads the contents of the e-mail, it is read as far as the software is concerned. You'll think I read the e-mail while I'm blissfully unaware that you ever sent it. Redesign e-mail all you want, but it's impossible to guarantee that any form of computer information exchange happens successfully when you aren't in control of the receiving end.

      Yes it's annoying having to guess if your e-mail made it or not, but this problem can only truly be solved socially.

    48. Re:Better email by bmalia · · Score: 1

      Email is like the weather, everyone complains about it, but no one does anything about it.

      And even if someone did, noone would switch over to use it.

      --
      There's no place like ~/
    49. Re:Better email by swv3752 · · Score: 1

      Email is a best effort much like USPS. You could always try certified post, certified courier, singing telegram, or just hand deliver it yourself, but none of those garauntee that your message will get to its intended recipient.

      The biggest flaw with current email is SPAM. The solution to fixing SPAM is not primarily a technical one. Mostly, it is a social, legal and economic one. A primarily legal means poses to many limitations on my freedoms; I have too little faith to expect social constraints to fix the SPAM problem; and most economic solutions are not viable as well. Come up with a solution to SPAM and the issues with email just disappearing go away.

      The security thing is easy, use GPG/PGP.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    50. Re:Better email by AeroIllini · · Score: 2, Informative

      The fact of the matter is that emails that many people suffer a lot of problems with emails, from my old ma to the CEOs of large companies. The current email system is flawed. Telling me that it's perfect or that it already does everything that everyone want is just frankly rubbish. The reason I find this subject so annoying is that one day there will be a better messaging system than email, but it looks like it's not going to come from the OSS community.

      OK, here's where I think you are confused; perhaps no one has taken the time to explain things to you without getting too technical.

      There are three* types of "undelivered" email, that would all get your mythical red dot, if I understand you correctly:

      1. Email that was sent to an invalid address. A user sends an email to joe.m.bloe@company.com, except that he meant to send it to joe.t.bloe@company.com. In this case, the company.com mail server will "bounce" the email: the sender will get an email message saying, essentially, "I cannot deliver this message because there is no user named joe.m.bloe." If this bounce response is not sent, it is the fault of the administrator, not of the email protocol.

      2. Email that has not yet been read. Some people might consider this "undelivered", although the server considers it delivered because it made it to the right mailbox. What happens after that is the responsibility of the recipient. If you simply HAVE to know when your message is read, then attach a read receipt, which is built right into the protocol. (Please note: most people don't like being spied on, and will not send a receipt when asked by the email client.)

      3. Email that simply goes missing. This breaks down further into two categories:
          a. Filtered email. The administrator of an email server can choose to filter mail, either to take out spam, curb inappropriate content, do virus checking, or whatever. False positives in this situation (non-spam email that was filtered and deleted) are the fault of the administrator/spam-blocker, not of the email protocol. The sender should be notified if a message he sent was filtered.
          b. "Lost" email. "Oh, the reason why that report isn't finished yet is because .... uh .... I never got the email. Yeah." People lie. Deal with it-- it's not the email protocol's fault, nor is it the protocol's job to police it.

      So the reason why most people on Slashdot aren't taking to your idea is that the current system can handle all the various contingencies that might come up. If your emails really are just disappearing without a trace (and you're sure no one is lying about it) then you need to have a serious talk with your administrator about what can be done, because there is something wrong with your company's mail system.

      Many email servers are poorly administrated, it's true. But no amount of coding by the OSS community will fix that. It's not a technical problem at that point; it's a social one. The current protocol contains everything necessary to "guarantee" mail delivery, if such a thing is possible when humans are part of the system.

      On the other hand, if you're just looking for an email client that will place a red dot next to an email conversation that received an Undeliverable Bounce from the server, then you might want to go suggest that feature to the Thunderbird people.

      ----------

      *There is a fourth category--where an email was not forwarded on by one of the middleman servers between point A and point B--but given the generally robust nature of the internet, unless you are using some shady email server that might flake out at any moment (again, the fault of the administrator) or sending your email through shady proxies, the chances of this happening are so very slim as to be completely negligible.

      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    51. Re:Better email by kbielefe · · Score: 1
      Yes it's annoying having to guess if your e-mail made it or not, but this problem can only truly be solved socially.

      I guess your company must not have as smart of management as mine does, because my managers solved this problem years ago:

      • Use high priority flag.
      • Call on phone or stop by desk to make sure email was received.
      • Send regular countdown emails to follow up on the subject of the first email. i.e. I need a response within 3 days, within 2 days, by COB tomorrow, by the end of the day, thanks I received it yesterday.
      • Dedicate a status meeting to the subject of the email.
      • Create a shared spreadsheet to track the status of the subject of the email.
      • Stop by desk to confirm what is stated in any email responses and/or status spreadsheets.
      • Send a series of emails wondering why there is such poor attendance at status meetings, obviously pointing to the need to hold more of them.
      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    52. Re:Better email by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've read your responses, and you know what?

      You're an idiot.

      Please, go off and design that perfect system. Then convince everyone that it's the best and greatest thing since sliced bread.

      Then we'll all laugh as the spammers and fraudsters take advantage of guaranteed delivery and guaranteed indications of 'read' status.

    53. Re:Better email by drouse · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with the troll moderation, and I can't find an answer I like to this question so far in the responses, so let me give this a try:

      Unlike phone systems or paper mail systems, which have comprehensive international-body and governmental regulations to follow, email is a voluntary system specifically designed to work as well as it can in an imperfect and heterogeneous network of networks. What rules that email clients and servers do follow are technical specifications written as early as 1982 -- before business uses of the Internet were even allowed.

      So there is no one who *can* make any delivery guarantees, as there is no central control of the system. Also, there are people who like the fact that there isn't central control, and attempts to create a central control would lead to the balkanization of email (like the current system with IM).

      There were (and in a way, still are -- Exchange, Notes/Groups) competing email systems, but they were burdened by commercial licenses and the inability to easily transmit messages between systems. Regular Internet email won (in part) because it provided a universal (and licensing free) way to send and receive email messages -- not because it was the system with the best features.

      From here, change would be very difficult.

      If someone created another commercial/governmental system for email I think it would be doomed, unless the developer managed to make SMTP email illegal in a good percentage of developed countries.

      To change Internet email to add the feature of "guaranteed, secure delivery" the feature would either have to be backwards compatible with every existing Internet email client and server (which means the feature wouldn't work) or you would have to convince *everybody* to move to new clients and servers -- good luck on that.

      Certainly email has and will continue to evolve, but to go on about your status as a "business user" (who isn't, these day?) isn't likely to be very productive.

      In the mean time, go head with the faxes and certified letters -- and if what you are sending isn't important enough for that, well ... I guess it wasn't that important, was it?

      --
      -- I browse at +5 with stripped sigs ... Ha! Ha!
    54. Re:Better email by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      If the e-mail server correctly conforms to SMTP it will be impossible to lose e-mail unless

      a) the server has been misconfigured e.g. it delivers your mail to /dev/null

      b) the server suffers some catastrophic failure while the e-mail is queued on it e.g. hard disk failure.

      Neither of these issues is limited to open source software. SMTP itself has nothing to do with open source. Even Microsoft implements it.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    55. Re:Better email by Karma+Farmer · · Score: 1

      legitimate email is not supposed to vanish without a trace.

      There is no feature in the design of SMTP email to guarantee this.

      if it does, bug somebody who could help you to find the cause and eliminate it.

      There is no feature in the design of SMTP email to allow the user to know when to do this.

      don't wonder that people will be telling you how it really is.

      There is not feature in the design of Slashdot to encourage factually correct posts.

    56. Re:Better email by kwerle · · Score: 1

      I find the attitude of the OSS community depressing about this subject. They are too close to the technology and can't see the flaws in it.

      email is a very old and very entrenched system. The spec for it is really rather good. Your mail should always be delivered. If it isn't, you should always get get a bounce message.

      But it is impossible to make everyone follow all the rules.

      It's just like the regular mail system. Very very simple. Everyone agrees that mail should be sent, and should be delivered or returned - but that isn't how it always works out. The faults in the regular mail system are often similar to the faults in email: the local postmaster ignores/drops mail, the local postman discards the mail, there is a disaster that destroys mail in process, the destination address is scrambled/old/no longer valid - and so is the sender address. The list goes on and on.

      I ran the same mail system on an 8086 running DOS, of all things, back in '88. And somewhere in the [3rd] world someone is still running it on similar hardware.

      On the other hand, email is flexible enough to let you bolt any number of [partial] fixes onto it - and many have done so. But you can't expect all the bolted on stuff to work on that 8086, far away. Nor can you get everyone to adapt a new [revised] email system.

      email isn't perfect, and there are a few things I would sure like to see it do much better (at all). But is really is quite good, and nearly impossible to change.

    57. Re:Better email by Old+Man+Kensey · · Score: 1
      If you don't get a notification about a message not going through, it is because somewhere along the line, a server accepted it for delivery and something outside the SMTP chain caused that message to disappear. Maybe a rogue admin about to resign his job zapped the entire mailspool. Maybe just before the message got written out of the cache to the spool file on the disk, the server crashed. My point is that no matter how well designed a protocol is, there is always the possibility that things happen outside its ability to deal with.

      The alternative is to default to having acknowledgement on delivery, and assuming a lack of acknowledgement is affirmative evidence that the message was not delivered, but then you a) increase the traffic without providing a real benefit in most cases and b) still have false negatives where you get no acknowledgement (because of an act-of-God issue that prevents you from getting it) even though the message itself actually was delivered. I don't see how Thunderbird (or any other mail client or any mail server or protocol) is supposed to deal with issues like those that exist under its OSI communications layer.

      SMTP has mechanisms to inform the sender about message rejection or failed delivery. They are pretty robust and I can't remember the last time I genuinely failed to receive a message that the sender just didn't get a bounce notice for. It's always been either I got it but overlooked it, they got a bounce but overlooked it, the sender didn't get the bounce because they misconfigured their e-mail client with an incorrect sender address, or I got it and fibbed to the sender.

      You're trying to make a store-and-forward protocol do things a store-and-forward protocol just can't do. You'd have to make a point-to-point connection to every single recipient for every e-mail session to do what you want to do. (We have that, actually -- it's called VOIP, or any number of other client-to-client chat/messaging protocols.)

      --
      -- Old Man Kensey
    58. Re:Better email by bmk67 · · Score: 1
      If an message doesn't get through because there's a problem with the recipient systems, then I want to know about it. The fact that emails can be silently lost is a major flaw in its design. No, it isn't. The fact that emails can be silently lost is a flaw in implementation and/or configuration, not in the design of the system (i.e. the SMTP protocol). In other words, it's the fault of the people running the system, not the system itself, and not those that designed it. I design and write software related to the reliable exchange of messages between hetrogenous systems for a living. Not email, but in a former life, I was sole administrator for a large organization's email system (thousands of users). Email delivery is based upon a store-and-forward delivery model - in terms of reliability, this is the most appropriate model for the medium. I won't bother to explain why, you'll have to accept that statement as fact, or not. In a perfect world, SMTP delivery of mail is 100% reliable: 1) The orginating client (Sender) transmits the message to an mail transmission agent (MTA, or "mail server" to PHBs), which accepts it, and queues it for delivery. If this exchange fails, an error is returned to the client, in which case, no delivery occurred, and presumably, the client has stored the message for later retransmission. 2) If the first MTA is not the delivery destination, the message will be forwarded to another (intermediary) MTA. If this delivery fails, the message queued again for later retransmission. If the message can't be delivered within a specified interval (defined at the whim of the administrator), the message is returned to the sender as a non-delivery notification (NDN), or delivery status notification (DSN). The message may travel between many intermediary MTAs before arriving at the final delivery MTA. 3) Once the message arrives at the delivery MTA (i.e. the one configured to accept delivery of messages for user@domain.com), the message is stored for the recipient's client to pick up. If this delivery fails, a NDN/DSN is sent to the original sender. 4) The client connects to its mail server, and picks up the message using IMAP / POP / Exchange, etc. If this transfer fails, the message should be retained on the server for later pickup. In this perfect work, at each step in the delivery process, there is no opportunity for mail to be "silently lost" without notification. We don't live in that perfect world, however.
      • Administrators may (mis?)configure thier systems, and programmers may code to not return NDN / DSN.
      • Administrators may configure thier systems, and programmers may code to lie about the delivery status of a message.
      • Disks die, and when they do, they may (unknowingly to any software), take your carefully crafted email with it.
      • Administrators may accidently (or intentionally) remove your mail from a queue before it can be delivered.
      • The recipient may have configured his client to forward your message to another desination instead of storing it locally. Has such a message been truly delivered?
      None of this is known, or can be known, in a store-and-forward system. Your only assurance of final delivery is, and can only be, if the recipient chooses to notify you via response to a return receipt request or by responding to the message.
  6. How many times by Billosaur · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What I mean by silo'ed is that email traps information into personalized, unsharable, unsearchable vacuums where no one else can access it - the Email Inbox. Think of your Email Inbox as a heavily fortified walled garden. Not mentioning the difficulties many have accessing their Email Inbox outside the corporate firewall, the Email Inbox contains a hodgepodge of business, personal and private information that most people do not want to share with others.

    Unfortunately, the Walled Gardens of our Email Inboxes are deceivingly warm and cozy. This feigned-comfort of safety whispers into our ears like a wily devil to, "Just email the document to me" or "Just email that document to yourself" with the false-belief that it will remain safe, secure and locked away. But that is just it......its locked away so that NO ONE ELSE CAN ACCESS IT. This is counter-culture to team collaboration.

    And how many times have you sent out a document for comment and gotten back 30 different versions with markups, which you then have to reintegrate into one document and somehow handle inconsistencies and overlap? Then of course you need the document, but don't have a copy where you're at, so you retrieve one from an email and use that, but it's an old version, so you have to recreate revisions. And then someone always emails you their revisions late, after you think you're all done (usually it's your boss, so it's not like you can just leave them out).

    If nothing else, you need a document collaboration tool, to avoid this nightmare of multiple files, and email is not it.

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    1. Re:How many times by Politburo · · Score: 1

      It sounds like what you need is a sane workflow. A collaboration tool will certainly help, but you've got other issues.

    2. Re:How many times by gwait · · Score: 1

      Which is why documentation programs (Word, Open Office etc) need to start supporting standard (real actually working non proprietary networked) version control software.
      I set up a copy of "Twiki" at work to allow our engineering dept. to share documents, it at least uses RCS, but it's hard to convince people of the advantages of this approach over the flood of word docs in email and in non secured windows shares. ("Where did all my edits go?".. "Oh sorry about that, I copied my version into x:/corporate/documents, since mine is more up to date...")

      --
      Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
    3. Re:How many times by atomic_toaster · · Score: 1

      And how many times have you sent out a document for comment and gotten back 30 different versions with markups, which you then have to reintegrate into one document and somehow handle inconsistencies and overlap? Then of course you need the document, but don't have a copy where you're at, so you retrieve one from an email and use that, but it's an old version, so you have to recreate revisions. And then someone always emails you their revisions late, after you think you're all done (usually it's your boss, so it's not like you can just leave them out)

      Or you could just save the document to a shared folder and have everyone work on the same copy of the document. Having everyone work on the same file could mean that people save over other peoples' work, though. Or you could send it to one person, get it back, make the changes... Although this means that it could take a while.

      Honestly, though, it's no worse than printing up the document and having all of the proofers mark it up in red pen. At least this way there's not as much paper waste.

    4. Re:How many times by colleesu · · Score: 1

      Having a collaboration tool won't alleviate all of this problem. If you've got 30 people collaborating, management has to be a large part the process. That is, thinking ahead and deciding who reviews when, what each participant's role involves (feedback, edit, write), and prescribing how they add their ideas. The process I've used (with email/word) involves sending a document from one person to the other, so when it arrives at the end of the line, all the comments are there in one document. Then one person (or a team) decides what to keep/cut.

  7. The Real Problem by Atomm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I believe the problem with Email is usually only 10% of what you are trying to communicate is actually understood.

    Sort of like posting on slashdot..... :-)

    1. Re:The Real Problem by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 3, Funny

      Could you explain your post further? All I got was "the."

    2. Re:The Real Problem by Ckwop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe the problem with Email is usually only 10% of what you are trying to communicate is actually understood.

      Sort of like posting on slashdot..... :-)

      I know your joking but you're absolutely correct. This is a very serious problem with e-mail and why using the phone should be prefered over it. You see, when you're speaking to someone face to face or even over the telephone a lot of the information is contained in the delivery. Your body language and intonation help to create context and help the message get across to the listener.

      E-mail, by contrast has none of this. Writing an e-mail that your audience will understand first time - both in tone and in content - takes considerable effort and skill. E-mails are often not considered fully. Hands up if you've sent an e-mail quickly and realised the tone of the e-mail makes it sound very hard and demanding? I suspect most of us have!

      Because writing clear e-mails is difficult, people often resort to writing bullshit instead. The idea being is that if you can bedazzle the recipient enough with your buzzwords and other pseudo-words that they feel inferior and are unlikely to ask for clarification.

      Why do we need software to collaborate? Humans have always collaborated best when sat around a table talking to each other. In my opinion, the software solves a problem that would be better solved by taking the time to see each other in the flesh.

      It may be expensive but it's less expensive than getting it wrong and ruining the reputation you had with your client.

      Simon

    3. Re:The Real Problem by snarkh · · Score: 3, Funny

      He said something about Salshdot replacing e-mail.

    4. Re:The Real Problem by Crizp · · Score: 1
      You see, when you're speaking to someone face to face or even over the telephone a lot of the information is contained in the delivery. Your body language and intonation help to create context and help the message get across to the listener.

      E-mail, by contrast has none of this. Writing an e-mail that your audience will understand first time - both in tone and in content - takes considerable effort and skill.

      It is possible to convey "intonation" in text - using italicised and boldfaced text. It's just a shame "normal" users don't understand the text-only _italic/underline_ and *bold* markups. Also, using descriptive phrases such as "$subject - this is imperative" and "$subject - can be downprioritised" is helpful.

      The only problem I see - as you point out - is that people can neither write nor read a properly structured sentence to save their lives.

    5. Re:The Real Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we all know that people never mis-interpret body language and tone. Oral communication never goes wrong. No wars have ever been started when heads-of-state met 'around a table' - it's all those damn letters between them as started the wars.

      Ok, Ok, I'm being facetious of course, and you raise some valid points, but there are cases where the written word can be a much better form of communication because you can get a full line of thought down without interruption by the other parties, and also because you *can* strip written communications, if done properly, from having almost any emotional 'charge' to it. That is, you can write words that have almost a complete lack of tone, so that people focus on what you say, as opposed to how you say it (I know this is not always possible - I've had personal experience with people who manage to read into things what they want to, and ultimately there is no way to prevent that - only to try to rebut it later before 3rd parties).

      So ultimately, it comes down to figuring out what is the best way to communicate the message in a particular case. I wouldn't make a blanket statement such as "using the phone should be prefered over [email]".

      Email also has the advantage of keeping an exact record of what both parties said (in case there is a later dispute - ever have someone twist your words viciously to be something completely different than what you actually said? I have, and it's not fun.) - something that oral communications usually does not have (yes, it's possible to record phone calls, no most people don't do that on a regular basis - and you have to be careful not to run afoul of wiretapping laws when recording phone conversations).

    6. Re:The Real Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Long story short: Email considered harmful.

    7. Re:The Real Problem by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

      Writing an e-mail that your audience will understand first time - both in tone and in content - takes considerable effort and skill.

      Sure it does.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
    8. Re:The Real Problem by Firehed · · Score: 1

      If your coworkers can't understand "lunch is at noon today" or something equally useless, they should be immediately fired. I've sent emails that were entirely in l33tspeak and once as a makeshift C code and all got the point across.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    9. Re:The Real Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bold and italics don't quite cover the full subtlety of human communication. How much of this subtlety is required depends on the exchange in question, of course. I think the point, though, is that things tend to be ambiguous without the author realising they are, and as such may be lacking in helpful formatting.

    10. Re:The Real Problem by OakDragon · · Score: 1
      Writing an e-mail that your audience will understand first time - both in tone and in content - takes considerable effort and skill.

      I agree, you brain-dead moron.

      See? You probably thought I just insulted you! :)

    11. Re:The Real Problem by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      The other person may not know what your going on about with email, but at least you do and you have a record of it. When I'm on the phone to someone I usually have a new message open, that I type our conversation into, edit into somethine more logical and then email to myself for future reference.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    12. Re:The Real Problem by Bri3D · · Score: 1

      That's what emoticons were created for. If emoticons aren't combined with OMG LOL HAX teenage-girl speak I find them to be an excellent way to express emotion in e-mail.

      I believe that emoticons should become an "acceptable" form of expression in corporate e-mail, simply to avoid this issue as a phone call is not always an availiable method of contact.

    13. Re:The Real Problem by jmkrtyuio · · Score: 1

      Enough of this bull. People who cant write email that others can understand are the same ones who cant write anything that anyone can understand. People who cant understand email written by intelligent folk needs to understand the problem is them and their expectation that reading every fifth word of the message will somehow transmit the meaning through their synaptics.

      Sometime you actualy have to read a sentence twice. Its not the end of the world. Just do it.

      And I much prefer sending email to phone conversations. Anyone who.....

      - doesnt want to deal with end user crap
      - doesnt want to take his headphone off every five minutes
      - multitasks
      - prefers to manage their own time
      - likes to triage incoming issues and assign priorites
      - wants to work on the issues in their own fashion
      - notices that nothing usefull ever comes out of phone call that could not have been written as a few lines in an email
      - Is not afraid that people will actually have a record of what they said
      - wishes that all their phone calls were call screened
      - enjoys being able to ignore things that are non-respondable to, for any variety of reasons .... prefers email to phone calls.

      C'mon. Phone calls are the equivalent of realtime single threaded cooperative multitasking. Who wants to do real time when you can do soft time preemptive multitasking scheduling?

      And conference calls! Complete and utter waste time. Best idea of this whole story and associated comments was to setup a nntp server and use newsgroups.

    14. Re:The Real Problem by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

      Well, I was kinda shooting for a joke there. "Sure it does" is one of those phrases that if you say it seriously is positive, but with a slight change of inflection is extremely negative and sarcastic. Just trying to have a little fun with the original poster, but nobody got the joke. In a way, that's kinda funny too considering the topic.

      Anyway, as for the "fired if you don't understand the lunch email"...well, I agree with you in spirit. Kinda. Read the RFC for SMTP, 2821 and you'll understand my objection. Here's the important bit, from 4.5.4.1, "Sending Strategy":

      In a typical system, the program that composes a message has some method for requesting immediate attention for a new piece of outgoing mail, while mail that cannot be transmitted immediately MUST be queued and periodically retried by the sender. A mail queue entry will include not only the message itself but also the envelope information.

      The sender MUST delay retrying a particular destination after one attempt has failed. In general, the retry interval SHOULD be at least 30 minutes; however, more sophisticated and variable strategies will be beneficial when the SMTP client can determine the reason for non-delivery.

      In other words, if the network is busy or some other odd hiccup happens, the RFC recommends waiting a minimum of a half an hour (or possibly a lot more) before a retransmit. This is why time sensitive stuff should never be emailed - you could be fired for not showing up for that lunch, and it may not be your fault at all. I personally have seen email messages sit in a queue for as long as 2 days before my recipient receives it.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
  8. Conflicting statements? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the article:

    The single worst trait of email is that it's silo'ed.

    Then he says:

    For many folks, the Email Inbox contains their most intimate secrets all mashed together into a single location: business correspondences, contracts, proposals, reminders, tasks, love letters, indiscreet online purchases, dirty jokes, pictures of your spouse (and kids), time-wasting games, inappropriate messages from co-workers and friends and lets not forget spam.

    To me it seems like the perfect argument for why email should be silo'ed, and that it's one of the reasons why it is still so popular. I completely agree with his comment that there is a wealth of information hidden within emails that others could/would find useful. However, there obviously is even more that most would find useless or that the inbox owner wouldn't want visible. To me email represents the best, if flawed compromise. If the inbox owner wants to, they can redistribute their emails to a wider audience. This can be done by forwarding, or in Outlook, simply dragging the email to a public folder. I think the alternative approach, assume that everything is public and force the user (either sender or receiver) to selectively "hide" or "target" emails falls too far on the "other side" for most companies.

  9. IM (or IRC) and Wiki by fak3r · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In development over the last 5 years I think the most useful tools are IM (or IRC) and Wiki. Email can be used to setup a time to meet/work on things, from there constant talk back/forth via IM is perfect. Hashing out overall ideas via the Wiki is perfect for before and after, and allows for ones ideas to get fully out there, then edited by others during critque.

    This has been true for me working on OSS at night with a partner in Qubec as well as working in the same office with a developer two aisles away.

    1. Re:IM (or IRC) and Wiki by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wow, do we work for the same company?? I work for a smallish business that's divided into two offices, one in Canada and one in the US, separated by a two hour time difference, and we've recently incorporated those exact tools into our workflow. IRC has been invaluable, allowing realtime, quick feedback on issues when the need arises without being overly obnoxious (unlike many IM clients). And recently, we've begun making serious use of a Wiki for authoring technical material, as it drastically lowers the barrier for generating and publishing content for consumption by the technical staff.

      Incidentally, MeatballWiki has a great page that summarizes the role that wikis can play in a corporate environment here. It's worth a read if you're thinking about deploying something like this.

  10. You need to check your copy-paste functionnality ! by alexhs · · Score: 1

    "The Bad in Email or (Why Steve Ballmer is the CTO of Microsoft)"

    Except the article says :
    Therefore, we'd like to present The Bad In Email, or Why Ray Ozzie is the CTO of Microsoft.

    There's a bug somewhere... maybe bad RAM, or buggy software, maybe between the chair and keyboard (if your chair hasn't been thrown away by Steve, that is) :)

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
  11. Undelivered mail, return to sender by Odiumjunkie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A fairly insightful article, but it misses a couple of points:

    It's difficult (if not impossible) for the average user to discern who an e-mail is actually from. Most people have no idea about message headers or IP addresses. It is trivial to send e-mail spoofing the address, and have 95% of people unquestioningly believe it's from the address you specify. This is one of the biggest and easiest to exploit weaknesses in e-mail.

    E-mail is incredibly easy to ignore. Really, really, really easy. Claiming you didn't receive an e-mail is a get-out to any number of problems in collaborative projects, mostly because it's so common - it's fairly easy for an e-mailto not get to its recipient, be it an over zealous spam-filtering policy, a misconfigured mail server somewhere along the line or a lack of space on a company intranet (combined with badly configured mail servers which are relatively common).

    1. Re:Undelivered mail, return to sender by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      Yup - it's not only a convenient excuse, but legitimate.

      Unless I'm running an online business, I certainly don't approach my email as if I have to look at every hour on the dot. Sometimes I even let it sit for a week at a time if I'm not expecting anything.

      If someone has something important to say, call me.

      And conversely, if someone has something trivial to say (telemarketers, etc), email me so my spam filter can kick in.

      Just because email is convenient doesn't mean it should be used in all situations.

    2. Re:Undelivered mail, return to sender by linvir · · Score: 1
      Part of the fraud problem is the simplicity in the client display. If Outlook Express and Thunderbird sometimes said "Hey wait a minute there's more to this...", instead of rigidly sticking to displaying an address, the problem would be mostly avoided.

      Fortunately anti-phishing is becoming a buzzword.

    3. Re:Undelivered mail, return to sender by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      I don't know if they ever fixed this in Outlook, but I remember getting a grumpy email back in college from one of the manager-types in Computing Services there. They were complaining because I was masking the "To" and "From" lines in my emails. I was perplexed initially.

      Then it clicked. For fun, I was using Elm's ability to add arbitrary headers to each email. I figured anyone geeky enough to look at the headers might get a chuckle at some geek humor stashed there. Well, among the fun headers I added were "Apparently-To:" and "Apparently-From:". All the other email clients seem to ignore those if actual To: and From: lines are present. Outlook, on the other hand, gave the "Apparently-To" and "Apparently-From" precedence though.

      That was 10 years ago, so by now it's probably fixed. Or maybe not...

      --Joe
    4. Re:Undelivered mail, return to sender by sootman · · Score: 1

      Claiming you didn't receive an e-mail is a get-out to any number of problems in collaborative projects...

      And that's why it is the perfect tool for a work environment. :-)

      In all seriousness, remember when email was just about perfect? Except for the occasional server mishap, every message got through, and they were all good. (Except for chain letters, 'Good Times' warnings, etc., from well-intentioned noobs and clueless relatives.) Then along came spammers, followed by imperfect filtering, and now email is just another part of my life with an unspectacular S:N ratio. Tragedy of the commons, indeed. Make an awesome messaging system with a cost per message that is almost zero and what happens? Fucking assholes think I need to hear about rolex replicas, generic soft tabs, mortgages, and small caps fifty fucking times a day. I'd kill them all if I could.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    5. Re:Undelivered mail, return to sender by raduf · · Score: 1

      Claiming you didn't receive an e-mail is a get-out to any number of problems in collaborative projects, mostly because it's so common - it's fairly easy for an e-mailto not get to its recipient, be it an over zealous spam-filtering policy, a misconfigured mail server somewhere along the line or a lack of space on a company intranet (combined with badly configured mail servers which are relatively common).

          Yeah, that's why i really hate "company" mail servers. I've used yahoo and then gmail for many a year and, with a veeery ocasional email that i _found_ in bulk (as in not miss it) i never had any problems. Almost every person with a work email i talk to has problems. I'll never understand why people are so stubborn when it comes to realising email management is a job for the pros, and no, your _one_ man IT mail department, no matter how genious he is (or you are for that matter) can't even begin to compare with yahoo. And also all email should be web based. No need to store emails locally and let the user delete them from the server - leads to missing Important Emails.

          The usual excuse is that companies can't have yahoo.com addresses. Well buy a business solution from yahoo! Or some other company (big and old preferably) who offers this kind of thing. Managing your own email just cause you have a server is a BIG mistake.

  12. Read Recipts by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    I have that turned off. You will never know :) And no one can even read my calendar, let alone insert ( except the exchange admin of course, which i am one )

    Oh, and if you tag it as important. i ignore it that much faster.

    Yes i know you were joking.. however i wasnt...

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Read Recipts by chaim79 · · Score: 1, Offtopic
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
      WTF?
      --
      DEMETRIUS: Villain, what hast thou done?
      AARON: Villain, I have done thy mother.
      Shakespeare invents 'your mom'
    2. Re:Read Recipts by nurb432 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Yes, that is what i said. I wont go into why i say that he was. Done that in the past. I hate repeating myself.

      And how the hell does 'wtf' get modded as interesting? Should be a level called 'annoying'.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    3. Re:Read Recipts by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
      WTF?

      Not the one this as directed at, but...John Wilkes Booth loved his "country" (the terrorist organization known as the Confederate States of America being, to his mind, a legitimate nation); he loved it enough to kill and die for it. I don't know the GP poster's intention in bringing that up; but to me, patriotism has always been a questionable virtue for just that reason. If it's a virtue to "love your country", what if your country is an ass?

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    4. Re:Read Recipts by chaim79 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the reasonable reply, and I can see the point being made... but on first sight the only thing that comes to a person's mind is... well... "wtf"... and bewilderment...

      --
      DEMETRIUS: Villain, what hast thou done?
      AARON: Villain, I have done thy mother.
      Shakespeare invents 'your mom'
  13. I don't know what happens where the author works.. by Rinzai · · Score: 1, Informative
    ...but where I work, we aggregate critical business requirement documents and estimate spreadsheets in a common location, and we expect that anything of consequence will be done in them, not in e-mail. When I have a software issue to resolve, I communicate with the Business Analyst via e-mail, so siloing occurs, but the BA is the locus of all requests, so he has a trail of everything that was sent regarding the project. I don't see what he communicates with the Project Manager, because according to our internal security rules, I'm not allowed access to that information. (Put another way, if they want me to see it, I'll get it in e-mail, or see it in one of the central documents.)

    Where's the problem, again?

  14. Scare Tactics by RedHat+Rocky · · Score: 4, Informative

    "If you are using POP or IMAP, you need to know that they both require you to send unencrypted authentication (username/password)."

    Ah, not necessarily. Especially in the IMAP world, see IMAP over SSL.

    [insert story about linux box and IMAP/SSL/MUTT]

    Here's the real problem: You tried to scare your audience with concepts that your target audience doesn't understand. You can't scare ignorant people, see low limit Texas Hold'em.

    --
    Anything is possible given time and money.
    1. Re:Scare Tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Low limit Texas Hold'em is fun. Why be sour because you suck at it?

    2. Re:Scare Tactics by jeaton · · Score: 1
      Wow, thh article is just so blatently wrong that I don't even know where to begin. On my mail servers, you _cannot_ login in with unencrypted authentication. You must use either SSL or Kerberos for authentication.

      Cyrus has a simple configuration option for this:
      allowplaintext: no
      Baffling.
    3. Re:Scare Tactics by AnyoneEB · · Score: 1

      Of course, there is nothing stopping you from using, or even requiring, SSL on POP, too. Unforunately, I don't know about your e-mail servers, but my ISP does not even support it.

      --
      Centralization breaks the internet.
    4. Re:Scare Tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not being sour. He's bang on. The weaker the player the harder it is to get them to fold.

  15. Lots of ill-minded arguments in TFA :( by alexhs · · Score: 1

    Some great quotes :

    Email is NOT Secure (Part 1)
    [...]
    (Anyone using cryptographic e-mail is in the minority and the exception to the rule.)


    Anyone needing secure e-mail is in the minority and the exception to the rule.

    there is no way to 'retract' your email.

    And how are you retracting your mail ?

    Email is Prone to Viruses
    There is no need to elaborate here.


    You should make an effort. I do not understand.

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:Lots of ill-minded arguments in TFA :( by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      There is a way to retract emails, but it isn't exactly ethical. What was that comment you made about security?

      --Joe
    2. Re:Lots of ill-minded arguments in TFA :( by ethereal · · Score: 1

      I get plenty of people that try to retract their email; I can only assume it's not working since I'm not using Outlook like they are. Retracting an email seems kind of 1984-ish to me; I'm not sure we want to encourage that sort of behavior. And don't even get me started on read receipts (yuck).

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

  16. Let me guess by Tweekster · · Score: 0, Troll

    MS has a product that will completely solve all these problems....

    --
    The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
    1. Re:Let me guess by dave562 · · Score: 1

      SharePortal services?

  17. The Al-Queda e-mail method for collaboration by gordonb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is a way to use e-mail as such a tool, which was the preferred method used by the Spanish Al-Queda cell:

    1. Open e-mail account (on your own web mail server, preferably) and publish username/password to members of cell/department/workgroup.

    2. Write e-mail detailing plan and save as "draft."

    3. After connecting by SSL, other co-workers/conspirators view and edit draft or attach comments for all to browse and update.

    4. If server is owned by group, files are as secure as the passwords and OS. If a public/commercial server is used, drafts and connection IPs may be discovered and will persist on backups and logs.

    1. Re:The Al-Queda e-mail method for collaboration by Niet3sche · · Score: 1
      There is a way to use e-mail as such a tool, which was the preferred method used by the Spanish Al-Queda cell: 1. Open e-mail account (on your own web mail server, preferably) and publish username/password to members of cell/department/workgroup. 2. Write e-mail detailing plan and save as "draft." 3. After connecting by SSL, other co-workers/conspirators view and edit draft or attach comments for all to browse and update. 4. If server is owned by group, files are as secure as the passwords and OS. If a public/commercial server is used, drafts and connection IPs may be discovered and will persist on backups and logs.

      No, there's actually a much better way for terrorist cells to get in touch with each other, and it does NOT involve email.

    2. Re:The Al-Queda e-mail method for collaboration by NaDrew · · Score: 1
      No, there's actually a much better way for terrorist cells to get in touch with each other, and it does NOT involve email.
      But the post entry field was too small to contain it?
      --
      Vista:XPSP2::ME:98SE
    3. Re:The Al-Queda e-mail method for collaboration by Niet3sche · · Score: 1
      But the post entry field was too small to contain it?

      No, I just live in a country where revealing a "better terrorist communication method" may well equate to sedition and/or treason.

      Although you can freely read about it in publication.

  18. This is offtopic.... by szembek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Part of this article drives me nuts, and I see the same crap in /. comments all the time:

    2. The data is often 'NSFW' (Not Safe For Work).

    Why did he use the acronym if he defines it directly after use. The only reason he should do this is if he used 'NSFW' elsewhere in the article, which he does not. The writer should decide whether he feels this acronym is recognizable enough to use without a definition. If it is then use it, otherwise don't!

    Fixed:
    2. The data is often not safe for work.

    --
    nothing
    1. Re:This is offtopic.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If you are going to fix his writing fix it all the way, the word data is plural. Fixed: 2. The data are often not safe for work.

    2. Re:This is offtopic.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in standard American usage.

    3. Re:This is offtopic.... by mikeh9741 · · Score: 0

      Maybe he wanted people to be able to search for nsfw and find it. Sure, they're likely to search for "Not Safe For Work" as well, but it's easier to search for nsfw.

    4. Re:This is offtopic.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor is the correct spelling of polysyllabic word but that doesn't make it any more acceptable. Don't be a retard - there's no excuse for not using language properly.

    5. Re:This is offtopic.... by LarryWake · · Score: 1
      2. The data is often 'NSFW' (Not Safe For Work).

      Why did he use the acronym if he defines it directly after use.

      Simple: he's addressing two audiences. The first is comprised of those familiar with the initialism (not "acronym" -- there's a difference), so he's now established his street cred, and everyone in the know can say to themselves "NFSW, heh heh." The second is those unacquainted with the term; he's kind enough to not leave them in the dark. NFSW is a popular slang term, so it should be used here; explaining it as well is a courtesy to those who haven't seen it before or always wondered what it meant.

      If you're going to expend energy on grammar crusades, may I suggest working on "its/it's" confusion -- which almost seems to be a badge of honor among Slashdot editors -- "you/you're" confusion, and the rising tide of "formerly/formally" confusion, which is the one that's really starting to bug me.

    6. Re:This is offtopic.... by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 1

      Because it's normally written in the "NSFW" acronym form, so this way his readers will recognize the term when they see it 'in the wild'.

  19. E-mail R.I.P. (1968-1999) by dada21 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    E-mail will have been dead for close to a decade in 3 years. Yes, we all still use it. Yes, it is a primary form of communications for anything over 30 miles. And yes, the horse is dead but we'll still beat it.

    I stopped using e-mail as my primary form of communications almost 7 years ago (about the time I started using SMS en masse, combined with instant messaging when available). For me, e-mail is no different than TV, radio and telephone -- all technologies that should have been replaced eons ago but for whatever reason have been held back from evolving.

    I agree that e-mail is a terrible collaboration tool, but considering when it was "invented" and how few real iterations of change we've seen with in, I don't expect it to ever blossom into a truly useful tool for productivity. I would have to guess that while e-mail is more efficient than a fax or a letter, it is not a telephone replacement, nor is it a replacement for even a simple post-it note. The only collaboration-friendly element of e-mail is the idea that it leaves a log or an audit trail of exchanges, but it is missing all the other important elements for group-think or idea creation.

    I believe the future of connecting everyone within a group to one another plus incorporating outside groups into the "conversation" will likely come out of a different technology than e-mail. I see great possibilities in RSS and XML as a platform for long term collaboration, and the Wiki idea is a step in the right direction. Combine both with a tagging feature and incorporate more than just text, and you have a mess of protocols that together can really make a difference for building and sharing ideas. Maybe a little slashdot-style user-modifiable open-view moderation, too. Before any protocol or format can be created that really is the end-all solution, we need the underlying platform to be finalized. We need the Net available all the time, everywhere, at low cost (commodity-priced) and at high speed. I believe that the EDGE/3G networks are getting us closer (I am typing over an EDGE-connected T-Mobile link now), but we're not there yet. When information can be accessed immediately, when notifications can become part of the data stream, and when the ability stream your thought into a final product with anyone else, I think we'll see that product that many of us are waiting for without knowing it.

    I've given a lot of thought to collaboration tools of the future, and I know exactly what I want. I just know that even if I implemented it today, most of my workers, friends, co-writers and readers would not be able to mesh with the Wiki-XML-SMS-Slashdot-tagging tree with the speed that I would think is necessary to make that collaboration better than a simple whiteboard and a boardroom.

    Another few months, maybe. A few years, for sure.

    1. Re:E-mail R.I.P. (1968-1999) by sploxx · · Score: 1

      I see great possibilities in RSS and XML as a platform for long term collaboration, and the Wiki idea is a step in the right direction.

      What does XML have to do with collaboration at all? I had the impression that XML is outdated as a buzzword now.

      XML is at most a standarddized markup for tree-like data structures. But there is nothing really new in XML. The LISP world has s-expressions, even the IFF file format on the good old amiga had hierachical chunks - and this in the 80s.

  20. One more reason by hcdejong · · Score: 1

    Overzealous spam filters. I've recently tried to send PDF and JPG files to some people, and failed. The recipients' ISP's filters blackholed either the attachments or the entire message. Nuts!
    Another intended recipient has a local spam filter that somehow checks the messages while still on the POP server. This takes bloody ages, causing the transfer to time out. Lather, rinse, repeat. As a result, he has to use a webmail client to receive large messages.
    And then there's Outlook's inability to receive executables. Yes, I know viruses blah blah blah, but there are times when I've a legitimate reason to send someone an .exe. Being able to tell Outlook "yes, I know what's at stake, show me the damn attachment anyway" would help.

    1. Re:One more reason by dave562 · · Score: 1
      And then there's Outlook's inability to receive executables. Yes, I know viruses blah blah blah, but there are times when I've a legitimate reason to send someone an .exe. Being able to tell Outlook "yes, I know what's at stake, show me the damn attachment anyway" would help.

      There are tweaks that allow Outlook to open whatever attachment you want. They can be rolled out via GPO. Or just do what everyone else in the world does... .ZIP the .EXE.

  21. I'm not impressed by the article by Old+Man+Kensey · · Score: 5, Informative
    The article starts off strong, but it has a couple of glaring issues that makle me question how qualified the author is to actually be talking authoritatively:

    1. "If you are using SMTP (the universal pipe, remember?), you need to know that it doesn't encrypt data/messages. If you are using POP or IMAP, you need to know that they both require you to send unencrypted authentication (username/password)."

    None of these is true. Encrypted SMTP, POP and IMAP all exist and we've been using encrypted POP/IMAP where I work for over two years now.

    2. In the discussion of encrypted e-mail, he jumps straight into certificates with no acknowledgement or apparently even clue that PGP/etc. exist and are a lot simpler to set up and use (even in Outlook, or even manually if you have to).

    3. "Eudora Security Flashback: I still don't know what the hell Kerberos is and what it has to do with a dog much less my email?"

    Considering that this guy is, judging from the content of his post, very Microsoft-centered, for him to not know what Kerberos is suggests he is not even close to any kind of expertise in the field.

    4. "Most companies spend a fortune locking down their IT infrastructure. This results in either Total Lockdown, also known as Paralysis whereby no one can do anything without a password, passkey, keycard, signature and sign-in sheet; or in No Lockdown, also known as Free-Love-Utopia whereby everyone is equal because everyone is an Administrator."

    Um... no? He says "This results" as though these alternatives are the only two possible. This is probably just sloppy writing, but it still sticks out at me.

    5. "If everyone used Outlook (70% of Central Desktop users use Outlook), then the ability to assign priority to each message would actually work. But we don't live in a Microsoft world (in spite of what many of you might think) and instead, we usually measure and weigh the importance of an email message by the number of people included in the carbon copy. This is highly subjective and fails to address the need to order and sort messages and task by importance."

    I know from personal experience that Eudora among others had the capability to set and recognize a Priority or read-receipt header as long as 10 years ago. Priority fell out of favor because of abuse by spammers, but it does exist. And that was valid for any message sent to or from anyone on the Internet. Can we trust Outlook's read-receipt and priority flags to be as portable?

    6. "Its still challenging for multiple people to share business email accounts (i.e. support, bugs and sales messages). IMAP sort of works, but presents its fair-share of limitations."

    Such as? How could IMAP be better? Given the inherent needs and limits of sharing what is essentially a file folder, I think IMAP is designed about as well as it can be. There could be improvements, but nothing I can think of that would make me go "wow! It's a whole different IMAP!"

    7. "Email is Prone to Viruses - There is no need to elaborate here."

    Yes there is, because (say it with me!) E-MAIL IS NOT PRONE TO VIRUSES. E-MAIL CLIENTS ARE.

    There are some good points in this article, but you have to filter them out from the sophistry.

    --
    -- Old Man Kensey
    1. Re:I'm not impressed by the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      --snip--
      1. "If you are using SMTP (the universal pipe, remember?), you need to know that it doesn't encrypt data/messages. If you are using POP or IMAP, you need to know that they both require you to send unencrypted authentication (username/password)."

      None of these is true. Encrypted SMTP, POP and IMAP all exist and we've been using encrypted POP/IMAP where I work for over two years now.
      --snip--

      I've seen this mentioned a few times and feel the need to comment. This is all well and good as long as your e-mail remains within the organization. However, the vast majority of SMTP servers out in the wild don't implement TLS or SSL, so as soon as you have to collaborate with external business partners your beautifully secure IMAPS/SMTPS architecture is useless. The problem with e-mail is it is Very Difficult(TM) to ensure end to end encryption of your message unless you use PKI, PGP or some other application layer encryption. And these technologies just aren't in widespread enough deployment to be practical in a business setting.

    2. Re:I'm not impressed by the article by besenslon · · Score: 1

      The comment has a couple of glaring issues that makle me question how qualified the author is to actually be talking authoritatively:

      1. None of these is true. Encrypted SMTP, POP and IMAP all exist and we've been using encrypted POP/IMAP where I work for over two years now.

      In the article it is clearly stated, that you may encrypt the traffic between the client machine and the server, but once there, the traffic between SMTP hosts is not encrypted.

      2. Considering that this guy is, judging from the content of his post, very Microsoft-centered, for him to not know what Kerberos is suggests he is not even close to any kind of expertise in the field.

      Kerberos is not M$ invention. Actually they put a lot of efforts to modify it, so it can not easily interop with the other implementations.

      3. Such as? How could IMAP be better?...

      He says that IMAP has limitations. The whole article is about the limitations in the e-mail system, and the result should be a better collaboration system, without these limitations. It was never meant to suggest improvement in IMAP, etc.

      4. Yes there is, because (say it with me!) E-MAIL IS NOT PRONE TO VIRUSES. E-MAIL CLIENTS ARE.

      This is only part of the problem. With the limited (if any widely used) ability to really authenticate the sender (say with me: EMAIL SPOOF), you can easily mislead the recipient to open a malicious file.

      Yes, there are some good points in your comment, but you have to filter them out from the sophistry.

    3. Re:I'm not impressed by the article by qzulla · · Score: 1
      I liked this the best:

      3. "Eudora Security Flashback: I still don't know what the hell Kerberos is and what it has to do with a dog much less my email?"

      Considering that this guy is, judging from the content of his post, very Microsoft-centered, for him to not know what Kerberos is suggests he is not even close to any kind of expertise in the field.

      I think this is a subtle/obvious to some troll. Hell and kerberos and dog. He is close to the mark here. The clues say he DOES know how it all relates.

      qz

    4. Re:I'm not impressed by the article by cortana · · Score: 1
      In the article it is clearly stated, that you may encrypt the traffic between the client machine and the server, but once there, the traffic between SMTP hosts is not encrypted.
      Actually an awful lot of it is encrypted. But if you really want end to end encryption, use it.
    5. Re:I'm not impressed by the article by esper · · Score: 1
      1. None of these is true. Encrypted SMTP, POP and IMAP all exist and we've been using encrypted POP/IMAP where I work for over two years now.
      In the article it is clearly stated, that you may encrypt the traffic between the client machine and the server, but once there, the traffic between SMTP hosts is not encrypted.

      So let me see if I've got this straight... You're saying that encrypted SMTP is not encrypted?
    6. Re:I'm not impressed by the article by Old+Man+Kensey · · Score: 1
      1. None of these is true. Encrypted SMTP, POP and IMAP all exist and we've been using encrypted POP/IMAP where I work for over two years now.

      In the article it is clearly stated, that you may encrypt the traffic between the client machine and the server, but once there, the traffic between SMTP hosts is not encrypted.

      Unless you use SMTP hosts that support encryption. But really, the idea that SMTP hosts need to do that is a non-starter. If people need to send each other encrypted e-mail, they can do it themselves using GPG or whatever public-key method they choose. SMTP is and only ever should be about flinging raw bits around in something like a reliable fashion.

      Besides that, he makes a flat statement as his summary that is just wrong and only half-heartedly retracts it at the end. If he'd said "Most" or some similar qualifier up front, I wouldn't have an issue with it.

      2. Considering that this guy is, judging from the content of his post, very Microsoft-centered, for him to not know what Kerberos is suggests he is not even close to any kind of expertise in the field.

      Kerberos is not M$ invention. Actually they put a lot of efforts to modify it, so it can not easily interop with the other implementations.

      I'm well aware of that, having been around when the original kerfuffle about MS' broken implementatiuon of kerberos for Active Directory was going on. However, even though I knew absolutely nothing about AD then, I still knew that Kerberos was something to do with authentication. The author may be attempting to troll or be funny, but what he's accomplishing is to make himself look like a dilettante to a lot of people who know a lot about his subject.

      3. Such as? How could IMAP be better?...

      He says that IMAP has limitations. The whole article is about the limitations in the e-mail system, and the result should be a better collaboration system, without these limitations. It was never meant to suggest improvement in IMAP, etc.

      If he's going to write an article about the limitations of e-mail, he needs to do better than handwave the specifics. What he perceives as "limitations in IMAP" might be no more than limitations in how it is implemented in his mail client of choice. For example, many people here where I work use Outlook for IMAP. Unfortunately Outlook is a horrible, horrible IMAP client and consequently those users get the idea that IMAP is a non-user-friendly way to access your e-mail. The few I've managed to set up with Thunderbird from time to time, on the other hand, actively resist moving to Outlook because everything runs smoothly for them.

      4. Yes there is, because (say it with me!) E-MAIL IS NOT PRONE TO VIRUSES. E-MAIL CLIENTS ARE.

      This is only part of the problem. With the limited (if any widely used) ability to really authenticate the sender (say with me: EMAIL SPOOF), you can easily mislead the recipient to open a malicious file.

      E-mail sender authentication is not an issue. No, it's not. I promise. The issue is that people have this deep-seated tendency to trust whatever they're told. A guy calls me on the phone and says he's from my bank and he needs my social security number to verify my account: I don't care who he says he is, I hang up. People need to get used to the idea that just because it's on the screen doesn't mean it's real.

      Besides that, strong mechanisms exist to verify the sender's identity. People could use them right now, but they don't, because they're too cumbersome -- and they're not even really that cumbersome if you look at how they work. Public-key cryptography is pretty slick when it's done right.

      --
      -- Old Man Kensey
  22. And a good Collaboration Tool is.......? by ChaseTec · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm going to be starting on a spare-time open source project pretty soon and was wondering what people recommend for collaboration. The biggest project I worked on was the jboss portal server(previous version) and communication to developers(non-jboss employed at least) seemed to be mostly by email and forums. It was a little hard to know for sure if someone else was working on the same thing as me until a cvs commit. All the jboss guys I delt with were really helpful, but because of some of the reasons outlined in the article I kind of always wanted a better way...

    Thankfully the new project I'll be working will have 2 main developers in the same city so we'll actually have some sit down sessions but so far almost everything is in email. What are good collaboration practices(the article mostly just said email sucks)? For software I'm currently investigating gforge with the wiki plugin. Does the slashdot community like wikis for collaboration between developers on software development projects or something else? Does all this really get solved when you have a dedicated project manager? Should your collaboration tool also be your project management tool? Any good project management tools(esp. ones that combine collaboration software). Thanks!

    --
    My Hello World is 512 bytes. But it's also a valid Fat12 boot sector, Fat12 file reader, and Pmode routine.
    1. Re:And a good Collaboration Tool is.......? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For software development collaboration (i.e., source files, code review) there's Code Collaborator. There's also CodeStriker, which is free but also kind of sucks

    2. Re:And a good Collaboration Tool is.......? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a low amount of developers and a small project just chatting on IRC and email may be enough.

      If the project size rises you'll need some good design, so a wiki is in order ... or being able to meet in person - to write those design docs. Still an RCS and irc/email should be enoguh for avoiding conflicts since you'll want to design modular anyway.

      But when you start getting more and more devs and the project
      get's larger you should definetly try out http://www.edgewall.com/trac/ -- its a online project manager, where you create tickets for open tasks, and let devs choose these open tickets for closure.

  23. Article is full of lies by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Not surprisingly, for a PR puff piece, the article is full of lies. The most egregious is this one, though:
    If you are using SMTP (the universal pipe, remember?), you need to know that it doesn't encrypt data/messages.

    If you are using POP or IMAP, you need to know that they both require you to send unencrypted authentication (username/password).
    In fact, SMTP offers a number of secure alternatives, included TLS within an otherwise unencrypted pipe, or SMTP/SSL on port 463. POP and IMAP both support TLS for 110/143, as well as POP3S/IMAP4S over 995/993, and have not required plain-text login since the introduction of capabilities negotiation more than a decade ago -- both of them support a version of the AUTH verb. (To give you a sense of time, the relevant RFC's were published before Netscape developed SSL v1, back when sending creds over the wire in clear text was completely standard.)

    The guy's trying to sell something, but it would help if he could sell things without lying about them.
    1. Re:Article is full of lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, he's using Slashdot to get free advertisement and awareness about his company, Central Desktop.. which happens to offer a web based collaboration tool. My guess is that he's trying to generate some buzz and get potential buyers interested in acquiring his company. After all, Central Desktop is a recent start-up. So yeah, he's selling something.

    2. Re:Article is full of lies by zerocool^ · · Score: 2, Informative


      Not to mention you can send an unencrypted stream of encrypted data, i.e. PGP encrypt your email.

      --
      sig?
  24. LKML by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would be a perfect proof of email being a fine tool for collaboration. People have found innovative ways to *express* themselves _effectively_ using email. Most of the Linux kernel development happens over LKML and they haven't yet gone to find other effective ways of collaboration.

  25. Kerberos can't secure email from snooping by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 1

    Kerberos is an authentication protocol; it only allows hosts on a network to reliably determine one another's identity. It can't (by itself) prevent snooping if the message, or to prevent alteration of a message in transit. The only thing(s) that could reliably prevent snooping would be message level encryption/signatures.

    1. Re:Kerberos can't secure email from snooping by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      Yes, fine, true, but that's the important bit. You can send *anything* over ssl without even hardly trying. You need auth first.

      Doing ssl is easy. I suppose it was too much to assume that the previous poster already knew about that...

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
  26. My biggest problem with E-mail.. by Sqweegee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most senders I've received E-mails from assume I received and read the mail within 5 minutes of their sending it. Scheduling a meeting for 20 min after sending the mail notification is rediculous, or sending it right at the end of the workday (or later) and assuming I'm so eager to read it I access my work E-mail from home. If its that important PHONE ME! Just because you sit all day at your desk with your E-mail open doesn't mean I do, two way communication is the only way to confirm a message is received.

    1. Re:My biggest problem with E-mail.. by tomjen · · Score: 1

      Just an idea - decied on two times a day you will read email. Then when ever anyone send you an email have the program send an automated email back saying that you have recied their email but will not be reading it before such and such a time.

      Then they cant complain since you already told them.

      --
      Freedom or George Bush
    2. Re:My biggest problem with E-mail.. by bmalia · · Score: 1

      If you respond quicky all the time, it becomes an expectation. "Send Sqweegee an e-mail, he's always quick to respond!" My suggestion is to not respond quickly.

      I recieved an e-mail once from a VP saying he needed some data pulled for a meeting in 20 minutes. I didn't even read the thing until it was already an hour too late. He stops by my office now if he needs something done ASAP ;)

      --
      There's no place like ~/
    3. Re:My biggest problem with E-mail.. by BigCheese · · Score: 1

      Yes! Email is not IM. I make a point of not answering email too quickly just because of that.
      I also have Outlook set to never ring the new mail bell unless the mail is addressed only to me. That way I know there is something I ought to look at when I get a moment.

      --
      The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
    4. Re:My biggest problem with E-mail.. by NaDrew · · Score: 1
      Then when ever anyone send you an email have the program send an automated email back saying that you have recied their email but will not be reading it before such and such a time.
      And you can use all the time you've saved to start looking for a new job.
      --
      Vista:XPSP2::ME:98SE
  27. Not surprised by jalefkowit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Winston Churchill once said "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." You could say the same thing about email as a collaboration tool -- it sucks, but for the average user it sucks less than every other option.

    • IM? Most IM clients don't log messages by default, so things can't be easily searched or retrieved unless you know to turn on logging (assuming your client even allows that).
    • Wikis? Each wiki has its own arcane markup syntax, and the average user has better things to do than learn them.
    • Intranets? Somebody's gotta post stuff to the Intranet, or nobody will use it... and nobody wants to post stuff to an Intranet that nobody is using.
    • Web calendars? Slooooow.
    • Project management software? Using tools like Microsoft Project successfully requires a level of discipline and expertise that is beyond most people.
    • And none of the specialized services that have evolved to fill this niche (Basecamp, for example) have a mental model that's as easy to grasp as e-mail.

    None of these objections are so large that they can't be overcome; many people use the tools above successfully. But for the average user, who accepts defaults and isn't interested in learning a new skill just to organize a meeting, they all have flaws that outweigh the flaws of e-mail.

    I hate collaboration-by-email as much as the next guy, but until we can come up with something that is an order of magnitude better for the average user right out of the box, we shouldn't be surprised if they keep shooting e-mails around. (sigh)

    1. Re:Not surprised by cnerd2025 · · Score: 1

      You could say the same thing about email as a collaboration tool -- it sucks, but for the average user it sucks less than every other option.

      The Okham's Razor of technology: What about the good old-fashioned cork bulletin boards? :-D Maybe it should be Knuth's Razor (Prof. Donald Knuth is a vocal critic of email).

    2. Re:Not surprised by bec1948 · · Score: 1


      It seems that the issues discussed are resoved with some of the collaborative suites on the market. They're for business, not home use, but to a degree collaboration is a "work" thing.

      I'm familiar (through research and a bit of testing) with three of these suites: Oracle Collaborative Suite, MS Sharepoint and IBM Workplace. These all share certain similarities: They link messaging (e-mail, IM, Voice and in some cases FAX), document management, threaded discussions or forums, presense (where you are or whether and how you're connected) scheduling (calendars), web meetings and or teleconferencing, and so forth. Not every product has or supports every feature and they are mostly for larger organizations with deep pockets.

      It would seem that we're asking the wrong question. It's not which single program is best for collaboration. It should be: what sort of collaborative work environment will meet one's needs? With good integration between components, the environment should enable collaboration with all the different sorts of persons/roles that we encounter allowing each user the liberty to use the tools that best fit their needs while not limiting collaborative access beyond security and privacy contraints set by policy and users.

  28. HH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (Here Here!)

  29. Doesnt have to be true by illuminatedwax · · Score: 1
    Outside of fictional characters in Cryptonomicon, I'm not aware of anyone else using encrypted email and digital signatures.

    (Anyone using cryptographic e-mail is in the minority and the exception to the rule.)

    It doesn't have to be like this. My mother runs a counseling service and I installed gpg and a plugin for SquirrelMail - and now my mother, my father, and yes, my grandmother can easily send encrypted mail back and forth. And we have to, if we want to discuss clients over email and stay HIPAA compliant.

    Sysadmins, install gpg on your servers, and let everyone set up a key pair! It's ridiculously easy these days to install basic cryptography into email now. Thunderbird even has great plugins.
    --
    Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
  30. What about BCC? by bepolite · · Score: 1

    Why is BCC so bad? Because someone else makes a unilateral decision to make you a *secret* recipient of an email. I never know if it's ok to acknowledge that I got to email or do I have to play dumb if one of the *real* recipients talks to me about it.

    --
    Always be polite.
    1. Re:What about BCC? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      What?? You use BCC so every recipient doesn't have a To: list that's a mile long to distract from the email, and more importantly, to limit exposure to spambots searching through one of the recipients logs. BCC is also nice because it makes the email seem more personal. BTW, how can you tell when you are the recipient of a BCC anyway?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:What about BCC? by bepolite · · Score: 1

      It's a BCC if you're not on the To: or the CC: it may vary from client to client.

      --
      Always be polite.
    3. Re:What about BCC? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      I kind of assume that they would have just CC'd me if I was allowed to acknowledge that I received it to the other recipients.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    4. Re:What about BCC? by pedroloco · · Score: 1

      Why is BCC so bad? Because someone else makes a unilateral decision to make you a *secret* recipient of an email. I never know if it's ok to acknowledge that I got to email or do I have to play dumb if one of the *real* recipients talks to me about it.

      My rule about acknowledging being a recipient via BCC: I am under no obligation to play dumb if I was simply BCC'ed, and it is my right to use my judgement when to divulge that fact that I was BCC'ed. There may be reasons to keep my mouth shut about such emails altogether, but that's something that should be requested explicitly of me.

      Note that I am assuming trade secrets and national security secrets are not at stake.

    5. Re:What about BCC? by BigCheese · · Score: 1

      Sometimes BCC is just so you don't give away other peoples email addresses without their permission. That's rude. You should treat someones email address like a phone number. Get permission before giving it out.

      It gets especially bad when people forward interesting/funny/wierd messages and leave all the addresses on them.

      --
      The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
  31. Document revision needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  32. No Checks and Balances.. by Beefslaya · · Score: 1

    Other then DNS checks, or RBL lists...there is no effective way of providing proof that your mail server is who it is. Most sys admins and ISP's absolutely refuse to enforce these rules. So spam is a huge reason it's not good collaboration practice.

    I filter mail for several large businesses, including my work place. When discussing a blocked mail marked for them...they make it sound like you are breaking into thier bank account and stealing revenue directly from their business. Get real people.

    Email isn't a form of dependable communication in a business environment. It's only effective about 98% of the time. PICK UP THE PHONE AND CALL...Geez. Email is a great form of communication when you are enforcing the effectiveness of a phone call (meeting notes, etc.)

  33. One of the biggest mistakes by arrgster · · Score: 1

    And there are several, was that people should have never been allowed to save a document in their perspective mailboxes. Any documents should have been automatically saved in some form of folder on a file server.

  34. Low Priority Emails by charleste · · Score: 1

    Ironically, Apple sends out emails tagged appropriately as Low Priority. I get my ADC emails in Outlook with the blue down arrow :-)

  35. Mail is useless by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

    If you need collaboration use a web forum. If you need collaboaration on content creation use a wiki.
    Mail is for personal exchanges and is very primitive.Instant messaging/IRC/webchat already
    outdoes it by a wide margin.
    Only sites that insist on registration
    require email adresses for verification,
    or mere formality.Email is a thing of the past along with usenet.It will eventually be superseded by something like webmail integrated into forum or chat(private messages on forums already exhibit similar features,though they are different and lack several features of email,adressing schemes being one of them ).
      some future Metaforum with various integrated tools,will provide all services of the web(webpages(with separate format then threads),forum,p2p integration(a tracker),inter-forum mail(by a agrred upon scheme),web chat(a feature reduced,realtime text channell/thread),calendar,file database,and content management features(wiki,cvs,sql)).

    1. Re:Mail is useless by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Your style of writing

      reminds me

      of visual poetry

  36. Argh by Odin_Tiger · · Score: 1

    It's a good thing I don't have any karma to speak of, because I'm sure I'm about to burn a bit, but...
    "The only thing worse than one walled garden are many walled gardens."
    Why do people do things like this? It's confusing. And it's not hard to get it right. Didn't the author read this out loud before publishing it to tens or hundreds of thousands of people? It's not tricky, guy. The subject is 'thing'. 'Thing' is singular. So your verb also needs to be singular (is). How do you fuck this up?

    --
    Unpleasantries.
  37. Linux Kernel Mailing List by iabervon · · Score: 1

    I think the issue is mostly how people use email in collaboration situations, not the actual technology. This fact pretty much dooms other technologies to be no better; even people using the ideal collaboration software can (and will) sometimes send a personal email instead of using the tool.

    The solution is to train people in using the tool. On the linux-kernel mailing list, the policy is that you cc the list on any reply to a message on a list, and cc all recipients. If you violate this rule, people complain. This means that the whole discussion is archived and publicly searchable. It also means that everybody participating in the discussion gets a copy addressed to them of each message, and doesn't have to try to find messages that are part of the discussion in the huge volume of mailing list traffic.

    The whole point of the exercise is for thousands of people to edit a huge document (the kernel source) at the same time, and most of the changes go through email to the list, too. Here, the policy is to cc anyone who is likely interested (like the appropriate maintainer, if you want the change to actually stick).

    Of course, this requires people to set up their email appropriately; you ideally want to get your direct copies of messages in your inbox and all of the mailing list mail filtered out. But anyone on linux-kernel pretty much has to have their email set up cleverly, because the traffic is too high to deal with directly (I think the non-spam on there is higher traffic than most people's spam before filtering).

    About the only thing that would make it better would be if there was a URI scheme for message IDs, supported both by mail readers (which would take you to the message in that folder) and web browsers (which would take you to an online list archive you've chosen). Currently, it's a bit awkward to refer someone to an old message; what people do is use the URL for their favorite web archive, but that isn't convenient for responding by quoting portions of it, or if the recipient happens to hate the sender's favorite archive, or if recipients want to know if they've received it before.

    Of course, they're also a lot of hidden stuff: source code is a whole lot easier to do concurrent modifications on than office documents, because of tools like diff and patch and the use of filesystem structure within the document, as well as the compiler's support in cross-referencing things. So the collaborative editing task is a whole lot easier than word processing, which is stuck in the early 70s.

  38. about ballmer by AnXa · · Score: 1

    Steve Ballmer is CTO of Microsoft because it' is Microsoft. Somebody's got to take responsibility of becoming flop of Windows Vista... ;)

    --
    -Seeing the problem is ½ of solution-
  39. Email and Mail by intangible · · Score: 2, Informative

    Email is and should be recoginized and used for what it is, "Electronic Mail". Not "URGENT NEEDS A REPLY INSTANTLY"... NO! I do not check my email every five minutes, once or twice per day.

    If you need an instant reply, how about use something like "Instant Messaging", VOIP, a phone call, or come over in person?

    I really hate people who expect email to be almost the same thing as instant messaging. Email is a lower priority messaging system, it should not be used for something that you need an instant reply to.

  40. Reply to all by eraser.cpp · · Score: 1

    Most of the problems mentioned in the article are overcome by using "Reply to All" -- which is how e-mail collaboration has always worked in my experience. The only one I see it not solving are the security concerns, which can be overcome with authenticated SMTP and IMAP.

  41. Oh Poppycock! That's not the real problem. by raehl · · Score: 1

    Saying email is broken is like saying your screwdriver is broken because it won't drive nails into wood. The real problem is most people are stupid, and don't know how to select the right tool for the job. Since you seem to advocate that the phone is better than email, I submit that you are one of those people.

    Like many people on Slashdot, I work in a team of people. (Well, actually, I work in a couple different teams of people.) If I need to communicate with someone else, sometimes email is the right thing to do. Sometimes a phone call is the right thing to do. Sometimes it's best to walk down the hall and bang on their office door. I do some of each every single day.

    The biggest problem with phone calls or face-to-face meetings is that you are taking up a significant chunk of the other person's time and not allowing them to pick when that time is. If I need somebody to up a software rev on a system, or I need them to review a spec, or look at and comment on some code, there is no reason to waste 5-10 minutes of their time communicating this vocally when they can get the same information in a few seconds reading an email.

    The 2nd biggest problem with phone calls and face-to-face meetings is you can't have them if the other person isn't available. Maybe they went to lunch. Maybe they have another phone call. Maybe they don't wear deodorant. Email allows asynchronous, ageographical communication, and that's important.

    Which brings us to the bane of my existence: Voicemail. Any organization that has email service should get rid of their voicemail service for internal communication. Voicemail takes longer to get, it takes longer to listen to, and doesn't do anything for you that email doesn't.

  42. Do we need this... by Demerol · · Score: 1

    Do we really need an article to tell us that email is a poor collaboration tool?

    No.

    What's with all the useless articles on here these days. Makes me wanna just troll because I am so bored here otherwise.

  43. I use Slashdot to collaborate by From+A+Far+Away+Land · · Score: 1

    Slashdot is the best place to collaborate.
    The server is always up.
    Comments are never deleted.
    Good ideas are moderated up.
    And perfect strangers can contribute.
    It's not for the NSA to use for collaboration, but it does save them time when others use Slashdot instead of email.

  44. My initial theory on the summary by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    My initial theory on the summary was that it was trying to suggest that Steve Ballmer was CEO in name but CTO in action, but I don't know why anyone would want to suggest that.

  45. Vested interest? by john-da-luthrun · · Score: 2, Funny

    IMHO a simple improvement to email would be no more than twice a day delivery.

    Let me guess. You have stock in fax machine manufacturer?

  46. group email by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Group Email is Really Complicated

    I guess that's why there is no such thing as an internet email list...

  47. High priority always not by BroncoInCalifornia · · Score: 1

    Things sent with "High Priority" are almost always sent by an admin and are almost always about some silly bureaucratic thing. Why anyone things corporate goobledegook is important is beyond my understanding. Some exampels:
    -Everyone needs to take silly class to infuse us with some sort of "corporate culture".
    -It could be abot quarterly meeting where they tell us how well the company is doing. These meeting are so filled with spin as to be uniformative.

    The following things are sent with normal importance:
    -Customer X is having failures with our product and will stop buying if we do not fix it.
    -If we change Y in the manufacturing process we can easily improve yields by x% and save a few million dollars per year.

    A modest proposal. Let e-mail readers vote on if the "important" emails are important. If they are not important, the first several readers can "mod them down".

    --

    Religion is the main cause of atheism.

  48. Hands up!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hands up if you've sent an e-mail quickly and realised the tone of the e-mail makes it sound very hard and demanding?

    OK!!!1! i HAVE MY HANDS UP11!!! JUST POINT THE GUN AWAY!!!

  49. RFC delivery time?` by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This may be off-topic, but when I started using email I was told that it was guaranteed to be delivered or returned in 7 days. And indeed, when I had large files to deliver to a client (10M!) I would have to first break them into 1M pieces, and then mail everything off, each piece in a separate email, and then wait. For example, Monday afternoon I would start sending, and usually by Thursday morning it would complete, but once I had one message rejected on Sunday, 6 days later. Now we tend to check our email several times a day, because the expectation in the business world is that email will be received within 1/2 a day (4 hours). But if you're on a coding binge you may only check your mail a few times in a week, and your boss is thinking that you didn't get the email because you didn't respond. In my opinion it is the response latency that most people experience when they say that email is broken or unreliable.

  50. Why Email is Good: Accountability by patricksevenlee · · Score: 1
    Not sure if there are any finance type folks here or people who deal with finance types, but because of Sarbanes-Oxley, it's important to have anything to do with financial transactions in some kind of auditable trail. My job is at the management level and for reasons such as lawsuits, government checkups, Sarbanes Oxley, having the email trail is important (vs. "Yeah, I had a chat with Bob the Lawyer a few months ago and he said this..." - doesn't hold up very well in court or in a meeting with the executive team).

    But back to my main reason for liking email: accountability. A number of decisions I make for the two departments I manage, I get guidance from my legal counsel so if anything goes wrong and I get asked by the executive team what happened and whether I did my due diligence, I can go back to my email trail and show them that I consulted legal, brought up certain issues with executives. My having this has covered my rear end time and time again. To the point where if I am being asked to make a decision on an issue, I want it in email so that everthing is laid out and if anything goes wrong, I am 100% covered.

    1. Re:Why Email is Good: Accountability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      patrick,
      email accountability can easily be faked.
      Wiki's have good audit trails and are harder to fake.

  51. Re:Amen ??? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    IMHO a simple improvement to email would be no more than twice a day delivery.

    It is better to set the urgency of delivery T measured in time units by specifying when do you expect to get an answer.

    * If T exceeds threshold Th1, then e-mail is send at night.
    * If T is below threshold Th2, then e-mail is sent immediately.
    * If T is between these thresholds, it is sent in T/2 time units (not immediately).

    Recipient should know the urgency.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  52. What an odd article. by Escogido · · Score: 1

    It talks about why email is bad and doesn't take into consideration the simple fact that email is good because it closely imitates reality. That is the reason for what he calls a 'walled garden'; email only puts in 0s and 1s the way people communicate.

    While he has some valid points about such issues as email folders not being searchable, not being shared easily, not secure enough etc. his main argument seems to stay the same: the problem is that email makes us act in a bad, counter-productive way. My opinion is that this is where he is fundamentally wrong. It's all about that usability thingie, and usability is often about imitating what you would do in reality. Email is perhaps the most user-friendly service that Internet has, and thus is expected to be used by the people the way they would do similar things in reality.

    And most people around us are not geeks; they don't think in terms of 'how online collaboration should work'. (Not even all geeks do, either.) They most often have a vague comprehension of the fact that data shared by everyone is much more valuable than data that somebody has in private. So until people actually feel the need for a better collaboration engine, until they understand why it's better and how it makes them, their groups and companies more efficient at their tasks, email will stay the information medium of choice.

    I'm somewhat skeptical myself about the 40yos and 50yos being able to learn the new ways of handling information; it seems to me that at least a decade should pass before people en masse actually realize what email can and what email cannot do and move on to better collaboration tools, such as forums/wikis/whatnot. Until then, there's only so much we can do: work on the Web 2.0 and patiently wait until somebody puts the new toys to serious use and hopefully proves their efficiency. From that point on, as money starts talking, things get moving...

    Myself, with my projects I make heavy use of both the intranet forums and the IRC. I don't put much trust in IMs because they suffers from pretty much the same problems as e-mail does. However, only the young and open-minded are feeling themselves comfortable in this environment; even 30yos often have problems communicating online and there is almost no hope for those on the wrong side of 40 to adapt. Oh well.

  53. Missing the point? by nixkuroi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think this article misses the point of email entirely. Email is good for sending a message from one place to another. I don't think the originators of email saw it as a document management tool, a revision manager or any of the other hundred things people try to jam into it. It's amazing what people've been able to do with such a simple set of protocols, but it's kind of like complaining that your car doesn't make a good hot dog stand. Sure, you can sell hotdogs from it, and you can put buns in the glove compartment or paint it cool colors or advertise on it, but at the end of the day, it's a thing that gets you from point a to b.

    Blaming Microsoft because they've added things to make it possible to collaborate badly is just silly. They've just added a pink bun warmer to a honda civic. Extraneous and barely functional? Sure. Their fault this doesn't make it the perfect hot dog stand? Not really.

  54. Re:ObFamiyGuy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure who sounds dumber, the guy who wrote the Imelda Marcos reference in TFA or the guy who criticized him and used the phrase, "weakest link."

  55. E-mail integration as a collaboration tool by Acer500 · · Score: 1
    If nothing else, you need a document collaboration tool, to avoid this nightmare of multiple files, and email is not it.


    But it can be. I work for a company that develops a collaboration tool (amongs other stuff), and it uses a feature of Outlook that is sending an attachment by saving it into a SharePoint workspace (SharePoint is Microsoft's collaboration tool, they expect it to be a strong selling point of Office 2003 and beyond), that way every time someone opens it it's opened from the central workspace and edits are seen by everyone.

    The collaboration tool we sell adds e-mail search and catalogation too.

    So e-mail can potentially be adapted into a collaboration tool - I guess there must be an open source version of what I described hopefully.
    --
    There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
  56. Same problem with screw drivers.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oddly enough this anology applies to carpentry, screwdrivers are terrible at pounding in nails, therefore they have no use in the construction industry.

    -anon

  57. Missed the best part! by fanblade · · Score: 1

    The summary completely skimped on the best part of the article. The author cited a link when he mentioned how emails contain time wasting games!

  58. Wiki by smasm · · Score: 1

    I've just finished a university assignment with a classmate. We worked on http://www.jot.com/ where you can get a wiki. It was far easier than having emails flying between us, and easier than always trying to figure out which file was the latest. Instead, the latest work was on a private webpage, and I could see what she'd done since I last looked at it.

  59. Corporate IM and "awareness" by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    I used to do similar things, but then we got a corporate instant messenging system, and I think it's a much better solution for the problem you're describing.

    I only very rarely use the system to actually send messages to anyone, but we all use it constantly to see who's around and available. (You can set it to available, away, or "don't bother me", which is a nice addition to the standard available/away. In the third case it suppresses all incoming messages.)

    I don't find it intrusive, and it keeps people from dropping by my cube when I'm on the phone or otherwise occupied, assuming I've remembered to change my indicator appropriately.

    Frankly I think you could really just make a buddy list program without the instant messaging features and retain about 90 percent of the usefulness, at least in my situation (everyone in the same physical office, mostly).

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  60. Re:Oh Poppycock! That's not the real problem. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Any organization that has email service should get rid of their voicemail service for internal communication. Voicemail takes longer to get, it takes longer to listen to, and doesn't do anything for you that email doesn't.

    Thank you and Amen. I agree; the only thing that saves me from really, really hating voicemail (more than I have, since the advent of email), is that we now have a VM-to-email system that sends me voicemail messages as email attachments. It still requires me to waste my time listening to someone stammer away on the phone when I could have skimmed their message in a few seconds on my screen in text form, but it beats having to pick up the phone and spend several minutes navigating through the prompts to retrieve my messages.

    I understand there are some valid reasons for still having voicemail (people can send you one from anywhere, etc.) but they're rapidly dwindling as the number of places you can send email from grows.

    I guess the solution is not to eliminate it completely just yet, but really to impress upon people that it's a nonpreferred method of communication, and should only be used when absolutely necessary.

    Personally, part of my voicemail message is a warning that I don't check the system very often and that email is my preferred method of communication for anything sensitive.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  61. Re:Oh Poppycock! That's not the real problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's another thing about voice communication... it is HORRIBLE for sending certain types of information. URLs come to mind.

  62. Exchange Server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My boss is eager to get this piece of crap. Once we do we will be stuck using Outlook to organize things forever. Thus, the hunt is in earnest for affordable collaboration software to put on our server that is most compatible with our small business model before he finds the brochure.

    Eventually he is going to sober up you know.

    1. Re:Exchange Server by Allador · · Score: 1

      Exchange is reasonable as a mail server, and particularly for laptop users using Outlook 2003, you have one of the best online/offline/webmail combinations out there. Very compelling for laptop users who are mobile often.

      However, there is alot of movement against using Exchange as a document management or general purpose storage engine (ie, Public Folders).

      The preferred setup is to use Sharepoint in combination with Exchange and Office 2003. And to be honest, Sharepoint does a pretty good job at this, allowing deeply delegated administration, WYSIWYG editing of pages, plus you can write custom web parts to run on top of it if you're so inclined.

      And sharepoint is included with Windows 2003 Server, so you can just run it on the same machine as running your OWA for Exchange, and it wont cost you anything extra.

      If you're willing to deploy the full MS stack its pretty compelling, and the integration amongst the parts is very nice.

      There are also plenty of very reasonably priced consultants that will come in and do a one-time setup of Exchange plus Sharepoint, so that its well configured from the start. And at that point, the products are all very reliable, and pretty much just require the occasional patching (which windows will do for you if you want it to) and backups.

      If your boss is committed to Exchange, and you arent religiously against an MS stack, take a look at Sharepoint in addition to Exchange.

  63. Alternative - MUDs/MOOs by sirrmt · · Score: 1

    I wholeheartedly believe that online communities - be they social, technical, or business - are best served with tools that help build a sense of community. I believe there's a mostly forgotten but very effective tool - for several years now I've been part of a small MUD community. We're all technical people - some programmers, some not. None of us use the MUD for gameplaying, but rather for the social aspects. The ability to implement tools in code and give them physical characteristics through descriptions and interactive commands makes (eg. notes, loggers, rooms) adds another dimension to a space. Something that IRC, Instant Messaging, and certainly email lacks. The idea of being "present" with someone else in a room helps to develop personal relationships between participants. I've never had that with email or instant messaging, and have felt it with IRC, but it never lasts. Being able to exclude people from rooms, gag them, ignore them, or virtually stab them in the face and have them bleed for several hours are added benefits. The great "Web 2.0" collaboration doesn't quite meet expectations either, but it's aiming for something similar.

    Larger communities even have types of Governments and democracy. A well managed MUD can cope with many thousands of people. Look at LambdaMOO.

    A member of the MUD has used it as the primary point for collaborating development of a large software project, and it was quite effective. They didn't go so far as interfacing bug tracking (not that many developers & testers), but they could have.

    I could see a MUD being used in a multinational organisation to enable easy group collaboration and bonding. When I was working for a multinational in Europe, the American guys didn't feel like part of my team, no matter how many conference calls we shared. I think being able to be part of their musings in a less formal atmosphere would've made a big difference.

    The big problem with MUDs? If you're not careful, they can be time-wasters.

  64. disagree by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

    People communicate it's just a fact. by direct contact or by phone or by writing. If you think you cann't use email to colaborate then think again when the web was introduced java junk and asp fastfood came all over, money seeking people went to web services to write their own gadgets. For a great deal mimicing plain old conversations acka mail flow, the realy smart kids went back to their mail servers and wrote colaboration software on it. So at these environments you see a mail client open yeah.. only one app instead of having lot's of screens lots of databases lots of databases (out of sync) and all require a lot of IT overhead. The worse thing is just most people don't program against a mail server for workflow, because i think it requires a bit more knowledge, while creating a web page in a develpor environment is almost plain out of the box. Terrible because it result in hundred of company apps, which in large companies becomes a management nightmare.

    --
    I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
  65. Re:I don't know what happens where the author work by Clansman · · Score: 1

    "Where's the problem, again?"

    Well, it might be when you have 5 business analysts. The scenario you use implies only one silo, which is fine but not universal.